Environmental DVD Wrecks Apple Drives

FST777 writes "The British Mail on Sunday published its latest DVD giveaway on the EcoDisc, a thin and bendable DVD format that is supposed to be more environmentally-friendly than regular DVDs. Despite the clear warning against using them in Apple slot drives, some Mac users decided to give it a go. The result? A brisk trade for repair shops in the UK. 'The EcoDisc's manufacturer, ODS, insists the disc won't break drives. "We've produced over ten million of these discs — we've had less than a dozen phone calls," says managing director, Ray Wheeler. "There are ways to get the discs out." Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum." He claims the EcoDisc should work in other types of slot-loading drive, although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3.'"

Comments

Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Bryansix]

Just throw the whole computer out and buy a new one!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[ShieldW0lf]

Simple Fixes for Simple People.

Who takes an unknown disc that they find in a newspaper and sticks it into their machine without so much as reading the cover? It says right on the thing, don't use it in a Mac. Then they want to complain?

Bunch of Flakes.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[morgan_greywolf]

Just throw the whole computer out and buy a new one! I realize that you're trying to be funny, but in all seriousness, slot-loading drives that don't conform to the DVD Forum standard were a very, very bad idea on Apple's part. Fortunately for Mac fans, not all Macs have these slot-loading drives.

I don't imagine anyone's going to trash their Mac for a few EcoDiscs, but still, it's a bit unsettling that the drives don't properly conform to standard.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[snowraver1]

I don't know if you have noticed or not, but many CDs that are distributed today do not contain the "Compact Disk" logo. Back when DRM started, manufacturers started putting blank sectors and other stuff to try to thwart copying. Poeople started complaining about this as those disks no longer conformed to the "Compact Disk" Specification.

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo, going under the assumtion that if is was the same size as a CD and had a shiny bottom, that people would put it in thier CD players, and people did just that.

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom. If I put it in my computer something happens."

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

This is exactly why I have never bought an apple product (was given my iPod). They don't abide by standards. They are just like Microsoft in that sense except with a cult following.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[snowraver1]

Does you mom know about that Sony rootkit? How about your sister? Just because everyone on /. knows about does not mean that it is common knowledge.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[JDHannan]

Why did you feel the need to qualify your ownership of an iPod, when you posted as an anonymous coward anyway?

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[hcmtnbiker]

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo, going under the assumtion that if is was the same size as a CD and had a shiny bottom, that people would put it in thier CD players, and people did just that.

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom. If I put it in my computer something happens."

As a matter of fact, that pretty much is the definition of a Compact Disc(c). Compact Disk does include such things as discs with SecuROM and other DRM. But for the most part the standard is only what the disc is physically, not what's on it. The main reason people stopped with the Compact Disc(c) logo, is they had to shovel off a couple pennies to Sony each time they printed it, and that wasn't worth it.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[falcon5768]

Years ago my uncle related a story to my father and I about his work at tech support for Data-Com warehouse, which one season jumped drastically. See the company as a whole (Macwarehouse, PCwarehouse, etc) started as a gift bundling in floppies that where calculators in disguised.

Sure enough hundreds of misguided buyers put said disks into their floppy dirves which then broke.

So to answer your question, hundreds if not thousands of idiots would take a disk from their paper and stick it into their drives without a thought to the damage they could cause.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Why did you feel the need to qualify your ownership of an iPod, when you posted as an anonymous coward anyway? Maybe because he's just telling the truth. Frankly, if I were criticizing Apple, no matter how legitimate the complaint is, I'd post anonymously too. Case in point: The guy says Apple doesn't abide by standards, your reply is an unrelated nitpick about his post.

I'll bet his post has a -1 by the end of the day.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[MacColossus]

Do not throw the computer in the trash. This article is about being environmentally friendly. Contact me to ship your Mac to me for "recycling".

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if you have noticed or not, but many CDs that are distributed today do not contain the "Compact Disk" logo. Back when DRM started, manufacturers started putting blank sectors and other stuff to try to thwart copying. Poeople started complaining about this as those disks no longer conformed to the "Compact Disk" Specification.

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo, going under the assumtion that if is was the same size as a CD and had a shiny bottom, that people would put it in thier CD players, and people did just that.

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom. If I put it in my computer something happens."
----------

OH SNAP, I just copied your whole comment! Now what?

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[MacColossus]

Macs use slot loading panasonic (matsushita) and LG drives. It's not like they are some bastardized proprietary drive. I've ordered replacement's from Newegg when out of warranty.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[ShieldW0lf]

Does you mom know about that Sony rootkit? How about your sister?

She doesn't know it was a rootkit, but she knows there was something about music cds you buy from the store putting a virus on your computer, because it was in newspapers and on television around the world.

Give it a rest with the attempted justifications. The disc was specifically labeled. It didn't even say "Not suitable for PCs", which might confuse Mac users who think their machines are made of Steve Job's semen imbued with life by God above. It specifically said "Don't put this in your fucking Mac" and it had a picture because Mac users can't understand things that don't have pictures.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[ShieldW0lf]

As a matter of fact, that pretty much is the definition of a Compact Disc(c). Compact Disk does include such things as discs with SecuROM and other DRM. But for the most part the standard is only what the disc is physically, not what's on it. The main reason people stopped with the Compact Disc(c) logo, is they had to shovel off a couple pennies to Sony each time they printed it, and that wasn't worth it.

Compact Discs have to adhere to a standard that allows them to be read with standard equipment, otherwise, I could take this record and trim it with scissors and call it a compact disc. DRM is not a part of the compact disc standard, therefore, if some circular disc of metal and plastic has DRM, it's not a compact disc, and won't work like a compact disc, and isn't permitted to be sold as a compact disc.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[CodeBuster]

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom. If I put it in my computer something happens." Ooooh! oooh! Look at the shiny things! ooohh...shiny.

Yes indeed, if it can be done then it is a sure bet that some user somewhere will do it. However, the enforcement of the CD logo program still has value for those of us in the know because lack of the logo cues us into the fact that the disk probably has some sort of DRM or other form of skulduggery going on so that we can avoid it or at least take precautions (like turning off auto-play or holding down the shift key or getting out the trusty old Sharpie). All external data sources, like user input, should be considered evil and not trustworthy and treated accordingly with basic precautions.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[CastrTroy]

If Apple's slot drives don't abide by standards, then neither do most other car CD players, nor does the Wii.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Toveling]

You refuse to buy Apple products because they use DVD drives that don't accept eco-friendly DVDs found in British newspapers? I don't think Apple is hurting because of your ethical boycott...

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom.

What, my nutsack that I've been polishing on your chin?

If I put it in my computer something happens."

That doesn't go there. Ever, no matter how warm and inviting the case seems.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[sexconker]

A compact disc is a physical thing.
The logo that was removed was the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" (CD-DA) logo.
Redbook (used for Audio CDs) is a standard.

A CD is a round flat disc with a reflective layer and some pits pressed into it that can be read with a laser with a wavelength of about 780 nanometers. CD defines the physical nature of the disc.

DRM is not part of the CD standard because it is not part of the physical aspect of the CD.
(Weak sectors are a bit of a grey area. The CD is physically a CD, with defects. The DRM is still done logically.)

Until Sony starts shipping CDs with thumb print readers on the top side, they can still call it a CD.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Krishnoid]

something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom

Hey, this guy hasn't been a CD since before his first birthday!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Here, Apple is just using drives made by other companies. There's nothing special about the drives themselves.

Besides, it's another "pot kettle black" situation. If they're really worried about DVD Forum specs, then what about this non-conforming disc that they expect people to put into their drives.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Chris Mattern]

Way to not even read the summary, which stated that those kind of slot loaders can be built to conform to the standards, but that Apple didn't do it.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Well and that's exactly what they got: "If I put it in my computer something happens."

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[recharged95]

Remember Mac users are invincible. They goto genius bars for complex issues! Just because it says don't use it, if they think it (Think!), it will work.

Flame on, Troll on. Thanks.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[FatMacDaddy]

I believe it is Philips that controls the CD standard and not Sony. Also, I'm pretty sure DRM in no way is part of a CD standard. That, in fact, is why labels like Sony were forced to stop calling their DRM-laden discs CDs.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[ShieldW0lf]

You are just plain wrong. It is illegal for them to call it a CD. There are no new CDs for sale on Amazon. Look for them, check the images of the product front and back. You won't find them. And the reason why you can't find them is because it has already been judged to be a fraudulent act to label what are being sold these days as CDs.

They are not CDs. They are not called CDs, they are not labeled CDs, they are materially NOT CDs. None of the babble you put forth about how everyone is ignorant and assumes means nothing at all.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[pegr]

You should see the looks I get at Barnes & Noble when I check out with a CD... "May I have your assurance that this product is a CD?" I do it so that if I find the disk is boogered up with DRM, I can return it with the claim, "I was assured that this product is a CD, and it clearly isn't!"

I never have gotten one that had DRM, so thusfar it has been for naught...

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[sexconker]

Wow, you're an idiot.
There is a big difference between CD-DA and a CD.

Copied straight from wikipedia (which I hate, but /. loves):

The Red Book audio specification, except for a simple 'anti-copy' bit in the subcode, does not include any serious copy protection mechanism. Starting in early 2002, attempts were made by record companies to market "copy-protected" non-standard compact discs, which cannot be ripped (copied) to hard drives or easily converted to MP3s. One major drawback to these copy-protected discs is that most will not play on computer CD-ROM drives, as well as some standalone CD players that use CD-ROM mechanisms. Philips has stated that such discs are not permitted to bear the trademarked Compact Disc Digital Audio logo because they violate the Red Book specification. Moreover, there has been great public outcry over copy-protected discs because many see it as a threat to fair use. Numerous copy-protection systems have been countered by readily-available, often free, software.

They cannot use the COMPACT DISC DIGITAL AUDIO logo.
They are still CDs.

A CD is any plastic disc with pits on a reflective layer physically organized in a manner conforming to the requirements set forth by Philips and Sony. If I buy Britney's latest "CD" at the store, guess what. It really is a CD.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[necro2607]

It specifically said "Don't put this in your fucking Mac"

Haha holy shit, you're joking right???

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

It specifically said "Don't put this in your fucking Mac" Oh, I so want to buy labels like this and put them on Mac-users' dicks ...

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Idarubicin]

Who takes an unknown disc that they find in a newspaper and sticks it into their machine without so much as reading the cover? It says right on the thing, don't use it in a Mac. Then they want to complain?

You're right. Someone saw something that looked like a DVD, and treated it like a DVD. The fools. (The warning on the disc was, apparently, the entirely clear and obvious phrase "NO APPLE SLOT IN DRIVE" in the bottom corner of the label. You did look at the article, right?)

Tomorrow I'm going to leave a platter of poisoned brownies in the lunchroom at work, along with a big sign saying "BROWNIES". It's all on the up-and-up as long as I leave a "NO MOUTH FOOD" label in the bottom corner of the sign, right? I can't wait to see how many suckers I can catch. Ha ha!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[v1]

Apple does adhere to standards. Look at scsi, ATA, sata, bluetooth, usb, firewire, the list goes on and on. It's pretty rare to find a bit of hardware that is not fundamentally compatible with mac. The last time I heard of an example was when the new powermac g5's came out with their internal sata drives, that some large western digital drives did not work with them. Turned out to be a problem with WD not adhering to the standards in a way that most other manufacturers flubbed on and got away with, and so apple was one of the few that truly DID adhere to the SATA standard. WD has since fixed their firmware. (you don't dot your i or cross your t? ok we're not playing ball.)

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[the_B0fh]

I could have sworn that my shiny on one side round flat disc with reflective layer and some pits pressed into it that can be read with a laser with a wavelength of about 780 nanometers was called a CDR.

What a moron - stop making up your own definitions.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[sexconker]

Your disc has pits burned into it, and is made with a dye, not a thin foil.
Sorry.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[fatphil]

DRM is irrelevant. The thing that makes those disks not permitted to use the logo is that they do not adhere to the red book specification for error recovery on the read signal. Assuming a 10^-3 bit read error rate, there should be less than 10^-9 bit error rate in the decoded signal due to the various error correction mechanisms. These non-CDs do not have that same property. The fact that this buggering of the recorded signal is done for DRM ends isn't actually important at all.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[fatphil]

It's simply missing a single dash between 'slot' and 'in'. However, it is nonsense as printed. The fact that it's nonsense might provoke me to try and work out what was supposed to be written. Dropping the word 'in' would give me the answer quite quickly.

However, I tend to be surrounded by people who aren't native English speakers, so I perform this kind of error correction almost instinctively.

It's easier to just think that no-one actually saw the warning.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Wikipedia is wrong. Probably because some astroturfers made it wrong.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[mr_matticus]

The MacBook Pro uses a Matsushita UJ-857E DVD-RW drive. This is basically the UJ-85JE (Matsushita is Panasonic). This drive is used in a number of applications.

Floppy DVDs don't go in slot-loading drives. Apple is the highest-profile user of such drives. It's just doublespeak to claim that it's "Apple" slot-load drives that are affected. A quick search shows only 230 results for '"dvd forum" +ejection system'--the top results, of course, referring to this article, and the others referring to the emergency eject function (i.e. the paperclip hole). That is the "DVD Forum approved ejection system" and it is fundamentally incompatible with a slot drive--there's no tray to pull out manually even if it had such a trigger. Further, Matsushita is one of the four largest members of the DVD Forum.

Apple neither designed, engineered, nor manufactured the device, so while it's true Apple didn't build a device to comply with "standards", it's a tautology. There is no possible way for the statement to be UNtrue. The only way to have a "DVD Forum approved" ejection system is to have a tray drive.

Way to take the bait hook, line, and sinker, though.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[that this is not und]

No, ship it to ME. My newest Mac is a beige G3 and I'm due for a new one.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[fatphil]

Incorrect logic. Incorrect conclusion.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[ShieldW0lf]

A CD is a piece of plastic that meets a standard. Your ranting doesn't change anything. They're not CDs, they don't play in CD players, and if they get caught calling them CDs, they get charged with fraud. Your arguments have all been made, in court, and those arguments LOST. It's really that cut and dried, and none of your attempts to split hairs change a thing. You can call it a coaster if you want, but legally, you can't call it a CD.

If it doesn't have the "CD" logo on the label, it's because it isn't.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[MacColossus]

In that case, ship it to the guy with the G3. I was just going to sell them on ebay. I love how Macs retain their value.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

What's with the angsty-teen mac-user hating? Knock it off, it's fucking stupid AND unbecoming.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Andy by the way, the money is shoveled to Phillips, not Sony.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[WK2]

The warning on the disc was, apparently, the entirely clear and obvious phrase "NO APPLE SLOT IN DRIVE" in the bottom corner of the label...Tomorrow I'm going to leave a platter of poisoned brownies in the lunchroom at work, along with a big sign saying "BROWNIES". It's all on the up-and-up as long as I leave a "NO MOUTH FOOD" label in the bottom corner of the sign, right?

"NO MOUTH FOOD" is too clear. "NO APPLE SLOT IN DRIVE" would be more analogous to "NO MOUTH IN HEAD".

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

20% Overrated. Those Apple fanbois even know how to abuse the moderation system while avoiding meta-moderation.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Lurker]

The disc was specifically labeled. It didn't even say "Not suitable for PCs", which might confuse Mac users who think their machines are made of Steve Job's semen imbued with life by God above. It specifically said "Don't put this in your fucking Mac" and it had a picture because Mac users can't understand things that don't have pictures.

Right you are sir, and, as a Mac user, let me be the first to say it with a picture: http://www.textfiles.com/art/afinger.txt

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[mpe]

You're right. Someone saw something that looked like a DVD, and treated it like a DVD. The fools. (The warning on the disc was, apparently, the entirely clear and obvious phrase "NO APPLE SLOT IN DRIVE" in the bottom corner of the label. You did look at the article, right?)

The "warning" was actually less than the size of a postage stamp. It's also entirely possible for someone to remove the disk from the sleave without looking at the back. Did the actual disk have such a warning on it?

Tomorrow I'm going to leave a platter of poisoned brownies in the lunchroom at work, along with a big sign saying "BROWNIES". It's all on the up-and-up as long as I leave a "NO MOUTH FOOD" label in the bottom corner of the sign, right?

You'd probably want to put your warning on the back of the sign and ensure it is no larger than 10x20mm

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[sledge_hmmer]

RTFA?...you must be new around here!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Novus]

A CD is any plastic disc with pits on a reflective layer physically organized in a manner conforming to the requirements set forth by Philips and Sony. If I buy Britney's latest "CD" at the store, guess what. It really is a CD.

Actually, there is no separate standard for CDs themselves; IEC 908 (Red Book or the revised IEC 60908) specifies the whole thing from physical layer to data format. Similarly, ISO/IEC 10149 (Yellow Book, ECMA-130) specifies CD-ROM, referencing Red Book for audio tracks.

This raises the question of whether the term "compact disc" can be used to describe something that only adheres to part of IEC 908. I think not.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey insane person, you should sue Amazon, because they call them CDs, and they're CDs in common spoken usage, and if you say "CDs" people think "shiny plastic things with digital information on them". Try going to a super-store and asking where the CDs are, people will generically refer you to the audio department. You don't understand how language works.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[sexconker]

So you're arguing that the CD-DA standard, and the CD-ROM standard, share things in common, relating to the physical structure of the disc.

I agree.

The thing in common is the CD part.
CD-DA is an audio CD.
CD-ROM is a data CD.

