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Xbox 360 adds 1080p Support
jayintune writes "2old2play has received news from the TGS (Tokyo Game Show) that Microsoft plans on releasing an update that will enable 1080p support on their Xbox 360 console. From the article, "users can expect 1080p upscaling immediately on current games and DVDs while native 1080p on compatible HD DVD titles." What could this mean for Sony now that MS has 1080p as well?" Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p? Who plans on buying a device capable of 1080p?
I have a nice big plasma hooked up to a digital tuner... and in Australia digital tv is very prevalent (as in, every station that used to transmit analog now also transmit's digital with very very few exceptions). On top of that alot of progs are 1080p, and a htpc looks great at that res too:)
Why wasn't this turned on by default?!
Is that 1080p/24, 1080p/30, or 1080p/60? Because 1080p/30 has the same bandwidth requirements as 1080i/60 (duh). I haven't seen from either Sony or MS any technical specs which indicate real 1080p/60 support, even over hdmi.
I have my 360 hooked up to my 50" Grand Vega 1080p. I honestly haven't experienced anything where I can compare 720p to 1080p when it comes to games, but if the difference is as good as it is with Video, i'll be happy!
The primary problems is that games for consoles usually are only made for that console for about 3~4 years. So the price drop on 1080p displays has to drop in that time frame to give me a bit of time to enjoy it.
A secondary problem I see is that consoles are consoles. They're supposed to be a standardized unit in which I can assure myself that everyone is having the same playing experience. This seems to no longer be true with the different models of Xbox360 or PS3 they are planning. And, frankly, it turns me off a bit. Is it a good thing that consoles are becoming more like computers? And if it is, why aren't we just buying a special USB controller from these companies and running everything on our computers?
My work here is dung.
While I do think that 1080p is a great thing, I doubt it is going to make people go crazy about it simply because 1080p is still a few years away from major distribution.
Some people will already be on 1080p and a few already are, but any sane company would go for the masses, not the less than 1 percent cake of people who are looking for top notch hardware.
I am definitely waiting for 1080p as my next TV replacement, but anything above $2,000 is just not gonna do it for me, so I'll wait a little longer and stick to 720p, which is also very nice.
Full Tilt
Me. Just as soon as I can find one without Digital Compatibility Prevention.
The next TV I buy, when the dinky current one gives up the ghost whenever, WILL be 1080p.
Why? Because the true 1080p, rear projection, 50" TVs are not much more expensive than a 1080i TV, but I plan on hooking up a Mac Mini or similar computer output, thus I'd want all the pixels when displaying text etc on the big screen.
Test your net with Netalyzr
My LCD monitor does 1080p just fine. What would have happened up until now if I plugged an XBox 360 into it?
Show of hands? Sure, I'll bite, I'm on of em. I have a 1080p set on it's way, and so do a lot of other people. Although a little pricey (but coming down all the time), every one of the highend Sony Bravia LCD's (40", 46", and soon-to-be 52") all support it. Lots of other manufacturers are chugging them out too. Don't be so quick to think Microsoft wasted their time on this. This is quite possibly the best reason for people who are buying new TV's now to get the XBOX360 instead of waiting for the PS3.
This is all great from Microsoft, but the TV's really need to start catching up. In the UK there are barely any true HD units out, the rest just replicate it even when branded as HD, which means that not only will this not help our gaming, but it will be pretty much redundant for most of the life of the console thanks to the saturation of HDTV in the UK being so slow. I think Microsoft definitely need to think about their target markets more and how technology is improving there, because it is all well and good making the console excellent for those who can run it on top-notch hardware - but that is bound to be a small percentage of those who buy the console.
Business Voyeur
If it is 1080p/30, I don't want it. 1080i with 60 fields per second will be superior.
Both have the same amount of detail, as they have the same resolution. But the interlaced version will feel smoother, because it's updating the screen twice as often.
So, is this just a vacuous PR stunt to try to get more attention back onto the 360? Surely not.
It works well. Surprisingly well. In fact *some* games will play at any native resolution, it seems. For example, DOA4 and Prey both seem quite happy at a nice 4:3 1024x768 (I have mine hooked up to a rather pathetic, ancient LCD monitor that cost far too much, many years back). Anyway, the point being that while there aren't that many people with 1080p HDTVs, I'm sure there's a lot of people who will be happy that they can hook up their monitors, and pick 1080p-scale resolutions (not that they couldn't already, according to the resolution selection screen). I have a 720p TV but find that even on a 1024x768 monitor, games that display letterboxed on it look far better than they do on the TV (text is much more readable in Dead Rising, for example).
like me - sigh. I have a nice 50" dlp - 1080i. At least it has hdmi - god willing it is compliant with the new hdmi standard. I got this about a year and a half ago - there were 1080p sets, but they were about double the price.
not to mention, everytime this subject comes up, there is a big discussion on whats 1080i vs 1080p and if hdmi supports "true" progressive mode and how refresh rates make all the difference...
samsung should have a trade in. i would hate to make this the "basement tv".
Dead Rising's text is just little blurry lines... *sigh*
Some people are like Slinkies - Not good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you push 'em down the stairs.
ps3 blue ray
xbox hd dvd
ps3 1080p
xbox 1080p
when does it ever end?
ipod
zune
google
some shite ms thing
Doesn't this kinda defeat the purpose of a console? That is, an unchanging hardware-platform that works with all the games. Now we have models with and without hard-drive, with and without 1080p...
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
I have a nice big plasma hooked up to a digital tuner..
Please state the make and model of your 1080p capable plasma set.
On top of that alot of progs are 1080p
Australia must be waaaaay ahead of the curve, I didn't think anyone had the bandwidth to broadcast in 1080p? I don't see why they would anyway since the number of people who can actually watch anything in 1080p can probably be counted on your hands.
I call BS on this one. I have no doubt that the op could have a 1080i, that's very common. And broadcasting in either 720p or 1080i is already estabished, his claims seem to be a wee bit over the top.
I recently bought a 50" Samsung DLP TV that has full 1080p support (no upconversion cheating etc). However, I have my 360 set on 720p instead of 1080i even because the 360 is NOT very good at upconverting signals into 1080 anything. I suspect their 1080p upconversion will be the same. My tv is much better at upconverting 720p to 1080p than the 360 is at upconverting from 720p to 1080i. This is especially noticeable on my NBA 2k6 game where the 360 upconversion is much more grainy and aliased looking than the one my TV does. I'm guessing that those of us with 1080p TVs will have to wait 4-5 years until the "next-generation" of consoles comes out that actually fully support it. Many of the games don't look really nice on my TV because it is large enough to magnify any flaws in the graphics and makes most games look more aliased since there just isnt enough resolution being pushed to the TV to look smooth.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
1080 lines of resolution, progressive scan (shows every line in every frame). You can thank me later.
