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Teleportation Gets a Boost

saavyone writes to tell us Yahoo! News is reporting that while teleportation may not quite be a reality yet a team of Danish scientists have raised the bar on this line of research. From the article: "The experiment involved for the first time a macroscopic atomic object containing thousands of billions of atoms. They also teleported the information a distance of half a meter but believe it can be extended further. 'Teleportation between two single atoms had been done two years ago by two teams but this was done at a distance of a fraction of a millimeter,' Polzik, of the Danish National Research Foundation Center for Quantum Optics, explained. 'Our method allows teleportation to be taken over longer distances because it involves light as the carrier of entanglement,' he added."

405 comments

  1. Please... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 3

    will a physicist explain what this means? I have a reasonable understanding of physics (for somebody who hasn't studied it) and I have no idea what this means. Does it mean that we can apply energy in some way and make it go somewhere else instantaneously (the more traditional definition of teleportation)? Probably not, but then what?

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    1. Re:Please... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      OK, I RTFA, but still don't get it (they're talking about quantum computing; the "teleported" thing being info). So, is this really teleportation, in the traditional sense? Is it instantaneous? TFA talks about "a split second", but as far as I know, that's a pretty qualitative term.

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    2. Re:Please... by vriemeister · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'll try, one sec

    3. Re:Please... by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 5, Informative

      This process allows you to copy quantum information from one set of atoms to another without measuring it, and thereby destroying it.

      It's still isn't anywhere near dematerializing the matter and poof`ing it across the room/planet. However, what is happening is the quantum information (in this case, the spin state) of the matter has been instantly transported. That is a essential step in building a quantum computer or cryptography network.

    4. Re:Please... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, stuff like actually unbreakable ciphers. However, are we really teleporting?

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    5. Re:Please... by pscottdv · · Score: 2, Informative

      One of the fundamental laws of physics is that particles are "exchangeable." Essentially, this means that any two electrons or protons or whatnot are identical so they can be exchanged without changing the physical system (there is a complication related to whether a particle is a fermion or a boson or [in the case of a 2D system] an "anyon").

      So, if I can transmit information in such a way as to make one group of particles be in exactly the same quantum state as another group of particles, I have "teleported" them in some sense.

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    6. Re:Please... by vriemeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      A technical explanation would take too long and people would just argue with me anyways so heres a summary -This is not 'traditional' teleportation -It works at the speed of light, there's nothing strange going on here, although it is related to what you might have heard referred to as 'spooky action at a distance' With quantum teleportation you aren't teleporting a THING, you're teleporting a property of that thing without actually measuring that property. Sounds crazy but here's an example: suppose you have two helium atoms and using light you are somehow able to give the second atom the momentum and spin of the first atom but in the process you change the momentum/spin of the first atom. You've basically changed the second atom to be exactly like the first but they call that teleportation. And effectively it is. The reason its so nifty is you don't have to measure or know these properties to transfer them. Thats the quantum part of quantum teleportation. Beyond that, I have no clue how they're applying a property of light to an atom.

    7. Re:Please... by tloh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That yahoo article isn't really saying much at all. There is almost no real information on how they did it. Scientific American has a much more detailed description. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&arti cleID=000E9691-0261-1524-826183414B7F0000

      In taking the next step, Eugene Polzik and his colleagues at the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen shined a strong laser beam onto a cloud of room-temperature cesium atoms whose spins were all pointing in the same direction and fluctuating according to their given quantum state. The laser became entangled with the collective spin of the cloud, meaning that the quantum states of laser and gas shared the same amplitude but had opposite phases. The goal was to transfer, or teleport, the quantum state of a second light beam onto the cloud.

      To do so, the group mixed a second, weaker laser pulse with the strong laser and split the superimposed beams into two arms. A detector in one arm measured the sum of the beams' amplitudes and a detector in the second arm measured the difference between their phases. Neither measurement disturbed the delicate entangled state between the light and cesium. But the researchers could use the results to apply a precise magnetic field to the cesium vapor that effectively canceled out the ensemble's original spin state and replaced it with one that corresponded to the polarization of the weak pulse, as they report in the 5 October Nature.

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    8. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation

      Put simply you can record the quantum states of an atom/particle(or your entire body) and then send this information using a classical channel like radio. Once this information gets to your destination(eg Mars) the guys at that end can use that information to affect some particles over there, and because of Quantum Entanglement, those particles on Mars will instantly take on the recorded state. The particles at the start will then lose their state due to the no cloning therom(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_cloning_the orem). So you can teleport, but you can't teleport at greater than the speed of light because you still have to send the data to the destination.

      Note that it's not technically "Teleportation", you are just changing the states at the quantum level.

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    9. Re:Please... by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's really quite simple. The system involves two opaque boxes (A and B), both with closable lids,.

      One operator places the item to be teleported in box A and closes the lid. The operator of box B then opens the box and observes the contents. By doing so, the item appears in box B.

      This works because of the way particle physics works. Any object may be in multiple places until it is actually observed. By hiding the item from one operator, the location of the item becomes unknown, and therefore the other operator is able to transport it to them merely by observing one of the locations it may have travelled to.

      Really, this is elementary physics and it's surprising how rarely we take advantage of it. I actually go to work every morning by going to the bathroom, alone, closing the door, and then phoning a collegue at work, asking him to open the cubicle door at the bathroom there. By keeping my eyes closed at the precise moment he opens the door, I am able to ensure my own location is unobserved, and therefore that my precise whereabouts are unknown until my collegue opens the door and observes me. It's very useful and saves a lot of gas, but has the disadvantage that you have to rely upon there being someone whereever you want to travel to that you can contact who can observe the contents of a previously unobservable man-sized space. Also there's the danger that two people might do the same thing at once, in which case there's the danger of a time/space paradox being created.

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    10. Re:Please... by partenon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Translating...

      Its not a:
      $ mv source target

      Its a:
      $ cp source target

      Oh Gosh, now I fully know quantum computing!

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    11. Re:Please... by partenon · · Score: 1

      ROTFLMAO PMP

      Man, you are simply insane =D

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      ilex paraguariensis for all
    12. Re:Please... by venicebeach · · Score: 1

      Isn't this effectively a way of measuring quantum information without destroying it? You copy the info then measure it on the copy, not the original so the original retains its state?

    13. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually it is a
      $ mv source target

      Because of the No cloning theorem(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_cloning_th eorem) which "forbids the creation of identical copies of an arbitrary unknown quantum state"

      --
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    14. Re:Please... by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh yeah, yer like being all smug and shit about it now, but just you wait until the day comes when he opens the door and observes you dead.

      KFG

    15. Re:Please... by BeBoxer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've basically changed the second atom to be exactly like the first but they call that teleportation. And effectively it is.

      I think most people's concept of "teleport" is something else entirely. What the physicists are doing is something more aking to "faxing". Granted, it's really high-quality faxing, but faxing none the less. But "quantum faxing" doesn't have the same ring to it.

      Fundamental to the concept of "teleport" as all non-physicists know it is that the matter being teleported moves from one place to another. In this case they "teleported" atoms of Cesium. But they started with Cesium atoms on both sides of the "teleporter" at the beginning and the end. They didn't "teleport" the Cesium any more than a FAX machine "teleports" paper.

    16. Re:Please... by partenon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I realized that by reading a lot of comments here :-) Its probably more like this:

      $ cp source target ; rm -rf source

      (actually, I think mv does exactly this, but just to be explicit :-) )

      --
      ilex paraguariensis for all
    17. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bravo!

    18. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So, if I can transmit information in such a way as to make one group of particles be in exactly the same quantum state as another group of particles, I have 'teleported' them in some sense."

      I have to disagree. By transmitting "information" you have only transmitted STATE not the actual INSTANCE. There is a difference. State transmition is duplication not teleportation.

      For the laypeople amongst us, if you are jumping up and down and you yell to your friend, "hey jump up and down like me", and he does so does that make your freind you?

    19. Re:Please... by Hawkxor · · Score: 1

      copying the quantum information destroys the original, it's a fundamental property

      however, if we are speaking about teleporting something bigger, it may turn out that we only need to copy the non-quantum information about the particles, which would actually make it duplication more than teleportation.

    20. Re:Please... by ebyrob · · Score: 1

      I think it's more like:

      a := a xor b
      b := a xor b
      a := a xor b

      Though whether a is actually preserved or just mangled I'm not sure of from the earlier description.

    21. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 1

      Just thinking, it's probably closer to:
      source$ measurestate source > sourceinfo
      destination$ measurestate target > destinfo
      source$ scp sourceinfo destination
      destination$ combinestateinfo sourceinfo destinfo -o target
      source$ rm -f source -- this line would be automatically run by a magical watchdog program. :P

      Because you need "partial" measurements from both the source and target, then you perform an operation on the target to incorporate the info. And you are actually transferring the "state" of the object, not the object itself.

      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    22. Re:Please... by Hawkxor · · Score: 1

      however, it occurs to me that if this latter possibility (no need to teleport quantum information) was the case, quantum teleportation even in the first case would preserve the original, since it wouldn't matter that the spins of all the atoms in the original get mucked with.

    23. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Now you're just making stuff up!

    24. Re:Please... by DrVomact · · Score: 4, Funny

      And if two physicists were to accidentally emerge in the same stall, they'd be a pair o' docs?

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    25. Re:Please... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1
      stuff like actually unbreakable ciphers

      One-time pad encryption has been mathematically proven to be unbreakable. It also takes little computing power.
      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    26. Re:Please... by JPeMu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's also a nice article in the Sept 30 issue of New Scientist (although this article is related to the study of bridging time-continuum in order to effectively "modify" the past).

      Although the article isn't a "teleportation" article, it does provide a fairly in-depth explanation of the principle and implications of entanglement. The article then takes this one step further by suggesting that if the two paths that the entangled photons took were then themselves split, but splitting the second path an additional length (using fibre optic cable), the two paths would take different time periods to complete, however by using photon detectors, it would be possible to determine which of the 2 sub-paths the entangled photons took, in spite of the fact that the 2nd entangled photon had not yet made that "choice" yet, effectively providing some form of "clairvoyance" ;)

      Using a crystal, [Univ of Innsbruck, Austria, researcher Birgit Dopfer] converted one laser beam into two so that photons in one beam were entangled with those in the other, and each pair was matched up by a circuit known as a coincidence detector. One beam passed through a double slit to a photon detector, while the other passed through a lens to a movable detector which could sense a photon in two different positions.

      The movable detector is key, because in one position it effectively images the slits and measures each photon as a particle, while in the other it captures only a wave-like interference pattern. Dopfer showed that measuring a photon as a wave or a particle forced its twin in the other beam to be measured in the same way.

      To use this set-up to send a signal [through time], it needs to work without a coincidence circuit. Inspired by Raymond Jensen at Notre Dame University in Indiana, [John] Cramer then proposed passing each beam through a double slit, not only to give the experimenter the choice of measuring photons as waves or particles, but also to help track photon pairs. The double slits should filter out most unentangled photons and either block or let pass both members of an entangled pair, at least in theory. So a photon arriving at one detector should have its twin appear at the other.

      [snippety snip]

      His extra twist is to run the photons you choose how to measure through several km of coiled-up fibre-optic cable, thereby delaying them by microseconds. This delay means that the other beam will arrive at its detector before you make your choice. However, since the rules of quantum mechanics are indifferent to the timings of measurements, the state of the other beam should correspond to how you choose to measure the delayed beam. The effect of your choice can be seen, in principle, before you have even made it! That's the idea anyway.

    27. Re:Please... by slack-fu · · Score: 3, Funny

      ACTUALLY it is like this:

      # mv source target

      everyone knows you have to be root to teleport SHEESH.

    28. Re:Please... by GmAz · · Score: 1

      I liked the explanation, but this seems great for inanimate objects. What about consciousness? I mean, you can 'teleport' a brain, but will the signals go with it and will the brain retain memories or will it be a exact copy of a body but no 'life force' in it?

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    29. Re:Please... by TheUnknownCoder · · Score: 2, Funny

      copy con teleport.bat
      @echo off
      cls
      echo.
      echo Now teleporting...
      move /Y a b > NULL
      REM sleep 30s (OMG! It's taking long this time! IT'S WOKRING!!!):
      PING -n 31 127.0.0.1>nul
      echo.
      echo Done!
      ^Z

      --
      Uncopyrightable: The longest word you can write without repeating a letter.
    30. Re:Please... by mattcoz · · Score: 0

      It will likely retain all memories and everything, the person that is assembled on the other side would believe that it really teleported, but is it truly the same consciousness? The problem is, there is no way to ever know for sure.

    31. Re:Please... by cxreg · · Score: 1

      asking him to open the cubicle door at the bathroom there.

      your bathroom is in a cubicle? are you one of those outsourced programmers I've been hearing so much about?

    32. Re:Please... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      The 'life force' is a concept that was invented for Star Trek and other TV shows. Please don't confuse it with reality.

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    33. Re:Please... by Cunk · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. Good question. Perhaps you'd like to volunteer to help them answer it.

      --

      I am the inventor of the hilarious refrigerator alarm.
    34. Re:Please... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      If the technique is changing the spin of an electron, does this mean it could potentially be used to transmit energy? Could this be used as a way to make beamed power a reality, since power transmitted in this manner would not be attenuated by the atmosphere (since it doesn't pass through the atmosphere) or accidentally miss the receiver?

      --
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    35. Re:Please... by Brobock · · Score: 1


      Put simply you can record the quantum states of an atom/particle(or your entire body) and then send this information using a classical channel like radio. Once this information gets to your destination(eg Mars) the guys at that end can use that information to affect some particles over there, and because of Quantum Entanglement, those particles on Mars will instantly take on the recorded state. The particles at the start will then lose their state due to the no cloning therom(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_cloning_the orem). So you can teleport, but you can't teleport at greater than the speed of light because you still have to send the data to the destination.


      There was an Outer Limits episode I believe called "Think Like a Dinosaur" where they would teleport the information and once verification was received, they would then vaporize the person due to the no cloning rule. However, what made outer limits what it is, is that they didn't receive immediate verification so they could not destroy the body. Later there was confirmation and the scientists had to kill her.

    36. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately we won't know until we give it a try. There has been alot of research into that subject for a while now with no definitive conclusion. This guy http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/overview.html/ certainly thinks it is, while a (hopefully) less biased article on wikipedia is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain/

      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    37. Re:Please... by brendan0powers · · Score: 1

      for ubuntu users, its $ sudo mv source target

    38. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 1

      Sorry, take the slashes of the end of the URL's.

      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    39. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > ...is it truly the same consciousness? The problem is, there is no way to ever know for sure.

      And if you DID know for sure, and then teleported yourself somewhere, would the person on the other end really know for sure, or would it just be a COPY of that knowledge???

    40. Re:Please... by ray-auch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This process allows you to copy quantum information from one set of atoms to another without measuring it, and thereby destroying it.

      If you can't measure it in the first place (and the original gets destroyed in the process), how do you know that what you end up with is a copy ?

    41. Re:Please... by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Informative

      What this boils down to is if I go into a teleportation chamber in Site A, Site B will have a block of mass that will eventually become me; atom by atom.
      Then the ME at Site A gets destroyed or reassembled as someone/something else.

      Lets face it, this is what we all want this to come down to. Walk in a room that essentially becomes somewhere near the Swiss alps for lunch and walk back to be home for dinner. Telecommute anywhere.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    42. Re:Please... by caitsith01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seems to me that you would create an exact duplicate of the original person, who would feel and believe that they were the same person. However, they would not be the same person - the original person would (presumably) be dead as their constituent particles are ripped apart from their spin etc changing.

      --
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    43. Re:Please... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      I think most people's concept of "teleport" is something else entirely.

      I'd disagree - surely "Star Trek" is an example of the popular conception of teleporting, and I always interpretted that as transmitting information, not matter. Indeed, are there any sci-fis where the matter is transported, rather than reconstructing a copy at the other end?

    44. Re:Please... by bcat24 · · Score: 1

      You mean a fax machine DOESN'T teleport paper?! It's a lie! I'll never believe it. Next you'll be trying to convince me that the Internet really is a truck!

    45. Re:Please... by Woldry · · Score: 1

      How about "Shadowfaxing"? You can use your Shadowfax to move things rapidly across great distances.

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    46. Re:Please... by Iron+Condor · · Score: 5, Informative

      $ cp source target ; rm -rf source
      (actually, I think mv does exactly this, but just to be explicit :-) )

      And nobody has corrected this yet? Is this really Slashdot?

      The "cp" operation will temporarily consume twice as much space as the original before the original is removed. Actual data is being replicated. "mv" (at least within the same file system) will leave the data where it is and merely change where the pointer (i.e. directory entry) that points to it is stored. With your version you have two files temporarily and a possible duplication if the operation fails due to a power outage somewhere in the middle. The normal "mv" operation could leave you with NO files (the data is still there but unaccessible) depending on how it's implemented. (No, not on journalling file systems, but thats something else again).

      In particular, a "cp ; rm" will delete your original if the cp fails due to, say, a full destination disk. So at least a "cp && rm" is advised. Which can fail, for example, if some of your source data is unreadable. While "mv" will still work, since the source data is never actually touched. Depending on your filesystem, default flags and implementation, "mv" will often also not change the last-access or creation-timestamps, file ownership and/or file permissions which may or may not be changed by cp. Also the permissions needed in the source and destination directories can be different for the two.

      Really - what's up with you folks out there? Why aren't there 20 posts pointing this out already?

      --
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      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    47. Re:Please... by nappingcracker · · Score: 1

      no no, one of the outhoused programmers...

      nyuk nyuk nyuk

      --
      |plastic....or gasoline?|
    48. Re:Please... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 2, Funny

      Umm, Windows has a sleep command

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    49. Re:Please... by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      The 'life force' is a concept that was invented for Star Trek and other TV shows. Please don't confuse it with reality.

      Sorry, you're wrong on both parts.

      1: It's an older concept than TV. (Going back at least to Frakenstein, btw -- depending on how you parse your definitions)

      2: There really is something distinct about "life" that "not-life" doesn't have. It may be inherent to the particular balance of matter and energy that resides in a living thing, but there's "something." the right answer to teh question is "we don't know, but since the actual bits of you change all the time anyway, we don't think it'd be a problem."

      Please don't confuse science with reality. It's arrogant.

    50. Re:Please... by BeBoxer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      surely "Star Trek" is an example of the popular conception of teleporting, and I always interpretted that as transmitting information, not matter.

      When Captain Kirk gets beamed down to the surface of a planet, where does all that matter come from which constitutes his body in the new location? There is no transporter on the receiving end with a stockpile of matter. How big of a vacuum would it leave behind if you just sucked up surrounding gas until you had enough? Put another way, if you tell somebody you are going to teleport a block of gold from box A to box B and then announce "and to begin, I will place a block of gold in each box", they will cry foul. Are you saying you wouldn't?

    51. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The correction is:

      $ cp -r source target ; rm -rf source

      mv will move files and directories alike, but cp needs -r to copy directories.

    52. Re:Please... by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 1

      Because this is slashdot, a telepotation thread degraded into a *nix lecture.

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    53. Re:Please... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 3, Insightful
      1: The 'life force' as it appears in Star Trek is a purely fictional invention that has nothing to do with reality.

      2: Your stuff about the balance of matter and energy is something you made up (unless you can cite me a reference) and has no bearing on reality.

      Please don't confuse the contents of your head with either science or reality. It's stupid.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    54. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 1
      Then the ME at Site A gets destroyed or reassembled as someone/something else.
      Technically yes, although the state particles at site A actually become undefined. Meaning ANYTHING could concievably created from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal to a nuclear explosion depends on how the quantum waves collapse.

      Walk in a room that essentially becomes somewhere near the Swiss alps for lunch and walk back to be home for dinner. Telecommute anywhere.
      Again yes. The speed you "teleport" is restricted by the speed of light though. So it'll still take a couple of minutes to get to Mars.
      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    55. Re:Please... by Xybot · · Score: 1

      Sounds more like they were transferring the quantum state of a Bose-Einstein condensate FTFA - "onto a cloud of room-temperature cesium atoms whose spins were all pointing in the same direction", in which case isn't this more or less the same process as transmitting the quantum state of a single atom?

