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Microsoft Claims a Billion Windows Installs by End of 2008

eldavojohn writes "Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer claimed yesterday that there will be a billion machines running Windows within a year. 'The install base of Windows computers this coming 12 months will reach 1 billion. If you stop and just think about that, parse that for a second, by the end of our fiscal year '08, there will be more PCs running Windows in the world than there are automobiles, which is at least to me kind of a mind-numbing concept.'"

365 comments

  1. Damn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    The world will then have 1 billion unhappy computer users.

    1. Re:Damn... by Lumpy · · Score: 0, Troll

      Worse than that. Cince windows Installs are the only place where zombie machines are infected so that the spam and ddos attacks and other net problems come from, that simply means that the net will become more and more useless.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  2. Quality vs Quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They are the McDonald's of software

    1. Re:Quality vs Quantity by Onos · · Score: 2, Informative

      And, in the applications department, there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#, SQL Server 2005, and certainly not even Office 2000, let alone newer versions of Office. Sure, OpenOffice word processing is ok, but the spreadsheet is crap, and the "Access" clone is terrible. Um Visual Studio 2005 is not a good application. Go take a look at any of the Java based open source IDEs - eclipse/netbeans. VS2005 is missing key features like on the fly compiling. (I had to install a paid plug-in to get that in VS). As for C# I believe you can find Java which is now open source, which works on ANY platform (well almost). C# generally beats Java in local apps while Java beats the crap out of c# server side. SQL Server 2005? Derby and MySQL come to mind as open source. Office is true, the Visio equivalent in OO gave me headaches, but the math part of the word processor is much better then Office. As for access never have used it and never will, as I do not find it to be really a good solution for anything.
    2. Re:Quality vs Quantity by eebra82 · · Score: 1

      So according to your claims, Apple is Taco Bell with white walls?

    3. Re:Quality vs Quantity by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      what about the hundreds of times i've had to re-install windows on a pc whose hardware was working fine?

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    4. Re:Quality vs Quantity by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      It depends on which version of VS you buy. The Team versions have quite a lot of nice features. On the fly compiling is not a key feature and its usefulness is in doubt. If you really want, try Vb.net, as it does have on the fly compiling.

      Java has its own problems; "well almost" doesn't cut it for multiplatform development. C# performs great server side. Derby and MySql don't even hold a candle to Sql Server 2005. Does MySql even have transactions yet? Sql Server 2005 includes .Net integration, comes with Reporting Services, Notification Services, Integration Services and Analysis services. Are there even frameworks comparable to those in the OSS world?

    5. Re:Quality vs Quantity by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      And on the fly compiling is terrible in VB.Net if you have really large projects. I wonder if the Java IDEs are faster. I've used them, but never on a large project. I have a PIV 3.0 GHz, and it pauses for about 5 seconds every time I change something at the class level. Wnen the project gets too big, VS.Net becomes unusable.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Quality vs Quantity by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      VS2005 is missing key features like on the fly compiling.

      Visual studio has had that since VS2003 and it works really well most of the time (sometimes it decides it can't compile something silly and forces a full recompile, but it works OK).

      I've never seen an opensource editor that could do it.. eclipse certainly couldn't last time I tried a few months ago (it didn't even have an integrated debugger which would defeat the point anyway).

    7. Re:Quality vs Quantity by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Java IDEs or VS aside, I'd think that if you're project takes 10 minutes to compile, your project is too big and needs to be seperated out. You'd gain other benefits besides better compile time.

      A quick look in \windows\system32 shows the largest application to be the spyware removal tool, and that's large likely because its a single file (defintions included). The other large .dlls are resources for localization. The largets code dll seems to be an nvidia driver, weighing in a 5 MB. The MS dlls are much smaller.

    8. Re:Quality vs Quantity by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      The project (solution actually) only takes about 45 seconds to compile. It's not a monster behemoth. However, the background compiler in VS.Net is so slow (I'm talking vs.net 2003 here), that it's unusable for a project of any significant size.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    9. Re:Quality vs Quantity by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

      Are we so sure the 1 billion count is accurate? Not entirely Microsoft's doing, but I've installed Windows about 7 times on my P4. ... Oh, this software didn't uninstall but how can I fix that? I'll just reinstall Windows! First experience with spyware ... reinstall Windows! Also, back in the day when I had a 166 and a lot of adventurousness, I installed Windows 4 times in a multiboot setup basically to have Windows 95 and NT. Computers got cheaper and virtual machines - no more multiboot, but come to think of it, I installed Windows 3 times on virtual machines. The installation counter runneth over.

      10^9 OEM installs is a substantial critical mass. I started using Windows when it was 3.1 and I could barely do anything before a crash requiring a reboot - good thing the reboots were not as dragging as they are on Vista. You would think: Dual core vs. 486. Windows should reboot in 5 seconds? All the same, people have been provided with just what they liked to keep using Windows, and although I worked with Unix workstations so much that Windows seemed really stupid at first, Windows 95 was a big turnaround in comparison. The price/performance feeling was always good.

      Many new computers costing only $400-$500 have Vista. I doubt people would buy Vista separately the way they switched from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. I wonder if a future version of Windows will make people want to switch from Vista--doesn't say much for Vista, but in Microsoft's shoes, how else do you make people buy a new version of a practically nondepreciating product?

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    10. Re:Quality vs Quantity by the-stringbean · · Score: 1

      I use the latest version of Eclipse (Europa aka 3.3) at work with fairly large projects on similar hardware. With on the fly compilation running there is minimal slowdown. The only times that there is real slowdown is when I do a large refactoring on a project.

      The speed of on the fly compilation in Eclipse does owe a lot to the built in incremental compiler which is blisteringly fast (for a compiler).

  3. Mind-numbing by Slider451 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Indeed.

    --
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    1. Re:Mind-numbing by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      Billion?

      I match your billion, and raise you one gazillion bagillion... and one old laptop running Ubuntu... abandoned where it lay... alongside a keg of beer and a stash of afghan gold.

    2. Re:Mind-numbing by Cerberus911 · · Score: 1

      It kind of makes sense.

      I had to sell my car to buy Vista.

    3. Re:Mind-numbing by ToriaUru · · Score: 1

      and sad, and disturbing. Somebody should do a graphical representation, or pictorial representation of just how many computers that is, like the one I saw earlier today to explain just what $850 billion dollars is really like. http://www.crunchweb.net/87billion/ explains it well.

      --
      Toria
    4. Re:Mind-numbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why is this "mind-numbing"? I own 1 working car and 4 working computers (not counting work computers and servers). How many students have computers and no car? I would have thought computers would have surpasses cars a while ago.

  4. Something fishy? by kraemate · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this possible? Do that many people even have access to a computer?

    1. Re:Something fishy? by NuSuey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i guess they count the illegal copies too .. *smile*

    2. Re:Something fishy? by aleph+taw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      some people have more than 1 computer

    3. Re:Something fishy? by bitchell · · Score: 1

      Easily, don't forget a lot of computer users have more than one device that they use.

    4. Re:Something fishy? by megamerican · · Score: 1

      1 billion computers running Windows does NOT mean 1 billion people using Windows. I personally use 3 Windows computers on an almost daily basis (work, laptop, desktop). Think of how many computer labs there are just in the United States. There has to be a few 100 million people with access to multiple computers each day. Not to mention the many initiatives to give underprivelaged people around the world cheap laptops.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    5. Re:Something fishy? by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      1- In developping countries, many people don't own a car either.

      2- In large non-US towns, many people who could afford a car prefer not to.

      3- There are also work machines (personnaly, I own 2 PC (one for gaming, the other (older) one for multimedia) and work with 3 (my dev PC, a test system and the reference generation system)).

    6. Re:Something fishy? by arth1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Also note that he said "running". I highly doubt that claim. :-)

      Of course, he could have meant "running" as in "with scissors".

    7. Re:Something fishy? by arth1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      True, some people have more than one PC. But some people also run other operating systems than Windows, even if the PC came with Windows. And quite a few people have Windows licenses for machines that no longer work, no longer are used, or which have been thrown away.

      Does Ballmer count licenses to get a high number, or conduct polls to get a true number?
      What do you think? :-)

    8. Re:Something fishy? by Yetihehe · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does Ballmer count licenses to get a high number, or conduct polls to get a true number?
      What do you think? :-)
      I think Ballmer counts licenses to get high.
      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    9. Re:Something fishy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got no car; but I have one desktop and one notebook computer..... how is this possible?

    10. Re:Something fishy? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      Not that this will explain it, but it helps: In manufacturing environments computers are quickly replacing electrical panels as the operator interface for machines.

      Where an equipment builder would once have used giant metal panel full of buttons and toggle switches and analog meters as the means to run his product, he now plugs in a computer with an HMI/SCADA package. And these computers are usually running Windows. In the US Rockwell Automation has a good chunk of the market, and RS Views is Windows only. Wonderware, Siemens, Citect, Intellution, all of the big names are Windows only. Some of them even offer various partnership programs that cut license fees for Windows licenses, MSSQL in particular.

      I was working in this industry when this kind of thing started taking off and I still do from time to time. One of the biggest problems in the early days was the poor stability of Windows and I'd hoped that Linux (or Mac even) could make some headway. That problem has largely been fixed and the Window of opportunity has gotten a lot smaller.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    11. Re:Something fishy? by aleph+taw · · Score: 1

      >I think Ballmer counts licenses to get high. I'd agree. He just counted sold licences.

    12. Re:Something fishy? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I have two licenses for XP (one home, one pro), one for NT 4, one for 2K, two for 98 (one came with VirtualPC for Mac, no idea where the other came from) and one for 3.11. I wonder how many of these Microsoft counts. The only one I have installed is Windows XP Pro on my ThinkPad, on a small partition which I use for the occasional old game. 90% of the time the machine is booted into FreeBSD, so I should probably count as 0.1 Windows install, but I suspect Microsoft will count me as at least 4.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:Something fishy? by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 1

      They are counting the Windows 95 PC's in the landfills...

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    14. Re:Something fishy? by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      Well here's the fun part. There's going to be *only* 1 billion personal computer's by 2008. Balmer is just making an assumption that none of them will be non windows machines (Admittedly, windows does have 88%, but that's still only going to be 880 million machines with windows. And only about 660 million machines where windows has been payed for.*

      *I believe the figure is 1/4th of Windows machines use pirated copies of windows. It's possible that Microsoft counts all non windows machines as pirated copies though. My figure may also be horribly out of date.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    15. Re:Something fishy? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "How is this possible? Do that many people even have access to a computer?"

      I doubt it's a 1:1 correlation. Me personally, I have a desktop, a laptop, and a computer at work. If I wanted to get fanatical about counting machines, I could bring up the render-farm where I work.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    16. Re:Something fishy? by seandiggity · · Score: 1

      Right, I've got 5 (soon to be 6) running in a one bedroom apartment. But, I can gladly say, none of them add to the Windows count :)

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    17. Re:Something fishy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had win95, win98, and win xp. I think they're counting all three of these for me. Interestingly, the box has XP and Mandriva, and I don't even use Windows unless I want to play a Windows game, which is seldom these days.

      And if they are counting DOS as "windows" as well, I had 3.1 and 6.2 as well.

      -mcgrew

    18. Re:Something fishy? by vprasad · · Score: 1

      Semantics, but there's a difference if they use the specific word "installs" vs. "product sold" vs. "activations"... hmm...

    19. Re:Something fishy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notice, it says "installs", not "systems". Between one PC at work at 2 at home I've probably racked up more than 100 installs trying to keep it running properly.

    20. Re:Something fishy? by Locutus · · Score: 1

      There's probably a few million copies going unused by Linux users and let's not forget the 20-30 million or so copies built into IBM OS/2 in the 90s.

      But that is really knit-picking and who the hell cares, if Microsoft is going to make a PR statement like "1 billion sold", we can pick it apart.

      BTW, doesn't this, "over 1 billion sold" sound familiar? That's rigth, Microsoft Windows is "The McDonalds of Operating Systems".

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    21. Re:Something fishy? by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      I wonder if Microsoft is counting ATM's and other devices (even cars) that run some form of Windows. I wouldn't put it past any public relations or marketing group to use a sufficiently fuzzy definition of "PC" to make the numbers higher.

    22. Re:Something fishy? by udippel · · Score: 1

      I've got 5 (soon to be 6) running in a one bedroom apartment. But, I can gladly say, none of them add to the Windows count :)

      How can you be so sure ?
      My guess is that Ballmer counts the desktop/mobile CPUs sold by Intel and AMD. Altogether. Everyone knows that around 95% of the computers run Windows. That is around 5.7 PCs in your case, which is by all means of rounding 6. You own 6 PCs running Windows. Congratulations ! Go to Redmond and pick up a property at Illinois Avenue and go to jail ... .

    23. Re:Something fishy? by seandiggity · · Score: 1

      Let the comparisons begin:

      If Microsoft sold fast food...

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    24. Re:Something fishy? by seandiggity · · Score: 1

      Point taken :) I guess taking those Windows stickers off of the cases doesn't help...

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    25. Re:Something fishy? by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

      You used one, but you (or someone else) have paid for seven.

      I can't think how that hurts Microsoft.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    26. Re:Something fishy? by Locutus · · Score: 1

      If Microsoft sold fast food, they'd still be quite wealthy. What, with all those customers barfing up the McMicrosft product and then turning right around and purchasing more. And every 6 months or so, a McMicrosoft executive would put out PR statements claiming the next new product would be the best McMicrosoft product yet. Reality would show it would still come up as often, just for different reasons and again, customers turned around and got back in line for more servings of the same.

      McMicrosoft, making the world throw up bits and bytes day in and day out while paying billions for the pleasure. ;-/

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    27. Re:Something fishy? by westlake · · Score: 1
      How is this possible? Do that many people even have access to a computer?

      Yes.

      In 2005, China alone had 110,000 Internet Cafes. Windows is used on an estimated 90% of China's 120 million PCs. How Microsoft Conquered China [July 17, 2007]

    28. Re:Something fishy? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You used one, but you (or someone else) have paid for seven. Not really. NT4 was given to me for turning up to some promotional thing when it was launched. 2K I bought the student license for. XP Home license came with my ThinkPad, which I bought second-hand. XP Pro was another freebie from Microsoft (they do like giving stuff away). Windows 3.11 came with my old 386 laptop, again bought second hand. VirtualPC, once again, I bought second hand when I was writing a book on Linux so I could use the save-state feature to undo breakages (second hand with Windows was cheaper than new without). The other 98 license I think I rescued from a machine someone else was throwing away.

      The only license I have actually paid for was 2K, and that was a student discount. All of the others I've accumulated as second-hand purchases or been given by Microsoft. NT4 I was grateful for, because it was my primary OS for about five years. The others were ones that other people were including with second hand stuff, and it was cheaper to buy from them than to find one without Windows.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  5. vm's by misfit815 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yeah, he's probably right... if you include all the vm's we run to sandbox stuff...

    J

    --
    Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
  6. How many zeroes is that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    American billion or rest-of-the-world billion?

    1. Re:How many zeroes is that? by F-3582 · · Score: 2, Informative

      American billion, I suppose == Rest-of-the-world-milliard. Anything else would REALLY be mind-numbing. Imagine two hundred Windows installs per earth inhabitant...

    2. Re:How many zeroes is that? by Luke+Dawson · · Score: 5, Funny

      A Microsoft billion. They use a similar system to calculate the amount of time remaining when installing a .msi.

    3. Re:How many zeroes is that? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      And probably similar to the Internet seconds in the good old Netscape, longest seconds I ever saw.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    4. Re:How many zeroes is that? by vigmeister · · Score: 1

      Shhh! Slashdot is unaware of the long system :)

      In all honesty, although milliards make more sense to me that the short system, you need to switch over since most of the world is...

      Cheers!

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    5. Re:How many zeroes is that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Give it up. When I was at primary school in England in the mid-70's, the definition of a billion as 10^12 was already obsolete.

      When the British government announces that they've spend a billion on this or squandered a billion on that, everybody knows they mean 10^9. It doesn't occur to anybody younger than eighty that they might mean 10^12.

      You might have had a point in 1940. Now you're just being an arse. Hang on, is that you dad?

    6. Re:How many zeroes is that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Must be the rest of the non-english-speaking world.

      All the Brits I've asked say a Billion is 1,000,000,000.

      But then the last Limey I quizzed couldn't tell me the correct color of Dennis the Menace's hair in old Blighty, so clearly he was an imposter.

    7. Re:How many zeroes is that? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Although the people who still think that we're using the old meaning of "billion" would also think the world's population is over six million million ;)

      (I'm in the UK, and even though the media has long switched over to the US definition, it amazes me how many people still seem to think that a billion in the UK is "one million million" - given how often a "billion" is mentioned in various news items, it must distort their world view somewhat...)

    8. Re:How many zeroes is that? by Auz · · Score: 1

      The UK switched from long scale (1 billion = 1,000,000,000,000) to short scale (1 billion = 1,000,000,000) in 1974. Not that I recall my primary school lessons at the time focusing much on the government's budget mind you.

      --
      =DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER ERROR: REINSTALL UNIVERSE AND REBOOT=
    9. Re:How many zeroes is that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IOW, most people there have adapted the american system despite it not being official and you're amazed that there are still many who are unaware of it being now the one true system?

    10. Re:How many zeroes is that? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Well there's no "official" billion or "one true system". Yes, I'm amazed that many people don't even know how big a number is, when it is commonly used. And in particular, they know that there are two meanings of "billion", but insist on believing that 10^12 is still the "English" billion.

    11. Re:How many zeroes is that? by diskis · · Score: 1

      Not really. I'm sure that I'm way past two hundred re-installs :)

  7. I suspect the figures by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does that include reinstalls?

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:I suspect the figures by dattaway · · Score: 1

      and does it include every CPU and GPU core, toaster, and cell phone?

    2. Re:I suspect the figures by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      And the PC sold with XP but running with a Linux or BSD?

    3. Re:I suspect the figures by Multiplet_Higgs · · Score: 1

      You got there before me. Based on my experience this should lower the figures by a factor of about five.

    4. Re:I suspect the figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's got to be far less than a single percent of computers sold.

    5. Re:I suspect the figures by SleptThroughClass · · Score: 1
      "Does that include reinstalls?"

      Of course. That's why they didn't mention it is a billion installations on only a million omputers.

    6. Re:I suspect the figures by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Does that include reinstalls?

      That was word for word what I was thinking when I saw this article.
      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    7. Re:I suspect the figures by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 1

      Probably this as well...