"I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
Well, if they ever release an HDMI cable for the 360 you'll be in luck...
This guy's the limit!
Heck, everyone I know who owns a hi-def only has 720p capable TV's and they've paid their thousands of dollars on them. Haven't seen too many 40+ inch 1080p TV's that sit under $2000. I really would love to have one, but I can easily live without.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
I have a CRT HDTV. It's big, bright and clear and fun but a little fuzzy if you want to do PC stuff on it. Playing movies and games though is a fucking dream.
:(
It supports a bewildering choice of resolutions; not because it's got them all, but because it's so few. 480i. 480p. 1080i. It was sooo cheap (less than $300 at Thanksgiving last year)
I don't see why I would want 1080p; the 1080i mode is rock solid stable and has nice contrast. What I want is 720i or 720p support on my fucking TV, so I can buy a games console that runs in there or knock my PC resolution down to a readable level
Does the 360 even have the fill rate available to do 1080p with a decent amount of textures and effects?
Buddy of mine just bought a 56" Samsung LED DLP that supports 1080p
He has been telling me now for weeks he wishs XBOX360 was going to support 1080p, and this will make him happy.
My 56" Toshiba only supports 1080i, but I am sure my next TV will support 1080p, so this is a good thing.
err, you do realise 1080p is 1920x1080 right?
- "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
Errr....they did....in the last dashboard update.
My Site, My Life
If you want your DVDs to look exactly the same, only blurrier, then upconversion's definitely the way to go.
I have what I guess you could consider a first gen Hi-Def TV. Its a 52 inch rear projection Hitachi(not to be confused with those new LCD rear projections). It supports both 1080i and 540p. My hi-def cable box outputs 1080i for some channels and it looks crystal clear and my progressive scan DVD player which outputs 480p which is just as good to my eyes. However most channels, VHS players, and older DVD players all output 480i which does look like total crap (well, the DVD at 480i still blows away regular channels and VHS players).
When I go into stores and take a look at the TV's that sport 1080p they don't look much better, some look worse... much worse. Especially a lot of those lower-end brand LCD rear projections, they look much worse to me than my traditional rear projection Hitachi. I don't plan on upgrading anytime soon. I'll probably wait to see 50 inch and larger LCD flat panels with 1080p before I even consider it.
Plasmas are over-priced, wear out too fast, and get burn-in. LCD Rear Projection look comparitively bad. I think LCD flat panels are going to be what takes over once the sizes improve. So I'm happy with my 1080i/540p traditional rear projection and 5.1 surround sound for now.
... and in the DRM, bind them.
How about people with a 22in+ widescreen LCD monitor? (I guess some of those are 1050). Obviously this isn't dirt cheap, but a 50in 1080p DLP is around $2k. 2 years ago, the 720p was around $3k. Check fat wallet, LCD TVs are getting cheaper too. Given this is slashdot, I find it hard to believe people haven't pick up on the trend - things get cheaper.
Although I hate copy protection too, HDCP on the monitor is no big deal. It is the SOURCES that suck. Either way, I still find it amazing, given this is supposed to be a tech related site, how many people hate HDTV. Yes I hate the way FOX over compresses things, but otherwise the difference is HUGE. Those that can't see the improvement, well I'm sorry for your poor vision.
Me! I was waiting for nice 1080p games to go for it !
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
Here, let me rephrase:
FFS.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I'm like reading the summary and it's being positive about adding 1800p on Microsoft X360 adding 1800p no fuzz and no special requirements. Whaaa? Is this Slashdot or what?
And then this tagged on comment: "Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p? Who plans on buying a device capable of 1080p?"
Yeaa! Let's laugh at Microsoft for adding 1800p and we don't have any! Muhaha!
I've decided to hold off on getting an HDTV until I can get my hands on a set that meets the following qualifications:
- 1080p, 30 Hz (since it doesn't look like anybody will be producing content for anything better, I'd be able to use it for whatever I want for the life of the television)
- CRT (bulletproof compared to plasma and LCD)
- Under 40" (I have no desire to get a television I myself could fit inside of.)
Of course, such a television does not exist and probably won't for some time, so I probably won't be getting such a television (or any HDTV) for the life of the 360.1920x1080p/24 is the native resolution of Most (maybe all) HD-DVD disks and last I checked, no hd-dvd players supported 1080p. (This certainly may have changed recently). This opens up a big market for MS because they will be providing a relatively low cost hd-dvd player with 1080p support.
"Who will run their consoles on something capable of 1080p?"
Presumably anyone who is using a vga out cable to connect their console to a monitor* (as I do) *thats for consoles that actually support vga, not using a convertor box to adjust it.
"Success is based on knowing how far to go in going too far"
I have serious doubts that true 1080p is really practical in this generation of consoles. The reason being, the more resolution you push the higher the bandwidth and the higher the memory cost. I think developers that produce 1080p games will really be producing 720p games and letting the console up-sample. And that ultimately does little for quality. Lets look as some numbers
On a console running at 1080p you have 1920x1080 pixels x8 bits (for non floating point HDR) That means 15.8 meg per frame buffer. A game typically has multiple buffers it renders to (especially for post processing effects) so there is almost 32meg consumed just so you can display an image. If you are using true floating point HDR one of those buffers would be 32meg.
If you are rendering at 720p a frame buffer is 7 meg for 8bit and 14 for 32bit float HDR.
There is also an impact on fill rate. The 1080p requires more than twice the fill rate. That means (when fill-rate bound) the frame rate must be cut in half or the effects being used must be reduces.
On the PS3 with a practical fill rate of 15GB/s to local video memory, you can overdraw a 1080p scene at 60fps only 16 times. That has a serious impact on use of particle effects, multi-pass rendering, and post processing. At 720p that overdraw rate increases to 36 times.
On an xbox360 the eDRAM affords a greater fill rate (64GB/s) so it could better handle the demands of 1080p but it has to contend with the 10Meg limit on the eDRAM. This means a 1080p scene would require a 4 pass tiled rendering and a 2 pass for scene post processing.
So basically I don't think we will even see true 1080p games without those games reducing their visuals significantly. I would rather have a slick looking 720p at 60fps than a 1080p that looks last generation.
My parents have a TV that they got from their parents shortly after they were married, 30 years ago. I think the thing is close to 35 years old. It still "runs". My dad has said he'll upgrade when it dies, and he's been saying that for 5 years. So don't count on having your TV die anytime soon...
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
*raises hand*
I think the better question would be who didn't know what 1080p meant.
Post-rock/Ambient/Drone and other noise.