      --
      God was my co-pilot, but then we crashed and I was forced to eat him.
    56. Re:Please... by drgonzo59 · · Score: 1
      In fact, according to the current theory you would _have_ to be destroyed. It is impossible to make a copy of an entaglement without distroying the original. Now we are not even talking about transporting objects here, just information, so this is most relevent to quantum computing. The fact that copies cannot be made means that in the hypotheical QC circuit you cannot have a Y-split.

    57. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If copies can not be made, can you still build in error correction?

      It'd really suck if a dust mote wiped out the data for recreating my heart.

    58. Re:Please... by WilliamSChips · · Score: 3, Funny

      Actually, it's sudo make me a sandwich.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    59. Re:Please... by I(rispee_I(reme · · Score: 1

      Does the process require the original to be destroyed? If not, perhaps this knowledge could be used as readily for duplication as for teleportation.

    60. Re:Please... by Dg93 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Your explanation is correct only in the case where source and target are on the same filesystem (assuming the file system supports the concept of inode/directory entry relocation. If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter if it is even on the same filesystem, it'll still do a copy/delete).

      TYFP,DT

      --
      --Dg
    61. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    62. Re:Please... by clambake · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's closer to:

      $ cp source target && cat /dev/urandom > source

    63. Re:Please... by Gentlewhisper · · Score: 1
      2: Your stuff about the balance of matter and energy is something you made up (unless you can cite me a reference) and has no bearing on reality.


      What's the difference between a piece of meat that is in a living cow and a piece of beef that is at the butcher? Answer that and you have an answer to the above statement.
    64. Re:Please... by SteveAyre · · Score: 1

      Basically true. :) And the reason it's so useful is that you don't need to read the state first atom to transport it, which nicely gets around the fact that quantum mechanics prevents you reading something and it having the same state afterwards (beforehand it has a probability of being in each possible state, after reading it can only be in the state you saw it in). It does unfortunately for that reason destroy the original though.

      On a macroscopic level it might be possible to transport an object in the Star Trek fashion, by copying every property of every atom in the first object to another object. The second object would have the same quantum state as the first did (but no longer has) so theoretically is identical and therefore effectively 'is' the original object.
      The problem is that you need something to copy to, something much like equal mass displacement except the problem is you might even need the same particles/atoms/molecules, in the same locations and everything. In which case the object you want to transport is already there anyway.

      You also have the problems of whether we'd be copying every quantum property (what of the ones we might not know about) and the metaphysics question of whether anything like a soul would go with it if it was an animal/person being transported.

      It's incredibly useful for quantum computing, whether it'll ever be of use on a macroscopic level is a very different matter.

    65. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A gets mangled.

      More like:

      cp a b
      cat /dev/urandom > a

    66. Re:Please... by SteveAyre · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately it must be destroyed, as quantum mechanics prevents us copying (well, cloning) anything. Look up the No Cloning Theorem for the technical explanation and mathematical proof if you're interested. :)

    67. Re:Please... by SteveAyre · · Score: 1

      And in this pre-FLT universe, that's a problem how exactly? ;-)

    68. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A piece of meat in a living cow and a dead piece of meat at the butcher shop are both made up of the same elements. The atoms in them react to the other atoms and energy around them in exactly the same way.

      However, the meat in the cow has a flow of glucose and oxygen coming in through the circulating blood, and the cells have been metabolizing these to maintain their cell walls and growth processes. There are also hormones, neurotransmitters, and other chemicals.

      The meat at the butcher's has lost its source of energy and is unable to metabolize any longer, so it has begun to break down chemically, but the chemical processes are essentially the same. The processes of living matter are a subset of chemistry.

      So I would say the difference between the two is merely their circumstances.

      But then, you know this and choose to see something more anyway. Be sure to give the Nobel Prize folks a call when you manage to pinpoint the unique non-chemical nature of "life."

    69. Re:Please... by SteveAyre · · Score: 1

      Philosophy time!

      If you have a person with identical body, memories, personality, beliefs, thoughts etc and the original no longer exists, are they the same person?

      There is a theory I've heard that on a quantum level the universe is permanently ripped apart and recreated, so this may already be happening to you right now. Not sure what it's called or where I heard it though.
      If so, what's different about this?

    70. Re:Please... by SteveAyre · · Score: 1

      Yes, in fact it's pretty much required to make a practical quantum computer (because the pesky environment interacts with the computer, reading the quantum states when, say, a particle collides with one in the computer). But you have to do so without copying anything, so they aren't based on redundancy like classical error correcting codes.

    71. Re:Please... by radtea · · Score: 1

      However, what is happening is the quantum information (in this case, the spin state) of the matter has been instantly transported.

      False.

      All transmission effects in quantum entanglement based information transmission (QEBIT)--commonly and misleadingly called "quantum teleportation" for some strange reason--happen at the boring old speed of light.

      There are aspects of quantum entanglement that are nonlocal, but all actual information (stuff we can use, stuff that has operational meaning) is transported via whatever hunks of matter or energy that are carried at perfectly finite speed along the transmission channel.

      The important thing to remember about QEBIT is that if you stick you hand in between the source and the reciever, you will get a hole burned in it by the perfectly ordinary particle beam that is necessary to actually get the information from A to B. The information is entangled in the physical carrier particles in such a way that it cannot be eavesdropped upon disturbing it, but in other respects it is no different than encoding information by modulating a carrier wave.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    72. Re:Please... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      You've just given me a great idea. We place heavily shielded pods as close to the sun as we are able, this allows us to collect energy being radiated closer to the source where it is much more concentrated. Then we use a counterpart here on earth to recieve the energy.

      It doesn't even have to be particularly efficient since the energy collected is insignificant on a cosmic scale and is going to waste anyway.

    73. Re:Please... by Frumious+Wombat · · Score: 1

      So, picture the following scenario:

      You have a foreign head of government you don't like. You "teleport" yourself to his position, and suddenly he's you. Half of me says, "way overdue" and the other half says, "erk... I'm not sure I'm ready for that kind of future".

      The voice of thousands speaking in unison, "Hugo Chavez of Venezuala, We are the George Bush of America. Prepare to be assimilated."

      --
      the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
    74. Re:Please... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      That's the basic idea behind beamed solar power - and I'm afraid it's been covered quite heavily in sci-fi, so you're idea's not totally original :)

      The main problem has always been getting power from there to here, since standard methods of transmission would result in so high a loss of energy as to make the idea impractical.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    75. Re:Please... by ananamouse · · Score: 0

      Funny, I thought it was more like
      >PIP [7,11]=DU0:[7,1]SOURCE.BIN/NV

    76. Re:Please... by gforce811 · · Score: 1

      So, hypothetically, are you saying that I could get a mound of dust particles on mars to take on my body's characteristics, but then my actual body here on earth would randomly get changed somehow (i.e. - some amorphous blob or something)? That blows my mind thinking on that large of a scale...

    77. Re:Please... by Liam+Slider · · Score: 1

      Ever since you were born, throughout your childhood, and through the years since then every single piece of matter/energy in your body has been continually swapped out for new matter/energy. Cellular level, molecular level, atomic level, even at the sub-atomic level you are not the same, physically, as the various versions of you throughout your life. But you are the person who existed for that whole time, right? Of course you are. Because what you are is less about physicality, and more about the pattern that is you, that exists within the ever changing physical matter that currently composes your body. Since this is about the quantum teleportation of that pattern (and the pattern does get teleported, and cannot be cloned) then the subject who arrives on one end of the teleport is the same person who left from the other end.

    78. Re:Please... by espressojim · · Score: 1

      Can you please send me a one time pad, and guarantee that it isn't intercepted?

      AFAICT, that's what quantum encryption is all about - getting that one time pad over the wire, and knowing if someone has attempted a man in the middle attack.

    79. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you call THAT teleportation, you might as well say that there are only as many electrons in the universe as there are different quantum states of electrons, which is probably not that many.

      Just because a thing has the same quantum state and is interchangeable does not mean it is the same thing. I might as well say, there is only one G5 CPU in the world, since they are interchangeable. I guess it's a pretty cool chip, since it has the ability of appearing at several places at once, eh?

    80. Re:Please... by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, I think it's more like:

      101010110101101001010111000111100000000001101011 10101001001010011111001010100101010100101010100101 01110100101010010101010011

    81. Re:Please... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
      30 years ago scientists would have told you teleportation in any form was the thing of star trek and not at all possible... now we know a lot better.
      If you think someone has performed teleportation like in Star Trek then the article was clearly way over your head.
      How does it feel to be a fool?
      Stop showing off. You know that's the one thing you know more about than me.
      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    82. Re:Please... by crossconnects · · Score: 1

      tubes

      --
      no big sig
    83. Re:Please... by Kuxman · · Score: 1

      The internet is actually made out of tubes... duh

      --
      http://www.asti-usa.com
    84. Re:Please... by fmobus · · Score: 3, Funny
      Unfortunately it must be destroyed, as RIAA prevents us copying (well, backing-up) anything.
      There, corrected a typo for you
    85. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was just saying, its copying the data, not transporting the data. He just said it in an amusing way. There are a lot more problems with his analogy than those you've pointed out. It was meant to be funny. Laugh.

    86. Re:Please... by light_rock · · Score: 1

      The fundamental idea is that quantum scale particles, say, electrons, or whole entire atoms, have a fixed set of properties.
      If you have another one exhibiting the same exact properties, spin, charge, etc., then it is like a twin brother, or "identicle".
      There is a phenomenon called "entanglement" where if you split say a photon you get two opposite halves, and there are very very strange experiments that suggest if you change one of those split pieces "here" it changes instantly the other one over "there" calling into question the very concept of what distance really is made out of, because nothing can travel faster than light, how can you instantly change something, say a billion light years away ? - that kind of strange, and that kind of meaning of the word "entanglement".

      So this new method is like, shine a light, say, just maybe two photons at the same atom, the are both absorbed and re-emitted, yet, they were changed by "being absorbed" and when they leave again, they "carry" that change with them. Spin, polarity, whatever.

      This information then continues on to another atom similar to begin with to the first. Now the photon is again absorbed and reemitted. This time it leaves behind the "knowledge" spin, polarity, etc., in the 2nd atom.

      Theoretically, under ideal conditions you set up the experiment so the result is that the 2nd atom takes up the same exact properties as the first atom.

      The first atom is necessarily "broken" in the process, meaning it is no longer set up the way it used to be.

      The "macroscopic" situation is even more interesting, they say, "billions of atoms" which means those atoms can be standing together perhaps in a "substance" like maybe a salt crystal, with other things going on like "chemistry" - covalent bonds and all that.

      So... they might "in effect" be able to make an atomically identical substance, one diamond to another, or whatever their substance is. - in theory.

      What did they actually do ? Something very similar to all that.

    87. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "cp" operation will temporarily consume twice as much space as the original before the original is removed.

      The teleportation requires twice the amount of material ("data"). Effectively it is
      $ dd if=/dev/material of=destination size=$size_of_original
      (this creates the destination)

      $ dd if=source of=destination || dd if=/dev/zero of=source bs=$size_of_original count=1
      (this is the teleportation part)

    88. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It works at the speed of light"

      vriemeister, I'm not sure if I correctly interpreted what you were trying to say there, but Quantum Teleportation occurs instantaneously. This is what is supposed to be "spooky" about "Spooky action at a distance". Einstein coined the term, as he just could not believe that information of any kind could travel faster than light, nevermind instantaneously.

    89. Re:Please... by orthogonal · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I liked the explanation, but this seems great for inanimate objects. What about consciousness? I mean, you can 'teleport' a brain, but will the signals go with it and will the brain retain memories or will it be a exact copy of a body but no 'life force' in it?


      I liked the explanation, but this seems great for non-burning objects. What about fire? I mean, you can 'teleport' a log or a charcoal briquette, but will the fire go with it and will the fire retain flames or will it be a exact copy of a log but no 'phlogiston' in it?

      Dude: state is state. If you teleport an object's entire state, you end up with an object with the same state in a different location. Consciousness is just a property of (certain kinds of) matter in (certain kinds of) motion. It's nothing magic.

      Alternately: when you move your head, does your consciousness or memories or "life force" or "soul" somehow "leak out" or get left behind? What would move with your brain but not teleport with it?
    90. Re:Please... by TheJase · · Score: 1

      Solar power is beamed to begin with isn't it? From the Sun?

    91. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious... Since it's impossible to measure the spin before the "teleportation", how do they know that the correct spin was being teleported in the first place?

    92. Re:Please... by albyrne5 · · Score: 1

      I never ever heard the word "mote" before, you learn something new every day ...

    93. Re:Please... by LittleBigLui · · Score: 1
      $ cp source target && cat /dev/urandom > source


      Please note that this doesn't work on older versions of Einsteinix, where /dev/urandom is symlinked to /dev/god/nodice.
      --
      Free as in mason.
    94. Re:Please... by UnHolier+than+ever · · Score: 1

      You still know what the original state is. If you put a cat in a box, and then you don't look in the box, you still know there was a cat in the box. When we say "the original gets destroyed in the process", it means that if we try to re-measure the original qubit after teleportation, then the information is not there anymore because the supporting atom/photon/spin state has now been randomized.

    95. Re:Please... by squoozer · · Score: 1

      If only I had mod points... I struggle to believe you need to tell people that there isn't a magic life force.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    96. Re:Please... by testadicazzo · · Score: 1

      I'm going to give it a shot, but I'll probably be full of inacuracies. The article itself is not a scientific one and is full of misleading language. I am a physicist, but I work on computational techniques for modelling light interactions with matter, so I don't do work in that field. A couple years ago I read some papers (real scientific ones) to understand this field a little, and I'm operating now froma an unreliable memory. If someone knows what they are talking about I appreciate any corrections.

      What I think I can say truly is this: teleportation is a hugely misleading term for a process whereby information can be transmitted instantly from one one particle to another, the classicle example being spin on a photon. The idea of quantum teleportation was originally put forth by a group of scientists, Einstein, Podalsky and Rosen, who were opposed to some of the tenets of what is often called the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Einstein was deeply offended by by some of the implications of quantum mechanicsBasically they constructed a 'gedanken experiment' (thought experiment) where they showed that it was possible to produce two photons which must have paired spin (to conserver angular momentum). The copenhagen interpretation dictates that until you measure or perturb these photons, they are in an state where they are simulataneously both spin up and spin down. When you measure one photon, it will be spin up, and then, instantaneously, in order to conserve angular momentum. Einstein called this "spooky action at a distance", and it was one of the more disturbing aspects of QM philosphically. This phenomenon became known as the "EPR paradox".

      Well, technology progressed, and a research team (I think at IBM?) was able to do the experiment, and they showed that this phenomena happened, sorry Einstein. They called it 'quantum teleportation' becuase it's a sexy name, because the information is being transmitted instantaneously , and becuase having a sexy name increases your chances of getting funding and press recognition.

      So when they talk about teleportation between two atoms, they are talking about instantaneous transmission of some kind of state between two atoms. A more correct way of saying it is collapsing the wave function between two entangled atoms, but that doesn't sound as sexy as teleportation, and both terms are equally meaningless to a layman.

      So what this means is, in a pretty restricted way, information can be teleportaed, as the spin of an atom contains information. Bridging from this to matter teleportation isn't even theoretical yet. They only share a word, and the word was chosen no doubt to evoke some sense of excitement.

      The article is of course devoid of any really scientic content, but from what I can tell, what this group of researches has succeded in doing is entangling a photon with some atoms and then demonstrating quantum teleportation. A less sexy way of saying this is to say they have demonstrated instantaneous simultaneous wave collapse on a system consisting of a photon and several atoms. But that would certainly generate less media attention wouldn't it?

      Just to make a point: This is pretty cool and interesting research. I don't fault scientists for trying to give their research a sexy spin (ouch, terrible pun-- spin, get it?). I think it's a positive thing for science to get a little more limelight. I just emphasise the etymology behind teleportation becuase there is a lot of misconception in the public eye regarding q-teleportation.

      Hope that helped.

    97. Re:Please... by testadicazzo · · Score: 1

      Actually, and I've done a longer post on this so please read it if you are interested, the reason quantum teleportation is called teleportation is becuase the process occurs faster than the speed of light. It occurs instantaneously, which is why Einstein referred to is as "spooky action at a distance".

      If I had to guess at what's happening in this particular experiment, you take an atom, excite it, measure the spin, allow the atom to relax and emit a photon. Now at that point the atom and the photon are entangled. They have net angular momentum which you have previously measured, but you don't know if the photon is spin up or spin down so you don't know what the net spin of the atom is.

      The moment you measure the state of either the photon or the atom, you instantaneously determine the spin of its entangled partner becuase angular momentum conservation trumps the theory of relativity. The wave front collapses and both systems are defined. Previous experiments were done on couple atoms or photons. Now they've entangled both.

      The wave front collapse is instaneous. The travel of the photon, is of course not. But once the photon reaches point B, regardless how far point A (the location of the atom) is, at the same moment you measure the one, the other has a defined spin. That's the wierd world of QM for you.

    98. Re:Please... by fatphil · · Score: 1

      But don't forget that the fax machine is also a shredder.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    99. Re:Please... by pevelius · · Score: 1

      I think most people's concept of "teleport" is something else entirely. What the physicists are doing is something more aking to "faxing". Granted, it's really high-quality faxing, but faxing none the less. But "quantum faxing" doesn't have the same ring to it.

      but faxing is TELEporting, since you do it using TELEphone line as a carrier!?!?

      this is a paradox :(

    100. Re:Please... by CrazyTalk · · Score: 1

      Whats the difference? For the sake of argument, say they could do this with an entire human being, not just an atom or two. If you "killed" the person on one side, and built an exact replica from existing matter at the destination, there would effectively be no difference between that method and physically moving the atoms. When you materialized at the other end, you wouldnt realize that you were newly created since you were an EXACT copy of the original (yes, this defies a hundred different laws of physics, etc. - but you get the idea.)

    101. Re:Please... by holistah · · Score: 1

      dos/windows move works this way, but linux does not unless they are across filesystems. If it is within the same filesystem mv just changes the 'header' information to a new location/new name, leaving the actual data alone.

    102. Re:Please... by somersault · · Score: 1

      Except the original you would be killed, that would be kind of inconvenient..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    103. Re:Please... by somersault · · Score: 1

      I didn't learn anything last tuesday

      --
      which is totally what she said
    104. Re:Please... by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not quite.

      The "you" at site A will enter an undefined quantum state, and then (simultaneously, less the transit-time between the points at the speed of light) the block of mass at site B will become "you".

      IE, the process is:

      An atom of "you" exists at Site A, and an atom of "misc. matter" exists at Site B.
      The atom of you is entangled - it stops being an atom of "you" and becomes an atom in an undefined quantum state.
      The "you-ness" of the atom is sent to Site B at the speed of light, where it subsequently merges with an atom of "misc. matter", transferring its "you-ness" to the atom.

      Therefore, excepting the transit-time (at the speed of light) each change happens instantaneously in one step. No two-step duplication-then-deletion occurs, as Quantum Mechanics forbids a distinct quantum state from ever being duplicated.

      It's mv, not cp.

      --
      Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
    105. Re:Please... by somersault · · Score: 1

      Because I've never looked at the source for the mv command, or ever really wondered exactly how it's working (well not enough to go look it up at least!). Thanks for letting me know :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    106. Re:Please... by l0cust · · Score: 1

      I agree with you to an extent. Surely people will cry foul if you put a block of gold in the two boxes but lets assume that this technique gets refined to the extent where we are able to manipulate individual combinations of elctrons, protons, neutrons and all the rest of sub-atomic particles (or atleast the ones important for any particular test subject). Then would you still cry foul if instead of another block of gold in the second box, there is nothing but air in the second box to begin with and the conjurer was able to 'tell' the ingedients to reassemble to resemble the block of gold in the first box ?

      There is no trasported on the recieving end where captain kirk gets beamed to but there its not like there is 'nothing' there.

      --
      Politicians and Pedophiles: Two groups of exploitive bastards who are most dangerous when they're thinking of children.
    107. Re:Please... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Star Trek, being fiction, obviously has flaws and loopholes. I think the Star Trek way is that they use energy-matter conversion, but the energy could come from anywhere, and it's the information which is transmitted (think of all the "lost in the pattern buffer" episodes).

      I'm just saying - it's always been my impression that the popular usage of "teleport" was to refer to transmitting information, and reassembling matter at the other end in the same shape, even though that could be a different lump of matter, and not about transmitting the same physical pieces of matter.

