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Is Computer Science Still Worth It?
prostoalex writes "Is it a good idea to go into Computer Science? Yes, there are certainly pending labor shortages as Indian companies outsource to the United States, but speakers of Stanford Computer Forum generally agree that it's a good career choice. From the article: 'To ensure job security, students must learn business, communication and interpersonal skills, Vardi recommended. The personal touch will become as important as technological expertise, he said. "There are jobs galore," agreed Suzanne Bigas, assistant director of the Stanford Computer Forum.'"
It's great being a CS degree holder. You can sometimes get flexible working hours, decent benefits, and an ungodly low level of sunlight in the year. Given the carcinogenic effects of solar radiation these days, coupled with toxins in diet softdrinks, it's probably best that white collar workers live and work indoors though.
Work for talented programmers will never end. But work for programmers in general will not be as common in the coming years when everyone and their dog can make a website on My Space.
Oh You POS
My degree is in Music Education, so naturally I work as a programmer these days.
I guess that means you could put me down as a "no."
Although for some people it's the best choice.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Is studying philosophy worth it?
Yes, if you love it.
its more of the fact how much you stay up-to date, look at mu aunt, she has a degree in Computer Science, and yet she is still working at the same place for the last 25 years, i dont think she can even get a job now of days, the lession of this story is ALWAYS STAY UP-TO DATE When you work with any trade
If you depend on private industry- job security to these idiots means 2 years and you're out searching again. So what if there is plenty of opportunity if you never vest into your vacation time, let alone any other benefits? So do what I did- tell private industry to go learn to program their own computers and join government instead- where at least you can be assured you'll have a job tomorrow.
After 2001, I'll never trust the stock market or private industry ever again. Driving a truck is better than doing IT work for idiots.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
No.
Do something applied.
If you enjoy it. If you're getting into it for the money you'll probably be better off getting a business or BCIS degree. So many of the CS students when I was in school just wanted to get into 'computers' and hated to code. Ridiculous degree choice under those circumstances.
and now more work for me
oh wait.. damnit
Yeah, it's still good, you just have to add that twist. Biology seems to be popular these days, business, marketing, others like that sure are helpful. Straight computer science? Well, you'll probably be just a code monkey. Learn statistics if math is your thing, we're always looking for people who can turn numbers into useful statistics, but program it to make it flexible. You don't have to have a double major, not that that ever hurts, but a minor or even a few electives.
VoIP stuff seems to be a big thing, especially in developing countries(ever wanted to travel?), learn codecs, learn how to program codecs, learn how to hack Asterisk and SipX and some of ht eothers, play with Asterisk@Home.
Oh, this isn't an Ask Slashdot? Sure looks like one.
There ARE tons of open jobs in IT, so you should have no problem finding a job if you get a Computer Science major. However, whether or not a CS major is a good idea is really dependant on what you want to do with your degree. If you want to be a software engineer and cut code exclusively, there is probably no better major than Computer Science. But if you want to go into Project Management, start your own business, become a system admin, or become a consultant, then there other options that may be better (such as an Engineering, IT Management, or Business degree)
For any technology related career though, I'd suggest taking at least 2 programming courses and 1 other computer course (or just getting a minor in Computer Science). Getting a summer internship doing development will also be helpful, even if you never want to become a programmer. The skills you learn programming can be applied to almost any technology career and will certainly look good on a resume. Even wall street firms love to hire folks with CS classes/minors, as it's typically an assurance that they're 'smart'.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
I think the answer to that question is inherently different for every person reading the question. It all depends on how you valuate disparate concepts. For me, the answer is that it is only worth going into a field if you enjoy the work in that field. I am of the mind that money should not be a driving factor for studies. Others are attempting to use a career to acheive the largest financial gains. How you define worth defines how you answer this question.
IT is a boom and bust field that will gradually decay in its value as the technologies it is based on mature.
The business cycle drives investment in IT so it should be regarded as a cyclical industry just the way any capital intensive business is. As growth in IT technologies peter out (Moore's law hockey-stick growth) inevitably flat-lines as technologies hit their limits growth will fall to the same growth as the economy as a whole. Like the railroads, utilities etc.
If you are 50 or so and are looking to make a career change IT is not a bad choice - it will probably be a sound field for at least the next 10-20 years.
But for somebody who is just entering college I think that other fields, particularly anything associated with health care are better opportunities. They will surely offer careers with better sustainability than IT.
What was that about degrees being worth the extra tuition fees because of higher wages Mr Blair? So many people are getting degrees now that they've stopped being the ticket to a good, high paying job that they used to be.
Not that I'm bitter and twisted or anything...
India outsourcing to the United States? That's, um, actually pretty funny. And good news also, since I'd like to go into a Computer Science related field, but was wary of it previously as I already have an AAS in Electrical-Mechanical Engineering courtesy of the Air Force, and it didn't seem like there was a lot of money or jobs in Computer Science anymore. If that trend is changing, I might give CompSci another look when I get out, but I'm leaning more towards Computer Forensics then IT at the moment.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
"interpersonal skills" AKA "how to be a brown nose", "Backstabbing go getter" more of a Managerial type of person...
If you can't do you teach.
If you can't teach you manage.
If you can't manage then you become a politician.
Anyone wanting a good programmer to have good social skills is doomed to failure. The reason they are good in the first place is that they don't care about the social scene directly (note: DIRECTLY)
I think there's always room for good people in CS. If you're a type who goes to Stanford/MIT/others and gets a degree in CS because you love learning about computational processes and have a natural drive and curiousty, my guess is that there are plenty of firms willing to hire you.
If, on the other hand, you want to learn CS to get a 'good job' after school, and end up going to a second-rate university where they teach you specific software instead of abstract ideas, you might not have such a good future after college.
I'm sure both types of students attend all universities CS departments, don't get me wrong. I think your attitude going into it is what matters most, if you love CS and work hard, I bet you'll be just fine. If possible, don't choose your major based on what's in fashion, do what you want.
Pls stop confusing Computer Science ie. a science of computing ( just as Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Geology are sciences of their respective disciplines ) with IT ie. Information Technology, a trade with fluctuating job prospects.
eg. The real-estate situation in the US is currently a bust - doesn't mean you should rethink becoming an architect, which is a seriously long-term proposition. However, you SHOULD rethink applying for a real-estate broker's license, since short-term is your concern.
I can't speak for other parts of the world, but in the Netherlands IT is one of the best sectors to be in. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding all the people on slashdot talking about how shitty a job in IT is. Maybe things in the states are totally different (for one thing, the wages are even higher than here in the Netherlands). But there is little reason why IT could not be a pretty good career choice. Of course, there are some things which might help you along:
* Work on your social skills. It's not accurate along the board, but many people think that every IT specialist lives in his mothers' basement. Be sociable and this prejudice might turn out to be an advantage.
* Keep on learning. It's fun but it's also an investment in yourself. In few sectors knowledge is as volatile as in IT. Make sure you keep on top.
* Find an employer that fits your personality. Don't expect flexibility from a megacorporation and don't think small businesses will be able to buy you education.
* But most of all: Make sure you're doing something you like (most of the time). A great salary is of little use if you hate the work. If you enjoy your work, you'll be able to go the extra mile which will pay for itself in the long run.
I think a CS degree would be great if you want to become a mathematician, accountant, or engineer. There are no real good jobs for those with a CS degree, but then again all degrees are crap. All a degree gives you is a piece of paper saying that you know how to learn. The other thing the piece of paper tells employers is that they can pay you shite just because they know you have school loans to pay off (ain't slavery nice, thanks master card...). Find something that you like to do, do it, if not stick with it until you can get your skill set up enough to get a better job. The "better" the job you get the less work you do, you will be going to meetings, and making sure other people do their work.
The biggest thing you want to learn from CS classes, databases, lots of databases, learn how to program. More importantly learn how to compile, learn how to learn..
Peace,
2004 graduate
A) It's a good idea to go into something you're passionate about, or even interested in.
B) I graduated recently (CSE, UC Davis) and found a job easily. It's a great market right now, it will still be decent when Bubble 2.0 bursts, and it will be great down the road, regardless of what country you hail from.
My other
You know, these "interpersonal" skills don't exist in a vacuum.
For some reason those "several candidates" you thought were good had managed to survive at their previous jobs long enough to become senior DBA's.
Before you blame other people for the problems meeting your standards, re-examine your standards and see if you understand the situation.
Particularly if you're suggesting that a business degree is more important that a computer science degree. That indicates that you don't understand the technological side of the issue. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean that they're wrong.
Do you want a senior DBA or do you want a business analyst? Or do you want both for the price of one?
It has become a joke of a degree, which is a damn shame because it was a respected degree. My advice would be to go with math degree instead and minor in CS.
Is physics worth it? I don't see a huge market for physics PhD's outside of academia. So clearly physics is a worthless pursuit.
It used to frustrate me that I didn't know how to program C decently but I rectified that starting in 2002. I was going to start by reading The Art of Computer Programming and realized how much MATH there was, and how it would be in assembly, so I did a "shortcut" and read K&R and Code Complete and did things that way. Of course, there are no real shortcuts, and the right way to do it is learning the math and the assembly language and going like that.
This is just something I want to do. I want to stand around all those code gods and be like them (in the sense of coding and skill, not necessarily everything else). There's the old cypherpunk slogan "Cypherpunks code" and one way of learning to code is to just write code, but I want to have a track where I'm doing it the right way while I'm on the second track of actually writing stuff now.
I also find biology interesting and may take a minor (or double major) in that. I don't think I'll worry about job security much with a bachelors in Computer Science and Biology. Or even a Masters. Or Phd. I think one step at a time though.
