Will the Solve-the-Riddle Hiring Trend Affect IT?

An anonymous reader wonders: "It's probably harder to find a good developer, than for a developer to find a job. Seems to be a Google-riddle trend; rather than caring about references/diplomas/resumes, employers are using solve-this-and-you-have-a-job approach, not even caring about any usual information. Does that give decent graduates/talented unexperienced devs/homegrown coders a chance at the corporate job, or does it alienate potential matches?"

Comments

It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[eldavojohn]

From the Wikipedia entry:

Some 9,000 people were working at Bletchley Park at the height of the codebreaking efforts in January 1945, and over 10,000 worked there at some point during the war. A number were recruited for various intellectual achievements, whether they were chess champions, crossword experts, polyglots or great mathematicians. In one, now well known instance, the ability to solve The Daily Telegraph crossword in under 12 minutes was used as a recruitment test. The newspaper was asked to organise a crossword competition, after which each of the successful participants was contacted and asked if they would be prepared to undertake "a particular type of work as a contribution to the war effort". The competition itself was won by F H W Hawes of Dagenham who finished the crossword in less than eight minutes.

Solving a crossword in under 12 minutes was the entrance exam. That's interesting. I remember reading about this in Simon Singh's The Code Book in the Chapter on Alan Turing.

I think the ability to solve puzzles is tightly correlated with the skill set desired by IT. Because it takes an inquisitive and unrelenting mind to hit the hardest puzzles. If they like to do this for fun, surely they can do it well for a living.

Perhaps it's even more important than the education because of the way IT problems arise? I constantly tell my boss that I complete the crossword everyday at work without fear of repurcussions. I feel this keeps my mind nimble and prepares me for the day.

Isn't a college degree just a symbol that says, "Look, a whole bunch of people with good reputations threw a bunch of puzzles at me. Some were hard, some were easy, but overall I did well enough to pass through these puzzles. I retained some of the information and processes but that's not really important. What's important is the fact that I'm able to solve problems and paid to do it for four years."

So, in the end, I predict this will have little or no effect on the IT world at all. In fact, I think it's a better shift towards hiring the most qualified person. For financial reasons, I went to the University of Minnesota but people on the East coast imagine a backwoods podunk frozen tundra instead of an institution of learning when I mention it. If I'm a good puzzle solver, it shouldn't matter.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[networkBoy]

You're making too much of it.

The average network diagram is so convoluted that it can not be accurately put on paper. Having a mind that can actually grasp what's really going on is a rare thing. It's simply another puzzle to be solved.
-nB

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Aladrin]

You hit the nail on the head there, twice.

Real IT problems aren't as easy as the Sunday crossword. The problem being that different people are good at different puzzles. But if you're bad at problem solving, it'll show up in your lack of ability to solve puzzles.

Even our small network here at the office was ugly to diagram out. I was amazed at what a pain it was. And the guy who installed the IP-based phones could not do his job until he drew it out on the whiteboard. We ended up fixing his drawing, then revising it several times as we re-ordered the office a bit for convenience. But we had to draw EVERYTHING for him. With extensive labelling. And we also had to call things by the names he learned in school. It had to be 'FQDN' and not 'domain name' or he'd be lost. (He did eventually figure that one out and start correcting us when we just said 'domain name', though.) He's exactly the sort of 'tech' the puzzles would have made sure they never hired.

Relying solely upon the puzzles is as crazy as relying on any other single part of the interview process, though. Our office is extremely smooth, and most people get along with most everyone else. A year prior to my hire, the office was not like this. Most people hated coming to work, including the owners. They instituted a personality test during the interview process and things got better quickly.

Just 1 more thing to help weed out bad apples, that's all.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Monkelectric]

Yes and no.

Out here in Orange County, IGN Entertainment is infamous for their tests. I went in and nailed the interview. The next level to advance to was a test. The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*. They stated the test should take 3 - 4 hours. The specs were extremely vague and any attempt I made to get clarification was met with "do what you think is best".

They also mailed me the test late on a thursday evening, and were calling asking where it was the following monday morning. Problem being I was currently working 50/60 hours a week as well, and it just happened to be the weekend I was moving :(

I ask you then, how is anyone who currently *has* a job and perhaps a family supposed to complete a test like this? It seems like the most talented candidates would *HAVE* jobs and therefore find it much more difficult to complete the test. I rushed the program together because -- what choice did I have? It did not represent me well.

Looking back, the only appropriate response on my part would have been to say "Your requirements suck, and this is not a 3 to 4 hour job. Thanks but no thanks." The entire thing was a waste of their time, waste of my time. Maybe that was the test, to see if I'd tell them to fuck off.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[EastCoastSurfer]

These kinds of tests usually tell me I don't want to work at that sort of place. If they are going to expect an interview candidate to write a web server in a few hours, then what will they want when you work there? Expect to have demands like 'we need an entire application written this week, don't worry about design or figuring out what the application really needs to do, just write something.'

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

Just thinking aloud (as it were) here, but maybe they were looking for someone with a better attitude than yours. Maybe their test helped them avoid a hiring mistake they would have regretted at a later date. I don't know you, nor am I judging you, but you should consider that there's a distinct posibility that their test weeded out a candidate that their interviewing process didn't catch.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Gr8Apes]

Conceptually seems simple enough. Open a socket for listening, retrieve only strings, parse strings for GET/HEAD, return appropriate args. Since there were no requirements, and they refused to give you any after you asked, assume the simplest form and deliver that.

Now, it's been a while since I coded C/C++ apps, and I'm hazy on how hard it was to write socket code. I don't seem to recall it being super hard if you coded the naive case though.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Monkelectric]

You're right of course. When I went in for the interview I was extremely jazzed, maybe it was the 9 foot replica of the alien from Alien, or playing galaga on the arcade machines in the lobby. But by the time I had finished the test I had no desire to work there ... add that to the fact the pay was pretty average...

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Monkelectric]

Yea, but C++ is all about the details, and no external libraries meant you had to implement *EVERYTHING* ... no parsing tools (flex/yacc), no threading libraries, no file utilities. Not even simple things like path normalization.

In the "real" world you'd be a fool to implement any of those things.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[computational super]

Except for the part about "no external libraries of any kind..." Sockets are implemented by libc.so (or winsock.dll). So you have to code your own TCP/IP stack, you'd also have to write your own Ethernet driver, since that's implemented by a driver module library. You'd have to support all the different sorts of cards, too, since you don't know what hardware platform they're going to run it on.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

Solving a crossword in under 12 minutes was the entrance exam.

That's a great test... if you are hiring people to solve crosswords.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Qzukk]

'FQDN' and not 'domain name'

Well, they're not the same thing... (but the guy should have still figured out what you meant, even if he was being pedantic about it)

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Gr8Apes]

well, that becomes a trivial answer then - it's not a 3-4 hour job. Actually, writing C/C++ code that access system resources becomes non-trivial as soon as the platform in undefined. That's why Java took off. No #defines.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Monkelectric]

By no external libraries of any kind I meant, no 3rd party anything. Whatever could be reasonably expected to come with the compiler was fair game (sockets, threading symantecs, etc).

Still a hell of a lot of work.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that was the test, to see if I'd tell them to fuck off.

You betcha! They expected you to say, "Sorry, but I can't do that." They'd then ask you why not, and expect a cogent argument from you as to why the requirements were unrealistic.

It's a way to see not necessarily what you'd do to solve the problem, but how you'd attempt to do so - or, in this case, what you'd do to try to remove obstacles in your path. I'm not the smartest person on the planet, and I sniffed that out right away from your story.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[rlp]

'we need an entire application written this week, don't worry about design or figuring out what the application really needs to do, just write something.'

Wow, I used to work there too! Did you know Fred?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Metasquares]

Their requirements sounded ambiguous, but I imagine they would have allowed a platform library such as Winsock.

Otherwise, even the standard library that comes with the language doesn't qualify. Even something as trivial as a simple cout becomes very complicated in that case.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[_Swank]

or a potentially pretty good test if you're hiring people that will be manipulating and deriving words using patterns and partial information (cryptography). i'd suspect it probably correlates pretty well. certainly a good bit of crossword puzzle work these days is just being familiar with the standard clues (and why i hate them). but being able to think of 5 letter words with, potentially 'e' as the third letter and 'f as the fifth is good.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you should be able to bang out a GET/HEAD server in less than 2 hours. And requirements- what requirements? Don't you know how HTTP works??? Ever read RFCs for fun??? I'd say their screening did the job.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[jZnat]

The DN in FQDN stands for "domain name" anyhow...

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[eric76]

It would be more fun in assembly.

In one network course I took a few years ago, I was tired of writing code in C and C++ so I did some of the class projects in assembly instead.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[jZnat]

At least you didn't have to write a gazillion different ethernet drivers and a TCP/IP stack. Imagine if they wanted IPv4 and IPv6! Make that a 3-4 month project if you want anything remotely usable to come out of it.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Paracelcus]

It's funny in a sick kind of way that sombody who is completely unqualified (like myself) can solve the puzzle but others who would be good at it can't. I especially liked the little knock about being ideal for "young" applicants.

That me talking? I'll shut up!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Milican]

Yeah, I thought the same thing at first too. However, the problem was no outside libraries. I assumed from this no outside code, but maybe that was wrong. If I was in an interview like this and they only said no outside libraries I would definitely use any socket code I could get my hands on and then compile it into one big binary. From there I would implement the simplest web server possible.

JOhn

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[nine-times]

The next level to advance to was a test. The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*.

So you had to GET/HEAD over a weekend? Was your wife allowed to help you?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Moofie]

It sounds like they weren't even willing to answer intelligent questions about the specifications. If the spec is no good, the product will be no good.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[poot_rootbeer]

If they are going to expect an interview candidate to write a web server in a few hours, then what will they want when you work there?

Nail on the head.

Three to four hours might be enough time to do the very first steps in developing a tiny-web-server: reviewing the specification docs, compiling a few external resources to reference, maybe sketching out a rough high-level block diagram or two. It is not enough time to plan, write, debug, and package working code.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a great test... if you are hiring people to solve crosswords.

And asking for resumes is a great test... if you are hiring people to write resumes.

Alternatively, we could try recognising that sometimes it's possible to judge someone by observing them doing something that has nothing to do with the job you're actually hiring for.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[DaFrogBoy]

The other side of the coin in the situatin is to simply beleive what people say or written. I've seen some Computer Science graduates that I would never hire, and others that I would hire in a heartbeat based on what I've seen them be able to perform. The same would not necessarily be said if I had those same individuals describe to me their capabilities.

I have seen countless people who can "talk a good game", but when it comes right down to performing, they are unable to do so. In my opinion, performing speaks infinitely more than describing. I encourage problemsovling to be a portion of the interview process. A the very least, it will give an idea as to whether the individual is full of talk or can do what they say they can.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[elgatozorbas]

Solving a crossword in under 12 minutes was the entrance exam.

Of course this was an entrance exam for a _very_ specific line of work: code breaking. There you need to find patterns, complete partial words etc. It seems like a perfect match for the needs of the job.

I think the ability to solve puzzles is tightly correlated with the skill set desired by IT. Because it takes an inquisitive and unrelenting mind to hit the hardest puzzles. If they like to do this for fun, surely they can do it well for a living.

This goes for almost any job in which you have to solve problems, not only IT.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[griffjon]

Fred... Fred... He wrote that big thing with no documentation, right? Man, do you have his contact info?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Gr8Apes]

Ok, I read a couple of your other responses. Since you could use the platform threading libraries, this actually isn't that bad a problem. Their requirements didn't state much of anything, and no parsers just means working on the stream directly (still compiler included libs). You'd have come up with an extremely rudimentary server with a single socket servicing single requests with no safety net. That's about a 1-2 hour project with code comments. Then write what the short-comings are, and what's needed to expand on it.

That shows that A) you can deliver and B) you understand the bigger picture. It's a trade-off as to whether this approach is better than the descriptive answer that assumes what they want cannot be done. My impression from your description is that they were looking for something close to this approach, possibly flavored by my own perceptions of what I'd look for if I were to ask a candidate such a question.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[l0b0]

Yeah, I knew Fred. His Redundant XML Object Compiler was really cool!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Odabi]

I work there too.. Unfortunatly I'm in the military and I'm totally unable to tell Capt. Fred to fuck off... :( But if I look on the bright side I can be totally unproductive, be unable to give Capt. Fred his software by next week, and still know that I'll get a paycheck every other week for the next 3 years and 8 months. Being an Air Force programmer rocks at times.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[BobSutan]

Social and political science has shown that modern education, particularly college, is more to do with being able to deal with bureaucracies than it is with critical thinking skills. For example, companies can train any monkey to perform a task, but it takes a certian mental focus and set of social skills to work in a corporate culture.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[naoursla]

No external libraries? Did they expect you to write a TCP/IP stack? to get sockets? Or is that considered an internal library?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[GentlemanRogue]

Funny, I had a similar sort of scenario when I was applying for my current job as webmaster (technically a business analyst, but responsible for guidance and development of all things web-related, including internet, intranet, e-mail newsletters, etc...) for a fair-sized public transit agency. I was asked, as one of my interview tasks, to design a web site for the IS Department, and was given sixty minutes in front of a machine loaded with Dreamweaver to do so.

At the end of sixty minutes, I had nothing on the screen, just some basic storyboard sketches in paper and pencil, and I explained to the interviewers that something like this, to be done right, would require a lot more time and discussion. I thought I bombed the interview, but they wound up hiring me anyway (at a couple grand more than the entry level for the position, so I'm guessing they really wanted me).

I've since proven my worth, and discovered that I have more of a technical clue, and better business analyst skills, than the majority of folks here. I'm undoing year upon year of doing things the wrong way, but I figure it this way -- it's job security :-). What I'm trying to say is, maybe they weren't looking to see if you'd tell them to fuck off, but rather to think beyond what they're asking for and give them what they need - even if what they need is better understanding of what they're asking for. Had you said that, you might have been surprised at their response.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[sgt_doom]

It seems like the most talented candidates would *HAVE* jobs and therefore find it much more difficult to complete the test.

This is akin to stating that everything that can be invented has already been invented. Deborah Blum is the only Pulitzer Prize recipient that I've read in the past 20 years that actually was deserving of the prize. Generally speaking, when a private corporation requires a 3 to 4 hour test, they usually end up hiring their friends and relatives, for whatever reason.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[paitre]

Uuuh, actually, no. In this case, you're wrong.

I'm pretty rusty, but given access to my documentation library I could have probably hacked something up to handle just GET/HEAD in 2 or 3 hours.

Sockets really aren't that hard, people...

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont see the problem with 'domain name' vs 'FQDN' as a problem...
It's actually a critical first step with dealing with a problem.

Too many times I've been involved in a problem where no one took the time
to get everyone on the same page for terminology.

What does 'up' mean? the server is running? what about the application?
Is it ready for traffic yet (some things start up slowly) ?

What does 'down' mean? the application was 'disabled'?
or does 'down' mean it was enabled but does not appear to be working?

Another example:
Ask Joe IT was a requirement is and he will have _an_ answer.
Ask him what a _GOOD_ requirement is, and most folks I've met will flounder
(sometimes even me :-)

So when someone says it must be an AJAX application... ask WHY?
Is it really a requirement? or are they trying to dictate implementation?

Take the time to get everyone on the same page, and start speaking the terminology.

-E

BTW, FQDN and Domain Name are NOT the same.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Geoff]

Amen, brother.

I once had an interview where they handed me a few lines of abberent C code and asked what's the output. I answered that it didn't matter, because C code should never be written like that. Production C code should never look like an entry in the Obfuscated C contest.

That was the wrong answer, of course, and I didn't get an offer, but I figured a sysadmin job at a place that wanted me to be able to read obfuscated C entries probably wasn't the place I wanted to work anyway.

Geoff

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[drfireman]

Can anyone translate the difficulty of those crossword puzzles into NYT crossword equivalents? In my view, anyone who can reliably solve an entire NYT Saturday crossword completely and without errors in 12 minutes is a freak of nature. Anyone who can't do it for a Monday crossword (give or take the occasional botched square) is an idiot. Would I have had a chance at Bletchley park if I sometimes have trouble finishing (almost afraid to admit it) Thursdays? Does that make me hopeless for an IT career (I already have a career, so I'm just asking out of idle curiosity)?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[sesshomaru]

FRANK: When we talked, you only referred to him in the past tense. Do you remember that? Like he WAS an under-achiever, or he HAD very strong opinions. And I think the other one was: he WAS a very spirited kid.

[Frank slams his hand on the table.]

FRANK: Do you know something we don't?

ROE: Yes, I speak about Landon Bryce in the past tense, because there's a system in place, gentlemen, one that constantly evaluates our youths and our lives with no application of relativity. A 4.0 will succeed, a 2.5 will not. Below 750 on the SATs and certain doors close. A quality of person, sense of humor, heart, these are not on any applications. It's all about your numbers and although, yes, definitely Landon Bryce had it - that intangibility of soul that kept him in school, that could allow him to affect the quality of our lives for the better, that could lead people where they wished to go, Landon Bryce couldn't pass through the numbers. Numbers which tell a young person at 18 they're through. And unless there's some miracle of timing or events and greatness is thrust upon you, your life is over. Next? So, if I'm guilty of anything it's of giving in to this despicable system of numbers.

Millenium: A Room with No View

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[multimediavt]

That's a great test... if you are hiring people to solve crosswords.

Or, for their vocabulary, or sheer volume of useless facts in their heads with little relevance to applied problem solving. I didn't get the crossword thing either. There must be something deeper to crosswords that I've missed. Yeah, it's a puzzle, but it's a puzzle based on vocabulary and relevant experience with the specific crossword puzzle theme. I've done my fair share of crosswords, usually while doing laundry, but I don't get how completing a crossword in under twelve minutes would make you good at anything but EXTREMELY basic thematic or referential cryptography. I know some pretty mathematically challenged people, including some autistics (no kidding), that can whiz through a crossword puzzle but can't do simple algebra!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[glgraca]

If I were the boss, I'd use this test and pick the candidates that replied with a 'why would I write such a thing, if there are plenty of open source implementations?' or 'it would be a lot easier in Perl'.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[TrebleJunkie]

If it takes you 2-3 hours to GET/HEAD, you're cruising the wrong street corners! ;)

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

In the "real" world, I've seen people jump through so many hoops to use some pre-written poorly-defined-and-implemented library that it would have been easier to just write the damned code in the first place. That includes using C++ in the first place, when just using C would have been more appropriate.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[AuMatar]

Until you have to account for socket errors. Which are recoverable, which aren't (you don't want to kill your server because you got EAGAIN). The simple case of sockets is easy, the hard case is actually hard. Of course, thats why everyone in the world just writes a library to wrap the BSD socket interface. Its a great interface for the OS and a horrible one for the application.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[rthille]

No external libraries? Like including libc? Hell, I have to implement the syscall interface in C++? For what architecture/OS? WTF? I'd take that as a "we're idiots, you don't want to work here flag".

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Richard Steiner]

Yeah, but he wrote it in COBOL so it should be self-documenting... Right...?? :-)

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

Writing a simple web server is trivial. It doesn't even need to be multi-threaded, though it wouldn't be difficult to make it serve multiple connections at once with select.

Someone who can't write the code to parse out a GET request is pretty lame. Heck, you SHOULD be able to write it all in 3-4 hours using nothing but system calls, no section (3) library calls at all. That is, you get to use socket, select, open, read, write. Write your own damned string parsing routines, most of them are about 3-15 lines long. No, you don't get to use malloc; include (and check) reasonable limits on string lengths, simultaneous connections, etc, then you won't need to dynamically allocate memory. If you insist, create your own memory allocator, using anonymous mmap to get more raw memory, but it won't be worth it. Might impress them, though.

Suggestion: create an index file mapping URL to static file to return. Look up the URL, return the file. Manage the index file manually, with Perl, with shell scripts, whatever, they didn't tell you how to administer the server. If you're feeling slightly ambitious and want to impress them, include the ability to run programs with simple arguments passed in on the command line. Heck, you could even include POST and PUT support without too much trouble, but that might take more than 3-4 hours to get it all working just right, dealing with multiple processes and pipes that can block, etc, all while also dealing with multiple sockets, any of which can close or die unexpectedly, can be a bit tricky. I'd start off writing a generic process-handler library and integrate it with the socket handler so everything can be run off of one select (or poll) call. But, if you do that, come up with a better solution than CGI.

Specifications? All you need to do is implement a subset of HTTP. If you can't look up the specs to that, I certainly wouldn't hire you. Since they didn't give you any other requirements, I'd consider the job done when a standard web browser (your choice) can connect to it and follow links. It's not like you have to implement PHP or JSP or whatever for the thing! I think 3-4 hours is reasonable. If you don't, you obviously weren't the right person for the job.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Prof.Phreak]

If they are going to expect an interview candidate to write a web server in a few hours, then what will they want when you work there?

I'd imagine it wasn't an apache clone they were asking, but something similar to the sample mini-web server found on CPAN, or Networking chapter in all Java books (the basic request/response loop). That's a page of code, at best (in Perl, Java, etc.---it's a bit more involved in C++, but not -that- hard). It's a sort of thing any developer should be able to do (if they've ever coded networking stuff).

I seriously doubt they were expecting much from a few hours of coding.

Also, coding questions are -very- different from puzzle questions. Most puzzles have that `obviousness' about them, that if you don't see it right away, you won't see it until -much- later. Coding on the other hand lets you do what you're there to do...

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

Or they hire someone who enjoys programming and would find the minor challenge of writing a simple web server in 3-4 hours to be fun. In fact, I may just go write a simple web server in 3-4 hours right now, just for the fun of it.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[ozbird]

Solving a crossword in under 12 minutes was the entrance exam.

I assume it was solving a cryptic crossword in under 12 minutes.

English cryptic crosswords are notoriously difficult, at least in part because of their assumed local knowledge (e.g. "Mayfair" stands for the two letters "WI".) I've seen one where virtually all of the clues referenced the answer of others - until you solve the key clues, you can't even start! Another had no numbers - you have to solve all of the clues first, then fit them together jigsaw style... Australian cryptics are much easier.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

I constantly tell my boss that I complete the crossword everyday at work without fear of repurcussions. I feel this keeps my mind nimble and prepares me for the day.

It obviously improves your spelling, too!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

Of course it was the wrong answer. The ability to analyze a bit of C code (whether or not you think it's "abberent") is an important skill, when determining what a piece of code IS doing as opposed to what it APPEARS to be doing or is DOCUMENTED as doing.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Medievalist]

he test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*. They stated the test should take 3 - 4 hours. The specs were extremely vague and any attempt I made to get clarification was met with "do what you think is best".

They also mailed me the test late on a thursday evening, and were calling asking where it was the following monday morning.

If I gave that test, I'd be expecting you to pull the answer out of Google.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[IamTheRealMike]

They were probably checking that you can read C, and maybe something else (eg understanding the stack). Sysadmins are often expected to know some programming, it's not all that uncommon.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[hondo77]

Oh, that Fred. Try fred@yahoo-inc.com.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

In the recent movie "Wordplay" about the crossword puzzle community (in particular the NY Times crossword), it was mentioned that the winners of the American crossword puzzle championships are invariably IT people or musicians. So the correlation has been demonstrated empirically.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmm.... shallow and pedantic!!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Opie812]

Fred... Fred... He wrote that big thing with no documentation, right?

Nope, that was me. I'm writing another one inbetween visits to slashdot!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[lowrydr310]

The solution is simple. Just do a google search for the code that you're looking for. There are plenty of web servers readily available, why should you have to write them another one?

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[swillden]

The specs were extremely vague and any attempt I made to get clarification was met with "do what you think is best".

I like that. I think I'll use that technique in the future. Candidates who don't ask for clarification will lose points, because we need devs who will ask questions when faced with incorrect or incomplete requirements. Candidates who can't deal with being told "do what you think is best" will lose points, because we need devs who can take the initiative and define their own solutions when appropriate. That's a damn good idea for an interview test.

As for the task itself, I think it's also a good choice. The problem is actually pretty well-defined by the HTTP specifications, though candidates will obviously have to decide which features of the specs are important. The problem is a good one for testing ability to write secure code, too.

What I find really interesting is the 3-4 hour estimate, coupled with several days to get it done. The ideal candidate should take the 3-4 hour estimate as a guideline to help scope the solution. Obviously, in that period of time you can only create a fairly minimal web server. A candidate who spends a great deal more time and makes something elaborate might lose some points for overengineering. Or maybe not; followup questioning would be important, as would the quality of the result. A candidate who tries to create something more elaborate that doesn't work would basically be disqualified.

Above all, though, if I were to give this test I'd pay attention to the candidate's attitude about it. Top candidates would probably fall into one of two camps: intrigued by the challenge and bored by the triviality, depending primarily on whether or not they'd ever actually tried to implement a simple web server (I have, and it's not hard).

Looking back, the only appropriate response on my part would have been to say "Your requirements suck, and this is not a 3 to 4 hour job. Thanks but no thanks."

That would not have been the response of a top candidate, though you'd get some points for honesty, particularly if you were willing to give it another go after clarification.

Maybe that was the test, to see if I'd tell them to fuck off.

That would be an excellent outcome, actually. Keep in mind that the primary purpose of the interview process, from the interviewer's point of view, is to identify unsuitable candidates and send them on their way.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[drew]

Isn't a college degree just a symbol that says, "Look, a whole bunch of people with good reputations threw a bunch of puzzles at me. Some were hard, some were easy, but overall I did well enough to pass through these puzzles. I retained some of the information and processes but that's not really important. What's important is the fact that I'm able to solve problems and paid to do it for four years."

After having gone, and seeing the caliber of many of the people who graduated with (or ahead of) me, I'm pretty sure that a college degree is more along the lines of a symbol that says "I was able to jump through hoops for four (or more) years without giving up and declaring it a waste of time".

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people get very good college educations (I like to think that I was one of them, even if my grades don't necessarily speak to that fact) but a diploma is certainly not evidence of one.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[theonetruekeebler]

I suspect that crossword-solving techniques might apply very closely. As an example, you know a U-boat just sent a message about a place whose name is eight letters, the last letter is an P and the fourth letter is either probably a G or an M. Also the seas are R _ _ G H. Once you've figured out what those two letter are, maybe they will offer cues about what other letters are, or best of all, what they rotor and plugboard settings were.

The example is not historically accurate and glosses over zillions of details, but I think the principles apply.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[j35ter]

Ummm, no one said it has to be an embedded server!
You could actually run the server under (x)inetd...should make this a 2 hour job of just parsing and handling file requests. The socket stuff should be obsolete in that case.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[geekoid]

If only crossword puzzles required some kind of puzzle to solve, instead of obscure knowledge.

Yes, it's a knowledge puzzle and has nothing to do with solving analytical puzzles.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Shadowlore]

With extensive labelling. And we also had to call things by the names he learned in school. It had to be 'FQDN' and not 'domain name' or he'd be lost. (He did eventually figure that one out and start correcting us when we just said 'domain name', though.)

So he learned that FQDN != "domain name" and started correcting you guys when you got it wrong? Good on him!

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[geekoid]

since a decent puzzle needs to have it's terms clearly defined, he may have done well.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Those things are in the kernel, which isn't a library at all.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[spectral]

I already did it (and didn't wuss out and go the inetd route), handles GET, HEAD... HTTP/1.0 only, pulls files from a disk (hardcoded the directory).. if the webserver proc could fopen it and fread it, it went out over the wire. Security wasn't there, no POST or PUT or DAV stuff, obviously. Mostly C style with a bit of C++ when it was pleasant (using strings as generic buffers to dump stuff in temporarily).. took 1.5 hours, with about 30 minutes of distraction (people kept coming over and talking to me about my job. Pfft.. I'm browsing slashdot people, leave me alone.)

