Slashdot Mirror
EOE Concerns w/ Electronic-only Job Application?
Khyber asks: "Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today, and even harder to obtain due to the increased proliferation of on-line-only or electronic-only job applications. I know this firsthand - as today I attempted to apply for a job at Kroger's, only to discover that I had to fill out one of these electronic applications in their 'Career Opportunities Kiosk.' The machine miserably failed to get past the second page of the multi-paged the application. I've asked the manager if there was a paper application to fill out (why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves?) and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal. Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?"
"Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware, and the refusal by the manager to give me a paper application to fill out, as an alternative. Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well? Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper as opposed to digitally?"
With all the regs out there now about privacy (Sarbanes, etc.) I'm betting that is what this is about, in addition to most companies using HR systems to do their work. Paper apps would take time to enter, and that costs money.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
I kind of doubt there is much your going to be able to find. As long as the application is available in one way or another to those with disabilites, then there's likely nothing you can do. I can understand the frustration, seems silly that the manager wasn't more concerned that their only way of collecting applicants was not working. Guess new hirings are not high on the list.
the broken machine _was_ the test. the applicant they were looking for would be the one that would fix it themselves. /least thats how I would do it //cause i'm malicious like that
discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job
Um . . . I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't discriminate based on education level.
Let's see, you're asking for legal advice on Slashdot and the reason you need the advice is that you don't know how to use a computer? You're about 19 days too late.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
"Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well?"
"Equal opportunity employer" means they do not discriminate on the basis of legally protected traits (such as those protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - race, color, religion, sex, or national origin). Education (or lack there) is *NOT* a protected characteristic. They are perfectly free to say that people who have below a certain level of education need not apply. (And the reverse is also true - I remember hearing about a police department in New Hamshipre that would not take applicants with above a 105 IQ, citing the high rate of burnout due to boredom)
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal.
Maybe, just maybe they want to discourage you from applying. Maybe they don't like your face and tell you to use the broken machine, in the hope that you'll just give up, and they reserve hand-written applications forms for applicants that look more "kosher" than you to them.
I knew of an employer you used such tactics with applicants of black and arabic origins: he didn't want to be sued for racial discrimination, so he made sure non-white applicants had a really hard time applying.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
stop being a whiney bitch. If their terminal sucked, so what? You obviously have internet access to be posting your story to slashdot, and every public library has internet access, so you and the general public can apply online at Kroger's website.
http://www.kroger.com/careers.htm
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
It's going to be hard to convince them you need any accomodations, when you're posting to Slashdot to ask for advice!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Why don't you call your local bar association and ask for a referral to an employement lawyer? You aren't going to get a satisfactory answer to your question here.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
to be able to fill out even a paper application. You have to be able to read and write. Adding basic mouse clicking and typing skills to the list seems pretty minor.
Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today
Huh? Its easier than ever to find a job.
No wonder why the American unemployement rate is so high. It's all these illegal immigrants who were never educated in technology or the english language are the ones who are failing these job applications.
I think the more important question is: "Have enough IT jobs gone to foreign countries that we're being forced to bag groceries for a living?"
Seriously, unless you're planning to get rich via discrimination lawsuit does it matter?
I used to *hate* filling out gobs of paper applications - they'd inevitably have something like
write your entire life history here -> [______]
Do not omit significant details.
in a little 1/2" square box.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?
/.,
and not something like livejournal or myspace or whaterver, and (c)
yet somehow has to apply for a job at a grocery store.
The only legal concerns relate to the system that put you in your current situation. I'm puzzled home someone (a) literate enough to write such a thoughtful article summary for slashdot (perhaps a first), (b) electronically hip enough to use an online community like
Perhaps your state-supplied education failed you. Perhaps the politicians you trusted don't "get" that the world is now flat, and that your skills should be better than that of store clerk. Look at these problems when you size up your legal options.
Why aren't you fixing the Kiosk code, or making a better version of the kiosk? I think there are some legal concerns here: sue the bastards who put you in such a position, even if it only serves to highlight your own contribution to your problems.
Everybody has an Equal Opportunity to operate this crappy machine. Honestly I have no idea what the hell you're going on about.
In real life stuff doesn't always work. Employers don't bend over backwards to make your job search as easy as possible. Maybe once you have gained some of this experience you won't be looking to stock shelves at Krogers. Until then, suck it up and solve your own problems, and don't look for society (laws) to solve your problems. We don't really give a rip.
If the machine is broken, then the device is equally rejecting all applicants. On the other hand, if it doesn't work for visually impaired people then you may have a claim.
:-)
I'm not sure I understand your story: if the company's photocopier was broken and they couldn't give you a paper form, would you post to Slashdot about it being unequal? Or would you just wait until they fixed it? Did the manager refuse to fix the machine? Is the problem a broken machine or a bad design? If you are critiquing software, maybe a job at Krogers isn't for you. Alternatively, if you tried to be 31337 and broke the machine, then it is discriminating against hackers.
How do you feel you weren't put on EQUAL grounds with other applicants for the position? They all had to use the crappy terminal, too, right? If they forced one group of applicants (say, black) to use the terminals, but gave another (say, white) the choice, THAT would be inequality.
h tml):
Also, you question about whether it can be discriminatory to those of lower education. This boggles the mind. Do you not understand the difference between protected categories of discrimination and illegal discrimination? It's perfectly legal to discriminate based on education. That's so fundamental to applying for a job that I'm amazed I have to point it out. For example, if you are illiterate, you are SOL when it comes to filling out a paper application.
Anyway, here's something from the EEOC website (http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_practices.
Discriminatory practices under these laws also include:
* harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age;
* retaliation against an individual for filing a charge of discrimination, participating in an investigation, or opposing discriminatory practices;
* employment decisions based on stereotypes or assumptions about the abilities, traits, or performance of individuals of a certain sex, race, age, religion, or ethnic group, or individuals with disabilities; and
* denying employment opportunities to a person because of marriage to, or association with, an individual of a particular race, religion, national origin, or an individual with a disability. Title VII also prohibits discrimination because of participation in schools or places of worship associated with a particular racial, ethnic, or religious group.
Someone MIGHT be able to make a case for disability in this instance, but I doubt even that would stand up. The simple fact of the matter is that someone having a crappy hiring system that affects everyone equally is by definition NOT discriminatory.
If the machine was broken, it was broken for everyone. Online applications is the norm at this point, and you'd have to have a really solid position to challenge the company in court. Maybe if you were blind and their online application was a non-standards compliant web page...
Even then, do you really want to work for a company that you had to sue to get a job? Do you think they really want you on staff if they are forced to hire you on due to a lawsuit?
And what the hell are you talking about it being hard to find a job? The nation wide unemployment rate is around 5%, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Likely even jobs that you are qualified for. But YOU have to find them.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
This is not about the guy not knowing how the fark to work a computer, the issue is the employer refuses to provide him with a paper application, showing him to a computer to apply. A computer with a application application refusing to complete the application that the application was designed to submit to human resources in lieu of a paper application... Jeezus.
i wsed to work for them and boy are they cheep most likly it is for coust cutting have a person in india work on it than having the store mgr. do it
"I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
Don't see how this is an EOE issue if the machine equally refuse to allow anyone to apply.
