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The World's Longest Tunnel
fusconed writes "Bloomberg reports that the Russian government is proposing to build an underground tunnel between Russia and Alaska for transporting goods, electricity and natural resources. The tunnel would be twice as long as that between the UK and France. The $10 — $12b cost is not something to be overlooked, but Russia claims the benefits would pay it off in 20 years. It would take 10 to 15 years to build, but being an Alaskan, it sounds good to me!"
In Soviet Russia... tunnel digs you!
What about the crust movement? England and France are fairly stable compared to the "ring of fire".
Will that enable truck traffic all the way to say, LA?
Last I heard, the coast was the only way and it didnt go ALL the way for roads. So Russia just gets to trade with Alaska, not the entire North American continent.
Sounds like a good trick for the ruskies to get us to pay for most of it then threaten to take back Alaska. It's not like Putin is a nice soft fuzzy benevolent character or anything....
And beautiful women, natch. (Eastwards.)
you had me at #!
One step closer to the gravity train? Okay, that's probably not actually feasible for a long while if it ever will be feasible, but still, long tunnels are the first step.
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oink oink oink oink is that the smell of PORK? :)
But really, aside from that, is the infrastructure in Alaska and Canada and eastern Russia up there really of the sort that could take advantage of a big project like this? It's all well and good to ship cargo and electricity and such through a tunnel, but without having a way to get it to / take it away from the tunnel, I'd be skeptical of the utility.
And of the line losses. That's a thought. Which is greater- the line losses of electricity going from Russia to here, or the cost to ship coal from an equivalent power plant in Russia and in the United States?
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My thoughts and prayers go out to the civil engineers responsible for maintaining 64 miles of tunnel in an international setting if it is indeed built.
I wonder if anyone will comment on the story this time.
Have they also budgeted for the 1800 miles of road/rail leading up to the tunnel approaches?
From a quick Google Maps search, they have to link Fairbanks on the U.S. side (600 miles off)
and Magadan on the Russian side (1200 miles). The terrain between is a nasty mix of marsh,
mountains, and permafrost too.
Still, it'd be way cool to be able to road-trip to Europe!
>;k
I hope they've got a good emergency plan for when the inevitable disaster happens in the tunnel, such as the recent vehicle crash in a tunnel in Melbourne. Imagine being stuck in a tunnel 30 miles from land, under an ocean, with burning trucks and cars all around. Accidents happen all the time, and it'd be really hard to get to one in that situation.
Funny, I was just thinking of taking a road-trip to Siberia from Panama. Oh, and in Soviet Russia, they dig tunnels to you.
The tunnel builds YOU!
According to Wikipedia, in 1990, when the Channel Tunnel was completed its cost was estimated as 10 billion GBP.
I'm no expert on inflation and exchange rates, but by estimating this tunnel at $10-$12 billion aren't they saying that a tunnel that is twice as long as the Channel Tunnel will actually cost less to build? Is there any reason to believe this will actually be so?
They have Boats for that sort of thing; it'd be a lot more practical.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Looks like it's only about 60 miles with a nice little island halfway in between. It'll be interesting to see if this proposal goes anywhere. Any anticipated economic potential will have to be weighed against the operational costs, however, which will surely entail full-time security checkpoints at both ends and in the middle to thwart any bad guys looking to blow it up. Those costs can't be insignificant.
Their is the Alaska Highway and of course Alaska and British Colmbia have a robust ferry based "marine highway".
It's a trap!!!!!
(damned commies)
They've already moved 27 armies into Kamchatka and surrounding territories, but then they discovered that the world maps that they were working on weren't totally accurate. Now they find out that they need to create an actual line connecting to Alaska to enable their attack. It's pretty brazen of them to ask us for help.
So in 15 years we can attack Kamchatka from Alaska with 3 dice?
The whole idea is silly beyond words. WHY on Earth would you connect two nations, both of which have many viable ports, with a massive tunnel to their least populated and most distant parts?
The link between France and England makes sense. The tunnel spits people out very close to densely populated zones and provides access to the rest of Europe with a few hours (or less) of train rides. The link between Russia and the US would spit people and goods out as far as you can possibly get them from populated zones. The cultural benefits would be almost nil as it makes no sense to fly a few hours from the lower 48 states, land in Alaska, then take a train ride to the middle of nowhere Russia. You might as well just fly the whole way and go somewhere more interesting then frozen wastelands. If you want to ship goods to the US or Russia, you are better off just to load up a boat.
The whole idea is stupid.
Let me guess, Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens thinks this will make the internet go faster?
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
It would take 10 to 15 years to build, but being an Alaskan, it sounds good to me!"
What if that means you have to give up almost half your $1,000 yearly oil royalty check for ten to fifteen years ? Because that's about what it would cost, assuming Alaska pays half and Russia pays half.
Please help metamoderate.
...Alaska is Senator Ted Stevens home state...
I guess this brings a whole new meaning to "a series of tubes"!
Thanks,
Mike
My roomate in college was from alaska. He drove to school every fall. 'nuff said.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Ted "It's not a big truck" Stevens must be ecstatic. Finally, his series of tubes!
Finally Longcat will have a place to sleep.
Sweet - when I visit Alaska one day I'll be able to take the "Bridge to Nowhere" on my way to the "Tunnel to Siberia."
Sure they could just build another bridge instead?
Why would you want to go all the way with a road, of all things? Cars are great for undirected travel in dense environments brimming with potential pickup and dropoff points, which is precisely what travel along the coast from Alaska to California is not. For this sort of thing, rail is far more efficient and convenient; plus, you're not stuck behind the wheel of your Hummer the whole ride down. Should the passing scenery out your panoramic windows in your passenger train car get boring, you can take a day off at a train stop to rent a Vespa or a snowmobile, or just go hiking.
Frankly, the last thing America needs this century is to further perpetuate a backwards transportation policy that has bound us to oil, a marriage that hurts us economically, environmentally, and politically the longer we continue. I'm reassured that Canada has shown better judgment, and I trust those floppy-headed lumberjacks won't be laying asphalt all over the coast anytime soon.
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and just tell them to pull the plug out of the bottom of the sea
then all they need to do is build a road
see its easy, should of been an engineer
The summary says underground tunnel, but it's actually an undersea tunnel and is likely above ground. These types of things typically are. The sections are dropped into the sea and connected together on the sea floor. They are not dug underground.
Didn't the Larouchies propose something like this?
I can't imagine it being cheaper than naval transport.
When I first read this story I thought to myself... No freaking way. One of the greatest strengths of the US Military is its ability to mobilize enormous numbers troops and equipment anywhere in the world rapidly. Basically, we create an air-highway to our destination and begin military operations. However, with this tunnel in place, it would allow any country to overcome this feat of military infrastructure by sending trainloads of cars, tanks, and troops over just by paying the toll. Basically, this actually makes the world more like the giant RISK board where you can move from Russia to the US in one turn. Then I got to thinking some more. When you consider the amount of money that places like Asia, Russia, and Eastern Europe spend to put stuff on a ship and send it over to North America, the economic impact of this would be staggering. It would certainly make Russia more economically viable just throug the tariffs alone. I guess the internal debate comes down to one of history. Which side has the most to gain and is the easiest to defend? The positive economic aspect of the project or the negative (in my opinion) military aspect of the project....