Do either the Xbox 360 Component HD AV Cable or Xbox 360 VGA HD AV Cable support 1080p ?
My guess is they don't - they certainly don't list it on the product pages in the links - so 360 owners will need to pony up for another cable, one capable of the 124MHz signalling needed to do 1080p/60 (so spec'd at ~350MHz).
Another question is, what about 1080p movies (if Microsoft sell a lot of the HD DVD add-on drives)? There's no HDCP path on the 360, so either the movie studios forget all about their latest copy-protection scheme and don't set the ICT flag on the discs (sh'yeah, right) or 360 owners could have an Xbox HD DVD player that does 1080p but have to watch the movies they buy at 480p. Ouch.
Laptop + wireless kb/mouse + couch = recipe for perfect relaxation and obesity.
aeb
Ice Cream has no bones.
Ok, so I admit I'm a Sony whore because of the PS[X] RPG library. So I'm not unbiased about the XBox360.
But I don't understand what Microsoft is doing with all these optional upgrades. I think another poster pointed out that consoles are meant to be standardized hardware platforms. So why is MS attempting to play catch up if features like Blu-Ray and 1080P are useless frivolities?
I mean a developer can create a Blu-Ray HD game without having to worry if the user has an external HD-DVD drive or provide a 1080P resolution option without caring if the console has been upgraded. I mean the next thing you know, MS will have copied a copier and provide motion sensitive controllers.
Actually, if you really want 1080p on the cheap (like I did) you can get it for a bit over $1000 by building your own LCD projector. Just use a laptop WUXGA screen. I've done this and am very happy with the results. When comparing it to a commercial projector there are downsides: size of the projector, light distribution isn't totally even (or as bright), colors aren't perfectly reproduced, contrast isn't as great. However, for the price it can't be beat IMHO. Those drawbacks aren't anything I actually notice when watching a movie, it feels just like I'm in a theater . I learned how to do it at the lumenlab forums: www.lumenlab.com
Yes they are! There are some percentage of consumers out there (younger males no doubt) that are deciding on which console to root for based on horsepower. Microsoft probably found an inexpensive way to help level the perception playing field with PS3.
Truth be told, it's really these consumers who are fooling themselves... "I get my self worth from my toys!"
Sony's line this year is all (native resolution) 1920 x 1080 in the higher end sets. "Full HD" resolution is one of their marketing elements. A 50" rear-projection such as the KDS-50A2000 can be had for about 2200, which, while expensive, doesn't qualify as an arm and a leg with plasmas touching the 10K price for larger screens.
Am I missing something? This is what you meant about the native resolution spec and 1080 lines of resolution, right?
I'll likely get a 1080p because of this. I've been playing 360 games on an old 27" Magnavox in a large room for the past 6 months or so (480i). Finally, I decided to upgrade my TV so i could fully enjoy the 360 experience. After doing a lot of shopping, I decided on a 42" plasma which supports 720p. I could have spent about $250 more for a 1080p LCD but why? The Plasma looks great, costs less and even though 1080p is technically better, I don't have a use for it yet and don't want to spend the cash future proffing when the technology is only going to get better and cheaper very quickly.
Suddenly the 360 supports 1080p. I have a 360! I can make use of 1080p right now!! Now I'm not future proofing for a price, I buying something I can use today. So why stick with the interim level of HD when I can move up and make use (would that constitute having my cake and eating it too)?
Now, all that said, I'd like to see some reviews before I spend my $$ but that should answer the question asked in the submission.
there are many issues here where it seems unlikely that the 360 with a software patch will be able to produce the same kind of 1080p results as a ps3 which was designed from the start to support 1080p. I'm truely skeptical with something like this that was capable, but not enabled at first.
I suspect we will see a lot of complaints about scaling existing games and lower content media. And only a small handful if any games that supposedly use 1080p.
I literally JUST bought a TV that supports 1080P. I bought a HD tv specifically with the 360 in mind. [It helps that my old 25 inch sony from 1995 just died over the weekend, and that best buy had a 10% sale, and that circut city matched prices 110%]
Glad I spent the extra $500 for a 1080p over a 720p set.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
I'm writing this using an LCD panel that is 1920 actual physical pixels across and 1080 actual physical pixels vertically. It cost less than $1400 to my door; well in the consumer range. This display (the Westinghouse LVM-37w3) is actually the second generation; the previous one (the LVM-37w1) came out more than a year ago.
The AVS Forum threads on these things are huge--there must be a fair number of people buying them.
It's not technically a TV since there's no tuner, but that doesn't matter for the xbox.
I don't want to sound like a fanboy here but...
OMFG XBOX SUX DIX!!!!!! M$ IS ROBBING YOU!!!!!111one BUY A WII NINTY FTW!!!!!!! OMGWTFBBQROFLCOPTER!!!!!!!!111
I'm sure it's very pretty, but between 780p, 1080i/p, upconversion, downconversion, scaling lag, contrast ratios and plasma fatigue, rear projection burn in, "magnifying" of graphical flaws, digital rights management, HD-DVD and BluRay, confusing and misleading specifications on TVs (is it true 1080p or is it just faking it, and how do I tell?), and not to mention price, I'm just sick to death of HDTV. These TVs are just too damn pricey to suddenly have half my games look bad because they're in the wrong resolution.
I think, maybe, I'll consider buying one in another ten years when things are more sorted out (and cheaper to boot).
It has TV-compatible inputs too.
But I would never buy a Microsoft product, so I'll have to consider the PS3.
I've a Westinghouse LCD at 1080p. I use it in NYC with the local cable company's HD (mostly 1080i, a few channels 720p) and a progressive scan DVD player. It all looks great to me.
- Mike
Once you've lost your temper, you've lost the argument - Me
Philips 42PF9830 ?
Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p?
Me. I have an *87 series Samsung 50" DLP and enjoy it very much.
If someone can afford to purchase a 1080p television, surely they can afford to spend a few bucks to purchase a XBox 360. I'm sure some people have moved past that, but for many console gaming is still a great way to spend a little time now and then.
So the question I have in response is:
Why wouldn't I have my XBox hooked up to my plasma or LCD?
Justin - Don't be afraid of my blog, it won't bite.
Xbox Live Arcade games. Simple enough to render at 1080p, with full frame rate and AA. The existing ones won't, but they can be patched, and new ones certainly could.
No reason why full games couldn't run at 1080p either, just as with the PS3. There are always going to be a handful of games that are simply not that demanding. Ports of previous-gen driving games with identical textures but 1080p rendering, anyone?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Not Hardware. All 360's that connect to 'live silver' (about 60% of them) can download the update for free.
