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Vista an Uneasy Sleeper
Emmy King writes "
One thing we just can't wrap our mind about is the terrible, broken, and completely pitiful support for waking Vista up from a Deep Sleep or hibernation.Anytime you attempt to wake Vista up from Hibernation or "Deep Sleep" (S3-induced sleep mode), it dies. It's either a BSOD, or a driver error, or a broken network, no DWM, lack of sound... the list goes on, and on. So much for an operating system to "power" the future! (No pun intended!) That's with properly-signed drivers and no buggy software on multiple PCs..."
Linux: Ritalin for your new vista box
So which of those 9 shut-down options can we eliminate now? Probably all but the one that goes "shut the hell off"?
stuff |
S3 is plain old suspend/sleep. hibernate/deep sleep implies suspend to disk and total power down, and is S4. And the word S3-induced makes no sense, S3 is a state entered into, not an active thing.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Each new release, each patch, each service pack I keep waiting for the perfect, all-right-I'll-settle-for-well-behaved advanced power control. I find this unsettling Vista may not deliver. One "feature" I always treasure in Windows systems is its "better" support for power control.
At least Windows with its more cozy relationship with chip and BIOS industry supposedly offers ACPI for fast "sleep" and "rewake" functionality. In fact that was my trick way to get ACPI for linux when it was really important by running a vmware install of linux within a well behaved windows (not always as well behaved as I'd have wished, but better than the problematic ACPI linux support).
And now, out of the gates (sic) Vista may not deliver? That's going to leave a mark. I'd considered getting a machine for educational purposes (since I do support for everyone I know), but I'd considered waiting for some of the initial bugs to get ironed out. I just didn't expect this big of an initial speedbump. Guess there's not much to do but wait for Microsoft to get it right, or close to right.
Also, I thought I'd read they were offering super-sized power control a la scheduled up and down times, etc. More vaporware?
I'm still amazed they get to skate on this kind of stuff.
Microsoft, meet PC. PC, meet buggy software. It's called "Vista", "Office", "Windows"...
So someone fucks it up and it's irrevocably broken? I've used both sleep and hibernate functions on my laptop since Vista was beta 1 and both have worked beautifully. Both features require decent support from the hardware, not just "signed drivers."
...I didn't know Vista was out yet. Thought it was still in the debuggng stage...
Or maybe I'm still sleeping and this is a dream. Vista released with major operational flaws. Now that's a Linux promotion!
I'd like to know where this completely bug free software comes from. The last completely bug-free software I saw was Hello World.
Once I went laptop-only, hibernating became the truth, the light and the way. Before that I never hibernated because I never shut the desktop off.
Interesting that TFA says Vista hibernated fine in beta but not in the release version. Oddly, Xp hibernated flawlessly on my laptop but openSuSE 10.1 hangs every time. No Linux distro hibernates this particular laptop (toshiba). We'll see if 10.2 will as soon as ATI gets done developing Vista drivers and gives us a driver for Xorg 7.2
1 in 4 Maine children in struggle with hunger.
It doesn't look to me like there was no pun intended...
It will happen.
Why wake it up? Let it DIE DIE DIE....
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Make that:
Linux: It sucks less.
Slashdot's editors think Vista will fail and is shit. WE GET IT.
Now, please, find some worthwhile articles to post. This obsession with Vista-bashing is getting very very tiring.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
(Slashdot -> MSN; Vista -> Linux; Microsoft -> Linus; Linux -> Vista; Borg -> Communists)
For the perfect anti-Unix, write an OS that thinks it knows what you're doing better than you do and let it be wrong.
When did microsoft send out the memo that telling the truth about a Vista product is now to be called FUD?
Dammit! I miss all the good memos!
I'm vociferously anti-MS; but in this case, I believe they deserve a small pardon. Go read the ACPI specifications sometime. You will cry and beg for mercy. ACPI is horrible. Considering the small number of requirements the real world has for such an interface, the specification is vast beyond imagining. Linux has also had long standing problems producing a proper ACPI layer, for this very reason: ACPI is a pig.
Now it is worth noting that MS themselves contributed to the development of this specification. The cynical side of me believes that confounding the competition by way of impenetrable specifications is simply Microsoft's modis operandi. Look at Microsoft's OpenXML specification for example: while in theory it meets the European requirement for documenting file formats and protocols, in practice it's ~6,000 pages will certainly confound all but the most determined attempts at interoperability. But here's the rub: Microsoft has to eat their own dog food, and they are suffering the consequences. Microsoft's operating system and applications are becoming so piggish that even Microsoft can't manage them.
Huh. I've got two systems here with Vista running on them, a Dell e1505 notebook and a not-as-new homebuilt Athlon X2 system, and on both of them both hibernate and sleep "Just Work." In fact, Vista's been less problematic in all areas than XP could ever dream of being.
They don't quite Bill's 6 second boot time either - but both systems clock in right around 10 seconds, and that's pretty hard to complain about.
In XP's shutdown-menu you can press and hold SHIFT to see more options, -the standby becomes hibernate, if nothing else-; isn't this a possibility in Vista, aswell?
A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
"lack of sound" is not "dying". That's only in there to make the list longer, and that reveals the true intention of the article.
