Slashdot Mirror
Sanitizing Expression In Virtual Worlds
1up has a piece looking back at the GLBT guild mixup that happened earlier this year in World of Warcraft. From the article: "'... last summer a friend introduced me to WOW, and I really liked it, though I didn't care for remarks many of the players made, like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad. So I decided to create my own guild, which would be GLBT friendly.' Sometimes singing, other times slogging her way through WOW's exacting echelons to a formidable level 60, Andrews had big endgame plans for her developing guild--until January 12, 2006, that is, when a note from publisher Blizzard blinkered everything."
Until January 12, 2006, that is, when a note from publisher Blizzard blinkered everything.
Yea I hate it when things blink . . . I always seem to blink things up . . . Oh yea, well blink you too.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
The issue with MMORPG's is that there is NO END, ever, to the game. You can literally play forever and the more time you put in the harder it is to quit because you have to acknowledge all the time you've wasted playing it. Blizzard has finally found a way to get people to end their addiction; homophobic account and guild deletions. :)
Now the GLBT community will can free of the burden of MMORPG addiction.
.. so what do you expect when you create a guild based on sexual activities? The same thing would happen to an S&M guild.
This is funny because I was talking about it only a year ago -- will we see private property rights exist in cyberspace?
I firmly believe that the ability to speak is a protected right directly protected by the right to personal property. I don't believe we need a government to protect our right to speech on our own land. I also believe we can censor whoever we want, as long as we're on our own land. Once we step onto their land, they have the power to control speech.
Most of the time the GLBT folks anger me because they want to introduce negative rights into the world -- forcing people how they have to act on their own land. I don't believe in negative rights (the ability to criminalize or penalize someone for their speech through government) because I believe it destroys property rights. If I want to sit around in my home, my restaurant, or my office and criticize whites, blacks, gays, straights, midgets, tall people, or geeks, it is my property and my right. If my customers don't like it, they'll go next door to the guy who ISN'T prejudiced. Heck, I even think you could have a "straight women additional fee" on food served if you really wanted to be an idiot.
That's the point of private property -- attract the customers you want to attract.
Now the GLBT folks are mad because they created their own private property, and the "big government" in the game said NO. This is even funnier now because the group that has historically been known to work against individual rights is now being hampered by their own policies.
I'm not anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-transgendered, but I am pro-freedom. I do believe that even in a game freedom is expressed by people who are not looking to harm another person's physical propery, and that when it comes to words, the old phrase is very appropriate:
Sticks and stones might break my bones,
but words will never hurt me.
So, there are people that play WoW that *aren't* homosexual? I don't believe it.
;)
Wasn't that the entire point of the guild--so that like-mindedly tolerant and accepting people could play a game together, without the crap from second-graders who think "gay" is a slur?
Bonsai Kitten: TNG
Sometimes singing? Andrews? Her?
"Stop that! Stop that! You're not going into a song while I'm here. Now listen, lass. In twenty levels, you're getting married to a girl whose Tauren father pwns the biggest tracts of open land in all of Kalimdor!"
If players would form/join guilds based on the player's skill or helpfulness or other such ways that directly affect gameplay, then we wouldn't be having this problem.
Ultimately, who cares? If people weren't such dicks and played the game without resorting to "omg u r a fag gtfo" then people wouldn't feel the need to make these guilds.
Of course, even then it wouldn't go away entirely, as people would form guilds just to try to be different.
My guild consists of men and women of differing ages, races, nationalities, and sexual orientations (really - I'm not joking), and we all have fun and just play the damn game. We don't care if one of our members is gay because IT DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't give you a stat bonus, it doesn't make you a better player, so who cares?
I say leave the politics out of the game and just HAVE FUN!
"Apparently so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times. Suppose one day, it lands on its edge."
Dick Haney: Look out Georgy! Terrorists!
Prezy-Dent: Oh no, protect me Dick Haney!
Dick Haney: Don't worry, I'll blow them up...
And on and on and on. Clear, OBVIOUS, greifing. They were out to do nothing about annoy people. That was within the first half-hour I played the game. If I'm going to play a MMO I want to play a MMO. I don't want nonsense (relative to the game world) about the president of the US, advertising for GLBT guilds, or anything else like that. The game is supposed to be escapist. You want to do all that stuff, go to second life (a sandbox) or invent a virtual world that is supposed to mirror the real world in many ways.
And I wouldn't care if everyone in your guild WAS GLBT. You could advertise yourself outside of WoW as the GLBT guild, but don't drag that kind of stuff into the game. p>While I understand how the person felt with all the "this is gay" (I got sick of it real fast and I'm straight, so I can see how they felt), there is no need to draw that into the game and start a GLBT guild. Just ignore those people, or report it to Blizzard and see if they'll give the person a warning.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
But its okay that this person has to have the rest of the WoW force their antigay agenda on her?
The GLBT does not for the most part work against individual rights. Some organizations like GLAD grab media time by protesting pop star (fill in the blank)'s new album that contains homophobic lyrics. But for the most part the GLBT community and esspecially the Radical Feminist movement which predates the modern GLBT rights movement are pro-consitutional rights, they just want them universalized.
Also it's incredibly demeaning and in a broader sense racist to tie fundamental human rights like freedom of speech to property rights. Does this mean people without wealth or property shouldn't have rights? If a space is open to public people but owned by a person do they have the right to restrict those rights within their owned space?
Your home is private property, but when you open your restaurant to the public, it becomes a 'public accomodation', and is not private property. This was an issue with a case against the Boy Scouts of America. They were sued because they discriminate against homosexuals. The courts ruled that the Boy Scouts were a private club, not a public accomodation, and that they were free to discriminate.
Some bars and restautants are also run as private clubs (playboy clubs (defunct), bottle clubs, etc). Most are public accomodations, with restricted 'property rights'.
Also, if you hire a person to work in your business, you are bound by labor laws. This includes not creating a 'hostile work environment' and other EEOC restrictions. If you don't like it, don't hire people in America.
Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
Good point. In fact, I've played WoW since Day 1, and I've never heard anyone say that something was "gay." Maybe it's because I chose an RP server in the hopes of finding more mature players, maybe not. Nonetheless, it seems suspicious that one would need to specifically form and market a guild as GLBT friendly guild simply to avoid bigotry. What would have made more sense would have been to start and guild, make it clear during recruiting that such language would not be tolerated, and go about one's business. Instead, the group seems to have raised the war flag and claiming discrimination, when in fact, WoW seems to deliver equal opportunity banning of guilds that talk about sexuxality. Americans have a soft spot when it comes to any sort of situation where a minority group may be being discriminated against, and there are some folks out there who are more than happy to exploit this to further their own aims and finances. Expect to see a lawsuit seeking damages within 6 months.
Of course, its still blizzards land, so you really can't say anything. You should take your speach somewhere else. Now in a game like second life where you buy land. I guess theoretically it would be a different legal standard wouldn't it?
I wonder how many people said that same thing when black people or women were fighting for their rights. It doesn't matter what the platform, until those rights are attained, no one should be "safe" from the message of those fighting for equality.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Our guild doesn't care if you're gay, straight, black, white, democrat, or republican. It just has no place it the game.
However, all the jews are losing 50 DKP tomorrow for killing our Lord and savior. Sorry, but if you nail the son of God to a 2x4, you're not going to get that epic chest piece.
As soon as I saw it had been tagged "gay" I rushed in to make this point.
Hysterical.
Math is math. Regular expression is regular expression. The tools are there. The future is now.
No one was forcing an 'agenda', they were just being impolite.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yet at the same time there were plenty of Christian guilds that were not targeted.
If they want to eliminate all guilds with messages from rl, thats fine. But they need to target everyone equally, not just certain ones.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
The only way to prevent those things from entering an escapist world is to have an escapist world consisting of only you yourself. The moment there's more than one person it becomes "people" and people bring their politics with them where-ever they go. You yourself are a perfect example. You brought your personal politics of avoiding supporting equal rights because you just wanna play a game.
Amazing self centeredness.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
In all seriousness, I don't want to deal with Christianity in an online game. /ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your Christian agenda on the rest of us.
That battle-axe swings both ways, to coin a phrase.
3D Printing Tips and Tricks at Zheng3.com
.... wait, how is having my own little gay club that you don't have to join 'forcing my gay agenda on you'?
I've gotcher 'Women In Gaming' RIGHT HERE!
By that logic, the "christian" guilds that have popped up should suffer the same fate.
I mean, if your going to argue that a gay guild is forcing a message on people simply by existing, then a religious guild is doing likewise. If it's unfair for the guild to allow/exclude membership based on RL factors, like being gay, then it's likewise unfair to restrict membership based on religion.
And if you take the opposite approach, which is to say that people can form guilds based on whatever criteria they like (excluding guilds that violate the game rules, like professional gold farming guilds and greifing guilds), then the gay guild is in the clear, as is the religious one.
I'd opt for the latter approach. As long as the people in the guild aren't making life difficult for the people outside of the guild, there should be no problem.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
And if someone calls something "cool", they're anti-hot? Perhaps it's just a colloquial saying anymore. I don't think of homosexuals when someone says something is "gay" any more than I think of ice when someone says something is "cool". I think it's just people manufacturing a perceived controversy because they see things one way, and everyone else doesn't give two shits.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I don't want nonsense (relative to the game world) about the president of the US, advertising for GLBT guilds, or anything else like that.
So; what sorts of guilds should be allowed to advertise?
If you don't want to deal with anything "like that", maybe you should stay away from MMOGs - because, you know, the whole point of an MMOG is to interact with a community of people, and some of those people might not be just like you. You are basically saying "everyone should want to play the game and interact with the community the way I want to". Maybe you should try single-player games? I hear Oblivion is good...
I firmly believe that the ability to speak is a protected right directly protected by the right to personal property. I don't believe we need a government to protect our right to speech on our own land.
Control over property does not give you absolute right of speech within its borders. To pull out the old Supreme Court analogy, by your logic, if you owned a theater, that would give you permission to attend a crowded performance, yell "Fire!" and watch the havoc unfold. That is absolutely ridiculous.
I also believe we can censor whoever we want, as long as we're on our own land.
Sure thing. I'll throw out another analogy. You are a restaurant owner who happens to actively dislike black people. You own the restaurant, and it is your "own land." Does it follow that you can "censor" - e.g., deny access, refuse service, etc. - black people from going to your restaurant? (Hint - read the 1964 Civil Rights Act.)
I'm not anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-transgendered, but I am pro-freedom.
Please understand that you being pro-freedom necessarily implies that other people have the right to enjoy their freedoms as well, such as freedom from your asshatted bigotry.
"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it." - G.B. Shaw
Now the GLBT folks are mad because they created their own private property, and the "big government" in the game said NO. This is even funnier now because the group that has historically been known to work against individual rights is now being hampered by their own policies.
Err, it's not that funny. I think for as much as they've "historically been known to work against individual rights" they've been more known to be working FOR individual rights, namely, that no one from "big government" to anyone else should dictate who they fall in love with or what kind of sex they choose to have and with whom.
Seriously, the person who complained about a guild listing itself as "GLBT-friendly" was being a total ass, and the complaint have been treated accordingly. These guys weren't looking to ban players who casually throw around term "that's so gay", just trying to politely and fairly discretely advertise their group in a coded language to other people who might feel likewise.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
You can turn off all the chat channels in the game. I leave them all off. That way I don't have to hear about Chuck Norris...and how gay he is.
Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket?
In order to be as you say you are, pro-freedom, you have to understand what freedom really is. You basically advocate personal anarchy with your views. And as I have explained to many anarchists and libertarians that when people have to be afraid in their everyday lives about certain sentiments negatively affecting them just because of the way they live their lives and when there is no governing authority to protect them...then they aren't truly free. Being free isn't about having the liberty to make someone's life a living hell by discriminating against them for their gender or sexuality.
Without authority and government and inscribed rights and rules and regulations limiting what others do, no one is truly free. Absolute freedom as you advocate for is nothing short of a world of living terror.
And lastly, one one can regulate your speech inside your own home so that was a strawman and you know it. Shame on you.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I would be interested to know if you be willing to express this opinion on behalf of groups you vigorously disagreed with? NAMBLA, Neo-Nazis, Klan, etc. Should a KKK group be allowed to recuit publicly on WoW so that they can then talk amonst themselves in guild chat about how much they hate other races? It's really no different in principle- any group that seeks to be exclusive to others could be found offensive by a paying customer not in that group.
And yes, it IS sexual harassment for a GLBT person to run around at work constantly talking about their sex life if they've been asked to stop. Why should it be any different in a MMORPG world?
Right. "Your ignore list is full." anyone? Just because you can ignore someone does not make their behavior acceptable or appropriate.
I am amazed by how much fuzz anything related to sexuality is generating. For crying out loud, you are playing a game in which the basic premise, like in most other games, is to kill and plunder. There are no moral problems with this because you are Good and they are Bad. But if someone say "gay", or starts an LBGT guild - then what an outrage. No more is the game good "family" entertainment, no indeed, it needs to be cleaned up, the little ones need to be protected.
Tor
New neighbor moves in across the street from Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith immediately detests this family, and wants them gone. He puts up a large sign in his yard that reads "To the Jones family: You are not welcome here. Get the fuck out of our neighborhood and go back to whatever cesspool you crawled out of." When their children are outside, he stands (on his own property, mind you,) and calls across the street to them, telling them that their parents are horrible, horrible people and that they're all going to have their fleshed burned off them in the sulfrous pits of hell. From his own land, he waggles his junk at Mrs. Jones when she comes home from shopping and invites her to perform oral sex on him while he tears her hair out. Mr Smith owns the land that Mr. Jones' employer has been leasing for the past twenty years; as a result, Mr. Smith refuses to let Mr. Jones set foot on his land, and Mr. Jones loses his job.