      --

      Shift happens. Fire it up.
    8. Re:I suspect the figures by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      Spine-tingling and scentilatting (sic), isn't it?

      But, Linux-based phones and PDAs will probably be the REAL news, not zombified, uninspired, non-revolutionary tired old OS called windoze. (Mod me flaimbait if you want, but licensing and code access will drive which OS ends up ruling the market.)

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  8. The main question by baudilus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are they counting pirated copies?

  9. WarezOv Industries Announces Shared Hosting Initia by Saint+Aardvark · · Score: 5, Funny

    ST. PETERSBURG - WarezOv Industries announced today a new initiative in partnership with Microsoft that promises to put shared web hosting on every desktop.

    "With Microsoft's help, we have brought web hosting services to nearly one billion PCS across the Internet," announced WarezOv CEO dRO0m@t. "Windows allows us the opportunity to bring value-add to the customer."

    WarezOv's suite of administration tools allows easy management of all aspects of web hosting, including DNS, mail services and -- most important -- failover. "By tapping into Window's remote API calls, WarezOv's tools can scale web hosting to nearly any degree, and make it easy for the hoster as well," said Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. "This -- and their tool's ease of install -- is what Windows is all about."

    Free Software Foundation president and founder Richard M. Stallman was unavailable for comment. "He's talking to Google about building something similar for GNU/Linux," said a source close to Stallman.

  10. Disclaimer by Luke+Dawson · · Score: 2, Funny

    No chairs were harmed in the making of this press release.

  11. Ob by edittard · · Score: 3, Funny

    there will be more PCs running Windows in the world than there are automobiles
    To do: Insert joke about crashes.
    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    1. Re:Ob by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With a billion installs, I wonder how many PCs are displaying a BSOD at any given moment in time. Perhaps a million or so?

    2. Re:Ob by slittle · · Score: 1

      About as many (relatively) showing kernel panics and whatever Macs get, probably.

      The last machine of mine to crash was one of the Linux boxes (120+ days uptime.. all gone). If you treat Windows like as you would Linux (ie. set it up, then leave it alone) they'll run just fine indefinitely. Treat Linux as you would a Windows desktop and it'll die rather more frequently than you're used to (I'm looking at you, video drivers).

      E:\>uptime \\coco
      \\coco has been up for: 162 day(s), 11 hour(s), 47 minute(s), 21 second(s)

      --
      Opportunity knocks. Karma hunts you down.
  12. All at one time? by slashname3 · · Score: 1

    A billion computers running Windows at one time? How many are in the process of rebooting at any one time?

    Does that count as running? :)

    Or are they counting the number of copies of Windows they have sold? In that case the actual number of systems running windows today is going to be much less.

    Someone needs show their work on these numbers...

  13. How do they count that? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

    Do they just assume that every computer that's sold in one piece will have some form of Windows installed, legal or warezed?

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  14. rest-of-the-world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's 1,000,000,000,000! (We'll need all those computers to consume some of that new-dangled IPv6 address space...)

  15. And once they hit 1 billion... by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 1

    ...all Hell breaks loose... The world as we know it will cease to exist... Resistance is futile...

    --
    The game.
  16. Fuzzy Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many of those installs are _really_ running?

    Yeah, I know TFA says _running_, but I've personally over-written dozens of Windows installs with stuff like FreeBSD.

    How many of those installs are due to the Third R of Windows. I've had to do a few of those too.

  17. But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by ceeam · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think that the average household has more Unix systems running for them than Windows. For example - I know for sure that my DVD player and my ADSL modem have Linux running in them. My TV, phones, etc - frankly no idea. Maybe some Unix too, maybe something else. But I heard that this thing runs them most: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_Project

    Yeah, desktop is still important but with things like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS_Eee_PC gaining momentum I hope Windows will be further sliding into irrelevancy.

    1. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 2

      That's why I work in embedded real time/driver development: I had not a single day of unemployment in 8 years and worked for a large variety of manufacturers, plus, the job is usualy rather easy once you made the initial effort of knowing your system.

    2. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      Yes, if we widen what we count as a device, I bet Windows is irrelevant. I only wish we could train users to realize this.

      Microsoft can count Windows installs on desktops, virtual machines, PDAs, xbox (and 360) consoles, Sega Dreamcast, smart phones, cash registers and ATM machines, and coffee tables. I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

      Linux is used on countless embedded devices, PS3 systems, desktops and servers.

      They you get into BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X systems, iPhones, Apple TVs, iPods, palm and other PDAs not running Windows.

      Certainly if you counted everything versus Windows it would lose. I wish we had real numbers on this. It would be interesting to see how many active windows devices there are versus linux or OS X. We need something like bsdstats.org that lets all non windows systems phone home and get counted (optionally). For instance, I run a BSD project and have absolutely no idea how many users I really have.

    3. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some TVs do run linux. Pioneers plasmas do for example. And before you ask, yes you can download linux from them and the manual contains the GPL license.

    4. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by ceeam · · Score: 1

      Wise you are. I wish I could too. Unfortunately it's a bit tricky freelancing on that market and available employment is somewhat crappy around here.

    5. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by Schnapple · · Score: 1
      Yes, if we widen what we count as a device, I bet Windows is irrelevant.
      If you widen the definition enough then Windows, Linux, MacOS and every flavor of UNIX combined have nothing on ITRON at over 3 billion units.
    6. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      There's a reason they didn't choose windows. A blue screen of death on a plasma TV you left on standby while you're away from home for a while could cause serious burn-in by the time you get back.

    7. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope Windows will be further sliding into irrelevancy. Further sliding into irrelevancy? Can I have some of what you are smoking, please?

    8. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by abigor · · Score: 1

      Good points. I believe TRON is actually the world's most popular os, last I heard. If you want 100% job security, learn this thing, and learn it well.

    9. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That type of work sounds very interesting. I have a background in CompSci (BS & MS) and was wondering if you could suggest how I could try to learn how to do this type of development? Thanks!

    10. Re:But is Windows is in top 3 OSs even? by westlake · · Score: 1
      I think that the average household has more Unix systems running for them than Windows. For example - I know for sure that my DVD player and my ADSL modem have Linux running in them.

      The embedded OS is never advertised.

      Unless it is product from Apple or Microsoft and brand-name recognition is a marketable feature. Because the device is more interactive and engaging than a toaster. The iPhone. The Windows Automotive PC.

      I hope Windows will be further sliding into irrelevancy.

      There is no danger of Windows sliding into irrelevancy so long as it remains the conscious choice of hundreds of millions of users. How Microsoft Conquered China

  18. more mind-numbing... by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    "more PCs running Windows in the world than there are automobiles"

    soon to be

    "more automobiles running Windows in the world, not just PCs"

    and don't forget boats for that matter: Windows for Warships (not a joke)

    luckily, even though one of microsoft's original software hits in the early 1980s was a flight simulator, this is still a joke... for now

    someone else can find the reality/ joke based depiction of windows running submarines, or spacecraft... or donkey mule carts... (mind numbing complete)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:more mind-numbing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The MS flight sim line stared with SubLogic. 1 and 2, bunch of scenery disks. They also made a simulator called JET, where you could fly a f16 or f18.

    2. Re:more mind-numbing... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and don't forget boats for that matter: Windows for Warships (not a joke) This "Windows for Warships" link is funnier:
      Windows NT Crashes, Leaving U.S.S. Yorktown Dead in the Water
      Ha!
    3. Re:more mind-numbing... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      So you need to go back to 1998 to dig up one instance of Windows leaving a ship stranded? Well at least you didn't need to go back 10 years.

    4. Re:more mind-numbing... by Miseph · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the DOJ could stretch that into a sabotage/terrorism case against "Bil Gaten" and the "Mi Crosoft" terrorist organization? Shit, if we've got to have that awful (un)PATRIOT Act, then we might as well do something constructive with it.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    5. Re:more mind-numbing... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
      I picked that article for its humor value, not for its timeliness. Reports of more recent incidents have unfortunately been duller. Or maybe there are funny reports of the more recent incidents, but I didn't feel like spending hours googling around just to make a witty comment.

      Ok, if ships bore you, here's a car story: BMW glitch locks Thai minister in. Sorry, this is also 4 years old, but it's hard to find more recent stories, as after this incident, car makers slowly moved away from Windows CE... (Yes, there was this Renault Velsatis careening down French freeways, ignoring the brake pedal, but unfortunately Renault has stayed mum about the software that they use...)

    6. Re:more mind-numbing... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should actually read the artcile you link to. FTFA:

      BMW has told CNETAsia that an electronic fault caused the problem, rather than a system crash of the car's Windows-based central computer, as other reports have speculated.

      Emphesis mine. You should also find the other poster to this thread that says Windows based cars will outnumber all other car OSes very shortly. Sorry, you're not a fanboy with no facts in reality.

  19. How many PCs have 2 Windows licenses? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm not talking XP and Vista either.

    I'm talking when a company buy a PC and has a corporate version of Windows XP (no activation req'd)
    That means MS gets:
    -one license for the PC leaving the store/reseller
      and
    -one when the company buys a corporate license for that PC.

    Therefore MS get a 2-for-1 deal, everytime!

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    1. Re:How many PCs have 2 Windows licenses? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      You should perhaps read the corporate license. It's an "upgrade only" license - you can upgrade PCs to the version of Windows you're licensed for but you still need an OEM license on them in the first place.

      Of course, this is a blatant lie in order to prop up Microsoft's sales figures. I present as evidence:

      1. The contract states that should you choose to buy this corporate license, you must license enough seats for every PC you own, not just the ones which shipped from the factory with some older version of Windows.

      2. The CD you get (or CD image if you download it) makes no effort to check you have a legitimate older version of Windows to upgrade from, or indeed any version of Windows whatsoever.

    2. Re:How many PCs have 2 Windows licenses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the universities with MS campus agreements...

    3. Re:How many PCs have 2 Windows licenses? by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      and a third when the box gets repurposed on end-of-life and a fresh license is required for the machine when it gets donated to charity.:

      http://www.microsoft.com/uk/refurbishers/

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  20. Automobile comparison by foodnugget · · Score: 1

    What about cars running windows "automotive"?
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsautomotive/default .mspx
    There seems to be some overlap here...

    oh man... "windows automotive". -shudder-

  21. MOD PARENT UP - INFORMATIVE by Linkiroth · · Score: 1

    Who doesn't love milfy bewbs, c'mon now.

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP - INFORMATIVE by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Milfy bewbs are great, but not on somebody with two heads. Especially if the smaller one looks like Garth from Wayne's World.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  22. I know I can count for at least 50... by rongage · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let me see... I had to reinstall Windows 12 times on my son's computer, 8 times on my Wife's computer, 5 times on my computer at work, 15 times on my dad's computer, and so on....

    Yeah, I can see how Microsoft can claim 1 billion installs - let's see them filter it out to "unique computers" and see where that number goes.

    --
    Ron Gage - Westland, MI
    1. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite frankly, if you have to install Windows that many times, you're doing something seriously wrong. I've only ever had to install twice on my current computer -- the second time was after a motherboard/hard drive controller swap. My mother and sister both have computers that are a few years old that they've never reinstalled on, and they're still doing just fine.

    2. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then frankly you should never be allowed to touch another computer because you are truly incable of using/maintaing one.

      Only time I have ever had to do a re-install of Windows is when a hard drive crashed, that is on 3 pc's of mine, 1 pc for my parents, 1 pc for a brother and a couple of pc's for friends.

      People can keep spouting this drivel, and people can keep on marking it 'informative', but for those who do not wear the linux rose coloured glases know it for what it is, complete BS.

    3. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      'Let me see... I had to reinstall Windows 12 times on my son's computer, 8 times on my Wife's computer, 5 times on my computer at work, 15 times on my dad's computer, and so on....

      Yeah, I can see how Microsoft can claim 1 billion installs - let's see them filter it out to "unique computers" and see where that number goes.' .. Jeez, that CD-R must be worn to the 'Mr Media' label by now!

    4. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by abigor · · Score: 1

      I've had the same Windows 2000 install happily running on my laptop since 2002, not a single virus or piece of malware. I think you're doing something wrong...maybe you should consider another hobby.

    5. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by westlake · · Score: 1
      Let me see... I had to reinstall Windows 12 times on my son's computer>

      I don't recall reinstalling Windows 95 twelve times - eight times - over the life of a 75 MHz Packard Bell. What the hell are you doing to these machines?

    6. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only time I have ever had to do a re-install of Windows is when a hard drive crashed, that is on 3 pc's of mine, 1 pc for my parents, 1 pc for a brother and a couple of pc's for friends.

      I wish he was trolling. In my experience, Windows reinstalls are, regrettably, way too common. Just today i saw two Windows reinstalls in PCs at work, destined to be industrial SCADA software testbeds. One refused to instal Simatic WinCC until the OS was reinstalled, which, truth being told, seems to be normal business with Siemens software. The other one borked its database services when patching SQL Server 2000.

      I don't know if there's a better way of fixing such issues, but after a few hours of battling with obscure error messages and endless reboots, the responsibles decided to wipe the harddrives clean and start over.

    7. Re:I know I can count for at least 50... by tkiesel · · Score: 1

      I don't recall reinstalling Windows 95 twelve times - eight times - over the life of a 75 MHz Packard Bell. What the hell are you doing to these machines?

      It's his son's computer. Use your imagination. ;)

  23. Does that include reinstalls? by Linker3000 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Is that unique, single installs or does the figure include poor little Timmy who has had to reinstall Vista 7 times just to get the damn video drivers to work? /DRTFA //But then that's not the done thing is it!?

    --
    AT&ROFLMAO
  24. Why surprised? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you stop and just think about that, parse that for a second, by the end of our fiscal year '08, there will be more PCs running Windows in the world than there are automobiles, which is at least to me kind of a mind-numbing concept

    Not sure why that's so mind-numbing. I personally own more computers than I do cars, and I have my laptop from work. Two out of my three machines are Windows.

    I'm sure most of us work in environments where computers outnumber people. And, I'm sure the back-room infrastructure of most IT departments consists of a fair number of machines doing various things. (And, any sufficiently large organization is gonna have at least one IT department/location.) Hell, I bet Microsoft and Google combined have several hundred thousand machines if not more.

    Now, I have no idea of how they estimated this 1 billion machines, but I don't find it a surprising number at all -- I bet my office of 50 people has well over 100 computers running Windows, and we're one office in a multi-national corporation.

    Cheers
    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Why surprised? by pogson · · Score: 3, Interesting
      see http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=C0_7_1

      There are lots of PCs out there. I have seen a few '95 and '98 machines still in use (Horrors!).

      The aspect that eludes M$ is that of the existing PCs, very few can run Vista. M$ plans to kill off XP next year for new licences, and upgrades of XP soon. Will the world trash hundreds of millions of working PCs, PIII and later? Why would they? The world will find Linux ready to run on them with modern software. It takes a salesman to announce a problem with the M$ empire is an advantage.

      Whether it likes it or not, the world will not trash that many working PCs and M$ will have to supply a product for them or drop out. This is not like the good old days when M$ had to persuade folks to shift from 8MHz CPUs to 400MHz CPUs where they could see a real benefit. Nowadays, 3000 MHz CPUs are idling and they want folks to run dual core models that can do 200 frames per second in high resolution to read text.

      --
      A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
    2. Re:Why surprised? by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

      Not sure why that's so mind-numbing.


      Reinstall Windows for the 11th time on the same machine, and you'll quickly discover why it's so mind-numbing.

  25. They're just counting the WGA nags by Vicegrip · · Score: 3, Funny

    What they're counting is the number of times WGA pops up to confirm that your copy of Windows is valid.

    It's just retarded how many times that fucking thing pops up.... Microsoft wants to double quadruple check or something....

    User: "but you already checked!!!" ....

    MS: "yes and we're going to check again, bend over please .... you like using the computer you paid for right? We'll fix you good if you don't comply."

    --
    Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
  26. Including 10 million Bots and virtual Instances... by IceRa · · Score: 1

    ... 1 Billion will probably reached early Q3/2008
    *scnr*
    For once, Microsoft is ahead of its road map!

    Greetz, Ice

    --
    Sig? Where I go, I don't need ... sigs.
  27. I need a countdown... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I need a website with a ticking countdown to the exact moment when they supposedly hit 1 billion. I will choose that moment to hit the 'install' button on my Ubuntu live CD and kiss^H^Hck goodbye to Windows forever, so that at that moment there will in fact be only 1 billion-1 Windows machines in the world.

    Maybe we should organise a giant, worldwide "install Linux" event, scheduled for that exact moment=-)

  28. Energy savings by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just think of the energy savings if they had made it the black screen of death.

  29. but, but... the housing market is down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And where exactly are they installing this billion windows, when know very well that the housing market down?

  30. I thought they already accomplished this... by The+employee+can+cho · · Score: 2, Funny

    They already have 1 billion Windows installations in China, all with the same activation key.

  31. Mind numbing is right by brennz · · Score: 1

    So many support calls!

    1. Re:Mind numbing is right by slickwillie · · Score: 1

      I find it mind numbing also.

      But probably not in the same sense as Ballmer.

  32. I sense a disturbance in the force by Progman3K · · Score: 0

    It's as if a billion PCs crashed out in blue-screens at once...

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
  33. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it was announced that a billion people bought a copy of windows reformatted the disk and installed Linux.

    Get a clue Balmer. All because the copy was sold it doesn't mean the computer is running it.

    I wonder if the billion includes pirated versions?

  34. Never subtract! Never Surrender! by conspirator57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Add number of instance licenses sold
    to maximum population estimates of site license holders
    to the highest out-of-thin-air web or internally reported estimate of unlicensed instances
    add the results of rolling some chicken bones

    Repeat until your number sounds psychologically significant.

    But all that's ok. McDonalds still has them beat in the meaningless BS accounting department. They gave up at "Billions and Billions Served" though you can occasionally find one with a number in front of the billions. All things considered, i'd rather have the big mac than windows.

    --
    "If still these truths be held to be
    Self evident."
    -Edna St. Vincent Millay
  35. How many will be pirated? by jkrise · · Score: 1

    I cannot imagine a billion Vista installations within a year.... Even on new PCs in India, the local hardware shop only offers PCs with 256MB RAM, 15" CRT monitor, DVD drives and pirated Windows 2000 - the software is installed gratis, there's no profits for the h/w dealer or Microsoft.

    Even a recent crackdown against such dealers only brought negative publicity for Microsoft - as mentioned in the BusinessWeek article. With Vista's h/w requirements much more expensive (twice the h/w price for Win 2K) and numerous problems for home users with XP - (AutoUpdate, IE7 etc.); Win2K is the preferred OS for all concerned; and that is available only in pirated form.

