Lenovo & Customer Perception

music_lover writes "According to this article, Lenovo is losing current ThinkPad series customers to HP, Toshiba and other notebook vendors because of customer perception. Apparently, customers don't feel comfortable purchasing from a Chinese PC manufacturer now that the ThinkPad brand isn't supported by IBM anymore. Could this really be perception? Quote: "Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command. In fact, it has, to some extent, alienated ThinkPad's fans and taken a sales hit. In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads have now traded up to an HP or a Toshiba. None of them went back to their ThinkPads. After asking for a clarification, I was told, "Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?" That said, our corporate parent has continued to buy/use Thinkpads; the ones that I've seen do just fine, and they've added new machines and a parternership with AMD.

Comments

misconception

[dotpavan]

It's a misconception, because even HP/Toshiba/Dell/etc laptops are assembled (or parts mfg.) in China.

Re:misconception

[dnwq]

I think there's a perception (wrong or not) that companies based in Western nations are more accountable than companies based in China. Presumably, if something screws up, it is thought that it is harder to pursue a Chinese company than one in, say, the United States.

This may not be strictly true, but somehow I doubt that corporate accountability in China is better than that in the States...

Re:misconception

[BruceCage]

This is the difference: this man used to be in control, this man is in control.

Re:misconception

[darkmeridian]

I guess the misconception is that the engineers are also overseas and therefore the quality of the goods are going to go down. [sarcasm]You see, the Chinese are only good at following instructions given to them by the Americans.[/sarcasm] But look at the Thinkpad/Lenovo T60: they are still very well-built machines, when compared to even the Powerbooks.

It's terrible to think that a great brand is going to go out of existence because of unwarranted xenophobia. Imagine if we're stuck with Dell!

Re:misconception

[tacocat]

But the contrast between Thinkpad and Dell et al is the price. Chinese made products are made because of the Wal-Mart Effect. If it's made in China it's got to be very low in price. But Thinkpads are still significantly more expensive than a Dell or HP. This isn't to say that the price difference is unjustified or unwarranted. But if you were to have these computers made by a German company (a country with a long standing perception of high quality engineering) then people would be more willing to have the price significantly higher than a product made in a country famous for it's cheap Manufacturing costs and an unknown Engineering quality (possibly historically suspect).

If you look at their ultra-portable models, they are readily $500 more than other companies. I'm sure they are all made on the same street in China, but that kind of a price difference, combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer, tends to push me towards the cheaper models.

If computer hardware requirement growth slows down, this will give longevity to my notebooks. This in turn will give me reason to consider a better quality machine that can be expected to last longer, which brings Thinkpads back into view. But they have to survive this change from IBM to Lenovo.

If BMW or Mercedes decided to move all their locations into Korea and China I would expect their markets to take a severe hit for the same reason. And people would expect BMW vehicles to drop in price by at least 30% overnight. The perceptions of the parent companies are significant in getting people to choose.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

But look at the Thinkpad/Lenovo T60: they are still very well-built machines, when compared to even the Powerbooks.

So you've done a sampling and conducted research on the topic? The issue isn't that they are engineered and manufactured in China (despite your politically correct anti-xenophobic bleating), it's that IBM was the company dictating quality control standards and would back the machine up with support. You can stay with the same design and "reduce manufacturing costs" in many ways. They (Lenovo) are now attempting to compete with lower end consumer laptops, and that gives me pause. With IBM I paid more and I got a reliable machine, not a fashion accessory.

It's terrible to think that a great brand is going to go out of existence because of unwarranted xenophobia. Imagine if we're stuck with Dell!

The idiocy never stops around here. Check out Fujitsu and ASUS for decent machines.

Re:misconception

[WinterSolstice]

I think it's a branding problem -

For example: IBM is associated with Mainframes, 30 years of hardcore business machines, and the Thinkpad (which arguably is one of their best products ever).
Lenovo is... some random company.

Never mind where they are from, never mind where they are built, it's just about about name. When someone asked me if they should buy a Gateway computer I said "They're still around?". Same issue. Who the heck is Gateway? They used to be everywhere, but they kinda lost mindshare. Lenovo is having the same issue. They aren't really 'known' yet, so they don't have the clout to sell one of the most expensive laptops around.

Well, that, and the fact that several people I know traded in IBM Thinkpad T42s to go with Apple MacBook Pros - that's a different discussion.

I know I personally wouldn't buy a Lenovo for the next 2-3 years, until they proved themselves to make serious laptops. It's not a 'Chinese/American' thing - I won't buy Dell either, for the exact same reason. I only personally trust laptops (in this order):
IBM, Apple, Sony, Toshiba.

IBM went from #1 to #n+1 overnight by selling off the business. I've never had a problem with Thinkpads before - but Lenovo is a whole new company.

-WS

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting. My Lenovo ThinkPad, a T40 which I am very happy with, was made in Japan.

Re:misconception

[Dan Ost]

...combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer...

Out of curiosity, how long do you think the life expectancy of a modern computer is?

There was a time when it seemed like you needed to upgrade every 2 years or so just to have
a fast enough computer for the current software, but I think we got past that 5 or 6 years
ago. I haven't upgraded my persomal machine in 5 years (at half a gig, it's a little tight
memory-wise compared to modern machines, but the 1.2GHz AMD chip has no problem with current
software) and my laptop is about the same age. At work I have much newer machines, but I don't
really notice the speed difference except during compiles.

Re:misconception

[walt-sjc]

I think the whole thing is very simple. Corporate buyers were willing to pay more for Thinkpads due to the IBM name and reputation. Whether or not you liked the boys in blue, the repuation of solid service and support was there. Without IBM's name behind the Thinkpad, the price gap is no longer tollerated. I'm a long-time thinkpad user, and recently bought a Dell (BIG mistake BTW...) as I also couldn't mentally cough up the extra $$$ if it wasn't IBM anymore (plus the fact that I could not get the display resolution / memory / etc. I was looking for in any of the Thinkpad models at the time. Models with lower specs were significantly more expensive on the order of $1K+. In fact, I STILL cant get the screen res I want.)

Re:misconception

[NewWorldDan]

I don't think it's xenophobia. My wife, a longtime ThinkPad user, is ready to jump ship because it's just not IBM anymore. It's a strong sense of brand loyalty. In her case, she's loyal to IBM, not the ThinkPad. Lenovo just doesn't have a name in the US for most consumers yet and it's rather silly to think that this is going to happen overnight.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha.... American running dog. We put TPM big brother chip in your machine. sucky fucky? ten dollar?

Oh wait... so does Apple, and HP, and Intel.

Re:misconception

[DoctorPepper]

I have a Dell notebook, you insensitive clod! I'll have you know

@*&^^^ NO CARRIER

Re:misconception

[daviddennis]

I was under the impression that the original IBM engineering team went with the purchase, and so the new Thinkpads were made by essentially the same people and company.

Is this wrong?

D

Re:misconception

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It's right. IBM sold the Thinkpad division, not just the rights to the manufacture. The computers have always been made by other people. I remember that Acer made some thinkpads, and Lenovo made some before the purchase too I think. The people went with the sale, so that didn't change. They didn't even have to move. Lenovo has a lot of employees who are Americans, living in the US. Former IBM'ers.

Re:misconception

[Panaflex]

I've had several TP's, and I've enjoyed them all. In terms of overall build quality, they're very solid machines and cheaper than a Toughbook.

But I would agree with you, my perception is that they're aiming for the low end, and killing the niche market they already enjoyed.

I do disagree with you, however, that concern for human rights in China = politically correct anti-xenophobic bleating. If it were you making Christmas lights by hand for "thinking aloud" dissident thoughts, I'd be pulling for you.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM went from #1 to #n+1 overnight by selling off the business. I've never had a problem with Thinkpads before - but Lenovo is a whole new company.

Yep, the Lenovo thing reminds me more of Netgear's transition from being a Bay Networks subsidiary to being a standalone company. The HQ was and is in the USA but their post-IPO products seemed to me to ramp up a bit in their quirkiness and unreliability as they ramped down in price. I knew generally what to expect from Bay's (ok, I mean Synoptic's) hardware; Netgear, errm, not so much :-) .

Likewise, I gravitate to Linksys, in particular now because they are part of Cisco.

Re:misconception

[WindBourne]

It is NOT unwarrented. I have seen a lot of junk coming from China just when I pick up eletrical parts at some of the local areas. Another great example is that China has bad capacitors; Why? because they stole the formula from Japan. Fortunately (or unfortunately), the japanese caught them and substituted an old known to future fail by expanding in volume over time. China is under going such fast expansion that Quality is not job #1.

Interestingly, I think that stuff coming out of South Korea is high quality, where some odd 8 years ago, it was the low-end junk.

Re:misconception

[Horatio_Hellpop]

// Imagine if we're stuck with Dell!//

Oh, the horror of being stuck with my Dell Inspiron 5100, three years old, without *one* hardware problem, and only a handful of lockups with the original XP Pro install. It even recovered from a full cup o' coffee spilled directly on the keyboard, fixed by my disassembling the case, and blowing out the liquid with a can o' air. Didn't even have to call on my service contract.

Not all Dell laptops are crap.

Re:misconception

[iocat]

I just bought a T60, after several years of having an R40. I have to admit, when I got my R40, it felt pretty neat, to own an actual *IBM* brand personal computer. I assume it's similar to what people who bought cadillacs in the 1960s felt. I had clearly just overspent on something that was actually significantly better than everything else available, and came with teh name to prove it.

The experience of getting my Lenevo ThinkPad was actually much lamer, although the computer was designed by the same people, and is obviously way better (1400 x 1050, dual core 1.8Ghz... very nice machine). Maybe nothing replaces your first IBM, but also I was surpirsed at home much they pushed the Lenevo name, instead of just capitalizing on the Think brand. That actually turned me off. The computer itself is awesome, but there is a lot less brand loyalty cache behind it. I think the value of the IBM name itself, especially to brand loyal buyers (like me, I guess) may have been undervalued.

If Lenevo abandons the awesome keyboard of the Think series (which they have already on their cut-rate Lenevo brand laptops), there's no way I'll buy another. I am just glad my T60 still says IBM, because it's going to be a cool artifact at some point in the future.

Re:misconception

[Kadin2048]

This is true, however it seems as though Lenovo is slowly cutting those people and moving the design jobs over to China as well.

The short story is in this article, Lenovo cuts jobs in restructuring push: In short, they've dumped the US design teams for their desktop line, but retained the Thinkpad people (based in N.C.). However if I was working there, I think I'd be either polishing my resume or taking a Berlitz course in Cantonese.

If their marketshare in the US continues to slip, it's not hard to imagine that they'll cut the design teams here (which are probably expensive to operate, versus having a few people on the payroll in an office they already own in Hong Kong) and retreat to the Chinese domestic market. That's pretty much what they've already done with the desktop lineup; if, given a year or so, they don't make up the lost ground to Dell and HP with notebooks, I could see it happening there as well.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, Thinkpads were made in China even before Lenovo purchased it. When I bought my T30 (direct from IBM) a few years ago, it took about 3 weeks for delivery. When I looked at the packing slip, it was shipped out of Hong Kong.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

[sarcasm]You see, the Chinese are only good at following instructions given to them by the Americans.[/sarcasm]

Our small IT department has always favored Thinkpads because, in our experience, they have been more durable than the others. We don't need high-end audio and video features etc. Too many features, in our case, is a distraction from the work that needs to get done.

IBM has always had a great Web site for downloading drivers which has been important because we cycle our computers through several departments before retiring them. Only recently have I had any difficulty at all in finding drivers for some of our older models.

Being durable and able to find drivers made me comfortable buying a refurbished Thinkpad for myself.

That said, I am now far more leary about buying a Lenovo, not because the engineers are Chinese, but because a new owner means new goals and strategies that will differ, for better or worse, from IBM.

Any time a company changes hands, as much as the new owners may wish to keep things the same, they also have a strong desire to place their own mark on the company - which means changes.

Re:misconception

[saihung]

Unfortunately, what you say sarcastically isn't that far from true. Factories in China with foreign management are perfectly capable of churning out new VWs, Citroens, etc that look and drive just fine. But let's take the old Beijing Jeep debacle as an example: when Jeep actually had a say in the manufacture of Chinese Jeeps, they were basically up to the (more or less dubious, but still) quality standards of American-made Jeeps. As soon as Jeep left the business in disgust with their Chinese "partners" who were swindling them out of money and technology, the quality went into the toilet. The exterior panels stayed the same, but the engines were suddenly coming out of military trucks, the 4WD mysteriously disappeared and was replaced with a lousy 2WD drivetrain, they started shaking and rattling, etc. I don't claim to understand why this happens, but I think that it's for one big reason: Chinese understanding of what it means to be a brand is still vastly inferior to that in the West. The state of marketing and advertising in China bears this out. Chinese bosses simply don't understand, and therefore don't have patience for, Western-style marketing. Design counts, sensitivity to market counts, image counts. It took Japanese manufacturers years to figure this out, and when they did they started hiring American designers because they understood their market well enough to know that they didn't understand it very well! (though, to be fair to Japanese manufacturers, they cared about build quality even when no one was looking over their shoulders). If you've ever dealt with Chinese suppliers/executives, then you know it will be years, if ever, before most Chinese companies come to the same kind of understanding.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a MAC thanks. The problem is that people see a product that is outwardly made in China, so know the exact money trail. Outwardly who wants to support those bastard Commie's.

Re:misconception

[Senzei]

But the contrast between Thinkpad and Dell et al is the price. Chinese made products are made because of the Wal-Mart Effect. If it's made in China it's got to be very low in price.

What part of being made in China mandates that it be low price? Perception? Does a crap computer made by Germans somehow work better than a crap computer made by Chinese? Sure, maybe economic and social conditions over there encourage a "low quality, high volume" business plan, but I seriously doubt that the country as a whole is only capable of working that way.

I'm sure they are all made on the same street in China, but that kind of a price difference, combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer, tends to push me towards the cheaper models.

You're sure are you? So you have been there and seen it? You have no idea what you are talking about, and your ignorance is even more insulting because you seem to take pride in these ideas. Sure, in aggregate, it may be safe to say that Chinese companies produce low quality products. But to assume from there that Lenovo will produce low quality products is guilt by association, among other kinds of stupidity. I have lost all hope that I will see a week, even a day, go by without someone proving my sig to be right.

Re:misconception

[iocat]

There are two major pc builders in China. Lenevo and SomeOtherCompanyYouWouldn'tRecognizeTheNameOf. IBM chose SOCTYWRTNO to build the ThinkPad thanks it its committment to quality. But they sold out to their competitor, Lenevo. So there's precedent to think that the quality will decrease.

Re:misconception

[tacocat]

As you kind of implied... about 5 years depending on what you use it for and how much travel/abuse it gets. But for notebooks I expect less and for desktops more.

Since this is about notebooks: 4 years if have the $$$.

Re:misconception

[tacocat]

First, your an ass. You ask if I'm so sure of my own perceptions. Don't be a flamebait.

No I haven't been to China. But I've been to Mexico. Mexico at the time was the then China of low cost manufacture. All of the television assembly factories were within 5 miles. And I wouldn't be the least but surprised if they are within locality of each other because the labor skills will be localized as will the parts shipping and distribution. It wouldn't make sense to have to recreate the infrastructure necessary in two locations.

I don't think you're thinking this through.

Re:misconception

[lord_rob the only on]

I don't know if I'm the only lucky guy on earth but no way am I going to pursue a chinese company that sells me an excellent laptop. My Lenovo-made Thinkpad R52 really rocks. I love the feeling of the keyboard. Compared to my mother's Acer laptop there's a world of difference. Linux suport is quite good. Maybe it won't last long but for the moment Thinkpads are way better than competitors for professional use. Other brands make more or less "multimedia PCs" while IBM are real workstations.

If lenovo completely changes the design of Thinkpads to make them more or less like their competitors (multimedia-firtrees laptops like Toshiba has done in the past), they are stupid ... They will lose great marketshares.

Re:misconception

[trentblase]

Of course, the brand hasn't changed. The brand is still IBM (and Lenovo is allowed to use the IBM brand for 5 years after the sale of the business). So what I find interesting is that even though the brand is the same, people are still jumping ship. Lenovo paid a lot for the IBM and Thinkpad brands, and it seems they overestimated the gullibility of the high-end consumer (i.e. most people laying out that kind of cash for a computer are aware that it only says "IBM" on it because Lenovo paid to use the brand). Perhaps that's why they are starting to target lower-end customers -- those customers may not be savvy enough to know that it isn't really IBM anymore. With that said, I just bought a new X60s. I think its fabulous, and comparing it to my older T42, I doubt Lenovo changed IBM's design much. I can't say that future models will be as good, but for now I don't belive that the quality has fallen.

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

We've been ordering Thinkpads prior to the sale to Lenovo and since then. Pretty much the quality has stayed the same for what we've been buying pre and post Lenovo ( t42 and t43 laptops) . I have noticed some changes in quality though. Since the Lenovo sale, the battery on almost all of the notebooks no longer fits as well. It is now a little loose wheras previously it was a pretty snug fit and didn't " rattle" at all. With the battery being a decent portion of the weight to these notebooks, when it " wiggles" sometimes it is pretty alarming to the user. Does it affect performance? no. The overall quality of the machines is the pretty good.

However, the " new" models Lenovo has been putting out haven't really been too great. We purchased 2 Z60s... they weren't the cheap ones either.. I believe they were both $24xx... Now these bastards also have the same signature " loose" battery, but also have heat issues whether they are in the dock or not. The vent in the notebook case points down, and the dock isn't designed to provide enough of an airway for the heat to vent out. Also it's pretty obvious that when the laptop is on a soft surface ( lap, couch, etc) that the same vent will also not provide adequate ventilation. When it overheats and just plain shuts off, the end user has to remove the battery and AC adapter... pretty awesome. The t series notebooks we've had over the years never had this sort of issue, or what is in my opinion a serious design flaw.

Re:misconception

[hackstraw]

The Japanese were not regarded as a base of quality until recently. I believe its the mid to late 80s, but maybe before. 1970s Japanese cars were cheaper, smaller, more fuel efficient cars than those provided by say American companies. They were not regarded as superior cars, just cheaper alternatives.

Sony did not release many consumer level electronics until the 80s. Sure, they had the video recorder in 1965, sure the professional UMATIC in 1971, sure the betamax in 1975, but video recorders did not start really hitting US homes until the mid 1980s. My family got theirs in 1984. It cost over $400, it had one tuner, mono audio, and marginal features.

I would be distrustful of a Chinese owned and operated laptop that I have no idea if they have any binding to the US and the US laws of business. I expect my PowerBook to have service and warrantee work and repairs so long as its under warrantee or maintenance. I don't even know if a warrantee with a Chinese owned company is valid between me and them. I have no idea if my Chinese laptop burns my lap and cripples me if I could sue them, or even what court I would sue them in.

Re:misconception

[Senzei]

First, your an ass. You ask if I'm so sure of my own perceptions. Don't be a flamebait.

You are stating your perceptions as fact. More than that you are extending an assesment of Chinese products in aggregate to apply to a specific vendor. Calling me an ass does not make either of these incorrect. Yes, I am asking if you are sure of your perceptions, mostly to ask if you really think that your perceptions are accurate enough to be treated as fact.

No I haven't been to China. But I've been to Mexico. Mexico at the time was the then China of low cost manufacture. All of the television assembly factories were within 5 miles. And I wouldn't be the least but surprised if they are within locality of each other because the labor skills will be localized as will the parts shipping and distribution. It wouldn't make sense to have to recreate the infrastructure necessary in two locations.

Sorry, I took the "they are all made on the same street" comment to be some intimation that Lenovo is incapable of manufacturing a quality product. Yes, competing companies locating their factories near each other would be to their mutual benefit in terms of available labor force. That says nothing about the quality of products from each individual company. We were speaking in two different contexts, and I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Re:misconception

[dhruvx]

This is their own doing. In the zeal to become the manufacturing giant, they compromized quality and their brand value. The Chinese government does nothing to stop its companies from dumping, smuggling cheap goods on other countries. It fails to punish companies manufacturing duplicate goods of big brands. The end result is that people dont trust a Chinese manufacturer however good they may be.

What you sow is what you reap. I don't think Chinese brands will ever be able to get respect / following as other brands. I personally am for banning trade with China unless it stops its unfair trade practices. It needs to make its businessmen more accountable.

Re:misconception

[jericho4.0]

No Mac user uses a 'MAC', and I'm not even a Mac user.

Re:misconception

[iserlohn]

Why would you take a course in Cantonese? Most of the hardware design jobs will be based in northern China or near Shanghai. Plus, Mandarin is much easier to learn.

Re:misconception

[Teddy Beartuzzi]

Bang on. It's not racism, it's simple name recognition. HP, Toshiba have been around for decades. Lenovo sounds like some el cheapo brand put together by the local corner shop.

Re:misconception

[PsychoSlashDot]

>I guess the misconception is that the engineers are also overseas and therefore
>the quality of the goods are going to go down. [sarcasm]You see, the Chinese are
>only good at following instructions given to them by the Americans.[/sarcasm] But
>look at the Thinkpad/Lenovo T60: they are still very well-built machines, when
>compared to even the Powerbooks.

>It's terrible to think that a great brand is going to go out of existence because
>of unwarranted xenophobia. Imagine if we're stuck with Dell!

I'm an IBM/Lenovo reseller. I can't comment on the Thinkpad line in particular as I haven't moved very many of that product since the transition of brand ownership, but I can comment on the other product lines.

IBM has traditionally been a product line that I have been very, very comfortable selling. The manufacturing tolerances have been very high, and a lot of engineering effort was clearly invested in the design of the systems they sold. The NetVista, and ThinkCenter lines were both very high quality machines. All bays were prepped with screw-less mounting, sound-dampening studs, and the cases were designed to be easy-access, yet trivially securable. Internal cages were designed to swing clear of other parts, and additional mounting points were provided for user-added fans. Screws were placed into the pre-placed screw-holes, for the event a user ever needed them.

Now? Now Lenovo has managed to introduce _blue LEDs_ into the power-button so we know the unit is on. The cases have nice sturdy thumbscrews. Four of them. At opposite corners so you can't simply take off one side panel. The CD-ROM drive is often a slave on the same PATA controller as the hard drive, unless you're looking at one of the SATA models. Screws are required to mount any add-on hard drives or optical drives, and are certainly not provided anywhere in the chassis. But at least the face-plates are now a cheerful mix of black and grey. A whole 100% increase in plastic shades from the old all-black.

The fact is that Lenovo, in the admittedly lower-end brands has definitely sacrificed engineering efforts in order to do two things: 1} drop the manufacturing price and 2} make the machines LOOK sexier.

People who buy IBM usually don't buy IBM for sexy looks, or for price. They buy for brand-recognition (which isn't a good enough reason to buy something), and quality of product (which is). Lenovo has started CLEARLY transitioning away from that market.

IBM sold the PC division to Lenovo because it wasn't profitable enough to them. I get that. This won't help.

Final statement: the Intellistation series of workstation-class desktops remains owned by IBM. The machines continue to be manufactured for IBM by Lenovo. And continue to be stellar. Still, I can only assume the Thinkpad brand will follow the Netvista and Thinkcenter brands into mass-market blue LED mediocrity.

Re:misconception

[evilviper]

I think there's a perception (wrong or not) that companies based in Western nations are more accountable than companies based in China.

You're close, but not quite on the mark.

What drives me crazy about Chinese products is that brand-names are a dime a dozen.

IBM would spend significant ammounts to make sure nothing associated with IBM is regarded as poor quality. The brand is worth a lot to them. To a lesser extent, the same is true of Dell, HP, etc.

Enter China. Start a company named "Apex", manufacture cheap DVD players that actually work quite well and get a good reputation in the US. Then cash-in on that reputation by churning out with model after model of junk, priced well in excess of what it's worth. Now that nobody would ever consider buying Apex DVD player again, change your name to "CyberHome" and start churning out more cheap junk. When people catch-on to that one, just change your brand-name again. Or even better, buy a well-known, but failed brand like "Polaroid", and cash-in by selling complete junk products to people loyal to the brand (who probably don't know it was sold to some 2-bit Chinese junk manufacturer).

American (and European) brands tell you what level of quality you can expect, with a few exceptions (ie. Sony).

Re:misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, they have to play by US rules in order to sell to US customers.

Re:misconception

[slackmaster2000]

I stopped buying Thinkpads when the Lenovo thing happened. It's not racism, and it's not that I think the quality will be less. It's simply that I don't feel like supporting a Chinese-owned company because I don't support the Chinese government. Sure, I know that it's nearly impossible to buy anything that doesn't have some if not most components manufactured in China, but this one is a no-brainer for me.

At this time I buy almost all of my machines, laptops and workstations, from Systemax (well, from a Systemax vendor). They're all very well priced and manufactured in the US. Plus I can open them up and recognize all the components, and everything is replacable with stock parts. Sure, they don't use the hottest hardware, but for business class machines they've been great to me for the past 7 or so years (I've used about 50 machines from them in total...and the only ones that gave me grief had MSI 6330 motherboards, which somebody should have started a class action over). I will say that I prefered Thinkpads over Systemax laptops because Thinkpads are much more rugged (aside from having horrible hard drives). On the other hand, it's a lot easier to get all the drivers for an aging Systemax laptop than an older IBM laptop because, again, all stock components...no funny business.

A few years ago I sent back an IBM server because it was manufactured in Mexico. Actually, it arrived damaged and I was going to exchange it when I noticed its origin, at which point I just asked for my money back. This is a completely different scenario than the Lenovo one, as I simply don't think that it's necessary for IBM to be taking advantage of cheap labor to put together machines and then charging name-brand inflated prices. I ended up ordering a custom server using a really nice Intel chasis put together by a California company and paid a little less for higher specs, with warranty and all.

Re:misconception

[Kadin2048]

Because Lenovo is based out of Hong Kong, which is predominantly (to the best of my knowledge) a Cantonese-speaking area, although I expect you could get along with Mandarin there pretty well also.

I have no idea where their design facilities are within China, I was basing my comment solely on their headquarters.

Re:misconception

[FreakWent]

yes they are.

Re:misconception

[Horatio_Hellpop]

So ... your definition of a crappy laptop is one that runs reliably with little or no problems over three years?

Great logic, that.

"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?"

[Anonymous Coward]

about 200 million Americans shopping in Wallmart ?
everybody has their price, just some can be bought for less

Because I say so

[Rydia]

"I think that Lenovo is losing market share. I think it's because people don't trust them. Hold on and I think of some reasons why I think I think that."

Come on, guys.

Re:Because I say so

[Rydia]

"I'll think of"

Re:Because I say so

[mgblst]

It is because they added in the windows key - nobody really wants a windows key, and here we are seeing the backlash against lenovo. (good a reason as any)

Personally, i would only but an IBM laptop, no other machine approaches the quality (maybe apple). I hope they aren't going down the tubes, or I will need to get a T43 - the best of the pre-lenovo crop.

Re:Because I say so

[phasm42]

I don't think the problem is so much that Lenovo is Chinese, but rather that Lenovo is not IBM. IBM has a reputation for building solid machines. If HPaq or eMachines had bought the Thinkpad line, I think you'd see a similar decline.

Re:Because I say so

[Tibor the Hun]

speaking of apple, I've had my 4 year old son step on my closed ibook, had it fall off the table once, and just last week a can of sprite leaked all over it (after I pulled the iBook out of the bag, the sprite was running and dripping out of it.) hasn't skipped a beat... (knock on wood)

Re:Because I say so

[ArtDent]

Seriously, is this article supposed be a joke? Quick summary:

Lenovo bought IBM's ThinkPad division.
None of my friends buy ThinkPads anymore.
No one wants to buy from a Chinese company. That's not sensible, but it's sensible.
Lenovo doesn't command the brand premium like IBM could.
Lenovo still has high prices, so they maybe might perhaps lose marketshare.
Please lower prices, please?

Re:Because I say so

[WinterSolstice]

I agree entirely. There are very few times when a line can change hands dramatically without it suffering a decline in service.

-WS

Re:Because I say so

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. It's that they're not IBM. I bought a T43 shortly after the buyout, so it's made by Lenovo but still very much seems like and IBM, so it's sort of a little of each. I was skeptical when I found out that the ThinkPads and the rest were bought out by another company, but figured they couldn't have done too much damage yet, and that was true. I like this computer. But, I don't know anything about Lenovo, and nobody else seems to have heard of them either. IBM is different; everybody in North America knows who IBM is. For me it has nothing to do with Lenovo being from China - I really don't care, and everything's a global business anyway. But I trust IBM, and have good reason for doing so. If I'm going to buy another computer from Lenovo after this one reaches the end of it's lifespan, I'm going to need to be shown that I can trust Lenovo too. The closer the relationship with IBM, the better. Changes like adding a Windows key and producing cheaper-looking computers are definitely steps in the wrong direction. Changes like offering computers without Windows at all and considering including IBM's new Cell processors if they're as good as promised would be steps in the right direction. So, which will it be Lenovo?

Re:Because I say so

[dimension6]

Panasonic is very high quality (but difficult to find in the US). Fujitsu and Sony also make some really high quality notebooks (the ones manufactured in Japan tend to be highest quality).

Quality still as good?

[t482]

Friend of mine just got a new T series laptop and the keys fell off. After 10 Thinkpads he thinks the quality isn't quite as good and that they are cutting corners to make more money.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

Re:Quality still as good?

[dreemernj]

Yes, but not me personally. We have a few laptops at our office that are for general use and have been using thinkpads since they came with P166s. As a matter of fact those P166s are still here and running and have had no problems (aside from defective user errors) since we got them. But, then we got a couple of Lenovo Thinkpad X41s and aside from the poor performance for the money the things were built like eMachines. And not even todays eMachines, eMachines circa 1998. Now we have HPs.

Re:Quality still as good?