Is every commercial Linux distribution free of similar issues? No sir, it is not. Some enterprise distros even cost more than Vista. So let's not be biased and pathetic, but be open to the fact that the world isn't perfect, and that Vista is going to be ubiquitous whether your mistakenly elitist, cliquey nerd circle likes it or not.
It might be the end of the day, time to go home, huggle the wife and get some sleep and stuff? Nice to have everything the way you when tomorrow morning.comes. Or your server might need replacing the UPS. Hibernate is one easy way to get this done.
Just guessing, of course. I use hibernation every day with my Debian laptop.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
I've had fewer problems with my laptop since installing vista than I ever had with linux.
.. but vista sleeping and waking up works just fine.
... whereas it seems to work now in vista just fine?
Pretty much everything worked 'out-the-box' -- including video (although I ultimately had to go download the vista drivers from ATI to get any kind of acceleration), sound, even suspend/sleep (although, microsoft renaming hibernate to sleep confused me at first).
There are plenty of places where microsoft seems to suck across the board
BTW - this sleeping is a feature that I never did get 100% working properly in linux -- and what I WAS able to get working right required I bounce around a few websites ultimatly doing my own research
This feature works just great here, making it quite impossible it's due to Vista (unless my Vista is magic), but rather due to hardware drivers after all.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
MS claims that Vista is the cure for everything from Global Warming to the common cold.
Sometimes you just have to hold a company to its promises. If the OS is released, it is being installed on computers that will be sold for this Christmas. If there are bugs that affect simple operations it is a serious problem.
Those were no typos. I just destroyed you!!!
BTW, it's funny how the parent is flamebait, while replacing a few words makes you insightful. Moderators, make up your mind.
-Henry IV. Part II.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
S3 (Suspend) doesn't exactly work wonderfully under other operating systems either. It's highly dependant on the motherboard chipset being used, and all attached hardware.
I would be quicker to condem Microsoft if Linux (or FreeBSD preferably) could properly suspend and resume ANY of my systems properly. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.
FreeBSD-6.2 was the closest I got... If I pull out my videocard and use the onboard, it actually resumes successfully.
Though the onboard video (Savag) really blows, and I haven't yet found any version of X.org that doesn't regularly crash when using that particular driver.
And both the onboard nic, and my SBlive card stop working, and I have to manually reload the kernel module every time I resume...
And with all of those addeniums, that's the closest I've ever gotten to getting Suspend to work (and being forced to use the onboard video is a complete show-stopper). In fact, the latest snapshot of 7.0 was actually a downgrade, and wouldn't resume from S3 at all.
So the problem can't lie entirely with Microsoft (though they are partly to blame for the extremely lax and often Windows-centric ACPI practices). Hardware manufacturers bare a great deal of the responsibility for making their ACPI implimentations buggy as all hell to begin with... So much so that even Microsoft apparently can't even work-around it.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Didn't you know with the latest version of vista you dont need silly things like sleep mode and the ability to turn it off. As a matter of fact just continue on with your daily life while we observe your species and report our findings to the little green men from Mars. And allow them to invade before you can put on your Tin Foil Hats.
We currently have 4 systems running Vista RTM and a not one of them has any problem waking up from hibernate. They are a mix of P4, AMD XP, and Athlons.
We had Vista RC1 & 2 on other systems, both desktops & laptops, and they behaved perfectly as well.
They all respond perfectly to Wake-On-LAN too. I know this because our tape backup system sends WOL packets to the systems to do the backups.
--I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
The bugs that always amaze me are the ones that seemingly would have been caught if anyone had ever actually tried the feature even once.
..."
..."
The only way I can account for something like this is that perhaps when a bug exhibits "protean symptoms" (fails in a different way every time), one could imagine in a completely bureaucratic, micromanaged corporate environment, instead of being registered as "this always fails," it could be registered as two hundred completely different bug descriptions, each specific description having been recorded only once and therefore judged by management to be unimportant.
"Fails with blue screen of death reading 0687FF13 618AC003
being regarded as a "different" bug from
"Fails with blue screen of death reading 31469B21 96CB2022
And before people start saying "blame the hardware," it's Microsoft's job to make sure that Vista does work on every PC certified for it. The days when DOS said "Toshiba DOS" or "PC-DOS" or "NEC DOS" are long gone. The name on the product is Microsoft WIndows and it's Microsoft's responsibility to see that it works.
It's Microsoft's choice whether to do this by making their code robust, or jawboning vendors at WinHEC, or pressuring vendors.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Perhaps it does not wake up properly because, as the website states, there is "No input file specified."
Well, there goes that blog entry. Entire site crashes and presents a "no input file specified" error. Nice.
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
Just wondering, I'm sure it does..someone show me...
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
Well, your Macbook is broken, and you should get Apple to fix it. I've never met a Mac user who would put up with that.
On the other hand, Windows users are used to that kind of thing. I presume you're new to the Mac?
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
I don't have any laptops with the power to actually run Vista so how it comes out of hibernation is irrelevant. I don't think that Vista is going to be a laptop friendly OS in the first place given that internal hardware upgrades are nearly impossible.
You don't have a laptop, do you?
--
RumorsDaily
The pun was clearly intended, otherwise there would not have been quotation marks around 'power'.