      Using "teleport" for quantum teleportation seems perfectly reasonable, and that isn't changed just because it doesn't exactly match what Star Trek does.

      If Star Trek doesn't convince you, then think of all the philosophical issues and thought experiments surrounding teleportation: Is the new copy really you? What if the original isn't destroyed (yes, I realise that doesn't apply for quantum teleportation)? Clearly, none of these things would be problems at all if the matter was being physically transported. No one says "If you go through the wormhole, is the person coming out the other end really you?" These issues revolve around the idea of reconstructing a new version.

      Put another way, if you tell somebody you are going to teleport a block of gold from box A to box B and then announce "and to begin, I will place a block of gold in each box", they will cry foul. Are you saying you wouldn't?

      But I wouldn't have to, instead there'd just be a lump of any old random matter, or alternatively the machine needs energy to work which is converted into matter.

      Let's do it your way: if I picked up the gold from box A and put it in box B, would you say that's teleportation? Of course not.

    108. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And to carry this stupid analogy even further, isn't this (the thing in the article) more like:

      ln ./atom1 /reallyfaraway/atom2

      or, to be even closer, you start out with an atom1 and atom2, then write some program that simultaneously makes any changes you make to atom1 also apply to atom2.

    109. Re:Please... by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Which reminds me of a pretty 2 book SciFi series by Niven and Pournelle that begins with "The Mote in God's Eye" and ends with "The Gripping Hand". (Wikipedia) (Amazon)

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    110. Re:Please... by bdonalds · · Score: 1

      True! Say you have bought a Ford Mustang in 1965. Over time you have had to replace parts of the car as they wore out. Over the course of 4 decades you have ended up replacing EVERY part of the car. Do you still have that 1965 Mustang that you bought?

      --
      The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with somebody else's life. -FZ
    111. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errrr....
      Slight correction for any filesystem that uses logging. The meta-data operation will be logged into the log and then executed. So if there's a power outage the fileystem will be in a consistent state where the file might will be either at the source or the target.

    112. Re:Please... by Zenaku · · Score: 1
      Star Trek has a tendency to contradict itself in terms of "how things work" and it is usually just technobabble anyway, but despite all the "pattern buffer" stuff, I believe the official explanation on the transporter is that the transported matter is physically broken apart into atoms or subatomic particles, and the particles physically moved to the destination through "subspace." So they physically travel to the destination, but along a path that is outside of normal spacetime.

      This of course, is Star Trek, and has precisely zero to do with real physics.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    113. Re:Please... by Salsaman · · Score: 1

      That is true only if source and target are on the same physical volume. Otherwise the data will need to be copied then removed as per the original post.

    114. Re:Please... by drafalski · · Score: 1

      I've met people that do think faxing moves the paper from one location to another. When I worked at a small business store in highschool a woman came in wanting to fax money to her son. She wasn't the only one.

    115. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know nothing about physics of course, but all this raises a question. If you cannot measure those properties... how do you know you've succeeded?

    116. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Ok, all you TechnGandalfs, just be careful when playing with:

      # teleport -fR *.*

      or you'll really f*ck things up!

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    117. Re:Please... by hador_nyc · · Score: 1
      - Hello, I'm a PC -...and I'm a Mac. Hey, what'cha got there? - Games. - Cool, can I play too? - No.
      Love the Sig!!!
      --
      - Mike
      Once you've lost your temper, you've lost the argument - Me
    118. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > Again yes. The speed you "teleport" is restricted by the speed of light though.
      > So it'll still take a couple of minutes to get to Mars.

      "Enterprise, what we got back didn't live long...fortunately."

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    119. Re:Please... by robyannetta · · Score: 1
      will a physicist explain what this means?

      You never watched Star Trek, have you?

      --
      - Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
    120. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Might I suggest Larry Niven's "The Mote in God's Eye", where he'll introduce you to a species that would pwn the Borg?

      In fact, they'd pwn anything this side of the Organians and Q. Imagine a species where billions have all the Mary Sue power of Reed Richards and Batman rolled into one. For example, they just barely couldn't whip together a heart-lung machine out of junk in time to save the brain in a newly-severed head.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    121. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > When Captain Kirk gets beamed down to the surface of a planet, where
      > does all that matter come from which constitutes his body in the new location?

      The actual atoms are beamed down and re-assembled. I think there's been some technobabble recently upgrading personal transporters to work at the quantum level rather than the atomic particle level, whereas the massive teleportors for the cargo holds still operate on the atomic level. But the principle is the same, unlike this new phenomenon.

      I would not be comfortable with this type of teleportation -- it's possible I would simply die, and cease to exist, and the "teleported me" would be a newly-created copy. Oh, it would swear it was the real me, and that it just used to exist right over there, but there's no way to tell the difference from his point of view or a 3rd person's. But I might know, or never know, as the case may be.

      I've seen several Sci-Fi universes ("Giants", "Collapsium") which have teleporters that are even more vicious -- they just disassemble the thing at the atomic level to learn its structure, beam the info, and reassemble, brute-force, out of local atoms. Those universes I'd definitely suggest you were killed and a copy created.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    122. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > This of course, is Star Trek, and has precisely zero to do with real physics.

      Much like how Kirk's love life has precisely zero to do with the average Slashdotter's real love life.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    123. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      "Sure, ma'am. Just give me...ah, $1000, yes, I'll fax it right over to him. Be aware, though, that if there is a power failure or transmission failure, the money will be gone for good."

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    124. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      A cell is like a juggler who has 30 billion balls up in the air -- cut off oxygen or glucose or whatnot, and the balls start falling. Once they've all fallen, it's a bitch (the scientific term for "horribly complicated process") to get them all back up in the air again, especially if by that time the juggler's arms have fallen off.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    125. Re:Please... by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      I have a reasonable understanding of physics (for somebody who hasn't studied it)
      What, you just worked everything out for yourself from basic observations and first mathematical principles?
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    126. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe its not sciffy teleportation, but its still VERY cool.

      Imagine being able to 'fax' three dimensional solid objects.

      You have lots of atoms on both sides of the teleporter to start off with, and you rearrange the states of the atoms on the receiving end to match those on the sending end, which are in the process, unarranged.

      It could revolutionise pizza delivery.

    127. Re:Please... by WhiteWolf666 · · Score: 1

      I would not be comfortable with this type of teleportation -- it's possible I would simply die, and cease to exist, and the "teleported me" would be a newly-created copy. Oh, it would swear it was the real me, and that it just used to exist right over there, but there's no way to tell the difference from his point of view or a 3rd person's. But I might know, or never know, as the case may be.

      This is a concern of mine, as well.

      At the same time, however, how can you know that this process does not occur when you go to sleep? That the "I", the "ego", is merely the current incarantion of "you" in the RAM of your biological hardware, to be replaced at the next boot (sleep) cycle, by a copy from longer-term storage. People tend to be incoherent at the borders of sleep (before and after), and dreams DO significantly affect your outlook/thought process.....

      Think of "you" as the current boot of your OS. There exists a) the active, in-RAM (brainwaves) copy, b) the non-volatile copy, on-disk (brain chemical storage), and c) the hardware framework (neurons).

      Unfortunately, none of this can be prooved any which way ;-) Perhaps, however, the Zen types are correct, and the "I" copy is merely a lie; it doesn't really exist, and all that is important is that non-volatile information remain intact. In that viewpoint, as long as you copy everything identically, and do not allow the patterns to "diverge", you would remain you. This idea has some merit, in that we, as beings, have a great deal of continuity between periods of unconsciousness, voluntary or otherwise.

      Tricky stuff to figure out, and nothing we'll really be able to resolve, ever.

      --
      WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
    128. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda makes it hard to find volunteers, don't it?

    129. Re:Please... by GiMP · · Score: 1

      Some implementations of 'mv' (gnu mv) will function the same as a cp/rm, If and only if moving a file between different filesystems. Some variants of 'mv' will not function between filesystems at all. When moving a file within the same filesystem, mv operates as you described.

    130. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      So, this will pose no danger to Dick Cheney, then?

    131. Re:Please... by monkeythug · · Score: 1

      Actually it really is "Teleportation". AIUI at the quantum level there is conceptually no difference between two particles if they have the same properties. If you could transfer all the properties from one atom to another (still beyond the state of the art at present) the resulting atom would be indistinguishable from the original.

      Unlike in the "classical" world, where "indistinguishable" means "it looks the same, but it might still be different underneath", in the quantum realm there is no "underneath", so if it looks the same (has the same properties) it *is* the same.

      --
      Don't you wish you hadn't wasted 3 seconds of your life reading this sig?
    132. Re:Please... by rpresser · · Score: 1

      The hell it does. Windows (up to and including Windows Server 2003) ships with NO commandline "sleep" command, nor anything equivalent.

    133. Re:Please... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      Just tried it again on Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1 and it worked fine. sleep followed by a non-negative integer does just what you'd expect. sleep 0 works right (as a NOP).

      You need to upgrade your Windows!

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    134. Re:Please... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > At the same time, however, how can you know that this process does not
      > occur when you go to sleep? That the "I", the "ego", is merely the current
      > incarantion of "you" in the RAM of your biological hardware, to be replaced
      > at the next boot (sleep) cycle, by a copy from longer-term storage.

      My own favorite image is that the conscious mind is like the flame on a candle. Go to sleep, the flame goes out. Light it up, it starts burning again. Wake up, the consciousness instantiates, running on all this unconscious "hardware", with data loaded out of the long term storage.

      So in that sense, you do die when you go unconscious, never to wake again.

      The only monkey wrench in this is that my memories of five minutes ago, of that contiguous "me", are "in the same manner" as my memories of what I did yesterday, the "other me" that died when I fell asleep last night.

      So either the concept is wrong, or the "continuous now 'you'" is itself a chimera, and you "die" and are reborn every fraction of a second. But that also seems wrong.

      > People tend to be incoherent at the borders of sleep (before and after), and dreams
      > DO significantly affect your outlook/thought process.....

      Dreams could be fully conscious experiences that are not (directly) remembered most of the time. I think it's your brain practicing recalling and analyzing significant situations and worries for the purpose of planning and remembering. That it doesn't apply logic, but rather is just associational, relates to the nature of the way the brain primarily operates. So, lit-candle-wise, it's yet another "copy of you" that exists for some time before being snuffed out again as part of the 90 minute sleep cycle.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    135. Re:Please... by fnord_uk · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. I wonder if there is a serialisation delay, as the information regarding each atom is transmitted sequentially, or is all the information conveyed concurrently? If the former, it might be a problem if your head slowly turned into a bowl of petunias stuck on a dying body at the source end, whilst the system slowly materialises a dead body out of grey goop at the destination.

      --
      In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.
    136. Re:Please... by ComaVN · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's exactly what both dos and windows do.

      --
      Be wary of any facts that confirm your opinion.
    137. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not unless it still has the same VIN.

    138. Re:Please... by nuzak · · Score: 1

      You put a tourniquet around his neck, doctor?

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    139. Re:Please... by nuzak · · Score: 1

      I believe that's called a "lens". You focus the sun's rays on a receiving station. Would have to be a pretty damn big lens, but I imagine the moon would have enough raw material.

      As for the receiving station ... Allow me to be the first of many to say "Not in my backyard."

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    140. Re:Please... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "I'm afraid it's been covered quite heavily in sci-fi, so you're idea's not totally original"

      Ideas never are. I always concentrated my reading on Fantasy rather than Sci-Fi so I guess I missed the beamed solar power thing.

      "The main problem has always been getting power from there to here, since standard methods of transmission would result in so high a loss of energy as to make the idea impractical."

      Hopefully this new method would resolve the problem since it does not require beaming. My limited understanding of the technology that would be involved is that loss in this scenerio would only be the power required to convert heat/radiation/light to electricity (including inefficiency) and to power the entanglement process. Since no matter actually moves and the quantum state is duplicated instantly there would be no actual loss in transmission.

    141. Re:Please... by theJML · · Score: 1

      There's actually a book on this topic that I read quite a while ago (as my announced geekness++) called "the Metaphysics of StarTrek". of course the book isn't only on this it goes into other areas as well, but there is atleast one whole chapter on this question. If I remember correctly, the book basically states that our life is comprised of a number of states. That our state changes continuously... Think of your life's major states, birth, puberty, maturity, death. Each state is like the previous other than a number of changes, then realize that the number of states approaches infinity as details of previous states get more detailed (I just lost a skin cell... so there's the state of me before that and the state after that). Being that we get physically transported and reassembled, this new reassembled state is you. It's just as much you as the state of you was you before you lost that skin cell.

      Atleast that's as much of the book as I can remember at this moment. It's an interesting read if you're into those sorts of questions, and I recommend it, but it's not really something you can read to your kids.

      --
      -=JML=-
    142. Re:Please... by mattcoz · · Score: 0

      Is your consciousness part of that physical pattern though? If I teleported myself, would my consciousness teleport with my pattern? Or would I cease to be and a new consciousness with all my memories take over the assembled body at the other end? Then of course there is the religious question of your soul, but I'm not touching that.

    143. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In his short article on the theory and practice of teleportation, SF writer Larry Niven said (more or less): "What about my soul? Now, I don't know that I HAVE a soul, but if it isn't going with me, I'm not going to get into one of those darn things."

    144. Re:Please... by TheNetDevil · · Score: 1

      Windows does the same thing as Linux. Moving within the same filesystem only moves the directory entry.

    145. Re:Please... by Spikeles · · Score: 1
      If you could transfer all the properties from one atom to another (still beyond the state of the art at present) the resulting atom would be indistinguishable from the original.
      You can't say that definitivly, not all the variables and rules of quantum physics have been accounted for yet, especially if you start including Chaos Theory and Quantum Chaos Theory.

      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    146. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hear, hear

      My thoughts exactly.

      In essense, no person here is the same person he was a second ago.

      I would give you modpoints if I had any.

    147. Re:Please... by zCyl · · Score: 1

      The premise of entanglement is more like:

      ln -s source target

      where there is really only one quantum state accessible in two locations. And then when you first open one of the filenames, they are both automatically filled with the same content, and are then immediately unlinked into two separate but identical files.

    148. Re:Please... by Liam+Slider · · Score: 1
      Is your consciousness part of that physical pattern though?
      We may not know everything about the brain yet...but we know enough to know that it's physical structure and the physical processes going on in it are what makes up your consciousness. So yes, your consciousness is part of the physical pattern.
    149. Re:Please... by monkeythug · · Score: 1

      Agreed - you can't say *anything* definitively in science - it's all a work in progress ;-) Maybe I should have added "according to current consensus" or something like that!

      --
      Don't you wish you hadn't wasted 3 seconds of your life reading this sig?
    150. Re:Please... by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      SLEEP is a Windows Resource Kit utility... freely dowloadable for all Microsoft OS since NT4, but it is not installed by default.

    151. Re:Please... by rpresser · · Score: 1

      As the other poster mentioned. SLEEP is a resource kit utility. *No* version of Windows ships including the resource kit utilities.

      If you still claim your OS shipped with sleep -- or if you claim it came with SP1 -- please provide the file size and date of the EXE file *and* the name of the CAB it was part of on the installation or service pack media.

      Or STFU.

  2. Keep the flies away from it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either that, or make the computer smarter.

  3. Very funny Scotty, by vasanth · · Score: 5, Funny

    now beam down my clothes!!!!!!!

    1. Re:Very funny Scotty, by thewils · · Score: 1

      I like this result best of all.

      --
      Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    2. Re:Very funny Scotty, by joemawlma · · Score: 1

      "Why didn't somebody tell me my ass was so big?!?!" ~President Skroob

    3. Re:Very funny Scotty, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clothes?! Forget the clothes, teleport some Wonka Scrumptiolicius bars!! (Then you will have a reason to go with that big ass).

  4. Anyone have the youtube link? by mr_stinky_britches · · Score: 3, Funny

    Anyone have a link to this teleportation video?

    --
    Censorship is obscene. Patriotism is bigotry. Faith is a vice. Slashdot 2.0 sucks.
    1. Re:Anyone have the youtube link? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope, but this is their site.

      http://www.nbi.ku.dk/side39251.htm

      --
      Deleted
  5. SciAm article by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is Scientific American's article on the matter.

    First Teleportation Between Light and Matter

    1. Re:SciAm article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean "Here is Scientific American's article on the matter and matter."?

    2. Re:SciAm article by Chemisor · · Score: 3, Insightful
      According to the SciAm article, all they did was measure the quantum state of a cesium atom cloud without disturbing the cloud.

      Neither measurement disturbed the delicate entangled state between the light and cesium. But the researchers could use the results to apply a precise magnetic field to the cesium vapor that effectively canceled out the ensemble's original spin state and replaced it with one that corresponded to the polarization of the weak pulse


      I don't know why people keep calling it "teleportation" or any other quantum crap. A very simple way of describing what happened is that they figured out a way to beat the uncertainty principle by creating multiple copies of the same information and measuring amplitude and phase of different copies. Because both copies are identical, any information obtained about one copy is valid about the others, so a complete set of parameters can be determined. It should be pointed out that this experiment clearly demonstrates that the uncertainty principle is not some fundamental property of the universe, but rather an artifact of our measurement instruments. This is the very point that Einstein tried so hard to prove back in 1927, and the one so throughly disputed by the evil Niels Bohr. Unfortunately, Bohr won the argument for some reason, perhaps just out of stubbornness, and the present unsightly state of the science of physics resulted. Perhaps now the quantum heretics can be brought back to the one true faith of objective reality!

    3. Re:SciAm article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah, this is (quantum) crazy: Initially, I wanted to write:

      Don't you mean "Here is Scientific American's article on the matter and light."?

      But instead, I wrote:

      Don't you mean "Here is Scientific American's article on the matter and matter."?

      And it still was a good joke! :) Alright, I am going to go check my brain.

    4. Re:SciAm article by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is the very point that Einstein tried so hard to prove back in 1927, and the one so throughly disputed by the evil Niels Bohr. Unfortunately, Bohr won the argument for some reason, perhaps just out of stubbornness, and the present unsightly state of the science of physics resulted. Perhaps now the quantum heretics can be brought back to the one true faith of objective reality!

      Einstein is always right, Niels Bohr is evil (?!) and your talking about one true faith of objective reality?

      Are you ON something? Your Special K ain't the breakfast cereal?

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    5. Re:SciAm article by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      The Boring World of Neils Bohr!

    6. Re:SciAm article by fishicist · · Score: 1

      I couldn't let this one pass. At no point do they create a copy of the original state. If you could do this, you could create yet another copy until you had as many as was necessary to measure whatever property you liked as accurately as you liked (even `conjugate' ones like the famous position and momentum or spin along different directions). Unfortunately, the best you can do is measure one of the atoms (or whatever) in the entangled pair and apply an operation to the other to make it exactly like the first. The clever bit is that these entagled pairs could, in principle, be moved around classically, stored, and then used as a resource to do some teleporting later. i.e. You can't beam Kirk down to the surface unless you've already been there in the shuttle and left a machine full of some entangled stuff, the other half of which is still on the Enterprise. Please don't just dismiss this. Cleverer people than you or me have been fighting with this for years. The uncertainty principle may be incorrect, but this experiment certainly does not suggest it.

    7. Re:SciAm article by argosian · · Score: 1
      It should be pointed out that this experiment clearly demonstrates that the uncertainty principle is not some fundamental property of the universe, but rather an artifact of our measurement instruments. This is the very point that Einstein tried so hard to prove back in 1927, and the one so throughly disputed by the evil Niels Bohr. Unfortunately, Bohr won the argument for some reason, perhaps just out of stubbornness, and the present unsightly state of the science of physics resulted.
      Um...no. Uncertainty has been experimentally verified repeatedly. There are still some questions, but this particular experiment does NOT conclusively disprove anything about QM.

      If you would like to educate yourself a little on the topic, see this wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox. I would also highly recommend "Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene, particularly Ch 4, which contains an in-depth discussion of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen argument and it's refutation by QM, and ultimately by experimental observations.

      Your statement about the "present unsightly state of the science of physics" is laughable, at best. Just because the properties and interactions of particles in the quantum realm are often counter-intuitive and alien to our everyday experience does not mean that QM is wrong. It doesn't mean that QM is 100% correct either, but the predictions are more accurate and useful than an EPR-based model of the quantum realm. Besides, where in the cosmic law books is it written that the functioning of the universe has to be "sightly" or even comprehensible to us?
    8. Re:SciAm article by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > Um...no. Uncertainty has been experimentally verified repeatedly.