CD is the physical compact disc, the common part of both standards, and the common part in both labels, and the common part in both acronyms.

But hey - lets ask the scientists who invented it.

What the hell do some people want? Zombie Jesus and Steven Hawking could come down to /. and say that the Earth is roughly spherical, and people would bitch.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't know if you have noticed or not, but many CDs that are distributed today do not contain the "Compact Disk" logo."

          Thanks to Philips -- seriously, thanks Philips. Apparently, producers initially WERE going to label the non-standard, DRM-damaged disks as CDs, and Philips told them unambiguously that they were NOT CDs, and they were absolutely not permitted to label these disks as such.

          On an unrelated rant, Macs seem to have, bar none, THE WORST optical drives of any vendor I have ever seen. Where I work, they seem to have an over 90% failure rate in terms of actually being able to make it through a whole CD or DVD without either 1) not reading a burned disk at all (which reads fine in any other drive.. it's not the disks being badly burned in other words) or 2) reading part way and THEN flaking out, presumably due to heat.

But it helps the earth

[Kohath]

It wrecks your drive, but it's good for the earth. Sounds normal for environmentalism. Sure it makes your life worse, but think of how much it helps the earth!

Re:But it helps the earth

[xannash]

It wrecks your drive, but it's good for the earth

But it's ultimately bad for the earth because you have to get a new drive to replace the old drive that was ruined, which is then dumped, causing demand to go up, increasing global warming, bringing earth even closer to Armageddon, after which only cockroaches and old Honda trail bikes will exist, the few humans that do remain will be abducted by aliens and forced into slavery in some asteroid mine in the Omega galaxy.

Re:But it helps the earth

[toadlife]

I suddenly have imagery of a giant cockroach with a shotgun strapped to it's back riding though he desert on an old Honda trail bike.

Re:But it helps the earth

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, cockroach kills you!

apple slot loader

[sankekur]

They do not work very well with anything that even slightly varies from a regular CD/DVD. At the high school I used to work at, kids and teachers would put the business card, heart shaped and all kinds of things in the slot loader on the iMacs there.

Re:apple slot loader

[CheshireCatCO]

So you're saying that inserting objects never meant for the drive is bad?

How do they handle hot soup?

Re:apple slot loader

[OddThinking]

I believe the GP was referring to alternative CD/DVD shapes.

Re:apple slot loader

[lexarius]

I believe he's referring to custom-sized CDs, the most common of which are the mini CD and the business card CD. It's a CD that has approximately the shape of a business card. The US Navy once sent me promotional materials on one. Other companies have been known to make weirdly shaped discs (like hearts) for novelty purposes as well. All of these work fine in tray drives, but slot loaders, not so much.

Re:apple slot loader

[someguy456]

So you're saying that inserting objects never meant for the drive is bad?
How do they handle hot soup?

Maybe he's referring to actual CD's shaped like business cards and hearts?

/how 'bout them apples?

Re:apple slot loader

[emag]

/how 'bout them apples?

Haven't you been reading? They don't work in them apples either...

Re:apple slot loader

[kailoran]

Mini CDs are also great for a boot-and-rescue cd to carry around -- they are (obviously) smaller, which makes them more carry-proof. Normal CDs always manage to slip out of a slim case and get scratched, and a full size jewel cases are a bit too big.

Re:apple slot loader

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii is perfectly capable of loading both a regular-CD-sized disc and the smaller gamecube discs into the same slot-load drive. It should be possible to load all these discs in a slot-loader.

Re:apple slot loader

[fbjon]

Slot loaders should handle mini-sized discs just fine. The Wii, for example, accepts Gamecube discs without problem.

Re:apple slot loader

[petermgreen]

afaict most slot loaders can't handle them. The wii can but I bet the mechanism had to be made considerablly more complex to support it.

Re:apple slot loader

[sexconker]

He is referring to oddly shaped discs.
There are a few CDs out there shaped like hearts, clovers, and Yoshi / Mario heads (some old Nintendo soundtrack discs).

Re:apple slot loader

[Dr_Barnowl]

The Wii slot-loader was lauded as being remarkable for being able to load multiple disk sizes without a caddy or adapter ; I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo had patents covering it.

Re:apple slot loader

[v1]

I get to extract business card CDs or those mini (2.5") disks from slot loaders about once a month, which I consider surprisingly infrequent.

Every rare now and again we also get in a drive that has a problem with a particular manufactured CD, usually because the hub diameter is juuuust a little too small and the slot loader can't release the disk from its hub lock when trying to eject it. (makes the drive strain, and then accept the disk back in, so it works but you can't get it out)

Re:apple slot loader

[milsoRgen]

Every rare now and again we also get in a drive that has a problem with a particular manufactured CD, usually because the hub diameter is juuuust a little too small and the slot loader can't release the disk from its hub lock when trying to eject it. (makes the drive strain, and then accept the disk back in, so it works but you can't get it out)

Offtopic I know, but I've had that happen in so many car audio decks, thanks to you I finally understand it!

It don't happen much these days, except with most discs I buy from Hellcat Records...

Re:apple slot loader

[Mal-2]

There are plenty of slot-loading drives (car stereos most notably) that will totally barf on a mini-CD, but that does not make them custom-sized. The 80 mm discs are in fact conforming to a standard, albeit one many slot loader manufacturers have chosen not to support. 60 mm discs, business card discs, heart-shaped discs, etc. are all admittedly non-standard, and if they work, that's nice, but tough luck if they don't. The 80 mm discs really SHOULD work on everything, in the RFC sense of the word SHOULD.

Mal-2

Re:apple slot loader

[emmanuelito]

I have exactly this problem on my iMac ("the drive strain, and then accept the disk back in, so it works but you can't get it out"). Someone could describe a reliable procedure to get the disc out ? Opening the Mac ? Thanks Emmanuel

Re:apple slot loader

[v1]

Unfortunately it almost always requires disassembling the drive, most of the battle is getting it out of the computer.

When a disc goes in, and the tray drops down to lock the hub, a gate drops in front of the slot to prevent you from trying to feed it another disk. You can SOMETIMES use a credit card size item to get the disk out without disassembly. You have to get it into the slot when the gate goes up, and quickly do one of two things. You need to assist the gate in lifting, thus providing additional force in pulling the disc off the hub lock. This is useful if the drive eject mechanism isn't strong enough to pull the disk off. OR you need to get up UNDER the disc and pry it up a bit, if it's trying to imitate a pringles potato chip. (in which case the guides have already pulled the sides of the disc all the way up as far as it will go, and the disc is deformed, and is just not letting go)

It's hard to do but I've seen it done a few times. I usually just take it apart but I've surprised myself with success a few times with that technique.

This advice is probably good for most slot load drives, not just the ones found in macs.

The other problem I've seen is where the felt on the slot is too stiff or there's a label or something on the disc, and it's causing the arm that pushes the disc out to strain and not get the disc shoved out. It will also reload. I see this about 1 in 15. In that case you can sometimes see the disc just start to peek out the slot and get sucked back in. If you see that, the hub is definitely releasing. At that point you need to grab the disc. If the disc isn't coming out far enough to say, get ahold of with a needle nose pliers, or you have trouble timing it, you can use the sharp point of a pocket knife blade to "spear" the top/bottom of the disc as it briefly peeks out. With the disc held, pull the power cord on the computer so the drive stops trying to pull it back in, and use the knife to work it out. If you catch it on the edge you may not even damage the disc.

Re:apple slot loader

[Von Helmet]

The Wii drive is amazing. I'm normally very careful with it, to make sure I always put the Gamecube discs right into the centre of the slot, so it can guide them in straight. The other day my hand shook, and I ended up putting a Gamecube disc in right at the edge. It pulled it in, whirred for a little bit longer than usual, then got on with business like nothing had happened. The mechanics in there must be amazing, that it can pull in a disc from any point in the slot and figure out what to do with it.

Serves them right

[Malevolent Tester]

For reading the Mail on Sunday. Apple users should go for the Guardian's mixture of smugness, cult like atmosphere and complete indifference to reality.

Re:Serves them right

[nightgeometry]

Except the Graniad isn't printed on a Sunday (if you want to be exact, as you are a tester I'd guess, yes the paper is printed on a Sunday, but...). Obviously they want the Observer.

Re:Serves them right

[Haeleth]

Apple users should go for the Guardian's mixture of smugness, cult like atmosphere and complete indifference to reality.

Ha! You may insult him now, but you'll be singing a different tune when he finishes defeating Lord British and laying waste to Britannia, and finally has time to turn his attention to the Avatar's homeworld.

The problem is...

[Endloser]

The arrogant Apple drive is superior to the disc.

Now don't forget

[Shaito]

It's not wrecking everyones drives, just selected Macs.

Re:Now don't forget

[snowraver1]

We in the industry call that a "feature".

Re:Now don't forget

[The Faywood Assassin]

In biology, we call this "natural selection".

Re:Now don't forget

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess Greenpeace was right. Apple isn't environmentally friendly.

Re:Now don't forget

[iainl]

I think what we really need to remember about this is that it's not wrecking everyones drives, just Mail On Sunday readers.

Maybe they should have written "Only for immigrants" on the DVD or something. That would have saved them.

pot, meet kettle

[seanadams.com]

"It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

And these new discs do?

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Pluvius]

Discs don't have ejection systems, so no.

Rob

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Sen.NullProcPntr]

A little more info from OSD's ecodisk PDF:

"Some Matshita Computer Slot-in drives (used in Apple computers) do not follow the DVD forum specifications (by omitting the guide shafts) and thus it might happen that the EcoDisc will not be ejected at first trial, or has to be removed manually" Nothing in the document says that the disk meets any standard.
But it does state that "ODS has applied for 4 patents up to now" so it must be good(TM).

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of this project is to create a new type of disks with significantly different properties that will work in existing drives. Of course the disks don't meet the DVD standard, and of course when they designed the disk to work with existing drives, they designed around the standard and the most popular drives.
          If you were designing a new type of liquid fuel to work in existing cars, you would make a fuel that doesn't follow existing formulations of gasoline and make sure it works to replace normal, unleaded fuel. You wouldn't make sure it also works to power go-carts that were designed to run on methanol.
          The slot drive is another choice in place only because it sets Macs apart, and like many of those choices, it is vastly inferior to the non-Mac options.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[G-News.ch]

That's funny, because Apple is using industry standard slot loading drives that are by no means any different than the ones found in any PC laptop or desktop. So they could just as well state that the discs don't work in any slot-loading drive.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[gilesjuk]

It seems it's not Apple to blame, they probably just asked for a slot drive from a manufacturer and were supplied with one.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[webmaster404]

Yes that is true. However much of the world probably doesn't know what a slot loading DVD drive is. Remember, these are the people that have no clue what their operating system is, or the difference between a DVD and CD other than DVDs hold movies. Macs are easily identified, almost everyone who has a mac knows that they have one, most people who have a slot-loading DVD drive don't. I don't think that it was a good idea for them to decide to make DVDs like that, but you have to realize that with around 10% of computers being Macs, it is just about the only sure-fire way to let people know that it won't work without confusing them with tech-speak.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

In all fairness there have been MANY MANY complaints on the Apple forums about super drives not ejecting disks properly. I myself don't even use the superdrive in my MBP anymore because I personally have had too many problems with these drives. It's not just a problem with these Eco Discs, but I'd imagine their construction makes the problem worse.

Make no mistake, this is Apple's problem to fix.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[kelnos]

Sure Apple's to blame. They're responsible for setting requirements for the product and ensuring any parts supplied by manufacturers meet those requirements. If working for a company that outsources some hardware design and assembly has taught me anything, it's this: never trust that what you are given by an outside entity actually does what you expect or want it to do.

Likely Apple just didn't care about supporting odd-shaped or -sized CDs/DVDs. As the owner of an Apple laptop, I don't have a problem with that, though it would be nice if Apple were to warn customers about these things. (And maybe they do; I suck at reading manuals.)

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

It's totally obvious that the "do" referred back to "doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum", you imbecile.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but is the PDF delivered on the DVD?!

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Ash-Fox]

That's funny, because Apple is using industry standard slot loading drives that are by no means any different than the ones found in any PC laptop or desktop. So they could just as well state that the discs don't work in any slot-loading drive.

Following up on information in the summary and article. It says other slot-loading drives do work with the discs.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[jpallas]

Nothing in the document says that the disk meets any standard.

Which is good, because the DVD licensing company says that the disk does not meet the standard.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[G-News.ch]

Well, all I can tell you, is that Apple uses off-the-shelf drives, just like many other manufacturers too. What they call "Superdrive" can in fact be different drives, from Panasonic to Matshita. The iMac G5 for example (the white one with everything in the monitor) uses a Panasonic DVR-K04, my MacBook Pro that I'm using right now has a Matshita UJ-875E. Those are stock drives. I could go out to the next PC store, buy another 875E and it would work without modification. So if there are slot loading drives that do work, then either Apple has never used those, or it's just pure luck.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Ash-Fox]

Well, all I can tell you, is that Apple uses off-the-shelf drives, just like many other manufacturers too. What they call "Superdrive" can in fact be different drives, from Panasonic to Matshita.

(Hopefully my memory hasn't failed me within the lat 24 hours already after digging into this) It's a specific series of Matshita drives, which to my knowledge were sold in some older PPC Macs, the Mac Mini and older models of the MacbookPro

So if there are slot loading drives that do work, then either Apple has never used those, or it's just pure luck.

I do believe the other drives Apple uses work fine.

Re:pot, meet kettle

[Pluvius]

Well, if you decided to ignore the rules of grammar, I can see how you'd think that...

Rob

Problem Solved!

[goatpunch]

Apple has solved this problem by releasing the MacBook Air without a DVD drive built in- it's much easier to throw away and replace a USB accessory.

Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Peter Cooper]

On the plus side, this is a good form of idiot tax. This might not make sense to non-British readers but the Mail has, let's say, a certain reputation in the UK for its readership being most of Britain's jumpy, middle class, alarmist, conservative, "immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Pluvius]

It still doesn't make sense; how many conservatives do you seriously think own Apple computers?

Rob

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[ettlz]

the Mail has, let's say, a certain reputation in the UK for its readership being most of Britain's jumpy, middle class, alarmist, conservative, "immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers.

Yeah, but it's good for a laugh though, in'it?

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[riseoftheindividual]

middle class, alarmist, conservative, "immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers.

Wow, you have republicans in Britain?

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[peragrin]

American Rush Limbaugh is one the loudest non paid apple supporters out there. Bush has been known to carry an iPod, I don't know which computer he uses though.

Oddly enough Al Gore is also one.

Basically if you have a little extra cash and don't mind paying for quailty hardware there is a greater chance of one being a Mac Fan.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[contrapunctus]

I think mac software is the reason people own mac hardware not the other way around.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

> Wow, you have republicans in Britain? Yes, they're called New Labour, and like Republicans they like invading countries populated by non-white people. We also have Conservatives who are even worse, but let's not even talk about them.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Pentagram]

I like the description in Everything2: the empty headed sheep who buy it would probably still do so if it had typhoid-infected razorblades glued to each page

Oh and let's not forget it's support for fascism in the 30s.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[kelnos]

I'm a counterexample to your unsubstantiated anecdotal argument, though, for your average Mac user, I'd think you're probably correct.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Anonymous Coward]

the Mail has, let's say, a certain reputation in the UK for its readership being most of Britain's jumpy, middle class, alarmist, conservative,

Spoken like a typical lefty-pinko, "uncontrolled immigration is great", Grauniad reader.

See? Two can play at the "crude stereotypes" game. Fun, isn't it?

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[The One and Only]

In Britain, a "republican" is someone who wants to abolish the monarchy and replace it with a republic. They do have them, but they're not allowed to hold office because they refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen.

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[evilbessie]

That's a generous definition of middle class...

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try:
""immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers."

Come back and talk about this in twenty years' time, when whites are a minority in the U.S. and the U.K....

Do you seriously think that LAND MASSES make people intelligent and law abiding, or stupid and criminal?

Any evidence to back this up?

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Anonymous Coward]

many, because they are too challenged to handle a real computer

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[Peter Cooper]

Yeah, it's pretty fun, but I poke fun at idiots on the left /and/ right. I'm not political and don't vote. Of course, I am sure there is a stereotype for that too, but taking fun at anyone who finds politics (or religion) vaguely interesting is good enough for me!

Re:Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

[jimicus]

Come back and talk about this in twenty years' time, when whites are a minority in the U.S. and the U.K....

They already are in some parts of the UK. Luton and IIRC Bradford immediately spring to mind, but there are significant non-white areas in almost every major city in the UK.

Now, I don't have a problem with this provided everyone pulls their weight (ie. doesn't sponge off benefits) and doesn't go around terrorising the rest of the area. But the Daily Mail does have a tendency to portray more or less anyone who isn't white English middle class as living off benefits, setting fire to cars and mugging helpless old ladies. Either that or they're taking our jobs, setting fire to cars and mugging helpless old ladies.

There are a few exceptions. Most professionals (provided they can speak English), but particularly doctors are unlikely to be picked on by that magnificent bastion of unbiased journalism.

Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory Simpson's quote:

Haha! Seriously, even Apple users I know rant about their slot loading Macs (you can pry my tray loading Imac G3 from my cold, dead fingers). Of course, I still think the Ecodisk (I refuse to use camel case) is a really stupid idea. Both ideas were stupid. All disks should be of standard size. The British Mail should have not used these disks. If Global Warming did exist, I wonder what the carbon footprint of these repairs was?