Sounds like a good trick for the ruskies to get us to pay for most of it then threaten to take back Alaska. Wow, you said that and my Risk instincts told me to start building up troops in Alaska...
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
Um, because you'll get to go to Russia? Have you been there? Or you'll get to sample all those great Russian products? I got to shop at the Tzum in Sofia even after the fall - it was the size of Macy's with as much merchandise as a 7-11. And that was just Bulgaria, propserous compared to Russia. Knock yerself out.
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What about the tunnel they keep proposing between Morocco and Spain .. err. I mean "Occupied al-Andalus"?
n d-morrroco-agree-to-buid-underwater-train-tunnel/
http://news.netscape.com/story/2007/03/07/spain-a
I can only assume you think other people are that stupid because you are that stupid. If you'd read TFA you'd have seen that they have in fact considered transport links on the North American continent. It doesn't mention roads, only rail, but trucks are a pretty crappy way to move stuff thousands of miles anyway.
I'm surprised they are considering a highway in the tunnel itself. Putting vehicles on trains is faster and safer and ventilating a 65km tunnel full of vehicles would be a huge task, even compared to the scale of the project.
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To answer you question, all that you need to do is to look at a map of the Pacific Ring of Fire.
9 /Pacific_Ring_of_Fire.png
Here's one, in case you had trouble finding one for yourself: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0
The Bering Strait is clearly well north of the Ring of Fire faultlines. Thus the tectonic impact will be minimal.
Furthermore, you don't throw together a $12 billion proposal and not take into account such things. Anything you can think of regarding this project has likely been thought of already by the planners. If crustal movement was to have a serious impact, we would not be hearing about this proposal, because it would have been scrapped long ago.
Will that enable truck traffic all the way to say, LA?
... lots of stuff that's good to ship in bulk via pipelines or via heavy rail.
I don't think that you'd really want to bother with a road in the tunnel. Like the Chunnel, you'd probably use trains. They're more efficient, and you don't have to worry about exhaust gases building up in the tunnel (they're electric), plus they just make a lot more sense for moving bulk goods over long distances.
The Russians already have a well-developed rail infrastructure -- that's if they haven't torn it up for scrap metal lately -- and the Trans-Siberia Railway is all double-track and electrified (at no small expense, but hey, when you have a lot of peasants or comrades to employ, who cares?), so it would be dumb to transfer it all to trucks.
You can't run the same cars from Russia to the U.S., unfortunately they're like the only place in the world that doesn't use Standard Gauge tracks and rolling stock (they use 5-foot gauge instead of the standard 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches; oddly the latter actually works out more nicely in cm than the former), but if you did everything in shipping containers it wouldn't be that hard to build a yard somewhere and just shift them across to new cars. Probably do it on the Russian side since you'd want to save the space in the tunnels and go with the narrower gauge.
Russia, particularly Siberia, has a lot of natural resources. Timber, coal, mineral ores, and probably oil
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for a very worthwhile project. And people have a problem with that?? Well, that's nice...
What?
To conect the middle of nowhere to a place with absolutely nothing using a very expensive tunnel.
Coming soon, Real Russian permafrost, fresh to your door.
Whether this project makes sense aside, that's what we're blowing in one month in Iraq. Think about all the good infrastructure projects we could build with the money we're wasting on a civil war. Ok, stepping off the political soapbox. Next?
I travelled the Seikan Tunnel this past October. (Longer than the Chunnel.) Pretty disappointing. I rushed to get a window seat, and all I saw was a the inside of a long concrete tube. They should've made it out of plexiglass (or transparent aluminum) resting right on the seafloor.
If this is built with a rail line, please run a passenger train now and then... perhaps once or twice a week, connecting to the Trans-Siberian. It will be awesome to know that one day it may be possible to get anywhere in the world by land transportation only. London and Singapore are connected by passenger rail, so why not Alaska, and then the rest of the US and Canada?
indeed, someone would have to dump money into a project like this.
speaking as an alaskan i have no problem with that. unfortunately
the wish for a tunnel or bridge is as old as the hills. the cost
& technical problems make the political & security issues seem puny
in comparison.
still...what a long strange trip that would be.
i am snow. fear me.
Now I can hitchhike to Moscow with a trucker named Bubba who wants to dance with me!
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
Am I the only one who thought "Boy, the Chineese must LOVE this idea"?
Wow!
So after that's built we'll be able to drive to almost anywhere in the world.
Can anyone say "Road Trip to England"?
Given Alaska's location and relatively low power demands, you would think a solar panel array in the north of the state would be a lot more beneficial. It's not like they don't have the extra space...
"The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
I'm sure it sounds good to your senior US Senator as well.
There may well be value in a gas/oil pipeline from Siberia, but someone should check the numbers very carefully. Other than gas and oil, trade with Russia just isn't going to be that important. Even if non-energy trade with Russia does grow, it will still probably be cheaper to send cargo ships to Oakland or Seattle.
Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
Actually, since we're talking about all that infrastructure and electricity, why not use stabilized welded track and run a bullet train? And perhaps keep the tunnel in a partial vacuum (ok, working on that line WOULD suck) whenever possible. It wouldn't take many hectopascals of pressure reduction to amount to a fair amount of drag reduction, would it? The trains could use venturi perhaps to keep the inside pressure right (it works for aircraft, right?) With dedicated passage for trains you could evac it right down to the economical limit and lower the risk of fire as well. Auto and truck drivers, however, would need to pop their ears a bit ;P
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3317149.stm
From wikipedia:
In March, 2006, Briton Karl Bushby and French American adventurer Dimitri Kieffer crossed the strait on foot, walking across a frozen 90 km (56 mile) section in 15 days. (BBC)
But, I guess after the ice caps melt, this will no longer be possible.
Guess I'll have to get my ass up there and see Alaska before one of the world's last unspoilt places becomes an industrial throughway.
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OK, so we get a tunnel to somewhere on the west coast of Alaska.... Then what? To the best of my recollection, there are no rail lines connecting Alaska with the Lower 48. So you're probably talking about a rail line paralleling the Alaska highway (built during WWII, when cost was no object...) to Prince Rupert, BC, and then probably to Edmonton, AB. So the people who would make out like bandits on this would be the Canadian railroads, all that bridge traffic to the United States.
If you're not familiar with the geography of Western Canada, it's worth taking a peek at your favorite mapping site... Make sure you look at something like Hybrid view on Google Maps, so you get a sense of the topography....
Unless there's already a rail connection from the proposed Alaskan terminal through Canada, I don't see this as being particularly economically feasible. Certainly the US should insist that Canada kick in a contribution.