[Part`A]

But the X41 came out when Thinkpads was still IBM... right?

Re:Quality still as good?

[dreemernj]

No. Not right.

Re:Quality still as good?

[Part`A]

Fine, I went and checked -

Press release for the X41 - April 5, 2005
http://www.lenovo.com/news/us/en/2005/04/x41.html

Lenovo Completes Acquisition of IBM's Personal Computing Division - May 1, 2005
http://www.lenovo.com/news/us/en/2005/05/dayone.ht ml

So all the work for the X41 was done by the time the PC division was actually sold off, but not before they agreed to sell it. I still say the X41 was an IBM model. So if it was a bad design, it would've had nothing to do with Lenovo management.

Re:Quality still as good?

[Anonymous Coward]

When do you sell your used car? When it's starting to go to shit.

Re:Quality still as good?

[GIL_Dude]

I just got a T60 and the keys are still on. It seems like a solid machine - but of course I have had it for all of three days now. But it's a screamer (speed wise, not hard drive noise). Certainly seems to be built just like prior IBMs (I have a T40 and a T43 as well).

Re:Quality still as good?

[jrieth50]

No. Since last October my younger brother bought a T43, I purchase a T42, my older brother purchased a T43p, and my roommate purchased a T43 - all of them in excellent working order. The most recent one arrived to my roommate last month and aside from being the 15" vs. my 14" monitor - it looks/feels/runs no different than the one I purchased in October - or any other Thinkpad I've owned before.

I think people need to get some perspective - Dell Laptops have been crap for years according to every Dell laptop owner I've ever known (many...) and Toshiba laptops are known for quality but as a Thinkpad owner I hate to imagine owning one as they really do feel flimsy and cheaply built right out of the box - and the keys are built like buttons (what's that about?)

Re:Quality still as good?

[umedia]

I purchase both the T series and X series for the office. I had noticed that the T series had degraded about a year ago; Keys falling off and poor performance. This was before Leveno entered the picture. My users still like the X series however, although a few complained about speed. Frankly laptop quality across the board is lacking as I've tried a couple of Dells as well.

Not to be Xenophobic but it was alarming when Lenovo Released China's "First Security Chip"(Hengzhi), approved by the State Encryption Administration (backdoor for Big Red Bro). Yes, it's only for computers made for the Chinese population but it makes you cautious and perhaps will make Leveno a hard sell.

Re:Quality still as good?

[the_ed_dawg]

My IBM ThinkPad R40 has been a tank. The one time I needed something done on it (NIC plug came loose), IBM sent me a next-day air box (by next day air) and had my laptop back to me in two days (one of which was spent in next-day air). :)

However, I ordered a new battery for my Thinkpad R40 and a Mini-PCI wireless card (damn BIOS lock!) from Lenovo. They (a) sent me a battery that didn't fit with my R40 and (b) sent me a wireless card that failed the BIOS check. I spent forever on the phone with customer service to get a RMA. Service was unsatisfactory compared to IBM.

Having lost hope in the last good PC vendor, my next machine will be a Macintosh.

Re:Quality still as good?

[Dan Ost]

Dell Laptops have been crap for years according to every Dell laptop owner I've ever known

My work laptop is a Dell and it's a fine machine with the following exceptions:
1. Crappiest keyboard I've ever had on a laptop
2. Broadcom wireless chipset has no native Linux support. It works with ndiswrapper, but I don't trust it.

Re:Quality still as good?

[dreemernj]

There wasn't much of a changing of hands. Its a Lenovo computer, it was built by what had been IBM's personal computer division. Lenovo gained 10,000 employees when they made the deal with IBM, more then doubling their company's size. I definately see what you are saying about how IBM's management would have been involved in the development of the X41, but that same management is probably still in place to some extent in Lenovo. Perhaps there are quality issues with the Lenovos because they inherited them from IBM.

I can't say why the quality now sucks on the Thinkpad, I just know that it does, and the big change in the quality came with this merger. The first thinkpad I tried that seemed to exhibit this quality problem was the X41. I am hoping it gets improved in time. I'm not going to discount later ThinkPads because of this because no company has given me any adequate reason to feel any kind of brand loyalty.

Perhaps these recent Thinkpads are suffering just because of the merger? Were there dips in quality like this as a result of other large scale computer manufacturer mergers?

Re:Quality still as good?

[Anonymous Coward]

...IBM sent me a next-day air box (by next day air)...

Really? I thought they shipped next-day air by ground...

Re:Quality still as good?

[haystd]

I recently had the same issue with the mini-pci wireless card upgrade from Lenovo failing the bios check on a T41. Lenovo Tech Support had me remove the card, upgrade the embedded controller firmware and the system bios, and reinstall the card which then worked. Apparently the newer bios has more (IBM/Lenovo) cards added to it's supported list.

Re:Quality still as good?

[hax4bux]

My T42 is the 3rd IBM laptop for me, but it might be the last. The first two worked quite well, but my T42 required multiple service attempts to fix the same problem. I can understand having to send out for repair once, but after that I get a little irritated. Thinkpads are expensive and I *really* need mine on a daily basis.

I have had this T42 for two years (pre-Lenovo) was it was drop shipped from Hong Kong. Apparently China has been the source of ThinkPads for years.

Based on my repair experience, I will be comparison shopping for my next laptop.

P.S. The LINUX Thinkpad mailing list is another excellent reason to buy a ThinkPad.

Re:Quality still as good?

[tiocsti]

While I don't have a lot of experience with prior models of thinkpads, I have used some older thinkpad models, and they were always quite good. I bought a T43 though, and it was really substandard. It was just a dell laptop in a thinkpad casing, falling apart quite rapidly (much more so than my powerbook, for example).

Overall, I don't think the build quality of thinkpads these days is any greater than that found at dell or what have you.

Re:Quality still as good?

[aqfire]

Unfortunately I've run into a few problems myself. I had an R51 that would shut off randomly. I had a T41 and an R51 that would lock up when the power was pulled out or put in. I had some R51s that would lock up when wireless was detected (that issue was fixed by a driver update). These machines aren't perfect, but overall I think they're a solid choice compared to the others out there. I started buying onsite warranties, because the service is still very good, and ultimately laptops are very complex, so no matter what brand you buy, that is probably the most important thing. I sent the laptops to the repair center (depot repair) and it was fixed and shipped back the next day, and have had no problems with it since. I also have about 10 T42s and T43s that have had no problems whatsoever (we stopped buying the R series). So, I think overall it's still a good brand.

Come to think of it, most of the problems I had were with IBM branded laptops, right before the switch was made to Lenovo. So, maybe the Quality Control wasn't as good during the switch. Any other experiences to note?

Re:Quality still as good?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am currently upto my forth rebuild of the current R52 (same bloody problem, time-in/time-out). All-in-all it is a nice workhorse but I honestly don't think I will purchase and IBM/Lenovo simply due to the lack of customer service and the turn around time is four days for ANYTHING.

Still prefer acer.

Irony

[GrAfFiT]

The irony is that all these companies contract out (I could also include Apple here) to the same few manufacturers, all either in China or Taiwan..

Re:Irony

[mjpaci]

I don't think it's the fact that they're made in China. Apple's laptops are assembled somewhere over there (don't recall if it's Taiwan or the main land) and they're good quality. It's the QA and the attention to detail that the mother company (Lenovo/Apple/HP/Toshiba) demands of the contract manufacturer. Maybe Lenovo isn't as strict as IBM was? Maybe they're using a different manufacturer. Who knows. We use IBM desktops and ThinkPads here and have since ~2003. I have not heard anything bad about the new Lenovo machines - but then again I haven't really been paying too much attention. I will ask today and post more if it's bad...

--Mike

Re:Irony

[fafaforza]

Sure, ThinkPads for years have been manufactured in the same places that other laptops are. But with Lenovo's purchase, the design and decision making would likely move from US engineers and designers and to Lenovo's.

Would that make a difference? I tend to think so. IBM didn't rely on the ThinkPads for most of its revenue. As a result, there was a slow cycle of development where proven things were kept in the laptop and it hadn't changed in many major ways for years. Still black, still the same awesome keyboard, still the trackpoint.

Now with Lenovo, you have a hardware company that is keen on outperforming its rivals and being the biggest PC supplier. I haven't been considering a new laptop purchase, but from what I've seen on Lenovo's website, they are already adding gimmicky things like white marks on the top to indicate where various ports are, making bulky wide screen models, etc. How long til the built-in multi card readers, and blue neon lights all around the case? The risk is that with a reliance on the ThinkPad brand, and a market share to grow, the T line will start undergoing very short developmental cycles with lenovo throwing in any new ideea they think up and seeing how it works out, breaking what makes ThinkPads ThinkPads. At that point, you might as well get an HP.

Re:Irony

[BruceCage]

but from what I've seen on Lenovo's website, they are already adding gimmicky things like white marks on the top to indicate where various ports are

Let's not forget about the fancy smancy Windows key they put on it.

Re:Irony

[ivan256]

The problem isn't who made the hardware, or where the hardware was made. The problem is who is selling, and more importantly, supporting it.

IBM had a reputation for excelent service. Even if they told everybody their laptops were made by some Chinese company and could be bought without the label for half price, businesses would still have bought the IBM product because they want the support that comes with an IBM product. Perhaps Lenovo didn't realize that when they made their purchase? Either way, if they want to retain those customers they need to build a support organization, and they need to make sure everybody knows they've built it.

Re:Irony

[mcbridematt]

Apple's laptops are assembled somewhere over there (don't recall if it's Taiwan or the main land)

ASUS in Taiwan with Power/MacBook shells coming from Japan, I believe.

My PowerBook 12" says "Assembled in China" if that means anything, but it can mean either one afaik. I've heard definite confirmation that the iBooks are made by ASUS (they recently got a contract for the iBook replacement, too), presumably Power/MacBooks come from the same place.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

My last PB G4 shipped from Shanghai. I doubt they manufacture them in Taiwan and send them to the mainland first, before shipping to the US.

Re:Irony

[WhiteWolf666]

When I purchased my MacBook Pro (from a retail store, (Microcenter)), it was still in the shipping box, and had a "from Shanghai" sticker on it.

I'm guess its not that people think Lenovo is bad, they just don't equate Lenovo with IBM.

It's not that Lenovo is a minus. It's that IBM is a plus. That's all. Take away the "plus", and sales go down, even if you have the exact same production process and support system.

Re:Irony

[octaene]

Apple's laptops are assembled somewhere over there (don't recall if it's Taiwan or the main land) and they're good quality.

Actually, that's not correct. While 9 of the top 10 PC retailers do use components made in China by Chinese companies, Apple is the 1 of 10 that doesn't. Oh, I think that you're right about the 'good quality' part.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

"making bulky wide screen models"

Apparently from what I've been told, because there are so few LCD manufacturers and they don't want to make "normal" sized laptop screens anymore, most laptop companies don't really have a choice but to switch to Wide Screen LCDs.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

But with Lenovo's purchase, the design and decision making would likely move from US engineers and designers and to Lenovo's.

The Thinkpad design team has been based in Japan for about seven years now, I believe. Lenovo has stated since day one that they have no plans to change the design process. IBM also has the support contract on Lenovo PC's for something like 10 years, so service and support should also be non-issues.

Re:Irony

[IntlHarvester]

It seems to me that where a computer is finally assembled is the least important part. They take a high-tech CPU from Malaysia, a high-tech motherboard from China, and a high-tech LCD from Korea, and then a low-tech worker somewhere screwdrivers it all together.

Dell does it's PC assembly in the US, but you can hardly call it high-tech manufacturing. More like sticking legos together.

Also Who|Where it's built is not really that important because they bin-sort the parts based on each OEM's quality standards. Motherboard passes all the tests with flying colors? It goes to Apple or IBM. Borderline? It ends up in a consumer Compaq. Fails a few? Ends up in a generic model.

Re:Irony

[dslbrian]

Let's not forget about the fancy smancy Windows key they put on it.

Argh, the most worthless keys ever added to a keyboard. Whoever invented that complete waste of space that serves no purpose other than to diminish the size of the space/alt/control keys needs to be taken out back and beat to a pulp. Another tragedy of microsoft's innovation at work...

Re:Irony

[TubeSteak]

laptops are assembled somewhere over there (don't recall if it's Taiwan or the main land)

Not to be picky, but depending on who you ask, Taiwan != China.

It's kind of a sensitive subject for both Taiwan and China.

Re:Irony

[Leto-II]

"Assembled in China" if that means anything, but it can mean either one afaik.

Usually if it's manufactured in Taiwan it will say "Republic of China" and if it's done in the mainland it will say "China" or "People's Republic of China."

Re:Irony

[Dhalka226]

I like it. Not because I found it's typical function very useful, but in KDE (at least, and probably others) you can use it like the ctrl/alt modifier keys and assign keyboard shortcuts with it. Makes me feel better for some unexplainable psychological reason, and I'm also much less likely to try to pick a combination that's already used somewhere else this way--at least for the time being.

Re:Irony

[alonsoac]

assuming that they would actually do what you are saying, have a shorter cycle and try new things, the same argument could be used to say that they have good stuff coming and that perhaps one of those new things will happen to be something you want. There is too much speculation and too little comparison of actual products. If someone checked out an HP and a Lonovo and liked the HP that's cool, but that's not what I am reading.

Re:Irony

[sniperu]

Thing is, if you happen to spend 99% of your computer time in Windows , that little windows key is the greatest thing ever:

WinKey + R -> Run -> cmd / winword / gpedit.msc (I start 80% of programs this way, just add the folder to PATH)
WinKey + E -> Explorer (yup, great timesaver)
WinKey + D -> Show the desktop
WinKey + F -> Find


We just got a few wide-screen Toshibas and I can't get why they didn't include it, case they certainly have the space... It's killing me .

Re:Irony

[quacking duck]

Thing is, if you happen to spend 99% of your computer time in Windows , that little windows key is the greatest thing ever:

WinKey + R -> Run -> cmd / winword / gpedit.msc (I start 80% of programs this way, just add the folder to PATH)
WinKey + E -> Explorer (yup, great timesaver)
WinKey + D -> Show the desktop
WinKey + F -> Find

A couple others I normally use:
WinKey + L -> instantly lock Windows, rather than ctrl-alt-delete, then clicking "lock Windows" (or whatever the button is; I'm not using Windows right now)
WinKey + M -> Minimize all windows (not quite the same as WinKey + D, which hides ALL windows and dialog boxes; WinKey + M won't minimize windows if they have a task demanding your attention)

Re:Irony

[WilliamSChips]

I agree. The lightweight WM I'm using, pekwm, uses the "Windows" key(which X, and therefore pekwm, actually calls Mod4) extensively, and it's useful. Most people who don't like the Windows key don't like it because of its name. I don't like the name either.

Re:Irony

[Nikker]

Well I love thier laptops I just got one and I'm on the phone with tech support to fix one little problem ...

[DoorKnock/] Hello? Who?... I'm going to Camp? ahhhhhhhhhh ........

NO CARRIER

Wait a minute...

[nule.org]

I was under the impression that if you didn't want to buy a laptop "made in China" that you pretty much couldn't buy a laptop? Am I wrong?

Re:Wait a minute...

[gnuyarlathotep]

Fujitsu Lifebooks are still made in Japan. I have one, it's fantastic, but my goodness you pay for it.

smells like racism to me

[bazmail]

"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?"

about 20% of goods on sale in the US originate from china. what gives. Is it because Lenovo come rightout and admit to being chinese? This smacks of racism. Am I wrong?

Quote says it all...

[Anonymous Coward]

"In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads have now traded up to an HP or a Toshiba. "

'Traded up' to me sounds like a perceived statement rather than a hard fact. Maybe using switched, migrated or moved might've been closer to the truth?

It'd also be interesting to see whether these people have migrated solely because Lenovo now produce the Thinkpad range, or because they needed a new laptop. Personally, I can't think of anyone I know that's had a problem with Lenovo just because they're Chinese, and I would probably only blacklist them on a basis of first hand experience of problems with their support, rather than just bailing on them for no reason.

Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically the Thinkpad is rebranded Packard Bell

Re:Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[squiggleslash]

I've looked it up and I don't see anything linking Legend Group (not "Legend Systems) and Packard Bell, or Lenovo and Packard Bell. Packard Bell is nominally independent, though NEC and Groupe Bull own large stakes.

Re:Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[Aphrika]

"Basically the Thinkpad is rebranded Packard Bell"

Ah sorry, that's not true.

Packard bell are owned by NEC, and Lenovo used to be known as Legend. They are not the same company, nor linked. However, they may use the same ODMs (Original Design Manufacturers) for some of their kit - IIRC the 3000 series Lenovo is made by Compal who also makes a lot of the HP kit.

However, the Thinkpad range has always been manufactured by Quanta. They also make laptops for Sony and Dell and are well respected in the industry, along with other top-tier ODMs like Celestica, Flextronics and Wistron.

Re:Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[ArhcAngel]

I was working in the quality lab for Compaq's mobile group during the merger between them and HP and I can tell you Quanta built several of their consumer models. The electrical design and outer dimensions were done by Compaq engineers but the actual board layout and circuit routing was done by Quanta. The design and build quality were LESS than optimal. I would not buy anything I knew came from Quanta.

Re:Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is that is becoming harder and harder to do. Given that Quanta makes laptops for among others, Apple, Dell, HP, Gateway, Asus and whomever else its getting quite hard to find something not made by them. Like any contract manufacturer your contract has to specify tolerances and service level agreements. I agree that compaq computers I had used in jobs have been junk, but at the same time, the HP laptop I received 5 months later was a dream. Gonna be hard pressed to find an apple owner who hasnt been happy with their products.

Performance

[therage96]

For me, its not the fact that they are a Chinese manufacturer, but rather the performance of their computers is just not there.

Its the same as it was when Thinkpad was still an IBM product, they were tight little systems with perhaps a few cool features (butterfly keyboard anyone?), but when it came to the actual performance of the machine, competitors always beat them and at a cheaper price too.

Now if this is still true or not, I'm not sure, but that is my "impression" of the Thinkpad brand still leftover from the old IBM days.

Re:Performance

[Anonymous Coward]

...when Thinkpad was still an IBM product, they were tight little systems with perhaps a few cool features (butterfly keyboard anyone?), but when it came to the actual performance of the machine, competitors always beat them and at a cheaper price too.

Hmmm, maybe, but when my clients ask me about a laptop, I still recommend a used Thinkpad over a new "anything else". The damned things never die! I still have a Thinkpad that is 12 years old that runs perfectly. Nobody ever discards a Thinkpad because it is broken, just because it went obsolete. I hope Lenovo keeps that part of the tradition.

Re:Performance

[OS24Ever]

Who cares if it's a little slower. I much prefer the fact that a 280lb geek could step on one closed 600E on the floor at 2AM and not break the screen, or a hatchback is opened and your bag was open and your T21 bounces out onto the pavement and you open it up and it works fine, or a X40 gets a full bottle of Jones Berry Cola poured into it and other than a black cherry-licious smell it keeps working (ok so I replaced the keyboard a few weeks later)

Now a 32 oz glass of tea into a T21 didn't fair nearly as well, but that's a lot of liquid. I was impressed I yanked the power cord in like 0.2 seconds but it kept running on that little thing called a battery.

Hard drive was fine though.

Slight Disclaimer: I work for em, and no matter what happens to them they get repaired, but so far I've not managed to do much to them that requires it, and I'm not gentle with my systems. I shudder to think if I treated the Dell, HPs or Toshibas (little while since I've used on of the Toshibas though). I see bits-o-plastic everywhere.

Re:Performance

[Anonymous Coward]

"a 280lb geek"

You must be built like Arnold to weigh that much!

Re:Performance

[lubricated]

or perhaps like rosie o'donell

Though at microsoft we used to call them the Exchange team.

Re:Performance

[just_forget_it]

"Who cares if it's a little slower"

I care, and a lot of other people do too. Performance is very important to me. I'm not going to pay over $1000 for only slightly higher, or even the same specs on my current 5-year-old machine.

"I much prefer the fact that a 280lb geek could step on one closed 600E on the floor at 2AM and not break the screen, or a hatchback is opened and your bag was open and your T21 bounces out onto the pavement and you open it up and it works fine, or a X40 gets a full bottle of Jones Berry Cola poured into it and other than a black cherry-licious smell it keeps working (ok so I replaced the keyboard a few weeks later)"

Here's a little something you might want to know: most people take care of their things, we all learned this in kindergarden. Sure, accidents happen, you spill things, whatever, but a computer is not a dinner plate and should not be treated as one. Did you pay for your laptop yourself? I'd hate to see what shape the rest of your stuff is in.

"Slight Disclaimer: I work for em, and no matter what happens to them they get repaired, but so far I've not managed to do much to them that requires it, and I'm not gentle with my systems. I shudder to think if I treated the Dell, HPs or Toshibas (little while since I've used on of the Toshibas though). I see bits-o-plastic everywhere."

That's great, except that the purpose of a computer is to do work, not double as a dinner plate.

Re:Performance

[evilviper]

but when it came to the actual performance of the machine, competitors always beat them and at a cheaper price too.

Yes, IBMs laptops were slightly slower than the competition, but for that slight drop in speed, you'd get TWICE the battery life of just about any other notebook.

It really amazes me that, no matter how much more effecient electronics get, notebooks continue to get the same 3hr battery life they did 10+ years ago. With the exception of IBM and Toshiba, it seems like they go out of they way to reduce the size of their batteries, and use higher-power components, to keep the runtime down to 3hours.

As for the price, like anything else, you usually get what you pay for.

Re:Performance

[OS24Ever]

I'd hate to see what shape the rest of your stuff is in.

The above accidents I referenced were over a 8 year period.

The 'rest of my stuff' looks brand new, as does my current thinkpad. My point being, accidents happen, and they're pretty robust by comparison to others I've had (Toshiba, HP). Also 99% of the laptops out there have 98% of the identical internal bits and pieces in them, I'll take reliability & durability over 2% performance difference.

Re:Performance

[just_forget_it]

I can definently agree with that. I did some research too and found that Lenovo's offerings are actually cheaper than Dell in the high-end. The one set of specs I checked Lenovo was close to $400 less.

As far as Chinese quality, I have a very nice wool coat made in China that has so far proved extremely durable. People have this perception that all Chinese product is flimsy like the crap they sell at Wal-Mart, but there is quite a big difference in quality control standards between companies selling a camping knife for $2 and a laptop for $2000

Perception

[a_nonamiss]

As a country, we prove ourselves irrationally xenophobic again and again. From the Dubai Ports World deal to people not buying laptops because they're "Chinese." What people don't know is that not much has changed since Lenovo bought the right to produce Thinkpads. They still use the same suppliers, and the manufacture is still basically the same. Thinkpads still kick ass, and I challenge anyone to find a laptop that isn't made primarily overseas.

Re:Perception

[tweek]

I disagree.

I made the same argument to my boss after the Lenovo deal (we're a big IBM shop) and here was his (and our board's) rationale:

There is a difference between buying a laptop from a company where the profits of the entire laptop sale itself go to the company vs. the profits of the entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

And you know what, it makes sense to me.

Face it, the profit from the components is nowhere NEAR what it is for the total machine. IBM and all the other vendors took the cheap cost of the components and slapped them together, added a logo and marked them up. Now that markup is going straight into the pocket of Lenovo, a wholly owned Chinese company.

I'm all for free market and the power of global trade but in this case, the market forces seem to be speaking and saying "We can't get away from the parts being bought from communist China but we can choose to not buy a Chinese laptop."

Is it xenophobic? Not really. Hypocritical? Yeppers.

Re:Perception

[Overzeetop]

I would disagree. I would instead say that we are a culture who blindly purchases brand names with very little actual research into performance. Sytle is everything. IBM has style. Lenovo doesn't. Nobody want's a middling performance, ugly laptop/ Lets' face it - IBM thinkpads have never been speed demons, and they are the butt-ugliest, clunky-looking laptops out there. But IBM - I B M - now that's a name that means confidence and performance. And premium prices mean premium goods.

Lenovo. Well, this "new" (to American ears) Chinese company may have bought the ThinkPad name, but there no IBM. Nosireebob. We need something that stands for quality. A company that would never cut corners. A solid performer that believes in quality over raw profits. Those boys at Hewlett Packard have been around forever and I know that name. It must stand for a good product. So now that IBM, the venerable old company, is not producing laptops, we'll go with HP. Rock solid, I tell you. (Yes everything about HP is tongue in cheek...Thanks, Carly).

This has very little to do with xenophobia, and much to do with brand recognition.

I think you sum up my point well, "... I challenge anyone to find a laptop that isn't made primarily overseas." And yet, we buy them by the landfill-load. It's not about where they're made, it's about what name is on the cover. It's no different than the way be buy cars, clothes, appliances, and consumer electronics. Nobody would buy Lenovo bought Nike people woudn't buy Lenovo athletic shoes - even if they made them in the same Chinese factory.

Re:Perception

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

No, this isn't racism or xenophobia. The last generation of IBM Thinkpads were/are crap, the T series (especially the T21 and its Deathstar drive). Lenovo basically bought a soiled brand and IBM was happy to give it to them.

Re:Perception

[kannibal_klown]

I would disagree. I would instead say that we are a culture who blindly purchases brand names with very little actual research into performance. Sytle is everything. IBM has style. Lenovo doesn't.

I don't know about that. ThinkPads were pretty dull looking. My current work Thinkpad (P2 1.6) looks like a friggin Yugo, and the new ones I've seen don't look as sleek/stylish as some of the Dells, Apples, or Alienwares. However, I've always classified them in their own category: Quality Windows-Based.

What I always liked about Thinkpads is their rugged construction and stability. My Thinkpads have always been the most stable laptops I've used personally and professionally and they've been able to take one hell of a beating from International commuting without taking any damage. Sure, my PowerBook is also pretty decent about that but my job requires a Windows laptop so Apple is out when it comes to work (though the MacBook is interesting).

I haven't looked into Lenovo yet as I'm not in the market for a new Laptop. However, when it's time for a new one I'll definately give them a look to see if they've kept at least some of the design features I liked from the old IBM Thinkpads. I'll also wait to read reviews about the stability to see if that's suffered any.

I try not to cast judgements on products before at least testing them out in person.

Re:Perception

[forgotten_my_nick]

> There is a difference between buying a laptop from a
> company where the profits of the entire laptop sale
> itself go to the company vs. the profits of the
> entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

Err, what are you on about? Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese government, nor does its profits go to the Chinese government (least nothing over and beyond what IBM would of had to pay when they owned them).

Your bosses seem a bit thick.

Re:Perception

[IntlHarvester]

So now that IBM, the venerable old company, is not producing laptops, we'll go with HP. Rock solid, I tell you.

There's something to that. There's many companies out there that run Dell Desktops, Dell Servers, Dell Laptops ... until you get to the executive suite, where it's IBM ThinkPad all the way. Which of course is a complete pain in the ass from an IT perspective.

The Levano models come out, they're supposedly the same. But they aren't quite. The buttons are cheaper and fuglier. The lids are shiney rather than black rubber. The keyboard layout is a little different. The docking stations aren't compatible anymore. Anyone looking for an excuse to get rid of the ThinkPads has just found several.

Re:Perception

[shmergin]

Im not usually a grammar/spelling nazi, but i can't let this one slide. You made a typo, should have read: "Is it xenophobic? Yes. Hypocritical? Yeppers." We (i say 'we' as the world, and not the default American 'we' that is spoken about so often in these parts) are all happy to buy our cheap laptops from Western companies who are exploiting eastern companies who are exploiting cheap eastern labour. When said companies build up enough wealth to take on the weatern companies then all of a sudden we become wary of buying from them, lest they become too rich or powerful. Lenovo paid a large sum of money to take over the thinkpad name and are building basically the same product. Not buying a product for the sole reason that you dont want the profits to go to another country (and make that country richer/more powerful) is xenophobia at work (fear or hatred of foreigners; in this case, fear).

Re:Perception

[Pollardito]

he forgot the golden rule: when american companies have poor sales in asia it's called "national pride", and when americans would rather buy from an american company than one from asia it's oppression and xenophobia.

i buy stuff made overseas all the time, but i think i speak for a lot of us when i say that all things being equal it makes sense to buy it from an american company. so the question is, these laptops were being sold by IBM and now they're being sold by Lenovo, were they getting sales before that were just "benefit of the doubt" sales based on the reputation of the company and good will for an american firm, or were they legitimately better? if they were mostly based on reputation and good will, then Lenovo didn't really buy that.

Re:Perception

[shmergin]

This is a different situation from an american company having poor sales in an asian country. If a chinese product is not successful in the American market then the company has to find a way to address whatever issues (hardware or cultural) that are stopping it from being successful. Here we have a situation where the product and manufacturing process has remained identical, and the PRIMARY reason for not buying said product is that it is now owned by a chinese company. "were they getting sales before that were just "benefit of the doubt" sales based on the reputation of the company and good will for an american firm, or were they legitimately better? if they were mostly based on reputation and good will, then Lenovo didn't really buy that." your wording is a little strange there so im not 100% sure if you are saying what i think you are, but the bottom line is that lenovo bought a name and a customer base.

Re:Perception

[houghi]

There is a difference between buying a laptop from a company where the profits of the entire laptop sale itself go to the company vs. the profits of the entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

I LOVE living in Europe. You get screwed here ALL the time.

Re:Perception

[xanalogical]

Perhaps his bosses believe that in a communist country, everything is owned by the government and no profits are distributed to the company. Something about anti-capitalism and government ownership of the means of production, straight out of the 1960s.

I have no direct experience with how chinese society/business operates but China seems more of a Bureaucratic society than a Communist one, with a hybrid economic system. They don't fit the very plain vanilla definition of Marxism I was taught in the US.

Definition: Bureaucracy is a sociological concept of government and its institutions as an organizational structure characterized by regularized procedure, division of responsibility, hierarchy, and impersonal relationships.