      You can't verify uncertainty. That is, there is no experiment that can prove that you can't ever know something.

      > If you would like to educate yourself a little on the topic, see this wikipedia entry on EPR paradox.

      The EPR paradox, or more specifically, the Aspect experiment, which verified that QM correctly predicted the result of the Bell inequality, does not mean what you think it means. The way I see it, the Aspect experiment simply demonstrates that photons are waves, not particles. Bell inequality assumes that photons are particles (or at least, discrete quanta of energy), and therefore fails to arrive at the correct result via classical calculations. Because photons are waves, or, more accurately, there is no such thing as a photon, they can be smeared over any possible number of locales. When path selection is performed in the Aspect experiment, the photon does not actually take only one path. It takes all the available paths. When you block one of the paths (they used some sort of ultrasonic switch to disrupt the signal), less of the wave arrives at the detector. Because the energy is absorbed only as quanta (due to there being a discrete number of wave nodes around an atom), the detector fails to detect this half-a-wave.

      Not that the photoelectric effect, the very thing that started this whole quantum nonsense, can just as easily, and far more sanely be explained by quantized absorption. It isn't the photons that are quantized, only the slots where they must enter. Einstein went into the opposite direction and destroyed physics.

      > Your statement about the "present unsightly state of the science of physics" is laughable
      > at best. Just because the properties and interactions of particles in the quantum realm
      > are often counter-intuitive and alien to our everyday experience does not mean that QM is wrong.

      QM states that the laws of physics do not hold at atomic scales. In my world that makes it wrong.

      Practically, QM has been the biggest problem physics has. It is QM's fault that there still isn't a way to accurately calculate any parameters of multi-atom systems. Molecular simulations only work on approximations. All the grand unified theories fail to unify the forces of nature because they try to find a quantized solution, where the real world is continuous (yes, atomic energy levels are quantized, but that is so because they are standing waves which can only be stable at discrete frequencies)

      > It doesn't mean that QM is 100% correct either, but the predictions are more
      > accurate and useful than an EPR-based model of the quantum realm.

      Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because QM sometimes gives correct results (and there is much massaging required to get them), doesn't mean it describes the way reality is. Niels Bohr's view was that reality is irrelevant and that we should only be concerned with what works. That is precisely the view that I find utterly revolting, for denial of reality is the denial of life itself.

      > Besides, where in the cosmic law books is it written that the functioning of
      > the universe has to be "sightly" or even comprehensible to us?

      Because a contradiction can not exist, anything that exists must be logical; logic being the art of non-contradictory identification. If the universe is logical, it is necessarily comprehensible because logic is how we comprehend. If the universe is not logical, it does not exist. If the universe does not exists, then you don't exist either, so you might as well abandon any attempt at living.

    9. Re:SciAm article by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > At no point do they create a copy of the original state.

      What do you think a laser does? When Niels Bohr was first told about the laser, he proclaimed that it couldn't work, because lased atoms and photons have the same exact quantum state. When a working laser was shown to him, he stopped talking.

      If you read the article, you'll discover that the experimenters created a cloud of cesium atoms all in the same quantum state (other than position, presumably). Then they shone a laser beam through the cloud, which entangled the photons to the atoms (that is, the photons assumed a state that is a function of the atoms' state), putting the photons in the same quantum state also. Then the beam was split and measured.

      > If you could do this, you could create yet another copy until you had as
      > many as was necessary to measure whatever property you liked as accurately as you liked

      Evidently you can, as the experiment demonstrates. This was my point.

      > Unfortunately, the best you can do is measure one of the atoms (or whatever) in
      > the entangled pair and apply an operation to the other to make it exactly like the first.

      How is this not copying?

      > Please don't just dismiss this. Cleverer people than you or me have been fighting with this for years.

      And rightly so. You ought to start wondering why nobody is listening. If people were willing to consider alternatives to quantum mechanics, we might have had a GUT by now. As things are now, nobody is even trying, except crackpots like Randall Mills.

    10. Re:SciAm article by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > Einstein is always right,

      I said he was proven right in this case. He was wrong about some things, like the photoelectric effect, where he quantized the wrong side.

      > Niels Bohr is evil (?!)

      I am making a value judgement based on information available to me about the events leading to the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. Because I view the latter as the greatest poison of modern physics due to its denial of objective reality (see nonlocality, "spooky actions at a distance", sporadic infinities that appear in equations if they are not used in some unexplained manner, etc.) and the cause of our continuing inability to calculate things on the atomic level, like molecular orbital energies. To hinder knowledge is to hinder progress of life, which is what passes for evil in my book. Since Niels Bohr was the chief perpetrator of that particular line of thought, I rightly classify him as evil.

      > and your talking about one true faith of objective reality?

      Existence exists! That is the essential faith of the existential philosophy. As far as I'm concerned, if you do not believe that existence exists, and the corollary of it being a logical existence, then you are denying life.

    11. Re:SciAm article by fishicist · · Score: 1

      Sorry I wasn't clear. Creating an exact copy of an unknown quantum state isn't possible; I believe the No-cloning-theorem - which, granted, is only a mathematical thing and is only true if quantum mechanics is - was referenced earlier. _If_ you know the state, you can make as many copies as you like. I did it this morning, in my lab.

      >> Unfortunately, the best you can do is measure one of the atoms (or whatever) in
      >> the entangled pair and apply an operation to the other to make it exactly like the first.

      >How is this not copying?

      You destroy the state of the source in the process. This is akin to "mv source target", or at least "cp source target" then "rm source" as pointed out earlier in the thread.

    12. Re:SciAm article by fishicist · · Score: 1

      Now I've had my coffee, let me add to my last comment...

      You can't make a perfect copy of an individual quantum (i.e. one photon). If you have an lot of quanta (i.e. loads of identical photons coming out of a laser) you can make copies, because you can measure lots of quanta and take the average to work out (to an accuracy limited only by the number of quanta you have) all the parameters you need to set up your equipment to make copies. This is all because you destroy (or at the very least disturb) each quanta when you measure it.

      In the case of a photon, you'd probably (in principle) use a polarisation-sensitive beam-splitter and two detectors, one on each output from the beam-splitter. The photon's polarisation isn't just disturbed - the photon is absorbed and hence destroyed when it hits the detector and is measured. If (as would be the general case) it was in some superposition of both states, we'd still only measure either one state or the other, with the appropriate probability; you'd need lots of states to work out what this probability was.

      In a laser, the photons it emits are all identical (in principle), but their polarisation is set by the geometry of the device or by spontaneous emission of photons from within the gain medium of the laser. Unfortunately, it's not enough to set the laser up, send in one arbitrarily polarised photon, and expect many copies of it to be emitted.

      This isn't just a technical problem. A device which amplifies some signal from an individual quantum necessarily introduces noise, as do all amplifiers. This most you can get out of this device at the end is a classical probability, rather than the coefficients of a quantum superposition (complete with phase as well as amplitude).

      Such a quantum amplifier would be needed if we were to actually make a macroscopic superposition, such as Schrodinger's famous cat in a box. The result of a radioactive isotope decaying or not, with 50% probability, would have to be amplified so that the result could be used to decide whether or not to break the beaker full of poison gas to kill the cat. Through the process of amplification, the quantum superposition is changed to a plain old classical probability, and the cat is either dead OR alive before we open the box - no observer required! (This tending towards a classical probability from a quantum one has a sound mathematical backing in the ugly but effective density matrix treatment.)

      And, although it's well outside my area, I believe lots of people are trying things different to quantum mechanics. Just... String theory and others haven't (as far as I know!) come up with anything actually testable (or believable) yet. Quantum mechanics certainly isn't satisfactory (in that it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of understanding how things _really_ work, and it just can't work in strong gravitational fields when we start having to use General Relativity) - it just works so damn well (in that it predicts the outcome of experiments, behaviour of devices, and (so far) _everything_ we've been able to test).

    13. Re:SciAm article by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > You can't make a perfect copy of an individual quantum (i.e. one photon). If you
      > have an lot of quanta (i.e. loads of identical photons coming out of a laser)

      Those photons would be perfect copies of one another, wouldn't they? Ok, so the laser can't produce identical polarization, but it certainly can produce identical phase and amplitude; that's what a laser beam is all about. Splitting a beam does not disturb those parameters and they can be separately measured, as was done in the experiment. A measurement of the left beam would produce the same result as the measurement of the right beam, so you can measure in one and know in the other. Phase and amplitude of a wave may be considered its equivalents of position and momentum, so doing this disproves the uncertainty principle by example.

      > In the case of a photon, you'd probably (in principle) use a polarisation-sensitive
      > beam-splitter and two detectors, one on each output from the beam-splitter. The photon's
      > polarisation isn't just disturbed - the photon is absorbed and hence destroyed when it
      > hits the detector
      and is measured.

      When it hits the detector, not when it passes through the splitter. If all the photons in the beam have the same parameters (like phase and amplitude), each beam coming out of the splitter will still have those same parameters. That's making a copy. Yes, each photon is destroyed at the detector, but you will have more photons in the other arm with the same parameters that you will now know without having measured them.

      > If (as would be the general case) it was in some superposition of both states,
      > we'd still only measure either one state or the other, with the appropriate
      > probability; you'd need lots of states to work out what this probability was.

      That's typical QM thinking. I would categorically deny that anything can be in "superposition"; in the real universe that's called a contradiction. A thing can't be both white and black at the same time. The reason QM gives you such contradiction is that it works with probabilities and interprets them incorrectly. A probability is not a state of the universe, it is a measurement of your knowledge. When a photon is in superposition of two states, it really means that you do not know which state it is in. You might say that it is 60% probable it is in state A and 40% probable that it is in state B, which means that you think A is somewhat more likely result than B. It does not mean that the universe does not know the state. To believe otherwise is called the mind projection fallacy. See this book (review) for more information; I highly recommend it to anyone working with probability.

      > This isn't just a technical problem. A device which amplifies some signal from
      > an individual quantum necessarily introduces noise, as do all amplifiers.

      This is a technical problem. There is no theoretical reason (aside from the uncertainty principle, which I reject) that an amplifier must introduce noise. Just because you have not yet found a way to build a perfectly clean amplifier does not mean that it can not exist. This is the same sort of thinking that leads to "intelligent design" arguments.

      > Through the process of amplification, the quantum superposition is changed to a plain
      > old classical probability, and the cat is either dead OR alive before we open the box
      > - no observer required! (This tending towards a classical probability from a quantum
      > one has a sound mathematical backing in the ugly but effective density matrix treatment.)

      And that is yet another reason to get rid of QM: it has a tendency to do the math and ignore what the math really means. When you do that you may get a valid result, but you will never know why you got it because you do not know what you did. Another Niels Bohr legacy of considering reality as being of no importance. Be

    14. Re:SciAm article by fishicist · · Score: 1

      Hi again,

      First off let me qualify this response by saying I'm answering in the context of quantum mechanics. As we both agree, this certainly isn't a complete theory of how the universe works. However, there appear to be a few misconceptions which I hope to help clear up so that they don't cloud the real issue of the inadequacies of QM...

      >> You can't make a perfect copy of an individual quantum (i.e. one photon). If you
      >> have an lot of quanta (i.e. loads of identical photons coming out of a laser)

      >Those photons would be perfect copies of one another, wouldn't they? Ok, so the laser can't produce identical polarization, but it certainly can produce >identical phase and amplitude; that's what a laser beam is all about. Splitting a beam does not disturb those parameters and they can be separately >measured, as was done in the experiment. A measurement of the left beam would produce the same result as the measurement of the right beam, so you can >measure in one and know in the other. Phase and amplitude of a wave may be considered its equivalents of position and momentum, so doing this disproves the >uncertainty principle by example.

      When talking about quantum mechanics involving photons, we usually consider their polarisation. This is because it is a variable which has only two components; it can be represented in a two-state basis[1]. When we make a measurement, we measure along one of these components. In the case of the beamsplitter I mentioned previously, we `split' the photon by sending the vertical component one way, and the horizonal component the other.

      It isn't so neat for amplitude and phase. Firstly, they are not conjugate variables (like position and momentum), so measurement of one does not imply the other is disturbed. But let me come back to this...

      Light polarised, say, linearly along a 45 degree axis to the vertical would have one component reflected and the other transmitted by the beamsplitter. This does suggest the amplitude of both outputs is equal (and so would the phase). If we use a mirror to shine these two outputs on to a screen, we will see interference. This result is consistent with waves, classical electromagnetism, common sense... there's no mention of quanta.

      Unfortunately this does not correspond to duplicating the photon. Consider the photoelectric effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect This is a good rugged experimental demonstration that light interacts in the discret lumps we call photons; the implication[2] is that it also only exists in these lumps. So, if we send in just one photon in to our beam splitter, which output does it come out of? It can't come out of both, but we see interference when we recombine them (and we don't if we block one of the paths).

      What I've very awkwardly described is Young's Double Slit experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experimen t You probably know of this, and it's no mystery with waves; but it works with individual quanta too. (i.e. only one quantum in the aparatus at any one time, but interference is still seen!) So... which slit does the quanta go through?

      If you're able to resolve the double slit experiment and the photoelectric effect without invoking superpositions, I'd be very interested to hear.[3]

      [1] A basis is a set of states which we use to represent the value of some variable. For polarisation, there are several including: linear vertical & linear horizontal (i.e. the electric field of the light points up and down or left and right) and left circular & right circular (i.e. the electric field traces out a helix with one of the two possible helicities). These states are orthogonal in the same way as the x- and y- axes on a grid are; no amount of x can change the position in y.

      [2] Maybe this is the stumbling block, but I'm sur

  6. Ramifications by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apparently these scientists have never watched TRON, or they'd quit why they're ahead. Or, perhaps they know the risks and have brushed up on their 80's era arcade gaming skills.

    Dan East

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Ramifications by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      Anybody who's a researcher today was a teenager in the 80ies... ;)

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    2. Re:Ramifications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      brushed up on their 80's era arcade gaming skills

      Unlikely. Don't you know how hard it is to find a Space Paranoids machine? There's not even a MAME version.

  7. Just the information? by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While I'd be fine transporting the quantum state, ect. for my new super computer laptop, you'd never get me into one of those things. I'd rather keep (the vast majority at any one time) of my atoms and subatomic particles with me.

    But could you imagine if they could utilize a version of this teleportation to transfer the information to multiple places at once? Wow! That'd be a huge boon to subatomic construction technology!

    --
    Demented But Determined.
    1. Re:Just the information? by grammar+fascist · · Score: 4, Interesting
      But could you imagine if they could utilize a version of this teleportation to transfer the information to multiple places at once? Wow! That'd be a huge boon to subatomic construction technology!

      If they're using quantum teleportation, they can't. It's not possible to clone generic quantum states. Specific ones, yes, but that won't cover everything.

      The article is wonderfully sparse on actual information. A "macroscopic atomic object containing thousands of billions of atoms" was "involved," but what does that mean, exactly? Probably not that it was transformed to light (or light was transformed to it), nor that it was actually teleported.

      My favorite part of quantum teleportation is that, if it ever is used to teleport objects, it'll have to transfer the state from the source atoms into some entangled destination atoms. Then the state will be lost in the source, and you'll be left with a mound of goo. That'd really make people want to try it out.
      --
      I got my Linux laptop at System76.
    2. Re:Just the information? by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There are certain ethical questions that go along with teleportation of humans as well.

      If you create a perfect atomic copy of a living being and then destroy the original, is the copy really the same as the original? What if you just never destroyed the original? Is destroying the original tantamount to murder?

      I think questions like this will mean that even when we have the technology to do this with large objects (even living objects,) it will never be used on humans. The ethical risks, and our inability to determine an answer to the philosophical questions (if the copy has the exact same memories, when you ask it if it is a copy, it will say no) mean that we're going to have to find some method of instant transportation that does not involve deconstructing and reconstructing things on a molecular level.

      Wormholes, anyone? :)

    3. Re:Just the information? by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      In almost all given cases (e.g. Star Trek), the teleporter destroys the "original".

      Why would the teleported object melt into goo rather than simply vanishing in a de-atomized puff?

    4. Re:Just the information? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      If it ever gets to the point whare they can teleport whole atoms rather than just spin states, imagine what that could do to surgery? They wouldn't have to cut you open to put a pacemaker in your chest or an IOL in your eyeball.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    5. Re:Just the information? by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, the above post assumes a physicalist point of view; in other words, consciousness is a purely physical object.. we still haven't tackled the mind/body problem effectively so the jury is still out on that one. That's also the best-case scenario for a teleportation device that works in this manner; if consciousness is something more than physical, then physically reconstructing the body would not be sufficient for teleportation anyway.

    6. Re:Just the information? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      It's not possible to clone generic quantum states.

      Not yet. Thirty years ago the whole idea of teleporting anything, even just spin states, was a preposterous proposition.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    7. Re:Just the information? by kfg · · Score: 1

      Why would the teleported object melt into goo rather than simply vanishing in a de-atomized puff?

      'Cause there's still a hundred and some odd pounds of atoms left hanging around with nothing in particular to do anymore.

      You'll also need an equal quantity on the other side that's just been hanging around waiting to be you.

      Only the information of particle state is actually transfered, pure "youness," not the particles themselves.

      KFG

    8. Re:Just the information? by grammar+fascist · · Score: 1

      Cloning is very different from teleporting.

      It's not just preposterous, it's provably impossible. If someone manages to do it, it'd shake up all of quantum mechanics, which is one of the most well-tested theories there is.

      Not that I'd shed a tear, mind you, because the replacement would be very exciting.

      --
      I got my Linux laptop at System76.
    9. Re:Just the information? by memfrob · · Score: 1
      If you create a perfect atomic copy of a living being and then destroy the original, is the copy really the same as the original? What if you just never destroyed the original? Is destroying the original tantamount to murder?

      Luckily, with this method of teleportation, we'll never have those types of questions. Instantaneously as the "copy" is created, the "original" ceases to exist by phsyical laws; there is no "...and _then_ destroy the original", because the original is gone. For all intents and purposes, the original has moved; it never exists in two places simultaneously.

      I'm sure politicians will never figure this out and will move to have it classified as the highest form of murder until the Transportation Industry gets their piece of the pie, of course

      --
      The Wizard utters the word 'frobnoid!' and cackles gleefully
    10. Re:Just the information? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      if consciousness is something more than physical, then physically reconstructing the body would not be sufficient for teleportation anyway.

      Correction:

      if consciousness is something more than physical, then physically reconstructing the body might not be sufficient for teleportation anyway.

      After all, if you don't know what the non-physical part is, you cannot tell how it would behave in a physical teleportation. After all, it might just attach to the reconstructed body, either immediatly or after some time.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    11. Re:Just the information? by Firehed · · Score: 1
      My favorite part of quantum teleportation is that, if it ever is used to teleport objects, it'll have to transfer the state from the source atoms into some entangled destination atoms. Then the state will be lost in the source, and you'll be left with a mound of goo. That'd really make people want to try it out.

      That's why God invented mice!
      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    12. Re:Just the information? by Jerf · · Score: 1

      More to the point than KFG's answer, Star Trek is not science.

      The real question is why objects would disappear, not why they wouldn't. In the real world, everything has to go somewhere and the idea that you can tear something apart at the molecular level and send it somewhere in a "beam" is absurd.

    13. Re:Just the information? by prod-you · · Score: 1

      Who's to say that original doesn't get the properties of the location it was moved to (like a property trade)

    14. Re:Just the information? by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      If you create a perfect atomic copy of a living being and then destroy the original, is the copy really the same as the original?

      Yes, with absolute certainty because it is a perfect copy. If it wasn't "really the same" then it would NOT be a perfect copy. You question indicates that you need to think about the phrase "perfect copy" or otherwise about the phrase "really the same" (or maybe both) until you grasp their meaning. Hint: it's the same.

      Your question is tantamount to asking: "If we make the item green, will it really be green?". The answer is "yes, by the very premise of the statement".

      The ethical risks, and our inability to determine an answer to the philosophical questions

      There are all kinds of technological risks and biological risks and environmental and economic and what-have-you risks, but there are no "ethical risks" whatsoever. The phrase "philosophical question" simply means "I'm too lazy to think about this terribly hard, so I pretend there's an open question here somewhere".