But if this does come about, I hope they'll run passenger trains along that route, it would be a spectacular train ride!
dave (occasional railfan)
p.s. Speaking of Canada, how about the prospects for a tunnel from the Lower Mainland to Vancouver Island? My guess is that the island residents will never go for it, all that traffic would ruin their spectacular corner of the world...
fusconed wrote:
"being an Alaskan, it sounds good to me!"
Well of course it does. Alaska has long received excessive amounts of Federal spending. This would just be yet another large government handout that would have almost no benefits.
Wait, are you saying there's a big red bulldog digging in our back yard?
seriously, how awesome would it be to stick the family in the SUV in florida and wind up in beijing? or berlin?
"oh look a sign... next gas station, 1200 km"
"daddy i got to goes to the bathroom"
"not now honey, your pee will freeze to your dick or the polar bears might get you"
"mommy, jessica is drooling on me!"
"tell jessica we'll leave her at genghis khan's firecracker shack when we get to ulan bator if she doesn't knock it off"
"honey, all this mcdonald's drive thru serves is skinned uncooked dog"
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Strangely enough, for some of us the world does not revolve around shopping.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
It's not like Putin is a nice soft fuzzy benevolent character or anything....
Putin will be long gone by the time/if this ever gets completed.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Sounds like a good trick for the ruskies to get us to pay for most of it then threaten to take back Alaska. Wow, you said that and my Risk instincts told me to start building up troops in Alaska...
ha-ha! While you weren't looking I just took Greenland!
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Arne Saknussemm Excavation Company has been consulted
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
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i think we could easily afford to finance this solo if we were to.. say.. pull back our armies, which are currently sucking up money occupying half the planet?
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This is really cute, but why the hell would they want to peer with Alaska anyway ? I mean no offense to Alaskans, but of all the places to build a tunnel to, it seems rather arbitrary and I doubt the EU would play into these Russian tactics. It seems they just want to buy cheap American resources and resell them in Europe, at European prices. Things like electricity, petrol, and god-knows what else. Reminds me of the one buddy who always has some scam figured out, but needs to sell the idea to a partner to make it work. "Hey Bill, let's sell weed. I just need you to front the money to buy seeds." or "Hey Bill, let's cheat at poker... I'll deal you winning hands and we'll split the winnings. I just need you to take the beating when we get caught."
This time it's "Hey America, let's sell your crap over here in Europe and we'll split the profits (unevenly). Russia just needs to you exhaust your already-limited resources for their benefit."
Maybe I'm being rude, but I just don't think Russia is ready for any grand plans yet. Get that Putin tyrant out of there first, clean up the friggin country and then we'll talk.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Calling Ted Stevens! Your pork has arrived!
If you put the right wires down there, this "tube" could allow more room for those "packages" of "data" in the "internets".
-GiH
ha ha, republicans are stupid troglodites.. laff
I've been on a cruise ship that transited the Panama Canal. Did it make economic sense to fly to Costa Rica, get on the ship, cruise around the Caribbean for a few days, disembark at Ft. Lauderdale, and fly home? No, but I don't regret it, it was a great vacation. Being able to marvel at the canal makes it a tourist destination for its own sake.
Similarly, I would love to take a rail trip through this tunnel into Russia, then fly home.
If you want to ship goods to the US or Russia, you are better off just to load up a boat.
You're neglecting that there are costs involved with shipping the stuff by truck or rail to the seaport, transferring the goods from the truck or railcar onto the ship, then when the ship arrives, transferring the goods from the ship back onto truck or railcar. I don't know exactly how large those costs are, but they certainly make the tunnel more viable. Imagine a rail tanker full of Stolichnaya leaving Moscow and arriving in Boston two weeks later, totally free of stevedores' handling fees. Mmmm, vodka...
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Just edit the wikipedia entry. Then things will be much more reasonable!
The demand for these kinds of infrastructure projects indicates the operation of a strong trading economy. The fact that Russia wants to build this is a signal that we are behind the curve and our manufacturing and export trade economy is in the crapper.
I'm sure it's feasible to build a flexible railcar that can ride standard-gauge tracks, then upon exiting the tunnel westbound, expand its wheelbase to match the wider Russian tracks.
The tunnel would make for some enticing possibilities. Imagine a rail tanker full of Stolichnaya leaving Moscow and arriving in Boston two weeks later, totally free of stevedores' handling fees. Mmmm, vodka...
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Ground troops, you say? Through a tunnel between Asia and North America?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061387/
*sigh* ...hippie
I can't believe nobody has said this, but:
The reason why we should build the tunnel instead of just improving the relevant ports, and why we should in some way allow vehicle travel (on train or under their own power) is to make our world a better place by making it smaller. If you look at history as transportation has improved and communication also countries have become larger and larger, and cultures have unified bringing large areas of peace within their boundaries. The expansion of the Roman Empire was supported and limited by its ability to communicate; its extensive road system enabled and limited its size. Before Rome, Italy was divided and unpeaceful, even Germany, France, and England were all divided within themselves at some point, with divided cultures and regional/war boundaries. Look at Europe now, it will be one country someday. Look at the whole world. We will eventually all become one people. Parts of all of our cultures will be lost, look at how many languages have become dead in the last one hundred years. Yes it scares me, but the more I look at the end effect of cultures uniting and subsequently the political bodies that govern becoming bigger the more I want it to happen. The end run is what we should look at, and the end run is world peace, permanently.
"Where have all the good people gone?" - Jack Johnson
Trucks are a crappy way to move stuff thousands of miles away, but I know a number of people that make quite good salaries off the fact that they drive trucks cross-country. Crappy: yes. Necessary: yes!
"The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
Linda Larouche was proposing to do this about 12 years ago. It is sad that only now the powers that be are coming up with the same ideas that were laughed at derided by the 'inteligensia' a decade ago. Everyone knows that Linda Larough is a crack pot. That doesn't mean you can't use his ideas after he has gotten old, and is no longer considered to be a threat. -Know this you are being lied to. How do I post a super comment?
Not if you went to school in the Yukon. Really, if you don't tell us were the hell he was driving to, it doesn't tell us much, now does it?
That means I won't need to swim across the atlantic to get to moscow?
An electric train would be far superior. Firstly, the train can carry cars/trucks on it. Secondly, the tracks itself can conduct electricity :o (although, I do not know how efficiently..) Thirdly, the train bears no "speed limits" and can travel 90mph non stop whereas in a car you'll be doing 45? How fast can you SAFELY travel in a tunnel in a vehicle (as to not go through a wall).
Also, about the tectonic plates, definitely something to look into. Anyone remember the falling ceilings in the tunnel on the east coast, where was that, Brooklyn?
Support the source, Open Source! An entire site developed with OSS
If the tunnel will indeed serve as a rail link, how does Russia plan on dealing with the fact that their trains use a different gauge than trains in the US do? From what I understand, the break-of-gauge is a huge pain for Russian trains to enter China, and requires cargo to either be unloaded, or for the bogies to be changed...