Should the Jones family have any recourse against Mr. Smith, other than to sell their home and move or go on living under the conditions he creates from his own property? Should Mr. Smith not be allowed to act the way he acts on his own property?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Your post is as confused as pudding. The article says this group wants to advertise their guild, i.e. they want free speech. The guild isn't demanding to restrict what anyone else can and can't say. They simply want to advertise "GLBT" without that being marked as "offensive." Apparently calling a groups of Orcs "fags" or "gay" is fine, but trying to form a guild through honest advertising is not. That's plain stupid and the owner of Blizzard has admitted as much.
I understand your point that Blizzard has a right to call their own shots about speech on what is "their land," but realistically, that's not how law operates and freedom of speech runs both ways in semi-public areas. The idiots can run around calling each other fags, and the real gays should be able to start their own guild without the interference of Blizzard's in-game police.
I finally understand. This is clearly a vast conspiracy of some SGO (sub-governmental organization) to slowly remove words from our vocabulary by making them offensive! First 'retarded', then 'gay'... who knows what word will be get you stared at next?
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Were you singing "The internet is for porn..."?
"I know this... this is a unix system" -- Jurrasic Park
The first point is the horrible usage of certain terms used in a derogatory fashion (ie. Gay, Retarted, etc..). This has gotten bad in today's society and is an unfortunate reality in the world today. Not just the World of Warcraft.
The second point is that the person starting the guild is upset because blizzard pointed out the fact that they are discriminating. Having a group that only allows members that are not gay, bi, or lesbian is equally as discriminating as having a group that explicitly denies members that are gay, bi, or lesbian. By restricting a set of members based solely on sexual preference, it is in fact being discriminating. I'm surpised someone who claims to be a member of an organization such as the GBLT would be so hypocritical and create a guild built on discirmination.
A better action for the person to take would have been to create a guild that was GBLT friendly. That way they will most likely avoid the actions of the first point, while avoiding the hypocracy/discrimination of the second point.
Also it's incredibly demeaning and in a broader sense racist to tie fundamental human rights like freedom of speech to property rights. Does this mean people without wealth or property shouldn't have rights? If a space is open to public people but owned by a person do they have the right to restrict those rights within their owned space?
There's the biggest problem with anarcho-capitalism today: there are so many reasons against it BECAUSE of other reasons against it, it would be hard to put into action without scrapping the lawbooks (which is exactly what we want, hah).
Property rights in an anarcho-capitalist world repudiate the idea of owning land and renting it to someone who is able to maintain the land and make it better with their own labor. Not all anarcho-capitalists believe in this "utopia" but it is something that I believe in. I don't believe that corporations can own land any more than I believe that any one individual could own thousands of acres of land and try to keep it maintained.
The idea of "property" is a huge debate and I'd rather not get into it here because of the usual "he's a troll!" comments that don't want to think about either side of the situation. I believe that in most countries, maybe all, there is enough land to be maintained, and owned, by every individual. I've been all over the world (every continent but Antarctica) and I've yet to see a country with truly minimal land. The big problem is either megacorporations licensed by the State own a lot, or the State itself owns a lot. I am against government owning ANY land, and I believe government would be better suited to be the renter rather than the owner.
In the long run, if someone can't find land close to work, they'll have to find land far from work. For an employer to get people to work, they'll either have to pay them enough to purchase land closer to work, or pay them enough to drive to work. With telecommunications, the issue of living in an urban environment is becoming less and less important. Broadband isn't available in many exurban areas, but that is another government issue: regulations preventing people from running wires where they want.
Again, it is a very intense debate with MANY issues to overcome. Nonetheless, I do believe that a person "renting" land should be able to own the land, and just rent the home (or mortgage it). It is very hard to piece through all the various regulations and paternalism that occurs today that prevents capitalism from taking hold, instead it is replaced by mercantilism that masks itself as a free market.
Don't fool yourself with this circular logic, the majority rules in economy and if people start to get 'turned off' WoW for some reason, Blizzard will try to eliminate it.
I, personally, game to escape the 'real world' and I don't like mixing the two. Why would I want to have the socio-political agenda of other players invade my gaming sphere? If this becomes too much of a hassle for other gamers, (ie. can't use normal/preferred expressions), it too will die.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to govern any other" -John Ada
Minorities that aren't gay maybe. These same people who claim tolerance do a 180 when it becomes a gay thing. And for each person who has some sign of carrying about minorities there are probably at least 2 (well maybe 1.5) people who have no care at all. Racism and bigotry are alive and well in America, it just has taken on some new names and new victims.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Not much to say other than they treat themselves as a public accomodation when they feel like it (such as, utilizing our tax dollars to support the groups) and as a private club when they want to (creating environments of intolerance and the like)
Pretty interesting show, particularly the Mormons "hijacking" the BSA in the 70s.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
So why stop now?
/ignore list back to Ultima4.
Chuck Norris will round house kick your
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I mean, WoW isn't that great, it's way less realistic than say Sims 2, where noone cares what your romantic gender preference is, or even if you're half-alien for that matter.
I'm sorry, but I'm far more worried about the racial slurs I keep hearing whenever I try to play a Blizzard game, and the anti-gay slurs as well.
Just because some people don't swear a lot - which I stopped doing before I made Sergeant in the Army - some people make assumptions about them that are totally lame.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
No, but it also doesn't mean they can't act that way.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
1. Yes I do believe those groups you mention should be able to express themselves fully. I completely believe in the First Amendment and while I may not agree with what you have to say I will defend to the death your right to say it.
2. The way some people talk, merely stating one is gay is somehow "talking about their sex life". I could understand if you were talking about someone going around the office saying they just put their cock into someone else but if they are just relaying a state of being, that they are in fact gay, then no that is not discussing their sex life. Thats stating their sexuality. And for the record everyone is assumed to be straight until otherwise informed so everyone is already radiating their sexuality. To say that gay people can't correct people in their personal sphere's of contact is ludicris. Then again I could have misread you. You are not saying that someone merely telling you that they are gay and only that is talking about their sex life are you?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I think it's just people manufacturing a perceived controversy because they see things one way, and everyone else doesn't give two shits.
Perhaps it's because everyone else won't get beaten to death and chained to a fencepost, and then have their funeral picketed by lunatics just for being who they are.
Maybe that's why they see this as controversial.
3D Printing Tips and Tricks at Zheng3.com
she chose to play the game. it's not like blizzard forced her to cough up her credit card to play the game.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
Is it wrong of me to not care about the civil rights issue, but instead that she's one very cute nerd!
The problem here is not about free speech, free speech is only free in public, in private you have to obide by what the owners of the private area tell you.
The problem is that Blizzard does not correctly enforce their own policies. This person wanted to create a non-hostile environment for people that get offended by terms like 'man thats gay', or 'shut up fag'. Blizzard's own policies go against that type of speech in the first place, but it would seem impossible to effectivly enforce somthing like that on such a large scale. So instead of reporting every single person that made an offensive comment, why not create a guild that does not allow people to talk in a non-discrimanatory matter, which is what this person tried to do. Blizzard then shuts her down, even though the guild she was creating was in effect trying to do exactly what their policies say.
Blizzard is clearly in the 'morally wrong' here, but not the 'legal wrong'. They are allowed to do what they want in their own 'private club', but they should expect a public backlash when they single out people for trying to create a non-hostile environment in what they perceive as a hostile one.
... Do they roll for need? Greed? Better matches the color of their boots?
Only guilds where you'll see a lvl 60 toting a lvl 20 staff 'cuz it looks cuter.'
I kid.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
However, gay is used in a negative connotation. It does not matter that you are not actively thinking that "This story wants to have intimate relations with a story of the same gender." When you do come across an individual that is actually homosexual, you will most likely have a negative impression of this person, in part because you use a term that they identify with, and you use it negatively.
This is one of the only things you've said that I thought had a grain of sense.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Gay.
/ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your nigger agenda on the rest of us."
Denotation: Happy. Loose or lewd.
Connotation: Homosexual.
So if you use a word which is widely used to label homosexuals, and then use it in the context which means bad, well, you're changing the meaning of the word, and building up an association.
Negroid means having characteristics of a negro. The was slanged up into the form known as nigger.
nigger \nig"ger\, n.
A negro; -- in vulgar derision or depreciation. It is usually
intended and interpreted as highly insulting and vulgar.
So if "gay" is intended or interpreted as highly insulting and vulgar, why is gay more acceptable to use in that way than nigger?
"
If you turn a blind eye to ignorance, you let it grow. Showing these people who seem to think it's acceptable, that such vulgarities are not cool or acceptable, is the perfect response. Do not tollate intellorance, no matter how people will dress it up.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Opinions about bringing sociopolitical et al. issues into WoW aside, I think the last thing that needs to happen is to have this sent to court.
To have some U.S. court decide what kind of speech is or is not acceptable in privately-run MMORPGs is counterproductive. I don't think it's the kind of thing a court needs to arbitrate, as much as individual game companies do, with customers deciding that if being able to mention Christians, GLBTers, or Bull Moose party members is of paramount importance for the enjoyment of an MMORPG, then 1) It would seem then that the quality of the game is secondary anyway, so 2) they can take their cash and their time to some other game.
And yes, we can crow as idealists about free-as-in-speech and about how this applies, but if the notion of GLBT guild-theming went to court under the challenge of free speech, I bet that no matter the outcome, the vulgar nature of the chat channels would be next.
Then do you know what would happen? Enter a big mess, as legislators take notice of kids above the age of 13 exposed to areas where profanity and sexually suggestive material runs absolutely rampant, "won't somebody save the children" and before we know it, we're force-fed a bunch of new regulations for "open" chat channels that had once been so gleefully populated by homophobes, misogynists, and decent people.
I agree that subscriber action is the best action for situations like this, and that getting courts involved is going to open a can of worms that would make a great big PITA for MMORPGs and MMORPGers.
___ In the words of Gen. Douglas McArthur: "I'll be right back."
Ah, how I wish there was a mod for '-1, Falsehood.'
The person in question was trying to make a "GBLT-friendly" guild where insults like "this is so gay" would not be tolerated. "GBLT-friendly" is not the same thing as "GBLT-only," or "straight-only," for that matter. The most former admits and accepts straight people. The two latter examples do not.
Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
I just fail to see an agenda. Are they making you join? Are they forcing you to be gay? Are they forcing you to associate with homosexuals? No, they're not. You don't have to even acknowledge the fact that they've formed an organization (which you don't have to join or associate with in any way) and if you want, you can ignore it altogether! I'm sure they rather you did.
But would you rather say that you're offended by the mere existence of homosexuality? Get over it. Like Werbach's quote from TFA, "With over 5 million users, WOW is the size of Chicago. And like Chicago, it has homosexuals, homophobes, and everything in between."
Get back to me when you're forced to associate with people you don't like.
I have no desire to discuss sexual preferences or anything else of a personal nature in an online game. Is that a bad thing? Am I the only one? If you don't tell me, I won't know. If you want to discuss your sexual preferences, there are plenty of appropriate services to do that. An mmorpg is not one of them. By the way, as a matter of equality, could somone advertise a "heterosexual friendly" guild? If not, you've set a double standard.
If someone wants to make a private, enclosed community that's non-discriminatory ("GBLT-friendly" != "GBLT-only,") then why not let them? Why all of the backlash from some /. posters? I thought we were better than this.
Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
So which side are you arguing? It sounds like both to me. Both the LGBT-friendly guild and the idiots spamming "u r gay" in the barrens all day are both intruding with a "message" into everyone else's gameplay.
So are the folks bitching about the "chinese gold farmers", the "twinks in the 10-19 bg" and everything else.
Your speech in game is (probably) a reflection of the cultural norms that you grew up with/live in. Sure, some people are actually role-playing, but most people on those games aren't. Their character is them, they are their character. Doesn't matter that the toon looks like a bull standing on two legs, it talks like an American (or Canadian, or $European_Country, or otherise). How many names are really appropriate to the character they are on? Is the game world even developed thouroughly enough to have such ideas?
I guess my point is: unless you want the policy fairly enforced, and want to pay for Blizzard to have enough CSR folks to deal with every 15 year old who's decided that anything he doesn't like "iz ghey" or however it is being mispelled these days, you can't throw stones at the LGBT folks recruiting. Nor can you throw stones against a pro- or anti- twink guild, and that's a much more concrete, in-game thing.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
Here's the approved guilds:
1) OMG PONIES!!!111!
2) Fans of Mayo on WonderBread Sammiches
3) The Ned Flanders Association of People Who Enjoy Non-threatening Fun
4) Hail Training Wheels!
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken
Okay, I've never played WoW, or any other massive RPG (discounting DiabloII, if one wants to consider it an MMORPG--I don't)... But I would have chortled at that one. I mean, unless you're a terrorist, that aught to be at least a teeny bit funny. It might be a little annoying if they kept it up for more than five minutes, but then again, I still find some comedic value in old slashdot cliches.
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Expecting members to be friendly towards GLBT is not discriminating. It's recognizing that some of the members of the guild are somewhere on that spectrum, and asking that you be understanding and not an asshole towards them. Conservatevely, 1/10th of the population is *somewhere* on that spectrum, so it's not unreasonable to expect that some of them will play video games, and it's most certainly not discrimination to create an environment where they can feel free to express themselves without fear of repercussions.
You probably don't realize just how prevalent it is, but there seems to be an overwhelming majority in video games who think that words like "gay" and "fag" are perfectly acceptable insults for somebody you don't like. It doesn't exactly create a comfortable environment for people who are queer, and having a guild like this is a good thing.
Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, a GLBT-friendly guild doesn't mean you have to be queer to join. It just means you have to not be an asshole.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
I think it's fair to say that there are WOW male players whose avatars are female, and vice versa. Some of these roleplay. What if someone wanted to roleplay as a gay character? Is that not allowed, and why not? The article mentions that there have been gay MMORPGers for years and they've dealt with this shit, mainly by ignoring it and having a good time anyway - however, they shouldn't have to ignore it. What's wrong with them wanting to belond to an organization where they know they won't have to endure insulting language coming from their supposed 'mates'? Using the word gay as a pejorative is widespread; trolls use it, I occasionally use it and you might use it as well. It's almost impossible not to blurt it out if you grew up in the American education system where it's as entrenched as tater tots and pop quizzes. I understand that. It goes beyond 'just' the word gay, however; it's a seemingly unending wave of dialogue that can only be described as "homophobic" at best and "hate speech" at worst. The argument that it should be kept out of the game because this is supposed to be entertainment is invalid; if game only dialogue were allowed then there'd just be the raid leader screaming and everyone bickering over loot. The fact is that our everyday lives creep into this game as part of the natural draw of MMORPGs: social interaction, not isolation. If you want to keep it game only then don't allow for any player-to-player communication or play Elder Scrolls. Reading any guild's message board will lead you to the conclusion that people enjoy interacting on all levels: WOW has become a big part of some of these people's lives and the mixing of personal and "WOW" life is pretty common from what I've seen. It's silly to say that discussion of one's sexual orientation in a non-insulting manner is not allowed. It's even sillier to say that discussion of one's personal life ought to be left outside of the game, because then you'd have to ban sob stories of boy/girlfriends and bitching about the domestic situation and that's not gonna happen. Just as marriage doesn't seem to be a very sacred institution in America, WOW is permeated throughout with the often banal, sometimes amusing and always personal accounts of one's real life. Why limit that to heterosexuals? Shouldn't gay men and women, and the transgendered, and whatever other group you want to throw in there be just as miserable as the rest of us? Finally, to address that tired old issue: it's a GLBT friendly guild, not a GLBT only guild.
I detected no asshatted bigotry in his statement. You are projecting an attitude on him that's extremely negative when his actual statements were much less negative. This is an ad-hominem attack and is a debating technique to use when you don't have anything more solid.
Also, hauling out the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a defense is kind of silly, because the original poster would probably site that as an example of a broken law. That basically represents an argument by appealing to authority, and is also a debating technique to use when you have no solid facts or reasoning to back you up.
Lastly, your "Fire!" statement, while peripherally addressing the argument, fails to come at it head on. That particular rule could be summarized as "When you say something that you have a reasonable expectation will result in immediate harm to others, that is no longer covered by the first ammendment.". So, if he lead a lynch mob on his property, he could be convicted of murder even though the event is only related to his words and he took no part in any actual kidnapping, beating or murder of the victim.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
You brought your personal politics of avoiding supporting equal rights because you just wanna play a game.
Equal rights? Come on now. Do you see guilds/factions outright proclaming their heterosexualness out there?
I'm not against the GLBT but the GP has a point. When you go into these games, you want them to be just that, GAMES.
Bullish Machine Tzar
I would be interested to know if you be willing to express this opinion on behalf of groups you vigorously disagreed with? NAMBLA, Neo-Nazis, Klan, etc. Should a KKK group be allowed to recuit publicly on WoW so that they can then talk amonst themselves in guild chat about how much they hate other races? It's really no different in principle- any group that seeks to be exclusive to others could be found offensive by a paying customer not in that group.
Um, that's a nice strawman. Those groups (KKK, NAMBLA, neo-Nazis) tend to encourage and/or participate in illegal behaviour. A GLBT-friendly guild isn't going to be discussing destroying heterosexuals.
And yes, it IS sexual harassment for a GLBT person to run around at work constantly talking about their sex life if they've been asked to stop. Why should it be any different in a MMORPG world?
Another strawman. "I'm recruiting for my GLBT-friendly guild" is not talking about one's sex life.
hooked up funny
It is a civil matter. They can sue.
Other than indecent exposure (still civil, iirc) though I'm not sure anything is technically "wrong". In bad taste, but not against the law. That's the way it is supposed to be though. You have the freedom to express yourself through appropriate channels
I wonder how many people said that same thing when black people or women were fighting for their rights. It doesn't matter what the platform, until those rights are attained, no one should be "safe" from the message of those fighting for equality.
Dude, it's a game. Rights aren't necessary or granted in the virtual world that is owned by these corporations. Either get over the fact that you can't sludge your real world problems into the game or don't play at all.
I'm going to start an Anti-GLBT guild. You think my guild should be allowed?
Bullish Machine Tzar
This is a small jump away from having a ban on a Monastary Guild. Personally i would think that unless you are by definition a "hostile" guild (ie vampire , Nazi , TSCOG or KKK) it should be allowed (after factoring in PvP regs and such). heck i think i would like to see a set of G/L races in one of these MMORPGs.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Well, the article says that "everything" in WOW is apparently gay. So I'd say that there's an overwhelming majority of people using it and not caring, because I can virtually guarantee you that almost none of those references are actually meant in a derogatory-to-homosexuals connotation. Unless you know, PrinceWanksALot getting an epic mount before CharlizeTheronIsHot is in actuality a homosexual thing.
Nice try though.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I'll preface this with IANAH (I am not a homophobe) & have a few gay / bisexual friends.
"1. Yes I do believe those groups you mention should be able to express themselves fully. I completely believe in the First Amendment and while I may not agree with what you have to say I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Blizzard =| the US government
Think of them as the Boy Scouts. They can tell you if they want you there or not. They reserve the right to refuse service for any reason. Don't like it? Vote with your dollars, they could care less about your words.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Could someone start a GBLT hatefull guild? is not, that IS a double standard.
I perfer GEBLT:
Green Eggs, Bacon, Lettuce, and Tomato
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Blizzard, by the way, (and this may change but I doubt it will) does not generally police channel speech, and GMs are incredibly slow to respond to even extremely outrageous actions. So "report people using the word gay" is hardly a reasonable answer. Actively attempting to create an environment that is more friendly is a totally acceptable reaction. I've belonged to a guild were were didn't allow trash talk or l33t speak on guild channel. Thats more or less the same thing as the guild in TFA was doing.
It is assumed that everyone is heterosexual by default. Its what non-gay acting people or straight acting people radiate, which means most of the population. The very reason why you don't notice it is because it is so prevalaent. So yes, every non-explicitly gay guild out there IS proclaiming their heterosexualness and there's nothing wrong with that. The gay guild is just trying to do the same thing, the only problem here is that people can notice them because and only because they ARE different. And because they can now spot them out in the crowd that is the WoW userbase, they (some people not all, just the homophobes and or the politically fatigued) don't want to have to deal with them.
Also this isn't just a game. Its a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. So you have a lot of people, with all their inherent issues and personal foibles, and you have role playing. Thats two ins for any issue right there. The only way to avoid them is to not play a game involving other humans.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Even as a private owner, if you are a Public Accomendation certia rules apply t o you.
I would even say they were not morally wrong. Just enforcing a rule. If I had been starting a GBLT hatefull group, I am sure I woul;d have been banned for a couple of days. I am also sure they wouldn't change there stance like they did with this person.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There is no different between abhorrence of sex between two men or two women and abhorrence of sex between a white person and a black person.
That makes you a racist! Yay!
+++ATH0
So what happens when the "Jesus Freaks" guild attacks the "Rainbow Guild"? If it was the "Black Dragons" attacking the "Iron Tigers" or something like that, the Iron Tigers would understand it is a game and all in fun. But are the "Rainbow Guild" going to complain that they are being discriminated against by the "Jesus Freaks" guild? What happens if the "Bowman of Allah" attack and kill the "Jesus Freaks"? Are the "Jesus Freaks" gonna get in a big huff and cry about it? What happens when the "Republican Ogre League" attacks the "Democrat Swordsmen"? Doesn't anyone see how the whole thing could become a mess really quick?
It is not discriminating against anyone to not allow real world affiliations in a game. Because a game involves violence, you want the victims and perpetrators of violence to be completly fictional groups. If you have real life affiliations like Sex, Race, Religion, Sexual Preference, and it is going to cause all kinds of problems.
I realize that nowadays, politically correct posturing trumps common sense, and so people are going to cry that they are being discriminated against because they can't create a Gay, Bi, Lesbian, Transexual clan... and the threats of lawsuits will probably give them their way. But demanding to be allowed to make a GLBT guild, when all other real world affiliations are banned, is just stupid. GLBT are not discriminated from playing the game, or from starting clans, but they are (or where) banned from bringing real world issues into a totally fantasy escapist game.
Happy has a positive denotation, I don't think all homosexual people are happy and don't automatically have a positive opinion of any 'gay' person.
While I don't use 'gay' to mean 'uncool' or 'crappy' it doesn't have the impact you think it does. Words with multiple definitions do not automatically tie those definitions together.
Vermifax
Logout
here is a general rule of thumb: Anyone can take offence at Anything Anyone says or does.
humans are like that. one person could take offence that there is not GBLT friendly guilds and want something done about it... why should we only cater to one set of whiners needs? what if someone takes offence at a GBLT friendly guild? what do we do about them? how do we make everyone happy?
do we disregard the people who find the GBLT friendly guild offencive and call them biggots? or do we disregard the people who find the lack of GBLT friendly guilds offencive and call them biggots? favoring one thing over another and calling all those who oppose "evil" makes you just as "evil" as they. what people dont understand is that good and evil is not absolute... its relative (to the side you are on).
insults are only insults when they are precieved as one. noone else can MAKE you feel anything, the only person in the universe that can MAKE you feel a certian way is you.
flame me all you want, the only one who is going to care is you.
next time someone says something is gay, say "no, thats hetero!" now you both sound like an idiot and who cares what an idiot says?
*whew* (deep breath) and.... relax.
-ManJerk
-Boycot shampoo! demand real poo!
The real problem pointed out by the article is that Blizzard was being capricious and inconsistent with its approach to "Harrassment--Sexual Discrimination." There's certainly nothing discriminatory about typing the letters LGBT in a public forum (even a privately mediated one like channels in WoW). If someone thinks that it is discrimination to type those letters, well, then they need to get a life. People who are LGBT certainly wouldn't think so. Why should anyone else?
It seems that guilds are precisely the place to support specific groups with specific interests. If you have a gay guild or a christian guild or a cheese-lovers guild the great benefit is that you can easily speak to all your guildies about the interest you share and you don't clog up the public channels with your own interests. All guilds need to be able to recruit though. That is the best way to help everyone find associations that work for them.
Ok, back to building up my Rogue's lockpicking skills...
Wow, that response was so straight.
Can all fish swim?
"players may not transmit or post any content or language which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard Entertainment, is deemed to be offensive,"
What part of that is unclear? Don't like it? Don't give them your money.
You call it censorship? I call it freedom of association.
Personally, I disagree with Blizzard's decision to cave in to the PC police. But you know what? If I *really* didn't like it, I could quit. So I can't say much beyond that, can I? It's their game, they made a business decision (the cost in lost memberships for allowing the practice is, in their opinion LESS THAN the cost of banning it).
-Styopa
...and I could wander down my local high-street slaughtering everyone I saw. Or maybe highjack a plane and fly it into the Whitehouse.
Doesn't mean I should...
Ignorance is not an excuse.
>>Maybe they would like to forget about all the
>>political crap-ola with which we are inundated
>>constantly in our activist-infested world for a
>>change, and just go somewhere where they don't
>>have to think about it.
You want freedom from responsibility -- a one-sided world where you can say whatever you want about anyone and not have them react. You can do that if you are in a group who shares your beliefs, but when you're in mixed public, the civic rules of society apply. The general world of MMORPG is an open forum with lots of diverse people, not just people who like hearing "fag" equated with "bad". If you want a more closed world, create a guild or find another outlet.
If you're straight you probably don't mind hearing "ha ha, dude you got nuked, you are so gay". If you're white, you may not mind hearing "ha ha, dude, you're as dumb as a nigger". (Although whites are MUCH more sensitive to racial prejudice than homophobia.) If you're gay or black or whatever, hearing these kind of casual insults stands out every time and is a slap in the face. You can either choose to suppress your emotions, or deal with them and speak up, or avoid them, e.g. creating a GLBT guild. Just because you may want to insult someone does not mean they have to take it.
It is assumed that everyone is heterosexual by default. Its what non-gay acting people or straight acting people radiate, which means most of the population. The very reason why you don't notice it is because it is so prevalaent. So yes, every non-explicitly gay guild out there IS proclaiming their heterosexualness and there's nothing wrong with that.
You might assume that. I sure don't. When I'm in the game, I don't care. It's not like I'm hitting on girlies or anything. I'm there to escape the real world bull not jump into some more.
Also this isn't just a game. Its a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is a game and if anyone thinks otherwise, I recommend blizzard doing something about that. People pay them for entertainment, not to be harrassed, bombarded, or in any way drug into the sludge of the normal day.
You wat to be gay? Fine. Why do you have to announce that in a game where odds are you'll never even meet any of these people?
Bullish Machine Tzar
Do you see guilds/factions outright proclaming their heterosexualness out there?
All the time. They're the guys screaming "gay" "fags" etc every 10 seconds. The majority makes their declaration by demonstration.
Only minority groups have to make explicit declarations, in order to notify potential members that they are different from the masses. This works as both an advertisement and a warning.
~Rebecca
...all cock-blockery aside...
True freedom can only be exercised by all when it is defined as "Freedom to do what you like as long as it does not restrict or limit the freedom of others."
Otherwise it is not freedom, it is oppression.
This is how the loudness war is killing music.
Well, except for the part about tearing her hair out. That's assault, and is a criminal matter, for which Mr. Smith can be arrested and thrown in jail for a long time.
Up until he got to the "waggles his junk at" bit, everything that had been done would have perfectly legal (although in very bad taste) in the United States.
However, the assault part is definitely illegal, and I would consult a lawyer on the issue of discrimination in who Mr. Smith leases to, as it at best a legal gray area (but almost certainly illegal).
Loose things are easy to lose. You're getting your hair cut. They're going there to see their aunt.
