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Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Announced
bigstrat2003 writes "For the past day, Wizards of the Coast has had a countdown to "4dventure" on their web site. The countdown ran out at 6:30 eastern time today (and the web site promptly crashed), but stories are already appearing on the rest of the web. Wizards also has had their 4th edition forums up for a couple of days."
Yahoo!
*dances around happy because he held out from buying 3.5 books*
I think it might be a first: An anonymous coward, posting racial slurs, who openly admits that he has no balls. Truth in advertising at long last?
Any comment mentioning moderation is automatically Offtopic.
Well, I left the countdown running on my computer, when it ran out, it auto refreshed and showed me the new page. Maybe a few thousand other people did the same. Anyway, the site looks quite different now, and seems to have a lot of new content, although I can't navigate it (the server being down and all). the coral cache does work though (at least it was around 8pm).
Video Production Support
When did we devolve to this level of inanery?
Maybe I'm stuck in dreams of a past utopia that never was, but in any case, I feel old and slightly soiled now.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV...
First they cancel the popular and successful Dungeon and Dragon magazines by not renewing the subscription with Paizo, and next they pull a stunt like this? I don't believe I'm the only one to find the DRM-laden "Digital Initiative" to be potentially a very poor substitute for the magazines, and this blunder will only compound the ill will directed against them.
This move will only alienate their consumer base. The fact that 3.5 is working, and in no need of overhaul, exposes the fact that they are doing this under the motivation of short-sighted greed. I shudder to think what sort of backlash (as before with Dungeon and Dragon were canceled) is taking place on the forum.
I'm literally in shock right now. I thought Wizards of the Coast understood its consumer base better and was comprised of people more concerned about the integrity of the game and more competent about long-term business strategies.
A front page D&D news story. That's gotta be hard to top.
I own damn near every 3.5 book there is. I haven't looked too much into the "new version" but I have no intention to replace the books I own. If the "new version" is mostly moot, as far as system changes, then I'll continue to buy their books.
Given that the system is fairly hashed out, I don't see much reason to change.
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
So how much xp do we get for killing the website?
I had to try 3e when it came out... I figured it was really cool that my favorite RPG was getting a facelift, as I was never really satisfied with the 2nd edition rules. But alas, after trying it out and playing it for a few weeks I concluded that it was a big mistake to have sold all my 2e stuff to finance the purchasing of 3rd edition material. 3rd edition D&D was not a role playing game as I understood it... it was basically just a pen-and-paper version of a computer game, requiring a ridiculous amount of number crunching and bean counting. Suddenly every single thing that a character was supposedly able to do was governed by a skill associated with a number... taking away a vital element of creativity that in my opinion is a vital core of any real RPG. Rather than trying to reacquire the 2nd edition stuff I formerly had, however, I decided instead to go all the way back to the beginning (well, almost) and go with first edition AD&D, because the number of books published for it was small enough that it wouldn't completely break my pocketbook to get them all. I spent a couple of weeks hunting for bargains on ebay and eventually got all the hardcover rulebooks for the game. I bought pdf's of modules through rpgnow, and I was good to go. I have now have a group of 4 players, and we play weekly.
Fans of 1st edition AD&D, check out the Dragonsfoot web site. 2nd edition is well received there too.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The last couple of years I have spent around a thousand dollars updating my books from AD&D 2nd Edition to D&D 3.5 and now they decide to release 4th Edition...
That would be a very good thing.
Predictions:
1) reductions in all rules requiring any DM adjudication
2) more caster nerfing to "balance" the classes across all levels
3) a new campaign world
4) idiotic marketing
Wizards doesn't seem to get the idea that it doesn't have enough momentum to carry the MMORPG market.
Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and the (incredible) Planescape:Torment put them on perfect footing to make a huge splash in the MMORPG arena, but they chose to hack their dong off by setting Dungeons and Dragons Online in Eberron, their new PnP setting.
Mind you DDO launched well after WoW.
They actually decided, I can only assume, to set their 1st mainstream attempt at an MMORPG in a completely foreign world to most of their customers in order to drive book sales.
Books.
Pulp.
Magazines. (now sadly gone)
That's how out of touch they were.
Wizards is still trapped in a world where metal must hit paper to make money, to their loss.
WoTC got its start with Magic, the object of which is to purchase as much printed matter from WoTC as possible.
I managed to get a glimpse of the new website before the /. effect took its toll and they shut it down. It looks nice. I like how they're integrating it online, but more importantly, they're fixing various broken things that they couldn't before. I also like the idea of integrating racial substitution levels directly into the racial/class entries (mixing races and classes from different supplements probably will still be difficult, or maybe the online content will mitigate that). Also, half-elves now have inspiring presence. Sounds like they aren't just a bridge between elves and humans anymore.
I'm worried about the 18 3.0/3.5 books I own though. Most of the fluff is probably still applicable, but I hope that the 700+ dollars doesn't just get thrown away.
3rd edition D&D was not a role playing game as I understood it... it was basically just a pen-and-paper version of a computer game, requiring a ridiculous amount of number crunching and bean counting. Suddenly every single thing that a character was supposedly able to do was governed by a skill associated with a number.
So true. IMO, the profusion of classes, monster types, feats, and other additions were really just an excuse to keep pumping out new rules supplements. Rather than fostering creative roleplay, for a long time D&D has fostered hack & slash gaming.
For my money, the game system that best fostered role play and realism was RuneQuest 2. The game system was easy to learn, lean and mean, and the Glorantha setting was developed in a way that filled in many details while leaving room for plenty of GM and player creativity. Then Avalon Hill got a hold of the game, and the third version headed downhill. The recently-released Mongoose Publishing version is even worse. It's sad to see such a great game fall into such a state of disrepair.