On the other hand, if the annual energy savings from this project is anything even remotely close to what's projected, I'm amazed that it hasn't been built already. The cost savings figures quoted by the Russians have the project breaking even in less than a year!
(Not to mention the trade benefits from building such a tunnel and the symbol of unity the tunnel would serve as... Russia's going through some pretty hard times as it is.)
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Guess Pravda doesn't cover 'Global Warming' and the Russians were expecting the Bering Land Bridge and pave from there? That's pretty remote landscape for both sides. A great deal of money is spent just to get goods up there to keep the residents in the 21st century. I was thinking that linking the 2 sides for truck/rail trade seemed crazy at first glance...
Oh, the *FA* part of *RTFA*.
"as part of a $65 billion project to supply the U.S. with oil, natural gas and electricity from Siberia."
Yeah, it's tunnel. But it'll be all pipes. Or tubes. Something like that. Russia will keep them full unless politics is involved.
until ( $win ) { &cheat }
How do you send troops to the United States from Russia? Plane? No. Anti-Air. Boat? No, Large Navy. Tunnel? Sure, why not. They build a tunnel to Alaska, where Cananda is, and since the U.S has no percieved threat from Cananda, the security will be minimal as opposed to coastal defenses. Instead of building their trains or sending trucks, we'll see tanks and soldiers come out from underneath that tunnel, take back Alaska for Russia and then set up a forward base there. Afterward, they'll begin their push downward and rally Canadians for their cause. :)
127.0.0.1
What does Russia offer Alaska in trade / commerce?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Sounds like another no-bid Halliburton contract to me.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Someone tagged this tunneltonowhere.
Is that from the point of view of Russians or Alaskans?
Technoli
The Pacific Ocean is slow getting smaller but overtime it adds up, wouldn't it affect the tunnel?
Ah.. mentioned this to a friend of mine and was commenting about being able to drive to the tip of South America all the way to London after they completed this. He said that he had four words for me. "Are we there yet?" Then said something about "Hmm.. I guess this justifies the larger hard drive on the iPod or going ahead and signing up for satellite radio"
They'd have to come more than halfway across Alaska to actually connect to a road that connects with the lower 48 though. That's at least 500 miles, through mountainous country.
Part of the reason we as americans still remain free is because there are many separate nations, too many for the RIAA/MPAA and other industry groups to gain a stranglehold on their legislatures.
additionally, the more people unify under one flag, the less proportional representation they will receive.
even the current level of unification is too great. people have different tastes and cultures, and separate sovereign states provide the means for them to preserve those customs they find most important.
the only type of unification i'd even think about would be a loose commonwealth (common military resources, but absolutely nothing else)
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Don't even take a minute to think about the loads on railroad wheels etc. (hint think pulling them up grades around a radius.)
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Have you ever been through the Chunnel? Not to discourage your plans for a vacation to Alaska but you can have the same effect by sitting in a bus, parked inside a very small garage, with no windows. Normally I would agree that the journey's as significant as arriving at the destination, but inside the Chunnel you hardly realise you're even moving, and even if you do exit the bus to look out one of the few windows there's nothing to see but your own reflection in the black glass.
They might want to ask Alaskans if *WE* want the tunnel. I live in Alaska and have not heard of this great idea. Another road to nowhere. Yeah.
I hate slashdot
Nah, I'm no hippie. Fuck the environment; I just want livable streets, a shorter commute, and to breathe clean air instead of carcinogenic particulate matter. It just so happens that some of the means to achieve these goals align with what the hippies want, too.
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
That's because at the Russia/China gauge change, they likely aren't using intermodal containers. Yes, it would still introduce some inefficiency unloading one train just to reload onto another, but these containers are the key to making the differences in gauge work at least somewhat economically. Essentially everything coming from Asia is stuffed into these containers, loaded onto a ship, transported to one of the western ports, thrown on a train to go somewhere to be regionally loaded onto a truck, anyway.
While rail might prove to be faster than open sea shipping, I would think that it would be questionable whether or not it would be more economically advantageous than by ship...even for goods to/from Russia.
There is a road that goes all way if that is your question 3200 miles from Anchorage to San francisco (I made it in 55 hours once when I was young). For your other idea, Russia couldn't take over Afghanistan and we have way more guns and loads of Military personel and hardware, so the joke will be on them.
I hate slashdot
If you can run an operating system in a virtual machine I don't see why you can't do the same with a train.
Lyndon H. LaRouche that we all know and love? Ah, to dream...
What?
The Discovery channel show 'Extreme engineering' did an episode about building a bridge across the Bering strait.
b eringstrait/interactive/interactive.html
It seemed fairly plausible, and quite well researched.
Whether a tunnel is more practical than a bridge is another matter I guess.
Personally I wouldnt expect so since bridges, if built well, have been proven to last hundreds of years until they're bombed to prevent troop movements. I'm of the understanding that some bridges in Europe destroyed during WWII had stood since Roman times. Are tunnels as durable?
If you'd like to check out the episode, here's their site;
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/engineering/
This idea has been promoted extensively by the Unification Church (aka "Moonies," followers of Sun Myung Moon). They've been taking collections for their version of this project for many years...
Science is about what is, not what we believe or hope. -- Dr. Lonnie Thompson, glaciologist, Ohio State University
Maybe they could just get the US Govt to hold off on a month of War in Iraq and donate to Russia instead?
I mean we only spend $120billion a year on the war.. $12b/mo thats like.. $3800/second
Obviously the Russians will secure a perimeter around the openining with paratroops and move the main invasion force through the tunnel.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2
The current credible rumour is that the two crew members that were on the bridge had been "balling", which was what lead to their "loss of situational awareness".
You're using her as bait, Master!
So your logic is that building a tunnel between the US and Russia will lead to world peace? The reality is this: they said that it would take 10-15 years to build and another 20 years until it pays off economically. (Let's just ignore the fact that both of those types of prediction are almost always underestimates.) Just going with what they said, it will probably be 35 years until the tunnel makes economical sense, that being one of the ultimate goals of the project. Oil and natural gas, however, are limited resources. Most estimates say that we have only 20-50 years left of petrolium left on the planet, and the figure is bound to be less than that when you only count Russia. This tunnel would be in vain. If we spent that increadible sum of $12 billion on alternative fuels (research, etc.), we could create something sustainible, pragmatically and economically, not to mention environmentally. As for world peace, if that's what the administration (the people who would fund this project) wanted, there are many things they would have done differently since 2001.
are these the tubes Ted Stevens was talking about?
This could be a very interesting project. I work for a company that uses a lot of factories in Asia. Ships spend about 2 weeks on the water getting to the US.
I don't know much about trains, but if a train could sustain 80 MPH all day long, then it can go about 2000 miles in a day. The corridor they mention is 3700 miles (about 2 days), and I'm not sure what it would take to get from, say, a factory in Viet Nam, to a port in say, Seattle, but it very well could be faster than a ship... and maybe cheaper.