It was good timing too, as I was about to write a simple client/server for a work related project. Getting the practice on this was pleasant.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[maop]

No you are wrong. A crossword puzzle is the worst type of puzzle for a IT person to show their puzzle solving skill. A crossword puzzle consists of vague questions with meanings that are highly influenced by linguistic and cultural nuances of the puzzle creator. The reliance on ambiguity is antithetical to testing the logic skills of a person. Any IT person should be annoyed (like blinking text annoyance) by the this kind of vagueness in a puzzle.

A puzzle like sudoku is much more appropriate to test logic skills. It requires logic and memory to be able to complete it quickly. Sure you can complete it in a long time using simple techniques but if you are clever and have good short term memory then you can complete it more quickly. I do several puzzles a day and it is way more satisfying than crosswords. It's even a little addicting.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[j.leidner]

> Yea, but C++ is all about the details, and no external libraries meant you had to implement > *EVERYTHING* ... no parsing tools (flex/yacc), no threading libraries, no file utilities. > Not even simple things like path normalization. > In the "real" world you'd be a fool to implement any of those things. #include

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[asylumx]

I don't know, I wrote an HTTP webserver in java that was less than 50 lines including blank lines in about the same amount of time for my college networking class.... and a client too.... using only the basic java (sun) libraries.

I'm not saying this to tote my skills... actually I barely knew java and was still able to do this. I was a C++ student at the time but the prof preferred Java. I'm just trying to say that it doesn't sound entirely unreasonable.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[TekPolitik]

Heck, you SHOULD be able to write it all in 3-4 hours using nothing but system calls, no section (3) library calls at all.

Of course unless you're using inline assembly to make those system calls, there's still a library in between you and the kernel. If somebody says "no libraries of any kind", I take them at their word.

However they haven't said you can't assume you're launched by inetd. If it's just GET and HEAD, you're just up for parsing the "GET" request, and should be able to do it with only 5 system calls - read, write, stat, open, exit. I'd throw out all the incoming headers, check the incoming URL to make sure it has a leading '/' and no '/.', and just dump whatever file is there as the output or a stock error if there is none. The only headers output would be Content-Type ("text/html") and Content-Length. This would be possible in much less than 3-4 hours. Hell, you don't even need the C startup code - just make your main the program entry point.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[alienw]

Uhh... It is a 3-4 hour job, probably less if you are any good. I remember making something like that in less than two hours in a comp sci class. In fact, this is the perfect job interview question because it directly tests your ability to do the job. I wouldn't say you are a talented candidate if you couldn't even solve a fairly trivial programming assignment given 4 days to do it, AND you didn't mention to the recruiter that you wouldn't be able to do anything that weekend due to your schedule. Generally, people ask about the recruiting process in detail and make plans ahead of time. It's called professionalism.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[mibus]

The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind

No libc or anything??

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Zerbs]

Unfortunately most places that have given me some sort of tech-test by giving problems to solve do give poor problems. I had a miserable 4 hour interview/problem solving session at a software company called PreEmptive that consisted of separate technical interview and interview with a manager which led me to believe they had conflicting ideas of what skills and talents the candidate should have, followed by a test consisting of a misworded logic problem, a question on how to do something that shouldn't have ever been done to begin with, and a group of questions about a poorly designed database schema.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

The words used by the poster were "no external libraries of any kind", not "no libraries of any kind". All that stuff in the standard C/C++ libraries is PART OF THE LANGUAGE, you don't have to care whether it is implemented as libraries or compiled into your program with in-lining, it isn't an "external library". Your code might be running in a C byte-code interpreter, with all of the standard routines implemented inside the interpreter. Being pig-headed literal in a job interview is no way to impress them with your ability to get things done. Communication skills are important!

The code emitted by a C compiler is going to assume at least a FEW things that the entry stub code has to set up, so you can't really just make main your program entry point, in most cases. Depends on the OS environment, of course.

Using inetd is a good solution, eliminates the need to do any of your own socket programming. I'd do that, then write another version that does it without inetd, but is limited to one connection at a time; then go ahead and modify THAT to do a select-based dispatcher to handle multiple connections; then integrate in the ability to run scripts in separate processes, managing the pipes and sockets and connections all through that one select. Submit all four versions, with the original inetd-based one mostly implemented as a library that is used by all 4 versions. If you end up with a nice generic library to handle processes, pipes, sockets and connections as well, so much the better.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[ivan256]

I think the ability to solve puzzles is tightly correlated with the skill set desired by IT.

I think that given your example, and this statement that you are under some mistaken impression that IT work and software development work are the same thing. The popular usage clearly indicates that IT workers are the people who use the technology developed by the engineers and programmers.

Between the salary differences, the skillset differences, and the vast chasm between the types of tasks done by each group, you do both of those groups a disservice by lumping them together under 'IT'.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[TekPolitik]

The words used by the poster were "no external libraries of any kind", not "no libraries of any kind". All that stuff in the standard C/C++ libraries is PART OF THE LANGUAGE

I take "of any kind" to mean not even standard libraries. I take "external" to mean libraries not written as part of this exercise, so that you can write functionality that might otherwise have been found in a library. Since C++ can compile code that might otherwise look like C there's no need to use C++ language features, but many C++ language features do not require any support from the initialisation code. Your interpretation focuses on the word "external", but leaves "of any kind" otiose. The use of the phrase "of any kind" appears to be a deliberate choice and an interpretation that gives those words some useful meaning should be preferred.

Part of the point of the question may have been to determine if the candidate understands that some of these things that look like basic language features are actually libraries (to see if they are the sort of people who go a little deeper than basic text book knowledge). You would be surprised how many C programmers don't know that "printf" involves a library call. This can be worse with novice C++ programmers since "new" is a library call unless you have written your own implementation of new and delete, but it looks like standard syntax.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[SnotBob]

That's a piece of cake. I'd just burn a CD of the Slackware Linux ISO, FedEx it to them, and tell them I outsourced it.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[VirusEqualsVeryYes]

Expect to have demands like 'we need an entire application written this week, don't worry about design or figuring out what the application really needs to do, just write something.'

You mean random experimentation? Having a bunch of people write something, then taking the most interesting ideas and developing them into something usable, then into something for general consumption? Like R&D, or Google Labs?

Sounds awesome. Can I have the job you turned down? :)

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

A more obvious meaning for their request is that they want you to write a simple web server without pulling in a bunch of libraries already written that implement a web server so that you can write "HTTPserver server = new HTTPserver(localhost, "http"); return server.process("/usr/local/http");" and claim you know how to implement a webserver in C++. "of any kind" simply means that they include string parsing libraries, socket handling libraries, error logging libraries, or anything else. "external" is much more the relevant phrase, and OBVIOUSLY means "not part of the actual implementation of the C/C++ compiler suite". So yes, "new", "malloc", "printf" would be allowed. "3-4 hours" is also a pretty big clue as well - since that's a reasonable estimate of the time it would take to write something like that using only the language-standard facilities.

Saying "well, you SAID no external libraries of ANY KIND, so I took that to mean whatever would get me out of having to do it" certainly wouldn't impress me, unless you then went on to implement your own C compiler, operating system, Ethernet drives, TCP/IP services, wrote the web server for that, installed the whole thing as a boot block and brought it up by booting it straight from the BIOS. That would probably take a bit more than 3-4 hours, though, so it probably isn't what they meant.

Your approach is basically saying "hahaha, you guys suck, you don't even know what's implemented as libraries in a C++ program, so I'm going to show you up by saying it can't be done". You've shown that you'd be very difficult to work with.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Anonymous Coward]

You're dumb.

You can code a fairly complete web server using only calls from libc. And yeah, it doesn't take very long. If you feel like you need to use "threading libraries" to do it, you're doubly dumb.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[TekPolitik]

A more obvious meaning for their request is...

Only to somebody who's not a low-level kind of person. My interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

unless you then went on to implement your own C compiler, operating system, Ethernet drives...

That's just silly, none of these things would be correctly - or even casually - described as "libraries". You're really going to extremes to try to support your claim that your interpretation is the only possible one.

"3-4 hours" is also a pretty big clue as well

Not really - a competent C++ programmer with basic knowledge of the Linux system calls interface, using GNU C++ as the compiler could easily produce a basic web server that used no libraries whatsoever (even standard libraries) in this time.

Your approach is basically saying "hahaha, you guys suck, you don't even know what's implemented as libraries in a C++ program, so I'm going to show you up by saying it can't be done"

Hardly, since I'm saying it can be done within the limitations as I interpret them, and somebody who can do this within those limitation is going to be far more valuable than somebody who can't.

You've shown that you'd be very difficult to work with.

On the contrary, it is you who has shown this about yourself. One of the most difficult kinds of people to have on a team is somebody who cannot accept the possibility of somebody else disagreeing with them without either being definitively wrong. Such people can screw up a project like you would not believe. They usually insist on not using classes written by other people, preferring to write their own because the others are done the "wrong" way, they won't take feedback from management, let alone their peers, and will then really foul up their own contributions. The best thing to do with such people is fire them as soon as possible, and it is my policy to do so - it keeps the rest of the team much happier.

It is well known that natural language is imprecise and often susceptible to more than one meaning - this is one of the greatest problems that courts of law have to deal with. I prefer my interpretation. You prefer yours. That does not make either one necessarily the only valid interpretation.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[rammer]

Going off the other end is not a good thing either.
You then have gazillion small pieces of code that do much of the same thing.
Debugging and maintaining that is a nightmare.

What you need (as you implied) is a good, extensible, reusable spec and good, extensible, reusable code to match.

You can write C++ that looks like C. I do. Should'nt but do.
Language selection is always tricky. It depends on so many variables.
Not the least of which is what the developer is comfortable with.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

Sorry, I was merging in someone else's thread where they were saying that since they couldn't use even the standard libraries (like malloc, or the wrapper interfaces to system calls), the job obviously couldn't be done and that's what they'd tell them. You, on the other hand, would write your own equivalent to crt1.o, your own wrappers to read/write/close/exit (exit per se isn't needed in the program, but the run-time setup/exit code would still need to use the exit system call), all because you discount the meaning of "external library", and instead seem to think that "of any kind" trumps it. Presumably you're going to copy in all the constants out of the kernel that you'll need, as well, since using the standard system include files would seem to fall under "using" that library.

I don't disagree that one can write a simple web server in 3-4 hours, even if you're only going to use read/write/open/close/exit (and, if not using inetd, socket, bind, listen, accept, and either fork or select if you want to handle multiple connections), maybe a few others like stat, setsockopt, dup, pipe, and write all of your own string manipulation routines. But unless the position includes working with implementing glibc, a compiler, the operating system, an interpreter run-time or something at that level, the interpretation of "no external libraries" to include the standard C/C++ libraries is rather extreme. It's possible that what they wanted was what you think, it's possible that what they wanted was to be told "your specifications are inadequate, your requirements are untenable, I can't do the job without more information". The original poster said "the specs were extremely vague", but didn't indicate if the requirement "no external libraries of any kind" was explained in more detail. Given NO other information, you have to make a reasonable guess as to what they meant. I think that thinking they meant you couldn't use anything in crt/libc/libstdc++ is going way overboard. When you produce a program that has all your own system-call wrappers, is called from inetd, and has minimal functionality, and I produce in the same time something that properly uses the standard system library routines, is more efficient (because I didn't use inetd), maybe has more features (I added in the ability to run programs/scripts), which one do you think is going to show a more productive programmer?

BTW, I wasn't saying that your interpretation of the requirements meant you'd have to write your own C compiler, but certainly a reasonable interpretation of "external library", given your interpretation of it, includes most of the code in an operating system - after all, what's a TCP stack but a standard set of routines, with a standard calling interface, that performs a well-defined task. Just because it uses a different calling mechanism doesn't mean it isn't a library. If the socket system call isn't a library call, then characterizing a wrapper routine as a library routine would also be wrong, especially as it wouldn't even be implemented that way on all systems. What I was saying was that if you're going to start throwing stuff away, why stop there, why not go whole hog and implement everything but the BIOS? That'll really show them what you can do. As I said, I'D be impressed, even if it turned out that you were completely misinterpreting the requirements.

If they wanted to know if you knew the difference between calls (explicit or implicit) to standard libraries, what generates those calls, how C++ dynamic overloading works, how calls to the operating system work, what kind of things get in-lined, I'd think they'd just ask you, not see how you interpret "no external libraries of any kind". If they wanted to see if you could write a fairly small program that deals with sockets, strings, file I/O, maybe multiple processes, multiplexing, pipes, and follow a relatively simple well-known specification without a lot of hand-holding, they'd ask you to write a simple web server in 3-4 hours, using only the standard librari

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[drsquare]

In the "real" world you'd be a fool to implement any of those things.

Then you'd better phone the army up and tell them not to make recruits do pressups, as those are no use in the battlefield.

Perhaps they have these interview tests to filter out the whiners who are too arrogant to prove their skills.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Milican]

Good point!

JOhn

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Slashdot Parent]

The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*.

Talk about your unrealistic project. During code reviews, I'll reject any code that has reimplemented something from the JDK or framework. 99% of the time it's implemented wrong, and 100% of the time it's hard to maintain.

Did they seriously think that you were going to implement stdio.h and sys/socket.h in 4 hours? Do they really want to encourage the hiring of developers whose first instinct is to reinvent the wheel?

Some companies are just so incredibly stupid.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[Nevyn]

Writing a simple web server is trivial. It doesn't even need to be multi-threaded, though it wouldn't be difficult to make it serve multiple connections at once with select.

Speakling as someone who has written a web server (and guarantees that it's secure) ... First, there is no such thing as a "simple web server". Even if you limit yourself to HTTP/1.0 and don't parse any headers, it's not a 3-4 hour problem. And you really need to parse at least Host: to even think about calling it a real webserver, and not just worthless junk.

Also, none of the good web servers are multi-threaded (RHCA doesn't really qualify as multi-threaded, as there are no processes in kernel land). So "doesn't even need" is very misleading IMNSHO.

Someone who can't write the code to parse out a GET request is pretty lame.

I assume you have this idea of what HTTP is that bears no resemblance to reality. Parsing the GET line well is non-trivial, parsing the GET line only doesn't qualify as a web server IMO.

Yes, I've seen something that firefox can talk to which is 1 line of C (roughly 12 if you put a return after each function call). While it's "cute" that's not a real webserver.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[sgt_doom]

So you like handing out free cognitive labor, huh???? Maybe that'll convince them to bring all those IT jobs back from the cheaper labor markets.....

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[griffjon]

No, the spec was for cobol, but he chose to write it in Intercal.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[tricorn]

First, this was presented as a programming exercise, not producing something useful. Regardless, a simple web server can be just that, one that doles out static pages, maybe has the capability of executing external processes, with or without POST. It doesn't have to do multi-hosting. It doesn't have to support in-process scripting (although adding Tcl would be trivial). Using multi-threading to allow multiple connections is slightly easier than using select, and certainly less resource intensive than using fork (or inetd, which is practically the same thing). That "all the good web servers don't use it" is not an argument against using multi-threading.

It is also not difficult to make it secure, not leak memory, and not crash. Sometimes tedious, but not difficult.

Parsing HTTP headers is not rocket science. The link you gave is a good one, but using the specs is all you need to implement a correct implementation. Now, what you DO with the parsed headers is another matter, but fortunately HTTP/1.0 is fairly generous in not requiring you to implement much. When I said that someone who can't parse a GET request is pretty lame, I didn't mean that all they need to do is look for GET, one space, a bunch of non-space characters, one space, "HTTP/???", and a CRLF and they're done. What I meant was that parsing it doesn't require you to use some HTTP library because doing it yourself is just oh too difficult for mere mortals.

And yes, it can be done in 3-4 hours. Much shorter if the only requirement is that it work with one or a few specific browsers that don't send in deliberately weird cases of legal-but-ridiculous HTTP headers.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[epee1221]

Expect to have demands like 'we need an entire application written this week, don't worry about design or figuring out what the application really needs to do, just write something.'

You mean random experimentation? Having a bunch of people write something, then taking the most interesting ideas and developing them into something usable, then into something for general consumption? Like R&D, or Google Labs?

I highly doubt that that's what management had in mind.

Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park

[drgonzo59]

There is nothing wrong about relying puzzles if the company wants people to solve sudoku, play chess, or quickly find square roots of numbers in their head every day and don't really care about interpersonal skills, maturity, communication and other qualities. In other words the company will just get what it wants (even though it might not need what it wants!).

The question is therefore why would you want to work for that company, when you might end up working with a bunch of antisocial monkeys that can only quickly solve small puzzles in their head and that's about it? You are interviewing the company as much as they interview you, so if they just say here solve the 'crossword' and you are hired without looking at your references, GPA, other work or even talking to you, it would probably be a good time to politely thank them for the opportunity and move on to the next interview...

Oldest riddle of all...

[Presidential]

"Where shall we have lunch?"

--Douglas Adams

Re:Oldest riddle of all...

[Tweekster]

The answer is always chinese...

Re:Oldest riddle of all...

[Larry Lightbulb]

Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.

Re:Oldest riddle of all...

[lessthan0]

Of course, you don't need to solve the oldest riddle of all to perform the oldest profession of all.

Websense

[gEvil (beta)]

Hmm. Websense blocks proveyourworth.net because it falls in the 'sex' category. Now I'm really curious about what this riddle is...

Re:Websense

[grub]

It's just the goatse pic with "How?" printed below it.

Re:Websense

[Lazbien]

Well, one could assume that if they are trying to hire developers with a riddle, it would be sex based. If they can answer it, truly they are l33t.

Re:Websense

[AKAImBatman]

It's probably the domain name. I'm guessing that your blocking software looks for intentional "sex" misspellings. So it thinks that ProVeyourWorth.com is an intentional misspelling of ProVoyeurWorth.com.

Re:Websense

[MustardMan]

well yeah, they'd want the riddle to be something a developer has no previous experience with.

Re:Websense

[Wow-AnotherNick]

I'd think the question would be "Why?"

Re:Websense

[poodlehat]

Maybe the riddle is how to get around Websense. :D

Re:Websense

[ellem]

You can't even get around websense?

I am so NOT hiring you :)

Re:Websense

[smoker2]

Actually, the "H" and "W" are on either side .....

Re:Websense

[archeopterix]

Hmm. Websense blocks proveyourworth.net because it falls in the 'sex' category. Now I'm really curious about what this riddle is...

It has an anagram of voyeur in the middle. Hm... I wonder what kind of job would solving this riddle get me :-)

Re:Websense

[MK_CSGuy]

Amusing.
More amusing when noticing your sig: "What about the good things Osama did?"

Re:Websense

[StikyPad]

There's a difference between can't and won't. ;)

Re:Websense

[FecesFlingingRhesus]

The answer is a=f (0)

I've used them

[Cybert4]

Well, I tried to do riddles when I was hiring at a technology company. I liked to do mathematical ones that couldn't show any cultural bias. For example, deriving the quadratic formula. Or proving that the square root of two is irrational.

I like this. It's a lot better than the usual asking for "ten years in a five year old language". Cool trick too. I wonder how many people won't even get to the "view source" option!

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

By the sounds of it you did show a cultural bias - towards people with a background in pure mathematics. If the work required that, then it's fair enough, but it shows next to nothing about problem-solving abilities. I dislike this - and not just because I didn't study pure maths to any particularly high level.

Re:I've used them

[RingDev]

While I appreciate the unforgiving rock solid logic that is math, asking someone who has been out of math based education for a number of years to prove the irrationality of sqrt(2) is a bit of a stretch.

I'd much rather go with a series of standardized logic questions (pattern recognition, basic math story problems, etc...) and one question buried in the test that is intentionally vague or poorly worded. Because well defined problems are easy, it's the problems that are not well defined that really test us in IT. Seeing how a potential employee handles themselves in a confusing situation is just as critical as how they handle themselves in a well defined situation. I would stay away from anything that depends on a complex understanding of any given topic, because at this point, we're not looking for someone who has the quadratic formula memorized, we're looking at someone who can look at a situation and pull values from that situation to plug into a formula.

-Rick

Re:I've used them

[Surt]

Let's see. I've had no math for 10ish years. Suppose that the sqrt(2) were rational. So it can be expressed as (a/b) with a,b integer and a^2/b^2 = 2. So a^2 = 2*b^2. Suppose b is odd, then b^2 is odd, and 2*b^2 has a decomposition containing only one two, which cannot be the square of an integer as we claimed, as the square of any integer containing a 2 in its decomposition will have an even number of twos in its square.
Suppose b is even. Then the square of b contains an even number of 2's in its decomposition, and 2*b^2 contains an odd number of 2's in the decomposition, which poses the same problem for a.

Wooo ... 4 minutes. I guess I get the job, but I don't think I want it.

Re:I've used them

[DaveV1.0]

A background in pure mathematics has nothing to do with "culture". Asking a pure mathematics question does not show a "cultural bias". You obviously have no idea what a "cultural bias" is.

An example of a cultural bias quiz would be something on the order of "Tim played a par 65 course. During his round, he had 4 birdies and 2 eagles. What was his final score?"

Golf is a game more likely to be played by caucasians and asians, the upper middle class and above, and suburbanites. Without an explanation of the rules of golf, the above question would be a good way to weed out hispanics, blacks, lower middle class and below, people who live in the inner city, and people who grew up in rural areas.

THAT is cultural bias.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

While I appreciate the unforgiving rock solid logic that is math, asking someone who has been out of math based education for a number of years to prove the irrationality of sqrt(2) is a bit of a stretch.

It's a high school level proof. It's taught to fourteen year old children. It's a result that's been known for over 2,500 years.

If you're hiring for university graduate level work (computer programming), why even consider someone who can't think at a grade nine level?

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

You had a bias towards people with a pure math background. What's worse, it was probably just a memory excercise. My first reaction was "I know it's a proof by contradiction, and it involves dividing."

Re:I've used them

[RingDev]

If the goal of the question is to universally test someones logic ability it would be better to focus on questions that assume an 8th grade education level. Or if the goal of the question is to test someones ability of a specific talent, then it should focus on that talent.

If I, as a job applicant, took an entrance exam for an employer and came across a large number of non-basic math questions, I would assume that the job entailed a large amount of math.
If the test contains lots of "Which design pattern should be used?" questions, relating to different code snippets and outcome goals, I would assume that the job requires a lot of software architecture.
If the test had numerous pattern recognition questions (visual and numeric 'which comes next') and problem solving questions (Jim has twice the apples as Jane...) I would assume that it is just a standard logic test.

Like you, I may be able to struggle through that question (although probably not in 4 minutes!) trying to recall classes from 10+ years ago, but even if I did, like you, I would not be real interested in the job.

-Rick

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

Perhaps you ought to consult a dictionary before telling me that I have no idea what I'm talking about:

USAGE NOTE
The application of the term culture to the collective attitudes and behavior of corporations arose in business jargon during the late 1980s and early 1990s. Unlike many locutions that emerge in business jargon, it spread to popular use in newspapers and magazines. Few Usage Panelists object to it. Over 80 percent of Panelists accept the sentence The new management style is a reversal of GE's traditional corporate culture, in which virtually everything the company does is measured in some form and filed away somewhere.
  Ever since C.P. Snow wrote of the gap between "the two cultures" (the humanities and science) in the 1950s, the notion that culture can refer to smaller segments of society has seemed implicit.

The arts-science cultural divide (and subdivisions within each of those) is significant, and the sort of puzzle presented by the original poster is heavily slanted towards a specific subcategory of people on the 'science' side of the divide. There are plenty of good puzzles of this nature that check an ability for rational thinking that doesn't require particular knowledge on either side.

The distinction you attempt to draw isn't one that exists - in just the same way that your example requires the knowledge of the meaning of the words 'birdie' and 'eagle', the original examples require understanding of terminology ('quadratic formula' and 'irrational') as well as techniques specific to a particular area of education. They also skew against many of the same social groups as your golfing example.

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

That's even worse, then. It's not a test of the ability to think, it's a test of the ability to remember something you were taught at the age of 14.

Re:I've used them

[Cybert4]

You did poorly in math, didn't you? "Irrational" is a lot different from "touchdown", or "birdie". I can explain it if needed.

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

No, I did pretty well, thanks, though I'm starting to see why you have a problem with identifying logic problems.

Re:I've used them

[Mark of THE CITY]

couldn't show any cultural bias

I understanding what you are getting at; however, consider that a culture that values math will have more successful math-puzzle solvers than a culture that does not.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know. I do, however, know for a fact that I wouldn't even consider someone whose comprehension is so poor that he cannot tell the difference between something children are taught at grade 9, and something that only requires grade-9-level thinking skills to derive from first principles.

Since you seem to be a bit dim, I'll state explicitly that this means you.

Re:I've used them

[n00854180t]

Exactly. You could have a gem of a software developer on your hands, a titan of problem solving, and you ask him to remember something specific from 10+ years ago. The end result is you get candidates that are gods of rote memorization, but couldn't solve their way out of a logic paper bag.

Re:I've used them

[DaveV1.0]

Perhaps you should learn to use a dictionary. A usage note is not part of a definition.
Here let me give you an actual definition of the word "culture":

1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
3. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
4. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Now, lets talk about "cultural bias":

Cultural bias is interpreting and judging phenomena in terms particular to one's own culture. This is a danger in any field of knowledge that claims objectivity and universality, such as philosophy and the natural sciences. The problem of cultural bias is central to social and human sciences, such as economics, psychology, anthropology and sociology, which have had to develop methods and theories to compensate for or eliminate cultural bias.

Cultural bias occurs when people of a culture make assumptions about conventions, including conventions of language, notation, proof and evidence. They can then mistake these assumptions for laws of logic or nature.

Whether or not one knows algebra is not based on culture, but rather on education. Mathematics is the same all over the world. There is no cultural interpretation of mathematical equation or formula. If one does not know how to solve an algebra problem, then one does not know how to solve a algebra problem. That is an educational deficiency and not a "cultural thing". You as well argue requiring someone to spell properly is culturally biased.

Trying to disguise ignorance as a cultural phenomenon is dishonest.

Re:I've used them

[RPGonAS400]

I wish I could find someone like you who did use them!

I have sent out loads of resumes and had a few interviews. I would do way better on either a math based test or a crossword. Anything to get my foot in the door.

I also code great and get along with people

I think my resume skills suck, though.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

It's taught to fourteen year old children.

Yes, I recall being taught that sqrt(2) is irrational.

It's a high school level proof.

Is that so? Let's see you prove it using only arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra. I'll accept that some schools do offer calculus classes, so I'll let you use basic calculus too.

As someone else proved it already, looking at their proof there's a world of difference being able to say that "if b is odd, then 2*b^2 only contains one 2 in its decomposition and therefore cannot be the square of an integer." and being able to prove that odd numbers cannot be a square of an integer.

Re:I've used them

[rantingkitten]

Were I your manager I would have given you a very stern talking-to for that math nonsense. Math education has virtually nothing to do with logic -- you are, in school, required to memorize formulas, and then plug in values when asked. You don't need to know the first thing about what you're actually doing, why any of it works, how these formulas were derived, or anything else, so long as you can dance on cue.

You're asking people to come out of that kind of system, and then never use any of it for ten years, and be able to derive mathematical formulas that most people didn't understand or care about even when they were being exposed to it on a daily basis. Are you insane or just sadistic?

And don't bother with the "it's just logic" crap. It seems like that to people who are good at math, but to those who are not, it is anything but logical -- and I believe it was Feynman himself who said something about how much of it made no real sense and merely had to be accepted. Frankly I have never seen a very convincing argument for the statement that learning math teaches logic, but it's so oft-repeated that it's become true by fiat.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

huh? It's a straightforward proof by contradiction using only the most basic algebra. It's so easy and simple that it's very often used to demonstrate proof by contradiction.

Re:I've used them

[Kazoo the Clown]

Perhaps a more interesting math/logic puzzle might be to ask them to come up with the dimensions of a circle where both the circumference and diameter are whole numbers...