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

The ThinkPad I got a few months ago says "IBM" right on the top.
I'm a little confused, as I knew lenovo bought the thinkpad name but did they buy the right to put the name "IBM" on it too?

Re:Perception

[kokojie]

Actually Lenovo used to be owned by the Chinese government (As all company was owned by the government until the 1990s, when large scale privatization came about).

Re:Perception

[dubl-u]

As a country, we prove ourselves irrationally xenophobic again and again. From the Dubai Ports World deal to people not buying laptops because they're "Chinese."

It's not xenophobia (or more specifically, sinophobia) so much as the power of branding.

I type this on a Thinkpad bought just before the buyout. I went with it out of personal experience of older Thinkpads that were practically bulletproof, plus the knowledge that IBM had a brand to protect. They make a lot of money from high-end computers and absurdly expensive consulting and services. If the laptops were ever to become known as crappy, it would hurt perception of the place where they really make their money.

But Lenovo? Never heard of them. Will they have the same dedication to quality? Maybe. Do they have the same incentive to preserve the value of the brand? Not really. What do I know about Lenovo? Only that they're a Chinese company I've never heard of, trying to buy their way into the American market.

What does the "random Chinese manufacturer" brand say to me? Cheap but adequate disposable junk, the kind you buy at Walmart or Target. Which is fine for some things: I've got a $20 digital scale and a $50 DVD player that are both some random Chinese brand. If one breaks, I'll throw it and buy another. But for my laptop, which I expect to use so much I wear the letters off the keys? Fuck "cheap but adequate".

What people don't know is that not much has changed since Lenovo bought the right to produce Thinkpads.

Almost every merger I've seen begins with people saying that everything will be fine; nothing important will change. I'm sure it must have happened that way once or twice. Maybe it's really true for Lenovo, and in ten years I will happily buy another Thinkpad from them. But it will take them that long to earn my trust, just like it did for IBM and their Thinkpads.

Re:Perception

[jrieth50]

Short answer is 'no.' They went through a period of time where IBM's name would continue to be branded on Thinkpads, but that time has expired. But even the one's from the last year or so with IBM printed on them are made by Lenovo.

I purchased a T42 in October and I love it. It's every bit as good as any previous ThinkPad I've owned.

I have noticed on their site they're 'consumerizing' the Thinkpad - silver covers, wide-screens, constant television advertising, and a deal to sell the Thinkpad in Best Buy.

I think it will all work out for them most likely, they may lose the xenophobic but they're picking up consumers IBM never even bothered to court. And as long as they continue to make T-series laptops solid computing workhorses I could care less what they do with their XYZ3001 model or whatever they come up with.

Re:Perception

[muyuubyou]

> There is a difference between buying a laptop from a
> company where the profits of the entire laptop sale
> itself go to the company vs. the profits of the
> entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

Err, what are you on about? Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese government, nor does its profits go to the Chinese government (least nothing over and beyond what IBM would of had to pay when they owned them).

Your bosses seem a bit thick.

Reality check: Lenovo IS government owned.

Re:Perception

[WhiteWolf666]

The lines between Government owned, Government supported, and Private enterprise is _very_ blurry in China.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/15bspec.htm

I do think that the U.S. government should retaliate against China's "no one may own more than 49% of a Chinese company" policy. On the other hand, the macroeconomist inside me tells me that is a stupid position.

*shrug*. . . . Who knows? I do know that the Chinese domestic market is far from a fair one.

Re:Perception

[Chris Pimlott]

Legend Group Holdings, which is controlled by the Chinese government, owns a majority stake in Lenovo.

Source: Yahoo! Finance

Re:Perception

[Ilgaz]

Where are the blue suit IBM engineers in this new Lenovo Thinkpad IBMs?

All misses the point here. It is about huge corparate image near a century long of excellent,serious engineering and amazing research and development.

IBM logo doesn't mean anything on a Chinese manufacturer unless they invent a "G shock resistant laptop HD" or something.

This jumping up and down as "racist" must be an american "politically correct illness" thing too. There are even Chinese gave up buying IBM Thinkpad since they are not "real IBM" anymore.

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

Check your facts first. The deal included the right to use the IBM logo for 5 years.

Re:Perception

[LWATCDR]

Funny compared with most of the world the US is one of the least Xenophobic countries. In many countries it is very difficult for a citizen of an other country to own property. They US doesn't seem to be Xenophobic at all when it comes to giving foreign companies a far shot. If you want some examples how about Toyota, Kia, Samsung, Sony, Volkswagen, Honda, Yamaha, Fuji, Phillips, and BP? I guess you are right the US has a long history of not trusting none US companies. They are totally shut out of the US market!

The real aswer is this IBM is a multi-billion dollar corporation that has been around for how long? They have been in computers for how long? Now a company that we have never heard of bought the Thinkpad line? It doesn't help that the company is in China. Like it or not China does have a reputation for making cheap junk that doesn't last and has a terrible record of human rights abuses. Being a little bit leary of buying from them instead of IBM doesn't strike me as xenophobic at all. It just seems like a prudent decision.

Re:Perception

[Frumious Wombat]

The utilitarian style was part of the Thinkpad's appeal. It reminded you that the money had been spent on the durability, not the flash. I have (though it's been officially retired), an A22m, which still runs, despite being dropped on ice (I went down hard and got a large bruise that lasted weeks. The thinkpad made a sickening crack sound, and didn't even have cosmetic damage). It weighs over 7 lbs, has the high-res screen but only 8m video card, but is amazingly durable and has the nicest keyboard you could ask for. You can type all day on that keyboard without getting wrist-strain. My wife's 600E, despite being older yet, is still bright and clear, with an excellent keyboard, despite being a compact model. Thinkpads just feel good, and have the additional advantage of generally not wearing out prematurely.

Thinkpads were popular because they were built to last, and built to survive the Road Warrior breed of business traveler. The fear with Lenovo is probably that they're pushing into the consumer space, and are building consumer-grade laptops. With IBM, you came to expect stolid efficiency, and Lenovo is going to have to demonstrate a commitment to that as well.

As an aside, I had always hoped that pre-intel-switch, Apple would partner with IBM (ThinkPower? MacPad?), so that you could get an OS-X laptop with IBM build quality. Probably would have come in "His Steveness Sweater Black", just to differentiate it from the regular line-up.

Re:Perception

[jrieth50]

Sorry, I said "expired" - I meant forcefully removed IBM's branding - check your facts.

If you have one of the world's most recognized brands at your disposal, how fast do you jettison it in favor of marketing a new, unknown brand in its place?

When Lenovo, the Chinese maker of personal computers, bought International Business Machines' PC business for $1.75 billion in December 2004, the deal included the rights to use the IBM name for five years. Lenovo executives figured rightly that the IBM brand would still resonate in the U.S. market and serve to assuage the worries of existing and prospective customers of the IBM ThinkPad line of laptops. They realized there would be concern about buying from a China-based company that American customers had never heard of.

Yet Lenovo has moved far more swiftly to remove the IBM name from its brand-building venture than analysts and marketing experts had expected, leaving many wondering if Lenovo has abandoned the IBM brand too quickly.

Re:Perception

[daviddennis]

It really would be nice to have a PowerBook with a TrackPoint.

That's the one thing I miss about switching from ThinkPad to PowerBook.

The trackpad thing just doesn't work for me. I'm about 10x faster on a trackpoint ...

But I'm not about to go back to Windows or Linux to get one.

D

Re:Perception

[Surt]

I don't see the fear being obvious in his statements. I interpreted it as a concern about lending support to an oppressive regime. Concern for the well being of one's fellow man is neither fear nor hatred of foreigners. But maybe I'm reading too much into his original statement.

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese government

A majority stake is owned by the Chinese government, you super genious.

nor does its profits go to the Chinese government (least nothing over and beyond what IBM would of had to pay when they owned them).

Get serious. First, its profits do go to the Chinese governemnt, because the Chinese government has a controling stake. Second, when IBM was involved, IBM took some of the profits for themselves. Those profits are now going to the Chinese governement.

Do you have to work to be so stupid?

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, is that the same Chinese govt. that is propping up US Treasury Bills and our insatiable appetite for living large on borrowed money?

Re:Perception

[Dr. Blue]

Lets' face it - IBM thinkpads have never been speed demons, and they are the butt-ugliest, clunky-looking laptops out there.

Wow. I know that looks are subjective, but I've never heard anyone call a ThinkPad "ugly" or "clunky" before reading this (and a couple of other postings here -- but there are also a lot of people here who disagree with you).

I've got a T42, and it's sleek (pretty much the opposite of "clunky") and I really like the way it looks. I had a Dell before this -- now that was a clunky and ugly machine. Compared to the HPs and Toshibas that I see in stores areound here, the Thinkpad frankly puts the others to shame looks-wise...

Re:Perception

[Pollardito]

i was trying to say that they didn't buy the right name, they bought "ThinkPad" and not "IBM" and maybe people were buying it because of the other name. as someone else said, a certain percentage of their customers was willing to pay a premium for an IBM laptop (in the same way that many people will pay extra for an Apple computer or IPod), and perhaps those same people aren't as enamored of the name Lenovo. another set of customers bought IBMs because of their customer support, and maybe those same people aren't sure that they'll get the same service under the new regime.

what wasn't even addressed is that it's completely business-as-usual when an asian country encourages their citizens to only buy local products, but when it's a western country doing it suddenly it's a big scandal?

Re:Perception

[ivan256]

Oh, please.

Do you think most people even know that Lenovo is a Chinese company? They don't. No clue.

The fact of the matter is that consumers buy from companies with reputations they trust, and nobody has heard of Lenovo, so nobody trusts them. The fact of the matter is that companies buy from suppliers that can support them, and IBM had a world famous support organization. Lenovo doesn't.

Yes, the Dubai deal was xenophobic (though I wouldn't say it was irrational, since there was 'good' reason... It was all politics). That doesn't mean everything is though; even though it's popular to say negative things about the US and Americans (even if you live here).

Re:Perception

[flibuste]

I disagree. I own a lenovo-built T42 and it's the slickest, toughest, best functioning laptop I've owned in years. And about the FA, thinkpad's quality hasn't changed before and after Lenovo, since they've been built by them since a long while.

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I'm just now getting back up off the floor. IBM has lots of things, but style has *never* been one of them.
ahhh.... that was a good one.

Re:Perception

[Overzeetop]

I think the final buffing of the utilitarian, squared off case using $100 bills might be the thing that gets you. As you've read, IBMs line the boardroom table, but Dells populate the cubespace. Grace and Beauty are not terms that often get used in conjunction with the Hummer H1, but executives who dropped 100k on theirs will be very proud indeed. Most people who pay a premium are enamoured with the looks. Even if it looks ugly, it promotes envy if there's a big price tag stuck to it (and hence, improves its desirability).

Given a durable, fast machine - would the "typical consumer" purchase the one that looks like a thinkpad, or the one that looks like a powerbook? We already know what all those yuppy executives have in their pockets...and it's got white earphones. ;-)

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a perspective. Companies usually comply with secret service agencies of their native country. And no, I will not provide evidence for obvious reasons. But, I doubt that many future government agencies will purchase Thinkpads at this point. Consumers can choose what they want to do if this is not a concern.

Re:Perception

[forgotten_my_nick]

> Reality check: Lenovo IS government owned.

No its not. They have 27% shares in it. Thats all.

Re:Perception

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it is. They don't have it all, but they have control over it.

http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/lenovo/shares_info.html

Legend Holdings Limited (in turn, government controlled): 42.5%
"Public" (The Communist Party): 33.9%
IBM : 13.4%
TPG, General Atlantic and Newbridge Capital: 10.2%

Get your fact straight.

Re:Perception

[Grishnakh]

It depends on your style.

These days, no one wants sleek, simple, black things anymore. They want ugly, flashy, fake-silver-colored crap.

Look at cars: back in the 80s-90s, cars (good ones at least, not Ford trucks with ugly red interiors) used to have tasteful-looking interiors, with black dashboards, instruments with simple black backgrounds, etc. Now, cars have ugly "titanium"-colored dashboards or instruments. Of course, this stuff doesn't really look like nickel or silver or titanium; it just looks like colored plastic, which is all it is. You can also see this in car stereos. 10-15 years ago, all the nice car stereos were black, to match the black dashboards of the time. If you need a new stereo for your 10-year-old car now, good luck finding a black one! You'll probably end up with some ugly-ass silver-colored model that looks terribly out-of-place.

For some reason, everyone's gotten tired of simple black, and they want stuff in exotic metallic colors. But they're not willing to pay for genuine brushed nickel or titanium, so they get ugly colored plastic instead. It's just like the 50s and 60s when people wanted floors in their houses that looked like
ceramic tile, but were too cheap to use real tile, so they got crappy vinyl tile or sheet flooring instead, which of course looked absolutely nothing like real ceramic or stone tile. Strangely enough, ceramic tile is now very popular and everyone's installing it in their new or old houses (including me).

Re:Perception

[forgotten_my_nick]

"public" does not mean the all government party. The current shares count is about 27% owned by the chinese government.

http://www.shanghaiist.com/archives/2006/04/09/pc_ sales_irks_c.php

Re:Perception

[Grishnakh]

I guess you're one of those people that likes cheap, flashy-looking junk that looks old after one year.

Re:Perception

[xigxag]

I'll have to disagree with this. The US buys by far more foreign goods than any other country and as a result runs an US$800 billion trade deficit, which by itself is larger than the aggregate deficit of all the other nations in the world which have a balance of trade deficit. So although there are certainly elements of xenophobia within the US, in balance it has very open markets, and really, it's quite rare to hear someone seriously say "Buy American" these days.

Re:Perception

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Oh bullshit. The ports thing was questionable from the start, but not because of the buyer, because of the fact that the administration tried to slide it under the radar.

As to "xenophobia" in this context, it has a lot to do with the proven record of Chinese-based support organizations. When Lenovo hires a western firm to service it's western customers (you know, people who speak English or whatever language apart from Mandarin you might prefer.. Natively) then there won't be nearly the reluctance that there is today.

For the support rep to understand my problem, he first has to understand what I'm saying. Without me having to repeat myself 8 times and ask him to repeat himself 10. And he needs to not be referring solely to a notebook full of blow-off "rote"responses. He needs to know what the fuck he's doing, and be able to handle odd situations on the fly, without resorting to "please, a representitive will call you back. Thank you" cop-out.

I'd say that there might be a xenophobic element, if it weren't for the fact that Lenovo thinks they can charge what IBM was charging, without providing the value that the IBM name carried. If they reduced their prices to Dell levels, they might have a chance.

Re:Perception

[loyukfai]

The Legend Holdings Limited (which itself is owned by the Chinese Academy of Science and Employee's Shareholding Society of Legend Holdings Limited) owns about 42.5% of Lenovo.

The Chinese Academy of Science was setup and under control by the State Council, which basically means the Chinese government.

http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/lenovo/shares_info.html
http://www.legendholdings.com.cn/intro_en.asp
http://english.cas.cn/Eng2003/page/home.asp
http://english.gov.cn/

Same Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure if it's the same in the US, but here in Europe the StinkPads are supported by the same out souring company that did the job for IBM. A friend of mine who works for them informed me that no customer details are allowed to floow upstream to China, all contact Lenovo must go though line mangers/area suppervisors. If it is due to support issues only then this appears to be a customer misconception.

No change of perception

[CUGWMUI]

Lenovo may have taken over the Thinkpad business from IBM, but the quality of the laptops continues to be the same. Lenovo (and IBM too), ensured that their large corporate customers continue to stick by the brand, and thats where the large sales volumes and bulk contracts come from. If there is a drop in sales to individual customers, its probably because the other laptops aren't "bland, boring machines" like Thinkpads, from a visual perspective as well as from a features perspective.

I know my company is still sticking to Thinkpads.. for the time being atleast.

Lenovo vs. HP

[Dethboy]

I'd buy another Thinkpad. I got a Z60 in December - so far the only problem I've had was a missing power cord for the docking station. I called and was promptly drop shipped a new cable.

In contrast - I've had two HP's that I've had to ship back - one took 2 weeks to return, was still broken when I got it back - shipped it again - waited another two weeks, got it back again still broken, then a day later I got a 'new' refurbished laptop in the mail - no explanation.

Jim

It is misconception.

[William Robinson]

Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

Hope it is misconception. Why would anybody discard a product just because it is from some other country unless there are quality issues.

my $0.02.

PS: No I haven't RTFA. The site is slashdotted.

Re:It is misconception.

[knewter]

Are you kidding me? There are plenty of reasons to buy domestic, regardless of build quality. To do so directly benefits the domestic economy greater than to buy from China (obv. this argument doesn't apply to chinamen). If you're entirely selfish AND you think that America will maintain its dominance in the marketplace without your help, then sure it makes no sense to buy domestic instead of Chinese. If you have the least bit of patriotism then the benefit buying domestic affords your country will at least become a factor in your decisions. At that point you won't be so one-minded in your buying decisions.

For clarification: I don't say you should buy a crappy American product in place of a high quality Chinese product. But there are plenty of comparably or better built laptops in the domestic market. And even if the supply chain hasn't changed drastically, and the laptops were always being built in China, it still makes sense to care about the nationality of the parent company if this is your concern - IBM was making the most profit of all the companies in the chain, and they were domestic. Now a foreign company is. It's not xenophobia; it's making beneficial, patriotic decisions with your capital.

Re:It is misconception.

[forgotten_my_nick]

>I don't say you should buy a crappy American product in
>place of a high quality Chinese product. But there are
>plenty of comparably or better built laptops in the
>domestic market.

Name one machine that has all its parts constructed and assembled in the USA, or if you have problems with that name one machine that has no parts in it that originated from China.

Re:It is misconception.

[nagora]

Why would anybody discard a product just because it is from some other country unless there are quality issues.

What about slavery issues?

TWW

Re:It is misconception.

[knewter]

I tried to cover this with my mention of the supply chain. I know that Taiwan, China, Korea, etc. are the countries in which an enormous quantity of the parts that go into an individual computer originate. However, in the one case where you *could* choose whether a domestic or foreign company gets your money (the manufacturer themselves make a fair chunk of the profit on a laptop, no?), the argument applies. At any rate, I was just flabbergasted that the poster I was replying to couldn't answer the question 'Why would anybody discard a product just because it is from some other country unless there are quality issues.'

Re:It is misconception.

[bezza]

It doesn't matter! The entrepeneurial profits stay in America. Also remember there are a whole lot of other people employed by these companies within the country of origin: engineers, accountants and all the rest of the business support staff (IT etc).

You cannot blame anyone for allocating their income to any one good - no matter what their reasons maybe.

Re:It is misconception.

[Surt]

You might be concerned that your purchasing of the product in question lent financial support to a downright evil regime that murders and otherwise oppresses its people quite viciously.

Re:It is misconception.

[p2sam]

You are misguided. If all Americans opt to purchase goods and services base on political ideology rather than market forces, the overall purchasing power of Americans will be less than efficiency. The American quality of life will suffer. If American made goods were just as affordable, and of as high quality as its foreign competitors, you wouldn't have to choose in the first place.

Put it another way, for your dreams of sustaining the American Way Of Life, it's better to buy the most affordable, and highest quality goods possible, and with the money you saved, invest in infrastructure and education, so that American can be more competitive in the international market place.

Re:It is misconception.

[knewter]

Your argument only holds up if infrastructure and education are the things keeping us from being competitive in a global marketplace. In many markets, we are uncompetitive because of our minimum wage laws. In others, we are uncompetitive because of a lack of capital in the affected industry overall.

Also, market forces include matters of values as well as matters of economic self-interest. The market is simply a communication medium - it does not state what it communicates. Ultimately, if Americans chose to buy American, the market would communicate a desire for American made goods, and corporations that listened would move parts of their infrastructure to America. Ultimately, one of our two possibilities may prove to be most likely, or most efficient. But to state that i'm misguided without considering this possibility in your argument is a bit hasty, in my opinion.

Re:It is misconception.

[bnenning]

If all Americans opt to purchase goods and services base on political ideology rather than market forces, the overall purchasing power of Americans will be less than efficiency.

True, but two responses:
1. Economic efficiency should not be the highest goal for individuals or nations, and I say this as a die-hard libertarian capitalist. Denying profits to an oppressive regime may be more important than increasing your purchasing power.

2. Even in purely economic terms, trading with a hostile entity may be detrimental in the long term if they use their profits to fund attacks against you (military or otherwise).

That's not to say that we should start boycotting everything from China, just that taking ideology into account isn't necessarily irrational.

Re:It is misconception.

[p2sam]

While the rest of the world is particpating in the free market, producing the products that they are most efficient at producing, consuming the products that are most affordable and of highest quality, and generally increasing their quality of life. You Patriotic American, will continue to expand your buying power to sustain inefficient uncompetitive antiquated American industries, lowering your quality of lifes, and competitive edge.

International trade works because nations have decided that if they are doing something poorly, they should stop doing it. Instead they will expand efforts on doing the things they do well.

Re:It is misconception.

[p2sam]

Aside from the Chinese being a quasi-communist state. What has the Chinese ever done to you? The Chinese had pretty much minded their business for the most part. What has the Chinese ever done to piss the Americans off?

- Why is the Chinese considered to be a "hostile entity"?
- The US trades with plenty of "opressive regimes", so who cares?

Re:It is misconception.

[knewter]

The problem here is that China and America are built on philosophies at odds with one another, and quality of life covers more than simply materialistic goods. I am not a materialist, and you are. It seems that that is the core of our disagreement.

Re:It is misconception.

[p2sam]

When it comes to ideology, I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm not really a materialist, but I play one on TV. :)

You made a claim that by selectively biasing purchasing decisions to goods produced in one's own country, the local economy will receive some form of net benefit.

I disagree. The quality of life of your citizens will be lower than they should be if they just choose products base on price and quality alone.

Now, if you are advocating that one should practice this purchasing bias, DESPITE the known economic consequences to your citizens and local economy, just so that the communist wouldn't get your money, then that's fine, I can respect your opinion.

Re:It is misconception.

[forgotten_my_nick]

> It doesn't matter! The entrepeneurial profits stay in America.

and thats the state you are in now. Companies American in name only while most of the work is outsourced to other countries. It is only a matter of time before they start cutting out the middle man. Or worse the US no longer becomes viable to work in and they just up and move to the EU or another country.

After all am I going to buy a US laptop for $4000 or Chinese one for 1/10th the cost. Of course the US might start introducing protectionism to stop its consumers from buying the cheaper stuff (bit like US Steel) but it will do nothing but raise the prices of everything at home and lock you off from possible better products at a comparable price.

Re:It is misconception.

[knewter]

Though I fear dragging this conversation out past its prime lifespan (and I must say I've enjoyed it immensely), a significant aspect of my viewpoint is that it's conceivable that the immediate boost the local business economy gets from the influx of money by buy-American folks, combined with the reduction in income that competing businesses in foreign countries with policies at odds with our own, combined with their greater overall costs due to import excises, tariffs, etc., could lead to greater economic benefit in the long run, domestically.

However, the initial point of my post was simply to point out to the poster I was replying to that there reasonable people may disagree with him about whether it is worth taking note of the nationality of a company before purchasing from them. This could have been pointed out solely by my making a distinction between idealism and materialism, though I didn't realize it as fully at the time. I instead chose to poorly articulate my still-held belief that allowing a tendency towards buying American to at least partially influence one's purchasing decision can ultimately lead to greater economic prosperity at home.

Re:It is misconception.

[bill_mcgonigle]

Aside from the Chinese being a quasi-communist state. What has the Chinese ever done to you? The Chinese had pretty much minded their business for the most part. What has the Chinese ever done to piss the Americans off?

A couple problems come to mind. First, they don't let the Yuan float on the currency market, against world trade rules, which artifically puts the rest of the world at a competitive disadvantage. American goods cost ~27% more than Chinese goods based on this alone. A level playing field is all most ask for.

Second, they run over their student protestors with tanks.

No difference n my opinion....

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Thinkpads before and after the Lenovo purchase are every bit as good as the one when they were called IBM ThinkPads. In fact, they have bene made by Lenovo for many years now. Only way they may be loosing market share is fear of loosing support.

No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Time to burn some more karma...

Thinkpads have always sucked. They are ugly, heavy, and generally have less features than similarly priced notebooks from other makers. So why were they so good? I.B.M. You had the reputation of IBM behind each one. It didn't matter that these things looked like they were slapped together from parts scrounged off of cheap umbrellas and suitcase handles, IBM - the business company - was making them, and that made these ugly pieces of crap not only the de-facto business laptop, but also items to be lusted over. You could fulfill all your dirtiest accounting fantasies just by typing on that loud clicky-clack keyboard and rubbing the stiff nipple. That heft in your briefcase? That's not 'cheapest supplier', nope, it's HEAVY DUTY parts.

Anyway, now that IBM isn't behind these things anymore, they lose all that luster. And customers lose all their lust. They look and realize what Apple realized almost a decade ago - PCs don't have to be ugly. So people start looking around and see what they've been missing. Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

It's all Windows underneath the hood, and in all likelihood it's the same hardware as well. There's no reason to be stuck with Thinkpads anymore.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[eraser.cpp]

My Thinkpad weighs less than 4 pounds so I don't know where the "heavy" part is coming in. I've always know IBM laptops to be lighter than their competitors. The less features is probably because they don't whore almost meaningless specs to get sales. They just don't use cheap parts, plain and simple. While other companies will cut corners and give you a laptop that's heavy, runs hot, and has a powerbrick large enough to kill a man, IBM truly gives you a good product. I do like Powerbooks, but they wear much more easily than a ThinkPad. I also disagree that the ThinkPad is ugly, its look has grown on me quite a bit.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Nobody buys a thinkpad for the best buy ooh factor. I love thinkpads because they're build like bricks. They're close to indestructible and they have the best laptop keyboard I've seen. I don't need useless "features"

There are currently two lines of laptops which are toddler-resistant. Thinkpads and toughbooks. Thinkpads are more expensive for the performance. That's okay. I'm not buying laptops that will run Duke Nuke em forever. I'm buying a work machine that will survive 4 continents. I'm going to wait and see if Lenovo still makes bulletproof laptops. If so, I'll stick with Thinkpads. If they start making HP/Dell pieces of shit, then I'll switch to toughbooks.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[planetmn]

They are ugly, heavy, and generally have less features than similarly priced notebooks from other makers. So why were they so good? I.B.M. You had the reputation of IBM behind each one.

That, or they are built like a tank, something that a business would appreciate. I have a circa 1999/2000 I-Series thinkpad. Bottom of the line pretty much. The friend who purchased it new abused the hell out of it (since selling it to me and buying powerbooks, he has broken the powerbook multiple times). Six years later, everything works but the PCMCIA card reader (he dropped it onto its' side with a wireless card installed) and the hinges for the screen take some finessing (it travelled cross country, more then once, thrown into the bed of a truck). The thing is a tank, and if you are travelling, it will outlast anything out there. Sure they are more expensive, but there is a reason.

Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

Maybe it's just me, but I like the plain, black look of the thinkpad, I find it rather sleek. But hey, style is subjective. I also like the look of the powerbook. And in terms of keyboard, I have not used a keyboard on a laptop I prefer to the thinkpad (this includes HPs, Dells, Apples and Toshibas).

It's all Windows underneath the hood, and in all likelihood it's the same hardware as well.

While that may be true, the fact that the "hood" is heavier duty, makes a huge difference.

-dave

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Anonymous Coward]

I've disassembled many brands of laptops and would rather work on a thinkpad than most any other brand, especially those listed as alterntives that people are moving to.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[daffmeister]

I'll jump on this band-wagon.

I've got an X20 that's six years old and has been used daily for work. It's still 100% perfect (apart from battery replacement). In particular, the keyboard is still absolutely perfect.

Frankly, I'm amazed. I've seen a lot of notebooks and never seen one last like this.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

So people start looking around and see what they've been missing. Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

Cheap cases that creak and flex whenever you pick the thing up! 400 obnoxious blue LEDs! Windows keys! Sending the thing in for repairs! 500 multimedia keys all over the thing! Tech support in third world countries! Horray for nice round fisher-price cases!

And I have no idea what you're talking about with "good keyboards" or these things being heavy.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Remlik]

I realize this is a highly subjective area but I think the above poster has either not used a thinkpad recently or has had some serious problems with IBM in the past.

I currently use (R51) and purchase IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads for my company (T-30, T-40/42 and one X somthing). Over the years I have used and purchased other brands such as Gateway, Toshiba, Sharp and HP. 7 years ago I got my first Thinkpad A20m and have since that day forward been buying thinkpads.

When I think of buying a corporate laptop for a sales person the LAST thing on my mind is "looks". I want a rugged, well built, well supported and most of all reliable laptop. After all when they are 1200 miles away in a board room making a sale the last thing they need is a good looking pile of crap that won't boot. I currently support more than 30 Thinkpads of all shapes and sizes. I have only sent two in for repairs. One was dropped down a flight of concrete stairs and the other decided it wanted a rum and coke... Both were repaired and returned within 5 business days. No screens have failed, no drives have failed and these are all in the field laptops not desktop riders.

Most of my sales people hadn't used Thinkpads prior to working with this company and now many of them have sworn off the likes of Dell and HP. There are several sizes of thinkpads for those that want small and light, or like myself big and powerful (I'm young, I can lug it). I think all but the X series now have both the nipple and a touch pad. Very convienent once you learn how to use them at the same time.

I'll grant you that for a home user a thinkpad may not be the best option. They don't have Widescreens or Dolby Surround sound or 900 different Flash slots on them. They do run Linux quite well. I have installed Suse, Fedora and others on mine over the last year.