My 1080p Front Projector (Sony VPL-VW100) with 9' diagonal screen will be quite happy with a 1080p game console. :) My looming issue will be switching multiple HDMI sources -- I would love to get a good Home Theater Processor that will switch HDMI video and decode digital audio from the HDMI stream. The PJ only has two digital inputs, and they are taken....
Why would I want a games console?
Because it's more power/space-efficient?
I have a Sony KDF-E50A10 TV with a native resolution of 1280 x 720, so I don't care about 1080i/p because my TV can't display anything 1080 natively. But for others with higher resolution HDTvs, is it even possible to accept a 1080p signal over a component connection? It was my understanding that 1080p is only offically supported on TVs with an HDMI connection, and even then only on TVs that support HDMI 1.2. Before everyone jizzes in their pants over 1080p, is it even possible for their TV to accept a 1080p signal?
People that spend tens of thousands of dollars on these things are generally not spending a year's pay on it, because they make a whole lot more than that per year. Larry Ellison's yacht may seem like a worthless extravagance to me, but if I had as much money as he does, I might be tempted to buy one.
Now, if you literally are spending an entire year's pay on a TV, then your debt structure must be astounding, because that's probably not the only large purchase you've gone into debt for. However, going into massive debt still doesn't mean someone has no life, it just means they suck at money management.
Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p? Who plans on buying a device capable of 1080p?
Criminy, CmdrTaco, please let Zonk do the game-related posts. Even if he doesn't know the difference between Xbox Live and Xbox Live Arcade.
But what's the deal with this flamebait? Is the point to this hypothetical (I assume) question to point out that both Sony and Microsoft's support of 1080p is pointless because not a lot of people have televisions that can display it? You make it sound as if it's a zero-sum game... like by adding 1080p support Xbox 360 will... I dunno, stop playing older games or something.
Maybe I don't have a 1080p TV now. That doesn't mean I won't in 2 years, well within the lifetime of the console. In addition, it's not like adding 1080p support took away something else. So it's a win-win situation.
Hell, 3 years ago, when original Xbox started supporting 480p on the dashboard, I was very grateful for it. (My TV, a Zenith, won't show 480i plugged into the HD port. So to use the Xbox dashboard originally, I had to actually plug the Xbox into a different input, then switch inputs again to play games) But I suppose if that news had been posted here, it would have had some snide comment like, "what kind of dumbass has a 480p TV that doesn't already show 480i? God what a rube!"
Comment of the year
I feel more sorry for me. I imagine if you have a television like this it didn't cost "a year's pay" but actually only a fraction of it. Of course, I think it would probably cost me a couple of years pay.
-buzz
With the price of a "full power" XBOX and the price of a "full power" 1080 TV why wouldn't people upgrade their existing PC and buy a videoprojector, I play on my PC in 1280*1024, and if I had 1500 Euros to spend I'd buy a videoprojector with HDMI, connect it to my video board (they ALL have HDMI since 2 years) and beat the crap out of XBOX/PS3 and so on, on top of this my gaming platform would also be available to do other stuff than gaming
The console craze started with the PSX had it's justifications in the fact that it was MUCH cheaper than a PC, if now a console is more expensive than a PC which you can upgrade every 2 years or so (try changing the GPU in a console) I fail to see the point FOR THE CUSTOMER
Bottom line is that if you buy a console you're stuck for 3-4 years with the same system, when the system is superior in performance to a PC you pay a fortune for it, and the price only goes down when the "next generation" is about to come out, NOW would be the perfect time to buy a PS2 for example....
I personally use the VGA cables to do 1280x720 and it looks great. If I can hook up a DVI cable to the PS3 then I'll do the same for it.
I currently have a PS2 and a PC hooked up to my Dell 24" LCD. It is my gaming/graphic design monito, but it gets more gaming. If I get a 360 and when I get a Wii, they too will be hooked up.
" Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p? Who plans on buying a device capable of 1080p? "
Well, I do not...yet. I have been planning on buying a new HDTV for my 360. Now that I know that my xbox will do 1080p, (which we probably should have expected all along) I will certainly begin shopping for a new TV/display that does 1080p.
...not that I'm a pirate.. Hell I've never even fired a cannon. - oldwolf13
I've got 1080p and it is great! Check out my review of the Westinghouse LVM-37w3. I've been using the TV as my primary computer monitor for about 3 months now. I picked it up open box at Best Buy for under $1400. This new development in XBOX 360 land makes me really want to pick one up since I've been on the fence anyway. Now I could have a media center, game console, and HD-DVD (1080p) DVD player for $400. That's a lot of value considering current prices for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players.
Exactly. I bought a high-end ($250) DVD player that upscales and I regret it. There is a difference between native resolutions and upscaling. BluRay and HD-DVD put out native 1080p. If upscaling was worth it, we wouldn't need hi-def DVDs like BluRay and HD-DVD. Upscaling the game won't match the native resolutions put out by the PS3, but the average consumer will see the term 1080p on both and think there isn't a difference.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I have a 37" Westinghouse 1080P LCD as my PC display, and a recently purchased 47" Westinghouse 1080P LCD as my TV. Both are readily available, the former for about $1.5K and the latter for about $2.5K. Here's the endless thread on AVSForum if you want to read more, but I assure you these sets offer simply incredible viewing/playing experiences.
It seems like a lot of people out there are missing the point. Yes, just from reading all of these informative *mostly* correct posts, it is obvious that we will not see 1080p games this generation. ok, fine. This does not mean that 1080p TV's are useless. Both the xbox360 and ps3 are the cheapest HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players, so if you are a gamer, enjoy your 720p games and the free (ok, maybe a built in cost, but you get the point) blu-ray player to display your 1080p movies! (even if they do display in 1080i) My 50" Sony SXRD 1080p is f'ing beautiful, and I can't wait to queue up all the Blu-Ray discs on Netflix once I get my PS3..... And kill all this talk about no 1080p TV's under 2K, cuz it's just not true anymore...
That the Xbox360 has a video scaling chip in it. This means that most games are sill rendered at 720p, but are then scaled up to 1080i or whatever output resolution you have specified in your console settings. This is the same scaling technology that newer cable boxes use.
What does this REALLY mean?
Well, first off it means that Microsoft will finally be releasing an HDMI cable for the Xbox360, which many, many people have requested. People who do not use the HDMI hookup will not be able to take advantage of 1080p.
Also this does not mean that gamers who have televisions that support 1080p will not see an immediate quality boost from their Xbox360. Games that say they're 720p will still be rendered at 720p, so game image quality will not go up. BUT, what this does allow for is content that is mastered in 1080p (HD-DVD or perhaps a future game, but that is doubtful) can now be displayed at full resolution.