Re:I've used them

[Flavio]

Math education has virtually nothing to do with logic -- you are, in school, required to memorize formulas, and then plug in values when asked. You don't need to know the first thing about what you're actually doing, why any of it works, how these formulas were derived, or anything else, so long as you can dance on cue.

No one should get out of school thinking that math is about memorizing formulas. Math is about deducing interesting results out of very basic principles. This is not trivial, and it depends on thought patterns acquired over years of study.

Unfortunately, your experience regarding math education is now the norm. I don't know your background, but it's quite common to see even people with engineering and scientific bachelor degrees that only use math like they'd use a computer language -- as just another tool.

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

A usage note is a note on how the word is used, and will often help out with nuances of definition. In case you're still struggling with it, definition 3 is the one that supports my usage - "These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject or mode of expression." The field in this case being either the comparatively broad one of science (as opposed to arts) or the more narrow one of pure mathematics. The usage guide should help you to see how this is used in the real world, again with the C P Snow example being pretty much a perfect example.

Your definition of 'cultural bias', while informative to people who don't already know what they're talking about, doesn't really help here as it is defined in terms of 'culture', and you've already quoted the definition of culture that I was using, so it fits in with that definition perfectly as well.

I might as well argue requiring someone to spell properly is culturally biased? Well, if I required them to spell properly in English, or in a particular regional variation of English then yes, it clearly would be culturally biased. It's a moot point anyway, because as with the ability to solve pure maths problems the ability to spell correctly can be utterly irrelevant in a programmer. I know a number of extremely strong developers who are dyslexic to varying degrees. Sure, their comments have the occasional misspelling, but it doesn't make their code any worse.

Your problem here is that you're using a very narrow definition of culture, which the very dictionary entry you quote clearly doesn't support. Maybe the original poster was also specifically intending to use that narrow definition, but it is important to think beyond it, because people from different backgrounds can make excellent developers, and testing pure mathematical knowledge in an environment where that isn't part of the requirements to be a successful developer is not a good way to evaluate potential candidates, any more than a spelling test would be.

Re:I've used them

[MurphyZero]

The proof that sqrt(2) is irrational, Age 14? Age 10 is more appropriate. Quadratic formula is age 8 material. So it's very similar to testing basic grammar and spelling. That test is usually the resume itself.

Re:I've used them

[iapetus]

Tell you what, let's take an average group of 100 10-year olds and see how many can prove that sqrt(2) is irrational. I wouldn't put money on more than sqrt(2) of them managing it.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never seen a very convincing argument for the statement that learning math teaches logic

How's this: logic is derived from Boolean algebra. The process by which something is "logical" is defined mathematically. I don't see how you can teach logic w/o math.

Math isn't about formulas, memorization, etc.. It's about communication. Precise communication. Whenever you want to talk about something w/o handwaving, you will need an exact way to express what you are talking about.

Math in all its forms (algebra, geometry, algorithmics, calculus, linear algebra, etc..) is about modeling some aspect of the world we live in in a non-ambiguous way, so that later we can make predictions about its behavior, or merely understand the behavior to a greater depth.

One example: grammar. Grammar is an attempt to model language and its flaws and ambiguities. This tool enables language recognition software, and also compilers to work.

But I must agree that worldwide Math education is very 19th century.. most people don't understand math's importance or how they use it everyday. But a modern and technological society requires precise language to communicate or develop ideas and processes.. and precise language is Math.

Re:I've used them

[CalvinTheBold]

Why is it a stretch to prove the irrationality of sqrt(2)? This is trivial undergrad math stuff. sqrt(2) is a root of the polynomial equation x^2 - 2 = 0. By the rational roots theorem, if p/q is a root of the polynomial equation, then q divides 1 and p divides 2. Thus the only possible choices are +- 1 and +- 2. Neither of these is a solution so sqrt must not be rational.

I would not want to be asked to prove the rational roots theorem on an interview, but it's not impossible to work out from scratch just by thinking about it.

Re:I've used them

[Hawkxor]

odd numbers can be the square of an integer, just not even numbers with only a single repeated factor of 2...........

Re:I've used them

[Hawkxor]

What's interesting about this? It's clearly impossible..

Re:I've used them

[Photar]

Where is the cultural bias in pure math?

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a B.A. in computer science and a minor in mathematics and I never learned how to derive the quadratic formula. If you presented me with that question I would probably play around a bit but end up not solving it. For someone who majored in Art/English forget it. Polynomials are not something used very often by most software developers. 20 years after college it is simple to forget. Now out of curiosity I searched for how to derive the quadratic formula on google and as soon as it said complete the square it hit me so I went, got out a piece of paper, and as I haven't had to do algebra a bit, after 3 or 4 mins of getting used to math by hand again I managed it. However I don't see what that has to do with software. Isn't it better to give a software problem? Google asks general software problem (not what does this keyword in .NET mean, what is the maximum size of a row in sql server, how do you derive the quadratic formula, what does volatile in C mean). Because things like the derivation of a quadratic formula or specific questions about syntax in a language/standard libraries are all things that can easily be looked up. Better is "Explain quick sort in english, write pseudo code for this, what would you do with...and give an example of a problem you really have to solve on the job". I would not have derived the formula at first, but now that I saw your question, was curious, and peeked at the answer I probably won't forget how to derive the quadratic formula for many years :-P I think better questions are ones that don't rely on any type of knowledge except for thinking through a problem. The quadratic formula derivation fails this because you have to remember how to complete the square (easily found in a math book when you need it). Or questions directly related to software development (simple data structures, perhaps general methods of doing things in a programming language).

Re:I've used them

[Kazoo the Clown]

You're hired.

Re:I've used them

[Anonymous Coward]

"You don't need to know the first thing about what you're actually doing, why any of it works, how these formulas were derived, or anything else, so long as you can dance on cue."

And, you've hit the nail on the head. I claim that people who actually remember (or better yet, derive on the spot) that sqrt(2) is irrational and why are more likely to understand what they're doing. How hard is it, really? Assume sqrt(2) = p/q, square both sides, see that 2 = p^2/q^2, so that q^2 divides p^2. Note now that it's impossible to reduce p/q into lowest terms, something that is possible for all rational numbers.

That the vast majority of the engineering students I work with think you add fractions such that a/b + c/d = (a+c)/(b+d) in their second year of calculus is due to the fact that "dancing on cue" is acceptable practice in high school prep courses. These are dangerous people who only think they understand maths, but really only know how to dance on the head of a pin. Why shouldn't companies try to weed these pretenders out?

"You're asking people to come out of that kind of system, and then never use any of it for ten years, and be able to derive mathematical formulas that most people didn't understand or care about even when they were being exposed to it on a daily basis."

If they didn't care about maths when they were exposed to it on a daily basis, and if they didn't care about maths in the ten-year interval when they weren't forced to care about it, then maybe they should pick a less intellectually taxing field.

Re:I've used them

[Burb]

Ah, yes, but can you prove the result? It only took the mathematical world 2000+ years...

Re:I've used them

[ErikZ]

Playing four-square is also age 8 material, but I don't remember the rules to that either.

Re:I've used them

[Mark of THE CITY]

There is always the degenerate case, of circumfrence and radius equal to zero.

Moo

[Chacham]

Guvf vf xvaq bs fvyyl, ohg vg vf n avpr jnl gb svaq ng yrnfg *fbzr* gnyrag.

Re:Moo

[gEvil (beta)]

For those of you confused by the gibberish above, you can solve it by using the key in the subject line. The process involves adding and subtracting each subsequent character value in the key. Since 'm' is the 13th character, you start by adding 13. From there you subtract 15 ('o' is the 15th character), and then you add 15 again. This gives you a final rotation value of 13. You can then apply that to the message to decrypt it.

Re:Moo

[AKAImBatman]

And the point of posting that was... ?

I think "View Source" is the first thing that we all tried. The question is, did you advance onto more complex analysis techniques (such as tools that would show the page structure AFTER the embedded Javascript code ran) in an attempt to fully understand the page before you made an attempt at solving the puzzle?

Re:Moo

[42Penguins]

V pbaphe.

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

Heh, cute. :)

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

And the point of posting that was... ?

A) For the people for whom the site was blocked.
B) Common area for critique.
C) In case the page goes down.

The question is, did you advance onto more complex analysis techniques

Yes. The "mistake" is a tag in the script. Add it after the published URL, and it goes to the next form.

Re:Moo

[Gattman01]

Or you could just treat it as a simple substituion and break it that way, like I did.

Re:Moo

[AKAImBatman]

A) For the people for whom the site was blocked.

1) If the site is blocked, giving them the source won't help them much.
2) If they can't find a way to get around a block, they're not very good at what they do. ;-)

B) Common area for critique.

It's the source code. It's gibberish that happens to have meaning to a computer. You wouldn't post an entire copy of Hamlet just to critique the existentialist meaning behind "To be or not to be" line, would you? No, you'd quote the relevant sections, then make your point.

C) In case the page goes down.

See #1 above.

Yes. The "mistake" is a tag in the script. Add it after the published URL, and it goes to the next form

You didn't answer the question. While the solution you gave is correct, did you take the time to understand the page fully before jumping on ahead? For example, do you know which tool is being used to track your movements? Is it first party or third party?

Part of being analytical is to do the analysis correctly. Shortcuts invariably mean that mistakes will eventually get made. Especially since the puzzle doesn't end there.

Re:Moo

[treeves]

How did you solve that so quickly?

Re:Moo

[sirsky]

www.rot13.com, copy and paste.

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

1) If the site is blocked, giving them the source won't help them much.

But it will let them see what the article is talking about.

2) If they can't find a way to get around a block, they're not very good at what they do. ;-)

That much is true. :)

It's gibberish that happens to have meaning to a computer....you'd quote the relevant sections

A) The whole paghe is relevant
B) Any browser can show it
C) HTML code is not gibberish.

did you take the time to understand the page fully

No, silly. That's why i posted it here.:P

Re:Moo

[Red Flayer]

Or just recognize the key in the subject line... this isn't the first time that subject line and ROT-13 have been used in a comment on a story tangentially relating to codebreaking...

Re:Moo

[miscz]

Rot13 is way too easy :)

Re:Moo

[joschm0]

Lrf, vg vf fvyyl

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

That's why for extra encryption, you should rot-13 a second time. :)

Re:Moo

[jZnat]

I thought it was rot13 until you confused the hell out of me. ;p

Re:Moo

[crawling_chaos]

And reverse the order of the letters in the message twice for good measure.

Re:Moo

[Thuktun]

The text is simply rot-13'd, the bit about the subject being the key is a bit of humor.

Of course, they say a joke isn't funny when you have to explain it, but I thought it was funny anyway.

Re:Moo

[cp.tar]

Leetkey.

Re:Moo

[sco08y]

Since 'm' is the 13th character, you start by adding 13. From there you subtract 15 ('o' is the 15th character), and then you add 15 again.

Idiot, you've got it backwards. It's -13 + 15 - 15.

Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashdot?

[AKAImBatman]

Well, that was fun. For about 10 minutes. Then I got bored. :P

Or more precisely, I don't need a job in Quebec, nor do I particularly want to work with PHP for a living. So I wasn't particularly interested in submitting my resume and 'PHP code'. Still, it's kind of a neat site. I would encourage companies looking for high-end talent to do more of this as a recruitment effort. After all, it had me intrigued enough to solve their little puzzle (even if it was overrated) despite not looking to work for them.

Unfortunately, the comparison with Google is poor. Google requires that you have a Masters Degree (PhDs are preferrable) before they even give you their test. Then they're so secretive that they may never get back to you even if you complete their test perfectly. You'll never even know why they didn't get back to you, despite a promise to start an interview process after the test.

As a result, the two don't really compare. :)

P.S. The Prove Your Worth site really does track your movements via (some rather ugly looking) Javascript. So move carefully.

Answer

[kevin_conaway]

I suspect that its not necessarily that you solve the riddle this instant, they probably want to get an insight into how you think and how you solve problems.

Problem solving is a huge part of developing software and an important quality to have in a candidate

Re:Answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Politely saying you don't know the answer is still a good sign. I gave a prospective hire a riddle with multiple right answers. It was a "which piece of code is better and why". I just wanted to see how he thought. He totally freaked. "I can't believe you'd decide who to hire based on this!" The fact that he lost his cool over something so trivially convinced me I never wanted to work with him.

Re:Answer

[Knara]

I dunno, "getting or not getting a job" is often not a trivial thing.

Re:Answer

[bzipitidoo]

Did you tell the poor guy why he wasn't hired? Seeing that you posted this little anecdote as A. Coward, I suppose not. And if he asked, I imagine you fobbed him off with a non-answer, carefully crafted by your legal council and HR people to give him no grounds upon which to make any trouble. He really could've used that information. Sadly, minimal information often seems the safest, best CYA choice. That's one thing that makes interviewing so hard-- the lack of honest feedback.

Re:Answer

[hondo77]

I would have been happy if companies had gotten back to me with a "Thanks but no thanks" response during my last round of interviews. Is this some 21st century rule that I am not aware of?: only respond to people you're going to hire. Of the several companies I recently interviewed with, the only one that got back in touch with me was the one that offered me a job. Not so much as a postcard, phone call, or email from the rest. Even the companies with which I folowed up.

Re:Answer

[simishag]

You make a good point, but there's a big difference between solving riddles on the spot and solving programming or sysadmin problems. Most people, especially those with some experience, are a lot better at solving concrete real-world problems than some contrived abstract example. Why, for instance, is the light-bulb riddle (usually attributed to Microsoft) a better test of programming skill? Why not ask someone to pseudo-design an enterprise application given some generic requirements?

The question that trumps riddles

[plopez]

"What have I got in my pockets".

Considering the resemblence of hiring trolls to Gollum, it seemed appropriate :)

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[gEvil (beta)]

lint

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[DaveV1.0]

Precccsiouussssss

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[ajlitt]

No tea.

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[gEvil (beta)]

Ahh, good answer. :)

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[Black Art]

"What have I got in my pockets".

"But pity staid his hand.

"It is a pity I have run out of bullets."."

        - Bored of the Rings

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[plopez]

"Hands or nothing!"

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[The_Rift]

a buffered analgesic
pocket fluff
a thing your aunt gave you which you don't know what it is

Re:The question that trumps riddles

[camperdave]

For something that fits into your pocket, the thing your aunt gave you which you don't know what it is can hold a lot of stuff.

Moo

[Chacham]

Source of linked page:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transition al.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>

<me ta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<title>Prove.Your.Worth.</ti tle>

<link href="data/default.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
<style type="text/css">
<!--
.style1 {
font-size: xx-large;
font-style: italic;
}
.style3 {color: #CC6600}
-->
</style>
<script type="text/javascript" src="data/overlib.js"></script>
<script type="text/javascript" src="data/overlib_bubble.js"></script>
</head>

<body>

<div id="full">
<table id="main" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td id="content-left"><img src="data/bg-ds-tl.png" alt="" height="600" width="10"></td>
<td id="content">
<div class="top" id="top-main" style="position: relative;"><img src="data/splash.jpg" alt="Prove.It" height="300" width="730">
<div id="ribbon"></div>
</div>
<div class="left" id="left-main">
<div id="whatbox"><div id="what-t"><div id="what-b"><div id="what-l"><div id="what-r"><div id="what-bl"><div id="what-br"><div id="what-tl"><div id="what-tr">

<p>Follow the <span class="style3"><mistake>little</mistake></span> yellow brick road... </p>
<div class="item" id="purpose">

&nbsp;<em>BozosLiveHere</em><br />
<br />&nbsp;Firstly, you must invoke a hidden form.<br />

<br />&nbsp;Fill out the form, but make sure you submit it properly
<br />&nbsp;and pay attention to clues. <br />

&nbsp;For each attempt is inspected carefully and meticulously.
<br />&nbsp; </div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></ div>

<div id="pitches">
<div class="pitch">
<p><em>?p=begin&amp;mistake=[answer here]</em></p>
</div>
</div>

</div>
<div class="right" id="right-main">

<div id="dynamic"><div id="dyna-t"><div id="dyna-b"><div id="dyna-l"><div id="dyna-r"><div id="dyna-bl"><div align="right" id="dyna-br"><div id="dyna-tl"><div id="dyna-tr">
<div class="item">
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p

Hooray advertising.

[cbiffle]

Having interviewed at a number of these companies (Google included), this "riddle" emphasis is dramatically overstated.

So, then, what could the point of this submission be? Perhaps to drive posters to this website?

Bah. Screw 'em.

Solution

[mikeumass]

http://www.proveyourworth.net/?p=begin&mistake=lit tle

Re:Solution

[cs02rm0]

That was what I thought was obvious, but no.

Re:Solution

[Nos.]

That's step one, step two is to automate the reply to the form in step two. Not incredibly difficult, and they give you hints on what to use to do it (fscok, curl, snoopy). Since it requires you to use POST, its a little more than just manipulating the URL, but like I said, its not incredibly difficult.

That being said, this is probably not a bad way to screen out those who are incompetent. It would narrow the field down at least somewhat.

Re:Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Having looked at the source again after you posted that, I can safely say: *groan*

Re:Solution

[cs02rm0]

Oh. I pasted the URL into firefox and it put an & in which obviously screwed it up.

Re:Solution

[Qzukk]

The interesting thing about it is that not only does it test the applicant's ability to use various PHP tools (in a roundabout way) it also forces awareness of some of the stupider things people do in their site designs. Hidden values in forms that are expected to be secure because you can't see them in the browser, aren't. People can post anything to your form from anywhere, not just from the page you thought they should be coming from, and so on.

That said, I've done the kind of automation that they're looking for, and all I can say about it is that if my "targets" for scraping had tags like <mistake> that told me the important parts, my job would be five billion times easier. Especially if the tag was always the same. Nothing like setting up a script that logs into a website, "navigates" to the page I want and read the parts of the page that were interesting to me, only to have the company completely redesign their website... now if only companies would use SOAP.

Re:Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

please could you tell me more about this second step and how to exactly do it... i know i am qualified for this job as i'm good at copy/paste and even know the keyboard shortcuts for both

ps: i tried googling for your keywords but don't understand the resulting pages, so thank you for helping me having this job.

Re:Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easy. See here for a description of automation. All you have to do is is build a robot that manipulates the keyboard and mouse of a computer terminal to input the form. Name the robot PHP (this is important.)

Re:Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

It also gets rid of headhunters calling them up. But maybe that's redundant with "incompetent".

Re:Solution

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

yeah that's sort of a negative of scraping :)

You gotta have a gimmick

[Hahnsoo]

It seems like a gimmick to me, although I do find the historical anecdotes interesting. Puzzles appeal to the ego of those solving it, but may not actually test the appropriate skillset of the potential candidate. I can recall about a half a dozen TV shows and movies that had similar gimmicks for the hiring practices of their employees (e.g. "Men in Black"). Most of the time, it's a plot device to bring the "fish out of water" character into the fold. Then again, maybe that's entirely the point of the puzzle.

Re:You gotta have a gimmick

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome, "you're the first one who survived the interview." Personally, I want to go for a job like that, even though I don't do well in interviews.

Re:You gotta have a gimmick

[enrgeeman]

Yea, but he cheated. (not really) He had a knife spatula.

Re:You gotta have a gimmick

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had a knife-spatula, those are cool.

The concept is wide spread

[Thansal]

I have a friend who is an Electrical Engineer. Around the time of him graduating college (3 years now I think) he had a few interviews where a large part of it conssisted of him being given a schematic of something random, and them asking him what it was and what was wrong.

All these types of applications arr just apptitude tests. Can you troubleshoot/maintain/repair/improve our stuff? If you can, and can prove it, here is a job.

Personaly, I tihnk they are an ideal priliminary screening technique. After that you follow up my making sure they seem like a reliable individual, have the other skills you need, etc etc etc.

Re:The concept is wide spread

[Doctor Memory]

I had this at a company I worked for previously. It was under the auspices of a C language test (yeah, this was awhile ago), but after some fluff questions there was a block of code and two questions: What is this code supposed to do? and Why doesn't it work? And it was interesting how often variations of that same block of code turned up in the system we were writing.

Much better than the "quiz" I had to go through at a small start-up, which basically consisted of testing my knowledge of Java garbage-collection minutiae (for a Java app development position). Hint: don't test prospective employees in-depth knowledge of things that have nothing to do with the job they'll be performing. The guy they eventually hired was a JVM internals guru, but didn't turn out to know too much about performance tuning a distributed application, which is what they needed him to do...

Re:The concept is wide spread

[Grishnakh]

I used to help with interviews in my last job at my same company. We gave simple programming tests to our candidates as well. It was shocking how many people claimed to be "expert" C/C++ programmers, and couldn't explain what a class was, or write out an extremely simple C code fragment (like print "Hello" 15 times). It was really eye-opening to see how much exaggeration and even outright lying there was on peoples' resumes, and it didn't take complicated tests or questions to discover it.

Re:The concept is wide spread

[Tim Browse]

Ha!

As I think I've said a number of times on slashdot before, I wrote a C/C++ test once for recruitment purposes. To be nice, I decided to 'give away' 3 points, and just get people feeling relaxed by making the first question "Fill in these truth tables for AND, OR, and XOR operations." I thought this was just a gift. No way anyone could flunk that and lose those points.

You don't want to know how many "C/C++ programmers" couldn't do that. It wasn't the majority of applicants, but it was worryingly larger than zero.

Think fast

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of the timed problem solving questions don't necessarily work for everyone. I usually do most of my problem solving in background. Usually I get the solution around 3 a.m. I never write down the solution and I always remember them. At least as far as I can recall.

The big problem with job riddle or puzzle questions is sometimes they're more about the interviewer than the interviewee. When the question can't be answered, the interviewer can show off how smart they are. So maybe on these questions, you don't want your answer to be too clever.

Puzzles are okay

[rolfwind]

if they are related to the actual job. I don't expect a history/language riddle for a programming related job, etcetera - as that won't tell you much.

That said, there is so many variables what makes a good/valuable employee that basing a hiring decision solely on one riddle can be silly.

But it's not going to affect IT any. I have the impression that some companies have always been a bit silly in this area, and some companies always had their feet on the ground and don't go for the latest fad/nonsense.

I remember that in 2003, several newspaper articles proclaimed that Graphology was going to be the next greatest thing in hiring.

I like this

[Travoltus]

Prove to me your talents. That's what I need. That and a criminal background check that comes up negative.

Re:I like this

[BenEnglishAtHome]

and a criminal background check that comes up negative

Is your hiring policy so brain-dead that any blot on a criminal background check is an automatic disqualifier? Or is a potential candidate given a chance to explain? We live in times when it seems that everything is illegal. No one gets through a day without doing something illegal. No one gets through a month without committing a serious crime. (Well, at least that's true if you have a half-way fun sex life.) Is your requirement for a negative background check absolute? If so, why?

Re:I like this

[MindStalker]

1) It proves you are good enough not to get caught.
2) If they tell you to do something illigal they don't want it comming back to them in the terms of "You hired a known felon..."

Re:I like this

[ceoyoyo]

Seems to me having a few felons around would be a good for plausible deniability.

Re:I like this

[Grishnakh]

No one gets through a month without committing a serious crime. (Well, at least that's true if you have a half-way fun sex life.)

That depends on what state you live in. If you live in a state where getting a blow-job or having sex in any position other than the missionary, or having sex with the lights on is illegal (I'm looking at you, Virginia!), then maybe you should move to a state that gives you more freedom.

Re:I like this

[Cedric Tsui]

IIRC, criminal background checks are only appropriate for positions where you are acting as a primary care giver. I had to file police check to work at a summer camp for instance. In fact, I believe it is illegal to withhold a job from someone simply because they have a criminal record.

Mind you, this is in Canada. Is it any different in the states?

Re:I like this

[n00854180t]

Quite a bit different in the states. Many places do criminal background checks routinely, and depending on state, will be able to terminate/discriminate solely based on the criminal record. Places that do applications typically have a "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" question, and will usually pass on candidates that answer yes(depending on state).

Re:I like this

[Anonymous Coward]

A bit off-topic, but a lot of SM play is illegal in most of Europe, the UK and the US.

Google the "spanner case" for a particularly unfair example. While what they were doing may not be to your taste, no reasonable person could have found anything wrong with it, and the "victims" said they were perfectly happy with everything that happened and had consented to it all.

Re:I like this

[ahodgson]

It's not like you have to tell someone why you didn't hire them.

Re:I like this

[simishag]

"Brain dead?" Come on. A felony conviction is often an automatic disqualifier, full stop. Lesser convictions might be too depending on the position and company. It's nice to feel sorry for people who made a bad decision once and want a second chance, but when you have 10 other similarly qualified applicants in the queue who have no criminal convictions, the criminal's application is going to be the first one tossed in the circular file.

Re:I like this

[dbIII]

No one gets through a month without committing a serious crime

Time to replace the government, change your behaviour or move.

Re:I like this

[Sigma 7]

It proves you are good enough not to get caught.

No, it proves that you haven't been convicted. When a criminal record check brings up a positive, there is that rare case where it is a wrongful conviction

While most wrongful convictions pertain to murders, there are ones that apply to tresspass, theft and other "minor" crimes. Likewise, wrongful convictions can arise from the refusal to acknowledge self-defence (i.e. what occurrs under most American High School's "Zero-Tolerance" policy.)

2) If they tell you to do something illigal they don't want it comming back to them in the terms of "You hired a known felon..."

If they tell you to do something illegal, it will come back to them as "You told him to do something illegal." (And no, the illegal act was not performed.)

The government has security screening which permits criminals to obtain jobs that require security clearances. In this page, Section 204.3.B.k, you see instructions for criminal convictions that state that the application will be delayed if incorrectly filled (and potentially denied.)

Hang on a tick...

[Rachel Lucid]

You encrypted a message in ROT-13 and expect people to have trouble with it?!

Re:Hang on a tick...

[Anonymous Coward]

That breeze you felt a bit ago was the joke zipping over your head.

Riddle me this...

[RyoShin]

Riddles are good at proving problem solving skills, but don't necessarily show prgramming or IT eptitude. Someone who solves a riddle fast is more likely to be able to fix an unknown problem with little background, and while that is good a better employee would be able to keep the problem from happening in the first place.

Riddles are a good test and gauge a person better than "you went to this school for this time period, got these grades, and then went on to do this job for a few years", but they don't make the other information useless.

Re:Riddle me this...

[Chacham]

Riddles are good at proving problem solving skills, but don't necessarily show prgramming or IT eptitude.

Or the ability to spell "aptitude". :)

/me ducks and runs for cover.

Re:Riddle me this...

[peragrin]

while I agree with you for programing, IT, in genral is trying to figure out which part is bad out of so many possible combinations, ranging from hardware to software layers. Solving a riddle may not prove your worth as a programmer, but it won't hurt it either. it shows you can see things from more than just GIGO.

Re:Riddle me this...

[RyoShin]

I didn't misspell nothing. I made up a word. Shakespear did it, so can I!

"eptitude" means "idiot shouldn't work here".

(Actually, I'm rather drowsy from some new meds, so burn away.)

Re:Riddle me this...

[Chacham]

Heh.

I actually had to look to make sure that it didn't mean anything. :)

Re:Riddle me this...

[Opportunist]

Well, in today's IT world, your chances are high that you're hired for fixing code rather than for writing new code. More often than not, I was hired for maintaining and expanding existing code than for writing code from scratch. So yes, your ability to understand a problem, find its source and fixing it is definitly high on the "want-to-have" scale of IT companies today.

Re:Riddle me this...

[nuzak]

> Riddles are good at proving problem solving skills

They're good at a particular set of problem solving skills.

Let's see, what did I do yesterday ... Tracked down a rogue remote reconfiguration that hosed a lab box, aided by my knowledge of PAM and experience with where to look in syslog. Suggested some variance analysis datamining to fine-tune an antispam rule retraining algorithm. Explained the differences between a DFA and NFA regex engine to a new guy and how backrefs will blow it up.

