Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up For Failure?

PetManimal writes "Computerworld has picked apart the way Vista handles DRM in terms of hardware and software restrictions. Trusted Platform Module, Output Protection Management, Protected Video Path and various Windows Media software components are designed to 'protect' copyrighted content against security breaches and unauthorized use. The article notes that many of the DRM technologies were forced upon Vista by the entertainment industry, but that may not garner Microsoft or Hollywood any sympathy with consumers: 'Matt Rosoff, lead analyst at research firm Directions On Microsoft, asserts that this process does not bode well for new content formats such as Blu-ray and HD-DVD, neither of which are likely to survive their association with DRM technology. "I could not be more skeptical about the viability of the DRM included with Vista, from either a technical or a business standpoint," Rosoff stated. "It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail — and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose."'"

Comments

Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

damn lameness filter made me expand my comment. Subject line says it all.

Re:Yes.

[Zonk (troll)]

How lame.

Re:Yes.

[Benaiah]

Once they piss of enough people with a voice.
It will have a snowball effect of Vista haters.
And then we can cry out for joy as the microsoft monster dies a miserable death.
Not likely but i can dream cant i?

Re:Yes.

[Divebus]

The world's sad devotion to Microsoft is imploding as we watch. Even with the solid lock Microsoft has had on so many markets for so long, they're REALLY turning themselves into the odd duck as high tech turns casual. I'll need another bag of popcorn before this show is over.

no no no

[Anonymous Coward]

Content owners aren't trying to impose new formats, content providers are. Unless, of course, people are fooled into buying licenses to view content, rather than the content itself.

Re:no no no

[smittyoneeach]

No, Vista is going to bring to a head the whole conflict between:
a) sheepish, complacent unwillingness to explore alternatives, and
b) childish demand for instant gratification.
My bet is on b), due to the entropy of the human soul. Once the hatred of the lock-in reaches bloom, the amount of cygwin, dual boot, live CD, and flat out migration will pick up steam.
It takes time to realize that there is a world beyond Redmond.

Re:no no no

[shadowmas]

and don't forget that with all these portable mp3/media players, you tube, etc people are starting to take for granted the ability to rip/share media files and do whatever they wish with them. if they come across a windows version which doesn't allow them to do that they WILL consider it to be a bug not a feature.

a few years ago Microsoft and media companies would probably have gotten away putting any damn DRM restriction they want without trouble but i think it's a tad bit too late to do that now. the cat's out of the bag...

Re:no no no

[drsmithy]

My bet is on b), due to the entropy of the human soul. Once the hatred of the lock-in reaches bloom, the amount of cygwin, dual boot, live CD, and flat out migration will pick up steam.

Right. Because the obvious place to turn to for cheap, fast and easy access to music, movies and other media is the open source community...

Re:no no no

[nmb3000]

and don't forget that with all these portable mp3/media players, you tube, etc people are starting to take for granted the ability to rip/share media files and do whatever they wish with them. if they come across a windows version which doesn't allow them to do that they WILL consider it to be a bug not a feature.

This is one of the more insightful ideas behind why DRM will fail. Consumers (eventually) will refuse to accept that the audio from a disc they just bought at the store cannot be played on their portable player. They will not accept that the video they just bought cannot be viewed on their computer. The idea behind DRM makes sense: preventing casual copying and distribution of licensed media, but the problem is how to implement that without infringing on the consumer's basic rights as a licensee.

The problem is how these companies are trying to go about it. It seems like the current idea is a complete blackout of fair use, and as media with new DRM is distributed like this switching to Linux/OSS will not be a silver bullet. Until the DRM is broken (and these companies investing millions of dollars in it need to understand that it will be broken), the media will be even less available for OSS users than Windows users. However, once the formats are cracked open, users on both operating systems will be able to benefit and reclaim their fair use rights because of the work of people who truly define the word "hacker".

To borrow a quote, the more they tighten their grip, the more consumers will slip through their fingers--until a critical mass is formed and the entire thing falls apart. Even now, Apple is constantly playing catchup with people who are breaking the FairPlay DRM. Any new method of denying consumer rights will follow a similar path.

Re:no no no

[Divebus]

"Until the DRM is broken... the media will be even less available for OSS users than Windows users."

Oooo... Noodle that a step further - DRM cuts both ways. We're all thinking DRM disables playing content without a key. You'll need Windows DRM to ENABLE playing content because it's natural state is a compendium of encrypted glop. The chip in your machine phones home. Media doesn't match? No chip to phone home? No play. Profit!

That said, I agree DRM in any state will be cracked. It was a bonehead mistake on a random DVD and a bright, observant punk that gave us DeCSS.

Re:no no no

[timeOday]

I think maybe he was assuming that Linux and other OSS would provide an unrestricted way to access DRM material. It's not impossible, CSS was finally cracked after several annoying years of being unable to play DVDs on Linux. Some people think all partial-access cryptography is doomed. Personally, I'm not so sure. I think one of these times they'll get it right and we'll be locked out for good. The cable industry seems to have a pretty good handle on it.

Re:no no no

[jZnat]

The idea behind DRM makes sense: preventing casual copying and distribution of licensed media, but the problem is how to implement that without infringing on the consumer's basic rights as a licensee.

The goal of DRM is to promote vendor lock-in and to make consumers re-buy all their media when the format updates, not to protect against casual copying.

Re:no no no

[jZnat]

BitTorrent and LimeWire seem to do well on their on in providing cheap, fast, and easy access to music, movies, and other media, and they're both open source programs based on open protocols.

Re:no no no

[Pofy]

>Unless, of course, people are fooled into buying licenses to view content, rather than the
>content itself.

Of course, in most countries in the world, you don't need any license to "view" most conent at all. You may also wonder how, apart from the license, how the consumer would get hold of the copy of the work as that is also needed, a contract that allows you to view it (even if required) would be of litle use without a copy of the actual work as well.

Re:no no no

[Anonymous Coward]

>Even now, Apple is constantly playing catchup with people who are breaking the FairPlay DRM. Any new method of denying consumer rights will follow a similar path.

Do you realise the significance of what you just said? Apple really is "playing" catchup, whereby they only do enough DRM to satisfy the content companies in contract negotiations. You may have noticed that you can use iTunes rip to CD with no DRM quite easily. They are almost taking the piss. Almost.

Re:no no no

[MemoryDragon]

It still might work out, the plan is to enable all this features over time and make them as ubiquous as possible. Given the comments I earned here on slashdot warning of all this DRM mumbo jumbo in blue ray (basically: nothing changes compared to dvd was the usual tone). I have huge doubts that this stuff is bound to fail. The DRM is enforced ubiquously and with every piece of drm some sugar comes with. (Enable signal encryption on the cable, get better resolutions etc...)

The reason alone that a standalone Blue Ray/HD DVD player can be disabled by a black key list on the disk is enough to stay away from that dreck.

As I said, the ignorance most people have towards all this basically pushes my hopes of those formats being bound to fail down to zero. With Vista this is even worse, due to the fact, that the mechanisms done for the copy protection can be used for other things, root kits, or a copy protection bound to be enforced on software.

Re:no no no

[octopus72]

I don't see why you couldn't rip your DVD under Vista.
Vista "protections" target new, DRM'd content (that not many people will buy and won't be affected).

Re:no no no

[Eivind]

This is one of the more insightful ideas behind why DRM will fail. Consumers (eventually) will refuse to accept that the audio from a disc they just bought at the store cannot be played on their portable player.

I think you're rigth, but I unfortunately also think that the pain has to increase by an order of magnitude or so before the average consumer will wake up and smell the coffee.

People haven't experienced (yet), that they require the permission of the seller to transfer 'their' digital music library to a new computer, and that that won't work if the company in question is out of business.

People haven't experienced (yet), that closing the analogue hole means banning general-purpose recording-devices.

People haven't yet seen their collection wither and die when the next "one true format" takes over and Apple/MS brings out new players and new OSes that don't support the old format. (If you're lucky, you *may* be able to convert your collection, but this too only works if Apple *wants* you to be able to do that)

Re:no no no

[Anonymous Coward]

and these companies investing millions of dollars in it need to understand that it will be broken

It's a common misconception, usually "supported" by pointing to badly flawed implementations like CSS, that all DRM will quickly be cracked and subsequently not really matter to those in the know. For well designed systems running on an equally well designed TC platform this is definetely not the case. People should be more concerned about DRM and drop this idea that some mythical hacker will break every system; if that's the case why is StarForce, on current non-TC hardware, still unbroken? (There are flakey emulation workarounds for some games, but StarForce itself has been out for years in high profile titles and remains uncracked despite the efforts of the reversing scene's finest.)

Sometimes the argument is made that TC hardware doesn't matter either because the Xbox was cracked; however this was only possible because they made numerous well-documented implementation errors like sending the private key over a tappable bus. Mistakes are being learnt from. The 360 is a considerably more secure design, the only hack it's had so far is that DVD firmware one which is basically useless due to being hard to apply and easilly detectable.

Re:no no no

[smittyoneeach]

If the XBox were the only game in town, it might be more acceptable.
Competitors are then encouraged, like the PS3 to offer the Linux kit overtly.
One might wish that the companies had enough circulation above the neck to respect the freedom of the user because its Teh Right Thing To Do.
But hey, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, no?

Re:no no no

[CmdrGravy]

Only yesterday I heard a conversation which must surely be occuring up and down the country.

"When are you getting one of those zunes then Mr Gadget ?"
"I'm not"
"What ! A new gadget that you . . . aren't . . . buying. Surely the world must be ending ?"
"I'm not buying something which decides for me when I need to delete songs and stop listening to them."

Re:no no no

[Anonymous Coward]

.. you can use iTunes rip to CD with no DRM quite easily.

  You *burn* to CD. You rip from CD.

Re:no no no

[jez9999]

People haven't experienced (yet), that closing the analogue hole means banning general-purpose recording-devices.

In order to ban brains, people have to have them in the first place...

Re:no no no

[RAMMS EIN]

``People haven't yet seen their collection wither and die when the next "one true format" takes over and Apple/MS brings out new players and new OSes that don't support the old format.''

Fortunately, Microsoft is doing just that, what with the Zune not being PlaysForSure compliant.

Re:no no no

[Hal_Porter]

People haven't yet seen their collection wither and die when the next "one true format" takes over and Apple/MS brings out new players and new OSes that don't support the old format. (If you're lucky, you *may* be able to convert your collection, but this too only works if Apple *wants* you to be able to do that)

You mean that you won't be able to install WinAmp & PowerDVD or any mp3/DVD player applications on Windows 2010? I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

Of course, if you want higher quality movies / audio the new formats will be DRM'd, but for most people the convenience of the old formats and the fact that they have so much media them will outweigh that. And I think that new content will always get converted to unresticted formats and torrented. And even if it isn't, is it really such a shame that you need to buy or rent new movies with money, rather than watching them for free?

Re:no no no

[h2g2bob]

Having the DRM broken doesn't matter to these companies - now they have the DMCA!

Re:no no no

[indifferent children]

one of these times they'll get it right and we'll be locked out for good

And that day will be a banner day for the garage bands. You know, the bands that charge $10 for a CD (without DRM) at a concert where the cover charge is $15. Our local ClearChannel venue is charging up to $120 for lousy seats. I don't know how much the CDs cost, and probably never will.

And the day that Microsoft comes out with a 100% effective anti-infringement method (think non-broken WGA) for Windows, will be a banner day for Linux.

Re:no no no

[mpe]

It's a common misconception, usually "supported" by pointing to badly flawed implementations like CSS, that all DRM will quickly be cracked and subsequently not really matter to those in the know.

With copyright terms currently lasting in the order of a century "quickly" can mean "within 20 years".

For well designed systems running on an equally well designed TC platform this is definetely not the case.

The only way such a system can reasonably be expected to work is if it can be expected to protect information for most of a copyright term. The easiest way to do this would be to drastically reduce copyright terms though...

Re:no no no

[ConceptJunkie]

Fortunately, Microsoft is doing just that, what with the Zune not being PlaysForSure compliant.

Well you don't have to worry since it work with your brand spankin' new Vista machine anyway.

Zune, like Vista, is one of those products that forgoes all the potential benefits it could provide and offers a product with no advantage over what's already out there.

Of course, MS can afford let Zune flounder for 5 years until they hit the critical mass of features and it suddenly takes off, but that doesn't mean they will. It's been so long since Microsoft has had to take customer wants or needs into account they may have forgotten how to do it.

Re:no no no

[ejp1082]

It's not about "watching them for free". It's about being able to exercise my legal fair use rights over media that I legally purchased.

Re:no no no

[msobkow]

My understanding is that media is provided with copyright text specifying your license rights to the content of the media.

Some media such as audio CDs have specific government legislated license requirements, others do not. Some rights are inferred from the precedence of video recorders and audio CDs, others have not been clarified in law.

People won't be "fooled into buying licenses to view content", they have been buying such licenses for years. The media companies just need to stop interfering with customers accessing the media they've purchased with the device or format of their choice. Their only concern should be the initial delivery format and license grant, not the specifics of how a consumer uses the media.

I see the media company's interest in consumer use of the media as an infringement of the human right to privacy.

Re:no no no

[Hal_Porter]

What fair use rights would those be?

Wikipedia doesn't mention any right to make 'backups' of media. Neither does the US copyright office. In fact as wikipedia points out "if consumers can make a copy of a CD for their car, they can give MP3 files to everyone". Quoting a small part of something with attribution for critical purposes probably is fair use, BTW. Copying the whole work verbatim isn't.

Anyhow, if you feel some media infringes your rights, don't buy it.

Re:no no no

[Anonymous Coward]

While not fair use per se, Copyright law does acknowledge that software backups are an exception to copyright law.

Wikipedia/USCopyRight/DefenseAndExceptions

Sections 108 and 110-122 include specific exemptions for types of works and particular entities, such as libraries (Section 108), public broadcasters (Sections 110 and 118), braille (Section 121), software backup copies (Section 117), "cover license" permitting sound recording covers (Section 115), and jukebox compulsory licenses (Section 116).

Re:no no no

[ejp1082]

From the Wikipedia article you link to:

Yet see Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios for a case in which substantial copying -- entire programs for private viewing -- was upheld as fair use.

Making full copies for the purpose of time shifting, format shifting, and backup for personal non-commercial use is regarded as fair use under the Sony Betamax case law. Hence the legality of VCR's and Tivo. Various DRM schemes seek to make this impossible, and the DMCA makes exercising these rights illegal even where tools exist to do it.

Further, DRM also prevents fair use with regards to quoting and excerpting, regardless of the purpose. I can't clip a scene from a movie purchased from iTunes for the purpose of reviewing it on my blog, for example. At least not without first breaking the DRM.

For the record, I don't buy DRMed media. But my unwillingness has absolutely nothing to do with a desire to get it for free or share it on P2P networks.

Re:no no no

[Keeper Of Keys]

As I understand it, when the DRM is cracked, FOSS users will be better off than Vista users, as the latter has the ability to block 'unauthorized' software - and you can bet your little crack is going to end up on that list.

Re:no no no

[LunaticTippy]

If Vista doesn't approve dvd ripper drivers you can't rip a dvd.

Re:no no no

[Grishnakh]

``People haven't yet seen their collection wither and die when the next "one true format" takes over and Apple/MS brings out new players and new OSes that don't support the old format.''

Fortunately, Microsoft is doing just that, what with the Zune not being PlaysForSure compliant.

No, not exactly.
Yes, Zune isn't complain with PlaysForSure, but no one will see their collection wither and die because of this. Why? No one actually buys PlaysForSure music!

Ok, maybe Napster's 5 or 6 customers will be affected by this.

Re:no no no

[FrostedChaos]

The digital holes may be closable "in theory," but in practice there are so many different organizations with their fingers in the pie that I doubt it will happen. There are countries where copyright is a dead letter, and some of those countries even have companies operating in them selling hardware! Imagine that.

For music and movies, the analog hole is the only hole you really need, and it will always be around. In related news, Darth Vader's-- er, Bill Gate's-- *new* Death Star is absolutely impenetrable.

Re:no no no

[imdx80]

PlaysForSure, one of the most irratating names, my mp3 collection plays for sure on whatever i want to try it on

Re:no no no

[octopus72]

First, only the 64-bit version can't load unsigned *kernel* drivers (it allows "userspace drivers" which don'tneed to be signed). Second, you don't need a driver to rip DVD, because everything can be done in userspace (with tools like DVDdecrypter).

Re:no no no

[LunaticTippy]

You seriously can't imagine a way to defeat ripping?

It's already been demonstrated that we'll have less functionality under vista and I don't trust our tools to work under vista forever. Why the insistence to lock down video signals if they don't plan to cripple ripping?

Re:no no no

[octopus72]

Protected video path is intended to make ripping harder with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc playback (and other new DRM'd content where encryption isn't *yet* broken).

DVD CSS scheme was cracked long time ago, so you can rip it with just ability to read files from a DVD disc and bypass all that region and encryption-codes crap. Exception can be "protection" schemes which intentionally corrupt ISO structure of the disc so drive(r) can "choke" on garbage data, but userspace filter-driver like AnyDVD or free specialised applications handle this well and certainly work on Vista (and will continue to work unless in an extremely unlikely case Microsoft decides to break almost any existing DVD player app as well as many other burning programs, various install DVD's or CD's, game copy protections etc., and blocks Vista users from reading plain files from a DVD - in which case we will just use Linux or windows XP to do the ripping).

Re:no no no

[Eivind]

No. I mean there's a fair chance that people who buy DRM-infected media today will be unable to play those in the future, after the next "one true format" takes over. People who insist on media in uncrippled formats are golden offcourse, aslong as it doesn't become a felony to posess a naked mp3-file.

Wait a minute..

[T-Bucket]

You mean, consumers might somehow be offended by being bent over by major corporation after major corporation??? When did this happen???

Re:Wait a minute..

[cloricus]

I'm a bit worried to be honest. Windows people seem to be ready for this rogering from Microsoft and they all have the out look of "oh but the DRM will be cracked within a month and we'll be free to continue doing what we do"...The real question is will it really be cracked (activation never was, well) and secondly do we want it cracked. It looks like a rather good model to me and most of the people who deal with advanced systems like that wouldn't touch Windows anyway - and we can be sure it is out of the realm of script kiddies. I don't see Windows users going back to XP once they've switched to Vista; they've been chopping at the bit to drop the dead weight that is XP (in their eyes) because of the pressure applied by the Linux and Mac camps who even with the Vista release are still infront. So there are two outcomes...Windows users find DRM to much and side grade to Linux or Mac or more likely they will bend over and continue to take it like they did with activation.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what they say:

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the American public.

Re:Wait a minute..

[vought]

Windows people seem to be ready for this rogering from Microsoft and they all have the out look of "oh but the DRM will be cracked within a month and we'll be free to continue doing what we do"...

In my experience they're all screaming from the rooftops about how Zune is almost nearly as good as the iPod was two years ago, and that makes it better because Apple sucks.

an even better question would be: "With Microsoft bleeding billion into the Xbox, a billion into the Zune, and with Vista set up for failure, will MCSEs and IT managers finally start looking at other operating systems with anything but disdain?"

Re:Wait a minute..

[Bios_Hakr]

I think it will be cracked. Various mafia-like entities make too much money from selling street-corner software. There is a lot of money to be had for the people that crack Vista.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Nanpa]

Activation was never cracked well?

Perhaps you'd like to meet my friend, Mr 'Corporate Key'

Re:Wait a minute..

[wasted]

I thought it was" "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public", or something to that effect.

Re:Wait a minute..

[cloricus]

Windows users are continuing to test the waters of Linux and to be honest I think this is the best way to convert them...Show new users that over a period of time Linux is a manageable learning curve and has some clear advantages. Every one I know that uses Linux full time after being a long time Windows user did it this way including myself and it takes about one to three years. This process is being helped a long now that Linux isn't playing second fiddle to Windows and is now focusing on catching up to OSX and finding its own identity instead of just being a straight (boring and useless) Windows clone. And with compiz/xorg working on everyday hardware without issue and Vista's upgrade costs at least force a bunch of new to Linux Windows users start testing the waters. If this is kept up the rate of users defecting to Linux and Mac will hopefully turn into a land slide in the next five to ten years and then we will truly see the year of the Linux Desktop.

Note I do hope users go to both Linux and Mac in roughly equal groups as I'd like to see us avoid another monopoly situation like this Microsoft hell we've had to live through.

Re:Wait a minute..

[RobertLTux]

and there are cracks for Vista running around NOW

Re:Wait a minute..

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really think the Mac isn't going to embed DRM? If they want to be friendly with the media companies (which they have to be if they don't want their iTunes content to dry up), they will have to implement equivalent protections that MS does.

Further I would really like to see people stop acting like DRM is a new thing. It isn't. It's been around almost as long as digital computers have been available to the masses. Am I the only one who remembers the games that had a red filter and code card that you needed to use to start the game? Does no one remember floppy disks that had bad sectors that the program checked for so you couldn't copy them without hacking around the protection? The only difference now is it is getting harder to get around the protections but it's also getting a lot more transparent.

Personally, I would love to not have to deal with DRM. And if there is an alternative I won't. That is why I don't buy anything from iTMS (or any of their competitors). It's also why I probably won't upgrade to the new high-definition formats.

As for Vista, the only thing that MS is "responsible" for (IMO) is activation and WGA. Everything else is a framework they are providing for the media companies and which you don't have to use. As for the MS stuff, I have a really hard time complaining about activiation. Almost all pro-level commercial apps have some form of it. It would be really hard for me to hold MS in contempt for it and then go out and buy Photoshop. WGA on the other hand is stupid. If they've validated you with the activation that should be the end of it IMO. Although I wouldn't be too surprised to see other companies following suit. And to be honest I've seen worse. (Such as a certain application that when patched would remove the itself without warning if it thought you had pirated it.)

Re:Wait a minute..

[quizzicus]

Note I do hope users go to both Linux and Mac in roughly equal groups as I'd like to see us avoid another monopoly situation like this Microsoft hell we've had to live through.

Except Linux could never have a monopoly, because it can be forked by a dissatisfied user at the slightest provocation.

Re:Wait a minute..

[aussie_a]

(which they have to be if they don't want their iTunes content to dry up)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. There will always be people wanting to sell their music through Itunes. The content well will never dry up.

Re:Wait a minute..

[westlake]

Windows users find DRM to much and side grade to Linux or Mac or more likely they will bend over and continue to take it like they did with activation.

Geek: Activation! Wah!

Everyone else: Click. Click. Done.

Geek: DRM! Wah!

Everyone else: Insert HD-DVD Movie. Play HD-DVD Movie. Done.

When HD-DVD and Blu-Ray drives become available for the Mac or OEM Linux, (think Linspire systems sold through Walmart or Target) they will enforce the same DRM rules as Windows, the XBox or the PS3. There is no side-grade.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

I don't think MS is that dumb to let media companies rule their decision making in Vista. After all, it's their future that's at stake.

Also, in the real world the problem is not as simple as "windows vs linux vs mac". Zealotry toward an OS only exists in slashdot. What if your employer wants you to hand over reports in Word? You have three options: write it up in Wine, or in windows itself on a computer assigned to you in the office, or quit. No sane person would choose #3 (except RMS, maybe). That leaves #1 as the only option. It's fine as long as you have all the time in the world, but once you've worked 9 to 5, have a family and children, you REALLY DON'T CARE. MS can take over the world for all I care, I just want to get this goddamn report done and go home. To hell with the DRMed-to-death Vista. Give me anything with Office in it and I'm happy.

This line of thought might sound weird and impossible when you're still in college. But trust me, once you've worked in a proper corporate office for about 10 or so years, you'll understand perfectly why Linux and Macs won't EVER win over MS.

Re:Wait a minute..

[cheater512]

Activation was cracked pretty well. I....A friend recently did it for a virtual machine. :)

Re:Wait a minute..

[whitehatnetizen]

check this one out: http://www.smh.com.au/news/biztech/vista-gold-but- cracked-already/2006/11/14/1163266532925.html "Various pirate websites have a version of Vista available to download, called "Vista BillGates". It comes supplied with a product key, allowing users to install the operating system on their computers unhindered. A second patch - a separate download, called an "activation crack" - must also be applied. This bypasses the activation process used by Vista to ensure that each installation is legitimate."