Yes, I realize most Slashdotters have no idea what RQ 2 is, but please allow us dottering oldsters our reminiscing.
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I'm going to have to spend all my money buying the new books! If I had a girlfriend, she'd kill me!
This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
Tor like oatmeals!
I run a nationwide 3.5ed D&D campaign (anyone can play -- www.livingplanar.com), and have talked a little bit with some people at WOTC about 4th edition. If you've been paying attention to their releases over the last year or two, you'll have noticed like I did that they've been experimenting with a lot of new 'systems' for doing stuff. The Tome of Battle completely redid combat for non-spellcasters, the Tome of Magic introduced 3 new magic systems which didn't fit in with the standard magic-user/cleric model that we've had since the '70s. Magic of Incarnum was another alternate magic system. Complete Scoundrel introduced 'skill tricks' which rewrote how skills worked. Complete Mage introduced 'reserve feats' which allowed spellcasters to cast (weak) spells all day long. Hell, the Warlock (which was a weak spellcaster that never ran out of spells) was probably their first real attempt at 'fixing' magic in D&D, which has long been problematic, is it has always overshadowed your mundane fighter types.
In 3ed or 3.5ed D&D, if you want to play a fighter (and you're optimizing your character), you play a spellcaster, and use spells to make yourself more human than the human.
At the San Diego Comicon this year I was a WOTC volunteer who was basically the 'Star Wars Saga Edition Guy' who got to explain the rules of Saga Edition to maybe 50 tables of people, running half hour games each time. Since Saga Edition is supposed to be real close to 4th edition, I'm probably as familiar as anyone with the hypothetical rules right now. Saga edition, in a nutshell... is okay. It removes your armor class and saving throws. Instead you have a joint AC/Save thing called Fort Defense, Reflex Defense and Will Defense, and the attacker makes all dice rolls (with the defense numbers normally 10 points higher than your old save, so a +5 reflex save would be a 15 reflex defense in the new system) so if I were to, say, fireball the party as a DM, I'd roll one d20 with my 10d6 fireball damage. If I got a 15 on the d20 'attack' roll, it would do full damage to everyone with a Reflex Defense of 15 or lower, and half damage to everyone higher. So you don't have to wait for 6 people to break out their dice, figure out their saving throw bonuses, etc. You just pitch the dice together, announce the result, and move on. A nice touch, though I'm a bit leery of running spells like Wail of the Banshee that way, as it will greatly increase the chance of TPKs -- we'll see if they keep one save for the party with that.
AC is now your Reflex Defense.
They have something called a condition track which runs concurrently with your hit points (you still have hit points -- Saga Edition is 90% the same as D20 rules). Any time you take more than your 'damage threshold' in damage (it's usually somewhere around a number between 15 to 20), you get a point of impairment, which adds a cumulative penalty to all your D20 rolls (-1, -2, -5, -10 KO), until you get knocked out at 5 points of impairment. So even if you have 200 hit points, if you take 20 damage 5 times in a combat, you'll be KOed, because they were bigger hits to you than 10 10 point hits.
The main thing that annoys me about the new system is that it is a little too generic. There's very little difference in the classes, with saves being almost totally revamped so that everyone's saves will be within 2 points of each other (your class save bonus only applies once, and you get the best of all classes that you multiclass in, and then progresses the same for everyone). Likewise, everyone gets a bonus to damage equal to half their class level. So a 20th level noble does the same damage with a blaster as a 20th level Jedi (3d6+10). The only difference in the classes are their 'special ability' talent trees, which work like in World of Warcraft. Essentially, every other level you get a new 'talent', many of which have prerequisites of other talents. So if you want the ability to reroll an attack roll once per day (a rogue ability) you might need the talent to reroll a skil
I managed to get into the site long enough to copy some of the files; they're available as a torrent here:
h =6455bdea4c06c4583302c452ed0363b06447a6e0
http://cw.enlightning.de:6969/stats.html?info_has
WARNING: The following product contains orcs, trolls, wizards and knights. Neither the author nor the publisher shall assume any explicit or implied responsibility for potential loss of sex, lunch money, or dignity. Prolonged use may result in permanent retention of "virgin" status.
Most rules books for RPGs explicitly say 'these rules only at the discretion of the GM', and they are right to do so. If a character is doing infinite damage every turn due to munchkining and slavish and/or badly twisted interpretations of some rules set, the GM is not doing his/her job, period. My favorite D&D system was 3rd ed, right out of the box (well, corebooks); needed few dice, easily scalable, removed most of the cruft from prior eds, and was easy to ad hoc or homebrew rules. When a book rule gave a counterintuitive mechanic for something, I or whoever else was GMing would craft a house rule that worked better. I have found that so long as the players trust that you are being fair and attempting for a fun game, they tend not to be crummy sports about the rules.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
Satan's game.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
People said the same damn thing about D&D, and then AD&D, and then second edition AD&D, and then D&D 3.0. "I'm not buying the new edition, I wasted more money than I can count on these [lame-ass over-priced useless] source books!"
A year or two after the new edition was out, they all usually break down and buy the new edition, sell off their old books to collectors or hobby stores, and move on.
Or you can be one of those old foggies who swears by the old edition, never upgrades, and then runs out of people to play with. But then, if you honestly bought every single 3.5 source book (seriously, why the hell would you possibly need all of those?), I imagine you have bigger problems than finding people to play with.
Runequest - where you can play a duck.
Forget the ducks. You can play a baboon.
Don't forget the "cults". When choosing a religion MEANS something to your character.