:)
Be fun to see this policy streched over several years, At the end the manager would be the only one there.
Seriously though, if you really want to apply, find the corprate number and inform them of what happened. You should get a good sense of whether you want to work there or not, depending on how they respond.
"Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?"
I would think the goal here is to not annoy your potential employer.
I highly recommend NOT sueing potential employers; they don't like it.
-- [insert sig here]
the dreaded ID10T error [/obvious]
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
As an employer I really like the electronic filing approach. In addition to making sure that the applicant can at least read English (and isn't taking the application to someone who can read and write for assistance, as sad but needed test in the United States these days even for high school grads), we have the added benefit of remtely enabling the "form can be completed" feature if we like the applicant, or turning on the "form locks up at page two" feature and the applicant that we don't want thinks that the system is just buggy. We get to show fair hiring partices anong all applicants that do apply, and don't have to count those who can't get past the system.
Go to your public library, fill out the application.
Public libraries have computers for public use for just this reason [and to allow children from lower income families to print out reports that are required to be typed...].
Now, if we could just force more companies to get rid of horrible antiquated application forms which completely duplicate the information presented on every single resume...
Do you really think the broken computer is giving someone else an unfair advantage?
It would seem that an online application would be preferable in terms of equal opportunity. The person reading the application wouldn't be able to easily determine your race from the electronic forms. And it could hide your name and other identifying information from the manager until he/she decided to interview you. I would also suspect that it would be easier to gather metrics using a digital medium, to ensure fairness.
To answer your question more directly, I don't think there's anything illegal or unethical about their system, unless they're using it as a filter to only allow "acceptable" people to apply. (Which may very well be the case.) But EOE disclaimers only list things like race, gender, ethnicity, age, sexual preference, and disability. I don't think we'd want them to go further into things such as intelligence, people skills, personal hygiene -- things that might actually effect performance and teamwork.
I also fail to understand why you'd ask for legal advice from a bunch of geeks. And why you read Slashdot, yet claim to be technically dis-inclined.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
I have the same problem -- show up at an employers website, fill out hundreds of little checkboxes or dropdowns, only to never ever hear from that company. Did they receive your application? Did anyone read it? Were you even considered for the position in the first place? Sometimes you can't even call the company directly. I don't bother with those forms anymore. If my application isn't going to be read, why waste the time filling it out?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
how the f is that offtopic?
its perfectly on-topic, even if its retarded
jb
Usually these places have an application you can fill out at home, online if you have a computer which I'm assuming you do as you're reading this. Even if you don't, there are public computers.
Back in the day I applied for a company on the kiosk and of course it crashed near the end. Not to mention you have to use their retarded key pad, etc.
I asked the manager and he pointed me to the online version.
Check the companies Website. You'll probably see a version online.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
1 - Request job at company X
2 - Sue company X
3 - Get hired by company X
How the hell does this get through the editors?
please excuse my apathy
Adding basic mouse clicking and typing skills to the list seems pretty minor.
All the basic mouse clicking and typing skills in the world won't get you past "Connection timed out" or "The document contains no data" even after several reloads.
Don't most slashdot reader work there?
I'M KIDDING!!!
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
So their computer was broken. How is that different than you trying to apply, and finding out that "oh, the manager isn't here right now" or "gee, I can't find any blank applications" ? Companies do stupid things, they have bad processes, they run out of stuff.
Think of it this way, everyone who tried to apply that day was fucked, so there's no discrimination.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I have a GED, and 10 years of UNIX systems administration experience. My education level has never been a problem with my ability to do my job, unless the HRC thinks it is.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
The only way I could see being successful in this is if you are Amish and do not believe in using modern technology. However, if that is the case, why are you on /.?
No offense to any other Amish people who are reading this.
My guess is that the manager in question simply isn't very woried about hiring anybody right now. If he was working 60+ hours a week to cover for a short staff, you can bet he'd make sure your application was accepted electronically, on paper, or in just about any other form short of scratched onto the wall of a cave...
Of course, the obligatory disclaimer: IANAL, etc., so take it for what it's worth...
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
The nation wide unemployment rate is around 5%
I've read in many places that the nationwide unemployment rate issued by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics counts only people who are drawing unemployment insurance, which is not available to recent graduates and which expires after several months whether or not one's best job searching efforts result in a job offer. It also does not count situations of underemployment, such as an IT professional working at Kroger because local companies' IT departments are fully staffed.
I recently spend more than 4 hours completing and then recompletitng an online job form because the employeers web page kept losing my information. Now, the questions is, did they really get my info?
So, how many employeers out there are missing out on good employees because of faulty online forms and poor programming?
I think there might be many bad ones out there, because this is not the first time I have had problem with online employment systems.
Criminy, every time I look at the computer it's "steve Jobs this, Steve Jobs that". Newspaper and TV too...
Unless you believe you are being discriminated against based on some other factor, like the color of your skin or the fact that you have tatoos over 95% of your body or happen to weigh 400 pounds. In that case (well, in the first one at least) you may have a case. But then if that is indeed the problem you should have specified it to begin with instead of doing the "I'm being opressed because I have to use a mouse" routine.
In any event, believe it or not the effin' job market is pretty darn good right now, so if you have some sort of technical skills (and again, you identified the box as a "Genesis terminal" and seem to be posting to Slashdork so I assume that's the case) I'd suggest you look for something more along those lines.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Really, all I'm asking for is an email confirmation back, showing that they got it. As for them purposefully "misplacing" the submission, that can happen in any circumstance, online app or not.
Dark Reflection
Once upon a time (seems like such a short time ago)when I was in high school and working at Kroger's as a supervisor, I seem to recall a store manager telling me that the law required that I provide someone a job application form if they asked for one, even if we weren't hiring.
I also seem to remember some angry customer yelling at a manager and being asked to leave the store at which point they, out of spite, asked for a job application, knowing that we had to provide one...
OMFG! Please back this up! That is not significantly off the normal range.
It may involve some crude sexual acts. However, you don't need to know how to work a computer, and it pays twice as much!
I work for a company that does online and automated telephone hiring, so I have a small bit of experience in this area.
Hiring costs are a big deal, especially for large companies. A crapload of stuff can be automated. For example, if there's a minimum age requirement, the application software can automatically ignore all the 17 year olds who applied for a bartending job instead of having some HR person manually go through a stack of applications to sort out the idiots who applied even though they couldn't legally qualify. Trimming down the applicants to those who meet the minimum job requirements can save lots of time and money.
It's also easier to re-evaluate previous applicants when there are new job openings. Just because someone hired for one job doesn't mean you want to ignore them for future jobs. An automated system makes this possible. Paper applications are too much of a pain to review months later.
Data retention is another big deal. I know in California you are required to retain applications for one year (might be a Federal law, not sure). It's a damn sight easier to keep the data in electronic form rather instead of a big ass filing cabinet filled with thousands of applications you will never look at (nothing says you have to look at the applications, just retain them).