One thing though is I want to do this. I would do this even if there was no material reward. I think that is something to think about. It would be nice if I could make more money, or get a job doing less braindead stuff, but if all that happened would be that I would know enough to contribute to the Linux kernel, or some free software projects which I like, that would be enough for me. After doing mindless BS wage slave stuff all day, it's nice to go home and do my own work where I can actually do what I want, even if I make no money at it. If I could make a living doing that stuff, so much the better, but I would go crazy if all I did was cog-in-the-machine mindless nonsense all day.
Please, no -- be a lawyer!
Less supply -> higher wages. Thanks!
This CS degree making me bald?
If you're from the UK, it'd be informative if you could point that out. Also interesting is that people I know from the UK who are also Software Engineers have always said it's way better to work in the U.S. That makes me wonder whats going on in the UK!
Yeah it sucks, but I personally know the jobs are out there. Pick up what work you can, keep being interested and you will expand your knowledge beyond that of the CS grads who are just in it for money.
I think that CS, like anything, is always worth it (in more ways than one) if you are genuinely interested.
I can hear the comments now. "I don't see why I need interpersonal skills. My technicals skills should be what counts." and "My interpersonal skills are better than anyone I know, but I still don't get ahead because of politics. They say I'm an arrogant condsending misanthrope, but that's just because they're jealous of my coding skills. I work hard, but never talk to anyone because they're just so dumb. Then they screw me over. I don't get it. They're all such bastards."
Well grow up you whiney bitch. Whenever you get two people together there's "politics." It's called society. Deal with it.
I'd recommend forgetting about a CS degree, computers are on their way out.
For a degree thats always in incredibly high demand.
English.
I didn't have a clue what I wanted to be. Everything interested me, so I got a B.A. in liberal arts: majored in Eng Lit. Minored in classic Greek. Lots of history/philosophy. Got a full scholarship to grad school and got a masters in philosophy.
By this point, I thought I would be a professor. The thing is, to support myself I did computer work throughout. I finished my masters to find myself full-time employed in IT. Until I could figure it all out, I kept doing IT work and got promoted twice. I'm now a senior engineer specializing in IT security and regulatory compliance. I wear many hats in the area including policy writing.
I'm near 40 now and still waiting to find out what I'll be when I grow up....
Never had a single computer class in my life or received a certificate.
I enjoy Linux, coding & walks in the park in the evening....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
As a professional software programmer for over 20 years, I'd advise anyone who wishes to still be programming professionally in their 50's to spend a summer selling used cars. Being able to sell yourself will be much more important in the later years of your career than your technical knowledge will be.
This is really the only question you need to answer. The job market shouldn't be a big factor in your decision making. If you find computers fascinating, you will easily learn everything you need to know to land a good job, with or without a CS degree. You will also find getting the degree a very worthwhile and even fun pursuit. If not, don't bother. Even if you make it through the degree program, if you're not interested in computers you will quickly get sick of any job you find.
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Just because there are "jobs galore", doesn't mean they're jobs worth taking.
Based on the stream of migrant farm workers flowing into the US from points south, there are "jobs galore" in agriculture as well.
The issue isn't raw numbers, its ROI. Given the $10,000's now required for a 4 year degree, the course of study one undertakes now must be considered wrt whether it will lead to a reasonable return. At prevailing salaries, its not certain that CS is the best choice. Plus, given the limited shelf life of any area of CS expertise, those choosing CS also have to bear the burden of constant retraining, usually at a breakneck pace. Many other disciplines don't have such burdens (yes, things may change in medicine/law/etc., but at a much slower pace).
Keep in mind that those flogging for more CS majors are often the same folks doing everything in their power to keep wages down (e.g., Mr. Gates), or have a vested interest in pushing paying bodies through their degree programs (e.g., Ms. Bigas of Stanford).
If you really love the CS discipline, its fine...but if considered in the cold calculus of "tuition as investment", even the geekiest of CS students would be well advised to consider a dual major (or minor in some other field).
007: "Who are you?"
Pussy: "My name is Pussy Galore."
007: "I must be dreaming..."
It's a lot cheaper to get into University in the UK where the highest they can charge is £3000 (that's after a recent increase) a year. This coupled with Tony Blair trying to get more people into university means that having a degree doesn't make you stand out as much as it used to.
I'm tired of {system-,network-,db-} administration, programming, and every other trade skill getting equated with Computer Science. CS is a branch of theoretical mathematics and has very little to do with anything you can sit in front of, type into, click on, or reboot. And I don't mean this as a (serious) troll. I just hate to see the term misused, much like engineers cringe when they hear the building maintenance staff referred to as 'engineers', as in "we'll have an engineer bring some buckets up to put under that leak in the roof."
/End of Friendly Math Snob Rant
I have found there are just two ways to go.
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow. -REK, Jr.
And thats away from from the coasts where a buck goes further. Plus its still lots of fun after many years.
I would like to tell all the students out there who love computer science to pursue it, enjoy it, get a job from it, and have successful careers in it.
I would also like to tell all the students out there, that those who don't love computer science and only want the job to get money, to stay away from it, because it is those people who wreak havoc in our field. Because:
1. They are likely to have more interpersonal skills and can schmooze management into getting promotions.
2. They are more likely to cause problems once they get into management because they truly don't respect our field.
I suspect that when they say to learn "interpersonal skills" (can you actually learn those?), it is because these will help immensely with not getting your job outsourced. If your job is hunkering behind a computer banging out code, anyone with your skills can do it, anywhere. But if your job involves interacting with the marketing team, support, sales, and customers, it's much harder to outsource.
...students must learn to write cryptic code only they themselves are capable of maintaining. ;-)
Four years ago, I was determined to earn a CS degree. Up until last year, three years into my CS degree, I realized that my efforts were going to be moot. So I made the best move I could have: I changed direction and headed for a joint-major with Business.
Now, a year later, I quit University and decided to pursue my own work. I had been PHP freelancing for several years, earning enough money to put food on my plate. Two years ago, however, I was struck with a brilliant idea for a program that I would spend the next two years developing. In August, I had to make a decision: finish my final year at University and earn my degree, or pursue my business venture and see what happens.
Three months later and with a new city underneath my feet, I could not be more pleased having left University and focusing my time on my program. I felt confident enough that I could find additional work to supplement my own schedule if necessary, and recently did just this. I picked up a consultation job at a prestigious law firm based solely off my experience and personality. And if you are wondering about the program I developed -- the target audience is most definetely not the Slashdot crowd so I've elected to avoid an increased bandwidth bill and not post the link. However, the feedback I have recieved has helped solidify my decision.
In hindsight, I wish I had pursued Business from the beginning because my foundations in computer science was primarily self-taught. The food on my plate was not from something I was taught.
My advice is neither in favour of obtaining a degree nor joining the work force as a substitute to academics. Both are equally important to your current and future success. In the wake of my indecision and trepidations, I can recommend pursuing a Business degree as a joint to your Computer Science degree. You will get a solid foundations in both subjects. Business skills are almost essentially as tech skills in the technology world. You will find yourself well-rounded and able to understand different stakeholder perspectives. It is mandatory that you find extracurricular work outside of academic. This is an absolute must for anyone studying who wants to be eligible for work when they finish their degree.
The years I spent studying computer science could have been more effective elsewhere. But then again, my agenda in the technology field is different than many who study CS. I want to make money by doing my own thing. Many of my peer's wanted to play with the technology and avoid the possible applications of those technologies.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
Best advice to students is to not do anything stupid that would prevent them from working for the government. Those jobs ain't getting outsourced anytime soon.
If youre intellegent enough for a CS degree there are a score of other options available which offer better long-term career prospects for far less effort (long term I suspect most MDs put less than 50% of the time into retraining that a good IT worker does). I would advise anyone to only take CS if youre actually serious about CS academically. If not be prepared to put up with having to retrain every 2-4 years, be made unemployed at a moments notice based upon the whims of PHBs/the economy, have your salary stagnate/collapse at least once a decade, work ungodly hours if you end up with a ****** company that cant manage its sales forces promises and have an ulcer by your early to mid 30s.
Seriously, until IT has its own professional body that REQUIRES IT workers to be qualified/certificed in the same way as other professionals, its a career to steer clear of.
- You got a poor quality degree (either from an institution with no reputation, or a low 2.2 or lower classification).
- You haven't done anything interesting with your time at university (join / run any student societies, etc).
- You haven't taken the opportunity to get any work experience (most universities run summer placement programmes, if you can be bothered to sign up).
You get out of university what you put into it. If you're just there to get a piece of paper, you will just get a piece of paper and it won't be much use to you.I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Can't really speak for other countries but in canada its generally good.
p ?ppid=84&lcode=E&prov=35&gaid=9219&occ=2174&job=&s earch_key=1
You can use this website to find the trends for an occupation you wish to find info about...
http://www.labourmarketinformation.ca/
for instance....
a Programmer in Toronto (Ontario)
http://www.labourmarketinformation.ca/standard.as
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
Money Magazine and Salary.com say Software Engineering is the "Best Job" out there. However, their criteria are hardly guaranteed to be the same as yours (actually, the criteria might be the same...but the priorities probably won't). It's really all about what you like to do. If you like to write programs and solve problems, CS is great and there's money to be made (somewhere...I'm told).
It's not about what you know, it's about who you know. I don't have a degree. Not even an AA. However, I started working for a software company 5 years ago as their bitch. But I stuck with it. I worked my way up to senior tech, with government accounts all over California. Because of that, I met some great people, and now I'm the Director of Info. Tech. for a city (and the youngest department director in the County). I believe it was my ability to put two thoughts together to form an idea that people can understand, along with great people skills, that got me this job. It also doesn't hurt that I know what I'm doing. Just make sure to stay up to date with all the new advancements in your chosen field.
I think you need to work on your interpersonal skills.