Lenovo has been making thinkpads for some time now, even before the sale. In fact current thinkpads come in a Lenovo box but still have the IBM branding on the machine. There are no lenovo stickers or logos on the actual laptop. I will continue to buy them so long as they remain reliable and well supported.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[dmdb]

I'm going to have to jump on this one as well. I've used many laptops over the years but since going with IBM have never looked back. The X series laptops are incredibly light and well built machines. I've never bothered with special bags, the X21 I own is robust enough to take a few knocks and has been the most reliable laptop I've had, I'm using it now to write this on the train at the moment and with a larger laptop with padded bag etc I wouldn't have bothered taking it with me. I've never had a problem with the keyboard even when touchtyping and I happen to think the X series laptops look fairly good as well, this said, for me the machine is a tool not a style icon so I'm not too bothered, I use it beacuse its reliable, compact and does the job I need it to.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[MooUK]

I have an ancient thinkpad 390. The hard drive has been replaced, and the battery is completely dead, but otherwise it works fine.

It literally is a brick. It's rock-solid and has been dropped a couple of times with no damage. It's been sat on, too, by accident. I know several people who've killed their modern laptops by sitting on them, and yet this thing is still fine.

If you want a flimsy pretty laptop, then a thinkpad isn't what you want. If you want something that will take anything you throw at it (or anything you throw it at) then, as the parent said, a Thinkpad is probably the best choice.

How much this has changed with Lenovo making them is another matter entirely...

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[CmdrPorno]

I don't know what the situation is now, but Toshiba and IBM used to be two of a small number of manufacturers who offered the keyboard clit instead of the trackpad. I have seen Dells with dual controls--keyboard clits and trackpads--recently, so perhaps this alternative pointing device is catching on.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[eck011219]

They are bulkier, but they are also rugged (as mentioned in other responses to your post). They're expensive (prohibitively so for me) but I'd buy a tricked-out ThinkPad if I could. The keyboards are the best in the land. I now buy Toshibas and put up with occasional meltdowns (the one I'm writing on now has had EVERYTHING replaced under warranty due to a well-documented problem). I don't like the problems, but I think the keyboards are the best of the consumer-grade laptops. I really like good keyboards and hate to adapt my actions to crappy ones.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Anonymous Coward]

That's been my experience with Thinkpads. I think it's mostly due to a more flexible plastic shell. The laptops with the "magnesium" shells or stiff plastics tend to transfer the forces to the other components more. On the Thinkpads the plastic shells tended to break sooner, at least that been the experience on the "corporate" laptops I manage.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Itchy Rich]

And in terms of keyboard, I have not used a keyboard on a laptop I prefer to the thinkpad (this includes HPs, Dells, Apples and Toshibas).

My opinion's a little less flaterring.

Firstly, the positioning of the CTRL key is a complete nightmare. They moved it into the common position of the Windows key and replaced it with their own "FN" key. Personally I think that any key that doesn't aid typing or OS navigation should be kept out of the way. After all, how often am I going to switch between my laptop screen and a seperate monitor? Far less often than I need to copy and paste, but the CTRL key requires an awkward wrist movement because of their FN key.

Secondly, for a Windows laptop to be supplied without a Windows key in 2006 is pathetic... it throws half a dozen of my most commonly used key shortcuts straight out of the window. I don't know what kind of political pissing games they're playing with my keyboard but I wish they'd just stop it and let me decide which keys I want to press.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Qbertino]

I had an IBM Thinkpad once. It was an IBM PS/2 Note N33 SX. A Notebook with a 33Mhz 386 and up to 6 MB of Memory. I think it was one of the first notebooks ever. I have yet to see a Notebook with a keyboard of that quality.
There is something to it, the ThinkPad quality I mean.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[eraser.cpp]

Inside the ThinkPad configuration program you can easily set the Windows shortcut key to the right alt key.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with Dave. I'm on my 4th thinkpad, a T43. The thing is built like a brick shit house. I've had about every other major laptop you can think of and nothing can compare to how rugged this thing is. It may not be as pretty as a mac but can you drop a mac from 6 feet a couple times a year and still have it work? This particular model has the IBM logo on the top but has a Lenovo logo on the underside. This might have been mfg'd during the transition.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Itchy Rich]

Inside the ThinkPad configuration program you can easily set the Windows shortcut key to the right alt key.

Firstly it's a corporate laptop, and it would probably breach my contract to fiddle with anything outside windows profile settings (even if I had the password). Secondly, I shouldn't have to re-learn my standard shortcut reflexes to satisfy the political posturing of some corporate marketing wonk.

Thanks for the tip though. Someone might find it useful.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[khallow]

Firstly it's a corporate laptop, and it would probably breach my contract to fiddle with anything outside windows profile settings (even if I had the password). Secondly, I shouldn't have to re-learn my standard shortcut reflexes to satisfy the political posturing of some corporate marketing wonk.

As you are finding out, the windows key is a nonstandard addon. Lot of keyboards don't support it. My take is that IBM didn't want to mangle their keyboards even though a small number of their users use this key.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Itchy Rich]

As you are finding out, the windows key is a nonstandard addon. Lot of keyboards don't support it. My take is that IBM didn't want to mangle their keyboards even though a small number of their users use this key.

Yes, I found out it was a non-standard add-on back when it first appeared on keyboards. I think you're under-estimating its penetration now though.

A walk around the office of any company I've worked for in the past five years will reveal not a single keyboard (except for on the IBM Thinkpad) that doesn't have this key.

I'm not saying I think Microsoft should be allowed to dictate hardware to laptop manufacturers, but continuing to exclude that key to the detriment of easy keyboard migration is just plain arrogant. You can huff and puff about standard and non-standard all you like, but Microsoft won the argument over this button years ago.

I'll put it another way. I very much doubt Thinkpads would sell less well if they included the Windows key, but I know I wouldn't buy one until they did.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[sustik]

I have a T41 and I like it (got it new several years ago). Somebody saying it sucks caught me by a complete surprise.

Maybe we value different features? I am considering buying a new laptop, here is the list of feaures I am interested in:
- hardware stability, sturdiness, feel (drops, scratches etc.)
- trackpoint (I tried the 'massage mouse' in other models, yuck!)
- weight (less than 4lb would be great)
- at least 1400x1050 (SXGA+) resolution (14"), no wide screens please
- power consumption/battery life
- max memory support (at least 2G)
- 64 bit processor
- CD/DVD reader. Writing is not that important, and due to pen drives and a portable Ogg player the CD/DVD lost its importance.
- price, the last since I am rich, or I want to think I am :->

Of course it must run linux, but that does not seem to be a problem anymore (as it used to be). Notice the lack of processor speed requirements; my current processor does 1.4GHz, I will need no more than 1.8GHz, in fact I really prefer to save energy/battery life instead (by the way I drive a 105 horsepower car (manual though) and I find that quite sufficient too).

I could not find a model satisfying all the above conditions, I keep looking... I could settle for the X series, if they had come with an SXGA+ screen!!

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Gnavpot]

Yes, I found out it was a non-standard add-on back when it first appeared on keyboards. I think you're under-estimating its penetration now though. A walk around the office of any company I've worked for in the past five years will reveal not a single keyboard (except for on the IBM Thinkpad) that doesn't have this key.

Your walk gave you some pretty useless info. Try once again, and this time count the users which are actually using the key.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[rossifer]

They are ugly, heavy, and generally have less features than similarly priced notebooks from other makers.

Ugly? highly subjective. I happen to think that Thinkpads look better than HP laptops, though not quite as nice as Apple laptops. Those are the only three brands (HP, IBM, Apple) that I find acceptable in appearance.
Heavy? not nearly so subjective. In my purchasing experience (1400i, 600X, A21p, R51p, R51p) the Thinkpad was lighter than the comparable offering from Dell, Toshiba, Gateway by a pound or more. With a lower resolution screen but other specs identical, there was a Thinkpad offering (T21, T41) that saved another pound. I always found Thinkpads to be on the light end of the scale.
Less Features? You're smoking something good.
Screens: What I want is a high-res screen. 1600x1200 or better. IBM has been putting that screen in a sub-5lb laptop for six years. Now nobody is. In our house we still use the A21p's and R51p's with the incredible 1600x1200 screens, and I don't know how I'm going to break it to my family that nobody is making that good of a screen any more.
Networking: IBM had built-in modems (winmodems, I'll grant) and 10Mb ethernet while Dell, HP, and Gateway were still shipping a Type III PCMCIA card. IBM got built-in wireless at the same time as everyone else.
Keyboard: IBM has the quietest and best feel on a laptop keyboard bar none. Dell has the flimsiest and worst. Apple was close behind Dell on this point, I need to try a newer Apple and see if they've gotten better. HP used to suck really badly, but I recently tried one that felt pretty good.
Mouse: Nobody in our house uses touchpads after trying out the trackpoint, but I know that people are different on this issue. IBM's have had both the touchpoint and touchpad for years and you could disable the one you didn't want to use. Toshiba used to be the same on this, but I don't know if they've stayed with it. Nobody else seems to have figured it out.

They look and realize what Apple realized almost a decade ago - PCs don't have to be ugly. So people start looking around and see what they've been missing. Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

Are you sure it wasn't a Dell you were looking at? Maybe a Compaq laptop? Gateway? Because IBM's have had the best screen and the best keyboard in the business for years. Apple could only aspire to the IBM keyboard and screen. Other people have already said it right. IBM backed their products with IBM-level service. Lenovo doesn't seem to be able to get even close on the service side, so it's not worth paying as much. Lenovo has discontinued the best screen in the business. Lenovo seems to have dropped manufacturing quality from their priority list.

Lenovo isn't getting any of my business until they fix these issues.

Regards,
Ross

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[kelnos]

Aesthetics is a funny thing.

I have a ThinkPad T42 and a 12" PowerBook, and I love them both. Apple has the sleek, high-end metal look going for them (and not the metal-colored plastic most "metallic" laptops have). IBM (and now Lenovo) has a sleek, simple look that I find appealing.

However, I look at a Dell, Toshiba, or HP laptop, and they just feel cheap and ugly to me.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[labratuk]

So people start looking around and see what they've been missing. Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

Same stuff you find down at the flea market.

It's all Windows underneath the hood

Not for me, buddy.

There's no reason to be stuck with Thinkpads anymore.

Maybe wanting them to stay in one piece rather than wanting to show off at starbucks?

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Guido von Guido]

Really? I did not have such good luck with them. On mine, the hinges holding the LCD screen to the body of the laptop came loose. And I don't mean the sort of "loose" you can fix with a screwdriver. For a while I could prop up the LCD, but eventually the LCD stopped working (well, obviously).

Now, the 380D's and 380XD's were rock solid.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[Itchy Rich]

Your walk gave you some pretty useless info. Try once again, and this time count the users which are actually using the key.

I disagree that an observation of the now-prevalant standard layout is useless. Even if nobody apart from me uses it it's still the standard layout. Like I said before, I wasn't convinced at the time because of the politics of Microsoft imposing themselves on hardware, but it's actually a useful key, and has become standard. To not include it is just contrary.

Re:Quality still as good? - Or as bad?

[Herschel Cohen]

I own a IBM T-30 that under really light use developed two cracks in the case. The crappy Gateway I leased and hauled around everywhere for over two years only developed one case crack. Moreover, the latter had hard use.

The only positive comment is that the IBM unit is still technically useful running Linux, whereas the Gateway with the then new Windows 95 ceased to have any utility to me a full six months prior to the lease expiration - and I was doing Windows type custom coding for clients at that time.

Bigoted overtones...

[Anonymous Coward]

In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads ... I was told, "Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?"

Does the poster work/live around an organisation of while supremacists or what?? Perhaps the statement should have been clarified a bit ...

The Yuan link...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or else this is initially artificial but ultimately self-fulfilling news that has started appearing in the media because Lenovo is considered to be a very useful political lever to get China's leadership to float its currency, and thus would help reduce the US trade deficit.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command."

What does that mean, if you have overall poor performance it would be expected that you gain mindshare and respect?

40% of the laptops we get are bad

[pbulteel73]

I can understand if everyone else is having the same problems we are. 40% of the laptops we get have issues that mainly come from bad motherboards. With that many systems not working and the fact that it takes so long for the new system or the part to replace it, you start to thinking of looking elsewhere. Lonovo: Get your act straight or you're going to lose almost all your customers!

Re:40% of the laptops we get are bad

[AzsxQuii]

Well, thats one of the reasons I love the IBM TP's. I once had to service two machines which went bad withing days of each other. Because of the service contract that was purchased with the units, I received a 3 day turn around on the laptops. Another day to restore the images and Patch and my people where up un running in less than a week. Now, the shop I work in has to buy GSA contract Dell's. Its like going from playing with matchbox to playing with plamobile. It doesn't feel right. Another issue that no one else has addressed is the IBM Bays. I become the envy of my shop when I can mount a defective (or infected drive) on my bay. They have to scarble to mount the drives into enclosures, etc... Another cool setup I use, is that I have the os on the and data on the drivebay caddy. I boot from the caddy. Since Laptop theft is high, I advise people to simply remove the caddy when they are separated from their laptops. If theft occurs. They have the caddy with the primary drive.

Don't Know Lenovo

[eraser.cpp]

When I bought my Thinkpad I did so because of their reputation and was not disappointed. IBM's support is great. A friend's hard drive recently failed and he didn't need to go through the usual process of sending his stuff back to IBM for them to verify the problem, they just overnighted him a new one. Despite that he had called that evening, early morning the next day the new hard drive was at his door. I asked some Lenovo reps at CES if they were planning any major changes to the ThinkPad and they said no, but for something as expensive as a laptop I'm going to wait and see what other customers have to say. That said if I were in the market for a laptop right now I'd heavily consider Lenovo because Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, et al have all already proven themselves to be inferior products. I might even buy a powerbook.

Re:Don't Know Lenovo

[Jim Hall]

I'm going to wait and see what other customers have to say. That said if I were in the market for a laptop right now I'd heavily consider Lenovo because Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, et al have all already proven themselves to be inferior products.

IBM and Lenovo are still tight business partners. For example, at the end of March, I met with my IBM sales rep to review projects coming up over the next 12 months. As an aside, half-jokingly, I mentioned in that timeframe I'd also buy a new laptop ... and if he knew of any new ThinkPads coming out, let me know. Heh heh.

The next day I got a call from a Lenovo rep, who had spoken with my IBM rep. She said she heard I was interested in Lenovo Thinkpads, and would I like to test-drive a new model that recently came out? Hell, yes.

I've been running a Thinkpad T60 laptop since the start of April. Of course, I'm running Linux on it. It's a great laptop. Titanium body, magnesium-allow cover, integrated wireless, ... It's even Intel Core Duo! At the end of the month, it's going to be hard to go back to my Thinkpad R40 (ABS plastic body & cover, single-core CPU, etc.)

Still, if you're waiting to see what other customers have to say, I'd suggest getting a model that uses the Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 video (which is natively supported by x.org). So far, ipw3945-0.0.74-4.rhfc5.at seems to provide stable wireless networking, so I guess the Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG integrated wireless is okay.

Surprised?

[pcguru19]

Everything on the market was already being made or 99% designed before Lenovo bought the brand. The true test of quality and innovation will be with the next flip of laptops. The R&D and design work is still being done in the USA by the old thinkpad team, but time will tell if they have the same budget and the same directives on what they're to build. It doesn't matter how great your design team is if you're told you've got to make a laptop for no more than $999 MSRP.

Don't want a new Thinkpad

[electronerdz]

I don't want one of the "new" Thinkpads, because they now have a Windows key. My image of a Thinkpad has been ruined now. Microsoft has branded them.

One word: Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

At my company we have used IBM computers for 8 years that I know of, in three-year rotations. While the newer Lenovo computers/monitors look the same (Thinkcentre, Thinkvision and Thinkpad) the quality has gone downhill. They don't honor warranties like IBM did, constantly fighting us. And, one instance of quality lapses is the sheer number of LCD Thinkvision screens that came with 4 or 5 broken pixels, compared to past years. Due mostly to the not honoring of warranties, we will probably be going with Dells for this rotation.

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Not well thought out.

[NetJunkie]

Lenovo has a lot of people here in the US. They support a lot of jobs. There are a lot of Thinkpad manufacturing and support jobs right here in North Carolina. Lenovo is about to move their HQ here.

We've been a Thinkpad buyer for many years and haven't seen any change or decline in quality or service. We just got in a few of the T60 and X60 notebooks that are brand new. The Core Duo T60 sure runs cooler than my MacBook Pro. We have enough new Dell and HP notebooks come through here to know that we're still purchasing the right equipment.

Nope ... my HP NC6000 is made in France ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Though the quality of HP notebooks made in Chine is IMHO higher.

My friend got nc6220 with 15" 1400x1050 screen made in China and he loves it - the only problem is to get a good deal on it ...

Lenovo is good stuff

[toogreen]

Hey I've been living in China for more than 3 years now, and I know a bit about computer brands and stuff. It's a total misconception because Lenovo is BY FAR the best Chinese brand for computers and laptop here. It's considered by many of pretty good quality. My girlfriend has a Lenovo branded laptop, and It's good enough! Better than many HP/Toshiba I've seen before...

It's not like nothing good can come out of China...

Re:Lenovo is good stuff

[hey!]

Lenovo is BY FAR the best Chinese brand for computers and laptop here.

The thing is -- companies aren't always brands, as is well known to, say, General Motors. Any organization that can make superb equipment can also make junk, and there's money to be made selling junk.

My late brother was, unlike me, a super-salesman. It wasn't that he was the sort who could sell anything to anyone. In fact that would ran counter to his philosophy of sales, which is that if you want to sell to somebody, have the right thing to sell to them. Consequently, he always had three lines. He had a high end line, for those who always had to have the best quality, even though most of the benenefit of the investment would be reaped by their heirs. He had a midrange line, for the pragmatic customer. And he had a line which was, frankly, crap, for the customer who wanted to squeeze the cash out of his business and leave town in a hurry.

Those three cases cover the vast majority of motivated customers. Where salesmean ran into trouble, in his view, was wasting energy and time by not understanding this simple principle of selling: there is a natural customer base for any level of quality. You can't sell crap to the carriage trade, they know it's crap. Nor can you sell crap to the bottom feeders by pretending it's good stuff -- it just puts them off. But you can easily sell crap to the bottom feeders as crap. It's very crappiness is in sense a kind a feature they will even pay a premium for. A man who feels like he is getting something as a steal is not going to look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth, unless you go out of your way to make him suspicious.

So -- the fact that Lenovo can make great hardware is neither here nor there. The fact that they have acquired a brand known for it's quality is far more significant.

Re:Lenovo is good stuff

[Sassinak]

You are correct sir..

As a person who's in the pre/post sales business, I can agree with the line of reasoning you outlined. Lenovo has been good firm with great name recognition in China (Mainland, and islands). And as such, it has certainly garnered a lot of respect. (including my own, as a owner of two Lenovo laptops, one before the buyout and one after the buyout).

The problem I think is less about xenophobia (though granted, with some people/firms, that DEFINATELY the case for them).. but more about getting the same name recognition that IBM has with a virtual unknown to much of the western consumer mindset.

To give you an example (that's very close to home for me). (WARNING: Different industry.. not automotive).

There was a line going around before that Brooks Brothers was going to be purchased by Tomy Hilfiger. (still gives me nightmares). Suffice to say, I was ready to ditch my beloved brand (I love their quality, the style, etc...) and run for the hills screaming "The barbarians are here". I only know TH from what I have seen and suffice to say, what I have seen does not impress me one bit. So they have to wow me.. do something that won't make me pull my hair out.. (and I'm still young, so I have most of it). The best thing they can do is NOT tamper with my brand. (leave it alone)

I suspect for many people, Lenovo's purchase of the Thinkpad line is much the same. You have a brand that you know very little about, but you see other things around it, and so it sours your impression of what MAY be rather than what is. Lenovo's strategy is to update the brand, but leave its quality alone, which is about the safest thing they can do. Time will give them a reputation in the western world.. Good or bad, will be up to them, but so far, from my experiences and those groups/people/firms I know, it should be a very good one.

Just my 3.5 cents

eh?

[Starcub]

"Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command."

Perhaps if they inflated thier prices even more than IBM did, they would command greater market share and more respect than IBM did, well from ummm... from somebody anyway, I guess, maybe?

The Lenovo Tapes

[tangent3]

How could you not feel comfortable with Lenovo after checking out the secret Lenovo Tapes that show the kind of testing and developement going on in the Lenovo labs?

Misperception : Lenovo is the best Laptop I had

[PierreG]

I had been using many Laptops including some Dell, Toshiba and Compact over the past 8 years and my Lenovo is by far the best laptop I ever had. Casing a solid, wifi communication communication works like a charm. They even gave us a free model upgrade since they were a little late on delivery (ordered before christmas break). My other coworker with Lenovo think the same. From my point of view, misperception is the problem.

Better Tech Support!!!

[Kookus]

If all countries outsource their tech support, does that mean that if we call lenovo's tech support we might actually get someone we can understand? Anyways... I won't buy their laptop's because they haven't proven themselves. I also won't buy toshiba, dell, or any other laptop other then maybe a gateway as a last resort. Personally, I'd rather laptop parts become standardized and manufactured so that I can easily get parts and put them together myself.

Re:Better Tech Support!!!

[forgotten_my_nick]

> I won't buy their laptop's because they haven't proven themselves.

Who do you think were making all those IBM thinkpads for all those years? Nothings changed except the branding.

Re:Better Tech Support!!!

[Kookus]

a brand name is everything.
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/31/069 214

Ask yourself this.. let's say mtn dew costs $100, but you love it. tomorrow they start calling the drink valley spring water, and instead it's sold by faygo. Are you gonna take the chance of buying it, or are you gonna settle for your 2nd favorite drink?

It's pretty easy to say you'll try something when the cost is insignificant, but when you're shelling out a grand or 2 on a product, you damn well wanna make sure it's good.

Hell, even insignificantly priced objects are still subjective to your biases... what kind of toilet paper do you buy? why? If it's only 10 cents more then a knock-off brand, do you think - Hey! I can save 10 cents or are you like - 10 cents is nothng, and we're talking about my ass for crying out loud!

Why do people buy bmws? it's a pos car for everything except their top of the line stuff, and even then it's subjective... but it's a bmw!!!

When going to the grocery store and picking out a condom (jokes aside) are you going to buy a trojan or a hotrod condom? What if the trojan brand was sold to some other country and it had it's name changed?

How safe is your wallet?

Probably nothing to do with China, or even Lenovo.

[ivan256]

Companies aren't usually racist, or xenophobic. Most big business embrace foreign production as a method to save costs. What's going on here is that the high price of a ThinkPad used to be justified because it was backed by the excelent support organization at IBM. Busunesses didn't care that Lenovo was making the laptops for IBM anyway before the sale because they were buying the service and support primarily and the hardware second. Unless Lenovo builds up a network of local on-call service personell and a rapid FRU distribution chain like IBM has, and unless they market that service organization to death, they're slowly going to lose every business and educational ThinkPad customer IBM had.

The real problem with Lenovo

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem isn't that Lenovo is making the computers, they have manufactured Thinkpads for IBM for years now. The problem is that Lenovo is pushing the Thinkpads into retail and are therefore competing with low-end Gateways, Averatecs, and who knows what else. This puts enormous pressure to bring prices down, which means resultant pressure to get the manufacturing costs of the laptops down as well. Users of the x60 series Thinkpads (formerly x40, x32, etc) are complaining that the buttons feel cheap and that the units are not as solid as previous models.

The good thing about Thinkpads is that IBM refused to cheapen the laptops just to get market share. IBM users knew that they were getting a solid notebook with good service and a 3-year warranty. IBM could therefore charge a premium for that. Now that Lenovo is trying to get their products into Best Buy, there is no incentive to build a rock solid machine because nobody is going to buy it because it is too expensive. So the incentive is to build cheap crap that is good enough to get out the door without excessive warranty claims from cheaping out too far.

It's a shame that Lenovo is ruining the Thinkpad brand. I have a Thinkpad and love it but I will have to think twice when it comes time to buy another one.

Re:The real problem with Lenovo

[Senzei]

Uhh... Lenovo is putting its own brand on the market for retail competition with Gateway et al. The Thinkpad brand is still intended to mean exactly what it always has: sturdy as hell business laptop. If Lenovo is "ruining the brand", then it is entirely the product of design issues, not corner cutting to get into the retail sector.

Re:The real problem with Lenovo

[IntlHarvester]

Actually, IBM churned out quite a few crappy "retail" ThinkPads over the years. (380 model, etc)

Re:The real problem with Lenovo

[nmos]

i-series...

It has nothing to do with the China issue

[duffbeer703]

Companies bought Thinkpads because they were IBM customers, and their IBM rep sold them some IBM "solution" that covered everything from software & services to client devices. You see this alot in big banks and government agencies. They would sell Thinkpads and PCs at a heavy "discount", and recoup the "discount" in rollout costs or by not discounting some enterprise server or software.

Now that Lenovo is a different entity, your Websphere, Tivoli or mainframe salesman cannot pad his commissions by moving a few hundred Thinkpads at a heavily discounted price. Hence the drop in Thinkpad sales.

Simple really

[hey!]

Anything that's mobile is not longer just a tool. Because you carry it, people associate you with it; it makes a statement about you. In other words, it's a fashion accessory.

Sure the manufacturing, technical support, and eincrasingly the engineering can all be offshored as well, or perhaps even better for the price. But they could never offshore that ineffable yet undeniable ThinkPad style: that lushious black keyboard with crisp white lettering, accented with that audacious soupçon of blue... Well, blue-gray technically speaking, but we don't want to look tarty.

And there's that signature ThinkPad shape, that is so staunchly and solidly rectangular, but somehow manages to be square as well.

Thinkpad, you will be missed.

Blogspam

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think that Lenovo is losing market share. I think it's because...

You think?! Well, it must be true then. This article is nothing but a blogspam with no supporting evidence.

A new low for Slashdot... today.

Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

[lRem]

Well yes. But the basic reason for buying anything that's Chinese is that it's cheaper. When it comes to Thinkpads, they're both Chinese _and_ expensive. That's why they have hard time on European/American markets.

My fav features

[porkThreeWays]

I bought a thinkpad a few months after the aquisiton. I basically bought it for two reasons. 1) A simple solid laptop that isn't as expensive as a toughbook. 2) Ease of assembly/disassembly, availability of parts, hardware documentation, etc etc. And so far its passed with flying colors.

My last laptop (averatec) was the biggest piece of shit ever. It had a notorious power issue and Averatec refused to fix it (or even admit its a common problem). There was no documentation for taking it apart or its layout, and even when I got it apart and found the part to be replaced, Averatec won't sell you parts. I set out to find the perfect simple laptop...

It feels very solid. You can handle it pretty well and it doesn't feel like it's going to break. Not toughbook strength, but still very good. IBM still hosts giant manuals on their site for taking them apart. This was extremely important to me. It seemed like an admission that it's actually ok to take apart your laptop and service it yourself. It's very extensive. I love how there are only 5 screw sizes on the whole laptop and they are all marked. It's such a simple gesture, yet it helps SO MUCH. With my Averatec, I was left with a pile of screws that got mixed up and was impossible to get back together.

As I said, I've got a Levano and not an IBM version. I would say the quality is still there. If you are a corporate buyer, keep buying them until they give you a reason not to. I've had enough problems with Dell's and HP's to know jumping ship to them on a whim isn't going to make things any better.

Re:My fav features

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought my T30 because..

* It has a solid feel. No cheap plastic like on other laptops.

* The trackpoint. I absolutely hate touchpads. I can move the mouse pointer much faster and more accurately with a trackpoint than with a touchpad.

* No Windows keys. I tend to use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, and the Windows keys always get in the way.

.

My next laptop will most likely be an X60. But sadly, they have added the Windows keys to the keyboard this time. Now the Ctrl and Alt keys have shrunken down a bit. :-(

Re:My fav features

[Angst Badger]

The ability to service my own laptop was a major reason I exclusively dealt in Thinkpads until the Lenovo acquisition. (The other major reason was an irrational brand loyalty to IBM that goes back to the 1970's.) IBM made real, honest-to-god not-written-for-idiots service manuals available for free download.

Fortunately, I bought a new Thinkpad right before the acquisition, and it was one of the higher-end desktop replacements. I don't know what I'm going to for my next laptop. It's a lot trickier question than purchasing a desktop because laptop designs are, by nature, heavily proprietary. You can't just go down to Fry's and pick up a generic part for your laptop like you can with a desktop PC. Finding a brand you can trust and rely on is very important.

My problem is that I don't trust Lenovo, less because they are Chinese than because they have no track record, and I have had very bad experiences with the remaining US laptop manufacturers. The only major brand out there that has a reputation for quality in general is Sony, and truth to tell, I don't know much about their laptops.

I do know that aside from routine wear and tear, I've never had any major problems with IBM Thinkpads, and IBM customer service was pretty good. What now?

Re:My fav features

[nmos]

I couldn't agree more. The ability to do repairs in-house is the main reason I've been recomending Thinkpads to customers and buying them for my business. Shipping a dead laptop off takes longer and you never know what they are going to decide to do with the software/data. The last time I had a Gateway apart to repair a power plug it was something like 120+ screws to get to the motherboard and it took forever to get the thing back together. In contrast, I replaced the lcd inverter in a Thinkpad a while back and it took me an hour or less. I don't think I could have even gotten an inverter for most other brands. I'm not sure what I'll start using if Lenovo drops the ball.

Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

[muyuubyou]

How many people buy Thinkpads in Wallmart?

Now they will do. They're just switching their market for premium-buyers to cheapskates, or somewhere in between.

In related news, they will be selling in Best-Buy. http://news.com.com/Lenovos+Best+Buy+deal+may+attr act+normal+folk/2100-1047_3-6059957.html

I guess it all makes sense for them.

You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

Sorry, but if you think the Mac laptop offerings (especially the keyboards) are "good", you've evidently lost all feeling below the neck. Their laptop offerings are some of the flimsiest pieces of crap imaginable.

Take the MacBookPro. Pick it up in one hand along an edge. If you can't see the entire damn case flexing, I'll eat my UPS.