Why can't we all just be honest about our use of puns? Puns are not always bad. There's no need to be ashamed of them.
52 52'23" W 47 32'07" N
I just opened my laptop and turned it on, and it resumed from a hibernate just fine (running Vista Business release version). No blue screen, no network problems, it put me right back where I was before with a perfectly functional session. I hate Windows as much as every other Unix geek, but it sounds to me like this is a classic case of "not enough research" ... or if you prefer, "fud".
Nope, and if you're leaving your laptop on just plug it into the wall and leave it on works with a screensaver yes? The little I know about Sleep mode tends to lean towards the lolworthless side, so if you have any info I have not yet been made privy to then please divulge it good sir!
> Linux: It doesn't suck. Indeed. Ubuntu 6.10 wakes up from hibernation just fine, and quickly, even on my old computers. How hard can it be?
How hard? Very!
Linux has had 2 (3?) separate attempts to get hibernate support working properly and while it is pretty good now it still isn't perfect.
--I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
So the problem can't lie entirely with Microsoft (though they are partly to blame for the extremely lax and often Windows-centric ACPI practices).
That is precisely why it is Microsoft's fault: instead of having manufacturers code against a spec and a detailed test suite, they code and test against Windows. And Microsoft usually likes that. If they didn't like it, they'd create a public test suite and simplify the specs to the point where they can actually be implemented easily.
"That's with properly-signed drivers and no buggy software on multiple PCs..."
And by "no buggy software" you mean, Linux?
Mod points are a dangerous tool. Abuse them wisely.
For now, if you really need to keep your PC on all day and all night, stick to XP, Linux, Mac OS X, or SkyOS!
Global Warning Denial USA Rules OK!!
Random blogger has computer problems, documents them on his homepage, blames manufacturer
Film at 11.00
Of course Vista will be a cure for global warming! Think of all of the computers that will be rendered useless by this OS and will be powered down.
...or "No input file specified."
I am always uneasy when business customers ask about sleep, heres a few of the things which bug me
What happens with network applications (take google earth as an example - it connects and logs in at program start)?
How about a domain?
What happens if you go to sleep on one domain and wake up plugged into another?
What happens when you wake up outside the login hours?
What happens if your server slot is taken for an application (because you disconnected and someone else took it)?
What happens if you are editing a networked (word etc) document at the time, can people edit it whilst you are asleep?
Will your application pick up where it left off or display the edited document?
Its things like this which prevent us from recommending sleep or hibernate to our clients.
If the hibernate just allows the core OS to be brought up without problems then that doesn't help people who use their computers too much.
liqbase
...we wait for Vista SP1 before making the jump.
Also, because DX10 cards (and titles) will be ubiquitous by then.
Why do I have this urge to post the entire Monte Python "Dead Parrot" sketch?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
That method wastes a fair amount of power. I prefer the way I go now: I close the lid, the computer hibernates, on the morning, I open & press the power button, finds & plugs in the mouse and power, say good morning on so on... and then the laptop is good to go.
Also, stuffing the laptop in a bag without powerdown would make it rather hot?
I wish I could do this with my main computer, but alas, the one piece of proprietary software (nvidia's drivers) prevents this.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
You just told us what the ACPI problem is : Intel's buggy ACPI hardware.
My PowerBook (and my sisters iBook) have no problems...
btw. my IBM ThinkPad A31p (SuSE 9.3) do sleep well too...
... the poster's blog is hosted on a Vista box, as it seems to have fallen asleep. Or been Slashdotted.
Anyhow, I've been running Vista RC1 since it was released (and the beta before that) and never had a problem with the sleep function. Other problems, yes, but none with sleep and none so bad I'd complain about them (mostly my preferences vs. Microsoft's, predictable stuff like that).
In fact, I was just telling my wife the other day (she just melts when I talk sweet to her like this) that the sleep/hibernate function in Vista is so much more stable than it used to be that I haven't actually had my laptop all the way off in a few weeks -- I just open and close it as needed, and it wakes right back up and grabs whatever network it sees. I never had this work so well with XP or W2K.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Sounds like other users have administrative access on your laptop (why are other people logging in to your laptop?) and installed some software that runs continuously or at regular intervals. Perhaps a bit-torrent server? You may want to try using the sleep command from the Apple menu.
I sure hope you don't use the hibernate command in Windows. Welcome to file corruption city, particularly after multiple uses without restarting your computer.
Congratulations! You have been awarded the coveted Slashdot Groupthink Of The Week award!
Windows Vista has been available to MSDN subscribers for a few weeks now. From Business Basic right up to Ultimate Edition, in both x86 and x64.
I just opened my laptop and turned it on, and it resumed from a hibernate just fine (running Vista Business release version).
One success does not undo a lifetime of failure.
While I see users come into our computer store weekly, with all the sleep and hibernation features working fine, a partner on the other hand says he's never seen one work right. It's so 'broken' in XP, 98, ME that it's branded a Microsoft problem every single time instead of an ACPI problem, or a driver issue that the vendor didn't work out. Irregardless I think many people have no business mandating that it's all broken without having ever tried to call any tech support to get that one guy who wants to do his job. Tracking down a blue screen's cause helps and in many cases helps get you closer to a real Google answer, which is something I've never seen another tech do... Debugging on a windows machine. In tracking down bugs, I'm sure Microsoft, Dell, HP, Gateway, Intel, MSI, Giga-byte, Asus, Abit, Award, AMI, ECS, Soyo and others all want these features to work. Any bug tracking includes hundreds of samples, not just 20 odd motherboards or recollections from many years: after all if it's been broken and never works, then why is Microsoft still trying to do it... give it up.