I am the go-to guy in my department for all manner of technical questions. And you know what? I suck at crosswords and all manner of brainteasers. Any would-be employer giving me one of those will find me walking out the door.

Re:Riddle me this...

[Maxo-Texas]

Clearly they are related

in-ept means not-skillful so ept would be skill

-tude is a "Latinate suffix forming abstract nouns from adjectives and participles" from the latin -tudo

eptitude would be skill at something
aptitude would be inherent ability at something

And of course, both are much -tudo about nothing.

Re:Riddle me this...

[chochos]

"eptitude" means "idiot shouldn't work here".

I thought it was the opposite of ineptitude, so you should hire people who have eptitude...

Re:Riddle me this...

[Sj0]

What if the person comes up with plausable answers multiple times that fulfil the criteria, but not the correct answer? There lies a problem. Most puzzles are one-trick ponys. Once you get them to give up their secret, the answer falls into place. You can approach the same problem in a dozen different ways and they'll all give you some sort of answer, but only the one is correct.

Personally, my problem solving methodology depends on being able to see as many different possible causes as I can for a problem, then trying to narrow down which solutions will be the most likely to solve the most likely problems. In the end, there's no one answer, but the system can continue to function.

Smells like an ad...

[assantisz]

feels like an ad... and the riddle is not really challenging.

Riddles work

[grapeape]

Its how I landed my current job. Resume wise I have an unrelated degree, few certifications that are still valid but many years of experience. The companies owner saw my resume and noticed an application I had listed was a relatively obscure one that they were having trouble with. I was asked to come in as a consultant for a week and fix the problem for them. I had everything fixed in less than a day, they were impressed enough that I was offered a full time job on the spot.

Riddle solving evens the playing field for those that are skilled but may not have the resume to reflect their skill level. I know most hate the old saying that "those who can do and those who cant teach" but many times book smarts doesnt translate into real world performance. Being able to display the smarts and tenacity to tackle a problem head especially after others have tried and given up instantly gives you a "value" to the potential employer. I think most that dont like the idea arent comfortable with the idea that someone with a lesser resume might actually be better in real world situations.

Re:Riddles work

[rhkaloge]

So what was the riddle? "Fix our network and you got the job" isn't a riddle, it's a tryout.

Re:Riddles work

[Tim Browse]

Its how I landed my current job.

The singular of anecdotes is not datum.

Re:Riddles work

[simishag]

Riddle solving evens the playing field for those that are skilled but may not have the resume to reflect their skill level.

It sounds like you're referring to people without experience. Otherwise, I don't see how you can be skilled and not have the resume to reflect it. I also don't see how riddles make a difference one way or the other. There will always be entry level applicants; why force the riddle on the majority of applicants who are bringing at least some experience to the job?

I think most that dont like the idea arent comfortable with the idea that someone with a lesser resume might actually be better in real world situations.

Well, duh. I don't see how it's a good hiring practice to hire someone with no experience who can solve a riddle in 10 minutes, instead of the guy with 10 years experience who just doesn't "get" the riddle. Perhaps the first guy is really smart and will pay off in the long term, but maybe the second guy has the skills the company needs right now. Shouldn't hiring tests be based on something the company actually does, rather than an abstract test?

Re:Riddles work

[grapeape]

No actually im talking about the people who have worked in the field for years but dont have the formal related degree or the arm long list of certifications you see requested for candidates at Monster or most other job sites.

I guess my interpretation of the article was different from most. I saw it as a way of weeding out those that simply attended class from those that actually knew what they are doing. Don't get me wrong, I do think an education is important and degrees are valuable but sometimes other criteria should weigh even heavier in the hiring process, riddles if relevant are a good way to even the playing field of job smart and book smart.

Pay less attention to the answer

[Enry]

Pay more attention to how you got to the answer, even if it's wrong.

Years ago I went through something similar during an interview. VP of sales comes in, hands me a piece of paper, pencil, and calculator and asked me to figure out how many gas stations were in the US. Came back about 10 minutes later and we discussed how I got to my answer and how we got to his. Both of ours were reasonable, though we were probably both off the actual number. I think he just wanted to make sure I came up with something in the time instead of a random guess.

Got the job, and no, it wasn't in sales.

Re:Pay less attention to the answer

[Tjp($)pjT]

Take out Nokia E61 phone and browse web. Find sites with marketing info for gas station owners. Thier come-on will mention values as of a few months/years ago. And usually growth. For hack and slash assume linear growth if only 1-2 years. Set of the pants adjustment for gas price fluctuations and car sales trends (SUVs vs Hybrids).

Alternate is estimate based on US population and new car warranty and/or lease assumptions for driving habits (or insurance companies if you know them). Guess average MPG is slightly below 20 MPG as that is an important "cut off" figure. Add a guess for commercial traffic. Like say 30% more.

Got time? Do both and see if they are close. Tune each fudge factor to come close.

These questions are more fun. MSFT interviews can be rough. They ask interesting questions but want code to solve them. They _seem_ to be more interested in how you attack the problem than your solution. Also they ask simple logic puzzles ... I spent less time talking about my own abilities during the 5.5 hour interview through 6 people than solving puzzels or writing code (which is the same thing). Often I could explain the approach very simply but the code was longer to write .. especially since it was on a white board which makes top down a tough design choice. Hard to insert lines at some point.

I use mostly simple logic problems when hiring folks myself. Sometimes real world, sometimes abstract. It depends on the position I am looking to fill. Only time I have made a regretted hire was hiring my own boss so I could get back to research and architecture. He just turned out to have been less than truthful about the answers to the "ambitions if you are hired" questions. But we are who we are.

As long as they do it for every other employee....

[Anonymous Coward]

Manager
    "The bad news is that you failed the puzzle exam, the good news is that if you can make this power point slide animate annoyingly while playing music, you're hired."

CEO/CFO/etc.
    "Here's a knife and here's your mother, stab her and I'll give you $20."

Corporate Lawyer
    "Look outside and tell me it's raining (it's sunny). Now write the most incomprehensible sentence you can. When you are finished, Bob the CEO wants to talk to you about another test."

Accountant
    "See these two piles of cash on my table? When I turn around, you have five seconds to hide one so that I can't find it."

Marketing
    "Tell me again how this pen in my hand can cure cancer?"

Sales
    "I have several baggies of what appears to be baking soda on my desk, when I come back at lunch, they should be gone."

Intern
    "When I say it's all your fault, you say ok. It's your fault."

Technical Support
    "This button on the phone transfers the caller to another support person. Can you press it?"

Office Assistant
    "Do you have experience with the mentally handicapped or young children? Meet Bob, your new boss."

From a recent graduate....

[antialias02]

In terms of companies I've looked at working for lately, a strong majority wants "A Bachelor's Degree and 2+/5+ years of experience in ________." I'm a fast learner and a good problem solver with a broad background, but I might not have had 2 years of working expertise in ________ - but that doesn't mean I can't learn it and become proficient quickly. Many employers aren't that interested in that kind of employee: they seem to simply want someone who can come in and just "work." This kind of test, I think, does give recent grads/employment n00bs a chance to step up to the plate and get an edge in so that we can actually start getting that experience other employers will require later.

Re:From a recent graduate....

[DaveV1.0]

Contact them and see if they would be willing to do a trial period at a reduced pay rate. Say 3 months at half the going rate. Then, a review and if they keep you, another 3 months at 3/4th the going rate. Then another review and if you are acceptable, you continue on at full pay rate.

Re:From a recent graduate....

[kevin_conaway]

Where are you looking for work? The company I work for routinely hires entry level developers and trains them

Of course, the expectation is that you will stay with the company for a period of time to actually give them proper ROI

Re:From a recent graduate....

[bladesjester]

I know that here (Ohio), they're always looking for people with insane amounts of experience (all "required" mind you) for something they bill as an "entry level" position.

It makes me want to beat people sensless. Unfortunately, for some of the people that are making the ads, that wouldn't require much.

Personally speaking, I'm still looking (though things are looking a little better as I have had a couple of interviews in the last two weeks).

Re:From a recent graduate....

[cubicledrone]

ontact them and see if they would be willing to do a trial period at a reduced pay rate. Say 3 months at half the going rate. Then, a review and if they keep you, another 3 months at 3/4th the going rate. Then another review and if you are acceptable, you continue on at full pay rate.

Congratulations. You've discovered that employers want highly competent employees for free.

Re:From a recent graduate....

[Anonymous Coward]

I can identify with your situation 'recent graduate'. I am in a similar situation. Since earning a computer science degree in Dec 2005, I haven't had much (correction: any) luck in my computer related job search.

The sad situation is that the only way to get 2 years experience doing such-and-such is to have 2 years experience doing such-and-such. Unless you know someone who is working. In that case, you wouldn't need your degree. It is a catch-22. It is a deadlock. Remember how deadlock situations are resolved? (Ahh...yes, life lessons from the operating systems course...)

I give up. Rejoice! There is more computer work for the rest of you -- right?

I will live the rest of my days trying to forget about computer science. I will shred my copy of the 'dragon book'. Computer science is fascinating, but it is ruining my life.

My (bad) advice:
Do one of the following:
* Exaggerate your experience. You might pick up a few paychecks before you get canned.
* Forget that computer science degree. Tell people that you studied business AND exaggerate your experience. You will probably find work. You might even get a job that doesn't require that you work more than 40 hours per week.
* Hopelessly wait for that computer job. Maybe when the baby boomers retire (I.E.: get forced out), maybe, maybe you'll find work. I wouln't count on it though. I hear that vocational colleges in India are ramping up 'production' in order to meet the anticipated demand.

even worse

[Desolator144]

One of my teachers said that back in the day she sat down for an interview and the guy gave her a hundred or so page printout of the program they were using writtin in Basic or some ancient thing like that. Then he told her to read it and explain to him how it worked in summary. She didn't get the job and I don't think anyone did. Needless to say, he wasn't an IT department guy, he was a hiring guy.
Whenever companies decide on some ridiculous hiring style, I say forget them. If enough people boycott a stupid hiring trend, it goes away. Though I do think solve the riddle style ones aren't half bad because if you can't solve it, you shouldn't get a job (as long as it's a riddle related to your job area) though they should base it on more than that.

Re:even worse

[Anonymous Coward]

writtin in Basic or some ancient thing like that

Aren't you that kid who was bragging about how he wrote some app in VB in a day that nobody else could even write in C++?

Re:even worse

[Anonymous Coward]

>One of my teachers said that back in the day she sat down for an interview and the guy gave her a hundred or so page printout of the program they were using writtin in Basic or some ancient thing like that. Then he told her to read it and explain to him how it worked in summary.

They probably weren't even actually hiring anybody. It sounds like someone quit and they needed someone to explain the guys code after he left.

Re:even worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. He's one and the same.

Pull up a chair, this should be fun. I'll bring the popcorn if you can bring the soda.

AtheaHealth Does this too

[sr. taquito]

For their developer positions they email you a problem which has no solution because of insufficient data. So I wrote a program that would model the problem and ask for the missing data. That got me an interview but someone who wasn't a recent college grad was in the running as well and got the position (or so they say!) I do really enjoy the idea of having to solve a puzzle though.

It filters for one type of person

[pauljlucas]

Does [solve-the-riddle] give decent graduates/talented unexperienced devs/homegrown coders a chance at the corporate job, or does it alienate potential matches?

If I do say so myself, I'm a pretty good software architect and developer. However, I don't do well under the kind of pressure typically experienced at a job interview when asked to solve oddball problems in real-time. Often, my biggest insights come when I'm not consiously thinking about the problem, e.g., while in the shower.

Those who do well at solve-the-riddle interviews are certainly intelligent and can solve problems, but it's not necessarily true that they can solve ill-specified problems -- real-world problems that need solving aren't usually as completely specified as a riddle or puzzle.

There are other ways to conduct interviews that yield good candidates. Get the person to talk about his past work -- technical people who have done good stuff love to do this with great enthusiasm. You can then ask about trade-offs in thei designs and implementations. You can usually figure out whether the candidate was a key player in the work being discussed.

Another way is to describe a real-world problem facing your company, but without actually asking the candidate anything. A good candidate will be interested in yoru problem, ask questions, offer suggestions. If the candidate just sits there, s/he's not a good candidate.

Re:It filters for one type of person

[starfishsystems]

Absolutely.

There are certainly tech support jobs out there which consist primarily of what we might call solving puzzles.

Generally, however, a technical person needs to be broadly competent, needs to have strengths in both analysis and design, needs to communicate well, needs to be able to manage relationships effectively, needs to be able to organize and prioritize effectively under directions which can be incomplete or ambiguous.

The best technical people are not just able to address the issues in front of them, they use them to generate leverage in making progress toward larger goals. They have to articulate and negotiate for those larger goals, which means they have to be sensitive to interests of other individuals, and to the potential for alignment and conflict among them.

These requirements hold especially for more senior positions. It's fine to be able to solve puzzles, but that's not most of the job. And as anyone with hiring experience knows, it's far more successful to gain senior people by letting them rise through the ranks than it is to hire them from outside the organization. Unless you make a point of attracting and hiring people who have that potential, you can risk ending up mostly with a whole bunch of puzzle solvers.

Even scientific research, which obviously tries to solve some very hard puzzles, is mostly driven by collaboration. I've seen generations of compuer science grad students come and go, and the ones that go furthest are invariably the most collaborative. Out of the practice of collaboration they seem to have an easier time understanding their work in context, and they seem able to pick up all the other necessary management skills along the way.

Re:It filters for one type of person

[Gulthek]

Those who do well at solve-the-riddle interviews are certainly intelligent and can solve problems, but it's not necessarily true that they can solve ill-specified problems -- real-world problems that need solving aren't usually as completely specified as a riddle or puzzle.

Well sure, but although they may not be good at "real-world" problems, you, as a candidate, definitely aren't good at the oddball problems in "real-time".

So you're saying that you have a skill, but that the people who already have proven themselves in the quick riddle test may also have that skill.

Your interview suggestions seem a little off. Have you actually done any hiring or are these techniques that you'd like to see applied during your next interview? Lots of people can BS about tech, less can demonstrate a good problem solving mind, and less can do it in "real-time".

Re:It filters for one type of person

[pauljlucas]

So you're saying that you have a skill, but that the people who already have proven themselves in the quick riddle test may also have that skill.

Congratulations: you've gotten my point which is: using riddle-solving as the only method for choosing new-hires isn't useful.

Have you actually done any hiring?

Yes.

Re:It filters for one type of person

[hoggoth]

> I don't do well under the kind of pressure typically experienced at a job interview when asked to solve oddball problems in real-time. Often, my biggest insights come when I'm not consiously thinking about the problem, e.g., while in the shower

That could make for an awkward interview.
"I went to Boston University for undergrad... pass the soap... and got my masters at MIT... hang on a sec I'm shampooing now."

Re:It filters for one type of person

[Frogbert]

I typically get around this problem by tipping a glass of water over my head when presented with hard problems that I need to figure out asap.

Is it legal to do this?

[Animats]

To submit your resume, you have to construct a URL manually. The Angelides campaign in California is in trouble for doing that on Governor Schwartznegger's "speeches" site, where all they did was to look at the directory of available audio and listen to it, instead of just listening to the stuff that had external links.

If anybody cares, http://www.proveyourworth.net/?p=begin&mistake=lit tle gets you to their stupid form.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[fatwreckfan]

I don't think the second page is the end of the challenge.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[Animats]

And then you have to build up the URL as if some app had built it. The arguments are

p="auto_submit"&hash="number you get from form page"&referer="URL of form page"...

There's more, but you get the idea.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[Nos.]

Ahhh, but they also want attachments, which means you can't do it with a simple GET request.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[DaveV1.0]

Yes, this is legal. The reason it is legal is that they are asking you to do it. You have been authorized to do it.

It is the authorization that makes it legal. Just like if you hire someone to pop the lock on your car, or to pick the lock on your house because you lost/forgot your key.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[Wyrd01]

It is the authorization that makes it legal. Just like if you hire someone to pop the lock on your car, or to pick the lock on your house because you lost/forgot your key.

...Or Vampires. It's okay for them to come into your house, but only if you invite them.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[00lmz]

Use Firefox's DOM inspector, change the values in the form fields, change the user agent, and submit... still doesn't solve the "show your code" bit though :)

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[beebware]

That's the way I did it and it's the way I'd do in in real life. Why? Well, this is a one-off form submission which would take me longer to load EditPlus and start typing then to "hack around". However, if it was going to be needed to be submitted multiple times, then time/management laws state it will be worth automatating/scripting.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

No, it is legal because it's a public webserver with no safeguards (in that place). I would argue that the Governator thing was legal too, since that's what webservers are designed to do.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[DamnStupidElf]

Yes, this is legal. The reason it is legal is that they are asking you to do it. You have been authorized to do it.

AFAIK, it's legal because they're running a public (it's connected to the Internet) web server that doesn't return 403 Forbidden to unauthenticated requests. As long as only well formed HTTP messages are sent to the server, it's perfectly legal. Trying to exploit buffer overflows, DoSing it, or attempting to circumvent its authentication methods may be illegal depending on the laws in your country.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[DeadSea]

why limit yourself to firefox?

Just type some javascript into the url bar:

javascript: document.forms[0].action = "?p=auto_submit";

Then you are good to go with any web browser.

Re:Is it legal to do this?

[00lmz]

Well, probably because I'm just not that good at JavaScript... and the DOM inspector is so easy to use.

Attatch txt/rtf/doc?

[Cybert4]

Ech, doc. Apparently they are not as progressive as it seems.

Re:Attatch txt/rtf/doc?

[Grishnakh]

Yep, that's pretty bad. And they don't even accept PDF? Seems to me that PDF should be the standard for resume submission.

Apply!

[Cybert4]

Using it during school or for personal projects counts. Just apply! Don't be discouraged by anything. If it's really a longshot, don't spend much time on cover letters. But putting your name in the hat never hurts.

Some more relevant questions:

[192939495969798999]

1. Sales has agreed to build a system, and the client's already signed off on a fixed price payment. You have 1 month to build it until the budget runs out. There is no spec, no design document, and no way to confirm any given feature. What do you do?

A. Build as fast as possible and hope for the best.
B. Cry and whimper like a baby, because you're completely screwed.
C. Pitch a fit to management/slashdot/etc about what sales did.
D. Burn the place down.
E. All of the above.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[EEBaum]

F. Jump ship.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[DaveV1.0]

F. Steal all the money and then burn the place down to cover your tracks.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[Surt]

I'm sorry, but the obvious answer is F.

F. Since the client signed a fixed price payment contract, with no spec required, you take a vacation and deliver them the nothing they agreed upon, and enjoy their money. Woo Hoo!

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[rs79]

F. Sigh, think to myself "eighth year of doing this" and get it done.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[192939495969798999]

It's not "no spec required"... it's "no spec". You still have to build what they "want". WAAH HA HA HA! The answer, obviously, is F. don't be there in the first place.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[Chapter80]

Perhaps I am biased, as a developer for sales, but I don't particularly see a problem with timeline and budget being overriding constraints of the specification.

In fact, our most successful projects are those that are time driven. The question is what are the minimal features to be included in this system, knowing that we cannot exceed one month development time.

It's similar to the old HP calculator specification "Build me a calculator that fits in my shirt pocket". That sort of constraint (or time or budget) has a tendency to limit feature-creep.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[Fulcrum of Evil]

A through D look like a step by step plan, not a set of alternatives.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[marcosdumay]

Deliver "Hello World" in a mounth... There where no specs...

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[cubicledrone]

Sales has agreed to build a system, and the client's already signed off on a fixed price payment. You have 1 month to build it until the budget runs out. There is no spec, no design document, and no way to confirm any given feature. What do you do?

Compile the largest single reference of riddles and answers in preparation for the next fuckwad series of interviews.

Re:Some more relevant questions:

[bscott]

> There is no spec, no design document, and no way to confirm any given feature. What do you do?

Check off "Tuesday" on the wall calendar, because this means it's time to go ask why my paycheck is late again.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[bladesjester]

I don't know. I don't have a master's and I've been contacted by two Google recruiters that were interested in me...

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[AKAImBatman]

Did they ever get back to you?

It's a good filter

[Opportunist]

Actually, I got my job that way. Basically, the catch was that they contacted me, and my interest came on when I saw that they used riddles to filter applicants.

It is a good filter when it comes to separating those who have relevant skills from those who are good at pretending. You can't cheat at "riddles". You can't talk and weasle out of them. You can't impress the interviewer. Don't forget that in HR, few if any people have relevant coding skills. Now, you want to hire a coder. The HR guy hasn't the foggiest what assembler or an export table is, but he should hire someone who can read assembler and understand foreign 80x86 code. How should he do it? Would you rather have the HR guy listen to someone rambling about his "achivements" and qualifications, or do you hand him a paper saying:

What does this do:
POP EBX
INC EBX
PUSH EBX
RET

(together with the correct answer, of course).

Which strategy do you think will give you the better qualified applicants for the final examination?

Re:It's a good filter

[ewhac]

What does this do:
POP EBX
INC EBX
PUSH EBX
RET

More often than not, crashes the machine.

Schwab

Re:It's a good filter

[wintermute42]

You certainly have a right to your opinion. It's great that there's a match between employers who do this sort of thing and people who like that sort of interview. I wrote a web page, Calculating Permutations and Job Interview Questions on this topic. What do I suggest for interview questions instead? How about detailed questions about the projects that the applicant has worked on, what exactly they did on these projects, how the solved the problems they encountered, how the software they wrote was structured, how they worked with other members of the team, how they dealt with conflict...

I will note, just in passing, that Soviet Russia has not existed for some time so the present tense of the sentence below seems misplaced.

In Soviet Russia, the government controls the commerce.

Re:It's a good filter

[Opportunist]

Let's imagine for a moment it is there for a purpose, not some hack.

Re:It's a good filter

[Anonymous Coward]

Just guessing, but it looks like the net effect of that subroutine is to increase the 32-bit value that is at top of stack.

You'd use it by branching to the top of the subroutine, and then the return would take you back tfrom whence you came.

Am I close (other than using the word "whence")?

Re:It's a good filter

[Anonymous Coward]

It returns to an instruction one byte past the caller. Now, the most common use I could see for this would be a debugger return from breakpoint interrupt (INT 3) instruction, which is a single byte, but in that case, you'd need RETI, not RET.

Re:It's a good filter

[Anonymous Coward]

If you call that, it'll skip a byte when it returns. Might be a good way to slightly confuse disassemblers.

Re:It's a good filter

[biobogonics]

What does this do:
POP EBX
INC EBX
PUSH EBX
RET

More often than not, crashes the machine.


Maybe so. A better question might be - Why would you want to use code like this or similar code? On the 65xx, one way of passing arguments to a subroutine was having them embedded in the code stream. So the return address is a pointer to your arguments. You deal with them, then adjust the return address to skip the arguments, push it, then return. So do I get the job???

Re:It's a good filter

[Anonymous Coward]

may be if it was EBP..

Re:It's a good filter

[Opportunist]

It's can actually be found in some anti-debugging mechanisms. The more sophisticated ones would kinda push the envelope of a test.

But congrats, you're in round two.

Can you imagine that about 90% of the people responding to an ad searching for people with "good to very good skills with 80x86 assembler" fail at it? And why I kinda like the idea of screening people with things like this?

Re:It's a good filter

[simishag]

I don't think this is what's meant by a "riddle." Your example is a test of specific knowledge, which may be highly relevant to the position. For instance, I would expect anyone applying for a sysadmin job to, in 15 minutes or less, be able to write a short shell script that moves some files, changing their names in the process. Everyday tasks aren't the kind of abstract riddles being discussed here.

Re:It's a good filter

[ewhac]

It returns to an instruction one byte past the caller.

Except that you can't make the assumption that the instruction following the caller is only one byte in size. Hence, my original comment.

Schwab

Fundamental technological skill

[RomulusNR]

Problem solving and creative thinking is an essential skill in technology, whether you are a developer, administrator, QA, etc.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[bladesjester]

Actually, I told them I wasn't interested. I don't want to live in Cal and I don't really care for the working practices that I've heard there having talked to people.

I've done the startup thing before. Insane hours are not my thing. Crunch time happens, but every day should not be a crunch. Life is for living. Even though you should enjoy your work, there are more important things than being at your desk for excessive periods of time.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[Breakfast Pants]

I think the important bit is that if they categorically don't go after anyone without a masters then they wouldn't have contacted him in the first place.

Job ad with the word [young] is illegal in Canada

[swit]

re: (excerpt):
        We are a looking to hire a dedicated PHP automation developer.
        Location is Montreal, Quebec, Canada;
        This is ideal for young, striving individuals that want to work............

I can't cite the specific section of Canadian law that makes this illegal
(and rightly so), but it is the SAME section that would also disallow this:

    "This is ideal for WHITE, striving individuals that want to work......."

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[treeves]

Maybe you only *thought* you completed the test perfectly. ;-)

College is a game

[nuggz]

Isn't a college degree just a symbol that says, "Look, a whole bunch of people with good reputations threw a bunch of puzzles at me.

No, it's mostly proof that you can play the game.
There are two games.
1. The technical education which is the following game.
They ask a question.
You determine what the real question is.
You find the right book.
You read how to answer the question.
You answer the question.

2. The People game.
You learn how to make people happy and play the politics and admin game. I think this is the real reason most education administrations are described as a nightmare, it's actually part of the learning experience.
Later you play the sales/job interview game. They're pretty much the same, only the product changes.

Re:College is a game

[Knara]

All of which are applicable to a corporate job.

But if you think you can get through a good CS program without learning puzzle solving or problem analysis, you're either an idiot or you went through a really bad CS program (which admittedly, are probably not in short supply).

Re:College is a game

[FacePlant]

3. That you can set long term goals and meet them. That you have the temprament to undertake something that lasts many years (like a career) and see it through.

Re:College is a game

[Tjp($)pjT]

You forgot the most important step...

No, it's mostly proof that you can play the game.
There are two games.
1. The technical education which is the following game.
They ask a question.
You determine what the real question is.
You find the right book.
You read how to answer the question.
You answer the question.

You determine the answer they really want.

Often the correct answer is not the one they think is correct due to numerous factors (like ambiguous questions or requirements) and sometimes there are just answers they don't see.

Re:College is a game

[vmalloc_]

People are progressively starting to realize that a poorly rounded CS degree and a huge college loan doesn't neccessarily make you good for a job. It used to be the main criteria, but that just doesn't fly anymore. I for one couldn't be happier that companies are starting to adopt ability-based hiring systems.

One of the reasons I dare say is that college students are getting lazy. They think they're entitled to an education and a good job (an arrogance not exactly helped by the pell grants, which are doing everything they can to drive college fees into the cosmos), so they don't take it as seriously as people used to. Thus, you get a lot of people who kindof learn, but don't really engorge in whatever they happen to be learning, and then they blame [whomever happens to be the President of the United States at the moment] when they get out of college and realize they're not just going to get a six figure job off the ball without doing any serious work. I'll never forget the time when I talked to a college student who had taken a course on relational databases, but had never used an SQL database before. Why not just learn about it on Wikipedia if you're not even going to try to apply the knowlege you're learning?

With these new systems (I hope), you'll need to show real ability rather than an expensive peice of paper that signifies that you kindof learned FORTRAN and boozed it up on the weekends. If it wasn't for a company that just did this for me, I would have never gotten a programming job. Good riddance to bad applicants.

Re:College is a game

[Anonymous Coward]

People who say:
"1. The technical education which is the following game.
They ask a question.
You determine what the real question is.
You find the right book.
You read how to answer the question.
You answer the question."

either didn't go to college or didn't go to a good college.

Re:Get out

[DesireCampbell]

"I for one, encode all my information in Dual-ROT13, this makes sure that people snooping will ignore it since I wouldn't be THAT dumb."

Small potatoes, I write in quadruple-reverse-ROT13.

Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[Cybert4]

The point is deriving. I don't care if anyone memorized it.

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[RingDev]

Exactly, but with out having the quadratic formula memorized, how are you going to test if they can derive it? If you provided them the formula and instructions for deriving it, it'll weed out those who can't read instructions, but most people can follow instructions. If you don't provide it, it will skew the timing and results in favor of those who have it memorized, regardless of their logical abilities.

-Rick

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[biobogonics]

Exactly, but with out having the quadratic formula memorized, how are you going to test if they can derive it?

Deriving the formula is a genaralization of a process called "completing the square". This process can be used to solve particular quadratic equations. It is a consequence of (a+b)**2 being a**2 + 2*a*b + b**2. It's been 35+ years since I studied this in school but if someone said "completing the square" I probably would remember how to derive it. Just don't ask me *exactly* how to extract a square root with pencil and paper. I know the method exists, but don't remember the exact deatails.

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[AuMatar]

THe quadratic formula is (-b+-sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a. I don't really see how to get from completing the square to that, since there's no c in completing the square.

Perhaps you're confusing the quadratic formula with how to get the square root of a number? That is a variation on completing the square, but the two have nothing to do with each other.

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[Pollardito]

try the first search result on Google for "deriving the quadratic formula"

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[MurphyZero]

The way to derive the quadratic formula is to complete the square. Start with ax^2 + bx + c=0. You then get it into x^2 + (b/a)x = -c/a. You then complete the square on the left side. The square you are completing is (x + b/2a)^2. The square is x^2 +(b/a)x +b^2/4a^2. adding b^2/4a^2 to both sides results in (x + b/2a)^2 = (b^2-4ac)/4a^2. Taking the square root of both sides leaves x + b/2a = +/- sqrt(b^2-4ac)/2a since the square root is dual valued. The final result is the well remembered quadratic formula, an essential part of algebra. Cubic and quartic formulas are more complicated.

Re:Deriving is key for quadratic formula

[kumanopuusan]

ax^2+bx+c=0
x^2+b/a*x+c/a=0
x^2+b/a*x+(b/2a)^2-( b/2a)^2+c/a=0
#The above step completes the square
(x+b/2a)^2-(b/2a)^2+c/a=0
(x+b/2a)^2-(b^2 -4ac)/(4a^2)=0
(x+b/2a)^2=(b^2-4ac)/(4a^2)
x+b/2 a=+-(b^2-4ac)^(1/2)/(4a^2)^(1/2)
x+b/2a=+-(b^2-4a c)^(1/2)/2a
x=-b/2a+-(b^2-4ac)^(1/2)/2a
x=(-b+-( b^2-4ac)^(1/2))/2a

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[bladesjester]

That was indeed my point.

The first time, I said I was interested and it ended up not going anywhere (though, amusingly, I did get mentioned on hiremegoogle). The second time was after I had heard more about the work environment, so I told them I wasn't really that interested (plus the fact that California doesn't really appeal to me.).

They were actually quite nice about the whole thing, so I later talked to a friend of mine who was interested in working for them (and who I thought would have been a really good match), and forwarded the recruiter's contact details to him.

better than most interview questions

[bunions]

but still not such a great idea, IHMO. I don't see what's so hard about finding some small chunk of an actual problem you had a while back and asking someone to solve it. That's what I've done every time I interviewed someone and it generally works pretty well.

I just can't see saying "Wow, Bob isn't working out really well. I can't figure out why, though - he did so great decyphering that message and solving the riddle of the Wizards Cave that I gave him as a test."

Re:As long as they do it for every other employee.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06

^0xFF

[AKAImBatman]

AA 8C 96 91 98 DF AD B0 AB CE CC DF 8B 90 DF 93 90
90 94 DF 8C 92 9E 8D 8B DF 96 8C DF 8D 9E 8B 97 9A
8D DF 8F 8D 9A 8B 9A 91 8B 96 90 8A 8C D3 DF 9B 90
91 D8 8B DF 86 90 8A DF 8B 97 96 91 94 C0

Re:^0xFF

[pizza_milkshake]

A6 9A 8C

Re:^0xFF

[AKAImBatman]

A6 90 8A 8D DF 9E 91 8C 88 9A 8D DF 88 9E 8C
DF 91 90 8B DF 9C 8D 86 8F 8B 90 98 8D 9E 8F
97 96 9C 9E 93 93 86 DF 8C 9A 9C 8A 8D 9A D1
DF BE DF 8C 96 92 8F 93 9A DF 86 9A 8C DF 90
8D DF 91 90 DF 92 9E 86 DF 90 9D 8C 9C 8A 8D
9A DF 8B 97 9A DF 8E 8A 9A 8C 8B 96 90 91 D3
DF 9D 8A 8B DF 96 91 DF 9C 8D 86 8F 8B 90 98
8D 9E 8F 97 86 DF 96 8B DF 9C 9E 91 DF 98 96
89 9A DF 9E 88 9E 86 DF 8B 97 9A DF 9C 90 91
8B 9A 91 8B 8C D1 DF B6 91 DF 8B 97 96 8C DF
9C 9E 8C 9A D3 DF CC DF 9C 97 9E 8D 9E 9C 8B
9A 8D 8C DF 88 9E 8C DF 90 9D 89 96 90 8A 8C
93 86 DF 9E DF 86 9A 8C D1 DF C4 D2 D6

Re:^0xFF

[fritsd]

4e 6f 75 20 6e 65 65 6d 20 6a 69 6a 20 61 61 6e
20 64 61 74 20 68 65 74 20 61 6e 74 77 6f 6f 72
64 20 69 6e 20 68 65 74 20 65 6e 67 65 6c 73 20
67 65 67 65 76 65 6e 20 77 61 73 ! :-)

Re:^0xFF

[Richard Steiner]

76 30 16 14 15 76 75 75 75 05
15 12 35 05 16 30 05 30 24 05
07 24 27 16 23 14 55 05 15 12
15 55 05 51 13 23 24 27 11 40

Re:^0xFF

[AKAImBatman]

BD 9E 8C 8B 9E 8D 9B D1 DF BB 90 DF 86 90 8A
DF 94 91 90 88 DF 97 90 88 DF 92 9E 91 86 DF
9C 8D 86 8F 8B 9E 91 9E 93 86 8C 96 8C DF 9E
93 98 90 8C DF B6 DF 8B 8D 96 9A 9B DF 9D 9A
99 90 8D 9A DF B6 DF 8D 9A 9E 93 96 85 9A 9B
DF 86 90 8A DF 88 9A 8D 9A DF 8C 8F 9A 9E 94
96 91 98 DF 9B 8A 8B 9C 97 C0 DF C5 D2 BB

Re:^0xFF

[fritsd]

:-)
sorry I couldn't resist the temptation to undermine a basic assumption.
Translation (you probably got it already):
"Now you assume that the answer was given in english!"

Re:^0xFF

[AKAImBatman]

sorry I couldn't resist the temptation to undermine a basic assumption.

:D

Unfortunately, it's still not secure. Simply sending a short message like "Yes", "No, "Ja", "Nee", "Nein", "Da", "Nyet" practically guarantees that a dictionary attack will be successful in breaking your encryption. It's not like crytoanalysts have never considered the impact of other languages. Yet the only language that has ever been successfully used as a code is Navajo.

Translation (you probably got it already)

That I did. Even in Dutch, the general meaning wasn't too hard to figure out. I reckoned that it was probably a simple scramble like a letter shift using Fibonacci or something. Once I realized it was Dutch, it wasn't too hard to get a proper translation. ;)

Re:^0xFF

[pizza_milkshake]

B0 B4

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[AKAImBatman]

Maybe you only *thought* you completed the test perfectly. ;-)

I did consider that. However, I'm pretty certain my answers were correct. If I showed you the form (which I won't do, as I do respect their confidentiality), I think you'd find the answers to be correct as well. :)

Just when I thought interviewing techniques...

[Quiet_Desperation]

...couldn't get dumber. This is flavor of the week type of stuff, folks. I'm lousy at riddles, but I win design award after design award plus bonuses in my engineering job. I have several patents. I'm sorry, but I just have very little patience for these Grand Unified Theories Of Everything when it comes to dealing with human beings. It just strikes me as HR people looking for ever lazier ways to hire the talent.

Also, Our IT people have that site blocked. I wonder what that riddle means?

Re:Just when I thought interviewing techniques...

[qsqueeq]

Your IT people are idiots.

Re:Just when I thought interviewing techniques...

[StormReaver]

"Just when I thought interviewing techniques couldn't get dumber."

When I was interviewing for my first professional job many years ago, I was abused with a few "logic" puzzles during the interview. In order to be polite, I endured them when I was really thinking that I should just walk out the door with my middle finger high in the air. I vowed to do that very thing to the next interviewer who tried that same retarded line of questioning (it didn't happen again, so I didn't get the chance).

If the interviewer has nothing more relevant to ask than how long it takes the entire rock band to get across the damn bridge, then that place it just begging to collapse under the weight of its own stupidity. If you ever find yourself in that kind of interview, run -- don't walk -- to the door as fast as you possibly can.

Re:Just when I thought interviewing techniques...

[Quiet_Desperation]

Your IT people are idiots.

Tell me about it. :(

Re:Just when I thought interviewing techniques...

[Quiet_Desperation]

And the *really* stupid thing is: did the candidate answer the riddle because he has mystical Jedi problem solving skills, or because he simply heard it before on the Internet because the SAME FOUR RIDDLES get used over and over again!

don't flipp'n care about puzzels

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Personally I really don't frean'k care about the croswords or sudoku or whatever.

You wanna pay me to do crosswords, or do you want to pay me to analyize, build and integrate systems.

I interview lots of people, and I only have one question that needs answering: "Do I want to work with this person?" (Of course someone can't do the job I don't want to work with. :-P )

Much of the interest isn't "Can you solve this?" its "How do you solve this?" My parents have no idea what they're talking about when they have a question like "up, down, top, bottom, strange". With good interview questions the thought process is much more important than the anwser. About the only thing crosswords are good because the see how well a person can cross-reference obscure references in they're head. Potentially very useful in some situations, but not a good yardstick.

Re:don't flipp'n care about puzzels

[Deltaspectre]

question like "up, down, top, bottom, strange"

Is the answer 'charm'?

Re:don't flipp'n care about puzzels

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Yes, obvious to the present audience.

But most non-technical people are going to get it, they're going to call the local geek.

Solution?

[cs02rm0]

<?php
if (!isset($_POST['name'])) {
    echo '<form action="index.php" method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data" name="job" id="job">                <p><u>PHP Automation Programer</u></p><table width="100%"><tr><td width="54%">Name:</td><td width="46%"><input name="name" type="text" id="bottomline" size="22" maxlength="25" /></td></tr><tr><td>                  Email:</td><td><input name="email" type="text" id="bottomline" size="22" maxlength="25" /></td></tr><tr>                  <td>Attach your resume (rtf/doc/txt):</td><td><input name="incoming_file" type="file" id="bottomline" size="10" /></td></tr>                  <tr>                  <td>Attach the source of your code (.php.txt):</td><td><input name="incoming_source" type="file" id="bottomline" size="10" /></td></tr>                  <tr><td colspan="2"><br />                    Describe yourself in a few words, and why you think you are good at this:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><div align="center">  <textarea name="about" cols="30" rows="5" id="bottomline"></textarea>  <br />  <br />  <INPUT TYPE="hidden" name="hash" value="c30be2aa1fb78f98f4ff30ef2ce2692d">  <input type="submit" name="Submit" value="Submit" id="bottomb" /></div></td></tr></table></form>';
} else {
    $url = 'http://proveyourworth.com/index.php?p=auto_submit ';
    $useragent='SCOOBY DOOBY DOOBY DOO WHERE ARE YOU';
    $ch = curl_init();
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_USERAGENT, $useragent);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_URL,$url);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POST, 6);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'name='.$_POST['name']);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'email='.$_POST['email']);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'hash=c30be2aa1fb78f98f4ff30ef2 ce2692d');
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'incoming_file='.$_POST['incomi ng_file']);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'incoming_source='.$_POST['inco ming_source']);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'about='.$_POST['about']);
    curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POSTFIELDS,'p=auto_submit');
    $result= curl_exec ($ch);
    curl_close ($ch);
    print $result;
}
?>

Re:Solution?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say this is probably pretty close to what they're looking for.

Except for their javascript tracking thing. Nice try, though.

(HAHA it looks like slashdot killed their JS script host, how's THAT for problem solving?)

But they do care about your resume...

[Jo_2521]

Ok, first of all - that riddle on http://www.proveyourworth.net/ isn't.

I took the most obvious way after seeing that url in the bottom and had a look in the source: Now, the good thing, it probably prepares you for work at this company: It's full off HTML 3.2 evilness wrapped in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional header, has an invalid tag that contains the solution and is sprinkled with css in places you might not expect.

Alright, so after you've pasted http://www.proveyourworth.net/?p=begin&mistake=lit tle and expect your insta-hire you're greeted by a site that wants - your resume.

So what exactly is new about this? I remember Google doing it a few years back?

On the other hand, there might be a real riddle and what they did with that "little" was just to weed out the jerks like me... that would certainly be impressive! :)

Re:But they do care about your resume...

[cs02rm0]

There is a little more in that you have to use PHP to automate the form submission.

Hell of an ugly thing to do though so it just adds to your previous points.

Re:But they do care about your resume...

[treffy]

Uhm, not that simple. the little thing is just first step I gather. Definitely more to it than meets the eye.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[AKAImBatman]

The first rule is that there's always exceptions to the rule. ;-)

Google appears to pursue non-degreed people in a couple of different situations:

1. The early responders to their public Quiz sheet they put out a little while back.
2. You have a project, product, or unique knowledge they wish to acquire.
3. The position is not in a development area of the company, but is in a supporting function. (e.g. Customer Relations, Tech Ops, etc.)

Unfortunately, things seem to NOT work out with Google more often than they do. I remember a couple of fellows who were in category 2 and went in for interviews with Google. Google ended up turning them down, again for reasons unknown.

It's just *weird* working with Google. At times, even frustrating. There's absolutely zero visibility into the company and their practices. And from what I know from Google insiders, it doesn't get any better once you're there. I'm left to wonder if they're not having some growing pains as the company gets larger and larger. Being as meticulous as they usually are, I imagine that they're still trying to work out the best way of growing beyond a relatively small set of braniacs.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[treeves]

Actually, I probably wouldn't know whether they were right or wrong. I'm not a programmer. In fact, to prove my ignorance: I took FORTRAN and PASCAL in college over ten years ago. My knowledge of programming doesn't go much farther than that. I do like puzzles of various kinds and am pretty good at taking tests, even in areas I haven't specifically learned, but I know nothing about PHP. Can I stress the "nothing" part again.? ;-)

goofy interview puzzles have been around

[ClosedSource]

a long time before Google. It's usually an indication that the company is insecure about their own abilities and need some confirmation that they are better than everyone else.

If you don't care about the job and want to do a public service, bring a puzzle of your own and ask the interviewer to solve it. When they refuse or fail to solve it, they may be a bit more reluctant to do it in the future.

Re:Job ad with the word [young] is illegal in Cana

[XXcaro]

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/charter/charter.sect.h tml

Re:Job ad with the word [young] is illegal in Cana

[JorDan Clock]

It says ideal, not required. They're trying to appeal to a certain group, not restrict to only them.

For real?

[Cybert4]

I think there are laws against straight-up volunteering. But trying to get in at, say, $8/hour for high level work? I don't see that happening. Maybe if it's an experimental project. Does that ever work?

I'd work for free if it helps me network enough to get a good permanent job.

Re:For real?

[DaveV1.0]

For real. Now, this will work best at a small to medium sized company where such things will not be hard.

There is no law that says you can't volunteer to work for a company for free for a short period to demostrate your abilities. You would not be considered an employee. You would be a volunteer.

You mention $8/hr. That would be $16/hr for normal pay. That is a salary of $33k. A company might be leery of hiring someone to do high level work for $8/hr permanently. But, we are talking about that. This is a reduced pay during evaluation kind of thing. The longer you work there, they more you get paid. If you don't work out, they are not out that much money. If you do work out, they got a good employee at a bargin price for the first few weeks.

And, if you are willing to work for free to network, volunteer to help some non-profits in your area. Make contacts with the other volunteers.

Pretty much it.

[Cybert4]

Penrose had a different solution in his book, "Road to Reality". I like this one, though.

RET?

[Cybert4]

I thought most optimized code is flattened out--these RETs can really kill CPU efficiency with all the tweaks the latest processors have.

Re:RET?

[Jamie Lokier]

On the contrary, modern CPUs have had RET-prediction for about 10 years now, and RET-prediction is almost always correct, so there's little or no pipeline penalty. It's better to have subroutines if they save cache space, than to flatten out code. That's why you see some routines being uninlined in the Linux kernel source, these days. There is still the overhead of setting up call arguments etc., so it's not always gainful. Register arguments help with that.

Re:RET?

[Cybert4]

Yeah, registers work until you get recursion. And the branch predictors are pretty good now (unconditional branches are nearly perfect--if it weren't for aliasing due to bit restrictions). But, you also have bunches more cache.

I'd rather see nice clean source (yeah, uninlined) than trying to guess the latest microarchitecture fad.

How about rewriting?

[Cybert4]

I took two separate (rather poorly done) PERL scripts and combined them into one ruby script. Changing languages helped me understand the code better.

Re:How about rewriting?

[Opportunist]

One perfect example. But more often than not, you have to deal with a whole lot more code than you could translate to some other language in reasonable time. I know at least of two projects that are still done in VB, for the simple reason that the original team didn't know any other languages and the code has grown so far by now that it is virtually impossible to convert it to some other language within reasonable (i.e. affordable) time.

I'm very glad I'm no longer associated with the product. And no, I was decidedly NOT on the original team. I'd love to know what hacks were originally there so I could hang them from the tower.

best credentials

[TLouden]

if you were a manager looking for a wrestler, wouldn't you want to test their physical strength?

IT is now so much about problem solving, why not test potential employees ability to do just that.
While it might once have been possible to already know everything about a technology which one was responible for maintaining, that's no longer how the industry works. When there's a new problem, we google. The better problem solver is the better hire.

Re:best credentials

[cubicledrone]

IT is now so much about problem solving, why not test potential employees ability to do just that.

They have a degree. They don't have to take tests any more. Thanks.

Re:best credentials

[TLouden]

I know those ones. Had the pleasure of working with one last year. He was let go for attitude and inability to do his job (which is saying a lot considering it was in a government run school).

Seriously, if you think you're done with test after school then you don't belong in these types of jobs.

Re:best credentials

[cubicledrone]

He was let go for attitude

Nice try backfilling the "inability to do his job" part. He was let go because he didn't agree with people even when they were wrong. Middle management doesn't want employees. They want control. They don't want to get the job done. They want someone to blame.

Seriously, if you think you're done with test after school then you don't belong in these types of jobs.

There is no reason to "test" someone for an entry-level phone-answering job or an entry-level programming job. Employees should be hired and trained to do their jobs. Having a college degree ON ITS FACE qualifies someone beyond the need for testing.

There are two post-graduate "tests" that have any credibility for jobs that do not require formal training: the bar exam, and a medical board. Other than that, all other pre-employment qualification "tests" are bullshit. Period.

Re:best credentials

[TLouden]

You don't understand what I was saying.

His attitude was to suck up to management and piss on anybody he considered below him. I list that as a reason because he tried to take advantage of one of the students at the school on a business deal and it was brought to the attention of the administration.

The lack of skill was also a problem because the department is overloaded (typical inner city school budget) and can't afford anybody who doesn't solve existing problems. The majority of his time was spent trying to solve a problem that didn't exist and was going to cost too much.

OK, you got me.

[Cybert4]

I should really provide the formula (the end formula--no instructions at all). It's been awhile--don't remember if I did.

Thought Processes

[theunixman]

Seeing a possible candidate breaking down the problem of writing a web server in an hour and studying how they approach it is far more telling about them than typical interview questions. Most candidates would throw up their hands and say "It can't be done", which demonstrates completely that they aren't the kinds of people who should be working there.

Re:Thought Processes

[Monkelectric]

I disagree heartily. Saying "it cant' be done" could equally be the response of a battle hardened veteran who isn't willing to go into a battle he has no hope of exiting.

That was what I learned about myself during the test. That *I* ignored my own good sense that the task was not reasonable, and that a true master would not have.

Re:Thought Processes

[Sancho]

Exactly. They may not have actually wanted a complete working product.. they probably wanted to see what you thought of their task, see what assumptions you made, see if you could convince them that their timeline was infeasible, etc.

I knew a guy who went into an interview and was asked to solve some intractable problem. He was able to point out that their request wasn't feasible and provided some alternate options. This story wouldn't be interesting, of course, if he hadn't gotten the job.

I suspect that even if a person couldn't have written a webserver in C++ in 4 hours, they might still have had a shot at the job depending upon how they approached the problem.

Re:Thought Processes

[EastCoastSurfer]

I agree, but the original poster said they emailed him this 'problem' to work on over the weekend. At no point were they watching a possible candidate break down the problem of writing a web server in an hour and studying how they approach it.

Re:Thought Processes

[kabz]

There aren't a whole lot of things you can't prototype up in a few hours armed with only a few basic data structures.

Most of the problem is having the experience and guts to pick an approach and start.

I think there's a whole raft of IT people / developers out there who can cut and paste, but may never have actually created something. That's pretty sad.

Re:As long as they do it for every other employee.

[Anonymous Coward]

You for got one.

IT
        "Do you know what B.O.F.H. is? Do you know who the P.F.Y. is? Now, go check the power cable on that printer while holding this lamp. (BZZZT..... thud)"

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, first thing I did was run their page through http://validator.w3.org/ It came back with nine validation errors, and their code is pretty ugly. So I don't think I'll bother pursuing it any further.

Re:Job ad with the word [young] is illegal in Cana

[Anonymous Coward]

In general, in this kind of thing, you're not even allowed to MENTION it. The mere fact of mentioning it indicates a discriminatory preference.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[charlesnw]

Exactly. I interviewed at google and got the impression it was a sweat shop. I detailed in a Blog Post why I won't work there (at least as an engineer. I would do consulting on hiring practices). They are way to secretive for my liking. I work for Disney and am very happy.

My experience with riddles...

[glhturbo]

I was asked this after submitting my resume to a company who shall remain nameless. I recently saw it on another job post from another company, so I think it's OK to post :-):

You and a friend are about to eat a pizza. You both consume pizza at precise rates: it always takes you x seconds to eat a slice of pizza, and it takes your friend y seconds. Once the pizza is cut, you will both start eating at the same time. Each person can eat only one slice at a time. You cannot touch the next piece until you finish the one you're eating. Out of generosity, you have agreed in advance to allow your friend to have the last slice if you should both happen to reach for it at the same time. Assuming that you would like as much of the pizza as possible to end up in your stomach, into how many equal-sized slices should you cut the pizza?

I answered, but was rejected.

My answer was: If I eat faster, then cut into 3 slices. If I eat at the same rate or slower, cut into two pieces.

Anyone got any better?

Also, I think I am a solid coder, with 13+ years of experience, and not a single negative review or comment. Somehow, though, none of that mattered, nor did my education or anything else. My answer was "wrong", so I was rejected. Initially, I was mad because I was "wrong", but I got over it... My main problem is that you cannot discuss the answer with someone, nor ask questions, nor describe your thought process. Just give the answer.

I have used riddles before, but only face-to-face, to encourage the person to tell me their thought process. The answer was irrelevant, as long as they could think it out ...

Ah well, I suspect web sites with "correct" answers to these will pop up, and render them irrelevant ... hopefully :-)

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't the answer be X+Y slices?

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

If x > y
    then cut Ceil[x/y]+1 slices
else
    cut 2

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

My answer was: If I eat faster, then cut into 3 slices. If I eat at the same rate or slower, cut into two pieces.

If you eat faster, then you want the pizza cut into as many sub-slices as possible. If you are ten times faster and cut the pizza into 10 pieces then you'll be able to eat 9/10 of the pizza before your friend finishes 1/10.

In the extreme limit, if you are arbitrarily faster than the other guy, and the pizza is cut into a infinite number of slices, then you'll eat the entire pizza and your friend will eat an infinitessimally small piece (i.e.: nothing). So my answer would be:

"Assuming that I truly want to eat as much pizza as possible, then:
If x is greater than y the pizza should be divided into as many pieces as possible (ideally an infinite number).
If x is less than y the pizza should be divided into two pieces.

However it would be most courteous to cut the pizza into two pieces."

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Chapter80]

The trick is in the wording. The answer is "don't cut the pizza - just eat it".

Hand this problem to the person you are planning to eat with. While he's solving the puzzle, scarf down the pizza.

Once the pizza is cut, you will both start eating at the same time.

Eat, don't cut.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[mirrorrim]

Given no knowledge of x and y, cut the pizza into as many slices as possible. You will consume the amount of pizza proportional to your relative eating rate.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Quadrature]

I think you're right on the "If I eat at the same rate or slower" answer but on the "I eat faster" side wouldn't you want find out how much faster you eat than your friend in order to optimize the the slices you get? Basically solve for the maximum value m in the following equation:

x + m(x) < y

Then m is the extra number of slices above 3 you want the pie because you will get to them before your friend finishes his first slice.

For example: x = 10 seconds, y = 15 seconds

m here is 0 since you can't finish your second slice before your friend is done with his first. But say your friend chews more thoroughly than you: x = 10 seconds, y = 35 seconds

In this case m = 2 so you want the pie in 5 (3 + 2) slices because you can eat 3 slices and start your 4th before your friend finishes his 1st, thus you get 4/5 (80%) of the pie instead of 2/3 (66%). The slower your friend eats, the more pie you get.

Of course all this assumes you know x and y. If you don't get those I would have come up with your answer as well.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[glhturbo]

This seems to make sense ... alas, too late :-)

However, I still have no earthly clue what this puzzle has to do with my coding skills...

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is (y/x) + 1, rounded up, slices.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god you're anonymous, because you're an idiot who would not be hired.

1) Learn to read the problem. X is the amount of time it takes YOU to eat, Y is the amount of time it takes YOUR FRIEND to eat. Your solution cuts more slices when your friend eats faster.

2) Learn to reduce redundancy.

If x > y
        then cut Ceil[x/y]+1 slices
else
        cut 2

Can be reduced to

Cut Ceil[x/y]+1 slices (since it's impossible for x to be equal to zero)

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Grishnakh]

That's weird. Your answer to the problem seems to be exactly correct.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[grolschie]

The trick is in the wording. The answer is "don't cut the pizza - just eat it". Hand this problem to the person you are planning to eat with. While he's solving the puzzle, scarf down the pizza.

Once the pizza is cut, you will both start eating at the same time.

Eat, don't cut.

Oh well, you now have given your friend the entire pizza. If you don't cut the pizza, then the entire pizza is the last piece. From the GP:

"Out of generosity, you have agreed in advance to allow your friend to have the last slice if you should both happen to reach for it at the same time. "

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Quadrature]

All this talk of infinite slices made we wonder if I had it wrong but I'm pretty sure you don't want that as the solution. As you approach infinite slices you'll eat the same percentage of the pie as your friend's per slice time is a percentage of the combined value of both your per slice times. Take my x = 10, y = 35 example. The y value is 77.7777...% of the combined time (35/45).

In the 5 slice solution you get 80% of the pie. Now let's divide up into more slices:

If the total slices is 6, then the time to eat them (t) all will be:

t/x + t/y = 6

Solving for t gives us t = 6 / (1/x + 1/y) which with our x and y values gives us 46.666... t/x is 4.666 and t/y is 1.333. Since your friend would start his second piece before you could start your 5th (you know this because your partial piece time of .666 isn't higher than the .777 required to get there first) he gets 2 and you get 4 so your percentage of the pie is worse (4/6 or 66.666%) than in the 5 piece scenario.