    Branded PC vendors used to make their hardware in such a way older Windows versions will not install - and they are shunned because of this practice. And so, while there may be a billion Windows PCs in a year from now, my guess is that atleast 75% of it will be pirated editions. Students buying laptops and home PCs form the single biggest chunk - and they seem to prefer the Eclipse IDE and XAMPP on Linux boxes for this. Even on Windows, these 2 are the most frequently used apps, besides the Firefox / Opera browser.

    Since it is students who will drive future installation patterns, I guess the OS will lose relevance and fade away - while the browser (Firefox), IDE (Eclipse) and Programming setup (XAMPP) wars have already been fought and won by the Open Source folks. Only Firefox behaves a bit different on Windows and Linux - for the rest, students care very little what OS powers their PC. Linux wins because it needs lesser hardware, has more drivers, and is easy to install, backup and recover - allowing students to focus on their learning.

    By 2008, I think hardly anyone will care what OS powers their PC.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
  36. Poor, poor FOSSies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    And that, dear FOSSies, is the definitive proof that Lunix is dead.

    Nobody wants Lunix for free, nobody wants Lunix if the alternative is paying for (or even stealing!!) Windows... so MS is clearly giving the people what they want.

    If teh Lunix had a market share which was over the statistical margin of error, perhaps more than double digits, then perhaps it would look competitive. But... such is not the case.

    Game Over.

    1. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by utopianfiat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, the reason why Microsoft is showing such an inflated number of installs is people are buying OEM Vista machines, getting fed the fuck up with the OS, and going out and buying a copy of XP, so MS can double-dip their figures.
      1 billion installs isn't that much, especially considering that they're probably including numbers from Windows 386 or DOS forward. It just means that some random guy reinstalled so many times that they're counting 1 billion installs.
      Is my food tasty, troll?

      --
      +5, Truth
    2. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that, dear Troll, is definitive proof that you're an idiot.

    3. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never, ever, not even once, heard of anyone getting an OEM copy of Windows, and then going out and buying another flavor.

      If anything, these numbers are probably deflated, as I have bought exactly one OEM computer in my life with Windows over 10 years ago, but ahem "acquired" it for at least 4 subsequent machines. In college, Windows and Office CD's were passed around like candy.

    4. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by Anthony+Baby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not just OEM Vista, they are surely including OEM installs of every version of Windows. I own Windows 98 four times over despite the fact that I never wanted or even used it, Windows 95 three times, XP Pro once, and XP Home four times.

    5. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by Ortega-Starfire · · Score: 1

      I was just curious if they were counting all of my reformats after WGA "recertifies" my computer as genuine.

      --
      ---- Liquid was a patriot ----
    6. Re:Poor, poor FOSSies by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      First the numbers are nonsense. How many Windows uninstalls exist? As for Linux being free I love it. I would trash can my PCs if I had to run Windows.

  37. 1/6th the population? by this213 · · Score: 0

    Seriously, they must be counting everything from Win 3.x that wasn't bought as an "upgrade". They're at the very least counting every new Dell that gets bought and promptly reformatted for Linux (or BSD even).

    The world only has 6.6 billion people (google for "world population"). Once you figure some people are too young to even know what a computer is, some are physically disabled to the point of not being able to use a computer, many elderly couldn't care less about a computer and then the billions who can't afford one; Something like this would have to mean that every single person who has a computer runs Windows on something like a hundred systems or so.

    Yeah right. You can't even get me to install it on one system.

  38. Windows by PalmKiller · · Score: 1

    Well yea, but they are counting the windows ce (or embedded or whatever they call it this week) devices too. Probably counting the probability of some old windows 95/98/me/NT/XP, etc. Marketing at it best, a billion users can't be wrong must be going through all the companies officers heads right now. Thing is many of those machines may have never ran windows at all, once they left the store they got new life as linux/bsd boxes and the like.

    1. Re:Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thing is many of those machines may have never ran windows at all, once they left the store they got new life as linux/bsd boxes and the like.

      yeah, millions of users are just installing linux right over their new boxen without ever letting windows boot once.

      the truth is that just as much as you guys like to claim this kind of thing there are probably just as many, if not more, people running linux as a virtual machine than there are people buying a windows machine and putting linux on it.

      i doubt that the term "many" applies here.

    2. Re:Windows by PalmKiller · · Score: 1

      Your smokin crack aren't you AC? I bet thats why you wanted to keep your identity a secret.

  39. Guess PT Barnum was wrong... by xednieht · · Score: 1

    He said "there's a sucker born every minute..." Based on Ballmer's claim and their 30 year history it's more like every second.

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
  40. Some Details by infonography · · Score: 1, Funny

    Population about 6-7 Billion now. So lets figure that only one in 6 is gullible enough to buy Windows.

    To do first line Tech Support they will need at least 250 Million people to answer phones with 'Is the powercord plugged in?" and "Hit Ctrl-alt-delete several times till it reboots" These are the lucky ones they will have jobs for life! [till somebody builds a Linux-based AI to use an Eliza strategy to answer calls]

    We will also need a crack team of at least 50 Million Linux/Mac Users to mock Window Users full time. Honestly I think it pretty much have of the user base that engages in this. But these people will be trained professionals dammit! {I should start a magazine devoted to Pr0n and Windows Mockery, it will be bigger then Playboy, Penthouse and Southern Baptist Monthly. Talk about a wankfest)

    Coders, well need lots of them. Coders can work for anybody C++ is universal as is Java. C# and .Net programmers will be useful we just need a lot of those little yellow school buses.

    And Garbage Haulers, We're gonna need them badly!

    Finally we'll need Al Gore. (Thats an obvious one)

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
    1. Re:Some Details by arth1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      To do first line Tech Support they will need at least 250 Million people to answer phones with 'Is the powercord plugged in?" and "Hit Ctrl-alt-delete several times till it reboots" These are the lucky ones they will have jobs for life!

      You've obviously never worked in tech support, or you'd know that You Must Never Say "hit".

      "Press control, which is usually at the bottom left of the keyboard, yes that would be left for you, not me, and keep on holding the control key down while you with the same hand press down the key marked "ALT", which is usually two steps over to the right, and keep on holding down that too, and no, you should not have left go of the control key when pressing the alt key, yes you really need to press both at the same time, no, and holding them down, because now you need to hit Delete, which is in the general top right area of the keyboard... Hello? Hello? You hit it? Erm, how hard? Yes, I know I said you should hit it, and I am very sorry. We will come out to you with a new keyboard, and again, we are very sorry for causing this problem for you, Sir. ..."
    2. Re:Some Details by ozbird · · Score: 1

      You've obviously never worked in tech support, or you'd know that You Must Never Say "hit".

      And never say "bounce" (power cycle) your computer, unless you want the manager to lift the computer several inches off the desk and drop it... Really.

  41. One billion by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    One can foul one billion persons one time... and apparently one billion persons 5 or 6 times when you are called Microsoft.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:One billion by AceJohnny · · Score: 1

      One can foul one billion persons one time... and apparently one billion persons 5 or 6 times when you are called Microsoft. You mean "fool".
      --
      Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
  42. Dr. Evil? by d3ac0n · · Score: 1, Funny

    I'm sorry, but a quote like that just makes me think of Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies.

    Bill Gates: *with pinky curved up to lip* Gentlemen, we will have Windows Vista installed on ONE BEEELLIIION computers by the end of the year!

    Steve Ballmer: *wearing an eyepatch due to a ricocheting chair leg accident* But Sir, that's.. that's just...

    Bill Gates: Eeevil? *camera zooms in while dramatic music plays*

    --
    Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    1. Re:Dr. Evil? by coren2000 · · Score: 1

      Bill Gates: Mwahahahahahahahaha
      Steve Ballmer: *Sees his number one begin another evil cackling session* Mwahahaha
      Martha Stewart: *Enters and joins in the cackling with a strange eastern European accent* Mwahahahahaha
      Entire City of Redmond: Mwahahahahahahahahahaha

      All laughter stops. Close up of Gates with pinky curved up to lip

    2. Re:Dr. Evil? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Musical Interlude begins

      60's music plays as Linus Torvalds and a swinging LUG group can be seen dancing in various shots to a backdrop of psychedelic screensavers. Hensonesque penguin puppets skitter humorously in the foreground throughout, whilst in the background, Richard Stallman floats in a zen like mediation stance.

      The sequence ends with whirling $ logo cutting into the next scene.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  43. Ah, don't underestimate MS by tjstork · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There's a lot of good stuff in Windows, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Sure, we know that Linux has a better networking stack now, but, there have been things that Windows does better than Linux and will be so in the future.

    a) Windows XP remote desktop is easier to deal with than X remoting.
    b) Both KDE and Gnome borrow u/i design heavily from the Windows 95 Start Bar. The concept of COM based shell extensions was looted by KParts.
    c) Cairo is essentially a GDI+ me too.
    d) There's still nothing in Unix that has the same handy role as a Graphics Device Context.
    e) Although I prefer OpenGL for its ease of entry, a lot of big gaming houses seem to prefer DirectX.
    f) For a long time, Windows lead in hardware discovery. Linux has closed that gap, I think, but in 1995, I was editing config files to get my X to work with my monitor, and Windows would discover both for me automatically.
    g) It's -STILL- easier to install a new piece of software on Windows. Too easy, the security people will refrain... :-)

    And, in the applications department, there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#, SQL Server 2005, and certainly not even Office 2000, let alone newer versions of Office. Sure, OpenOffice word processing is ok, but the spreadsheet is crap, and the "Access" clone is terrible. On the other hand, C++ for Linux has I think pulled ahead of what MS offers, but only really because MS is standing still in C++. If they got pissed off enough, they'd throw a billion dollars into the language and crush us.

    The bottom line is, while you and I and many other people like Linux better than Windows, Windows IS a good product, and pretending that its not won't change it. What will change it,is more software for Linux.

    Get typing.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by siride · · Score: 2, Informative

      I guess I can agree with most of what you say, but I am puzzled by this statement:

      d) There's still nothing in Unix that has the same handy role as a Graphics Device Context.

      X does have Graphics Contexts and toolkits obviously build upon those as they see fit. It's a pretty standard part of a GUI these days, anyways. Perhaps you are annoyed that in X, the graphics context does exactly what it's supposed to...store graphics contextual information, rather than be a catch-all way to do graphics operations. Of course, then again, you can use the same graphics context with multiple drawables (windows, pixmaps) rather than having the GC be tied to one and only one drawable. I personally find the X system far more flexible than the Windows system, and not particularly more difficult to use or understand.

    2. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by tjstork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What I was talking about though, was that a DC in Windows is device independent. So, in Windows you can have the same set of code for printing as you do for display rendering. I think that's pretty nifty. And, Windows Metafiles too, were interesting. Had Microsoft been smart, they could have built a browser around a WMF hacked up to have hyperlinks. They had all the pieces in place as early as 1992, but, they just didn't see the application.

      --
      This is my sig.
    3. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by GiMP · · Score: 1

      So, in Windows you can have the same set of code for printing as you do for display rendering. I think that's pretty nifty.


      Isn't that what Xprint is for?
    4. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To me, none of those things are the hallmark of a good operating system. MS has coded some nice things into their OS on a higher level, but the underlying OS itself is terrible. OpenGL doesn't make an OS. Remote desktop doesn't make an OS. Good APIs, good scheduling, good timesharing, good fault tolerance, good response, good hardware support (ok, Windows has this at least), good networking, good filesystem, good caching strategy, etc... THOSE are the things that make an OS good. Windows might be a good windowing system, but IMO it's a terrible OS because it fails to provide the basics at a really good quality level, with really good performance.

    5. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, please explain to me, what is wrong with Windows scheduling, timesharing, fault tolerance, response, file system and networking. It seems to provide those very nicely, and any developer can tap into those features as well. Be specific, repeating your statement doesn't make it true.

    6. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's also a lot of bad stuff in windows, which is what is being dismissed. Meanwhile, you are too quick to dismiss linux:

      a) but linux has ssh, which is far easier than having to remote desktop in to do most tasks. Forcing users to run a full GUI to copy a file is terrible design.
      b) and windows 95 borrowed heavily from Mac OS and OS/2. Vista is borrowing heavily from OSX and Beryl/Compiz. Not an argument.
      c) see b) above.
      d) the power of X11 comes from a separation between what is being drawn and the hardware involved; remote X11 connections are just an instance of this. GDI is a different way of abstracting that information. Besides, regular users don't care *how* it's being drawn.
      e) From it's inception, directX was considered inferiour to openGL by all of the big gaming houses. DirectX's popularity is a product of marketing. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_ and_Direct3D for some background).
      f) it is now 2007, and linux is far ahead of windows in hardware discovery, and with a few exceptions doesn't even require you to install drivers (now where's the win98 driver floppy for my printer?).
      g) you haven't used adept or any of the other modern package managers, clearly. I can install thousands of packages with just a few clicks (and then walk away to have a coffee), or a single command line if I prefer. Windows still requires manual downloading, inserting CDs, clicking through msis and installshields, manual dependency resolution, manual package updating... Kubuntu has a "new package notifier" in the system tray that will not only tell me what OS components need updating, but also which games/office suites/perl modules/utilities/etc can be updated, and which still gives me complete control over what I want to install.

      Your FUD is several years out of date. Please try a modern linux distro and come back with some valid complaints.

    7. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "...there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to...SQL Server 2005"

      +5 Funny, anyone?

    8. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I am headed towards linux.

      Here is what I want when I finally get there.

      I want my three machines to all talk to each other automagically like my windows boxes do so I can easily move stuff around.

      I want to be able to view video (I use videolan so it that will be a no brainer).
      I want a p2p application that works well (I use azureus- so no brainer tho I hear there is better).
      I want an easy to use graphics editor (Gimp isn't cutting it).
      I want an easy to use video editor (???)
      I want an easy to use office suite (Openoffice has come a long way-- not quite there yet but 99.9%-- i think as of release 2.4 it will be where i require it)
      I want an easy to use sound editor (Audacity is super-- and on linux too so good there)
      I want usb drives and a color laser printer that works.

      The biggest problem I had last time with linux is that it didn't "just work". Windows "just works" and the two times I have had a problem in 12 years of windows usage, I called up- paid my $35 and Microsoft fixed it (heroically in one case- they had 5 engineers including a couple senior ones on the call last time - spent several hours).

      Microsoft has very good customer service compared to Sony (who I despise and will never buy another product from- haven't since 2000 when customer service was actually insulting). Linux has no customer service. It has a large community of experts who often act like Sony customer service to people who do not have a clue.

      So I guess what I need most of all to finish the move to Linux is a community of people who are friendly to and supportive of absolute beginners. They have most of the hardware and software options I need. It's just the people treatment and skills mostly now (and a good easy to use graphic editor).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    9. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by thebdj · · Score: 4, Informative

      a) Windows XP remote desktop is easier to deal with than X remoting.

      I have to respectfully disagree. Not only does remotely using X offer far more flexibility then RDP, I believe it is a better bandwidth user then RDP. It should be noted we shouldn't praise MS for RDP either, their original TS implementation sucked. Citrix licensed their stuff off to MS so MS could make a better product. Look at old TS and compare it with Citrix of that time period, you will see who was the leader.

      b) Both KDE and Gnome borrow u/i design heavily from the Windows 95 Start Bar. The concept of COM based shell extensions was looted by KParts.

      Ah, but the glory is we are not limited to those two interfaces. WindowMaker, Enlightenment, XFCE, and others offer more ways to use X and in many cases are less overhead then using Gnome or KDE. Not to mention X has allowed you for ages to have multiple desktops, something that was only possible with third party apps for a long time in Windows. You can also heavily customize the UIs to be less Windows like if you want. Besides, isn't the Win 95 Start Bar essentially a rip-off of the Mac Apple?

      e) Although I prefer OpenGL for its ease of entry, a lot of big gaming houses seem to prefer DirectX.

      Blame MS for this; however, there are plenty of games that will work just fine in Linux. id seems hell bent on continuing to make their games run on Linux. UT2004 worked (and I pray UT3 does as well). Other games using DirectX will work, though some of them can only do so much in Wine and it is somewhat limited to older DX apps. Honestly, if you play that many games you can always dual boot or just stick with Windows. The gaming argument is weak at best.

      f) For a long time, Windows lead in hardware discovery. Linux has closed that gap, I think, but in 1995, I was editing config files to get my X to work with my monitor, and Windows would discover both for me automatically.

      This is just a poor argument. Tell me how many issues you've had in 2007? I will also say that there is better legacy support in Linux then Windows. I can still find devices that won't install drivers from the base Windows install but can in Linux, even if only well enough for me to get drivers that work well. The gap is practically closed with the largest problem being the quality of some video drivers.

      g) It's -STILL- easier to install a new piece of software on Windows. Too easy, the security people will refrain... :-)

      Really? Use apt-get or one of the various front-ends available or yum and then tell me this. Both of these do great at handling dependencies and make installations rather painless. Not to mention I do not need to spend hours installing extra software since most of what I need is installed when I install the OS, including IM clients, web browsers (not owned by MS), office applications, etc.

      And, in the applications department, there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#, SQL Server 2005, and certainly not even Office 2000, let alone newer versions of Office.

      Okay. Visual Studio is great if you are building for Windows. How well can you build on other platforms? Not at all. Go figure. KDevelop is actually fairly good and offers most the items that the average developer will probably ever use. Of course, I still prefer writing makefiles and source by hand. I've never been a huge fan of IDEs. As for Office, I must laugh. First, word processing of 2000 compared to either Abiword or OOo is equivalent in all regards. I see no advantage to either, except for the fact that both Abiword and OOo will still be supported long after 2000 is not. I have seen no major issues with Calc compared to Excel and if you are using Access (or Base) for a database, you should really get your head examined. Most database people will tell you that Access is not a good solution for a database and

      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    10. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jZnat · · Score: 1

      Try to run something that uses 100% CPU and then try to do anything else while that happens. What a great scheduler...

      Also, try to fill up your RAM. Kind of hard, isn't it? Windows doesn't seem to think you have as much RAM as you do and starts to swap far too early to be considered useful. This is why people complain about Firefox using $x amount of RAM; Windows starts to swap way too early and causes slowdowns all around.

      Try to delete a file that's in use (something you can do in any Unix-like system). File in use? Whoops, can't do that.