Sincerely,
Tony Snow

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[AKAImBatman]

Seriously, even Apple users I know rant about their slot loading Macs (you can pry my tray loading Imac G3 from my cold, dead fingers). Both ideas were stupid.

Actually, the Apple slot-loading drive was a response to durability problems experienced by students when they used Mac laptops. Apparently kids were liable to snap the DVD tray right off the laptop. (Not good.) So it wasn't a stupid idea. More like an attempt to balance out a variety of needs.

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[rootofevil]

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

That being said, you could always get an iMac. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of a floppy drive.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Have Blue]

I've heard the opposite- that slot-load drives are bad for schools because kids like to stick things in them.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[AKAImBatman]

Indeed. Remind me, what was the point of that?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Firehed]

That's a problem for elementary schools, not colleges.

Well, it's a problem for high schools too, but that's because it's school computers and HS students tend to be dicks when it comes to other people's property. That issue applies to both slot- and tray-loading drives, though.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Bert64]

But once you open a tray loading drive, there is a much bigger hole to put stuff in to...
People who want to vandalise equipment will always find a way to do so.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[i.r.id10t]

Not sure about school age, but my 4 year old son (who is the size of a 6 year old... he towers over some kids in his older sister's 2nd grade class) managed to get *10* discs into the slot loading drive of the iMac I have set up for the kids to use.

Funny thing is that the drive still works, but only reading the outside half of a disc. So CD isos get burned to DVDs and I can read all of 'em, install from 'em, etc. but not CD images on a CD or a DVD image on a DVD - only get about half way thru it...

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[MacColossus]

Or you could get a Dell. Nothing says high technology like a lack of a floppy drive. Or you could get a HP. Nothing says high technology like a complete lack of a floppy drive. Or you can keep using floppies and come crying to me when they fail as they often do and I will boot up my old turd Compaq and Bad Copy Pro to save your ignorant bottom.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

CD drives on all laptops have seemed a bit flimsy. Why are all laptop drives spring-loaded trays rather than the motor driven trays used in other tray drives?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[FinestLittleSpace]

1. Less power consumption
2. Less weight
3. Less space taken up by not having a motor

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[RaceCarDriver]

CD's and DVD's start in the center... You're comment doesn't make sense.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Midnight Thunder]

Even trays have issues, though I mean the ones that imitate top-loaders where you have to put the disk onto the hub. I dislike the type because of exessive mechanical wear and it damages disks.

Slot loaders on the other hand don't appreciated library loaned disks, which have an extra layer of protective plastic along the top, where they'put the security strip in.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[wolrahnaes]

*woosh*

I'm fairly certain your parent post was pointing out how people bitched up a fit about the iMac not having that piece of junk back in 1998, not when the major PC builders finally dropped them from their standard configuration within the last 2 years.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[legoman666]

It's a retractable cupholder, you insensitive clod!

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I've heard that if you stick a slice of bologna in the DVD drive, it will play a short movie about pigs.

Oh well. It was worth a shot.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, not all Apple interfaces are rubbish. I was very impressed by Xcode when I made another abortive attempt at using it the other day.

I particularly love the way that you can add files to projects by drag-and-drop! Oh, wait, no you can't, you have to add them with an "Add file" dialog.

But at least you can add a whole bunch at once! Oh, wait, no you can't, you can only add one at a time.

But at least the dialog box remembers where the files were so you don't have to navigate your directory structure again and again for every single file! Oh, wait, no it doesn't, it always goes right back to the project directory.

And that's before we get onto the really fun details, like the only way to change the build settings for your project is to right-click on the build target name and select the intuitively named "Get Info" option.

Apple, king of user interface design? Don't make me laugh. OS 9 was very good, but it's been downhill all the way since they abandoned usability in favour of useless eye candy.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[drsmithy]

I'm fairly certain your parent post was pointing out how people bitched up a fit about the iMac not having that piece of junk back in 1998, not when the major PC builders finally dropped them from their standard configuration within the last 2 years.

Of course, back then the complaint was perfectly valid because Apple didn't replace it with anything.

Had the iMac shipped with a CDRW drive, they would have actually been "innovative", rather than "cheap".

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Doctor Memory]

the drive still works, but only reading the outside half of a disc. So CD isos get burned to DVDs and I can read all of 'em Actually, it's reading the inside half of the disks. CDs and DVDs play from the inside out. But hey, as long as it works, right?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

>But where's the picture file? Um, show-in-Finder option? Nope.

um, yep.

in fact 2 options: show edited photo in finder or show a backed-up original.

you can also use export it if you want to resize or change format.

or you can just drag the photo to where you want if you're fine with the size/format etc.

there are probably easy solutions to your other complaints, wasn't paying much attention but this one caught my attention as I use iphoto a lot. it rules.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[agrounds]

Oh yes, I forgot: people who prefer using one hand (or are disabled losers) need not apply. So, being partially disabled makes me a loser? Fuck you.

I think you meant well, but your delivery just makes you look like an arrogant little shit.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, don't feed the trolls...

-email, try mail->preferences, then click viewing, then uncheck "Highlight related messages using color"

-iMovie, try file->"Save Frame As..."

-iPhoto (this works in Photobooth also), click the photo and drag it to your desktop, it will be copied there with its original filename in-tact, even.

-iChat, dunno since I don't use it.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

But where's the picture file? Um, show-in-Finder option? Nope.

um, yep.

in fact 2 options: show edited photo in finder or show a backed-up original.

Sorry, a lot of people claim this, but it just isn't there. I right-click (OOOPS!!!! not supposed to talk about right-clicking, it's a mac, all mac users have to have two hands so they can ctrl-click instead, if you're disabled and only have one hand, apple doesn't want your business you freak!) and that option doesn't show up, and it's not in any menu. I don't see anything about showing a backed up original.

you can also use export it if you want to resize or change format.

I *did* export it -- to iPhoto, where it doesn't seem to let me do anything with it except look at it in some useless album. I didn't think of dragging it to the desktop, but what would be the point? I don't want it in the desktop, I want it in a file I can easily refer to on upload without cluttering the desktop. Apparently, I'm supposed to go through the painstaking process of downsizing the iPhoto window, pulling up finder, and then dragging it to the right folder. MUCH easer than two clicks on "save as", right?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

How does that make me look arrogant? I was criticizing Apple's going miles out of their way to make it harder for the disabled. Hell, ctrl-clicking (as opposed to right-clicking) is more inconvenient for me, AND I'M LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE TWO HANDS!

Hey Apple, I know it's hard to accomodate certain disabilities. But could you maybe not *actively seek out* ways to make it harder for the disabled? Is that asking too much?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Spokehedz]

Been there, done that. Every ultra-portable IBM makes doesn't have any.

Old hat, my friend.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Space cowboy]

I particularly love the way that you can add files to projects by drag-and-drop! Oh, wait, no you can't, you have to add them with an "Add file" dialog.
  - Opens up the 'src' folder in the Finder
  - Selects a file
  - Drags it to the 'Sources' folder in the XCode project
  - Sees import-folder-to-project sheet drop down
  - Wonders what the fuss is about

But at least you can add a whole bunch at once! Oh, wait, no you can't, you can only add one at a time
  - Does same as above, but selects multiple files
  - Wonders what the fuss is all about
  - Tries using the dialogue box, in case Apple had gone insane... Nope, multi-select works just fine...

But at least the dialog box remembers where the files were so you don't have to navigate your directory structure again and again for every single file! Oh, wait, no it doesn't, it always goes right back to the project directory
  * This one I'll give you, but then I tend to keep my source files for a given project within the project folder anyway, so it works quite well for me...

the only way to change the build settings for your project is to right-click on the build target name and select the intuitively named "Get Info" option
  - Wonders why the coward just doesn't double-click the project...

Thinks to himself: "Perhaps reading the manual might be a useful exercise for this coward". Here's a hint: If you're doing something that you think is a monumental waste of time, something the computer could do far better, and make your life far easier, you're probably missing something. Reading the fine manual before blowing off steam in public saves making an ass of yourself.

Simon

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

sorry I thought you were looking for an answer, but you just want to bitch. one hand? wtf. guess I got caught by a classic "one mouse button" troll. you haven't even seen a mac have you?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

So let me get this straight, I didn't want an answer to my problem, but I did want to bitch, but the problem doesn't exist?

Yes, I do want a solution -- ONE THAT EXISTS. I will try on the mac forums I guess, but it's important for others to know how crappy an interface that is, where I can barely even use a photo I just cropped.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[nightgeometry]

Hmm, you seem to be a bit... wrong?

Right Click => Show File
or
Export => set what type of file (original, current, jpeg, tiff, png), set options for file size et cetera, then choose where (or you could export as a web page - it'll create some HTML, thumbnails et cetera - usually only useful if you are dumping out a lot of pics and want a quick n dirty page for them, or you could export as a quicktime movie, set time for each image, and various other images).

Yeah yeah, I've been trolled, i'm an apple fanboi and all that.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[jacksonj04]

This may just be me having a unique model here, but all recent Apple Mighty Mouses support left and right click. So, this means the only currently shipping Macs with no right click option would be the laptops. But wait! If I put two fingers on my touchpad and click... holy shit!

Older PCs don't have a CD drive. Older TVs don't have a HDMI socket. Older Macs don't ship with a two-button mouse.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[glorinc]

-I took a photo of myself in PhotoBooth. Now I want to crop it and upload it. Okay, click on iPhoto. Crop image. Great, now I have it in an album. But where's the picture file? Um, show-in-Finder option? Nope. Save cropped picture somewhere? Nope. I have to go deep into the directory, photos->iphoto library->various weird folder -> copy it to a more useful place, then upload.

Ummm, you do know that you can just click and drag the picture from iPhoto onto your desktop, right?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Random Destruction]

You're comment

A joke?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Space cowboy]

email
I don't know what you mean here. I'm under the impression that mail rules are to do with delivery/sorting, not view options, and my subject lines aren't darkened anyway. It seems to me you're complaining about not knowing much about the Mac UI. Here's a hint: different doesn't imply worse or better, it simply implies different. It may be worse, but to criticise based on your own unfamiliarity is not a valid point. *All* interfaces require the user become familiar with them, to gain the most efficiency.

iMovie ... "OH, wait, I can right-click too! Why hide this option from me? Oh yes, I forgot: people who prefer using one hand (or are disabled losers) need not apply"
This is a standard feature on the Mac - *any* ctrl-click is treated the same as a right-mouse click. This allows people who prefer to a use one-button mouse to have the same interface as those who prefer a multi-buttoned mouse.

iPhoto Photo's are indeed stored in a logical-to-the-computer storage hierarchy, probably so it can deal with a few hundred thousand images efficiently. On the other hand, all you need to do to get access to an image is click on it, and drag it to the desktop (or wherever). There's no need to go hunting for it through the Finder. There's also the 'Show File' option on that right-click popup menu, that'll locate it in the Finder for you if you want...

iChat
  - Selects image on desktop
  - Drags it to picture in top-right corner of the 'AIM Buddy List' ichat window
  - Wonders what the fuss is about...

From reading this, it seems you're just unfamiliar with the Mac, and how it works in general. As mentioned above, different does not imply better or worse, but shooting your mouth off about how bad something is, when you're just missing how to do things, seems less than useful. Sure, there'll be problems in Mac apps - there are problems in all apps, but before you complain, perhaps it would be best to make sure they're *real* problems...

Simon, leaving the title as-is...

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Chris Mattern]

Here's a hint: If you're doing something that you think is a monumental waste of time, something the computer could do far better, and make your life far easier, you're probably missing something. Reading the fine manual before blowing off steam in public saves making an ass of yourself.

But I thought the whole point of the Mac interface was that you never had to read a manual. Isn't the Mac philosophy supposed to be that any interface where you have to read the manual is made of fail?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

well if you're genuine then here's a virtual screenshot:

Cut
Copy
Paste
-
Edit
Edit in separate window
Edit using full screen
Edit using external editor
-
Rotate Clockwise
Rotate Counter Clockwise
-
Show Info
Show File (((CLICK HERE)))
Show Original File
-
Batch Change...
Duplicate
-
My Rating
Delete From Album
Revert to Original

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Don't have my MacBook in front of me, but, again, I was looking for a way to export the file I just made or show it in Finder (anything to access in some way other than the damn album!), so please, give me a teensy weensy bit of credit here. I may have seen and chosen a "show file" option, which promptly "showed" the file -- as a picture. I don't want the picture. I want its location so I can upload it to an internet website. There was certainly no export option.

Hey, maybe it's just because I'm using the '07 version, and not the '08 version where they advanced those innovations.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[vux984]

How does that make me look arrogant? \

You said:

Oh yes, I forgot: people who prefer using one hand (or are disabled losers) need not apply.

Really? You can't see an issue with that statement? Here, try this:

So your saying that if your an average person (including that UbuntuDupe loser) you'll find ctrl-clicking inconvenient?

How about now? Did you detect a little bit of a dig there? Something a certain ubuntudupe might take offense too? I mean, even though I was just saying that most people find ctrl-clicking inconvenient...?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you talking about ? Are you completely incapable of reading comprehension ?

You obviously have a two button mouse.
Macs support two-button mice
Right-click on the image to get the standard-to-the-mac context-sensitive popup-menu,
Select the menu option "Show file"
See a Finder window pop up showing the location of the file.

Seriously, how hard is this to understand? Do you have problems with multi-syllabic words ? (I guess we'll never know, if you do, since you won't be able to grok that question...)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Space cowboy]

But I thought the whole point of the Mac interface was that you never had to read a manual

Then you were wrong.

Macs *are* generally easy to use - my mother has less problems than the gp, and she can't program the DVR.... However, if there was no need for any documentation, however, I seriously doubt Apple would spend the time and money on all this documentation. Note that this isn't just developer documentation, it's everything from games through bundled apps, through code-generation, through hardware references.

Simon

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Yes, we can debate all day about whether that "different" functionality should or should not have been obvious or easy after X time. I'm going to focus on the things that are *inexcusably* bad here.

-email:

Why is not possible to find out how remove the (ridiculous) darkening on the subject lines? I did every search term to no avail.

*Within* an options window in the email, why is the options window so huge that it covers the default bottom launch bar AND I can't resize that window or scroll up and down within the window, FORCING me to figure out how to REMOVE THE WHOLE BOTTOM LAUNCH BAR just to alter one option in email?

-iMovie

Why is Apple going out of its way to hide the existence of options for unwanted one-handed people? Why do they think ctrl-click is easier for two-handed people, than right-clicking?

Why go through the trouble of allowing me to "glide" through the movie by moving my cursor over the panels, yet not let me export a frame when I *do* right click on the right one?

Why can't I choose where to save the file that makes up one of the still frames?

-iPhoto

I don't want to drag the file to the desktop. I want it in a logical place where I can easily get to it and upload it. Why does it make that so hard?

And, as I told you before, right-clicking (SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! SHUT UP!!!!!!! THAT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) *did not* bring up any option to "show in finder".

-iChat

Ah, okay, so Apple wants me to store every file I'd ever want to make as a buddy icon, right on the desktop somewhere? And why do I have to drag it to the desktop as an intermediate step? Why not straight from iPhoto?

***

You're right, I am, in a way, new to Mac (once you ignore the youngest 15 years of my life). That still doesn't explain why I can't find *in the help options* how to do these things.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Sorry, maybe this is just my latent autism speaking, but, I see:

Oh yes, I forgot: people who prefer using one hand (or are disabled losers) need not apply. as being critical of Apple's attitude toward the disabled, NOT of the disabled.

And, consistently, I see:

So your saying that if your an average person (including that UbuntuDupe loser) you'll find ctrl-clicking inconvenient? as being critical of the listener's attitude toward UbuntuDupe, NOT of UbuntuDupe.

I guess it's that I automatically see "including that ___ loser" as being sort of a mocking aside, not a direct attack on ___.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[tepples]

This one I'll give you, but then I tend to keep my source files for a given project within the project folder anyway, so it works quite well for me Unless several projects on your machine share the same source code files, and the code in those files hasn't yet stabilized to the point where it is worth packaging as a library.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[FatMacDaddy]

Um, just to try to focus this discussion a bit, remember that this discussion, and the parent post are about hardware. The issues you site are all software related, and none that I see apply specifically to the MacBook and certainly not to drive designs.

I'm just sayin'.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[LKM]

GP's described behaviour seemed rather intuitive to me. GGP didn't figure it out, so probably he does need to read a manual, but I would guess most people would have figured out how to do what GP explained without reating a manual. Furthermore, GGP was talking about Xcode, which is an IDE. I doubt most people expect to just be able to use a tool as complex as an IDE.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, maybe this is just my latent autism speaking, but, I see:

Oh yes, I forgot: people who prefer using one hand (or are disabled losers) need not apply.

as being critical of Apple's attitude toward the disabled, NOT of the disabled.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

To export:

      - Select the image in iPhoto
      - Go to the 'File' menu
      - Select 'export... '
      - Put it where you want

To simply see the image in a Finder window, *exactly* as if you had navigated the filesystem

      - Select the image in iPhoto
      - Right-click and select 'Show file'
      - Watch a Finder window pop up, showing the directory within which your file resides, with your file selected.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[MacColossus]

The point back then was that the Imac was the Internet Mac. Anything small enough to fit on a floppy was sent via email. Napster was all the rage at the time. People weren't adverse to downloading files of that size. If you needed something bigger, Zip drives were very prevalent and CD-R was coming into it's own.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[mzs]

I used a 4 MB USB flash drive. Yes only 4 MB, but larger than the 1.44 MB floppy it replaced. Before that I was using 100 MB Zip drives before the click of death.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[mdwh2]

I'm fairly certain your parent post was pointing out how people bitched up a fit about the iMac not having that piece of junk back in 1998, not when the major PC builders finally dropped them from their standard configuration within the last 2 years.