HD AV cables support 1080p, the standard is analog your TV just has to know how to sync the signal. Its the digital interfaces which are bandwidth limited.
As for the show of hands:
I have a 54" HD DLP Television and I am enjoying the 360s HD output quite a lot. These TVs are no longer in the 5000 dollar range. I got the most vivid one in it's class for way under $2000. I mean you can get a 40" one with only 2 inputs at walmart for under $800. At this price it costs less than my 35" CRT low def television did. The 1080p thing has just made the previous generation models dirt cheap. You guys have no excuse to keep moaning about HD adoption. It costs less than a pc upgrade.
----- 70% of all statistics are completely made up.
You are a piss poor video engineer if you think that no one has a 1080p set and you can buy one at best buy sub $2k. I have a Westinghouse LVM-W42 which is 1920x1080 = 1080p - there is also an AVS forum thread about the Westinghouse 1080p line that is a mile long, and tons of people are purchasing them because the quality:price is great. Sounds like the only thing you are familiar with is projectors, which only a small set of the population have for watching TV.
Wouldn't this make the XBOX 360 core console the cheapest standalone (not computer) HD-DVD player? If they do a Christmas special for $300 or less, I think that would be a good value (if one has a 1080p display) even if someone only has a few 1080p HD-DVDs they own (or rent through Netflix). For certain moving pictures, like the ones that win Academy Awards for scenery, visual effects, set design, etc., it would be nice to watch them in 1080p resolution IMO. I would have to believe that there won't be many titles worth watching that are available exclusively on Blu-Ray, in other words, HD-DVD outta do it.
apparently the HD-DVD drive will launch in japan on Nov. 22 for about $180USD.
I find this odd for several reasons. a) There is no "Xmas shopping craze" in japan. b) they'll miss out on said craze in North America.
The only reason why I can see them doing this is because they're getting really desperate to get some units out in japan. Selling 1000 consoles a week just isn't going to cut it, and they know that. Well, you gotta give them some credit for being persistant. Not many companies can fail so badly in a region and STILL pump all that money into it.
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
Not over component. The last update added upconversion for VGA only.
"640x480 ought to be enough for any*whack*."
No, I require porn at higher than 640x480.
Remember kids, tin foil doesn't work, so use LeadHat.
I concurr, and I'm fresh out of Mod points
I always thought of Creationism as the Raving Right's version of the Loony Left's Anthropogenic Global Warming-brightmal
Seriously, someone says they have a 1080p plasma (which I, frankly, doubt since they're so rare -- most likely it's 1080i or 720p, and there's no 1080p broadcast content in AUS, but I digress) and you go off prosteletizing your anti-TV opinions based on some completely groundless assumptions. Specifically, none of the following are known to be true by you, and probably aren't:
- His plasma TV costs "tens of thousands of dollars."
- Owning a $20k+ TV means one's life is otherwise empty.
- Owning a $20k+ TV means one does not have a family.
- Owning a $20k+ TV means one has not accomplished anything of lasting value.
- Owning a $20k+ TV prevents having real relationships.
- The TV cost the GP poster a year's pay.
- Your priorities and concepts of values are indisputable universal truths.
Now, re-reading those claims, it looks to me like you are exactly opposite of what a reasonable person might assume would be the case in several cases.Hey, I'm no big fan of TV either, but I do have a 42" LCD, I only paid $1500 for it, and it's not used all that often. But it is really nice for watching a movie or playing a game. Your assumptions are so ridiculously out of touch with reality that you just come off as a grumpy, jealous, pathetic little person who thinks their value judgements should be shared by all.
everything in moderation
I often hear similar about games consoles, and whilst I'm not a fan of them it does give me a way to explain why I want a Wii. I don't want it to play on my own, I want it because it looks like it will have several games which are great for grabbing a friend/family member or two and playing. Sod 360/PS3's FPS madness, I want Wii sports!
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
There were multiple 1080p projectors at CEDIA recently retailing for under $5k. It wsn't that long ago that people were happily paying nearly $4k for 50" DLP HDTV's at 720p and Plasmas. You'll see 1080p below $3k before the end of 2007 and when you consider how many PC gamers are already playing at 1600x1200 HD gaming is far from a new or expensive option. As usual the marketing bandwagon has people thinking what they want them to think so they can get them to part with their cash. PS3 or XBox + 1080p TV for hi def gaming - $4k - $5k Dell desktop bundle + Nvidia GT7950 for hi def gaming - $1200 Not listening to marketing and thiking for yourself - priceless
My Gamecube isn't currently connected, but it previously was (the video connector is still plugged into the display, if not the console), even though it's far from being capable of outputting 1080p.
1080p means no more page tearing on fast moving objects! yay for crisp clear images.
bob and weave
p > i
"Infecting minds with my own memetic virus, one post at a time." Ultimape
I have a Sony KDSR60XBR2 which does full 1080P. I have a game cube connected to it now. My next gaming system purchase will be in part influenced by whether or not a system supports 1080P.
Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
According to High-Def Digest, the photos of the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 does not have an HDMI output. 1080p over component only is problematic - particularly if the movie studios turn on content protection. So, having 1080p output without the digital path to the display is not such bit thunder, IMHO.... See http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Microsoft/X box_360/High-Def_DVD_Gaming/No_HDMI_for_Xbox_360_H D_DVD_Add-On/248
I think the problem is you consider a $250 DVD player high-end. I am not flaming you by any means my DVD player came in under a cool hundred bucks and it works great for my lil 27 incher. I would assume a higher end dvd player ($500-1k) would do a better job but you really need to appreciate movies to drop green like that.
You are all a bunch of idots.
Err, you do realize that 1600x1200 is about 93% of the resolution for 1080p (in total pixels rendered), right? It's a very, very small difference. Not defending the PC gamers vs. the Console gamers (I actually use both, and tend to prefer the consoles for most games, but I'll be dead before I play Civ4 without a mouse and keyboard.)
-30-
I have been playing games at 1920x1200 on my laptop for almost 2 years now. Depending on the game anywhere from ~40 fps to 90.
Technophile
Just make sure that if you buy a 1080p TV, you get one that has a 1080p input! I bought a sony KDS-R50XBR1 SXRD 50" about 6 months ago which was marketed as a 1080p display. The specs show that it can display 1080p, but none of the inputs support it! Of course, now they have a new model with a shiny new name (Grand Wega SXRD 50") that has a HDMI 1080p input...
And yes, my living room was root-kit'd.