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    15. Re:Just the information? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1
      If you create a perfect atomic copy of a living being and then destroy the original, is the copy really the same as the original?

      Yes. That's what the word "perfect" means. If you destroy the original, you just killed it.
      What if you just never destroyed the original?

      Property rights would have to be split between the two. It would be like divorce court.

      A person chosing to undergo such a transportation would be agreeing to having a copy of himself made, and transfering all his property rights to that person. He would also be agreeing to suicide.
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    16. Re:Just the information? by stunt_penguin · · Score: 1

      *head asplodes*

      --
      When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
    17. Re:Just the information? by kfg · · Score: 1

      Who's to say that original doesn't get the properties of the location it was moved to (like a property trade)

      Right, you'll need a pile of entangled goo where you want to go. Now start wondering how that goo got there.

      KFG

    18. Re:Just the information? by dch24 · · Score: 1

      Here's an interesting short fiction on the subject.

    19. Re:Just the information? by cptgrudge · · Score: 1

      He would also be agreeing to suicide.

      So no Catholics. Check.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    20. Re:Just the information? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      Thank you. That was an excellent story.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    21. Re:Just the information? by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      the idea that you can tear something apart at the molecular level and send it somewhere in a "beam" is absurd.

      One could have said back in the day: "the idea that you can take the human voice and turn it into electricity and send it over a wire somewhere is absurd."

      If everyone thought like that we wouldn't have telephones.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    22. Re:Just the information? by fossa · · Score: 1

      The concern for me is that while "I" teleported from point A to B, how do I know the guy in point B is "me" and the goo in point A is not me? For all anyone could ever know, I died and was replaced by a perfect replica of myself who has no way of knowing that he isn't me. Of course, this same question applies to each second of the day that ticks by. I feel a continuous "me", but is that really the case? Either way, I would have great fear, rational or not, about stepping into a teleportation device. Faith that an exact spin state by spin state "me" would form at point B would not convince me that the process was any different than creating two spin state by sping state "me"s and then bumping off the "me" at point A.

    23. Re:Just the information? by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      I thought the mice were here to examine the experiment to find the Question.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    24. Re:Just the information? by bar-agent · · Score: 1
      The concern for me is that while "I" teleported from point A to B, how do I know the guy in point B is "me" and the goo in point A is not me?
      Only an issue if you have a soul. Otherwise, it's just as if you were built of Legos -- the plans can be transmitted and reconstituted exactly.

      Even if spin states weren't the entire story, you wouldn't have to be reconstituted identically to be "identical." It's like identity vs. equality in an objects-all-the-way-down programming language. 3 is not identical to 3 because they are different objects, but 3 = 3 because they act exactly the same as far as arithmetic is concerned.
      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    25. Re:Just the information? by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Or, to put it another way, "a difference that makes no difference, is no difference."

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    26. Re:Just the information? by Roduku · · Score: 1
      A person chosing to undergo such a transportation would be agreeing to having a copy of himself made...

      I'm sure the RIAA would have to get in on it
    27. Re:Just the information? by raehl · · Score: 1

      The real question is why objects would disappear, not why they wouldn't. In the real world, everything has to go somewhere and the idea that you can tear something apart at the molecular level and send it somewhere in a "beam" is absurd.

      E=mc2 and all that.

      You can change matter into energy. You can move energy. You can change energy into matter. Granted, we can't do any of those things very well or efficiently, but you could certainly pulverize matter into energy, send the energy somewhere, then make it into matter again, and thus not have any matter left over at the origin.

    28. Re:Just the information? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1
      you'd never get me into one of those things.

      Arthur C Clarke wrote a great short story (I think it was his first) called Travel By Wire. His teleportation system parallels the development of TV and at one point he discusses the effect of interference in the communication channel sometimes they came out the other end looking like nothing on Earth and very little on Venus or Mars.

      It ends with the inventor of the teleport jumping into a rocket to cross the atlantic, declaring that there was no way you would get him to actually use the thing.

    29. Re:Just the information? by albyrne5 · · Score: 1

      It's this sort of attitude that causes wars and poverty and famine and rape. I hope you're happy with your work here today.

    30. Re:Just the information? by albyrne5 · · Score: 1

      Interesting point! Now all you need to do is write a treatment for a screenplay. Set in the future, everyone else is teleporting around willy-nilly apart from the good old catholics, fill in the blanks, 4. profit???

    31. Re:Just the information? by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 1

      It's more complicated than that. I was very careful in my wording of "perfect atomic copy."

      Having two physically identical things does not mean that they are the same thing. In fact, merely identifying them as two identical things explicitly states that they are not the same thing. Having tried, it's actually very hard to come up with a criteria for identity between any two things other than abstract concepts (identity for sets, for example, is easy to prove. The question of "what makes up a human being" has not been satisfactorily answered; we are obviously our physical nature but a lot of people believe there is more to it than that, and coming up with an authoritative list of that "more" is going to cause a lot of argument.)

      Determining a criteria of identity between two potentially identical things is the key. Your criteria of identity may take into account only physical structure, where mine may consider a space-time location as well, in which case two clones standing side-by-side cannot be the same, even if they are 100% physically identical. One can also make the argument that via the semi-random processes in the human body, they cease being physically identical the moment the copy is made. If they then have independent experiences, would they continue being the same?

      "Philosophical question" usually means that people have thought about the issue, written papers about it, several books, and then determined that the problem has no easy answer (and no answer that will probably be considered "right" by any large majority.) 20th century metaphysics has been somewhat obsessed with this problem, so there is quite a volume of material on it.

  8. I really need to get one of these... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I could use it to teleport all the dust bunnies hiding behind computers to a passing Klingon ship.

    1. Re:I really need to get one of these... by Pengunea · · Score: 1

      Whatever you do, try not to beam it on to Khan's ship.

      I have reliable sources that suggest he's vengeful.

      --
      Starkle, starkle, little twink.
    2. Re:I really need to get one of these... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever you do, try not to beam it on to Khan's ship.
      I have reliable sources that suggest he's vengeful.


      Don't you mean "wrathful"?

    3. Re:I really need to get one of these... by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      Khan was also not a Klingon. He was a human created through a eugenics program of selective breeding.

  9. Obligatory by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

    I, for one, welcome our dimension-shifting overlords *ducks*

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:Obligatory by markana · · Score: 1

      Howard, is that you?

      Oh, you did mention "ducks..."

    2. Re:Obligatory by RsG · · Score: 1

      Half-Life seems more probably every day :-)

      Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to brush up on my crowbar skills.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    3. Re:Obligatory by MrSquishy · · Score: 0

      Dimension-shifting ducks!?

      I, for one, welcome the Soviets who will shift them.

  10. Thousands of billions... by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Funny

    thousands of billions of atoms

    Trillions, even?

    1. Re:Thousands of billions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HA!HA! clever

    2. Re:Thousands of billions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, it depends. Are those English billions or mostly-the-rest-of-the-world-billions?

      English-speaking world/Parts of Asia/One or two other places: 1 billion = 1000 millions = 1x10^9
      "Rest of the world": 1 billion = 1 million millions = 1x10^12

      Similarly, trillion will mean:
      a) 1x10^12
      b) 1x10^18

      So, "thousands of billions" is the same as "trillions" in english-speaking countries, but not in the rest of the world. Since we're talking about danish scientists, I'm guessing it's the second option.

    3. Re:Thousands of billions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Funny but you must be American.

      American Billion = 10^9, trillion = 10^12
      European Billion = 10^12, trillion = 10^18

    4. Re:Thousands of billions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You were likely going for humor, but if you were interested, the traditional british meaning of the number is not the same as the US meaning:

      10^6 million (million)
      10^9 billion (thousand million)
      10^12 trillion (billion)
      10^15 quadrillion (thousand billion)
      10^18 quintillion (trillion)
      10^21 sextillion (thousand trillion)
      10^24 septillion (quadrillion)
      10^27 octillion (thousand quadrillion)

      As per http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbill00.htm l

    5. Re:Thousands of billions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No it's a quadrillion.

  11. Obligatory Star Trek quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kirk: Very interesting. You ready, Bones?
    McCoy: No. I signed aboard this ship to practice medicine, not to have my atoms scattered across space by this gadget.

  12. Isn't it just the quantum information that is... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

    ...sent and not the actual atoms (or constituent particles) that are sent by 'entangling' the local object's atoms with particles being sent to the remote location? In other words it is duplication as opposed to actual moving something (other than the information), right? Or am I missing something? Like 'faxing'?

    --
    Loading...
  13. Wow, what's next? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

    Faster than light travel? Time travel? Spaceballs?

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Wow, what's next? by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      Faster than light-article is planned for next week wednesday, friday and sunday.
      Time travel will be for next monday, thursday and saturday.
      Space balls is going to be repeated whole next week.

      Didn't you get the weekly Slashdot Dub-scedule?

  14. Star Trek concept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remind me: In Star Trek, did the teleporters A) transmit matter or B) reconstitute a person or object from transmitted data?

    1. Re:Star Trek concept by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      They were actually inconsistent on that very point. In the beginning, they merely transmitted the data, and then reconstituted on the other side out of some sort of matter pool. Later, they changed it transmitting the actual matter, because some people, I don't recall whether it was fans or some of the creative people involved, were uneasy with the previous practice. Something to do with the soul, and how it would be transmitted. However, after the change they were still internally inconsistent, i.e. the episode with two rikers seems to imply that only the information is transmitted.

  15. this just proves my theory... by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...that nerds will stop at NOTHING to prove Star Trek is real. First, transparent aluminum, now this.

    --
    blah blah blah
    1. Re:this just proves my theory... by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      I was going to say that the nerds proved Jules Verne to be rigth, but I just read he published his 20,000 Leagues under the Sea several years after the first submarines where launched.
      They say, anyways, that Jules Verne's book inspired inventors to build more advanced submarines.

      --
      So say we all
  16. You know... by suv4x4 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'll be glad if theys top calling information transportation via light entaglement "teleportation".

    We all know what we expect from an article talking about teleportation, and it definitely doesn't involve crypted conversation technologies.

    1. Re:You know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like someone who would object listening to a CD-R copy of a CD-audio (I wan't to listen to the real thing!) If you can't design an experiment that can distinguish between the original particle and it's "teleported" counterpart, then how can you be unsatisfied?

  17. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reading a post like this, I suddenly feel that the slashdot moderation system is lacking. We should have a second dimension in moderation, ranging from asshole-post to really-nice-guy-post. Guess where this post goes?

  18. oblig by Digitus1337 · · Score: 1

    How did they handle heisenberg compensation?

    1. Re:oblig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Very well, thank you.

    2. Re:oblig by Pengunea · · Score: 1

      They gave it a really hot fresh cup of tea.

      Wait, wrong method of near-instantaneous transportation.

      --
      Starkle, starkle, little twink.
    3. Re:oblig by zephc · · Score: 2, Funny

      With Heisenberg compensators?

      --
      "I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
    4. Re:oblig by vimh42 · · Score: 1

      You'll just have to wait a few years after Heisenberg is born, then ask.

    5. Re:oblig by geekoid · · Score: 1

      With a heisenberg compensator.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:oblig by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Compensation? It comes out of his grant money of course. After he pays the office fee, lab fee, fee fee, tax, tax fee, and the fee tax.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  19. Scientific... American? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Isn't that, like, an oxymoron or something?

    1. Re:Scientific... American? by WilliamSChips · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, it was created long before Bush was elected.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    2. Re:Scientific... American? by jafac · · Score: 1

      Actually, Scientific American changed hands around 2000, and their overall quality has gone sharply downhill. I ended my subscription after 15 years in 2000. Losing Gardner's column was another serious blow.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    3. Re:Scientific... American? by mknewman · · Score: 1

      So if we make a copy of Bush does that mean he could be re-elected?

  20. Brundlefly??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Geez, haven't you people seen what happens when you try teleporting?

  21. No Thanks, I'll walk by TheWoozle · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think Douglas Adams said it best:

    I teleported home one night
    With Ron and Sid and Meg;
    Ron stole Meggie's heart away
    And I got Sidney's leg.

    --
    Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
    1. Re:No Thanks, I'll walk by Speare · · Score: 1

      Take me apart, take me apart,
      What a way to roam.
      But if you have to take me apart to get me there,
      I'd rather stay at home.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
  22. Ok I will do it by COMON$ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Someone had to ask. How is this technique going to maintain a person? Arent you essentially killing the person and reassembling their likeness in a remote location? How could an outsider tell the difference, the being that is transported would simply cease to exist while a copy lives the rest of their lives.

    --
    CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    1. Re:Ok I will do it by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      err... Can you name a sci-fi implementation of teleportation that doesn't destroy the "original"? There is one that I know of - just can't think of the frelling name.

    2. Re:Ok I will do it by Otter · · Score: 1
      How is this technique going to maintain a person? Arent you essentially killing the person and reassembling their likeness in a remote location?

      As I understand it, this process starts with atoms at both locations and superimposes the quantum state of one onto the other. "Quantum faxing" would probably be a better metaphor than "teleportation".

    3. Re:Ok I will do it by MoogMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In theory, the atoms involved get replicated in a different location. Essentially, yes, the source atom gets destroyed, and the destination atom gets "created". But the destination atom is indistinguishable from the source, so who is to say that they are not the same atom? Technically, the atom does not get destroyed, but it's spin and other state[1] gets set to the state of the original atom.

      One question worth asking, is whether the relative position of the atoms are maintained through "teleportation". I would assume not. So at this stage, even if you did succeed in transporting a human, they would end up as a pool of water and carbon atoms I guess.

      This is more of a philosophical question, I think. Hypothetically speaking, you could see it as killing the person, and re-assembling their likeness. But "their likeness" would know no different, and he/she would feel and act like the real person. Equally, as you say, an outsider would know no different. Would you be willing to kill yourself, knowing that an exact replica of you is about to be re-created.

      It goes further, too. Does the soul exist as something other than the collection of atoms and particles that comprise us? If so, does this get left behind, or somehow carried across?

      [1] This is how I understand it, at least. Maybe someone could clarify, and explain if anything other than spin would get replicated.

    4. Re:Ok I will do it by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Arent you essentially killing the person and reassembling their likeness in a remote location?

      Well if you believe in Quantum Immortality then if the teloporation does kill your concioussness the teleporter will fail to work and if it doesn't then you are teleported along with your concioussness.

      Of course I don't know what happens if you are teleported into a brick wall...

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    5. Re:Ok I will do it by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Stargate?

      How about the Iconians from ST:TNG? Or how about the method that the terrorists used in "The High Ground"?

      Ok, that one was killing them with radiation poisoning. Maybe that's a bad example.

      Anyway, wormholes: good. Molecular deconstruction/reassembly: bad.

    6. Re:Ok I will do it by kfg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How could an outsider tell the difference. . .

      They couldn't, because you are not the atoms "you" are made of. You are a collection of information in the state of the atoms.

      Which is a good thing for you, because most of the atoms you are made of today won't be the same atoms you'll be made of next week. That's why you die if you don't drink some water now and again; and maybe a bit of a nosh.

      KFG

    7. Re:Ok I will do it by Burdell · · Score: 1

      You may be thinking of James Patrick Kelly's "Talk Like a Dinosaur", which was also made into an episode of the new "Outer Limits" (I can't remember if that was the story name or the episode name or both).

      IIRC there is an older story by an older well-known SF author that Kelly's was similar to, but I can't remember the details now.

    8. Re:Ok I will do it by asuffield · · Score: 4, Informative
      Someone had to ask. How is this technique going to maintain a person?


      It isn't. Despite the regular press idiocy on this subject, quantum teleportation has got absolutely nothing to do with Star Trek-style transporters. This is a form of communication link, teleporting information from one place to another at the speed of light. It cannot operate on people, rocks, or any other tangible object. We may someday invent a matter transporter, but it won't be using this technology and it certainly isn't what they're studying. To quote from the opening paragraph in the Wikipedia article, which is the very least any ignorant reporter should read before posting nonsense on the subject:

      Quantum teleportation does not transport energy or matter, nor does it allow communication of information at superluminal speed.

      This is about the next generation of technology that may someday replace optic fibre for long-distance communication links (and may also be useful in the construction of quantum computers, should we ever find a use for them). Nothing to do with Star Trek. If you ever catch a reporter confusing the two again, please hurt them. Badly.
    9. Re:Ok I will do it by Jerf · · Score: 1

      I like old science fiction.

      There was a story about an extremely odd artifact found on the Moon that could only be explored by tele-copying somebody into it. It tended to kill you for doing all sorts of random things; for instance, writing the word "no" squished you instantly, and it was odd in various other ways. The author also postulated that the original, if kept in a sensory deprivation chamber, would briefly maintain contact, and thus the original could report on the experiences of the dead copy. Most people couldn't handle the psychological strain and committed suicide, and the story ends with the copy making it all the way through and wondering what to do with himself.

      Poul Anderson had a crappy story that was going to turn into a series where the only superluminal travel that was possible was to teleport yourself somewhere (because only information could travel faster than light), and a copy was made. Thus, you walk into the transportation device and in a way, you don't know if you're going to walk out transported or not. (It was crappy for other reasons, not this one.) It addressed a couple of the issues dealing with this, but I hope it wasn't turned into a series; never bothered to look it up.

      There is of course the Star Trek: TNG episode where Riker was both beamed off a planet, and not beamed off a planet, resulting in two Rikers. As usual, the Star Trek writers failed to consider any implications of this astonishing possibility.

    10. Re:Ok I will do it by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking of the older story. I can almost see the blasted cover art in my mind, but can't think of the title or author. The story starts with people being "teleported" to the stars. They remain on Earth though. A copy of them is made and sent out to the interstellar colony. The people then go about their life on Earth and, unbenkownst to the "original", as infinite-use slave labor on the interstellar colony.

      Every other reply has missed the point entirely.

      Teleporting with destroying the original is cloning! The original remains, and an exact duplicate steps out of the receiving station.

    11. Re:Ok I will do it by the_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Sam describes the process several times over the course of the series, and I most distinctly remember her description in the 10th season: You're broken down at the sub-atomic level at the event horizon and transmitted as energy to the other end of the wormhole. Then, you're reassembled at the other end, 5 seconds later.

      Only marginally better than ST transporters, IMHO.

      The Rutians, on the other hand, were on to something.

      --
      grey wolf
      LET FORTRAN DIE!
    12. Re:Ok I will do it by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      Thank you. The Poul Anderson book is the one I was thinking of - still can't think of the blasted title though.

      As for the ST:TNG case...
      The original Riker was destroyed when he stepped onto the platform, and when he was beamed up from the planet. That was a case of duplicate creation upon reciept, not non-destruction of the original.

    13. Re:Ok I will do it by Micahs · · Score: 1

      @MyNymWasTaken There is a book called "The Saga of Cuckoo" by Fred Pohl and Jack Williamson that has "teleportation" like you describe. The original was left intact and unchanged, and the duplicate was transfered and reassembled at the destination. Is this the one you were thinking of? Micahs

    14. Re:Ok I will do it by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      How could an outsider tell the difference,

      If the complete amount of quantum information is transferred, then neither an outsider nor an insider would be able to tell the difference because there would BE no difference.

      The concept of "identical particles" in physics does emphatically NOT mean "they kinda look the same". It means "they are not subject to distinction". Exchanging the one for the other will not alter any measureable (observable, testable) aspect of the universe in any way anywhere anywhen anyhow.

      That's what we mean with the word "identical"; it's just that in physics we actually, seriously, honestly mean it while in common English we only "kinda" mean it.

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    15. Re:Ok I will do it by mandos · · Score: 1

      Do you actually have to get rid of the original? Calvin would have a field day! http://aa.1asphost.com/dlazechk/ch900108.jpg

      A better question to ask: what happens to their "soul"? A few years ago the Catholic church decided that human clones have unique souls and are not part of the orinigal person. So now that we have an exact physical copy of a person (well eventually we will), who gets the soul? I can't wait to see the religious debates over this. In fact any religious debate over a new technology that screws with their worldview is usually entertaining.

      --
      Mike Scanlon
    16. Re:Ok I will do it by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      Yes. That was it. I was vacillating between him and Poul Anderson.

      Wall Around a Star, the second book in the Saga of Cuckoo series.

      Thank you.