Yep. When Avalon Hill got it, they ruined it. Particularly if you've ever read the errata for their stuff. Lunar sorcery beats everything.
Battle magic was the best idea ever. And their hit chart was great, too. Lose a leg in combat? Well you're out of the fight (unless you're a scorpion man). But if your teammates surrender soon enough (and the enemy accepts surrender), you can be healed. Finally a combat system that doesn't encourage "fight to our last breath" scenes.
were you aiming for a funny mod?
help me fix this "Terrible" karma, please!
this might be the funniest post I've ever read on /.
oh how I wish I had mod points.
Linux Zealots: Smarter than Mac Zealots, but still zealots.
There's a pattern here that was also the same with DOS, Windows, Netscape, and perhaps others.
Version 1 was awful.
Version 2 was a little better.
Version 3 was excellent and stable.
Version 4 was big and bloated.
Version 5 fixed all the problems with version 4 that shouldn't have been made after version 3.
Of course, I played mostly 1ed and a little 2ed. I haven't played since the 3ed came out, but I always liked the 1ed rules with all the leftover nonsense from miniatures and wargames and stuff (1" = 10' indoors, but 30' outdoors).
To be honest I thought TSR was totally jumping the shark by the late 80's with all their "If it's not 'official', you can't use it." crap, and by 1992 or so most of the people I played with had moved out of town.
I really can't speak to WotC, but I thought of software given the comments I've read. "3.5 is stable" "3.5 is buggy"...
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I don't know why, but "hack their dong off" is the funniest phrase I've seen this week.
As per the mantra ...
1: Release base version
2: Make money
3: Release patched version
4: GOTO 2 and meanwhile ..
5: PROFIT !
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
Bah! Just play Timelords by BTRC instead.
No. I want one offtopic and six underrateds.
I really like the idea of a new D&D version. It's a chance to improve some of the imperfect rules in the last edition. For instance the fact that it's nearly impossible to create a fast moving dexterous fighter that has parity with a burly strength based one.
As far as people complaining about having to buy another version I sympathize but you don't have to buy the new version and WoTC shouldn't be forced not to fix the system just because some of us bought the previous version. I don't know if I will buy the new one (I have 3.5) but the next generation of gamers shouldn't be stuck with the imperfections of the system we played.
On the other hand I'm a bit worried about the online subscription part. The publication of feats and other rule changes in dragon was bad enough but an online subscription has even more of an official air about it and will give WoTC a very strong incentive to put overpowerful feats in the subscription. Hopefully, they will mostly just include story/background material and the occasional fix but we will have to wait and see.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Wizards is a terrible company and will not get a single cent from me.
I'll wait for bittorrent.
"Welcome to Slashdot!"
If he'd written it about a gelatinous cube eating his balls, he'd have earned the elusive "Keyboard of First Posting +5". The trick is to come up with a cliche that's actually on topic. He almost got it.
What with the D&D Tactics game for the PSP coming out just a few days ago. That made the decision for me to rent it instead of buy it. Not the brightest marketing folks..
Because there's one very good reason that my players and I are using 3.5ed right now instead of the 3ed that we bought all those books for.
I need some more 3.5 stuff. Maybe this will put a little more of it on ebay.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Maybe Wizards should have considered switching to Apache HTTPD instead of using Microsoft IIS before launching a campaign that gets more than half a dozen hits per second. Let's give them the message:
;-D
http://www.wizards.com/use_apache_httpd
I jump into the Rift.
--Lord Nimula
Comment removed based on user account deletion
....and using some 1'st edition rules and books too. I just think D&D has kinda lost its "magic" that made the original game. I never really got into 3'rd edition or 3.5 edition. It's not about rules, it's about gameplay and overall 'feel' that made D&D what it is. If you didn't like a rule - throw it out. if you want to change something, then change it. The heart of D&D has always been flexibility to adapt. updaing the rules ad-nauseum doesn't bring the original theme back. In fact it dilutes the game.
A "hit" was considered a hit that would cause damage. Physically touching your opponent with your weapon was not enough to cause damage. (this was covered in the rules)
That is why certain armor types were better against certain weapon types.
Piercing weapons had a bonus to hit plate type armor, but a penalty to chain type armors.
slashing weapons had the opposite.
Bludgeoning weapons would have a penalty for leather, and an even worse penalty for padded armor types. etc...
It was all covered in the first edition rulebook, and that was only like 80 pages long.
Linux Zealots: Smarter than Mac Zealots, but still zealots.
I like how WotC's idea of "revolutionary product delivery" is "We can sell them paper ... on computers!"
Granted, they are adding that online client "to 'supplement, not replace' meatspace play," and a client like that is something that me and my friends have been saying would be cool for years now, but ...
They're still just selling us paper, but on computers.
Two Wizards are crawling through a dungeon, killing the various monsters and taking their stuff. A fine time for all involved. Walking down the hallway, however, their torchlight shines upon two doors, with a grim-faced devil standing betwixt them.
The devil calls out. "Hear my words, adventurers. I present you with these two doors, the doors of Riaa and Jobs. You must choose one and move forward, otherwise, you shall perish."
The devil first gestures to the door on his left. "This is the door of the demon Riaa. He is legion, made of many, and seeks only to control and reap. He offers a wonderous treasure beyond imagination, yours for the taking, that lies just beyond his door. The gold will always be yours, as no one shall be able to take it from you."
Next, the devil gestures to his right. "This is the door of Jobs. Behind his door, you will find only more struggles, with no security to speak of."
The first Wizard, overcome by the same lust for wealth that drives many adventurers to the slaughter of innocent Orcs and Goblins, entered the door of Riaa. He entered the room beyond to find exactly the wonderous treasure promised- but also found the corpses of many other adventurers, for the room had no exits. He had suffocated himself, and was able to enjoy his new riches for only a short while.