Sleep is for girls, n00bs, and douchebags. The rest of us leave 'em up on all the time. And fuck laptops. If you need to write code on holiday then you're not a real developer. Real developers don't *go* on holiday.
One thing we just can't wrap our mind about is the terrible, broken, and completely pitiful support for waking Vista up from a Deep Sleep or hibernation
The only problem I have is Microsoft's continued claim of working power management. I don't know any Windows users who are able to use power management. I've never seen someone open a Windows laptop and just use it, they always have to boot. Even if the OS itself comes up, they say an application like Word screws up what they were doing and the system just works better with frequent reboots. Corporate users, of course, would love to have the power savings for their thousands of desktops and the labor savings of not having to wait for a boot but have to tell their employees to boot every day instead. Given this history it would have been nothing short of a miracle if Vista worked.
The extreme irony here is that M$ has all the advantages but does not work as well as alternatives. They helped make both APM and ACPI. They also enjoy a tremendous hardware advantage due to cross licensing and vendor extortion. Both "standards" are typical M$ monstrosities, being "extensible" and having frequent "upgrades" which make implementation complex. The ACPI specs are said to be 500 pages long. You would think all of the inside information and help they have would overcome that for them but it's not so. Free software kicks their ass all over the place. These days, I never have a problem with APM on any laptop that supports it. ACPI has a good chance of working too. Oh yeah, everything else under Linux works once the laptop wakes up: programs, video, sound etc. The best way to show someone that there is nothing wrong with their laptop is to boot a recent live CD. Yes, it wakes up that way too. If it does not it's either broken on non standards conforming, which are two sides of the same coin.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Vista will be the best thing ever for third world countries. Do you realise how much PCs will become obsolete the moment it hits the shelves? A large percentage of those PC will be donated to aid organisations, who will install Ubuntu and ship them to Africa.
For the perfect anti-Unix, write an OS that thinks it knows what you're doing better than you do and let it be wrong.
- Consider it news worthy.
- Think that things are slow on this sunday am.
- Just found it interesting.
Or maybe all of these. But there are plenty of articles of dubios origins bashing Linux that are submitted by ACs (apparently MS employees like to keep quiet).The simple fact is that you will find both pro and con articles here. If you do not like it, then you can go to heck.
The 3 machines I have Vista Ultimate running on seem just fine coming out of hibernation... sound/video/etc all work just fine... I have it running on a nice Conroe 6700, a IBM T30 laptop and another IBM T42 laptop... all work, wakeup, sleep, hibernate, reboot, etc... guess i am one of the few...
sig goes here!
My Mac is the first computer I've ever owned that had a functional sleep mode. Every PC I had previously had problems waking up from sleep (in Windows or Linux). Right now my PC running Gentoo will sleep for about 5 seconds before it wakes itself up. XP will wake and then hang. Fun times.
Vista is the only OS I've used that has ever been able to wake up from sleep and hibernate properly.
The OP makes it sound like their experience applies to everyone, so I have to call FUD on this.
At any rate, I have zero problems with these features, using Vista Home Ultimate 64 bit.
Sounds like FUD or a an improper install. My laptop works just fine
You say you've been using Vista "since beta 1". But which are you using now, still one of the beta versions, or the final (which isn't available to run-of-the-mill consumers yet)? TFA says:
Throughout the beta, Deep Sleep in Windows Vista went great. [...] But in the final version of Windows Vista, something is very, very majorly wrong.
The problem is in the final version only, not a beta. This wasn't mentioned in the Slashdot summary, though, which could have saved confusion for those that don't RTFA.
Yeah, right -- I bet it had a buffer overflow in printf or something!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Why is it Microsoft's job to simplify a process so it can be better implemented by their competitors?
From a business standpoint? It isn't Microsoft's job. From a technical standpoint? That should be obvious. (Quality control, ease of implementation, etc.)
The fact they prefer to use their dominant market position to make it harder for competitors, rather than making it better for everyone, is one of the reasons Microsoft is not good for computing, nor for business.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I've concluded that power management is just insanely tricky. APM/ACPI must be inconsistently implemented on every device, otherwise it could never work as poorly as it does.
ACPI does suck. It's a typical M$, "extensible," "do it in software" nightmare described in 500 pages of spec. It reminds me of nothing more than a winmodem. It will be hard even for careful hardware makers to follow and that's what M$ likes.
APM, on the other hand, worked well for laptops and still does if supported. I close the lid and it suspends. I open the lid and everything comes back. Yes, you have to unplug things still but I actually like that. That way, I can close the lid and have some boring operation still going without fear my cats will dance on the keyboard and screw it up. Other quirks are largely due to the fact that APM too is a M$ written "extensible" standard.
The funny thing about all of this is that free software will give you a working system but M$ never has. I've never seen a windoze user who can make good use of power management, despite all sorts of time wasted hunting down drivers and fiddling. At the same time, I've been enjoying multiple month uptime on my laptops for years. The non free way of making code work together is simply broken.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
> I hate Windows as much as every other Unix geek...