Re:Wait a minute..

[cheater512]

When HD-DVD and Blu-Ray drives become available for the Mac or OEM Linux, (think Linspire systems sold through Walmart or Target) they will enforce the same DRM rules as Windows, the XBox or the PS3. There is no side-grade.

Tell that to region codes.

Linux never had problems with regions.
It was only until relatively recently that most dvd players ditched the regions.

Re:Wait a minute..

[cheater512]

Oops. Forgot to choose HTML. Serves me right for not previewing.

Re:Wait a minute..

[soft_guy]

News flash - they make Word for Mac.

Re:Wait a minute..

[alshithead]

Respectfully, you may be looking at things a little too shaded by your experience. I have worked for only three different companies in the last 20 years so I may also be in the same position but my experience is different. I just don't see broad disdain for systems other than Windows.

I have worked for a very large, high volume (1500+ stores) retail chain, an international, premier law firm, and one of the largest US based banks. All three of them used non-Windows platforms for very significant parts of their IT infrastructure. From all three here is the list of the ones I can think of quickly: AIX, Solaris, AS400, Xenix, HP Unix, Linux, Novell, Windows of course, and I'm sure I'm missing some. All three used Windows in some capacity be it workstation, server, or both, but critical chunks of their infrastructure were non-Windows. The law firm had it's entire financial and billing system on HP Unix but otherwise employed Windows workstations and mostly Windows servers for all other functions. The retail chain (back in the day at this point) had a couple of Novell servers and some Windows workstations but most folks used dumb terminals to a mainframe. Their point of sale terminals in the stores were Xenix and then migrated to a Linux. The bank's systems spanned the spectrum with Windows only being a majority on the workstation end.

I think that most larger organizations have a distinct need to be more than just a Windows shop. Windows can't do it all...and there are a lot of people out there who know that.

Re:Wait a minute..

[suckmysav]

"Perhaps you'd like to meet my friend, Mr 'Corporate Key'"

Er, but excuse me, corporate keys are for use on versions of XP that DON'T require activation.

Re:Wait a minute..

[redcane]

I don't see any point in the new formats. Not until I can get a projector that does 1920x1080.... I'm actually reaching a point with a lot of things in technology where its "good enough". I know it sounds a bit like "640K should be enough for anyone", but the way things are currently, I'm pretty happy with standard definition digital. I still have a standard definition TV, and I don't see any real reason to upgrade. In hindsight I should have gotten a larger one, since sometimes it's hard to read small text in some widescreen presentations now that the tv is in a larger room (leaving the lounge farther away from it). But I don't think I'd gain too much by increasing the resolution. I'll probably "upgrade" the telly when our power goes solar and I need something that uses less juice than the CRT.

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

Most people don't care, most people don't want a crack for it. Despite the slashdot demographic, all those business users with site licenses aren't going to care. Most people with legal copies of Vista simply aren't going to care, especially people who use it as a media center. Most slashdotters already don't use an MS based media system.

And I'm certainly not going to care because I have no intention of using Windows Vista anyway. Two computers in my house have Windows 2000, two (the ones I use) are dual boot and haven't booted to Windows in months. The laptop is the only one with XP and I don't care. The only reason I'll ever own a copy of Vista is if I buy a system that comes with it, and I won't care.

So you're going to have a majority of people at one extreme who don't care because they don't even realize they're getting screwed, you're going to have a small minority at the other extreme who don't care because they don't use Windows anyway, and then you're going to have a small minority in between... a vocal minority that screams bloody murder about it. But when MS sees 10k or even 100k people whining and complaining, they'll compare that with their 10 million or 20 million or 300 million licenses sold and not give a flying [expletive].

I think you guys overestimate the people who care about this sort of thing. It's really sad that they don't, but the simple fact is that they don't.

Here's an example: I know of a lot of people who were screwed when they bought music at iTMS and didn't own an iPod, they owned an MP3 player. They could only listen to the music on their computer or burn a CD. How many Joe users know they can then rip the CD using completely free software? Yes, the tech saavy people I work with, and students perhaps. My parents don't know how to do this. Neither does my sister or even her kids. The secretaries and pointy headed bosses at work don't know or care. So they get annoyed, but all that happens is they figure out what format their player plays and buy that. Problem solved, in their minds. Why on earth would they need to "set it free" when their player will play it? Why waste time and resources taking that extra step?

Re:Wait a minute..

[Venik]

With Microsoft bleeding billion into the Xbox, a billion into the Zune, and with Vista set up for failure...

Oh, please... That poor, poor Microsoft. What I find mildly amusing on Slashdot are all these young and idealistic IT "professionals" pretending to be cynical realists; talking about Linux this and Linux that, and about Microsoft's impeding demise (if not next week, then by Christmas for sure). These are the kind of boys and girls who get their first real job and think that somebody actually gives a rat's ass about their opinions and their wonderful programming skills.

It takes years in the IT field to finally realize that smart ideas and good products don't sell. What sells? Entirely random stuff. Some of it turns out to be not bad, but most of it is crap. Why does it sell? Because people running Microsoft and such know just a bit more about selling stuff than an entire army of twenty-year-old comp sci graduates. Reading all this excited chatter about how badly Windows suck make me feel like I am in a twilight zone. C'mon people, pull your heads out of your asses and try to understand that Windows is not a computer operating system. It IS the computer, as far as the vast majority of PC users understand it.

So current DRM schemes run into some issues with Vista. Big deal. The entertainment industry will comply with Microsoft, because Windows is how people watch their stupid movies and play their stupid MP3s. What about Linux, you ask? Well, most PC users think that linux is a kind of a wild cat with pointy ears.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Loconut1389]

There's also Crossover Office for Linux done by Codeweavers I think. It's basically Office under Wine, but tested and supported.

Re:Wait a minute..

[KwKSilver]

Yep, Windows users will take it ... because they are told to take it by MS. They will like it, too, no matter how bad it is ... because they will be told to like it. Sheep/slaves ... take your pick. I find it impossible to care. If they are willing to walk over a cliff because they are told to ... that's their business, and not mine.

Re:Wait a minute..

[chris_mahan]

Let me add to this: Today I got a second PC, (2 pcs on a desk, imagine that) and I installed Ubuntu 6.10. First, people were like "Good luck!". Well, after about 2 hours, I had firefox te way i like it, adobe acrobat 7, java, eclipse, jedit, samba working (type smb://someservername/ and put in your creds) and a goregeous interface, snappy apps, and had already checked the codebase out of the cvs server via ssh.

They were floored.

Of course, I did it all with the gui. Even set the desktop background to a photo of my son (which, for the average l-user, is the ultimate in tweaking.).

Why, yes, I work at a fortune 500. And my boss knows.

Now, if i can just figure out how to use sql enterprise manager on ubuntu... j/k, that's what the other machine is for. That and Lotus notes. I'm still trying to decide if I want to install the linux version of that steaming pile of crap software or leave it where it is.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Darby]

MS can take over the world for all I care, I just want to get this goddamn report done and go home.

Wow.

Way to go sticking up for your kid's future.

"I love you kids, that's why I don't give a flying fuck about what kind of world I'm making for you."

Great attitude. Way to be a parent!

Re:Wait a minute..

[Firehed]

And ironically enough, it's better than Word for Windows.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

See the price tag for a Mac. Then multiply by 1000 for a good-sized office.

Fact is, not many corporation buy Macs unless it's absolutely necessary (for design purposes, for example). The above example is why.

Although I kind of suspect the "flashiness" of Macs & OSX is another reason why. Business wants boring-looking stuff, not something that looks fancy.

I can easily reverse the argument here. Imagine you're running a business. Would you equip your 1000 employees with Toyotas or BMWs? We know for a fact that BMWs is a much better car, but Toyotas work fine nonetheless.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Divebus]

"Yep, Windows users will take it ... because they are told to take it by MS"

Nahhh... half the fun is cracking Windows crap to make it all free. Sheep/slaves is a bad side effect, not a goal. That's why all the MS fans keep saying how cheap it is to run everything on Windows - because they STEAL IT.

If they were forced to purchase everything they stole, they'd all be running Ubuntu next week.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

The thing is, the Linux part isn't supported. Sure you can buy a support package for Linux, but the majority of people have some capability to troubleshoot windows.

I'd love to see Linux or any UNIX on corporations, but the stranglehold MS has on people's skill is difficult to shrug. Retraining people to be sufficiently able to operate Linux is no small investment, so businesses simply follows the obviously cheaper solution. While the cost of licensing windows is expensive, arguably the TCO (at least today) is lower due to the lack of need to train people to use windows. Also Linux's compatibility difficulties across versions is not helping a bit.

I'm old fashioned and still think a centralized server, the UNIX way, is a better solution and easier to manage. Managing active directory and windows domain controller is a nightmare (for me). However the cost of me doing all that hocus pocus on windows server on overtime is still cheaper than the cost of training the whole office.

I can rant endlessly on why windows is not a perfect solution (or even a good solution), but I can't argue that it does work although it takes a lot of black magic. And that is precisely what businesses are looking for.

Re:Wait a minute..

[timeOday]

Well, I diagree. I think Sony has flopped in the digital music market for about 15 years now because again and again they keep releasing restricted devices and formats that just don't do what you would expect, starting with DAT, on through Mini Disc, ATRAC, and continuing to this day. Again and again they try, again and again the market takes a whiff and heads for the door in droves.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

Your kid's future won't mean shit if you don't spend time with them teaching them the necessary skill to live their own future lives. I can go on trying to break MS's world dominance for the betterment of everybody, but my priority is spending time with them, not go on some crusade. Obviously your priorities are different.

To each his own, I guess. My parents used to say that you don't understand it unless you have kids of your own. Guess what, they're absolutely right.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Scarletdown]

Activation was never cracked well?

Perhaps you'd like to meet my friend, Mr 'Corporate Key'

There's also a little utility floating around out there on the Net called Make Me Legal. When you run it, your XP installation is flagged as activated.

Re:Wait a minute..

[h4rm0ny]

And does it have to be a choice? Sounds like you're making this a little extreme. I've managed to find time to install Open Office at work (which does MS Word documents fine, incidentally), and demonstrate it to a few colleagues. And I will sometimes be seen using Linux to get things done. Little by little, I'm converting the world I live in, into something better. And I certainly don't have to tell people how their college ideals will crumble once they get out into the "real world." I'll encourage those ideals and cling to them as much as possible.

Re:Wait a minute..

[bersl2]

It takes years in the IT field to finally realize that smart ideas and good products don't sell. What sells? Entirely random stuff. Some of it turns out to be not bad, but most of it is crap. Why does it sell? Because people running Microsoft and such know just a bit more about selling stuff than an entire army of twenty-year-old comp sci graduates. Reading all this excited chatter about how badly Windows suck make me feel like I am in a twilight zone. C'mon people, pull your heads out of your asses and try to understand that Windows is not a computer operating system. It IS the computer, as far as the vast majority of PC users understand it.

You are correct in that most users know jackshit about the different components of the machine they're using (and that's the way they like it), and that MS would more likely partially compromise its DRM as a concession to their users than lose many of them. However, having Linux on client-side business machines is the next step to widespread acceptance.

But I digress. The point is not to convert the unwashed masses; the point is to get a critical mass of the technically competent users and the enthusiasts to leave Windows (mostly, if not fully) for Linux. Get the vocal crowd, the more savvy crowd, the ones who will get behind a good* product and ignore or pan a bad* one, the ones that will speak to other users with their words and to companies with their wallet, but carefully*. Supremacy is not a necessity; equality is. When companies with quality products see that some of their user base is shifting, they will take more interest in cross-platform programming.

* When I say "good/bad", I really mean "above/below average"; and when I say "carefully", I really mean "with at least a minimal measure of thought".

Actually, it's still not as straightforward as that. All of this overoptimism may make your head spin, but it is indicative of our greatest strength as a community: unlike the agents of most large corporations, who must first answer to the interests of the stockholders, we are fundamentally stubborn; and that is why, as long as we are able to keep each other stubborn enough (stubbornness stresses the psyche, sometimes to the point of exhaustion) without being too stubborn as to be inflexible to the point of putting off others or not accepting new ideas where they make sense, we will succeed (foul play notwithstanding) in having equal opportunity to take advantage of whatever technologies others are able to.

Either that, or I'm a raving lunatic going mad.

Or... are you the one going mad?---this just might be the Twilight Zone for all I know.

Hell, the whole world is going mad! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! >;P

Re:Wait a minute..

[Schemat1c]

Except Linux could never have a monopoly, because it can be forked by a dissatisfied user at the slightest provocation.

I think it's better for a user to fork an OS than the other way around. Of course that was most likely your point, I'll just go back to drinking my wine now...

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

I tried but mostly was not as successful as you have, obviously. My office swears by ASP, but I absolutely loathe Basic as a language so I was promoting PHP instead. You wouldn't believe the hoops they're willing to go through to make ASP work while I showed them how PHP can solve their problem in one line. Most people will say that Linux is interesting and powerful but stopped short of actually trying it.

I guess I came from college full of high ideals and quickly realize that such ideals are too good to be true. People are afraid of change, and they're clinging to their old ways as much as they can, even when an obviously better alternative presents itself.

In a way, we are a flip side of them. We are trying to convert them to the "Unix way", much as they're trying to convert us to their "windows way" (although subconsciously). The only practical solution is a compromise, and as long as the work is done, anyone can use the tool of their choice.

I guess I've tried enough times that I just wake up one day and realize that all this "windows vs linux vs mac" argument is useless, and the only people that care is us. After that, I'm beginning to appreciate why my boss loves windows so much and why the designer in the corner loves his mac so much. The answer? People have different priorities. You might not understand why your mechanic friend made such a big deal out of your engines or petrol choices, but that's exactly how the world sees us.

Re:Wait a minute..

[jibjibjib]

Exactly the point. Get the corporate edition and you have essentially circumvented the entire activation procedure without having to do anything.

Re:Wait a minute..

[vought]

What I find mildly amusing on Slashdot are all these young and idealistic IT "professionals"

Thanks for assuming who I am...but did you notice your UID is over 850k after mine?

I've been in the industry (and reading Slashdot) a hell of a lot longer than you, fella.

So current DRM schemes run into some issues with Vista. Big deal.

So tell me - at what point does it get to be too much fucking trouble - and how much money will that strategy ultimately make for the studios?

The **AA thinks that DRM will save them - and it could, if handled right - but Microsoft's vision is one of superrestrictions and flashy Zune-ish crap.

Given how buggy and restrictive Microsoft's software is for the money, you think the consumer is going to buy into that vision and experience over the long term (10-20 years)?

Re:Wait a minute..

[rucs_hack]

Linux is just the kernel, did you mean to say the entire operating systems could be forked?

It's extremely unlikely that the kernel will be forked, as it's such a huge effort to maintain and improve as it is. There are some custom kernels, but those are for specific purposes, not general use.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Weedlekin]

"See the price tag for a Mac. Then multiply by 1000 for a good-sized office."

See the price tag for the original IBM PC, XT, AT, and AT/E. Multiply it by 1000 for a good-sized office. Compare that price with competitors' offerings at the time, and wonder how IBM were able to sell even one of them if cost was such an important factor in the buying decisions of all but the smallest companies. Now realise that:

1) Those who buy things by the thousand get big discounts, and suppliers with bigger profit margins have more bargaining room than those operating on razor-thin ones.
2) Companies with good accountants can write a lot of the cost off against their taxes, so more expensive computers don't necessarily end up costing more over their projected life span.

"Although I kind of suspect the "flashiness" of Macs & OSX is another reason why. Business wants boring-looking stuff, not something that looks fancy."

If this is the case, then why do MS include fancy Aero UI features with every business version of Vista, but not all of the home editions? Surely this should be the other way around if business users want boring UIs?

"Imagine you're running a business."

Which is all you can do, because from what you've written, it's obvious you have never run one, or been involved in running one.

"Would you equip your 1000 employees with Toyotas or BMWs?"

You equip your employees with whatever offers the best deal to your company over the projected life time of the vehicles, and that is not always the same as what is best for a consumer buying one example from a dealer.

Note that even small businesses apply different criteria to their buying decisions than individuals. A professional carpenter or car mechanic does not go to a superstore looking for the cheapest tools -- they buy stuff that will stand up to years of constant use because paying three times as much for something that lasts your entire working life is cheaper than buying a new crappy one every couple of months. Small laboratories use expensive professional microscopes instead of a $25 "80,000x Magnification Super Microscope Set"; restaurants pay a premium for heavy-duty kitchen equipment; photographers will pay more for a lens than most people expect to spend on five cameras; musicians spend many thousands of dollars on instruments that seem much the same as ones for a few hundred to those with more modest abilities; etc., etc., etc.

Re:Wait a minute..

[sowth]

The BSD kernel has been forked several times, has it not? Why can't the same thing happen with Linux? I am surprised it hasn't happened already, but I suppose this would be due to excellent leadership on their part...

Though this thread seems to imply a fork is somehow negative. How can this be? Either you will have a choice between two kernels or one will suck and no one will use it. What makes having a choice bad? Oh yeah, most of you come from the MS world and are brainwashed.

Re:Wait a minute..

[shungi]

The point is not to convert the unwashed masses; the point is to get a critical mass of the technically competent users and the enthusiasts to leave Windows (mostly, if not fully) for Linux. Get the vocal crowd, the more savvy crowd, the ones who will get behind a good* product and ignore or pan a bad* one, the ones that will speak to other users with their words and to companies with their wallet, but carefully*. Supremacy is not a necessity; equality is. When companies with quality products see that some of their user base is shifting, they will take more interest in cross-platform programming.
That's me. At school I was the first kid with a laptop, and I was the first person I know *personally* to install firefox, and I extol its virtues far and wide; and people have been asking me for 'help with there computer' for years. But I have resisted installing Linux because I have to install it. It's not like the good old days when you could install QDos in a number of minutes just to check it out. You've got drivers and all the other shit now added on top of the time it takes to set something up. Until PC's ship with Linux, it will never take off.

Re:Wait a minute..

[James McGuigan]

While sometimes a fork will lead to two seperate and incompatable codebases, it does not preclude the fact that good ideas will be shared and even sections of the code will be shared (or reimplemented).

As for the Linux kernel, it does get forked but these forks are not usually over project management, but over new and possibly unstable features. The use of GIT/Bitkeeper also helps to keep a large number of trunks in play. Think of the Love patchset that was focused on desktop performance over stability (I think most of it has been merged now, but it could have been considered almost a "fork").

Re:Wait a minute..

[sowth]

Maybe not, but there is a huge amount of people who are brainwased into thinking RIAA pop music is the only good music. Same with hollywood movies. If Apple loses them, they will also lose quite a few customers (and potential customers).

Re:Wait a minute..

[igb]

I think the argument ``I have more industry experience than you because my log10(my/.) is one less than yours'' is pretty weak. Mine's yet another order of magnitude less than yours, but all that says is that I happened to be stood next to esr when he mentioned this website he thought was really cool. A lot of experienced people came to /. later, as it acquired critical mass.

ian

Re:Wait a minute..

[rucs_hack]

BSD, being from unix, has been around a long time, that might be why it's forked, or it could have just been conflicting ideals early on, I don't know.

You're right, forking of the kernel wouldn't neccesarily be a bad thing. However, there aren't that many linux kernel hackers, and there just might not be enough to obtain the critical mass required for a succesful fork of the linux kernel.

It's still early days for linux, we might see changes in the future. I'd be reluctant to change from the standard kernel at the moment.

Re:Wait a minute..

[HuguesT]

No it's not. I don't know where this legend started from but Word 2003 on Macs is simply horrid. For a start it's at least 10x slower than on Windows, the interface is non-standard and it crashes constantly ; the font handling system is not the same than for other Mac applications, it gobbles memory like there's no tomorrow, and the list goes on (not universal, etc). For the record I use both.

Re:Wait a minute..

[fbjon]

Hm, I can't find anything about that. Guess it floated away.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your wrong. Windows IS the computer? No, the net IS the computer these days, and eventually, people won't care how they access the "computer" on which OS as long as they can access it on their terms.
Customers are finicky, and the IT world can turn on a dime if the customers are pissed off.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Bertie]

That just goes to show how much sway the big boys hold in America. Here in the UK, about the only DVD player manufacturer who persisted with region-locking was... Sony. Surprise surprise.

Re:Wait a minute..

[ookaze]

I think you guys overestimate the people who care about this sort of thing. It's really sad that they don't, but the simple fact is that they don't

I disagree ! Divx and a lot of other similar technologies failed precisely because of restrictions like that.
Most people may not know what exactly is the problem, thus don't care, but they sure enough care about the end result.

Here's an example: I know of a lot of people who were screwed when they bought music at iTMS and didn't own an iPod, they owned an MP3 player. They could only listen to the music on their computer or burn a CD.[...] So they get annoyed, but all that happens is they figure out what format their player plays and buy that. Problem solved, in their minds

Which, for DRM, means they'll seek non DRM media : so DRM fail. Even by your example, DRM is bound to fail.
And your example clearly shows that they cared ! They may be clueless about it, but they still cared.

Why on earth would they need to "set it free" when their player will play it? Why waste time and resources taking that extra step?

But you just said their player won't play it !

Re:Wait a minute..

[shmlco]

"But I digress. The point is not to convert the unwashed masses; the point is to get a critical mass of the technically competent users and the enthusiasts to leave Windows (mostly, if not fully) for Linux. "

Of course, you also have someone else (Apple) going after that same critical mass of the technically competent users and the enthusiasts, also in an attempt to get them to leave Windows... for OS X.

And they have millions of dollars to spend on marketing, and a retail presence, and an end-user training and support structure to help said users when they get into trouble.

Not to mention the little fact that OS X already has ALL of the stability and protection advantages of a Linux/UNIX environment. And OS X is also "free" when you buy a new Mac. And it also runs nearly every piece of F/OSS software out there, as well as MS Office, Photoshop, Quicken, and most of the other major commercial applications. And it's supported by most of the hardware types like Canon, Epson, and so on.

Linux, OTOH, doesn't have the same level of marketing, retail, tech support, commercial applications, or HW support.

In fact, Linux's main advantage is that it's free (already covered) and that, should the average home or business user want to do so, they can recompile their system at any point in time...

Re:Wait a minute..

[RAMMS EIN]

``This process is being helped a long now that Linux isn't playing second fiddle to Windows and is now focusing on catching up to OSX and finding its own identity instead of just being a straight (boring and useless) Windows clone.''

That's really KDE and GNOME you're talking about. GNU/Linux has always been very much unlike Windows.

Re:Wait a minute..

[RAMMS EIN]

``And with compiz/xorg working on everyday hardware without issue''

Ehh...really?

Re:Wait a minute..

[maxume]

I'm a windows user. Up until this last September, I was using win2k; I upgraded to XP when I bought this computer. I won't upgrade this computer to Vista, and I probably won't buy a new computer until 2008, at the earliest, so I have plenty of time to see 'where the masters drive teh herd' before I end up using Vista. I might even do something foolish like start using Ubuntu, if Vista sucks. I don't think I'm real unique in any of this.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Hal_Porter]

What if your employer wants you to hand over reports in Word

He won't care if it's a .doc file or .rtf.

MS can take over the world for all I care, I just want to get this goddamn report done and go home. To hell with the DRMed-to-death Vista. Give me anything with Office in it and I'm happy.

Get your kid into the office, and she'll probably show you how to use Open Office on a LiveCD.

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

Interesting take, but the reason Sony failed in those markets is because they didn't let any other companies play, and could then artificially inflate prices. Sure, they eventually open the license up for others, but they made it cost so much that the players and recorders just weren't worth it.

Mini Disc would have been really cool. DAT is still used professionally (then again, so is Beta). They were really stupid about it.

But the fact is that people will download media files from commercial sites, and they will play. You have a large portion of people who actually don't care about playing media files at all anyway, then you have a huge chunk who actually pay for content and, wonder of wonders, it works on their system.