Substitute your use of the word 'cool' for any of the following:
Black. Chinese. Spanish. Polish. Korean. Mexican. Jewish.
Now substitute any of the known racial epithets for those groups where appropriate. You could not legitimately use any of those epithets and think it's completely innocent.
Just because you're either too ignorant (or too busy not giving a shit) to realize there is really one expected meaning for that word, doesn't mean you can freely use it without pissing people off. The strong implication seems to be that gay == bad, therefore we can use it to mean bad without thinking about what we're actually saying -- I didn't mean it like *that*.
While I could use the somewhat out of use word niggardly to mean
I would ignore how it could be interpreted at my own peril. And while popular culture seems to have far to many white-boys saying *cough* nizzle *cough*, I also make it a point not to do the same myself. Because I find it to be a really offensive word.
Pretending that saying something is "so gay" isn't saying what you claim it isn't is just silly. Like I said, replace that for any racial epithet and you might see what I'm talking about.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
There are parts of the country where soda is referred to as 'pop' but that doesn't mean people are asking you for a grandparent or a punch in the jaw when they say "give me a pop". In the same way in my encounters with people saying "that's totally gay" they don't mean "that's totally homosexual" or "I hate that in the same way I hate homosexuals" they in fact mean it as "that's totally stupid/absurd/odd". It is an ALTERNATE SLANG MEANING that has been appropriated by a subset of the culture, just as homosexuals and society re-appropriated the word 'gay' itself about a generation or two ago.
In New England we say 'wicked' to mean 'very', e.g. "The new console is wicked cool". However in this usage it has nothing to do with being evil. In some places in NY people use 'mad' the same way New Englanders use wicked, but they don't mean angry in any way. A word can have two different and unrelated meanings!
To be offended by an alternate use of a word you happen to associate with is silly when it's patently not being used offensively. Could it be used offensively? Has it been? Yes. But this is not one of those examples. And in the case of the word gay itself the argument even becomes hypocrtical since gay already had a different meaning which has been appropriated by today's culture to mean something completely different. Language evolves, and slang is simply a genetic mutation of language, often here today gone tomorrow. If you can't get over that then you're taking yourself way too seriously and need to find a better battle to fight.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
What, exactly, is the "gay agenda" again? I keep forgetting. Wasn't it something about not being treated as second-class citizens for being gay? Yes, they have absolutely no right to insist that we treat like human beings. Or do you mean another agenda, like their plot to take over the world and force all the rest of us to be gay too?
Married het female, if you're wondering. I'm wondering how a comment about with the words gay agenda got modded up. That smacks of anti-gay paranoia.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
Where does using a word stop being funny and become hate speech? In the context of the replies here the phrase, "That is sooo gaayyy" merely tries to bring levity to what could be a flame-rife topic. But saying to a complete stranger, "that faggot stole my (insert cool WOW item here)" or "That armor is gay" is offensive. There are far more effective ways of conveying how lame a thing is without going out of your way to offend (such as, "you are a jackass" or "that armor was forged in the fires of useless, just like you").
Calling things "gay" and people "faggot" is just freaking retarded...</sarcasm>
No animals were harmed in the making of this sig.
Well, there was that one puppy, but he is all better now.
Keep your politics, religion, sexual orientation, etc out of the game and play to have fun dammit. I just cannot see basing a guild off of things like that. I joined a guild receantly and they never asked any questions about any thigns like that. What thye wanted to know was if I was a good player, if I liked PvP, and so on. They don't really care who I want to have sex with when I'm not playing, that's my concern.
So ya, Christian, Atheist, Gay, Lesbian, Republican, Democrat, White, Asian, and so on guilds are ALL annoying to me. Why? It's arbitrary shit that has nothing to do with the game itself. I don't find it useful to segregate along those lines. I know people in my guild are a different gender, race, and political alignment than me, I'm sure some of them are different religions, it wouldn't supprise me if a couple were a different sexual orientation. Know what? I don't give a shit. They are good players, and people I get along with. That's all that's needed. To try and divide along arbitrary barries would be stupid.
>> /ignore users that say things you don't want
/ignore people, I am removing myself from participating. I'd rather attack them back than stick my head in the sand.
>>to hear and please don't try to force your Christian
>> agenda on the rest of us.
Not a very good analogy. You don't hear Christians casually insulted in the way gays are. (Have you ever heard anyone say "dude, you are so christian"?)
If I have to
But lets say that they form a "Gay" guild... and I attack them (I don't play MMOs, but if I did, I would like to attack people because I think player vs. player competition is a lot of fun).
Now I have to worry about being called a homophobe or something like that, because I am having fun doing what I like (attacking other players). Could they even charge me with a hate crime, because after all, I am "simulating violence" against a "Gay" group, and could that be interpreted as an endorcement of violence against gays (Here in Canada, people have been arested for simply quoting biblical verses about Homosexuality, so it isn't outlandish that I could be charged with a hate crime)?
Perhaps they won't complain when I attack them... perhaps they will understand it is a game, and I just like player vs. player combat. But the fact that I have to even worry if people are going to interpret my attack in the game as an attack of their group in real life, makes the game not fun.
If gay people want to play the game, that is great! If gay people want to form guilds, that is great! If WoW wants to ban homophobic speech in the game, that is fantastic! Even if players wanted to roleplay homosexual acts in a fantasy context, that is fine by me! I support it 100%! But when they want to blur the line between the real world political groups (Gays, Lesbians, Bisexual and Transexual), and the fantasy world (Orcs, Goblins, Elves), it ruins the game.
Go run those commands and come back and tell us that, again, with a straight face.
/silly.
Particularly on a tauren male with
"Homoginized? Nawww, I like the ladies..." It is a voice emote too. (not applicable in cities, go do it in the wide open countryside)
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
You mean walking talking cows and dragons aren't realistic?! You don't ride a flying gryphon to work every day?
...
Of course not, I walk to work. Sometimes I ride my blue flame skateboard, if it's sunny - sometimes I get on this large smoke-breathing dragon called a bus if it goes by as I'm walking
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Many gay people marry straight women.
However, in some homosexual circles there IS an agenda to get more men to be homosexual, and they recruit in high school and college.
There is no over arching 'gay agenda' that I am aware.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It's much like the slashdot crowd's uproar against the media each time they misuse the term "hacker" to mean "someone who writes viruses and breaks into computers and sells stolen data on the black market". No, it doesn't mean they're explicitly equating people who enjoy coding all night long, or making something do a useful thing it wasn't meant to... They're writing out of ignorance, and it's messed up as eventually that link is reenforced by virtue of the same term being used.
:)
For any of you reading this who complain about "hacker" being used as a negative term by the press, but are happy to keep using "gay" as a term of abuse against something negative, ask yourself why you're upset at one but not the other. Is it your inbuilt biases? is it just because it only affects you and you don't give a shit about other groups in the same situation? Do you just not like short words?
Oh, get real. Your argument is like saying I will become accused of assault for attacking another character on a pvp server. Or that I am sexist for attacking a female character.
You don't always have the right to intrude your "message" into everyone else's consciousness.
Actually, in public places they do. You know... First admentment and whatnot.
But in private places like WoW... Well it is a matter of tresspassing.
Think of it like this...
Your invited to someone's house to play AD&D. During the game, one of the players keeps on going on a diatribe how the other player is oppressing his sexual orientation.
You can of course say "You... You shut the hell up!" or ignore him, but he can go on and on as long as the owner of the house says he can. You as a guest of that house cannot remove the other person or force him to be silent. You can of course take your issue up with the house owner, but you do not have a single right or legal ability to make that other person be silent.
So as long as the owner approves either with consent or non-action, the person making this activist diatribe has the right to implant his agenda into your mind via means of sounds and images (as long as those sounds and images are legal).
You can of course always leave...
However, if it was your house... Then you can remove the guy from your premises, but obviously none of us own the WoW servers.
Even if it is a game, it is not your game. It is Blizzard's game and you have as much rights on their property as they say you do.
If they let people do this to you, then either you need to ignore it, take it up with Blizzard, or quit.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
So that is what those recruiters were for. They told me they were recruiting for the Army, but now I know better.
Thanks for the warning!
Yur nt allowed to roleplay a straight character, either.
Hence the no discussion of sexuality rule.
So, everyone's bi?
Sweet!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The GLBT folks were attempting to make use of space owned by the "big government" but made available as a (limited) public forum. This creates an easement, so to speak, against the hypothetical property rights. Thus, when the "big government" said the use was not acceptable, this makes the rights of Speech and Petition far more central than Property.
I am not a lawyer, but Pruneyard v. Robins and Lloyd v. Tanner sound more relevant than your, er... theories.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
I don't know what moron modded you up, but your analogies are terrible.
1) Yes, in fact, you have a right to discriminate on your private property. End of fricking story. Country Clubs, Private Schools, etc, have won court cases about this for years. The only time you don't have this right is when you're running an establishment that is open to the public at large, which is where you're confused. No you can't discriminate if you own a restaraunt where clients walk in off the street, yes, you can discriminate if you make people go though an interview process first, and pay fees, whatever.
2) Yelling "Fire" and yelling "Fag" are two different things, unless you're in a church, where yelling "Fag" may cause a stampede for the exit, creating a public hazard. That is the criteria: you have to be creating a dangerous situation where people could get hurt. If I want to walk around being an insensitive bigot all day long, that's my right. It's called freedomn of speech, and just because it may hurt someone's feelings, doesn't make it illegal. The Klan regularly gets permits to march and spout their crappy ideas, have you never noticed this?
3) Freedom from people being assholes is nowhere guanteed in the consitution. If someone physically harms you, you have recourse, but you only have recouse against bigotry if it gets physical, if you get denied access to otherwise public services, or if it crosses the line to harassment. That's it. End of story. You can't have someone censured by the law just because you don't like their beliefs.
So many fricking hypocrites in this country. Everyone loves freedom of speech, religion, assembly...as long as the only people who are allowed to exercise those freedoms are people that they like. That's not the way it works. Tolerance also means, unfortunately, that you have to tolerate the opinions of people you'd rather see squashed by a truck.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
All right, then, let's have all the evangelical Christians given the absolute right to intrude at GayMenChatSite.com, able to spew their message unfettered and unhindered, so that the homosexual males at that site will be forced to "shoulder" their responsbilities.
Sheesh.
Whatever happened to the notion of "appropriate time and place."
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Hmm, so forcing "agendas" is bad, and forcing your personal "agenda" i.e. "i only wanna see the world i wanna see" is just dandy (lol i'll keep the pun!)?! Perhaps re "agendas" you should follow your own advice "ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your ... agenda on the rest of us. (it only needed the smallest of edits after all).
Oh btw in the interest of full(ish) disclosure i don't play WoW, am not gay, do live in the real world, don't have problems with people who do play WoW or who happened to be gay/bisexual (add any other maligned group here).
Well, "spaz" and "watermelon" both qualified in the past 24 hours.
Spaz makes sense, but...watermelon? Is there something I don't know? Is that like fried chicken, or is the throwing the problem? Either way...I defend my right to make political math jokes without having people call me racist...
So if I don't like most Christians, Christian guilds should be shut down so I don't have to put up with them? Good. Too bad Blizzard doesn't agree -- last I heard they let Christians guilds exist (no word on otehr religions). I think that was the point of the article: if Blizzard approves of your guild (Chrisitan guilds for one) it's cool with Blizzard, but if they disapprove of your guild (gay/ biseaxual) they'll shut it down and cough up excuses as to why. I really don't see how this is different from, say, running a gay couple of out of your apartment building.
But a lot of what you're describing is the problem I have with virtually all online games -- people being jerks. That's why I don't play them. Plus, the idea of paying for a game and then paying again just to play it is purely a rip-off, as far as I'm concerned.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
I agree with Jaysyn on this. Blizzard's Code of Conduct has absolutely nothing to do with the First Amendment. The first amendment states that CONGRESS shall make no LAW infringing on such and such. Not that private institutions cannot make such rules regarding their particular property. You have every right to make rules in your own house or business about what people are and are not allowed to talk about. The servers are Blizzard's property. They can make whatever rules they want to about what people are and are not allowed to talk about. Let's leave the government out of this, shall we? It has enough problems to deal with.
Wasn't this covered enough about 3 months ago?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
Two entirely seperate issues:
1. A guild for people who don't want to hear sexuality-related slurs while they play. What exactly is the problem with this?
2. "Bringing gayness into WOW". Characters in WOW come in two sexes. Relationships form online between characters. Sexuality is automatically present - you can't escape from it. Are you trying to say "come play this game, but you have to act straight?"
Coincidence? I think not!
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Unlike the other groups you mention, gays as a whole do not advocate that others be oppressed. The groups you mention do advocate the oppression (and sometimes outright murder) of groups they disapprove of, including blacks, gays, Semetics, among others. If a gay person says he is representing gays while preaching that all black people be sent back to Africa you can bet anything that other gays will contradict him very strongly.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
Yeah, I like light-skinned people better than dark-skinned ones, so when I open a restaurant I'm only going to allow the former and not the latter.
WOW is open to anyone. GayMenChatSite.com is obviously a gay chat site. If WOW is allowed to have frequent anti-gay comments, they should allow gay groups to defend themselves.
MMORPGs have not begun with WoW. You must have missed the entire phenomenon until now. On Everquest and other MMORPGs people do in fact meet. Entire families have been brought together and ripped apart because of people leaving their spouses or finding their spouses because of who they have met on these games. People have lost jobs because they play them too much. They are very clearly way more than just a game to a lot of folks. Sure to some who just plug in for a few (less than 10) hours a week they are just a game. To everyone else they've become a lifestyle.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Agreed. How about if I just want to play WOW without the vulgar and obscene comments? Whether or not it's GLBT friendly or not?
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
Who's modding this insightful? His response to the first of the three points misread the point completely. The example was of the property owner shouting fire which not only would be illegal, it SHOULD be illegal. His other responses are, frankly, gibberish. Someones' moderator privileges need to be reconsidered.