Maybe because things might have changed a bit in 8+ years? Many people were still using floppy disks in 1998 (and as pointed out, there was no alternative supplied for writing media). A few years later, floppy disks are dead and every computer has CDRW or even DVDRW, along with support for memory cards.

And actually, I read the OP (and probably the Grandparent) as taking the piss out of people who claimed that the iMac was some revolutionary ("high technology") machine for not having a floppy drive. (Even if that is worth a claim to fame, the Amiga CDTV did it years before anyway.)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[vux984]

Ah I see. Lets see if I got this right?

Basically you intended the 'speaker' of that sentence to be understood to be Apple.

On re-reading your post, I agree that the context sufficiently establishes that, but its not strongly established that you are fully immersed 'in the character of apple'. (eg. had you written the entire post 'in character'.)

Without that, your use of parenthesis around the loser clause, specifically leads the reader to reasonably infer that this is an injection by -you-, the -author-, not the 'speaking character' of Apple.

Had you written something along the lines of...

Well we all know that Apple thinks, "People preferring one hand, not to mention those disabled losers, need not apply."

You would have been fine with that. But using parenthesis was your undoing. Punctuation counts. ;)

cheers!

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[rishistar]

The point of it is to make up for the lack of an eject button for the drive!

(at least on my mac mini)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Space cowboy]

Why is not possible to find out how remove the (ridiculous) darkening on the subject lines? I did every search term to no avail

I still have no idea what you mean by this. There is an option in preferences->Viewing "Display unread messages in bold". Is that it ? There is also a menu item 'View -> Organize by thread', which changes the view, but not to what you're describing...

Did you consider moving/resizing the Mail window, if it's obscuring the dock ? And I'm not sure what this "options window" is either - you are sure you're using Mail.app that comes with OSX, aren't you ?

Why is Apple going out of its way to hide the existence of options for unwanted one-handed people? Why do they think ctrl-click is easier for two-handed people, than right-clicking?

Those questions are nonsense. If Apple didn't want to provide right-clicking, they simply wouldn't. They do provide it, so they obviously do want people to use it. Which is why every desktop and laptop can do right-clicks, despite *apparently* having a single-button mouse/trackpad. You keep on flogging this dead horse, and it's still not going anywhere. Your own ignorance of the extensive use of right-clicking within Apple's OS and apps is not a good argument.

iMovie

I've never used iMovie, but the response from someone above seems reasonable "save frame as" would imply you can both save a given frame, and name it what you want...

iPhoto

The desktop is an example. You can put the files wherever you want. I'm definitely getting a "waah, waah, waah" vibe from you now.

As for the menu item, it does exist. I've just used it. Just in case you're being incredibly dense, the option is "Show File", not "Show in Finder".

iChat

[sigh] No, you don't have to store anything anywhere. Again, it was an example. I'd expected you to delete the file from the desktop immediately afterwards. Since you apparently require deliberate instructions, here you go:

   

• open iPhoto
     
• Click on 'Photos' or some other album, and find the one you want
     
• Drag it to the image well in the top-right of the buddy-list window
     
• Crop/resize it within the dialogue box. Even set effects if you want.
     
• Click on 'Set'
  

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The same drag/drop works from photo-booth by the way...

Simon.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[v1]

We had problems with the kids punching out the grilles in the new emacs. And then later punching out the exposed cones. It took three emacs left with dual metal cavities in their front faces before they started locking the lab when no teacher was supervising it.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

I still have no idea what you mean by this.

DING DING DING DING DING! Maybe that should clue you in on the problem: that stuff is popping up and annoying me, and *there's no clear way to get rid of it*. Yes, you don't know what was going on. NEITHER DID I, and I already told you everything I know.

The problem is not the "read/unread" distinction. Give me a little credit here, since you're trying to make me the Windows fanboy. That must mean I know about bolding unread messages.

The problem was that the background of all subject lines was dark for some reason. It annoyed me, and I couldn't change it, and I doubt you'd do any better than I did. (wait, wait, I know, I must have gone into some hidden options somewhere and added that, right?)

Did you consider moving/resizing the Mail window, if it's obscuring the dock ? And I'm not sure what this "options window" is either - you are sure you're using Mail.app that comes with OSX, aren't you ?

You're really testing my patience, aren't you?

-The mail app is not obscuring the doc.
-Yes, it's the one that came with OSX, unless some elves replace the one that was on the left side of the lower (lauch) bar that was there on first bootup.
-The "options" window is one of the windows for setting mail filters.
-I cannot move that window, and it spills over onto the launch bar!!!! I cannot scroll up and down on it either. I'm supposed to somehow click stuff which is right on top of the launch bar, which, oops, actually just launches the program on the bar at that location. Good luck justifying that user interface design, dude.

Your own ignorance of the extensive use of right-clicking within Apple's OS and apps is not a good argument.

I'm not ignorant of the use of right-clicking. I'm ignorant of why they decided to make the help option tell you the HARDER way to do stuff, and the way that's impossible for disabled people. (Who cares about *them*, right?)

I've never used iMovie, but the response from someone above seems reasonable "save frame as" would imply you can both save a given frame, and name it what you want...

I already told you I right-clicked and it wasn't there. That was the very first thing I tried.

As for the menu item, it does exist. I've just used it. Just in case you're being incredibly dense, the option is "Show File", not "Show in Finder".

Ah, okay, so in your opinion, it's "good user interface design" to make the term "show file" when using iPhoto, but to call it "show in Finder" when doing the exact same thing in PhotoBooth, and I'm supposed to know that "show file" means "Show in Finder" rather than "display the file to me", which it's already doing.

No, you don't have to store anything anywhere. Again, it was an example. I'd expected you to delete the file from the desktop immediately afterwards.

LOL!!!! So, to summarize, SOP for uploading files is to:

-resize the window of the program I'm using
-Drag the file out of it and onto the desktop.
-open safari and resize it so I can see the original program, safari, and the file
-drag the file into safari and into the upload box
-upload it
-delete the file from the desktop

Drag it to the image well in the top-right of the buddy-list window

The same drag/drop works from photo-booth by the way...

Nope, I already tried those, which is why I had to do all the frustrating other stuff.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[zsau]

I run Linux, but I prefer Apple laptops precisely because they have a slot loading drive. Having a tray drive on a laptop isn't a dealbreaker for me, but I am significantly less likely to go for one. Every laptop with a tray loading drive I've known of has had the tray cease to come out easily --- if at all --- well before the life of the laptop is up. The only problem I've ever had with a slot loading drive is that you can't put in small-sized disks. Maybe my experience is unusual, but it's the only one I have.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Cervantes]

Indeed. Remind me, what was the point of that? Because, if people don't need floppy drives any more, why the hell would they need Floppy V2.0 (aka CD)?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Space cowboy]

I don't understand the "windows fanboy" reference. I don't believe I accused you of being either a fanboy, or a windows user. I'm not that cruel. All I can say is that I've never seen Mail.app have the background of all subject lines dark - mine are white.

For this "options window", I guess I'm still not understanding how you can't move/resize the window. Perhaps at this point, if you could put an image up on a webserver somewhere... You're not describing it well enough for me to grasp the problem. Some points ...

• The Mac doesn't have a launch-bar, it has the dock, which by default is at the bottom of the screen. You can however right-click on the "bar effect" to the left of the trash-can to configure it to hide, reposition on a different screen-border, etc. Perhaps this would help you.
  
• Elves seem unlikely; in contrast to the likelihood of people helping you when all you do is rant.
  
• I'm not aware of any non-moveable windows in Mail.app - even the buttons at the bottom-left of the application are associated with the window, though none of them do mail-filters anyway.
  

I'm ignorant of why they decided to make the help option tell you the HARDER way to do stuff

It's common knowledge that on the Mac, a right-click is the exact equivalent of a ctrl-click. It's almost certainly documented in your manual, though I don't have one on-hand to check. I suspect the reason they document the ctrl-click is because it is *always* possible to do it that way. Would you prefer documentation that instructed you to 'right click to get a menu' ? If you were unaware of the ctrl-click == right-click, you would wonder how it was possible to right-click a single-button mouse!!

The rest of your post seems to be dedicated to saying "it doesn't do that for me". Well, it *does* do that for me. I tried the drag-and-drop operation before I wrote about it, both from iPhoto and from photo-booth.

Reading this thread again, and given your ranting and general attitude, I think I've had enough - find your own damn ways to do things, and enjoy ranting about how bad they are from now on...

Simon.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[VisceralLogic]

On the other hand, not all Apple interfaces are rubbish. I was very impressed by Xcode when I made another abortive attempt at using it the other day.

I particularly love the way that you can add files to projects by drag-and-drop! Oh, wait, no you can't, you have to add them with an "Add file" dialog.
Interesting... drag and drop is the way I've always done it...

But at least you can add a whole bunch at once! Oh, wait, no you can't, you can only add one at a time.

Interesting... drag and drop multiple is how I usually do it...

But at least the dialog box remembers where the files were so you don't have to navigate your directory structure again and again for every single file! Oh, wait, no it doesn't, it always goes right back to the project directory.

And that's before we get onto the really fun details, like the only way to change the build settings for your project is to right-click on the build target name and select the intuitively named "Get Info" option.

These I'll give you.

Apple, king of user interface design? Don't make me laugh. OS 9 was very good, but it's been downhill all the way since they abandoned usability in favour of useless eye candy. Well, I didn't like Aqua at first, but after I was using it for awhile, it kind of grew on me. Now Platinum just looks out of place.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[guruevi]

The floppy drive was replaced long before the iMac and was initially replaced by a ZIP drive. If you have a PowerMac G3 or G4 you'll most likely see a 100 or 250MB ZIP drive, that's not a floppy. iMac's never had a floppy device and the last floppy drive for Apple products was found in 1998.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[youthoftoday]

"British Mail On Sunday" It's British (Mail on Sunday) not (British Mail) On Sunday. Right-associative. (Like their politics)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[rtechie]

The idea was to make it thin and light. The MacBook Air is a subnotebook, and subnotebooks typically do not have optical drives built in with the goal of keeping the size, weight, and power requirements down.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Slur]

Damn, chill out and learn. You just need to work on understanding your software and your system, plus some basics of Mac usage in general.

Mail - You're just flabbergasting yourself, take a breath. To turn off a rule in mail you just uncheck it. Is the Preferences window so large that things are behind the Dock? (It's called the "Dock" by the way.) Hide the Dock then shrink the window... or better yet, just move the window upwards. General advice: Put the Dock on the side of the screen, it works better there.

iMovie - The option you want is "Create Still" and it's in a discoverable place in the menu bar. Control-click is right click, what's your point? If you want to use one hand get a multi-button mouse with a wheel. Spend the $15 and save yourself the headache. "Video Capture" is totally the wrong term, so you wouldn't find what you were looking for. Video capture is the act of capturing video from some source, not converting a frame into a JPEG. What you want is "Frame Capture." Or, if all you want is what you see on the screen, just switch to fullscreen, pause at the frame you want and press Command-Shift-3 to take a screenshot. Why are you digging through the Finder? Because you don't realize there's a simple way, and you didn't bother to find out. Some clever Googling can help you - don't be so quick to assume.

Photobooth - Drag the photo you want from wherever you see it onto the desktop. Done. If you sent it to iPhoto to crop it, then you have given it to iPhoto to care for. You need to understand the paradigm of iPhoto. Once photos are given to iPhoto it becomes your pathway to those images. There is never any good reason to go into the iPhoto album folders. The proper way to send images out of iPhoto is to use EXPORT in the FILE menu. Command-Shift-E. If on the other hand you had dragged the photo to the desktop you could also have any image editor to edit it.

iChat - Yes you can just drag an image on top of your buddy icon to change it, assuming that you're dragging a file proxy. And when you drag an image from iPhoto to iChat you are dragging an image file proxy. I just tried it and it worked fine! Copy-paste from an image viewer/editor to any image target also works. As for expecting iPhoto to have an "Export to iChat" function? Well, first that's the wrong use of the word "Export" which has a formal meaning in most programs. Second of all, iChat isn't really a common target for images. It has an interface to change your buddy icon, but how often is that needed? Should iPhoto also have "Send to TextEdit" just because you can paste images into documents?

Just learn how to use your system, and you'll find it's just fine. You only flabbergast yourself with all these complaints based on ignorance of the software. Get a tutor, and take the time to listen and learn. Breathing exercises may also help, if you have a hard time sitting still.

Good luck mastering your Mac experience!

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[that this is not und]

And newer Macs don't support a third mouse button in program like Xfig, because you can't chord their 'two mouse' interface.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

The point back then was that the Imac was the Internet Mac. Anything small enough to fit on a floppy was sent via email. Napster was all the rage at the time. People weren't adverse to downloading files of that size. I guess you don't have a good memory. In 1998, dial-up was the dominant form of internet access. In 1998, it was an unnecessary hassle to dial-up your ISP, open up Claris Emailer in Mac OS 8, attach the file, send it to yourself, then repeat most of these steps at whatever computer you sent the file to.

If you needed something bigger, Zip drives were very prevalent Zip drives were external, clicking, dying pieces of crap. They made floppy disks seem very reliable and inexpensive. There's a good reason this format had the shortest life span of any storage medium.

and CD-R was coming into it's own. Yes, CD-R was coming into its own when the iMac was released in 1998. Too bad CD burners weren't included in iMacs until 2001.

Don't you remember all those external floppy/zip/ls120 drives hanging off of nearly every freakin' iMac? Dropping the floppy drive from a consumer PC was a good idea in the year 2000, not in 1998. Dropping the floppy without a decent built-in replacement was moronic.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[AKAImBatman]

I was asking what the point of his post was. Not what the point of removing these devices was. As I was trying to communicate in my post, the issue of optical drives is becoming null and void in many situations.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[SanityInAnarchy]

Dropping the floppy without a decent built-in replacement was moronic.

Debatable. Remember, the thing sold like hotcakes, no matter how much we thought it was crap.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[fatphil]

Lots of long words, yet apparently in your previous post you didn't appear to know the difference between "your" and "you're". I'd suggest it's best to not argue points of comprehension if you can't even get your own house in order. In particular when it was blindingly obvious that UbuntuDupe was being ironic.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[fatphil]

But will it disappear in a puff of smoke when I drag it onto the desktop? Some things do, like (the link to) my home directory from the left panel of Finder.

But dragging into the left panel of Finder creates a link.

Neither of which is copying.

Nor are any of those the most logical behaviour, namely that's which happens in the real world when you grab something, drag it somewhere else, and drop it - it moves to the new location.

So was deleting, creating a link, copying, or even moving the intuitive behaviour for the drag and drop you suggest?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[NtroP]

Give it up. The GP is a loser. He doesn't WANT help. He wants to whine. Some people are just like that.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

You're on Slashdot here. Use a Hackintosh! The power of UNIX and the interface of the iPod.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

First, I'm SO sorry for describing the dock as a bar.

Mail: Thanks for admitting my point. When trying to unfuck-up the appearance, I CAN'T EVEN GET OUT OF A WINDOW UNTIL I FIGURE OUT HOW TO MOVE SOMETHING I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE YET. If you don't see how that's a user interface problem, I really don't know what to tell you. Why are MacBooks getting shipped with something that can lock them inside a window like that?

iMovie: I already have a real mouse, you just missed the point again.

You still haven't explained why iMovie doesn't let me just right click on a frame and let me export it with a name I like. I searched for stills, and a result came up promising to tell me how to make them, and it told me THE EXACT SAME THING I LEARNED THE OTHER WAY. Specifically, that I have to go the roundabout way of making a NEW clip with that as a still picture, and THEN go dig it out of finder, each of them having the same name.

iPhoto: Unfortunately, I still can't export that way, OR move the picture like you suggested. After getting home, I documented the problem in a video. However, afterward, I found out the problem was that I have to close out of iPhoto, then re-open it, and then go to the albums again. Dragging the photo doesn't work before that, nor is there an export option. I guess I was supposed ot know that.

ichat -- Same problem as in iPhoto, the photo couldn't be moved until I came back to the album by clicking on the right parts of the side menu.

Yeah, I can get a tutor, but you're missing the point. Macs are supposed to be easy to use. LOCKING ME INTO MAIL BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MOVE THE DOCK IS NOT EASY TO USE. Making me go through some convoluted process just to export a damn still is not easy to use. Not letting me immedately move around stuff I edited in iPhoto is not easy to use. Yeah, there's some stuff you just have to learn, but there's also stuff that's inexcusable. Everything here is the latter.

Here's the documentation of my problems: YouTube (may be a while before approved)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[MacColossus]

My memory is fine. less than a minute to upload a 1 MB file. Floppy drives took the same amount of time to save. I used Netscape. Never a fan of Claris Emailer, but I digress. I worked in service for a Apple Authorized Service Center in 98. I am aware of internet reports of a "click of death" I saw very little of this. The reason it had a short span was due to the quick decrease in price of burners and media. Not to mention every computer had a CD reading device. I do remember the external drives hanging off Macs. But was that due to necessity for a floppy replacement, graphic artists use large files and Macs (remember Syquest drives before floppies were removed from Macs and Zips were introduced), or struggle of end users to accept a new paradigm?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Be careful what you wish for -- you just might get it.