Computer Science was 'worth it' in the seventies and eighties when you could only make a solid middle-class living with a BSCS and it's still 'worth it' today. You don't go into a science because you want to make lots of money, you do it because you are a scientist and have better things to do with your life than the other 90%. It always amazed me that greedhead morons were going into CS in the ninties: it was still a damn difficult ciriculum and you still didn't get the kind of long-term compensation that lawyers or MBAs got (although the entry level pay may have been slightly better).
There is lots of interesting (and, probably, profitable) stuff still to do with computers, and the job market is only going to get tighter from here out. As the living standard in China and India improve, the domestic demand for technical labor will improve as well. We have already shown that the west, with only about 1 billion people, can absorb the technical labor production of the entire world. China and India will match the western demand for technical labor when their standard of living is only a quarter that of the west. At that point, there will be no way to meet world-wide technical labor demands and the ensuing rush to snap up techs will make the .com boom look like the great depression. (either that, or the inability to meet global labor demand for tech workers will cause a collapse of the economies in China and India, which can't be very good for anyone).
just a ghost in the machine.
Many people believe they will walk out of a CS degree with a high paying and satifying job. Unfortuneately it is the institutions that sell them this prospect. It is important to remember you will more than likely still start at the bottom and have to crawl your way up. A degree is just another tick in the interviewers box. Yes it may mean the difference between getting a job or not, but it wont get you the job alone.
Real world experience is the most valuable asset. Time and time again I see graduates come out of degrees with no real knowledge that can be applied in the workforce. In other fields degrees are more important because it is harder to fake a degree than experience within the job application process. The thing is that you cant fake your experience in IT. If someone doesnt know what they are talking about then the interviewer will notice it. Thus whether you learnt your knowledge from work or books is not as important.
If I am looking for a job applicant I will take a degree into consideration as it shows the applicant has the ability to set a goal and achieve it, but when looking at candiates with more than 10 years experience it doesnt mean alot more than that.
CS degrees are great for tech know how but that is not enough in this competitive age and someone working in the right job for the same period of time will give them more knowledge with real world applications. The trick obviously is getting the right job.
CompSci profs who will be out of work if not enough students elect compsci as a major.
I've been going to college for about 14 years now and working as an IT programmer for almost 10, and I can say confidently that a CS degree is definitely still worth the effort.
1. If you plan to graduate and pursue a career in IT, no other degree gives you a solid programming background and is more respected by IT companies. Very few self taught programmers REALLY get what OOP is, but if you pay attention and eat your vegetables you might just figure it out in college.
2. If you plan to continue in the educational sector, a CS degree is a great lead in to graduate programs involving AI, genetic algorithms, linguistics, etc. Even a business masters tacked on to a CS degree can make for a great career.
That said, there are MANY problems with the courses taught at many universities.
I've seen colleges teach FORTRAN and C++ using VI as an editor, PASCAL on a VAX, and Borland C++ on a Win 95 machine. You won't find any jobs at Monster.com with these skills.
Some colleges are finally starting to teach Java or C#, but university curriculum changes move VERY slowly.
The good thing about the field is that it is never too late to jump in. Technology moves so fast that my 10 year old son is just as far behind the times as I am...
whoops, he is now slightly ahead...
Anyway as a system administrator I get to see all the cool things that I don't know and never knew I couldn't live with out..
dang there he goes again, if I hurry I might break even by the end of the day...
Wow a new version of SQL, SharePoint, LiveCommunication server and SP 3 for Vista came out today, maybe my son (my new boss) can take some time to train me...
So, the way it works is India outsources jobs to the US, because there are shortages in India, and the US outsources to India, because there are shortages in the US, so India oursources those jobs to the US, because there are shortages in India, so the US outsources to India, because there are shortages in the US, so India oursources those jobs to the US, because there are shortages in India, so the US outsources to India, because there are shortages in the US, so India oursources those jobs to the US, because there are shortages in India,is that the way it works?
Meanwhile the EU and Russia and China kick our asses, since the only people in the US with jobs are the outsourcers and the people who scrub toilets for the outsourcers.
I am so looking forward to this future.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
CS degrees are helpful but certainly not required. In 20 years of hiring and firing IT folks, I don't think I see much of a correlation between their degrees and their performance. Performance has lot more to do with intelligence, attitude, work ethic, curiosity, and experience. The CS degree does get your resume in the door however. Without it, you better have some great experience.
That said, I'd say that some of my worst hires have been CS Masters and PhD holders. They've been way too theoretical, detached from reality, over-perfectionists, etc. Those guys are probably better off staying in academia or advanced research groups. Stick with the Bachelors.
Another underperforming group has been degree holders in MIS or Data Processing, or whatever it's being called. These are the degrees for people that want to go into IT but don't want to do the math and theory that CS requires. In my experience they make good sysadmins but mediocre programmers and engineers, and terrible managers.
My recommendation would be to get a BS in CS. Don't take many more CS courses than are required to major in it. Make sure you do take courses on project management, user-interface design, development lifecycles, and relational databases. These are very practical courses that will help you in the long term, but some of the more theoretical CS programs may frown on them (my college didn't even offer them when I was there).
Then take some micro- and macro-economics, intro operations management, and intro statistics. Squeeze in introductory business law if you can. That should give you enough of business background, although it would be great if you could take a part-time job for a few months in some (non-IT) company's operations to give you some experience with what users go through.
I'd also take some basic engineering courses too. Not just for the knowledge; I think they're better at giving you the problem solving mentality and skills than CS is. I'd recommend intro to discrete digital electronics, basic computer architecture, and intro to computer networking courses. Those three have been very helpful over the long term, giving me a solid foundational understanding of what's going on behind the scenes, even though my career really has nothing directly to do with them.
And play with IT stuff. Check out new technologies. Learn new languages just for the heck of it. Stay current.
Most importantly, have fun, take some classes completely unrelated to the above in subjects you like or are interested in, and hang out with some non-geeks. Everything people say about techies needing good interpersonal and communication skills is true. As technology advances and development (slowly) becomes more 'user-friendly' (or easier for non-techies to learn), being able to communicate effectively is what will keep your job from being outsourced, or even worse, replaced by a computer!
The concept of an "IT" job is way too vague to be useful. IT has long since split into various disciplines (eg. hardware guy, code monkey, dba), and now those are subdividing even more. While there isn't that much difference between being an oracle dba vs. a mysql dba vs. a mssql dba, there is a big difference between being a java/c#/c++ coder vs. being a site builder, and a huge difference between being a site builder vs. a dba. The differences in these fields are reflected in what CS (or related) degree (or job skills) one might want to pursue. The real question(s) ought to be "Is Still Worth It?"
Yeah, and you can become a particle physicist in your spare time too.
Well actually you can, it's just rather unlikely that anyone would hire you, without the backing of some sort of accredited school saying that you know it. In terms of knowledge, you could know the exact same things, you'd just lack a piece of paper vouching for you.
There's nothing magic about going to school; colleges these days aren't repositories of secret information, released only once you've sworn an oath of allegiance to the guild lords; you can find out most of what's being taught in any college class by buying the book. (In graduate classes or more participatory classes, it could be harder; but I'm thinking about bachelors-degree physics and mathematics.) In large universities, many classes aren't even taught by professors anyway; just by TA's (slightly more advanced students) reading from someone else's notes or from the book.
The reason the un-degreed student isn't worth anything, is because most people don't have the attention span or discipline to actually learn that way. Therefore, if you said that you'd spent a few years months sitting in your room, studying particle physics, and done all the experiments with equipment you built yourself in your basement, and now knew as much as someone who'd learned it while studying for a degree, I'd probably not believe you. It's not that it's not possible, it's just not likely.
Degrees exist because they're a way of verifying that somebody probably knows something, without actually testing them. The more esoteric the subject, the more important the diploma becomes, because it's harder and harder to verify that someone actually knows their stuff.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Is this supposed to suggest that we're somehow "done" with computer science? Application is great and all, but it has basis in constantly evolving theory, just like in any basic science.
Don't be fooled. Application is important, but try doing your physics homework without understanding the underlying theory and see how far you get. If you want to be respected in the industry, and if you want to find a lifetime in computer technology fulfilling, get a degree in computer science.
If your career aspiration is "high paid code monkey," then ignore this post.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
I was sure I wanted to be a programmer/computer scientist when I was a sophomore in high school. After taking the classes, I decided I didn't want to really do that all my life (in fact, I didn't want to do it at all) and switched to a math degree. Math opens up some more options since it is arguably the most broad degree you can get in the sciences.
My advice would be to use caution when choosing a major and then decide what you want to do after you've sampled a bit of everything.
Interpersonal skills and technical skills are mutually exclusive. A person with one by definition doesn't have the other. Someday the politics will adjust to account for that- but not yet.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
You're blaming Tony Blair for your choosing to major in a competitive field? And since when was an undergraduate degree the ticket to the cushy highpaying job of your dreams? Kids these days. Think a few years at college is the same as experience and should be looked at as such. Just out of college == entry level. Take the job you think is below you and start getting some experience.
What will enrich you? What will make you grow? What will form your mind in a manner that will be condusive to a lifetime's development?
What is your passion (other than human flesh and financial gain)?
Wherein lies your natural curiosity?
Are computers a means to an end or is there intrinsic beauty?
Are you naturally curious as to the workings of the universe, philosphy or merely in pursuit of a first-class ticket to a PHB's personal entourage?
Can you tell that I listen to too much BBC Radio 4 and watch to many TV period dramas? Jane Austen and Charles Dickens have a lot to answer for.
Stick Men
I still maintain that Computer Science/Technology is an awful field or career to go into. Now I'll admit, I had it a little easier since I studied up more so on the technical aspect and not networking/IT. So while IT jobs were being taken by people in India, you still needed a physical person in America to say, fix your PC or upgrade it.