The homophobic tendencies of WoW surely pale in comparison to Runescape. The average age of a Runescaper is around 14. In highschool and juniorhigh, "gay" is a common staple of the vernacular.
Runescape's censor filter automatically blocks the word gay entirely. However, the word "gae" is used so often by the general populace that I usually don't bother to report it. It is always used as a synonym for "bad"..
After some reflection on this story, I will ask the Runescape players saying "gae" to find another or risk being reported for the basic rule violation of intentionally bypassing the censor.
Take off every Sig. For great justice.
When people bark that you're making a "political statement" by walking down the street holding hands, one grows quite tired of other people's "politics" and moves simply to ignoring them and getting on with life, but sure as hell not by disappearing into anonymity for your comfort. Don't like it? Don't look.
Reminds me of a comment from a few weeks ago (apologies to babydaddy):
Bonsai Kitten: TNG
"In fact, I've played WoW since Day 1, and I've never heard anyone say that something was "gay."
/general chat turned off. But it is rampant. It bugs the hell out of me, and I am straight.
I find that very surprising. Maybe it is because I play on a PvP server, or maybe you have
All right, then, let's have all the evangelical Christians given the absolute right to intrude at GayMenChatSite.com
Registrant:
Blizzard Entertainment
P.O. Box 18979
Irvine, California 92623
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com
Domain Name: OMGTHATSGAYFAGSSUCK.COM
Created on: 11-Aug-99
Expires on: 11-Aug-12
Last Updated on: 01-Sep-04
Is that what you're implying about Blizzard Entertainment?
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Is it to get more men to be homosexual or find and support the boys who already are that way? I know plenty of gay guys who are happy to support confused/bullied young homosexuals, but I have never known or heard of any gay people trying to "recruit" straights. All of the gay guys (and girls, for that matter) that I know seem to hold the belief that if they can't even convince themselves to be straight, the odds of them convincing somebody else to spontaneously become gay are vanishingly slim.
Well, I suppose there are probably some who try, just as there are some straight people who try and "recruit" gays... but unless the victim in question happens to be bisexual, very confused about what love is, or a very good actor, it's unlikely to work very well.
ignoring your comments about the transgendered (who in some cases you probably wouldn't spot), I'd like you, AC, to clarify your statement about bisexuals.
When you say that Bisexuals do not exist, are you saying that anyone who has ever had a homosexual experience is homosexual, or that anyone who has ever had a heterosexual experience is heterosexual or what? I'm confused.
Ira
Most of the time the GLBT folks anger me because they want to introduce negative rights into the world -- forcing people how they have to act on their own land.
Really? The ones I know just want to be allowed to inherit property from each other.
Yeah, what a god damn intrusion.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Maybe they associate themselves because they want to end bigotry based on gender and sexuality, rather than seeking to make everyone just a little less bigoted like you so they can accept gay people, too.
English is easier said than done.
Well, presumeably part of the "gay agenda" is to not have to hide one's identity, and instead to be accepted, as gay, as a full first-class member of society.
So by proclaiming that one is gay, and by advertising for a gay guild without being censored by the authorities, you have "forced" people to consider the fact that people playing the game may actually be gay, and that they have the same rights to speech and to association as all other citizens.
That's the logic, such as it is.
All these people keep saying they don't want to hear about it, because they don't care. This is nonsense, they obviously care very much or they'd let it be, instead of feeling like you are imposing on them merely by declaring your existence. What they really mean is that they don't want to hear anything about gay people, so they can pretend everyone is straight. This is why having your own little gay club offends them -- they can no longer pretend that people in that guild are straight, and you have "forced" them to realize that they are sharing a game server with a homosexual.
It's as lame an answer as saying that it's the GLBT groups who brough sexual preference into the game in the first place. No, it's the people using "faggot" as their pejorative of choice that brought the issue of homophobia into the game. A GLBT group is just an attempt to escape from this environment. It's as ludicrous as blaming a black person for bringing race issues into the game when he complains that everyone is tossing "nigger" around with reckless abandon.
Oh, but of course racism is frowned upon by mainstream society, and thus spewing "lol u nigger" would be frowned upon. It's still socially acceptable to be a homophobe, so "i hate teh gheys" is fine, everyday speech and "hey I'm gay that offends me" is bringing up issues that don't belong in the game.
The enemies of Democracy are
Depends on your opinions of homosexuality. I think pretty much anyone will agree that you are born with a race and gender....and that this is part of your outward appearance that you cannot change, and everyone physically in front of you sees you as...
Being gay? Well, many think of that as a behavior....something done behind closed doors by consenting adults....a choice of lifestyle if you would. Many people think this lifestyle is wrong...or at the very least, don't care to see it flouted in front of them in public.
While there are arguments and findings that homosexuality can be caused by some hormonal factors during development in the womb...it isn't rock solid...and many consider it to be more environment or choice in behavior.
In that light, many people don't want to discriminate based on things you cannot help...such as race and sex, but, not everyone agrees that being gay is something you cannot help....just the way it is perceived to a great extent out there in the real world, and apparently in the online gaming world too.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
You don't have to be an nihilist to be an anarcho-capitalist. Just because people ought to be allowed to do things doesn't mean that they ought to do them. Blizzard ought not to stifle people like this, and people ought to complain about it.
English is easier said than done.
MOD PARENT DOWN, ignorance-flaimbait-poor thought. I have rarely seen a less thought out and more ignorant post in a majority of my life. "Making a GLBT "friendly" guild is fucking dumb. Mind-numbingly idiotic. You are supposed to be in a game making guilds about game-ish things... " Lets see, How about playing the game for fun? Maybe it is not fun or satisfying to play a game where people use homophobic language and slang in a derogatory manner to detonate that one's way of life is inherently bad or evil? Surely making a guild so you can ENJOY THE GAME is a "game-ish" thing? "Again, keep your choices about flesh and sex out of the god damn game. If sombody uses the word "gay" and it offends you, then we're all terribly sorry that a word that describes your sexual orientation has also come to be synonymous with something bad. Maybe you should see a phsychiatrist about that and leave players alone." IGNORANCE! I don't think they were complaining about people saying "oh no, did you hear jimmy is gay?". No, it wasn't that the word has "become" synonymous, it is that it was USED as a SYNONYM to designate something bad. EX: "That's gay" "You fag" "stupid Homo". Also lets draw eyes to that last line, "Maybe you should see a phsychiatrist about that and leave players alone.". SO because people are offended by people saying that they are worthless and their way of life is bad and evil, they need to see a psychiatrist? It's ignorance like this that promotes unhealthy social interactions that the youth of this nation have become accustomed to. Disclaimer: I am a white male college student who is of a straight orientation, before you think i'm biased. However ignorance offends me to such an extent, and yours borders on stupidity.
You never realize how much manually made unmanaged "linked" lists suck, till you have src.link.link.link.link...
You're right, you have the right to say what you wish in the privacy of your own home. Unfortunately, people with those overt attitudes in private, carry them over to the public sphere, where they become covert (passing that dark fellow over for promotion, not inviting that well-dressed, effeminate guy for happy hour after work with the rest of the team, etc.)
You do things that are just as prejudiced, but it's all "undercover" so nobody can prove it, but the effects are just as harmful as if you went around screaming "I hate blacks and gays". Actually more harmful, because you can't be confronted and shut down as easily.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
"I was enjoying walking around killing low level creatures when two idiots (who I did report)"
/ignore command. People who report are like jail house snitches and should be the ones who are banned. If you cant deal with someone in the context of the game, dont go whining to the GMs and have their accounts closed. Thats very juvenile and im really glad your not part of the game world. Most reporters get weeded out by 60 anyways as they get known to be the whiney little bitches that they are.
wow. I guess you dont see the irony of posting that. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. If people didnt report others, then this kind of stupid shit wouldnt happen. Were those people really bothering you? Are words -not even specifically directed at you - a reason to get someone suspended or banned? There is a reason you have the
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
If female characters were really female, then you could probably get accused of being a sexist for attacking female characters. However, you don't have to be a female in real life to be a female in the game - therefore gender is entirely fictional. The "female" character could just as likely be a male as female in real life. There isn't a real world gender significance.
However, the GLBT clan, is REALLY Gay, Lesbian, Bi, or Transexual people, for real in real life. The gayness isn't a fictional character's attribute, it is them in real life! So when I am attacking a GLBT clan, they might percieve it as a personal attack on the real life selves, and not as an attack on their fictional character.
Even if they won't be offended, I am offended. I don't want to attack gays, or Christians, or Muslims, or Democrats, or Americans, or any real world group of people. I want to attack evil magic cults, or goblins, or purely fictional groups of people. If I am going to be attacking other players in a game, I want the line to be clearly drawn so there can be no mistake that it is purely fictional.
The problem here is that when you bring politicized language into a public space, you're opening the door for political opinions. The word gay used in a pejorative fashion is as offensive to some as the "N word", it's necessarily politicized and if you would allow people to have free speech in that regard then you have to allow dissent. Would you advocate for a public space where people can say "nigger" all they want but complaining is strictly dissallowed?
>It is a civil matter. They can sue.
Oh my goodness they can do a lot more than that. I don't much care whether you agree with the philosophy of criminalizing Mr Smith's behavior or not, as it doesn't change the real and actual fact that unless they live in some total backwater, it's much more than a civil matter in their jurisdiction.
Virtually all of Smith's behavior is criminal harrassment. Some of it is outright felony meanacing. His junk-waggling would very likely get him deemed a sex offender, and the funny thing about that is that the shoe will be very much on the other foot should Mister Smith decide to move into a new neighborhood.
Oh, and this is to say nothing of federal civil rights laws, which most certainly have teeth in criminal penalties.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
I'm going to start an Anti-GLBT guild. You think my guild should be allowed?
sure, go ahead. free speech is a two-way street, so long as you don't promote illegal actions, such as encouraging people to firebomb the houses of gay people.
but i agree with you that the rights that exist in the real world aren't necessarily there in the game. the game is blizzard's property, so to speak, and they can kick anyone they happen to feel like or disallow whatever speech they want (in theory), but they should weigh their decision carefully if they decide to take action, as there are many other MMORPGs out there and people can just jump ship if they don't like where things are going.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
I sense a bit of pent up hostility..
Reported much?
I haven't played Warcraft since Warcraft II circa 95. I am going to assume the basic game premise hasn't much changed:
1. Raise an army of trolls
2. Raise hell with army
3. Miss school/work/date and click on peons to hear funny phrases instead.
If this holds true, I fail to see what WoW has to do with homosexuality OR christianity.
However, I am not naive. People will always divide themselves into "groups" and "teams" and "sides". I say, so be it. Let the Christian Orc league do battle with the Elves of NY, let them spend hours destroying one another again and again.
And then, after they spend 10 years at "war", and see it has made NO DIFFERENCE, perhaps they can BOTH shut up and get some opinions of their own.
Math is math. Regular expression is regular expression. The tools are there. The future is now.
What would have made more sense would have been to start and guild, make it clear during recruiting that such language would not be tolerated, and go about one's business.
Isn't that pretty much what they did? By stating the guild was GLBT friendly, they were letting prospective recruits know that insulting language like that wouldn't be acceptable. I think Blizzard just had a CR person shoot from the hip, and hopefully it will all be sorted out. The official policies say that insulting language is against the terms of service, and I don't see how advertising a GLBT fiendly guild can possibly be seen as insulting, any more than advertising a guild for people on East Coast (U.S.) time is insulting to someone in Europe.
"'... last summer a friend introduced me to WOW, and I really liked it, though I didn't care for remarks many of the players made, like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad." Come out from under your rock have you? Welcome to the internet, with its own language. Thats the problem with WoW, all these people who have never before been exposed to 'our' world, are now diving in, and are not liking it.
Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, a GLBT-friendly guild doesn't mean you have to be queer to join. It just means you have to not be an asshole.
Which automatically excludes a large portion of the people who play WoW.
Disclaimer: I play WoW, that is a joke, folks.
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl
I was especially disappointed to learn that Blizzard also shut down the Super Adventure Club's guild!
Who's modding this insightful?
Trolls.
Seriously. Dada is the Slashdot answer to Kellie Pickler.
Actually, the word "nigger" IS used in public spaces with great frequency, in in a deeply pejorative sense--by African Americans urbanites. It's only NON-African-Americans who aren't allowed to use it.
The whole "politics of language" is distorted and very illogical--the use typically reflects the agenda of the person in question.
C.f. pretty much any film by Spike Lee.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
To be precise, Matthew was beaten, chained to a fencepost, and left for 12 hours, and it took him about three days to actually die from having his face and skull smashed in.
About a year later, somebody, nobody seems to know quite whom, kidnapped the mother of one of the two guys who did this to Matt and left her to die in the middle of a field miles from the nearest road in a howling snowstorm.
Wyoming: where you gotta make your own fun (in Annie Proulx's words.)
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
ok, a few things.
1. the shouting bit, if it was done repeatedly over a long period of time could constitute criminal harrasment and they could press charges. the sign thing could also qualify, but i'm not entirely sure, as that would often depend on local bylaws regarding signs on property, though in my town, that kind of sign would get you a decent fine.
2. the "waggling his junk" bit, they could file indecent exposure charges, or if that persisted, sexual harrassment charges could be filed
3. i'm pretty sure that they can seek recourse over that through civil courts over that.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
there is already a MMORPG like that. its called Disney's Toontown Online.
And its offensively fun.
Ira
The constitution is sorely lacking on this point. In my view, the 1st amendment should be extended to de-facto public places, such as malls, most online forums, and the likes. How exactly is society benefiting by having an abridged 1st amendment vs. an extended 1st amendment?
The current set up is giving a few people who happen to have some strategically placed capital control a chunk of society. It's never been a good thing.