No you don't. You use it.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Big Brother is ever vigilant...he NEVER sleeps...he is watching YOU now...
ALL is reported to Master Bill...
Serve the Computer, the Computer is your friend. - Paranoia RPG
say good morning on so on...
You talk to your computer? Man, you need to get laid, lol.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Sleep is what caffeine is for.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Usually, I direct the pleasentries at my colleagues, but I'm sure the laptop appreciates it as well ;)
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
I have a reasonably normal machine (Athlon XP, nVidia, P-ATA hard drive, VIA BIOS) and have yet to see Kubuntu wake it up correctly. It appears to do something while putting itself to sleep, but on wake-up the HD whirs for a bit and it crashes stone dead. (This happens on other machines, too..) It seems to be the only thing that linux has consistently sucked at, for a long long time, so I suppose it's a pretty hard thing to program. In which case, MS probably deserve a tiny bit of a break too...
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
I'm actually using Vista build 6000 on my laptop and I haven't had any problems booting up after both suspend or hibernation. In fact, it works much better than XP ever did. XP would often 'stall' for several minutes with a black screen after boot up from hibernation. I'm actually very impressed with how well Vista performs on my laptop. Even with only 512 MB of RAM, it's still about as fast as XP. I will say that it seems to use more battery life, especially with Aero.
How many times do you test before calling it truth
I don't know about truth, but according to my gut, it's definitely truthiness.
I have the same problem with my Macbook Pro running OS X 10.4 - where is the frontpage /. article for that?
What a bunch of crap.
I've read the ACPI specs out of curiosity, and it isn't that complex at all: as long as the OS does the pre-sleep prepartions, all it has to do is write a value into a register in order to have the H/W enter sleep mode.
Even though I suspect that Windwos has issue with how it enters sleep/hibernate mode, I would also say that plenty of motherboards have a broken ACPI implementations -- you'd think that some of them had their ACPI source written by a 10 year old. Even Linux has problems on such motherboards, especially when they have vendor specific methods that are utilized by windows-only drivers.
It is obvious why MacOS is handling the sleep/wake cycle so well: it only needs to accommodate Apples hardware. I would be surprised if they failed to get it right.
I prefer the way my PowerBook works. I close the lid and it goes to sleep. Open the lid and it comes back up and works perfectly every single time. I haven't turned the thing off since I bought it last year.
"It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
The Cisco VPN client for Vista (beta), if it is installed, will cause this blue screen condition to occur while resuming from sleep.
I have about 6 machines as well that have or had been running Vista as well, and only the ones with the Cisco client ever had problems resuming from sleep.
agressiv
I've been running Vista RC2 on a Lenovo Thinkpad T60p for a few weeks now and haven't had any problems with sleep or hibernation. It suspends with no problems and resumes fine.
I had this same problem with the final version of Vista Ultimate for a while. It would go into sleep mode just fine but when it woke my network connection was always dead. Trying to disable and re-enable it would result in a blue screen. In the end it was my Cisco VPN client that was mucking it up. The newest beta version of the client works much better, although there are still a few issues (to be expected with beta software).
One thing that I found interesting - when I went to install the production version of the VPN client that my org typically uses, Vista warned that there were compatibility issues with it. I don't expect that they can do the same with beta versions, but it was a useful warning/feature nonetheless.
Why doesn't anybody implement a "hardware only" (or at least firmware only) hibernate? Screw the OS. If the BIOS can save the memory footprint somewhere and restore it and the exact state of the processor, how would the OS know anything had happened?
Take a look at the tags each story citing NeoSmart has gotten: lame, fud, fud, and now this. more fud. I don't know why anyone listens to what they have to say when they have such a clear track record of trolling.
In sleep mode, everything acts like it's off, so there's not a crapload of heat coming out of the processor. The amount of heat that thing spews out is killer on hard drives and batteries. Unless you want your computer to start going on the fritz in 3 years, either hibernate or shut down. If you want your stuff to still be there when you get back, hibernate.
look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
First let me preface with the statement that I'm no Microsoft lover. . . I'm a pragmatist. . . preffer the right tool for the job. . . though if I have to pick a favorite OS, it's FreeBSD, hands down.
I have, however, experienced no such problems with Vista. The only bugs I've encountered with RC2 on this Inspiron 9300 have been with dragging documents into an XP-created Briefcase on a USB stick. If you drag newer versions of an existing file in, they new files never appear and the old ones are erased. Vista-created Briefcases are fine.
-CR
"So is the BSD licence even more 'free' (than GPLv2)? Yes. Unquestionably." --Linus Torvalds (TinyURL.com/2vugzl)
Sleep mode in current Apple laptops combines hibernate and sleep. If computer remains powered (i.e. battery doesn't go out or doesn't get removed), the wake up is instantaneous. It is literally ready to go at the tap of a key. If, however, there's a power loss, the wake up will take a bit longer because wake up will be from hibernate mode. Just to verify this, right after I finished typing the previous sentence I closed the lid of my laptop (C2D MBP), detached the power cord and removed the battery and waited 30 seconds. I have then put the battery back in and started the laptop. It woke up from hibernate and I continued typing. A nice touch - on wake up it shows you a slightly blurred version of the desktop the way it was when computer went to sleep.