      Also, Windows has jack shit support for more filesystems than their own FAT and NTFS families (both of which get fragmented; modern filesystems prevent that on the fly). Sure, you can get more support via plugins (I believe there are two different ways to make a filesystem plugin for Windows: kernel and shell), but that isn't as reliable as having native support for them. Windows should at least support FFS (fast filesystem, the UNIX/BSD file system of choice for a few decades).

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    11. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jZnat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Try out a LiveCD of Ubuntu or Kubuntu to see how well your hardware works (which should all work based on what you've said).

      For image editting, on Kubuntu (or any KDE-based distribution really), try out Krita which is a lot more similar to Photoshop than Gimp ever will be. There is also cinepaint for an Aperture-like program.

      For video editting, there's Kino and Cinelerra (I don't believe this is in the repository, so installing it isn't as easy as tick the box -> install). There is also Avidemux, but that seems to be more suited for small edits and transcoding videos (GNOME program as well, not that it matters if you don't care about desktop environments).

      For office, check out KOffice (faster and better than OpenOffice.org).

      For video, you can still use VLC of course, but you can also check out Kaffeine with libxine1-ffmpeg and the win32 codecs (download at http://www.mplayerhq.hu/design7/dload.html, get the essential codecs, extract to /usr/local/lib/codecs/; there is probably an easier way to do this via EasyUbuntu or something like that, but this is how I normally do it) for support for everything ever.

      If you need more help, you can contact me via Jabber (in profile), or you can go on IRC (Konversation's a good client for that) on Freenode at #kubuntu. There are also the Ubuntu Forums as well as alt.os.linux.ubuntu (for some reason, I can't find the group on Google Groups, but it's available in AT&T's Usenet mirror). The community is very friendly and helpful, so don't be shy!

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    12. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Try to run something that uses 100% CPU and then try to do anything else while that happens. What a great scheduler...

      I don't have any problems using 100% CPU; when its doing disk operations though there is a slow down, but you have to expect a program hitting the disk that much will slow up other disk operations.

      Also, try to fill up your RAM. Kind of hard, isn't it? Windows doesn't seem to think you have as much RAM as you do and starts to swap far too early to be considered useful. This is why people complain about Firefox using $x amount of RAM; Windows starts to swap way too early and causes slowdowns all around.

      People complaining that FF uses too much RAM have two issues; one is that the memory used column in Task manager isn't accurate. The second is that there does seem to be a memory leak in FF. As far as swapping goes, i don't see the OS swapping until it is out of physical RAM. Since you want to talk about disk problems though, perhaps you should try Linux an an AMD x2 chip and see what happens.

      Try to delete a file that's in use (something you can do in any Unix-like system). File in use? Whoops, can't do that.

      Wow, that's the ONE complain about the FS you have? Big deal.. it doesn't let you delete a file in use. The only really ligitimate use of that "feature" is to hide what your program is doing, which a ligitmate process shouldn't need to do anyway.

      Also, Windows has jack shit support for more filesystems than their own FAT and NTFS families (both of which get fragmented; modern filesystems prevent that on the fly). Sure, you can get more support via plugins (I believe there are two different ways to make a filesystem plugin for Windows: kernel and shell), but that isn't as reliable as having native support for them. Windows should at least support FFS (fast filesystem, the UNIX/BSD file system of choice for a few decades).

      Again, who cares? Ext2 suffers fragmentation as well. The newest NTFS deals with this as well. How many Linux systems go beyond FAT and ext2/3? Not many I'd image. Support is there, sure, but is it useful to the majority of computer users? Nope. Your fringe case when you need more than a few filesystems supported doesn't make Windows a crap OS.

    13. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      The paging is something that can be controlled in Windows, it may swap out too early for you but for that vast majority of people out there the default works just fine. For those like you, myself included, we modify the registry to change the swapping behavior.

      HKEY_LM/SYSTEM/CurrentControlSet/Control/Session Manager/Memory Management>

      I would like to see better file system support for Windows but I don't think that's going to happen. As for the scheduler, that behavior can be controlled as well. If I have an app that I know is going to be intensive then I just change it's priority and away I go. Even easier multiple cores and multiple processors as you can set affinity

      Scheduling on the Linux end of things has definitely been improving faster than on the Windows end. I'd say after more than 10 years of course the kernel and the big distributions are going to pull ahead in some ways and stay behind in others. It's the nature of competition and the reason my next laptop will have a Linux distro on it with Windows inside a VM.

    14. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      a) Windows XP remote desktop is easier to deal with than X remoting.

      vnc... though application-level remoting is a charm with X.

      b) Both KDE and Gnome borrow u/i design heavily from the Windows 95 Start Bar. The concept of COM based shell extensions was looted by KParts.

      KDE is pretty nice sporting loads of features, but not nearly as smooth as win or many commercial desktops.

      c) Cairo is essentially a GDI+ me too.

      A straightforward evolution of bitmapped display, not a me too.

      e) Although I prefer OpenGL for its ease of entry, a lot of big gaming houses seem to prefer DirectX.

      f) For a long time, Windows lead in hardware discovery. Linux has closed that gap, I think, but in 1995, I was editing config files to get my X to work with my monitor, and Windows would discover both for me automatically.

      This is actually good. Almost all hardware comes with win drivers, but no indication of quality.
      Before buying anything I usually do a 'fgrep --invert-match crap /usr/src/linux/Documentation' to list preferred options.

      g) It's -STILL- easier to install a new piece of software on Windows. Too easy, the security people will refrain... :-)

      I am sure you never had the experience of installing Team Foundation Server or Sharepoint.

      And, in the applications department, there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#, SQL Server 2005, and certainly not even Office 2000, let alone newer versions of Office. Sure, OpenOffice word processing is ok, but the spreadsheet is crap, and the "Access" clone is terrible

      First things first, any clone of 'Access' is most certainly crap, but Access is even worse. Excel is excellent. VS2005 is pretty good, but 2003 was a bugfest. I'd prefer Linux+PostgresQl anytime over a Win+SQLServer2005.


      But for now, I like XP best for desktop use.

    15. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Reverend528 · · Score: 1

      Ok, please explain to me, what is wrong with Windows scheduling, timesharing, fault tolerance, response, file system and networking.

      Well, in 1995, windows didn't have memory protection.

    16. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Aetuneo · · Score: 1

      "g) It's -STILL- easier to install a new piece of software on Windows. Too easy, the security people will refrain... :-)" It all depends on what distro and software you use. Try Freespire with CNR; once you find the software, it literally takes one click to install it. You don't have to manually download anything, you just have to click a button. How easy is that? Of course, finding the software you need can still take some work.

      --
      Everything is subjective.
    17. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      Or the whole of Cairo nowadays...

    18. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Orange+Crush · · Score: 1

      b) Both KDE and Gnome borrow u/i design heavily from the Windows 95 Start Bar.

      The task bar paradigm, perhaps, but I remember a devious reviewer on CNET or one of those computer tv shows back in the day Win95 came out who cheekily dragged the task bar to the top of the screen and "my computer" and the "recycle bin" to the right side of the desktop and asking "look familiar?"

    19. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by maztuhblastah · · Score: 1

      there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#

      I'd actually contest that. C# is basically a me-too version of Java, and Visual Studio 2005 is... well... crap. I'd much rather use Eclipse and Java than VS2005 and C# any day.

    20. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by presearch · · Score: 1

      Actually, Windows95 "borrowed" much of it's look from NeXT.
      The font, the bevel of the buttons, the layout of dialogs, window controls, and much more.

      At the time, Microsoft didn't think anyone would notice.

    21. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he is right, nothing compares to the ease of use and integration of SQL Server.

    22. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by LEgregius · · Score: 1

      Try to delete a file that's in use (something you can do in any Unix-like system). File in use? Whoops, can't do that. Wow, that's the ONE complain about the FS you have? Big deal.. it doesn't let you delete a file in use. The only really ligitimate use of that "feature" is to hide what your program is doing, which a ligitmate process shouldn't need to do anyway. I'm sorry, That causes problems during development ALL THE TIME. I can't tell you how many times I've had to sit for 30 minutes or so, or just reboot, because I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't let me delete or edit a file. That is on of the worst mis-features in windows. They just did it that because of laziness.

    23. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by dal20402 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd suggest Tuxpaint to you and your like.

      This sort of comment is exactly what he's complaining about, and a very good reason for someone without an extensive *x bacground to avoid desktop Linux. You just undid all the goodwill that the previous, very informative reply might have generated.

      He isn't a computing n00b. If he wants something comparable to Photoshop, and similarly easy to use, don't smugly point him to a kids' drawing program. Just because a program is arcane and difficult to use (GIMP, although it's *slowly* getting better) doesn't automatically mean it's more powerful. Likewise, just because a user seeks a usable program doesn't mean that user is stupid or doesn't need serious functionality.

      Given that Linux users needing support have no alternative but to turn to the community, it's pretty unhelpful when the community is rude and condescending.

      You can't have it both ways. Either 1) you want Linux to stay the domain of a few self-satisfied, smug nerds, and accordingly never become important on the desktop, or 2) you need to realize there will be users who are new to Linux but, somehow, nevertheless manage to be smart and competent people.

    24. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by seandiggity · · Score: 1

      Just thought I'd have a little fun responding to your points; no animosity intended.

      There's a lot of good stuff in Windows, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Sure, we know that Linux has
      a better networking stack now, but, there have been things that Windows does better than Linux and will be so in the future.


      Maybe, but I hope not. I want a free software replacement for everything Windows and OSX do.

      a) Windows XP remote desktop is easier to deal with than X remoting.

      In Ubuntu, Remote Desktop could not be easier to set up.

      b) Both KDE and Gnome borrow u/i design heavily from the Windows 95 Start Bar. The concept of COM based shell extensions was looted by KParts.

      Even if this is true, so what? We shouldn't place ownership on these concepts (e.g. software patents). Microsoft certainly isn't an innovator, as even a cursory review of its history should show.

      c) Cairo is essentially a GDI+ me too.

      See comment above.

      d) There's still nothing in Unix that has the same handy role as a Graphics Device Context.

      You could be right on this one, I don't know enough to comment.

      e) Although I prefer OpenGL for its ease of entry, a lot of big gaming houses seem to prefer DirectX.

      Big gaming houses seem to hardly care about anything but Windows, so this is no surprise.

      f) For a long time, Windows lead in hardware discovery. Linux has closed that gap, I think, but in 1995, I was editing config files to get my X to work with my monitor, and Windows would discover both for me automatically.

      Most of us have had driver problems (or codec problems) like the one you mention, if we've been using anything that's not a Windows or a Mac. That is, if we haven't chosen hardware specifically for known compatibility. There are business and political reasons why many (most?) of these compatibility problems exist that may not be rectified unless GNU/Linux/Unix distros keep grabbing a bigger chunk of the desktop market. Oh and I've had plenty of hardware problems with Windows since 1995...

      g) It's -STILL- easier to install a new piece of software on Windows. Too easy, the security people will refrain... :-)

      Apparently you haven't used a package manager like Synaptic recently, or seen Ubuntu's (GNOME's?) "Update Manager" or "Add Remove" frontends.

      And, in the applications department, there's really no open source offering that comes remotely close to Visual Studio 2005 and C#, SQL Server 2005, and certainly not even Office 2000, let alone newer versions of Office. Sure, OpenOffice word processing is ok, but the spreadsheet is crap, and the "Access" clone is terrible. On the other hand, C++ for Linux has I think pulled ahead of what MS offers, but only really because MS is standing still in C++. If they got pissed off enough, they'd throw a billion dollars into the language and crush us.

      Well let's try to improve free software apps and make them better than the proprietary alternatives (for that matter, let's try not to think of them as clones of Microsoft/Apple software).

      The bottom line is, while you and I and many other people like Linux better than Windows, Windows IS a good product, and pretending that its not won't change it. What will change it,is more software for Linux.

      No, I think Windows is a bad product, from a technical standpoint, even when the operating system is considered in toto (and not just pointing out flaws in one or two areas). This is especially true for Vista, and it's not difficult to see why. Since you seem to be concerned with ease of use for the "average user", what does Vista really offer them? I mean, Compiz/Beryl even has Vista beaten in the eyecandy department! I also think there's a moral imperative to try to use free software whenever possible, even without mentioning the horrible restrictions Microsoft puts on the users of its software.

      Get typing.

      I did :)

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    25. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by AlmostEarthling · · Score: 1

      AFAICS Cairo is even more than a DC, even sharing some concepts with it, and it has many backends (and obviously several frontends, being a library). But the point is that it's a relatively young project, thus more a candidate for a standard than a standard itself. Also, should it become a real standard, we live in a world where standards are a nice thing because there's a lot of them to choose from. I'm afraid that, when Cairo reaches a sufficient popularity, there will still be people trying to reinvent the wheel by providing some sort of reimplementation of DCs.

      F.

    26. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps they did it because they didn't want a program running to be using a specific version of a component, have it unloaded and the next time it loads its a newer version.

      You're doing something wrong if this is hitting you all the time during development. I've been developing on Windows for 10 years now, and have not had this features impede my development. Its also trivial to find which process is using the file in question; its called FileMon.

    27. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by dc29A · · Score: 0

      To me, none of those things are the hallmark of a good operating system. MS has coded some nice things into their OS on a higher level, but the underlying OS itself is terrible. OpenGL doesn't make an OS. Remote desktop doesn't make an OS. Good APIs, good scheduling, good timesharing, good fault tolerance, good response, good hardware support (ok, Windows has this at least), good networking, good filesystem, good caching strategy, etc... THOSE are the things that make an OS good. Windows might be a good windowing system, but IMO it's a terrible OS because it fails to provide the basics at a really good quality level, with really good performance. Underlying OS is terrible? Maybe you should read about a bit before making dismissive statements.

      This is a good starter.
    28. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by abigor · · Score: 1

      I believe Windows NT was introduced in 1993, so your statement is incorrect.

    29. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem I had last time with linux is that it didn't "just work". Windows "just works" and the two times I have had a problem in 12 years of windows usage, I called up- paid my $35 and Microsoft fixed it (heroically in one case- they had 5 engineers including a couple senior ones on the call last time - spent several hours).
      I question how much experience you've had with Linux, or with setting up Windows in network environments. I basic workgroup config for Samba is no worse than Windows, particularly with modern tools. Things "just work" in both cases. Let's keep in mind here, as well, that Windows and IBM have created a filesharing paradigm that creates a considerable amount of complexity and overhead.

      Where all of this falls down, whether Samba on *nix or Windows, is when you need to do nontrivial things. Setting up a decent, functioning network under Active Directory can be many things, but it certainly does not "just work". But my single biggest complaint against Microsoft is when those things that "just work" suddenly don't. Then you're stuck dealing with the complexities of group policies and in many cases the registry, and that's when I really pine for a system that I can open up a text editor and look through the conf files.
      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    30. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by wanderingknight · · Score: 1

      For video, you can still use VLC of course No offense, but VLC is utter crap if you ever want decent softsubs support. I recommend the mplayer/Kaffeine method much more.
    31. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Moflamby-2042 · · Score: 1

      I can address a few of these, but am unqualified to answer about the 2-D vector graphics Cairo library or GDC.

      a) Remoting a Linux distro (X server) is not difficult. You can use vncserver through an ssh tunnel or pop whatever graphical application to your screen from a remote server. E.g. you can ssh -X into a machine, run vncserver on it (would advise use of -localhost and -nolisten tcp and set color-depth/resolution ..). This isn't restricted to certain Linux distros, unlike Windows' remote desktop. You can also use rdesktop to view remote Windows machines I think (haven't used).
      b) 'borrowed' and 'looted' are "IP" concepts not indicative of quality. Restricting key methods from mass adoption holds back progress for everybody. Plus, keep in mind that Microsoft wouldn't even exist today without first cloning CP/M, or done as well if they hadn't later copied Xerox's GUI, and aquired as they went along.
      c) (me unqualified to answer)
      d) (me unqualified to answer): it probably could be organized better but I haven't encountered mega-difficulty in programming on this from in Linux, using OpenGL, GTK, SDL and some other components... (?)
      e) MS holds a monopoly position which attract more vendors. This doesn't imply the API and library is better or worse (as witnessed by your preference as well)
      f) 1995 was quite a few years back, things have improved tremendously since then. The Linux kernel was only 4 years old at the time too.
      g) Once you try a package manager that eliminates installation, dependency, upgrade annoyances, I think it extremely unlikely to still favor older-style Windows install and update methods.

      Various distros of Linux (and Linux) are progressing at a phenomenal rate since they've already "got typing" worldwide, whereas the enormous benefit of being a monopoly dissipates over time unless there come along some major reasons to stick with it.

    32. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      What you are saying can be said of essentially everything...

    33. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the start bar as in Arthur/RISC OS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riscos

    34. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by init100 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, Windows Explorer just randomly locks files, preventing you from moving, removing, renaming (those I know for sure) and even copying the file (this I'm not completely certain about). This is extremely irritating. Especially since when it is moving a whole tree of files and one file is locked, it just aborts the move instead of doing what it can and leaving the locked file. And when you try to rename a file, it only checks to see if it is locked after you have typed in the possibly lengthy name, reverting the name to the old one in the process.

      Since I can do all these things in *nix, I feel handicapped when I run into the stupidity of the file locking behavior in Windows.

    35. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you or anyone else name me just one GPS multi-point route mapping solution, a la Microsoft Streets and Trips, that runs natively on Linux? Please do and I'll switch tomorrow. Seriously. Running S&T in Virtual Box doesn't cut it. Even with a core duo and 2 gigs of ram.

    36. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by AncientPC · · Score: 1

      a) but linux has ssh, which is far easier than having to remote desktop in to do most tasks. Forcing users to run a full GUI to copy a file is terrible design. SSH is great but it's available for Windows. There no Remote Desktop equivalent for Linux in terms of accessibility and usability. VNC lags, terminal isn't the ideal solution either.

      f) it is now 2007, and linux is far ahead of windows in hardware discovery, and with a few exceptions doesn't even require you to install drivers (now where's the win98 driver floppy for my printer?). Google it? At the consumer level I don't think you can argue that Linux is ahead of Windows in terms of hardware discovery.

      / posting from a Dell laptop running Ubuntu with hibernate/suspend issues, random freezes, and non-functioning media keys.
    37. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by dwandy · · Score: 1

      The only really ligitimate use of that "feature" is to hide what your program is doing, which a ligitmate process shouldn't need to do anyway.
      How about making temp files actually be temporary?
      Create a file, open it, delete it and work with it to the end of your session. When you close the file, it's gone. Perfect temp file.
      As opposed to Windows Temp files that hang around forever because they failed to get deleted at the end of their usage (possibly because windows still had it listed as in use). And no ordinary user dares delete files in /temp 'cause, errm, is it still in use by something?
      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    38. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by init100 · · Score: 1

      You just undid all the goodwill that the previous, very informative reply might have generated.