Now, I will concede that early adopters include a lot of tech-heads who know what's what, and if they're preaching to stay away from something, then some will definately listen. But this is not going to affect the widespread adoption of Vista. Do you really think there's any force out there that can?

Re:Wait a minute..

[ionizer]

I am the same order of magnitude as you Ian. And I have less IT experience than any of you. :) I happened to be a technical writer for a h/w manufacturer when I joined up... Haven't got around to quitting these parts entirely.
- Another Ian

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

I disagree ! Divx and a lot of other similar technologies failed precisely because of restrictions like that.
Most people may not know what exactly is the problem, thus don't care, but they sure enough care about the end result.

Yes, there are cases like this - but Divx players never got a foothold like DVD or Windows. Now, if DVD were to morph into something like Divx, people would complain but they would live with it. That's what's going to happen with Vista - Windows will morph into a DRM encumbered, draconian OS - and you know what, people will live with it and find what works with Vista. People will not abandon Windows; do you really think there is something, anything, that is going to stop the widespread adoption of Vista?

Which, for DRM, means they'll seek non DRM media : so DRM fail. Even by your example, DRM is bound to fail.
And your example clearly shows that they cared ! They may be clueless about it, but they still cared.

No, no, that's not what happened - most "other" players played DRMed WMA files, and that's what they ended up getting because that's what you could legally download. All they did was switch services to one that sold DRMed content they could use.

I'm not suggesting there isn't a huge market of people who rip their own unencumbered mp3s, but I think you're missing the average Joe market.

But you just said their player won't play it!

Right - so they found legal, DRM encumbered files that their player would play. The most popular non-iPod models will play DRMed WMA files. There was the case of a talk show host (typically political) who was complaining he downloaded files from iTMS and couldn't play them on his MP3 player. He often complains about technology we complain about here, like this. But then he specifically says "all you geeks out there can hold your breath, I don't need a million callers telling me how to make it work." He said the same thing when he complained about all the mal-ware on his PC. The web guy for his show suggested Firefox, and within a week he was telling his audience to try Firefox. That was cool. But he sucked it up with iTMS and just switched to a different legal service that he made sure gave him files he could use.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, people will get annoyed - but instead of breaking the DRM (which some will do), most will simply learn which content they are "allowed" to play and buy that.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing about what's right and wrong, I'm arguing that most people simply do not care. If they get a legal copy of Vista, and it's a prebuilt system, it'll likely have a Vista compatible DVD player, which means they can buy what ever DRM encrusted crap they want, and it will play - and that's all they care about.

I care! I waited years before buying my first DVD player, which I bought from a company that sold DVD players with Macrovision filters and region coding disabled (I know, you could this yourself with a lot of players). I can actually record directly to tape and it looks great (although I don't, I hate tapes). I had an arrangement, because of lack of inputs on my TV, where the DVD player was routed through the VCR, and it played great. Then I got a PS2 and moved the DVD player. Tried to play a movie on the PS2 and it looked like crap because of Macrovision encrusted signal simply passing through the VCR. So don't get me wrong - I pay attention to this stuff, I care, it's just my experience that most people don't. They don't want to hear things like "wait for a while and see what happens" or "write to this company and complain". They want their media players, and they want them now, and they want them to work, and as long as they get their content from the "right" places, that's what they'll get.

Re:Wait a minute..

[timeOday]

No, I don't think it will slow the adoption of Vista. The only question is whether people will use these new secured media pipelines Vista provides, or keep doing more or less what they're doing now. I'm sure you'll still be able to play good old mp3's one way or another. I don't think adoption of secure media is inevitable, just as Microsoft failed to kill off AOL with MSN dial-up service, even though they put MSN icons on the Windows 95 desktop.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Gruuk]

I have a somewhat low number, but I find it hard to believe it translates into anything more than having wasted way too many hours reading Slashdot ;)

On the other hand, I've 13 years in full-time IT under my belt (tech support, sysadmin, developer (not necessarily in that order)) and have been using computers (and programming) since 1982, which means two things: I'm getting really old and... hum... I forget.

Re:Wait a minute..

[mpe]

That just goes to show how much sway the big boys hold in America. Here in the UK, about the only DVD player manufacturer who persisted with region-locking was... Sony. Surprise surprise.

Part of the reason is that DVD's of movies have tended to come out in region 1 first. What has changed is that there are also now DVD's of TV series, because of a quirk in the way TV operates in the US, it's perfectly possible for these DVD's to appear last in region 1. (Even when the series was actually made in North America in the first place.)

Re:Wait a minute..

[pwizard2]

The real question is will it really be cracked (activation never was, well)

Windowx Xp activation cracks have been around for quite some time. My windows is ligit, but I still use it because I don't like the idea of having to beg microsoft to activate my install. The trick, of course, is finding one that is not a trojan.

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

I will give you that - mp3 is debateably not the greatest format, but it works, it's ubiquitous, there's a lot of free tools for it, and people already have established collections of mp3s. WMA, or whatever else MS comes up with, is not going to kill the open formats out there. And I also agree that it might encourage their use even more.

It's just the notion (the title of the article) "Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up for Failure?", the answer is no. Moreover, a lot of people will get sucked into DRM encumbered content anyway, just because it's there. Content companies will release media with new DRM schemes, and people will buy it.

Again, don't get me wrong - I disagree with the whole notion of DRM. As Princess Leia said to Darth Vadar, "...the more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers." That's what's happening with DRM. Look for the RIAA to whine to congress to pass laws banning mp3s or formats that don't have controls. It's utterly ridiculous, which is why they'll settle for getting royalties on anything remotely connected to mp3 use - players, memory sticks, software...

Re:Wait a minute..

[ejp1082]

There's a big difference between the market's inevitable adoption of Vista and the market's adoption of the DRM laden media-playback features of Vista.

It's rather telling, IMHO, that the iPod, iTunes software, Zune, Windows Media Player, and every "PlaysForSure" player out there continue to support playback of mp3's. Despite all the "success" of Apple's iTunes, I note that it hasn't exactly started a mass migration away from the mp3 format. At something like 4 iTMS tracks sold per iPod, something tells me people aren't filling up their players via that route.

I think that if Apple turned off mp3 support for the iPod and insisted it *only* play DRM-protected tracks from the iTMS, the iPod's marketshare would drop to nothing overnight. And while some small percentage of people might go for whatever music store Microsoft puts on the Vista desktop, I similarly suspect it won't displace the un-DRMed mp3 anytime soon, nor will Microsoft prevent the playback of un-DRMed music.

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

About ten years ago I really wanted to use Linux at home, and got sick of spending all my time configuring things instead of actually doing work.

I've tinkered with Linux off and on for some time, usually having a dual boot somewhere, but usually running Windows anyway. These past few years, though, I've really wanted to use Linux at home. The thing holding me back was the Cisco VPN software. I could only connect to work with Windows, so in a ridiculous twist of fate, I had to install X software on Windows to work on my Linux servers at work. That went on for years.

Now, though, the client finally works, and I just realized a few weeks ago that I hadn't used Windows in like 6 months, and didn't miss it.

Then again, I don't have software I specifically need for Windows, but I think most people will find Linux IS ready for the desktop, both in installation and practical use. Like you, I work for a large company, but in the specific work I do I'm usually given a lot of flexibility. Linux often makes sense when we're talking about web services.

The problem, IMO, about why Linux won't be widely adopted comes in three flavors: Windows is preinstalled on most systems, legacy Windows only software, and people are accustomed to Windows. It's not that Windows is necessarily better, it's that people are accustomed to it and Linux software equivalents are not exactly the same.

To keep this on subject, this is why I'm at the extreme minority on the one side who simply doesn't care because I don't use Windows and the only reason I'll have a copy is if I'm forced to buy it with hardware (a laptop, as I build my own desktops anyways). Further, there's a large segment of the population who simply don't care about the media content. Despite how a lot of slashdotters obtain/view content, most people still just rent DVDs or pay for pay per view. That's just how it is.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Prophet of Nixon]

So, why didn't you try to sell them on PHP running on Windows? Maybe changing OS, server, and scripting language was too much for them at once.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Anonymous Coward]

lol a slashdot UID number doesn't mean too much. Ever think that someone forgot their password and just made another acount?

Hell I remember when slashdot was truely a place where one could go to read news for nerd and such. Then the zealots arrived and it has been all downhill since.

Most of the people who made thoughtout unbaised responses left. Maybe they retired?

Slashdot has turned into a comic blog. All these high school and still in college 'experts' spewing their ideas and shooting down everything else when they have no real world experience.

Working in any industry:
  less then a year: your new shut up.
1-2 years : yuo have very limited insite, shut up
2-5 years: you almost there, you can aswer entery level thing but nothing more
5-8 years: you can finally can call your self somewhat experienced. You have seen most situations in that field by now, should have at least. your opninion is getting wet.
8-10 years: you opinion holds more water now.
10+ years: speak oh wise ones

Re:Wait a minute..

[MsGeek]

Another thing is that Apple tends to only use just enough DRM to placate the Big Media companies, no more, no less. FairPlay is quite mild and is only used with music you buy from iTunes. Panther and below do not use serials, period. I think that (correct me if I am wrong, I don't have Tiger yet but will when I get my MacBook this weekend) Tiger requires you enter a serial at first boot or during the install process. Tiger does NOT have activation, however.

Yes, the current Macintel computers do have all the hardware on the mobo, including the TPM, to where if Apple wanted to enforce heavy Digital Rights Manglement they could. However, Apple gets it. People buy Macs because they want *easy*. (Well, 98% of all Mac users, anyway. 2% are hackish types who want to play with a badass Intel Core 2 Duo platform, and Mac Pro with two 3GHz Core 2 Xeons is right now the baddest boy on the block.)

And full-on Digital Rights Manglement is going to make PCs running Windows Vista very *hard* computers to work with. Think of all the people who are getting false alarms with Windows Genuine Advantage NOW. Imagine Windows Genuine Advantage had the power to lock you out of your computer. Period. End of story. You won't have to imagine with Vista.

What the F/OSS community needs to do is unite in the pursuit of one very important task for Linux: MAKE IT EASY. Make it almost as easy as Mac OS X. It doesn't have to be AS easy, just easy enough to where it doesn't do things like require you to call up and play "mother may I?" with an operator at Microsoft if you have changed more than 3 things with your computer. This is something XP has been doing since 2001. Vista is going to be even more of a bear about stuff like that.

If the F/OSS community comes up with a truly EASY Linux, one that does all the things consumers expect it to do, expect a tipping point to arrive which will marginalize Vista. I suspect that Mac OS X Leopard and its future "kittens" will be what logically benefits from a marginalized Vista. People will be buying Macs instead of sweating Vista's DRM. The clueful will probably also run old versions of Windows on Parallels for the little things you can't run on Mac OS X. I predict a new bidding war for Windows 2000 installer disks on eBay, because that's the last version of Windows without the accursed "activation" scheme.

Fearless prediction:
In 5 years, the MCP-esque hegemony of Microsoft will be broken. Microsoft will basically be a company making desktop operating systems for enterprises and will have lost its stranglehold on the consumer market. Apple, by being cautious and consumer-focused with regard to DRM, will be on top. Linux will be in the position Mac OS X is now: a niche player with a significant niche. The niche will be different, of course: you'll see Linux on low-end Chinese and Taiwanese hardware. Think the Fry's Electronics "Great Quality" (heh) 200 buck Chuck computers. Expect Apple to license Mac OS X sparingly to big players like Dell and HP that want to keep in the consumer market, on their high-end stuff. Dell and HP's low-end stuff will be on Linux.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Firehed]

Try Word 2004 for Mac. I use both too (well, '04 for Mac, and a great number of different versions for Windows; generally XP or '03) and the Mac version is a lot better. Of course we're arguing opinions here so something tells me this is pretty futile. To each his own.

Re:Wait a minute..

[gfxguy]

I agree (if you care to look, you can see my response that basically says the same thing you just did). But the question the article askes (the title of the article) is "Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up for Failure?"

And the answer is no. And it's no because people don't care. So yes, people will be using unencumbered mp3s for a long time, but they will also accept MS' DRM in the same way that iTMS users accept Apples (for the most part). Some people will break it, but for the majority, if it works then it works, and that's all they care about.

Re:Wait a minute..

[TheTempest]

By that logic I can assume that I've been in the industry 62% longer that you. Jeez, it's been over seven years since even I've bothered to post a message. It's rarely worth the effort given the general quality of the comments.

Re:Wait a minute..

[RobertLTux]

umm have you tried one of about a bazillion LIVE CD distros? if you want to land up with a installed system then you could do one of the distros that can be converted from live cd to standard Like oh Mandriva 2007 (it has an icon on the desktop to do the full install)

Re:Wait a minute..

[sgtrock]

Fearless prediction: In 5 years, the MCP-esque hegemony of Microsoft will be broken. Microsoft will basically be a company making desktop operating systems for enterprises and will have lost its stranglehold on the consumer market. Apple, by being cautious and consumer-focused with regard to DRM, will be on top. Linux will be in the position Mac OS X is now: a niche player with a significant niche. The niche will be different, of course: you'll see Linux on low-end Chinese and Taiwanese hardware. Think the Fry's Electronics "Great Quality" (heh) 200 buck Chuck computers. Expect Apple to license Mac OS X sparingly to big players like Dell and HP that want to keep in the consumer market, on their high-end stuff. Dell and HP's low-end stuff will be on Linux.

There's another audience that you're forgetting about: all the geeks who love to twiddle bits. :) Generally speaking, we won't be migrating to Mac OS/X because we demand an environment where we are in control. Mac OS/X does a great job of providing a UI that a lot of people like (leaves me cold, but whatever), but it does so at the cost of hiding all of the details. I'm reminded of an old joke that someone posted on UseNet years ago comparing OSes and airlines. I found this version of the text here.

What if Operating Systems were Airlines?
This old standby is here updated for 1999... Air DOS Everybody pushes the airplane until it glides; then they jump on and let the plane coast until it hits the ground again. They then push again, jump on again, and so on...

Mac Airlines
All the stewards, captains, baggage handlers, and ticket agents look and act exactly the same. Every time you ask questions about details, you are gently but firmly told that you don't need to know, don't want to know, and everything will be done for you without your ever having to know, so just shut up.

Windows Air (now Windows XP)
The airport terminal is pretty and colourful, with friendly stewards, easy baggage check and boarding, and a smooth take-off. After about 10 minutes in the air the plane explodes with no warning whatsoever.

Fly NT (now Vista)(pre-release)
The passengers march out onto the runway, say the password in unison, and form the outline of an airplane. Then they all sit down and make a whooshing sound just like they were really flying.

NT Air (now Vista)(post-release)
Just like Windows Air, but costs more, uses much bigger planes, and takes out all the other aircraft within a 40-mile radius when it explodes.

UNIX Airways
Everyone brings one piece of the plane along when they come to the airport. They all go out on the runway and put the plane together piece by piece, arguing non-stop about what kind of plane they are supposed to be building.

Linux Air
Disgruntled employees of all the other OS airlines decide to start their own airline. They build the planes, ticket counters, and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee to cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download and print the ticket yourself. When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plan leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

I expect that the bit twiddlers will all end up on Linux over time. We love building our seats! lol

Re:Wait a minute..

[fyngyrz]

Tiger requires you enter a serial at first boot or during the install process.

I just got a brand new C2D 17" Macbook Pro this morning via FedEx; it runs Tiger (10.4.something). Upon booting up, it asked me the usual stuff about what keyboard layout I'd like (usa), if I'd like to import from my other Mac using Fireware (no), and my name and address. It found my wifi network, a few other things, then it then tried hard (3 screens worth) to get me to sign up for, or at least try for free, .Mac (no thanks; no, really, no thanks; look here, fuck off, eh?) and then it booted.

No serial number; I've not opened the disk pack that came with it yet (will, because Xwindows is hiding there) and the machine is up and 100% running. As a matter of fact, it should be fully charged by now, gotta go. :-)

Re:Wait a minute..

[suckmysav]

No, the point being made was that "activation has already been cracked". The discussion was prompted by the news that Vista Ultimate won't be available in a Corp version, therefore your cunning plan to use a corporate key is utterly stupid.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Tim Browse]

Yeah, but the American public are branching out, so they had to generalise it.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Darby]

Your kid's future won't mean shit if you don't spend time with them teaching them the necessary skill to live their own future lives.

Nor will your kid's future mean shit if the world you leave them is worse than the one your parents left you. Especially if it's one where a corporation has "taken over the world".

My point was more about your hypothetiucal situation and your lack of concern about that than about the current situation.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

I'm aware of all your points, but don't forget the cost of retraining people to use Linux or Macs. I'm fully aware of the discounts for volume buying, but that still won't break MS's stranglehold. I have a hard time trying to get the accountants to use a new software (from in-house to a "proper" accounting software), let alone trying to get them to use something not windows. Of course, you can always look for people with skills in Mac or Linux, but since there's relatively few of them, you're limiting your own choices.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

I guess I was burned way too much trying to do the "right thing" I simply give up, if that's what you're getting at. The current situation of every business I've involved in is that they're so fixated on MS's stuff they simply won't try anything else. I saw how MS was being used as a scapegoat if something goes wrong, and the higher ups solve the problem by throwing more money, even when the mail server (Exchange) was breaking down repeatedly. I can't really blame them, after all, the business does run well, even with all the screwups in the IT department. I'm certain I'll get the axe if I insist on using something else and it breaks down.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

Believe me I tried. PHP was running on IIS. The problem was, we were developing something based on XML, and in XML you're not allowed to have ampersand (&). Thing is, the database have that character. PHP solves it simply by regexp all ampersand and replacing it with something else. ASP have no such thing. Since my boss insist on ASP, their solution was changing the database.

Wow I guess years of frustration suddenly got the better of me.

Re:Wait a minute..

[shungi]

Yeah, and if I don't like I have to do a XP install again! No way!

Re:Wait a minute..

[zizdodrian]

Thats why it is a live CD. You don't have to install it to run it.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Darby]

Well, I wasn't trying to suggest that you should run out and "save the world" so to speak, or even get yourself canned over what tools your company uses.
I was just reacting to your statement that you wouldn't even care if Microsoft took over the world as you would prefer hanging out with your kids.
That situation would be far worse for your kids and everybody else than if you had bailed home the day your wife told you she was expecting, never to return.

Re:Wait a minute..

[shmlco]

"Generally speaking, we won't be migrating to Mac OS/X because we demand an environment where we are in control."

With millions upon millions of lines of kernel code, file, memory and dozens of other mangers, UI systems, the BIOS, firmware controllers, video, network and other hardware drivers, and not counting all of the lines of code in the applications, tools, and ultilities running on top of that code base, and 99.9999% of it, in all likelyhood, written by thousands of people you don't know and never have met, I submit that any "control" you think you have is purely illusionary.

But hey, compile a few sources sight-unseen and tweek all the preference-file settings you want, if that's what it takes to make you think you're in "control".

Re:Wait a minute..

[Weedlekin]

"I'm aware of all your points, but don't forget the cost of retraining people to use Linux or Macs."

This is one important aspect. There are many others that may or may not have an effect on a given business: reliance on a particular software set that only runs on Windows; corporate acquisition policies that obtain everything from a single supplier; having in-house software that relies on Microsoft tools and technologies; requirements for compatibility with software that customers use; or simply the standard corporate blame-avoidance culture that results in everybody being terrified of changing even the most stupid company practices (I am not implying that using Windows is universally stupid, but rather that stupid practices continue for extremely long periods due to an innate aversion to risk).

"I'm fully aware of the discounts for volume buying, but that still won't break MS's stranglehold."

I did not imply that it would. My point was simply that few corporations base their buying decisions on price alone -- if they did, then IBM would not have dominated the entire IT sector for so many years when their competition offered what were often significantly better products for a lot less money. Macs would be thus rare on today's corporate desktops even if they cost a lot less than the equivalent Windows PC, just as Linux is despite the fact that it can offer significant savings when compared with annual renewals of corporate site licenses for desktop Windows.

"Of course, you can always look for people with skills in Mac or Linux, but since there's relatively few of them, you're limiting your own choices"

If by "skill" you mean the ability to wheel a mouse around and click on things, then yes, people with Windows "skills" are by far the easiest to find, but by the same token, any competent trainer could bring them up to an equivalent level of "skill" in OS X or a given Linux desktop in a few minutes, and they'd have far less chance of loading their computer and corporate mail servers to the gills with bots, spyware, and other bits of assorted crap. However, Windows users with something approaching any recognised definition of the term "skill" are only slightly less scarce than desktop Linux users (nearly all of whom are far better with computers than 95% of Windows users, and I'm being generous to Windows users here), and might actually be more scarce than people who can use OS X competently.

Re:Wait a minute..

[kevinadi]

I'm guessing you know how hard it is to train people to use a computer let alone windows, osx, or linux. Many, many case (as much as 90%, in my experience) of tech support calls consist of unplugged mouse, unplugged power, minimized program, etc etc. Hopefully it's better today, but the amount of clueless users out there is mind boggling. Not to mention the politics of assigning blame that seems to take hold the bigger a company is so a company tend to stick to what's known to work. The situation we end up right now is the fallout from the IBM days, when no one was fired for choosing IBM. Thus we're stuck with them.

The thing is, not all jobs require computer to do. Stuff like accounting only use minimal amount of computing skill, marketing people who are good at spending $5000+ on a projector (but arguably is the money bringer in a company), and corporate lawyers. These people have scarce need for computing but most of them are experienced with office in some form.

Banning IE is the first step to do it right, but while firefox might be simple for people like you and me, for some people it's beyond arcane. Don't overestimate people's ability to use technology.

Re:Wait a minute..

[Weedlekin]

"I'm guessing you know how hard it is to train people to use a computer let alone windows, osx, or linux."

Having trained a fairly large number of total computer-illiterates, I don't think it's particularly hard if one avoids meaningless techno-babble or treating people like idiots just because they don't know anything about computers. By far the most problematic (and infuriating) users are the ones who think they're experts but know bugger all!

"Many, many case (as much as 90%, in my experience) of tech support calls consist of unplugged mouse, unplugged power, minimized program, etc etc. "

These tend to come from untrained (or poorly trained) users though. Remember that the majority of people need somebody to "install" their DVD player (i.e. plug it in and connect it to the TV), so their chances of successfully connecting up and using a totally unfamiliar device are very, very small.

"Hopefully it's better today"

I think its worse today than it used to be in the days of mainly command-line systems because companies like Apple and Microsoft have conveyed an impression that anybody can buy a computer, take it home, and use it straight away. And while GUIs have certainly made computers _more_ accessible, they are still a long way from being immediately intuitive to those with no prior experience.

"the amount of clueless users out there is mind boggling"

This is because companies have been marketing computers to clueless people without telling them that they may require some training, or how to obtain it at an affordable price.

"Not to mention the politics of assigning blame that seems to take hold the bigger a company is so a company tend to stick to what's known to work"

As many business analysts will tell you, an alarming proportion of companies also still follow policies that obviously do not work, but are still in place for historic reasons or because somebody at the top wants things done that way. Note that I'm not necessarily referring to computing policies here, but making a general observation.

"The situation we end up right now is the fallout from the IBM days, when no one was fired for choosing IBM"

It was actually more a case of IBM lending legitimacy to what were then mostly referred to as "microcomputers" than people actually buying a large amount of genuine IBM machines. They only sold around 3 million of them worldwide in the first five years of its life, and within a year of that, clone makers had already overtaken them in sales, as had the Commodore-64 (by a very significant margin). It was therefore the clones that actually established the IBM PC as a standard in a market where a large number of incompatible proprietary systems were competing with CP/M, which provided compatibility at the software and CPU level, but not in terms of other hardware (the wide range of floppy disk formats made life particularly difficult for ISVs). By contrast, the PC clones had standard keyboards, standard floppies, only two different displays (MDA and CGA) compared with a vast range of CP/M terminals, and standard expansion slots that could all use the same cards, and it was this as much as the original coming from IBM that generated a demand which fueled an entire industry of software, expansions, and peripheral devices.