Tell the moon dogs, tell the March hare
I wouldn't hold my breath. Most people not only don't have 1080p, they won't even have HDTV until 2010. Until the price drops quite a lot, to where the average joe can spend less than a Nintendo Wii for an HDTV, it's a case of the tail chasing the dog. The dog is still sitting lazily in front of the fire, and will stay there until prices drop.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I try to keep up on this stuff as much as I can, but it is starting to get impossible. It was my understanding that component cables top out at 1080i. I am not sure that DVI can do 1080p, does anyone know about this? I am sure that HDMI can. I thought that HD-DVD barely had enough storage to put out a 1080i signal, and that they still haven't implemented 1080p. Is the HD-DVD peripheral going to include support for this? There is a cable to convert HDMI to DVI, like the one Sony includes in their Blu Ray laptops, but i did not know of any device that can do the opposite. I thought that eventually the movie studios were going to insist that everything be done through HDMI and anyone who was trying to play High Def discs through DVI were going to be SOL and would have to resort to a lower resolution. Are new Xbox360 games going to support this, or are they just going to have the hardware upscale or de-interlace everything? I also heard that Microsoft will be selling the HD-DVD attachment for 200 bucks, and that it most certainly will not be able to be used for games. Paying $600 for a PS3 doesn't seem like so much money if you take into account how much you are going to have to pay 2 years down the line for a frankenbox with all sorts of dongles hanging off of it to get the same functionality. Blu Ray will have won the High def battle the instant the PS3 launches. I'd be loath to buy one of these attachments only to have to buy a Blu Ray attachment next year. People may argue that this thing will catch on, but I think it's still all too confusing. People know if they buy the PS3, they are well positioned to take advantage of our glorious HD future. The 360 still has so many questionmarks involved. If someone would please let me know if I got any facts wrong I'd appreciate it. I'm doing my best to understand the differences between these two formats and I'm still confused as hell.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that there is not even a TV on the market that can support the Sony PS3's dual HDMI connection for 1080p at 60 fps? Last I read that 1080p30 has the same bandwidth as 1080i60, which is the max of each HDMI connection as per the standard. Hence, dual HDMI connectors like we have dual DVIs for large LCDs.
I just bought a 50" DLP, a Sony Grand Wega, from Circuit City. It was advertized at the store as a 1080p TV, but in actually is only a 1080i TV according to the manual. I will be returning it due to analog to digital conversion lag (e.g. even with Game Mode on, Halo 2 is sufficiently lagged up to tell the difference between my 32" CRT and the 50" DLP), and the bitter taste in my mouth about not being able to do 1080p60 with a $2000 TV. Not to mention the lack of DVI connectors... don't even get me started, but the sooner HDMI is hacked and I can connect my computer digitally to the screen the happier I will be to lay down $2000 for a High-Def TV.
They can be had for under $1200 now, and that's only about 4x the price of the xbox (and you can keep and use it longer).
Anyone who buys a non-1080p or better display at this point is being foolish.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
I'm well aware that media that can take advantage of 1080p is slowly coming out. However, my comment was written in response to pjr.cc's claim that he is using a 1080p plasma (very few exist) to receive 1080p signals in Australia (where there are no 1080p signals). Claiming that you are actively using something to receive signals that don't exist is very different from claiming that you intend to use something down the road.
This guy's the limit!
Now honestly, show of hands: who has their console (not PC!) connected to a display device capable of 1080p?
I do.
Who plans on buying a device capable of 1080p?
A second one? Yup.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
Most people with good eyesight would probably notice a marked difference in detail between a 480i and 1080i signal, or even a 480p and 720p signal. The transition from standard-def to hi-def, while somewhat sluggish, is underway because people can appreciate its benefits.
But is anyone actually going to notice a difference between 1080i and 1080p? Or will it be a simply psychological effect found in those that pay $100/ft for special speaker cable where the "electrons are properly aligned" or what have you? "I paid a premium for this hardware, therefore it MUST be better!"
Damn straight.
This is why I bought an ED Plasma TH42PWD5UY. DVDs are only 720x480. The Plasma's native resolution is 852x480, which means no vertical scaling (perfect 1:1 scaling), and DVDs look fantastic on it.
What if there isn't a difference? Consider: Sony has already backed off on their original intent to make every PS3 game 1080p (as they've backed off on so much about the PS3), which would seem to indicate that the balance between graphics horsepower and desired detail isn't there to push that many pixels and polygons. Thus, most PS3 games will likely render at 720p/1080i, outputting whichever resolution is requested in the system settings. If the same is true for the Xbox 360 with most games rendering in 720p/1080i and a few future games taking advantage of 1080p, then there is no difference on this count between the two consoles.
Keep in mind that the media is virtually irrelevant. For example, a PC game that comes on a couple of CDs could still be rendered at multiple high resolutions. The only real advantage of Blu-ray in this area would be its ability to store more static 1080p content.
I should also note that there's a huge difference between upconverting from 480p to 720p/1080i/1080p and upconverting 1080i to 1080p. The latter process can be done with virtually no artifacting because it's a simple line-doubling exercise. For a better comparison, hook a (regular NTSC) DVD player up to a digital TV that upconverts NTSC signals to 480p and see how nice that looks - since NTSC and the ATSC 480p standard are close in "resolution" the change to progressive looks great (with a good original signal of course).
In fact, I almost did.
I've seen 1080p rear projection TVs for under $2,000 at Circuit City.
About a month ago, after wanting a flat panel television for 10+ years, I bought the Westinghouse LVM-42w2. Far as I know it does support 1080p over all its inputs that it would apply to. Here is a link about the monitor (yes, no tuner built in):
0 p-monitor.aspx
http://www.westinghousedigital.com/pc-44-7-42-108
I currently have my XBOX 360 setup for 1080i, and my computer hooked up over DVI. I have a dual montior setup, so the LVM-42w2 gets my secondary desktop at 1920*1080 and my 20'' widescreen (Dell) gets 1680*1200 or something similar. .
However, maybe I am wrong, but I thought the 360 did not upsample DVD's, only games. I can not remember where I read that. Anyway, I am very happy about this coming upgrade as I am sure while maybe minor to my eyes, it will still be appreicate.
By the way, for those wanting to know. I got it at Best Buy (yeah yeah I know I know), for 1700 dollars. Delivered next day. Also, I had to look online for what other users had done for the settings, and followed them and that helped greatly. As for the supposed power issue, I have version 1.0 (I think they are up to 1.16 or something), and never had it happen to me. But if it does, Westinghouse will come and flash your monitor for you to fix it.
Current 1080p capable widescreens can be had for less than $2k. As an example, Mitsubishi has several. Here's a 50-inch: http://www.fotoconnection.com/viewitem.php?IndexID =52698&RefTag=froogle
Many computer monitors also support this resolution (or greater). WUXGA resolution is becoming more common, and monitors can be had for $700:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.a spx?sku=320-4335&cs=19&c=us&l=en
And that's a 24-inch monitor.