Property privileges are a creation of humans, and there is no reason for them to be absolute. I can see the logic in controlling what is said in a private house, because you have little control in shaping society to your ends through it. However, Blizzard has control over a great many people. It's strongly against the common interest to allow them to discriminate.
Blink, blink... Yeah, I am not specifically disagreeing with you and I suppose this is not out of the realm of possibility... It's just that I have never heard of this actually happening before. Could you send us sources or relate stories you heard?
Personally, I find three things offensive - most offensive to least:
1. Censorship 2. Intolerance 3. Bad Smells
Every time I'm forced to change channels because I got tired of trying to figure out what word they were bleeping with the everfucking 1kHz tone I write an angry email. I never watch movies on basic cable (unless it's comedy central's secret stash or I've already seen it) because instead of losing myself in a good story I'm always wondering what I missed to the censor's editing machine.
Somehow, the US culture has managed to accept the axiom: morality == christian values. Why is it tacitly acceptable to offend me and my peers, but if someone of the christian persuasion claims offense people fall all over themselves apologizing?
The religious "right" has followed a homophobic line (not supported by the bible, as far as I can tell - having read the New Testament) for thousands of years and now their opposition has finally made some progress in terms of tolerance. It's probably not directly the "right's" fault that "gay" has become a derogatory term in the last 10 years or so - I blame middle-school kids, personally.
If I were playing WOW, I'm sure I would quickly grow tired of hearing "that's so gay" repeatedly (see offense #2), and the stifling of the GLBT guild would doubtless have pissed me off (offense #1) enough to cancel my subscription or kill off my character. I'm not gay, but I have friends who are - but even if I didn't #2 would still be #2.
So I guess this one hits 2 out of my big 3. I'll probably have to wait for smell-o-vision before I can get the trifecta.
-g
I use friend/foe to signal strong [dis]agreement instead of mod points. What else are f/f good for?
People love to accuse gays of "activism" and "recruiting", when what they really mean is, "STFU, so I can pretend you don't exist."
Instead of GLBT, use GBLT or a similar form (maybe even BLT-G if you're feeling gangsta). Everyone loves BLTs (except maybe vegetarians, but they're gay).
Racial inequality has meant things like slavery, and later on, whether one was legally allowed to do certain things. To compare this to the gay cause is an insult to african americans throughout the Americas.
* it's not that gays don't have the right to marry, it's that that's not the purpose of marriage, and thus requires changes to the meaning of marriage itself to truly be accomodated
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
The perponderance of Supreme Court decisions over the past couple of centuries doesn't agree with you. But don't take it personally. Few Americans these days really understand the Constitution, what rights (and responsibilities) they have, etc.
Most Americans are little children.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(Not that I'm implying that the alternative of social miscegenation works any better)
I really don't get it. I allways thought that the small attention-span americans claim to have was exagerrated. And now a topic which has been discussed over and over again (News that someone founded a GLBT-friendly guild, news that Blizzard banned them, news that the GLBT-friendly ex-guild was pprotesting, news that blizzard unbanned the GLBT-freindly guild and trained their gamemasters better) (not counting the dupes of these posts).
see it for yourself :Old Stories
That was just a search for GLBT, i'm sure you can find all the other stories with some other keyword.
The last story dealing with this incident was posted March 6th, IT IS EVEN LINKED TO IN THE RELATED STORIES UNDERNEATH THIS POST. (Link for the people too lazy to scroll up
Honestly, what is wrong with you ? My little brother has got a better attention-span, and he's five years old....please remove the insensitive "gay" tag and just put "stupid" like with those april fools stories! oh, wait..
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
My comment had nothing to do with Blizzard Entertainment, their WoW site, or the owners thereof.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
That may be your personal opinion but it is decidedly NOT the basis for this Republic. The Declaration of Independence, one of our founding documents, clearly states that our rights are not arbitrary, nor are they man-made. Rather, they come from our Creator, and are inalienable--meaning that as they are not "made" things, they also cannot be "unmade." They are permanent.
The right to private property is one of them.
Note that you may continue to believe what you will--including your doubt that a Creator exists. I simply remind you that the foundation of our Republic is predicated on a notion directly OPPOSITE what you imply.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
The parent poster gives the only voice of reason in this stupid God damned debate.
Having been a slashdot reader for years, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked at the lack of insight some of the comments here have shown. Seriously though, comments like "don't take your sexuality/politics to a game" or "words never hurt anyone"... Who do you think you're fooling?
If the controversy had been over a topic involving racism, I wonder if some of you would have been as quick to jump onto the Get-Over-It bandwagon. I will grant that not being gay/bisexual/transgendered, perhaps you are unaware of the daily things which people talk about and seem commonplace for many, yet are not the same for LGBT folks. In a LGBT-friendly guild, you do not have to worry about saying "I am going to the movies with my boyfriend" if you are male.
More to the point, the issue was never Blizzard kept those groups from being around, but that they were not allowed to talk about it. If "words do not hurt" as you put it, then I suppose you are the type of person to refer to your African American friends as n*****s? No? Oh, then I suppose your analogy was incorrect.
"PC Load Letter? What the $@#% does that mean?!"
...the impetus to start a LGBT guild was because of the language in the game at large.
Why do we have to start a cause because we feel like we've been wronged in a game? I played WoW for about 6 months straight. I was seriously addicted to it...yet, I was willing to quit overnight. Why? I was tired of the 10-13 year olds who were too busy talking about each others mom's to just shut up and play the game. This is the proper response. You can't expect to form a faction and have these same people take it seriously. You can't reason with them. Either jump to a Role-Playing server and shut up, ignore the comments, or just quit outright.
I'm not GLBT so I can't personally relate to how it would feel if something dumb happens (apologies to the IQ deficient) and someone said "OMFG that's so gay!" However, as a Christian, it did irk me when people would say "OMFG!" or "Christ!" or anything like that...but that's it...it irked me, but it didn't cause me to want to stop playing. What was the final straw for me is when we'd be deep in a dungeon and all of sudden we'd lose two of your members, their last line being, "My mom's home! I'm supposed to be in bed! CYA!" Or when a guy in our group would get bored and decide to aggro a whole bunch of mobs on us just for the fun of it. Or, my personal favorite, when our healer was too busy trash talking one of our members to heal us.
It's a pity that people have the power to ruin a game, but it is a massively multiplayer game. I, personally, wasn't about to start an 25+ year olds guild to combat my horrible experiences with young punks - besides, that would be age discrimination and, in reality, those people were probably the same age as me anyhow. The bottom line is that it is just a game and your life doesn't depend on your continual playing. I mainly play single player games now...
Those who can, do. Those who can't, go into business for themselves.
In other words, the freedom of the press belongs to those who own a press. If all presses are owned by a monopoly, there is no true freedom of speech.
It is interesting to note how you would probably very strongly criticise a Communist government that suppresses speech in spaces it "owns" (that is, everywhere), but welcome such acts if they occur in private spaces. There is no essential difference if we assume, for example, that space is owned either by a monopoly or a similar group that seeks to, for example, cater to a possibly biased population or just simply seeks to suppress speech in general in order by "sanitize" the "customer" existence.
A few years back there was a nice experiment conducted by a magazine... they sent a few guys dressed up as (clean) hippies to distribute leftist leaflets in a shopping mall. Within the space of a few minutes, they were escorted out by security. They came back dressed up in suits and gave out cellphone adverts and nothing happened.
This is a worrying trend because over here in Finland malls can be very much a public space especially during the winter months, when conditions outside can be rather nasty. Fortunately according to my understanding, (otherwise legal) expression is protected in mall walkways as they are recognized as a kind of public space. The same does not go for the actual shops. Thus there were no grounds for the removal.
This serves as a good example of how absolute private property rights can destroy all other rights, and how those who are ideologically invested in them at any price are capable of tolerating any consequence that may follow. Fascism is ok, as long as it's voluntary Fascism...
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
That is an interesting example. My question is this: Is the DM also the person who's house you're playing at?
[http://it-tastes-so-good.blogspot.com] Are you hungry?
you can still write books about natural occurance of homosexuality
I was playing a real-time/real-space game in college. It was some fantasy game, low-magic in a medieval setting. The witches' team got hosed. They were infiltrated, set-up, arrested, and burned on the stake. It so happened that two of the players were lesbians both in game and in real-life, and part of the evidence at the trial was that they had committed an abomination.
The story somehow got to the University's administration. It got to the newspaper. The lesbigay groups heard about it. The 'roleplaying' guild got in so much trouble you would not believe it. Some of the activity money was withheld, some of us had to sit and listen to some insane feminazis about how insensitive we were, and the the next few games were reviewed and censored.
Keep in mind that the girls whose characters died on the stake had no complaints. The guild was not accused of harrassment, but of creating a hostile environment, or some similar shit. Now, I can see how Blizzard wants to avoid a similar mess. If you allow gay-friendly guilds, what do you do about White Pride ones? Democrats? Scientologists? Blizzard has a business to run... good call, I say.
No good deed goes unpunished...
He specifically believed public figures should be free to beat the living shit out of journalists that had lied about them.
But I believe If I was Mr. Smiths new neighbor, Mr. Smith would be found bleeding in the middle of the street. The first time he whipped out his junk, he would be found lying in the street next to his junk.
And that is how it should end, cops and courts are'nt needed. Just a good old fashioned ass kicking.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The etymology for the word "chink" as in "chink in his armour" is completely different from the word "Chink" as in Chinese person. They are entirely unrelated words. Similarly, words like "niggardly" and "nigger" (as I understand it).
The issue that many people have with "gay" being used in a derogatory sense is that "gay" as in "bad" does not have an entirely separate etymology from "gay" as in "homosexual". Even if there is no longer any association in the minds of people who use it, originally there was: homosexual == bad, hence gay == bad. The word is tainted by its former use. I don't think anyone would have any problem with it if it could be proven that its new meaning came directly from "gay" as in "happy".
You could argue that it is now an entirely separate word, and its derivation is irrelevant, or that the whole subject is political correctness gone mad (though I would not want to put words in your mouth) but the fact is that there are people who find it offensive. I appreciate that you're not advocating its use, but neither are you condemning it. Most people who use "gay" to mean "bad" are not being homophobic, but I do think they are being rather tactless.
If blizzard wishes to deny someone the right to play their game, they are just exercising a form of speech. Forcing them to allow something, is taking away their freedom. If this was the government, then it would be a completely different situation. BUT this is a PRIVATE ran game and business. Just like how a bar can deny a person entry for whatever reason they deem to be fit, a game can do exactly the same. While we might not view it as being ethical in some form, it is their choice. If they lose business over it, they will probably change their policy. Anyways, way blown out of proportion. It really is jus gay ... er I mean retarded, er ... jewish errr ...
Ah forget it.
Point that is being made, is words evolve. I know people that are homosexual, that use the word gay in that way. Just like how gay use to mean happy, it is now tranforming into meaning stupid or lame or whatever. Just like how nigger evolved from an ok term, to a slur, to a semi-slur when said by certain people.
It's true that the politcs of language are pretty distorted, but I disagree with your example. The use of the word "nigger" within african american urban culture is very rarely pejorative, it's a term that can be only used by those who could be targetted by it. If an average slashdot user (see: middle class white male) were to use it pejoratively in a public forum, it would be innapropriate and it wouldn't take an activist or someone who's overly political to be offended by it. The usage of terms reffering to homosexuality as pejorative terms is clearly not primarily happening within the gay culture here. If you're going to use the word fag, you can't expect there to not be political undertones, period. The fact of the matter, and the root of my issue here is the idea that actions are only political when undertaken by activists or politicians. The use of language, the modes of commerce we engage in on a daily basis, the food we eat, practically every action we make has political reprocussions. To argue that people should shut up about politics is essentially to argue that you should be allowed to behave any way you want and that nobody should be able to dissent. This would work perfectly fine if it weren't for the fact that even our mundane actions, like the language we use, have effects on other people. The average slashdot user doesn't have to be aware of this, because we very rarely find ourselves in contact with a significant mainstream force within society that is prejudiced against us. We can imagine that how we behave is perfectly normal and acceptable and that anyone complaining is just being a spoil sport. I'm not a particularly P.C. person, I use offensive language sometimes, sometimes with the intention to offend. But I think people should be aware that it's not a defensible position to use language that is offensive to some and insist that there are no political reprocussions attatched to doing so.
who says it is not natures way of population control? to pu it in slash-terms
get $population density; if $population density = think of it in microsofting terms "it's not a bug it's a feature" in other words reboot and live with it.
and just so you know... as a wiccan i am offended by closed minded fools noooo, i am not talking about you
To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
You must be new here.
I'd just like to note that homosexual behaviour IS illegal in many places, both around the world and in the USA.
/ignore.
:P
As for the topic... being bisexual myself, the only reason I'd join a GLBT guild is to actually meet people with an immediate common link. I'd rather join a Metal Gear Solid Fan Guild, to be honest, and put up with the language. It's just words, and if it starts to bug me, I'll use
While I say these guys (and girls) have every right to set up their gay guild, they shouldn't be such fags about it.
mmmm... *sigh* :P
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
If they want to get away from politics, then why do the homophobic players use politically-loaded terms like gay? As if that's not political in itself. If they wanted to avoid politics, they would avoid using that word in a demeaning way.
... and then they built the supercollider.
You are full of shit.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Don't you see the hypocisy in your comment? You don't want to be harassed or bombarded. That's exactly what the GBLT guild wants - to escape from the harassment.
How does them having a guild where they can play together "harass" you in any way? In contrast, they are the ones being harassed by all the homophobic comments.
If you really wanted to escape from "reality" - then why do the characters even have genders?
... and then they built the supercollider.
The negative meaning of the word "gay" depends on an underlying ideological assumption that homosexuality is negative. In common American English, it hinges upon the stereotype of gay males as effeminate and so "wimpy," "ineffective," "uninspiring," and "frivolous."