So you get the speed of the "regular" sleep with reliability of hibernate. I say - give your money to the competent, vote with your dollar.
but it sounds to me like this is a classic case of "not enough research"
A rather funny comment coming from someone who presumably tested one system and found it to work, so therefore all systems must work.
The article mentions that the author had problems with "deep sleep" on 6 of 8 systems.
So he's obviously not making the claim that hiberate/Deep Sleep is broken on ALL systems, since there were two he tested that worked correctly. 6 out of 8 is a pretty bad track record though, so it's likely that a significant amount of people are going to have problems with this feature. It's not a huge sample either, so maybe he's just unlucky enough to own systems where this feature doesn't work properly. I DO think it's a quite nice "heads up" to know about before before Vista becomes mainstream though.
I guess I can't be terribly surprised that hibernate/sleep is still broken though. It doesn't work properly under Windows 2000 on my circa 2002 desktop computer, but worked just fine on my Circa 1999 laptop.
AccountKiller
Except in Vista it doesn't work and on Mac it does. Oh, and Vista is not available yet. Also, in Vista, it doesn't do hibernate at the time when it goes to sleep. So if you sleep your laptop and remove the battery five minutes later, you're royally fucked without a warning.
My Dell does just as good - If its on AC power, it only ever shuts off the screen. On battery, it sleeps at 1 minute idle, and hibernates after an hour or so, or if the battery gets too low.
Many of the problems with ACPI in PCs are caused by third-party drivers.
I know I have limited experience with Vista at this point, but using Beta 1 and Beta 2, I never had an issue with Suspend or Hibernation. In fact I used it continually. So my quesiton is... how much of this is simply a BIOS issue and how much is really a Vista issue? Now before you respond...
I have 4 computers, all of them worked fine under Vista, however, my personal PC will not suspend under Xp correctly (BSOD or won't wake up at all). My wife's comptuer doesn't hibernate under Xp at all. (Can't boot afterwards have to delete Hib file) But both work perfectly under Vista. The other two machines work fine under both.
It sounds to me like what they fixed under Vista corrected the issues I had with XP but caused other new problems with other computers.
So BIOS vs Software issues? Anyone want to comment... and by comment I don't mean... Linuix figured it out why can't microsoft because that's not a productive discussion, that's just MS bashing. (It may be true.. but it's not productive)
Wow, that sure looks like "typical M$" whatever.
The funny thing about all of this is that free software will give you a working system but M$ never has
Yes, that's funny. Considering this entire article is a troll - a link to a two-bit blog with something negative to say about a Microsoft product so Slashdot can make a few bucks and people like you can come out of the woodwork to share your "M$ Windoze" blabber with us. And sure, "M$" has never given me a "working system" at all, whatever that means in your head.
The AC that posted that "how to advocate free software" thing in reply to you has it right. Please don't "help" us anymore by using these dumb examples of how Microsoft (oh, "M$") is supposed to suck, especially when I've yet to see power management done right in Linux as well. Even Apple doesn't have it 100% down yet. But you seem too blinded by your own hatred (I guess?) to see that. If you're going to "evangelize", this is the wrong time and place to do it.
Why is this news? If there's a minor (and this is really minor) problem with your computer, just figure out a solution. Either leave your computer on or finish everything and turn it off. You people are supposed to be smart and resourceful, figure something out for yourself.
APM/ACPI support has always been a piece of shit. I think it has something to do with all the different hardware vendors not creating to standard/spec., but whatever.
AmigaOS doesn't suck. All that crappy software that needs stupid luxuries like "memory protection" is what sucks. ;-P
http://outcampaign.org/
What, so now a paragraph is true or untrue based on its structure?
http://outcampaign.org/
BSODs, etc are rarely due to the OS. They're nearly always due to the device drivers. This is a problem with MS relying on dozens of companies out there trying to undercut each other. I'm sure that you'll find a 100% Intel system runs Windows better than VIA's bottom of the barrel chipset with a mish mash of sound drivers, network drivers, etc from different companies who are eager to abandon support for that hardware to focus on their latest and greatest.
This can be an advantage for the Linux kernel since if you have the source you can fix it as opposed to Windows where you should just go buy new hardware.
I mean, I'm an uneasy sleeper too ... but at least I don't crash when someone pushes my buttons.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
To save the OS state you can just dump the entire RAM to a dump file and save the program counter and registers there too. The real problem is saving the hardware state of all the peripherals.
If you go to the effort of encapsulating the word power in quotation marks, you _are_ making pun. You are placing an overt stress on the word with draws it's full meaning to attention. If you didn't want it to be a pun you should have stressed the whole "power the future!" as then it would sound like you were quoting microsoft atleast.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa: Africa is the world's second-largest and second most-populous continent, after Asia. At about 30,221,532 km^2 (11,668,545 mi^2) including adjacent islands, it covers 6.0% of the Earth's total surface area, and 20.4% of the total land area.[1] With more than 890,000,000 people (as of 2005) in 61 territories, it accounts for about 14% of the world's human population.
Not all africans are poor, not all africans have to deal with famine, not all africans are at war.