"The thing is, not all jobs require computer to do."

Very true, although the computer industry does its best to convince us otherwise!

"Stuff like accounting only use minimal amount of computing skill, marketing people who are good at spending $5000+ on a projector (but arguably is the money bringer in a company), and corporate lawyers. These people have scarce need for computing but most of them are experienced with office in some form."

I can't speak for the US because I'm not based there. However, from my experience, the only Office item that marketing people use much is PowerPoint, but they don't seem to be very familiar with it, and would therefore probably be happy with some other piece of softwa

Re:Wait a minute..

[MsGeek]

I got my MacBook yesterday, and yeah, Tiger has no serials either.

And considering that between Google and AOHell I have just about everything .Mac users have FOR FREE, I gave .Mac the upraised middle finger. Oh yeah, Apple Store employees shamelessly pimp .Mac too. "No thanks" is effective against this as well.

Kewl machine. First time I've run a modern computer since 1999.

Alright!

[pegr]

"It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail -- and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose."
 
Hurray! Finally, Joe Sixpack finally gets DRM! The sooner the better, I say!

Re:Alright!

[gad_zuki!]

>Finally, Joe Sixpack finally gets DRM! The sooner the better, I say!

Joe and Jane Sixpack have been getting DRM since the opening of the iTunes store and they love it. The idea that the common person will stand up against copyright controls is a little naive. Heck, some of them are looking forward to rebuying their movies and music in the new formats.

Re:Alright!

[no reason to be here]

Joe and Jane Sixpack have been getting DRM since the opening of the iTunes store and they love it.

For starters, I don't know that I accept that statement at face value. But even more salient to the discussion at hand, FairPlay is not obtrusive or cumbersome to the typical user; however, much of the DRM associated with nascent digital media formats and Vista is obtrusive and cumbersome for almost all users. That's a big difference - perhaps enough of a one to actually make a difference in how Mr. and Mrs. Sixpack react.

As a side note, I don't know who the Sixpacks are, but I'm amazed at the amount of technology that they possess and use in there everyday lives, yet still have such a poor grasp and understanding of the issues.

Re:Alright!

[cheater512]

Why is this post modded 'Insightful'? It should be modded 'Depressing'.

Re:Alright!

[westlake]

Heck, some of them are looking forward to rebuying their movies and music in the new formats.

It surprises you that a sci-fi Geek with a plasma TV would be willing to pay Amazon.com $20 for Forbidden Planet in pristine HD digital restoration?

Re:Alright!

[redcane]

I have witnessed the phenomenon of people getting exciting about companies screwing them (e.g. making them rebuy in a new format). Every time I come across it, it truly astounds me. I wish I could get a brainscan, or something that would let me understand the thought process that produces this...

Re:Alright!

[sponga]

I know Joe Sixpack and he doesn't care for anything you had to say there; they just don't care about any of it and use it fine.

Been running Vista RTM perfectly fine and can use all my old media just like I did in XP; everything is the same and nothing is being probed by Microsoft or any other fear mongering stuff that has been said before.
Don't be afraid everything works fine and is just a little more organized; WMP11 works fine does not DRM my mp3's/video and the ripping/burning works fine on the program. Media Player Classic and all my other video/DVD/CD ripping software works fine like before.

Re:Alright!

[westlake]

I don't know who the Sixpacks are, but I'm amazed at the amount of technology that they possess and use in there everyday lives, yet still have such a poor grasp and understanding of the issues.

or perhaps it could just be that the Sixpacks have different issues and values than the Geek, that they tend to look at and exploit new technologies in fundamentally different ways.

Re:Alright!

[malfunct]

That won't sink vista though I don't think. Nothing I've seen in vista prevents any of my old stuff from working and if the new stuff sucks due to drm it may well sink but I still am unlikely to unintall vista to put xp back on the box and likely if its a new machine I won't even have vista to put on it.

Re:Alright!

[mattgreen]

Care to give us concrete examples, backed up by external sources that show us how the DRM associated with Vista is obtrusive and cumbersome for almost all users? You sounded very sure of yourself, so that must mean you have this sort of thing.

Re:Alright!

[Anonymous Coward]

FairPlay is not obtrusive or cumbersome to the typical user; however, much of the DRM associated with nascent digital media formats and Vista is obtrusive and cumbersome for almost all users.

In other words, when companies other than Apple use DRM its evil, but iTunes and every other DRM infested garbage that Apple puts out is ok. Thanks Apple fanboi.

No matter what company - DRM IS WRONG!!

Re:Alright!

[SeaFox]

As a side note, I don't know who the Sixpacks are, but I'm amazed at the amount of technology that they possess and use in there everyday lives, yet still have such a poor grasp and understanding of the issues.

You should try working in internet technical support. It's amazing all the different technologies consumers use these days they know nothing about. VoIP, VPN, streaming media, some they use because their workplace makes them, some because they're "keeping up with the Joneses" some because the salesmen promised it would save them lots of money.

I have several times talked to people who insist they don't have a wireless router and their computer and modem are the only devices they have, and when I have them actually follow the Ethernet cable out of the back of the modem they suddenly locate some new box they claim they have never seen before!

I fail to understand how people can be so oblivious as to miss an electronic device they don't recognize in their home. Wouldn't one be a little concerned about a box their have never seen hooked up to their PC and their internet service given how paranoid some are about viruses?

Re:Alright!

[James McGuigan]

For a geek, who understands what everything is, you take a whitelist aproach to boxes in your house. If you don't know what something is, your first instinct is to read up on it.

As a non-geek, all these electronic devices are just black boxes (even if they are painted white), it has something to do with the computer or that interweb thingy... so if it ain't broke and ain't causing any other problems then just leave it well alone.

Re:Alright!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jane Sixpack

o.O? Sounds like a girlfriend I once had... *shudder*

Re:Alright!

[Grishnakh]

I and maybe even the OP agree that DRM is wrong. However, he's looking at it from the typical user's point of view. Apple DRM, to most people, isn't a big problem because they're able to play their iTMS-purchased music on their iPods and computers without any trouble, and (so I've read) it's not hard to transfer songs to different computers in case you change computers or whatever. I don't like it, and I wouldn't buy into such a system, but I can see how many less-principled people would accept this.

Contrast this to other DRM restrictions, like Zune's 3-play-or-3-day wireless transfer idea, or other more restrictive systems. Things like that will probably annoy Joe & Jane Sixpack pretty quickly, or so we hope, unlike Apple's DRM which seems to not be so onerous as to annoy a lot of people.

It's not the company behind the DRM, it's how restrictive the DRM is to normal people.

yes no maybe fud notfud ponies

[Quantam]

That's about all I have to say on the matter.

Re:yes no maybe fud notfud ponies

[PsychicX]

I also think it's worth pointing out that the Slashdot headline (though not the actual text of the post) deviates somewhat from the article. TFA is not talking about Vista failing -- which is what's implied by the post title -- but rather the failure of the DRM technologies in Vista, and thus the failure of next-gen formats.

Re:yes no maybe fud notfud ponies

[jibjibjib]

Should it not be "pwnies"?

Game Over

[Anonymous Coward]

If a system is tampered with -- for example, if the hard drive is removed and placed in a different machine -- TPM detects the tampering and prevents the drive from being unencrypted.

Half-way through first page and Vista's a non-starter for me. And I resent the word "tampering".

Re:Game Over

[jibjibjib]

But Win98 had that years ago.

When I moved my Win98 hard drive from one box to another, it booted up, detected a new IDE bus chipset, and tried to install drivers for it, from the IDE CD-ROM drive, which was on the IDE bus, which it didn't have drivers for.

Why would anyone have a problem with hardware DRM?

[Zero__Kelvin]

A TPM microchip embedded on the PC's motherboard stores unique system identifiers along with the BitLocker decryption keys. If a system is tampered with -- for example, if the hard drive is removed and placed in a different machine -- TPM detects the tampering and prevents the drive from being unencrypted.

Great idea! This way if my Motherboard dies, my data essentially dies with it. I'm always looking for ways to increase the impact fanout of my systems failure modes :-)

That will never be the explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista will probably not catch on quickly, and DRM will be part of the reason. But the consumers who don't buy it will say "it's too hard", rather than articulating some kind of principled objection to DRM. The DRM will be part of what makes it annoying, which will simply slow people's switchover from XP/etc.

Re:That will never be the explanation

[pilkul]

Oh, I think consumers are perfectly capable of telling apart intentionally crippled software from accidental problems. There are telltale signs when a device goes out of its way to stop working.

Re:That will never be the explanation

[Weedlekin]

"There are telltale signs when a device goes out of its way to stop working."

It's the little messages like "Windows has determined that you are a thieving bastard. Your local law enforcement agencies have been informed" that tend to give it away.

Directions on Microsoft ???

[Lord Grey]

... Rosoff, lead analyst at research firm Directions On Microsoft, asserts ...

I originally had no intention of looking at this article. Then I saw the above snippet in the post and felt compelled to find out what a "Directions on Microsoft" is. They have an About Us page, it turns out. Their first entry is:

Directions on Microsoft is the only INDEPENDENT organization in the world devoted exclusively to tracking Microsoft. We've studied Microsoft since 1992. Nobody knows the company better.

Our team of Microsoft experts provides clear, concise, and actionable analysis of shifts in Microsoft strategy, Microsoft product and technology roadmaps, delivery schedules, organizational changes, marketing initiatives, and licensing and other policies so you can quickly assess how they impact your business.

Thousands of companies worldwide--including corporate purchasers of Microsoft products, system integrators, software vendors, hardware manufacturers, network operators, venture capitalists, and financial analysts--trust Directions on Microsoft for accurate and unbiased Microsoft research and analysis to guide their strategic decisions.

I knew that Microsoft supported, in one way or another, a lot of organizations around the world but this takes the cake. A professional, corporate stalker? The world must be coming to an end sooner than I thought.

Re:Directions on Microsoft ???

[jt2377]

why not? MS is still the biggest commerical software company there is. whatever they plan to release will have an ripple effect on other software vendors. why do you think Symantec and McAfee are crying and moaning about Vista's security center and MS's AV software.

Re:Directions on Microsoft ???

[KKlaus]

I don't really see what the problem is. It would be weird if they were "stalking" hanaford's (which is a mid size grocery store chain if you don't know). But consider that at a market cap of 286 billion dollars, Microsoft is larger and more powerful than many nations, and all of a sudden that level of attention doesn't seem so unreasonable.

Re:Directions on Microsoft ???

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish they had named themselves "Directions Regarding Microsoft" for the +1 irony.

yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[Kpau]

Yet another article that reminds me to get off my butt and convert everything in my house to Ubuntu except for the game machines. We each have two computers (one work, one game) and a few servers. They're all homebuilt. The game machines I'll grudgingly leave as XPsp2 boxes ... but it leaves the annoying thought that they'll force an upgrade to Vista down the road because the new games will require DirectX 10. At that point I may take up knitting.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[cloricus]

You never know... By the time the game industry is dx10 mainstream WINE may support it well. WINEs implimentation of dx7/8 is going well and dx9 is getting better all the time. A recent post in the WINEhq newsletter also suggested that adding support for dx10 once 7/8/9 were working nicely would be a doable affair. So in the end you may be able to play more of your Windows games than you can under Windows ;) ...Just like the current state of programs (yes you can run more Windows programs under Linux than under Windows if you include win 3.11 to xp sp2!).

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[Anonymous Coward]

You joke, but games are already "good enough" in the graphics department, and the important stuff (scripting, ai, and level/encounter/quest design) right now need a massive amount of work. Unless dx10 comes with magical AI with 'do what I mean mode' and prevents level designers from writing buggy checkpoints, waypoints, interaction scripts, and objectives then I can't see that it will have anything to offer the world. I have a top of the line gaming pc and I still turn off a fair amount of dx9 fluff to get a playable game.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[gt_mattex]

Microsoft can help you with that!

http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/148095-ebook.htm

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[kfg]

At that point I may take up knitting.

That's what I'm doing tonight. I highly recommend it. A bit of weaving wouldn't hurt either.

KFG

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[Kpau]

I completely agree with that ... graphics are not the weak point in gaming anymore. But I can visualize situations where some "must have" game-app will be designed with DirectX 10 (because Microsoft gave them buckets of money). Last time I paid attention DX10 was not going to be offered on XP, only on Vista. ah well, if NWN 2 pans out (module infinity) and I still have paper rpgs then we may witness a collective interwoven corporate mass suicide when (southpark ref) everyone goes outside to play :)

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Ubuntu can't play protected HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs at all, so what are you talking about?
If you don't like DRM, just don't play DRM content. Vista will play non-DRM'ed content just as well as Ubuntu. But Vista will play DRM'ed content as well, unlike Ubuntu. Seems like Vista has the edge here.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[TheNetAvenger]

dx10 mainstream WINE may support it well

I hope you are right; however, I have a bit of concern for this happening. DirectX 10 not only opens up the paradox of the pixel/vertex shader pipelines, but is also draws on a new device driver model that pushes GPUs to multi-task and share GPU RAM seamlessly with the System RAM.

If DirectX 10 wasn't tied to the WDDM, there would be a better shot, however for now I think the best we can expect for quite some time is DirectX9. However, give open source a few years to catch up to the multi-tasking GPU driver models, and then it might be possible.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[Anonymous Coward]

knitting already in KDE

I'd say make the switch already

P.S.
Don't knock it till you've tried it

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[AVonGauss]

If you can write a game to run under Windows w/ DirectX 10 - you can provide a compatibility layer for it through Wine - the only question will be the performance.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[xebecv]

Same thing was about DVD and their CSS protection. Do you recall what have happened to them in Linux?

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[TheNetAvenger]

If you can write a game to run under Windows w/ DirectX 10 - you can provide a compatibility layer for it through Wine - the only question will be the performance.

This is not what I am saying. One reason DirectX10 is tied to Vista is the WDDM (Windows Display Driver Model).

Unlike any other Video driver technology, and past the DirectX10 features, DirectX10 not only uses but also relies on the WDDM in Vista that introduces new features that DirectX10 EXPECTS to be there. One of them is the WDDM's ability to share system RAM with the GPU and also to multi-task the GPU. The sharing of the RAM is the most important as Vista's WDDM, even with older DirectX 9-7 games, prioritize and place things normally only put in the GPU RAM into System RAM if they are not speed related items, yet the game sees them as part of the GPU RAM.

This is actually a very complex process, and DirectX 10 assumes and works with the WDDM, in other words DirectX10 'knows' that this is happening and is further optimized and designed to work with the WDDM based on this. Games designed around DirectX10 should also expect this to be happening and be built to tell the WDDM what to load into what RAM, etc.

So it is a lot more than just emulating the DirectX features or APIs when you are dealing with DirectX10.

Check on MS's site on DirectX10 or even read here on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct3D

Take care...

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[StikyPad]

By the time the game industry is dx10 mainstream WINE may support it well.

Ah man, that was the best laugh I've had all day. Thanks!

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[AVonGauss]

Thanks for the link, but I already do have a bit of understanding about the subject... ;) I wasn't trying to imply it's an easy task, especially when most of the people doing the development on WINE are volunteers and have regular full-time jobs. What I was trying to say is that if I'm XYZ game developer, I have a certain API that I write my code to use and if that API is known then a compatibility layer can be written - the question would become one of performance. One way performance could easily be a concern is if the native implementation is able to perform something with hardware (GPU) assistance and the compatibility layer must perform the same action on the shared CPU. At the end of the day, it really is just about implementing the API exposed to the applications (games) and providing the same expected result, whether that be a rendering instruction or memory mapping.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[chgros]

the paradox of the pixel/vertex shader pipelines
Maybe you meant paradigm? (as in "paradigm shifting"...)

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[BalkanBoy]

Already did that. All Ubuntu Edgy Eft - about the only thing I do not have is Skype Webcam support - my mom uses Skype since we live an ocean apart to communicate with me so it's nice to be able for her to see me. Logitech has no Linux drivers for the QuickCam Pro 5000. Other than that I have everything I am interested in running on a desktop which is virtually flawless (pretty too). For the rare occasion I need to play a game or two, I have dual booting into WinXPPro set up. I was thinking of buying Cedega, but that sounds a little dicey even though they have a lot of games working.

While I understand that keeping the legacy Windows baggage around forever is required for most companies, it isn't so for me, a home user. The change starts at home. Now if people would only try out Ubuntu and see what I'm talking about .... It's easier to install than Windows too :).

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[jibjibjib]

I agree. Games don't need better graphics. Especially when marginally better graphics need a GPU 3 times more expensive, which will be obsolete within months of being released.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[jimicus]

yes you can run more Windows programs under Linux than under Windows if you include win 3.11 to xp sp2!

Maybe, but here in the real world I'm more interested in continuing to run a program which I've been using for 2-3 years, not 12-15 years.

Re:yet another article that says "get off my butt"

[danpsmith]

Just like the current state of programs (yes you can run more Windows programs under Linux than under Windows if you include win 3.11 to xp sp2!).

I find this statement hard to believe, especially because Windows has native support going back a long ways and you can still find emulators (which essentially is what Linux is doing to run Windows programs) and other hacks in order to get older stuff (such as DOS games) working in Windows. Just because it doesn't natively support all windows apps, doesn't mean Linux wins in this regard, because Linux doesn't natively support more windows apps either, it also requires addons. If you can do it in Wine in Linux, you better believe someone found a way to do it in Windows.

should I be buying xp then?

[bombastinator]

Exactly how annoying is this stuff? I've been looking at buying a new laptop, but I thought I should hold out for vista. Should I be buying th xp machine instead?

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[nine-times]

Yes. In fact, it might be worth paying for the $500 entry into the corporate version, just so they can't cut you off of their activation scheme, forcing you to upgrade, if you ever need to reformat your drive. It's pretty much that bad.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[Anonymous Coward]

haven't you heard of linux? On a more serious note, I have tried Vista RC2 and, trust me, average user won't notice any changes other than it being more eye candy and resource hogger. Why do you want your OS to use up all your resources when you can use them for more useful computing? Or if your computer is staying idle, let it slip into lower clock rate to save energy.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[TheNetAvenger]

Yes. In fact, it might be worth paying for the $500 entry into the corporate version, just so they can't cut you off of their activation scheme, forcing you to upgrade, if you ever need to reformat your drive. It's pretty much that bad.


Um, pushing some FUD yourself?

Vista's WGA and DRM are virtually no more intrusive than WindowsXP, and even with the EULA crap, MS has revised the EULA to be as forgiving or even more forgiving than WindowsXP.

Vista is not going to lock you out. Even with WindowsXP, we had customers that had activated a single copy over 20 times on various hardware (illegally), and MS would still issue them a new activation when they called and never raised an eye.

All the stories of MS forcing Windows to quit working is false. Even on people that had very noticeably cracked or hacked corporate versions of XP, all WGA did was annoy the hell out of them with pop ups telling them the computer wasn't legal. Vista will go one step further and only allow a Safe mode.

However if you are buying a computer with an OEM or Retail Vista copy license, you are MS's new best friend and they would rather cut off their nose than to even accidentally screw with you. The absolute worst thing that could happen is you wouldn't be able to activate it online if you do reinstall it several times, and then you just end up with the voice automation system or even a person, and they will give you a new activation.

Now if you are running a known hacked version, sure they will put Vista into safe mode and make you buy a copy or contact them, and they don't even prosecute people, they just ask you buy it, or report who sold you the hacked copy. (And if you do the later, they give you Vista for free even in case you really did get ripped off.)

Trust me on this...

So can we leave the FUD alone for awhile, this is really annoying.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[BuddhistPirate]

Either pay the MS tax and get whatever laptop you want and try out a Linux Distro (reccomend ubuntu) or Pay the Apple Tax (expensive hardware) and enjoy OSX Either way you'll be better off than waiting for Vista's amazing new "We put DRM on all of your files, so YOU don't have to! (and we copyright them so you can't use them any other computer, or brain or thought)"feature.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would check with the company selling you the laptop, but I believe that most (if not all) computers shipping with XP after October 26 will come with a voucher for a free upgrade to Vista. If you have XP Home or MCE you get Vista Home and if you have XP Pro you get Vista Business. I don't know if they'll require you to send in your XP cd as part of the deal though.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[AusIV]

This might be slightly unrelated, buy my father has a Windows 98 machine that he runs some basic software on, and it suddenly became worthless when Microsoft dropped support for it early. As a result, he can't find any anti-virus companies that still support it, so he's cut it off from the web for fear of it being rendered useless by viruses. If Microsoft were to drop XP support early (and you can't suggest it's an impossibility), and you had to reformat, Microsoft might be able to force an upgrade by not supporting an activation. Buying a corporate version would insure against that.

While I don't think the grandparent post articulated their point very well, I don't think they're the troll you're making them out to be.

My advice for the great grandparent: Unless everything has to be squeaky clean, use Linux. As long as a piece of media doesn't have to phone home to get encryption keys, the DRM will be broken and you'll have greater freedom using your device on Linux than you would with XP or Vista.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[heinousjay]

Nothing like excessive hyperbole to nullify whatever point you were making

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[Baricom]

I know Microsoft's promises aren't worth much, but just for the record, they've said that they "will not use activation as a tool to force people to upgrade" their OS, and that they "will likely provide an update that turns activation off at the end of [Windows XP]'s lifecycle". See http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/activation_faq.msp x.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[Anonymous Coward]

microsoft intentionaly borked windows 98 with the IE6 upgrade to make people upgrade.

people only rember the unstable blue screeness of windows 98. but if u patch it with the ie5 dlls it fixes all the problems. strange huh. http://www.frankprovo.com/win98ie6filesproblem.htm

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[vertinox]

Exactly how annoying is this stuff? I've been looking at buying a new laptop, but I thought I should hold out for vista. Should I be buying th xp machine instead?

My suggestion is that if you have the money is to buy a Mac Intel Laptop.

Mostly because it will keep your options open and that you can choose from Mac OS X, WinXP, Vista, and Ubuntu.

Chances are you'll like OS X more than vista for your work applications (surfing net, email, MS word etc) and not deal with shit breaking and security issues (Windows in general) and if you really want to play games you can just boot into WinXP or Vista.

Re:should I be buying xp then?

[TheNetAvenger]

This might be slightly unrelated, buy my father has a Windows 98 machine that he runs some basic software on, and it suddenly became worthless when Microsoft dropped support for it early. As a result, he can't find any anti-virus companies that still support it, so he's cut it off from the web for fear of it being rendered useless by viruses. If Microsoft were to drop XP support early (and you can't suggest it's an impossibility), and you had to reformat, Microsoft might be able to force an upgrade by not supporting an activation. Buying a corporate version would insure against that.
While I don't think the grandparent post articulated their point very well, I don't think they're the troll you're making them out to be.

My advice for the great grandparent: Unless everything has to be squeaky clean, use Linux. As long as a piece of media doesn't have to phone home to get encryption keys, the DRM will be broken and you'll have greater freedom using your device on Linux than you would with XP or Vista.


So do you install a 1998 version of Linux for your father in this instance?

There is no reason anyone should be 'happy' with Win98, and no reason MS should continue to support it, especially when you consider it is a complete different architecture and fundamentally any retroactive patches for it have to be built around the DOS/Win9x model instead of NT. You don't see Apple offering support for System 8 or 9 do you? Apple doesn't even fully support early versions of OSX, and they are les than 5 years old.

So what happens when MS stops supporting WindowsXP? (Which will be several years from now, considering SP3 isn't even on the table until a late 2007 or 2008 release). At that point, any computer still running XP, even the 200mhz system like at my grandparents house that is 10 years old, I could probably hack up the 100-200 bucks to upgrade their mainboard and Video or even buy a new bare bones system from Dell or Compaq for 300 bucks at Walmart and easily run Vista on it, and even get a copy of Vista with the computer purchase. This is not a lot of money, computers are not the 1000-3000 investment they were 10-15 years ago, even for one that meets the 'top end' Vista specifications.

How can anyone expect a computer to be a life long appliance? Even a VCR dies after 10 years usually, and most people then go out and buy their first DVD player. It is how technology works, and computers are NO different.