I'm not really sure what your experience with Thinkpads was.

My experience was almost universally positive. And the things, while not the greatest gaming systems (Internationa BUSINESS Machines anyone?), were always rock-stable and durable.

Of courst, that COULD just be me. But I pretty much have a circle of friends, co-workers, and colleagues who swear up and down by Thinkpads too. More or less for the identical reasoning.

As for color. I'm not marching in the local GLPP. I'm WORKING on the thing. I don't need neon greeen, or lousy aluminum cases that ding and scratch if I so much as look at the thing. The Thinkpads have a certain stark, no-nonsense style to them, and they definitely make a positive statement about the person using them.

But hey, to each his own. If you want a laptop that looks like it fell out of a box of Fruit Loops, cool.

Hint: Lenovo should offer Linux laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Offering naked or Linux notebooks would make Lenovo a leader.
How many of us are sick of the Windows tax?

So, call me superficial

[Ohreally_factor]

I hate to admit it, but a bad toupee on a CEO will make me take my business elsewhere.

Hint: It will cost you more

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an interesting study in business and economics to see how buying a naked PC will actually cost you more than buying the fully-loaded PC and wiping the drive yourself.

Re:Hint: It will cost you more

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I made that kind of market study too. However I do not see why this should be necessarily so.
This may be due to contracts with MS to have a discount price on Windows if a license is paid for each PC being shipped. Apart from that, the logistics should not be a problem, as the big OEM's are already used to offer options on their PC's.

Now think about the branding effect, and free advertisement that Lenovo would get if they would offer Linux.

On a new Lenovo X60

[teeheehee]

Recently I purchased and last week received my first new laptop in years. I chose a Lenovo Thinkpad.

Wow is it a nice machine!

I've been pretty much all about Thinkpads for a few years now, the first was given to me as a hand-me-down from a friend. I think a big part of it for me is the trackpoint, or 'nipple', because I really don't like touch pads for input and control. So few laptops have an alternative, and none go solely with a trackpoint or similar that I have seen.

I have no problem buying from a Chinese company as a simple consumer, but as it's already been stated most every other laptop manufacturer already gets at least part of their product made in China anyways. I really don't think this machine would have cost what it did if it wasn't made by Lenovo, Thinkpads are generally more expensive even now but for the specs I had thought they would have charged at least $500 more than they did.

Now, it's only been a week and I haven't picked up an extra 2.5" SATA drive to try and install Gentoo yet, so there's plenty of time for my perception to change - but... so far I'm way impressed!

Toshiba rock

[Pedrito]

For years, I refused to buy a laptop. I had to use them for work (for trips, demos, etc) all the time and hated them. At work, we used primarily Think Pads, but I had also used a few other brands.

Then I visited a friend who had a Toshiba and my whole outlook on Notebooks changed.

The fan and battery on mine are shot now, after years of abuse (including a year in Mexico sucking really dusty air through it which I'm sure is what killed the fan). But it still runs, albeit at a slower CPU speed. If I need it to speed up, I just stick the dust buster up to the vent and give it a couple seconds and it perks right up.

LUCENT & LENOVO

[Anonymous Coward]

While Lucent's workforce numbers may not command much attention these days (~30k), the company is moving to all laptops and Lenovo is the supplier. These will be dual cores. Rollout starts next month.

It's all branding folks...

[Churla]

Why do people continue to buy Sony products when Sony has been slipping?

Why do people continue to buy Microsoft software if it's known not to be the best out there?

Why do people eat at McDonalds instead of the mom and pop diner 2 blocks away that serves better burgers?

It's all name and brand recognition. People bought IBM notebooks because IBM had a name behind them, and in many cases also supplied all the bigger infrastructure and server pieces.

Now that same laptop isn't an IBM anymore. Like a high dollar luxury car manufacturer that also releases the same cars produced in the same way, but with a less expensive nameplate on them loses market value.

What used to have a Lexus nameplate on it, now has a Toyota nameplate. And has to complete on a different scale.

Re:It's all branding folks...

[Detritus]

It will eventually catch up with them. I no longer trust Sony or HP to make quality hardware. They have spent too many years cutting corners and outsourcing everything to the lowest bidder in China. Now many products are "badge engineered". They just import an existing product from China and stick their name on it.

Re:It's all branding folks...

[Anonymous Coward]

but the toyota corporation sells what are branded as "lexus" in the states as toyotas all over the rest of the world. and they seem to sell just as well. is this just an american hang-up?

Re:It's all branding folks...

[ghqman]

The reason branding generally works is consistency. Going into McDonalds you know what you are going to get, pretty much no matter what town you are in. If you go to the mom and pop diner you don't know, until you've eaten there a few times. If that quality is allowed to drop then they may make greater profits for a while, until people realize. It may take a several bad experiences to overcome a history of quality, but I know I've now bought enough Sony to avoid it. People knew what an IBM notebook was going to be, but they don't know if Lenovo is going to stick with the same formula.

Re:It's all branding folks...

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf are u talking about? all mcdonalds are NOT the same, there are crappy ones where burgers are overcooked or too dripping with grease and the employees really really dont give a shit, or the veggies are assembled onto the sandwitch lopsided and fall out when you take it out of the box, and there are good ones where the sandwitches come out right. and even the good ones make you sick of it after the 500th time you eat there. I'd take any mom+pop diner for a burger over a mceedees anytime, and happily pay more for it too. the only thing McD's has going for it is the speed factor and the open-mad-late-at-nite-by-every-highway-exit factor. quality or consistency is NOT their strength.

Re:It's all branding folks...

[deanoaz]

>>> Why do people eat at McDonalds instead of the mom and pop diner 2 blocks away that serves better burgers?

    Because if they are not from around there they don't know if the mom and pop burgers are good or not. But they have a pretty good idea what the McDonalds food is like. They don't expect it to be very good, but they expect it to be the same as ever, and cheap.

Lenovo is the same still.

[youroldbuddy]

Lenovo is still making ThinkPads engineered by IBM and the quality hasnt changed a bit. The keyboards are still made by the same suppliers and nothing has changed yet. As someone who works 9 hours a day fixing IBM laptops for a reseller, I can say that things are looking up. The new T/X60 computers look awesome and relatively problem free (havent had any experience with them yet, a good sign) and Z60 is more or less problem free and has many features IBM has starved homeusers of (windows button, firewire etc.). The whole ThinkVantage package, Image UltraBuilder + LANDesk is coming along faster and faster and the whole commitee mentality seems to be more or less gone. My prefence for IBM laptops is reinforced every time I open up lappy's from other manufacturers.

Re:Lenovo is the same still.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Lenovo I saw didn't have the IBM navikit! That's hardly good trade for new "features" such as windows buttons.

Racist technologists?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm concerned about the apparent racist tones of this article. Racists rarely have any facts right, and it's already been pointed out that the majority of laptops are assembled by a Chinese company or two.

Folks, everyone on the planet has a right to work and pay their mortage. Maybe folks in the U.S. need to consider that our expectations are too high and our tolerance for sweat and strain too low.

As far as the product: I had two IBM Thinkpads before I bought one of the first Lenovo marketed units. It works great and I'm a happy camper.

So, stick to arguing economics and that you want profit to stay in town.

We're supposed to be better than this.

Perception is tantamount to reality...

[jpellino]

People look at the front of things, not the back, doubly so retail stores.
When people buy at WalMart, they perceive they buying from a good old 'merican bidniz. They see Sam Walton, Arkansas, Slim Jims, NASCAR and Wrangler - what can be more American? In reality if WalMart were a country they'd be China's 8th largest trading partner.
Even when they see things that say "Made in the USA" they don't realize it could be from the Marianas, which is by technicality a US protectorate but is just another Pacific sweatshop haven.
For years we likely bought either Singapore or Fremont or Cork -built Macintosh computers, but as long as they said "Designed by Apple in Cupertino California" on the box then nobody thought the next thought. And it didn't matter.
But IBM / Lenovo went through some very public wringers over whether to let the Chinese buy the operation and build these computers which are used throughout Gov contracts - so they're been branded as Chinese.
Befoer that, when people heard IBM they thought blue suits, white shirts and "Armonk".
Lenovo MIGHT have / or might have TO / simply call these ThinkPads and not display the Lenovo name.

Re:Perception is tantamount to reality...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, starting in 2000. To label something as "Made in USA" when it is actually made in Saipan/ marianas is illegal.

IBM's mindshare

[Rob T Firefly]

IBM has been slowly losing mindshare for decades now. Older nerds will remember the days when IBM was the big one, the monolith, the place BBS kids dreamed of haxing and MIT kids dreamed of ending up at. For a long time, the entire home computer industry was basically IBM and Apple. Not so these days.

Thinkpads are ok

[the eric conspiracy]

We have them at work, and I've found that the ones I've used are very nice workhorse machines in a men in black dress code sort of way. The PC support people also seem to like the support they get on these machines. The keyboards are particularly nice, however I my must say that the quality of the Thinkpad keyboard I have now is a cut below the machine I had previously.

However I am also in the market for a machine for personal use - and I've found that Lenovo just doesn't offer the features I'm looking for, including a 17" LCD and AMD CPUs in their Thinkpad line. So I'm going to be looking at HP and others.

features

[donh]

I actually ordered one, and then had to cancel.
Turns out, they dropped serial ports. I was talking to an IT guy at a factory, and he had to send all theirs back for the same reason (the USB dongles fail, I am tired of hearing about them -shut up :)
He got Gateways (he hates them, but they have serial ports), and I have an HP on order.
oh-well!

-d-

My experience

[timeOday]

When my 2.5 year-old IBM T40 recently flaked out, it was repaired on warranty - including a new motherboard, keyboard, and CD ROM drive (I use the laptop all the time and it was basically shot). So long as they carry on IBM's obligations and the quality stays high, I'm seriously tempted to stay with the Thinkpad series. The T60 looks to be a great machine, the only complication is that MacBooks can now boot windows too so those are tempting.

Silly, irrational, and mindlessly nationalistic.

[Jerk City Troll]

Where do they think all these electronics get manufactured otherwise? Hint: not here in the good 'ol U-S-of-A.

It is not IBM.

[jellomizer]

I really don't think that they are from China that is the real issue. It is the fact that they are not IBM. "Nobody will get fired for choosing IBM" is the old slogan. Lenovo is well... unheard of in the US. I could see someone renewing their Contract for new ThinkPads and the people see that this company Lenovo. And they get a Bad Batch of Think Pads will the person who decided to go with Lenovo will probably get fired, while if the Same thing happened with IBM he would probably get promoted because if IBM can't do it, A smaller guy would be able to do it as well. Now Dell, HP, Toshiba have name reconision in the market so after IBM dropted the think pad they go well HP is at a lot of our competitors so they will use HP. It is not about quality or percieved quality it is about keeping your job.

The end of the ThinkPad

[dozer]

I bought a ThinkPad i1452 in 1999. IBM took it back once under warranty to clean cat hairs out of the keyboard (oops) and once, OUT OF WARRANTY, to replace a still-working but loose power connector. No hassles; I just call them up, spend 10 minutes on the phone, a shipping container arrives the next day, and I have a working laptop back within a week. Beautiful.

My roommate just bought an X41. The hardware is beautiful but the software that it shipped with is insanely buggy. She spent a day applying all the updates. Click update, click yes, reboot, click update, click yes, reboot reboot reboot. At the end of that, the laptop still throws up random error dialogs about hard disk issues and the CD-ROM drive is really flaky. She spent 4 hours on the phone with Lenovo over the weekend. Lenovo told her to run the entire diagnostic regimen (takes over 12 hours). No errors. Then they told her to wipe the hard drive and recover from the recovery partition. And then go through another day of update hell. She hasn't done that yet -- the laptop is sitting unused while she tries to find time to hassle with it again.

Lenovo seems to think that it's acceptable to charge her almost $2500 for a laptop and then burn over TWO DAYS of her time trying to get working software on this thing. IBM would have fixed it or replaced it and ensured she has a laptop that actually works. If she wanted to repair her own laptop, she would have bought an Asus.

I've bought and recommended ThinkPads since 1999. No more. Does anybody have any recommendations for a ThinkPad replacement? A company that makes solid laptops and stands behind them 100%?

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Using the software update utility from Lenovo's website downloads all of the updates in one shot and instlal them all. I've never seen this endless rebooting you describe.

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[debest]

Does anybody have any recommendations for a ThinkPad replacement? A company that makes solid laptops and stands behind them 100%?

Nope. And I think we all saw this coming, too. With the ever-declining emphasis on quality and service in favour of price for every sector, and the market rewarding them for this, I think that this will continue more and more.

When IBM had the ThinkPad line that supplemented its other enterprise offerings, it could afford to emphasize the service end. Now with ThinkPads standing on their own, they have to compete directly with Dell, HP, etc. As with every other product in the Wal-Mart generation, the primary consideration is the initial purchase price: very little else seems to matter with the majority of the the purchasing public. So Lenovo must join the ranks or be watch their business go down the drain.

Until society in general starts to reject low quality and poor service, and pay more upfront for improvement to both, this trend will only get worse.

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[Hymer]

Well... Yes ! There is one : Apple... and you can even run Windows on them.
You may also find something in Japan... but they usually only make the really good stuff for the local market.
--
This comment is not ment as an offence nor as a joke...

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[planetmn]

If you think that the Mac laptops are of the same quality as the Thinkpads, then you are sorely mistaken. A Mac will not stand up to the abuse that a thinkpad routinely takes by a traveler.

Don't get me wrong, the Mac may be a fine laptop for the home user/non-traveler, but if you lug your laptop around, the Mac won't stand up like the Thinkpad will.

-dave

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[otis wildflower]

Does anybody have any recommendations for a ThinkPad replacement? A company that makes solid laptops and stands behind them 100%?

Yes.

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[Hymer]

I do have a PowerBook G4 and a ThinkPad A31p... I do use/treat them equally and I am quite sure that they both can handle it.
BTW. if you see someone in the street with an "unprotected" laptop in their hands you can allmost be sure that it is a Mac.

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[Zerbs]

Lenovo told her to run the entire diagnostic regimen (takes over 12 hours). No errors

This is pretty common from Lenovo. If you have a question the support person doesn't know the answer to off the top of their head they make you run this. (although when I ran it it only took 3.5 hours)

Re:The end of the ThinkPad

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite what others may say, my experience with PowerBooks proves them to be crap. The last one I bought had problems with the screen (lines and Apple will not really fix it) and the reception for Wi-fi sucked. Furthermore, I had to by Macintosh equivalents of Wintel programs. It was a expensive proposition and I thought that it was going to work out. Well it did not. Fortunately, I was able to sell the laptop and software and still break even (ecept for my lost time). No more Apples for me.

Japan

[shoemaker251]

Thinkpads have been manufactured in China for quite awhile. I'm sure people had the same perceptions about electronics coming out of Japan at first. Weren't the consumer electronics coming out of Japan starting in the 60s and 70s just cheap knock-offs of American products? I don't think anyone associates Japan with inferior electronics today.

Perceptions about Chinese products will change over time as Chinese designed and manufactured goods become higher quality. In time, Chinese manufacturers will move up the food chain into vehicles, etc.

I own a T-series Thinkpad, and I love it. I'd have to see some studies documenting a decline in Thinkpad quality before I change my opinion. However, I don't like the idea of Thinkpads being sold at Best Buy. I think there's a certain stigma to computers sold at retail stores, particularly laptops. I'd hate to see the Thinkpad brand diminished because they're sold at the mall.

Lenovo effectively == IBM

[nhandler]

Lenovo still uses IBM for support, so nothing has changed on that front, hence it is pointless to argue that a 'Chinese' company--that is, in fact, multinational (as is IBM)--cannot handle support. Lenovo still uses IBM for design, "" "". The keyboards are the same. If you all have anything more to say, stop dodging your true insecurities and slot it under xenophobia.

Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

[Stonent1]

The funny thing is, if you go to Lenovo's site, the first picture you see is a Thinkpad with an IBM logo on it.

Only one reason

[Billosaur]

Brand recognition. IBM - everyone knows it, company has been in America's consciousness forever. Lenovo - Chinese company no one knows and everyone assumes is planting spy chips in their computers.

Lenovo website still says IBM?

[WreckingCru]

Here's something interesting: After reading a lot of viewpoints (where I thought Thinkpads ALWAYS sucked - now there's just a "legitimate" excuse) - I went to Lenovo's site to examine the TPs again. http://www.lenovo.com/us/en/ If you keep your mouse over the T60 balloon (New ThinkPad T60 Notebooks) - the image on the right still has the IBM logo on the bottom right? This is true as of 4/17 9am EST.

But...

[LINM]

For US owned brands, the remitted profits go back to the US parent company (the Chinese benefit from labor wages and all the needed supplies at cost, but all the profit goes to the US parent and its (predominantly) US shareholders.

If a US firm owns and runs the brand, and it in turn is owned by US shareholders, they control the long-term profitability and value of the brand/revenue/user base.

If China was no longer a favored manufacturing location (e.g. distance, political instability, buyer perception of 'made in China'), then the manufacturers (HP, IBM, etc) could relocate their sourcing (although not an insignificant effort).

Re:But...

[SerpentMage]

Oh give me a break...

You think the Chinese company is not making a profit? And you would rather give management and CEO an excuse for their ten's of millions of dollars income? Remember that many of of these CEO's and managers increase profitability by charging the same darn price, firing the people who make it locally, and outsource to China!

Recently I had to buy a microwave. I saw two microwaves that were of interest to me. One was from Whirlpool and the other a no-name brand from China. The Chinese was 2/3 of the price of Whirlpool. I looked at both and asked what the difference was. The salesperson pointed out one was from a Chinese manufacturer and the other from Whirlpool. I looked closely at where the Whirlpool was made. Guess what, China!

I am willing to pay a premium for those devices made in my country, even if only assembly. However, I am under no circumstances willing to subsidize the efforts of management that fires tens-of-thousands of people in a bid to increase share-holder-value.

Re:But...

[LINM]

I agree with you, but let's break down the $100 for an item purchased from ACME Inc (a Texas firm sourcing from China) or alternately $80 to buy the same item Good Luck Co (a Chinese firm) - both items made in China. The breakdown will vary depending on the type of item (some cost more to make, some have larger profits, etc.). Reviewing the numbers may be insightful.

Here's where the money goes:

ACME Inc $100

Manufacturing $40
  -$35 goes to Chinese suppliers of which they profit $3
Sales and Marketing $25
  -All retained in US
R&D $20
  -All retained in US
Profit $15
  -All goes to shareholders (could be 20% international)

Good Luck Co $80

Manufacturing $40
  -$3 goes to US distribution
Sales and Marketing $15
  -$5 goes to corporate HQ in China (they likely market less relying on lower cost) the rest to distribution US channel sales
R&D $10
  -All paid to Chinese 'labs' perfecting copy cat approach
Profit $15
  -All goes to Chinese owners

I assume all G&A is embedded in the above figures. Please note I'm also not judging which is better...

Re:But...

[senatorpjt]

Also, I don't know what the situation is in China, but reportedly, in Japan, CEO's only make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. I'd have to believe it's even less in China, being communist and all. For a situation like this, I'd actually buy something made by a Chinese-owned company over an American one. (as in, American multinationals. Something like a Klein tool is a different story)

Poor Service

[moankey]

While the machines may be manufactured from the same place, I had to call for my offices recently for an invoice on a particular Thinkpad requested by the CFO. After being transferred to half a dozen people over the course of about 4 hours and providing the serial number and model number it was something they could not figure out or do for me. Apparently a request like this was never made before and baffled their customer, technical service, and sales.

Whereas when it was IBM run, it would have taken 1 call and 10 minutes.

Re:Poor Service

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Their customer service is terrible! I bought my ThinkPad from Lenovo thinking their their website was accurate AND I would get my product at a reasonable time. I was wrong on both accounts. The product that was said to be available was NOT. AND I when it was available, I had already moved away to grad school half way across the world and had to pay extra to have it shipped to me. If I never have to deal with Lenovo again, I would die a happy man.

Re:Poor Service

[GNU(slash)Nickname]

when it was IBM run, it would have taken 1 call and 10 minutes

Not on my planet it wouldn't. We used to lease Thinkpads (from IBM leasing) on a 2 year cycle. We had one batch that took 6 whole months for the leasing paperwork to catch up to itself. We wound up using those laptops for 30 months and only paid for 24.

Of course, then they were 6 months out of warranty when they went back, so we got stuck for a few repair bills that we would have otherwise avoided, but on balance, IBM's paperwork "skills" cost them thousands.

That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[Valdrax]

It's the association between Chinese manufacturing and cheap, flimsy crap from Wal-Mart that's hurting Lenovo if any reputation is hurting them. Chinese manufacturing doesn't really have any other reputation in America despite the fact that most notebooks are assembled there and all notebooks are made of parts primarily manufactured there. China's spent so long trying to undercut everybody that they've done a lot of damage to their reputation for quality.

On the other hand, that's exactly how America was 200 years ago. We undercut everyone with cheap, crappy goods thanks to our abundant workforce and raw supplies, and we built quality goods much later. China will eventually overcome this reputation once they've bootstrapped their economy and their own consumers become more sophisticated and demanding.

Then again, what do I know? I haven't shopped for PC notebooks recently, and I don't know if there's an actual quality decline in Thinkpads instead of a perceived problem due to national origin.

Re:That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[evilviper]

It's the association between Chinese manufacturing and cheap, flimsy crap from Wal-Mart that's hurting Lenovo if any reputation is hurting them.

Really? You don't think it has something to do with Lenovo's well-established reputation for manufacturing cheap flimsy crap?

Re:That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[Anonymous Coward]

China's spent so long trying to undercut everybody that they've done a lot of damage to their reputation for quality.

Not quite true, they're a developing country, and as such, things are naturally lower in quality and lower in price. You don't have to try hard to make things that are cheaper than the US when things like living cost is already 10% that of US. Lower quality comes from lack of technology and capital compared to that of the US.

Re:That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[theLOUDroom]

On the other hand, that's exactly how America was 200 years ago. We undercut everyone with cheap, crappy goods thanks to our abundant workforce and raw supplies, and we built quality goods much later.

I'd like to see some support for that argument. What sort of cheap, junky trinkets were we shipping out 200 years ago?
It certainly wasn't DVD players.

I really have to wonder where on earth you got this idea, 200 years ago 75% of America's exports were agricultural.
Japan might have been the example you were looking for, but Japan's gov't was and is signficantly different than China's. One might even suggest that China is in the same boat that Russia was was in 30 years ago. Sure, the wall fell, but how many Russian cars do you see rolling around the streets of the US?

My point is, it should not be treated as a forgone conclusion that China will eventually start producing product on a par with the rest of the world. I'm reminded of an Onion article: " India's Top Physicists Develop Plan To Get The Hell Out Of India."
The point is, it's perfectly conceivable that China could remain a cheap forced labor camp for the rest of the world indefinately. Hopefully, that won't be the case, but it is possible.

Re:That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know aobut american history of cheap crappy goods. But Japan is a good example of a country flooding us with cheap crappy goods at first and then upping the quality.

Chinese Mafia Owns 57% of Lenovo

[chromozone]

The Chinese government currently owns 57% of Lenovo. The Chinese Government is a mafia that harvests organs from Falun Gong members, threatens to invade Taiwan and even censors Google searches - for starters. Lenovo products aren't just another product made in China and refusing to buy them isn't simple xenophobia. There is hardly any compelling reason to pick a Lenovo over other another brand of computer and lots of compelling reasons to avoid them.

Re:Chinese Mafia Owns 57% of Lenovo

[murphytalk]

>The Chinese Government is a mafia that harvests organs from Falun Gong members >threatens to invade Taiwan and even censors Google searches Hey,your president just invited this mafia godfather to the states and going to meet with him in White House,and it's said that they are going to make a deal!Does that suggest Mr. Bush is another gangster? and what kind of their deal will be? Everyone knows US has already invaded Iraq,how about Mr. Bush is going to offer organs harvested from "terrorists" held in US prisons?

Re:Chinese Mafia Owns 57% of Lenovo

[Anonymous Coward]

You see all sorts of moralizing, posturing, and condemnation of China coming from Western governments -- at least when they are playing for the home audience. But actions speak louder than words, and if money is involved all Western ideals are very, very, flexible ... Western governments do not really care all that much what China does to its citizens. The Chinese government seems to have pretty much pegged us as being run by greedy hippocrates, and has been using this knowledges to "beat us at our own game" (i.e. capitalism) to great effectiveness in recent years.

Re:Probably nothing to do with China, or even Leno

[AtomicBomb]

In addition, it is another "nobody will get fired by purchasing from IBM/Microsoft" argument. Just imagine you are working in some IT department and you recommended the department to buy IBM/HP/Toshiba/Sony laptop. Now, a few units broke down. No one will think twice except the typical yell and moan.

But, if you suggested the company to buy an Acer/ASUS/LG etc, then someone will say behind your back that you have no commerical sense because you tried to save a few bucks for cheap gear. Oh, if you suggested to buy from a Lenovo, they may have even more crap in their arsenal....

Having said that, the Thinkpads still rocks... I am in a university, in which the IT department is allowed to buy any laptop as long as the academic foots the bill from his own grant. AFAIK, nothing statistically significant has changed... At the end of the day, all these laptops are assembled in the same region with parts sourced by the few manufacturers... I see no point to switch just yet if your shop uses Thinkpad and finds that okay before.

quality not like it used to be

[wooglin_1551]

I work part-time selling PC Systems at a retailer who sells ThinkPads. A good majority of them have come back, especially the X41's. We can't even get rid of those at a heavily discounted price. As for perception, I think people (especially higher-end business users) might feel the brand has been "cheapened" a bit, now that you can go purchase a ThinkPad at your neighborhood retail outlet, where in the past, these machines were only available online or from a reseller.

ThinkPad 760XL

[Yvan256]

I bought an old ThinkPad 760XL on eBay. I then added memory, a new battery, a new hard disk, cleaned the keyboard... And aside from a stuck red sub-pixel in the middle of the screen and a scratched cover, it still works fine (Win 98SE only, but this is a Pentium 166MMX/64MB laptop we're talking about... gives you an idea on its age). Those ThinkPad really are built like tanks!

It's not the computer alone

[Opportunist]

The computer is only half of the package. What happens when it breaks down?

Not if. WHEN. Current production tolerances mean that something will break down sooner or later. Buy the necessities for an average computer and your chances are pretty good that one piece is going to be broken from the start. CPU, power supply, ram...

It's getting similar with notebooks. Few are broken by design, but many break down within the first year. Let's even ignore such things as the dreaded cup of coffee that follow's Newton's law of gravity.

Then the question is, how long 'til you have your precious machine again? As a long time IBM user, I'm used to having my notebook back within a few days. Record time was 2 days (including pickup and return). Will Lenovo be able to offer the same service?

That's what matters to me. Not whether the computer costs 10 bucks less, not whether it's made in China or in Generistan.

os so you tell yourself.

[Anonymous Coward]

But you tell yourself a lie. Your assumption is absolutely incorrect. All notebooks, and I mean every single freaking one on the market are made completely under the control of companies that are known as contract manufacturers. There is no HP or Dell or IBM guy that has anything at all remotely to do in any way with the manufacturing of even the Macintosh or the iPod. They are all one hundred percent produced by contract manufacturers. This business model is know as OEM which stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer and yes that is ironic. It is not, however a new idea or something that happened in the last few years. It is already a a very old concept.
        The relatively new concept of interest to your tiny mind is ODM. ODM stands for Original Design Manufacture. It's similar to OEM, but instead of simply designing the products, this means that companies you never heard in cities you couldn't pronounce have their workers, not one of whom is a native Engrish speaker, not only manufacture and assemble every single part of the high tech goodies but actually design those products. Yeah, not just assemble, not just manufacture . . .design. The only involvement of any American company in any of this is to pay the money. Where do they get the money? From the big fat American consumers and that's America's only real contribution to high technology at this point. HP has nothing to do with hardware in the notebook you buy, nothing. Dell, nothing. Mac, nothing.

But I LIKE Thinkpads!

[Asklepius M.D.]

I recently purchased an X40 from Lenovo and have had no reason to be sorry about my choice. When I worked at my university's helpdesk, we had HPs, Gateways, Dells, Toshies, and Vaios stacked in heaps in the "to be repaired" cabinet, but I can count on one hand the number of thinkpads brought in with problems (most of these were over 5 years old and still going strong). I personally have owned laptops made by Dell, Gateway, HP, and even a customized Sager, but none of them were able to take much abuse. This thinkpad has survived being smashed by textbooks sans a case in my backpack, it's survived dust storms at 10k feet in the Rockies, it's been dropped countless times, and it still doesn't have a scratch on it! Okay, so it's not a fancy gaming machine, but I have a home built tower for that! It runs linux like a dream without my having to tweak each and every hardware device. I get 8 hours of battery life (dual batts) and the thing still weighs less than 5 lbs. It handles schoolwork, business, coding, and all that can be lumped together as "internet" without ripping my arm off or falling apart in a fresh breeze. Best of all, it didn't come with craploads of "demo" software. It's a pleasure to type on (I have yet to use a mouse with it) and I can't see myself purchasing anything else in the future. Since I don't run windoze, I won't be obligated to buy a new laptop when Vista comes out - same for games. This thing will function just fine for years to come, and I can keep my tower up to date with the money I save. Bottom line, you get what you pay for; this is a great machine.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Otter]

Sorry, I'm with him. I have a TiBook G4 and a work-provided T40. Even after you take the operating system out of the equation, the Mac is lighter, faster, smaller, more comfortable, has a longer battery life and doesn't have that annoying high-friction top the Thinkpad has. And above all, the Mac is less deep, which makes all the difference in the world when you're working on a plane.

The one advantage I'll give the T40 is that the USB ports on the side make for easier use of a memory stick in tight quarters. Beyond that, the only thing I'd prefer it for is hammering nails.