-- Will program for bandwidth
Real good jobs, you can online and use the thing called email. Its very easy.. you just put your resume on your website, make sure Google spiders it and look in your inbox for job offers. If that doesn't work, then try applying to a McDonald's....
Oh, come on! Score +5 Funny. I laughed so hard when I read that question I had cookie crumbs coming out my nose!
Maybe he can have Cliff's job...
Yes it is
I had less than 1 year of experience being a NT/Netware Lan admin when my job went to India as we moved our IT operations there.
I have no college degree so no one would hire me. I work at 7.50/hr now and live at home with my parents while I get my degree. I gave up in computers and I am quite bitter and dont want to go back in the field again.
http://saveie6.com/
The poster asked, "Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well?"
If I read his issue correctly it seems the problem wasn't he didn't know how to use the kiosk, the problem was the kiosk wasn't working ("machine miserably failed to get past the second page"), nor was the other one they pointed him to ("their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal"). He also commented that the application process seemed to require computer use for a job that didn't require it, not that he didn't know how to use one.
So his problem is with a company not providing a means to apply for a job, which may be discriminatory if they don't provide a reasonable means to apply to the general public.
"Maybe if he figured out how to get the thing fixed (who to call, whatever), or fixed it himself". Stores LOVE it when people come in and start screwing around with their equipment. That would go over real well. Plus, if you know how to fix a piece of equipment you've never seen before on the spot then you probably don't need a job in retail.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If the first page asked your race, and if you picked Black, Indian, or Chinese the next page gave an error, but if you picked Caucasian or Latino it worked fine.
Otherwise... it isn't discrimination, they just have a broken Kiosk.
This sig is the express property of someone.
Oh, come on! Score +5 Funny.
Sure, but 6 points deducted for not mentioning Ponies
Hey, I don't make the rules; there's no point in complaining to me about it. No Ponies, no +5.
fix the computer then fill out the application, I garuntee you get the job. People who will do what's needed without having to be told to are more valuable to employers.
1 - Request job at company X
2 - Sue company X
3 - Settle with company X for far more than you ever would have made bagging groceries
Pathetic.
I tell you what, I got my first job because of one simple thing. I stuck it out in lobby while he kept me sitting around for 45 minutes.
That was all he really wanted to know, did I want the job enough to jump some simple hoops? or was I a QUITTER?
Pretty much the interview was for show, I had the job barring being a total moron in the short interview.
You don't have a work history, neither did I at the time, so what do they judge you on?
They judge you how much do you want the job. When you have provable value and skills you can complain about how they jerked you around.
In the meantime, they saved themselves hiring a guy that gives up easy.
In other words, you have choosen poorly. Now learn from it.
Learning is not compulsory... niether is survival. -Deming
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
No skills + no experience + no education
Not trying to be funny, but do you think that might be why you don't have a high paying job in your chosen field?
I don't see any problems here. Your opportunity is as equal as the next guy who tries to use that broken down machine. Besides, I believe EOE is in regards to race, religion, sex, etc... How the perspective employer receives your application is up to them.
Many people on unemployment have to meet a quota of job applications in order to qualify for compensation. This leads many people to apply for jobs without real interest in these jobs.
Other times there are many more applicants than would be expected for jobs. Factors like these lead to having very many applications for a limited number of jobs.
Even if the company's investment in human time was just a few minutes per applicant, it is a significant manount of time in total.
Rather than spead a human's time on the large ammount applications, many places use a computer to collect the applications.
Rather like going through a phone tree before you get to talk to a human calling some places on the phone, the machine takes the initial brunt, hoping to reduce the load on the humans behind the robo-wall.
-- 3 events that reshaped the world in the 20th century: WW1, WW2, and WWW
I don't have a citation for you but there was a company that required prospective janitors to have a high school diploma. They got in trouble and had to stop. The government's reasoning was that the job didn't require a high school diploma, and while the business might have a right to demand irrelevant qualifications they didn't have the right to demand irrelevant qualifications that discriminted against minorities.
These processes help weed out undesirable people.
You have the legal right to seek employment elsewhere. If you don't like the way a company handles business, or their (potential) employees, then apply with employers that you feel are doing things the right way ... or at least a better way ;)
Okay, so there seem to be endless stories here on /. about people not being able to find employment, and bemoaning the fact that none of their (apparently super-qualified) friends can find jobs either.
Where are these people when we (in the business community) put up ads for employment?
Most of the business owners I know (yes, we all know one another...that's what those silly clubs like Kiwanis and Rotary is all about) can't seem to find an employee that's worth jack shit, when they can even find people at all.
Is there some cosmic disconnect? Nobody can find employees, and none of the unemployed can find jobs. I don't get it.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
To put things in perspective, the EEOC itself is moving to online claims filing.
As far as Kroger's is concerned, there is an online version of the form, which you should be able to get at, if you are able to post on Slashdot.
In the online form, it clearly states:indicating that they will accomodate you if you are legitimately disabled; illiteracy is not a disability. Although there are disabilities which can interfere with someone becoming literate, there is generally no disability that would prevent it completely (look at Helen Keller - both deaf and blind, but a successful author).
So even if you have a case, it's not a case until they fail to accomodate you within applicable law.
Your argument seems to come down to "kiosks suck, and this should be an EEOC violation, which is a false assertion of entitlement on your part.
-- Terry
It's called disparate impact. If the higher level of education is not required, that by itself is not the problem. The problem is if in the applicant pool, more of a certain protected class of people don't meet that level of education. In most cases, what happens is that the white applicants do, for example, have a high school diploma... while blacks and Hispanics are more likely not to.
However, it's progressively easier to claim that the education is required, as more and more jobs require employees to have literacy and problem-solving skills even at low levels.
Kodak used to have groups that would travel and interview. Suddenly new HR people come in and we're ONLY accepting resumes from electronic submissions.
.. have you seen Kodak's stock price lately? Any new innovative products? Nope? I wonder why...
Fighting it was difficult- we could not legally (their words, IANAL) email a candidate we liked to ask him to submit his/her resume. We had to simply tell them that we could interview them but nothing would come of it unless they submitted an application online.
Why? Because now we can be 'tracked' for government purposes. We would be 'complying' with the equal opportunity employment acts. We wouldn't be able to get the best talent, only the t alent that applied thru the portal.
And the portal was a pain in the ass.
Of course, the people that pushed the brass ring system in were laid off 2 years later, but the damage was done. No more recruiting- just let them come to us.
And
Does this guy even know what EOE is? If the application terminal is broken, then nobody is going to get a job. So, everybody who wants to apply for the job has an 'equal opportunity' or chance to get the job. That chance being 0%.
OTOH, if they are looking for someone with basic computer skills and he is just too incompetent to fill out the application, he doesn't fit there job requirements anyway. Any company has the right to refuse employment to someone if they don't have the required skills for the job. That's just common sense.
...Unless you're in a protected group, EEO doesn't apply to you.