Yes, I own a 1080p capable monitor now, and I plan on buying a larger 1080p capable monitor in the next year (perhaps a projector -- about $3k for 1080p capable) I'm already enjoying the benefits of HD as well as the xbox 360 outputs. Sports (in particular) have now become almost unwatchable in SD for me. Sort of like once you've tried Tivo -- you can't go back.
And yes, you can see image artifacts at 1080i. The damn interlacing always makes bricks (in particular, but any small horizontal detail line) flicker with movement. Upscaling to 1080p (even if the original source is 1080i or lower) fixes that.
So yes: HDTV is great. 1080p is great. That it makes 1080i stuff cheaper is great, too.
http://www.bluesky-web.com/numbers-mean-little.htm /
Some excerpts:
Another parameter 1080i advocates use to advance their cause is resolution. Resolution is the ability to preserve the separate components of fine detail in a picture, so that they may be discerned by the viewer. But picture quality is not dependent on resolution alone. Numerous studies of perceived picture quality reveal that it is dependent on brightness, color reproduction, contrast, and resolution. Color reproduction is identical in all HDTV scanning formats, and may thus be disregarded as a factor. A typical study assigns the following weights to brightness, contrast, and resolution:
Contrast 64% Resolution 21% Brightness 15%
Resolution, then, is only a factor, and not the largest factor, in the determination of the subjective quality of a television picture. This was well illustrated in an industry meeting of professional video engineers that took place a few years ago. At that meeting, two direct-view (cathode ray tube) monitors of the same size, shape, and brand were fed the same HDTV signal. One of these monitors was priced in the $40,000 range, while the other was priced in the $4000 range. The $40,000 monitor unsurprisingly had a picture tube of far higher resolution capability than the lesser priced monitor, but the lesser monitor, because of its larger pixel "dots", had the higher contrast ratio, the relationship between the lightest and darkest parts of the picture. With a single exception, the engineers preferred the pictures displayed on the lower-definition monitor. While they seem at first glance to contradict intuition, the results of this demonstration are consistent with all the published literature on the subject.
and...
"Television pictures move, so when we consider resolution, dynamic resolution is typically a more important factor than static resolution."
and...
Finally, let's take a closer look at the display. The resolution of any type of display is dependent on its dot pitch, which effectively defines the physical size of the dots, or screen pixels: the higher the resolution, the smaller each dot must be. We see this when considering computer monitors or printers: a 600 dot-per-inch printer makes a sharper image than a 300 dot-per-inch printer, and a 0.28 dot-pitch monitor makes a higher resolution image than a 0.50 dot-pitch monitor, and of course the higher resolution printer and monitor cost more than their lower-resolution counterparts.
In order to fully resolve a 1080i picture, a display screen must have about 6 million dots, and for 720P, the figure is about 2.75 million dots. The larger the number of dots required, the smaller each dot must be, and the smaller the dot, the less light it generates. The full resolution of 720P may be displayed using dots three times larger than 1080i for a given screen size, and this gives the HDTV viewer a brighter picture with a higher contrast ratio. As an added bonus, the lower resolution display is less expensive to make.
We saw previously that the real vertical resolution of 720P pictures is better than that of 1080i pictures. It is also true that the additional horizontal resolution that 1080i boasts cannot be displayed on any currently available consumer HDTV display of any technology. Fortunately for the viewer, it is not necessary to the enjoyment of HDTV. An instructive illustration is the much-admired digital cinema, where micromirror projectors are used to project theatrical features onto screens that may be 50 feet or more wide. The horizontal resolution capability of these projectors is 1280 pixels, the same as that of 720P, and we have not heard anyone complain that digital cinema has inadequate horizontal resolution.
Micromirror projection is one of several advanced display
Don't get me wrong, 1080p is nice all things equal (such as cost and availability of content) but it really doesn't make a big difference over 720p. Furthermore, as the poster points out, it's only for MOVIES. Not for games. So the PS3 still has a technical advantage even though I really don't think it matters. On top of that, almost no one has a 1080p display in their living room. I have one in my computer room (23" LCD 1920 x 1200), but in my living room I have a 720p resolution HDTV.
And, yes, I'm a Sony fan. But I just don't think 1080p matters right now, even in the living room. You have to have a large display to see the pixel difference between 1080p and 720p anyway. It's mostly a bragging right.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
To put even more "law-sounding," any scaling whether to a bigger or a smaller resolution ALWAYS degrades the image. The best upscalers degrade the image minimally but you can NEVER improve the image by upscaling it.
BUT, DVDs always have to be upscaled when you're watching it on a 720p/1080p/whatever fixed pixel display like LCD. It is occasionally the case that a tv may have an awful scaler and your DVD player has a good scaler, but that is a matter of which is degrading the signal less, not that an upconverting DVD player is "improving" the signal.
The same can be said for any a/v component that claims to improve the signal by way of modifying it unnecessarily.
You obviously missed the most important statement in his post:
"Most People"
His argument wasn't how some people can get by. He specifically said that PC's were becoming obsolete, and I counted with why I felt it would never happen. It wasn't a personal attack against him; it was just another way to look at things.
When someone tries to speak for the masses, you can't defend them by saying "well he said he didn't do it". If that's the point, then maybe he should just speak for himself.
Will consoles have native support for VGA or DVI outputs so we can all use our nice computer monitors that support well pass 1080p/60? Is there a reason that TVs and consoles go together better? Isn't a TV just a specialized monitor? with possibly different inputs? and maybe a tuner?
I spent nearly 5 months looking for a TV which had a NATIVE 1080p resolution (1920x1080) and that would accept a 1080p signal on component, DVI and HDMI inputs. I was never able to find one that supported 1080p over component inputs but I finally found an affordable unit in the Westinghouse LVM-42w2 that did provide all the other functionality that I wanted.
I didn't find any sets during my research that could accept 1080p over component cables even in the $6K to $10K range.
My guess is that Microsoft will release a new cable in either VGA, DVI, or HDMI format in order to allow people to actually enjoy the benefits of a true 1080p signal.
do you mean upconversion to HD? SOMETHING will be upconverting in a case like that, whether it's the device or the TV. as long as you can turn it off on the device, it's a great feature to have in case you end up with a TV with crap conversion.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Keep in mind that the media is virtually irrelevant. For example, a PC game that comes on a couple of CDs could still be rendered at multiple high resolutions. The only real advantage of Blu-ray in this area would be its ability to store more static 1080p content.