I was wrong. For every 1 job that opens there are like hundreds of potential candidates in any city. And that's just assuming you meet their requirements. So just to get a job repairing PC's, you got waltz in and put on the dog and pony show. I see so many companies that hire people who might be average skilled, yet they are more "people oriented", so guys who can chum up the boss next to the water cooler get the job while the really skilled guys who know their trade but are say, more of an individual or more reserved, end up jobless.
That's just for the jobs you qualify for. Right out of college, I found no jobs that I had "experience" for. Every job I found, that I met the other requirements on, was always a dead end since they wanted 3-5 years experience. Sure there were the occasional few jobs at "entry" level but that's like dropping a turkey leg in a feeding frenzy, it's gone within seconds by the dozens apon dozens of other guys gunning for the same job.
So where's that leave me? Finished school three years ago, with the knowledge for an entry level job at a variety of computer technical related areas, that has been unemployed since. I know in the end that looks bad cause "gaps" on your resume supposedly look bad to employers but what are you gonna do? Spend $30,000 on an education, then work at Walmart in the mean time while you job hunt? Sorry but that's just too damn counter productive. Granted I am living off my family but they don't mind and they also agree it's pretty damn silly to spend so much money to get a job in the first place, then not be able to find one.
I'd recommend, another field. Something that needs people, all the time. Nurses, Doctor's, Lawyers, a really good Mechanic, etc Something that you really never can have enough of (assuming you end up good at what you do).
Aw Frell this
If your experience is a problem, then the problem is that you didn't make any effort to get any experience.
There are a gazillion projects on the web that you could jump into and get real world experience. There are a gazillion projects that you could do on your own to help round out your resume. There are thousands of internships and work study programs that would help you...
Probably the easiest and most interesting thing to do is start a project with the goal of making it a business. Even if the business fails, just the trying can be look really good during an interview.
Just my two cents... but as a recent college graduate with a Computer Science degree, I had more (very nice) job offers for work as an IT professional in various capacities than I could accept.
:-)
Don't be afraid of the major. Just be afraid of trapping yourself in out-of-date technologies. And as a word of warning, that tends to be what's in the classroom. It's on your shoulders to stay up-to-date.
Of course, if you post your questions here, the odds of that are good already
IMO if any of you are considering CS--don't do it.
Major in math, minor in CS. This opens you up to many many more fields for grad school. Math, physics, finance & insurance, economics, statistics, engineering and on and on..
If you want to code, I'd advise against CS too. Take a software development or engineering degree. CS covers a lot of theory you won't ever need. Sure, its nice to know algorithms and compiler details once in a blue moon or if you are a systems-level programmer.
For the rest of programming (.NET, J2EE, whatever) you simply need to know some good programming practices and experience with the languages (as well as some design pattern/structural abilities).
Still, go ahead and consider CS. It is a great degree--but you don't need it to be a coder. I know many well paid programmers who write business apps (J2EE) and pull in big money. These same guys couldn't tell me the difference between quick and merge sorts let alone write their own. These guys have been coding 10+ years...
If you want to go into computation or have an interest in the inner details and want to learn more about algorithms, OS and compilers, hardware, etc. while still knowing how to code--then CS is a balanced program for you.
This is just a test.
Stanford University is in the business of selling Computer Science education. Thus I listen to their point of view with skepticism. Of course they are going to hype the field. Do you think they are going to come out and say to avoid Computer Science like the plague?
Of course if you have enough money to be schooled at Stanford then maybe you won't have a problem finding work. But what about average middle class person who only has the means to attend the local university?
I've lived in the trenches and have seen so many bright programmers/developers laid off or chewed up and thrown out for cheaper labor that I do not believe the hype. I can only go by what I've seen, and it hasn't been pretty.
If you study computer science because it could land you a very nice paying job then you didn't do your homework because if you had gone into finance and securities you would be making 2x-4x on wall street.
Computer science is still a great foundation to begin your career. CS provides a strong foundation in analytical thinking, problem solving, and logic. CS coures usually require a team project so it tries to build into the cirriculum team work.
The biggest problem with computer science is that you do not learn enough about a single area to be a specialist. Like so many other degrees, CS will require a graduate level coureswork to give you that edge.
My personal experiences is that I don't use my degree, but I use the soft skills that I learned through my journey to obtain my CS.
The moral of the story is that don't expect your degree to be your only pillar of strength. If that's all you are counting then you are not dynamic enough and should not get a well paying job.
This is true no matter what industry you are in. CS is not a mythical industry where the laws of other industries don't apply. A degree guarantees you nothing, and a CS degree is only as valuable as the person who wields it. With persistence, intelligence, and dedication, a person can succeed in any sector. Think about all the millionairs who made their fortune outside of IT.
Do what you love, and do it better than anybody else. That's how you guarantee job security. You'll notice a degree doesn't play into what I just said, what so ever.
see subject. for the last time dont mix CS with other random subjects. Please read this carefully folks
CS!= IT (sysadmin, netowrk admin, db admin etc)
CS!= programming
CS!= help desk
saying CS is not worth it because of outsourcing means you have no idea what people study in CS. You probably shouldnt study CS anyway. What does deciding to study something like computaional theory, OS design, AI, scalable protocol design, algorithmic analysis, etc. etc. have to do with jobs coming or going out of the country.
Those "Cs majors" who have no idea what i am talking about, i wrote this post on a turing machine. Go out and buy one just make sure you have a high density tape those double density ones just plain suck.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
I'm a math major myself, but feel the need to warn you that CS is, in fact, practical mathematics. Much of the logic and discrete mathematics (such as boolean algebra) that make up computer science were invented long before computers by DeMorgan, Babbage, and others. Now, however, we actually use it- and it, in fact, has everything to do with anything you can sit in front of, type into, click on, or reboot. The fact that the end user doesn't need to know how it works is unimportant. It's like saying that civil engineering has nothing to do with buildings, bridges, or roads- after all, the people driving on a road or using a building don't need to know civil engineering. Yes, a network admin is not likely to be a computer scientist- but the equipment and software he uses exists because of Math/CS people.
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
then the answer is probably no. Are you just looking for a job or are you looking for a fulfilling career that will carry you through retirement. Are you looking for the intellectual stimulation that working with like minded people will get you? or are you just looking for a "job" that you are guessing will make you comfortable. No matter what you do with your life, do something that you like doing, that way if your career choice doesnt make you rich or famous (eg. the industry tanks for a few years) you will still be going to do a job every day that you like doing.
That's the problem, the job I 'think is below me' requires experience...
When I was in school, I always ignored the recommendations to take more business classes. It's all common sense, right? Looking back, I wish I had listened. I definitely was playing catch-up for a while there. Even taking one class would familiarize yourself with a good chunk of the terminology.
A career is going to take up the bulk of your time for the bulk of your life. You damn well better like what you do. If you do, if you really enjoy thinking about CS problems, then do it. You'll have energy and passion, which usually mix with experience to form competence, and that leads to money.
Everyone told me not to go into CS, that it was dead, when I graduated from High School in 1992. When I got my CS Degree in 1996, everyone was scrambling to get into this dot-com thing. Then, four years later, everyone was getting out again. Don't make career decisions based on fashions and trends like this.
If what you enjoy is actually just making money, and that's a perfectly fine thing to enjoy (if not really geeky), go into business. Minor in CS, and then become a project manager with an aspiration of management. Lots of room for business people, particularly ones who actually can understand the technology, and they get paid well too.
If you just want to be lazy, and do the minimal work to get the maximal money - forget about it. You'll be mediocre at whatever you do. If you're lucky, you can get a soul-crushing job, blend into the background, and collect a paycheck. Soul-crushing CS work pays better than average, but damn, you've made a serious mistake if you're going this route.
I'll reiterate the formula, even though it's obvious: Passion leads to Competence leads to Money. It's very hard to be competent at something you don't care about, and the odds of making money if you're not competent go way down. Some passions are harder to find regular work in than others, but if that's what you want, that's what you'll be best at, so go for it. There's almost nothing as awful as being bad at your job.
-- Kate
Get a degree in business management, psychology, economics, engineering, biology, communications, basically anything but computer science and take compsci classes as a minor.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
First, if you're in it to make money or you're looking for job security, go look somewhere else. There's no shortage, and hiring and firing is volatile and "bursty". Be prepared to live beneath your means and go for months without a paycheck. A lot of this work is going overseas, no matter what they're telling you. Speak Hindi or Mandarin? Even if you're one of those who grew up writing assembler when everyone else was talking about what was on TV last night, there are some things I'd suggest you think about. First, most companies these days monitor every single packet that goes out on their network, even if they say they're not. They are, they all are. What do you think about privacy issues? Do you think you're bland enough to avoid getting noticed? And then there's the cube farms - do you like smelling and hearing your coworkers? Do you like conformity, and find herd behavior reassuring? At least with blue collar jobs like truck driving, etc, there's nobody peering over your shoulders and reading every single personal thought you're sending out. Mainly because there's no internet access, but frankly I'd rather have no internet access than have an connection that's being watched by my boss' boss and his lackey. And most of the monitoring they do is all up-front as well. And the industry is maturing too. Not as many opportunities to do things that are truly creative.
Exactly, I could set out to learn all of Einstein's theories and laws (bear with me it's just an example) and go out there and do it, think I've done it 100% correctly, but when I do my calculations to prove that E really does equal MC squared, I get something like 2.718281828... My point is, whether you know Computer Science or not, if you don't have proof (read college education) that this stuff was at least presented to you properly, odds are that you'll have a tough time finding someone willing to pay you...
Big companies have so much overhead when it comes to hiring people, that they'll usually just throw out any resume that doesn't say "degree"
The moral of this story is that if you really want a career in the Computer Sciences, then eventually you're going to need a degree. On the other hand, if you just like to program, pick up a book and start programming...just don't expect to make the big bucks like you used to be able to...