You can forget it unless you are:
- A racial minority
- A woman
- Physically disabled
or
- Mentally disabled
Also, you should be aware that most retail and grocery "shelf-stocking" positions aren't in the stores themselves, but through the vendors that make/distribute the products. Our company serves retail stores and has hundreds of "field merchandisers" whose job it is to go into stores and move our product from the loading dock area to the sales floor. Maybe find a company that needs a field merchandiser in your area.
Who did what now?
Inventory control and RFID, to name a couple of reasons
Everyone I know who says that they can't find a job are doing the same thing: faxing or e-mailing a resume, possibly submitting something online, and then waiting. Let me tell you something as an employer, sending your resume in the mail doesn't tell me you want the job. Following up with phone calls, in-the-flesh visits, and thank-you notes after interviews will get my attention. If you're fishing for "just something" then you're not the type of employee I want to invest in.
"Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper as opposed to digitally?"
I don't think EOE helps you, but BFOQ (bona fide occupational qualification) is definitely applicable here. You are absolutely right that being able to work a computer is irrelevant to a job stocking shelves.
If the machine was actually *broken*, the most you can do really is get in touch with Kroeger Mgmt. (the district manager, or whatever), and let them know what an idiot manager they have working at that particular store. I don't think you'll be telling them anything they don't already know, however.
If the machine wasn't broken - a good test for this, incidentally, is have a friend fill out an app on the machine - then you have a good case. Because being able to successfully navigate their piece-of-sh** software is not a BFOQ, it is reasonable to ask to be accommodated. That doesn't mean they have to give you a paper app. It does mean they should assist you with completing the application process. Whether privacy policy will win out vs BFOQ is one for the courts. But you do have something, there.
If you are a member of a protected class, and think you are being discriminated against because of that (see the other post about that tactic), then again, a good test is to have a friend who isn't in your class fill out an app, and see how they are treated. Be sure to have the friend pretend (if needed) to have trouble with the software. If they are helped and you are not, you've got something. The ACLU will be interested, even if no one else is.
Incidentally, on the subject of EOE and BFOQ... it is perfectly legal to discriminate based on, for example, gender, provided you can show that it is a BFOQ. An exotic dancer, for instance.
This is all based on HR 101 and some electives I took as part of my BA. I'm not actually working in HR these days, but I have a little insight into some of the issues because of Management school.
HTH!
Its not about not liking them. He was simply trying to inform the manager that he was unable to apply and looking for an alternative method... And I am feeding trolls. *slaps hand* bad Charles!
Charles Wyble System Engineer
"Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today, even though the national unemployment rate is around 5%, and even harder to obtain due to the increased proliferation of on-line-only or electronic-only job applications, since I don't have an internet connection and had to mail this in to Slashdot via the USPS. I know this firsthand - as today (well, actually last week, you know how slow snail mail is) I attempted to apply for a job at Kroger's, only to discover that I had to fill out one of these new-fangeled electronic applications in their 'Career Opportunities Kiosk.' I miserably failed to get past the second page of the multi-paged application. I've asked the manager if there was a paper application to fill out (why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves? It's not like it's nuclear radiology or something.) and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their Dell Genesis Terminal even though I am broken and defunct. Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at here? Maybe claim for an RSI because they don't use ergonomic keyboards?"
"Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware, and the refusal by the manager to give me a paper application to fill out as an alternative. Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well? I mean, I also applied for a job as a professor of nuclear radiology and they refused me because I got my GED in the 2nd grade. Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper, using crayons, as opposed to digitally?"
--- This
This is the way we are headed. I flew out to another state to attend a job fair. Raytheon was there. I waited my 45 minutes in line with resume in hand and gave it to the HR manager standing there as I introduced myself. He handed it back to me, and proceeded to tell me how to use their broken website to search for jobs and to apply online. I FLEW OUT TO A JOB FAIR! I paid for the air travel, the hotel, and the rental car.. and they tell me to go back home and make their broken website work. WTF?! It's a job fair! So this is definitely going to be the frustrating norm.
The worst of it is.. you search their site and you get a bagillion job hits. You click on the link to read more details and it asks you a bunch of questions about why you think you're a good candidiate for the cryptic two word position title, and then send your resume. You never get a chance to actually read the job description on the Raytheon website. What gives? And this guy send me back home and he's at a job fair. What in the world do these lazy HR people expect?
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
I really dont think your know how at a computer terminal is what so many fought for in 1964. This is another case of someone knowing just a tiny bit of law and then howling lawsuit because they feel things are not fair.
"April 20, @04:20PM" ...
Don't you have somewhere to be right now?
Anyway, those terminals are extremely simple to use even for a computer novice (very much like a MegaTouch game at the bar) so I don't think any reasonable person could say that forcing their use is discrimination against any lower class. Their alternative to a broken terminal is to apply on their website (and you can do that from any public library). You can't blame them for not wanting to manually enter hundreds of applications.
The problem with all of these electronic application systems is that your application goes to the main office and it may be weeks before you are matched with an opening at the preferred store. In my experience, store managers have always found someone via friend-of-a-friend before bothering to call the main office to request random applications. And that's if they are even hiring at the time you apply.
If there's any discrimination against any group to be found here, it will be in the non-functioning kiosk and that they therefore do not provide a way for those without Internet access to apply for a job. A sharp and lucky attorney could at least argue that, if certain minorities have less access to the Internet, then requiring Internet access discriminates against those minorities by not providing a functional method to apply.
More information would be needed, but there could be a case.
For example:
Is the failure a problem with the machine in the kiosk, or does everyone's computer fail miserably to get past the second page?
If it is the machine, how long has it been broken? Maybe it was working two days ago. Maybe it will work again if someone just reboots (it is a Dell and is therefore likely running Windows, right?).
Mark
How is an EOE issue? Did the machine / software suddenly crash when it recognized your race/(trans)gender/religion/marital status/sexual orientation? Or maybe, it just didn't like the way you look? Perhaps being smarter than the terminal is part of the interview process.
See Dad, I told you I was looking for work! Didn't you read Slashdot today? I tried to apply but their kiosk was broken. Now stop yelling at me about being unemployed!
Don Henley of the Eagles says ...
In high school when I applied to the local grocery store (Publix > *) I had to use one of those crap machines. They are truly a disaster. Some don't even have real keyboards, instead using some sort of rubber buttons like that of a "PDA" that is free with rebates every weekend at CompUSA.
I remember making an error, going back a page, and losing everything. It was embarassing to say the least,
"CLEAN UP TEH GIB FROM NOOB TEH WEBGUY ON AISLE 3 PLZ LOLOLO"
-- lol pwned
are you one of those useless sales people that walk around Frys?
The EOE is about race, religion, sex, color, age, national origin, or physical or mental disability, etc. Not education. It's perfectly legal for a company to require computer ability and minimum education level to get a job. We do it all the time (clue: read the want ads some time. See where it says "BS Degree Required"?).
Kroger however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware
Get. Over. Yourself.
I'm going to go out on a limb here. I bet Kroger is still hiring people. No...really, I bet they are. I'm betting that all the brokenness in the world isn't keeping people from getting through the on-line application and getting jobs.