    17. Re:Ok I will do it by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Does the soul exist as something other than the collection of atoms and particles that comprise us? If so, does this get left behind, or somehow carried across?

      Just a thought...

      But perhaps the soul is not inside the flesh and blood. Perhaps the soul is bound to our body remotely. Think of the body as a remote terminal to the physical realm. Your soul accesses this terminal via some ethereal connection.

      Now what happens when you move this terminal? Well, your soul is still bound to it via association without knowing the difference even though this ethereal connection makes the switch over in the background.

      FYI. Perhaps OBE (Out of Body Experiences) are nothing more than our soul becoming detached from our terminal for a moment of time...

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    18. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Perhaps OBE (Out of Body Experiences) are nothing more than our soul becoming detached from our terminal for a moment of time...

      Interesting, but it raises the just-as-hairy problem of how the memories of the experience outside the body get "brought back" and re-encoded as neural connections in the hippocampus.

      If memories are physical (as we have every reason to believe they are) then how can the "soul" put memories into bodies?

    19. Re:Ok I will do it by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      When you "teleport" matter, you copy everything exactly. As such, being that memories are hard-coded in the brain via neural connections, you will end up with the same neural connections once teleported. It might be possible for the soul to copy memories to the ethereal relm, but not vis-versa (...that I know of...)

      I would imagine being teleported to be virtually instant at the conscious level. One moment you're in room A, next, in B. The sudden change may provide some psychological disorientation in the first few second, but nothing worth mentioning other then that. Worst case scenario of a flawless teleportation is that you get a nasty case of 12 hour "jet-lag".

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    20. Re:Ok I will do it by Burdell · · Score: 1

      The Kelly story (and the other one I'm thinking of) both have humans learning about the universe at large from a more advanced race. The other race controls the teleport stations (in orbit), but they don't let the original leave. After receiving confirmation from the receiving station, the sending station "eliminates" the now-superfluous original (to keep things in balance).

    21. Re:Ok I will do it by CODiNE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Every time someone mentions the soul issue I quote some scriptures on it and get modded bigtime offtopic or flamebait. It's late but here's a few from memory.

      Numbers 6:6 literally states "do not touch a dead soul" ... some bible translations will use the phrase "dead body" or "corpse" to make it clear to our modern ears.

      Genesis 2:7 "the man became a living soul"

      Also Ge. 2:19 explains that as each animal or "living soul" would come to Adam he would name them. Ge. 1:20 the waters swarmed forth full of "living souls".

      Etc, etc...

      Doesn't take too much research to find out that the Hebrew word for "soul" is related to breathing... basically any animal that breathes is a "soul". A living being. Ezekiel 18:4 explains that the "soul" who sins shall die. It means person. You ARE a soul, you don't have one.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    22. Re:Ok I will do it by kyb · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "teleporting information from one place to another at the speed of light"

      So what is it about people, rocks, or other tangible objects that cannot be described as information? You are information much more than you are something tangible - pretty much every atom in you will migrate out of you at some point, and you're almost completely different to what you were 5 years ago. It's the information that is important. Actually, quantum teleportation is a method for replicating matter in a remote place (because the only sensible definition of replication is reproducing every facet of the originals state). The only reason nobody has used it yet to teleport a human is because it currently only works on very simple and small structures over distances too small to be useful.

      The advancement of quantum teleportation is that in the past, we could only enocode and then transfer information that we could measure (I mean you could transfer the information by walking but that's not the point). You can't measure quantum information without ruining it, so until quantum teleportation we could not transfer quantum information from one place to another. Whether or not you even need to transfer the quantum information to transfer a person is an entirely different question. Would it matter if you just made a classical copy of a human? Maybe not - maybe you would get the same person, but I think everyone would be more comfortable with the process if there was absolutely no information lost, no matter how nebulous.

      This almost certainly will not replace optic fibre for long distance communication, because there is very little communication that requires the transmission of quantum information. We generally want to transfer classical information.

    23. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe by "soul" they meant "African-American culture or ethnic pride" (see Oxford dictionary's 3rd definition of the word "soul").

    24. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stanislaw Lem: Summa Technologiae (from 1970)

      That book has several chapters about teleportation ethics issues. It think the book has never been translated into english in its entirety, but is available in german language.

    25. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they are using 'soul' in a religious context and claim to have their teachings based on the Bible, then 'soul' means a living being or life as a living being as indicated by various scriptures in the Bible. Hence SOS (save our souls). Of course, it will all boil down to whether you accept the Bible as truth. John 17:16, Jesus said that God's word is truth and 1 Timothy 3:16 clearly states that the Bible was inspired by God who used various men to pen the Bible as a business man would have his secretary type his letters.

    26. Re:Ok I will do it by hyfe · · Score: 1
      It goes further, too. Does the soul exist as something other than the collection of atoms and particles that comprise us?
      Seeing that you seem to be American and all, I'll let you in on the short answer:

      NO.

      (and no, Santa Claus does not exist either)

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
    27. Re:Ok I will do it by mrjb · · Score: 1

      This is drifting immensely off-topic, but SOS does not mean 'save our souls'. That (as well as 'Save Our Ship') is merely a co-notation added to the morse code later on. The SOS morse code ...---... was invented as emergency signal because it was easy to remember.

      --
      Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
    28. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.S. I am not American. (Nor should it matter).

    29. Re:Ok I will do it by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Sam describes the process several times over the course of the series, and I most distinctly remember her description in the 10th season: You're broken down at the sub-atomic level at the event horizon and transmitted as energy to the other end of the wormhole. Then, you're reassembled at the other end, 5 seconds later.

      Ok, maybe I missed that episode. I havn't been watching it much lately.

    30. Re:Ok I will do it by nu1x · · Score: 1

      "Goblin Reservation", by Clifford Simak.

      And amazingly good book.

      --
      I have nothing to lose but my bindings.
    31. Re:Ok I will do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think of it this way. Your brain has some cache memory (short term memory) and also stores the file allocation table to your long term memory. Even though long term memories are stored somewhere else, without the FAT entries in your brain you can't access your long term memories.

  23. Easier method to teleport between solar systems by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. Send DNA sequence for human/animal/etc from Star 1 to Star 2.
    2. Use DNA sequence to grow said creature.
    3. Install memory sequences, also sent as information.
    4. Wake person up.
    5. Keep original as slave in vast human slave army used to conquer the galaxy.
    6. PROFIT!

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Easier method to teleport between solar systems by ThomsonsPier · · Score: 1

      I think you have the makings of a novel there...

  24. Entanglement is not Teleportation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Entanglement is NOT teleportation as the general public think of it.

    I think all this teleportation hype is pure b u l l p u c k y to get funding dollars!

  25. Distance?? by Bl4d3 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2006/10/04/195427 .htm (danish) clams 50 meters instead of .5.

    --
    40% Funny, 40% Insightful, 40% Informative, 40% Dolomite
  26. Finaly! by VagaStorm · · Score: 1

    So now I just need Seth Brundle to mix me up with the right species for up grades, right? elefant for memory, and chiks should definatly get some cat for agility :p

    1. Re:Finaly! by MrSquishy · · Score: 0

      Clearly the Snail Dung spelling "up grades" are holding. Good luck with the others.

    2. Re:Finaly! by the_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Why does no one make reference to the right movie? Andre Delambre FTW. Seth can go fuck himself.

      --
      grey wolf
      LET FORTRAN DIE!
  27. Re:Isn't it just the quantum information that is.. by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

    Sort of.

    You have to transfer information from one document to another. If you look it, or measure in any way, the original - it is instantly destroyed.

    This method allows you to transfer the information without measuring (i.e. destroying) it.

  28. Can someone explain teleportation by zoftie · · Score: 1

    Or what it would entitle. What are the mechanics of the way it suppose to work. And what are the caveats, like can it be used like a replicators. Is there inherent data loss? It is a popular scientific token, thats been passed around for many years, I just wonder if it is now what we expect it to be. Like atoms that are transported are not exactly same atoms, ie electrons missing.

    I understand that through quantum entanglement you can have make exact copy, by imparting one of the two photons onto other matter. When photon is imparted into a new area does described atom disappear from the original location, just like schrodinger's(not sure of the name) cat?

    1. Re:Can someone explain teleportation by zoftie · · Score: 1

      From what I can ascertain, teleportation is of the *STATE* of energy or matter. If somehow it can be twisted, can be made a usefull scanning device, like tricoder, thats my guess. As you can see exact state of matter inside of a solid object.

  29. Scientific news reporting: a rough guide by CaptainCheese · · Score: 0, Troll

    Here's a pretty simple way to figure out if something is or is not "good" science.

    It's in the form of two examples:

    1 - research is published in a recognised, peer-reviewed journal such as Nature, Science, etc. - probably well presented, may be reproducable, generally considered the correct way to present the findings.

    2 - research is announced in the normal press first, for example on Yahoo!News via the Reuters news feed - "scientists" are either idiots, over-excitable, crave attention, being mis-represented, or a combination of the four. Generally considered an amazingly stupid way to present the findings.

    I'll leave it to yourselves to decide which category this one fits into.

    --
    -- .sigs are a waste of data...turn them off...
    1. Re:Scientific news reporting: a rough guide by CaptainCheese · · Score: 0

      Never mind. According to the Scientific American article the story was first printed in Nature.

      Thanks for the link, MyNymWasTaken!

      --
      -- .sigs are a waste of data...turn them off...
  30. oh no by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

    I have a feeling this thread is going to have millions of hundreds of comments all making the same joke about the wording of the blurb.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  31. It's an episode of TNG by thrill12 · · Score: 1

    Where Will Riker meets his former self. I believe season 7 or 6.
    In that episode, the "transport beam bounced off the atmosphere", leaving a copy behind.
     
    OMG, I just realised why I am still here and single...

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  32. No, more than that (or less) by 2short · · Score: 2, Informative


    Given that they are in Europe, they are presumably using british English, where "thousands of billions" is the correct term for 10^15. So in American English, that would be Quadrillions.

    Trillions, in British English, would be 10^18, but if he meant that he'd probalby have said so.

    That American & British English spell various words differently is completely understandable, that we use the same words for totally different numbers is utterly ridiculous.

    1. Re:No, more than that (or less) by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Look, nobody uses that cheeseball, nobody has for years (or billion of seconds)

  33. Right... by msimm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its about time to stop calling it teleportation because the implications are much stranger: do you really want to die and while being (hopefully!) reassembled elsewhere? If this is basically like fax or xerox how many copies of myself can I make? And of course the devilish old questions, if you reassemble something atomically does that mean there is no such thing as a soul, or did you atomize it on the other side (or is it in fact, physical)?

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:Right... by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      "And of course the devilish old questions, if you reassemble something atomically does that mean there is no such thing as a soul, or did you atomize it on the other side (or is it in fact, physical)?"

      The most obvious answer would be "it is physical".

      This hypothesis can be tested. If I hit you in the head with a very large hammer at a very high velocity will you lose your soul? answer : yes.

      This principle is widely accepted by society (in the realm of superstition and religion apparently consensus matters). We hire forensic pathologists to do autopsies rather than tarot card readers and psychics. It wasn't that we would not prefer to use tarrot cards as this can be done by teenagers working for minimum wage. But occult means have never been reliable in telling us the cause of death (the cause of someone losing their soul).

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    2. Re:Right... by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      do you really want to die and while being (hopefully!) reassembled elsewhere?

      This has nothing to do with "reassembling" anything. Merely with moving a quantum state from one place to another.

      One year from now, 95% of the atoms in your body will have been replaced. Practially all the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen in your system is being replaced all the time. Does that mean you're "dying" and "being reassembled"? Doe it bother you?

      What makes me me and you you is not the particles we're composed of. It is the arrangement of these particles, the structural information represented by the way the particles act, react, interact. The "management style" if you will. Taking every oxygen atom in your body and replacing it with another oxygen atom from somewhere else doesn't change anything in this arrangement. It happens all the time anyways. So what?

      Every glass of water you drink contains many molecules that have passed through my body before. Through Aristoteles body. And, yes, obligatory /.-fantasy: Isabella Rosselini's body. But they're just molecules - they don't matter. What matters is the arrangement of these molecules. So teleportation moves the arrangement from place A to B without moving the atoms themselves. Which, as far as I caan see, is really all that's needed.

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    3. Re:Right... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      So if professor X made something with the same quantum state as you and it stood there looking at you, would you have any objections to X shooting you in the face since, well, you're still over there?

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    4. Re:Right... by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      1) This has nothing to do with TFA

      2) I have no intent, nor reason to shoot myself.

      I recommend that you do not respond to (2) until you've thought about this for a moment: I can win every game based on the prisoner dilemma, if I'm playing with myself as a partner.

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    5. Re:Right... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      1) It has everything to do with TFA since it still (AIUI) seems to be working on the 'make a copy' principle. This process does not involve destruction of the original, but if one wishes to transport something this would be a logical next step.

      2) You wouldn't have to. The aforementioned Professor X would be waiting to do that. No need to bother with the prisoner dilemma.

      What would the process look like from /your/ perspective? Do you think your point of view would move from one side of the room to the other as the copy was made?

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    6. Re:Right... by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      It has everything to do with TFA since it still (AIUI) seems to be working on the 'make a copy' principle.

      No, it doesn't. You cannot use quantum entanglement to make a copy of a state.

      This process does not involve destruction of the original,

      It involves transfer of the state of the original stsem to a different carrier. This leaves the previous carrier in a random state. In your nomenclature it very much involves "the destruction of the original".

      Really. RTFA before you try to question implications.

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
  34. Do we even want this type of technology? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Presumably we are years away from this even being remotely possible, if at all...but do we really even want this kind of technology?? Chances are if it is even perfected, the public will never see it and it will only be used by the government, but imagine what could happen if it ever got into the wrong hands. Criminals could use it to steal whatever they wanted, pedophiles teleporting your kids directly out of their rooms or heaven forbid a terrorist teleporting a nuclear weapon into the middle of New York or Washington. Then we will all have to purchase all the new shield technology to protect ourselves and our possessions and goodness knows what that will do to your energy bills, which are high enough already. No thanks.....

  35. "raised the bar"? by SeePage87 · · Score: 2, Funny

    The least they could do is make a corny teleportation pun, like, "In a sudden jump forward..." or something. Such a waste.

    1. Re:"raised the bar"? by chmod+a+x+mojo · · Score: 0

      dude, they teleported the bar up!

      --
      To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
  36. The Oort cloud. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I could use it to teleport all the dust bunnies hiding behind computers to a passing Klingon ship.


    Dust bunnes? You think small! I have a long list of politicians and religious fundamentalist leaders I'd like to teleport onto an icy planetoid in the Oort cloud.
  37. dude! by matt328 · · Score: 1

    thousands of billions, huh? That's like, alot right?

    --
    Check out the cave on the east side of lake Hylia. Strange and wonderful things live in it.
  38. Oblig ST... by Chris+Brewer · · Score: 1

    Enterprise, what we got back didn't live long... fortunately.

    --
    Consultancy: If you're not part of the solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem
  39. Possible Problems by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 0

    I just hope that Mustafa anticipates feline complications this time.

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  40. Macroscopic Atomic Object. by pavon · · Score: 1

    Hehe. I'm still trying to figure out how something with thousands of billions of atoms can be described as atomic. Or where they are finding macroscopic atoms. Must have teleported it in from another dimension.

  41. The movie was real by jaephu · · Score: 1

    Could KPax be real?!

    1. Re:The movie was real by Carthag · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the ending.

  42. This is so not teleportation by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
    How far is this from teleportation?

    Suppose things were easy and we lived in a classical world. Then to teleport a particle from location A to B then all we'd have to do is send a message from A to B saying "there is particle of type X at position Y with momentum Z" and the person at the other end could go into a box, get one of the particles of type X out, and place it at a new position Y' (which is a suitable translate of Y) with momentum Z. Call this process 'C'.

    The above is relatively easy. Now think how far that is from actual teleportation. It's a scheme for transporting one particle. It's conceptually trivial, but in practice it gets us nowhere if we want to beam a person from A to B.

    Now the world is more complicated than this because it's quantum, not classical. This sets us back because we can't even carry out process 'C'. (Heisenberg principle 'n' all that.) What 'quantum teleportation' does is implement a new process Q that accomplishes most of what C does. We can send information from A to B and use it to construct a particle at B. Unlike process C, we mess up the original particle at A, so we can't use it to duplicate. But it does give an effective, though tricky, procedure for transporting a single particle. Suppose someone had a machine for doing C with single particles, I doubt anyone would be making press releases saying "we've invented a transporter".

    And now we can say what process Q gets us. It gets us to a point where with more work we can do most of what C did. So it makes as much sense to call this 'teleportation' as process C. Ie. it isn't teleportation at all.

    Quantum teleportation is interesting for a different reason. Not because it makes teleportation possible, but because is demolishes one argument against teleportation. In particular, it demolishes the argument Laurence Krauss uses against teleportation in The Physics of Star Trek. But honestly, this objection is more of a philosophical issue than a practical one. (Ironically, quantum teleportation means that Star Trek wouldn't need 'Heisenberg compensators' :-)

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    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  43. What's that smell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MY head is on the body of a fly and why am I standing in sh#t?

  44. But terrorists.....! by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    Teleporting would severely hamper governments' abilities to control the movement of people and other material objects. In this age of paranoid fear of terrorists, and other control oriented behaviour (tax, excise, War On Drugs, War On Illegal Aliens,..., one wonders whether governments will shut down any programs before they get anywhere near making practical teleporting work.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:But terrorists.....! by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Well, consider that a) not all governments are pretending to be paranoid as a means to suppress their people and b) what's the difference between stepping out of a teleport pad into the welcoming arms of Bubba the customs officer or stepping out of a plane?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    2. Re:But terrorists.....! by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      Shut them down, no. Co-opt them and classify their research, Definitely.

  45. You aren't even moving their particles. by pavon · · Score: 1

    This has nothing to do with "actual" teleportation.
    All it is transferring the quantum state of one atom (spin etc) to that of another. So you aren't moving particles, you aren't transferring information about the relative arrangement of particles, or even what types of particles you are made of. If there were already two exact physical copies of your body you *might* be able to use an advanced version of this to sync up the quantum state of each corresponding atom, but even that is unlikely.

  46. DON'T TELL MICROSOFT! by Arthur+Dent+'99 · · Score: 1

    Please make sure that this information doesn't make it back to Microsoft; otherwise, they will immediately institute a poorly-implemented QRM (Quantum Rights Management) to restrict teleporation to only approved Partner(TM) destinations using "Quantum Genuine Advantage", and the infamous "Blue Screen of Death" will take on a much more literal meaning!

    1. Re:DON'T TELL MICROSOFT! by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      More like "Blue body of death". Your body would be blue-scattered to four corners of Universe.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  47. You mean really, really absurd? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the idea that you can tear something apart at the molecular level and send it somewhere in a "beam" is absurd.

    You mean as "absurd" as, say, instantaneous (no, not merely speed of light, but actually instantaneous) action at a distance as predicted by Bell's Theorem and confirmed for entangled pairs of particles?

    Yep, it's quite absurd. Yet it's what reality has decided she feels like doing.

    So you'd better go easy on declarations of absurdity. They can turn around and bite you.

    And that's especially true for matter and energy and information, which are increasingly starting to look like different aspects of the same thing.

  48. more practical application by bSMfh · · Score: 1

    You could use this technology to do rapid backups of you pron collection -- gigs of jpgs at the speed of light!

  49. Information by chord.wav · · Score: 1

    If the information can be stored, you could do a backup of you. Better yet, a Time Machine 'a la' Mac's Leopard for pretty interface that guarantees Ooohhs and Ahhhss while you go back to a previous state of you. You'll will be able to browse back until you see your liver as it was before THAT night.

    1. Re:Information by Geminii · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna tee the datastream and back myself up to disk once a day, in case of fatal accident.

  50. Cut and Paste by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1

    Boiled down to one sentence: Cut and Paste. There.

  51. Re:Ugh... Not this again. by SlayerDave · · Score: 1
    I come to your site to find posts about intelligent, informative articles concerning esoteric subjects in science and technology

    You're new here, aren't you?

  52. Read the elegant universe? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

    That helped me a little bit.

    --
    You mad
  53. Similar arguments in nanotech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your post reminded me of similar considerations in nanotechnology.