The second Wizard, valuing experience more than mere wealth, entered the door of Jobs. And there, he found a tunnel, filled with mooks, loot, easy XP, which continued to even deeper, richer levels of the dungeon.
As I understand it, there is already enough brokenness in 3.5, why would we want to release a 4th version, where there is a very large chance they will release a literal ton of books and new abilities that will further contribute to the work a DM has to do to make sure the players are relatively balanced. Its tough enough having to spend several minutes going through each thing they want and making sure that its not some net plan to become the next pun pun.
Did someone say cake?
In the tips for GMs section, one tip said
In the solo adventure, one of the rooms was
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Yes, it's been fixed. Since at least 2000 or so, in fact, because 3rd ed does not have "THAC0" -- characters have an attack bonus that functions similarly. It represents how likely you are to damage somebody, not just to hit them. Yes, it's much easier to hit a guy in plate mail, but it's much harder to damage him.
The best role playing experience I had was Paranoia.
... because you are a mutant Commie traitor.
Since your character was going to die (all 6 clones) before the end of the adventure, you might as well enjoy yourself. No more level grind, just play and have fun.
Plus it was helped that the Computer (GM) and one of the players were brothers. So, siblings rivalry got turned into great game dynamics. BTW, in Paranoia the Computer is trying to kill you.
Real D&D players use the BOXED set! (Failed saving throw vs nostalgic ramblings...)
Blackmoor rules!
True D&D died when Ad&d started. Your only real option is is to find a copy the old red back basic set (and its additions) or use telnet or a decent terminal client and MUD.
I don't want to sound too much like some old man pining for the good ole days, but I think getting too caught up in the structure of the rules misses the point of an RPG. It's cooperative, structured storytelling. It's make believe with rules.
I agree. I actually conducted some really fun role playing long-distance with some friends when I was in the Army. We basically took turns writing each other's characters into stories. The rule was you couldn't kill off anyone else's PC, but you could kill off an NPC you had created. I'd write my friends' characters into cliffhangers, then one of them would continue the story, then another would step in. It was a great way to keep the momentum going until we got back together for some actual tabletop gaming. Some of the best "gaming" we ever did was just creating those stories.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Unfortunately, you just can't manage to get a grip on it. Maybe you should let the autistic, mentally handicapped kid be the DM, you have much less to try and think about as a player.
I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
Are you ready? So you are a melee class and have chosen heavy armour. Do you know why it is called HEAVY armour? That is right, because it is HEAVY.
So, your party spot an enemy coming towards you, what do you do? Rush in? Not so fast HEAVY armour user, don't you think you should put it on first? What, you were already wearing? For the entire 6 hour journey through the old forest? Oh well, lets see, how about a 50% reduction of all your stats for being exhausted?
So, wait several rounds while you put on your armour with the help of a NPC (You think you can put HEAVY armour on yourselve?) or go into battle as a wreck?
Okay you are entering combat finally, start the counter at 1. What counter you ask? Your exhaustion counter. You do not think you are going to last forever with a ton of steel hanging from your body do you? Ten rounds, that is your max before you are starting to loose it.
Ah, your hit, no worry, the armour absorbs the damage, BUT you do need to start counter2, the daze effect. You do not think you can keep being hit and not suffer at all do you? The ringing sound in your ears alone is at least 10% of your stats.
Also heavy armour tends to be very rigid, metals of the age just ain't the flexible, start counter3 to see when it will simply shatter.
GET THE PICTURE?
I am not even getting into the most basic interplay between your stats, how an agile person would be able to be more agile regardless of armour class, how strength would still be needed to be agile in heavy armour. (So your agility would limited by your strength NOT by your armour)
How a high intelligence/wisdom would mean you would be able to select better moves.
You could think up plenty of extra rules and ways in which stats interact and you could end up with a pretty realistic combat system. It would just take forever to do anything at all.
Take for instance damage, a broken rib is dangerous BUT not instantly lethal, a broken leg is the end for a melee fighter but a mage can cast sitting down and a ranger might just be able to fire a bow from one leg. Yet 99% of games give you nothing more then a simple health bar.
The D&D system is designed to be simple to learn, not require to many things to tracks and still be fun. No it ain't realistic but it "works".
Offcourse, if you then apply D&D rules to a computer game you are just taking the piss, a computer can keep track of countless figures and can compete even the most complex rules in an instant, D&D on a computer would be like using Deep Blue to play TicTacToe.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Sorry, THAC0 was introduced in 2nd ed... The original DM's guide had combat matrices for each class (pp 74-75) that had to be looked up constantly (hence being on the original DM's screen).
This sig intentionally left justified.
When gaming, I preferred the HERO system over GURPS, due to the way that HERO dealt with adding abilities to characters in a more balanced way, and letting the special effects of the the ability be just cosmetic.
But the thing which makes a game is the GM, and how well they can work the group. And a good GM is a rare find. But sadly, MMORGS are killing the tabletop roll playing IMO.
See my art -> http://herbevore.deviantart.com
The main point of the "d20 System" (which underlies 3E D&D from 7 years ago) is to get rid of things like THACO. In 3E, you always have some "bonus", add it to a rolled d20, and compare to an enemy's target number to determine success. See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theCoreMec hanic
o rAsDamageReduction.htm
The combat cycle is still attempting to get a hit, roll damage, and subtract from hit points. Armor does make you harder to hit, not reduce damage. Many people have tried the "damage reduction" variant, and the company officially published the alternative in more than one venue. However, the majority of people who tried it tend to come back thinking that it's too complicated for tabletop play (considering that it adds another statistic and another lookup-and-subtraction to every attack in combat). See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/arm
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Much the same may be said for hanging out on Slashdot, you know...