While what you say is true, there is another advantage of Blu-ray, no(?) disc swapping. One thing to consider is that games on a PC get installed to a hard drive so they can come on multiple CDs and you only have to swap during the initial install. Unfortuntely, The Xbox 360 didn't put a hard drive in every unit so swapping discs at some point will come into play. If done right it won't be bad though, it didn't bother me on Resident Evil 4 for the Gamecube. While I'm no PS3 fanboy, I do love larger capacity media and I think at some point it will be a big advantage for the PS3. Games are likely to just get bigger and bigger with more and more detail. Resistance: Fall of Man would take three DVD-9s to put on another system with how much space they are already using (could probably be knocked down to two though.)
Quote from Ted Price (Insomniac Games) "The second topic that has been surfacing a lot lately is our support of Blu-ray as a medium. Yes it is true - we are currently using more than 20 gigs. And yes, we do compress our level data. The fact that we store so much on disc is actually not that surprising when you look at the numbers. Consider that even with compression, each of our "levels" (or loaded areas) has more than 300 megs of unique data. And keep in mind that we're also streaming data during level playthroughs. It doesn't take too much level data before you've gone past what can be stored on a dual-layer DVD. And between single player and multiplayer we have a lot of level data (over 40 different large loaded areas) - yes, more than will fit on a dual layer DVD. We also include a lot of data in the form of game movies in both HD and PAL formats, high quality audio streams for all supported languages and some of those Insomniac "extras" that our fans have come to expect. I realize that some people will still be skeptical unless we provide an actual layout of the disc. But for now I wanted to give you some better info."
Err, you do realize that for $40, the best graphics card you can buy is either Nvidia 5xxx series (may be 6200LE) or ATI 95xx series, right? You tell me how many frames per second you get with that running 3D games at 1600 by 1200 resolution. You would be lucky to get 10 to 15.
My PS3 and my Rev will both be attached to the same five year old 27" (i think) standard def CRT tv that my PS2 and GameCube are currently connected to. I upgrade my PC on a somewhat regular basis, i upgrade my consoles, i don't really see any compelling reason to upgrade my tv.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
852x480? With no scaling, wouldn't you always have black bars on the side? If so, what is the point of having the Plasma display at 852 instead of 750? What content would actually fit in that weird 852x480 resolution?
General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
Your arguement is based off a good deal of assumptions with little to back them up.
First you assume that upscaling is comparable to native resolutions. This simply just isn't the case. Upscaling is never as good as a native resolution. Blowing up a JPG, using scaling in an emulator, or using a DVD player or TV that upscales and you will see the proof is in fact in the pudding.
Next, you assume that because Sony isn't promising that EVERY game will be 1080p that means MOST will be 720p. There is no way to tell what MOST games will run until well after the system launches. What I do know is that the XBox 360 hardware doesn't have the power to run at 1080p at decent speeds. For it to generate content at 720p or 1080i at full speed, it must then also have processing power to spare to then scale (via software or hardware) to 1080p. If they didn't have the processing power in the first place to generate the native resolution, where is the scaling power coming from? If I were to make an assumption, I would assume there might be lag. Why do I make such an assumption? Because I have seen the proof of it.
Presently people who own expensive TVs that upscale already complain about the lag generated by upscaling. This is a slightly different issue because the "lag" comes from the fact that the upscaling is happening outside the XBox, but upscaling does take time and power. Turn scaling on or off in an emulator and watch the effect on your FPS. There is a very noticable effect. You write this off and assume upscaling will come with no trade-off, and at magically better image quality than upscaling has been able to pull off historically.
Your last argument assumes that the upscaling will come from 1080i to 1080p, and that line doubling produces no artifacts. Again, fire up any popular emulator and use a simple 2x filter to double lines and see what you get. It is far from the native picture. Next, Microsoft has said that EVERY game is designed around 720p, not 1080i. The XBox 360 can put out an 1080i picture, by upscaling the native 720p image. Since the game is designed to run at 720p, it won't be a simple line double to produce 1080p either way.
Mind you I buy every major console every generation, and I'm not a fanboi. These are just the facts.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
That is why I listed the price because I know that are levels in DVD quality. Most "higher" end players in the $500-$2,000 range actually increase primarily in sound quality over picture quality that I've seen. I already have a very killer sound system, and I'm pretty happy with the sound quality.
My $250 DVD player I got on open box for $80, but it is considerably better than your average $45 DVD player. Even so, my point is that upscaling wasn't as incredible as I thought it would be. The picture doesn't really look any better than the native resolution. And I am a stickler for such things. I just can't afford the really high-end systems.
Money goes to the baby and wife first, and me last.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Or, perhaps they're really good and managing their money.
I think the upscaling solution is aimed at the person who cant afford the higher end kit.
But then im cheap.
--- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
He said no vertical scaling
--- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
As an aside, the PS3 supports the HDMI 1.3 spec while allows for a full 1080p/60fps signal to be transferred. The PS3 also has a digital VGA port on it that will output 1080p/60fps. While one can agrue points against the PS3, you can't say that the machine isn't 'future' proof for gaming in terms output and storage capacity.
But back to the point at hand... Considering the Xbox 360 is currently incompetent from a technical standpoint when it comes to displaying 1080p, I think this can only lead to one of two conclusions:
I just snagged the Dell 2407WFP for about $800
Dell 2407WFP
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2006/06/23/Dell_
According to that review, it's generally the same as the Samsung 244T, though the Samsung has better color
Samsung 244T
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=26
I know. I am just trying to figure out how the picture will look. If a DVD is 720x480 and his plasma does 852x480, than there is no scaling at all. It would distort the image if it did horizontal scaling without vertical scaling. So I was just wondering if he has to watch DVD's with black bars on the sides to make up for the difference between 852x480 (his plasma) and 720x480 (DVD).
General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
I was only commenting on the parent, who seemed to imply that there was a very large difference between 1080p and 1600x1200 -- I'm not gonna judge the cards available. He just annoyed me by ignoring basic math. ;)
-30-
How do you recieve news from a convention that hasn't even started yet?
You're right, I'm sorry. I should have said "I feel sad for anyone for whom watching TV is worth a year's pay for five hundred third-world workers who spend their lives making the consumer goods that you have decided you must have."
Pardon me all to hell.
You are welcome on my lawn.
the main thing 1080p is good for is marketing right now. Bandwidth wise 720p and 1080i are the same. With the advent of LCD/DLP televisions 1080p came to market as a sort of step-child.. it's not really an offical standard, but because things like LCDs don't understand the idea of interlacing anyway the manufactures thru it in there. There's no such thing as 1080i on an LCD... it's linescanned to 1080p by default of how LCDs work. But adding the feature is a checkbox serious people think they need so why not.
Does this mean all backwards compatible original Xbox games and every DVD movie will output at 1080p over regular VGA? If so, I'm sold on it. This awesome monitor of mine could use a good workout.