    If you take an "original" something and make an atom-by-atom perfect "copy" through molecular manufacturing, then the concepts of "old" and "new" lose their common meaning. Replicate a thousand-year old Song dynasty vase and your "new" atomically identical "copy" is also a thousand years old, to the second.

    The art merchants are going to have a fit, just like the RIAA have with digital copies of music. And now it seems that teleportation by entanglement may join nanotech in the replication fun. :-)

  54. Teleportation kills by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

    This has been argued before... Teleporters are big nasty death machines.

    When you step in, you are recreated elsewhere and your original body is destroyed.

    Worse yet, since your copy is exactly the same as you to an outside observer, a society could theoretically use teleporters for centuries and not realize that every time someone steps in, they perceive their own death.

    And there's no way to prove this is or isn't the case.

    I will never step in a teleporter. You shouldn't either.

    -Z

    1. Re:Teleportation kills by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1
      every time someone steps in, they perceive their own death.

      I never perceive going to sleep. How could I perceive my own death?

      Our minds are such leaky things, always forgetting to do this and that. We are so discontinous that a little bit more won't be noticed.

    2. Re:Teleportation kills by Geminii · · Score: 1

      This doesn't mean I can't invent the teleporter and make squillions from everyone who *does* use one. The first thing I'll buy will be a huge chunk of land with a little house in the middle and NO FRIGGING TELEPORTERS. I'll be the only guy not neighbours with everyone else on the planet.

  55. Here you go. by ultramk · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure this is just a description of the equipment, not the actual experiment. It gets a little technical for me near the end, can anyone explain the details?

    m-

    --
    You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
  56. Sci-fi, Way Station by Virtual_Raider · · Score: 1

    Read Way Station by Clifford D. Simak. It's a wonrderful tale, and it uses this exact same tech. And the story is some 50 years old.

    --
    +Raider of the lost BBS
  57. Common Misconception by avonhungen · · Score: 1

    Your questions are premised on the untrue assumption that you are your body. You aren't your body, nor any result of that body's physical operation (ie the mind). A little introspection is sufficient to convince yourself of the truth of that. Otherwise, Doug Hofstadter is an excellent place to start reading...

    1. Re:Common Misconception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You aren't your body, nor any result of that body's physical operation (ie the mind).

      That's merely YOUR belief. Although I have done a ton of introspection (and a lot of hallucinogenic drugs), I believe that you ARE your body.

    2. Re:Common Misconception by nu1x · · Score: 1

      You tell em.

      I really don't get how some people associate themSELVES with their meat.
      It's like they have no spirit.
      Maybe we (those of us who know about non-material origins of consciousness) are different in some way.

      --
      I have nothing to lose but my bindings.
    3. Re:Common Misconception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I really don't get how some people associate themSELVES with their meat.
      > It's like they have no spirit.

      Read a bit about lobotomy victims^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpatients. They have no sense of 'self' as you and I do. They see their own and other people's bodies as just the meat. Intriguing, because it implies that a physical phenomenon is responsible for the sense of self.

      > Maybe we (those of us who know about non-material origins of consciousness) are different in some way.

      Or maybe these origins are not truly non-material, it's just that our frontal lobes somehow make it seem that way?

  58. Please explain by snowwrestler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Please describe, in a repeatable, objectively testable way, how to tell the difference between living and dead matter at the quantum level. For that matter please describe how to tell the difference between living and dead matter over very short periods of time. There's a lot about "life" that we don't understand scientifically yet.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Please explain by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Please describe, in a repeatable, objectively testable way, how to tell the difference between living and dead matter at the quantum level.
      You don't even have a clue what "quantum level" means. You might as well ask me how to tell the difference between apples and oranges at the "astrophysical level" for all the sense you're making. Throwing together random technobabble does not meaning make.
      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    2. Re:Please explain by Urkki · · Score: 1
      "Please describe, in a repeatable, objectively testable way, how to tell the difference between living and dead matter at the quantum level."


      Most likely, none. But since this is absence of difference, it's pretty much impossible to *prove* it. Perhaps there is a quantum level (whatever that means) difference, we just can't measure it...

      "For that matter please describe how to tell the difference between living and dead matter over very short periods of time."


      Depending on your exact definition of "living" and "matter", they may be none. For example there's no difference in the matter, the atoms of a molecule (even e big one, like DNA or a protein), wether it is part of a life form or not.

      On a cellular level, with millions of molecules, you could measure (of course that pretty much destroys the cell) all the different molecules in it, and from their ratios it would probably be easy to tell if the cell will keep on living (be able to maintain it's structure and metabolism) or if it is dead/dying (foreign molecules, broken proteins, broken DNA chains, broken membranes etc). "Dying" cell just means its structure is degrading faster than it is being rebuilt (until finally the cell superstructure breaks and the dead cell as a single object no longer exists).

      "There's a lot about "life" that we don't understand scientifically yet."


      Sure, but it need not (it could, but it need not) be anything "mystical". For a perspective, consider:

      - How to tell a difference between a working and a broken car in a quantum level?

      - How to tell the difference between working and broken vehicle matter over very short periods of time?
    3. Re:Please explain by Adhemar · · Score: 1
      Please describe, in a repeatable, objectively testable way, how to tell the difference between living and dead matter at the quantum level.
      You don't even have a clue what "quantum level" means. You might as well ask me how to tell the difference between apples and oranges at the "astrophysical level" for all the sense you're making. Throwing together random technobabble does not meaning make.
      Why wouldn't grandfather have a clue what quantum level means? Just because he asked for a repeatable testable way?

      Even if you could describe, in a repeatable, objectively testable way, how to tell the difference between living and dead matter at a sub-atomic level, I'd be very impressed.

      Even on atomic level: how does a atom belonging to a living body differ from one that doesn't? Just when do food-parts or drinks or derivatives absorbed by the body become part of the body? (Ignoring for the moment the issue of determining just when exactly the body a dying person becomes completely dead.)

    4. Re:Please explain by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 1

      The real explanation is quite a bit longer than you want (it won't fit into a Slashdot post). It takes some study to answer these questions to oneself. Not very much if you are smart, but still a study. A good book to read is The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins.

      Sorry for linking to an offline text, but I haven't seen this book in electronic form anywhere.

      --
      17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
    5. Re:Please explain by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 1

      To the best of our understanding, life is a self-replicating information structure. We cannot yet model this information structure, but this is, most likely, merely a question of time. The full description is lacking (this is correct), but we do have the big picture and descriptions of a number of processes.

      The physical carrier of this information structure are bodies that consist of molecules (including large organic molecules), chemical and electrochemical reactions. There is no need to introduce difference on the level of individual molecules and atoms: the elementary properties of matter are the same in a piece of rock and in your body.

      These are just words, you don't have to believe them (silly were you if you did!). But you can understand this yourself based on the (scientific) knowledge we have. This takes reading.

      --
      17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
    6. Re:Please explain by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
      Even on atomic level: how does a atom belonging to a living body differ from one that doesn't?
      It doesn't.
      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    7. Re:Please explain by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > Why wouldn't grandfather have a clue what quantum level means?

      FU! I used to watch "Quantum Leap" all the time! It was on Sci-Fi, one or two numbers below the Charmed channel.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  59. Just like in Stargate... by jonfr · · Score: 1

    They use light in Stargate to teleport pepole, hardware, etc. Hey! Wait a min....

  60. Not So! by camperdave · · Score: 1

    As usual, the Star Trek writers failed to consider any implications of this astonishing possibility.

    Of course they did. The episode was filled with psychological and sociological implications.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Not So! by AxminsterLeuven · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the Riker/Troi/Riker sandwich scenes were cut, because the episode ran too long. They'll be on the 50th anniversary Extreme Super High Density Blueray Disc set.

  61. Selfsame by Foerstner · · Score: 1
    Yes, with absolute certainty because it is a perfect copy. If it wasn't "really the same" then it would NOT be a perfect copy. You question indicates that you need to think about the phrase "perfect copy" or otherwise about the phrase "really the same" (or maybe both) until you grasp their meaning. Hint: it's the same.

    From a dictionary:

    1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect -- used with as
    2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to


    You're talking about definition 1, according to which a perfect copy is the same as the original, because no analysis or measurement could distinguish them.

    By definition two, the two objects, are two objects, not one, and thus they are not the same: there has been both an addition and a discontinuance of the (destroyed) source object. That is, the copy is not the selfsame.

    The philosophical question, to be especially pedantic, is, is selfsameness important? (Especially if we're talking about humans.)
    --
    The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
  62. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really-nice-guy-post?

  63. I see the use now by Mazin07 · · Score: 1

    Soon I'll be able to ditch my DSL. I bet I could torrent so fast with a teleporter instead some copper wire.

  64. The principle of exchange by pscottdv · · Score: 1

    You are not understanding the principle of exchange. If you have two quantum systems in *exactly* the same quantum state, then they are not distinguishable, even in principle. There is no difference between "quantum state" and "instance". Either system can be considered a "teleported" copy of the other.

    You and your friend are not in the same quantum state no matter how similar your behavior.

    --

    this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

  65. Heisenberg Compensator by sadler121 · · Score: 1

    So they finally figured out how the Heisenberg compensator works?

    1. Re:Heisenberg Compensator by maroberts · · Score: 1

      So they finally figured out how the Heisenberg compensator works?
      Yes. It works just fine.

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

  66. macroscopic? by noigmn · · Score: 1

    "The experiment involved for the first time a macroscopic atomic object containing thousands of billions of atoms."

    I'm still waiting for a day when they can publish science news without suggesting stuff that is greater than what has been done. Reading this you would think they teleported some macroscopic solid containing a complex structure of atoms, or so they'd like you to think.

    For once it would be nice to read the full story the first time so you didn't have to find the real one that says they have pretty much done the same as normal but with a twist so they can claim something new. In terms of practical implications it has absolutely no value in making us closer to teleporting macroscopic objects (unless clouds of gas or BECs can be called objects). When they can teleport a spoon or a tennis ball or a rabbit then they can mention 'macroscopic teleportation'. Till then they should stick to throwing around 'quantum computing' as their catch phrase. Though in its usability quantum computing is only a small amount ahead of string theory and maybe behind fusion.

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  67. Re:Ugh... Not this again. by noigmn · · Score: 1

    If i had any mod points I'd give you some. :)

    Damn he set that up well for you.

    I had to look up esoteric too; I sometimes get the feeling that scientists read the thesaurus more than the journals in America.

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    Slashdot is powered by your submission.
  68. Be afraid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very afraid..

    Cuz the first time i get ahold of one of these devices... i'm transporting all the morons into the sun.

    how do you think the star trek universe got so nice anyways...

    captcha: slashed :)

  69. How big is that though? by user24 · · Score: 1

    are "thousands of billions of atoms" visible to the naked eye? pea-sized? dust-sized? electron-microscope-viewable-only? what?

  70. Position of particles? by 5plicer · · Score: 1

    What about the relative positions of the particles at the other end? Even if the copy's particles are coerced into taking on the same spins as the original object's particles, we still need the copy's particles to be arranged in the same manner as those of the original object. Otherwise, transporting a human would give you a pile of mush (like in Star Trek: The Motion Picture).

    --
    The bits on the bus go on and off... on and off... on and off...
  71. Matter Transmission by SMACX+guy · · Score: 1

    The first living thing to go through the device was a small white rat. I still have him, in fact. As you can see, the damage was not so great as they say.

  72. Teleportation Gets a Boost by pipingguy · · Score: 1

    What, did they put Type-R stickers and an outrageous rear wing on the machine or something?

  73. Life imitates art? by chinton · · Score: 1

    I didn't see in the article -- did they teleport the "macroscopic atomic object containing thousands of billions of atoms" (read -- the hostesses undergarments) 1/2 meter to the left or right?

  74. Then answer my second question by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    Unless "very short periods of time" is too technobabbly for you?

    Or perhaps I am being too complicated...how about you just describe to me the best way to test if ANY piece of matter is living or dead.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Then answer my second question by Dogers · · Score: 1
      how about you just describe to me the best way to test if ANY piece of matter is living or dead.
      Poke it and see if it responds?
      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    2. Re:Then answer my second question by MisterBates · · Score: 1

      1) Does it eat?
      2) Does it breathe?
      3) Does it grow?

      At least according to Robin Williams on Sesame Street, which is good enough for me.

    3. Re:Then answer my second question by chochos · · Score: 1

      Poke it with a stick, if it moves it's alive, if it doesn't move it's either dead or really really drunk.

  75. Of course.. by msimm · · Score: 1

    I'd tend to agree with you, but I'm a neurophysiology fan. One big complicated machine right? But that doesn't work for everyone. The question still stands. Its like the tree falling in the woods only much more...interesting.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  76. unix and mv or cp command - was Re:Please... by speculatrix · · Score: 1
    in unix, mv is an "atomic" operation, meaning that the file will not be in two places at the same time. What happens is that the file's data is "unhooked" from its original directory and hooked onto the new directory, so the data doesn't move, only the place it appears in the file system - effectively a hard link shift.

    Now, that that, it only applies if you're moving a file around in the same file system. If you move a file between one disk/partition/filesystem and another, it is a process of

    copy to temporary

    rename target

    delete original

  77. Losing battle there... by Burb · · Score: 1

    I think a lot of Brits have given up on the old definition of billion = 10^12, and they now settle for 10^9 to conform with American usage. Except the pedants.

    --

  78. Obligatory correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Beam me half a meter sideways, Scotty"

  79. purging by __aapspi39 · · Score: 0

    My feeling on this is that we'll find that human teleportation, molecular decimation, breakdown and reformation is inherantly purging; it'll make a man a king!

  80. The meaning of life by thesnide · · Score: 1

    But a question remains: If we manage somehow to teleport all the atoms/quarks/whatever of something, will it still be alive ?

  81. I for one welcome Dr. Sam Beckett as our overlord by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paging Scott Bakula...

  82. so location itself isn't a quantum property ? by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

    Just wondering if it is possible to move teleportate particles, without altering their state Then surely location itself is something a particle isn't aware of. This would mean someting in formation theory is masses dont contain location information. So what does that say about locatoins in space or speed of particles if those particles are not aware of it...? (and if the particles are not aware of it what then keeps things in place) Perhaps i gues there is no limit of this to happen and we have been lucky that while you where reading this you didn't end up on the moon. ohno a phylosophical/physics - brainwave

    --
    I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
  83. Look on the bright side by abb3w · · Score: 1

    [N]erds will stop at NOTHING to prove Star Trek is real.

    While I'll agree it's daft, are you willing to conceed that it constitues a less detrimental and more sustainable impetus for technological advancement than wars between nation-states?

    Yet another way in which Star Trek contributes to the improvement of our society.

    --
    //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    1. Re:Look on the bright side by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1
      are you willing to conceed that it constitues a less detrimental and more sustainable impetus for technological advancement than wars between nation-states
      Heck yeah! Not saying it's bad at all. You just gotta picture it...in some labratory somewhere, there are a bunch of guys sitting around in white coats saying "What are we gonna do next? Silicon based life forms? Tricorders? Holidecks? Deanna Troi android? oooOOOooo!!!"
      --
      blah blah blah
    2. Re:Look on the bright side by abb3w · · Score: 1

      Silicon based life forms?

      Not yet. Non-aqueous solvent life looks more promising in the Xenochemistry field, FWIW.

      Tricorders?

      Check.

      Holidecks?

      Check.

      Deanna Troi android?

      More or less, although it looks more like Keiko Ishikawa O'Brein.

      And, of course, there's Hawking's remark about the Warp Core when touring the set of TNG's Engineering: "I'm working on that." And the resemblance between TOS communicators and modern cell phones.

      Aren't you glad Star Trek had a generally utopian view of the future, instead of the common dystopian views? =)

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    3. Re:Look on the bright side by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1

      * falls out of chair *

      --
      blah blah blah
  84. Not Star Trek? by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

    So in order to get this to work on say, a human, you'd need the exact number and type of atoms in the human body already group together somewhere in the exact configuration of the orginal human, and then this process would copy state from one human to the other, essentialy destroying the state of the first group of atoms.

    Let's test a cat.

    --
    Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
  85. Mystical, no. But I'd say mysterious by snowwrestler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My point is that right now there is clearly more to "life" than can be described by our understanding of the raw physics of the materials involved. I don't think it's wrong to call that mysterious--science can be used to investigate mysteries. I do agree with you that a mystical answer is not useful or valuable. But pointing out a gap in our understanding will necessarily involve imprecise language. That doesn't make it a mystical explanation though IMO.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Mystical, no. But I'd say mysterious by Urkki · · Score: 1
      "My point is that right now there is clearly more to "life" than can be described by our understanding of the raw physics of the materials involved. I don't think it's wrong to call that mysterious--science can be used to investigate mysteries. I do agree with you that a mystical answer is not useful or valuable. But pointing out a gap in our understanding will necessarily involve imprecise language. That doesn't make it a mystical explanation though IMO."

      The way I see it, there' really isn't much mysterious about basic life either. The molecular machinery of a cell may be awe-inspiring in how it works, and a multi-cellular body as well, but I don't think any new physics or chemistry is needed to explain how a living creature works. So I wouldn't call that "mysterious" myself.

      However, self-conciousnes is something that in my opinion certainly is mysterious. There's even room for it being mystical from the scientific point of view. If we some day create self-concious computers, then the mystery may be solved, but until then, I find it hard to believe that self-conciousness (feeling the difference between my body and *me*, seeing my hands typing while contemplating these philosophical thoughts, etc) can be explained as just plain bio-electro-chemistry of the brain.
    2. Re:Mystical, no. But I'd say mysterious by alexo · · Score: 1


      > My point is that right now there is clearly more to "life" than can be described by our understanding of the raw physics of the materials involved.

      Right now there is clearly more to anything than can be described by our understanding of the raw physics of the materials involved.

      Hell, we cannot even predict the state of a system consisting only of 3 bodies in motion with gravity being the only force operating on them without resorting to numerical approximations.

      Life? Don't talk to me about life!

  86. Yes but by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    The point of the GGP is that the quantum mechanical state of the physical components of life at any single point in time might not be sufficient to define living vs. dead. I believe this is an open question. So assuming that one could teleport the (admittedly enormous) collection of states in a living being, would the matter "receiving" the information then live, or remain inert? As I understand the current state of our knowledge this is a) unanswerable short of actually trying it and b) academic anyway as the impracticalities abound. :-)

    I'm actually in agreement with you and I've read (and enjoyed) Dawkins' books. Basically I was just offended at the arrogance on display by the GP. I'm all for debunking mysticism but let's not dismiss questions that remain open to scientific investigation. There are certainly scientific theories now that we know are well-supported, but remain counter-intuitive and mysterious.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Yes but by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 1

      assuming that one could teleport the (admittedly enormous) collection of states in a living being, would the matter "receiving" the information then live, or remain inert?

      Are you familiar with biophysics enough to know the state of our knowledge on this question? I am not, so I'm asking you.

      One informal opinion (see at the end of the article) is that quantum teleportation might be not needed to recreate a person. "Classical" measurements might suffice. It is also pointed out that NMR and ESR tomography machines in hospitals disturb some quantum states inside the patient, yet this does not change a person.

      --
      17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
  87. Book rec. by Domomojo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Speaking of teleportation, one of the best SF novels about someone who could teleport is "Jumper" by Stephen Gould. It's presently out of print, but won't be much longer once the movie comes out next year. Try to read it before the movie will probably ruin it. Review here: http://www.lostbooks.org/guestreviews/2001-07-06-2 .html

  88. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Up your asshole?

  89. Re:Isn't it just the quantum information that is.. by Assmasher · · Score: 1

    Actually, the current method for entangling the atoms of the matter does destroy it.

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  90. Quantum memory by f43d348k · · Score: 1

    It strikes me how, every time quantum teleportation comes up, people thinks "Scottie, beam me up". As explained below, that isn't what "quantum teleportation" is about. The big deal in this article is something else: Quantum information has now been reliably transferred light to atoms. This is really neat if you want to store _and_ transport quantum data - light is really good for transmitting quantumdata, it could in not-so-farfetched theory be done using the existing opticfiber-networks. However, it moves with the speed of light and thus, sucks for storing data once you have it. What Polzik and the team he worked with made, is the
    solution to this problem: take the quantum information in the light, and store it in a nice, not-moving, stable atom. Supposidly, you can do the opposite as well, and hence it's a step forward for quantum memory (after all, the process I describe is exactly what "conventional" ram does, if you interchange ligthelectric current, quantum classical and atom "electronic system holding one bit of information in your computers memory")

    1. Re:Quantum memory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The instant messaging part of the quantum effect is the effect they are after. The fact that an entangled photon could be sent to the other side of the world while the other half of the pair remains here means that when untangled you can communicate 1 bit faster than light.