Going up to 7 slices you get 5 of the 7 for 71.43%. At 8 you get 72.73%, etc... The pattern you get is the percentage you get oscillating around 77.777% with the variations approaching 0 as the number of slices increases. So infinite slices isn't the answer for maximum percentage of the pie, you have to take advantage of the fact that as long as you get to the last slice before your friend you can take as long as you need to finish it.

Damn. Way too much thought on a math problem.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[cubicledrone]

Also, I think I am a solid coder, with 13+ years of experience, and not a single negative review or comment. Somehow, though, none of that mattered, nor did my education or anything else. My answer was "wrong", so I was rejected.

NEVERTHELESS THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO WILL CLAIM WITH CERTAINTY THAT THE EMPLOYER WAS CORRECT AND JUSTIFIED BECAUSE MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR NEIGHBORS.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Dilaudid]

Sounds more like a quant question - there's a book called "heard on the street" which collects together many of the questions asked at interviews for quant jobs. The first chapter is general logic and then it goes into options maths. Apparently this question really was asked at interview: "How can 3 men and 1 woman each have mutually safe heterosexual sex with only 2 condoms? Assume condoms cannot break or tear, and cannot be washed". Apparently there's also a (theoretical) solution with 3 women and one man.

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

NOoo, he doesn't get to "Reach for it"... he's busy trying to solve this stupid problem!

Re:My experience with riddles...

[Anonymous Coward]

well you can do all the math and stuff, but I'm rather sure that the employer would like a simple answer like: 2

It's a common mistake for people to overestimate themselfes, but as we do not know what neither x or y is, 2 makes sure you have at least half. You might finish earlier, but you cannot lose anything.

In most businesses it is very expensive to exceed a deadline, so they rather play sure than gamble. But of course if it's a really agressive company, they would like you to say infinite, just not sure I would invest in a company like that... remember the dotcom bubble?

Exactly!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's basically impossible to write code that actually does anything except pure computation in C++ without an external library. You can theoretically compute something based on the given program arguments and return a (7-bit?) result (exit code) without using libraries, but that's about it.

I would have just thrown it back in their faces and said "Sorry, your requirements are contrived and unrealistic; if you can't be bothered to come up with a realistic test, I'm not going to bother answering. Good day."

Re:Exactly!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can theoretically compute something based on the given program arguments and return a (7-bit?) result (exit code) without using libraries, but that's about it.

If you can return a 7-bit result, I'll hire you.

Re:Exactly!

[tricorn]

You can obviously use the libraries defined by standard C/C++, they are part of the language, they are NOT "external libraries". Look to the standard to figure out what you can and can't use. Just because most implementations of C/C++ link in the standard libraries dynamically doesn't mean they are "external libraries". You obviously aren't right for the job if you're going to take a dumb hard-line hyper-literal attitude like that.

Re:Exactly!

[smithmc]

  You can obviously use the libraries defined by standard C/C++, they are part of the language, they are NOT "external libraries"

But the sockets library is not part of the C++ Standard. It is platform-specific.

Re:Exactly!

[tricorn]

Depends on if you want to call the operating system a "library", and if so, if it is an "external" library. You're right that "ANSI standard C/C++" doesn't include sockets. It also doesn't include a whole lot of things that any program that wants to do anything other than manipulate stdin/stdout/stderr and regular files would need. There are, however, a whole lot of standards. In a POSIX environment, using the "standard C library" for that system would not be an "external" library. Depending on the system call interface, there may not even be any of those POSIX calls implemented, even as wrappers, in a loadable library.

It's sad really.

[Maxo-Texas]

You take people like that-- with those skills-- with all that talent--

And then you put then in an environment where they have to estimate a project and fill out *five* different forms and submit them to a project management office before they can do any real work. It may be months before the approved project gets back to them if it ever does. Then there are more forms- more procedures to follow- more self-audits, cross audits, CMP "self" goals, and on and on. The joy is squeezed out of it. Some coders change as few as a few lines of code per quarter-- the rest is paperwork and testing.

A more appropriate test would involve following written procedures- filling out lots of forms- and changing the procedures once in a while during the testing without updating any kind of master procedure document.

Where are you working?

[Cybert4]

Consider that somewhere else, a company that doesn't have such procedures is your competitor. Sure, there's a lot of crap to make the most wide-eyed transhumanist jaded. But we supposedly have a capitalistic system that should encourage efficiency.

Re:Where are you working?

[Grishnakh]

Sounds like he works for the government. There's no real capitalism or competition there, just endless beaurocracy. Of course, with so many jobs being outsourced offshore, government jobs may be a good, stable place for IT people now.

Wrong

[Cybert4]

Say you can eat at an infinite pace. You want to cut it into as many slices as possible then, right? That alone says that your answer is wrong. I don't have the right answer, but I can say this.

That's how we did it

[tf23]

That's how we hired our last one. By demonstrated-skillset, attitude and "seems like he'll fit in"-value.

I didn't give two squats about his resume's credentials. Though, his cover letter and what was mentioned on his resume did get his foot in the door for the first interview.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[bladesjester]

Agreed. I had enough of 70-80 hour weeks when I was an undergrad (I worked my way through college as an admin/network analyst so my schedule was horrid and nasty).

It looks like the main difference between what you had and what I had was that you were getting emails from Modis about positions at google, and I was dealing with the google people themselves (largely, I think, because of the work I did with the magazine). It was flattering, but no thank you.

job == good;
job that allows for no free time == not good;

Past Predicates Future

[rumblin'rabbit]

Our department has a fairly coherent hiring procedure. It's based on a single observation:

How well a candidate did in their previous jobs is an excellent predictor of how well they will do on their next job.

Blindingly obvious, when you think about it. It is certainly a sounder basis for hiring than the candidate's ability to solve Sudoku.

This means that references count for a lot. They should be structured - in other words, you should have prepared questions. You don't just chat.
The good news is that references tend to remarkably honest about candidates (and there are ways of telling if they are). The bad news is that people are getting more reluctant, for legal reasons, to give reference interviews.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[Chapter80]

"If this candidate were elegible, would you hire them again?"
"Would you entrust your business to this person's programming skills?"
"If you had a difficult technical problem with a key customer, would you turn it over to this person?"
"Would you stake your professional career on this person's ability to [program | show up on time | meet a deadline | deliver against a commitment]?
"Would you entrust this person to write the software to control a device that would mean life-or-death to you?"

Re:Past Predicates Future

[rumblin'rabbit]

All good questions, although I would probably pass on the last one.

We have a list of about 20 questions. Some are mundane ("What was your working relation with the candidate? How long did you know them? Under what circumstances did the candidate leave the company? How good of a C++ programmer was the candidate? How good of a speaker/writer was the candidate?")

You should also ask what new initiatives the employee introduced. Were they a leader or a follower? This is important in knowing how to handle the employee after they have been hired.

Some of the important questions are about how well the candidate gets along with other employees. Being brilliant at puzzles is nearly useless if you are the world's biggest jerk. I would not want to work for a company where the ability to solve puzzles is the overriding hiring criteria.

Some of the most revealing are "What are the candidate's strongest points?", "What is the candidate's weakest points?", "What types of jobs is this candidate NOT suited for?". If there are no weak points, I would view the information with skepticism.

And at the end "Is there anything else you would like to add?" That one often has a surprizing answer.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[Chapter80]

And at the end "Is there anything else you would like to add?" That one often has a surprizing answer.

Agree! It's amazing, even those people who are not allowed to give ANY information, will go through a prepared question list answering very cautiously. Then the open ended one at the end, they spill it! Like they have been holding back, and feel guilty.

My favorite one, when hiring a bookkeeper: "Would you trust this person with your personal checking account?"

Re:Past Predicates Future

[cubicledrone]

Were they a leader or a follower? This is important in knowing how to handle the employee after they have been hired.

Leaders don't get hired. Modern corporate management is incompetent to employ leaders.

Some of the important questions are about how well the candidate gets along with other employees. Being brilliant at puzzles is nearly useless if you are the world's biggest jerk

And of course, the opinion of a former employer is conclusive proof that someone is the "world's biggest jerk." The possibility the employer is a fucking asscrack isn't even considered, naturally.

And at the end "Is there anything else you would like to add?" That one often has a surprizing answer.

Sure! It's an invitation to take a giant shit on somebody. Why management can't just hire people and get the job done is truly beyond me.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[rumblin'rabbit]

My but we're negative today! Even, dare I say it, a bit trollish. But I have a perverse fondness for trolls, so I'll respond:

Leaders don't get hired. Modern corporate management is incompetent to employ leaders.

That's a tad cynical, but when I talk about leadership, I'm not talking about Winston Churchill here. If we are trying to hire someone for a non-leadership role, it would be a mistake to choose someone who is incapable of following. Likewise, if we are hiring someone for a supervisory position, it's a mistake to choose someone who doesn't have at least minimal leadership skills.

The possibility the employer is a fucking asscrack isn't even considered, naturally.

Most of the reference names are provided by the candidate him/herself. The candidate is not likely to give references who are down on them. It is, however, good to find your own reference from someone you know and trust. Also never use just one reference - minimum of three. That way, it becomes pretty obvious if one reference has an agenda.

Remember, it's not to the company's benefit to slag candidates unjustly. We need accurate assessments.

Why management can't just hire people and get the job done is truly beyond me.

Typically you have a number of candidates for a single position. For certain jobs, choosing the right candidate versus the wrong one can mean millions of dollars (seriously). You need some way to try to make the right decision. References are one tool (not the only one you should use, but I think the most valuable) to help you make that right decision.

I'm truly interested - how do you suggest hiring be done?

Re:Past Predicates Future

[cubicledrone]

it would be a mistake to choose someone who is incapable of following

An implication that leaders are incapable of following. This is one reason corporate middle management is incapable of employing leaders. Effective management is to give someone a job and LET THEM DO IT. Modern management is give someone a job, sabotage it, then fire them and take their paycheck. The purpose now is not to get the job done. The purpose now is to stuff all the money into middle management pockets and take a three-hour lunch.

he candidate is not likely to give references who are down on them.

Which obviates the entire issue of the "world's biggest jerk."

You need some way to try to make the right decision.

Corporate middle management would interpret that as "a justification that can be scapegoated when the manager makes the wrong decision." Here's the deal:

1. Inability to take responsibility.
2. Dishonesty
3. Greed
4. Irrational aversion to risk
5. Contempt for fellow employees
6. Incompetence
7. Obsessive documentation of trivial work
8. Making up words to euphemize common sense
9. The use of layoffs and arbitrary mass firings as a routine cost control measure
10. Total inability to produce anything except carbon dioxide and methane.

This is corporate middle management. They cannot do their jobs, so they blame everyone else. Our workplaces are REPLETE with these people, and they are destroying neighborhoods, families, careers and educations on a daily basis. It wasn't this way one generation ago.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[rumblin'rabbit]

I never once said that someone could not be both a good follower and a good leader. Indeed, the two often go together. I said you shouldn't ask someone who can't follow to follow, or ask somone who can't lead to lead. Seems like common sense to me.

I don't know what experiences you've had in business, but you should really discuss it with your therapist. Your posts are some of the most cynical, embittered, and vitriolic I've read in some time.

And you never answered my question: How would you go about selecting employees? Toss of the coin, perchance?

Re:Past Predicates Future

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely right about the reluctance. I wouldn't be reluctant, because there's nothing for me to be in doubt about, signed a non-disclosure contract, which I would inform any future interviewer about, as soon as s/he would want to hear about what I did in the job I'm in now, so I would not need to appear like avoiding the details, but simply could answer "I cannot give an answer to that" instead of risking either breaking my legal binding or creeping out of the questions about details.

If they want details they can call the PR department of the company I'm in, I have the phone number. Not that they'd get much out of those, but at least they'd talk with a professional creeper.

But okay, my company does have a reputation of secrecy, but it is also known for high quality products, their name alone should be enough to convince.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[cubicledrone]

I don't know what experiences you've had in business

I watched people's careers destroyed by rat fuck liars for no reason. That's about as succinct as I can put it.

Your posts are some of the most cynical, embittered, and vitriolic I've read in some time.

And they are right.

ow would you go about selecting employees?

I would ask "can you do this job?" Based on the answer, I would then ask "would you be willing to learn to do this job?" or say "welcome to the project."

Giving personality tests, horseshit puzzles and treating people like dogshit is quite a bit more cynical, embittered and vitriolic than my accurate commentary on the state of the modern workplace. HR departments and middle managers do this to take people's dignity away from them. Simple as that.

Re:Past Predicates Future

[rumblin'rabbit]

May I suggest that one of the causes of your bad experiences is an hostility towards authority. Being an employee is not for everyone - you might be better off as an entrepreneur. You could then try out your hiring policies.

Just throwing it out there.

For non-experts hiring experts

[gr8_phk]

The main problem I've seen with hiring is that the people doing the interviewing often are not qualified to evaluate the technical ability of the people they hire. One place I worked (in embedded software - the SOC kind) the cheif engineer had a list of questions for all the software candidates. They were specific questions - as a single example: he'd ask if they knew what the "volatile" keyword was for in C, and when you might use it. If they didn't know the answers to these types of questions (or at least several of them) they clearly weren't the people we were looking for. Now if you have a non-expert doing the hiring, some other test may at least offer some idea of a persons problem solving ability. It's not perfectly tailored to the job so it shouldn't be the only criteria, but I can see some value in it.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[mysticgoat]

It's just *weird* working with Google. At times, even frustrating. There's absolutely zero visibility into the company and their practices. And from what I know from Google insiders, it doesn't get any better once you're there.

The mushroom management model is still a moneymaker, huh?

I keep Rubik's Cubes on my desk

[Anonymous Coward]

a 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 (aka Revenge), and 5x5 (aka Professor's Cube). The 3x3 is scrambled. If they're suppressing a desire to reach for it and fiddle, or they just instinctively grab it and start solving it, it shows a tendency to want to solve problems. Doesn't matter if they can or not (but if they can, it can turn into an interesting discussion of how to abstract the 4x4 and 5x5 solutions into the 3x3 solutions, while pointing out some snafus unique to each...), since many people hate the cubes with a passion. But if they do, then there's clearly an urge to solve problems -- and that's often present in the better coders.

i think it's a stupid trend for IT

[junk]

"How many red cars were on the road during your trip to work?"

What? What the hell are you talking about? How does this apply to anything? That's an actual question I've heard used as an example for these stupid puzzle tests. I've done a lot of IT related interviewing where I work and have flat out refused to ask these useless questions, despite the huge trend in this company towards these things. We've had a lot of really bad hires, in my opinion, that probably answered these questions perfectly. I've only had a hand in hiring one complete dud that I can think of and have never resorted to this. It's garbage. Ask me about what claim I know. Hell, you can even make up puzzles about what I claim to know. I'm creative when it comes to solving a real problem, but I have no idea how you want me to figure out how many of what color car was on the road with me today.

2 problems with the puzzles

[slagell]

The first bad assumption is that these tests measure intelligence. Much like polygraphs used by the NSA, they suffer from a high false positive rate. This is especially true of people with anxiety disorders. These tests (as well as things like the GRA and SAT) will often result in poor scores for very intelligent and good students with test anxiety. So much riding on one test, especially one that is timed, severely handicaps these intelligent individuals. The polygraph has the same problem as it is an anxiety and not a lie detector.

We also have to consider that speed isn't everything. Some people more than compensate with diligence and single-minded determination. This is particularly true of many of the great mathematicians. Sure they were intelligent, but the single-minded focus to hammer away on one problem for years means a lot more than speedly solving trite puzzles.

Even if one argues that they don't care about it being unfair or the false negatives (say they just don't want false positives), or someone says they don't want to take a chance on people with anxity problems, there is a more major false assumption. That is the assumption that intelligence makes someone a good worker or employee. It is hardly the only important attribute, and intelligence alone does not imply someone is a good employee or you will get much from them. In fact, you may only get headaches. Intelligence is one of many important attributes in a potential employee. A narrow focus on any single desired attribute is a bad idea.

The way it should be

[IamWhoIam]

Speaking strictly from a hardware outlook, problem solving is much more important to me that any degree or cert. Unfortunately schools today are grinding out idiots that are only good at spouting acronyms. Over the last few years I have fired more so called techs with degrees and a A+ cert., than I care to remember. Because they were blooming idiots that were only good at taking a test but not worth a damn at solving problems. Now when I interview a new tech I present them with a computer that I have disabled. If they can fix it they get the job, if not no job. And in my opinion that is the way any tech position should be filled.

College?

[rantingkitten]

Isn't a college degree just a symbol that says, "Look, a whole bunch of people with good reputations threw a bunch of puzzles at me. Some were hard, some were easy, but overall I did well enough to pass through these puzzles. I retained some of the information and processes but that's not really important. What's important is the fact that I'm able to solve problems and paid to do it for four years."

More like, "Look, a whole bunch of people asked me to memorize random bits of trivia and facts, long enough to pass some tests, after which I was permitted to forget most or all of it, forever. This thoroughly silly process continued for four years, during much of which I was drinking, trying to get laid, playing pranks on the other people around me, or otherwise screwing around. I'm much more qualified than someone who didn't go through this process!"

Re:College?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should have chosen a program in which you didn't just "memorize random bits of trivia and facts". Don't blame college in general because you chose the "wrong" major/program/school. It will probably come as a surprise to you but there ARE programs that guide students to think for themselves and refine and expand their problem/puzzle solving skills. But by judging you by your post, despite thousands of schools to choose from, it simply can't be possible that it is not your fault that the college you went to sucked in terms of your growth.

Re:College?

[Richard Steiner]

Some schools must be better than others. :-) I *still* use practical things that I learned in college from time to time, mainly related to structured code design and the breaking down of various problems using pseudocode, etc.

(I only knew a couple of BASIC and Fortran variants before I got to college, and I'd never designed anything larger than a few thousand lines of code, so some of that stuff was new to me. This was back in 1981, after all, when not everyone had access to programming classes, and self-taught Applesoft BASIC programmers like myself weren't really known for writing structured code ).

Don't take it personally

[Cybert4]

I meant I can explain it to the applicant. Explain what irrational number are.

Re:Don't take it personally

[Tim Browse]

An irrational number is one that cannot be represented as one whole number divided by another.

Do I win?

Re:Don't take it personally

[iapetus]

And you can't explain what a 'touchdown' or a 'birdie' is? (Not that the golfing example is a worthwhile one either - it's an incredibly simple mathematical problem which I'm sure wasn't intended as an example of the sort of puzzle being discussed here).

And while you're explaining, perhaps you could explain why I'm expected not to take personally garbage like "You did poorly in math, didn't you?" being thrown at me because I disagree with your claim that pure maths questions don't exhibit a cultural bias? That one kind of slipped by me as well.

You can explain what an irrational number is, but the knowledge that "if b is odd, then 2*b^2 only contains one 2 in its decomposition" isn't something you can helpfully provide. There are other proofs that don't require that, but the problem is that the abstract nature of the problem makes it difficult to see a logical chain from the problem to the solution, and it makes it difficult for the problem setter to guide the interviewee towards the right answer if they are entirely stuck - which I would argue is an important part of this sort of test - I disagree strongly with the ludicrous concept of solve-this-and-you-have-a-job. That goes against the whole purpose of such riddles, which is to observe how the person attacks the problem. As with many maths exams, the working is far more important than the right answer.

There's also the fact that many people with a pure maths background will have encountered exactly that problem before, which again renders the test worthless. I don't care whether someone can remember that their second year maths teacher taught them how to prove sqrt(2) is irrational any more than I care whether they can remember what arguments java.lang.String#substring takes.

With that in mind I have a strong preference for riddles that use a very neutral (and preferably simple) set of basic concepts, and which allow for a logical step-by-step approach to solving them. One that I came across when interviewing at IBM was as follows:

Given a simple set of balance scales, how many weights would be required to allow you to weigh out all whole numbered weights from 1g to 250g, and what values would those weights have?

Very simple in its basic setup, no specific knowledge required, can be worked out without needing to resort to anything other than basic mathematics, but isn't simply a test of that. Even better, there's an obvious but wrong answer that it's interesting to see how people work their way out of if they get there.

Re:Don't take it personally

[MurphyZero]

And in a group whose members are very familiar with binary, most would quickly say 8 (1,2,4,8,16,32,64 and 128) which of course is the obvious but wrong answer you mentioned. This test of course uses base 3 instead and 6 weights (1,3,9,27,81 and 243) Each weight of course can be used on either side of the scale, which allows three value (-1, 0, and +1) logic.

Obviously, he thought you must not be FQ.

[Anonymous Coward]

To say "domain name" when you mean "FQDN" just means you're not FQ, eh? ;)

Isn't this hacking?

[griffjon]

Doesn't the State of California consider mucking with URLs to be hacking? ;)

I think you overestimated what they wanted.

[brunes69]

I could write a "simple web server" in an hour... as long as it always returned the same hard-coded page no matter what request was fed to it.

Think about it - the request was for a simple web server - they didnt say RFC compliant, they didn't say it had to actually serve files from disk... there should be no need for you to parse pathnames or anything else. Just look for the GET /, and reutrn the page. Refuse all others with a 404, and refuse all other HTTP methods than GET.

Hell the page could be hard-coded in the C++ as well.

Re:I think you overestimated what they wanted.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about... sockets?

Re:I think you overestimated what they wanted.

[digidave]

Does it have to be a network web server? Maybe you just run the executable and it prints an HTML string if the first arg is GET.

Or maybe you use ASCII art in the source code to draw a picture of a waiter serving some HTML code on a platter.

Re:I think you overestimated what they wanted.

[feenberg]

I think you were probably expected to invoke the server via inetd and could read commands from the standard input and send pages to standard out. That "handles" threading for you also.

Daniel Feenberg

Skills vs Papers

[Anonymous Coward]

Having seen MCSEs that are fully "credentialed" by MS that are unable to setup a server, a domain, a workstation; versus people that can actually do the job even though they have not been "trained" by professionals.. ahem... I agree with this, plus it gives you the added bonus of finding raw talent that may not have the experience, but pick things up quickly, another vastly important "skill-set" in IT. Remember, you can't fix stupid. Thus the need for Techs.

I Larts'em as I sees'em.

My 'puzzle' experience

[digitalamish]

I was taken to a conference room, given a hardcopy chunk of code, and told to figure out what it did. On the way out one guy said, "Oh there might be an error in there too". So I did my 'Russell Nash' thing and ran the program step by step in my head and figured the program out. I ran a few more calculations, and I determined there was a problem given a certain numeric precision. The guys came back in about 30 minutes after they left. First they asked to see any scrap paper I used determining the solution. I told them I didn't have any, except for a couple of numbers I wrote on the code pages. They were stunned, but I explained exactly what the program did, which one of them confirmed. Then I explained the error I found. At this point they got very defensive. It seems this piece of code was pulled from their production systems, and "didn't have any errors". I explained what I found to them, and one of them wandered off.

Oddly I didn't get the job. They said I lacked the ability to document. Funny since I graduated with a degree in technical writing. Maybe they just wanted people to come in an debug for them in interviews.

Re:My 'puzzle' experience

[Yogs]

It's important to be able to look at algorithm, consider the inputs, consider the corner cases on the inputs and in intermediate values/data structures, and find what doesn't degrade nicely enough, or is broken outright. However, having this skill does not make you a genius, just competent to puzzle out technical problems once you know the cast of characters in that problem domain/area of code. By the tone of your post I'd guess that you generally look down on most of your peers. By the outcome of the interview I'd guess that it shows. It's really that simple. Sincerely, Ben Yogman Recovering Asshat

Re:My 'puzzle' experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people can do that 'Russel Nash' Thing

Re:My 'puzzle' experience

[Jetson]

They were stunned, but I explained exactly what the program did, which one of them confirmed. Then I explained the error I found. At this point they got very defensive. It seems this piece of code was pulled from their production systems, and "didn't have any errors". I explained what I found to them, and one of them wandered off. Oddly I didn't get the job.

Heh. You were probably talking to the guy that wrote the defective code. I run into that at my work occasionally. Hell hath no fury like an egotistical programmer who thought his code was golden and was shown the iron pyrite buried within.

Re:My 'puzzle' experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't consider them to be egotistical programmers; I consider them to be egotistical idiots.

Re:My 'puzzle' experience

[Anonymous Coward]

At first I thought you meant John Nash, from A Beautiful Mind. But then I remembered: Russell Nash is Connor MacLeod's 20th-century alias in Highlander.

So . . . you chopped their heads off? I wouldn't have hired you either.

I like this method.

[gurps_npc]

1) It is hard to fake being capable of solving the puzzle (unless you cheat by getting the answers before hand).

2) It rewards people that have the brains but not the degree/experience/other checklist sillyness that recruiters/companies ask for.

3) If the test giver is smart, they will accept, or even LOOK for non-traditional answers instead of insisting on 'classic right ones' (THE BAROMETER FABLE - yes you can use the air pressure reading to get the height of the building, but you could also trade it to the building manager for the information, use a sun's shadow measurements, drop it and time the fall, etc. etc. etc.)

And generally I myself LIKE solving puzzles, and am pretty good at it. So I like this method of hiring a lot.

Re:I like this method.

[geekoid]

"1) It is hard to fake being capable of solving the puzzle (unless you cheat by getting the answers before hand)."

I have been asked the exact same questions in different interviews.

I wouldn't call that cheating.

Riddles, education, job history = total picture

[Anonymous Coward]

I did not read through all the posts so I might be redundant but recently I went through two company interviews one for Rutgers University and another for a small software company whos name I forget now. And both gave me tests where I had to write code, solve riddles, and they also reviewed my resume with me (They reviewed my job experience with me and education). I also about year ago did an interview with Google and it was much the same though they asked alot more questions and the interview was generally longer then anything I have experienced before. Overall while this may not speak for the industry in general my impression was that it is the same as 5 years ago. They still want the total picture, including education, job history, and a look at your problem solving skills. I think anyone who is decent in there field should pass with flying colors, dont worry. And if you could improve, then make every effort too.

I do think that the style of learner who is just good at remembering facts might be at a disadvantage here, but problem solvers rejoice.

Over monthly limit. Consider upgrading your plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else notice that http://crazyegg.com/pages/scripts/8857.js points to the following message?

//Over monthly limit. Consider upgrading your plan - CrazyEgg

Prove your worth, indeed.

Die Hard With A Vengence...

[huckamania]

I got the riddle about filling up water bottles that was directly from Die Hard With A Vengence. I didn't say anything about it, I just answered the question, but after I was hired, I totally ragged on the guy who asked it at a department meeting. He was pretty embarassed.

I've also had two interviews with different groups at the same place *cough* symantec *cough* and was asked the same question: "How many gas pumps are there in the U.S.". The first time I went through the process of guesstimating but the second time I knew the answer and just told the guy. He was incredulous that I would know until I told him why I looked it up in the first place.

I've had worse interviews. I had one where the VP of Engineering called me a liar and told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I had just spent 6 months doing the thing he said was impossible, so I could care less. Same place, I turn the corner from the receptionist, the whole work space was half-height cubicles and the entire staff was Indian. I honest to god couldn't stop from laughing. My windowless office never looked so good.

I figure it like this, I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. Chances are, if they don't have a clue about who to hire, they're not gonna have a clue about much else.

A better way of looking at it might be

[EdMcMan]

Do you want to hire someone that can't solve the puzzle? For the linked website, do you want to hire someone who can't a) append a string to the end of their url b) look at the html code for a funny tag c) Write php?

Good References and Nice Work Portfolio

[hackus]

As long as the guy has good references and a nice portfolio of projects he can let me look at in the area of expertise I am looking for, I usually stop looking at other candidates.

-Hackus

Re:Good References and Nice Work Portfolio

[geekoid]

I'd be screwed.
Almost all my work is not allowed to leave the building in any form.
Any portfolio that isn't actual in use work is useless.