Every time someone uses "gay" as a way of dismissing or derogating something, an ideological link between male homosexuality and reprehensibility is exploited and reinforced. This ideological linkage is more obvious when, for example, someone calls an obviously straight male a "fag." That's how most degrading language works. Think about words like "cocksucker," "cunt," "asshole," etc. None of those are literal. They gather their force from deep cultural beliefs about what is good and bad.
Naming something "gay" to indicate it sucks depends, in American English, on cultural homophobia and, in my opinion, is the sign of a shallow mind.
blog
You must have some pretty deep psychological problems if it angers you that GLBT people don't want you to use bogoted language. How are they creating "negative rights"? They are just asking to be treated with more respect. Just like you have the right to ask people to stop spamming you or calling you an idiot.
... and then they built the supercollider.
If you don't care, then why are you so offended by it?
... and then they built the supercollider.
"Also, hauling out the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a defense is kind of silly, because the original poster would probably site that as an example of a broken law. That basically represents an argument by appealing to authority, and is also a debating technique to use when you have no solid facts or reasoning to back you up."
His "appeal to authority" was a citation of the equal accommodation promised by the Civil Rights Act. According to American law an American restaurant owner is forbidden from discriminating on the basis of race (even though the restaurant is the owner's property).
Finally, an appeal to authority is only an example of a logical fallacy when the person or source in question is NOT a legitimate authority on the subject. Any sensible person could see that you only bolster your argument by citing an authoritative source. In this case, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is quite clearly a legitimate authority on whether or not an American restaurant owner can discriminate on the basis of race.
So I'd say that there's an overwhelming majority of people using it and not caring, because I can virtually guarantee you that almost none of those references are actually meant in a derogatory-to-homosexuals connotation.
And I can absolutely guarantee you that you're wrong; to begin with, usage of the term "gay" to say that something is not cool absolutely depends upon a "derogatory-to-homosexuals connotation." Calling somebody a "fag" because they're corpse-camping you or doing some other thing to piss you off is entirely dependent upon a "derogatory-to-homosexuals connotation." If the terms didn't have that meaning based upon a negative attitude towards homosexuals, people would not use them in those situations.
But what do I know, apparently you're "insightful." At least according to your fellow passive-aggressive gay bashers.
fuck you.
Dammit I should have refreshed the page before I decided to reply. I just repeated everything you said, but not nearly so eloquently. :(
fuck you.
"like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad."
It's not gay, it's ghey! Completely different words!
Fraggin' in the name of Christ. Amen!
Or, they're just using it in the older sense of the word; i.e. "Silly". As in: "That's gay!" == "That's silly!"
:)
... (Just playing Devil's Advocate here)
There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
Genius, on so many levels.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
The Declaration of Independence doesn't mean shit legally. It's a good thing too, since an absolute right to private property would be horrible. Don't forget that slaves are a kind of private property (and in full force when the Declaration was written).
So go take your talk about a creator nonsense and go shove it up your ass. What are you going to tell me next, that fairy godparents exist and grant wishes?
I am amazed by how much fuzz anything related to sexuality is generating.
Why? It's the current razor edge of our world's social development. There is always a subject of social controversy about which society is divided. Social topics near that line are highly controversial and create a lot of noise. Subjects far to either side do not generate so much hot air. The effect is polarizing: conservatives will call the new issue "the end of society" and liberals will call it "justice". I tend to agree with the latter in most cases myself, but in any event in 25 years the topic will usually be pretty well accepted and society will move on to a new battle.
Right now, the razor edge is centered (mostly) on issues of sexuality: orientation, stem cells, emergency birth control, abortion.
A generation ago, the controversial edge was on the length of your hair, the substances you imbibed, and premarital sex. Homosexuality was only beginning to show on the radar but racist law was already waning.
Two generations ago, it was skin color and equal rights for racial minorities. Very few people talked about homosexuality at the time, but today equal rights for blacks isn't a very controversial principle. (Which is not to say it has been entirely achieved, but few people openly oppose it anymore). At the time, it was obvious to everyone, even the liberals, that homosexuality and premarital sex weren't okay.
So don't be surprised in WoW or anyplace else. Most of our social debates will be about sex, sex, sex all the time for the next few years until we get it out of our system and move on to the next subject.
What's up next? Hard to say, impossible to predict. Maybe religious tolerance and principles of secular government need to go through the wringer again. Maybe polyamory is up for its' turn (that would feed into the obsession with sex, anyway). Maybe another round over psychoactive substances is due, though I'd guess that's further off in the US at least.
Who knows. Either way, in 25 years people won't talk much about homosexuality at all and one of those other issues will be the source of all the noise. Even in online games.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Even for me, as a gay fella, I don't understand what this whole mountain was created out of a molehill; a game is a game, and if people wish to 'advertise their guild', wouldn't the appropriate website be more appropriate than interupting a players game with spam about a particular guild starting?
I've got no worries with a gay guild; its a place where gay players can hang out, chat about 'gay issues' (aka, boyfriend problems) in a general discussion area - some treat online gaming as also a way to develop some online buddies, so for me, I don't have an issue with a GLBT guild per-say.
in my part of the US (and at the mall i work in+ the other malls owned by the same company) if you hand out anything and are not a renter in the mall
YOU WILL BE THROWN OUT.[full stop]
The Mall in question is Private Property with its own rules.
We also have a few members of the local PD running around if you want to dispute the "your rights V Their Rights" question.
hint as to which mall: ask yourself Where are Camels(r) born?
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
That real chick in the picture (they never really say who she is, but it's implied it's the person who started the guild) is HAWT. Holy crap, my brain hurts. /would hit it //even if her knees were like knives ///what do you mean, "this isn't Fark"?
Why do I M2 everything negatively?
Your first post was great. There's a very famous quote by Thomas Jefferson (I believe, and I'm probably not 100% accurate): "I despise what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". For a few brief minutes, I respected you.
And then this crap. Have you read the "fire in a theater" decision? Apparently not, since Oliver rWendell Holmes spent a very long time explaining exactly why the government DID have a RESPONSIBILITY to protect against such speech. Why? Because all rights are in tension; the right to say "fire" (1st amendment) is outweighed by everyone else's right to be safe and secure in the possession of his or her life (4th and 14th amendment, due process clause). The government decided any reasonable person would expect that hearing "fire" in a theater meant an emergency, and the risk of a loss of life outweights the minor loss of freedom of not being able to say that word. And the premise is far from ridiculous: people DIED in the era before fire codes mandated evacuation schemes that work.
Libertarianism has a fundamental flaw: it assumes that anyone who should have responsibility exercises that responsibility rationally. If local governments were perfect, the Civil Rights Act would not have been necessary. Did you by chance notice that local governments aren't perfect? And that the whole point of a federal law (imperfect as it may be) was to give those who wanted a better world leverage against reactionary neandrethals who liked the status quo ante bellum?
I have no problem with communities (not necessarily meaning villages or towns but organizations of people with like apprecations and prejudices) joining together to chat about their beliefs.
Fine. This "community" called the United States of America joined together on principles of tolerance and freedom. And I find it rather arrogant that you waltz through claiming the freedoms you desire while dismissing the responsibilities that make those freedoms possible as "not your problem," that you dismiss laws you don't personally agree with as ridiculous and not worth obeying. If you think the Supreme Court and the laws of this country are wrong, then please leave the country.
A witty [sig] proves nothing. --Voltaire
I still believe you are full of shit, otherwise, why are you posting as an anonymous troll?
... and then they built the supercollider.
These people weren't trying to stop the 13 year old contingent from using these words as they were, offensive or no. They weren't starting a cause in any way. All they were doing was saying "hey, we're starting a guild and welcome people who prefer to play in a more respectful atmosphere" and they got their account banned for it. That's pretty ridiculous to me.
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
That's how the term is being used in this context. Mainly to mean fanciful, and more generally, silly or absurd. It can also mean happy and cheerful, jolly, even Oh yeah. The sex thing too.
In all seriousness, I don't want to deal with homosexuality in an online game. /ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your gay agenda on the rest of us.
You do realise that this argument works just as much against you, don't you? You too can ignore users that say things you don't want to hear, without having to force an anti-gay agenda on anyone.
Most of the time the GLBT folks anger me because they want to introduce negative rights into the world -- forcing people how they have to act on their own land. I don't believe in negative rights (the ability to criminalize or penalize someone for their speech through government) because I believe it destroys property rights. If I want to sit around in my home, my restaurant, or my office and criticize whites, blacks, gays, straights, midgets, tall people, or geeks, it is my property and my right. If my customers don't like it, they'll go next door to the guy who ISN'T prejudiced. Heck, I even think you could have a "straight women additional fee" on food served if you really wanted to be an idiot.
The majority of legislation that GLBT folks want has nothing to do speech. All GLBT groups right now are pushing the right to marry and have their partners receive equal treatment under the law that heterosexual couples receive. The other thing they push are hate crime laws. Hate crime laws simply make it so that if you commit a criminal act against someone and the fact that they are gay/black/whatever was what motivated you to commit that crime, you can serve some extra time. Our legal system takes into account intent when dolling out punishment. The reasoning for this type of law is the same as differentiating between 1st and 2nd degree murder.
Now, are there GLBT folks trying to push stupid laws? Sure. Is that what the majority are focused on? Not really. Most of these groups are just pushing to be allowed to marry, serve in the armed services, and in general be viewed as equals to heterosexuals in the eyes of the government, which they most certainly are not right now. As far as the other stuff like hate speech laws; the civil rights movement didn't ban the KKK or keep the KKK from spewing their bigotry in public, treating GLBT folks like humans too isn't going to strip anyone of their free speech rights either.
It's only a problem if you were hoping to have kids.
Surely you meant IQ challenged ?-)
"Deficient" has a certain negative association, so your expression was somewhat politically correctly challenged. Of course, the word "politics" has lots of negative associations too... So, your expression was spin challenged.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Bullshit. Simply because you made an assumption about me doesn't mean that I've given you any information; simply because the assumption is about my sexuality doesn't mean that I'm "radiating" it.
Personally, I think that going around telling everyone that you are gay is ludicrous. Especially if you do it just so you can yell "I'm being oppressed!" when someone tells you to shut the fuck up.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
[yelling]
That's so fierce(*),
Take it to them honey!
[/yelling]
(*) commonly known gay word
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
On second opinion,
;)
I'd like to see that instead of seeing that dwarf dancing naked on-stage at the AH bridge of Ironforge
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
It's not about assuming everybody is heterosexual. It's about keeping your sexuality where it belongs: in your bedroom. Nobody I knows thinks "me, the hetero guy, will now play wow, together with all my hetero friends, in the guild that is all about being hetero". Gays could really take a page and quit making sexual preferences into a complete lifestyle, centering everything around with whom you'd like to go to bed with. Not that they "have" to . It would just limit the number of "wtf?" reactions from people that don't give a rats ass about what you want to do to whom sexually.
And yeah, about being offended by others in WoW. Guess what? It happens to everyone, regardless of sexuality. Most 14 year olds tend to be annoying and stupid, so what you do is, not join a guild full of them.
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
The only way to get rid of slurs like that is to embrace them. Large parts of the respective communities have already realized that. This is why you hear "nigger" the most in black-rap :-). Also, people should realize that calling something "gay" or someone a "fag" is a strong indication that there might be a very immature mind involved. Immature people, as a general rule, are offensive and annoying to everybody regardless of skin color or sexual orientation. The way to handle this for the last 10.000 years has been to basically ignore/slap-around anyone under the age of 16. It works, try it!
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
No, words do change their meaning over time. Or at least, sometimes new connotations are given to them. I mean, how did "gay" come to mean the same thing as "homosexual" in the first place? I'm asking, I seriously don't know. A better example of this phenomenon is how "nigger," a derogative racial term for a black person is now commonly used as a friendly greeting among white guys. You may still not like either word(gay or nigger), but you do have to admit that they have different connotations in some contexts. And yes, I understand that calling your white friend nigger as an expression of cameraderie is essentially a positive idea, while calling something gay to connotate "bad" or "ungood" is still essentially a negative one. My guess is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if people were saying gay to mean that something was good. (i.e. "that shirt looks soo gay" = "man, that shirt looks really good on you")
This sig intentionally left blank...
"I'm recruiting for my GLBT-friendly guild"
And I'd be all like "WTF is GLBT? I'm LFG UBRS"
This sig intentionally left blank...
The interesting thing about the BSA wrt the 'Mormons' (please, say LDS church, it is more accurate) is that now the BSA is in a position where the LDS church and the Catholic church compose the majority of its members. To allow homosexual leaders would instantly alienate both of these groups. The LDS church has recently introduced and modified several programs that would, should the BSA choose or be forced to allow homosexual leaders, allow the church to instantly abandon the BSA wholesale.
Such a move on the part of the LDS (or Catholic) church would most likely sound the death-knell for the BSA. Understandably, the BSA has no interest in this occurring.
Here's my personal take on it as an member of the LDS church--the BSA should be required to allow homosexuals if they wish to continue to recieve tax dollars or other governmental support (such as a Congressional Charter). Since they couldn't reject that money or support (without replacement) and remain solvent, they should either accept the loss of the support of the churches or find an alternative source of funding (such as the churches and other organizations that mostly encourage their young men to join the BSA). I feel that the LDS church and the Catholic church would gladly offer assistance as necessary.
Coming from a religious person, this may sound very odd, but I don't think that it is appropriate for any organization that receives direct assistance from the government to disallow membership or employment based on anything other than ability to do the job. Our public servants should be hired solely on ability, and if your organization is receiving either federal or state tax dollars then you are essentially a public company [unless it is done solely as a business contract--money for rendered services.
If you are religious, of a specific gender, have a skin color, or a specific (or even non-specific) gender/sexual orientation, then you can always expect that there will be some private club or organization which may deny you affiliation. As a male it is unlikely that I will ever be permitted to join Delta Delta Delta Soroirity (grrr), and I can accept that (even though a lot of college guys would really like to). As a white guy it is also unlikely that I would ever be accepted into an organization such as the Congressional Black Caucus (okay, I would need to get into politics first, but that would likely be easier).