Actually, I know this is true, since I shop at Kroger and there's always a new face. And you know what? I don't know how dumb you are, but I do know that a few of those new hires are not real bright. I mean, really really not bright. And yet they got through the on-line application. And got a job.
why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves?
Because that's your prospective employers process. It's the little hurdle you have to get over to be considered for a job. And it's apparently a pretty good screener. If you can't manage to get through the application, there's good odds you'll have "issues" when faced with the really broken, mindnumbing and annoying parts of the actual job.
By having a broken machine, Kroger gets no job applicants. That way they can lobby congress to let them hire more immigrants who will work for less because "no american will take the job".
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Uh, no. Most would either getting fired for causing the cash register to blue screen or too busy listening to their iPods while checking out the girls. Assuming that they're not afraid to step out of their basement that is.
You have got to be joking.
/. are irrelevant these days; now we must suffer the site being used as a forum for some neurotic person's indignant whining? What's next? Sections devoted to the plight of left-handed people? Advice for deaf people who are new to suing the entire fucking world. Ash Slashdot: I'm black. What should I do?
It's not bad enough half the stories on
The company is discriminating equally, against everyone. They'll fix it as soon as a manager has to start filling in for students quitting for the Summer, etc. ASsuming the manager doesn't quit, as well.
Any company that would pull a stunt like this deserves whatever it gets. Or, in this case, whatever it doesn't get, which in this case means employees.
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
Ahh yes, finally... the whiny bitch complaint.
Why don't YOU stop being a whiny bitch about HIM being a whiny bitch?!
Hmmm... Oh wait. Maybe I should stop being a whiny bitch about YOU being a whiny bitch about HIM being a whiny bitch?!... Damn, the bitching never ends!
We've discovered the key to perpetual bitching!... The whiny bitch complaint!
One large, well known company in the tech industry only accepts job applications by their web site. Of course I would follow up resumes with phone calls to improve my chances, but they don't provide any way to do that. Don't call us, we'll call you.
Oh, and if we're talking about the low level service sector jobs like at grocery stores or Wal-Mart, one pet peeve of mine is that on top of the other stupid hoops they make you jump through, they make you take an "Integrity test" with questions like "Is it ok to steal medication for your 4 year old that needs dialysis because you're too poor to pay for them?" Strongly Agree, Agree, Disagree, Strongly Disagree... Of course, if you don't put Strongly Disagree, the system automatically circular-files your application.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
I would strongly suspect the kiosk is running the exact same application as the web site: http://kroger.com/careers.htm.
I'll put on my BOFH hat: If you don't have a computer, go to the library. If you dont have a library, move to a place with one. You're obviously not a completely computer illiterate whining dumbass, you managed to get your post on slashdot.
Sheesh!
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
One thing that I think might be illegal is all those personality tests that those Kiosk make you take. Having a friend that works for Albertsons as a manager, he tells me that in order to be interviewed you have to come out with a Green/Green designation, otherwise you can't be interviewed. The problem I have with such systems is that the pre-employment personality tests don't reveal enough and they don't take into account your thought process, and they rarely related to the job that you're applying for. One peer of mine was applying for a job as a stocker, but she was turned down because her customer service skills weren't enough. The tests eliminate people with out taking into consideration prior experience or skills which may mitigate those short commings. It is one thing for someone to say that you won't fit in, but it is quite another thing when a computer makes some sort of mathmatical calculation to say you don't get a job. Since when do night stockers need customer service skills? Or if you are going to be the janitor, why do you need to score high on 'works well with others' when it is a self-supervised position?
The views expressed are mine own and do not express the views of my employer.
but where I live I think it is against the law to deny anyone an application. So if you ask for an app they have to give you one.
at the sign on the front of the store. It says:
KROGER
It doesn't say
Kroger's
Maybe you were reading the app wrong, too.
Posted by Cliff on Thursday April 20, @04:20PM
Maybe Cliff was smokin a doobie and allowed this through...
Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here? Just because their machine isnt working? No. Thats like suing because the pen they told you to use was out of ink. Wow..
if you haven't read slashdot, i won't hire you because you're a lamer who doesn't keep up on the latest non-news
if you read slashdot, i won't hire you because you waste too much time on crap like this
if you used to read slashdot, but now get all your news from the onion, i'll think about it
> Actually *IQ* tests for employment are illegal.
Not to mention utterly unreliable. As are most standardized tests.
I grew up in the sticks. No other children around at ALL. To say that I was bored would be an understatement. I dug around in my father's garage. I read the Encylopedia Brittanica for fun. I built stuff in the back yard.
Fast forward to high school and suddenly, "Whoa! I'm a frikkin' genius!" I could identify a spark plug. (I clearly remember this being on one test or another.) I grasped the concept of mechanical leverage. I knew where Europe was. I was a genius. An amazing genius.
No I wasn't. I had some knowledge. The knowledge that I did have was GREATLY outweighed by the social retardation that I'd suffered during my formative years. To this day I'm still not what you'd call a "people person". I spent this morning applying for yet another job that I probably won't get because there isn't a thing on the planet that I'm worse at than, "So, tell us a bit about yourself."
According to my test scores I'm superior to the vast majority of people out there. Standing back and actually looking at my life would argue otherwise.
Do not trust test scores.
If the computer is broken, that is one thing. If you can't figure out how to fill in the application, just ask the manager or an employee for help. They'd probably read each question to you and fill in your answers if you really needed them to. Did you bother to ask the manager for help filling out the questionaire, or did you just jump straight to "can I sue them?"
At this kid's age forget about Krogers. Get a job at a restaraunt where they serve booze and have hot young waitresses. After work chances there is a party somewheres and you will be banging one of them.
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
http://financialpetition.org/
You whining little pussy.
"I also know that one of the companies that produces ambulances employs many, many Amish people to do the wiring"
"Who knows more about electricity than the Amish?" -- Homer Simpson
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Maybe if it was somehow relying on your inept computer skills to "filter" you out, maybe.
But if it's just buggy software, then one would assume that EVERYONE is unable to apply.
So I would call this stupidity on the part of the HR department, but definitely not an EOE violation.
Huh? No -- it's the equivalent of walking into a store and asking for an application, and having them say "I'm sorry, we're out of application forms today."
The fact that the computer was broken isn't like being given an application in some language that only a small number of people can read, it means nobody can use it. It's just totally unavailable. There's no discrimination, because regardless of who you were, you're stuck.
The only thing I can think of is maybe if this guy had been brighter or better with computers, he could have somehow fixed the system, sent in his application, and then "broken" the computer again when he was done. Now that would be the equivalent of getting an application in hieroglyphics; only the rare person who had a certain skill (and one unrelated to the job they were applying for) would be able to submit the application. But this guy didn't fix the computer, he just wasn't able to apply. Just like everyone else.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
According to my test scores I'm superior to the vast majority of people out there. Standing back and actually looking at my life would argue otherwise.
Ahhh, I see you're confusing "smart" with "superior". Go ahead and make an Slashdot user account, you'll fit right in here!