Part Time Philosopher, Oft Times Romantic, Full Time Unix Geek
Speaking of sex, I always wondered why there were no Upper Plane equivalent of Succubus. I mean, flirty fishing works and would be a perfect fit for Chaotic Good outsiders, so why don't they go about seducing blackguards away from evil or something ? A wink, kiss and some bedroom gymnastics could easily stop entire evil armies in their tracks.
In fact I'd say that the Balance requires such beings, unless of course sex is inherently evil in the DnD universe. I guess WotC is just too prudish to add them...
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
i miss thac0. Even though it was crazy it still had charm.
Balderdash!
Try out warhammer fantasy roleplay for a change. http://www.blackindustries.com/ . It has a faster and more fun rule system, which actually makes some sense. IMHO, the world is more fun too; darker, with a lot more humor.
You think you had it hard with marbles for dice and real dragons trying to eat you? PFFFt, you were pampered.
Why, When I played D&D, there were no dragons yet, and they hadn't even invented magic. To us the game was sci-fi!
NOW GIT OFF MAH LAWN!
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Why in the hell would wearing really good armor make you less likely to be hit??
Like its hard to hit a guy wearing full plate mail?
If anything, wearing heavy armor should make you easier to hit.
The armor should absorb damage, not make you less likely to be hit...
If you look back at medieval armor you'll find that good armor "deflected" blows while poor mans armor absorbed them. Although full plate was msotly for show and was obsoleted fairly quickly, it deflected most common strikes. Notice the odd angle on most armor. It might be for show but it's meant to make hitting it with a solid blow difficult. The more modern the armor the more angular and odd shaped it got.
Check here for a brief over view.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
So, is it a government conspiracy, a desperate last ditch attempt to stop teenagers from screwing eachother? ... or something even more sinister? du-duu-duuun.
Speaking from experience, if you are:
1) Intelligent enough to win a D&D tournament
2) Lucky enough with the dice to win a D&D tournament
3) Big and strong enough to literally bash through a wall
Then, yes, the one, single, supa-hot D&D honey will be all-up-ons. And lordy, lordy, will she ever be into cosplay, with more vinyl and leather than you can conceive of... super bonus round for fetish-addled roleplay freaks. Hot chicks love a fat geek, so long as he can kill a jock with his bare hands and understands the difference between her Sailor Moon costume and her Sailor Mars costume.
The rest of you will die alone.
Why would a new revision of the tabletop rules impact their online offering?
The differences between DDO and 3.5 are considerable.
Not quite, but close.
WoTC has provided an open source license that they call "open game license" (for, get this "open game content"). They have NOT provided the core books under this license.
What they have done however (and I applaud) is provide a vast majority of the core rules under the OGL. This is referred to as the SRD (System Reference Document). The SRD does not contain everything that the books do. In general, the books are more verbose, but the SRD relates the rules just as well. The SRD rarely says "why" (as the books occasionally do). I believe there are a rare few few key rules not covered in the SRD.
The best place to read the SRD? In my opinion it is at www.d20srd.org (no connection to myself whatsoever). Everything is HYPERLINKED! The site is amazing in terms of quick access to everything. It even includes spell and monster filters to help navigate those areas. This can make building adventures much easier at times. (Example: the SRD includes 5 Undead monsters between CR 5 and 15 who have a lawful alignment; beats flipping through the book and finding one or two.)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
I'm attacking the darkness!
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
There seem to be a lack of value in the new editions. I played when it was the 2nd ed rules, they seemed to hold out for what 10-12 years. How come the new rules hold so much less?
Visit http://www.crunzh.com/ for free software. Mac/Lin/Win
My laptop is about the size of the DMG alone, and a lot lighter than half a dozen rulebooks. It's also much faster to find something using full text search than by flipping through pages.
My biggest complaint with 3E was the lack of official e-book editions. From the widespread torrents, I'd guess a lot of other people had the same issue. Maybe WotC have gotten that clue they needed.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I'll agree that if you ignore the fact that D20 is a class based system, add many house rules, and have a good group and DM you can actually do something other than munchkin the game. But why not just use a different system if you want to really roleplay instead of rollplay?
Each gaming system has certain strengths and weaknesses, and D20's strength lies in its appeal to munchkins, rules lawyers, etc. Now, I'll also admit that there are some systems which manage to out munchking D20, Rifts comes to mind.
But I think the original poster's point stands: If you want to play something more than a hack and slash type game, you are vastly better off with a different system. For pure kick in the door type monster slaughters D20 isn't bad at all, you want a more nuanced gaming experience and you'll find that the rules begin to hold you back. I'll take GURPS, thanks. Now if only SJ games would do something like the OGL I'd be truly happy, and I think GURPS would benefit.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Despite my aversion to class based systems, I bought quite a bit of ED stuff, got a group together and we found it to be a very nice game. Mostly I liked the setting, but the rules worked well enough.
My "game I bought but never could play" was TORG.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
FUCKING NERDS
I *just* ordered a set of 3.5 books after getting back into the game. I started losing interest in the game around the time they introduced the bard class (I kind of felt they jumped the shark) but I was drawn back by my kids wanting to play chutes & ladders too many times.
The kids love it. They're natural explorers and this is their favorite game now. It's a good educational tool too. It's teaching them about the consequences of their actions as well as math and bartering.
I hated the 3.0 edition of D&D. It crippled the rather detailed world of D&D2 (i.e. AD&D) with its rich cultural and RP-able background into a hack'n slash orgy much like Diablo. It was geared away from sophisticated RP towards mindless slaughtering of mobs, character development meant "gather stuff" instead of actually developing your char.