And considering the seaports in the US are in such a badly deteriorated condition, it might be an interesting way to help diversify our transportation network. Though, I understand the rail system is pretty bad too...
Reminds me of conversations I had with a mate in the navy:
"So, how's life on the boat?"
"It's a ship dammit - a SHIP!!"
I just picture little carts moving into the tunnel with a constant *mario going through tube* noise. That's quite a warp pipe
Indoctrinate : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments Educate : to develop mentally, morally, or aestheti
Moreover its a tunnel from nowhere to nowhere. OK, I'll be honest, from one piece of ice to another.
That's right, they'd spend 12 billion dollars on a tunnel, but a couple of tens of million to upgrade the interstate system out there would be totally out of the question!
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
So, does that mean that one day getting driving directions from New York to Paris will be more than just an April Fools' joke?
I'll grant you it's not exactly the most efficient way. I don't have high confidence in the state of Siberian highways (where by "state" I include "existence").
Wow... last you heard must have been pre-WWII. Where have you been?
They built this highway during the war to transport troops to Alaska to keep the Japanese from invading it. Since then the highway mostly carries elderly Americans in their very large recreational vehicles, but the railway carries a certain amount of useful freight.
You're right, it doesn't go along the coast though. Lots of mountains there.
"But it'll be all pipes. Or tubes." Tubes full of internets i hope! More internets for us!
It'll be much easier to get our weed over to Russia now!
Well, except for the US' paranoid biometric scans...
Ok, I take it back.
From the perspective of trade and natural resources management, this project makes a lot of sense.
However, this assumes that the world is still going to be here and in the current form we are used to experiencing it. There could be some serious problems with ice-ages and comet disasters in the short term. But I guess you can't stop dreaming until the dream is over. . .
-FL
NYC is on the East side of the Hudson River (except for Staten Island, but that's really Jersey). As is Long Island and New England. The Hudson runs all the way up to near Canada. So that hugely populous part of the country (over 30M people) is divided from the rest of the states. The closest railroad bridge to NYC is over 100 miles North of the City. We've got a couple of tunnels and a couple of bridges for trucks, though our ports have been reduced to a token amount of transfer.
So we've been trying to build the Cross-Harbor Rail Tunnel from Jersey City to Brooklyn. It's supposed to cost only $2-3B, which is only <5% the NYC annual budget.
But Mayor Bloomberg, like any NYC mayor, is more interested in real estate developers than in the overall economy of NYC, so he opposes it. But it's probably the best tunnel project being considered in the US. It would further integrate the US with itself, making us more productive, not further subsidize the Alaskan oil corporations and make us more dependent on the Russian mafia oil industry.
--
make install -not war
So, how long had you been mating? Or... er, you mean like a 1st mate or a boatswain's mate, a rank? Um... or did you mean like an English person's friend (which I guess doesn't rule out the 1st meaning)... what the hell did you mean?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
There are lots of different rail standards. Most of Africa and India use 3' 6" for example. The width is chosen depending on the load carrying capacity required to make the line economical and longer lines with infrequent trains usually translates into narrower gauges. There are many multi-gauge cars and locos in use to bridge the interconnects too. This is a problem that was solved 150 years ago already.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-04-14-tunn el_N.htm
Summary: If the channel tunnel went bankrupt, how can you spend $13 billion on a Mediterranian tunnel and expect it to pay for itself?
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
Believe it or not, I've not only heard of it but actually ridden on it. Although damn cool, and definitely a fun trip if you're ever in Skagway, since it doesn't really connect to any other railroads, it's not exactly what I was thinking of as part of the "rail network" in the U.S. (And the line currently doesn't go all the way to Whitehorse, only to Carcoss, due to some sort of bureaucratic issue with the Canadians...you'd think the people in Whitehorse would be dying for the tourism, and when I was there back in '01 or '02 I heard some of the workers saying that they were ready to run trains there whenever, but apparently there's a lot of red tape involved. I think it became a political football after 9/11 with the border-security issues.) But for anyone interested in railroads the trip is a must-do, if only to see the old steel cantilever bridge along the route (WP says it's over "Dead Horse Gulch" and if you saw it you'd believe it).
For simple point-to-point transportation, you can certainly pick any gauge railroad (or any other form of transportation) that you please. There are functioning narrow-gauge railroads in certain niches both in the Americas and in certain parts of Eastern Europe (I saw a program on the BBC not too long ago about some honest-to-god steam narrow-gauge railways in Eastern Europe; they're more tourist attractions now, but used to be functioning parts of the timber industry), but they don't really help you when you're trying to import goods in a form that can be easily dispersed with a minimum of extra effort, if they're not the regional/national standard.
I think the best solution to the rail problem is to use containerized cargo, and then use the currently-available, COTS equipment [1] for moving cargo containers around to move it from wide-gauge rolling stock to standard gauge, and bring it into the U.S. that way.
[1] The sort of cranes that exist in every major container port in the world, for lifting and moving containers off of ships and onto trucks/trains. Example
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Brilliant reference. I have to see this.
Truck transportation solves a shortcoming in rail transportation, namely the problem of moving cargo along routes where rail doesn't run. If you put a rail through a tunnel, then driving a truck through the tunnel is a solution in search of a problem.
...unlike certain bridges proposed for Alaska
http://www.arctic.net/~snnr/tunnel/
.... *cough*
This idea has been afloat (so to speak) for decades.
It's a pretty good idea, as long as you can keep Al Qaeda out of it. I guess you just keep anyone who looks, you know, Arab or Persian, or generally suspicious out.
A rail connection from Alaska to the lower 48 would be "interesting" and more of a challenge than the tunnel itself because of the amount of permafrost bog in the way. I've driven the Alaska Highway and Cassiar three times and can tell you all about permafrost and mosquitoes. However, a land route to Nome, a road anyway, has been planned for some time, and will probably be built one of these days. Currently the only way to reach Nome overland is via snow machine (or dogsled) during the winter. Actually there are a number of Alaskan villages of up to a thousand people that can't be reached overland during the summer.
There is a well-used railway link from Anchorage to Fairbanks. Otherwise, the rail infrastructure in Alaska, YT, and northern BC, is mostly nonexistent. I think around 1000 miles of rail would have to be built from Fairbanks to Dease Lake BC.
The transportation infrastructure in Siberia is terrible and a rail link, to anywhere, would be immensely useful. The best time of year to travel there is the winter, when the roads are frozen and smooth, and ice roads can be built over water - just as in parts of Alaska and northern Canada. In warmer weather, the roads are mud. Meanwhile, northeast Asia has immense natural resources just waiting.
I'd like to see it built in my lifetime.
How much did ISS cost? I hope this tunnel is more successful than the last US-Russian effort. Otherwise, the US will be maintaining it while the Russians will have the only vehicles that can travel through it. And they will be using them to sell sightseeing tours through the tunnel to rich American millionaires.
OMG, Russia is near Alaska! I'm so proud to be an American.