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Nope, it has not. And they're moving towards a situation, whether formal or unspoken I'm not sure, where in order to be promotable beyond a certain level, you either need to have a BA/BS or some type of fairly specialized training. If you look in the back of the Army Times, you'll see tons of ads for correspondence and online schools that cater to military personnel who are working on degrees in order to help their promotability. Education counts towards your "points" which are the basis of enlisted grade increases. I don't know the actual point values, but I'm sure you can look them up if you're interested.
There are certain officer levels that are fairly education-dependent, also: you basically need a bachelors or to be working on a bachelors to get commissioned, and they really like you to have a masters in something when you go for Major from Captain. (I don't know if they require a PhD for your star or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.) That masters might be from the Army War College and in a skill that's not particularly applicable outside the Army, but it's a degree nonetheless.
I've been told -- and it makes sense -- that the Army tends to concentrate more on higher education during peacetime, or in times when there aren't a lot of guys with actual combat experience in promotion tracks. I'd expect that during and after a war, somebody with actual in-theater time would probably be able to get a lot of the academic stuff waived. I also think this is why a lot of the requirements aren't formalized as such; they don't require you to have a college degree to be an officer, but you're probably not going to be competitive if you don't. But they leave the possibility open just so that someone really qualified based on military experience doesn't get barred based on a technicality.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Amish kids are allowed a year to go out into the world and go hog wild, use high tech, wear colorful clothes, yada yada, all the stuff they don't do back at the ranch.. This is to show them that going back to the simpler ways is actually better, and most choose to go back. Not all, but most.
Hey, looked it up, here is the more detailed wikipedia entry for it, this deal with the kids has a name, "rumspringa"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
As to tech, they can and do *slowly* adopt new tech. Every step is debated in their councils. Just hit the generic wikipedia entry for amish to read about them.
While it may be the case that the EEOC laws do not deal with education they clearly do deal with disability. If those computerized application devices can't be used by the blind, and I have never seen one that can be used by the blind, then the companies had better have some means for the blind to be able to apply or that is a violation of the EEOC laws.
not mennonites?
power saws? I'd be really dubious of that.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
You were not the best candidate. You must know someone to be the best.
I'm willing to bet the "make them wait 45 minutes" test has no predictive value whatsoever.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Diebold made the machines.
ask to see his boss. If he is BSing you he will give you what you want. If he is not you have the opportunity to speak to someone that is possibly authorized to make that decision.
A whole 30 minutes.
According to this, the poster smokes "a lot of opium." Maybe that has something to do with his inability to apply for the job.
rooooar
I was going to apply to a well-known national recruiting agency. They only accept online applications. They claimed to have a job that suited me very well, so I went ahead.
I always read their terms of use and various agreements. This one was very long and had a link to another page. I read that one, it was long and referred to a hard document, but no one at the company had a copy of that document. To apply for a job, you have to agree to something that you can't read.
In high tech, you can't get around applying online, I've tried. Ok, sometimes I succeed, sometimes not. But in cases like this, I walk away. I'm so tempted to contact the state attourney general, but there is no way I want my name associated with the complaint. Maybe I'm paranoid, but, well heck, yeah, I'm paranoid...
Hell, I'm still sitting here short two .Net developers.
In which town? Do you offer relocation assistance for qualified candidates?
Kroger's used to have one where you wrote your name phone number, and circle what position you wanted and left less than a minute later.
The better tests in these categories do not assume much knowledge. If you are looking at a test that assumes you should know the capital cities of all the States of the United States, the result is useless unless the test is for somebody working as a geography teacher, but if it is used for another purpose then the problem is not that standardised tests are bogus, it's that the test does not correspond to what you are trying to measure.
AHAHAHAHAHA. Ha. Ha ha. Yes. Outside of the US is where all the opportunities are. That's why most immigrants come here. They want the challenge!
everything in moderation
Yes, I do seem to recall reading about the huge numbers of Germans, French, and Japanese that were begging to be allowed into America because it's such a wonderful place to work and raise a family etc. /sarcasm
People try to come to America, generally, because their countries are shit-poor, and often they have contacts in the country. It's also much easier for people from Latin America to get to the USA than to Europe or Japan (exception being those with Japanese ancestry in Peru/Brazil, but they don't tend to be as poor). It's the same reason that Turks and other Muslims are flooding western Europe. It has nothing to do with whether they would rather go to the US, it's just about how much easier it is to get to other First World countries.
As an ex-pat, the biggest drawback for me, living outside the country, is just that I am not close to my friends and family from back home. This would also be true in Hawaii, which is by all accounts a wonderful place to live, and part of the US. If you have a First World lifestyle, moving out of the country is difficult enough that most people don't think it's worth it, even if they believe strongly that the French, German, Japanese, or whatever system is much better.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
I agree. These electronic applications are unfair. My biggest gripe is that I'm a dvorak typist so instead of only taking 5 mins to fill out, it now takes me 3 times as long because it's using the broken QWERTY layout and I can't change it.
Also if it was a paper app, they could only fit so many questions. Have you filled out a electronic application recently? Not only do they ask you every detail of your life, but the also administer a personality profile. The whole process will take half an hour if you're lucky. At the end I'm pissed off because they wasted my time. If I'm gonna sit at their terminal for an hour they should pay me $6.75 to do it.
At the end of the whole process I get passed up because I'm unfriendly. Bullshit.
Fuck the capitalists. I suggest everyone join me in my endevor to DOS the job application process. Go fill out applications, get hired, and then don't show up for work. Either that or be really bad at it; piss off the customers or whatever.
If they're gonna waste my time, I'm going to waste theirs.
On a related topic:
ATTENTION ALL SLASHBOTS.
They will be a revolution on May 1st, International Workers Day. Where will you stand? The issue is not Mexicans stealing your American Dream. The super-rich have sold out the working class and are now trying to distract you by making us the scapegoat. I urge all working class people and believers in equality and fairness to rise up against the Senate.
HR4437 Does not reflect the will of the people.
Demand justice for all working class people.
It's not what you know, it's who you know. So suck up the mangers of the store and you're hired.
do they order some percentage more than whats sold and just hope it balances out?
or do they still check the store every few months or so?
or what?
afaict one big problem with the pick your own system is that staff don't find out when stock runs out even though the computer thinks its in. Regular full stock checks are an option but expensive.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
That's why most immigrants come here. They want the challenge!
They do? I'd love to see some numbers on that.......
But regardless, most of those people are a different class of immigrants. That is, not people fleeing their country out of desperation, but rather well-off people coming to America because of the even greater opportunities for the well-off, created by the larger socio-economic inequalities. I don't think many poor people would want to move from somewhere where they could get health care, even if unemployed, to America, where they could get 3 jobs and still have no health care and live in poverty.
I would be very interested in seeing statistics, though, which I haven't found. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that people don't tend to leave other First World countries out of NEED for a job. An added factor is that most people in those countries actually learn English, while the average American knows only English (with increasing numbers knowing Spanish natively as well), and thus is less likely to go abroad.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
If you are trainable, professional, and willing to work at Junior pay foryour entire career, there are many doors open for you.