Joel on Software

[mark99]

I think Joel Spolsky said it all here:

  http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog00000000 73.html/

Hire people who are #1 Smart, #2 Get things done.

Of course Smart is somewhat a matter of opionion (i.e. what I consider smart, you may find irrelevant), and culture and chemistry are important too, but I think his article is a good guide to finding the right people. At least it works for me :)

Volunteer!

[Cybert4]

Do some open source, or do your own project. Make sure to network a lot at conventions or job fairs (even with other applicants).

This boils down to abstract thought

[Frobozz0]

There are two types of individuals looks for jobs, both have similar resume experience. One has the ability for abstract problem solving and conceptualization, and the other can only repeat what they are shown. Which do you hire?

Look, I don't think every job requires the same set of skills. They also don't require the same problem solving skills or background. I also don't think that a single question even BEGINS to cover the gamut of problems a potential hire will have to face. If you're going to hire competant people, you have to hire people who want to learn. If you're going to hire people who will lead teams you will need the aforementioned skill AND the ability to solve problems with the resources at hand. Here is where the problem becomes more human.

The problem with only hiring abstract thinkers is that you have a bunch of smart people quabbling over the details when you put them together. I don't know how many times the big picture gets lost when a bunch of smart people get in a room. At times you need decision makers, at others you need problem solvers, at others you need pawns. If you don't balance your team you're not doing yourself any favors.

Re:This boils down to abstract thought

[cubicledrone]

One has the ability for abstract problem solving and conceptualization, and the other can only repeat what they are shown.

False dilemma. All human beings have the ability to solve and conceptualize abstract problems.

If you're going to hire competant people, you have to hire people who want to learn.

All people want to learn. If people don't want to learn, it's management's fault.

Re:This boils down to abstract thought

[Anonymous Coward]

False dilemma. All human beings have the ability to solve and conceptualize abstract problems.

Excessive reductionism.

Some people have better abstract thinking abilities than others. This is clearly what he meant.

Re:This boils down to abstract thought

[cubicledrone]

Some people have better abstract thinking abilities than others. This is clearly what he meant.

Nonsense. The statement was specific.

Interview processes have become convoluted.

[danpsmith]

It seems to me that the corporate world has completely disappeared up its own ass when it comes to hiring processes. In my last phone interview I was asked to solve a puzzle involving 8 1oz marbles, 1 1.5oz marble and a two pan scale and two weighs to find the 1.5 oz marble. I eventually arrived at the correct answer, then in the beginning of the job interview, almost before hi how are you, they have me play 3 or 4 rounds of mastermind. Then begin with grilling questions. All of this for some $30,000 help desk jockey job that includes a 2-9 week training period with a test with 80% or more required or they let you go anyway.

By the time we got down to the interview I was so thrown off by the BS that I became completely uncomfortable. Next time I get a logic question on a phone interview I'm hanging up the phone. I'd rather shovel shit for a living than go through these pansy interview processes involving roleplaying, logic puzzles for menial jobs which you are trained for anyway. My opinion is that they've given to many HR people too much time to dream up new ways to mess with peoples' heads.

Mastermind and marble weighing problems have so very little to do with tech support, let's be honest. And I'm not just saying that because I didn't get the job or pass those tests. I ended up failing on the actual interview questions because of being so flustered by these other ridiculous hoops I had to leap through.

It's left me disallusioned with working in the industry entirely and I'm now considering going back to school for something else.

Re:Interview processes have become convoluted.

[Sarmis]

Perhaps the fact that you got flustered so easily is something of a sign that you would not do well in a position which requires you to solve problems under any pressure - like, for example, a technical support position.

Re:Interview processes have become convoluted.

[danpsmith]

That's your opinion, and it could be right in their eyes. But the fact remains that no technical support question is going to be as complicated as the 9 marble problem or playing a shitload of rounds of mastermind. I do tech support at this and a number of other jobs and I have no problems putting up with that. So if their intention is to create a falsely tense environment that is in ways more stressing than the job and then grilling you like George Foreman afterward then they have succeeded admirably. If their intention was to find qualified candidates, then I'd say they need to re-think their strategy.

Re:Interview processes have become convoluted.

[cubicledrone]

Perhaps the fact that you got flustered so easily is something of a sign that you would not do well in a position which requires you to solve problems under any pressure - like, for example, a technical support position.

Corporate people are all perfect. They are absolutely perfect.

Re:Interview processes have become convoluted.

[fuzzybunny]

Not necessarily--at some point you're just not willing to play games. If the person interviewing you isn't willing and able to sit down with you and get a clear idea of how good you are and what you've done, then it's probably a waste of your time.

Pre-screening should be able to take care of the herd; we used to ask prospective firewall admins bullshit stuff like "do you really need ethernet in a switched environment?" You'd be surprised how many just go bug-eyed. For programming jobs, I can see things like the little proveyourworth riddle, even though there's non-PHP ways of submitting the form; it'll either show that you know PHP or that you're at least creative enough to figure out an other way to do it. But bogus theoretical riddles and crap like that? Give me a break.

On the other hand, you may have a point; maybe the company wants someone who doesn't see it as a waste of time to solve mind games, in which case most people I know wouldn't be happy there anyway. :-)

Better test for the new Century

[Anonymous Coward]

Bend over, let's see what you can take...

This is nothing but good

[CAIMLAS]

This is nothing but a good trend, if you ask me. It means businesses will find people actually able to do the jobs at hand, and not worry so much about dead weight. It means talented people will be able to jump in and get jobs doing what they're able to do without short-circuiting their careers with a functionally useless bachelor degree.

Furthermore, it means that young people will not need to continue to burden themselves with the expense of a college diploma (with the years and thousands of dollars in loads attached) unless they need to due to shortcoming, or for a particular professional field which requires such things. When you've got people paying off college loans until their kids graduate high school, this can hardly be seen as anything negative.

Maybe then colleges and universities will adapt and learn how to compete again instead of having half a major's requirements be fluff and non-consequential social engineering humanities and concentrate on teaching instead of indoctrination.

(Yeah, I know university isn't about job training, but it's already treated that way, just with social indoctrination courses. If you want to retain the concentration on art and literature, fine - just cut out the worthless social commentary and political 'artists'.)

Re:This is nothing but good

[cubicledrone]

a functionally useless bachelor degree

Education is meaningless in this society.

ot need to continue to burden themselves with the expense of a college diploma

Where the degree goes, the rest of education follows. Total societal illiteracy doesn't take much.

If you want to retain the concentration on art and literature, fine - just cut out the worthless social commentary and political 'artists'

Money is all that matters. We don't need all that art and literature "fluff."

Art and literature are meaningless to business, which explains why people making six figures can't construct a complete sentence. But hey, they can sure misspell words in Powerpoint! Pass the croutons.

Re:This is nothing but good

[CAIMLAS]

I said a bachelor's degree is functionally useless, and most woh have one are as well.

I didn't say an education is useless. But really, that has little to nothing to do with the fact that someone has a degree...

Re:This is nothing but good

[cubicledrone]

I said a bachelor's degree is functionally useless

And that, unfortunately, is the problem with the current workplace. Nothing is ever good enough.

Our society claims to value education, despite the fact that in the workplace, "bachelor's degrees are functionally useless." So which is it? Shall we tell students to abandon their goals of higher education and with it their ability to earn a professional living? Might as well, since hiring managers already are.

What I encountered.

[Kaenneth]

I was interviewing at a place, and they asked the oldest, most stale riddles.

In particular, they asked: "Where is the one place you can walk one mile south, one mile east, and one mile north, and end up exactly where you started."

My response (after some thought and diagramming): "The classic answer is 'the north pole', however there is an infinite series of concentric rings around the south pole starting at 1 plus 1 divided by pi divided by 2, where you could walk one mile south, walk a whole number of times in a circle around the south pole, then walk north and reach the same spot."

The interviewer appeared to not believe in any answer outside the standard one, but I stuck to that answer. I honestly believe that they wern't testing to see how well I could stick to an answer, but were instead just plain stupid. (plus, I was correct in my belief that their product was doomed to failure in the marketplace anyway)

Re:What I encountered.

[cubicledrone]

In particular, they asked: "Where is the one place you can walk one mile south, one mile east, and one mile north, and end up exactly where you started."

Correct answer: "Thanks for the coffee."

Yahoo!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at Yahoo! and one of the things that impress me most, is the kind of information I have access to, even if I work from an obscure foreign country.

I don't get access to much financial information, but everything else is very open with Wikis and mailing lists everywhere.

No

[Cybert4]

I was saying that I could explain to an applicant what an irrational number is (and maybe help with the odd*odd=odd thing).

Re:No

[Tim Browse]

This riddle thing is rubbish. I didn't even win a prize.

Hired via Solve the Riddle

[dieth]

I was asked to login thru a VNC system & solve various technical problems within different network environments. In the end, I was offered the position. During the interview one, the CEO stated, "You passed the test, you have nothing to worry about." The interview still had all the questions about previous experience, and education.

DIY is good practice

[backwardMechanic]

Um, maybe it doesn't count as real world, but in academic science it's normal to write it all yourself. It usually takes longer to learn to use the library than to write the specific little bit of it that you actually need. Most of the code I write is used for less than a month, often only for a day. Some of it doesn't look pretty, but it answers a question and I move on.

meh

[allaryin]

Ok, so poke source, look at it for a few seconds to figure out how to get to their form, no biggy there.

Then they request a resume, no biggy there.

Then they request some php code in some really convoluted language and don't really tell you what they want, but they're from Quebec so we'll assume they just don't speak English.

Then you realize that they are willing to accept resumes in MS Word format, they lose. Bad Canadian. No resume.

Re:meh

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you fucking retarded? They want you to automate the form submission using PHP code and submit the PHP code you did this with. They were trying to get across the point that you could use Snoopy, CURL, or plain ol' fsock. The reason you don't understand it is because you're apparently not a PHP programmer or very bright in general. Apparently, their little trick worked because it kept a dumbass like you from applying and wasting their time.

Re:meh

[Intangion]

i used curl
i made the php submitting code like im supposed to, submitted resume and source and the other info, but it complains about a bad hash..
i used the hash from their form and it didnt work, i tried hashing all kinds of thigns, tried hashing my resume,, tried hashing my source

tried hashing their hash..

no matter what it says bad hash..
have you gotten it to work?

Re:meh

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure did, took about 5 minutes from start to finish.

Hey! We interviewed at the same place!

[Just Some Guy]

I interviewed for a telecommuting position in a city about two hours away. The Big Project was to re-implement Pointcast or some other stupid push technology, but this time users would actually like it. Yeah.

So during the interview, they revealed that they were expecting to support about 1,000,000 clients with updates every minute. "Oh?", says I, "how much data are you pushing to each user every minute?" They answered with, "we're very efficient! Only about 1KB." "And how much bandwidth do you have?", I pressed. "We just added a third T1," they replied with obvious pride.

Apparently my riddle was to figure out how to push 137Mbps through a 4.5Mbps pipe.

And they were betting their company's future on my ability to answer it.

The "exam" ended when they discovered that I wasn't planning to move to their city to take the 100% telecommuting position, even though I'd made that perfectly clear on my resume, cover letter, and application. They apparently also sucked at measuring distances.

HP - Job Test

[thorkyl]

Q - Do you belive in privacy
A - Yes

Q - Do you think a company has the right o read your email
A - Only if sent to or through your network

Q - Do you think we have the right to view your credit report
A - No

Q - Where do your children go to school
A - Non of your business Mrs. DUNN

Re:HP - Job Test

[wintermute42]

IANAL, but as I understand it, in California the anti-wiretapping law states that they can only read the email if it is on their server. It is simply crosses their network it may run afowl of the California ant-wiretapping law. If Patricia Dunn had thought of these things she would not be known on Slashdot.

here's what I did

[Anonymous Coward]

I was asked the "How many quarters are in Yankee Stadium?" question in 2001. I looked at it for a few minutes and thanked the kids at the interview for their time and said I wasn't interested. They blustered and flustered. I told them I wasn't interested in working for a company that had such a poor hiring process. I also told that to the woman at HR when I left. The next day she left a message apologizing and asking me to come back in. Same message the next day. I called her on day 3 and told her I wasn't interested in working for them. She told me she was thinking of leaving over my interview. I looked for the company in 2003 and they dissappeared. Dotcom kids. Anyone who thinks that's a way to interview an employee can't run a business.

Bah. You can submit that form with javascript

[TrebleJunkie]

Prove Your Worth's form can be submitted from the browser correctly just by first keying in this bit of javascript into the URL textbox:

javascript: void window.confirm( document.forms[0].action = "/?p=auto_submit" );

Then fill it out and hit submit. *chuckle*

Wow. That took a PHP genius.

Why Didn't I Get The Job

[aplusjimages]

I went to a job interview dressed as The Riddler, but was turned away. Riddle me this, why didn't I get the job?

hash

[Intangion]

has anyone else solved it yet?
what the hell am i supposed to be hashing
keeps telling me bad hash

Re:hash

[Intangion]

i finally solved it!
i was forgetting something else besides the hash..

Re:hash

[ifixcpu]

I am getting the same "Bad Hash :(" message...What were you missing?

thanks in advance...

Re:hash

[Intangion]

well since its been 2 days and i havent heard from them, and i guess i probably wont.. i was missing the cookie

Check with me in a few years.

[Cybert4]

I'll convert you into a jupiter brain. Cool prize!

as an interviewer...

[Sebastopol]

I still have trouble asking puzzle questions, and I've interviewed hundreds of new college grads.

First, I can't tell if they know the answer already via web preparation.

Second, I've met a handful of seriously sharp students who have successfully turned the tables on me when I try to baffle them with puzzles and algorithms. That's always embarrassing.

Third, I haven't seen too many examples of "good thought process" which people who favor this line of questioning seem to trumpet as the most import part. Almost all of the candidates stumble through these things the same way with a few exceptions on both ends of the spectrum. For me it doesn't lead to any great insight into difference in the candidates: other than sorting out the complete mouth-breathers, and the super-geniuses, which are like the 3% on either side of the 3.75~4.0 GPA curve.

Personally, I'd at least like to learn if I'm administering the "puzzle interview" properly before judging it. None of our interview training classes cover technical interview technique, just behavioral.

Battle-Hardened Veteran

[theunixman]

The Battle-Hardened Veteran would explain to the potential employer/customer why the problem was impossible, and while perhaps not providing a formal proof, would present enough evidence that he would be seen as a Veteran. And he would still make an attempt to do it anyway, just to be sure. Watching how a person discovers why something is not possible is far more revealing than listening yet again to someone state quickly that it cannot be done.

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[Anonymous Coward]

Impossible?

Any competent C++ coder could write a web server in under two hours, no doubt about it.

I don't even see it as a challenge at all.

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[gfody]

2 hours?
it took me 20 seconds to google for and find a complete web server in under 200 lines of code
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/eserver/libr ary/es-nweb.html

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[Anonymous Coward]

Any compotent PERL programmer could do it in 20 minutes. However, it wouldn't be quite as efficient. :)

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[Anonymous Coward]

I took his statement of "No External Libraries of Any Kind" to mean that he does not have sockets or a TCP/IP stack.

Meaning:
He would be working directly with the MAC to create a TCP/IP stack to build his web server on. That is definitely NOT a 4 hour project.

And it is a lot more than 200 lines of code.

When someone says "No external libraries" it usually means that it is an embedded project. You would not even have cout/printf.

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[alienw]

Uh, no. The standard library and the OS API are not external libraries -- that would generally be considered part of the development environment. You cannot even talk to the network chip from Windows or Linux without using the appropriate API. They were probably referring to not using some kind of "sockets for dummies"/"webserver in a box"-type library. In any case, this is the kind of question that you should ask to clarify to avoid looking really stupid.

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[Anonymous Coward]

Lines of code is one thing, testing and debugging it is another!

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[carpeweb]

Maybe.

Or, maybe a BHV would discuss the implications of trying to solve the problem in a particular way, which might elicit lots of hidden assumptions. The BHV would enumerate as many assumptions and constraints as possible and show that he's good at defining problems before solving them.

In other words, I'd be more impressed with a response along the lines of "well, I could create a solution along the following lines in the time alotted, but that's not the best approach because such a solution would lack x, y, z, etc.", followed by the BHV actually demonstrating the best available solution in the time alotted.

This is only slightly different from parent's vision of the "right approach", but in a way that I somehow find important; maybe I'm on to something, or maybe I'm just different (like Forest Gump was different).

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[Monkelectric]

Yea, but how long did it take to *DESIGN* the architecture for that 200 lines of code? To pour over the RFCs? To ponder? I have a hunch you're one of those programmers who thinks they can accomplish any task over the weekend with enough red bull? The hell with design? The hell with anything but pounding out code?

A webserver in 200 lines of code is a masterpiece of brevity. Size has *NOTHING* to do with the difficulty of a task. Is a cell phone easier to make than a brick because the phone is smaller?

Do you know that John Steibeck used to write his novels, then go through them and remove every word he thought he could? This is the origin of the term, "Steinbeckian." To quote Pascal, IIRC "I apologize for the length of this letter, but I did not have time to make it shorter."

Re:Battle-Hardened Veteran

[gfody]

The architecture for this is summed up in an image with 3 circles - I wouldn't call it a masterpiece.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128

[Cybert4]

Probably the obvious but wrong answer. Oh well. I don't get the job.

Re:1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128

[iapetus]

Right on the first count, quite possibly wrong on the second - I leapt to exactly the same conclusion but showed the ability to work through the problem when I was told that this was the wrong answer and questioned the assumptions I'd made about how the problem could be solved. I got the job.

Must.keep,meme.there

[Cybert4]

Discouraging competition is a pretty lame way to conduct a job hunt.

Results of Test

[theunixman]

They may not be watching the process directly, but seeing the resulting code will still reveal a lot about the candidate. Is the code clear and readable even when the candidate is coding under pressure? Does the candidiate point out rought spots? Does the candidate comment on why a particular solution was chosen over another? Did the candidate put any thought into the problem at all, or did he just fold and give up without any effort to discover what the nature of possible solutions would be? There are many ways to pass a test by failing an exercise gracefully, and many ways to fail a test by not taking it at all.

Re:Results of Test

[alienw]

Not to mention, you can learn a lot by seeing what kind of questions the candidate asks (and fails to ask). A mediocre programmer that is not reluctant to ask a few questions is far better than a more competent programmer who takes things literally and does not make the effort to identify requirements and look at the problem from a broader perspective. Companies generally look for team players: if you have trouble with something, you go ask someone to help instead of wasting time. They also look for good communication skills: if you don't understand the requirements, you need to take the effort to ask the right questions. Even the best programmer is not worth hiring if he cannot communicate and ends up building the wrong thing.

There is no test

[allelopath]

The ability to solve puzzles != The ability to write well-structured, well-documented code.

As someone who interviews programmers...

[rdewalt]

I occasionally interview for junior php programmer positions. My technique isn't as much to test rote memorization (since even the best of us have to hit php.net for reference now and then) but a sort of 'Bene Gesserit' way to test someone by observation.

So, I throw questions that are -way- above the level of programmer that I'm looking for.

I don't care if they solve it. It is a -big- bonus if they do. What I -want- is to watch them solve it. Do they answer "I don't know."? (Which is actually a valid answer to me.) Do they come to a solution that is at least along the proper direction towards the solution? Or do they make a wild guess?

The test is not 'can you solve this' but 'How do you work under a very tight time limit, in a very stressful situation, being told these "Senior++" level questions are "Junior" level questions?'. I can train the technical skills needed, if you already have the foundation dicipline and the mind to take the hit. But I can tell from the three "killer" questions I ask, if you have the mental durability and flexability to be able to be a good programmer here.

Re:As someone who interviews programmers...

[myz24]

So, what kind of 'can you solve this' question do you ask?

Re:As someone who interviews programmers...

[cubicledrone]

So, I throw questions that are -way- above the level of programmer that I'm looking for.

Which demoralizes, confuses and belittles the candidates thus achieving what interviewers want to achieve: depriving people of the opportunity to learn the job and contribute, thereby causing them pain and suffering.

It's not about "can they do the job?" It's about exercising power against the weak. Nice and adversarial. Just the way employers like it.

Re:As someone who interviews programmers...

[ErikZ]

Geez. If you're demoralized, confused and belittled by encountering something you don't understand, how do you get through life without killing yourself?

I'd be shocked if you could find someone who didn't encounter concepts that are beyond their knowlege every day.

How about an idea from Star Trek?

[speckledpig]

"How many lights do you see?"

Re:How about an idea from Star Trek?

[Anonymous Coward]

Silly, everyone knows there are four lights...

Re:How about an idea from Star Trek?

[geekoid]

How many lights would you like me to see, boss?

Re:How about an idea from Star Trek?

[wombert]

Aw, I thought you meant the Kobayashi Maru...

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[IamTheRealMike]

Unfortunately, the comparison with Google is poor. Google requires that you have a Masters Degree (PhDs are preferrable) before they even give you their test.

What?

I don't know what "test" you are talking about, but no qualifications whatsoever are required to do certain types of engineering at Google. Specifically look at what they call "Google.com Engineering" or "Site Reliability Engineering". This is not some trivial job; they require very broad and deep knowledge across operating system design, programming, networking, systems administration, and so on and the interview process is notoriously thorough. The job is basically running the server grid. A degree certainly isn't frowned upon but they didn't require one from me, that's for sure!

Certain jobs at Google do require degrees for sure, and some of the research jobs basically require a PhD. But that's not true of the whole company.

You'll never even know why they didn't get back to you, despite a promise to start an interview process after the test.

Again, huh? I have a friend who is also Masters-less yet they got back to him with feedback pretty much straight away.

These guys haven't read DeMarco...

[Alpha830RulZ]

I guess a lot of people haven't, anymore. He had a great bit in one of his books, Managing Software Projects, that noted that developers can be loosely divided into two groups: Those that like to debug, and those that don't. He noted that those that like to debug (ie., like to solve puzzles) on average tend to produce code with bugs in it, more than those that don't like to debug. The folks who like puzzles aren't incented to keep the bugs out of the initial draft, as the debugging is sometimes the most enjoyable part of the project (I happen to be one of those). The other flavor, are more likely to produce more meticulous code, that will compile first time through.

As such, he recommended figuring who was which on your team, and assigning those that didn't like to debug the tasks that required construction of new code, while assigning those who enjoyed finding obscure errors to the tasks of enhancements/ extensions, and yes, debugging.

The implication here is that the use of these tests may be selecting for one group of developers, those who enjoy debugging, and therefore may cause teams to be built that will produce lower quality code.

I use riddles from time to time as part of the hiring process, but not exclusively. Critical Behavior Interviewing has been shown to my satisfaction to be a much stronger technique. This is an interviewing methodology where the company does some work to figure out what essential traits for success are in the job being sought, and then constructs interview questions that seek to determine whether or not the interviewee has exhibited the behavior in the past. For example, rather than asking a candidate about how he/she debugs a problem, ask them to describe for you a recent debugging session, in detail, with examples. Rather than ask them an open ended question about how they deal with conflict, ask them to describe a conflict in which they were involved, what they did in the situation, and how it came out.

I've been doing these for about ten years, and it's a pretty powerful technique. Riddles will tell you how smart someone is in one dimension - they don't tell you anything about their work ethic, their ability to operate independently, or their ability to get along with others - factors at least as important as raw brainpower in my book.

I hope so

[lewp]

Because this one was easy.

Re:I hope so

[milimetric]

that's like a pretty cool riddle, and i can see what they're trying to get me to do. Maybe it's because I don't know PHP but I don't know what form to pass the query string to. Well, maybe I have to POST it instead of do a get...
In any case, it's not _easy_

Game Show Economy

[cubicledrone]

Skill, education and experience do not matter because employers are liars and cheats. By destroying the social contract of "get an education, work hard and you will succeed" they are destroying society. Employment, business, etc. has turned into a game show. It is totally random. The percentage of financing sources, partners, vendors and clients that insist on a choice between something patently unreasonable to even the most cynical screaming asshole or a slammed door is well over 90%. Most "business people" don't even bother with any traditional business model any more. You could bring them a sure thing with two tons of printed proof and they'd still say something really REALLYFUCKING STUPID AND MEANINGLESS like "where's the value added?"

Motherfucking cheats and liars as far as the eye can see. Simple as that.

MOD PARENT +1 FUNNY

[Anonymous Coward]

Surprising that it took this long in this thread.

Suck...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've gotten hit with a riddle in an interview before. It made me not want to take the job. Honestly, I think half the time the riddle is mental masturbation for the sap who came up with it. It's like one geek trying to prove he's the alpha geek.

I think trying to understand someone's problem solving ability through a 5-minute abstraction is ludicrous at best.

Give me a REAL world problem and I'll take on any of these "I can solve a puzzle" jokers.

A test for everyone but the "old"

[stonewolf]

The article links to a site that specifically says they are interested in young people. In other words, no matter what else they say they are not interested in old people. Why is no one upset about the agism displayed by that company? In the US that kind of add is illegal. To bad this kind of discrimination seems to be legal and tolerated in Canada.

These days in IT "old" is the "N" word you can say out loud in public and no body cares. No matter how well you do on the test, don't show up with gray hair.

Stonewolf

Re:A test for everyone but the "old"

[reflector]

the obvious solution to this is, stop being old!

Re:A test for everyone but the "old"

[stonewolf]

The only way to stop being old is to die. So... are you suggesting that all the old folks should just kill them selves? If so, and I do not want to put words in your mouth, at what age should we all kill our selves?

Re:A test for everyone but the "old"

[Anonymous Coward]

21! Duh. Or 30, if you're watching the film.

I want to be asked about design

[mrflash818]

I've worked at places where the code looked like spaghetti.

I want an interview to ask "how would you design this" questions, not a crossword or math problem.

They need to ask something relevant to what good software is all about.

A real system isn't about having the software provide the correct answer.

It needs to provide the correct answer _and_be_maintainable_ !!!!

(Just my humble opinion.)

True story

[RoadWarriorX]

I had been interviewed by someone who asked me a barrage those "thinking" questions. The last one was like this one:

Interviewer: Which way is this bus facing?

I sat there, silently for about 2 minutes. Just as the interviewer was going to say something, I stand up. I looked at the board, and I doodled some mathmatical equations it, then erased it. I acted like I was actually doing some thinking, like cupping my hands together with my index fingers touching my bottom lip. Stuff like that. This went on for about another 10 minutes or so. Then, the interviewer interrupts me...

Interviewer: Um, I need to go to lunch, do you have an answer or do you give up?
Me: Oh, I had an answer 10 minutes ago. I just wanted to test you to see how long you are willing to wait for an answer. Anyway, the answer is 42.

The interviewer snickered and ended the interview session. I was made an offer that day, but I turned it down. I ended up not liking the company.

We need *REAL WORLD* tests - not crosswords

[Mike Blakemore]

Sure, building up your resume is an important thing - but just because you have some MS certs doesn't mean that I'm gonna trust you to know what the hell you're talking about. I see too many people nowadays digging themselves into a pit of student loans just to get a degree in whatever last minute major they're able to grab. Then, hoping that a crappy bio degree will land them a high paying job, -- I'll stop here.

Employers need to take a look at what you are actually capable of doing (especially in the IT field) and ignore all of the hyped-up watermark embedded paper. If you can't do the job, then why hire you? If you can, show me.


--
Do what you love people, otherwise it's just not worth it.

Re:Hey! We interviewed at the same place!

[espressojim]

I don't know why I wanted to double check this. I must be bored/obsessed with numbers?

1,000,000 K / minute = 1,000,000 / 60 seconds = 16666KByte/second
4.5 Mbps * 1024(Kb/M) = 4608 KByte/second

With that 4 fold factor, I'd have said "Um...compression, if it's text?"