The video is live.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[SillyPerson]

We had problems with the kids punching out the grilles in the new emacs. And then later punching out the exposed cones. It took three emacs left with dual metal cavities in their front faces before they started locking the lab when no teacher was supervising it.

Must have been vim users.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Jesus_666]

Because, if people don't need floppy drives any more, why the hell would they need Floppy V2.0 (aka CD)?

Why would they need external HDDs? So they can store and carry around data, I guess.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

Sadly, I don't currently have the mod points to mod you "troll", so instead, I posted a video response to the YouTube video instead. Seriously, is "Reveal In Finder" that hard to find?

I don't think that Mac OS X is perfect, but I'd like to see you name another OS that is more user-friendly.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[ApostasyX]

Less than 1 minute to upload a 1 MB file on a dialup connection? I don't know what kind of dialup connection you were using, but at maximum theoretical speed (56Kbps) downloading a 1MB file would take approx 2.5 minutes. Upload speed for this type of connection is a theoretical maximum of 33.6Kbps.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't bother with this guy - he's an arsehole. See his comments history or his posts on the Ubuntu forums.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Okay, I'd love to make a video in response again, but:

1) You didn't follow the protocols I did. See here. I took a photo in PhotoBooth, then edited in iPhoto. Did you do that? No, you looked at existing iPhoto albums. If you actually follow the steps I did, that option doesn't come up.

2) No shit, Sherlock. The question was, why do I have to add a whole new clip to my movie, that I'm just going to have to delete anyway, THEN find that still in Finder, THEN rename it, then move it, then delete it, when all I should have to do is right-click and save where I want it, with the name I want?

3) Yes, it's possible for me to, eventually, despite being on a Mac for the first time in ages, figure out how to move the Dock, something I should never really have to do, in order to get out of a window within the mail client. But why do I have to learn how to move the dock in order to change mail rule? What kind of thinking went into that? I showed you that there's no option to scroll down on that window, despite it being tall and the fact that it can get taller. I showed you you can't even move it up!

I'm really interested in knowing how it's "good user interface design" to have to kind of dependency.

I'm also interested in knowing how my not upgrading to Leopard to be like all my sheep Mac buddies has anything to do with my complaint.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[PinkPanther]

However, if there was no need for any documentation, however, I seriously doubt Apple would spend the time and money on all this documentation.

In addition, the Mac does have an intuitive interface...unless you define "intuitive" as "works just like the system I have adjusted my behaviour to put up with its quirks". That is, if you are expecting the Mac to make simple tasks hard-to-do, then you'd be wrong.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

1. I just tested exactly what you describe in your post above, and I still have "Show File" regardless of where I import to iPhoto from. Do I need to do another video to prove you wrong? It only takes me a few moments to record something that takes 10 seconds.
2. This is an amazingly trivial thing to quibble about. I've proved that you can export stills from iMovie (you take a still, then reveal it in Finder). If you're not happy about the way Apple did it, submit a bug on it. I have done this previously (an issue with Terminal in the developer builds of Leopard), and it was fixed ASAP.
3. From your movie, I cannot make out the window that you are claiming descends below the Dock. Personally, I've yet to manage to make a window that cannot fit completely on the screen. Mac OS X is aware of where the Dock is, and will resize windows to accommodate it. Take a screenshot of it, using the Cmd+Shift+3 built into Tiger.

I'm also interested in knowing how my not upgrading to Leopard to be like all my sheep Mac buddies has anything to do with my complaint.

I was pointing out that if you are as dissatisfied with Mac OS X Tiger as your whining on here and in your video makes you out to be, there are alternatives. You have an Intel Mac. You could install any OS you want to on it. That you are still using 10.4 merely indicates to me that you are going out of your way to find things to troll and whine about. Apple still supports 10.4, as well, for that matter, and you could submit a bug report on your Mail window problem (if it really is a problem; in your video I could not make out the bottom of the window being below the Dock). But I'm betting that you've submitted no bugs, as you're just here to troll and whine.

For that matter, it's not like Apple is forcing you not to use another mail client, there are a quite a few of free choices (Thunderbird, Eudora, Correo, and Mulberry spring to mind).

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

1. Well, I can make the video again, and show better precision. Would you believe me then?
2. My claim is that the interface is poor. I have laid out what a good interface would be. Mac does not meet that. That substantiates my claim that Mac's interface sucks. It does not contradict me to show that hey, maybe after the fifth edition, they'll add an easy obvious feature that signficantly improves the interface. My claim is that the interface NOW is bad.

Here is a good interface.

-Right click on frame.
-Export frame as [name], where I want.

Here is what I actually get:

-Right click on frame.
-Add frame as still to video.
-WARNING WARNING YOUR PROJECT HAS BEEN MODIFIED, THAT TOTALLY F'S EVERYTHING UP, YOU'LL HAVE TO REUPLOAD, BLAH BLAH BLAH
-Show frame in finder.
-Rename.
-Cut, navigate through finder, paste where I want.
-Repeat for every still that I want.
-Delete still clips from project.
-Project still thinks it has been changed and all indicators show it needs to be reuploaded, even though I never once wanted to change it at all.

Now, justify that interface decision for a company that prides itself on the user interface.

3. No, it isn't aware, and no it didn't. It's blindingly clear from the clip you already saw: the window extends into the dock. End of story.

As for the rest:

-What does it matter that I can upgrade? Is the problem fixed in the newer version? Why all the whining about how I haven't fellated Steve Jobs with all my friends because he wants me to get Leopard? It came out, what, two months ago?

As for mail:

Me: The mail client, the one Mac designed with its ultra advanced user interface design philosophy, has a critical interface problem.
You: No it doesn't because you could use another mail client.

Where do they even find people like you?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

1. If it does, where are the screenshots to prove it? Your Mac has a built-in tool to take screenshots and I have told you how to do it. There are free sites like Photobucket or Flickr to host them for you.
2. You found fault with 3 items inside of Mac OS X. If you could actually prove two of them with screenshots, it would demonstrate that Mac OS X's interface is not perfect, which I never claimed that it was (and as far as I'm aware, neither has Apple). I will concede that you cannot do #2 with only one click (OMG, it takes two), but that does not translate as "Mac OS X's interface sucks". If three claimed flaws meant that an interface sucked, then there is no interface that doesn't suck. You aren't even using the interface "NOW", you're using the interface that has since been replaced by Leopard.
3. Again, where is the screenshot showing this window? See #1.

Me: I have demonstrated that you are wrong.
You: But I *say* it does this, therefore it does, because I can whine like an emo-kid on YouTube while shooting a badly angled video that is too unclear to show anything.

But I'm sure that the only way you can further your trolling argument is to duck the points I made, refuse to answer questions (bug reports, screenshots), and whine that it's all Apple's fault that you can't do [insert feature here].

People like me are found by trolls like you who post something that is absolutely false to my experience. I read the "boohoo, iPhoto won't show a picture in Finder" and immediately thought "but yes, it will." I then proceeded to prove you wrong, and you're still whining about it. Next time, hone your arguments to include some facts and screen captures which provide corroboration.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

The reason I provided a "badly angled" video rather than a screenshot was to prove to you that the menu came about the way I claimed. A screenshot can be modified so that menu appears to be where it never actually would appear. Now, if you can't see that the mail rule window was spiling over into the dock, and that the cancel/ok buttons weren't available to use, you're lying. I will, however, later today, provide you with the screenshots.

The video could be better angled if I did a video directly of the screen, but I notice in all your zeal to tell me how easy it is to do screen shots, you can't easily explain that necessary part to me.

As for Leopard:

1) How does the existence of a newer version prove that these flaws have been removed?
2) Why does it take the fifth version of the tenth operating system (~3rd sustaining video editing) to do something so obvious, when all Mac fans claim that Apple is "expert" at interface design, just, just, top of the line?
3) Are you really going to rest on "Your complaint was totally valid up to October 2007, but hey, who the hell expected a good inteface in *that* time?"

I will concede that you cannot do #2 with only one click (OMG, it takes two), but that does not translate as "Mac OS X's interface sucks".

Okay, first, it is a LIE that saving stills takes "OMG" two clicks. Rather, I have to add the FALSE information to iMovie that my project has been modified, and I have to do quite a lot of clicking to get the still and put them where I want them with the names I want.

Yes, these complaints constitute POOR design because they add untold frustration. Imagine what it's like for Grandma trying to undarken her mail subject lines, or getting locked in Mail because she was dumb enough to open a mail rule window that spills onto the dock that she hasn't learned how to move. Imagine how much unnecessary crap I have to do get stills and how it makes the "modification" status of my videos a lie. Imagine how much frustration there is for me to have just modified a picture and now have no clear way to upload it since it won't drag.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

And you continue to fail to produce screenshots illustrating what you say. My video showed the Rules screen of Mail in Leopard, which looks nothing like what yours is purported to look like. Watch it again if you don't believe me.

1. How did you prove that this flaw existed to begin with? My video shows quite clearly that (in Leopard) the Rules window fits easily on the screen, without going under the Dock. Your video shows something blurry that appears to go under the Dock. Since recording that video I've checked another Mac running 10.4 [with Mail.app version 2.1.2 (753)] which has the exact same Rules pane in its Preferences as the one pictured in my video.
2. Citing logical fallacies does not make your arguments true.
3. I am not resting my arguments on that single remark, I was merely (successfully) countering an untrue claim that you made with a factually correct rebuttal.

Okay, first, it is a LIE that saving stills takes "OMG" two clicks.

My video proves this to be true, I did it with 2 clicks. Count them:

1. Secondary-click (and hold), drag the mouse down to "Add Still Frame to Project". Release mouse button.
2. Move the mouse pointer to the frame, secondary-click (and hold), drag the mouse down to "Reveal in Finder". Release the mouse button.

In case you failed to count that, that was 2 clicks. You could also do it in 4, if you didn't hold down the mouse button. Try it. Am I lying? No.

Even if your hypothetical grandmother had a window trapped behind the Dock (which you have yet to prove), and I have already shown not to exist in the current version of the operating system, she is not locked into Mail.app, there is nothing to prevent her from opening a web browser, accessing the Help menu, or going into System Preferences. So she is hardly "locked in". Please demonstrate the inability to "undarken" subject lines; I don't use Mail.app, and you have yet to show this issue. I've already illustrated that it is quite easy to get stills and only takes a few seconds.

However you try to twist my statements does not make them untrue when I have demonstrated them with visual evidence, unless you are claiming that I altered that video. Seriously, if you're going to keep arguing this, bring facts to the discussion.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Oops, you forgot to explain how to record what's going on in the screen (and perhaps what the microphone hears) into a video file so I don't have to hunt through Mac's non-helpful help menu to find out how.

Before I get to recording that proof (and yes, it exists, your pretending not to see is just a delay tactic), I want to point out that your 2-clicks claim is indeed a lie. Remember, my goal is to have the still in a FOLDER of my choice, with a NAME of my choice. Right clicking and choosing to add a clip with that still, is NOT my goal. All it does it create a file with a non-unique name and in a useless place. It does take more than two clicks to do that. Worse, it makes my project (and you haven't said a single thing about this yet, not even your usual dismissive remark) appear to have been edited, when I *haven't* (the new clip must be deleted) and I don't *want* to edit it. I merely want to extract the stills.

You can hem and haw and rationalize around this, but it's still there -- yep, even in Leopard, the ultra-mature OS version that has been out for a FULL two months.

Also, "undarken" is a valid term.

Finally, do you really think that if a grandmoter clicked the "rules" option after going into preferences, she'd be able to easily figure out how to make it go away?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Oh, btw, good job there on your act of pretending to be "above the fray", and acting like you have helpful remarks.

Nevermind of course, that you just told me that, at best, I have to go through a convoluted process just to send a damn picture to someone from an iPhoto album. Let's see, shrink iPhoto down on my tiny screen, shrink down the email message, "drag" one over to the inside of the email so it's at the appropriate place among the text, send the email, hear back the the photos weren't interspersed like I asked...

As for expecting iPhoto to have an "Export to iChat" function? Well, first that's the wrong use of the word "Export" which has a formal meaning in most programs. Second of all, iChat isn't really a common target for images. It has an interface to change your buddy icon, but how often is that needed? Should iPhoto also have "Send to TextEdit" just because you can paste images into documents?

huh huh, yeah man, good point, that would be as ridiculously stupid as PhotoBooth having an option that opens the displayed image in iPhoto.

Or, if all you want is what you see on the screen, just switch to fullscreen, pause at the frame you want and press Command-Shift-3 to take a screenshot. Why are you digging through the Finder? Because you don't realize there's a simple way, and you didn't bother to find out. Some clever Googling can help you - don't be so quick to assume.

We still haven't established an easy way to frame capture, remember? The best it has to offer is to *add* a clip, that I *don't wan't*, which deceives iPhoto into believing my project has been edited, and then show it in finder, and then move it and rename it, and then delete the clip. Fun, fun, fun!!!!! Of *course* that's why there shouldn't be an "export frame" option!

So go ahead, keep it up, keep your head firmly buried in the sand, and just keep wishing wishing wishing *REALLY* hard that Stevie will come back and return all those h/js.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

No, I didn't forget to tell you how to do this; it's not a feature built into Mac OS X (or any other operating system of which I am aware). I use Snapz Pro X. It is capable of recording both a Mac audio track and a microphone track.

Adding additional steps to a process is just a tactic to refuse to admit that I proved you wrong. It only takes one more click to rename a file after the steps that I demonstrated. (Click and hold for a second on the file that is selected after "Reveal in Finder", then let go. You'll have Finder set for you to type a new name for that file.) So it takes a whopping three clicks and some typing to grab a still from a clip in iMovie and rename it. That's just so difficult it's criminal. Apple is stealing your time! If you merely want to extract stills (instead of actually editing movies) and are unhappy about how long it takes, you should be using Quicktime or another application, not iMovie. With the pro version of Quicktime, you can export the whole clip to a series of stills with only a few mouse-clicks and keystrokes, should you wish to do so.

You seem to be failing to state what should be in Leopard that isn't there.

You also seem to want to shift the debate from just how you're wrong to semantics. You failed to give an example of what would prevent your hypothetical grandmother from being able to "undarken" the subject line. Stick with the program, emo-boy!

In my video, if she does not know how to use the close button to close a window in Mac OS X, the Rules pane in Mail.app's preferences is the least of her worries. If that's the case, she doesn't know how to close ANY windows.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[drsmithy]

I used a 4 MB USB flash drive.

Highly unlikely. The first USB flash drives weren't commercially available until late 2000 (and cost a hell of a lot more than a stack of floppy disks).

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[drsmithy]

The point back then was that the Imac was the Internet Mac. Anything small enough to fit on a floppy was sent via email. Napster was all the rage at the time. People weren't adverse to downloading files of that size.

Bollocks. When the iMac was released, Napster was still a year away from even existing and 3 years away from the peak of its popularity. Back then, internet connections were *far* from ubiquitous and even for those that had them, a 56k dialup was likely to be it.

(This is before even getting into the whole "backups" and "have it with you all the time" aspect.)

If you needed something bigger, Zip drives were very prevalent and CD-R was coming into it's own.

Which was, you know, my point. Removing the the floppy disk was a good idea, lack of a replacement was not.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[mdwh2]

Older PCs don't have a CD drive. Older TVs don't have a HDMI socket. Older Macs don't ship with a two-button mouse.

The difference is there weren't thousands of PC fanbois claiming that the lack of a CD drive meant they were somehow superior to computers with CD drives.

Funny how that when Macs do come with two-button mice, it's finally acknowledged as a useful thing.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[UbuntuDupe]

Still haven't made the improved video (even though we all know you're going to pretend not to see anything in that one too). You're still wrong.

Adding additional steps to a process is just a tactic to refuse

No. The goal *this whole time* is to get the stills in a folder I want, with the names I want. That was the problem description from the very first post. Again, here is the ENTIRE process I have to go through, just to do that for *one* clip:

-Right click, ADD clip that I DON'T WANT
-FALSIFY modification status of the clip (hm, a lot of silence from you on this one, I guess the fact that the information about when the movie was last modified is completely useless doesn't really bother you) because it's now "been modified" even though I don't want to modify it
-Right click to find the still in finder.
-Right click and rename the still.
-Right click to cut.
-Navigate through finder and paste where I want.
-Delete still from movie.
-Make mental note to self that project really hasn't been modified since last upload, even though iMovie says it has.

(How many clicks was that again?)

Most of that has to be repeated each time, by the way.

If you merely want to extract stills (instead of actually editing movies) and are unhappy about how long it takes, you should be using Quicktime or another application, not iMovie. With the pro version of Quicktime

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm supposed to buy a professional-oriented program when all I want to is export a few stills? How much sense does that make? And, of course, use its crappier frame-navigating functionality. Heaven forbid I want to take stills out of a movie PROJECT. Who the fuck would ever want to extract stills from a PROJECT? Why would you EVER do that in the course of making a movie?

You seem to be failing to state what should be in Leopard that isn't there.

Oh, you mean Tiger, the OS rev that everyone was suppposed to be using and enjoying the BRILLIANT INTERFACE DESIGN of not but a few months ago? Well, most of this applies to Leopard so I guess it doesn't matter:

Ability to save stills where I want instead of having to add them to a movie just to delete them again. Mail subject lines that aren't darkened. Mail subject lines for which there's some reason why they're darkened. Windows in Mail.app that don't spill onto the dock. Ability to upload photos from an iPhoto album using a website's given interface that wasn't designed specifically for mac users, without having to navigate deep into bizarre directories that I'm not supposd to know exist. Ability to find photos I just cropped through right-clicking.