There all fixed.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
http://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/homch1_h.htm
any other questions?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You need a job, and now you think you can sue to get one?
PC broken. TELL HIM. Don't run off at the first opp to try to force someone to give you a job. EOE doesn't mean they'll employ ANYBODY. Does an EOE have to consider an illiterate primary school dropout with crim record for their CEO vacancy? EOE doesn't mean you can get the job without the skills they want. IE Ability to use a PC or get help. Which you surely don't have.
The only problem here seems to be that their kiosk was broken. What you could have done is used to the computer, internet connection, and time you utilized to whine about this on Slashdot to go to Kroger's Webite and to their "Careers" page, and then filled out the application there, at home.
There's a reason you couldn't fill it out on paper, and that is undoubtedly so the applications, all applications, can be screened by computer.
Couldn't resist.
Jobs hard to find? Just off-hand I'd say it's harder to find reliable workers. Depends where you live and what kind of jobs you're talking about, but if you're willing to work I see a world flush with opportunity. And they're better jobs than working at Kroger.
Let me guess, you grew up with your mom shuttling you around in the back of an SUV, right? Not interacting with the world, just watching it fly by the back seat windows while you played with your Game Boy. The unemployment rate today is something like 4.7% or close to it. That means if you have a pulse and two neurons to rub together to make a spark you can find a job.
Now if you can't find a job because you can't figure out a kiosk or don't have the the nerve to ask questions because you're not strapped in the back seat, then that's too bad, kid. Otherwise I have 10 acres of brush that needs clearing, another 9 acres that needs fenced, a pond that needs stocking, wind turbine towers to put up, two down tress that need cut up and split...that and the other projects I have going would keep you busy most of the summer. The reason I don't do it myself is that I have a full time day job, a part-time sideline career, do video production and produce commercials for the side-line job AND I've got a meeting with another company next week on a consulting gig that needs help becuase they can't fill a full time position.
Can't find a job....ugghhhhh.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
"Legal options"? I'm loving it! Imagine having to respond to a supermarket lawsuit against you, charging, that you did not buy their orange juice because you did not like the packaging...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
there are quite a lot high rated, bully morons here.
.. (what was enterprise name again?) has quite a lot "online" happy employed ppl, and it shows.
that makes me suspect of the ppl giving the kudos. maybe
or something else happens.
and dont tell me "morons" is not right, as they have been using hard words aswell and being quite offensive.
As for what he is asking about, it may not be discrimintaion.. or maybe is? its a discrimination to those who cant have access in other place than their office.
Well, maybe you'd have better luck applying at the national chain of grocery stores called "Kroger". This "Kroger's" must be some half-assed local monm-n-pop who obviously doesn't have the budget to hire an IT staff, let alone enough to pay you to stock the shelves. The big chain with a similar name might be a better bet, and would probably offer more stability.
Or, you're a dumbass who didn't even know the name of the store at which you were applying to work, which often is a disqualifying attribute. That would explain the inability to type letters into boxes on a computerized application.
Unicru is the worst online job app ever concieved, on a slow connection it can easily take up 3 hours of your time, and asks for sensitive information that is not necessary for the job at hand, such as family history, tax information, and your SS number at least 5 times.. To me this sounds like a recipe for disaster. This is also why I refuse to work at places that use UNICRU.
They should make online job apps completely optional.
This seems like a plum violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Employers and potential employers must offer alternative means to submit a job application. Differerntly-abled individuals with visual and motor impairments could make an excellent case. ADA guidelines and California rules and interpretations of the law are already having significant impact on my employer. Web developers who don't consider accessibility might want to consider alternative employment as your employer may soon be sued.
signature pending slashdot approval
... of the submission. Not to mention it's been posted far too late and the advice I could've used then isn't completely needed now.
I managed to apply. AFTER MANY PAINFUL SESSIONS of saving partway thru my application and using different locations (It broke at the library, it broke in their store, it broke on my internet connection - it's their software, or their hardware hosting the software - not their terminals.) to input the application data online. TWO DAYS TO FILL OUT AN APPLICATION DIGITALLY, I could've done the same application, personality survey included, in 20-30 minutes on paper.
But that is not my main gripe. My main gripe is pretty simple - Their equipment wasn't working, their application wasn't working from my home nor the public library which is not even 500 feet away from my house, and I asked for a paper application so I could have the ability to apply for the job - and I was told NO. I was denied the opportunity to apply. Is that following EOE, at all? I heard from a few people I know in management that companies were required to keep paper applications on hand until 2007. I can't attest to the truthfulness of their word so any clarity on that "requirement" would be appreciated.
Nice modding this a troll story guys, and it's all thanks to stuff that I had put in the submission being edited out. Funny, now that I try to access my submissions, I get a 503.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It's not an EEOC thing. It's a lazy thing. Everyone does this to eliminate the human contact.
. html
:)
"Fear not for they no not what they do. It's a REPUBLICAN thing."
Do you think they read the applications. Bull Shit? They go into a database to support whatever.
You want the job? Bug the manager. Everytime you walk in the store.
Otherwise, call the local news outlets. Make a big deal out of the issue. Stand up for yourself.
Sheep, BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Else, file an EEOC complaint, it's free:
http://www.eeoc.gov/
http://www.eeoc.gov/charge/overview_charge_filing
Happy days
PS: record your applications entries on video tape as the database will not be available until after 2008.
1. The keyboards on those things are often tiny - no one with large hands need apply.
2. WHY do they have to have multiple pages? WHY cant all the info be on one 'page', that you simply scroll down, instead of entering one or two items, clicking next, waiting eons for it to load the next page, rinse, lather, repeat. This applies to websites too - if there is no reason not to collect more information on the same page, do it.
3. Often they have an alternative 'online' process, but these are very often so MS-centric that they dont work at all in anything other than the latest version of MSIE.
> The machine miserably failed to get past the second page...I've asked the
> manager if there was a paper application to fill out... and he has told me
> that I -must- fill out the application on their...Terminal. Are there legal
> concerns that I should be looking at, here?"
> Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being
> denied my equal opportunity to gain employment...Can this be considered
> discriminatory to those of a lower education level
Does Kroger make other, better kiosks available to the computer literate? Or are you implying that because the more computer literate have their own PCs they can apply online? Since other computers are often available thorugh libraries and such, there seems absolutely no basis for a EOE violation claim here.
That said, this -may- still be illegal, at the state level. In Ohio, there is absolutely no slack cut for employers who don't have application blank forms, or who for other reasons have a problem accepting applications (or at least there was when I was managing). Anyone who comes in can apply, at any time, and the owner/manager is required to allow them to fill out an application, and must accept the application.
Out of application forms? Tough; get some or accept something on plain paper. No openings? Tough; accept the application anyway. Computer doesn't work? Tough; accept a paper form or plain paper.
So you can pursue this, but I think state law would be the thing to look at.
I notice Sears and Taget have PC based application kiosks, too.
Home Depot does, and in my callow youth I went there to apply only to crash the machine. Nobody in the store had a clue how it worked, so I three-finger-saluted it (it was running Windows 98 - ugh), ran a scandisk and found a few cooties, and then took the application again.