Build a bridge out of piecrete.
...my two cents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piecrete
Its great stuff. Its cheap. And the geographic location is perfect for it.
(Hell, I've been thinking about Piecrete ever since I was a kid and I just
want someone to do SOMETHING with it)
Sure beats spending $20 Billion anyway.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
It would be really fun to drive from Key West to the UK. That would have to go to the top of my list of things to do before I die if this tunnel ever gets built.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Gauge_Axles
-Palal
As Alaskan, I vote against this project. Keep the corruption over in Russia, and not here. If they get the corruption issue settled, give us a call.
(Of course I suspect this is an evil plot to take back Alaska, since we will not renig on the deal. Russia has been bitter since they sold it. THE SALE IS FINAL! Nuff said.)
Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?
First of all the tunnel between SU and Alaska might be world's longest _traffic_ tunnel, but too sad to say it is _not_ the world's longest tunnel. Newspaperpersons and other media people tend to simplify things and redefine meanings.
W ater_Tunnel]. //arl
Currently the world's longens tunnel is naturally Päijännetunneli feeding water in Finland to Helsinki area [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4ij%C3%A4nne_
Trains can go a lot faster than that. Even British trains can manage 125mph.
It doesn't matter. The other guy took Australia. We're boned.
Seriously, have you ever seen a Risk game where the first guy to get a solid hold on Australia didn't win?
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
( Insert Dr. Strangelove Joke Here )
"Mr President, we must not allow..... A Bering Tunnel Gap!"
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Plase remember that this is the sama Russia, that planned:
1. Vast mirror in space to light up Siberia.
2. Turning one of Siberia's big rivers flowing to south thus watering dry south Siberia.
And yet some other megalomanic plans that never get real.
I've got to object to that. We British can easily build trains which can manage much more than 125mph.
The problem is we just can't get planning permission to build straight tracks. Locals object (because of noise), hippies object (to cutting down trees), environmentalists object (on principal) and so forth. By the time you incorporate the costs of fighting through all the planning, public enquiries, protestors, etc, building a high speed train link anywhere in the UK is un-economic.
Chunnel trains travel at high speed through France because they built a new, straight, track for them - when they get to the UK they have to slow to about 50% because they're running on old, curvy, tracks.
In the UK it's a real problem in all sorts of ways not just for trains. For example, everybody with half a brain knows that Heathrow Airport must have another runway. It's the only even nearly reasonable solution to current air traffic problems but the locals, hippies, enviros, etc, are fighting tooth and nail, it will take years to force it through despite the fact it's an absolute imperative and needs to be done yesterday.
Passenger trains certainly can, building a new track now you should be looking for at least 200Mph + but I'm not sure how fast the sort of massive goods trains you'd want on this sort of route could go.
Which, of course, is a problem we brought upon ourselves by our boneheaded decision to build out roads instead of rails in the first place!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
One thing he is definitely not: stupid
ha-ha! While you weren't looking I just took Greenland!
Hey you! Greenland is under Danish jurisdiction, you insensitive clod!
I change my sig often.
are you sure? russian dictators have a habit of ruling untill they die
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/021246
I'm sure we'll hear it again a few times, too.
It's a bargain. Lyndon B Johnston thought nothing of agreeing to spend $29Bn ($135 Bn at today's prices) on the Apollo mission when it was observed to him that the US gained a complete global network of ground stations and reconnaisance satellites plus strategic superiority over the USSR into the bargain.
Historically all of the great engineer projects that produced infrastructure have had fantastic benefit for society, from the Roman roads, the trans-ocean phone cables and the vast network of communications technology.
LBJ is of course no longer with is nor is the USSR and the strategic advantage turned out to have had a lot less effect than Ronald Reagan's bank busting SDI. However, the benefits of the Apollo mission and the creation of satellite launching conglomerates financed the cost -effective marvellous multi-media internet connected society that we have today. The physical connection between the UK and Europe is one of the best things ever to happen on this side of the Atlanic and the possibility of a connection between Russia and the Americas can only bring benefits. So that's all the easy stuff out of the way. brNow... could some one turn their attention to Africa
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
A) It's not twice as long as the chunnel. What TFA says is that the "link" will be twice the length of "the underwater section" of the tunnel -- not the whole thing. The link will come up for air on two intermediate islands, so it'll be underground for significantly shorter distances, giving increased fault tolerances (on surfacing, the drills' trajectories can be more accurately corrected which means less cumulative "drift").
B) Advances in technology mean it's easier to keep a vehicle going in the right direction now than then, hence cheaper.
C) Different geology. There were some complicated layers under the channel that had to be negotiated -- the North American plate may just be easier to cut.
Just because someone makes a large salary off of it doesn't mean that it is necessary.
Anyway, the advantages to trucks over rail is that they're more flexible.
How incredably usefull. I don't know why I didn't think of this. I'm writing a novel at the moment and was playing about with methods of the characters getting from russia to canada without going by plane. Boats are too slow. As this novel is set about 20 years in the future (+- about 5 years) I can use this tunnel. Thanx Soviets!
Take a look at this document from the government of British Columbia. It is a fairly extensive article discussing the various considerations for building fixed links (tunnels, bridges, etc.) across large bodies of water. In this case it talks specifically about a link between the British Columbia mainland (at Vancouver) and Vancouver Island, but the considerations it mentions are quite valid most places people want to create these kinds of links. A good read considering the OP.
A few points from the article on why a fixed link across the Straight of Georgia is not likely to happen any time soon:I think someone who wrote that article did get the wind conditions wrong. I think it is fair to say that they can get wind speeds up to 115 kph or higher during a storm, as we saw this last winter. However, that is not an average wind speed, as I can attest to from trips I have made across the straight myself. :-) Wind speeds are no more different normally than say the English Channel.
For a tunnel, they would need to go down more than 815 metres (2,675 feet) to stay in stable rock (that is when it didn't shake from an earthquake or tremor). There is some speculation that if a major earthquake happened that huge underwater landslides from the sand banks on the south side of Vancouver (around where the south arm of the Frazer River exits into the straight) could cause a tsunami.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
I think you are referring to the Road of Bones. The Road of Tears is an album by the Battlefield Band..
I'm pointing out that you don't have to be a hippie to regret the social costs of automobile use over more "sustainable" modes of transportation. You miserable little shitstain.
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
What is overlooked in most cases is not whether a particular spot on the Earth has oil, but whether it has political stability, infrastructural and investment capability of putting that natural resource to some use. For example, South America has plenty of oil capability - but hostile forces limit that oil flow out of the countries such as Venezuela. USA would love to see more imports from that part of the world (examine US govt press releases for "diversification" of energy. Secondly, Iraq and Iran never regained their pre-war (1980s) oil production levels.
Russia has no investment capital to boost their production levels.