You also seem to want to shift the debate from just how you're wrong to semantics.

Where?

You failed to give an example of what would prevent your hypothetical grandmother from being able to "undarken" the subject line. Stick with the program,

Yes, I did give an example. The fact that the name of that "feature" (bug) is non-obvious and not discoverable in help. I can guarantee you no Grandma new-to-mac user would know how to change that.

In my video, if she does not know how to use the close button to close a window in Mac OS X,

She does know how to close windows. But look at the top bar of that window: nothing there will close it! And what about the OK and cancel that Grandma knows about? Where are they? ON TOP OF THE DOCK where they're useless! You're not very good at this, are you?

Oh, and for extra fun, see if Grandma can email me pictures in her little don't-access-this-any-other-way iPhoto albums. And let's hope and pray pray pray that she doesn't drag pictures into the body of the email thinking I'll see the pictures inside the text body, when really Mail.app doesn't endorse the concept of WYSIWIG for emails.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

You're still wrong.

And you're still refusing to produce screenshots or a video clearly showing what you claim to be right, whereas I have the video documenting that you're wrong. Like I have said in several previous posts, let's see some evidence, emo-troll-boy.

The goal *this whole time* is to get the stills in a folder I want, with the names I want.

Because it's SO hard to move or rename a still after you export it from iMovie?

If you don't like the way that iMovie behaves, use a different app. VLC has a very simple method of taking stills. Video > Snapshot. But no doubt, if you used it, you'd cry over the fact that it doesn't prompt you to rename it (because it expects you to be smart enough to rename files in Finder).

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

[KURAAKU Deibiddo]

Eh. I clicked "Submit" accidentally, instead of "Preview". Sorry. To continue...

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm supposed to buy a professional-oriented program when all I want to is export a few stills?

If you don't like the way iMovie exports stills, there are free and commercial solutions that give you alternatives. I cited one of the advantages of a commercial alternative. To which your only response is to whine like a little bitch.

Oh, you mean Tiger, the OS rev that everyone was suppposed to be using and enjoying the BRILLIANT INTERFACE DESIGN of not but a few months ago?

I said what I mean, but you do not demonstrate a level of reading comprehension great enough to debate it.

Where?

See most of this thread. Screenshots and/or video, or stop whining. Your laughable camera-work that makes it nearly impossible to follow what you're doing does not count for much.

She does know how to close windows. But look at the top bar of that window: nothing there will close it!

See above, or tell me where to find this "rules" page that does not seem to be in either version of Mail that I compared (both on 10.4 and 10.5). I've documented the "Rules" preference in 10.5's Mail.app in my video, and it's the same on 10.4.

I know grandmothers who use Mac OS X's Mail.app to e-mail pictures, and they seem to have more of a clue what they are doing than you are.

If you want to keep arguing, come back with demonstrable evidence of your claims.

Ha, ha, HA!

[eyenot]

GOOOOD! >8{}

Well...

[jrothwell97]

if it's bendable, then it kind of defeats the object. While those users were stupid to try and fit it in a slot-loading drive, CDs should be rigid so that they work in these things. Also, the amount of CD drives this will ruin could balance against the environmental benefits of the DVD.

Either way, this was given away in the Daily Mail, which seems to forget that slot-loading drives exist outside Macintosh computers. This is the same paper that seems to think that you can author an A-level media studies course on an iPod, and could therefore pass while being illiterate.

Re:Well...

[DingerX]

Yes, non-Macintoshes have them, I suppose. But what about what happens when you put a regular bad CD into the drive? On a Mac, you can always eject the disk by going to the Disk Manager (whatever that thing is called). Unless, of course, the CD is bad, then the disk manager won't necessarily load. No problem, just hold down one of those funky keys while selecting "restart." That will work, provided the disk isn't bad.

Well, you can always boot the machine into console and issue a direct "eject disk" command.

But then, of course, you'd say it was the user's fault for not knowing the disk was bad before inserting it.

This will be fun: Non-standard DVD player and an unusual DVD. Does the DVD adhere to appropriate standards, in which case, we can all gloat that the stylish and disposable Mac du jour falls victim to its own preciousness, or is this a matter of shared liability?

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

When a normal disk won't eject from a Mac, you get out a paper clip and push it into the manual release hole on or near the optical drive.

When a bendable, non-standard disk won't eject, well, you're just screwed.

Moral of the story: avoid these non-standard, bendable, "eco-friendly" disks.

Re:Well...

[0100010001010011]

When you insert a "bad" CD into the Mac it'll spin up and down and then spit it back out if it doesn't find anything and isn't blank.

Blank CD/DVDs will prompt you for what you want to do. I just did this seeing if my Mac Could read Wii disks (I knew it couldn't I just wanted to try). After about 30 seconds of it spinning up and down erratically, it just spit it back out.

Even then, all disks/drives show up in Disk UTILITY when not mounted. So you can eject/unmount it from there.

Or if you're really stuck you can always open the tray with (if it has a tray such as the MacPro)
drutil tray open

Or just eject the slot loading drive with
drutil eject.

No rebooting, none of that other stuff.

Nice attempt at a Mac troll though.

Re:Well...

[Kabuthunk]

Also, the amount of CD drives this will ruin could balance against the environmental benefits of the DVD.

Except that it says point blank not to put it in a Mac.
That's like saying that the benifits of a refrigerator is balanced out by the kids who die inside of them. If the instructions say "Yo, don't let anyone play in here, because if you do, you're too stupid to be a parent, since your kid just died in it", then why should Frigidaire or whatever be held responsible for children dying?

Christ... in today's world, even with warnings splattered over everything in existance, it STILL doesn't seem to be enough half the time.

Re:Well...

[MoonBuggy]

I will admit that I haven't seen every variation of Apple's slot loading drives, but I can assure you that a fair cross section of them don't have a manual eject mechanism.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

Re:Well...

[Macgrrl]

Because I had to use this yesterday on my work Dell...

I haven't looked on my new iMac yet, but have yet to fine a Mac that doesn't have a manual eject mechanism, it's just hard to find them sometimes.

To manually eject a disc you will need a paperclip. Somewhere to the bottom right of the slot there will be either a hole for the paperclip, or there will be a press plate accessible from within the slot (sometimes it takes a little bit of feeling around carefully to find it.

These days on newer Macs I generally reboot and hold down the mouse button to eject, that way I know it's going to behave. They are pretty fast to respond assuming the 'bad' disc hasn't caused them to lock up - at which point you would need to reboot anyway.

Re:Well...

[mjwx]

We've had all kinds of problems with the slot drives on iMac's. A fairly recent one my company purchased at the begining of 07. It cant read certain CD's (and not just the UDF ones burnt by windows) it can only burn to certain types of DVD's (hence the mac user is always running around looking for the right kind of DVD) and the ink jet printable materials DVD's (on just about all of them these days) flake in the drive and that cant be good for the DVD or the Drive (this is the only drive it does this on, even other slot drives are OK with them so don't tell me I need better DVD's). Plus the lack of a manual eject alarms me, I don't want to have to send a production machine away just to get a disk out of the optical drive if it breaks (Apple seems to disagree with me here).

Re:Well...

[heinousjay]

All so much easier than an eject button on the drive itself. Apple is truly a company of geniuses.

Re:Well...

[RMH101]

there is no paperclip eject hole on any current mac laptops. i've not had first-hand experience of the iMacs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have one either.

Re:Well...

[Macgrrl]

On many of the more recent drive, the level is accessed through the slot itself. It is typically in the lower right corner if viewing the slot horizontally (where you would insert a disc silk screen up)

Who is out of specs again?

[Stormwatch]

Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

So the drives are out of specs. Yet the DVD Forum's specs allow for thin and bendable discs? Doubt it.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[jesdynf]

I'm not sure I understand. "Our product X is designed to work with and has been confirmed to work with everything approved by universally-accepted standards body Y." This is an absolute defense, is it not? Whether X has been approved by the standards body seems irrelevant to me -- non-complying product Z is out of spec, and must accept the slings and arrows of uncaring vendors as part of the bargain.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[SharpFang]

The discs are non-compilant for a good reason reason - they aim at being environment-friendly - thin means less material used, bendable means won't break as it would being thinner and not bendable.

OTOH The Apple's drives are non-compilant for no good reason whatsoever.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[timster]

I think it's more like this: Product A isn't compliant to standard X, but works with all products conforming to standard X. Product B also works with all products conforming to standard X, but is also noncompliant itself. And now it so happens that Product A and Product B don't work together, and the makers of Product B are blaming the makers of Product A.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[kebes]

I'm not sure I understand. "Our product X is designed to work with and has been confirmed to work with everything approved by universally-accepted standards body Y." This is an absolute defense, is it not? Whether X has been approved by the standards body seems irrelevant to me -- non-complying product Z is out of spec, and must accept the slings and arrows of uncaring vendors as part of the bargain. Let me ask you this: is the "X" in your hypothetical Apple's drive or the bendable CD? See the problem? When two "X" (non-complying products) interact, it doesn't always work. They can both claim "X" (we work with everything approved), but they are both really Z (out of spec).

That's the point of adhering to a standard: everything works because each half of the interface is complying with the same pre-arranged rules. One product can deviate from the spec, and maybe it's no big deal... but only so long as everyone else follows the spec.

So it is not an absolute defense to say "we are compatible with everything that follows the spec." Only following the spec itself is actually a defense, and this case shows exactly why. In short, both Apple's drive and the bendable CD ignore the spec. They are both at fault.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[Alwin Henseler]

Does it even matter much? There's standards, there's de facto standards (which are usually more important, and may or may not match official ones), and there's compatibility with popular existing stuff.

Eg. DVD recording: you burn a disc, and the recording turns out bad. Is there a problem with your drive, or with the disc? Suppose you're manufacturing DVD discs. You make a batch, make recordings at various speeds using the 100 most popular drive types that are found in common PC's, or for sale right now.
Now, if after aging/environmental tests etc. all recordings turn out 100% readable with low error correction rates detected, then it was a good batch of discs, regardless of whether they are in spec or not. If half the discs turn out unreadable, then your batch was worthless, even if the discs were perfectly within specs.

Same here: if you're distributing some non-regular discs type, you should check it against popular drives out there. The manufacturer of these discs would have been better off if they had done more testing (and found this problem themselves) before mass distribution.

The up-side: if enough people get bitten, and the story gets published widely enough, almost every potential client will think twice before using these discs. Result: distribution runs dry, format dies. Market / darwinian selection at its best.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[timster]

I'm not sure it's right to say that Apple uses slot-loading drives for "no good reason". It's hard to imagine where you'd put a tray-loading drive on an iMac as it's difficult and failure-prone to load a disk into a vertically-mounted tray-loader.

Laptop tray-loading drives are all very flimsy due to the need to be lightweight, so there is some reason for a slot-loader on laptops also. The Mac Mini uses a laptop-size optical drive so it would face the same problem.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[Bidouleroux]

It's exactly as you said, except product B is eco-friendly and product A is not eco-friendly and is overpriced. Thus product B wins. And can eat it's cake too.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[ivan256]

the makers of Product B are blaming the makers of Product A

The makers of the cheap product which damaged the expensive product are blaming the makers of the expensive product.

There. Filled in your undefined variables for you. Hopefully that helps you understand the outrage.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[SharpFang]

But there's a whole bunch of slot-loading drives that are compilant.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[Tim Browse]

It's hard to imagine where you'd put a tray-loading drive on an iMac as it's difficult and failure-prone to load a disk into a vertically-mounted tray-loader.

No need to imagine - just go look at a PS2 or an Xbox 360, amongst others.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[Ash-Fox]

The makers of the cheap product which damaged the expensive product are blaming the makers of the expensive product.

Apple users claim Macs aren't more expensive than the norm anymore.

Re:Who is out of specs again?

[timster]

Yeah, and loading disks into a PS2 mounted vertically is difficult and failure-prone.

environmental friendliness

[fred fleenblat]

The environmentally friendly thing to do would be to have NO disc at all. Just point people at a download site and let them get the disk image from the tubes using zero plastics, chemicals, landfill, or other resources in the process.

No subject

[patricioalba]

Just buy a new one! http://www.spymac.com/details/?2324191

The Beta & The Omega

[Quiet_Desperation]

although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3

Well, yeah, that's understandable seeing as it's still so hard to get a hold of a PS3.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[nmalinoski]

I hope you're being sarcastic. The only thing preventing you from getting a PS3 should be a wallet two sizes too small.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[daveywest]

I thought it was because no one bought a a PS3 yet?

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[someguy456]

I hope you're being sarcastic. The only thing preventing you from getting a PS3 should be a wallet two sizes too small. I don't know what kind of alternate reality you live in, but most people don't have an extra $500-$600 to spend on a video game console, much less $800-1000 for a decent TV nor $50 games to play. Thus, making it still hard, in general, to get a PS3.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[geekoid]

HIs point was : PS3 are damn easy to find, precisely for the reasons you gave.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3

Well, yeah, that's understandable seeing as it's still so hard to get a hold of a PS3. I wouldn't take out a second job just to get a PS3 and put a floppy DVD in it.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[Anonymous Coward]

"it's still so hard to get a hold of a PS3"

Um, you're thinking of the wrong console. The WalMart near me had 4 PS3s and 2 Xboxes in stock last time I was there.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[jerander]

No he just does not want his ps3 to end up bricked like his xbox360

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[HAKdragon]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/08/25

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[someguy456]

The OP posted that is was hard to BUY a PS3. You and the replier are posting about how easy it is to FIND a PS3.
BUY != FIND

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Because I can go to my local Best Buy and see PS3s stacked all the way to the ceiling

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[Anonymous Coward]

They are? I was just at Best Buy today and they had to have at least 50 sitting in the middle of an aisle that have been there since before x-mas.

Re:The Beta & The Omega

[Quiet_Desperation]

I hope you're being sarcastic.

Gee, I dunno... you think?

Honestly, of all the posts I would have expected to have gone over people's heads, this was not one of them.

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

Because the Internet doesn't use any electrical power?

I agree that it's probably more efficient to download data instead of burning it on DVD and distributing it that way, but by how much?

RTFA

[Pluvius]

The EcoDisc works in other slot-loading drives. It even says that in the summary.

Rob

Re:RTFA

[SleptThroughClass]

Does the EcoDisc work in car CD slots? Some people will check if there's music also on the disc.

Re:RTFA

[WhiteWolf666]

I'm extremely skeptical about this.

The guts of slot loading CD/DVD/DVDR/DVD+-RW drive in a Mac are the same as those produced for PC vendors. Apple even changes vendors from time to time, from Pioneer, to Matsushita (Panasonic), to LG, to Sony.

Do you honestly think that Apple makes it a requirement for these disks to be non-standards requirement? Do you honestly think that other laptop vendors would insist on higher levels of quality?

The article is fluff. In fact, the manufacturers website specifically says do not use the disk in ANY slot loading drive.

Never trusted slot loading

[PingPongBoy]

Slot loaders look voracious, and what keeps them from scratching the disk when it slides in and out? If the ejector fails perhaps on a bad disk, it's surgery time for the entire drive. Ask for trouble, and ye shall find it.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone needs to look up hardness values. Taking into account practicality, you cannot scratch a diamond with a piece of garnet. The hardness of anything touching the disc needs to be a fair amount harder than the disc surface and then you don't have issues with scratching. You would hope they looking into this when they designed it.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[corsec67]

Yeah, and what about little rocks or metal that get caught in the wipes that cover the opening of the drive?

Just because it starts out without any thing that can scratch the disc doesn't mean that it will never be able to scratch a disc.

On a tray loading drive, the disc doesn't rotate in the tray, and nothing should touch the data surfaces of the disc, unless you are using a Xbox 360, and stuff gets misaligned.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because slot loaders are such a new, untested technology that haven't been properly thought through by the engineers! *cough*

Are you just trolling, or...? I mean, what keeps the disk from being scratched up when sitting and spinning in a tray? *roll eyes*

Slot-loaders have been in common consumer use for well over a decade (mostly in car CD players to begin with). The only real issue is if there's a problem with ejecting the disc since they're not as easy to get out manually as a tray-loading drive. I've never had a problem with any of the slot loading CD/DVD players I've had, and the ones in my and my family's various vehicles have had high volume, continuous use in less than optimal conditions (being driven around constantly is a lot worse for moving components that sitting in a PC on a desk somewhere) without a single issue. Aside from the occasional hardware failure which I'm sure is just about the same as tray-loaders, the only problems I ever hear about are with non-standard media like the irregularly shaped CDs and, apparently, these "Eco" discs. While tray-loaders handle them OK, even then you have to be careful to get them propertly aligned in the tray before feeding it in so, really, it's like putting an oval tire on a car and being surprised that the ride isn't quite right.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[Anonymous Coward]

"little rocks or metal that get caught in the wipes"? You can't be serious. What the hell are you doing to your drive that it gets rocks and metal bits all over it?

The disc in a tray-loader doesn't rotate on the tray, true, just like the disc in a slot loader doesn't rotate across the wipes. There's little potential to do more damage there than is done if you've got "little rocks or metal" in the tray you're putting the disc in when using a tray-loader.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[corsec67]

Not everyone uses a laptop in an office all day. Some of us actually use a laptop outside, where "little rocks or metal" sometimes appear.