Please read some of the sites mentioned here, for further information on what is being done with your donated PC's.
And to reply to your statement: I don't know what Africa needs the most, but I think we can agree that every little bit helps. (Except for cheap food, that's just killing local economies).
For the perfect anti-Unix, write an OS that thinks it knows what you're doing better than you do and let it be wrong.
'here' should have been a link to http://www.google.com/search?q=africa+computers+do nate
For the perfect anti-Unix, write an OS that thinks it knows what you're doing better than you do and let it be wrong.
That's funny, last time I checked, Linux didn't actaully have the hibernation feature. At least it doesn't install it on desktop installs.
(By the way, just to be clear, hibernation is a feature first brought out with Windows ME, that requires no hardward support. It just dumps the contents of RAM onto your hard drive.)
Windows XP had the same problem... I'm not sure but I think they screwed up the feature with SP2. Firstly, SP2 disabled Hibernation, but you could re-enable by changing a registry entry. However, if your PC had more than 2GB memory it wouldn't work. Only reciently (like a couple of months ago) they released a fix for the bug
It's funny how I've been enjoying multiple month up time on Windows computers too. Sometimes 4 to 6 months at a time, continuously on ... The only times the computer goes off is literally when the power gets disconnected.
So, how do you avoid the monthly mandatory "update" reboot? I can see how you might not bother with patches, given how poorly they work.
How do you monitor your uptime? Has Microsoft included an "uptime" utility yet?
Finally, I envy the reliability of your power company. Mine can't keep things going more than 140 days and usually goes down once every two months on average.
I've read claims like yours, but have never seen a real machine do as you say. For the average user, performance like yours is as removed from reality as a trip to the moon. I doubt Steve Balmer's workstation can keep it up more than 30 days.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Dear God, please say it isn't true. After all the patches and service packs and driver updates, even *XP* still can't hibernate/restore properly more than 80% of the time, I find. If it's worse than XP, then MS should just give up on this tech.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
I went to the site, and got 2 dialogs warning that Mozilla versions 1.3 aren't supported. WTF? Guess Safari isn't good enough... is IE good enough either?
They can use parts of the razor sharp dell cases as machetes to kill people in different tribes, thus reducing the amount of people in the country and creating an increase of food available per capita.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Turn off the Automatic Updates service when it starts bugging you to "please reboot or I'll do it for you".
"How do you monitor your uptime? Has Microsoft included an "uptime" utility yet?"
It's not part of a default install: You can get it off Microsoft's download site here.
"Finally, I envy the reliability of your power company. Mine can't keep things going more than 140 days and usually goes down once every two months on average."
That sucks; I think we've had maybe one blackout every two years or so, and I'm pretty sure they were all local. Then again I do live near a big industrial area and within spitting distance of a 1.3GW nuclear power station. So.. don't you have a UPS?
I've read claims like yours, but have never seen a real machine do as you say.
You've also never used iTunes or an iPod, but still shout off about how shit they are. And you've never had any real experience with Windows XP, by your own admission.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
Now, the original poster seems to be implying that this is an inherent flaw with Vista that affects all machines.
I have been running the beta of Vista for months now, on multiple machines, including laptops, and have yet to see this occur even once. With varying sets of hardware and sofware on the machines. I have not read on any messageboards of this being a widespread issue.
Now, my MacBook Pro, when shipped, had an issue that if I had an ExpressCard in the slot, it would instantly wake up from sleep as soon as it went into sleep mode. This meant that if the lid was closed, it would go to sleep, wake up, go back to sleep, wake up, etc, until either the battery died, or I opened it up. This was fixed with a firmware update. More recently, one of my external peripherals seems to cause a kernel panic on waking up. If i unplug the peripheral first, it wakes up fine though.
This is in contrast to a certain model of Dell laptop from 2000 that my company bought a dozen of that NONE of them would go into sleep mode properly. Dell's official answer? Disable sleep mode. On a laptop. (The symptom was that when you told it to go to sleep, it would turn off the hard drive, monitor, and fans. But it was apparently supplying full power to the processor, causing it to cook itself. We had one of them get so hot while shut in the user's laptop bag that the screen warped, and the machine died. The others didn't have permanent damage.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Uptime is easy. I had an XP computer for the company I'm currently working for. I had turned off autoupdates. I left the company. I came back six months later. The computer was still on and still logged in as me, just the way I left it - all my applications were open where I left them, and a couple of things were still logged in as me (no-one else having my password). People had been using the shares on that computer as they always had, but no-one had powered the monitor back on in that time - the computer stayed in it's little corner, untouched. No viruses, no malware, and running effectively as a light-moderate load fileserver.
You need to get out of the days of Windows 98 where it crashed several times a day. XP is a stable OS.
So, how do you avoid the monthly mandatory "update" reboot? I can see how you might not bother with patches, given how poorly they work.
I typically patch the living crap out of the machine whenever I install the OS in the first place.
Then I follow good practices. Turn off services that I never use. Run the system behind a hardware firewall. Don't install stuff that tends to be buggier than hell. Don't click on stupid stuff while browsing the web, or reading email.
I review each new patch. Sometimes I don't install them. Sometimes you can just get away without a reboot, by restarting or unloading a particular service. Even still you can get by for several months without worrying about patches, if you've got the machine in a great state when you start out.