Sure, the GM could lessen that effect, but still, what remained was that "character growth" was reduced to killing mobs left and right and looting. If you played actually by the rules, there was no room for "good role play" as something that could be rewarded sensibly.
Then 3.5 came out and, frankly, I hardly looked at it because after the 3.0 desaster, I didn't even want to take a closer look. It looks much like they heard the outcry, but I stick with AD&D.
Now, after everyone bought the books, we're hitting 4.0. So what now? Buy all those books yet again? Thanks, no. There simply is no need to. I can see that you have to stay current with games where you want to play tournaments and compete with people outside your group of friends, like in tabletop games or card games, but for role play? I choose the people I play with carefully. I don't need to compete with anyone outside of my group.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
How about that? Wizards wants to turn D&D into the new CCG at a higher premium! Keep pumping out new books with new editions and making each book dependent on another to keep those coffers filled.
I swear that if my current group goes all ape-shit over 4.o that I'm done. I've refused to buy 3.5 and 4.0 is the last straw.
I'm sure it won't matter much to WotC though as thousands of teens who don't remember the long life of AD&D 1&2 will think this is the normal progression will shell out tons of money for a new magazine (I refuse to call some of these supplements books) to get a whole 2 new classes that they'll probably never play.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
There's no security fixes in newer upgrades. :)
Just get AD&D 2nd ed. like everybody and have fun. no need of new books. it was fun that way. If one rule isnt good you throw it away. if you need a new rule you add it. But that's rare, AD&D 2nd ed was covering many things and really nice already. Never had a "balance" problem either with it. Probably because we threw away senseless stuff from time to time or the GM simply improvised stuff
Who cares about D&D when there's a whole new, revamped edition of TRAVELLER coming out in a few months?
I'll see your Fireball Spell and raise you one FGMP-15.
It's good to know Slashdot allows content like this when someone clicks on a story.
Ok, seriously, if you're a pen and paper gamer, who has a good group that plays well together, then honestly, you don't likely need to buy a new version of the rules. I mean, we had a group of people who had all gotten 3.0, whined about a few things, and many just looked at the SRD when 3.5 came out to see some class fixes and so on. No big deal.
But let's say we're not just looking at my home campaign playing with my friends. Let's say we're looking at the Living Campaigns, in which broken rules are important. Or we're looking at computer games and MMORPGs. Now fixing the rules is really important. I loved Neverwinter Nights, and I've enjoyed NWN2, but so much has felt limited at times. Well, you can't go into certain areas of gaming so well when the rules break down.
I know a LOT of people are upset at the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. I honestly would love to see a release on DVD of the whole series of Dungeon, and again, I could dare say I would like to see an updated release of Dragon. But I also know people in publishing, and I know it's gotten a lot tougher to stay competitive. I am happy to see the idea that when I buy a hardcover, which I enjoy to read, that I will be able to get digital access to it. I'm much happier when I go to a gaming session and can take my laptop with me and grab the information that way. I've got a copy of the SRD on my machine for that reason.
A lot of people seem to be really upset about the whole DRM issues, and I can't say I blame them. DRM is frustrating. Nothing like the fun and joy if I happen to have three different machines that I use, and let's say my two laptops I might take for gaming are running OSX and Ubuntu. I much prefer, as seen in another Slashdot article today, the idea of watermarking. Hey, come, contact me about my watermarked copy, and I can show you my license. No worries.
People get pissy when they feel they are being taken advantage of. Well, seriously, no one forced you to buy Magic of Incarnum at full retail price. I certainly didn't. (It's peripherally interesting, but I'm glad I only paid five buck for it.) In many ways, the jump from 3.0 to 3.5 was a little silly, but I didn't need to buy all new books. I have a feeling that 4.0 will result in some good changes, and some of my rules-lawyers friends will have to rethink their min-max strategies again, but it won't be anything earth-shattering. As long as nobody sends up back to THAC0 and negative ACs, I think we'll survive.
If WotC sends me some preview copies, I'll be sure to review and let you know what's goofy and what's not.
Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
I still prefer 2nd Ed AD&D, and after that 1st ed. (Yes, I have the books.)
Since you can get entire 3.0 and 3.5 book collections in PDF on Bit Torrent, it only makes sense for them to make some changes. Most D&D geeks are also computer nerds these days, so their revenue stream from the books has probably died out. Time for a change so people who are hooked feel compelled to buy the new stuff. It would be nice if they would start releasing adventures in a computer format so the DM could just set their laptop in front of them and run the game. Have all the dice tools, tables with quick links, etc. I think games would run a lot smoother than having everyone grab their books and spending five minutes looking up some obscure reference. They should put out a Wiki on CD with all the rules.
Are you worried you can't get new campaign books for 3rd edition? Tell that to the hoards of people who still play 2nd ed with campaigns that are, wait for it now... completely original. And they still have fun!
So if your group wants to update to 4th edition, great. If you want to stick to 3rd, or 2nd or God forbid play the original game rules, then you can certainly do it! I haven't been able to play much since my old group is all over the country, so I'm hoping the virtual tabletop might be a good way to bring us back together. This is a good thing.
frog blast the vent core
It's super funny (only for those "in the know" I think) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
While the combat system was an oversimplification of combat mechanics, established players understood that a "hit" was not merely physical contact, but rather physical contact that conveyed damage to the target. After some really fun game sessions, my buddies and I would often write (or simply re-tell) the stories of the battles--full of glancing blows, hits, misses, and then those final blows that decimated the enemy (i.e., the places in the game where we rolled three "natural 20s" in a row for uber-damage).