The design of a slot loading drive rubs the disc across the door wipes as it loads, while a tray loading design doesn't rub the disc on the tray, and instead just picks it up and then sets it down. Yes, some tray loading drives don't make sure the disc is stopped before dropping it, but that is a separate problem, and can lead to they disc flying out when it is opened.

Re:Never trusted slot loading

[v1]

Slot load drives have four important parts that are relevant to your question.

First, they have a track on the outside edges that keeps the disk centered as it's slid in, and prevents anything from touching the media area of the disk to scratch it. This track moves down once the disk is inserted, and pulls it down onto the hub ring where it locks onto the hub of the drive, leaving nothing else touching the disc.

Second there is a felt covered arm waiting just inside the slot to lightly pinch the disk to pull it in. The felt on the arm prevents scratching.

Third, when ejecting the disc, the track lifts back up, and is SUPPOSED to release the disk from the hub lock. Disks that flex too much will simply bend like a pringles chip until the drive gives up and reloads it. This is probably what's happening with these ecodisks, they are not rigid enough.

Fourth, when the disc is released from the hub, a cup shaped catch presses the disk out the slot for you to grab - it presses on the end of the disk and so can't scratch it.

The standard for disks includes a support nearer the hub ring that presses on the bottom of the disk more near the center of the media area, so that in addition to the disk being lifted from left and right edges by the track, it's also lifted from the areas closer to the middle of the disk. This would help an overly flexible disk to release from the hub lock. It also is prone to scratching the disk, which is probably part of the reason apple omitted it.

Fixed...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yeah, that's understandable seeing as it's still so hard to get a hold of a PS3. s/PS3/Wii/g

Re:environmental friendliness

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, seven or eight orders of magnitude, tops.

Apple and "Standards Compliance"

[BSDetector]

"It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

Well, who are they to tell Apple and Sir Steve what to do?

Re:Apple and "Standards Compliance"

[theurge14]

The iMacs sold in late 2007 shipped with a Pioneer DVR K06 DVD±RW as the "SuperDrive". Perhaps you should save your snark for the Embrace and Extenders.

Doctor! Doctor!

[s31523]

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this... Doctor: Don't do that.

Slot-loading drives are completely unreliable

[silencer51]

Yes, they do look cool and I can understand how in some situations they can be less cumbersome than good old tray drives, but the fact of the matter is they break down very, very easily.

Those who have spent hours trying to get their car's CD player to eject a stuck disc know what I'm talking about.

The Matsushita drives used in Apple's newer models are especially prone to failure (I speak from experience)...

Tray loading ftw.

Re:Slot-loading drives are completely unreliable

[myz24]

The Wii's slot loading drive is the most robust feeling and sounding slot loader I've ever used. It also takes the smaller discs (Gamecube). My Mac mini's slot loader is pretty lame and feels like it is on the verge of failing every time I load or eject a disc. I have to insert the disc about 3/4 or more of the way before it can load it.

Re:Slot-loading drives are completely unreliable

[arb phd slp]

No kidding about the Wii's drive. I don't know if that was an in-house Ninty invention or something they licensed, but I'd like to see that type of drive in my Mac.

Not a CLEAR warning!

[Lord Byron II]

The warning was:

"no Apple slot in drive"

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[teslatug]

Clear the warning was...if yoda you were

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Thankfully none of my drives have an Apple slot. Most CD/DVD drives are too short to fit an Apple slot anyway.

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[AndyBusch]

Keep in mind that this issue is in England. I've more commonly heard them called "slot load" or "slot loading" drives, but "slot in drive" yields 8250 results on Google, most talking about this type of drive.

"Slot load drive" gets 13400, and "slot loading drive" gets 17200. Certainly more results, but not so many that I'd think "slot in drive" is incoherent.

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[mpeg4codec]

Warning: Mixing yoda and the subjunctive mood considered dangerous!

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[geekoid]

Bit trhe statenment still make no sense.
Shouldn't it be something like "Do Not Insert Disk in Apple Slot In Drive."

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[Serious Callers Only]

England

You mean Britain of course.

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[Anonymous Coward]

Should have been "no Apple slot-in drive", there a lot clearer.

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. "I checked my drive and there was not apple slot in it."

Hello, standards

[Minwee]

The question is whether either the disc or the drives carried the DVD Logo? From what I have seen it's doubtful that the "EcoDisk" would qualify as it is less than half the thickness and weight of a real DVD, so it's interesting to see ODS trying to point fingers at Matshita for not following DVD Forum specifications.

Re:Hello, standards

[Ash-Fox]

The question is whether either the disc or the drives carried the DVD Logo?

The picture shows a 'ECO DVD Video' label. No regular DVD label. It even has a warning telling Mac slot in driver users 'no'.

Re:Hello, standards

[Swave An deBwoner]

So now we see what happens when noncompliant removable media meets noncompliant device. Tune in next week for "Standards - Why Should I Care Anyway?"

Re:Hello, standards

[Minwee]

It gets even better. A little more digging reveals that the datasheet for the EcoDisc clearly states "The use of a DVD-Logo is prohiibited! (Excited bangy marks are in the original)

Re:environmental friendliness

[Shimmer]

Right, because running all the computers between you and the download site takes no resources at all. Wait...

I wish I had mod points...

[SerpentMage]

I wish I had mod points, but that is funny... I have a hard time describing this, but it is one of those situations where you reply with a comment that just leaves the other debating person in silence... A sort of cynical smugness...

Very environmentally friendly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Puts a bunch of broken Macs in a landfill.
Really swift, people.

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

I understand that the difference is probably great. I am wondering whether somebody has ever bothered measuring it as precisely as possible.

Re:environmental friendliness

[Alioth]

Well, it's not that the intertubes uses no power, but the internet will be powered up and will use pretty much the same amount of power whether the files were downloaded or not. So the incremental energy use of distributing this material over the intertubes is likely a lot lower.

Re:environmental friendliness

[jellomizer]

Well many of the internet servers are kinda always on with trafic or with out. So basicly all the middle stuff doen't count. The servers hosting the program will be split by the theoretical amount of CD shipped. So the endergy to make a disk vs. having A PC one for the extra time it takes to download it... I think the Download will win. There is the heat to melt plastic, and metals, spinning moters etc....

They didn't just drop the logo...

[Klaus_1250]

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo... They didn't, not until they were hit by class-action lawsuits and Philips reminded them that using the Compact Disc logo without permission (e.g. conforming to the Red Book standard) constituted to Trademark infringement and they were prepared to sue.

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

Okay, but there are other factors. Consider the power used by the PC during the download. A 4 gigabyte image is going to take hours to download. Had the data been distributed on DVD instead, the computer, at least in principle, could have been powered off during that time.

Re:environmental friendliness

[Bert64]

The internet uses electrical power yes, but chances are the servers hosting the files will be up anyway.. I doubt they will use much more than all the machines and raw materials required to produce DVDs...
Your computer will need to be on to read from a DVD, and chances are these days it would be connected to the internet in any case. And spinning the DVD will consume a little extra power.
Also, how many of these discs will never be used (theres one stuck to every newspaper, not every reader will use the DVD so a lot will just end up in landfill. Only people who want the content will download it.

Obligatory Airplane Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Shanna, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.

"I've heard the opposite..."

[tlambert]

"I've heard the opposite- that slot-load drives are bad for schools because kids like to stick things in them."

And I've heard that what they stick in the slots is pieces of the trays they snap off from other machines that have (had?) tray loading drives.

-- Terry

Re:"I've heard the opposite..."

[Macgrrl]

Very young children will insert things into any slot they can find (double entendres unintended there). when I used to work as an Apple tech, I would spend plenty of time removing coins, paper clips, random junk from floppy drives and CD drives and from the cases of any Mac with large enough air vents.

Friends with young children have told me about having to have video recorders serviced repeatedly from young children putting toast and other crap in the tape slot.

When doing laptop support at the secondary school, I saw very little of this behaviour. Generally only when one child deliberately vandalised another child's laptop.

Re:"I've heard the opposite..."

[Von Helmet]

During my time working IT support in a school, I had to replace a whole bunch of broken floppy drives. I found all sorts in there... pencils, pens, coins, bits of computer mouses, bits of paper, Polo mints... And yes - also the fronts of tray loading CD drives.

Re:environmental friendliness

[geekoid]

Considering all the computers to transfer it are already on, I can't imagine it being much more at all.

And Again

[EvilGoodGuy]

Another case of macs looking cool but not being fully functional. I absolutely hate slot loaders and once had to completely rip one apart to get a CD out of it. (The drive wasn't going to be used again anyways)

Re:And Again

[DaggertipX]

It's not fully functional for a DVD drive to not be able to handle a "DVD" that doesn't conform to true DVD specs and standards? Are you kidding me? What the hell are you smoking?
Not saying Apple should market these drives which aren't fully compliant, but the disc is also to blame. You do realize in a bad situation, sometimes more than one party can be at fault, right?

Re:environmental friendliness

[geekoid]

but in practicality, it won't be.

Plus, you can download it while doing other things on the computer.

Matsushita

[Quila]

Matsushita was part of the consortium behind the DVD spec. I find it hard to believe they make non-compliant drives.

So?

[geekoid]

I have ripped apart many tray drives because of a bad DVD/CD or a mechanical failure. It doesn't mean trays are no good.

While I recognize the issue, I have never had a problem with a slit drive, and I have owned several devices with one for a long time.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've ripped apart try drives to get a disc out? Did they not have the paper clip ejector hole?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

THAT'S what that's for...

Wow. Space-time contiuum and stuff!

[foxtrot]

I think I've accidentally been transported into a parallel universe. Is this not Slashdot?

What, you say it is Slashdot? Then how do you explain this article without someone (incorrectly) referring to "bricking" the Apple CD drive?

Re:environmental friendliness

[Scrameustache]

Because the Internet doesn't use any electrical power?

What's bad about electricity?

Not Apple's Fault

[nbritton]

Apple doesn't make disc drives. They buy them from other manufactures like everybody else.

Re:Not Apple's Fault

[Bryansix]

But they bought one that doesn't adhear to specs. Besides slot drives are notorious for getting things stuck or not working with all discs. They should have used a tray loading drive.

Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction...

[soliptic]

I see this story is tagged "Macs for morons", and various posts joking about destroying Mac owners' machines is not a bug, it's a feature, and so forth.

I must take issue with this stance. If we are to celebrate the fact that a certain demographic sector suffered inconvenience and damage to property, I must insist we aim the full force of our collective schadenfreude not at Mac users, but at Mail on Sunday readers ;-)

(Serious explanation: The Mail is one of the most nasty, deplorable shit-for-brained rags in the country, but sadly very powerful. I would consider the editor, Paul Dacre, one of the most evil men in Britain, for so shamelessly, irresponsibly and (sadly) skillfully peddling his insiduous blend of bigotry, racism, classism, sexism, and scaremongering. A typical Mail headline is something like: "Does your council spend your tax on teaching illegal immigrants how to give working mothers cancer?" It's not the Mail if it doesn't get in a middle-class whinge about taxes/councils/schools/hospitals, insinuate a highly improbable conspiracy involving immigrants, remind women their rightful place is In The Home, and stir panic on public health issues - naturally, all expressed in the form of a question, since it's UTTER BULLSHIT and they know it.

Evil, evil, evil paper.

Production vs testing

[ce25254]

10 million discs produced but never tested them in a PlayStation drive? I wonder what sort of testing they did?

Re:Production vs testing

[Anonymous Coward]

Chances are they didn't bother testing on a mac either. =P

Re:Greenpeace???

[ATMD]

I thought Greenpeace had some beef (tofu?) with Macs anyway. Probably to do with carbon footprints or recycling or something.

Perhaps this disk is the environmental lobby's means of wreaking revenge on those nasty, conservative, planet-hating Mac users...

This worked for me

[jlherren]

A friend once put such a disk in his MacBook and then called me after he couldn't get it out. I tried several things, including opening the Mac, with no luck. After some searching I found a solution on the net: Reboot the MacBook holding it upside down... the disk properly ejected right on booting. I don't know why and I don't know if it's reproducable, as I didn't want to try to put it in again. (btw, reading the disc while it was in worked fine.)

Re:This worked for me

[Qwerpafw]

This worked because your hand was touching the trackpad button on boot, which causes the drive to eject the disk.

Re:This worked for me

[v1]

I remove disks from drives here from time to time and I'd say you got VERY lucky, holding the machine upside down does provide an advantage, but it's so slight as to be amazing that it worked. The disk is too flexible and when the edges are lifted up, it does not release from the hub lock. Gravity can't be helping it very much...

Re:This worked for me

[Cervantes]

A friend once put such a disk in his MacBook and then called me after he couldn't get it out. I tried several things, including opening the Mac, with no luck. After some searching I found a solution on the net: Reboot the MacBook holding it upside down... the disk properly ejected right on booting. I don't know why and I don't know if it's reproducable, as I didn't want to try to put it in again.

(btw, reading the disc while it was in worked fine.) You know, I like it. I'm sick of having to coach idiots over the phone to hold down F2 or Del or whatever (no, no, not the F key and the 8 key... there's one called F8 above that. No, not 8. F8. You know, Eff? As in Fun? You know what? Just box up your computer and send it back. You're too stupid to own one). A laptop with a simple positional sensor in it, so you can just say "Hold it upside down and hit the power button". It seems simple and stupid, but it'd work, and work well.

Hmm, "Simple, stupid, and it just works". Isn't that Apples new motto now?

Re:environmental friendliness

[magus_melchior]

I don't know how much power is used to manufacture the Eco discs, but you can mount the image in Windows using 3rd-party software like Daemon Tools. In Unix-like systems, you can use your OS' "everything is a file" FS philosophy and some hackery to mount an image as a device.

No calls? What's his number?

[Anonymous Coward]

No calls yet?
What's his number?
That is, what is the number for Ray Wheeler, managing director?

Re:No calls? What's his number?

[Anonymous Coward]

No calls yet?
What's his number?
That is, what is the number for Ray Wheeler, managing director?

9998 03142

News at 11...

[Count_Froggy]

Environmentally friendly DVD makes better drink coasters!

Re:environmental friendliness

[louks]

If someone's putting information that's not worth keeping on a DVD, why is making it with less material the right answer?

Blasted slot loading Macs

[dwalsh]

My Mac Mini decided it did not have an optical drive for some reason. There is no eject button and no pinhole to force the ejection of the disc, so are in a bit of a pickle if a disc is in there and you want to get it out. Say like a rented DVD movie you want to return...

I rang the shop where I rented the disc, and they were pretty cool about it as I had a legitimate reason for not returning it, so they did not apply a late fee. It took several days to get the disc out. I could not open it, because it was under warranty, and dissambling Mac Minis has more incommon with watch repair than servicing a regular PC.

At one point I found my self holding the Mac in both hands and shaking it back and forwards to see if that would dislodge it. Later on the OS saw the drive again and I was able to eject it by the normal means of dragging the disc to the trash (on account of how intuitive Macs are).

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[walter_f]

At one point I found my self holding the Mac in both hands and shaking it back and forwards to see if that would dislodge it. You didn't first try to reboot your Mac Mini with the mouse button pressed down?

Obviously, you didn't. But maybe the next time... ;-)

Best regards.

Walter.

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[Registered Coward v2]

You didn't first try to reboot your Mac Mini with the mouse button pressed down?


Which, in tha annuals of stupid design, is hall of fame material.

Rebooting the computer to eject a disk if for some reason it can't be dragged from the desktop? Certainly the designers could have at leat put in a key combination to avoid a reboot.

As much as I like my Mac, soemtimes I wonder what the designers are smoking.

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[walter_f]

There is no eject button and no pinhole to force the ejection of the disc Correct, there isn't a separate pinhole for doing this.

In most Mac slot-in-drives I know, you can take the usual straightened paperclip and insert it into the right corner (*) of the slot anyway and try to touch a little lever and so on, further procedure like with all other opticals.

Walter.

(*) In Macs used by Her Majesty the Queen's subjects this might be the _left_ corner instead, but as an inhabitant of continental Europe, what do I know?

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[walter_f]

Well, I couldn't agree more.

I remember it took me some time to find out the "press mouse button when restarting" catch as well as (years later) the "insert paperclip into corner of slot as there is no pinhole" one...

After 21 years of working with Mac hardware and software, I am not a big defender of Apple's ways and means anymore (can you spell MacBook Air - you know, the maxi-PDA presented to a hopefully underwhelmed world earlier this week?).

A significant part of Apple's earlier great user interface achievements established by the likes of Jef Raskin, Bruce Tognazzini and others has been washed down the river in the last few years in favour of mere "style" and "prettiness". Interior decorations.

Best regards,

Walter.

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[e4g4]

The designers did, in fact, assign a key combination for ejecting an optical disk. Oh wait, every single Apple keyboard since Macs started shipping with slot loading drives includes an "Eject" key. On third party keyboards that were not, specifically, made for Macs, holding down "F12" does the trick. The purpose of adding the mouse button ejection at boot was so that you could eject a disk from a powered down machine without waiting until it finishes booting. Also, the mouse button eject event fires before the machine starts to boot off the specified startup disk, so you can prevent booting from the cd in the drive by holding down the mouse button. You can also eject a disk from Disk Utility, the terminal ("drutil eject"), and the FInder (by dragging it to the trash, or by selecting the disk and hitting cmd-E).

Now admittedly, the lack of a completely manual, unpowered eject on the Matsushita slot loading drives is a design flaw - but that hardly has anything to do with UI design.

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[Registered Coward v2]

On third party keyboards that were not, specifically, made for Macs, holding down "F12" does the trick.