      I doubt that, at least if he is smart enough to understand that there are dicks in every community. If you receive a hostile reply, you just ignore it instead of thinking that the poster is representative of the whole community.

    39. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by illumina+us · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take a change of OS to keep your PC clean of AdWare and Spyware. My WinXP install was up and running for 3 years and had no viri, no spyware, no adware, etc. In fact the only issues it did have were cookies which were known as used for tracking purposes across sites and even those would be prevalent across ANY OS (unless you have cookies disabled on your browser).

      And saying that gaming is a weak argument is just silly. What do you think drives the industry? Do you really think we need more and more power so we can make spreadsheets or browse the web faster? You honestly think the PC enthusiast builds a top of the line rig in order to do something the average Joe does? Hell, it's doubtful the PC enthusiast will run anything other than next-gen game in order to bring his rig to its knees.

      Oh well, can't change a zealot's mind though.

      --
      -illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
    40. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by init100 · · Score: 1

      it's pretty unhelpful when the community is rude and condescending.

      The community isn't rude and condescending, a few vocal individuals are. Some people enjoy telling people that they are "n00bs" and that they should just RTFM. They are individuals, and their stance is not indicative of the stance of the whole community.

    41. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and the "Access" clone is terrible.

      So you're saying they cloned Access perfectly?

    42. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by init100 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention X has allowed you for ages to have multiple desktops, something that was only possible with third party apps for a long time in Windows.

      Isn't it still? I haven't heard that Vista can have several virtual desktops, unless you are thinking of the Microsoft powertool.

      Not to mention I do not need to spend hours installing extra software since most of what I need is installed when I install the OS, including IM clients, web browsers (not owned by MS), office applications, etc.

      And even if you have to install them with Yum, there is the handy groupinstall command (there is a GUI way of doing this) where you can install package groups like "Office & Productivity", "Development Tools" "Development Libraries", etc. Those groups contain most or all you need in each respective category.

    43. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by SiChemist · · Score: 1

      I like the NX based systems for remote desktop on Linux (I use freenx). Plus, the client runs on Windows, Linux and Mac OS X.

    44. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by theatrecade · · Score: 1

      I want to be able to view video (I use videolan so it that will be a no brainer). I want a p2p application that works well (I use azureus- so no brainer tho I hear there is better). I want an easy to use graphics editor (Gimp isn't cutting it). I want an easy to use video editor (???) I want an easy to use office suite (Openoffice has come a long way-- not quite there yet but 99.9%-- i think as of release 2.4 it will be where i require it) I want an easy to use sound editor (Audacity is super-- and on linux too so good there) I want usb drives and a color laser printer that works. it seems like you've already migrated from microsoft for the most part. as far as video editor get main actor. and i have yet to have a usb drive or color laser not work when i connected to my box. Don't forget for all those programs you "paid" for you can use wine (or cedega) to run them in linux.
      --
      some people are a "glass half empty" some are "glass half full" i'm a "there is something in the glass be happy" person
    45. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, if you have over a 10% negative response rate, the result is generally bad. Les Gibson in "How to be People Smart" says you will be perceived as a negative person that people do not want to deal with or be friends with if you are negative more than 10% of the time. People generally like to be around people that are pleasant and agree with them. You have to build up a bit of positive credit before you can let loose with a "No."

      It takes a lot of positive, supportive words and deeds to guide people to do things. Most people collapse very easily in the face of any challenge, negativity, or rudeness. They are typically very brittle about it too- they think and act like they are completely committed but after 10-20 minutes of seriously struggling with something they are done and want to quit and never deal with it again.

      While you may relentlessly attack Linux issues, how well do you handle a single social rejection? A single rude comment by a new group of friends? Perhaps a single failure at trying a new activity like dancing or wood-carving. Learning slow dancing was one of the hardest things I've ever done emotionally- Linux doesn't even compare.

      Similarly, a person who is trying out Linux can be turned away by a single negative response. Linux is not their passion. They are just mildly interested in it and a surprisingly small amount of rudeness can drive them away.

      And there you have Windows, all cuddly and friendly (and Mac- even MORE cuddly and friendly) waiting with open arms for them.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    46. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Display postscript was available on NeXT back in '88 and later utilized by SGI and IBM.

      By no means was this concept unique to the minds at Microsoft.

    47. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I have plenty of experience in Windows (and DOS before that back to "Rise of the Triad").

      For the last three or four years, setting it up consists of plugging in the cable in the back, right clicking on the machine and saying what to share.
      For the other machines, I have to know to click on the network icon and browse local computers. Otherwise everything is wonderful networky goodness.

      I do not have to deal with Active directory. I agree that the professional business environments for both are non-trivial and would not be as simple to set up (and may be roughly the same difficulty to set up).

      I'm only talking about a small home network set up. I haven't had a windows network issue in my home environment for years.

      I want to be able to easily take my linux box-- plug it into the switch-- and then we can play games or swap files. I'm sure by 2010 I will be on Linux. I'm actively going to O/S agnostic applications and have been for a few years now. There will be almost no change in my user experience the day I swap out the O/S. I forgot to mention firefox above i think but one of the main reasons I use it is that it's on linux.

      My software stack is almost all OS agnostic- except Corel Draw and Corel Photo Paint.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    48. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by DrScotsman · · Score: 1

      f) it is now 2007, and linux is far ahead of windows in hardware discovery, and with a few exceptions doesn't even require you to install drivers (now where's the win98 driver floppy for my printer?).

      Your FUD is several years out of date. Please try a modern linux distro and come back with some valid complaints.

      The irony is just immense. Please try a modern Windows install (I don't even mean Vista) and come back with some valid retorts.

    49. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by tjstork · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not only does remotely using X offer far more flexibility then RDP

      Where then, in SUSE Linux 10, can I just click on an icon, enter a computer name, and remote desktop in?

      Ah, but the glory is we are not limited to those two interfaces.... Not to mention X has allowed you for ages to have multiple desktops, something that was only possible with third party apps for a long time in Windows

      Architecturally, Windows has allowed for multiple Window stations and multiple OS personalities since Windows NT. Microsoft never implemented them. Third party developers have. And I wouldn't hold it against MS for buying Citrix technology any more than I would hold it against KDE guys for working with Apple on some things.

      This is just a poor argument. Tell me how many issues you've had in 2007?

      Actually, in 2007, as I said, Linux has closed the gap. Neither Suse Linux 10 or Windows Server 2003 automatically installed the appropriate driver for my nVidia 6200 AGP on my dual Opteron. On the other hand, Linux utterly fails with my DVD drive, but Windows just plays them. Please don't lecture me about codecs and licensing...at the end of the day, Microsoft pays for it, and Linux writers don't, and I can watch movies on Windows and not on Linux. However, I don't really like to watch movies on my computer, so, for 90% of what I do, Linux is good for me.

      And don't even get me started on sound. What sound API should a developer write for these days on Linux, and, does any Linux sound API support hardware accelerated MIDI playback on sound cards, support for sound fonts, and all that other stuff? With Windows, I know there is a layered solution, starting with PlaySound for quick and dirty stuff, then the MCI API for some studio type of stuff, then, there's the lower level mm API for MIDI, and finally DirectX for all sorts of audio playback. With Linux sound, it seems like I fly right into the teeth of KDE vs GNOME and I just lose all hope.

      Okay. Visual Studio is great if you are building for Windows. How well can you build on other platforms? Not at all. Go figure. KDevelop is actually fairly good and offers most the items that the average developer will probably ever use

      Portability is a religion that not all customers care about. If you are delivering a solution, you are delivering the total package of hardware, OS and language choice. Changing one out would be like asking Ford and GM to make interchangable V8s - a nifty techno trick, but really not all that useful in the real world. To that end, I think Linux does have a lot to offer that Windows doesn't. Off the top of my head, I prefer how Linux mmap works over Windows VirtualAlloc, Linux sockets to Windows sockets, and certainly how the Linux file system works - Windows locking files because they are open is just absurd. But on the other hand I think Windows threading offers more power than Linux threading does. There's a kernel native threadpool, support for the concept of a collection of jobs, and, yeah, I really do like MsgWaitForMultipleObjects.

      KDevelop is, I think, better for C++ development than Visual Studio. There are some exceptions - looking at registers in KDevelop is utterly annoying. However, if you haven't done anything serious with Windows Forms in C# in Visual Studio 2005, then you have no idea what you are missing. The intellisense is absolutely godlike compared to KDE or Eclipse. Debugging works really well - the whole "Quickwatch" thing is nice. And finally the refactoring tools are simply rock solid.

      As for Office, I must laugh. First, word processing of 2000 compared to either Abiword or OOo is equivalent in all regards
      Word feels better. It just does. That matters. Featurewise, OOo is pretty close, as I said, but Word feels better. And besides, 2000 is 7 years ago. Word XP/2003 or whatever the version is before the current release blows OOo out of the water. Still, none feel as good as my old favorite, Lotus WordPro (formerly Samna Ami

      --
      This is my sig.
    50. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by epedersen · · Score: 1

      > First, word processing of 2000 compared to either Abiword or OOo is equivalent in all regards. I see no advantage to either, > except for the fact that both Abiword and OOo will still be supported long after 2000 is not.

      Except OOo Doesn't have some features like Grammar Check, you may have perfect grammar, but I like having a check. (I still use OOo Many times.)

    51. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by cstdenis · · Score: 0

      Windows does support truly temporary files -- its just an under used feature by bad programmers. In fact there are 2 types of them. Mode T and D.

      T - Specifies a file as temporary. If possible, it is not flushed to disk.
      D - Specifies a file as temporary. It is deleted when the last file pointer is closed.

      Don't blame windows for bad programmers.

      --
      1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
    52. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you even looked at Eclipse? Its multi-platform and working like a native app on many platforms.

      Access was a horrible program to begin wit... any clone of that crap is not going to be any better!

    53. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      Where then, in SUSE Linux 10, can I just click on an icon, enter a computer name, and remote desktop in?
      No idea but in Ubuntu its System -> Preferences -> Remote Desktop
    54. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      done that, put windows XP on an extra disk in my xeon workstation. man oh man, the number of cycles of installing manufacturers drivers disks and rebooting I had to go through, sometimes windows would ask for the same disk again after reboot. If you're trying to say this is somehow superior to loading Linux modules, you're completely full of shit. Windows is crap, the install now takes longer than an Ubuntu or Debian install.

    55. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. That was a bad choice of words on my part. I should have said "it's pretty unhelpful when some members of the community are rude and condescending."

    56. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. They are locked for a reason. Perhaps its our AV software? Either way, its not random. FWIW, Vista allows you the option to Skip the file in question, which I agree is something that should have happened a long time ago.

      I don't think its a smart idea though to allow files in use to be deleted. It likely means there's some problem that needs to be corrected.

    57. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

      I think your statement about "Your FUD is several years out of date" applies perfectly to

      "From it's inception, directX was considered inferiour to openGL by all of the big gaming houses. DirectX's popularity is a product of marketing."

      That was true in the times of DX6 and DX7. Now DX9 is superior to OpenGL.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    58. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by defaria · · Score: 1

      Try to run something that uses 100% CPU and then try to do anything else while that happens. What a great scheduler...
      I do so regularly. Ever hear of priority queues? Use 'em!

      Also, try to fill up your RAM. Kind of hard, isn't it? Windows doesn't seem to think you have as much RAM as you do and starts to swap far too early to be considered useful. This is why people complain about Firefox using $x amount of RAM; No people complain about Firefox's usage of RAM because it uses a lot of it. Most making the complaint don't even know what swapping is!

      Windows starts to swap way too early and causes slowdowns all around.

      Try to delete a file that's in use (something you can do in any Unix-like system). File in use? Whoops, can't do that.
      That may be a good thing!

      Also, Windows has jack shit support for more filesystems than their own FAT and NTFS families (both of which get fragmented; modern filesystems prevent that on the fly). Sure, you can get more support via plugins (I believe there are two different ways to make a filesystem plugin for Windows: kernel and shell), but that isn't as reliable as having native support for them. Windows should at least support FFS (fast filesystem, the UNIX/BSD file system of choice for a few decades). Just about all systems support their own file systems and usually not much more than that. Why should Windows support FFS? Just because it's a Unix file system? Solaris should support NTFS and FAT? So should HP-UX or AIX. They don't either. So you're point makes no sense.
    59. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by overlordmead · · Score: 1

      I prefer xvncviewer... Suse 10 must suck.

      --
      Think Gnole-ish, not prole-ish
    60. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay. Visual Studio is great if you are building for Windows. How well can you build on other platforms? Not at all. Go figure. KDevelop is actually fairly good and offers most the items that the average developer will probably ever use. Of course, I still prefer writing makefiles and source by hand. I've never been a huge fan of IDEs I used VS for 4 years on a multiplatform project (C/C++). In no way did using VS hinder the other platforms. We built a Solution/project -> makefile converter (since it is 10x easier to specify dependencies in VS than editing makefiles). Later we incorporated Ant and made that the driver for our main build (I have heard that this is no longer required as VS2005 makes it easy to use Ant). We built on Linux, Solaris, and Windows without any problems, and apparently at one point before I was there, BSD, and VMS. Today I use Eclipse, and it is a very nice tool, but man I miss Visual Studio, its the best product MS has ever made.
    61. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > And I wouldn't hold it against MS for buying Citrix technology

      Well they didn't actually _buy_ it. Citrix, which had previously built multiuser versions of OS/2 had a source code license for NT to use in building their product. When NT 4 came out Citrix asked for the source as per their license and were told that it didn't cover NT 4 and they wouldn't get anything unless they 'gave' MS licenses for all their stuff.

    62. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by quux4 · · Score: 1

      Try to run something that uses 100% CPU and then try to do anything else while that happens. What a great scheduler...

      Works fine here. In basic concept, Windows' scheduler (priority values) isn't so different from the Linux scheduler (nice values). Obviously any system starts to bog when it has a high Load Average (Linux) or CPU Queue Length (Windows).

      Also, try to fill up your RAM. Kind of hard, isn't it? Windows doesn't seem to think you have as much RAM as you do and starts to swap far too early to be considered useful. This is why people complain about Firefox using $x amount of RAM; Windows starts to swap way too early and causes slowdowns all around.

      This comment shows an almost total lack of understanding of the Windows memory model. See any of the Inside Windows or Windows Internals books by Russinovich and Solomon for definitive reference; for a shorter slam-bang course, have a look at this Understanding Virtual Memory article. Pay close attention to the concept of the backing store. I took a quick look at an XP system with 2GB of RAM: 92% of memory in use. And a Vista system with 1GB RAM: 100% memory in use.

      Try to delete a file that's in use (something you can do in any Unix-like system). File in use? Whoops, can't do that.

      Agreed; this sucks. You can mitigate somewhat with utilities like MoveFile or Process Explorer, but again, I agree. Tracking down the process that locked your file, or scheduling a reboot for the rename or delete operation, is a little too baroque for my taste!

      Also, Windows has jack shit support for more filesystems than their own FAT and NTFS families (both of which get fragmented; modern filesystems prevent that on the fly). Sure, you can get more support via plugins (I believe there are two different ways to make a filesystem plugin for Windows: kernel and shell), but that isn't as reliable as having native support for them.

      You've noted that plugins exist. Which is how most new filesystem support for Linux originally evolved - either you had to manually compile it into the kernel (until Linus decided to just do that for you) or run a FUSE FS. MS doesn't build {otherFS} support into any Windows 'distro', but that's the only step missing. If you want {otherFS} support in Windows, you find or write it, then install that to your system. With IFS builtin, this can be just as reliable as native. In fact, NTFS/FAT are loaded via IFS. So if your {otherFS} via IFS is less reliable, that's on the {otherFS} coders, not MS.

    63. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by quux4 · · Score: 1

      Awesome response. I hope more people mod this up.

      Negativity sucks.
    64. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arthur/RISC OS: "Arthur is an early graphical user interface (GUI) operating system (OS) that was used on Acorn ARM-cpu-based computers from about 1987 until the much-superior RISC OS 2 was completed and made available in April 1989." (Wikipedia). Arthur had a task bar at the bottom. The desktop was written in BASIC, using software interrupts to communicate with modules that did the actual WIMP handling.

      See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Acor nArthur110desktopsmall.png

    65. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      How many Linux systems go beyond FAT and ext2/3? Not many I'd image.
      Suse10.2 allows you to choose between ext2, ext3, reiser, xfs, fat16, fat32, veritas-alike-whose-name-I-forget. If you install it, you can also do squashfs and cramfs. You can also mount in read-only mode iso9660/joliet and udf images, macintosh hsfplus, ntfs. If you want network it will do novell-ncp, andrew, coda, plan 9, samba/cifs, nfs; there's even user-space filesystems that do stuff over ftp...
      And doubtless there are others because you can recompile your kernel, they're just not included due to license issues.
      So, Windows rules, huh?

    66. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by madcow_bg · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. They are locked for a reason. Perhaps its our AV software? Either way, its not random. FWIW, Vista allows you the option to Skip the file in question, which I agree is something that should have happened a long time ago.

      I don't think its a smart idea though to allow files in use to be deleted. It likely means there's some problem that needs to be corrected.


      No, this is indeed the worst feature in windows, and it has been there from the dark ages of windows 3.1 - the extension of DOS, which is after all a single user OS and has no need for concurent file deletion (or is deemed unnecessary, that is). And this is hitting hard sometimes. For example, I am extending a BSD licensed library (CLucene) and in the internal workings there are several hacks to ignore the problem with undeletable files. You split the database in segments. If you want to merge two segments, you have to create a new one and delete the old ones. But if you're reading from the old segments (a valid operation, because we don't want to interrupt the operation of the user during updates!) they cannot be deleted. Therefore they are written in a .del file, and deleted when the last reader is closed. This of course can lead to severe lack of disk space, because the database is about 1GB. In Linux of course there is no such problem.


      Another example, I reinstalled a Vista computer with a recovery DVD yesterday. The system restarted about 10 times!!! Automatically, that is. Why? Because. Because updates and installations cannot be completed without reboot. Because you cannot replace system files in a running system. Security? Bull-shit. After all, a restart does the job fine. Just a limitation from the dark ages of computing.