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Based, I think, on the Twilight 2000 rules, my friends and I gave up when we discovered that firing a fully automatic weapon required a separate to-hit roll for each bullet (modified by the first to-hit roll), a location roll for each bullet that hit, etc, at least I think that was how it worked, we got the game back in 199X so its been a while.
I liked the setting, and the suggestion in the rule book that the GM read tabloids for adventure ideas was fantastic, but in the end we concluded that it'd require a supercomputer to deal with combat so we played Call of Cthulu instead.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
On a related note, Windows 3.1 FTW. The old days ruled!
Dude, where's my packet?
You don't need to be "in-the-know," so long as you have a basic understanding of the rules, the premise, stuff like that.
Otherwise, I would've given up on it strips upon strips ago.
I was disheartened when they dropped the slogan, "Products of your imagination". I pretty sure that the new slogan is, "Products that fill our bank account". :(
You seem to have missed the bit in first edition where combat is abstract, so a 'hit' doesn't mean a literal hit, and damage doesn't mean literally being cut with a sword. A hit means inflicting damage, where damage is a combination of injury and exhaustion.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
I have, nothing special, just the dutch draft system, but I can tell you that a typical military pack is NOT light. Carrying a full pack on your back WILL leave you exhausted at the end of a long march. Sure a trained soldier/warrior will be able to do it, BUT not without a stat hit. Remember we are after realism, and if you think someone who has just marched through a forest for the day wearing a full combat outfit is as fresh as a person who hasn't, you must be superman.
If you believe that soldiers wore their full equipment all the time because of ease of transportation I suggest you read up on tactics. You can do this, IF you want your soldiers exhausted when they reach wherever they are going. Fine if that is a friendly camp, but if it is the frontlines. This is known from roman times with accounts from soldiers on the difference between their marching equipment and their combat equipment.
It has always been basic strategy to make sure that your own soldiers do NOT have to march for long, while forcing the enemy too, to ensure that your own troops are the freshest and will therefore have the best chances of winning. This is such basic stuff I can't believe I even have to convince someone of it.
For your other points about armour I give you a bit, but I would really like to give you a modern helment, fully padded and be allowed to hit you with baseball bat a couple of times. If you are not affected by that, well again, nice to meet you superman. If fully trained boxers are wobbly after being hit in the head by PADDED gloves, then so will you be.
Padding spreads out the blow, it does NOT completly absorb it. Again, try some real world experience, like boxing, even with a helmet on you will feel it if you are hit repeatedly.
You have some intresting theory, and prove me wrong on some cases but I get the feeling you haven't actually ever experienced real world situations like wearing heavy equipment or fighting.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Um, play Runequest? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runequest
"The game's combat system was designed in an attempt to use what its creater, Steve Perrin, had experienced through live-action combat with the Society for Creative Anachronism. An attack is rolled using percentile dice (a 10 sided die, twice, to create numbers between 01-99, and 00 counts as 100). If your skill level is equal to or higher than the number rolled, you have hit your target. The defender has the chance to try to avoid the blow or parry it, again determined with percentile dice. For very low rolls there was a system of critical hits (armour protection negated), or for certain weapons a chance to 'impale' (double damage). Attackers always had a chance of missing (if they rolled 96% or above). They also had a very small chance of Fumbling, where something unfortunate happened to the attacker, such as losing a piece of equipment, falling over or even causing damage to themselves or friends. (These outcomes were randomly determined following the botched attack roll.)
A key component of the RuneQuest combat system was hit location. Successful attacks were allocated randomly to a part of the target's body. (Or else a particular part could be aimed at with a reduced chance to hit.) Combined with the inate chance of everyone to hit, as well as the critical/impale system, this meant that even the most powerful character could be disabled and killed by a weak opponent. For example, a lucky hit against a leg, weapon arm or head could render a character defenceless or severely limited in their attack.
The original versions of RuneQuest were known for making most levels of magic notably weaker than in other games, at least in its ability to directly attack rather than enhance a warrior's ability. Magical attack was resolved with a comparison between the attacker's and the target's Power provided an single percentile chance of the spell working.
As a result, combat in RuneQuest became more detailed, slower and always in some ways riskier than most other RPGs. This often meant play was not as combat focused as other RPGs."
Not mentioned explicitly above, each location is armored so that armor is subtracted from the damage applied to result in the damage actually taken by the location. ex: Broadsword is d8+1 dmg (plus a strength bonus of 0 to generally 1d6 or 2d6 for the biggest, strongest humans), armor is 1 for soft leather, up to 12 for plate.
Try it!
But back On-topic: Interestingly, I had a conversation years ago with Monte Cook in which he'd mentioned that one or more of the lead 3rd edition editors was a big fan of RQ and you can see it in umpteen ways. It *appears* from the description above that some of the more obvious RQ elements are being diluted.
-Styopa
You got older.
;)
OTOH I remember complying when they came out with ADnD. Elves and Dwarfs are a class damn it!
Maybe you need to change to a simpler system, or the type of roleplaying.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
In support of Weedlekin's comments - There's an interesting book called "Warriors of God" by James Reston Jr. It's about Richard the Lionheart and Saladin in the Third Crusade. In this book, there is a description of Richard's actions at a battle near the town of Jaffa. The Christian forces were out numbered and defeat seemed almost certain. However, Richard almost single handedly turned the battle.
He was an indestructible killing machine in his armor. Later in the battle, there were so many arrows stuck in his armor that "he looked like a porcupine". At another point he was completely surrounded by enemies "and yet emerged from a pile of dead unscathed". Richard's skill and physical abilities combined with his armor made him an almost supernatural force that the Muslim fighters learned to give a wide berth.