TPs Middling as of Late, Support Lacking

[MSTCrow5429]

I have mixed feelings about getting another TP. I bought a TP T42 a bit before the acquisition, and it had screen issues, some parts just feel not tied down to anything (most notably the lower right palmrest area), and the rear ports aren't lined up exactly, most notably the AC port. I had to fight with IBM to get the screen replaced after they damaged it replacing the first screen, which had a number of dead pixels. When they shipped it back, the LCD bezel had gouges all over the place. So I had to send it in again to have the LCD bezel replaced. I believe that TPs are still the best laptop out there, but that's because everything else is really crappy, while TPs are just sort of crappy. And the Trackpoint. I don't know if IBM (which I know is sending its laptops to outsourced repair depots) has decided to stop trying or was this bad in support previously, or if they decided to make shoddier TPs sometime before the deal went through. In a couple years, I want another TP, but Lenovo had better cut their prices and offer the old IBM quality and support, or else I might take a hard look at the poor man's TP, the Toshiba.

You didn't buy a ThinkPad...

[Hymer]

...You bought an IBM.
If it sounds silly, it is... but it is also true.
If IBM tomorrow stared to manufacture laptops based on the G5 or Cell people would buy them just because of those 3 letters.
--
I don't do Windows.

Fake, but 2nd video useful

[porkThreeWays]

I know these are fakes, but the 2nd video would be interesting to see in production. A laptop that shuts itself off when it detects it has gotten wet. Many times you will be able to save the data if you shut it off quick enough (and in some cases you can still save the laptop). Also, I'd like to see keyboards with like a plastic covering (we had them on our keyboards in high school). It basically rolls off spilled liquids. The ones we had in high school were cheap and sucked, but I'm sure quality ones could be integrated into laptop keyboards with a little vent so spilled liquids roll right off the keyboard and away from the laptop.

Re:Fake, but 2nd video useful

[LaserBeams]

Older (but still recent) Thinkpad keyboard trays were sealed units, waterproof, with a raised lip around the edges, that could hold about 4 ounces of liquid. The newest Thinkpads, after the Lenovo purchase, have the same thing, except there is a port that goes straight through to the the underside of the laptop from the keyboard tray, allowing it to drain.

Of course it's perception

[muellerr1]

Companies don't collectively spend billions of dollars a year on marketing because it doesn't work -- to misappropriate a real estate quote, the three things that matter are Marketing, Marketing, and Marketing. If Lenovo's market share is falling, it's because they're mismanaging their marketing plan and relying too much on market share momentum.

Great. Now I've over-used the word market and it's lost all meaning to me. Market. Market. Market. What a funny-sounding word. Market.

I bought one.

[oyenstikker]

I bought an Thinkpad R43, still IBM branded. Big mistake. Customer service is still handled by IBM, but they don't care one bit about the customers, because they're not really their customers.

I had a simple problem: you get one install option: Windows XP Pro on one partition, taking the entire drive. I wanted multiple partitions for Linux and Windows XP. I called and asked for XP install media. They are completely disinterested in helping me. They told me to go buy a copy of Windows XP Pro. (Even though a license comes with the machine.) The boxed versions do not work on the laptop though. The installer silently fails to get past "inspecting your computer's setup". Customer support didn't care. "So you're telling me that if I want anything other than your default install, I shouldn't buy an IBM?" "Uh. . .yes." "Okay. We have a lot of IBM servers too. I guess if this is the kind of support we can expect, we'll start buying Suns. "Uh. . .Okay. Buy". They just don't care.

Buying a name != buying trust

[Kaboom13]

I don't see how this has anything to do with the fact they are a chinese company. Americans especially are used to buying products all over the world. The problem is Thinkpads have always been overpriced compared to their competitors, but people bought them anyways because they had IBM behind them. Lenovo bought the Thinkpad name but thats all they really bought. The thing is the target market for thinkpads (geeks and corporate buyers) know that lenovo bought the Thinkpad and that Thinkpad's arent really IBM Thinkpads anymore, they are Lenovo laptops with a Thinkpad logo on them. Buying up a brand name and slapping it on your product works for cheap consumer goods, but the target market for Thinkpads won't be fooled so easily, they read tech/business news and they consider carefuly before buying.

    Some sort of prejudice about buying from a chinese company is just a stupid spin put on the article. The real reason sales are falling is because Lenovo bought a name but not the trust associated with it, and like any new entry into the laptop market they have to earn their trust. When you see Lenovo thinkpads still alive and kicking after 5+ years of hard use like you see with a lot of IBM Thinkpads, people will start to trust them, and they will be able to charge that same premium price IBM could.

Perception versus reality

[spago]

I'm not sure why this is so surprising. People make blanket judgements about manufacturers based on country of origin all the time. Sometimes it's due to perceived reputation, other times the argument is about loyalty. I find it ironic though, how many of these "I'll never buy a Chinese laptop" people will later happily drive to work in their foreign car. Perception is often out of step with reality. Chinese quality (for all things) seems to be considered lower, German manufacturing (like VW) gets more credit than their J.D. Power ratings suggest, while the perception of domestic autos is much lower than deserved, especially given huge improvements made in recent models. The only way to beat this is to deliver and keep proving everyone wrong (i.e. the revitalized Nissan). If Lenovo does this, they'll be fine.

I bought an ThinkPad T series recently from Lenovo. The price was heavily discounted and actually about equal to a similarly equipped Dell. I prefer the ThinkPad keyboard (if you've never used one you won't understand), my previous ThinkPad's were all well built, and the TrackPoint is the only mouse substitute I can stand for more than 10 seconds. That and the fact that it's a nice laptop for running Linux on.... No quality differences noted thus far!

Branding matters?

[suv4x4]

Is this shocking to anyone. Yes some of us know that a handful of Chinese companies make the computers of all 99% of all desktop and laptop manifacturers, but many don't.

So they look for brand identity, external appearance. Country of manifacturing on the brand is a part of the brand.

Over here (Bulgaria) there's plenty of companies running shared hosting business. Their tech support are all Bulgarian boys and girls, but they all have US name pseudonyms. One of those companies I've internal info on (shall remain nameless) insisted on being patriotic and splattering everything with the Bulgarian flag and not using pseudonyms.

After an incredibly weak few months, were even purchase by Bulgarians were weak, they joined the "let's pretend the world is US" bandwagon and sales quickly jumped up.

I'm not so

[mikesd81]

sure that the whole story on possible Chines spying on America with computers doesn't factor in.

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/30/134 4211&from=rss

I'm suprised this wasn't in the little blurb.

Mexico

[Roger_Wilco]

I recently bought a new Lenovo Thinkpad, and strangely enough, it was "hecho en Mexico". (Of Asian parts, no doubt.)

A Lot of Companies are Moving to Dell

[Greyfox]

I've noticed a large migration from IBM to Dell. A symptom of this is that all the company's desktop machines will be Dell but people who haven't got laptop upgrades yet still have thinkpads, while new employees who need laptops all get issued Dell machines. If you look around in a company like this you might find an old IBM desktop or two lurking around in a non-desktop capacity.

For a long time there it seemed like every company I visited had all IBM gear -- MCI, General Electric, EDS, several banks, you name it. Typically they'd get a mainframe and it was easier just to fill the whole IT solution at the same company. Then Dell came along and stole all those customers away. IBM just can't compete at Dell's price point and they've been getting rid of more and more small iron capacity. The only reason they haven't jettisoned their non-lexmark printer division is that they can't find a buyer.

Perhaps Lenovo is just discovering why IBM wanted to get out of the laptop market in the first place...

Rant generator?

[miscz]

This rant lacks... substance ;p

Thinkpad quality is not what it once was

[dcavanaugh]

I'm not sure if the issue is Lenovo or IBM, but the problem is more than just consumer perception. Our experience with T series was very good. After years of service, I retired my T21 and replaced it with a T43. It works, but there are minor "fit and finish" issues that make me wonder if it will hold up as well as my old T21. As others have said, the Thinkpads have the reputation of being sturdier than the average notebook. I'm not so sure that is true anymore.

The Lenovo vs IBM issue may have little to do with the actual problem. Consumers want faster CPUS and bigger displays jammed into progressively thinner/lighter computers. My T43 is really big, runs really hot, battery life is not so good, the docking station connection is finicky, and it would weigh a ton if not for the slim/flimsy parts that replaced the beefy components of the T21. I really like my computer, but it's more or less on par with competitors' offerings and therefore not worth a premium price.

After years of buying Thinkpads, we are back to Dell because of price/performance. The old Dells were no match for the old Thinkpads, but I'm having a tough time making the case to buy Thinkpads now. Sometimes we still buy Thinkpads, but only when we get substantial discounts.

Re:Thinkpad quality is not what it once was

[spotter]

I have a T42p, which I upgraded to from my T21. Overall the T42p is a bunch better contrsucted laptop than my t21. The only "negative" is that it comes with a 7200rpm drive (hence quotes) so its more liable to overheating (i.e. airplane w/ blanket on my lap) and more prone to errors when I abuse it. IBM on the othrehand has been good to me and replaced the HD quickly the few times I've done bad things to my laptop (i.e. chair gets cought on power code, and yank and quickly its on the floor, too bad APS doesn't really work in linux, though at least progress is being made on that front)

A moral choice

[cryfreedomlove]

It is true, as many of you have pointed out, that most lap tops are manufactured in China. However, moral symbolism is overtly at play here. Everyone knows IBM is true blue American and everyone knows Lenovo is an arm of the Chinese communist government. When you tee up a contrast that clear, people will make the choice the avoid the overtly Chinese product. The people who remember watching Chinese tanks crush unarmed teenagers in Tianenmenn Square just don't want to buy Lenovo products.

New Lenovos

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a state government agency. We have been a Dell house for years - very few problems, and when one occured, nearly overnight service/repair/parts. For some unknown reason, the Dell contract was voided, and we are now a Lenovo shop. First pair of laptops we recived, directly out of the box, one blue-screened on first boot, second wouldn't start at all. Not a good sign.

Also, the waranty is limited, and service is not free - flat rate charges apply, and our IT department is not allowed to touch them.

I have a Dell - one of the last purchased before the contract change. I'm going to nurse it along for years, I think.

Keyboard Manufacturers are different from laptop m

[dilbert researcher]

Keyboard Manufacturers are different from laptop manufacturers. IBM sourced its keboards from 3 companies NMB, Chicony and Alps. Lenovo still does the same. So the keyboards are basically the same in the old and new thinkpads. (I know I had two). The thing is that amongst the suppliers NMB> Alps> Chicony So tell your friend to order a NMB keyboard and he should be fine

ThinkPad is dead

[Tetard]

I swore some 4 years ago when I got my first ThinkPad that I would never use another brand. Recently I got a Z60t (the smaller of the two widescreen models) as a replacement for a defective T41 (these have motherboard / chassis issues). On the plus side, I can say that the chassis construction is definitely sturdier than the T41, probably on par with the T43.

On the down side:

Minor stuff:

- windows keys have appeared -- call that a question of taste, but it means a smaller spacebar, and keys I'll never use.
- display quality is down: vertical viewing angles on the panel are dismal, especially for a widescreen

Biggies imho:

- the CPU fan blows _downwards_, not out the sides. If you thought it was hot to have a laptop on your thighs, think again.
- the PSU has CHANGED! Forget that we have 5-6 other thinkpads at the office: I can't borrow the PSU from one of my colleagues! The new models rate 90W instead of 72W. Different connector and all...
- the RAM is not accessible from under the chassis, now one has to remove the palm rest, as it is placed under the trackpad
- the audio jacks are placed on the front of the machine. Awkward (the Z60m doesn't have that problem).

All in all ? Well, the Z series are definitely consumer-ish, so I guess I should wait and see what happens with the T series. But I know that within the next 3 years, my company will have to start looking at alternatives. I simply don't think there's incentive enough for the ThinkPad as we know it to continue to exist.

Track Point!

[Moe Taxes]

My new Z60m was built in North Carolina. It's solid, sturdy, and beautiful. I just can't see where anyone could say they are cutting corners. The keyboard is excellent, not as good as my 1993 model M, but better than other laptops. But the most important feature is the track point mouse controller. I have a 6 year old sony laptop with a track point, but I haven't seen anything new with a track point except from Lenovo.

Those scratch pads are just flaky. Maybe it's me but when I use a scratch pad the mouse cursor will blink and studder then flash over the other side of screen, it clicks when it should move, double clicks when it should just click, or just sits and stares at you while you scratch away, finally catching up by flying all over the screen. In fact my only complaint with the Think Pad is that it also has a scratch pad. The Windows drivers allow you to disable the scratch pad, but I have not found the equivelent since I upgraded to Ubuntu.

Reasons why companies by Thinkpads

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a large company that is a Microsoft shop. Yeah, we have some AS/400's but we brought those in kicking and screaming... The company much prefers wintel boxes...

We bought Thinkpads and were are definitely NOT an IBM shop. We bought them because they are rugged, and don't break down. Sure, they are ugly, but in a good way. I don't need neon lights on my laptop and neither does anyone else. Neon just says "punk" to me.

Anyway, I've had a T40 for 3 years and zero problems. All our laptops power supplies are interchangeable, and so are the docking stations.

Unfortunately, the company is no longer buying them. We've switched to HP. Don't know why.

But I can tell you that they'll before they take my T40 away, one of us will be dead... me or the laptop that is...

what i want from Lenovo

[FudRucker]

i want to see some sub 500 dollar USD laptops with GNU/Linux preinstalled, with wireless working without ndiswrapper having to be used...

No More IBM Service

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI....ThinkPads are no longer serviced by IBM. They are being serviced by a company called QualXserv. This device is just one of many that went to QX this month.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[IntlHarvester]

Similar situation for me (personal PBG4, work T31 -- which is smaller than the PB) -- Obviously the Mac wins on style, and like the ThinkPad is a well-built machine (lid closes tightly, no gaps or big seams).

However, the PowerBook really feels like a delicate piece of electronics that needs to be handled with care. The lid bends easily. It's not comfortable to hold in one hand. The keyboard is mushy. If I ever dropped it, I doubt it would survive. If it wasn't for the shiny aluminum, it would feel cheap.

The ThinkPad? Like people are saying -- it's a brick. Pick it up, drop it on the desk, push and pull the lid -- except for the stupid finikey DVD drive, it just feels solid.

Anyway, the Mac makes a great personal laptop. But if a company rolled them out to their sales force, half of them would be destroyed within a few weeks. It just doesn't have that commercial-quality solidity.

Mostly seem to be making them tougher

[porkThreeWays]

I don't know the exact timeline of a lot of these features (whether IBM or not), but it seems their biggest selling points are for security, and for damage protection. It seems they are trying to produce models for the business market that needs a no/little frills laptop that needs to be secure and reliable. If you look at their "compare series details", there are 8 features listed. 3 are for damage protection and 2 are for security. Even by looking at their product advertisement material, it seems mostly geared toward that market. I think their goal is for a different market than you mention. I doubt we'll see the Alienware Thinkpad in the next 5 years.

Thinkpad and MacBook Pro ....

[King_TJ]

Is it just me, or does it seem a bit odd that so many people posting here have commented that although they like Thinkpads, they'd "have to consider a MacBook Pro, now that they can boot Windows"?

I have a MacBook Pro myself, and I love it! But I'm still finding it a little confusing that of all people, long-time Thinkpad owners might find it a promising alternative?

The IBM Thinkpad was largely purchased for its ruggedness - and as nice as a MacBook Pro is, "rugged" hardly comes to mind with one. It's more like "stylish and meant to be treated with care". The aluminum case will easily get scratched, scuffed up, or dented/dinged up (with a minority of users even having problems with sweaty hands causing corrosion around the wrist-wrest area!). The elegant backlit keyboards are great, but don't seem to take huge amounts of abuse either, judging from the floor samples at several CompUSA stores with missing keys on them.

You certainly wouldn't just "toss a MacBook Pro in the back of a trunk or truck-bed" and expect it to be ok upon arrival. Old Thinkpads were known for getting abused this way on a regular basis. (The black textured plastic case helped hide scratches and dings.)

Re:Thinkpad and MacBook Pro ....

[Hymer]

"toss a MacBook Pro in the back of a trunk or truck-bed" I think (having both a PowerBook and a ThinkPad that a PowerBook would survive this... it wouldn't look nice but I'm quite sure it would work.
...and we who handle our laptop this way... we don't really care if the scratches they got can be seen or not.

Re:Thinkpad and MacBook Pro ....

[Gentlewhisper]

"toss a MacBook Pro in the back of a trunk or truck-bed" I think (having both a PowerBook and a ThinkPad that a PowerBook would survive this... it wouldn't look nice but I'm quite sure it would work. ...and we who handle our laptop this way... we don't really care if the scratches they got can be seen or not.

So? You will lose your laptop the next time your "logic" board dies and your Applecare coverage gets voided because of "physical abuse".

Re:Thinkpad and MacBook Pro ....

[Hymer]

I'm sorry... I didn't know the matter was service level on trashed hardware...
Nothing can match IBM's servic level.
BTW. if I trash my laptop I'll pay for the service.

Other reasons - 1) layoffs of US staff, 2) Apple

[JonTurner]

Personally, it boils down to two reasons:

Layoffs and Corporate Deception
#1 - Soon after the completion of the IBM/Lenovo buyout/merger/whatever, it was announced that IBM would be laying off 300-350 of its 1800 employees in Research Triangle Park(RTP), North Carolina.

http://www.trianglejobs.com/front/story/2913958p -9364351c.html
It's a big shift for a company that promised 400 new jobs in October when it accepted $14 million in state and local incentives to build a corporate campus in Morrisville. Some of the incentives depend on Lenovo maintaining its current employment level for the 11-year duration of the grant, as well as adding and keeping the jobs it said it would create over the next five years.
Lenovo's layoffs wouldn't violate the terms of the incentives until early 2007, when its first report to the government is due, giving it time to boost its work force again.

IOW, they fire off the well paying jobs, and replace with call center operators. Offshoring. Well, screw that! Not buying Lenovo is a show of support for US engineering and a show of solidarity.

#2 - Lenovo = not sexy. Sorry, but no self-respecting geek wants to carry a Lenovo laptop. This box practically shouts "I SOLD OUT TO THE MAN!! I WRITE CRYSTAL REPORT QUERIES AND MAINTAIN LOTUS NOTES DATABASES FOR A LIVING!" Meanwhile, Alpha-geeks can be seen hacking on widescreen dual-core Intel MacBookPros which boot Windows "if you have to" but run OSX "'cause you want to."

100% Perception

[Decker-Mage]

I'm usually the local go-to guy for fixing ThinkPads when someone doesn't want to send it back [IBM had no problem with this] and comparing the Lenovo ThinkPads to the IBM ThinkPads, the quality of construction, design, and parts hasn't changed a bit. If anything, I think the changes, actually more along the lines of additions really, has improved the line across the board. My short list of what I recommend and buy is always topped by ThinkPads.

A line from the movie Armageddon comes to mind everytime I hear someone compare products from different companies and use the country of the corporate label on the product as some kind of justification as to why they went with, say, the "US" product. "American spacecraft, Russian spacecraft, all made from part made in Taiwan!" [probably mangled a bit.] I don't think you can even *find* a laptop made in the USA. Besides, IBM engineers and others went over to Lenovo when the hardware division was spit off. Same people, different corporation. Whoop-te-do.

I can't speak for everyone, but...

[smacktits]

In October I bought a top-end R52 and it has performed admirably. Since then it's been dropped numerous times, been to Australia and back, and to San Francisco and back (I live in the UK) and various trips to Europe, and hasn't faltered once. No keys came off, no cracks in the case, not a single dead pixel on the monitor. Having owned Thinkpads for years now, based on my experiences of post-IBM Thinkpads I would not hesitate to recommend them, or buy another one myself.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Luscious868]

As others have pointed out, the Chinese goverment has a majority stake in the company. While that doesn't make it 100% owned by the Chinese goverment, they have enough of a stake in the company that people ought to be aware of it.

Not the same.

[aussersterne]

All these years people weren't buying ThinkPads so much as they were buying IBM. No matter how hard Lenovo tries, they won't be IBM.

Even if the workmanship remains (and I doubt it will, since Lenovo has to make ThinkPads profitable enough to stay in business, a problem IBM didn't have), the service can't possibly. Lenovo doesn't have the resources or the infrastructure to compete on that point.

The buyout was the end of an era. For myself, as a decades-long ThinkPad user, when I buy next I'll probably buy Apple, since they seem to have taken IBM's niche in the notebook/laptop market as of late in terms of build quality and service. I run Linux on them anyway and have done for over a decade, so I'm OS-agnostic in terms of included software.

Just give me quality hardware that isn't trying to compete with Wal-Mart or CompUSA or Sears and I'll do the rest.

Bought IBM's not buying Lenovo's

[InsaneProcessor]

The company is owned and run in China. While I cannot control where American, Japanese, or Korean countries subcontract, I can choose who I deal with. I will not buy from any Chinese company if there is an alternative. I do not trust them, nor do I want to finance any country that does not fully support freedoms like free speach. I do support the people when I can but will not support the government.

You bought the wrong machine

[metamatic]

Consumers want faster CPUS and bigger displays jammed into progressively thinner/lighter computers. My T43 is really big, runs really hot, battery life is not so good, the docking station connection is finicky, and it would weigh a ton if not for the slim/flimsy parts that replaced the beefy components of the T21.

If you wanted thin and light, you should have bought an X series. The T series is designed for performance at the cost of heat and weight.

Re:You bought the wrong machine

[dcavanaugh]

I know about the X series. When all is said and done, I need the performance more than I need to save on heat and weight, so I have the right computer. I want something more rugged than average, and I'll tolerate some heat/weight to get there. The X series is alot more expensive, for a machine that is less likely to tolerate abuse. My laptop leads a pretty cushy life 95% of the time, but when I pack it up for an around-the-world trip anything can happen.

The point is that the recent Thinkpads are not killing the competition like they used to on utility and durability. For example, the Ultrabay slot in the docking station is no longer compatible with the Ultrabay slot on the computer itself. In general, the latching connector on the docking station is a downgrade from prior models. Beyond that, my new T43 does not look like it would tolerate some of the abuse that my T21 did.

I don't know if I should blame IBM or Lenovo -- the situation exists either way.

I don't have the perception that they are junk now

[turbohappy]

I don't have the perception that Lenovo's laptops are junk now, but I can't see how they are superior to laptops from other companies that cost hundreds less. You knew you could trust an IBM Thinkpad...without that they just can't justify the price markup. If their pricing was more competitive I bet you would see a lot more sales.

with "upgrades" like these...

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads have now traded up to an HP or a Toshiba.

That's not how I would define an upgrade, but hey, YMMV.

No kidding?

[nurb432]

Well of course they are losing business, they are no longer an IBM thinkpad so fewer people want them.

I dont think it matters that its china, but it does matter its not big blue. Now thinkpads are just like any other piece of imported junk. Might as well for for the price point.

Chinese company, made in USA

[whitelabrat]

The crazy thing about the Lenovo Thinkpads is that they are still manufactured in Morrisville North Carolina last time I checked. They are likely more American than the HP's or Toshibas?

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

Okay, I DO understand where you're coming from. However, you totally missed/ignored the points I made.

My point was not any of the following:

• The Thinkpad is the fastest thing around.
• The Thinkpad is the sexiest thing around.
• The Thinkpad is the smallest thing around.
• The Thinkpad has the longest battery life around.

My points were:

• The Thinkpad is a business laptop. It doesn't require flashy looks or sooper-dooper gaming.
• The Thinkpad is one of the TOUGHEST and most rugged non-ruggedized laptops out there. Just about anyone who's used one for an appreciable length of time will agree with the following sentiment. SOLID.

Many business users put their laptops through a certain amount of physical abuse (accidental or not). Do that with a Mac laptop, and you'd better have an AppleCare plan. Because you're going to break something. Thus, you don't see Mac laptops in wide deployment in many business environments (except on TV). The same cannot be said for the Thinkpad.

Objective test

[chiph]

My T43P (that I bought just after the sale to Lenovo) had a SODIMM module go bad over the weekend. I've placed a service call, and we'll see how well things go.

Chip H.

How about GM cars

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard GM cars are designed and built in America by Americans. I've also used GM cars on two separate occassions and I know they positively sucked when it came to durability. I've since then used second hand Japanese cars - one was 10 year old and ran like charm and other is 6 years old and runs like new.

Any American care to explain this _rationally_? Other wise STFU and don't go blabbering about how American design and American build are the best - it's simply not a fact. (There are good American companies and products, no denying that - but it's not as if that's the end of quality.)

Re:How about GM cars

[Anonymous Coward]

What does GM have to do with ThinkPads?

Re:How about GM cars

[Grishnakh]

This is simple: Japan > America > China
Everyone knows Japanese stuff is usually the best (except for Sony of course), but it's also pretty expensive. American stuff is ok, but it also depends on the industry: Americans can't design a car worth a damn (except for the Corvette), but they've usually done very well with electronics (where are AMD and Intel located again?). China, generally speaking, is where you send stuff to be made dirt-cheap.

Of course, this is all very broad generalizations, so take it with a grain of salt.

Your post, however, seems to lump together Japan and China. You should be careful with that; the two are extremely different, and even worse they hate each other and will hate you for comparing them.

Doubtful about quality.

[C10H14N2]

Americans are pretty well aware that most of their stuff is manufactured in Asia, but there's a different sense to getting things from Taiwan vs. China -- akin to someone deliberately buying Puerto Rican rum instead of Cuban rum. Calling it "unwarranted xenophobia" is more unwarranted than the supposed xenophobia. There are some very serious concerns with China from their labor standards and human rights record to their relations with North Korea and Taiwan.

Some people take those issues very, very seriously and would rather give their money to someone partnering with Taiwan, which indicates it is something more complex than simply being xenophobic. There are very real, very concrete and in many cases extremely valid reasons why people avoid Chinese products when they can.

Re:Doubtful about quality.

[pintomp3]

but the laptops were coming from there anyway. if the cuban run was being called bicardi for a while then changed to the name of the cuban company that actually bottled it, what's the difference?

Re:Doubtful about quality.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like when Micron bought the IBM/Toshiba memory fab business. The same memory made buy the same people but now it was a Micron product which people will typically pay a premium for.

I don't hang my thinkpad outside the window to dry

[gd23ka]

As an IBM Thinkpad customer of many years all the way from my first 486 notebook to nowadays being
the unhappy owner of a T41 I can tell you this: Any notebook SUCKS the power jack of which comes
loose over time!! It used to be that I would have to fiddle with the plug a little until the
thinkpad went beep-bap acknowledging it had power, then later on it got worse and I had to put a book
beneath the plug so it got proper contact now the jack has come completely lose and has no electrical
contact whatsoever anymore. The problem with the power jack is known at IBM/Lenovo and I handle the
notebook really carefully meaning I don't hang my Thinkpad by the power supply outside my window for it
to dry. However IBM still stick to their crap warranty and wont fix something most obviously their fault.
You fucked up IBM, I bought it from you so don't point me to Lenovo, get me a new one instead that doesn't
have such a cheap and worthless power jack!

Back in the days I would go out of my way to tell people to get Thinkpads because you couldn't get a
more rugged and durable notebook anywhere else. Nowadays the way I see it Thinkpads have become the same
crap just like HP or Fujitsu-Siemens kaputbooks and the way I see it IBM didn't come up with the idea to
sell the Thinkpad line to Lenovo over night. They had ample time to deliberately lower quality to what
you can reasonably expect from chinese Lenovo.

I don't know what notebook I'm going to get next but I doubt it very much that it will be from Lenovo.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Provocateur]

And the things, while not the greatest gaming systems (Internationa BUSINESS Machines anyone?)

One of the things I noticed with the Lenovos is that they have better graphics capabilities now (or was it towards the last days with IBM? somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe not for turbocharged gaming, but at least for higher resolution displays, multihead, and widescreen DVD viewing. Xgl anyone?

I've noticed they are something to brag about now, instead of jsut reading 'integrated video' as one of the features. I'd like to hear from a Lenovo owner.
 

IBM Annual Report has Lenovo Insert

[Anonymous Coward]

Received the 2005 IBM annual report a couple weeks ago (I own some stock) and was somewhat surprised to find an insert offering good deals on Thinkpads due to being a stockholder. Discounted prices and free RAM upgrades.

Anyway, at work I have been using a Pentium 3 Thinkpad for about 2 years now with absolutely no problems. Running WinXP with about 380mb of ram, dual monitors (laptop screen plus CRT) and it runs just fine for typical business use (outlook, multiple internet browser windows, access, and sql frontend all running pretty much all day).

Only other machine that does as well is my Mac.

User errors

[zanderredux]

have had no problems (aside from defective user errors)

As I always supected, there is an all-encompassing solution for IT problems: replace the defective users!

Re:User errors

[WindBourne]

replace the defective users!

That is happening. It is called outsourcing.

Dropping

[PhYrE2k2]

I dropped my Thinkpad 385XD off the roof of my car into the corner of the laptop without any case... twice.
It didn't even skip a beat and is still used for e-mail and excel as a 'spare' field laptop in case anything goes wrong.

P-233/96MB ram/6GB HDD.

Man that was quality. Every Dell I've had since them (purchased due to price, and I've owned 3 of them since)- has had failed parts, is falling apart, has loose components.

IBM Had it down pat. That cost needs to come down a bit though to compete with Dell's laptops- even if the quality is higher.

-M

Lenovo and IBM

[SIGBUS]

IBM and Lenovo are still tight business partners.

Indeed. I recently bought a refurbished T30, and decided that I wanted to get the product recovery CDs to make it easier for me to install a larger hard drive - not to mention being able to recover the XP Pro installation easily if my Linux install went awry. I've never been a fan of recovery partitions in any case.