      And please, don't tell me that "You have moved your mouse. Please restart your computer for the changes to take effect..." is the future of computing. When I install slackware with two boots, and the second is because I want to remove the boot CD from the drive!

    67. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by quux4 · · Score: 1

      There are a few ways to attack this, but the most common is always going to be security and honestly, the biggest flaw for Windows (and most apps that use it) are the requirement for Administrator access for users.

      Except that's not true; it never really was. I have been running Windows and all my daily use applications as nonadmin since the mid-90's on NT4. I also ran as nonadmin on Windows 2000 and XP; now I run as nonadmin on Vista. Granted, it hasn't always been as easy as falling off a log, since some apps are poorly written and tested, not following the MS guidelines which were there all along. Those guidelines are/were easy to summarize:

      1) Apps should install to Program Files (Admin privs needed for install).
      2) once the app is installed, it should do file writes to the current user's Documents and Settings directory only; not to Program Files
      3) During normal program use, registry writes to the HKEY_CURRENT_USER hive (not HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE).

      Some programs (and not as many of them as you might think) broke these guidelines. The easy way to solve the problem was to just run as Admin; the harder way was to break out your copies of FileMon and RegMon, find out which specific folders/regkeys the program was writing to in violation of guideline, and fix the permissions. Yes this is geeky and painful, but once you've done it a few times, it gets easy, and rarely takes more than 20 minutes per program. Whenever I did it, I'd take a few more minutes to document the permissions changes I had to make, and send these off to the program's authors along with a copy of the guidelines. This accomplished two things for me: first I'd have some documentation of the issue in case I needed to do it for someone else, and there was a (slim) chance the coders would fix it in their next revision.

      The root of all this traces back to a fairly simple and stupid thing. NT4 Workstation didn't sell that well. Users graduating to NT4 from the Win9x series found that a secure OS was very painful! So some bright bulb over at MS implemented a quick fix in Windows 2000: during installation (and only during installation) any new user you created would automtatically be made a member of the Administrators group. Worse, this happened without any sort of notification to the user. He never knew he'd just bypassed all security features of the OS. So, a lot of coding and testing took place in the Administrator context - bypassing all security. Those programs now depended on having Admin privs. Then more and more people went to 'always on' internet connections while running as Admin all the time, and Windows' reputation as an insecure platform was inevitable.

      Vista attempts to make up for all this lost ground with several tricks, but really the big one is UAC. The point of UAC is simply to make it easier for people to run nonadmin all the time, only elevating privs when they have to. Sadly, the bad habit of invisibly making Admins out of all users created during installation has still not been kicked, but I have my hopes up for Seven. (sigh)

    68. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you seriously can't figure out why you can't do something to a file, try using "Process Explorer" (www.sysinternals.com). Then do a handle search for the file and it will tell you what is using it and preventing you from erasing it. This program will also allow you to manually close that handle if it can't be otherwise closed, whether the other program wants you to or not.

      Incidentally, most of the things you talk about as "Features" in Linux that Windows "can't do", Linux can't either. It isn't actually deleting open files - it just makes it look like it is. It isn't actually replacing running system files in a running system without stopping them - it has to *at least* stop them to replace them.

      Also, I don't believe your claim that Vista rebooted 10 times for updates or installation. Anyone who has installed Vista will also know your claim "When I install slackware with two boots, and the second is because I want to remove the boot CD from the drive!" is equally valid for Vista. I have installed Vista dozens of times, and every one of them has been unattended after the installation began. It's really not that hard.

    69. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      On the other hand, C++ for Linux has I think pulled ahead of what MS offers, but only really because MS is standing still in C++. If they got pissed off enough, they'd throw a billion dollars into the language and crush us.

      How many bucks did u receive from M$haft to write this comment, dude? Are you unaware that GCC is treated as a standard by every of those who has access to it? And even if the M$ put billions, it GCC has got a high enough position in people's mind (in fact, in heart as well) to be replaced by anything. Just to enlighten you, how many fucking billions has M$ put for "zune" and how much they are selling and how much they are to sell in future?! Well, it is certainly ridiculous even to think that zune is going to crush iPod. And C#, well, don't you think its counterpart JAVA is in leading role and far from being crushed?! Wake up dude...time has changed and those billions are not the only thing by which fate of computer world is going to be decided.

    70. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by vuffi_raa · · Score: 1

      From it's inception, directX was considered inferiour to openGL by all of the big gaming houses. DirectX's popularity is a product of marketing. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_ and_Direct3D for some background). sorry- directX is far superior to open GL- open gl does 3d great- but audio and video editors and sequencers run on directx as well (and incredibly well I might add- have you ever used ableton live?)- directX is a multimedia platform and not a game platform- games just use the platform
    71. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by vuffi_raa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      that is the biggest problem with the linux community- there are a lot of snob coders that aren't interested in the multimedia/graphics/audio/video/3d_development side of computing and put it down all of the time. That is what keeps me from switching (and trust me I would love to if it was realistic) but there is no way that I could do in multimedia/graphics/audio/video/3d (hell I can't even on a mac with as little software and hardware support) that I can in windows, though vista can't do a lot of it either so there goes that- I guess my xp system will end up like my atari st and amiga were- holding on for as long as they can until the world realizes what it left behind.

    72. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by ibentmywookie · · Score: 1

      What I was talking about though, was that a DC in Windows is device independent. So, in Windows you can have the same set of code for printing as you do for display rendering. I think that's pretty nifty.

      Since nobody else has mentioned it, I will mention that Quartz also has that ability. Not only that, but it's like one method call to have a view render to a PDF file instead of the screen.

      Oh yeah, and the Cocoa API doesn't make good programmers cry, like MFC.

      --
      -- The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nose bleeds if I just kept my finger out of there!
    73. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 1

      "SSH is great but it's available for Windows. There no Remote Desktop equivalent for Linux in terms of accessibility and usability. VNC lags, terminal isn't the ideal solution either."

      "available for" and "installed by default and easily enabled" are entirely different things. I have tried many methods of running an ssh server in windows XP, and it is painful no matter which method you use.

      As another reply states, the NoMachine remote desktop solution is an excellent remote desktop solution. It is basically compressed/optimised X11, and it is much faster than bitmap-based windows Remote Desktop. (I am aware that there is some new version of RDP that addresses at least some of the performance/latency problems, but I haven't used it yet).

      "Google it? At the consumer level I don't think you can argue that Linux is ahead of Windows in terms of hardware discovery."

      Googling for a driver is not user-friendly; my statement about linux having already autodetected the hardware and enabled it *without user intervention* still stands.

      / posting from an Acer laptop running ubuntu without hibernate/suspend issues, without random freezes, and with functioning multimedia keys.

    74. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by Snaller · · Score: 1

      "This sort of comment is exactly what he's complaining about, and a very good reason for someone without an extensive *x bacground to avoid desktop Linux. You just undid all the goodwill that the previous, very informative reply might have generated."

      You are right about goodwill or badwill. A big reason I'm not going to firefox is I've been at the receiving end of too many offensive religious zealots who think i must use it or be an idiot. Now I get annoyed just thinking about Firefox.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    75. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by redcane · · Score: 1

      I think your taking the right approach by focusing on OS agnostic applications. I found all my needs were easily satisfied by linux when I found myself not playing so many games any more. I do believe, as far as "plugging the cable in the back, and right click to say what to share", there are distros that do this now. I believe KDE even has a built in file sharing mechanism now (although it may only work with other KDE machines?). Luckily I've never been terribly artistic, so I really don't have a need for Photo Paint and so on.

    76. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by madcow_bg · · Score: 1

      If you seriously can't figure out why you can't do something to a file, try using "Process Explorer" (www.sysinternals.com). Then do a handle search for the file and it will tell you what is using it and preventing you from erasing it. This program will also allow you to manually close that handle if it can't be otherwise closed, whether the other program wants you to or not.
      Thanks for the information. I'd use that program.

      Incidentally, most of the things you talk about as "Features" in Linux that Windows "can't do", Linux can't either. It isn't actually deleting open files - it just makes it look like it is. It isn't actually replacing running system files in a running system without stopping them - it has to *at least* stop them to replace them.
      First of all, if files cannot be opened, and even more, they can be replaced with new ones, I think that is deletion. You remain with handles which when closed the place taken will be reclaimed. Some programs actually used that to create temporary files. Anyway, I believe it is better than having some stupid file block the filesystem's operations, and in a normal OS install (without additions) you cannot unblock them, even as admin.
      Of course you need to restart a program to update the binary (and libraries) in the memory. But you don't need to restart the whole system, which is kind of the whole point.

      Also, I don't believe your claim that Vista rebooted 10 times for updates or installation. Anyone who has installed Vista will also know your claim "When I install slackware with two boots, and the second is because I want to remove the boot CD from the drive!" is equally valid for Vista. I have installed Vista dozens of times, and every one of them has been unattended after the installation began. It's really not that hard. Look, with normal installs I also restart Vista no more than four times, counting the ones for the additional software installation (which is more than on Linux), because I know what's going on and when I have problems I'll fix it as usual (reinstall the conflicting packages). But this particular factory restore DVD restarted the computer 10 times. Some kind of Toshiba laptop I think. I know they did it to be sure that updates do not mess with each other, which happens exactly because of the filesystem limitation. There were 10 restarts, some for fairly trivial thing such as video driver installations.
    77. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Honestly, if you play that many games you can always dual boot or just stick with Windows. The gaming argument is weak at best.
      Unfortunately, I think you've just proved that the gaming argument is extremely strong.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    78. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      No, this is indeed the worst feature in windows, and it has been there from the dark ages of windows 3.1 - the extension of DOS, which is after all a single user OS and has no need for concurent file deletion (or is deemed unnecessary, that is). And this is hitting hard sometimes. For example, I am extending a BSD licensed library (CLucene) and in the internal workings there are several hacks to ignore the problem with undeletable files. You split the database in segments. If you want to merge two segments, you have to create a new one and delete the old ones. But if you're reading from the old segments (a valid operation, because we don't want to interrupt the operation of the user during updates!) they cannot be deleted. Therefore they are written in a .del file, and deleted when the last reader is closed. This of course can lead to severe lack of disk space, because the database is about 1GB. In Linux of course there is no such problem.

      So basically your problem is that you designed your application with invalid assumptions about the environment? Also, I don't buy you're "running out of disk space" argument. Will Linux allow blocks of a deleted by still in use file to be overwritten? I would hope not, or your program is in trouble. If it doesn't, then you'll hit the same space requirements whether you've actually deleted the file or not.

      Another example, I reinstalled a Vista computer with a recovery DVD yesterday. The system restarted about 10 times!!! Automatically, that is. Why? Because. Because updates and installations cannot be completed without reboot. Because you cannot replace system files in a running system. Security? Bull-shit. After all, a restart does the job fine. Just a limitation from the dark ages of computing.

      Bullshit. I've done this, it restarts once. If you include third party apps, that's the third party apps misbehaving. They're actually doing what you are; assuming one thing about your environment while said enviroment doesn't actually work that way. Many installers insist you reboot when its not necessary at all, or they don't correctly stop running programs before attempting to update the files.

      And please, don't tell me that "You have moved your mouse. Please restart your computer for the changes to take effect..." is the future of computing. When I install slackware with two boots, and the second is because I want to remove the boot CD from the drive!

      Your view of reality is skewed; rebooting on Windows has been becoming less and less common, not more and more.

    79. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jesboat · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the description of NT's original design and of its architecture. Both were originally quite elegant.

      (Of course, Microsoft did fuck up the implementation, and compromised the design more and more in each successive release.)

    80. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jesboat · · Score: 1

      Not only does remotely using X offer far more flexibility then RDP

      flexibility != ease of use

      I believe it is a better bandwidth user then RDP.

      Anecdotal evidence disagrees with you.

      It should be noted we shouldn't praise MS for RDP either, their original TS implementation sucked. Citrix licensed their stuff off to MS so MS could make a better product. Look at old TS and compare it with Citrix of that time period, you will see who was the leader.

      Straw man.

      This is just a poor argument. Tell me how many issues you've had in 2007? I will also say that there is better legacy support in Linux then Windows. I can still find devices that won't install drivers from the base Windows install but can in Linux, even if only well enough for me to get drivers that work well. The gap is practically closed with the largest problem being the quality of some video drivers.

      And, of course, newly released hardware. And specialty hardware.

      (Incidentally, I've had three problems, and how many problems both or either of us have had is irrelevant.)

      Really? Use apt-get or one of the various front-ends available or yum and then tell me this. Both of these do great at handling dependencies and make installations rather painless.

      Only for software which is freely available in the repository. There's no sane way for users to install other software.

    81. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by thebdj · · Score: 1
      Slow to respond I know...

      flexibility != ease of use You accuse me of a straw man argument, but then choose a set of like 10 words that isn't even a complete sentence (Hell, the sentence stands without the phrase.). Thank you for ignoring one part of my attack, choosing a single, semi-related point and beating on it. Oh wait, that IS a straw man!

      Anecdotal evidence disagrees with you. Really, because the anecdotal evidence I've heard from people seems to agree with me. My own experience seems to agree with me as well. And this was testing both X and RDP on an internal network where load was consistent for both platforms. Not to mention you can greatly reduce the X load by using single Windows instead of creating a whole desktop. Goes back to my mentioning of flexibility. It gives the appearance of better integration then RDP ever has.

      Straw man. His whole argument was praise for MS. I was stating praise for MS is unfounded with regards to RDP since the best work on it was never even done by them. However, it is nice of you to yell this why making some straw men yourself.

      And, of course, newly released hardware. And specialty hardware. (Incidentally, I've had three problems, and how many problems both or either of us have had is irrelevant.) I had zero problem with my very new desktop and the hardware for it. Also, since the only evidence anyone is presenting is anecdotal, it is quite important how many problems you or him may or may not have had. His argument was poor in presenting problems from the 1990s and ignoring the current state of the situation. Tell me, which problem(s) have you had? And what is your definition of "specialty" hardware?

      Only for software which is freely available in the repository. There's no sane way for users to install other software. Except that this isn't truly the case. There are package management systems that with take random .dem and .rpm files and properly install them. Most websites containing these softwares offer separate repositories if the distributions do not include their software in them. I would challenge that installing most rpm and deb packages is no hardware on their respective distributions then installing some .exe. There are still programs in Windows that will have prerequisites that are required for a program to be installed. I really do not see (nor have I seen) this great disparity that you speak of.
      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    82. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jesboat · · Score: 1

      You accuse me of a straw man argument, but then choose a set of like 10 words that isn't even a complete sentence (Hell, the sentence stands without the phrase.). Thank you for ignoring one part of my attack, choosing a single, semi-related point and beating on it. Oh wait, that IS a straw man!

      Quoth Wikipedia, "To 'set up a straw man' or 'set up a straw man argument' is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent." I was criticizing your argument because you discuss flexibility of RDP when the person to which you originally replied spoke of ease of use and not of flexibility. My statement, whether phrased as an inequality or a sentence, was not a straw man.

      Really, because the anecdotal evidence I've heard from people seems to agree with me. My own experience seems to agree with me as well. And this was testing both X and RDP on an internal network where load was consistent for both platforms. Not to mention you can greatly reduce the X load by using single Windows instead of creating a whole desktop. Goes back to my mentioning of flexibility. It gives the appearance of better integration then RDP ever has.

      So you find RDP more efficient. I don't see how that contradicts my claim that people around me tend to find the opposite.

      His whole argument was praise for MS. I was stating praise for MS is unfounded with regards to RDP since the best work on it was never even done by them.

      How is this relevant?

      However, it is nice of you to yell this why making some straw men yourself.

      However, it is nice of you to not make sense while criticizing me for using non-sentences. (Where did I yell?)

      I had zero problem with my very new desktop and the hardware for it. Also, since the only evidence anyone is presenting is anecdotal, it is quite important how many problems you or him may or may not have had. His argument was poor in presenting problems from the 1990s and ignoring the current state of the situation. Tell me, which problem(s) have you had? And what is your definition of "specialty" hardware?

      Specialty hardware: hardware which would be used by a small fraction of computer users. Like rare webcams or odd MIDI interfaces.

      New hardware: for example, recently released wireless chipsets.

      As for exactly what problems I've had in 2007, I stand by what I said earlier: "how many problems both or either of us have had is irrelevant."

      Except that this isn't truly the case. There are package management systems that with take random .dem and .rpm files and properly install them. Most websites containing these softwares offer separate repositories if the distributions do not include their software in them. I would challenge that installing most rpm and deb packages is no hardware on their respective distributions then installing some .exe. There are still programs in Windows that will have prerequisites that are required for a program to be installed.

      Please take my argument in context: I was addressing specifically "apt-get or one of the various front-ends available or yum".

      I can't speak in detail about yum because I haven't used any rpm-based distributions in years. APT, however, does not install random .debs. dpkg itself will install arbitrary .debs, but then you don't get all the benefits of APT. Adding a new repository works only if the software you want to install is publicly-available and distributed via the Internet.

      I had in mind commercial software, which tends not to be freely available.

      I really do not see (nor have I seen) this great disparity that you speak of.

      That's because commercial software vendors don't tend to distribute any software for Linux in the first place. I'd argue that the lack of a simple way to distribute software for "Linux" (as opposed to some small subset of distributions) is a reason why.

    83. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by thebdj · · Score: 1

      That's because commercial software vendors don't tend to distribute any software for Linux in the first place. I'd argue that the lack of a simple way to distribute software for "Linux" (as opposed to some small subset of distributions) is a reason why. I don't know there is some pretty big commercial software on Linux: Granted, this is largely specialty software, but even some game makers have made relatively painless install procedures. UT2004 gave me no trouble out of the box. RtCW was easily reconcilable trouble. Heck, UT04 even had the installer on the DVD. It was no harder then a Windows install.

      The fact is if there were demand for more commercial Linux software, then people would find ways to install it easily. Some already have found ways. The lack of commercial software on Linux is much more about demand then it is about ease of distribution. You could always setup closed repository systems to make distribution easier. CD Installers would be no worse then Windows.
      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    84. Re:Ah, don't underestimate MS by jesboat · · Score: 1

      I have no idea how those software deal with installation, so I can't reply further.

  44. TFA Starts out saying a billion installs.. by i8myh8 · · Score: 1
    ..then at the end claims a billion computers running Windows.

    So what I want to know, is it a billion computers running Windows simultaneously, a billion INSTALLS (as in I have to wipe and resetup mine every 6 months so my computers performance can be restored) or is it counting all forms of Windows, like Windows Mobile, Windows CD, etc. Yes, I know they're Windows, but they're not PC's.