At the battles outset, the Muslims out numbered the English 4 to 1. However the lightly armor Muslim fighter were no match for Richard and the other armored knight of his party. By the end of the day the Muslims had lost 700 men, while the Crusdader had lost only 2 dead and a number of wounded.
Beyond this illustration of armored men in battle, it's a facinating book. I highly recommend it as both an entertaining and informative read.
I'm very much looking forward to rolling the dice to see if I'm getting drunk
Well I find many of the jokes deal with the rules, so for those who have never played it, I don't see how it'd be funny. I know, for me I'm on the 407 or so and I just laugh as much or more as I did in the first ones, it hasn't lost its magic
I could be wrong but I think Unearthed Acana came out to normalize and add all the stuff from Dragon Magazine. I doubt it's a coincidence that Gary Gygax was outmanuevered out of TSR around the time Version 2 was being written.
Read the early pages of the Dungeon Masters GUIDE - Pre 3.0
These are guidelines and the DM has the right to change anything or use anything he wants. The only thing for a DM to do is apply what he wants consistently.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BF
WFRP 1st Edition is awesome. I haven't delved too deep into 2nd Edition, but the city/area supplements are very nice.
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2nd edition is a huge improvement. The game becomes faster and 'career hopping' is no longer the case for experienced non-mages. Archers also pack significantly more punch in this edition, making the targeteer a viabe advanced career.
"Dungeons and Dragons", at least without the capitalization, was the common name for a group of associated games before that nlank-dashed company stole the name.
I suppose that steal isn't quite the right verb, but it's nearly right. Before they stole it, it was widely used. Now that they have stolen it, you can't use it any more. Sounds like stealing to me.
The technique was quite simple. They formed a company and issued a game using a commonly used term for the game. Then they sued anyone else who used the term. Unless that person looked able to defend themselves, in which case they'd find another victim. (Remind you of another company? There are several who've used this basic approach.)
I didn't like it when Mozilla claim-jumped the Firebird database project's name. Well, they eventually renamed it to FireFox. Most companies, however, just muscle in. This is the "dungeons and dragons" is the first instance where I noticed that happening. I'd thank them for sensitizing me, but I'm still mad at them.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I was introduced to TSR's D&D and AD&D in the late seventies while in school, so it only affected my dignity as a pre-teen and I was okay with that. Of course, having a bunch of friends that played meant that I played ocassionally through my teens as well. My parents no doubt approved of this method of birth control.
Coincidentally, I worked at WotC when they aquired TSR, but had long ago stopped playing D&D since I had no time as a working professional and my D&D friends had scattered to the winds after High School. I left WotC before they were acquired by Hasbro, but cannot imagine that move was good for the product.
Now I'm a certified adult with job, mortgage, wife, kids, etc. and cannot imagine having time to play D&D. My kids aren't playing it. They're into Madden '08 and Guitar Hero II or sports outside. They'll ride a bike, surf the web^Wmyspace, chat with friends or play video games.
So who exactly is the core audience for this product? And why did it need to get rev'd into what is apparently a very different game from the story-telling enterprise it was thirty years ago?
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
A 'hit' is a hit that causes damage. So more armor makes it difficult to cause a damaging hit, or you need to aim for an unarmored part. In third edition this was sort of fixed the way you would think. What you are describing is called a 'touch attack', armor doesn't stop it and actually can make you easier to hit by lowering your dexterity bonus.
... and takes half damage.
I have never role-played D&D or equivalent in my life. Some of the jokes take a bit of puzzling out, or go over my head, but mostly OotS is just funny, gripping or touching. I turned into a total fanboy and bought the books (with transatlantic shipping) after reading all the strips online. Then I converted my wife, who has never been near an RPG either.
Order of the Stick is emphatically not just for those who get the arcane D&D jokes. From an outsider's perspective, the games sound kinda fun, but I'm not particularly interested in them except as inspiration for the comic.
Retro is all the vogue these days, and this is just off the top of my head:
- Basic Fantasy RPG (OGL; d20/Basic D&D hybrid)
- Labyrinth Lord (OGL; Basic/Expert D&D remake)
- OSRIC (OGL; AD&D 1e remake)
- Castles & Crusades (d20/AD&D hybrid)
- Mazes & Minotaurs (1974 style D&D with a twist)
- Dungeon Squad (super-simplified *D&D)
- Tunnels & Trolls 7e (HELL YES!)
Needless to say, there are many choices out there beyond Hasbro-brand D&D...
I remember it from the 90s as well... it's like the interactive fiction version of goatse.
Another classic story I vaguely recall involves a guy masturbating while reading a book about sex with midgets. He then proceeds to do some coke and start hacksawing his leg. When that doesn't work, he grabs a chainsaw, amputates his leg, and shoves it up his ass before having an insane orgasm. Anybody else remember it? I've tried googling but amputee midget masturbation porn seems to be a popular fetish.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Fuck, fuck, fuck! Now I'm going to have to go through that whole thing again where I tell my friends I don't fancy DnD, and they're all like, "But that was last edition!" and then they rope me into playing the new edition and I hate it, too. Fuck!
Well It didn't work too well for Raistlin Majere... his battles with the Gods of Krynn to take thier place destroyed the world and then he couldn't create anything without them. God of a dead world! Fun...
Interesting. I will have to delve into our GM's cache of 2e stuff.
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Eberron is by far my favorite of the campaign settings TSR/WotC has ever produced (Dark Sun being my second favorite and FR my third). I loved that they set DDO in Eberron. However, Turbine killed DDO by not listening to alpha&beta testers - each and every patch during beta made it less and less like D&D (their one selling point).