I teach introductory CS at the University of Washington. In our course we scan through the IMDB top 250 movies, examine historical popularity of babies' names, search for codons and amino acids in DNA sequences, parse maps and topological data, compute weather stats, analyze Myers-Briggs personality testing data, and solve other exciting problems.
Best of all, there are still a ton of great jobs waiting for graduates with computer science degrees at exciting companies. UW's students routinely end up at Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Nintendo, and other great places. CS jobs pay great salaries compared to most other fields! Most of the grads I keep in touch with are living very well at a young age.
Go check out UW's computer science videos on YouTube, which talk about what this field is, and follow several women in our department as they go through a day in their lives at work after graduating:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=UWCSE
- Don't bother, its not useful, take $X instead.
- I was a CS major; but it sucked, so now I'm a $Y instead.
- We can't hire enough CS majors
- We've hired CS majors, but they sucked, so now we only hire $Z
- CS is too theoretical
- Who needs a degree anyway, I taught myself how to program in $P, and now my life is perfect.
- CS != programming, so unless you want to be an academic, don't bother.
While these points are all valid facets of a rather rough diamond, there are some other overlooked sides as well. When your CS profs were making you study the Traveling Salesman Problem and fifty different ways of sorting in O(n lg n) time, the ultimate goal wasn't to teach you how to code TSP, MergeSort, or Dijkstra's Semaphores. The goal of a good CS program, whether from Stanford or your local community college is to teach the theory of computation. Specifically, how to recognize the common patterns that exist in problems, and how to solve those problems using a variety of well known techniques. In short, the ultimate goal of a good CS program isn't to create programmers who can write code in some specific language, or use some specific operating system, or use a particular vendors router. The goal is to create individuals who can reach into their experience to identify existing solutions to similar problems, use sound engineering principles to implement those solutions, and to communicate those solutions to others in precise scientific languages. With more training (advanced degrees) or experience one hopes that instead of relying on existing patterns, we can develop new solutions to problems using sound scientific methods for discovery; and analyze the soundness of those results. Computer Science doesn't just allow us (here I mean humanity) to make statements about a particular machine or language; it allows us to make statements about the Universe. That is what makes us a science, a discipline separate from physics, math, or philosophy. Consider the situation where you are tasked to develop a solution to a problem. Without Computer Science, you can only say "I can't solve this problem." If this is your response to me, as an employer, my response is "Then, you're fired, I'll find someone else who can." With Computer Science, your response can be "I can't solve this problem, and I can prove that no one else can either." That is a very different place to be. I see many of our freshman walk into our CS 1 (and for the 66% who remain into our CS 2) classes, and are stunned to find out that CS isn't like their Cisco or Windows certification they had in high school. It is not just writing programs. They find themselves lost when they discover that we aren't going to teach them VB and Windows server and Word. So, after a short battle, a trip to their advisor, and a visit to the registrar's office, they typically go off to Business Info Systems (MIS). Not that I want a smack down with Info. Systems people, but their goal is more applied, and technology specific. For some of our students, it is a better fit, and we are all much better for it. To conclude my wanton rant, I will add that we, as a discipline, do a terrible job at portraying to society what it is that we do an who we are. Even my family has no clue what it is that I do as a computer scientist. They think I'm just the ultimate tech support guy. The fact that more than 50 years after the discipline was created, we are still having arguments about what it is, is telling in and of itself. Is CS worth it? Yes. Without it, computing would never happen. Imagine the performance of computer systems without pipelining and branch prediction; concealed concurrency and multi-processing; O(n lg n) sorts and the TSP; and all of the other innovations that make today's technology not only possible but usable. Is CS for everyone? No.Not as much, I don't think. I would rather have Software Engineers who can pull their weight at every step in the software life cycle. From my (limited) experience, CS is focused on implementation and (to some extent) maintenance. SE takes requirements gathering, design, test planning, implementation, and maintenance and puts it into a nice pretty package. But that's not to say we don't need CS. We do - these people have the theory needed to develop the next big idea - a new language to make everything easier or a new design pattern to help solve problems. But even those in CS and IT need to have some experience in Software Engineering. My final thought: Everyone going into a "programming" style field must know Software Engineering. However, we need people who are good at all points in software life cycle.
--Thomas J. Owens
I should bloody well hope so. I'm apply to Cambridge -- I don't want to waste precious time or money getting a degree that will be useless. My father always warned me that if I went into computing it would instantly disappear and the next big thing would take its place, leaving me helpless. Well, it hasn't happened yet, it'd better not do it in the next decade either! Also: Would it be more or less beneficial to go for something like Computer Engineering or Graphic and Video Game Design, a more specialised field, for one's first degree or better to decide a speciality until later?
games journalism blog
Yes, I read TFA.
Do they mean actually computer *science* or IT? Does the article mean that it's a good idea to get a BSCS? Or that it's a good idea to be a programmer?
Jobs galore? What kind of jobs?
The article is so vauge that I just don't get the point.
IMO: a BSCS is as expensive and difficult as an engineering degree, but as worthless a degree in libral arts. Yes, there are plenty of crap jobs in IT; but you would do *much* better to go into a real profession like medicine, law, or engineering. The late 90s are over, IT is back to being the dogs that everybody kicks around.
If, on the other hand, you want to go to trade school, go to trade school. Universities are not a place to learn practical job skills. My databases class was not "Database programming" in the sense that you picture it. It was "How to design and implement a relational database". Practical? No. I have never since implemented an RDBMS. Useful? Yes. It helped me understand what the hell was going on when I typed SELECT blahdy blah FROM bladhy blah and why it's so damn slow (or fast or whatever). No amount of learning SQL will provide that insight.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Something that a lot of programmers just don't get. Maybe comp.sci graduates would understand that better, they bloody well should if they've been educated properly.
Deleted
All this from a "business alliance"? Wow, I'd have never expected that....
~
I got an AS in programming and an AS in system administration last year. I've been working in the field (same job, they paid my way) for the last seven years. After demoing Vista, though, I'm leaving. In January I'm enrolling in music school and am leaving computers alltogether. There's no money in music, but I'd rather do that than deal with Vista.
Funny, I can spend my day writing a well-architected C++ OS library and then go out and bag the cute checkout girl. I must be superhuman or something. Or maybe you're just wrong. Go spend some time at a bar (learn to deal with shady assholes, identify good people, and have fun at the same time), get friends that know nothing about computers (learn to talk about something else), and a girlfriend that likes making you hang out with her family (learn to avoid touchy subjects and make people enjoy hanging out with you even when you'd rather be just about anywhere else). Learn by doing, those three things will teach you fast.
Of course, I still try to not interact with anyone for a while if I've been marathon coding. For about 20 minutes after, I'm a little off.
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
I have a CS degree. I've got a high paying job. I found out I'm actually being paid way below average for my profession and location. I'm looking for another better job. There are plenty of them available, and they pay a lot. The key to being successful at CS is twofold. One, don't suck. Lots of people get CS degrees, but they actually don't give a crap about software. The people in college who code in their spare time for fun are the ones who succeed. The rest end up handling tech support calls. The second trick is to not insist on living somewhere crappy. You pretty much have to go to a major metropolitan area to get a job. You can't sit in hicksville and complain there aren't any programming jobs.
One other trick to being successful as a software engineer is to learn technologies in high demand. If you learn Ruby on Rails your chances of finding a hot job are pretty low. You might find work at a startup here and there, but that's about it. If you learn the J2EE platform, relational databases and all the associated stuff you are almost guaranteed to find a high paying job. Go look around on job sites, pretty much everyone is looking for Java Enterprise developers, but the supply is way low.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Not sure anything I said had to do with computational linguistics. Must be that DeVry education messing things up again.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
So if by crappy you mean design, I don't think a degree in computer science will help. If you mean crappy as in functionality, a degree in computer science might help.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein
If you intend to live in a small city take an IT degree like Information Science or Information Technology. If you live in a larger city with half decent software companies go with a degree in Software Engineering. Computer Science is deeply theoretical, the type of work you will get after a CS degree will be severely disappointing if you really enjoyed the degree. If you do take a degree in IS or IT and find it morbidly boring, consider a career change or go into academia. You might do a CS degree and get a sweet research job if you are really lucky, but here in Australia your chances are slim. I live in a small city (by international standards) in Australia. I finished a degree in CS with first class honours nearly two years ago. I had no trouble getting a job (and another after that) which paid great money, but I've been heavily depressed with the lack of challenge in my work and lack of skill in my co-workers (most of whom got an ordinary mark in a CS degree or have one of the afore mentioned IT degrees). The lack of skill means there is no enthusiam to author elegant, well engineered software. As a result I'm trying to get back to uni and continue my research on finding genetic markers for disease in micro-array data. I could move to a bigger city with the possibility of a better job but I don't want to gamble any more years (esp. considering it will take at least 3 to get a PhD).
... because once you master discrete mathematics, you're {s, e, t}. Careful though, because if you don't pay attention and concentrate on what you're learning, you'll end up with Ø.
Sorry... couldn't resist. On a more serious note, I started on the BSCS path at Virginia Tech over a decade ago and had to stop a few months into my sophomore year. Now I'm enrolled in ASU's BSCS program after not doing a lick of calculus for 10 years, and the math is kickin' my arse. It's true what they say: if you don't use it, you lose it. My advice for aspiring CS gurus is definitely "stick with it once you start." Picking up the pieces years later to continue your education can be a little mindblowing.
I'm actually quite comfortable w/ my IT career. I've been self-employed since 2002, and I've done everything from custom programming to network administration and project management. Picking up my CS degree is something I decided to do because I want to do it, not because I need to do it to get a better job. For me, CS is still worth it because I want to take my programming and software engineering skills to the next level. I've been programming since I was 8 years old, and I feel like I've hit a plateau in my programming skillset. The one thing I want to develop from my CS studies is how to put all of the little pieces I've learned over the years together so I can contribute to the development of larger, more complex software projects. Perhaps I'll even try to start cranking out some Linux Kernel modules or something.