I brought up Lenovo's site, looked up the correct support number, called it... and reached IBM in Atlanta. After giving them the necessary information (the discs are not free when you have a used machine), it was shipped via next day air from another IBM facility.

I must say, I love the T30, and the refurbished T22 that I bought a couple of years ago is still going strong as well, in spite of it spending many hours sitting on my car's front seat running gpsdrive and kismet.

Lenovo have cheapened some of the thinkpads

[Bert64]

We have a large number of T42s, and recently acquired some T43s... The T42s had intel network cards, while the T43s have cheaper broadcom cards, which consume more cpu while transferring, have trouble negotiating with some types of switches, and begin losing packets much sooner when the cable length gets too long.

Re:Lenovo have cheapened some of the thinkpads

[AlexisGrey]

Somewhat misleading! You really do have to try and go out of your way to buy the Thinkpads that don't have the Intel Pro Gigabyte NICs - I believe only the basic T43's in the current models actually do. The T60 line does use the Intel. And the fact that they are not using Intel Nic's on these models is pretty evident on the website. While disappointed in this, I however, do not think this is an issue with Lenovo cheapening things up. After all, the Broadcomm cards are used by IBM in their servers - That being the a good part of the reason I use 3Com or Intel Server Nics in all servers we do.

No, its true

[xbmodder]

IBM just screwed me a little over a week ago. I asked them whether they had any other T60s than the ones on the website, or they had any in release. The next day they ran a huge ad on their home page that said "THE NEW T60" and it pointed to a week and a half old page with the T60p, the model I wanted. If this was IBM still, I doubt that this would happen.

Head... exploding... must not... bang head

[Catbeller]

The Thinkpads are now branded Lenovo. They are made by the same company and the same engineers. IBM just stuck a label on the Lenovo machines! Nothing has changed.

Perception == reality. Scary.

Lexus Laptops anyone

[olddotter]

Based on this arguement Toyota should start selling laptops under the Lexus brand.

We moved from Dell Laptops to Lenova...

[ChozSun]

... and as the guy who supports them, our company could not be happier.

We have dealt with some harsh quality issues with Dell laptops (pick a model, we get them all) and my boss decided to make the switch. We stick with T42s for ultra-portables while going with the Z60's for desktop replacement.

My only beef is that you cannot easily wipe and reinstall Windows on a Z60s (you must make some CDs from the recovery screen before blasting the laptop.) Windows isn't clean due it comes shipped clock full of McAfees and other crap (but what OEM ships a clean version of Windows anyways.)

Other than that, we love the laptops so far.

hmm???

[Ayanami Rei]

Most of the components are Intel-sourced, which are made in malaysia and designed by international teams.
The Powerbooks are manufactured by Quanta out of Taiwan.

The design is Apple, but the components come from everywhere.

Fine

[GuloGulo]

"Not buying a product for the sole reason that you dont want the profits to go to another country (and make that country richer/more powerful) is xenophobia at work (fear or hatred of foreigners; in this case, fear)."

Fine then, what are we afraid of?

You can expand the definition of xenophobia all you like, and mis-apply it to any number of inappropriate situations.

But this isn't one of them. In this case, it's not a matter of being afraid or hating anyone. It's a matter of spending my money in support of a company that meets my expectations for quality and value.

Lenovo has neither of those.

As others have said, it's not that "lenovo" is a minus, but rather "IBM" is a big plus.

And it's certainly not xenophobia, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

Then you'd better buy one. Hadn't you?

[Chas]

Gonna make you an offer...you can't lefuse!

ThinkPad vs. Latitude

[Chilulu]

Three years ago, my company rolled out same-model ThinkPads to all laptop-using employees around the world as part of a 6S effort to standardize hardware. This year, they're doing it again but switching to a Dell Latitude machine. I really like ThinkPad but can't really comment on Lenovo since I've never used one manufatured after the acquisition. I've also never used a Dell for work so I don't know what to expect. I realize that most PC makers get their parts manufatured in Japan, but for some reason (narrow-minded, I know), I don't want to get a PC that's explicitly originating from China.

Re:ThinkPad vs. Latitude

[Chilulu]

Oops, typos in the last sentence... which should read: I realize that most PC makers get their parts manufactured in China, but for some reason (narrow-minded, I know), I don't want to get a PC that's explicitly originating from China.

Chinese Companies

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese come to this country and fill our universities with grad students that can't speak English and leave as soon as they get their degree. They rip off our IP at every single turn and have stolen all of our domestic manufacturing.

I refuse to buy a Chinese and contribute to their assault on our economy when I can get a compable machine from a non-Chinese company. My departure from the very nice thinkpad is my "middle finger" to China.

It's a little blurrier than that.

[Ayanami Rei]

What tends to happen is that companies like Motorola, Intel, NVidia and Broadcomm first release their development/platform kits.
These are the recommended designs that form the basis of entire line of end-user products.
Companies like Quanta, Asus, Foxconn start experimenting with the platform and find ways to productize them.
Then they pitch designs to OEMs like Dell, HP and Apple, which turn around and offer counter-suggestions and improvements, branding/tiering choices, etc.
Sometimes though the OEM buys into the design with hardly any changes at all, this is the ODM case. But even the "OEM" cases aren't really much engineering at all. The a large part of OEM is the branding (and sometimes software/firmware).

The quality of the new machines IS lower

[xtal]

This may have started with IBM, but the quality on new Lenovo thinkpads is NOT the same as the older generation. I buy old thinkpads off ebay for test machines, and the older ones are metal framed, with solid latches. The new units are plastic, bendy, and do not have near the same quality feel to them. The old ones (T21's) are tanks.

The problem is not manufacture in China. I work with some top notch high end board assemblers there. The problem is companies who shave pennies in stupid places. After seeing the new generation thinkpads, I wouldn't buy them, even used.

That's why my notebook is an Apple. :-)

Re:The quality of the new machines IS lower

[Guido von Guido]

Thinkpad quality has been in my experience pretty mixed. My employer has bought them for the last 7-8 years. The models I've used/have supported/have heard about:

• 380D/380XD: Solid as a rock. We still occasionally send these to customer sites as appliances.
• 390/390X: These were just awful. Virtually every one who had one of these eventually had some sort of hardware issue. For instance, on mine the hinges eventually came loose from the body of the machine--and I typically don't do anything more serious than open and close it two or three times a day. I think I had the motherboard replaced a couple of times, too.
• A21: I went through two of these. The screen crapped out on the first one after a year or so. From what I gather, overall we had some problems with these, but not too many.
• R51: No problems in the six months I've had it...

Anyway...

[Ayanami Rei]

... what makes Lenovo different than IBM being in charge is the IBM name, and IBM's ability to market to its customer base.

That's the struggle that an ODM is going to face in the American market... figuring out the posturing and branding, and building a reputation. Taiwan has a tendancy to try to direct-sell stuff just because they can -- relying on the OEMs or distributors to pick what will sell out from the stuff that misses the mark. That kinda stuff might work at WalMart but it won't work in corporate America (at least not in the same ways). It will be difficult for them to reach the Western consumers directly unless they already know how to cater to corporate needs. And the value of brand inertia can't be underestimated... I'm surprised the chucked the IBM logo so quickly. I hope its because they hope to gain converts and let the product stand on its merits.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

No. Even in the later days of IBM ownership, they were putting FireGL graphics into their higher end systems.

My A31p had a one.

No misconception they will loose share

[Been on TV]

With the IBM logo on the TP, as a corporate customer, you could walk into an IBM office in any country in the world and hold your IBM sales rep and services organization responsible if the quality of your TPs was not up to standard. Where did you say your Lenovo sales or services office was again? -- Tought so.

My bet is these corporate customers will take a good look at Apple's MacBook Pro.

Everything comes from China anyway...

[dtjohnson]

"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?"

Now, that's funny! Just about everyone, apparently. Tell those people to open up their HP or Dell or whatever box and look at the components inside. Everything in there will say 'Made in China' on it.

US-based support team

[no_such_user]

I do appreciate that any time I've called IBM/Lenovo for Thinkpad support, I always get a US-based representative who seems to be at least somewhat invested in giving me good support. That's more than I can say for Dell, which *every* phone call I place for support gets answered by someone who is very difficult for me to communicate with (mostly due to language issues) and, more importantly, COMPLETELY out-of-touch with the technology they support and the company they are representing.

Oh PLEASE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo is losing current ThinkPad series customers to HP, Toshiba and other notebook vendors because of customer perception.

Nevermind the fact that ThinkPads have earned and held onto a very bad reputation for a number of years. Nevermind the fact that many people jokingly call them StinkPads. Nah, that couldn't have anything to do with the fact that people aren't running to buy them as quickly as possible.

Maybe they are better than they used to be -- heck, maybe they are better than all the other notebooks used for those purposes. They still have to deal with a bad reputation and the effects it has on business.

I know it not xenophobia..

[msoftsucks]

It's the concern that China controls these machines through secret chips that they refuse to fully document. I have a bunch of clients in the banking industry and they have placed Lenovo and ThinkPads on the banned list because of this. Also, they are in the process of replacing most of the existing ThinkPads with other machines, because these may be tainted and they can't guarantee if these machines are not reporting back to China any proprietary secrets. They fear that the human rights hating Communist Chinese govt may have some kind of back hole into these machines that may at some point put the banks very survival in jeopardy.

Hint: I don't care

[metamatic]

I'll pay more for a Linux laptop so long as I can be certain that not one penny goes to Microsoft.

Lenovo hasn't changed much from IBM

[Enrique1218]

Lenovo hasn't change much deviated much from IBM. There is still a close relationship. My boss got a discount on the new T60 because he owned stock in IBM. Moreover, I believe that there has been no personel change in the Thinkpad division. Everyone is the same from the engineer to the director. Thinkpads has always been very reliable and I don't think that has change yet or will do so in the near future. However, Lenovo have to prove themselves by keeping this reliability before they can think about growing marketshare by driving down prices.

Re:Lenovo hasn't changed much from IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

It not just that there's a close relationship with IBM -- it's the same people. The entire IBM PC division and virtually all of its employees now simply work for Lenovo. Lenovo of course is now looking to cut costs, and one of their recent moves was to lay off a significant part of the ThinkPad support team.

It's all about the name.

[lionchild]

It's really all about the name. The product may have had little to no change, and may be as rock-solid as it ever was. However, the consumer wants to buy a Cadillac when they buy an IBM Thinkpad. This goes to show how important branding is in the marketplace.

If you wanted to buy a Cadillac, and the car you drove felt like one, smelled like one, ran like one, but had the Yugo name on it, wouldn't you be a little shy about investing in that product?

don't blame the fact that they're chinese when...

[Lazy Jones]

... they've completely screwed up the design:

• The Trackpoint is gone
• There are bloody useless "Windows" keys on the new models now, taking up precious space (WTF?), IBM had always refused to add them
• Even the larger models have stupidly small "Return" keys now
• The overall look&feel is that of a cheap Acer laptop, not that of a good old solid and practical ThinkPad...

(I'm referring to this)

Then again, since Toshiba is building laptopos with totally impractical keyboards these days, I don't think ThinkPad users will buy from them ... Look at this view on a widescreen laptop from Toshiba (with german keyboard layout) - ridiculously small space bar, tiny Control-keys, tiny Tab key, so much space wasted. What the f... were they thinking when they designed this? It must be a model for people who only ever use the mouse on the PC ...

IBM/Name Recognition

[vdthemyk]

I know I may be docked for being slightly off point, but I have to ask.

After being on /. for some time now, I've noticed that many people have issues with IBM as a company. Be it a (insert vendor name here) bigot or just someone who happend to not like IBM as a vendor, the majority of the posts I have read show a strong dislike for IBM. I find it interesting the ThinkPad's have (had?) such a strong following and the same people who bash IBM for their servers/software/storage at the enterprise level seem to just love the Laptops and desktops they made. Is this the case in the /. community? Do we only love IBM for their PC business and not for everything else they do?
 

Low end Lenovo's are flimsy crap!

[m33p]

I've always been a *huge* fan of the IBM Thinkpads. They've never been the fastest or prettiest machines, and they are generally some of the most expensive, but the build quality far exceeds anything else out there. Even the "bargain" machines were built rather well. I was excited to see that Lenovo would be selling their machines in local retail stores, so that I could actually get a hands-on for new machines without needing to track one down. But when I saw the machines in the local mega-office-store, they were without a doubt some of the flimsiest laptops I've ever seen. I've heard stories that the higher-end models are still constructed better, but there is no way I would *ever* buy a Lenovo laptop sight-unseen. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one put off on the entire brand based on this... -p.

Re:I don't hang my thinkpad outside the window to

[Anonymous Coward]

"It used to be that I would have to fiddle with the plug a little until the
thinkpad went beep-bap acknowledging it had power, then later on it got worse and I had to put a book beneath the plug so it got proper contact now the jack has come completely lose and has no electrical contact whatsoever anymore."

Why didn't you just have them fix it under warranty? The T41 series is still under warranty, as far as I know. The base warranty is 3 years... we still have T40's that are under warranty.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/pageRed irect.do?lang=en_US&page=pewselect&brand=root&doct ype=&subtype=Cat&up=unknownuser

Will let you look up the warranty status.

However, having serviced hundreds of T-series ThinkPads, the only time I've seen a broken power jack was when the user abused it in some way, although I'm sure that a marginal/bad solder joint would cause the same problem, too.

If I had a T41 with the problem you describe, I'd simply have IBM fix the problem under warranty.

SHOCKER:Lenova not as well known or trusted as IBM

[Kuj0317]

Do you remember the brand trust article that everybody was talking about not two weeks ago? Where did Lenova sit there? for reference: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060330-6491 .html from the site where you order the study (which im not about to do) http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt /0,7211,38694,00.html itemBose, Dell, IBM, Pioneer, Zenith, And Philips Have The Most Brand Potential Where is Lenova? Oh wait, its not there. Ok, so formerly, Thinkpads were being manufactured by a well know, respected, and establised company. Now they're being manufactured by a relatively unknown company. Clearly racism is the driving factor.

Perception and Misconception

[KC7GR]

I think there's a little of both going on. Consider that the 'ThinkPad' name has been a part of IBM for many moons indeed. Suddenly shuffling that name off to Lenovo, a name that I doubt anyone outside of laptop manufacturing circles even knew existed, is bound to cause a bit of a dent.

The 'misconception' in this situation is two-part. First, Lenovo has, to the best of my knowledge, been building ThinkPads for IBM for at least the last decade or so. Assuming my understanding is accurate, anyone who's ever bought a ThinkPad has already bought a Lenovo-built system.

The second part is the idea that quality will be lower on Chinese-manufactured products. While this is certainly true in many cases (think cheap hand tools), I don't see it happening here because, again, Lenovo has been building ThinkPads all along. Why would they risk damaging their own market, and possible collateral damage to IBM's rep, by starting to cut corners?

'Brand loyalty' is a tricky thing. Advertising companies know this, and I think IBM and Lenovo are learning that all over again. The bitter truth of the matter is that the US has sold off an awful lot of its manufacturing base to China, and other foreign investors, most definitely including computer hardware.

I may not like this trend, but I cannot deny that I have taken advantage of it many times. The motherboards I've been using for the past decade or so (Tyan, usually) were all manufactured in Chinese factories.

Another example: The surround receiver I just bought (Harman Kardon AV635) was designed in the US, but actually built in China. Used to be that H-K built ALL their amps, tuners, etc. right here in the US.

In short: How, exactly, does one AVOID Chinese-made electronics? There are darn few US-based electronics manufacturers left, and most of those are in specialty or 'niche' markets.

Even if an electronic product is made entirely in the US, by a US company, take a look inside. Chances are really good that you'll find transistors from Japan, capacitors from Korea or China, and plastic parts from Lord only knows where.

It's (unfortunately) unavoidable. The whole thing reminds me a bit of a Monty Python animation which shows a secretary drowning in a rising wave of Chinese.

The best anyone can do is what should always be done: Carefully evaluate multiple brands against your requirements, and pick the best one for the job.

Keep the peace(es).

Re:Probably nothing to do with China, or even Leno

[wormbin]

Your reasons echo my reasons for ditching the thinkpad.

For years I've been a thinkpad purchaser. I like the solid hardware and the consistent design. (IBM didn't feel the need to change the look every 6 months) IBM sold the laptop division all that brand loyalty evaporated. I don't have a negative opinion of Lenovo but rather I look at them as an unroven company that has yet to earn my trust. This is what makes me look at HP, Toshiba and even Apple when considering a future laptop.

I like my Lenovo Thinkpad T60p

[richtl]

I've had it for a few weeks. While it's not quite as solid as my old A22p, it's probably more robust than anything out there except an Apple.

Has to be a misconception

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM Thinkpads have always been Lenovo machines. They were branded IBM. The machines have not changed, warrenty has not changed, parts have not changed. The only thing different now is no IBM. Heck even most of the high ups in Lenovo are old IBM people.

Lenovo does suck though

[tbb3000]

In all fairness to the people who won't buy Lenovo-made Thinkpads, I have had a couple of friends who've had horrible experience with Lenovo customer service who plan to never buy IBM-made products again as a result. They are nowhere near as professional as many of the other companies re: customer service, they are poorly trained in terms of courtesy and customer satisfaction. For example my friend got a Lenovo-made IBM Thinkpad with a 30-day guarantee: if you don't like it for any reasons, return it within 30 days no questions asked. He didn't like it, so he wanted to exchange for another one and pay the difference if need be. They told him that he was not in the 30 day period because they start counting the 30 days from the time of order/shipping, not the time its received, so he only actually had a 2 1/2 week window. When he protested, they became snide, rude and belligerent toward him. He finally got them to honor the 30-day deal, but they've definitely lost a customer for life, not to mention the bad word of mouth this guy is spreading through his large law firm. Picture a bunch of cases like that and the bad word of mouth could become downright viral.

Spare us your attempts at verbal damage control

[gd23ka]

... and do something about quality. If you had read what I posted then you wouldn't have given me the spiel about me still having warranty. Who are you with, IBM or Lenovo? Can you get my notebook fixed (completely free of charge, of course), if so I'm happy to provide you with an mail address to get in touch with me.

When is a thinkpad not a thinkpad?

[AMindLost]

When it's not an IBM thinkpad. I've been looking for a laptop and have always liked the thinkpads. It's not because of any features, design or styling. There is just something about a thinkpad which makes you think quality. This was almost completely down to the IBM brand and a reputation for that quality. Even though the laptops were made be Lenovo before the sale of the business, both the brand and the reputation have somehow disappeared.

It's the intangibles that make the difference and they cannot be built in or added as an option.

That and Lenovo is unproven

[Sycraft-fu]

Though Dell is far from perfect, you've a pretty good idea what you are getting in to when you get one. They've been around a long time, sold a lot of computers, established their tech support methods, etc. You know what's up. Lenovo is unproven at this point. Maybe they are even better than IBM, better hardware, better support, etc. Who knows though? They are new to the game and they've yet to really prove themselves.

Also it seems to me that they HAVE made some quality cuts. We have a lot of people around here that have Thinkpads, T43s I think, and they are almost religious in their zeal about them and thus recommends them to everyone. I have to say I can see where some of it comes from. Very well constructed machines it seems.

So of course they were recommended to some new people, even though IBM no longer made them. To me, it seems the new ones aren't as well constructed. Maybe it's in way that don't matter, but still. For example the plastic used seems different. The plastic around the keyboard on old IBMs felt like Kydex, very tough stuff. The new laptops, it feels like normal plastic. Also all the parts don't fit quite as well as they used to, I've noticed gaps areound the CDROM and such things.

Now maybe all this is trivial, maybe IBM was wasting money on features and quality checks that aren't useful. However, that quality was what people seemed to like about them. If Lenovo gets rid of that, well then what makes them any different from Dell in the end?

similar experience

[pimpimpim]

Friend of mine bought the R42 (? the basic celeron model) several months ago. It was impossible to burn cd's with it (even just plain data to cd), the standard IBM program to do this just gave some random errors, after turning the cd into toast. Had to spend half a day downloading alternative burning programs, ended up changing a .dll by one I found on the internet. Even nicer is that no backup cd with programs came in the package, so I have to hope that the backup I made after this is a working one. It's such a shame, I liked the idea of having a solid, robust, nothing-fancy notebook that you can rely on.

Re:similar experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I got me an R50 last summer. Have never had a single problem burning CDs or DVDs. Are you sure it's not a hardware problem?

ps. You can get proper media from IBM/Lenovo for your software if you tell them you lost your rapid recovery (or whatever it's called) discs.

2 out of 3 hardware problems

[Anonymous Coward]

Thinkpads have been crap since before IBM sold them off. The company I work for uses them exclusively. On a team of 16 people about 2 out of 3 of us have had hardware problems. Mostly hard drive failures, but also dead fans, memory failures, and graphics failures.

They also have the wonderful security feature that allows the poweron password to be intercepted if you have it set to pass it to the harddrive password (and my employer requires the use of both and advises they be set the same).

The built in wireless can't connect to half of the access points I have tried it with, while a $5 linksys pcmcia card I picked up out of a dusty bin at a flea market works perfectly.

I would never buy a think sad. If I was given one, I would sell it on ebay.

China is the largest manufacturer of High-Tech

[Jamalu]

Even IBM Thinkpads were manufactured in China.

Re:China is the largest manufacturer of High-Tech

[Bassman59]

"Even IBM Thinkpads were manufactured in China."

... by Lenovo, too. -a

Lenova to outsource manfacturing to Middle East

[TakeArms]

Insider info will tell you that Lenova has already been seriously discussing how best to bring down their cost on laptop builds by outsourcing it to somewhere else like India or Pakistan, instead of China... this has been brought up in several IBM internal meetings. Maybe Lenova read a study that the underpaid Middle Eastern kids have smaller fingers then the under-paid Chinese kids, so they can work better with the ever-shrinking laptop circuitry... :)

Which begs the question..

[ModernGeek]

.. I remember in Elementary School, we were taught that all the companies over in China are owned by the government. We were taught that Japan was the best place to have something manufactured. Are people starting to fall into the pit and think that there is actually a true motivation for a Chinese company to innovate, think differently, and try to change the way something is done? The way China is structured, I think following suit and doing whatever you can do to get outside money (more power) into the country is the main idea. China is Americas biggest economic threat, they are huge and awesome, and will continue to dominate the world over and over again. I have a Chinese roommate, and he is annoying (talks on the phone all hours of the night, screaming incomprehensible chinese), so I for one do not welcome our new chinese overlords/manufacturers. The reason that manufacturing costs so much more in the United States is because we strive to enforce humane working environments and standards for our people. Just because China's government forces it's workers to work in inhumane environments so that they can get our dollar doesn't mean we should go to them to manufacture our goods, but I guess I'm fighting a battle that was fought and lost in the 1980's.

Chinese "quality"

[Anonymous Coward]

IME the few made in china products that I've been burned by, qualitity seems to mean if it sort works outof the box, it passes. Also don't expect that chinese product to be around 10y from now as most that I've had once they are working, only last to around 3y tops(most 1y or less electronics, mechanical items, etc. the electronic items failure is surprising as they SHOULD be able to get VERY good quality on those as ICs either tend to fail very soon or last quite some time, usually WAY beyond their specs), and they weren't dirt cheap enough items to justify such a low lifecycle.

Also, this is not only Chinese products, but also those from Singapore, Thailand, Phillipines, etc. The only decent quality Asian products that I've gotten were Japanese(addendum Taiwan is not too bad on quality control excepting for when they engage in ill-considered industrial espionage caps anyone? But even Taiwan isn't up to Japanese or US quality overall, but close enough), so I tend to try to buy the first or second import to USA iteration of Japanese product BEFORE their manufacturing is moved to China or some other 3rd world location.

e.g. Palm IIIx (8M RAM/4M Flash expanded) still looks and work perfectly(8+ y). Made in USA. Casio pocketpc device made in JAPAN working fine(5+ years). Compaq pockepc made in China(dead, ~2y), CD Player(SONY IIRC) made in CHINA dead in less than 1y, etc. All had fairly equivalent usage, which is to say virtually daily, along with charging cycle where applicable and batt replacements when necessary. RCA TVs ($150 -$200 19 -21") dead in ~2y, etc. this list could go on ad-nauseum.

Non-electronics various non-cheap $100/chair etc. failed welds in under 2y of moderate to light summer usage, stored indoors winter, various other chinese/non-Japanese asian products failing of similar basic causes in the same time period or less. (Compared to patio furnited that is around 40+y, made in USA other than minor painting reneeded every so often still in perfect shape...dated styling if you care for that though... to me they're chairs.)

These countrie just don't comprehend quality control, or are incapable of producing equivalent quality when going beyond basic original designs, but come on, welds failing?! Cast parts cracking?! If life expectancy is 2y then all of this is fine, but for me, I like my stuff to last and at least be usable as utility items for MANY years to come, esp. when they're not really that much cheaper and many more complex items having problems right out of the box.

European products: hmmm... never really owned any European produced products myself, but at least European automobiles seem to hold up decently at least as far as people I've known owning Volkswagens and BMWs... I've had bad experiences with Philips products though, however I don't recall if they were made in Europe or Asia, but I suspect Asia...

Maybe

[robpoe]

Lenovo started spamming us with quotes for systems. When we responded to their spam with "We didn't request this from you", they responded with "But we're the greatest!!!". We replied and said "Well, those machines don't even meet our minimum specifications." and they replied back "Well, you're just stupid for not providing us with that information in the first place."

Stupid?

Really?

How about this: F*** off and don't call us .. ever.

Windows Key

[magerquark.de]

I hate IBM/Lenovo for not providing a Windows key!

Does apple have accidental damage protection?

[ModernGeek]

I know at the local WorstBuy, you can get accidental damage protection for a laptop, so even if you crack your LCD, they will replace it as long as you get the Performance Service Plan. I've seen construction workers buy flimsy HP laptops (by the way, why are there people on here saying they like those? Yuck), and within a week or so, they will come back with a cracked LCD. They bring it into the store, we ship it off, and it comes back fixed in ~2-3 weeks. If apple had an accidental damage option for AppleCare, I bet it would help bunches in this arena. It would also mean that apple is confident in their hardware.

Re:Does apple have accidental damage protection?

[planetmn]

Except that a warranty doesn't help when you need your laptop. I'm not even talking need as in life or death, but need as in land a multi-million dollar account. You don't want to show up to a meeting at a potential client, only to find out that when you dropped your briefcase while picking up your suitcase from the baggage carousel that you no longer have your presentation or demo system available.

I ran into this mentality when I did some hiking in mountains. Sure, lots of equipment brands had warranties that would cover the problems encountered, only that won't help me when I am three days from civilization. Sometimes it just has to work.

In terms of an accidental damage option. It's insurance/warranty, which means it has nothing to do with confidence in your hardware, but it's a financial calculation. $X from each sale is earmarked for support. The average cost of support on the unit is $Y/year. The number of years of warranty is X/Y. Cruder than reality, but close enough.

-dave

My 2 cents.

[Puchku]

I bought a T-43 last july. This was just after the Lenovo takeover. This is my first laptop, and I earned every penny for it ( college student, work ..), so I did extensive research before I spent my cash. I must have read over 50 reviews, browsed all the forums, went to the shops, friends laptop, etc etc. And I finally bought a T43. Over the past 10 months, I have used my Thinkpad like a typical college guy. It's been lugged around in a cheap samsonite backpack, subjected to juddering road trips, travelled all the place with me, you know the drill. It still looks, and feels, new. The only thing is the pentium M sticker has worn off. I love this laptop, and the HP's and Acer's that my friends bought around the same time are all looking tacky. I love my laptop, and I will buy another T series after this one is shot, unless there's something fantastic out there. I haven't had any problems with this ( knock on wood), so I can't comment about the support. Owning a T series Thinkpad just makes me feel good in some way. Whether it's the sexy keyboard, or the sturdy feel, or the classic black lines, I'm a fan. I don't think Lenovo has screwed the T series up yet, and I pray fervently they never do.. I for one will be saddened the day I see a T series with a blue LED under the power button. That said, the T series could use a few improvements.. No Firewire??? What's with that, the cheap ass R series has it. And a multi card reader would be nice too, as long as it didn;t ruin the feel of the case. I hope Lenovo improves the T series by adding valuable features, not just bling.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[isorox]

Take the MacBookPro. Pick it up in one hand along an edge. If you can't see the entire damn case flexing, I'll eat my UPS.

My R40e flexes when I pick it up in the corner. The keyboard doesn't work either. The Escape key and middle mouse button have broken beyond repair, replacement keyboards are big bucks, I'm on the lookout for a broken chasais. Keyboard flimsy compared with my 380ED too. That machine is a brick, solid as a rock, although not exactly light.

That said, we send thinkpads (t31/32/40 etc) out to Afghanistan and Iraq, but we have more problems with dells that are based in an office in London.

I'm not too happy with my r40e (ACPI doesnt work properly, for example, overheats etc), but that's comparing it to an older thinkpad. Compared to a modern "other" laptop and there's no competition.

Besides, I like nipples (I think I'm the only one in the world), and until anyone else produces a laptop with them, I'll stick with Thinkpads.

Zena's phobia

[javamann]

Fear of women in leather with swords?

Duh. No one get's fired for buying IBM gear.

[WoTG]

No one gets fired for buying IBM gear. However, you can get fired for buying Lenovo. Who wants to be the guy who has to explain to higher-ups that "really it's the same quality as IBM" when something goes wrong? Brand name matters. Do Hyundais sell as easily as Hondas or Fords?

Besides that, in theory you can kick up a fuss and threaten to sue IBM and you'll know that IBM has the funds to make things right in order to protect their brand. Lenovo has no brand equity to speak of in North America. Do they really care if you spam 100 blogs and forums with negative comments about your defective laptop? Who knows. It's certainly not guaranteed.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Stu Charlton]

Sorry, I really have to disagree with this.