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
How about this, just play the fuckin game? I could care less if you're a top or bottom in RL, just swing your sword or cast some spells, talk about the raid/quest you're on and leave it there.
I think Blizzard should have stuck to its guns and not allowed any of this. I don't talk about banging chicks and hooking up while in online games so why exactly does it need to be different for you?
Needing to be part of a sheltered GLBT guild... now, *that* is gay. I don't need a support system to be straight, maybe that is a sign of how lame you folks really are. Give it up, stop force feeding your lifestyle on the rest of us, and do whatever the hell you want to in your bedroom... but leave it there.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
But it is most definitely not a legitimate authority when trying to determine whether or not a restaurant owner should be able to discriminate based on race. The original poster was not claiming that current law did not prohibit this. His argument was that it shouldn't. When arguing about whether or not a law should exist, the law itself is hardly a legitimate authority.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
How does them having a guild where they can play together "harass" you in any way?
Okay, my choice of words was quite poor. I'm not the most elequent of people here on slashdot.
My real problem is when people bring real world issues and activism into these games. Dealing with this in-game makes playing a lot less enjoyable.
I'm not pretending to know what it's like to be gay, apparently it leaves you with the need to publicly separate yourself from the crowd. I just don't understand why it has to be done in a game.
Bullish Machine Tzar
The meaning of the word has not changed - the use of the word you are describing is rooted in homophobia.
Sure it has. I can say I've used 'gay' == 'stupid' == 'retarded', etc. It's not because of homophobia or hate. It's more sarcastic comedy. Shit, I'm kidding myself if I can explain why I find something funny.
All I know is that I'm not homophobic and I never use it in a deragatory fashion but yes, I still use it.
Bullish Machine Tzar
WRONG! It is not declaring your existance at all. It is shoving your existance down other peoples throats.
Why is it accepted for people to get pissed off at telemarketers that keep calling them but it is not ok to get pissed off at people advertising their "gay friendly" clans? Thats all it is, advertising. These people in the game do not start up a conversation with another player and then say "Oh yeah I am in clan DKDD we are gay friendly". I would be fine with this. Instead they fill the chat rooms with their advertisements.
Thank you, Mr. Example Of Exactly What I'm Talking About.
Do you see other advertising in-game? You talk about telemarketers (who interrupt your life with a ringing phone) but not in-game advertising (which appears in the exact same place as the GLBT guild advertisments). Is the guy who "WTS [Hanzo Sword]" shoving said sword down your throat? Is every lame-ass comment about Chuck Norris that appears in your chat window shoving Chuck Norris down your throat? What about every third line of chat that includes the word "gay" in a derogetory fashion?
No, you don't complain about any of that (and if you did dislike it, you'd just turn off the general and trade channels). So obviously the GLBT groups are different to you. Merely having a pro-gay guild appearing in your chat window amongst all the other drivel is "shoving it down your throat".
It's just like I said: "shut up faggot" is fine, "Hey, I have a GLBT guild where you won't hear that kind of talk" is a direct assault on your ability to pretend homosexuals don't exist and thus offensive to you.
This is entirely your problem.
The enemies of Democracy are
You know what's really gay? People who complain about gay evolving to mean "stupid/absurd". Nothing the fudge-packers say (see, now that's a derogatory term) will change that. Either live with people saying things are gay (as in, stupid) or - well, I dunno. Go to another country and speak another language, I don't care.
Just because the "homosexual == bad" connection is so strong in your head that you can use the terms interchangeably does not mean that you have actually changed the meaning of the word. The fact is that the same people who use "gay" as a generic insult meaning bad or stupid also will use the exact same word as an insult meaning "homosexual", with the exact same negative connotations of undesireability.
"Gay" is only used as an insult because of the notion that being gay is bad and one does not want to be gay; it is a direct outcome of homophobia and gay-bashing. You're trying to claim that you have separated yourself from this etemology, but in fact you have not, you are playing on it more heavily than ever. You have simply spread the usage of the word "gay, meaning deplorable" to a broader spectrum of usage, using the "gay == bad" connotation to impunge upon things that couldn't technically be homosexual.
Guess what. People used to complain about people using "retarded" to mean stupid. People still say "wow, that's retarded" when refering to stupid decisions. Live with it.
You'd have to be mentally retarded to not realize what a bad example that is. Hint: The meaning of this word has not actually changed, other than to be used in a coloquial, non-clinical way. It still means "very stupid, as if resulting from mental retardation".
Which is basically what "gay" means, and using the word "gay" to refer to things that cannot actually be homosexual doesn't change that the foundation of the insult is "gay == bad".
I'm sure most of the Slashdot community is used to living outside the mainstream, and almost everyone on Slashot seems to be able to get along in normal life without turning some clear rules infraction into a four-month tirade against the "restrictions of speech" in an online game (particularly one that specifies in the terms of service that are agreed to that they may regulate the speech on their chat channels).
Remember the kid who got in trouble for breaking the rule against black trenchcoats? Or any of a hundred incidents after Columbine, when everyone "different" was being persecuted with ridiculous regulations? I guess they should have just shut up...
Honestly, I would think that the experiences of "most of the Slashdot comumnity" would make them more sympathetic to a persecuted sub-culture (not that it would even compare with the persecution of homosexuals). But apparently not. I suppose most of those geeks persecuted in high school went on to get jobs and realized that they weren't "geeks" any more, and are now enjoying their privileged positions as middle class straight white males in American society, and looking down on those who have yet to make the leap from ostracized to privileged.
I find that pathetic.
GLBT issues really have no right to be in Slashdot, let alone Azeroth. This repeated "Blizzard censors GLBT guild" thing is getting to be really gay.
No right, eh? Funny you should use those terms. Given all the homophobia present in this very thread, I'd say it has every right, even a need, to be on Slashdot. The fact is that I was right the first time: You're fine with tossing the word "gay" around as long as it means "bad and stupid", but as soon as the word is brought up in a non-derogetory fashion, you're offended and think that kind of usage "has no right to be in Slashdot".
The enemies of Democracy are
I completely agree with you in that I don't want to deal with christianity in a game but I accept the fact that I have to from time to time. I am not a christian and tend to disagree with most everything christians say and I try not to associate with people who are openly christian. However I understand that people want christian and lgbt friendly guilds, fine. But now I want to make a guild that is LGBT/Christian unfriendly and want to make gay and christian slurs all day long in it and insult god regularly. The axe won't swing both ways and the christians/LGBT community will scream up and down how wrong it is and how the guild should be banned. If you can make a LGBT or christian friendly guild and call it "Worshippers of Jesus" or some stupid crap like that and expect me not to complain, then let me make a guild called "God haters" and recruit based on christian unfriendliness and deal with it. If you can't deal with it, then don't make and advertise your christian/glbt friendly guild.
Thanks for explaining the connection between using "gay" as an insult in contexts not obviously related to sexual preference with the underlying "gay is bad" assumption in a better way than I did.
The enemies of Democracy are
And you're the sort of person *I* left WoW because of - anally retentive and completely bereft of anything that could, even given nurturing and encouragement, ever grow in to a sense of humour. What's worse is your whole "run and tell mother" attitude. "Reporting" users is an act so reprehensible as to make me feel ill. What happened to being able to deal with your own issues? Don't think you can put those two kids in their place? Why must you run off and tell mother? I don't know what disgusts me more, your weakness of character, or your hair-trigger cry baby routine. Grow some fucking backbone.
Perhaps the answer to the problem of teenagers dropping bricks from motorway and railway bridges is to sue Tetris.
It IS a sci-fi based game, rather than a Tolkein-esque fantasy game, so the skins used asre different, but it's good fun.
I've got no problem with that. I think there are way too many fantasy CRPGs and way too few SF ones.
Check out the Nanomage Liberation Front for a good RP-only guild.
Thanks. I will.
This sort of crap is pretty standard at low levels. Moving into higher level areas usually avoids most of this stuff - which is pleasant. Unfortunately for a Horde character in WoW, one of the major conduits for travel is through the Barrens which is widely known for insulting and inane chatter (chuck norris jokes being just the begining).
:P
If you can't handle that annoyance, roll on a rp server. However, if they tolerate that stuff, they really should be able to tolerate a GLBT guild. Why not? They already have most of the casters wearing dresses.
Frankly, what I'd really, really, like to see is a server where you have to be 20 something or older to join. Not sure how the enforcement would go, but the hope would be that there would be less people acting 14.
I'd just like to note that homosexual behaviour IS illegal in many places, both around the world and in the USA.
:P
;>
True enough - but at least in first world countries being gay itself is generally not illegal. Let's not conflate behaviour with existence. It's not like we're having hard core butt sex in game here.
While I say these guys (and girls) have every right to set up their gay guild, they shouldn't be such fags about it.
Well, clearly.
Danged uppity fags!
hooked up funny
I actually think that should be protected speech. If the idiots in the theatre trample each other in a mad rush from a fire that doesn't even exist, it was their own stupidity and lack of clearheadedness that killed them, not the person shouting fire. If someone tells me there is a fire, I am going to at least look for smoke so I can figure out what direction to flee. But trampling people just to get out when there's no actual fire? Simply because of a panic? I think that's far worse than yelling 'fire'.
But I know I am unique in my opinion AND it has little to do with the conversation. But I think painting speech as potentially physically harmful has a chilling effect: Just look at the whole Cartoon Mohammad thing for an example of that. "Words can hurt, so you can't say words that hurt." Words don't hurt people. People hurt people.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Level 60 LFG Blackrock Spire, BTW I'm transexual
After reading the 1UP article, I felt sick. Not sick in the sense that I felt bad for Andrews, but sick in the sense that the whole thing is retarded and has been blown out of proportion. Do I care if Oz is GLBT? Not really - I'm there to play a game, not to discuss sexual orientation. Do I think Blizzard could have handled the situation better? Yes. Is Blizzard anti-GLBT? Heck no. They just don't want you spazzing out about your sexual orientation, and I all I can say is, word up! It's a game people. The day you lose sight of that is the day you shouldn't be playing anymore games. I, for one, play games to get away from life...people dragging political issues like being gay or transsexual into the game just ruin it for the people who want to sit back, have fun, and try to play enough to justify that $15/month ;)
Great! Let me know where you're opening, so I can open a competing restaurant across the street. After a few interviews with local media neither of us will need to advertize, all the protesters and people on prayer vigils outside your place will need a convienent spot to get lunch (my place), and I could become a local civil rights hero. You meant your post to express bigotry, but all I see is an easy way to get rich, become famous, and at least appear to be a wonderful human being.
In many philosophies, governments don't own public property, the people do. The govenment is just there to act in the people's interest - as in a power of attorney, an executor of a will, or a governing board for a trust or a corperation - and the govenment's purpose is to let us share the use of our group-owned property. I have the right to speak on my own land, and that includes public land (that I partially own), unless it interferes with other people's use. My speech on land I don't own is a completely separate matter.
hippies vs suits
Even if I agreed with most of your post, malls are for shopping. If they want to let people buy and sell but not protest or pass out leflets, I don't see that as any worse than a church that allows prayer vigils but not commerce. Even if they're public spaces, they're public spaces with a specific purpose.
in Finland malls can be very much a public space
So owning a mall means you are required to give people shelter whenever they want it?
Fascism is ok, as long as it's voluntary Fascism.
The whole point of owning something is that you gain contol over it. You have to be insane if you think that there's no difference between a private person not letting the Boy Scouts camp on their farm and the government not letting them camp at a public campground.
FTA: "It should be clear that mentioning that you are gay is no different from mentioning that you are left-handed or short or from the West Coast."
and I just found the perfect name for my new guild........
The Short, Gay, Left-Handed, West Coasters Guild
No sig for you! Come back one year!
Actually, it is because of homophobia. Without homophobia, "gay" would never have become a word associated with "stupid" or "retarded." Whether you mean it or not, using the word in this way is associated with homophobia, because homophobia is how this meaning came about.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Of course they do. I'm not sure what this has to do with this partcular discussion, though.
A better example of this phenomenon is how "nigger," a derogative racial term for a black person is now commonly used as a friendly greeting among white guys.
What? "Nigger" is certainly not a common greeting among white guys, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm sure that "nigger" is a very rare greeting among white people.
My guess is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if people were saying gay to mean that something was good.
Obviously, but that's not the case here. "Gay" = "bad" because the person using the word in that context thinks that gays are despicable.
... and then they built the supercollider.
How is it possible to separate the real world from the game? Do you get equally offended when people mention what country they are from in the game?
Also, you seem to be more offended by the GLBT guild than by the people who shout "fags" or "gay" in the game - aren't they also bringing real-world agendas and politics into the game?
... and then they built the supercollider.
However, all the Jews are losing 50 DKP tomorrow for killing our Lord and savior. Sorry, but if you nail the son of God to a 2x4, you're not going to get that epic chest piece.
I'm never going to understand this aspect of the Christian(?) faith. Jesus was a Jew and so were (most of?) his friends. I thought it was the Romans who did the nailing - you could loosely interpret that as Italians. Most Italians are now Roman Catholics... Damn well punish the Vatican then.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
A resounding DUH but they own the game. If you don't like how they run it, cancel your subscription. That's just what we need, more n00bs crying because they are too stupid to realize they should change games. I don't particularly like the fact that on MMO's I have to play with kids but that said, as soon as some game comes out with an adults only server, I'll be there. I'd happily pay an extra fee to have a mature audience to play with. There's a whole group of gamers out there looking for the same thing but the marketers are not seeing it. Other thing is MMO's that allow you to combine groups. I often play with my wife and in order to get a group, we have to split our group or lead. That makes no sense. You might have 100 groups of 3 floating around that could be 50 groups of 6. That = players not playing. Bad move MMOs!