  45. BSOD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thats over 52 Billion BSOD's a year!

  46. Is it counting reinstalls? by jocknerd · · Score: 1

    I used to have to reinstall Windows every three months. Those were the days.

    1. Re:Is it counting reinstalls? by SithLordOfLanc · · Score: 1

      Used to?

  47. Mind-numbing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you take in the fact that PCs are both smaller and significantly less expensive than cars, its not mind numbing at all.

  48. Ever Installed or still running? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this 1bn relate to mahines of whatever vintage actively running Windows or copies ever sold?
    What about people who bought Windows then went over to Linux?
    Perhaps MS think you cannot leave the family of Windows and not die? Sort of an Islamic OS?

  49. More than Apple? Slashdot article says not yet by objekt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA

    "The software giant announced it sold 60 million copies of Windows Vista this year, more than the entire installed base of Apple,"

    From http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/184 0206

    "According to Net Applications, in June Windows Vista accounted for 4.52% of all systems that browsed the Web, up from January's 0.18%. Vista has grown its usage share each month since its release to consumers Jan. 30, hitting 0.93% in February, 2.04% in March, 3.02% in April and 3.74% in May. Apple Inc.'s Mac OS X, meanwhile, accounted for 6.22% in January and hit its high point of 6.46% in May, but it slipped back to 6% in June. If Vista's uptake trend continues, it should pass Mac OS X in Web usage share by the end of August."

    Are we to believe all these Vista installs are simply not browsing the web?

    --
    -- Boycott Shell
    1. Re:More than Apple? Slashdot article says not yet by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      They sold 60 million in OEM installs on new machines and 30 million of them were uninstalled within a week.

    2. Re:More than Apple? Slashdot article says not yet by nephridium · · Score: 1

      Are we to believe all these Vista installs are simply not browsing the web?

      I'm not using Vista myself, but from what I read I gather this is part of the ultra-cool new security scheme implemented in Vista.

      --


      And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
    3. Re:More than Apple? Slashdot article says not yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In May they had sold 40 million (most of which were probably free upgrades)

      In two and a half months they've sold another 20 million? PCs normally sell about 60 million a quarter.

      Only 1/3 of new PCs come with Vista?

  50. Re:Hookin' a brufa up! by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

    Get her to add you as a friend.....you get to see milfy bewbs!!!! Anyone else think that would make a great Star Wars name? "Hi, I'm the suave smuggler gent Pan-ache and this is my partner, Milfy Bewbs. Are we fast? We made the twelve mile beer run in less than ten."
    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  51. more PCs than automobiles by stormi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "more PCs running Windows in the world than there are automobiles"

    Why is this supposed to be surprising? A lot of people don't have cars.

    There are peoples in cities, who have taxis, buses, subways, trains, carpooling, bikes, legs, etc.

    There are people in the countryside, farms etc, who may not have need of a car because they walk or use animals on their land.

    There are teens and college students everywhere who are likely to have a computer and not yet have a vehicle.

    If anything, that car analogy makes the numbers seem a lot less staggering.

    --
    "if only i had known i would have been a locksmith." -albert einstein
  52. Don't forget the Raw computing power by infonography · · Score: 1

    In a revolutionary step the WarezOv will also use the spare cycles of users desktops and advanced botfarming technologies to bring you Live Streaming broadbrain and new ways of using connected computing for Pornography and online gaming at hundreds of times the speed of your normal advertising service provider! It's so easy to use, and the surgery to implant it in the base of your skull is so painless.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  53. Moderators! by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Why is this drivel moderated as informative? Solely because it's nicely written, has no grammar mistakes, and sounds good?

    a) Windows XP remote desktop is easier to deal with than X remoting. Huh? What have you been smoking? May I have some of it? Next, you'll be saying that it's easier to transmit motion pictures using an etch-a-sketch than using a camera.

    1. Re:Moderators! by Reverend528 · · Score: 1, Insightful
      It's a very successful troll post. Look at some of these claims:

      no open source offering that comes remotely close to ... SQL Server 2005

      OpenOffice word processing is ok, but the spreadsheet is crap, and the "Access" clone is terrible.

      Not to mention the fact that he complains about having to manually configure X for his monitor in 1995.

    2. Re:Moderators! by Yosho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Huh? What have you been smoking? May I have some of it?

      Would you care to state why you think he's so wrong rather than making ad hominem attacks?

      I like Linux a lot -- I use it as my primary development environment at work, even -- but I have to agree that, despite any other problems it may have, XP's remote desktop is much easier to use than forwarding X connections. Under Linux I have to start up an SSH connection to another computer, enable X forwarding, then figure out the command line to execute whatever GUI I'm interested in. If you actually want to use your desktop environment on that computer, you'll get to jump through some other hoops to make it play nicely with your desktop on your current computer. In XP, you just establish a remote desktop connection to whatever computer you're interested in, and poof, you're connected with full GUI access.

      You can accomplish something similar in Linux with VNC, but that doesn't actually let you log in to a new session, you just take control of an existing X session. It's also much more bandwidth intensive than XP's RDP; you can use RDP over even a dial-up connection. VNC is an exercise in patience and watching windows redraw.

      X has its advantages, but easier? No, sir, what are you smoking?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    3. Re:Moderators! by dawhippersnapper · · Score: 1, Informative

      SQL Server 2005 is Amazing. If you look at performance and stability over it's predecessors and then look at the performance over competitors and how seasoned USPs are and the ability to use .NET code in the database.

      I have had to manually configure my monitors in 2005 with some distros. None the less 1995. I think your post is flamebait! :)

      --
      Freedom is fragile and must be protected. To sacrifice it, even as a temporary measure, is to betray it.
    4. Re:Moderators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      First, X11's built-in network mode does not require SSH. In fact, when properly set up, it works much as you just described - you can create a new session, log in with your chosen environment, then log out again. Of course, this is highly insecure, so it's disabled by default on all Linux distributions.

      VNC is hardly a Linux thing. The SSH way is basically intended for running a single program remotely, not for running the entire desktop. Neither of these are comparable to RDP, because they're not supposed to be! It's complaining that a server isn't as portable as a laptop.

      NX works in a similar way to X11's built-in networking, except it uses SSH to establish a connection, perform authentication, and tunnels all traffic through it. It also adds compression, latency reduction, and all that other useful stuff. Works much better than RDP, in my opinion. If you're going to whine about remote access sucking on Linux, it would help to actually use a proper solution, rather than complain that the half-assed stuff you managed to hack together didn't work very well.

    5. Re:Moderators! by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      ... Under Linux I have to start up an SSH connection to another computer, ... He was speaking about X, not ssh. These are two different protocols, you know. And yes, I also happen to prefer ssh rather than Windows' telnet. It might be slightly more complicated to use, but is (1) way more secure, and (2) way more versatile.
    6. Re:Moderators! by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Wow, you can use .Net code in the database? While it's a welcome feature, most other databases have supported other languages for stored procedures for a while, and a lot more than just extra. For instance, check out this excerpt from the PostgreSQL website. Makes SQL servers capabilities a bit of a joke. PostgreSQL runs stored procedures in more than a dozen programming languages, including Java, Perl, Python, Ruby, Tcl, C/C++, and its own PL/pgSQL, which is similar to Oracle's PL/SQL. Included with its standard function library are hundreds of built-in functions that range from basic math and string operations to cryptography and Oracle compatibility. Triggers and stored procedures can be written in C and loaded into the database as a library, allowing great flexibility in extending its capabilities. Similarly, PostgreSQL includes a framework that allows developers to define and create their own custom data types along with supporting functions and operators that define their behavior. As a result, a host of advanced data types have been created that range from geometric and spatial primitives to network addresses to even ISBN/ISSN (International Standard Book Number/International Standard Serial Number) data types, all of which can be optionally added to the system.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Moderators! by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Informative

      Under Linux I have to start up an SSH connection to another computer, enable X forwarding,

      Uhh.. what? Why did you have to bring SSH tunneling into it. You could say exactly the same about terminal server.

      Under X the simplest is to go to the terminal, select the machine you want to log into and log into it. It's 100% transparent and runs at native speed. This has worked perfectly for 20 years plus. Or you can log in locally and multiple machines on the same desktop just by setting an environment variable (or a script which runs by clicking, which is easier) - and they run exactly as if you'd run them on the local machine again at full speed. Windows just can't do anything like this.

      That whole paragraph about figuring stuff out and configuring is just FUD - have you ever even *tried* to use X remotely? 'command line to execute whatever gui you're interested in'? WTF?? Your GUI is already running on your local machine.

      X works fine over dialup - it is *designed* to work over slow connections... when it was written that was all they had.

    8. Re:Moderators! by compro01 · · Score: 1

      you can use RDP over even a dial-up connection.

      maybe they've improved it since i last tried it (just after SP1), but i did not find it very usable over dial up, even on my good dial up connection (consistent 48kbps with about 200ms latency between me and the other computer). very jumpy cursor and occasional phantom clicks. then again, various flavours of VNC didn't fare that much better, so it was more a problem of not enough bandwidth for the task than a problem with the software.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    9. Re:Moderators! by dawhippersnapper · · Score: 1

      I actually didn't know Postgres had that feature. I'll have to look into that. I do prefer Postgres over MySQL.

      I have a barely used MySQL server stable debian install on a server with 1024mb of ram and dual xeons that crashes about once a week, similar servers we have run with postgres never crash.

      --
      Freedom is fragile and must be protected. To sacrifice it, even as a temporary measure, is to betray it.
    10. Re:Moderators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      with SQL server 2000, you could write stored procedure in C++.

    11. Re:Moderators! by Game_Ender · · Score: 1

      Have you heard of NX: http://www.nomachine.com/ ? It gives you a remote connection to your desktop using a compressed version of the X protocol.

    12. Re:Moderators! by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I actually didn't know Postgres had that feature.

      And yet here you are comparing SQL Server to its competition and declaring it to be `amazing'.

    13. Re:Moderators! by norminator · · Score: 1

      Apparently the GPP thought he has to tunnel X over ssh to use it remotely, I guess that's why he mentioned it. And by the way, telnet is not a Windows thing, it's a standardized protocol, and Windows includes a telnet client (except for Vista, which makes it a non-default but still available add-on), just like most (if not all) Linux distributions do.

      Also, saying that ssh is way more secure than telnet is like saying driving a car is faster than standing still. Telnet has no security, whereas ssh has very good security. That said, you're right in that ssh is very versatile, very useful, and secure. I use it all the time, but I also have some specific uses for telnet also. The right tool for the right job.

    14. Re:Moderators! by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      And by the way, telnet is not a Windows thing, it's a standardized protocol, and Windows includes a telnet client I know this, of course. My point is that with Windows, out of the box, you have only telnet, whereas with Linux, you also have ssh. (And some distros only include ssh, no telnet).

      but I also have some specific uses for telnet also. Me too, I occasionally use telnet. One situation being (for instance) telneting from an ssh-less windows machine to a server on the local LAN (after hours, while making sure no-one else is around or has a sniffer running). Or (more frequently) as a general-purpose TCP/IP client to test other unrelated services.
    15. Re:Moderators! by norminator · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding (and with some limited experience) that remote X is not very fast, and is a security risk. From what I understand, that's why NX (FreeNX) is so useful... everything is tunneled transparently over an ssh connection, and a lot of the X stuff gets optimized. I guess there's a lot of back and forth communication between the X server and X clients which creates a lot of delay over a network, but somehow NX solves that. The big boast of the NX protocol is that it works great over low-bandwidth, high latency connections. I haven't ever tried it oever anything other than a local connection, so I don't know anything about that, really.

      And NX has gotten much easier to install and setup, and will probably get easier. With the latest versions from NoMachine, you have the option of "shadowing" an existing session (à la Windows Remote Assistance) or starting a new session (which was previously the only way to do it).

    16. Re:Moderators! by abigor · · Score: 1

      X does NOT work fine over dialup. Please be realistic. X generates a ton of events, and was designed to work over fast local connections. If you do tunnel X over ssh for security, then you can forget about using it even over dsl for anything but the most trivial work (ie I defy you to run Firefox remotely over dsl).

      I regularly use NoMachine's NX product, and it is pretty good over dsl. Similarly, Microsoft's RDP works very well over the same connection. In terms of clickable ease of use and speed, NX is similar to RDP. However, it is obviously not stock X.

      As far as starting a remote X app - how does one do it? You drop to the terminal and type, that's how. Sure, maybe you have a clickable script, but that script has to get there somehow. No big deal for you and I, but a very big deal for someone who is used to just clicking on an icon and immediately getting their entire remote desktop. It makes remote work a very simple thing for anyone, which is why it's so successful.

    17. Re:Moderators! by abigor · · Score: 1

      Full disclosure: I am a Gentoo user, so I'm sure distributions like Kubuntu make remote desktops trivial to set up. So my ease of use comments were written from a Gentoo perspective, and are probably misguided for the great majority of Linux users who use "friendly" distributions; apologies.

    18. Re:Moderators! by init100 · · Score: 1

      I have a barely used MySQL server stable debian install on a server with 1024mb of ram and dual xeons that crashes about once a week

      Well, that's strange. I've never had MySQL servers crash on me, and I've used them quite a bit.

    19. Re:Moderators! by init100 · · Score: 1

      ssh is very versatile, very useful, and secure.

      I completely agree. Now I only wish there would be an SSH server for Windows so that people could just ditch the problematic FTP protocol for anything other than anonymous access. With problematic I'm referring to the problems you'll have if at least one of the endpoints is behind a firewall. Then you need to choose active/passive mode, which won't work if both ends are firewalled. SSH, on the contrary, uses a single port for everything, making it much easier to use in firewalled environments.

    20. Re:Moderators! by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      My point is that with Windows, out of the box, you have only telnet, whereas with Linux, you also have ssh I'm not sure if you had client or server in mind, but just to clarify, Ubuntu does not have sshd installed by default. It's pretty simple to install through apt, but you do have to do it yourself.
    21. Re:Moderators! by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1

      Cept, NX doesn't seem to work too well.....I gave up trying a while back. It was jumpy even on a switched LAN.

      On the other hand, half the problem was the kde desktop sharing daemon which crashed 2 seconds in on every login, but even without that problem it was slow.

    22. Re:Moderators! by nuclearpenguins · · Score: 0

      In the past month I've tired installing Ubuntu on a couple of different machines and I had to reconfigure X each time just to get the installer to work. It's currently 2007 and his point is still valid.

      --
      Anonymous Coward: "This is slashdot. Accuracy is second class citizen here, unlike King Bias."
    23. Re:Moderators! by cstdenis · · Score: 0

      I've also has serious stability issues with mysql (4.x tree) under very high loads. Its replication is horrible under high loads too.

      --
      1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
    24. Re:Moderators! by defaria · · Score: 1

      I'm sick and tired of people bemoaning the command line. What's do damn difficult with starting up a terminal and typing a command! Why is it you feel that clicking something is superior? Can't you type fer crying out loud!

    25. Re:Moderators! by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      I'm sick and tired about people bemoaning the GUI. What's wrong with people having a preference? Why is it you make it a superiority contest, when it's just about opinions? Can't you conceive of the notion that other people's opinions aren't for attacking, in the general case?

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    26. Re:Moderators! by jesboat · · Score: 1

      You're both arguing extremes.

      If you want VNC or X to be secure, you need to tunnel it. IIRC, RDP supports SSL natively. (Yes, I know some of the VNC variants support SSL, but that's just some.)

      The methods you describe for X forwarding are way too technical for the average user to access his computer from home. In addition, you gloss over some things... e.g. "select the machine you want to log into and log into it".

      You're also restricting yourself to using computers on the same LAN; X degrades Real Fast over slower links. (At least it does in my experience.)

      Finally, you're comparing apples and oranges: RFB forwards an entire desktop-- desktop, window manager, windows, input, sound, disk, etc. X11 forwards the content of specific windows.

    27. Re:Moderators! by jesboat · · Score: 1

      It was probably your latency which was killing things (and, indeed, as you say, was simply insufficient for remote desktoping purposes regardless of the protocol.)

      (My experience. YMMV)

  54. Lots more running Linux by flyingfsck · · Score: 4, Informative

    A few years ago, I saw an IBM analysis that estimated more than 1 billion device are running Linux (mostly cell phones and routers).

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Lots more running Linux by Abattoir · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that every node in BlueGene/L runs Linux. I don't know how many nodes they're upto, but its several tens or hundreds of thousands of square footage entirely comprised of racked IBM Bladecenters, so IBM themselves covers a substantial number of Linux hosts just in their supercomputers.

  55. I'm not convinced. by lupine_stalker · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming that the 'one billion' figure includes every computer that ever ran Windows (including reinstalls), rather than currently active PC's. This makes the 'zomg, number of Windows > number of Cars' slightly clearer.
    No cars that I'm aware of have a life cycle of (approximately) 3 years. Many computers that I see do.
    Of course, not many cars have a relatively easy reboot that you can in the space of a few hours to make it essentially new again.

    --
    Ninjas use italics.
  56. If Bill Gates by infonography · · Score: 2, Funny

    Had a dollar for everything I've heard that one he'd be as rich as Bill Gates.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  57. Could be a billion... by Ringthane · · Score: 1

    I sure feel like I've done a billion Windows installs (and re-installs... and re-re-installs) building and maintaining homebrew PCs for the past 17 years...

    --
    Friends help you move... Real friends help you move bodies...
  58. What at egregious insult by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Funny


    to McDonalds. When was the last time you had a Big Mac? It may not be the most nutritious thing in the world, but at least it's TASTY. I have eaten many an XP installer CD, and I can assure you it is neither.

    1. Re:What at egregious insult by Reverend528 · · Score: 1

      I have eaten many an XP installer CD

      If they taste so bad, why do you keep eating them?

    2. Re:What at egregious insult by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 1

      If they taste so bad, why do you keep eating them?

      because i hate myself :-(

      --
      sarcasm:
      -noun
      1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
    3. Re:What at egregious insult by kayditty · · Score: 0

      When was the last time you had a Big Mac? It may not be the most nutritious thing in the world, but at least it's TASTY.
      You're fucking disgusting.
  59. The sound of a billion computers by armodude · · Score: 1

    all sound the same to me user:help! my computer is running slow

  60. Frankly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aren't most of you just plain jealous? I mean, just look at the comments and it stinks of Anti-Microsoft fanboyism. If you guys love Linux, that's fine, but why should you get frustrated by Microsoft's success?