To, be honest, the same ideas have worked for me for Linux too, given that I start with a superb distro and recompile the kernel right away.
A UPS power supply (battery backup) also helps keep the machine a little more healthy. Hardware seems to fail pretty often in server environments (too Hot), so get redundant and/or high quality hardware if you can afford it.
That's exactly what he said. Open it up and it's ready to go. If your battery goes out when it's sleeping, you resume from hibernate.
Bugs, viruses, people lining up to snag your data, music downloads that go POOF! in the middle of the night...
Just how much more crap will you put up with, before trying something new?
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy
Someone says that Vista doesn't work well for sleep for them and/or their hardware. Someone else replies that Vista works for them. And the people who reply that Vista works for them act angry...as if someone else having a problem with Vista is somehow skin off their noses. Why in the world would someone reply in anger to someone elses problem???
This response, the angry response to someone else's problem, is a sign of moral failure or mental instability. Or its a general lack of humanity. But I don't want to get into that too much here.
What I do want to talk about is how it seems that these "hey, Vista works for me" responses almost look like Microsoft employees responding. Inside Microsoft this is certainly the response you get when someone points out problems. The higher ups do not want to hear about problems unless someone has already solved it.
Also if this isn't MS folks trolling then I would ask people to think about the fact that an OS will respond differently on different hardware. And telling people to upgrade is not a valid response since these people's hardware(and my own) worked fine under XP. So its not possible that you would release a "good" product that wasn't at least as stable as the existing product. If you look carefully at Vista it IS XP under a thin coating of new UI work. There are new features but NONE of them I have tried work on my machine (Groove, Breifcase, sync). But these things did work in Office 2003 and in XP. So you can not by definition say Vista is better than XP.
I think the idea is to get the pissant third-rate military dictators addicted to WoW, then they won't have TIME to oppress their subjects.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
I've been testing Vista Enterprise on my work Latitude D610 laptop for just over a week now. I have entered and successfully recovered from every sleep state. I have not seen a single bluescreen, and after turning Aero off have found the experience to not be terribly slow either. There were only two drivers that did not load from the DVD: Sound and the smartcard reader. I don't use the smartcard reader, but it did download the driver from Microsoft. The sound driver was available from Dell. My Verizon EVDO card (kpc650) works fine as well even though VZAccess does not (I don't need it). Aside from a few minor usability issues that I just have to get used to, I don't find it to be a bad product at all. The only real issues are that I don't like is that the screen buzzes like it did when I loaded a certain driver on it in Linux (fixed it with a different driver revision), and the Contivity VPN client does not work.
I am not advocating Vista or any product here, but I also do not think it is fair to make a blanket statement about any product until you have tested the product on all hardware. Unfortunately, The Fine Article's website is broken, so I can't read about how well they tested or didn't test. My test involved one machine so far, so I can't say definitively whether or not I have the only machine in the world that Vista works on or not, but my guess would be not. Do some testing for yourself to determine the truth before bashing. We're always asking people do that with Linux based on an appropriate use, so let's give Vista a fair shake here as well.
I was going to write a sensible post, but then I read your post history, and realised you where a complete and utter tool. Do people as blinkered as you really exist in real life, or are you just a script of some kind?
I had this problem with the company laptop I used over the summer, running XP. As our product includes a driver component, the computer was prepared for it, generating BSOD crash dumps which I then sent to our driver guys (as I first suspected it was a bug in our product). They ultimately found that it was due to a bug in the NIC driver (RTL was the manufacturer, I think), and told me that they've seen this before in other computers using NICs by the same manufacturer.
You have tried to support your argument with faulty reasoning! Go directly to jail; do not pass Go, do not collect $200!
I'm no Microsoft fan, but people here are making pretty big asses of themselves over here without reason. I've been working with Vista Release Candidates and I've yet to see a serious issue regarding the hibernation mode. On this note, the people who are interested in articles like these probably aren't going to care of how wonderful the hibernation features of Ubuntu 6.10 or SuSE are. But the "Linux will fix all of that" crowd needs to STFU sometimes.
I've hibernated my thinkpad running Vista RC2 numerous times and haven't had any trouble. I suspect it's a hardware driver afterall.
I left Vista RC1 booted overnight and it went to sleep, and I resumed it just fine.
It's no Ubuntu, its the NVidia drivers. The binary NVidia drivers (which most people end up using for one reason or another) do not do hibernation at all. So if you're in X when you hibernate, when you wake up you'll get a black screen, and no keyboard / mouse working.
Vista may have trouble sleeping
or
Vista BSODs on waking are causing me to lose data
or
Vista is terribly broken with completely pitiful support for waking Vista up from a Deep Sleep or hibernation.
or
Death never sleeps.
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Hello!
I see you got nastily pinned down, for being thoughtful, but nonconformist. Slashdot is like an army, critical voices get jailed.
IMHO Misusing of "flamebait" or "troll" modding should be penalised by a severe karma dump to prevent Groupthink.
But it is not.
Although I disagree with you in substance, I will fight for your voice being heard. That's democracy. Slashdotters should value it more...
There were no hints about Windows XP in that post. Have you seen the system requirements for Vista with Aero?