-- Stu
/. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
Having done my B.S. in Physics (with an EE 'minor' focus), I say a confident 'perhaps'. I graduated in '94, and had zero success finding a job outside of folding boxes in warehouses for several years. I had scores of interviews, and my degree was always met with "Wow! Physics! That's impressive! So...what is that exactly?"
:-D.
The average person/manager/HR had always heard of physics, knew it was hard by reputation and thus avoided it during thier own schooling, and so never had enough knowledge of what the degree entailed to make a hiring decision based on it. If it comes down to equal experience between two candidates, the more obscure education will always lose, especially a 'generalist hard science' like physics. I actually had one company hire me to fix broken PCs once, not because I could, but so they could say that they had a "Computer Physicist" on staff
I got a foot-in-the-door job eventually as a tech in a large company, and worked my way up from the inside to become a full-fledged design engineer. I successfully petitioned the company to retroactively treat my non-ABET accredited Physics degree as equivalent to a full ABET engineering degree as far as pay-scale and responsibility.
I loved the physics education, and honestly feel that it was effectively a more valuable engineering education than most straight engineering degrees would have been. But it has been a mighty hard road struggling through a lot of shitty jobs to reach the point where I can now rely on my experience in my career, and no longer have the "degree monkey" on my back.
Do what you love, and if you love the pure sciences then I recommend doing so. In my experience, though, physics (along with chemistry, astronomy, geology, biology) are near impossible to get jobs with based purely on the degree. You'd better damn well have some internships or other experience under your belt upon graduating!
----- And all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks, with one word...UNLESS.
People are starting to notice that traditional Computer Science curriculum doesn't match the job market or peoples expectations.
Traditional Computer Science has a place, but it isn't in IT.
Many people applying for jobs in the IT industry with a CS degree are finding out that employers want more than just a CS degree. Knowing how to write a good compiler is great if you work for a company that creates programming languages, but it's not very useful if you're working for an ecommerce company.
I think we're starting to see a shift away from Computer Science. In its place are new and more specialized programs that are tailored to meet the demands of today's job market.
With that said there will always be a need for Computer Scientists, just like there will always be a need for Physicists. The amount of people who become Computer Scientists will be limited to those perusing research or academic careers.
Here in Maine for example one of our public universities has been building up alternative curriculum for computer science for a number of years. See http://www.cs.umfk.maine.edu/ for details. The site is a bit sparse at the moment... it is my understanding that a student is working on it. Keep in mind that this is a smaller university (only about 1,200 students enrolled).
Please, don't enroll in CS courses. That way my salary goes up, and I win. :P
No, it's never been worth it. If you are trying to decide what to do, and think that maybe you'll try programming--just save us all a lot of time and effort and do something else.
How come you never see people saying "Should I go into Painting", or "Maybe I'll try Music as a career". When it comes to careers that are art, including programming, If you don't KNOW that's what you are going to do, then you're just not going to do it well enough to make anyone happy.
When you wonder why virtually all software is buggy, full of delays, poorly designed and shoddily implemented--it's generally because someone is doing a job rather than creating art.
So then this is one of those cases where "if you have to ask, the answer is NO".
I'm currently a freshman Computer Science student at Western Michigan University. My interest started when I was eleven, designing web sites, and my real passion now is programming - I love to do it. I'm starting to think that I should be looking at other schools now that offer me a more related curriculum such as a Software Engineering degree. What do you think about this and where can I find more information on these type of schools that are around in my area.
holy crap... I want to have only had to pay the US equivelant of £3000... That's just shy of $5000... I've had to pay at least as much as $10k for a years education here in the US... and I didn't go to a particularly expensive school... God... My SO went to a bussiness institute for her 2 year degree and even that cost her nearly $20k...
Want to pay back my student loans for me...? I don't really want to owe money til I'm 50....
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
What you are describing exists, it is called a trade school, i.e., a place where you go to learn at least the minimum fundamentals of going out into the world and practicing your trade, actually accomplishing something productive. The ones they have now are sort of what is needed, but not exactly, but the idea is similar.
And I would agree. Perhaps it is time to revisit the notion of a "college degree" as opposed to "learning all the skills you need to go get a good job", which is really what most people entering college really want. The *system* is setup to sell them a degree, but reality demands practical skills. With the prices of colleges now...it is something to consider. I have seen it many,many times here on slashdot where people who actually have the skills are gainfully employed, whereas a lot of guys seem to be struggling, even with a "degree" in...whatever.
Maybe just a meme shift, stop thinking of IT as being boss-class white collar job and look at it as something else, blue collar with a tie on and your fingernails stay clean?
And, believe it or not, diversity in CS is on the rise; it isn't a white boys' club any more.
What does that have to do with anything?
Then perhaps you need to jettison your ego; you don't seem to have the CV to back it up.
You do seem to be in a catch-22, I am guessing the parent was right by saying your qualification was below average. You can't get a graduate job, which expects a good degree but no experience, but you can't get a normal job which expects experience, but not necessarily a hot qualification.
Your only option is to start bagging experience pro bono. Try asking for work experience, for free, at companies. Expand your own horizons and skills while you are doing it; I learnt Ruby for kicks a couple of weeks ago, and it's something I can put on the application form.
Having graduated from Bristol Uni this year, none of my friends have had any difficulty getting jobs (if they wanted them). The jobs are out there, you just have to look harder and/or make more concessions I think.
This question encapsulates much of what I find unfortunate about today's society. Screw the job market and screw your estimation of the worth of a specific college degree. Education in itself should be praised. If everyone in society was required to at least take an introduction to the analytical skills presented in any technical program, we would be vastly better off. This is easily demonstrated by the reasoned pragmatism of engineering graduates (or anyone with an analytical background) Considering and measuring options that include externalises and long term planning are abilities that are seriously deficient among the majority of the populace simply for lack of education. ...
i'm a degreed engineer AND i learned to program to achieve business related results.
i learned to set up my programming environment on multiple OSes. i learned postgresql when there were very few docs (took me 30 days to get it up and running under cygwin) and set up my database tables.
i've set up a very useful program for the company that contracted me for my engineering skills.
i have nothing but respect for people who do things and do them well.
i don't care if they are engineers, computer scientists, programmers, admins, technicians, assemblers or bathroom cleaners.
i respect quality, not a degree.
there are some worthless CS folks - and i'm being nice. there are some fantastic programmers.
your problem is that you want credit for what you have already done so you don't have to keep earning respect.
i respect those who keep earning respect day in and day out - and who give respect to other people.
go ahead and take issue with the definition, which is valid. but don't slam the people. i'd take a quality "code monkey" over a less than worthless masters in CS suit who thinks he's already done his work getting his degree.
Current CS employment is not exactly science.
Company A writes a program that does X.
Company B wants to also do X in their program, but wants to own their own source.
So company B writes another program that also does X.
So does companies C and D.
And when A,B,C and D go away, so do these programs.
In fact most of current "Computer Science" is this type of re-invention and not Science all ( in the sense of sharing ideas, getting peer review, and refining ideas, algorithms and theories.
Rather, the computing industry is about squatting ideas like compression, or even click-to-buy. Where the golden idea is not a great invention, but one that makes money with no effort.
Current copyright and patent law created this situation.
Open source projects come closer to science, as ideas are shared and peer review.
But if copyright and patent law actually were re-tooled to encourage innovation an progress, open source would not be needed.
Excellent post. I'm studying Computing and IT at the University of Surrey, where over 90% of graduates get a job a year after graduating. It's one of the best universities in the country for Computing graduate employment. The main reason for this is that they run a professional training year which is a massive boost to your employability. If you can't get a computing job in the UK, blame yourself or your uni, not the subject itself, because there's plenty of jobs out there.
Funny, I can spend my day writing a well-architected C++ OS library and then go out and bag the cute checkout girl.
Good for you- to a certain point. Though I doubt that a REAL guru would agree with you on the "well-architected" part, since you didn't spend every waking moment perfecting it.
. I must be superhuman or something. Or maybe you're just wrong. Go spend some time at a bar (learn to deal with shady assholes, identify good people, and have fun at the same time), get friends that know nothing about computers (learn to talk about something else), and a girlfriend that likes making you hang out with her family (learn to avoid touchy subjects and make people enjoy hanging out with you even when you'd rather be just about anywhere else). Learn by doing, those three things will teach you fast.
And in the mean time your computer skills will rot- you'll lose track of the bleeding edge and soon lose your job to the next bright up-and-coming young man who doesn't go to bars and doesn't waste time with a girlfriend.
Of course, I still try to not interact with anyone for a while if I've been marathon coding. For about 20 minutes after, I'm a little off.
If you were REALLY marathon coding, you'd be off for two days just catching up on the last month's worth of sleep.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I agree with pretty much everything you have said here.
/. about their shitty jobs have to stop blaming the industry/company/country, and start looking harder. These people scared me while I was taking my degree, now I have a hard time listening to what they say without giggling, or wondering exactly how poor their degree was.
/. ?
I think a lot of people confuse "degree" with "job ticket", which isn't the truth. I think the people who shout loudest on
I moved to New Zealand after I graduated, and found a job in the top floor of a high-rise looking out over the sea in three weeks. Granted, the skills shortage here is absolutely dire, but if NZ can do it economy-wise, it can be expected in most other Western countries. None of my friends who graduated this year along with me have had trouble; one is even working for Industrial Light and Magic, not because she did amazing in her degree, but because she had the drive and ambition to make it happen.