      Useful as we hit up against the speed of the electron in CPU's

      Ryan Upton

    2. Re:Quantum memory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The fact that an entangled photon could be sent to the other side of the world while the other half
      > of the pair remains here means that when untangled you can communicate 1 bit faster than light.

      No, that's a popular misconception.

      "Quantum entanglement does not enable the transmission of classical information faster than the speed of light."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

  91. Crazy way to travel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...spreading a man's cesium atoms all over the universe.

  92. In soviet russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the atoms teleport you!

  93. Classical quantum absorption by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    > It isn't so neat for amplitude and phase. Firstly, they are not conjugate variables
    > (like position and momentum), so measurement of one does not imply the other is disturbed.

    How do you measure phase without disturbing amplitude? Amplitude would be an energy measurement while phase would be a time-domain measurement. Time and energy are conjugate variables. I admit that the limitation on measurement of phase and amplitude is not as clear to me, but it seems like another facet of the same.

    > Unfortunately this does not correspond to duplicating the photon. Consider the
    > photoelectric effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect This is
    > a good rugged experimental demonstration that light interacts in the discret
    > lumps we call photons;

    I understand you to be making an argument here that photons can not be copied by the splitter because they are discrete entities and each goes either one way or the other. Right?

    > If you're able to resolve the double slit experiment and the photoelectric
    > effect without invoking superpositions, I'd be very interested to hear.

    I'm glad you asked. The photoelectric effect demonstrates that the light absorption interaction is quantized, and I certainly agree with that. The point to be made here is that this quantization does not have to be explained by quantizing the photon; it can be equally well explained by quantizing the absorption. The result is equivalent, since both cases result in a quantum of light being absorbed. The reality is not equivalent, since aside from the photoelectric effect I have not seen any experiment giving evidence that photons are such particles.

    My alternative explanation is that light is continuous in energy and no such thing as a "photon" exists. Atomic absorption is quantized because of discrete energy levels available to the electron. Atomic energy levels are discrete because the electron forms a standing wave around the nucleus and those waves are only stable at specific integer frequencies.

    The process of absorption occurs as follows. The electron orbit by itself (orbital size of ~0.1nm) is too small a target to absorb a light wavelength (400-700nm), for the same reason that you need a long antenna to listen to the radio. A frequency of 100MHz has wavelength of 3m and can not be heard if your antenna is only a millimeter in size, which is the same proportion as between light and electrons. The electron orbit, being an oscillating wave, generates and electromagnetic near-field (which does not radiate, but rather acts like energy storage) which couples to the incoming light wave and starts "sucking" energy out of it if the light wave can resonate with the near field. See this newsgroup thread and this article with some specific calculations.

    When the light frequency is resonant with the electron frequency the nearfield "antenna" gains energy, increases in amplitude, and proceeds to suck in even more energy as the effective receiver size increases. During this process the electron is in an unstable orbit, where the standing wave doesn't exactly "line up" and so keeps going up to and falling back from it, resulting in an equilibrium of energy transfer between the nearfield and the electron. You might thin

    1. Re:Classical quantum absorption by fishicist · · Score: 1

      I haven't read your comments carefully yet (I intend to, but it's nearly the weekend!). My comments may be less than coherent (see earlier comment about weekend) but, for now...

      Interesting point about matter being the thing that's quantised, and not the light. Pondering...

      You may want to look at the derivation of the black body spectrum as evidence of photons. It _seems_ impossible to reproduce observations without quantising the light. (i.e. if you don't, the maths implies something like a hot coal radiates huge amounts of ultraviolet light, which it clearly doesn't) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_catastrop he

      (I suppose this could be seen as a quantum effect in matter, not light, but if this is how light is made, it presumably suggests light is also quantised.)

      Good point about energy & time -> amplitude & phase; I'll ponder that. Problem, as far as I recall, is that phase isn't easy to extract from a wavefunction (in the way that momentum, position etc can be extracted).

      The double slit experiment works just as well with single electrons, and bigger things such as Carbon-60 molecules.

      Quantum Mechanics does explain the orbitals of electrons in atoms. Very well, in fact. Bohr's first stab at a model has been outdated, and orbitals are generally calculated using the Schrodinger equation (where THAT comes from is another matter!) and the electrostatic potential of the nucleus. Things like spin and such are included, and the results agree with experiment. There's no `artificial' constraint on the types of orbitals allowed - they're just the solution to the equation in that potential.

      The Bell inequalities really are worth the trouble. They provide some very compelling results contrary to hidden-variables and approachs with suggest the only real probability is our lack of knowledge. I'll refresh my memory of them if I get a chance. Unless something has been overlooked, probability really is a state of nature. I don't like it, but I can't find a way around it.

      There are lots of alternative theories to QM, usually proposed by people with no formal training in the field. I don't know your background, but you'd better know your conventional QM if you want to convince someone else to try to fill in the gaps in your theory. There are many people with the ability to either shoot this down, or make it in to something complete. (I am not one of these people!) i.e. I know lots who would be capable, but it mightn't be easy to convince them to spend their time trying.

      Some of Feynmann's interpretations seem odd, but his Lectures in Physics series is excellent. The conceptual issues part of Chris Isham's work http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/p001.html is also excellent (I had the good fortune to hear him lecture, and I hope it comes across half as well when written down). He deals with all the maths first, but the Conceptual Issues chapter can stand alone.

    2. Re:Classical quantum absorption by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > You may want to look at the derivation of the black body spectrum as evidence of
      > photons. It _seems_ impossible to reproduce observations without quantising the light.

      Light emission by excited electrons is necessarily quantized for the same reasons absorption is quantized. I am not very sure myself about the details of the emission process, but it seems that there would be some time for the orbital to "play" with energy before it commits to emission. I'd like to see a simulation of EM field during emission in 3D; then I could be more coherent. There are some interesting implications regarding radiation of accelerating charges that would be directly applicable to electron orbits. Mills postulates that accelerating charges must be "synchronous with the speed of light", whatever that means.

      > Quantum Mechanics does explain the orbitals of electrons in atoms.
      > Very well, in fact. Bohr's first stab at a model has been outdated

      Bohr does not derive quantization of energy levels; he postulates it. I'm reading this from "Introductory Quantum Mechanics" 4th Ed. by Liboff, page 40. There were further assumptions of quantizations; the Plank hypothesis and the de Broglie hypothesis. The official postulates of quantum mechanics already assume quantization. Postulate I states that every operator must satisfy the eigenvalue equation on the wavefunction (p68). The linear momentum operator is then defined as -ihDel on the next page. The energy hamiltonian is then defined as -hbar2/2mDel2 + V(r), also a clearly quantized entity.

      > orbitals are generally calculated using the Schrodinger equation

      Of course they are. With the above assumptions, how can you not come up with a quantized result? The operator definitions appear to me to be empirical in nature, just as the original blackbody radiation formulas were. If you curvefit accurately enough you'll eventually get something close to reality. But while this does indeed give you the correct results, as any good curve fitting ought to, it gives no explanation why only those particular eigenvalues are "allowed" or what happens if you try to put a wave on a "forbidden" energy level.

      > Schrodinger equation (where THAT comes from is another matter!)

      Shrodinger equation comes from the combination of a classical wave equation Del2f=-k2f with the de Broglie hypothesis of k = 2piP/h = 2pimv/h. Then Del2f = -4pi2m2v2/h2(f). Total energy of a particle is E=mv2/2 + V (V is potential energy), rearranged to mv2=2(E - V), which gives the Shrodinger equation when inserted in the wave equation. Observe how quantization arises by assuming the de Broglie relation. From this point on you will never get a result that contradicts it. (The derivation I am quoting is from "The Meaning of Quantum Theory" by Jim Baggott, p22). Also, in Postulate IV of QM, the time-independent Shrodinger equation Hf(r)=Ef(r) defines energy levels to be discrete eigenvalues.

      > Things like spin and such are included, and the results agree with experiment.

      No, spin is most specifically not included. It is artificially introduced from empirical evidence through Pauli spin operator matrices. [Lieboff, p512] There is no way to derive spin from the Shrodinger's equation alone. Mills claims to have been able to do this, by imposing the nonradiation condition and orbitsphere geometry.

      > There are lots of alternative theories to QM, usually proposed by people with no formal training in the field.

      If so many people think your view of the world is wrong, shouldn't you at least offer some justification for it? Truth, of course, does not depend on the number of people who believe in it, but if people keep calling you a liar it is wise to at least check your assumptions. In the case of QM, all I see is totally unnecessary assumptions of energy quantization and nonreality. Is it any wonder I fail to become converted to the evil f

    3. Re:Classical quantum absorption by fishicist · · Score: 1

      In no particular order...

      Spin
      ====

      Agreed - Spin cannot be derived from the Schrodinger equation alone, but it emerges naturally in the relativistic theory; there are far fewer ad hoc additions to QM than you suggest.

      The Schrodinger equation is incompatible with relativity. Schrodinger knew this, but was unable to fix it; we needed Paul Dirac for that. For understanding the fundamentals of QM, and trying seriously to punch holes in it, a cursory understanding of non-relativistic QM is woefully inadequate.

      Quantisation
      ============

      Quantisation emerges - it isn't postulated. Eigenvalues can be continuous.

      Take the momentum operator (which, as it's normally defined, just uses a differential to extract the momentum from the equation describing a travelling wave psi = e^(i (k x - omega t)). This wave describes a particle moving in free space. Nowhere have we suggested k should take only certain values and, hence, for a free particle, momentum k is continuous. Only when boundary conditions (i.e. particle in a box, or in the field around an atomic nucleus) are imposed do things start to become discrete. That quantities are discrete _emerges_ from QM, and is not deliberately built in to it.

      "The hamiltonian is ... also a clearly quantized entity."; "time-independent Shrodinger equation defines energy levels to be discrete eigenvalues"

      Not so. For the travelling wave psi = e^(i (k x - omega t)), in free space (i.e. V(r) = 0), H psi = (hbar k)^2 / (2 m) - there is no mention of (hbar k) being constrained to take one of a certain set of values - it is continuous. If you impose, say, V(r) = 0 for (|r| a/2), you have a `particle in a box` scenario. The Schrodinger equation has to be zero at r = (+/-)a/2 (this is from the maths, not an additional postulate) and you find there are only certain waves which satisfy this condition. THEN momentum (and hence energy) becomes quantised.

      Uncertainty Principle
      =====================

      As for the uncertainty principle... if things are decribed by waves, it is inescapable. See the Bandwidth Theorem. For the case of a wave, this just says that the shorter a wave in time, the less well known it's frequency. Imagine playing a 1kHz note for less than 1ms; you would be hard pressed to work out the frequency if you just had this short sample to work with.

      This was part of the inspiration/justification for the uncertainty principle, and is certainly not the whole story.

      Schrodinger Equation
      ====================

      To clarify, the Schrodinger equation is H psi = i hbar (d/dt) psi - nothing more.

      The Hamiltonian, H, can take many forms, but when it is first introduced it just uses the Classical Mechanics Hamiltonian and replaces the usual variabes (such as momentum) with the equivalent operators. More generally, it can be used to write down the total energy of two systems (such as an atom and a field) AND the interaction between them. This interaction term is used to describe emission/absorption of light by an atom, for example.

      Bohr
      ====

      As I stated, Bohr's approach is outdated; he had to make up many things to make a working model, but his model is relevant now only as a teaching aid. Incidently, it was the accellerating charges issue that made him propose there were certain `stable` orbits; something (like an electron around a nucleus or a planet around a star) in orbit is always accellerating towards the centre (i.e. nucleus or star) and hence, if it's charged (as an electron is), it should emit.

      Slits
      =====

      Double slits - try searching for this on Google Scholar or the arXiv.

      We physcists do like to keep things as simple as possible, and experiments have been done with apparatus very closely resembling Young's double slits, and not just in crystalography. Be careful when you talk of a conspiracy; all published scientific work is open to review, and the experiments are repeated independently. Such accusations could mark

    4. Re:Classical quantum absorption by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      > I want to put it delicately, but this sort of comment merely shows that you do
      > not yet understand QM sufficiently to add to the debate.

      You are entirely correct. I do not claim to have a deep understanding of QM. I have tried to gain one, but it is difficult to do without knowing what to read. For example, that introductory QM text I mentioned certainly was not helpful; in most cases it simply states the results, and while I appreciate that the derivations may be rather dense and involved for an introductory text, it is extremely off-putting to me when it starts spouting unsupported statements that the laws of physics do not hold at atomic scale. I am simply not going to accept this without complete justification, but every book I have read so far on the subject assumes otherwise. There is no discussion on where quantization comes from or what causes it, there is no justification of the uncertainty principle, and very little attention is paid to stating exactly what is assumed and what is derived. Perhaps if I were to seek a physics degree, some of it might be explained in class, but I rather doubt that.

      > be careful you are not attracted to alternative theories (e.g. Mills) just because they `feel right`.
      > For understanding the fundamentals of QM, and trying seriously to punch holes in it, a cursory
      > understanding of non-relativistic QM is woefully inadequate.

      I ought to make it clear that I am not particularly interested in "punching holes" in QM. I do not dislike it just because it "doesn't feel right", although that is certainly a factor. I dislike it because it is utterly useless to me. The reason I was looking at QM at all is to be able to do molecular simulations, stuff like predicting bond energies, electronegativity, and pKa. QM is absolutely incapable of solving these problems. Modern molecular simulators can use QM only with a whole slew of approximations, and even then no exact result can be obtained. It is for this reason that I believe we ought to ditch QM and all its nonsense and just start from scratch, without any assumptions of quantization. We need a theory that works for large systems and gives exact results, and QM will never be capable of either.

      > As for the uncertainty principle... if things are decribed by waves, it is inescapable.
      > See the Bandwidth Theorem. For the case of a wave, this just says that the shorter a
      > wave in time, the less well known it's frequency.

      It is only inescapable as a constraint of measurement. That is not the point I dispute. Even if a 1kHz wave only exists for 1ms, it still has a frequency, it is just difficult to measure. Again I would point out that just because we are not aware of a method for an exact measurement of conjugate variables, does not mean it does not exist. To assume the latter is a mind projection fallacy, just like intelligent design. When people then proceed to make a theory based on the uncertainty principle as a natural phenomenon, how can I help but look upon them with the same disdain I feel for creationists? When they proceed to say that I would be "enlightened" if I spent a decade poring through their dense maths looking for invalid assumptions, how can I help comparing this to the Christian claim that I would likewise be enlightened if I accepted God as my saviour and joined a monastery to devote my life to study of theology? If QM is indeed valid, it ought to be explainable, and ought to be explained instead of preached; yet, preaching is how QM is usually taught. Forgive me if I decide to pass on it and seek enlightement elsewhere.

      > Spin cannot be derived from the Schrodinger equation alone, but it emerges naturally
      > in the relativistic theory; there are far fewer ad hoc additions to QM than you suggest.

      I am not aware of any relativistic QM theory. In fact, I believe that to be one of the things most actively sought in modern physics.

      > Quantisation emerges - it isn't postulated.

      Then where is the com

    5. Re:Classical quantum absorption by fishicist · · Score: 1

      I was going to reply point by point, but I really must do something else with my Sunday.

      "I am not aware of any relativistic QM theory. In fact, I believe that to be one of the things most actively sought in modern physics."

      General Relativity is the problem. Resolving Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity (i.e. everything except gravity) has been done. It's called Quantum Field Theory. (Specifically Quantum Electrodynamics, or QED, for all things relating to the Coloumb force.) A lot has been done since the 1920s. I'd be surprised if you could get any useful molecular results from the Schrodinger equation.

      `Particle in a box` is a toy problem, designed to introduce the student to the idea of boundary conditions. Imagine a guitar string, fixed at both ends, and that's your physical model. The `wave` isn't electromagnetic, gravitational or the like; it is a description of probability amplitudes, the square of which corresponds to probability (in the generally used interpretation).

      The particle doesn't bounce off the walls. It is spread out, and doesn't rattle around like a classical ball. (If it did, you could measure the recoil as it hit the walls!)

      As for quantisation emerging: the postulates do not include discrete eigenvalues. Read them again. Preferably from a better text book. It only emerges when you apply quantum mechanics to a a specific situation.

      "...2+2=5..." The maths of QM isn't as hard as for number theory. And is certainly a lot more interesting.

      "Physics courses in college take the same path." [They state unjustified assumptions.]

      Have you taken one? Depending on the university, students are introduced the the subject in a bit of a rush, and only later (often in an optional course) come back to carefully examine the postulates.

      Sure, assumptions are necessary to simulate a real situation (like a molecule). Maybe it's not a clean theory. Or maybe we just don't know how to frame the maths to do it efficiently on a computer. Eitehr way, just because we have to simplfy it for a specific situation does not render the whole approach invalid.

      I stand by my comment that you know too little (you don't need years of study) to say it's wrong. As far as I can tell, it's not classical, so it doen't make sense/feel right, so you conclude it must be wrong. A lot of work has gone in to trying to reporoduce results with classical mechanics only, and we'd all embrace it, if only it would work.

  94. Bell's theorem by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    I forgot to comment on Bell's theorem and hidden variables, so here it is:

    > As for the system being in some state, but the only uncertainty being our
    > knowledge of it: this is the so called `hidden-variable' class of theories.

    No it isn't. Hidden variable theories assert that QM needs some parameter in its equations in order to dispel uncertainty in the results. I am asserting that QM is misinterpreting the measurements it already makes, so the "new" variables I am proposing are the ones it already has, but doesn't use properly. Hidden variable theories also assert that QM is valid but incomplete, whereas I am asserting that QM is not valid (although it may give correct results if properly used, just as astrology can often give proper description of a man's personality), or, in other words, does not give the correct picture of reality. Because hidden variable theories retain the salient points of QM, they can potentially be proven to be equivalent to QM. The Aspect experiment seems to have settled the point, although there is much controversy on the subject still ongoing.

    > Einstein favoured this, I believe, but he wasn't around to see the Bell inequalities proposed and measured.

    Now let's talk about Bell's inequalities. The very first thing one ought to notice about them is that they concern discrete entities. Here again we come against the quantization of photons, which I have discussed in the other post. A theory where light is not quantized has no relevance to Bell's inequalities and vice versa. In fact, I hold Aspect experiments as a definitive proof that light is a wave, not a particle. If you look at Aspect's setup, you'll see that it counts coincidences of polarization, rather than individual photons themselves. If you assume that photons are particles and that each one must choose a specific path, then Bell's inequalities hold, and the experiment would have validated them. Instead, the results indicate that QM's predictions are valid. QM treats the whole system as a single wavefunction of superimposed states. This is equivalent to viewing all the light coming through it as one wave. Because a wave does not choose, but rather takes all the paths, coincidence counts will be higher than predicted by the particle approach.

    There is an old example of a professor and his socks given for illustration of Bell's inequalities. If a professor's sock does not survive by washing technique A, then it can not be tested with the more rigorous washing technique B. The sock is assumed to either survive or be destroyed, just as a photon is assumed to either pass through a polarization filter or not. But because photon is a wave, it always passes through the filter, just not necessarily at the energy level of "photon". With the socks, it would be like sowing several half-destroyed socks together for test B. Bell's inequalities result from the particle approach. QM uses a wave approach but lies to itself about it. The Aspect experiments clearly demonstrate that photons are waves because the recombined half-photons become whole socks and make it to the second washing.

    Observe also, how treating photons as continuous waves explains the delayed path choice weirdness, where a photon suddenly "knows" that one path is unavailable before you yourself make the choice to make it so. Look at it from the perspective of quantized absorption and everything becomes clear.

    More about QM's treatment. In QM the photons are treated as a probability wave, which superimpose on the detector and collapse into more measurements than there ought to be. If you look at light as continuous, what does a particular value of its probability wave signify? If you have a path where a photon is with a probability of 0.3 and a path where a photon is with a probability of 0.7, what is the probability of a photon in the combined path? 0.3 + 0.7 = 1.0. This strongly suggests that the probability values are simply intensity values for the