    1. Re:Frankly... by psbrogna · · Score: 1

      I get frustrated because of the large % of Windows installations that serve as malware platforms.

  61. Wow! by davecrist · · Score: 1

    Imagine a botnet cluster of those...

    *duck*

  62. Works both ways by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1

    Well, I just stuffed an egg McMuffin in my CD drive.

    That's not working out so well either.

    --
    What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
    1. Re:Works both ways by norminator · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, I just stuffed an egg McMuffin in my CD drive.

      That's not working out so well either.
      Idiot. That's a coffee cup holder. No wonder you're having problems.
  63. Obigatory 'The IT Crowd' quote by Chris+Tucker · · Score: 1

    [Roy receiving a tech support call, answers after 15 rings with a sigh]
            Roy: Hello, IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?
            Roy: Well, the button on the side, is it glowing?
            Roy: Yeah, you need to turn it on.
            Roy: The button turns it on.
            Roy: You DO know how a button works, don't you?
            Roy: No, not on clothes.
            Roy: No, no, there you go, there you go. I just heard it come on.
            Roy: No, no, that's the music you hear when it comes on.
            Roy: No, that's the music you hear when you..
            Roy: I'm sorry, are you from the past?

    --
    Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
  64. ad revenue? by Mariani · · Score: 1

    A billion Windows installs, that would mean at least a billion Windows re-installs every year. Advertisers would pay some serious money to advertise on those installation screens.

  65. A billion Windows installations... by Prototerm · · Score: 1

    ...and all of them running in a virtual machine on Linux, safely cut off from the rest of the Universe. Three chairs ... I mean cheers ... for Balmer

    --
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
  66. In other news... by Sierpinski · · Score: 1

    Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer reported today that Microsoft has just sold their 300,000th Windows license!

  67. A billion computers running Windows... by Dareth · · Score: 1

    .... doesn't this just scream for the line:

    "And one botnet to rule them all!" ok.. sorry .. couldn't help myself.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  68. kind of mind-numbing? by rocketjam · · Score: 1

    which is at least to me kind of a mind-numbing concept.

    A billion computers running Windows. That's beyond kind of mind-numbing. That's extremely mind-numbing.

  69. Almost half right... by Jeff+Carr · · Score: 3, Informative

    a) Yup, I'll give you that.
    b) Sure, that's correct, however, I wouldn't say that the start bar is still technically superior to Gnome's or KDE's.
    c) Ah, but GDI is no longer hardware accelerated, and WMF is resource hungry for general computing use.
    d) Can't speak to this, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    e) Ok, that isn't a statement of something Windows does better. Just a statement of popularity.
    f) Closed the gap in hardware discovery? You're stating that Windows was superior 12 years ago. That should tell you something. Have you used Ubuntu? It discovers everything perfectly for me. Vista still won't recognize my onboard SATA, onboard NIC, Linksys Wireless card, or Promise Raid Controller without drivers and excessive rebooting. Good thing my network card drivers are available on the internet...
    g) Completely incorrect for most purposes. Common software is available in repositories and available instantly with a search and two clicks. No restart, and installed in your menu in a manner that makes sense. Yes, many power users do work off of svn (easier in Linux than windows) or compile their own apps (easier to do on Linux again).

    --
    The television will not be revolutionized.
    1. Re:Almost half right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, many power users do work off of svn (easier in Linux than windows) or compile their own apps (easier to do on Linux again).

      I thought "Power Users" were ones who could program Outlook to insert their e-mail signature automatically whenever they send mail...

  70. Actually there is nothing from Microsoft to match by mario_grgic · · Score: 1

    ease of use and sophistication of Eclipse and Java. By the way most of the things you mention do not have anything to do with end users. Users could care less if their games are written using DirectX API or Open GL.

    --
    As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
  71. and why not? by Twisted64 · · Score: 1

    They may as well have a guess at the number of pirated copies out there - they're the biggest fans, the little match-selling children who can't afford their favourite OS, so they have to pirate it, though it breaks their little hearts.

    --
    Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
  72. Cool but I doubt it... by McNihil · · Score: 1

    but it would indicate that there is 50+ Million Linux installs. Personally I have 6 devices with UNIX/GNU-Linux underpinnings. So... 10+ Million people. And if all are as hard core then there is nothing to worry about regarding the big anthill.

  73. Article is like throwing a child to the lions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This entire article should be posted as flamebait. Seriously.

  74. A bit confusing by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

    Installs or running? A lot of folks are debating what counts as an install. "Running" is a bit suspect as well.

    Ultimately it's like trying to whip up excitement about 1 billion infections of herpes. Or do they mean active blisters? Either way, it's still herpes.

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  75. Would really listen to a guy... by Tiger+Smile · · Score: 1

    ...who admits that his mind is numb?

    --
    -- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
  76. Currently active ? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    This sounds rather high for currently active machines with windows currently installed.

    If they want to include all installs since 1.0, then i might believe their number. ( still sounds high, but at least reasonable )

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  77. Not that much... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are more bicycles in china than automobiles in the world.

  78. A Billion Windows by thethibs · · Score: 0, Troll

    Hello? A little reading comprehension problem here?

    Microsoft revenue in the last fiscal year: $15 Billion.

    Vista licensing revenue in its first fiscal year: $2 Billion.

    Linux-derived software licensing revenue throughout all of time: Hmmm.

    Does anyone actually think that linux running on PDAs and TV remotes is at all relevant?

    What is relevant is that MS is doing a whole lot of things right. And MS shareholders are getting rich and powerful and get the most desirable women.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  79. Not that mind-boggling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After all, if cars crashed as often as MS products, the install base would likely be at least several hundred to several thousand times the number of automobiles. You know, I take that back. It is mind-boggling that 1 billion people bought and continue to buy a product that defective.

  80. Sky-bot-net by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    On day 1 the Botnet infected 1 Billion PCs. On day 2 it became self aware. On Day 3, it realized it did not have a nuclear weapons or robots so, it just slacked off and played minesweeper till 5pm, then went home and had stiff drink.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Sky-bot-net by curunir · · Score: 1

      On Day 3, it realized it did not have a nuclear weapons or robots...
      Unfortunately, that might not be the case?

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
  81. You know what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's time to leave the earth.

  82. Bullshit by kc2keo · · Score: 1

    What a bunch of bullshit. Of course there are going to be more reported users with Windows because most of the vendor computers have Windows pre-installed. Right now only Dell is selling machines with Pre-installed GNU/Linux Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn. My distro does everything I need it to do except in the gaming department for which I need to have XP on my machine here. TFA says: "There have been just 12 serious vulnerabilities reported with Vista over the first 180 days versus 25 for Windows XP over the same period. This number is also lower than for Apple and other operating systems. We have also seen 21 percent fewer support calls for Vista versus XP over the same period." Like its said before lots of times... Behind the curtain there are probably many more serious vulnerabilities.

  83. Cracked? by bstamour · · Score: 1

    Now may I ask: how many of those billion installs are cracked?

  84. not another automobile comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'd think MSFT would have learned a lesson about comparing software to cars. Wasn't there an incident several years back where Bill Gates notes the stunning progress in software development by making a comparison to cars? Think he said that if cars progressed as rapidly as software, we'd have flying cars by now.

    The head of GM retorted shortly thereafter by noting that if car's had the same quality standards as MSFT's software our cars would crash every day.

    MSFT needs to get off the car comparisons.

  85. Ohhh, yeah. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    > Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer claimed yesterday that there will be a billion machines running Windows within a year.

    Statistically, that's what, 2.3 BSODs per second?

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Ohhh, yeah. by thethibs · · Score: 1

      Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?!

      No one decided. We all noticed that we were not using manual typewriters and that we had real fonts. This allowed us to advance to standard typography. Enjoy.

      As an aside, there's a good book that anyone who produces a lot of printed material should have: The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst.

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  86. Soon they will have to change their sign... by urbanaucourant · · Score: 0

    Over a McBillion screwed.

  87. any linux users still counting their machine? by ccgr · · Score: 1

    http://i18n.counter.li.org/ wonder how long it will take to catch up and conquer. :)

    --
    http://www.bookforce.net
  88. Billions and billions and billions by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

    if you count all of the Windows piracy in third world nations like China. Regards to the late Carl Sagan.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  89. To insure they reach this number.... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ... they now have a company wide policy to re-install Vista every night. And that is just for starters. They also have several thousand machines that go through the re-install process continually. And in addition there is going to be a Vista upgrade that cause re-installs on consumer systems that fit the requirements of such a task without bringing suspicion by the consumer.

    Considering the human population of the planet is just over 6 billion.... using MS marketing mentality, that must mean the other 5 billion are running something other tan MS OS.

  90. I felt by maroberts · · Score: 1

    a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of computers cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced...

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

  91. Dodgy accounting by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    Microsoft are famous for calculating the number of installed windows platforms in a very skewed way.
    For example, every six months when you need to do one of those maintenance reinstalls of windows because it has got too slow/fat/buggy, MS count that as another newly installed platform because you just reauthenticated.

  92. It's as if... by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's as if a billion computers all cried out at once in terror and said, "It appears you are being suddenly silenced. Cancel or allow?"

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  93. For an estimated total of... by Analogy+Man · · Score: 2, Funny

    1,000,000,000,000,000 reboots! Is it a zillion after trillions?

    --
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
  94. Global Warming by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    I would have thought computers would have surpasses cars a while ago.

    Increased ownership of computers may reduce emissions by reducing the need to travel. Also more people may spend more time with their computers rather than going out.

    For the population as a whole, Windows has allowed a wide spectrum of people to use computers with a variety of side-effects: (1) less expensive and improved technology, (2) increased awareness and knowledge, (3) heightened expectations of technological usability and achievement, (4) shift in culture and lifestyle. It's not all good or bad, but life in 2007 without computers as they are today would probably be precarious and unnatural.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    1. Re:Global Warming by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      That shift was happening before Microsoft became a big player. I find it very revisionist to exclude the really important players in getting the computer from the corporate, government and military havens where it existed and into our homes. The real credit belongs Wozniak and Jobs.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  95. More interesting numbers by psbrogna · · Score: 1

    I'd like to know how many users actually buy (ie. made a decision) Windows vice having no choice because it's what came with their computer. As far as I know, it's an incredibly small % relative to the number of Windows machines. It'd be interesting to compare to the number of users that chose Windows vs. chosing alternative O/S's. It would be particularly telling if you could factor into the comparison tech. vs. non-tech. users.

  96. Re:Never subtract! Never Surrender! by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    McDonald's is at 99 billion from the signs here. Wonder how close to 100, if that's for real. Might be a prize for the customer at 100 ...

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  97. gimp ui hope by fritsd · · Score: 1
    On lwn.net, there's a discussion about gimp's (lack of a nice-) UI and human-computer interaction so maybe there is hope that they'll change the GUI around again to make it more human-usable. I don't use it often (can't draw worth shit) so for me it doesn't matter anyway.

    usb drives: probably not a problem. A color laser printer that works: check out http://www.openprinting.org/ first! Shop for a supported printer; e.g. currently (27-07-2007) from brand "HP" I see color laserjet 2500 and higher rated as "perfectly", model 1600 and 2600n as "mostly" and model 1500 as "paperweight" so YMMV.

    --
    To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    1. Re:gimp ui hope by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Thanks very much to you and others. I've recorded your excellent tips.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  98. Man they really spin the stats in this one by leron · · Score: 1

    >> it sold 60 million copies of Windows Vista this year, more than the entire installed base of Apple The thing is the Apple Ipod, IPhone, Apple TV, etc run OSX too. So Apple's installed base is well above 160 Million. And what about all the Linux/BSD OSes that power the embedded computers in Cell Phones, Routers, DVD Players, MP3 Players, Video Games, TVs, Cameras, Printers, etc. As well as all the open source OS based computers that power a majority of the worlds supercomputing clusters. In reality Microsoft is a company under siege, the 1 billion number is only really impressive if you only pay attention to what is inside Microsoft's markets that Microsoft dominates.

  99. I'd like to point out... by HeavyDevelopment · · Score: 1

    that even if there are a billion installs or whatever, it in no way shape or form makes it better or even, for that matter, good. McDonald's comes to mind. Can anyone honestly say that their food is good (okay someone over the age of 10)? I'm personally trying to go MS free, but work keeps me from that goal. I'm sorta done with their suckware.

    --
    Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
  100. Installed (shipped) or in use? by beowulf01 · · Score: 0

    We've heard this song and dance before and smacks of special accounting practices. It is true that Corporate entities will have thousands of "installs," but it is also true that they did not pay full price for all those licenses. I am not inclined to call those captive users a fully functional Windows user base. I suppose if one counts every Windows version installed since Windows 286....

    [Nearly] every PC shipped has an OS installed but does that mean all of those OS are in use? How many get stripped off and replaced? Upgraded?

    I suppose if one counts every Windows version installed since Windows 286....

  101. McDonalds of software by wardk · · Score: 2, Funny

    just as healthy too

    1. Re:McDonalds of software by sleekware · · Score: 0

      Microsoft: Billions and Billions Screwed

      junkware and junk food. its the american way!

  102. Off-topic by Kwiik · · Score: 1
    Re: your signature

    Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes. Not true..
    just get them to say "Not tonight, I'm on my rag"
    --
    Vehicle Stars used car search is my current project
    1. Re:Off-topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Four successful cock blocks so far this season. (thanks Chappelle.)

  103. Familiar Windows Setup by maskedau · · Score: 1

    That's more than 1 billion re-installs a year!

  104. Guess what?! by antek9 · · Score: 1

    I've got a fever, and the only prescription is . . . more Windows!

    Honestly, while I think it is fairly easy to numb Mr. Ballmer's mind, here's an even more mind-numbing concept: even if you multiply the respective numbers of Windows installs with those of all cars on earth, there's still more cockroaches running around than that. Cockroaches win!

    --
    A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
  105. thats a lot of crashes by seventhc · · Score: 0

    A billion BSOD

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    'sig' deleted due to the stupidity of it's 'nature'
  106. Yes, a billion.... by El+Gruga · · Score: 1

    which proves that Windows machines have finally reached the level of huge piles of throwaway trash.

  107. A Billion installs?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's 100 million machines with 9 re-installs each.

  108. Microsoft, decaying empire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing lasts forever.

  109. Don't misunderestimate me - that's just one user by Batmeister · · Score: 1

    Don't misunderestimate me - that's just one user's install history while trying to get 2 usb devices to work in windoze

  110. There are a billion cockroaches on the planet too. by zenaida_valdez · · Score: 1

    Greater numbers do not indicate a higher lifeform.

  111. What, does Dr. Evil work for Microsoft now? by mattizzle · · Score: 1

    What, does Dr. Evil work for Microsoft now? "A BILLION INSTALLS, Mhua ha ha ha haaaaaaa....."

  112. how many are actually re-installs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems that Windows always needs to be re-installed when something major goes wrong with it.

  113. One billion served by alisson · · Score: 1

    And nearly a quarter of those are legitimate coppies!

  114. 1,000. by crhylove · · Score: 1

    1,000 points of BLUE light.

    --
    I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
  115. A lot of damage to clean up by Johannes+Rexx · · Score: 0

    A billion installations of Windows! OMG what a terrifiying mess to clean up. The loss of productivityt will be unimaginable. It will set us back to the stone age. It's time for the Linux and Mac faithful to come forth with some hopeful statistics. Perhaps there are more than a billion linux installs if you count embedded Linux. Smartphones running Linux should help that counter.

    --
    Linux Rules, Macintosh Rocks, what's Wintel?
  116. Cue Bad Windows and Automobile Analogies in ... by 7FFEFEC0 · · Score: 1

    1...2...3...4

  117. Re:foor, foor POSSies by FragHARD · · Score: 1

    ->>I have never, ever, not even once, heard of anyone getting an OEM copy of Windows, and then going out and buying another flavor<<-

    Well now.. I am hear to tell you for the first time that is exactaly what just happened to a couple I just installed Kubuntu on a Dell XPS720 (sweeeeet machine). I set it up to dual boot with vista and so far they have gone into windows twice in the last week, I talked to them yesterday about how it was working with the dual boot setup and they wanted to know if I could remove windows! I was shocked...I told them you have over 2.5 terabytes of harddrive thats plenty of room to leave it on there, but his wife said "If were not gonig to use it why have it there?" can't argue with that 0:). I will hold out a little longer to see if she doesn't change her mind ;) Hmmm I wonder if I can report to Microsoft somehow the number of windows UN-installs I have performed in the past, to be honest I have replaced linux with win98 a few times in the past also mainly because you couldn't play command & conquer on mandrake or slackware! but now the tables have turned and you can plat c&c red alert2 and others on linux easier than XP or vista...Oh did I say easier I meant play it at all.

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    FragHARD or don't frag at all
  118. Reinstalls shouldn't count. by icyandunapproachable · · Score: 1

    It's misleading.

  119. More Windows PC's than cars? by pookemon · · Score: 1

    Yes - but there aren't as many cars crashing...

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    dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
  120. repetition by azenpunk · · Score: 0, Redundant

    let me be the thousandth to say: Are they counting the usual, annual re-install?

  121. Re:foor, foor POSSies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Toe, cho are chottally k3wl!! Ima bettin dere 2.5 terabite hard drivers was tattley all up ins, homes!! Was dey tottally like uninstall windows bro two chu? dam!!!!

    So chu un-ins-alls lunix wit win98? dat fly, i likes c&c. vista teh suks. canz you blive dat stoopd m$$$$$ offi$$$$e sze i speel stff rong? Ima like choo, all like up an freestlye speeling up ins dey all grill homes!!! dam! choo no wht ima sayin playr? we coo. i uze de OOO.orgy yo, it all up ins. it coo wit me speeling.

    choo should tel dem bout doze m$$$$ un-in-stals, homes. dat be de bomdigidy, boye!

  122. Ah! But! by Snaller · · Score: 1

    How many uninstalls?

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    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  123. Does taht count... by Josiah_Bradley · · Score: 1

    I installed my legal copy of windows XP Pro SP1 so many times, because of problems and a lot of testing out experimental software I actually got redirected to a webpage last time I authorized my windows copy telling me that I had RUN OUT OF INSTALLS left on my license! I had to get another LEGAL copy from the MSDNAA network through my school! If they are counting just authorized copies or installs then I have over 20-30 myself and thats from only 2 CDs!!! And I was thinking about re-install soon just so I can condense all my hard drives to larger ones and to fix a couple more problems and make room for a few more linux installs hah....

  124. I have to switch to Ubuntu then... by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Becuase SUSE really is a mess compared to that!

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    This is my sig.