I highly recommend anyone who is still finding it tough to take an English class. My job here was posted 6 times, and they kept turning people down, even though they knew the skills shortage was so bad, because the standard of English, written and verbal, was so low. If you get some English skills, stop blaming your "bad social skills" or whatever other crutch you are leaning on to explain why you never get past the interview stage, you can get great jobs. Your resume will shine in and of itself.
And yes, you do have to move. I sympathise with people who are bound to their hometown by family or whatever. In which case, you gotta play the economy you are in. Google are not going to move to Iowa for you. You're going to have to accept the cards your location dealt you, and comp sci isn't it.
Personally, I'm going back to uni to get a PhD. Business isn't so bad, but I'd like more freedom, and I have come to understand that that freedom is restricted by either the company or the customer. I like solving problems, but I want to solve them my own way with my own tools. That sort of freedom isn't available outside R&D as far as I can see. I know I can get it researching either for academia or corporate research labs, but I need the PhD first. I'm impatient, and I'm not happy to wait for this sort of freedom to happen or be gifted to me. Perhaps that is the difference between the people who are and are not complaining on
... nope ...
If it weren't for that horse, I never would have attended those two years of community college.
fuck you. my technical skills should be all that matters. :)
Interpersonal skills and technical skills are mutually exclusive. A person with one by definition doesn't have the other. Someday the politics will adjust to account for that- but not yet.
:)
That's not true. There are plenty of people who are both likeable and technically competent. Slashdot's (Be proud. I resisted the urge to write "/.'s"
) readers glorify "troglodyte culture." Talking about how all there's nothing better than keeping your head down, stay out of the sun, and pound on your keyboard. That's fine to a point. But if you don't tell people what you're doing. Make them interested in what youre doing. Address their issues, and get them to address yours, you're a failure. No one respects the comic book guy. And no one respects the pretty boy either. You have to be a bit of both.
Bitching about how this isn't a technocracy based on standardized tests (except of course for those that complain about the standardize test and how they "don't need no educations or nor fancy degree.") gets you nowhere. Adjust. Evolve. Damn it.
And, believe it or not, diversity in CS is on the rise; it isn't a white boys' club any more. Um...diversity seems to be falling according to the latest numbers released by the nsf (don't have the link on me). First of all, above the undergraduate level, 'white boys' are vastly in the minority. Female undergraduate enrollment has actually been dropping in the last few years, although that could be because of the general trend away from CS. Sure, CS is more diverse than it was several years ago, but diversity definitely isn't on the rise.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
That's not true. There are plenty of people who are both likeable and technically competent. Slashdot's (Be proud. I resisted the urge to write "/.'s" :)
) readers glorify "troglodyte culture." Talking about how all there's nothing better than keeping your head down, stay out of the sun, and pound on your keyboard. That's fine to a point. But if you don't tell people what you're doing. Make them interested in what youre doing. Address their issues, and get them to address yours, you're a failure. No one respects the comic book guy. And no one respects the pretty boy either. You have to be a bit of both.
True- but that's NOT what the companies are asking for. They're asking for people to be TOTALLY both- a party-going pretty boy who *still* can tell you why refactoring in Microsoft Team Server Database Edition is a bad thing. Not just technically competent- technically guru level. And I'm saying THAT is an unrealistic expectation.
I know lots of nice pretty secretaries who are tecnically competent in Word and Excel- but they aren't the level of guru that you need when your server goes south because the router crashed during an Oracle replication of your SQL Express Database.
Bitching about how this isn't a technocracy based on standardized tests (except of course for those that complain about the standardize test and how they "don't need no educations or nor fancy degree.") gets you nowhere. Adjust. Evolve. Damn it.
I'd suggest that we're now at a point where society has to evolve to value all three. The pretty boys have their place too.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Maybe we've advanced to a point in technolgy that society will have to evolve or die. One could point out that the *need* for interpersonal skills is getting less with every generation.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
as Indian companies outsource to the United States
Sorry but am I the only one that had to re-read that twice to insure that I understood correctly?
Hello this is Chetan, how may I be helping you today?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
computer science is great if your name is apu. Call yourself Alex and get that CS degree.
is it viable in the U.S.? no way no how. CS is dead here.
They're using their grammar skills there.
I'm currently on my 4th out of 5 years earning a CS degree at a private university (5 years including a year's worth of on-the-job work scattered throughout the last few years). And all I can say is just get an SE degree. Statistically, very very very few CS majors actually do CS jobs (The listing of jobs with the best outlook backed that up). I recall reading percentages of less then 100,000 CS jobs exist in the nation, and millions of SE jobs. The thing is, CS is at it's core a real mathematical science. The science of algorithms, the creation of compilers and new languages... A very narrow field that you have to excel in to actually get anywhere in.... I know I'll be doing an SE job in the end probably, and so will most others. I have also been fortunate with the cooperative education and have been able to learn that, and can take more SE courses related to development to pad my resume with useful knowledge.
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
What about a double major in either CS and Punjabi or CS and Szechuan/Cantonese?
I for one resent our soon-to-be Asian/Subcontinental overlords.
Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
The biggest problems in the CS industry have come from people trying to get into it for the money. If you really love programming, then do it. If you don't, then go somewhere else. It's always been a feast-to-famine line of work, and people who jump into it during feast times just bring it crashing back down more quickly (and more harshly). In short, you're setting yourself up to fail if you're getting into it for the money, and you're dragging the rest of us down with you.
Most people who are in it for the money don't excel at it anyway. If your heart isn't in it, you won't be staying up late almost every night learning new things just because you love doing it. Even if you're exceptionally quick, that puts you at a bit of a disadvantage. Just click on my web site if you want to see the kinds of things we like to do with our spare time. ;-)
You should have taken your CS degree here in Norway - mine's free, courtesy of my own future tax payments... Good or bad?
http://images.slashdot.org/hc/77/d00408dd9468.jpg
Do you mean that almost 10% of graduates are still unemployed a year after graduating? Doesn't that seem shockingly high?
The older I get, the more convinced I am: the key to success in life isn't study, or intelligence, or hard work (okay, these things can help, but not nearly as much as I was led to believe when I was a kid).
No, the key is sheer ambition. If you know what you want to do, you'll spot the opportunities to do it. If you don't know what you want, then - however gifted, skilled or privileged you are - the opportunities will pass you by. It's that simple.
Nice pitch, but this is slashdot where women == scary...
I've worked at a few firms in which a few have outsourced. In the places that did outsource it was very, very rare to get code back that was worth it and did not need to be rewritten.
Basically, if you have a CS degree then you will/are be in high demand in just about whatever country you live in.
NO! It's still a bad idea right now, as there is a flood of highly qualified unemployed tech workers already.
However, if you're like me and just love IT anyway, then you're going to take it anyway, suffer, and possibly find a way in the end. I had to look for a job for a whole year, but now I'm in IT and even if I'm just doing simple hardware tech work, I'm happy with it...
As for a good career choice? With job security? Not a chance... maybe find a niche like fiber optic cable splicing/installation, wide area networking, firmware design (my eventual goal...), one of many niches of OS design, or even a repair/maintenance field like printer repair - because they will always break, and it's hard to outsource hardware repairs.
If you have dreams of becoming a hotshot coder... please stop now. Do it as a hobby, and maybe you'll get good enough and just find the right job, but you absolutely can not count on it as a viable career at this point.
I did CS and loved it. I loved the MATH (that's what it majorly is), I loved the programming, I loved having long hair and never shaving... I loved the whole degree. It was a fantastic degree and heightened my experience at university doing the stuff I love...
HOWEVER, who seriously does a degree with the mindset, "This is what I'll do for the rest of my life"? Few I think, especially those looking for a career. I graduated two years ago and my life has taken me out to Amsterdam to work for a large IT company, back to my home (the UK) and I write this now in San José. I'm 23 and I spend most of my time travelling the world. What am I doing? Technical sales...
It's not math, it's not programming... it's not even software engineering. It's not anything I did at university. The Indian and Chinese guys have that covered here. They're also better at it than I'd be. What I've got was learned in the bars, at the sports clubs and on the phone begging for more money to continue my degree (and buy more beer). That's something you can't teach someone in India to do... How to work with people in the states. This means no disrespect, but someone born in India isn't likely to come to the US and wow with his people, presentation and linguistic skills. Someone born in the UK isn't going to move to the US and understand the local people.
It's a people-focussed world. Your degree is a ticket. Make it relevent to your overall goals, but focus on the other special experiences university has to offer.
Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
Whether it is a "good" career or not, there are three features that one must be willing to accept:
* Risk - It changes, offshores, onshores, downshores, upshores etc. more often than most careers.
* Cyclical - Generally IT has had a 10-year cycle of boom and bust
* Change - Things change all time, and one has to spend time to keep up. Factor this into education costs (including time). If you don't like change, skip IT.
* Agism - Generally age is not rewarded in IT
Table-ized A.I.
Here, here! Don't get me wrong: I am pretty good at programming and got decent grades in college, but if interpersonal skills weren't such a problem for me, I probably would have considered other lines of work. Now I go to a job interview, and they keep mentioning their team focus. It's like these companies want some perfect being who can code like a whiz and spend hours in front of a screen yet communicate and socialize like the smarmiest extrovert when the Company wills it. The HR types really have to acknowledge some people are more technically skilled and other people are more people oriented like themselves.
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
i did computer engineering, but i hated my job so much and just got addicted to making money. and i was miserable for ten years. thank goodness i'm out, now - enjoying my life with the rest of the business majors. i lost ten years of my life, but i got a lot left. my advice to potential IT workers? DON'T DO IT.
What would you expect to hear from a Computer Science Department? They're not in a position to advise against studying it (they'd be out of a job sooner or later).
The reality is that the jobs galore are at the SENIOR level. All you need to do is start looking for work & you will find that it is currently very tough to make a start in the industry.. and a long road to seniority. You must be the outstanding candidate with a strong ability to sell yourself with all the relevant work experience for each particular role i.e. it helps to have banking experience if you apply for an IT role in the banking industry & those already within the industry have a better chance than a grad with no experience.