As for you comment about Linux is DRM free. This isn't 100% accurate nor even a good way to view Linux. In one way there is no active DRM in most distributions, but you also can't take advantage of any DRM content it lacks support for. Go to cinemanow.com and rent a movie on Linux without having any DRM restriction in place. It just won't happen. (Just like if you don't have the digital box from your cable company you are not going to get Video on Demand... A better word for DRM would be 'controlled access content')

I am in no way a fan of DRM, but there are business models that just WOULD NOT exist if DRM didn't offer content providers protection. The only DRM service I have been a fan of is audible.com, and before them, it was impossible to just download the latest audio book. Their DRM also works well, but has traveled with me over the years not restricting my access to my audio book library. If I only used Linux, I would not even have the chance of using them without also having a 'licensed' Windows VM running somewhere.

So here is the problem if OSS completely rejects all DRM, they will once again be left out of any new content that is based on it. This is really bad thinking. Linux should take the MS approach and 'allow' DRM if the companies won't allow their content to be distributed no matter what without it, while also trying to avoid DRM at all costs. Windows doesn't DRM anything nor does MS, as they actually help users run from it, but if a company won't let their audio book play or movie play without it, the DRM hooks are there so the user can '

Will consumers care?

[weinerofthemonth]

As long as the DRM is not intrusive, will consumers really care? Most people don't care if Microsoft checks to make sure their music file or movie is legal before it plays as long as they don't see it. As soon as the DRM causes false positives, erodes performance or become otherwise intrusive, people will go nuts. If done right, DRM could be here to stay. The problem is, none of the players have a clue how to do it right.

Re:Will consumers care?

[Kope]

I specifically use my computer to mix my own music. I have several thousands dollars invested in high end sound cards, mixers, etc.

My concern is a very simple one -- if I wish to mix my own music on Vista, will it be DRM free, or will simply using that OS taint my final release? The last thing I need is one of my two listeners not being able to play my cd or mp3s.

Re:Will consumers care?

[teamhasnoi]

IWBRV (I won't be running Vista), but just like the DRM on iTunes, YOU don't get the 'benefits' of DRM (restricting access), you just get the shaft if you buy something with DRM 'attached', as the deal you agreed to via EULA (I know, that's hilarious! Agree to something after I've bought it! HA!)

In any case, if you're serious about music on computers, you get your dedicated system set up (mine is XP sp2 with an Aardvark q10 (outta biz a few years ago) and Vegas - remove everything that isn't audio related, and call that an appliance. Don't change it, minus a few plugins (they don't usually mess it all up :)

If you want to mess with Vista, save up 400 bucks and buy some off the shelf deal with it preinstalled. I saw it in the flesh for the first time today, and thought, 'Wow. I've had all that since Tiger came out.' ha.

XP works great for music, as long as you don't do anything else. OS X is for everything else.

And music. :)

Re:Will consumers care?

[TheNetAvenger]

See here is where the FUD and articles like this are harmful.

If you buy music from an online store, and I don't care if you are using OSX, WindowsXP, or Vista, it is going to have DRM.

If you are using CDs or songs you created, this means nothing to you, as Vista nor OSX nor WindowsXP give a crap.

So here is some advice, if you are into personal mixing, don't buy single tracks online, they are all going to be DRMed... However, if you do, you do realize you can burn them to an Audio CD, and then re-rip them back to the computer, and they will be DRM free? *wink

Take care.

Re:Will consumers care?

[supersat]

The big problem with the new DRM technologies is that it requires new hardware. Up until very recently, it was nearly impossible to get video cards that support HDCP. Even when the GPU claims to support HDCP, the cards usually lack the cryptographic keys to make it work. The situation is slightly better with monitors, but there's still a huge installed base of expensive LCDs that don't support it. Users are going to be very cranky if they suddenly find the content that they purchased won't play unless they replace their monitor and video card.

I really don't understand why the movie industry is so concerned about high-definition video being sent to the monitor in the clear. Pirates will settle for movies recorded by a video camera in a theater, so they probably won't mind a reduced-resolution rip. If anything, it's easier to pirate the down-sampled version, simply because the high-definition output uses so much bandwidth (1080i uses something like ~1.5 Gbps!).

Re:Will consumers care?

[AArmadillo]

I don't know exactly what you're doing so I can't say for sure, but if your input is non-DRM then the output will be non-DRM. Tracoding and encoding DRM-free content yeilds a DRM free output file in the release candidate.

Re:Will consumers care?

[bblboy54]

....The problem is, none of the players have a clue how to do it right.

Are you implying that they have a clue in any manner?

Re:Will consumers care?

[drsmithy]

My concern is a very simple one -- if I wish to mix my own music on Vista, will it be DRM free, [...]

Yes (unless you choose to DRM it yourself).

[...] or will simply using that OS taint my final release?

No.

(Another example of how Microsoft's "FUD" pales into insignificance compared to the "FUD" that gets directed against them.)

Re:Will consumers care?

[Pofy]

>Most people don't care if Microsoft checks to make
>sure their music file or movie is legal before it
>plays as long as they don't see it.

So Microsoft would become the new world police deciding what is legal and what is not? How can they decide the legalness based on the laws in different countries of whatever you do? That is the problem which will cause false positives for sure and why it won't work. I just can't see how such a system would work out without at the very least give each country the exact same law and making the laws in such a way that it is very simple for a computer to decide on any action if it violates the law or not. I am sure anyone managing to create such a system would become quite rich/famous/whatever.

Re:Will consumers care?

[ccp]

I think you understand the situation exactly backwards. Lets see...

As long as the DRM is not intrusive, will consumers really care? Most people don't care if Microsoft checks to make sure their music file or movie is legal before it plays as long as they don't see it.

Yes, they'll care. Because most music and movies of most people are illegal copies.
If you believe Slashdotters who say they only rip their paid for CDs and DVDs, I have a bridge to sell.
 

As soon as the DRM causes false positives, erodes performance or become otherwise intrusive, people will go nuts.

The problem with DRM isn't false positives, but true positives. People will run away from anything that prevent them using their not-really-legal copies, just like we buy no-name chinese DVD players with no zone enforcement and Divx.

If done right, DRM could be here to stay. The problem is, none of the players have a clue how to do it right.

DRM is impossible to do right. The nearer some corporation is to perfect control, the faster people will leave the product.
Perfect DRM is self-defeating. It's not here, and certainly will not stay.

Cheers,
CC

[ Reply to This ]

hmmm....

[Anonymous Coward]

I can pay an arm and a leg to be treated like a criminal or...
I can pay less and have freedom...

Tough decision...

Re:hmmm....

[grcumb]

I can pay an arm and a leg to be treated like a criminal or... I can pay less and have freedom... Tough decision...

Tragically, yes, it is. For some reason people find it easier to remain complacent about their environment right up until the very moment when backing away from their mistakes becomes impossible. Human history is really just a litany of such failures. Santayana was just gilding the lily when he stated that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The ironic and painful truth is that the first lesson of history is that nobody ever learns from history.

People will continue to acquiesce to this charade of 'Rights Management' right up until the point when it becomes too painful to bear, but there's no way to go back to how things were before. I only hope that mavericks like us won't be caught up in their quagmire.

Re:hmmm....

[Anonymous Coward]

erm.... I believe it's:

I can pay an arm and a leg to be treated like a criminal or...
I can pay less^H^H^H^Hnothing and have freedom...

Re:hmmm....

[Jesus_666]

In some cases it is difficult. Some people take their gaming very seriously and they might be willing to put up with anything if it means they can play the latest games.

I will react to Vista by buying a PlayStation 2 (no typo) and maybe a Wii once the price is below 150 EUR, but I'm determined to avoid Vista. Most people aren't. And it's still tempting; console gaming inherently lacks the customizing aspect PC gaming allows for.

Re:hmmm....

[Jesus_666]

Oops, forgot to conntect my point to yours. I wanted to say that this isn't always complacency but a "lesser of two evils" situation where "can't play games" is seen as more evil than "both free and regular use are artificially limited".

Re:hmmm....

[maxume]

I like the formulation from Andromeda(yeah, yeah, but it's at least underrated):

http://www.ladymaigrey.com/episodequotes1.html

(Second down on the left)

Don't think it will take out new media though

[SuperKendall]

I don't think failure of DRM on the PC (which I agree is likley) will take out the new media.

For one thing, the ICT flag (which controls the ability to display high-resolution video on and unprotected display) is off in media and will be off for some time, so users will not notice that particular bit of DRM,

Anotehr aspect is that most video players will probably be dedicated HD media players, like the PS3 (at first) and later on standalone players. So people will not notice the restrctions around the media as much on those platforms.

Lastly, computer owners are really going to embrace a recordable disc that holds an order of magnitude more data than a hard disk, and relish the ability to burn home HD movies.

So I think DRM will experience some pains in the PC (and even the Mac, depending on how much they fall in line) world, but it still will not sink the formats.

Re:Don't think it will take out new media though

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM is not about music and video.

This cannot be said enough. DRM is about ensuring that your computer is running software of which company X approves... and the hardware (in the form of Trusted Computing) will verify that for them. Once you think through the implications of that, then you'll understand why DRM is a much wider subject than simply CAN I COPY MY DVDs.

DRM in the form imagined by Microsoft/Intel/Sun/IBM/AMD (and the rest of the Trusted Computing mafia) is thoroughly Orwellian in nature. It involves the centralised control of software, the ability to execute code in secret, and the ability to FORCE you to run particular pieces of code. Control of music and video is just a small, but fortunate, byproduct of this -- one that Microsoft is more than happy to sell to the content industry.

Re:Don't think it will take out new media though

[SleepyHappyDoc]

For one thing, the ICT flag (which controls the ability to display high-resolution video on and unprotected display) is off in media and will be off for some time, so users will not notice that particular bit of DRM

An analogy that describes how I see this goes something like "There's a firing squad deployed outside your front door to shoot at you, but for the first little while they'll be shooting blanks, so you don't have to worry about getting killed."

Once the means are entrenched, you can be sure they'll be used.

Re:Don't think it will take out new media though

[Dunbal]

DRM in the form imagined by Microsoft/Intel/Sun/IBM/AMD (and the rest of the Trusted Computing mafia) is thoroughly Orwellian in nature.

      I agree. With every new generation we see the OS adding another layer between the user and his computer. Remember when we had to fiddle around with interrupts, extended and expanded memory, protected mode and stuff to get things done? Then came Win32 - and now we didn't fool around with nuts and bolts of the OS anymore - we had to learn the "Windows API" and _usually_ this API did the work for us. Then more levels get added on - COM objects, and MFC. Direct X. In some respects it has made programming a lot easier. But now we don't deal directly with our machines - Microsoft has officially set itself up as the middle-man.

      I personally envision that the next logical step will be to prevent regular folks from programming altogether. I mean, if you're interested in programming why you must be trying to "hack" your system, or surely you're trying to write a virus, a bot, or a worm. Leave the programming to the "professionals", send us your data, and we'll manipulate it for you and send you the results. And charge you every time. I don't think I'll be supporting this upgrade path.

Re:Don't think it will take out new media though

[jibjibjib]

And in a few more generations of computing, everyone will have thin clients running software-as-a-service provided by Microsoft at a monthly fee, with a TPM stopping them from running any alternative software, and the MAFIAA will have convinced the government that only pirates and hackers (hackers in the evil h4xx0r sense) would ever want to run their own software anyway.

It will become illegal for anything more powerful than a microcontroller to be sold without a TPM built-in. The Internet will disappear except for the sites that can afford the Tubes Tax, which will all be controlled by big corporations. Sound recording devices will be banned altogether to remove the analog hole, and no one will be able to make music unless they have a contract with Sony.

The information apocalypse will be nigh.

The big corporations will realise too late that they have taken their quest for control too far. Computers will become almost useless. The monopolies will collapse as the Joe Sixpacks of the world rise up in rebellion. The governments, in league with the MAFIAA, will feel the threat to their power, and send out the army to crush the rebellion with unreasonable and disproportionate force. Society collapses.

When the dust settles, the few survivors will crawl out of the rubble and begin to rebuild. They will learn from the lessons of the past. There will be no more corporations, no more "intellectual property" rights, no more closed source, no more DRM. Linux will spread throughout the world, and we shall all be saved.

Re:Don't think it will take out new media though

[nosferatu1001]

"

Lastly, computer owners are really going to embrace a recordable disc that holds an order of magnitude more data than a hard disk, and relish the ability to burn home HD movies.

"

ERM - no.

since when can these disks hold 5TB? Given that 500Gig drives are commonplace now...

Short answer: No

[Sycraft-fu]

Longer answer: No, because Vista doesn't mandate the DRM. You can use all your un-DRM'd media just fine in Vista. You can make new un-DRM'd media in Vista. You can even make it in new formats. Vista doesn't care. So while a DRM'd up format might fail, it won't hurt Vista at all because Vista doesn't mandate you use DRM, just provides it for you to use. Also, it's not like the DRM'd content will magically work un-DRM'd on older OSes. You'll have to have all the DRM support to use it.

So either way it works for Vista. If the DRM fails, oh well, some wasted development money I guess but the OS works as it always has. If it succeds, just another reason for people to upgrade to Vista.

Re:Short answer: No

[MeNeXT]

I don't think you get it. The people who loaded their system with their friends XP who copy movies they rent will be affected. That's how I read it. Now that will affect most people I know who run XP.

It's just funny that way....

Re:Short answer: No

[QuantumG]

I don't think so. The norm currently is that if you ask me for a copy of the new albulm I just bought I might umm and ahh over it for 10 minutes, but ultimately I have the choice of giving you a copy. I might feel guilty about it, because all that propaganda I've seen on tv tells me it is wrong, but I actually have the option of doing the "wrong" thing. But if you ask me for a copy and I say "can't, its copy protected" you might reply with "can't we crack it?" and then we'll go search the net for 20 minutes, not find anything, call our geeky friend and ask him and he might say "as yet, there is no crack for Microsoft's DRM" and by that point you and I will be looking at my computer like most geeks look at this stuff: proprietary software stops me from doing what I want. And that's it man, the geeks have won then, and Microsoft just don't get that.

Re:Short answer: No

[sponga]

Wrong.

I can still rip DVD's on my Vista RTM as I am running it right now. Majority 95% of my software works flawlessly just like in XP. Might wanna try it out before you bash it.

It is a small minority of people who are ripping the DVD's for their personal pleasure; the other majority do not care and the tech elite will go on to find another way to rip it if anything does happen.
Oh yah just use a legitimate copy also.

Re:Short answer: No

[Sparohok]

And that's it man, the geeks have won then, and Microsoft just don't get that.

There's a difference between being a geek and being a pirate.

Geeks are concerned that Microsoft's business practices stifle legitimate software innovation.

Pirates just want to copy shit for free.

You're talking about the latter, so please don't make it a geek thing.

Re:Short answer: No

[QuantumG]

No. Geeks care about freedom. And having Microsoft tell me what I can and can't do with my computer aint freedom.

Re:Short answer: No

[hopopee]

You might be interested to know that in other parts of the world it actually might be legal to take a few copies of a CD and pass them on to a friend. So, while in the US this copy-restriction might be lawful it is actually effectively denying lawful actions elsewhere in the world.

Oh, I forgot. Your laws are the only ones that matter these days.

Re:Short answer: No

[Sparohok]

You might be interested to know that in other parts of the world it actually might be legal to take a few copies of a CD and pass them on to a friend.

OK, I'll bite. Where?

(In the first world, please. There are countries where honor killings are legal, too.)

Re:Short answer: No

[Pofy]

>OK, I'll bite. Where?

One example: Sweden.

Re:Short answer: No

[JonJ]

And Norway.

Re:Short answer: No

[MeNeXT]

I'm not talking about past technology nor was the article. DRM is about HD-DVD, ZUNE and other stuff like that.

Re:Short answer: No

[Sparohok]

I'm hardly an expert, but a little research suggests that you are wrong. Sweden passed legislation in 2005 to enforce EU copyright directives that prohibit file sharing. These directives permit a variety of protected uses but none of them include giving physical copies of protected works to your friends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Copyright_Directiv e

In any case, my impression was that even prior to legislation enforcing this directive, the apparent legality of online file sharing in certain Scandinavian countries did not extend to physical copies of entire protected works. I'd be very interested in evidence to the contrary.

Re:Short answer: No

[Pofy]

>I'm hardly an expert, but a little research suggests that you are wrong.

Then you should read the Swedish copyright law (unless you know Swedish it would be hard though):

http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19600729.HTM

12 is the one making exceptions for copies made for private use. It was also changed last year to tighten what was allowed and what was not. The two changes made was first that the ammount of copies allowed under this was reduced. It is currently "några få" which probably is best translated as "a few". If you read the documents of the passing of the law, this should be read quite narrowly, like perhaps 2 or 3 copies at most. Previously, in part by precedence in the high court, it was a bit more. The other part was the narrowing to "private" use from "personal". Again, one should go to the documentation of the law makers to get the understanding how to interpret it. In the past, again through decisions in the high court of Sweden, it was basically that such copies that could be made and given away to family and closed friends in fact also included people in your class at school and also at work. One wanted to especially limit the work part so that such copies could not be used at work which is the main difference in the going from "personal" to private use. If you do know Swedish, I could give you a link to the 200+ pages document from the law makers that discuss the law in detial, including analysis of the EU directive. It should also be known that those documents, which is basically part of the proposal for the law passed to the "riksdagen", the govermental body elected by the people which passes laws, should be takes as part part, or rather as a guidance, to interpret the law. Courts will look at that doceumntation to understand the reasoning of the law makers.

So no, the law has not removed that possibility, it still exists, you can make a few copies for private use and it includes giving it away to family and close friends (not at work though). There are are some exceptions to this, for example software that is not allowed to copy at all. In addition, one removed a loop hole that basically allowed downloading on P2P networks (since the copy made was in fact for personal use) by adding a requirement that the original of the copies made under this paragraph could not have been made available to the public, or created in violation of 2, which is basically the one giving the copyright holder the excusive right to do so. This makes downloading and making a copy in most cases infringement. ONe could at least not use the "copy for private use" as a valid reason.

>These directives permit a variety of protected uses but none
>of them include giving physical copies of protected works to your friends.

Giving a copy to a family member or a close friend doens't fall under the distribution to the public and hence is not otherwise regulated by the copyright law. If the creation is OK, as it is explaned above, the giving of such a copy to a friend or family is OK which has been decided by the high court (not sure if that is the correct English translation but it is the highest court in Sweden) in Sweden.

>In any case, my impression was that even prior to legislation
>enforcing this directive, the apparent legality of online file
>sharing in certain Scandinavian countries did not extend to
>physical copies of entire protected works.

I think I explained most of it above. The loop hole was that creation of a copy for personal use was allowed. There were no actual requirement on the legalness of the original or in how it was made available to the public. This was added in the latest revision of the copyright law. It is worth notising that there was never any case taken to court actually sayig it was legal to make such personal copies but even the media industry was of the opinion that it would most likely be allowed. This is quite irellevant now with the newly add

Re:Short answer: No

[Sparohok]

Thank you very much for the detailed information. It sounds like a well founded law to me, providing reasonable flexibility without opening the door to rampant theft.

Short answers to Slashdot Questions

[vought]

Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up for Failure?

Yes.

This has been another episode of Short Answers to Slashdot Questions.

Why Vista and not OSX

[CrackedButter]

Why didn't the entertainment empires force this DRM crap on OSX in the same way, they should be small fry compared to Microsoft.

Re:Why Vista and not OSX

[QuantumG]

Cause Apple is already doing it themselves?

Re:Why Vista and not OSX

[henry7]

I think you've just answered your own question. Why bother with small fry?

Re:Why Vista and not OSX

[kfg]

Microsoft was "forced" into it like Br'er Rabbit was "forced" into the briar patch.

Controling the DRM and getting a cut of every media sale in the universe has been their long term strategy, for a long time.

KFG

Re:Why Vista and not OSX

[TheNetAvenger]

Why didn't the entertainment empires force this DRM crap on OSX in the same way, they should be small fry compared to Microsoft.


With regard to Music, OSX already has this. It is called iTunes and the Apple Music Store. OSX is very heavy into DRM, the only real difference here is Apple IMPOSES the DRM on THEMSELVES and they ONLY ALLOW THEMSELVES to sell the songs to their customers. (Which in my book is far and above just DRM, it is borderline consumer lockin that is fraud - since they DRM the OS, the software, the hardware they sell (iPod) and even the music DRM format themselves are Apple creations.)

If OSX wants to play HD movies, they will have to have the same DRM in hardware than Vista does, or they will NOT be able to play HD movies that are DRM protected. PERIOD. The difference here? OSX doesn't YET support HD Movies, so with the next Apple tax of $129 upgrade, you will get HD capabilities in OSX and also all the DRM fun that comes with it.

Re:Why Vista and not OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been asleep the past decade? Apple's software is full of digital restrictions:
- Mac DVD drives enforce region-coding
- DVD Player's window is hard (but not impossible) to record
- iTunes Music Store songs/movies/etc have DRM and only play under iTunes
- iPod has DRM so only Apple-purchased games will play
- Apple Macs now use DRM to prevent Mac OS from running on non-Apple hardware

If you think Apple hasn't been using DRM -- for music and movies and software -- you really haven't been paying attention.

cloaked

[pdwestermann]

as long as the consumer doesn't even know they are dealing with DRM, it wouldn't matter. your average person has no clue about digital rights management. its kind of silly to split hairs over DRM details when the target market doesnt even realize they will exist. Once it stops your average joe from doing something basic, then its starting to make a negative impact.

Re:cloaked

[basshedz2]

It already has though. My dad wanted to put one of Dido's albums on his ipod, but couldn't because of the drm (until we circumvented it - holding down the shift key or something).

Bet ya he wont check the cds he buys to make sure they're drm free from now on though. I think the real breaker for drm will be when the current generation of computers expires and people find out that suddenly their iTunes/Napster/Whatever_DRM_music_store tracks no longer play. Even then, assuming the stores make it (relatively) easy to retrieve purchased tracks i dont think your average consumer will care.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[zptao]

Vista can be reinstalled on a machine with changed components, such as a motherboard. It was on slashdot a bit ago. Less of the windows trolling, plz.

Re:yes no maybe fud notfud ponies ...and!

[dwandy]

itsatrap!

my vote counts?

[Eto_Demerzel79]

"Consumers are the final arbiters because they can vote with their wallets," Usher added. "This is as it should be in any well-functioning market, and we believe the improvements in Windows Vista play to this strength."

Usher assumes that those doing the voting comprehend the problem. Also, with billion dollar corporations voting with their wallets, does my vote truly count? This is a case where other companies such as Apple and (name your fav Linux distro here) have an opportunity to distinguish themselves. I would expect most non-slashdotters to not even give a second thought to purchasing Vista with a new PC or for a business unless their are other truly equal (in performance, ease of use, etc...) choices.

Re:my vote counts?

[mblase]

Usher assumes that those doing the voting comprehend the problem. Also, with billion dollar corporations voting with their wallets, does my vote truly count?

Sorry, are we still talking about Vista? Because this also sounds like you're criticizing the recent Senate/House election.

I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[QuantumG]

when people are actually forced to honour copyright they might actually start thinking about copyright, and that can only drive people not to want copyright.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Fulcrum of Evil]

This has nothing to do with copyright. DRM based solutions are not bound to the terms of copyright so much as whatever the producers decide to allow. That means that if we retroactively set copyright to 5 years for software, DRM is unaffected. Likewise, what motivation does the content provider have to help you when the DRM eats your legal stuff? They'd rather you buy it again.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[McGiraf]

With unbreakable DRM who needs copyright laws to prevent you from copying stuff?

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[QuantumG]

Yeah, well obviously people would be thinking they don't want DRM.. that's a given, but the general argument as to why DRM is "ok" is this whole "it's only enforcing copyright" argument.. and that argument might get some people thinking.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[PCM2]

when people are actually forced to honour copyright they might actually start thinking about copyright, and that can only drive people not to want copyright.

I fail to see the logic there. I've done a lot of thinking about copyright and I want it.