Even after having a manager and two employees stand there and watch me fix their computer they STILL didn't hire me. Ingrates.
Standard Slashdot response guide:
Comment: "I don't like this company"
Response: "Don't work there!"
C: "Ok, I don't work there anymore"
R: "Get a job you bum!"
C: "Ok, I got a great job, it is with Microsoft!"
R: "You tool! You should be working for free at home on Linux."
C: "Ok, I worked for free and lost my apartment and now I need help"
R: "Stop mooching off the government like some welfare mom!"
C: "Ok, the only place in town with a wage I can live off of is being sleezy in their hiring methods"
R: "Don't work there!"
I started programming in 1980, professionally in 1988. I still write my own code on many occaisions. I also do system administration. Those are the two areas I've always been interested in and done.
I do both of those things in my current job, as well as some management, some project management, and various other things that I think are pointless most of the time, detrimental the rest of the time. However, by doing the things I don't particularly enjoy, but the company needs to have done, I continue to provide value to the company and get to do some of the things I'm interested in. I've read a few books on project management in order to do what's needed of me better. Some parts gave me some useful insight into what the job entails. Other parts reinforced my previous belief that many project managers think that they can violate the laws of physics by either adding or omitting tasks to their plans.
I've realized that nobody in the real world gives a crap about me and what I want. The business world can be cold and harsh if you don't know how to work within it. We're all just resources. If they could pay someone to rapidly trace pieces of paper faster than a copier and at a lower cost, they would. Likewise, if they could buy a machine to do my job at less than they pay me, they would.
Is that 16 years a gap in your work history? That would work against you when comparing you against other applicants. You need to find a way to differentiate yourself from other people who don't have that gap and want the same job. For me, senior level experience in system administration and programming is a rare combination that makes it easier to get my foot in the door. Business people only care about what you've been doing that can benefit them. They don't attach value to taking care of your daughter. You need to demonstrate how you can provide value that meets their needs. It's really no different than my son being too young to understand that everything we have comes from me working, but if I want a nap after a long day at work, I'm going to end up getting poked in the eye.
You should not get caught selling dope or jacking cars since you can't seem to get a minimum wage job.
You failed the first test. If you can't make a crummy little Dell work, how are you going to handle a Windows Server Farm?
Why do they want electronic applications? Simple, to weed out people faster and have less time spend on reviewing them. When you completely automate the initial screening process, they only end up with a small number of applicants that pass the psychological parts of the test. This means less "errors" in the human interpretation of an application. What we should be concerned about it the fact it is electronic, but rather with the screening process and questions themselves.
...etc
Having helped develop the Linux Kiosk image for one of these terminals at the second largest home improvement retailer in the US, I learned a few things about how they work. The companies that develop the actual screening process perform a sort of psychological screening prior to any one in HR seeing the application. It's really easy to detect these questions. The repeat the questions and often change the wording to try and see if an applicant trips up. Example:
Question: Are you a Theif? can be often phrased as "Have you ever accidently ended up with office supplies and not returned them?" or "Have you ever taking something from your workplace and not returned it?" or "If you felt your company owed you, would you take something from them?"
The basic idea is to come up with phrasing that will state you have stolen before and are implying you are a theif. It's pretty tricky how they operate with these questions. They often get more probing on the questions as well. The point is, I'm less worried about the fact it's electronic than the idea of a required psychological evaluation prior to say "stocking shelves". I think we often try so hard not to trust people that we loose a part of humanity. The key is, better information, numbers and honesty about your companies supplies will ensure the right thing is done. For instance, if 3 night stockers are working in a locked building and suddenly the store is reporting a lot of missing counts on products that were put in by employee X, then they could simply ask that employee if they knew why they were coming up short. Rather than confront them and ask if they stole the goods, then alert that employee that they need to work on the counts otherwise consequences arise. It's not fool proof, but if employees know you track inventory strictly, then they are less likely to steal from that tracked inventory. You don't have to track the movements, history, or lives of the employees, but rather your own assets.
Excellent post, thanks.
Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
I think this is actually not such a bad suggestion for entry to mid-level IT and management folk... definitely worth testing the waters. A friend recently got his MBA and went to work for an American company in their Singapore office because the opportunities for him as an *american* were greater in the Singapore office than for the locals.
This situation will probably intensify in the coming months.
But retail? c'mon.. this is the largest retail market in the world. Wheres the guy gonna go that offers better than here?
My 2c? Get an MCSE... *ducks*
Even so, if it was ever challenged in court, the employer has to show that it is a bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ). However, since education is not a protected class, it would only matter if it was shown that the requirement led to a protected group being harmed.
Just move on to a different company. I won't put up with bullshit like broken application processes. To me, if the manager won't respond to the fact that their terminal is broken, he won't be decent to work for. I'd go to the company that is eager to take my application.
No, I will not work for your startup
ahem.... dumb down the resume dude!... You dont attach your masters thesis to your resume to get recruited into 7-11. Try paying some attention to what the job description is and only include experience relevant to the job. At this point in the game, the company does not care how fantastically talented you are. Telling them more than they need to know is at best, going to be distracting and at worst, cause them to drop you like a warm slurpy in July.
... then AFTER you have got the job, go look for a better one and switch.
You have to be computer literate to show people how to check themselves out at the register. You would need math and writing skills to be a cashier and Kroger has already laid those people off.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
In the retail store I worked at most recently (not a grocery store but hardgoods, so smaller quantities of higher-value merch), all the restocking stuff was automated based on the POS terminals. The store had a certain number of each item that it was supposed to have in stock, and the system also knew the quantity that they could be shipped in. When you sold enough of an item to equal the minimum reship quantity, it got added to your order for the next week. It just "magically" showed up in the box of stuff from FedEx, no human input was necessary.
Of course, in the real world, stuff gets lost, items get stolen, things get damaged and not reported back...generally things get messed up. Over time, a system like that would get desynchronized from the real world. So to combat this, the whole store had to be inventoried with UPC-reader guns every quarter. Theoretically it was supposed to be every other month, but in reality it was quarterly. This information got fed into the system and was used to "baseline" the store's quantities for reshipments, and also got used to figure out the amount of "shrink" (loss due to to theft, misplacement, etc.), which affected the manager's compensation.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
On a note to your first comment about jobs being harder to find these days.
Apparently you haven't heard that Mr. Bush & other liberal idiots have decided that stocking grocery shelves is one of those jobs "Most Americans Refuse to Do."
Next time you see someone touting their great flag of Mexico around, maybe you should think about the job market.
Wherever you go, there you are.
I recent was job hunting (for a psychiatric nursing position, by the way). There was quite a bit of talk about this... They are supposed to reject anything but the stated qualifications, and you must have ALL of them. A really good candidate with one qualification missing but lots of experience around it--should not be hired because it might discriminate against a protected class member--who had just the stated requirements. When I went to interviews, I was often handed a paper application anyway, seems they weren't allowed to use the online stuff except to invite you to do the paper one. Many recruiters, it seems, refuse to read resumes either. The whole thing sucks.