Unless I did my math wrong....:)

Stole design from sftpdrive.com

[Anonymous Coward]

the site looks strikingly similar to www.sftpdrive.com

haha

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[drew]

P.S. The Prove Your Worth site really does track your movements via (some rather ugly looking) Javascript. So move carefully.

So, presumably, if you really wanted to prove your worth, you could hack their javascript with greasemonkey or the like and ace the test, right?

Re:Hey! We interviewed at the same place!

[Anonymous Coward]

T1: 1.544 MegaBITs per second

You did your calculations for T1 == 1.544 MegaBYTEs per second

Data storage uses bytes; networking / data transmission use bits.

Always check your terms before calling someone else's work into question, especially if he seems reasonably intelligent. He probably is. You probably made a mistake or are missing an assumption.

Bad Riddle=Probably don't want to work there anywy

[Anonymous Coward]

I applied for a web-related DB position, and got this interview:
- was interviewed for a different position in an entirely different group with no interview for the position I applied for, despite being told I would be interviewed for the initial position as well
- was told that this separate group remakes the exact same solution for every client (that is, clients hand them a non-complex dataset and rather than do any necessary re-organizing of the data they rewrite their code from scratch in an -extremely- uncommon language (no, I'm not exaggerating))
- the group loads all client data into MS Access and works with it exclusively using SQL calls
- the 'technical' part of the interview was one question about SQL and two questions about Excel
- when I recognized the possibility of personal data security/privacy issues in response to a question, the interviewer did -not- and immediately changed the subject
- two interviewers admitted that nearly all employees were very often expected and/or required to work late/weekends/from home for a total of more than 40 hours per week (not crunch time followed by a more relaxing work flow, just...very often working more than 40 hours), but 5 other employees made no mention

My point is that while the "problem-solving" part of the interview was questionable, it was only one of many symptoms that the company was not heading in the right direction. If the company is worth working for, the questions should be fair for the position...if the questions are bad, chances are working there would have been hell, anyways.

Re:Hey! We interviewed at the same place!

[Just Some Guy]

That's actually:

(1000000 KB/minute) * (1024 bytes/KB) * (8 bits/byte) / (60 seconds/minute) / (1536000 bits/second/T1) = 88.9 T1.

Don't forget to include the units!

Riddle-solving is sufficient...

[harmonica]

...if all the interviewee will have to do in the job is solving riddles. If not, all those other qualities that might come in handy should be checked for as well.

In your case...

[IANAAC]

Riddle solving evens the playing field for those that are skilled but may not have the resume to reflect their skill level.

In your case, it sounds as though you were qualified, but perhaps your resume didn't properly reflect your qualifications.

Qualifications don't just mean education. Experience is worth a lot.

Mod parent up

[Meph_the_Balrog]

Watching how a person discovers why something is not possible is far more revealing than listening yet again to someone state quickly that it cannot be done.

This is very true. If you believe there is a flaw in what they are asking you to do, don't just whine that it can't be done. Provide examples of where the problems lay, and provide ideas as to possible solutions. This then shows that, even though you couldn't achieve the goal they set, that you explored the idea thoroughly. They also know you won't just bitch and moan about problems, but will offer them solutions.

Answer-question.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should ask yourself why companies have to "cover their ass" in the first place before knocking the act itself?*

*Here's your first lesson:Cause-->Effect.

Trying to get jobs/problems solve for free...

[blahplusplus]

IMHO this whole quizzing can be used negatively, getting potential candidates to do free work for them in hopes of landing a job when the companies have no such intent.

Learning

[nuggz]

I wasn't planning on giving away the biggest secret.

Unfortunately most people don't want to believe that the right answer and the answer people want are different.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[wranlon]

It kind of tracks your movements. I have a monitor that does track device movements in addition to interactions, much more so than this kind (I do give them that they have better reports).

Tests are valuable

[jorghis]

I graduated from a top ten CS program about a year ago. Believe me there were plenty of people in my class with strong GPAs who lacked the engineering ability to code bubblesort and the practical knowledge to tell you what a firewall is. Tests are extremely valuable at weeding out the CS majors who are just good at getting good grades and those who can actually code. Companies like google and microsoft have a reputation for asking lots of riddles. I went through the whole process for both though and every question I got tested real engineering skills. (usually in the form of write code to do XYZ)

Re:Tests are valuable

[Anonymous Coward]

Those tests you refer to are more suited to people right out of school rather than someone that has been doing this for years on end. First, there is the issue of doing it in an interview, second the questions themselves are not practical in almost all cases, third, it measures nothing about drive, motivation, etc., that are critical to being great in your profession. Cheers

13_15_15

[22_9_3_11_25]

**giggle**

Re:13_15_15

[zobier]

Hey Vicky.

How would you move Mount Fuji?

[asylumx]

The book titled "How would you move Mount Fuji" by William Poundstone does an excellent examination of the puzzle interview from both the interviewers' and the interviewees' perspectives. The point is, though, not whether you get the solution to the puzzle, but how you structure your thoughts in attempting to solve it.

I work for a small shop and we use such hiring techniques... it has proven to be quite a good method of weeding out the "professional interviewers"... the people who know buzzwords but aren't really capable of backing them up.

Degrees & certifications are often used to weed through the stacks of resumes in the first place, but aren't very important after that. The important thing is the potential that you can find in the candidate. A degree doesn't tell you where they're going, it tells you where they've been.

I do recommend the book, though, it is an excellent read and certainly not dry. It also has a number of puzzle questions, some of which I've seen in interviews myself, and the solutions to them for those of you who just don't get it ;-)

Actually its even easier than that

[bratwiz]

If you assume its hooked up to a UNIX system and fired off by INETD, which are certainly reasonable assumptions, especially in the face of "just do whatever you think is best" when looking for clarification-- then you could write the whole thing in C in just a few minutes. INETD will of course take care of hooking up the socket to your program's STDIO so all you have to do is parse the request, open whatever file, write a few headers and then spool it out. You could probably have it up and running before they got their hand off the doorknob...

how about

[Antilles]

"What projects have you done in the past, how did they meet what was required, and in the end --- did they get the desired results?"

fuck the rest of this shit. Its all about results and meeting the needs of the market { project, client, business model }. It either payed the bills, or it didnt. And if HR is involved in interviewing the prospectives AT ANY POINT, said company is already killing itself.

Focus on developing employees, not selecting them

[Frankenbuffer]

According to a recent survey by Deloitte (no ref handy), the typical U.S. company spends almost fifty times as much on selecting employees as they invest annually on developing them once they join the organization.

The problem is, if you want to attract and retain the best employees, focusing on selection and compensation is the wrong approach. It doesn't address the issue of employee engagement, which is key to things like attracting and retaining talent. Companies need to instead focus on developing their employees. An employee who's engaged in their work because their employer strives to make the work interesting, challenging, and relevant to the success of the overall business is much more likely to do a better job and stay with the company over the long term. They also tend to speak well of the place and this helps to attract other good candidates. Everyone wins.

Unfortunately, most HR departments don't understand that the real driver of employee engagement--and all the benefits it brings, like employee and customer attraction and retention, and higher bottom-line profitability--is organizational culture. For instance, recent employee satisfaction surveys from across many industries that I've seen show that compensation is rarely among the top five motivators for why someone stays in a job. Yet compensation is still one of the big levers companies try to pull when attracting and retaining staff.

All this is to say that yes, if some interviewer pulled a "test" stunt on me like your programming assignment, I'd tell 'em to fuck off too. Their approach reflects an organizational culture that I strongly suspect would not enable me to grow and develop in a meaningful way over time in the company. That's how they try to impress me in an interview? Interviews work both ways. Given the growing skills shortage in North America, I think there are many other fine opportunties to consider instead.

Vague and inadequate info...

[Anonymous Coward]

I kinda see it another way; the vagueness and cultural (and linquistic) slippery-ness of crosswords would test for the one thing that is in short supply among bad IT personnel... An ability to mine what someone else means out of the garbage they throw at you.

We spend our entire lives trying to get people to tell us what they want, and in too many cases we misinterpret what we hear from them to be what they want. It's sometimes the fault of the user (not knowing what they want), but it's sometimes the fault of the IT professional (not hearing the underlying request). But a bad programmer/analyst will always see it as being stupid users, and a good one will understand how to get at the root needs better... even with vague requests with meanings that are highly influenced by linguistic and cultural nuances of the user.

Spamvertising

[jspraul]

The answer could depend on whether or not you can get Slashdot to post a link to your test!

Dissenting Voice

[localman]

Well I can't prove it, but I know that I'm lousy at most puzzles. But I'm quite good at real-world problem solving. I've been working at my current employer for six years, as the first programmer and now as head of the development team. We've been rated in the top 5 fastest and most reliable retail sites for a long time now, as we doubled business year over year, so I think we (that includes me) are pretty good at solving real world problems. Some of the team likes puzzles, and some do not.

I think the puzzle solving thing appeals to a certain type of mind, sure. And perhaps a higher than average number of those people make decent programmers. But I've known puzzle solvers who couldn't focus on a practical solution to save their life. I've also known puzzle avoiders like myself, who are excellent at such things -- and quite humble, I assure you ;) I worked at Microsoft for a while, and they're all about the puzzle-type interview questions. I did not feel that this got them the best people.

Anyways, I think it may be occasionally useful, but a catch-all litmus test like this is bound to fall short. Humans are complicated things. The skills required to make a good developer are varied and hard to pin down. And a good team will want variety as well. No simple test is going to substitute for understanding the problem space, understanding the existing team dynamic, getting a good sense of the applicant, and using good judgment.

Cheers.

Re:Dissenting Voice

[e40]

There's another effect that these types of tests select for: the ability to work under pressure, but it's fake pressure. It's the pressure of the job interview, not the pressure of a real job. People can be really good at handling real job pressure and lousy at handling job interview pressure.

Oh, and I agree with your comments 100%.

re: no hiring felons policy?

[King_TJ]

I've actually worked for places where they seriously considered applicants who were subsequently found to have felony convictions, when a background check came back. In each of these situatiions I can remember, the owner really had to think it over - and was "torn" on whether to take a chance on the person or not. In each case, a corporate lawyer tipped the scales against it happening with advice of "Absolutely not! Too great a legal risk for you!"

I'm sure people trying to find work despite a criminal record often suspect that employers are just discarding their resumes immediately. But I don't think that's really true. It's just that in today's lawsuit-happy climate, no attorney is going to recommend it -- and employers tend not to go against their attorney's advice.

Your sig

[itwerx]

"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

This is actually "Finagle's Law of Dynamic Negatives", aka "Finagle's Corollary to Murphy's Law", aka "Sod's Law".

(If you're wondering what Murphy's law really is, see the entry in wikipedia.)

Re:Your sig

[Prof.Phreak]

Hmm... but doesn't the sig capture the spirit of Murphy? (or maybe it's not even -that- Murphy :-)

Re:Your sig

[rammer]

The one thing that makes Murphy's law correct is the fact that it is most often misquoted.
And if quoted properly it is quoted out of context.
And if quoted properly in the proper context it is not understood correctly.
Or at least causes volumes of misundertandings, corrections, flame wars, long discussions of what Murphy actually said, meant and in what context.
Much like this threadlet. My comment included.

Re:Your sig

[after fallout]

I always thought Sod's law was: "Murphy is an Optimist!"

The point being that Murphy leaves it to chance whether something goes wrong and Sod is expecting something to go wrong.

please list the employers doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

If the author of this submission things its such a problem, please list the employers that he knows are doing riddle for hiring? I know of very few HR professionals who would agree to use riddles to attract, and in fact, Google has many ways to hire people- their riddles just be a unique challenge to find a very smart individual or individuals. They still go through a screening process.

I think its ridiculous to claim that this practice is even remotely rampant. I've not heard of anyone outside of Google doing it. Naming a few names out of 100's of thousands of potential employers does not mean the practice is rampant.

I agree. Except I don't.

[rantingkitten]

Unfortunately what you're saying is neither here nor there. If math were taught as a method, as a means of allowing students to deduce the unknown from the known, then perhaps we'd be making some progress. But it isn't taught that way, and hasn't been for decades (at least). It is taught as a series of mindless formulas you are told to memorize and then spit back on command.

To this day I have no idea, whatsoever, what a quadratic equation is, beyond a vague, barely-remembered notion of "something to do with parabolas". I have no clue what one would ever use this formula for. I went through the normal gauntlet, though -- three years of required algebra and geometry in high school and another two semesters of algebra in college. During this time I could factor quadratic equations like it was nobody's business, because I'd memorized how to do it. Ask me what the hell I was doing, and I would have stared at you blankly. I still would. And you know I'm not alone here -- most people come out of math courses this way, and forget everything they allegedly learned a few months later. They will never have any use for this knowledge again for the rest of their lives.

But in the end I'm okay with that. There are plenty of means of teaching pure logic without teaching math and anyone who says otherwise hasn't taken the classes. The notion that "if we teach them math, then 'somehow' logic will transfer to them as well even if we don't directly teach logic" is a silly one and one that lacks any evidence -- but countless millions of students with high school and even college degrees, who took all the same math classes, stand as evidence of what I'm saying. If we care so much about instilling logic into our students, we can teach them logic, instead of having them drill in calculating derivatives and hoping like hell that "somehow" they learn logic from this.

Finally, back to my initial point -- math geeks need to realise that most people have no practical use for math beyond basic arithmetic. It is of personal interest to a minor fraction of the population, of professional use to another small portion, and useless to the rest. Just because Joe finds math interesting doesn't mean it is automatically "easy" or "logical" or "basic" to everyone else.

Despite my being an English major you won't catch me insisting that everyone must be well-versed in the works of Chaucer or Gothic literature. However, I would also submit that the ability to express one's ideas and thoughts to another, with eloquence and precision, is of incalculable value to anyone, in any walk of life, irrespective of occupation, social status, or other interests -- and not just professionally, but socially as well. You can be a math genius, but I'm still going to think you're an idiot if you come off as an inarticulate twit who can't properly wield his native language.

I've seen this code in an actual program

[Sun]

IDA Pro (a very well known and capable disassembler rev-eng tool) comes with a demo version that won't rev-eng itself. Obviously, the first thing you do when you get the full version is to load IDA Pro in IDA Pro.

About five lines into the startup code IDA jumps into a subroutine that does exactly the above. The result? IDA's automatic initial analysis fails to disassemble most of the rest of the application.

Of course, IDA being the best tool around, if you know what you are doing you can just unmark the rest of the application as code, move one line down, and remark the application as code and you're done.

Shachar
P.S.
The real reason I was using IDA on IDA was that all of the crazy anti-rev-eng stuff in it was breaking when it ran on Wine with some security enhanced kernel features on. Turned out that it prevented Wine from getting the memory location where programs typically load themselves on Windows, and IDA was not tolerant to that kind of moving.

Sh.

xkcd spam

[neminem]

I just have to note how much I'm reminded, here, of an xkcd: http://xkcd.com/c125.html

Pull a line at random out of a file with 1 pass

[scottsk]

My favorite question along those lines is how to pull a single line out, at random, from a file without knowing in advance how many lines there are. Never had anyone know the answer...

Re:Pull a line at random out of a file with 1 pass

[sshir]

Meaning flat distribution?

Trivial: take the first line to buffer, second line: put it into the buffer with probability=1/2, third: 1/3, fourth: 1/4 etc.

In the end you get that every line has the same chance to be in the buffer.

Re:Pull a line at random out of a file with 1 pass

[scottsk]

Trivial ... if you know how... but if you've never heard it before ...

Re:Pull a line at random out of a file with 1 pass

[sshir]

That's the point for education AND experience.

Engineer who's worth his salt supposed to know (remember) such things.

sqrt(2) is an irrelevant number.

[RingDev]

Let's say you're hiring a senior developer with 10 years experience in application development, and accounting systems to write a new leasing application. The knowledge of this specific mathematical formula is in no way related to what that applicant needs to know, nor is it as some people here believe "common knowledge". Asking this question on an application exam for a position that is not geared for math majors would be the same as asking you to find the implicit rate of return on a lease. Sure, IRR calcs are baby math, something taught in pre-frosh accounting classes, but that hardly means they are common logic.

Point being, the sqrt(2) problem requires logic to solve, but it also requires significant education to be able to solve. It is there for testing your applicants education in a specific field (that may or may not be related to job duties) in addition to the logic abilities.

Go down to your local military recruiting office some day, ask them if you can take the ASVAB for practice. The ASVAB has tons of pure logic questions that are designed to test your logical and general technical abilities. I would hire someone with a 130 GT score on the ASVAB long before I would hire someone who could prove sqrt(2) is irrational.

-Rick

Re:sqrt(2) is an irrelevant number.

[ytm]

Point being, the sqrt(2) problem requires logic to solve, but it also requires significant education to be able to solve

Education is required to know what is the difference between rational and irrational numbers. From this point it is only logic. The proof starts with question: "what would happen if sqrt(2) was rational?" and follows with consequences. It is an excercise in logic.

Re:sqrt(2) is an irrelevant number.

[RingDev]

sqrt is a slightly advanced fundamental mathematical function.

rational (as in it is possible to express the value as a fraction) is an advanced concept. That concept, while it takes logic to prove, also requires education. And I have yet to see anyone here prove that sqrt(2) is not rational using a line by line algebraic proof.

Someone threw out the bogus age of 10 for this material. I'd like to know what school district they grew up in, because I'm pretty damn sure we didn't get into algebraic proofs until 8th grade in my school system. I don't remember even hitting the proof of rational numbers until Algebra 2 in high school. For most students, that would have been Junior year (alg I-frosh, geometry-soph, agl II-junior, pre-calc-seniors), although some of us crammed geometry and algebra II into sophomore year so we could hit Calc or AP Calc senior year.

Any ways, it matters on what you want to test. If you want to test a person's ability to handle logic, then proving that sqrt(2) is irrational is a poor question. There are two possible ways to solve it. 1) Remembering the formula and proofing process from high school, or 2) Logically producing the proof on the spot, not from memory. The first option makes this a poor question because, as I have stated, you are testing the person's memory and education, NOT THEIR LOGIC ABILITY. The second option sucks because it will likely take the person a long period of time to devise a theory and a way to test that theory. But hey, if your interview process is a year long, includes peer review, and you promise not to drown the applicant at the end of their proof, then yes, this could be a great question. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_two)

You want to know a great logic question? I just ran into it the other day while playing with my son on the computer. Someplace buried in http://pbskids.org/ there is a train game. You have 10 rail road sections in incremental sizes from .1 to 1. As each screen loads, there is one or more sections of track missing. Your job is to combine the sections of track to come up with a specific combination that exactly fills all of the gaps in the track. It's a simple little game that requires only basic math, but a great amount of logic skill to identify the best (and sometimes only) possible solution. A cleaned up version of that game with a timer would make an excellent choice for a logic test.

-Rick

Yes

[BenEnglishAtHome]

The policy, as originally stated, left no wiggle room whatsoever. Yes, that would be brain-dead. Zero-tolerance policies always are.

A sensible approach is to weigh the seriousness of the offense against the position and duties. Where I work, for example, you get conditionally hired for the first year. We trust what you said on your application, bring you on board, and do a full background check during that first year. (Why do we trust what you said on the app? Because lying to us on that application is a felony and, experience shows, dadgum rare. And why do we allow ourselves a year to do the background check? Because we do a serious one - verifying any hits on the initial computer searches, interviewing your family and friends if you're in a sensitive position, and auditing your last three years of tax returns, etc. It takes time.) If there are problems, you may or may not get fired. Bouncing checks, for example, will definitely get you shown the door; it's just a behavior so at odds with our mission of fiscal responsibility that there's no room for second chances. Likewise, we have to be pretty harsh about lots of things and tend to reject anyone without a clean record.

But does every employer need to exercise that same level of caution? Do I really care if the guy selling me my car has a past conviction for felony cruelty to animals? Should someone who has a previous conviction for disturbing the peace be automatically barred from a "you want fries with that?" job? I just think there has to be some room for a judgement call. Any policy that is as was originally stated (iow, absolute) is not smart. Brain dead, even.

And the correct formula is:

[Xamedes]

for y >= x:
nr of slices = signum ((y-x) - int (y/x)) + int (y/x) + 1

signum (x > 0) = 1
signum (x = 0) = 0
signum (x > 0) = -1

why?

the faster one has to eat as long as the slower one eats or the ratio would be in favor of the slower one. the slower one should not be allowed to eat a second slice, because the ratio then changes in favor of him.

Re:And the correct formula is:

[Xamedes]

sorry, typo here:

nr of slices = signum ((y/x) - int (y/x)) + int (y/x) + 1

An opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

If any whiff of this gets out to the largely unimaginitive HR corps, then you will see these tests at the burger-flipper level because someone wrote in a journal article that the question "Where do you see yourself in five years?" is passe. So now we'll give everyone a puzzle to solve.

--once when asked the question "Where do you see yourself in five years?" I answered "Probably in a mirror." I had already been there for a half hour and realized I did not want to work there. Oddly enough, I was offered a job, which I declined..

So if you want to make money, start writing puzzles for HR people. Of course you'd better give them the answer key.

Yes I am an anonymous coward. Remember the HR department will never help your career, but they sure can ruin it.

bingo

[Travoltus]

These guys would have me dump those 10 other law abiding, equally qualified competitors for a position. Screw that. I'm a liberal manager and I'm changing the whole data center and call center's policies to reflect a sensible, more efficient and employee-friendly workplace. But a 'no criminal record' policy is what I use to narrow the field down when I have a minumum of 650 resumes coming in daily.

Sorry, but "won't somebody think of the CRIMINALS" doesn't fly here.

Balanced ternary!

[Cybert4]

Dang, I was just thinking that! I hereby turn in my nerd card until I've studied properly!

a webserver in C and C++

[Anonymous Coward]

I took the challange and implemented a webserver with GET and HEAD support in 66 minutes. Get the GPLed source from here: http://www.inf.bme.hu/~pts/wstest.c . Use it at your own risk :-).

Since I don't want to be employed as a C++ programmer in the near future, I used only the C subset of C++. The code compiles cleanly with GCC 3.4.5:
both ``g++ -ansi -pedantic -W -Wall wstest.cpp'' and ``gcc -ansi -pedantic -W -Wall wstest.c''. During the short test phase valgrind didn't show any memory handling problems -- not even problems related to bad use of free().

In the remaining few hours I would have added CGI support, if-modified-since support, and continued downloading support using HTTP/1.1 partial content ranges.

(Whoever asked for ``Content-Transfer-Encoding: gzip'' support, tell him that it will be available in the Premium Edition only, and he should contact my sales department for prices.)

My opinion about problem solving in IT job interviews: I like taking the challenges, but who can give me a problem which tests whether I can design large softwares well?

Microsoft

[Alomex]

I applied for a job at Microsoft in which I was supposed to do some specialized, rather advanced research management. The interview boiled down to "do this puzzle". I'm actually good at them, having ranked in the top 99.97% of the population in IQ tests (the ultimate "silly puzzle" test if there was ever one). The problem is that my job had nothing to do with fast problem solving, but all about long term planning, lots of specialized knowledge and experience. I discussed this with my interviewers and expressed my willingness to be tested in things relevant to my job but they wouldn't budge. So I solved the puzzle in a way that was as efficient as any they had ever seen but totally new. They were not impressed.

Then and there I realized that Microsoft shares were not about to move up for a while. This was about two years ago.

Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd

[elmurado]

Hey I didn't solve the puzzle but I managed to get hold of some audio files of the Governator disparaging midgets. Does that mean I get a job for Angelides? How about HP?

Re:I agree. Except I don't.

[Seriocomical]

"However, I would also submit that the ability to express one's ideas and thoughts to another, with eloquence and precision, is of incalculable value to anyone, in any walk of life, irrespective of occupation, social status, or other interests -- and not just professionally, but socially as well. You can be a math genius, but I'm still going to think you're an idiot if you come off as an inarticulate twit who can't properly wield his native language." I agree with the above, but with the caveat that the medium can make a big difference. For instance, I can express myself in writing every bit as well as you could, however were you to engage me in a verbal conversation, especially in a social setting and especially if I didn't know you very well and even more especially if you happened to be a nubile person of the opposite gender (ok, ok I confess, just a person of the opposite gender would do!), then I might very well come across to you as an inarticulate twit.

My experience with Microsoft interviewing

[amichalo]

I interviewed at Microsoft years ago for a summer internship.

They knew I was studying for a CS degree and my resume included several eCommerce sites I had build by myself.

When interviewing with one person, he asked me all these questions about writing code. As it turns out, he just wanted me to write a simple if..then or select..case statement - something very basic like that. I couldn't understand what the hell he was asking me to do. I remember being very frustrated that I couldn't "get" what he wanted. Now perhaps that was the test - communication skills - I don't know, but it pissed me off because once I realized what he wanted, I was totally competent to do it.

Another question was to figure out, outloud, how many natural blondes there were in the US. Just to see how one would approach the solution.

Over dinner, I had a discussion with a project manager about how to deal with a project with a fixed budget, staff, and feature set that was behind schedule. He said that there was no hope of implementing all the features in the alloted timeframe, no additional resources available, and the ship date was set. I thought to myself that this must be a common MS issue. Anyway, any suggestion I had, including figuring out what features were able to be modularized so they could be added in a point release, were dismissed. The only thing I would not recommend, which I think he wanted me to, was to cut QA - but I just don't agree that QA should be pushed to the early adopters, that just isn't acceptable to me.

That interviewing turned me off to ever wanting to work for MS and contributed to me trying out Linux and then switching to OS X.

I think there is a place for that sort of challenge, Mensa perhaps, but it broke down in execution because I doubt the interviewers were skilled in executing those types of connundrums so the process of working through them was much more about communication or an interviewing giving a "hint" than actually solving the problem.

As for the proveyourworth.com site, I liked the concept and challenge very much, though it shouldn't be used as the only interview criteria.

It's great if you want problem solvers...

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

... rather than people with the experience to avoid the problems in the first place.

Riddles are great when you want creativity, so they might be good for research jobs, but I'm not so sure they're really all that smart for IT.

Also, riddles can be bad. A notorious example is the nine-dots, think outside the box. Typically, you are given nine dots arranged in a 3x3 square, and asked to connect all the dots by drawing four straight, continuous lines without lifting the pencil. An experienced person will look at this set of customer requirements, and naturally assume that the customer really wants you to also stay within the constraints of the square, and try to negotiate the requirements. A creative, arrogant, smartass PFY will either draw the 4 lines outside the box (which happens to be the correct answer in the riddle, but would rarely be so in real life), or ask the customer a bunch of stupid questions before doing so anyway.

The only reliable way I know of selecting employees is to first hire a bunch of people as temporary workers (co-op/interships are great for that), then use your temp worker pool as a source for permanent employees. For the the workers who suck, you just don't renew their contracts.

double bagging

[Anonymous Coward]

Case 1
Man A, Condom 1, Condom 2, Woman
Man B, Condom 2, Woman
Man C, Modnoc 1, Condom 2, Woman

Lesson learned: if you are one of three guys with a woman, go first and double bag it.

Case 2
Woman A, Condom 1, Condom 2, Man
Woman B, Condom 2, Man
Woman C, Modnoc 1, Condom 2, Man

Lesson learned: if you are a man and have 3 women, make sure you have a condom and hopefully one of the women will bring more.

You failed.

[woolio]

implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*. They stated the test should take 3 - 4 hours.

Well, sir you failed....

It is impossible to implement sockets without libraries that are external to the C/C++ standard libraries.... Unlike Java, the C/C++ standard does not specify an inteface for sockets.. (And some might argue that even those consitute *external* libraries, since you are linking them in without having written them).

OTOH, you could have made life a bit simpler by assuming that "tcpd" (linux socket wrapper daemon) would be used.. in which case you could skip all the socket stuff, skip forking/threads, and just write your webserver using stdin/stdout...

Math class

[Mark of THE CITY]

My old middle school now offers pre-algebra in 6th grade for those on the fast track. This used to be no earlier than 7th grade.