Controversially, oil has started wars before (duh, but wait for strength of argument). Imperial Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because their country did not have natural oil resources required to campaign in World War 2. Their source of oil at the time would had to have been Dutch East Indies (check my facts please). I believe at the time DEI was one of the largest oil potentials in the region. Japanese takeover of that resource would have upset America; therefore, to secure an energy source, Japanese sources preemptively attacked the U.S. Pacific fleet and thus secured some time to operate uninterrupted.
Russian oil production level is still lower than from times of the USSR.
Saudi Arabia faced a double front in 1990s- internal dissent and possible invasion by Iraq. Reluctantly they allowed US troops to be stationed on "the island", at cost of putting the Saud family in an uneasy situation. The US troops were supposed to leave the peninsula once fighting stopped but strategically that would be stupid without eliminating a military threat - so they didn't, infuriating the Arab sentiment. The threat, in this case, was securing Strait of Hormuz to ensure steady oil shipments. Therefore, Saudi citizens fumed for years until Jihad was brought to American soil.
There are untapped, proven oil reserves in N-W Russia. Problem has ALWAYS been transporting oil.
To ensure oil flow, we had to get our military out of Saudi Arabia -- but still retain military ground in the region. So here is a quadruple whammy - America was willing to commit blood to: (1) Eliminate the Iraqi threat to Saudi Arabia, (2) Eliminate Iraqi threat to Oil Transport (3) Eliminate political threat to the Saud family and (4) Lift economic sanctions from Iraq to bring oil production levels to pre-1980s war levels.
Did you get that? Lift economic sanctions. To bring oil production levels up.
Therefore, as stupid as it sounds, the "world's longest tunnel" linking the two continents just might do the trick. Drilling in the Arctic region of Russia has always been an expensive and highly technical challenge because the seas freeze - and you cannot pump oil year-round. Russia is a stable country and therefore would easily bring foreign investments to the effort. Read the official U.S. energy policy for any clarification of intentions. "Diversification" of energy resources is a high priority.
Guys appearing on a CCTV.
+ *Explosion*
= 1 battalion of dead russian soldiers
To Moscow I presume, or it wouldn't be very relevant...
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
just out of curiosity, has the eurotunnel ever managed to finnaly break even. this looks to me like one of the huge "national projects" very popular right now in the russian government to channel large amounts of money obtained from exporting oil and natural gas and pick some of it off on the way.
Since when do we get printer friendly article links in the summary. I was expecting to click through half a dozen pages. Kudos.
Is that why the UK has developped this plane ?
Because the jets could not take off on curvy runways ? : )
It may be longer, but this project has nothing on The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel.
Actually the Hudson north of Albany is not much more than a creek.
I didn't think it made it all the way to Canada.
There are quite a few rail tunnels under the Hudson between NJ and Manhattan.
there are a significant# of people who load their cars in lourdes VA and take the train to Florida, and back, each year.. how freaking hard is it to imagine a train that goes from seattle to moscow, and has capacity for personal vehichles, and cargo containers, and runs as traffic demands.....
one vehichle, moving the cargo, means driving can be accomplished in shifts....
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
The rail tunnels between NJ and Manhattan are little commuter rail, not freight. That are already occupied by the large commuter traffic.
The Hudson North of Albany is substantially more than a creek, and a few miles north of its turn near Glens Falls the obstruction is the even wider Lake George and then Lake Champlain. Practically all the way to Canada. Even where the Hudson is no wider than a large river (not the mighty torrent past NYC), it's still an obstacle preventing freight rail that's not crossed by a railroad bridge except right around Albany, about 150mi North of NYC.
We're talking about a major tunnel to carry freight between the mainland and NYC. Currently that's handled by thousands of trucks going over overwhelmed bridges that also carry private cars. Are you suggesting that the Hudson River is not an obstacle?
--
make install -not war
There used to be a land bridge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_land_bridge. Why not fill in with rock? It's mostly 50m deep? Though I'm not sure if I am reading the chart right. I'm just curious, I am sure this has been considered and dismissed.
Oil and Natural Gas can more safely be transported via pipeline, so this should prove a boon to environmental safety in the Strait.
Beyond that, the concept of this tunnel appeals to the mad scientist in me.
Bearded Dragon
Maybe you should look at how far the proposed site is from the Aleutians. As far as distances go, it's similiar to people in St. Louis worrying about an earthquake in San Francisco.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Roads are probably cheaper to build, definitely cheaper to maintain (since you can neglect them for years and get potholes instead of derailments), and make it possible for people to choose when they want to go from a point A of their choice to a point B of their choice. It's really not boneheaded.
They aren't imperial any more.
"The term imperial should not be applied to English units that were outlawed in Weights and Measures Act of 1824 or earlier, or which had fallen out of use by that time, nor to post-imperial inventions such as the slug or poundal."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
They will simply fly everything to one end of the tunnel, load it up on rail cars and go through the tunnel on rail. Then, at the other side, load it back up on the air transport for the rest of the trip.
Actually, you're a dumbass.
Why do you morons always insist on saying "Actually..." followed by a point that IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE ORIGINAL POST.
Look at the map asshole. This tunnel is FAR away from the ring of fire.
"Actually, there is are earthquakes in Alaska."
And there is are volcanoes in Hawaii. Neither of those facts matter for this project.
You're a fucking retard.
Hell, that's cheaper than Boston's Big Dig tunnel and that's only a few miles long.
Seriously, though. Why would anyone balk at even 20b for a tunnel connecting two continents?
I am the inventor of the hilarious refrigerator alarm.
FYI: Many people care far more about their environment than the environment.
EX: I might not care about endangered species, but I do care about the ability to breathe. Many types of pollution kill people animals but other environmental issues like the destruction of wetland habitat don't affect people all that much.
Hippies tend to care about keeping the environment in a natural fission but everyone should care about the tens of thousands of deaths from pollution every year.
I feel compelled to point out the comparatively minor economic benefits of this tunnel when it's compared to the Sydney-Los Angeles Bridge.
[clever sig]
the surveyors put the entrances/exits too close to the shoreline and the mean sea level rise from global climate change will create the world's most expensive salt-water aqueduct.
...remnants of the Cold War spy/defector transit tunnel the US built (for many $Billions) back in the 50s. It had narrow guage rails (18") and electric power, and was "upgraded" during the Reagan era, becoming a means for delivery of TLBMs (tunnel-launched ballistic missiles) utilizing a special version of the dense-pack doctrine known as cl*st*r-*u*k. The only part still operational is the communications-intercept relay, whereby CIA obtains from the NSA conversations captured from Russians who know they're bugged saying things a particular former NSC member has requested to justify policies whose other rationales have long since been debunked. Ironically, the potential for public disclosure of the old tunnel and its current use will ultimately "derail" plans for a new trans-Bering tunnel, because General Lockhallichtel Corporation staffs and equips the state-of-the-art Alaskan-side listening station, and the new tunnel would be operated instead by the energy concern Bam-Exom, the respective Boards of Directors' makeup being slightly different.
30+ years to break even? Does this factor in the effects of global warming? If the sea levels rise how long would the tunnel have to be extended? What would the impact be to the entire transportation corridor?