Copyright is very important. The GPL, among other things, depends on copyright.

Corporations lobbying the government to have grossly exaggerated term lengths for copyrights, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[QuantumG]

Meh, if it wasn't for copyright, we wouldn't need the GPL.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Dunbal]

Copyright is very important.

      I agree with you. Copyright is essential, in the form of: it applies to the original AUTHORS only. Not the corporation - the HUMANS involved in the creation. It can only be transferred by DEATH of the author to his/her human heirs. It protects from duplication for COMMERICAL gain. It allows for fair use. And it's for a small, LIMITED amount of time. Time enough to make a reasonable profit - a generation - but not forever. After that it should be public domain. There should be a use it or lose it clause too, like in trademarks.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Dunbal]

unbreakable DRM

      I know you were probably being sarcastic, but:

      No such thing. No matter how smart you think you are - there is always someone smarter than you. It's just a matter of time.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[soft_guy]

What happens to the GPL when the copyright on open source software expires? As soon as linus dies, then the 95 year clock starts ticking...

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Mr2001]

Exactly. "The GPL depends on copyright" is a big red herring when it comes up in discussions on copyright, because the GPL turns copyright against itself - that's what "copyleft" means. It essentially uses copyright law to force you to give your users the same rights they'd have anyway if copyright didn't exist in the first place.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Nasarius]

And how does that work exactly? If there were no copyright, everything would essentially be public domain, and you could not require others to release their changes. They wouldn't need to obey your fancy GPL to redistribute, so it wouldn't do a damn thing. Anyone could take your code, do whatever they like, release only the binaries, and that would be that.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[drsmithy]

This has nothing to do with copyright.

It has everything to do with copyright. The whole point of DRM is taking the concept of copyright to its logical conclusion (ie: the "content creators" have the ultimate control over their "property"). Technology has just made that a lot easier.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[QuantumG]

Source aint important. It really isn't. There's a whole lot of companies these days (including Microsoft) that will give you source code along with binaries, but they don't give you permission to do anything with that source code, and that's what is important. Without copyright, I don't need their permission for source, or binaries, and without copyright they can't use the force of law to demand licensing fees, so they can't put as much resources into their software than we can put into open source. The result is plain for everyone to see, the software for which source code is readily available is better maintained and has better features than the software that doesn't. And that's without even mentioning the fact that good tools now exist to reverse engineer binaries into high level languages which can then cheaply be turned into good source code by collaborative processes.

Without copyright protection, proprietary software would wither and die, whereas even with no copyright protection, free software would continue to grow.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[drsmithy]

Corporations lobbying the government to have grossly exaggerated term lengths for copyrights, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

Not really, it's just an issue of semantics (the length of the copyright term). It's not a fundamentally different thing at all.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Fulcrum of Evil]

No, copyright is a legally granted monopoly. DRM is an attempt to control the use of a work directly.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Anonymous Coward]

With every citizen having a gun, who needs murder laws to prevent you from killing people?

Let the gun flamewar begin (again)!

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[jibjibjib]

Linus doesn't own the copyright though. IANAL, but wouldn't everyone who authored part of Linux have some rights to it?

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Pofy]

>What happens to the GPL when the copyright on open source software expires?

When copyright expires on a work, there is no longer any need to get the permissions GPL gives under certain conditions. So there is no need to agree to the GPL to, for example change and/or redistribute the work with or without the source. The same applies to any other work were copyright expires. The GPL is needed when there IS a copyright to be able to do some of the things that, during the copyright, is exclusive to the copyright holder.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[raxx7]

Wrong.

Without copyright, I could take a computer program whose source code is available, introduce some improvements and then distribute only the binaries while I make a business of supporting my improved version of the program.

GPL *forces* me to give the source code to whomever I give the binaries.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[alexgieg]

Without copyright, I could take a computer program whose source code is available, introduce some improvements and then distribute only the binaries while I make a business of supporting my improved version of the program.

Not exactly so. Without copyright yes, you would be able to withhold the original source code for your modifications, but not the disassembled source code, nor the decompiled one. The open-source community would have some work to recreate your code, but it would be feasible and, were your changes good enough to prompt this, made, don't have doubts on that.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[PCM2]

Not really, it's just an issue of semantics (the length of the copyright term). It's not a fundamentally different thing at all.

Sure it is. The grandparent was implying that no sane person wants copyrights. I'm telling you that I am perfectly sane and I do want them. I think the concept of copyright is perfectly reasonable and copyrights are beneficial to society. Grotesquely distorted copyright laws, on the other hand -- like most grotesquely distorted things, I suppose -- start to look ugly, but that seems to be a different issue.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[Mr2001]

Without copyright, I could take a computer program whose source code is available, introduce some improvements and then distribute only the binaries while I make a business of supporting my improved version of the program.

And then everyone who gets those binaries can disassemble them, find your changes, and introduce them back into the publically available source code. If you've obfuscated it well enough that that doesn't work, they can just reimplement your changes in the public branch... or distribute your binaries themselves and provide their own support. Next?

GPL *forces* me to give the source code to whomever I give the binaries.

Source code is nice but not necessary.

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[McGiraf]

Guns don't kill people! Lack of oxygen to the brain due to bleeding does .... whatever

Re:I so hope it doesn't "fail"

[McGiraf]

"No such thing. No matter how smart you think you are - there is always someone smarter than you. It's just a matter of time."

Not if you are smart enough to destroy the whole universe!

Muahahahaha!

Fooled me how many times now?

[Mateo_LeFou]

"Consumers are the final arbiters because they can vote with their wallets," Usher added. "This is as it should be in any well-functioning market, and we believe the improvements in Windows Vista play to this strength."

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[vought]

Vista can be reinstalled on a machine with changed components, such as a motherboard. It was on slashdot a bit ago. Less of the windows trolling, plz.


It's not a troll.

How convenient. To get the data back off of my encrypted drive after the motherboard dies, I'll have to reinstall Vista, install all the OS updates, update the keys in the TPM, then read the disk.

Glad Microsoft is working so hard to make things simple.

Hint: TPM doesn't have to be implemented in such a boneheaded manner. Microsoft _chose_ to do it this way.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Install new motherboard.
2. Re-install Windows
3. Save data
4. Install linux
5. ...
6. Profit

Protect against lost keys, drive failure, malware

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

There's a school of thought which holds that unless you have at least two backups of your data, one of them off site, then you don't really have the data.

What? New Media Formats to Fail?

[mencomenco]

"It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail -- and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose."

Could not possibly happen to a nicer bunch of folks...

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Anonymous Coward]

Its an ENCRYPTED drive that YOU can choose to use, It is supposed to be bloody hard to get the data off without the install, that is the whole intention of it. It is not forced on you, it is not something that is even obvious or easy to do, Bitlocker requires good knowledge of what your doing to implement. So FFS stop trolling garbage.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[myowntrueself]

Hey at least it'll save on the cost of backup media;

You back your DRM movies to tape, your motherboard fails and the hard drives are now unreadable. You reinstall on a new motherboard and restore the data from tape. Only the DRM content 'knows' that its been 'copied' to 'a different machine' and won't play.

So you give up on backups altogether and save a small fortune!

See, Microsoft *does* have your best interests at heart!

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Anonymous Coward]

It is supposed to be bloody hard to get the data off without the install, that is the whole intention of it.

Wrong. It's supposed to be bloody hard to get the data off without my consent, not Microsoft's. I realize some of you have been so brainwashed to think those two things are the same, but they often aren't.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Zero__Kelvin]

Its an ENCRYPTED drive that YOU can choose to use ...

Oh ... I whole-heartedly agree! And most people will "choose" to use it the way they "choose" Windows over Linux, i.e. because they don't know there is any other option than Windows. Here's your sign ....

Re: you are confused

[Anonymous Coward]

The DRM encryption key is stored in the TPM chip of the motherboard. If your motherboard dies, sure maybe you can install Vista on a new one, but that new motherboard (even if the same make and model) has a different key in its TPM chip, and can't decrypt your data. The key to all your stuff died with the motherboard.

Enjoy.

Simple question, simple answer

[slughead]

Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up for Failure?

Nope, it's all that other stuff.

Re:Simple question, simple answer

[Programit]

Have to agree. Vista promised the world and the only things being pushed as the reason to upgrade are: AERO desktop, - Vital to have a pretty, graphic hungry, slow GUI! - must buy that $500.00 graphic card so I can run my accounting system?

Increased Security - Yes I do really want to delete that file! Really I do, Honest, True , Okay! Please, may I?

Digital entertainment - providing you are watching it alone, on 1 monitor, on one machine, and don't want to use it on your iPod (Or Zume ha ha) - You can always buy the same content again for the ipod, and again for the Zume, and again for your car and again so you wife can watch and again, and again ... .. .. .. .. . . .

Are New DRM Technologies Setting Vista Up for Failure? Too late MS did that!

Re:Simple question, simple answer

[finkployd]

Nope, it's all that other stuff.

WHAT other stuff? All of the really cool features I was looking forward to in Vista have been cut or back ported to XP (infocard, IE7). I don't want just XP with DRM (the only real reason for Vista's existence) and some fancy graphics.

Finkployd

Forced?

[OmegaBlac]

The article notes that many of the DRM technologies were forced upon Vista by the entertainment industry, but that may not garner Microsoft or Hollywood any sympathy with consumers

Funny. It appears to me that Microsoft willingly bends over backwards to develop technologies (or patches them quickly) that will aid the major content providers in further restricting consumers' freedoms to do what the hell they want with products that they purchased with their own damn money.

Re:Forced?

[maxume]

Microsoft isn't expecting the major studios and labels to start offering drm free content anytime soon; they aren't interested in the battle against drm(no profit for them); thus, they are quick to fix issues lest the studios pull their Windows targeted/available content.

Microsoft also wants some drm stuff because they see software piracy as a problem, but for the most part, they don't want angry calls from consumers asking why their new movie doesn't play on their computer.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Atlantis-Rising]

Actually, setting up BitLocker is not simple, and it's definately not turned on by default. Whole-drive encryption is too failure-prone, slow, and difficult for it to be any other way. BTW, it doesn't require a TPM- you can do it with a USB key.

Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[ironwill96]

I work for a University and we recently went to a conference where Microsoft presented some of their new licensing schemes for Vista. We were quite perturbed to say the least. For one, they don't want us to ever use the "Ultimate" version. Here's how the conversation goes with the Microsoft rep:

Microsoft Rep: "So as you can see, Windows Vista Ultimate's CD media costs will be very cheap and each copy will have its own CD key for use in activation."
Us: "So umm..is there volume licensing for the Ultimate version?"
Microsoft Rep: "No, but the CD Media is very cheap!"
Us: "So, you don't want us to use the Ultimate version then?"
Microsoft Rep: "No, you can still use it, you just need to buy an individual CD with an individual key for use with individual product activation!"
Us: "So, basically, you don't want us to use the Ultimate edition then, got it."

Not only are they nuking volume licensing for the highest level products, they are also going to require product activation even with volume licensing! In Windows XP, we have a volume-license key that is embedded in the Image during SysPrep and that key does NOT require activation. Activation is annoying when you are imaging thousands of machines every year. No word yet on whether the volume license activation will be requiring an individual key for every copy of Vista you install (if they even let us make an image of it at all!).

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that anyone will ever respond to this but...

This is my question exactly. We have ~200 pc in my department alone. We image ~150 of these about every two weeks or so to tweak lab images. What happens when we have to activate 150 pcs every two weeks?

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[bmajik]

I don't know what is public knowledge about vista SKUs and Vista licensing, but I'll say a few things

- it is NOT expected that large organizations will be deploying the Ultimate SKU on their desktops. There are business focused SKUs, and those are what most business desktops will be running. Do you want Media center on all of your employee machines?

- there has been a lot of new feature work in key/activation/whatever handling for the enterprise desktop scenario. AFAIK, this work only applies to the business focused SKU(s). It's what microsoft will be using internally and it has over 100k PCs to manage (not including unmanaged assets like lab hardware)

Based on what I know (and I don't know everything, nor am I an authority on these specific areas) you can safely assume the following:

- imaging is a supported and important scenario
- assuming the right SKUs / supporting infrastructure, individual employees will not need to worry about product keys or activation.

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[TerraByte13]

we have 1000+ that are imaged on a regular basis for product testing. Your question is echoed here...im sure there are many others...

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[gregorio]

I work for a University and we recently went to a conference where Microsoft presented some of their new licensing schemes for Vista. We were quite perturbed to say the least. For one, they don't want us to ever use the "Ultimate" version. Here's how the conversation goes with the Microsoft rep: [bla bla bla]

Sorry, the same conversation / logic applies to Windows XP Media Center. Microsoft never did and will never mass-license entertainment editions of Windows, no matter how much are you willing to pay for it. And that did not make Windows XP a failure.

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[jimicus]

Do you want Media center on all of your employee machines?

Depends. If I'm developing a product for use on Media Centre - maybe not on everyone's machine, but certainly on a substantial number.

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[Procyon101]

I had this issue in a very intimate connection with MS.

The official word I got was either:

1) Reimage before the turn themselves off. For short lived testing boxes this is doable.
2) Activate every single one.

I was not amused... but they offered no alternative.

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[Anonymous Coward]

" In Windows XP, we have a volume-license key that is embedded in the Image during SysPrep and that key does NOT require activation."

Off topic, but interesting nonetheless:

XP volume licenses actually DO require activation. If you force open the activation wizard, you'll see that MS has just conveniently set the activation period to several million days.

Re:Not the DRM - The Licensing Will

[Samhain]

I do not guarantee this is true, but this is what I have heard.

- Volume licensing will not support Ultimate.
- A Volume licensing customer will have to setup a special server which will do the Activation for all of their Vista Volume licensing machines
- The Volume licensing machines will have to "check in" with the Activation Server every six months to stay activated (I have no idea what will happen if they do not check in every six months, perhaps just fail to get updates).

Now on the good side, there are great new tools in Vista to support, modify, customise, install and update image files. IE. no longer do you need to create a new image file to add a security patch you can actually apply the new patches directly to the image file which is saved on the hard disk.

Get ready to add some new acronyms to your books

[denmarkw00t]

Along with DRM, the article gives us some new terminology:

TPM - Trusted Platform Module
OPM - Output Protection Management
PVP - Protected Video Path
DOM - Directions On Microsoft --oops, W3C may have some problems with that one...

Re:As if it needs DRM to fail

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

As if Vista won't fail on its own merits. Doesn't need new DRM to do that.

Umm, no. It'll be hard enough for Vista to fail with DRM. After all, Windows is the standard, and there is plenty to like about the new OS. It'll be more secure (I know, I know, I'm not saying much), it'll be prettier (it's important), and it has "features" that are only available in Vista (such as sandboxed IE7, DirectX 10, etc). It'd be a fine OS, if it weren't so damn crippled. The reason why many of us here on /. want Vista to fail, is because we don't want this DRM to become standard.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[OnlineAlias]

Bitlocker is only available for enterprise customers. The keys are also stored in active directory in a slick little schema extension, where they are easily retrievable. This is excellent development of encryption technology for enterprise customers that don't want to have to worry about getting in the headlines over a stolen laptop. It has nothing to do with DRM, and is not even available to regular consumers. I'm no MS fanboi, but jeesus, get a clue.

RAID anyone?

[Lost Penguin]

MS seems to want RAID table meta data and DRM seem to want to exist in the same location.
I will not name the hardware maker, but we have had to move the meta data last year to "prepare for Vista."
Now MS has changed the location again, as in DRM just killed your RAID array.
We should have ignored MS and left the meta-data in the old location...

Re:RAID anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

That wouldn't be adaptec would it?

You might want to stop in and see me when you get in this morning.
--Signed, Your Boss

Zune not Vista Compatible yet....

[viper21]

With reports of the Zune not being Vista Compatible--it does make you wonder how hard it is going to be for other manufacturers to get up to speed on things.

Re:Zune not Vista Compatible yet....

[Anonymous Coward]

The Zune software isn't not compatible, it just isn't fully tested and certified on an operating system that hasn't been released yet. But, hell, this is slashdot. Why let facts interfere with a good FUDing?

Re:Zune not Vista Compatible yet....

[Nasarius]

Neither is Visual Studio 2005. You get a warning and everything when installing it. Nero and TortoiseSVN cause service crashes. Oh, and doing anything slightly unusual (say, using CrossCrypt to mount an image) is completely fucked up because the admin-class users...aren't really administrators. We now have this shiny new UAC "technology", which needs to be explicitly invoked to get privileges that were normal in XP, so any older apps that aren't specifically written for Vista will just fail with "access denied" or a similar error. You'd think that the API would be smart enough to put up the UAC prompt in a situation like that, but nah, they really wanted to screw developers and users as much as possible.

Vote with your wallets

[PCM2]

"Consumers are the final arbiters because they can vote with their wallets," Usher added. "This is as it should be in any well-functioning market, and we believe the improvements in Windows Vista play to this strength."

Usher is failing to take into account one important point, however. In some cases, consumers can't vote with their wallets. In cases where there exists a monopoly, for example.

Not possible to "do it right"

[openright]

Lets look at the goals of the key players here:

A - Move/Music industry: make as much profit with the least effort
B - Musician/Artist: make good music, make good profit, be independent
C - Average User: play media on common consumer devices
D - Power User: play media on common and uncommon devices. Skip commercials. Play as desired.
E - Poor College copiers: copy cool music, as I can't really afford to buy it.
F - Criminal: undo or avoid protection and sell copies to others to make profit with little effort.

Now look at the effect of DRM on these players:

A - Seemingly positive because of control. But diminishing popularity due to removal of "college copying mentality" as free product placement.
B - Negative. No extra profit. Loss of control as middleman is always required.
C - Somewhat negative. Missing flexibility causes re-purchase, annoyance and diminishing sales.
D - Negative. DRM means no freedom of use.
E - Negative. Result to DRM-free of commons music.
F - Somewhat Negative. Though large-scale criminals can obtain commercial duplicators that can copy without unDRMing. Though displaced "college copiers" may create bigger demand for gray-market copies.

Re:Not possible to "do it right"

[drsmithy]

Negative. No extra profit. Loss of control as middleman is always required.

Bollocks.

Look, DRM is bad enough on its own, to anyone who cares. You don't need to make shit up to try and paint it in a worse light.

Re:Not possible to "do it right"

[openright]

"Negative. No extra profit. Loss of control as middleman is always required."

I guess I greatly mis-stated it. "always" should be "possibly".

The point is that if DRM is mandated for broadcast, or if a popular device only played DRM, then the music would need to go through the middle man really be published.

Yes, we are not yet there. But I was talking about a DRM world that the media industries want.

Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[TheNetAvenger]

So here we are again, and again the same ignorance and FUD is flying...

Out of all the DRM in Vista, nothing is required, nor even used by MS themselves with the exception of the WGA.

So rant on about the WGA, as I am not a fan of it either.

The rest of the stuff is known or existed in Windows for over 6 years and also exists in OSX.

1.) Music DRM - Already exists in older versions of Windows, it is only used if the online store requires it to be used. Apple iTunes is also DRM, but unlike MS, MS doesn't use the DRM technology in their OS to force you to buy the music from MS as Apple does. If people are POed at DRM, why does Apple get a free pass, when they not only implement the DRM technology but are also the ones requiring it for their own profit in the music industry?

2) HD DRM - Again this is something that has been known for a long time, and if the content provider turns on DRM, I don't care what OS you are using, you will either be subjected to DRM, low quality Video, or not able to play it at all. Vista at least allows compliant HD systems the ability to play this crap, just as the HD players already on the market ALSO HAVE IMPLEMENTED! So we can complain about MS, but they did nothing more than make it so Vista can play HD DRM content, they did NOT restrict anything whatsoever. The finger needs to be pointed at any content providers that use DRM. The only way DRM HD content is going to play on any OS other than Vista is in a low quality analog mode, period. (Unless there is a quite an elaborate hack on the horizon, that by passes several Hardware layers of encryption.) Also, since Intel is the author of the HD DRM crap, should we be angry at them along with the content providers? To follow logic, to be mad at MS for letting Vista play DRM HD Content, then we also should be mad at Sony and Toshiba that made HD and Blu HDDVD players which ALSO SHIP with DRM locking mechanisms, as ALL CONSUMERS players have this crap Intel stuff installed.

3) TPC - Well, everyone though MS was using the (again Intel) TPC for applications, content and 100s of other FUD stories... As Vista ships, the ONLY place TPC is used, is for a BitLocker Drive, and it is only used to store the drive's encryption. However, TPC isn't even required for bitlocker, as long as your computer can boot to a USB drive, MS can store the encryption key needed on the USB Dongle and not need TPC even for bitlocker whatsoever. So instead of TPC being used to lock people out of applications or anything else as the rumor mills were wanting people to believe, Vista only uses it to store encryption information for a volume level encryption technology.

4) WGA - Yep it sucks that MS is using this crap. I know why they are doing it, but I don't fully agree. I understand the mass OEM level copying of the late 90s that prompted the first activation generation with WindowsXP, and sure it hurt both consumers and MS. However by Microsoft using this system, it makes users feel like MS is trying to control them, when it is more the duplication pirate companies out there that this gives the axe to. Also if the OEM or consumers are legit, this doesn't hurt them, especially as MS has backed down on all the EULA crap that had surfaced last month. If you own a real copy you can pretty much do what you want with it.

I won't defend WGA though, MS should know better that the pirates will still get past whatever they need to, and this only annoys the end users, even though I know good people at MS that think they are protecting users with the WGA... Even if they are misguided.

So with another round of the big Vista DRM Scare, the only DRM MS is using is the WGA, which is also in WindowsXP. The rest of the DRM in Vista has always been there, exists in other Oses like OSX and is up to the content providers to screw over customers with or not, MS is nothing more than the company that makes the player to use the Toshiba/Sony analogy...

Re:Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[Benaiah]

quite insightful.

I know microsoft is just being the bitch for the MPAA/RIAA.
Microsoft makes more money than both(Maybe).
If Vista didnt play HD content at all and publicly denounced the MPAA/RIAA they would easily be able to win the argument on the side of consumer friendliness. But you see its all about protecting your content. And if microsoft uses WGA why shouldnt everyone else have their own disgusting unfriendly shit to stop you from doing what you want with the content that you own.

Re:Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[TheNetAvenger]

If Vista didnt play HD content at all and publicly denounced the MPAA/RIAA they would easily be able to win the argument on the side of consumer friendliness. But you see its all about protecting your content

More likely, if Vista didn't put the ability to play HD DRM content in, the monopoly police (this time being shoved by the MPAA/RIAA and others) would find a way to demonstrate that MS is using its Desktop presence to circumvent their business models and probably get MS into even more hot water.

This is one area that works against consumers, as the control of what MS does with its OSes has been put into political hands, and it just isn't about what they do, but 'who' they do it to.

Re:Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[Benaiah]

Dammit is there nothing that any company can do to support consumers without getting the shit sued out of them? WTF is going on!

Re:Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[StikyPad]

The article doesn't blame MS, it just says that it's hurting Vista, and I agree.

Also, one positive change to activation on Vista over XP is that you can actually install your Vista without the key, and it will work (for 30 days) without any problem whatsoever. That should be more than enough time to locate your misplaced key, or contact someone back at home if you're (for some reason) installing an OS on the road. Additionally, if you had, say, the Basic Version, you could test drive the Ultimate version, although you'd have to completely reinstall afterward since there is no way to retroactively change the install version upon activation, AFAIK.

Vista does appear unfinished, even in RTM form. A few examples that I found are: Terrible driver support, although that's not strictly MS's fault (Hauppauge, I'm looking in your general direction). The button to lock WMP to fullscreen is easily overridden with CTRL-ALT-DEL (not sure what the purpose of that is to begin with though). The horizontal layout in Vista Media Center is horrible for browsing media, and with only thumbnails and no title until you select something (hey, let's take x000 years of 99% of the planet reading left to right, top to bottom, and turn it on its side.. oh, and let's throw out the labels. Good luck finding that video now!).

Re:Here we are again, nothing has changed...

[pesc]

The rest of the stuff is known or existed in Windows for over 6 years and also exists in OSX.