Which leads to another important reality - merit is not the only factor that will get you a break. Many who have 'made it' will tell you that it was their all-round intelligence & attitude that got them where they are.. but they will blame the state of the industry, or some external factor, when they are made redundant (don't mess with their egos, man!). You will need to accept that luck needs to be on your side among other factors (like it was for many during boom-time). The only difference is that you have no control over luck, but you CAN increase your chances by putting more effort in than most. This will distinguish the top few from the bulk of graduates with nothing much to sell.
And on the other hand, there are a lot of highly paid incompetent staff out there who will make you wonder what is wrong with the world.
I would advise anyone to stick to an area of study that will bring out their best - and not be seduced by the pay or some stupid report claiming there are loads of opportunities..
Oh, & some very determined-not-to-give-up grads end up creating opportunities for themselves..
A CS degree is nothing more than a glorified math degree with the exception of a few classes. Has the curricula changed in Universities? They may or may not be good engineers. Definitely no guarantees! Focus on people irrespective of "degree" and more inclination of talent and skills. I hold a MS in CS, and I suck at programming (boring) and better at managing computing resources. Am I the exception of the rule? Maybe ... Then again ... Maybe not!
Academia is no paradise of freedom either. What you can work on is heavily restricted by funding and to a lesser extent other forms of faculty and institutional support (i.e., the politics of what fields are 'hot'). Moreover, if things go wrong somehow, it's not like a job where you can quit and find something better after a few weeks. Still, I'd say attending graduate school is a worthwhile experience.
Programming is the art of laying down instructions in a programming language so the desired output is produced or problem is solved.
Computer science is the science of programming: automata, grammars, compilers, lambda calculus, etc.
Software Engineering is the art of organizing all the above so the final output is without problems. This includes communication and business skills, analysis and design on paper, and good knowledge of technical subjects.
The difference between these must be taught in school so before one goes to university, one has a good knowledge of what each discipline entails.
By the way, Software Engineering is where the money are.
So many people graduate with a little bit of math, NO programming skills and slightly above average intelligence.
If you don't feel excitement, do not waste your life with programming. Do another mundane job. It doesn't pay that well either. (see above)
Rather than thinking about a perminant job, consider getting into the contracting market (especally in London).
Build up a small portfolio of websites and/or open source projects and be confident enough in your skills that you can sell yourself and not require too much handholding.
You will need to learn a skill have some experence in it before you can get a job in it (thats where personal projects are very handy) and in most cases being available immediatly is the clincher when picking someone.
You won't have sick pay, holiday pay and may even find yourself looking for new work on a days notice, but if you are good at what you do, then finding new work will be easy.
To get started, have a look at http://www.cukjobs.co.uk/csw/
PS. Contracting can pay 1.5x to 2x what you get from a perminant job.
Heh. Over here in Germany people are still crying because we just got tuition. In Bremen you pay 500/semester (or you attend the International University, which is entirely private annd costs ~15k/year), unless you are poor enough to qualify for government subsidies. The rates are expected to increase, with some federal countries thinking of rates as high as 1.5k/semester, but the students are mad about 500 Euros already.
And yes, the "pay until you die" thing is what most people are mad about - in the worst case scenario you might leave university with more than 100k of debt, which is of course undesirable.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
We are scraping for Computer Forensics, reverse engineers, & intrusion analysts for the contract I am currently on. Your Air Force security clearance is a big plus... :)
:) Sure, I could code back when I was working on my programming classes for school - but I hate coding. There is no way I could be a bit head.... But being a professional 'ethical hacker' aka being in the InfoSec world is where I wanted to be all along.
There is more to IT than just programmers, and more to IT than just CompSci degrees. With my technical AAS I went and finished my BS in MIS, and am one of the senior intrusion analysts for a Government contract. Fun stuff, and no CompSci!
Leaning more towards Computer Forensics? Then get involved NOW - set up your own lap at home and learn. Read. Go to 2600 meetings, your local Linux User's group, local CERT gatherings. Attend InfoSec conferences aka hacker cons (Notacon, DEFCON, HOPE, etc). Get the Air Force to send you to the SANS courses.
Show some drive & determination, the 'hacker ethic', and you can get where you want to go in InfoSec/Computer Forensics.
Great post. Most people seem to think that if you go to Universtiy, rock up to the tutorials and pass all the exams, then you are guaranteed some sort of job. Good workplaces look for something more, they want evidence that you are going to care about your work as opposed to just doing the requisite hours. They need to know that you will do the job properly, and not just the bare minimum to get by. This is difficult to judge from merely talking to someone, you look for clues, like what societies there were involed in at uni, what extra work they have done. I found the UK ridiculously easy to get a job in, once you learn this.
> Is it a good idea to go into Computer Science?
In theory, every science is equally commended, because whatever
the topic if you study it hard enough you are sharpening your mind.
It is not so much the facts that are the asset worth acquiring, but
the methods and transferrable skills: exploration, fostering curiosity,
systematic learning, absorbing new ideas, exercising dilligence and
persistence, self-management to meet deadlines.
Whether you do that in philosophy, law, linguistics, biology or
computer science is up to what you think is fun and available to you.
Having said this there are also practical concerns, such as getting
a job, but in my view you should put your interest first, then success
will follow. People who go for subjects selected via their "career factor"
rather than their vocation have less fun and are often second class.
Computer science _does_ have an advantage over other fields: if you look
at its definition, it's the study of systematic problem solving. This
means that you can actually apply the methods you'd be learning in
your classes very well to real life (how to do efficient shopping,
how to pick the best insurance offering etc.). Complex problems are everywhere
nowadays, and who would be better equipped to tackle them than he or she
who has studied their systematic solution?
Sometimes I think politicians should be computer scientists or statisticians,
because most of them were never taught how to _systematically_ solve problems.
If you decide to go for it, make sure that you focus on data structures,
algorithm desig and other disciplines as opposed to gathering "IT knowledge"
because the latter will be outdated soon.
But... how do I get those communication and interpersonal skills?
Windows users:
Internet Explorer is obsolete. Please upgrade to Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox.
Hello,
I just wanted to share my opinion on the general aspect of the computer industry. I have been in the computer industry for over 12 years. I am currently going to school to finish one degree and get two others that are very closing related. Eventually I am want the CS degree but not right now. The problem I find is that since I have been in this area of employment I have lost my job to India twice. I love computers but who can compete with $3/hr over at India? I can't can you. So what I am saying its great to work in this field but expect to switch jobs often because of outsourcing. Or some how force our governement to not allow it.
thank you, Brian M. http://www.masonfamilytree.com http://www.thefederation.us http://www.patriciaannmason.com http
CS is not a ticket to a good high paying job. Before picking it as a course of study, the most important aspect is to have interest in the field. By the sounds of your post, you got into the field because you thought it would be a good career with high demand and pay.
There is abosolutely no reason to have no experience. When we're looking for new-grads and junior developers I always remind the HR resume screener to keep an eye open for those who are proactively working on their own projects. Working on open source projects is an easy way to get experience.
A friend of mine asked me to look at his cousin's resume. At the time, he had graduated from CS and was looking for a job for about 8 months. As a favour to my friend, I brought his cousin in for an interview. What a waste of time for myself. It sounded like he had spent the last 8 months playing computer games. He had not learned anything new in the 8 months since he graduated, he had not done any kind of software development, and he really didn't sound like had any interest in the telecommunications field. I gave him a few suggestions on how to improve his position, like partcipating in open source development, learning new programming languages, or learning about some kind of specific field.
It just falls from my fingers, man.
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
[/SARCASM]
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
While a few languages survive for decades, most are consigned to oblivion or tiny niches after their 15 minutes of fame.
That's the problem with focusing your skill soley in coding. Indeed,
it makes your role much more vulnerable to outsourcing.
Think about it, there just may be something you can still learn from a CS degree:
latest algoritms, HCI research, security best practices, networking protocols, etc.
I strongly see the benefit of hands on exploration. At the same time, some
information is simply acquired more efficiently by learning from another.
Imagine trying to develop public key encryption by yourself!
One of my old colleagues actually ran into a real bug due to the "funarg problem."
As for the prevelance of using objects libraries, I readily feel your frustration.
It often feels like being a plumber - finding the right pieces and patching everything together. Nevertheless, I do feel it is proceeding in the right direction.
Why should eveyone rewrite their own string matching subroutine?
Why should I recode a windowing system in assembler for every new generation of graphics card?
There is power in abstraction and the only way to increase our efficiency is to USE that power.
You are probably smarter than the crop of newbies that you've ran into. But sometimes we DO have to prove ourself to others to get what you want.
The sheepskin is one way. You may find other alternatives: some people
build open source project for fame, some people give lectures.
Find the path that works for you.
I have thinking about this as well. I live in London, and I am worried IT is not that awesome anymore when I graduate. I am a second year student student here: http://www.wmin.ac.uk/cscs/page-75 If anyone has any career advice or comments on my future prospects, please feel free. I already have 3 years experience in entry level data entry in media (why I got bored and wanted a degree). Thanks.
Computer Science isn't computer operations, or systems engineering -- it's quite different.
But, with that said: Computer jobs are becoming like any other. More than 80% of us are grunts, working for (hopefully) middle class wages. The other "rock-stars" stand to make more money.
But at least we're not the idiotic, enthusiastic, crowd that dominated the Internet boom.
If you're getting into it for the money, go do something else. We don't want you.
If you're getting into it because it's work you can enjoy - welcome. We have plenty of open places for motivated, smart people.
Try to find a company where they allow you to actually fix their problems, and want you to. Anything else, you'll be frustrated.
+++OK ATH