I've been through a lot of laptops: Thinkpads in the mid through late 1990s, Dell Insipiron 8000 and 9000 series, Dell Latitude D600 and D800, Acers, Powerbook G3, Powerbook G4 titanium and aluminum, and now the MacBook Pro.

Out of all of these, the most durable and problem-free was the 17-inch Powerbook G4 alumnum 1.33 ghz. It still looks great 2.5 years after I purchased it after _heavy_ airline travel, use, and abuse, in many locations, grabbing it via one hand, etc. I've had to replace the power adapter once because it began to split at the end, due to repeated yanking / bending -- that's all. The actual laptop case does not scratch or bend anywhere near as much as the plastic cases of the other laptops. The Titanium G4, FWIW, was rather flimsy and had paint that scratched easily.

Other than the processor whine, which I don't usually hear, the MacBook Pro has the same durable feel and construction of my AlBook G4, and I'm looking forward to many a year with it.

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Stu Charlton]

As I've posted below, I disagree with this. I've owned a Thinkpad T60 and various other Thinkpads over the years, along with Dells, Acers, and several Powerbooks. The aluminum Powerbook 17-inch G4 was the best of them all for durability, maintainable looks, and performance. Every one of these wound up requiring repairs after 2 years of sustained use and travel, but the Powerbook is still chugging along quite well with few noticable scratches, and no notable problems (other than the G4 1.33 getting a bit long in the tooth).

Take the MacBookPro. Pick it up in one hand along an edge. If you can't see the entire damn case flexing, I'll eat my UPS.

Get off your bloody high horse. I'm holding the one I just purchased last week by an edge right now..... Hmm. seems fine to me. (as was the AlBook).

Look, I guess if you like to play laptop frisbee and work in a ditch all day, I can see the desire for ruggedized plastic. But frankly the annodized alumnium has been the best durability/looks combo of a laptop that I've experienced. And I have plenty of data points to compare it to.

I have a lot of Thinkpad-fan friends and their major reason for liking it is the nipple vs. trackpad debate, which frankly seems like a religious issue that will never go away... I admit I've had some shitty trackpads but the Powerbook/Macbooks are quite nice (the Acer's Synaptics pad was the nicest IMHO, but sadly that was 4+ years ago )....

Can someone explain this?

[DaveCBio]

Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command.

What the hell does that mean? How would you expect to gain mindshare if you have poor performance to start with? It baffles me when I see statements like this coming from people that consider themselves writers.

The Downward Spiral

[nido]

As with every other product in the Wal-Mart generation, the primary consideration is the initial purchase price: very little else seems to matter with the majority of the the purchasing public.

It's not that people don't care about quality, but due to the Mal*Wart effect (wages adjusted for inflation have been declining since the 70's), people can't afford the quality they used to. Wal*Mart pays their employees such that they can only afford to shop at Mal*Wart.

The unstated goal of "Free Trade" has been to increase the country's wealth disparity - the rich get much much richer, while most the rest of us get just a little bit poorer. Who benefits from Intel shifting their motherboard assembly plant from Palo Alto to China, or Maytag moving an assembly plant to Mexico? Certainly not the Americans who used to put the motherboards or washing machines together. Intel benefits, but only because they can stay competitive with their competitor who went to China first. I'm not trying to be an anti-corporate bigot or anything, as I see it the leaders of Intel and Maytag and most the others are just taking the rational steps necessary for their survival in a poisonous economic landscape.

It's not Xenophobia. If they want to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps that's fine. But at the present we have AMERICAN/Western companies going in and setting up operations in China specifically because it's "low cost". Which is bullshit. Like I said in the comment linked below, the free market naturally levels the playing field. No one job in an economy is more important than any other job. But we seem to have forgotten, or lost sight of the fact, that "all men/women are created equal" (not that they are equal, but have the same basic potential).

The problem is INFLATION, and how regular Americans have been getting squeezed since at least the 70's, perhaps much longer.

See 1970's, redux, my comment from last August.

Re:The Downward Spiral

[debest]

You're not wrong about the inflation issue (buying power slowly getting lower), but that still doesn't fully excuse the fact that very few people care about long-term value (durability, service quality) anymore: they will always give their money to the one who gives them the cheapest up-front deal. It doesn't seem to matter if you show them that their "Total Cost of Ownership" (including the intangibles like non-painful customer care) is usually lower when a better product is purchased from a better business. It is so chronic that a business cannot succeed beyond a certain size with the intent of providing higher-end services at fair prices, particularly in highly commoditized markets (such as electronics).

Re:The Downward Spiral

[Grishnakh]

The unstated goal of "Free Trade" has been to increase the country's wealth disparity - the rich get much much richer, while most the rest of us get just a little bit poorer. Who benefits from Intel shifting their motherboard assembly plant from Palo Alto to China, or Maytag moving an assembly plant to Mexico? Certainly not the Americans who used to put the motherboards or washing machines together.

No, no, you don't understand at all. The Americans who used to work at factories making motherboards or other high-tech equipment have now been freed from their dull jobs, so they can pursue something more interesting and fulfilling! So Bob, who used to inspect Maytag washers before shipment, and Jim, who used to install components in washers, can now go to work as a market research analyst or some type of manager! Right? Oh wait...

Re:The Downward Spiral

[nido]

they will always give their money to the one who gives them the cheapest up-front deal.

I bought a book last fall ... the title escapes me, but it was on helping independant businesses survive & thrive when competing with megastores. His point was that the only thing Mal*Wart has going for it is price. Their staff don't really care about their jobs, so when a customer goes in, they have to know exactly what they want because the staff is just there to restock the shelves. Which is why they have a liberal return policy - so that you can take an item back when you realize that it's the wrong thing.

People by crap because they don't have a salesman to let them know what the advantages are to going with a superior product. Wal*Mart is incapable of competing with a good specialist.

Ah yes, "The Good News About Reatailing" series, and the book I bought was Thriving in the Shadow of Giants.

See also Snapper pulls their line of high-end lawnmowers from Wal-Mart for another example. When someone goes to "Wal*Mart" for a lawnmower, all they see is a line of mowers from $90 to $190. They probably don't know much about mowers, so yes, they'd be inclined to go for the cheapest one. But if you went to a Snapper retailer, the salesman would inquire as to your needs - postage stamp or footballl field? how often do you cut it? etc, etc. They'll tell you that you can go for their cheapest model, but to expect to be fixing it every 3-4 seasons. That they have a Snapper that they've been using for 20 years, and these are all the features that make Snapper worth the premium.

Real data about Chinese Gov. ownership of Lenovo

[Kevin143]

Lenovo is partly owned by the government. Lenovo was founded as a branch of from a government think tank and as a result, the Chinese government owns about 10% of Lenovo through the Chinese National Academy of the Sciences.

Native serial ports are back as an option.

[sethstorm]

The T60's do have a bay option for legacy ports such as serial that work natively. The only downside is that they will not work with T40/41/42/43 series.

It being Chinese matters

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose ThinkPads lost their lustre for me when I think about Chinese "partner" companies owning 51 per cent of any mandatory joint venture. Perhaps the Chinese currency should actually float so that it would reflect the overwhelming numbers of products that they export. Perhaps it is due to personal experience trying to sell a very real, actively selling product in Asia and Europe and watching the Chinese market not buy it as it was "foreign" (a direct quote from a Ministry member we had to talk to...). Can my feeling be classified as xenophobic, racist, ? Yes. It's my money and I'll spend it as my perception dictates. The hardware is no doubt fine, but premium margins often command something other than simply the material transacted.

Patriotism

[octopus72]

Lenovo doesn't sell because people who used to buy thinkpads were US patriots?

Otherwise Lenovo should upgrade to better designed case, Thinkpads look dated.

Not seen much difference

[gone.fishing]

Working with Pre and Post IBM ThinkPads everyday, I don't think that I have noticed a great deal of difference in quality or performance since Lenovo took over. Frankly, it never occured to me to look.

One thing I am sure of though, their hard drives crash just as bad now as before!

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

No, you're not the only one who likes the TrackPoint. I prefer it to touchpads any day.

Thinkpads & Linux

[eklitzke]

I recently (December) purchased a Thinkpad X40. The number one reason I chose to do so is the fact that 100% of the components in it were supported by Linux. There aren't any mysterious, undocumented revisions with different components. Everything -- and I mean everything -- works perfectly with my laptop, which is saying a lot. As far as I can tell, the same holds with all of the other laptops in the Thinkpad line, with the exception that some of the laptops have ATI video cards that require proprietary drivers to get full acceleration. This holds for the laptops released after the Thinkpad line was purchased by Lenovo as well.

Re:Thinkpads & Linux

[Jim Hall]

I recently (December) purchased a Thinkpad X40. The number one reason I chose to do so is the fact that 100% of the components in it were supported by Linux. There aren't any mysterious, undocumented revisions with different components. Everything -- and I mean everything -- works perfectly with my laptop, which is saying a lot. As far as I can tell, the same holds with all of the other laptops in the Thinkpad line, with the exception that some of the laptops have ATI video cards that require proprietary drivers to get full acceleration. This holds for the laptops released after the Thinkpad line was purchased by Lenovo as well.

Recently (March 2006) my wife decided it was time to upgrade her laptop. She was unsure what kind of system to get, but eventually decided she'd rather have another ThinkPad. We retired her very old A21e, and purchased a new ThinkPad T43. And yes, she asked me to put Linux on it. Of course, we looked at the different T43 models, and checked that the system we were buying had support under Linux. We chose Intel GMA 900 graphics, and the integrated Intel PRO/Wireless 2200BG network adapter. It runs great with Fedora Core 5, right "out of the box".

Didn't establish brand.

[theendlessnow]

Has nothing to do with technology or support pro/con from IBM... Lenovo's biggest mistake was failing to establish their brand. They waited way too long to come out with Lenovo branded items instead of resting on the old IBM/ThinkPad names.

People have difficulty understanding why their IBM ThinkPad is made by a company other than IBM. Sounds fishy. Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Failing to establish their brand earlier is the mistake IMHO.

If it had been the name of a lesser brand... might of worked... but people will naturally want an IBM branded product to come from IBM.

Corporate Accountability???

[TitsNbeer]

Wait...Corporations are accountable now.

When'd that happen?

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[iotaborg]

Well, duh, the MBP flexes, aluminum isn't the stiffist material in the world. Sure you can make your laptop case out of ceramic or some stiff material; but ductile materials provide more shock absorption. The fact that it flexes has little to do with its build quality.

It's not just perception

[Anonymous Coward]

"a country with a long standing perception of high quality engineering"

I've taken big chunks of my 3 series apart and the electrical connectors are designed better than my entire Honda. When you pull electrical parts apart, there's actually enough slack to make make repair work a pleasure.

I'm left with the feeling on my 3 series that given a small collection of hand tools, I could strip the entire car down to nuts and bolts in about 8 hours. And each part is beautifully engineered. This sounds corny, but I've actually stood in awe of the car and the engineers when I take it apart. The thing is just friggin' beautiful and it's done in such a way that most people think its just like a lexus, only german. They have no clue of the engineering in their BMW. Sad really. Most people see the bling. When I see a BMW I really see a precision machine designed by people with the same mindset as me.

it is not the fact that ThinkPad is mftg in China

[porky_pig_jr]

but that Lenovo is Chinese company with some connections to Chinese govenment. I remember reading the news story that Lenovo tried to blackmail the state they had manufacturing plant. They have asked the state govenment to implement some courses that favorably view the current Chinese social/political system, or something like that. Would you want to deal with the company that forces you to carry little red book together with your laptop. I remember after reading that news story I've decided not to touch ThinkPad ever in my life. (I did have T23 at some point.)

Trackpoint & keyboard

[billh]

Did anyone else notice that it is hard to find a decent set of inputs on laptops these days? The Thinkpads have a trackpoint and a good keyboard. Most other laptops don't. I'd buy a Mac tomorrow if I could type and mouse at full speed.

Hint to hardware folks - Those of use with big fingers find a pad to be a waste of time. An external mouse does not fix the underlying issue. Shitty keyboards don't help, either.

Obviousness.

[C10H14N2]

Until IBM started dual-branding them--and then recently with them being completely rebranded--I doubt many knew whether they were coming from China, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea or wherever. Now knowing precisely where they are coming from, and more importantly, where _all_ of the money is now going, purchasing behavior is different and the reasons for that are far more complicated than just "don't like foreigners."

Buying sony laptops and computers is just dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

They look pretty. But underneath this, here's what you get:

1) Desktop machines for $2500 that have non-upgradable graphics cards. And this is in a "video workstation". No I didn't buy one of these. Plenty of my friends and neighbors did though. It's usually worth throwing them out, but they paid so much for them that they don't feel like they can. They would have been better off with one of those $600 dell units.

2) On any of their machines, they require special sony drivers for sound/video/whatever. The driver will never be upgraded, no matter what. If the machine shipped with XP SP1 and SP2 comes out and it breaks something? Sony will just not upgrade it. They feel its time to buy a new computer.

3) God help you if a proprietary part breaks (such as the screen on a laptop). That part will cost you more than the entire machine and sony has no hesitation screwing you.

And after all that, the use obsolete Intel chipsets. Gotta keep those profits up.

There is not a good reason to buy a sony computer and lots of good reasons not to.

Buyer beware.

Don't like the windows key?

[jumpfroggy]

I'm just curious, I've seen the anti-windows key sentiment a few times now in these comments. You really think it has no use? I'm just surprised because I've found it incredibly useful. I do use windows, and the extra commands (explorer, find, run, system properties) come in handy. But the biggest use I find for it is as a shortcut key. It's a blank key with relatively few bindings (since it's technically optional) that you can bind to your heart's content. Every program I use day-to-day is bound to a windows+[key] combo, and it's incredibly convenient. I could use the typical Control+Alt+[key], but there's a lot of conflicts with that and other programs. Then there's Control+Alt+Shift+[key], still some conflicts and now a lot less convenient. But the windows key is a wide open field.

For those that don't like the win key, is it because you don't use it this way? Or would you still hate it even if you used it as a bind key?

Re:Don't like the windows key?

[magetoo]

But the biggest use I find for it is as a shortcut key. It's a blank key with relatively few bindings (since it's technically optional) that you can bind to your heart's content. Every program I use day-to-day is bound to a windows+[key] combo, and it's incredibly convenient. I could use the typical Control+Alt+[key], but there's a lot of conflicts with that and other programs. Then there's Control+Alt+Shift+[key], still some conflicts and now a lot less convenient. But the windows key is a wide open field.

It's wide open only until people start using it, and a de-facto or operating system standard starts setting out what you can use it for. Typewriters didn't have all the junk that a modern keyboard has. So why all these Alt/Ctrl/AltGr/NumLock/SysRq etc keys? Because at some point in time we needed (or, "needed") them to do some specific task, and no other key was available.

That being said, the Windows keys are probably less likely to be "used up" in the same way, especially if it becomes a standard having them as app launchers.

For those that don't like the win key, is it because you don't use it this way? Or would you still hate it even if you used it as a bind key?

It's emotional. All old DOS gamers remembers accidentally hitting the Windows key and ending up looking at the Windows 95 desktop instead of firing, and losing mental focus in the process. :-)

And the rest of us don't like the keys because they clutter the spacebar row and make it asymmetrical.

Re:Don't like the windows key?

[jumpfroggy]

Ahh, that makes sense. I totally remember those 4 or so times I've been killed due to accidental winkey press (hated it everytime), and I do remember when the winkey first came out I hated it. A windows specific key on the keyboard, like a slap in the face. It's almost as ridiculous as, say, an IBM or Dell specific key.

Except that I learned to like it because I feel like it will never be used up like the others are. The windows key is never guaranteed to be there, so programs can't rely on it (in fact, I've never seen a program with a default binding on the windows key... can't think of any), so it's all mine!

I almost wish we had more. It'd be great to have less crazy keys (print screen, sys rq, scroll lock) and have more modifiers (shift, alt, control, win, blue, triangle). Just think what you could map with all those extras, I could control every program and have enough bindings for everything! Actually, I do wish I could have one more modifier.

Re:Don't like the windows key?

[magetoo]

I completely agree on wanting to have more modifier keys. At least the first part, less "crazy keys" seems to become more common, with some newer keyboards losing PrintSc/SysRq, ScrollLk, Pause/Break.

But if you want to get rid of some keys and have some new ones too, you could look into remapping those you don't want to doing something useful. It's certainly possible on Unix-like operating systems, and I'd imagine there's Windows software to do all sorts of weird things too. Sure, using Scroll Lock as a shift/modifier key would be awkward, but I suppose you could remap "the third Windows key", and place it in some unused corner instead. Or something. Num Lock is something you could probably get rid of too - when did you last use the keypad for cursor movement? About the only key you can't remap is Print Screen/SysRq, I believe.

I've been thinking about this a bit. :-)

Of course, I want something a bit more like this: Emulator 122. (Which also brings us back to the topic of IBM, and indestructible hardware.)

Re:Don't like the windows key?

[toddestan]

I dislike the Windows key mostly for the reason that by adding it, the key reduces the size the CTRL/ALT keys and the spacebar. It is located in a place that makes it very to accidently press, and the result of that is the focus is now shifted to the start menu. Any Windows gamer can tell you that this is extremely annoying, and I many many gamers who have either seeked out keyboards without the Windows key (the Model M is pretty popular here), installed some software utility to disable the key, or simply took a screwdriver and pried the damn thing off.

Like others have mentioned, the Windows key is handy at times for the shortcuts. I rather like the approach a Toshiba laptop I have took - they placed the Windows key on the top right of the keyboard so it's not in the way, but still usable for the shortcuts (true, this makes most shortcuts a two handed operation, but on a laptop this really isn't an issue for me). That almost makes up for the fact that they eliminated the right CRTL key. On my desktop, I just live without (I use a Model M).

By the way, what's the with the other Microsoft key - the "right click" one that's usually between the right Windows key and the right CRTL key? That's a useless key if I've ever seen one.

Re:Don't like the windows key?

[gauauu]

By the way, what's the with the other Microsoft key - the "right click" one that's usually between the right Windows key and the right CRTL key? That's a useless key if I've ever seen one.

Whatever. I use that key ALL THE TIME. I take it you enjoy being chained to your mouse?

They need to prove themselves

[Nikker]

Common do you really think you could take over a company and all of the previous owners clients will be magically kissing *your* ass.

It's like going for computer help to the guy down the street after your longtime buddy moves out, you will approach with caution. I think IBM has prepared Lenovo for this and don't think they will give up now.

They have the task of not only proving they are just as good but better, tech support, quality, benchmarks, tech review mags/sites. This may take a while but if they come in strong and have equipment that can challenge PowerBooks, et al then the company will do very well in the next lets say 5 years.

I don't see why evrey one here is up in arms that because a multimillion dollar company changed hands and we are not knocking down the new guys door in droves. Like you don't expect people to have a little reserve especially since in the west we never really had a direct interaction with the east. Most of our products are assembled and made in Asia but how many have ever approached that same company with questions and requests? Sure people are weary but it is up to Lenovo to overcome that, if they do I think it will give the west an insight into their culture and will help China to lose some of the stigma that has affected the country overall maybe even open the door for other companies getting into the west.

Maybe this is a blessing?

Speaking of Keyboards...

[CommanderData]

I hate the fact that since Lenovo took over the Thinkpad line they have modified the keyboard to include those infernal "Windows" keys. They reduce the size of Ctrl, Alt, and the Spacebar, and are worthless if you don't run Windows on it! I actually looked into the new design on the X60 to see if I could yank the keyboard out and replace it with one from my X24 or X30, but they changed the connector design!!!

No thanks, I'll just keep using my old Thinkpads...

Re:You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

Well, where you perceive "shock absorbent", I perceive "flimsy".

Fascinating

[sgt scrub]

I just went through the process of getting a new laptop. I didn't go with a thinkpad because they didn't have a model with:
1) a 15" screen
2) a Turion MT-40
3) a nVidia 6800 ultra
So, I guess he is on to something.

btw. I think United Micro didn't believe I would notice they sent me an ML-40 instead of the MT-40.

Take a look at the product

[Zebra_X]

The reason for the defections has less to do with support and more to do with the direction the product line is going. Take a look at the new lenovo pc's feature list (towards the bottom of the page). They are 2x the size of the current think pads. They are not nearly as well constructed. Also, many of the "entry level" models don't support the same features that come standard with the existing think pad line. Have a look at the current think pad feature list (bottom) .

The difference between the old product (the real IBM product) and the new product is obvious. I think it will be some time before the lenovo product attains the level of workmaship that IBM was capabale of, and that I think is the reason for customer defection.

The real fear is really, how long before the old think pad models are

My experience with Lenovo

[spectasaurus]

Recently I tried to purchase a new laptop for my work. I was forced to purchase a Lenovo model by our IT department. The machine they allowed me to purchase contains a 40 GB hard-drive, 512 MB and 1.6 GHz processor. Good specs ... if it was 2003. This machine cost $1,400. As well, three weeks ago, they told me if would take 5 days for delivery. It was not arrived yet. Poor service and non-competitive systems is why people are not purchasing Lenovo.

Branding problem: People can't even spell "Lenovo"

[magetoo]

I took the time to pick out some misspellings in the comments. Here's my findings:

"There are two major pc builders in China. Lenevo and ..."
"The experience of getting my Lenevo ThinkPad was actually much lamer, ..."
"As I said, I've got a Levano and not an IBM version."
"... This was before Leveno entered the picture."
"If someone checked out an HP and a Lonovo and liked the HP that's cool, ..."
"The Levano models come out, they're supposedly the same. ..."
"Lonovo: Get your act straight or ..."
"We moved from Dell Laptops to Lenova... (Score:1)"
"SHOCKER:Lenova not as well known or trusted as IBM (Score:1)"

Counts:
Lenevo: 1 (same poster twice)
Leveno: 1
Lonovo: 2
Lenova: 2
Levano: 3
Lenovo: Lots.

Lenovo clearly needs to work on its brand. For comparison, I did not once see someone misspell "IBM".

Lenovo

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a company that has strictly purchased IBM servers and desktops for years. We've been on a 3 year cycle for hardware replacement, and have recently begun receiving samples from Lenovo in anticipation of our next refresh. I've spent a bit of time playing with them, especially the T60 laptop, and I must say, they are not nearly as well made as the IBM machines used to be. It seems far less sturdy and the parts don't fit together well. We have serious reservations about the durability of these machines, and have started looking at HP as a new supplier.

Timely switch

[copelandia]

I received my t60 today, after riding a powerbook into the ground. It's a better piece of hardware.

Re:misconception, or DOD Deception?

[davidsyes]

Maybe the various US trade agencies and the DOD propaganda unit are sparring with China over recent trade deficits and some cracking and intrusions that seem to point back to Chinese intel facilities?

If the US is taking masked retribution for the deficite and ms is wining about windoze and naked PCs and Linux and open source, then both are either together or independently ganging up on China and Linux for their own mutual benefit.

Yeh, Lenovo came from IBM, but since IBM's NAME is not on it, how do we know the people saying, "Who wants to buy anthing from China" are either stupid or part of government disinformation. Like others have pointed out, even DELL and Toshiba and Fujitsu and others have much of their hardware coming FROM China or passing through Chinese hands or operations in Mexico, Malaysia, Taiwan, The Philippines, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Thailand and at least 5 OTHER places hardware is assembled or tested...

Sheesh, "Who wants to buy anything from China" is a lame excuse when applied in general. Not EVERYthing coming from China is cheap or shoddy or 2nd rate. Some stuff? Yeah. A LOT, probably. EVERYthing? No.

Hmmm, image word: "greedy"

My experience

[FredFnord]

We switched to Lenovos last year.

The machines are fine, although the ultra-light notebooks use the same kind of hard drives that iPods do, which means they are ridiculously slow compared to a rational computer. And of course they don't tell you that before you buy them. However, if you stuff a gig and a half of RAM into them they're acceptable, as ultra-light notebooks go.

Our problem with them is that their supply line sucks. Our orders have been filled in two weeks, occasionally, but most often it takes a month and sometimes three. If they weren't the only company that offers a couple of features that we need, we'd have dumped them like a hot potato after the first order. As it is, we just suck it up. But I must say, compared to Dells and HPs, we've had very few problems with the ones that have been delivered. In fact, we've had one hard drive failure and no DOAs, out of the thirty or so machines we've had for the last six months. Compared to our experiences with Dell or my experiences with HP in my last job, that's almost laughably negligible.

-fred

IBM to HP

[DigiRaven]

Longtime IBM notebook buyer for my company but the idea that they are now made by walmart country I've switched to HP. Matter of the fact the new HP/Compaq business models are awesome. I've always stayed away from HP but lately their products are a step up above the rest. The quality is very good. I'm now a dedicated HP buyer. Bought 15 nw8240s and 2 nx9240s models from HP. Everyone at my company wants one. To bad IBM sold out.

I've got a reason

[nitefly]

I'd rather not buy a computer that has Trusted Computing support built into it.

Not A Misconception

[Goo.cc]

I was going to buy a Thinkpad before the announcement. Now, I will be spending my money elsewhere.

No longer "leadership design"

[Richard_J_N]

When I first bought a thinkpad (the 560) in 1997, it was the best machine on the market. The attention to detail was stunning (better than Apple). It was clear that the ThinkPads were the best, and everyone knew it. I've had 3 more since then - and they have all been excellent machines - and the A22p (which I bought 5 years ago) has a better keyboard/mouse/display than any laptop I have ever seen since!

BUT...I feel that IBM/Lenovo is going downmarket - and I wish they wouldn't. They seem to have lost confidence in their own designs, and are competing more on price, and less on quality. Examples of lost confidence include the addition of a Windows Key (making the fabulous keyboard slightly less expert-friendly), re-arranging the mouse buttons from 2+1 to 3 in a row (to accommodate a touchpad [it takes about an hour to learn to love a trackpoint, after which you'd never go back]), and the replacement of the velvet-black finish by the tougher, but less comfortable ABS. Also, IBM's Linux support seems to be wavering - the newer thinkpads don't have any Free 3D drivers, and there have been a few more hardware issues of late.

Please, Leneovo, put the price *up* by 20% and give us something special.

follow the money....

[twasserman]

The issue is not where the laptops are made, since they are all made in Asia, but rather where the money ends up. When you buy a Lenovo ThinkPad, some of the money goes to pay their employees, some of whom are in the US. However, all of the profits end up with Lenovo, which is owned by the Chinese government. As far as I am concerned, the less money that I send to the People's Republic of China, the better. Apart from their lack of respect for intellectual property, their limitations on personal freedoms, their high rate of capital punishment, and their crackdowns on Tibet and Falun Gong, the Chinese government uses some of those profits to fund a military buildup. It won't be too many years before we see the first Chinese aircraft carrier, which they may call Lenovo. By contrast, when you buy a machine with an Apple, HP, or Dell label, lots of your money goes overseas, but the profits end up in the US, where the company pays both federal and local taxes. Does the Lenovo ThinkPad have some unique feature available nowhere else? If so, then there is a good reason to buy one; if not, it's just a commodity.

We could have much the same discussion about automobiles. There are lots of good reasons and feature differences to justify buying a car from someone other than the two remaining American manufacturers. (Chrysler is owned by a German company.) As with computers, many of the parts (as well as the steel) that goes into the "American" cars are made outside the US by foreign companies. Also, when you buy a "foreign" car, the brand may be owned by an American company (Saab, Volvo). The notion of "Buy American" again reflects the notion that GM and Ford pay taxes in the US when they are profitable.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Severe Lack of Corporate Governance

[brettbum]

I'd love to chime in here with some great examples, however, I've received a lot of death threats from a Chinese ODM company. (Not Lenovo) Its been my experience that some (hopefully not all) Chinese ODM's operate in a realm of purest marketplace capitalism with no oversight or controls. As such they are pretty much free to do what they want. In America we have the perspective that we can appeal to their greed. Ergo, if we give them enough incentive with profits and opportunity they will take the right steps, follow the right procedures, obey the laws etc. I've learned first hand, that this is not always the case. Sometimes the ODM has the capability to sell the products on the black market (not legally, they just don't care). So if they have an outlet for their goods, you cannot appeal to their greed. They'd rather take all the shortcuts in the world to make a fast buck, plus a little bribery on the side, than do things right so that they can make five bucks down the road. Its basically a slash and burn type of methodology. Lenovo may or may not be in this category, however, too many people that were not xenophobic have gotten a taste for this type of mis-behavior. At the end of the day as a corporate executive, you rely on your computer. Would you trust a company known for avoiding shortcuts, or one without a track record? I've got a T40 that's got some quirks (mostly due to a crappy image that my IT team supports) but all in all its one of the best computers I've had. Its about 2 years old. I've had terrible experiences with Dell's and average to poor experiences with HP's. I'm not going to gamble on a Lenovo until they have proved out their ability to deliver.

Fujitsu Siemens?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fujitsu-Siemens currently sells one of the best high-end laptop with the Intel Core Duo processors that is available on the market. You can get it with a 1920 x 1200 15 inch screen and with two (!) harddisks and two (!) batteries.

That machine definitely beats the "almost hot" Thinkpads, HPs, Apple Laptops or Dells.

The money leads to a loophole of no return.

[edgedmurasame]

The notion of "Buy American" again reflects the notion that GM and Ford pay taxes in the US when they are profitable.


That's why Delphi and GM get away with not having to include foreign assets in any bankruptcy. That's how you can drive a company to the ground, fire as many domestics as you want and be able to use what's left to break any contracts between you and a "free-exploitation" run company. That applies even to the computer industry, especially to R^HLenovo/IBM. Besides, when was the last machine made that had parts from countries with strong labor protections, strict immigration enforcement, and/or laws that disfavored this kind of loophole?

Forgot one.

[edgedmurasame]

Renovo. Yes, it's an incorrect aim at China that would apply more 20 years ago and to a Japanese company, but some dont let that get in the way.