I know. That's when I decided I wasn't going to upgrade to Windows XP. About a year after I moved to Linux and haven't owned any Windows system since. It works quite well once you learn it and I haven't regretted it. Thankyou.

I think it's funny

[tkrotchko]

The author and MS says DRM was forced on MS Vista by the content owners/providers. But that's clearly not the case. XP manages not to have this level of protection and there appears to be plenty of content available for the Windows platform.

I seem to recall that MS pitched their DRM schemes to content owners and providers to convince them that Windows was the only good platform for secure content and essentially achieve lock-in at the content provider level.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, but for Microsoft to say "Oh poor us, we didn't want to provide DRM, but we had to!" seems disingenuous at best.

Apple is a member of BDA

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Apple is a member of BDA, the Blu-Ray Disc Association (I'm not exactly sure what the acronym stands for), so Leopard will definitely have DRM. It *has* to in order to play protected Blu-Ray discs.

Re:Apple is a member of BDA

[soft_guy]

There has been DRM associated wtih playing DVDs for some time now. Back under MacOS 8, you couldn't play a DVD if you had booted the computer with MacsBug loaded for example. Also, they disabled taking screen shots while DVDs are playing.

Re:Apple is a member of BDA

[Weedlekin]

They've also been using Matsushita DVD drives for some time that have region-coding info in an area that can't be accessed from the computer itself. You can change the region code a maximum of five times, and there's no way around it (tools that worked with older drives are powerless with these, and there are as yet no loadable firmware hacks for them).

Bootleggers will love this

[Heir Of The Mess]

I was talking to some bootleggers on the footpath a few months ago while on holiday. They were very excited about HD-DVD and Blue-Ray. They hope that everyone gets burned at least once trying to play the new media as once people get burned with the legal stuff they tend to be less uppity about buying from the bootleggers.

Reply to DRM AND 'vista'

[Anonymous Coward]

Allons Enfants de la Patria et le Monde, Le Jour du Gloire est Arrive......
        Aux Armes, les Citoyens..... a Bas les DRM's... a Bas les RIAA, micro$, et MPAA!
Jamais prendre pas produits du microsoft!
        Marchons, Marchons, aux Victoire! et la Morte du Windows!

Shorter answer: No

[NineNine]

It's very simple. Don't buy DRM'ed music. There are these things called "CeeDees". They are often used to store music. You can buy these "CeeDees" at your local music store. You should try them some time. The only reason the scenario you described will happen is if everybody involved is too fat to get the ass out of their chairs, and can't get out to spend some of your money locally (which is a more important issue than "DRM", if you ask me).

Re:Shorter answer: No

[QuantumG]

Or, ya know, they replace CeeDees with a new DRM encrusted format and don't sell any new music without it. Didn't you get the memo?

Re:Shorter answer: No

[NineNine]

It won't happen. Way too many devices already out there that are dumb CD players.
 
Besides, if "they" do it, "they" are only the companies that sell that mainstream crap to the idiots, anyway. There'd be plenty of music left to listen to.

Re:Shorter answer: No

[QuantumG]

Look around, it's already happening.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Anonymous Coward]

bitlocker is not a home user or general user thing, it is designed for people that absolutely must have top level security, the intention usually being that if the motherboard dies or other failure then you replace it as you don't want someone to just install a new copy of an OS and steal data when they steal your laptop, one common use is defense forces. for the great unwashed that understand little of security or encryption and its uses like yourself you would never come across bitlocker nor even work out how to use it let alone run into trouble with it.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[nxtw]

Or you can simply put in the recovery code at boot, assuming you save it, and it'll boot up.

I think that you really need to think deeper.

[Benaiah]

Microsoft will push manufacturers to no longer ship machines with XP.
They are forcing upgrades with DirectX10.

The average user is going to end up with Vista, my mum will get Vista with her next lap top.
No matter what microsoft will make money.

And we, the technical consumer are going to get fucked. We will have a drm infested piece of shit os forced down our throats to play games and watch HD movies... I for one will be sitting out the next format war. DVD is good enough, DivX is great and MP3s are great.
I will also be ignoring games that only use directx 10 for as long as possible.

I think all that we need to sink vista is a directx10 patch for winxp. Then I will never even have to see this abomination of an operating system. I mean honestly why would I buy it. Microsoft has clearly said they arent making the OS for me the consumer but for the Media industry. MPAA/RIAA can go fuck themselves for all I care. If they die there will always be music and movies. Albeit most likely shit movies. I wish microsoft would just protect the rights of their consumers for a change.

Vote with your wallet. Dont buy vista AND convince as many people as you can to stay away from it aswell.

Re:I think that you really need to think deeper.

[dbIII]

I for one will be sitting out the next format war.

I think the next format war is not far from being won by millions of cheap mp4 players from China.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Anonymous Coward]

it is designed for people that absolutely must have top level security

These people would never use Windows in the first place, twat.

It's not new

[Cracked Pottery]

Windows Media Center does not provide a user interface to use the composite or S-video capture capabilities of your video card. I can just see Hollywood on the phone to BG begging him close that damn analog hole. Of course, you also can't transfer your home movies either, unless you find different software. I think some people are going to get worn out on the idea that they can't use their computers the way they want to. I am pissed enough at the idea that if lightning strikes your computer, it also blows up the license to use your software in some cases. M$ can't count on me as an early Vista adopter.

They seem to have forgotten

[mark0]

In this regard, Microsoft has failed to honor the rule that made it successful. With respect to DRM and just about every other technology it has implemented, for everyone else, "The early bird gets the worm". For Microsoft, "The second mouse gets the cheese". I really don't know why Microsoft has chosen to be the early bird here.

Re:They seem to have forgotten

[Anonymous Coward]

"The early bird gets the worm"

I really don't know why Microsoft has chosen to be the early bird here.

Cause they are used to get worms?..

Migrate to GNU/Linux, not Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

Our company did last year, cities of Vienna and Munich did, it should work out very nicely for you too. Our former XP users love KDE.

No need to put yourself through pains when you can improve security, save money and achieve a good deal of vendor independence all at the same time. Why support the Microsoft monopoly by paying ridiculous prices for bug ridden software with DRM restrictions, when you can run Free software on the industry standard (and thus inexpensive) hardware?

Knowing everything I know now, I only regret that we did not migrate to GNU/Linux sooner.

Re:Get ready to add some new acronyms to your book

[LordLucless]

PVP is taken as well, although given this is referring to DRM, Player versus Platform may be an acceptable compromise.

DRM not forced upon Microsoft

[massysett]

many of the DRM technologies were forced upon Vista by the entertainment industry,

Absolutely not. There is no way that the entertainment industry is dictating terms to a company with 90% of the market for desktop operating systems. What is this line supposed to do, make me say "oh boo hoo, poor Microsoft, being dictated to by the entertainment industry"? Ridiculous.

MS wants DRM. MS likes DRM. If content can only be played on Windows, that's another reason to buy Windows and not Mac or Linux. MS is reaping license fees on many of its DRM schemes--Yahoo is not using MS DRM for free when it locks up its music downloads. MS and the entertainment industry are in a symbiotic relationship: DRM gives them both a way to make more money and to control their respective markets.

Anyone who things DRM has been "forced" on MS is falling for MS propoganda.

Re:DRM not forced upon Microsoft

[bmajik]

I wish I could disagree with you (I'm an anti-DRM Microsoft employee), but I'm not sure that I can.

Based on conversations I've had with "the people that know", content protection features in some of our products go above and beyond what is strictly required by the letter of the law. What I cannot get a straight answer on is if it is because of contractual obligations we have or for some other reason.

It is very frustrating because the people involved (and some of them are lawyers) are not especially helpful or forthcoming when it comes to explaining their decisions. MS is a relatively open company internally - you can candidly ask any employee about what they work on, challenge their judgement, etc. Usuaully you find out they're pretty smart and had good reasons for doing what they did. It's a good system - 90% of the time I can agree with a point of view or a decision I didn't initially agree with, because I replace my (incorrect/incomplete) assumptinos with real data/knowledge from the people that directly attacked the problem. But that hasn't always been the case when trying to understand why certain content-protection behaviors are the way they are. There's a growing undercurrent of employees that are at least as ugly as some slashdot trolls anytime some new person says "i was trying to do thing X with my media and i can't.. why not?". We'll spout off answers like "because MS is the bitch of hollywood, not the company that cares about its customers" and the baiting goes pretty much unanswered/unchallenged.

I've been barking up a lot of trees in my internal anti-DRM crusades and the answers sound a lot like "we're not talking to YOU about this". I wonder if it is just me, but the people I've tlaked to that aren't quite as obnoxious as I am get about the same treatment.

So yeah. Some of it, maybe even most of it, is us trying to cover our asses legally. But not 100% of it. And that non-zero amount really pisses me off.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[AArmadillo]

You apparently don't understand what is going on here. Suppose you use PGP to have e-mails sent to you encrypted. Then for some reason you lose your private key (say, your computer crashes and you didn't have a backup). Now you can't read any of the e-mails that are sent to you. OMG PGP has taken over your e-mails without your consent!?!?!??!!>!??! No, you chose to use a technology to have e-mails encrypted, and you lost the key to the data. The entire intent of the method was to prevent someone without the key from having access to the data. If you lose the key, you shouldn't expect to have access to the data, or if you do, you should expect others that don't have they key to have access to the data as well. The same goes for bitlocker. You have to weigh the risk of your motherboard breaking and you losing all your data against the risk of the data falling into the wrong hands before you decide to encrypt it. Don't cry about Microsoft because the technology is doing exactly what it is supposed to do -- prevent someone without the key from having access to the data.

MS can change vista later

[mrsteveman1]

You know, perhaps none of you were paying attention to the recent windows media player update, that in truth updated WINDOWS itself (drm related, look it up). If you people actually think that because you can crack vista NOW, or you can play your music NOW, that it will always be that way, i can guarantee you microsoft has worked very hard to ensure they can change nearly anything they want about the operating system in the future. As we have seen recently, they are perfectly willing to introduce totally crippling updates without telling you about it in any way, and at that point every one of you who arent so worried right now will already have converted to vista because you werent worried....... how ironic........

Re:MS can change vista later

[KwKSilver]

Wish I had mod points, you'd go up. My read out on the XP and "XP-Media" EULAs is that MS reserves the right to change the deal any time and in any way they wish, and for any reason, including for the hell of it. User rights? Zero point zero!

Re:MS can change vista later

[jibjibjib]

It scares me that it is theoretically possible for Microsoft to shut down most of the world's economy tomorrow if they want to. (push down an update which trashes the kernel on all winXP installations).

I wonder if the government has considered asking Microsoft to use this power against the "Axis of Evil" or other "enemies of the American people".

Vista installation media

[mrsteveman1]

Something i forgot, if any of you have noticed how hard apple has tried to enforce OSX being used on their own hardware, its still available damn near everywhere, and heres why: Any software you write and print to an installation disc, can in fact, be taken off said disk, its code removed and altered, and put right back on the disc to install........ the OSX crackers have the right idea, you dont need to crack the OS AFTER its installed, you need to REMOVE the rediculously stupid aspects of the code entirely, before its even put on an installation disc, and hence if you play your cards right, vista wont even understand that it was supposed to be activated, nor will it understand that its not SUPPOSED to unlock that new HDDVD since you dont have a secured system, since you can very easily go the extra mile and literally emulate a TPM (assuming your tpm certificate isnt being verified every time you use it over the net to grab a movie key). On both sides, i think the people who ARENT worried about vista are nearly delusional and arent learning from history (ms can change vista later very easy). at the same time i think the people who assume vista will be cracked easily are also delusional, this is not going to be a simple thing, if you want to get ahead of the cat and mouse game you must literally kill the cat, or tie it up out back while you play out front, far away from the mousetraps :D

Individually stupid, they're cunning in packs.

[Kadin2048]

The common person may not stand up against "copyright controls," but they won't deal with a lot of inconvenience in doing what they want to do.

The past is littered with the corpses of formats that have failed for one reason or another, because they were either too complicated, or didn't solve a problem people actually had, or were too expensive, or a variety of other reasons. For one that failed purely due to DRM, you can look back to Divx: that went nowhere in a hurry.

I'm not sure that HD-DVD and BluRay will be a whole lot better. They're not quite as obnoxious as Divx was, but to the average consumer they're almost as devoid of advantages when compared to existing formats (in the case of BluRay, DVD).

I'm generally a fan of any theory that premises itself on the 'average consumer' being nothing but a fat, alcoholic, lazy, debt-ridden weasel, since 90% of the time this is a fairly good model for our collective behavior. However, much as consumers will go to ridiculous lengths to get something for nothing, they usually won't pay to get nothing, either. The value proposition of many new DRM-heavy technologies just isn't there.

Xenix???

[PaulBu]

... Thanks for clarifying the distinction between non-Windows and non-Microsoft! But please tell me, which of a very large, high volume (1500+ stores) retail chain, an international, premier law firm, and one of the largest US based banks actually uses Xenix now? Or was it way back then?

Paul B.

Re:Xenix???

[TapeCutter]

I have been contracting as a developer for 15+yrs, I agree with the GP as to the multitude of O/S's in large corporations, the projects I currently look after compile on Windows, Linux, HPUX, Solaris and AIX.

I had a large customer the other day complaining that our sofware wouldn't work on two of his "older" servers. I scratched my head for a little while until I realised he was running NT4.

Re:Xenix???

[Anonymous Coward]

"Their point of sale terminals in the stores were Xenix and then migrated to a Linux."

Ok, here's the thing you miss

[Sycraft-fu]

You can't copy this DRM'd content anywhere. So using another OS gains you nothing, except that now you can't use it at all. Now maybe you decide that's ok, you'd rather not buy DRM'd stuff, I highly encourage a DRM'd media boycott. Great, however Vista doesn't affect that at all. Vista does not REQUIRE DRM, it simply allows it. Wanna rip a CD in Vista? Go right ahead, run any CD ripper you like. Then run your favourite MP3 encoder and make an unprotected MP3. No problem, Vista doesn't stop you.

You can still do everything in Vista you do in XP. It is just that Vista will support new DRM that some content may require. If you want to play that content, you'll need Vista.

Re:Ok, here's the thing you miss

[QuantumG]

That's great, I never said otherwise. Thing is, the moment my girlfriend or my brother start wondering whether or not their is any music out there that doesn't have DRM on it, and intellectually consider the possibility that choosing free culture, free software and, in general, freedom, is better than buying stuff from the mainstream content providers, it's all over. People can put up with a lot of shit if you don't get in their face about it. Vista will get in their face. They will start realising that there actually is a war going on and that so far, they've been sitting in occupied territory without a care in the world.

Re:Ok, here's the thing you miss

[Sycraft-fu]

No, they won't. To the extent they'll care at all they'll want their stuff to work. This will mean owning Vista (also next gen MacOSes will probably work). If they boycott something it'll be the DRM'd media, not the OS which seems to work just fine.

You may want to turn your computer in to a battle ground but many of us don't. I want my computer to run my software, period. It's a tool, nothing more. If the OS that does that is Windows (and it is) that's the end of the argument. Unless MS puts something in Windows that makes it unusable or sub par to another solution, I'll stick with it. I don't care about Vista's DRM. I don't plan on buying DRM'd media, it's simply not relevant to me.

Re:Ok, here's the thing you miss

[QuantumG]

I want my computer to run my software, period. It's a tool, nothing more.

It's a tool that serves two masters, the owner and the user, that's the problem.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[fishbowl]

Your PGP example is flawed. In the PGP example, I at least *had* the key. I had responsibility to keep the key safe. That was my responsibility if I lost it; mine to lose.

But my argument against media DRM is that it has a tendency to put a cryptographic scheme to which I do *not* have the key, on my creative works.
Further, such schemes are often not so much a measure to "protect" artists or even the corporations that distribute their work, but are more an effort to maintain artificially high barriers to entry into the world of audio and video production.

I object very strongly when I am asked to use a recording format that places a cryptographic lock on *my* music -- that is, music that I composed, arranged, and performed, to which *I* hold all copyrights and for which I alone decide if and how its reproduction shall be limited.

So when Sony or Steinberg or Digi decides to swing their fist, protecting their copyrights or the copyrights of the artists they represent, that's fine. But they occasionally hit my nose, by abridging *my* copyright, or at least, expecting me to happily enter into a relationship whereby they will abridge my copyright, and it's no deal, no way, ever.

Few people seem to understand my argument. But mass acceptance of DRM schemes is a *very* *bad* thing for the rights of individual artists -- particularly those who wish to reserve all rights to their work while also not placing artificial constraints on distribution. To the corporate production machine, those two ideas are completely incompatable. It's hard for lots of people to comprehend that a person might want to hold copyrights but also broadcast his music or video or writings as far and as wide as possible (regardless of compensation). Those two goals are not at all incompatable, and are in fact, the basis for the existence of copyright law in the first place. The right to distribute your material is the main thing. Distributing for compensation is just a special case.

But the fact that rights are abridged for individuals is lost in the noise of "piracy."

Apple has it "right"

[jonwil]

Or as "right" as it is possible to get.
The only thing that I consider wrong (from the perspective of the 99% of the population who doesnt care about DRM) with the iTunes music store is the fact that the greedy record company executives forced apple to ditch the one price fits all model (in australia for example).

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[livewire98801]

I'm hardly a Windows fan. . . quite the opposite, I feel dirty having turned around on the Microsoft campus the other day. I use Linux on my entire home network, and cringe when I hear the terms Vista, Windows, or IE. On the other hand, I think we need to leave BitLocker alone. Lets focus on things that we DON'T have control over. Trust me, there's plenty. . . and how much about Vista's "security" and "protection" features are NOT being released to the public?

I am very nervous about Vista being released. I won't be buying a BluRay or HD-DVD drive or player for now, but eventually it'll be like trying to stick to VHS. It's that day that I'm worried about. Zune will fail, I think; that's not what I'm concerned about. My concern is what happens with the rest of the hardware we use.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[heinousjay]

So your point, which was very well made, in no way had anything to do with the thread? That's fantastic. Thanks for the hijack, it keeps my reading comprehension muscles on their toes, so to speak.

Approximate translation

[The Master Control P]

Go, children of the world... The day of glory has arrived!
Of the arms, the citizens... against DRM, against the RIAA, Microsoft, and the MPAA!
Never take a product from Microsoft!
March, March, to Victory! And the death of Windows!

*Before you criticize, it's been 2 years since I was in a French classroom.

Agreed, but...

[PaulBu]

... there is a fine difference between heavily promoted (at the time) product from a mojor supplier, which might have got some custom applications happily running on it -- and almost totally forgotten and obscure product (from the same supplier, who, it seems, tried to downplay it as much as it could, for somewhat obvious reasons). I was just surprized when I read the list, I almost mis-read it as Minix! :-)

And I did like your tagline too... "Shine on, you, crazy diamond!"

Paul B.

Re:Agreed, but...

[TapeCutter]

True, I haven't seen (or heard of) a Xenix installation for quite a while now.

Waste of space...

[lantastik]

This was pretty much a waste of a line on my RSS reader. The corporate enterprise environment is not going to abandon Windows because of DRM and the enthusiasts will crack it. ...just another wet dream about the demise of Windows that most of us will never see in our lifetimes.

Consumer Aware?

[Anonymous Coward]

The average consumer does not know that they are losing various rights to DRM when they purchase Vista in the next year. Perhaps some campaign ads are in order but who to run them?

Who got bent over this time?

[Divebus]

I think Microsoft got bent over by the RIAA and MPAA big time. The music and movie industries distrust Microsoft sooooo much that they demanded draconian DRM before even allowing their property on Vista or the Zune at all. They also distrust Windows "security" so much that Microsoft has to encrypt the whole damned computer as insurance against cracking the payload - movies and music. Microsoft isn't doing that because it's fun. Combined with Microsoft's own software protection schemes, Vista could be the end of tolerence for this nonsense.

Does anybody think Ballmer offered "hey, how would you guys like a slice of every Zune sold?". It was probably more like "what's it going to take to certify the Zune to carry your assets? How 'bout I squirt you some pictures of Franklin?"

Now with RIAA and MPAA holding Microsoft's nuts in their fists, lets put some more pressure on the gullable consumer. Joe Schmoe buys an HD-DVD/Bluray disk and finds out he can't watch it a fourth time unless he buys a license extension. How about re-purchasing a license to your entire music library annually? That's what the RIAA/MPAA want so badly and Vista is their ticket to do that...

...until everyone drop kicks their Vista machines to the curb. DRM isn't Microsoft or Apple's idea (well, not Apple's anyway), it's these RIAA/MPAA chumps who need reasonable control over their assets in a burglar infested environment. For each of those protections, at least Apple shows a way out with a wink. It's not graceful but they offer to burn your puchased music to an unencrypted CD and there has to be a path to get video on a DVD, as bad as that is. Microsoft wouldn't DARE suggest that lest they get their nuts twisted off. They're in deeeeep shit and they know it.

Same story again

[webheaded]

I know you guys are really quick to jump on the "M$ suxx0rz!!!!11" bandwagon, but I'd just like to say this isn't so much Microsoft as it is Hollywood. If you're going to be pissed at someone, but pissed at them for being fucking stupid. If they'd spend more time focusing on quality content instead of "protecting" their shitty content, we might not need this bullshit. Microsoft was faced with either giving in to their demands and having support for this stuff or refusing on "principal" and having no support. They could tell MS to take Vista and shove it up their collective asses. I know DRM is bad and blah blah...trust me I hate it as much as you do, but from a responsible business perspective, you'd have to be completely retarded to refuse this. Microsoft looked at in the sense that their either threw in the DRM and had the content or they did not throw it in and they did not have the content. It could be more complicated than that, but honestly I think the blame rests more squarely on Hollywood than anyone else.

Re:Same story again

[RKBA]

Nah, I think the DRM in Vista is because of Microsoft's "War against piracy" at least as much as as it's due to Hollywood.

Re:Same story again

[Anonymous Coward]

War against piracy? Really?

That's downright exciting! Every time we declare war on something, it gets bigger!

Check out the war on drugs, homelessness, terror... I can't wait for a war on piracy!

doesn't need new drm to fail

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously now, fellow /.ers, as if Vista won't fail on its own merits. Doesn't really need new DRM to do that.

Just go with XP

[Ghostalker474]

XP is the standard for now, and with the success of Vista up in the air, XP will be the standard for a long, looong time. It's everywhere, and since most people don't have a real reason to upgrade to Vista (other then the 'pretty icons') you'll be left out in the cold when it comes to business.

Remember, Microsoft said Windows ME was the "wave of the future"... and look how that turned out.

To put it simply..

[olman]

..What choice consumers have? You buy a new PC, you will get vista. You want to play a (PC) game in 2008, you need vista.

So since there's no real alternative as you can't (legally) even transfer the OEM copy of XP you got with your old PC into the new PC, you're stuck with Vista, no matter how it is.

Re:To put it simply..

[pandrijeczko]

You want to play a (PC) game in 2008, you need vista.

If the past 5 years is anything to go by (since 2001 when XP was released), I don't think you'll be that worried about PC gaming in 2006 anyhow.

There's a definite decrease in the number of good PC games titles being released now - you can probably attribute that reason to the fact that free mods and maps on the Internet have extended the lives of many existing PC games long after any games company would want, as well as the uptake of MMORPGs like World Of Warcraft.

Games companies now want to release on consoles only (where piracy is much lower and the lifespan of games can be controlled much better) and the power of video cards on PCs has far exceeded where games are at - yes, if you want 2048 x 1536 games resolutions then SLI is for you but no other reason.

There may be other reasons why Vista might, in future, be seen as a success, but games won't be one of them, despite DirectX 10.

Re:To put it simply..

[olman]

Games companies now want to release on consoles only (where piracy is much lower and the lifespan of games can be controlled much better) and the power of video cards on PCs has far exceeded where games are at

Oh pshaw. Please don't trot out that tired, tired old straw man argument of "but there's less piracy on consoles" .. There's MORE piracy on consoles. A LOT more. If only because, well, lot more gaming going on with consoles.