If you take global warming seriously wouldn't you need to consider these things and discuss how you intended to address them?
Maybe the project's just a fraud to funnel resources into big construction companies... maybe people willing to put billion at risk don't actually take global warming seriously?
It's an artificial distinction IMHO. The question is where you draw the line, but it's all interconnected, unless by "their environment" you mean just their surroundings, which is not what Tickletaint was discussing.
Oh, and the "hippie" stereotyping isn't useful here; it never was. "Hippies" are just as likely to want to practice free love and smoke pot all day, and conversely not all people concerned about "the" environment are "hippies".
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
What does Ted Stevens think of this proposed series of tubes?
I'm pretty sure that air pressure has no contribution to maintaining the structural integrity of a tunnel. The tunnel would have to be sealed at each end! It's all about the strength of the surrounding rock.
The worthless light-rail system they put up in denver cost $14B. And, that is a *much* smaller project. I think this tunnel would cost closer to $100B.
Lets also not forget that Iraq oil exports has YET to reach pre-invasion levels. I think that says a lot.
I am TOTALLY turning in a set of cards next turn and getting a ton more armies!!
I recall reading a number of years ago that much of the oil produced in Alaska actually goes to other Pacific Rim countries.
yeah but switching russia to standard would also simplify connections with china and europe as well.
... mix in a little vodka and a few generals who want to make sure their military budgets stay secure, and I could see them getting a little paranoid.
Very true. However, I wonder if the Russians would see that as a benefit or a hazard. There are a lot of people in China, and a lot of empty land and resources in Siberia
Depending on who you ask, the reason the Russians are on broad gauge in the first place was to discourage the Germans. Didn't really do them a lot of good (although it did cause the Germans a certain amount of grief, I've read) but it might be hard to get them away from it.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Lets be clear, none of those conditions would eliminate the possibility of a crossing. Not even putting the bridge right across the fault as we have numerous bridges that cross faults, including the San Andreas fault which is IIRC the most active fault in the world. The problem isn't the engineering, it's the cost. Why would you spend 10-50 billion dollars when a 10 minute ferry ride provides the same service with minimal delay? That's the whole reason the earmark Bridges in Alaska have been criticized so heavily, they replace a 5 minute ferry ride with a 300 million dollar bridge. Part of Transportation planning is realizing when making the improvement just isn't worth the cost, no matter how convenient or nice it would be.
I was reading the spec and the part that says must support columns of tanks at least three wide seem kind of fishy.
a man, a plan, a canal, panama
Agreed. In the case of the British Columbia ferries it is about a 1.5 hour ferry ride at a cost for one car and driver of about $50.00 CDN. From that link I provided, they estimate that the toll in order to pay for a tunnel could run as high as $800.00 CDN. People either could not afford to go there or would not want to pay for a $1,600 CDN round trip to the island.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
My first thaught on reading this was "Wow! A New York to London road tour is now a definate possibility!" A friend suggested that there would inevitably be a world wide gumball rally. You would have to put your car on a train briefly for the Bearing straight and English Channel tunnels. If this becomes reality, I think I know what I want to do when I retire. Now they just need to build a real pan-American highway to link North and South America.
Till them commies come a knockin' at cher door... Then Y'alls better watch out. Next thing you know they will be a shoppin' at the Piggly Wiggly and then they be a tellin' all their friends about America. Next thing you know they will be a free country. Then what will we do with no Commies to worry about? Opps my son's hollerin' at me to get off his puter again.... -Otis
The guy who posted a direct link to the raw SVG source is hard-core retarded. Here's the link he was supposed to post:
n .svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plates_tect2_e
Because access to the Asia continent is worth a potential 7 bonus armies per turn.
The wiki article explains a build in protection against any errors BUT also mentions that these weren't actually needed because the measurements were acurate enough not to need them. It does NOT mention what the measurements were.
Or put another way, the "how they did it" that the article described wasn't actually used, how they managed to be so accurate that they weren't needed goes unexplained.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
THERE ARE NO ROADS TO NOME!
I very much doubt he was driving from Alaska to Moscow to go to school. After all, the tunnel doesn't exist yet. The presumption should be that he was driving from Alaska to some place in the lower 48 states, as the thread of conversation was about whether or not truck delivered goods that were to come through such a tunnel would be able to get to the rest of the US easily or not. Not so long ago the only overland route from the Alaska to the rest of the US (through Canada) was gravel and had a number of steep grades, and wouldn't be such a great route for overland truck traffic. I'm not sure what it's current condition is.
I'm disappointed... a whole page browsing at +3, and no "In soviet russia, road tunnels you!" to be found. Is /. losing its edge?
Actually, I usually took South America. Granted, it's probably not as easily defencable as Australia since it has 2 borders instead of one, but it give you options for breaking out from your fortress for attacks and with two heavily defended zones on the same landmass, it is generally tougher for an opponent to take the entire landmass in one turn, giving you a chance to cash in your Risk cards and mount a second chance comeback/suicide run to expel them from South America. With Australia, once they pass your one border country it's pretty much a rout for the rest of the continent. The other advantage (IMO) of South America, is that it's much easier to move up in to North America and take it than it is to move up and conquer all of Asia. Not to mention, after you finish conquering North America, you once again have a fortress with only a few border countries on which to mass your defenses.
If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.
Not to mention the dangers of leaves on the line and the wrong type of snow.
That will be one mother of a road trip! I guess you could drive from the south tip of Chile to the horn of Africa. I wonder how long that would take...
They sell all the dirt to Dubai and draft a 99 year lease agreement for China! Then China can get diamonds and tar sands from Canada! There is only one impedence. The Canadian Arctic navy!
Is it me or is the UK just plain going down the tubes thanks to stupidity like this? The US isn't much better.
It's no wonder China will be the world's foremost power in 50 years. If they want to do something important, they just do it. Yeah, it sucks to live there if the government doesn't like you, but it seems like a model of efficiency.
I've been eagerly waiting for a Russia - Alaska (or Russia - Canada) link for a long time... it'll create unbelievable economic prosperity in eastern russia, where it's desperately needed... and it'll cut down on transportation costs and pollution for all the crap we ship from china, russia, india, etc. Once it's in place and the high-speed rail link is set up, it'll be more efficient to send all the goods through that link, instead of large, wasteful, polluting, cargo ships. It'll add a pipeline for access to eastern oilfields. And it'll add electrical links for when they make use of their tidal or wind power.
There are challenges, for sure... changing permafrost, moving plates, and a helluva lot of water in the way... but this could be one of the most important projects of this century. I really hope it avoids the arrows of Big Shipping and Alaska Oil, and gets off the ground (or under it, as the case may be).
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
Psst: Bogie-exchange is a solved problem. The different loading gauges aren't though, as others have already said.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
... the North Slope pipeline. :P
This sounds like an even more impressive project than the current world record holder -- a real feat of engineering. ;)