A case in point, it's been possible for long time to play pirated games on XO but try playing region 1 game on region 2 console .. ha-ha.

And for PC graphics cards excessive power.. Uhh, yeah, so that's where ATI + Nvidia do the R&D which will be seen on next gen consoles in about 2-3 years. And your problem was again..?

Real GPU power goes to ever increasing schmancy effects such as HDR, resolution has nothing or very little to do with it. FWIW, XO chipset gives pretty good run for money for most PC graphics cards you can buy today.

And for what it's worth, some game genres do not exist for consoles and old farts like me like our strategy games just fine, thanks for asking.

Re:To put it simply..

[pandrijeczko]

Old farts like me also enjoy their strategy gaming.

So, pray tell me, what's been going on that's so super duper in the strategy games field for the past few years that I've missed out on? Because I can't remember that much...

When was the last Command and Conquer game? That would be "Generals", right? About three years ago?

Okay, so we've got "Supreme Commander" due at some point - but that would be about seven years since Total Annihilation was released?

Apart from that, we've had Civilisation sequels (not played anything beyond Civ 3 so I can't comment on the later ones), Heroes Of Might And Magic which peaked at HOMM 3 but then whoever bought the rights from 3D0 decided pretty graphics meant more than gameplay and made a bad job of HOMM 4 and an attrocious one of HOMM 5.

Master Of Orion III? Let's not even go there...

Starfleet Command was a promising idea that never got off the ground properly...

Rise Of Nations? Looked nice but after a couple of hours of gaming you soon realised that just following the same strategy allowed quick victories.

The ONLY saving grace for strategy recently has been Galactic Civilisations II which is a truly wonderful game.

Okay, so maybe I'm more of a fan of sci-fi and fantasy strategy gaming more than I am the "historical" type games but please do not tell me that strategy games benefit much from pretty graphics. If done correctly, like in GalCiv 2, they really add to the game but most companies have abandoned in-depth strategy games for eye candy because it's easier to hire a graphics artist than someone who can program a challenging AI.

Sorry, but face facts. Old farts like you and I are not the prime target of games companies - they'll target the teenage/early 20s audience because they know they can get away with recycling old racing games with just newer graphics.

And as for console piracy, it's getting less and less. Nintendo introduced the proprietary disk format on the Gamecube and PS3/XBox 360 use the new DRM disc formats to counter piracy - even on PS1 and PS2, you needed a mod chip to get anywhere with copying games on those consoles - far more complicated than downloading a crack for a PC game from the internet.

Re:To put it simply..

[olman]

There's good stuff on strategy games if you know where to look. Galciv2 is a fine example. Paradox has made many nifty timewasters. Then there's Nival and their Silent storm games (more like tactics but you get the idea, that sort of game doesn't exist on consoles althought there would be no technical reason why it couldn't)

Also on not-happening-on-consoles is stuff like Silent Hunter III, Steel Beasts Pro, Dangerous waters, Defcon ..

And on more mainstream front, Rome and Medieval II, faces of war, company of heroes, Dawn of war and of course, Civ IV..

With the average huge replayability of some of these titles there's simply more good stuff coming out than anyone can play and keep a day job.

Some of these titles are done on a proverbial shoestring budget and with services such as Steam indie developers can get their games to consumers (like me!) without doing the retail dance. Big bucks are in the retail to be sure, but if you have 3-4 guys in eastern europe as dev team, they can make pretty decent living on 10-20k online sales.

Consoles PWN the mainstream gaming for sure, but just like there's always going to be market for small-profile indie films..

It has already started...

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows media 11 disables your ability to record or watch movies with windows media center... Windows Media Player 11 takes away your rights

Out of curiosity - XP & Vista

[Karem Lore]

What is stopping me having an XP partition to [cough]backup[cough] my media into a non-DRM format and then using Vista to play them?

Any DRM in Vista will be useless to protecting any content until all previous Windows versions are completely eradicated from the market, something that doesn't usually happen for a good number of years.

Having said that, I don't tend to copy stuff, I tend to listen/watch and if I like it that much I will buy. The only reason that this scares the bejesus out of the record/film industry is that they won't sell as many dire movies/songs...In actual fact, I think it is a good way for the industry to work out what their customer base actually likes versus the hundreds of hours of complete crap that these places churn out on a yearly basis.

Karem

Vista will be the best thing ever happened toLinux

[itz2000]

Once Vista is out and people will be disappointed they will consider 2 solutions :
A. Going back to XP sp 2.
B. Switching to Linux.

I think Linux is the future, and once software companies will release everything in Linux as well (or only to Linux) Linux will make M$ Lose!
In fact, Vista looks like the best thing that is going to happen to Linux since Linus Torvald's had some free time back then at 1991.
GO OPEN SOURCE!

Doing it right...

[Joce640k]

"The problem is, none of the players have a clue how to do it right."

The problem is that ALL the players want to use DRM to create a lock-in monopoly.

Vista can afford failure

[acb]

Because of Microsoft's monopoly position on the desktop, they can afford to make the DRM experience as crappy as their content partners want them to, and it will still own >90% of the market. Even if it is painful to use, what alternatives are there? As slick as Ubuntu looks, the fact that it doesn't work with a lot of proprietary mass-market hardware (you can't sync your Pocket PC with it, or use it with MTP MP3 players (and don't even think about the Zune), or anything that needs a proprietary driver that hasn't been reverse-engineered) and doesn't run Windows software well puts it out of the running for most people. And OSX runs only on Apple hardware (which, incidentally, gives Apple the ability to cut build quality and costs, knowing that people will buy anything with an Apple logo if it's the only way to run OSX), putting it out of the cheap PC market (there are cheap Mac Minis, but they're underpowered compared to cheap commodity PCs).

The great majority of the public has no alternative to Windows. They may grumble and complain, but at the end of the day, they're locked in and Microsoft know this. And if they lived with viruses, worms, spyware, malware, keylogger trojans and DDOS zombienets, they can live with draconian DRM.

Re:Vista can afford failure

[anubi]

Microsoft hasn't been pushing this "Zune" nearly as much as I thought they would.

I wonder sometimes if Microsoft is putting the Zune out there just to demonstrate just what a failure a DRM-encumbered technology would be in the marketplace.

If Microsoft can point to a disastrous market penetration, they may be able to tell the content creators to lighten up a bit before they destroy the customers they have.

Or, alternatively, they may go buy laws from Congress to have Open Source technology outlawed, just as they had mod-chips outlawed.

That's the one I fear - when it is illegal to one to know how one's own technology works - at least in this country anyway.

Evil uses for DRM

[sowth]

Yes, but how long until they will also start charging to make copies of anything? Say you want to transfer those pictures you took on your camera to your computer. I'm betting after a while camera companies and MS will get in bed so they can charge you for that. They'll probably call it a developing fee or something.

They already fooled my mother into thinking she has to buy "developing" packs to print out pictures she takes, that is the only thing she understands. They cost about the same as taking it to a photo place to develop. I try to tell her she can copy them to her computer, but well...she doesn't get it.

Of course, photographers and those who understand will search for nonDRM cameras, but I think plenty of (probably older) people will be fooled.

Will probably be the same for many other things. It will probably have to be slipped in slowly, but I think they will at least try it. I suppose the good side is it'll push more people away from proprietary crap and into more open standards. Let's just hope it won't be too late.

Re:Evil uses for DRM

[smittyoneeach]

Say you want to transfer those pictures you took on your camera to your computer. I'm betting after a while camera companies and MS will get in bed so they can charge you for that.

That seems really stupid, but think about it: a video recorder that compresses the movie to an insane level. It probably does work to pull the movie off the hardware and decompress it locally, but you (purportedly) save a lot of time if you ship it upstream to a vendor site for decompression/storage/editing, then (maybe) pull it down locally, or just have it mailed as a DVD.
The trick to the model is that the odious lock-in isn't foisted on the user by itself, but comes in a nice wrapper.
I guess I could have phrased that differently, but the double entendre is apropos.

Re:Evil uses for DRM

[Reziac]

That's an incredibly disgusting thought, but sadly I think you're right, as it's a natural outgrowth of two factors:

The increasing push back to making the PC a dumb terminal (all your data are belong to our server), ...and devices that already exist, frex "disposable" digital cameras, where you have to take them back to the store to get prints made.

Repeat after me..

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM amounts to a serial chain of single points of failure, and is based on version 1 hardware and software.

Again:

DRM amounts to a serial chain of single points of failure, and is based on version 1 hardware and software.

You're dealing with encryption, which means a single flaw can render your information inaccessible or, worse, unrecoverable. You're dealing with multiple systems which will all have to do their job 100% right to allow access to the data, and on top of that this is the first time anyone has been so stupid to try and pull this off, so every single part of this motly collection is new, shiny and untested in the real world, hardware as well as software.

I don't know which blindingly stupid moron has cooked up this idea, but he's no worse than the moron who will actually pay for this to become a corporate standard and then see a single bug render corporate data inaccessible. And remember, unlike other products, with software liability lies with YOU, not with the vendor. MS et all will quite comfortably walk away from your problem, whilst counting the cash they extracted from you. Call it being taxed for being stupid.

Only if your cranial invasion of your rectal cavity is so extensive that you can see the back of your tonsils should you be so stupid to fall for this. And even then.

Does it have to be linux or will open standardsdo?

[sowth]

the point is to get a critical mass of the technically competent users and the enthusiasts to leave Windows (mostly, if not fully) for Linux.

Why does it matter if they go to Linux? I think it would be as helpful (if not more so) if they just went over to any system which runs on open standards. OS X, Linux, FreeBSD, or some new kid on the block, it doesn't matter. When developers realize they can write applications and they will compile to all those platforms, possibly being able to create binaries which work on most, if not all (assuming they are running compatible processor archs), then you won't have to worry if the new OS will run your programs, because the developer would have a binary avaliable for you.

Forced???

[pandrijeczko]

The article notes that many of the DRM technologies were forced upon Vista by the entertainment industry

Microsoft has *chosen* to jump into bed with the media companies in order to gain substantial revenue from licensing the DRM technologies, there is nothing *forced* here whatsoever - end of story.

If Microsoft really wanted to finally play the good guy and be on the side of consumer freedoms, there is a whole free software movement out there that would be more than willing to work with Microsoft in deploying open standards and formats correctly within Windows - even if MS kept Windows and Office totally closed source, both Microsoft and the free software movement would have much to benefit from such an "alliance".

The fact is that with open standards and file formats, a huge number of software creators throughout the globe can create imaginative new applications for dealing with data transmission and communications - when everything is closed and locked down, only those that know the standards can innovate with new ideas... and it's quite clear that Microsoft is running out of ideas these days.

If Vista fails then it will be because the users see no reason to upgrade to it - due to lack of new features and content, excessively tight consumer rights restriction, too high a price tag or a combination of them all.

When I see Microsoft do a lot more to embrace open standards, maybe then I'll have some sympathy for them. But if they've become a "pawn" of the media companies then they made that bed so they can damn well lie in it!!!

The average consumer....

[Stanislav_J]

....doesn't know about DRM and doesn't care. The average consumer has never used a P2P network, never ripped or copied CDs or DVDs, never format-shifted, never even heard of alternate OS, etc. Until and unless it keeps average people from doing normal, everyday things with media, no one will care. And I mean a major percentage of people having problems doing everyday things -- there are so many glitches and problems that affect M$ computers in so many ways that folks are almost used to it. (I've always said that if your stove, oven, and toaster worked as reliably as a Windows machine, we'd all be eating out all the time.) Vista is a mass-market product aimed at the average consumer -- not geeks, /.ers, and the like. They don't give a rat's ass about what the sort of people on this site care about.

Re:The average consumer....

[pandrijeczko]

The average consumer has never used a P2P network, never ripped or copied CDs or DVDs, never format-shifted, never even heard of alternate OS, etc.

I think you're confusing "has never used" with "has no knowledge of the inner workings of".

My experiences in fixing PCs of a large number of friends and relatives (= average consumers) is that they are fully aware of how and where to download MP3s and DivX movies from - especially if there's teenage kids using those PCs. Just about every PC I fix is "chock full" of the stuff, invariably I'm fixing each PC because a virus downloaded through a P2P client has trashed it.

On several occasions, I've installed Linux as a dual boot OS on those PCs also, usually for the parents so they can have an environment to write emails, do their eBaying and surf the Internet without it being trashed by their kids and viruses.

My point is that average consumers, whether illegally or not, have grown accustomed to being able to download a lot of this stuff freely - and if it gets to the point where they can no longer do that, then they will notice.

Re:Wait a minute.. (Vista and DRM)

[ElBeano]

Vista will succeed or fail based on other characteristics of the OS, not DRM. The DRM will not push folks to Linux en masse. It will make many folks stop and think. What we will see (and I state this with absolute confidence) is the emergence of new players in content/media provision. Artists will, in larger numbers, begin to think differently about signing with the major labels when there are successful peers working outside of this "system". Content "consumers" will increasingly look to new sources for their music/etc. This takes time because new content is a tiny tip of the iceberg. Tight control over back catalogs is an important cash cow to the current, dominant players, insuring their continued relevance for years to come. Nevertheless, change is coming.

Re:Vista will be the best thing ever happened toLi

[pandrijeczko]

Most of we Linux users were saying the same thing when XP was coming out in 2001 - that people would stay on Windows 2000 or switch to Linux.

Since then, the visibilty and user base of Linux has increased dramatically, I'm sure there are a lot more people dual-booting it with Windows in 2006 than there were in 2001 and certainly in the enterprise, the take up of Linux as a server platform has been phenomenal - but as a Linux user and fan, I can't say it's displaced too many Windows desktops so far.

I certainly don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but Linux, as it stands today, presents a whole heap of new problems to commercial software companies. For example, how do they make money from a commercial application on a free OS? Where do they draw the line between their own copyright and the GPL? How do they write their applications so that they can install successfully on the myriad of different Linux distros there are out there? These are all questions that need to be considered.

From my own perspective, I'll use a "build my own" Gentoo Linux distribution for my home and work PCs, but if a friend or colleague wants Linux, then I'll point them towards an "out of box" distro like Fedora or Ubuntu. The point I'm trying to make is that with Linux, there is no "one size fits all" as there has been with Windows.

I'm not criticising your comments but if people do migrate from Windows to Linux, then they should do so having made an informed decision and having been given all the facts before doing so.

Microsoft has lied to users and let them down with poor security and unfulfilled promises - we must make sure that Linux does not do the same to those people who do choose the alternative path.

Isn't it Ironci

[Anonymous Coward]

I love reading about the Thai Minister slamming Open Source on the Bangkok Post site...running on Useless buggy Apache

Honestly...

[s31523]

Who wants a super-max high security prison for a computer? All the fun is going to be sucked out of computers with this DRM crap.

Will Vista kill DRM?

[thethibs]

"It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail -- and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose."

This would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

Vista will rule!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one of the more insightful ideas behind why DRM will fail. Consumers (eventually) will refuse to accept that the audio from a disc they just bought at the store cannot be played on their portable player.

Most people are lemmings and not capable of thinking on their own. You need to tell them what's for dinner (Beef, of course!), who to vote for (a Republican or Democrat), what music to listen to (Go Clear Chanel!), who to worship (God otherwise you'll go to hell), and what to buy.

Vista will rule over all because Microsoft will spend (my guess) between $500,000,000.00 and $1,000,000,000.00) marketing it and they're going to get everyone to worship it. Vista will rule!

Yeah, yeah, Troll me.

Bitlocker and TPM

[blankoboy]

Somewhat off topic from the parent but a valid question (I hope), if Bitlocker relies on the TPM to store the decryption keys what happens to your drive if the TPM module dies? Are you screwed with a permanently locked drive?

Re:Bitlocker and TPM

[mrsteveman1]

^^^^^^^ Theres a recovery key, which shows you how INSECURE the encryption is in the first place, if one can get at the data without the tpm anyway, the difference being its probably impossible to fake the original tpm linked to a drive, while its not impossible at all to make a good try to crack an ASCII string like a recovery key/password regardless of how long the cipher is. Since most peoples computers wont have a tpm for a while, the only way to use bitlocker will be by using a small usb drive with the key on it when you start vista, it seems to work just as well like that, and vista will let you put the recovery key on another usb drive to ensure you can access the data later.

This shows

[Wooky_linuxer]

How even Slashdot readers are uniformed about breaking DRM and copy-protection in general.

Re:Until...

[vertinox]

Joe and Jane Sixpack have been getting DRM since the opening of the iTunes store and they love it.

Until their hard drive crashes or they get a new computer.

Oh... Whats that you say? Backups? Mr and Mrs Sixpack make backups? Yeah... Um... Right...
I suppose they could call Apple tech support and have them figure out how to transfer music rights from one computer to another or re-authorize them to download from iTunes.

Oh... You forgot to buy the Apple Care protection plan? Oh well... I guess it never hurts to shell out some money to talk to Apple tech support.

And don't forget... The common user will never call tech support unless they have no other option and many will take things back to the store before trying.

No Demise, No "Disaffected Customers"

[mpapet]

None of that will happen. Microsoft has nothing to fear for disaffected customers because there will be so few.

Take a look at this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Price_settin g_for_unregulated_monopolies (or not)

A monopoly strongly tends to produce at a lower quantity (Qm) versus a competitive market. (Qc)

For you and all consumers, that translages into:
1. Microsoft is a price maker. They alone set the price and define the functionality for their OS and get to drive the cost of the computer package up accordingly. They will probably provide at Quantity Qm instead of Qc to OEM's like Dell who have no choice but to pass on that cost to you.

2. They will only provide their OS at successively higher prices and lower quantity. There is no reason to believe the price they demand will ever go down or the features offered will increase at the same given price. This is why there are 6+/- different SKU's of Vista in various modes of broken. Next OS it will probably have add-on subscriptions much like phone company services where you will end up paying more for less functionality but not noticing because you won't track the incremental costs nor will you acknowledge or recognize the loss of personal freedom.

3. Microsoft and it's entertainment mega-corp content buddies will define what you can and cannot do with their content. You don't have anything to say about it. Are the entertainment mega-corps "hurting" now? Have they been over the last few years? No.

There is no path where Microsoft becomes enlightened and lowers their prices to provide the quantity and features the market demands. History has proven this repeatedly.

Re:Why would anyone have a problem with hardware D

[Samhain]

You can backup the BitLocker key from the TPM module AFAIK

Bad mistake

[SuperKendall]

No indeed!

What I meant to say was a disk that holds an order of magnitude more data that current CD/DVD media...

Indeed a 5 TB optical disk is a little ahead of the game, even going holographic...

Thanks for the correction.

This comment caught my attention...

[Cruise_WD]

"Microsoft was dealing here with a group of companies that simply don't trust the hardware [industry]," Rosoff said. "They wanted more control and more security than they had in the past" -- and if Microsoft failed to accommodate them, "they were prepared to walk away from Vista" by withholding support for next-generation DVD formats and other high-value content.

The companies were prepared to walk away from Vista? Really? All MS had to do was have a message box pop up saying:

"Vista is unable to play this disc because the company that made it was afraid you would illegally copy it."

A few of those messages to the millions that will form the userbase and even the proles would be storming the RIAA offices...

You almost had that analogy right

[SuperKendall]

An analogy that describes how I see this goes something like "There's a firing squad deployed outside your front door to shoot at you, but for the first little while they'll be shooting blanks, so you don't have to worry about getting killed."

You had that pretty close - there are guns, and right now they are firing blanks.

But they aren't aimed at the door, they are aimed at the media companies feet.

That's why they are blanks today, because the people who actually count the money said "Whoa, we are cutting out a lot of consumers here who in turn will not buy our product". That's going to last for a long time.

But over a long enough period, the companies will simply forget they are even firing at all, if consumers embrace the format. Once real revenue starts coming in there will be no need to enable the flag because every attempt to do so will be met by a cascade of consumer complaints and returns. Each real bullet will cause pain enough to go back to blanks.

Once the means are entrenched, you can be sure they'll be used.

Just like our vegistal tails?

Something entrenched but not used tends to fade away over time.

Re:You almost had that analogy right

[SleepyHappyDoc]

That's one way of looking at it, certainly, but I'm a touch more suspicious. I think, when hardware that supports ICT is in the hands of enough people, it will be enabled on the media. By then, it'll have been active-but-not-used on most people's players and displays for some time, and turning it on on the media won't be noticed by the majority of their customers. They're just biding their time until the amount of players and displays (mainly displays) reaches the critical mass they need. And when that mass is reached, everyone who isn't on board will feel the pinch. I seriously doubt they bothered to include it without a long-term plan.

DRM forced me to find free media instead

[Basho]

On the flipside, I've started seeking out more free-media. Of course 'Corporate America' has spent lots of money trying to convince us that the only thing worth listening to is music from big labels, with lots and lots of marketing (and videos, back in the day).

But it doesn't take long with Google to find lots of amazing, free music. Wikipedia and the Creative Common sites have many sources, Songird makes it easier to find, and many small independent labels have lots of great content.

Re:Does it have to be linux or will open standards

[bersl2]

I think I was thinking that the companies attracted by the critical mass would be put off if they still had to put up with too many APIs (GTK+ and QT and Cocoa (or whatever the hell the primary OS X libraries are)). So I chose the one I use, on the assumption that people wouldn't want to have to buy a new computer just to use OS X, and the assumption that most people won't go for a BSD, for whatever reason (right or wrong).

I think I was thinking this, but I'm not sure anymore.

I Hope So

[YetAnotherBob]

DRM has so far killed every company that has tried to stuff it down consumers throats. I expect that trend to continue.

cracking will get harder

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who think that cracking the next generation DRM is inevitable, you better check out the specs on the next generation hardware (Blu-ray in particular). Unlike DVD which only required you to crack a single scheme for all DVD playback, Blu-ray makes it possible for every single disc to have its own code to crack. In addition, Blu-ray specifies mechanisms to update players in the field with new algorithms - something DVD lacked.

So for one, the effort to crack a single media file may not be leveragable on a different title. And if the basic underlying algorithms are compromised, blu-ray providers can simply provide updates to players and media producers to restart the hack/break cycle.

Computer and existing displays

[SuperKendall]

I think that if the PS3 had kept HDMI out of the base model, it would have made certain that ICT would never have been enabled - I was rather sad when HDMI became standard on both models.

However, what makes me think it will not be turned on even despite that is that there are millions of HD displays that do not support HDCP, and the lifespan of these devices is 10-15 years. That is long enough to take us to the cycle of the next HD media, and provides millions of angry consumers to create blowback from any attempt at enablement.

Also computer users will have a role with an unknown number of PC's simply connected to existing CRT or LCD monitors with no HDCP (the vast majority of monitors sold today).

Cracking Diffie-Hellman and Elliptic Curves

[cpghost]

Actually, most encryption schemes are based on the difficulty of factoring big intergers; even elliptic curves algorithms haven't yet found widespread use outside the crypto community. So assuming that this problem is cracked, nearly every encryption scheme in use today (including all their variants) will break down immediately.

Now, as soon as big mega corps with deep pockets start losing very valuable data because of lost encryption keys ("hardware failures"), they'll get mad about it and will start frantically financing crypto research. Until now, only the likes of NSA can afford big staffs of highly talented cryptoanalysts; but once becoming a cryptoanalyst becomes profitable to mere mortals, cryptology could very well get a huge boost out of it. And with more people doing research in that area, the probability that DH or EC get cracked raises too - who knows? Perhaps even exponentially?

Even if it's illegal in some parts of the "free" world to crack DRM, who cares? Once a few mega corps badly need to recover their DRM-ed/encrypted data, they'll buy better laws through the usual channels. Even the RIAA/MPAA cartell won't be able to stop them then.

Vista DRM

[iviagnus]

I will NOT be *upgrading* LOL to Vista EVER due to its' DRM. I reserve the right to copy my purchased content in order to protect it from media degradation and to also allow use on multiple devices I own. If there comes a day that my copy of XP can't run the software I need it to, whether that be an word processing application or a utility to copy purchased content, I will be moving to another *non-windows* OS. Here's a full bird salute for you, Microshaft. Wake up! Your customers damand it.