Interestingly enough, that's not in the Finder help when you look for ejecting a disk. I wonder if it works when a disk has disappeared from the desktop but is still physically in the drive, as has occured to me on occasion.

From a UI standpoint, howeve, I thin it is poor design - it's not very obvious how to eject a disk if you are having problems, a situation that arises enough that a better solution, for example, wouyld have been a menu item to eject a disk (given Apple's penchant for putting things in menus).

Re:Blasted slot loading Macs

[Macgrrl]

No - I"m not humour impaired.

Yes, it is the bottom right corner.

Hold down the mouse button on boot to eject

[SteeldrivingJon]

It's really quite simple.

Amusingly, when I typed 'Hold' in the Subject field, Safari completed the sentence because I posted the same exact thing here a while back the last time this came up.

Haha

[kitsunewarlock]

"We've produced over ten million of these discs -- we've had less than a dozen phone calls"

Personally I think 11/10,000,000 (to round the numbers) is about an appropriate number for all people who...

1.) Care about the environment
2.) Bought the newspaper for more than a crafts project or dog waste
3.) Have a computer and still read newspapers
4.) Have a mac
5.) Actually would be smart enough to call the company to complain about the CD, and not apple.
6.) Actually put the disk in their computers in the first place
7.) Would care enough about spam to use the DVD.

I'd personally be very interested in seeing how correct my estimate is. This person is trying to imply that 10,000,000+ mac users who used his CD are doing "just fine" since he only got less than a dozen calls that he knows about...

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[Absentminded-Artist]

Wish I had mod points to reward you. Today I saw: "Teenage girl suffering from allergies 'was killed by brushing her teeth'..."

Without clicking I just knew it was on the Daily Mail. I hovered my mouse over the link and sure enough it was. (No, I didn't bother clicking through.)

One just can't emphasize enough how much of a yellow rag that news source is.

eco-what?

[ameboy]

So if AOL dumps 1 billion trillion Ecodisks on the market, does this make AOL eco-friendly? Oh wait, maybe they meant economical, they just wanted the public to read ecological into it.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mail is one of the most nasty, deplorable shit-for-brained rags in the country, but sadly very powerful. I would consider the editor, Paul Dacre, one of the most evil men in Britain, for so shamelessly, irresponsibly and (sadly) skillfully peddling his insiduous blend of bigotry, racism, classism, sexism, and scaremongering.

Sounds like the perfect counter-point to the BBC's left-wing, secular-humanist, socialist bull-shit. Where can I get a subscription?

Telegraph to give away eco-friendly DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

The British newspaper the Telegraph to give away a Mac-approved version of eco DVDs.

Re:Telegraph to give away eco-friendly DVDs

[makomk]

Ah, a myminicity troll. Go away.

No

[Rix]

They've specifically said they wouldn't support Apple's non compliant hardware, which Apple dishonestly marketed as compliant.

Re:No

[samkass]

which Apple dishonestly marketed as compliant.

Ooo... there's an accusation. Do you have any example of literature from Apple that says their DVD players were approved by the DVD Forum?

Re:No

[LackThereof]

Do you have any example of literature from Apple that says their DVD players were approved by the DVD Forum?

You may not use the DVD logo if your product doesn't meet the standards, and Apple probably did use the logo. You may recall the legal battle a while ago to pull the Compact Disc logo off of certain copy protected audio discs, this is the same situation with different parties.

As I recall, some of the nonstandard CDs got stuck in Macs as well.

Re:No

[jo_ham]

If by "non compliant" you mean "doesn't have an emergency eject system because there's no tray to eject" then sure, but don't blame just Apple - any computer with a slot loading drive is at fault here.

Re:environmental friendliness

[Trillan]

I'm less sure the download will win, but I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption in lack of evidence.

But the middle stuff certainly does count, since if a server (or switch, or router) becomes saturated it will need to be upgraded or split.

Obviously they did

[Rix]

And they decided that Apple's tiny market share wasn't worth holding the product back for. At least they warned you, they'd be well within their rights to say nothing and blame Apple for selling mislabeled drives.

Re:Obviously they did

[samkass]

and blame Apple for selling mislabeled drives

I don't see any "This drive conforms with the DVD Forum's guidelines" on my Mac. Anywhere!

Re:Obviously they did

[Anonymous Coward]

And they decided that Apple's tiny market share wasn't worth holding the product back for. At least they warned you, they'd be well within their rights to say nothing and blame Apple for selling mislabeled drives. The drives in question are made by Matsushita (aka Panasonic). Matsushita does not sell only to Apple. I guarantee you that the drive mechanisms in question are sold in a large number of non-Apple products.

Furthermore, Matsushita is a member of the DVD Forum, the organization which sets the standards for DVDs. (As is Apple, for that matter.) I doubt very much that Matsushita is actually selling mislabeled or standards violating drives. (One of the claims that's come up is that the drives lack some sort of guidance feature. Such a requirement is extremely unlikely to be in any standards document. Standards are written mainly to allow interoperability, so (in the case of optical media), they focus mostly on what is always common: the disc. They rarely if ever get down into detailed mechanical design of the players.)

Far more likely: this organization selling supposedly eco friendly DVD media is full of crap. When did the amount of plastic used in a DVD become a serious environmental issue? There are far bigger fish to fry. This company decided to take advantage of feel-good pseudo-environmentalism, is all. They quote you a few amazing sounding statistics, none of which are anything but the logical consequences of removing about 50% of the material from the plastic substrate which makes up the bulk of the disc. Duh.

The other logical consequences which they don't talk about so much are that the resulting disc is in no way compliant with the DVD Forum's standards. It's not the standard thickness and it's flexible, not rigid. It should therefore come as no surprise that it fails to work correctly in some players, especially slot load players, which are always more sensitive to whether discs match the expected physical standards than tray load players.

So enough with the crusading. You're being lead around by the nose by a company which is abusing your notion of what's good (they said the magic word environment!) to sell something whose environmental benefits are far from obvious. Show that the amount of plastic used in optical discs is a serious issue and I'll take them a bit more seriously. Besides, if you read the company's web page and PDF it's clear the product is really targeted at snail-mail spam of promotional videos and/or software (thinner/lighter/flexible are all good for snail-mail). If it takes off, this product might actually be worse for the environment by encouraging more companies to take up snail-mail spam of optical discs. It certainly isn't going to be used instead of standards compliant optical discs in any other market.

Optical drives in laptops

[Jim Hall]

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

Offtopic, but I know a lot of people like to beat up on Apple for the "no internal optical drive on the MacBook Air" thing. I have a Dell D420, which doesn't have a built-in optical drive (it's in the dock) and I can't say I ever use the optical drive until I need to upgrade my Linux distro. All my backups are done over my home network, or to USB storage. When's the last time you used your DVD/CDRW drive? And not having an internal optical drive saves a lot of weight and bulk in the laptop.

I'm not a Mac weenie by any stretch, but I think Apple made a good call on that for an ultralight laptop.

Re:Optical drives in laptops

[AKAImBatman]

Offtopic, but I know a lot of people like to beat up on Apple for the "no internal optical drive on the MacBook Air" thing.

I really have no clue why everyone thought I was trying to be negative about the lack of an optical drive. I thought the emoticon would make it clear that I was pointing to the optical drive's decreasing lack of relevance. It's not obvious at first blush (as optical drives are so ingrained in our thinking), but they really not NOT get used that much any more. If you can't get the software you want over the Internet, then there's a good chance it's too painful to go to the store for anyway.

Re:Optical drives in laptops

[Wdomburg]

Yeah, no optical on a subnote is pretty much standard. Now the choice of only one USB and no cardbus/expresscard slot? That's pretty asinine. :)

Re:Optical drives in laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Offtopic, but I know a lot of people like to beat up on Apple for the "no internal optical drive on the MacBook Air" thing. And before Tuesday's announcement, a lot of Apple fanboys liked to beat up on any notebook with no internal optical drive or no firewire (because all Apple notebooks had them). Now Apple fanboy haters are doing the same.

It's all fanboy vs hater bullshit.

No

[Rix]

For a wide scale deployment, they'd almost certainly have to add capacity that didn't exist before.

Distributing 4GB to lots of people isn't trivial, and that's ignoring the marketing fact that most people wouldn't be willing to do so in the first place.

The Full Story

[STrinity]

Actually, the Apple slot-loading drive was a response to durability problems experienced by students when they used Mac laptops. Apparently kids were liable to snap the DVD tray right off the laptop. (Not good.)

ITYM: Kids got their new Macs and thought, "Wow, this is so kewl! Look it even has a cup holder!"

Re:environmental friendliness

[MyLongNickName]

The savings is that there are no discs OR electricity used if someone doesn't want to access the data. The "environmental friendly" disc will be thrown away by the vast majority of the recipients.

Re:environmental friendliness

[Clazzy]

Of course it is, only the people who want it download it rather than forcing it upon every Mail reader.

Fixed one of these this afternoon

[Anonymous Coward]

In a Toshiba Quosimo, don't remember the drive manufacturer, but it did have guide rails. So it's not restricted to Macs. Or slot loading drives without guide rails. Interestingly the front bezel had warnings about not inserting mini-CDs or business card type CDs.
Personally, I'm putting the blame on the thin and bendy discs. What was it they patented again?

something stinks.

[Anonymous Coward]

if I were criticizing Apple, no matter how legitimate the complaint is, I'd post anonymously too

wow, you criticized apple fanboys with a side swipe at apple. And didn't click the no Karma, or Anonymous check box?

Re:something stinks.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

if I were criticizing Apple, no matter how legitimate the complaint is, I'd post anonymously too

wow, you criticized apple fanboys with a side swipe at apple. And didn't click the no Karma, or Anonymous check box? a.) I didn't side-swipe Apple. I'm not sure why you're seeing that. The "He's telling the truth" bit is a reference to his ownership of an iPod, not to his critcism.

b.) This is basically a throw-away account. I've been lurking on Slashdot for far longer than my ID implies. One day there was a story about another company complaining about iTune's monopoly. Everybody poo-poo'd that complaint, so I mentioned that he had a point and why I thought so. (As opposed to saying something like "APPLE SUX!! EVERYBODY WHO LIKES APPLE SUCKS!") My comment was initially modded insightful. Unfortunately, that invited criticism. Instead of taking my point head-on, lots of people took jabs at my post. One guy shot up to a +5 for cooking up a hypothetical (and, if anybody spent more than 3 seconds pondering it, non-sensical) scenario about my motivations for making the comment. Silly stuff, but not really out of the norm for Slashdot. The silliness shot to an extreme when all of my recent posts started dropping. Before long, some 30 negative moderations had been made, actually causing me to get banned from Slashdot for a couple of months. (It was specific to an IP range, I could still post from home.) A couple of months later, I started posting again, and those new posts were automatically modded as troll.

So I created this account to avoid that BS attached by my old nick. Frankly, if this one gets toasted by ridiculously organized Apple fanboys too, I really don't care. I can create a new account. BFD. I'm not giving Steve Jobs verbal fellatio just to be cool with a group of people. I'm also not giving Apple any more credit than I'd give Microsoft. They're motivated by profit just like BillyG, so I'm not defending them just because I like my iPod.

Two Sharply Pointed Comments

[Nom du Keyboard]

the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

What??? Apple non-standard again!!!

although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3.'"

And how long would it have taken to test that out first? Only guesses in minutes less than 5 accepted. Or couldn't you get the PS3 away from the kid?

Re:Two Sharply Pointed Comments

[Anonymous Coward]

although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3.'" And how long would it have taken to test that out first? Only guesses in minutes less than 5 accepted. Or couldn't you get the PS3 away from the kid?

They're probably still awaiting approval on the mortgage they need to buy a PS3.

Oblig. Monty Python

[MehNuffSaid]

"Discs don't have ejection systems, so no."

From "The Cycling Tour"

"Amazing, isn't it? We have also developed a tomato which can eject itself when an accident is imminent." http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode34.htm

Parent is not any more offtopic than others...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wish I had mod points to correct it.

Don't blame the drive

[randomaxe]

It's not uncommon for drives -- even tray-loaders -- to have problems with nonstandard media. I just bought a Pioneer DVR-115D DVD drive, and the instructions explicitly warn that business-card-size discs, as well as other oddly-shaped discs, are not to be played in the drive.

Apple doesn't make them

[ipjohnson]

They just buy them from other parts manufactures. I'm sure there are other systems that use the drives and have the same problem its just happens to be in an apple product so people start pointing out its evil apple and their non-compliant drives.

And what other standards does apple not comply with that is keeping you from buying a Mac?

How did it even fit?

[Anonymous Coward]

TFA says this non-DVD is "half as thin" = double as thick as a DVD, so how did it fit in the slot?

Re:environmental friendliness

[kidcharles]

If people are worried about the effect of computing on the environment, CD's and DVD's are the last thing they should focus on. A disc is basically a very small volume of plastic and a very tiny amount of aluminum foil. Computer hardware on the other hand is riddled with toxic heavy metals and other materials, which are becoming a massive global disposal problem.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no brit.. But considering your rant, I figured I'd look for some quick numbers. (When you libs start foming at the mouth.. This is generally a flag that ..well.. your WRONG).

Lets see..
It is Britain's second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun
And it was the first to sell 1 million copies a day.

Well then...seems that this 'evil right wing, middle class' paper outsells your liberal stuff.
So..to you, the wingnut, makes it evil.

Compare this to fox news. It clobbers all other cable news shows, yet the wingnuts call it all 'lies', even tho 'their sources' are called out nearly DAILY about their miss reporting.
Example... The NYTimes ran a story about how our Iraqi vets are coming home all wierded out and committing murders at an incredibly high rate. Well, it only took a day for that to be rebutted and the figures vetted to show they..well..LIED. Our servicemen are actually far, far lower than the national average thus proving that being in the service makes you less likely to commit murder. But, as it goes, facts are irrelevant for you back of the small bus riding window lickers.

Of course this will be modded to ZERO because it includes information regarding circulation figures.

It Is Apple's Fault

[BSDetector]

They bought it!!! They installed it!!! They put their name and logo on it!!! They sold it!!!

Environmentalist Revenge?

[captainjamie]

Greenpeace was upset at Apple a while ago because of all the packaging they used for their products. Perhaps this was no simple mistake but an attack on Apple by the environmentalists. Start your conspiracy theories now! Bonus points if it involves Freemasons or inheriting money from the deposed king of Nigeria!

Re:Environmentalist Revenge?

[geekoid]

Apple did shove the complaints up Greenpeace's ass with actual facts. Like hoe Apple is one of the most environmental friendly tech companies on the globe.

"My Funny Valentine"

[HTH NE1]

floppies that where calculators in disguised. Sheesh! Next thing you know they'll be making clothes-washing machines that look like TVs, thermometers that look like cellular phones, and face-washing machines that look like hot water pots.

Re:environmental friendliness

[thomas.galvin]

Because the Internet doesn't use any electrical power?

I agree that it's probably more efficient to download data instead of burning it on DVD and distributing it that way, but by how much? I can download a lot of data on one charge from my battery. I can't burn even one DVD. I don't know how it compares to stamped disks, but I'd say the efficiency gain from downloading is significant.

Re:environmental friendliness

[xaxa]

The newspaper is worried about the cost of giving away these discs. They sell about 2 million papers a day, I expect the saving by having a thinner disc is significant.

Re:environmental friendliness

[xaxa]

If more demand is put on infrastructure, its capacity is likely to be increased -- otherwise all roads would still be mud tracks, subway trains would be every 15 minutes and not every 2, there wouldn't be enough electricity etc. The Internet is no different.

Hypocrisy and Fair Use.

[eiapoce]

Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum." He claims the EcoDisc should work in other types of slot-loading drive And this disc... did it got approval and certification from the DVD Forum? Is it like sony branding DRM CD as AUDIO CD without adhering to the CD-Books standard?

at least it sets a clear case where a copy of the medium and not a original is needed in order to play in legitimate apple hardware.

old news

[AlgorithMan]

the (german) news-site golem.de reported problems with EcoDiscs and Slot-In drives 4.5 months ago...
http://www.golem.de/0707/53797.html

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[u38cg]

You fail to mention that illegal immigrants killed Diana, presumably while stealing our jobs and living off benefits.

I looked for this drive

[theurge14]

It's only on the Mac mini, at least as of 2006 as far as I know. iMacs, Macbooks and Mac Pros have a variety of Pioneer and Sony drives.

Re:I looked for this drive

[J.Y.Kelly]

Nope. My MacBook Pro has a Matshita UK-857 drive.

Apple Drive can have issues with other discs too

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not just these discs that the slot loading drive has problems with. I tried to load a music CD once and it didn't detect the inserted disc and would not eject it. I eventually got it to eject at reboot time. I reloaded it, and it worked the second time.

So I'm not sure its just the eco-friendly discs that are the problem.

Optional assistive devices

[tepples]

-iMovie

Why is Apple going out of its way to hide the existence of options for unwanted one-handed people? For these people, there is an assistive device called a "two-button mouse". I've read that even Apple makes them. Here I come to save the day!

right-clicking (SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! SHUT UP!!!!!!! THAT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) By that logic, nor does full keyboard navigation. Nor does the screen reader. Even if it isn't part of the core Mac user experience, it's still there for people who need it.

Some Answers

[LKM]

Okay, you seem to have little experience with Macs. I would suggest that just asking is more likely to get positive responses than ranting. Either way, I'll try to help you with some of your issues.

in fact 2 options: show edited photo in finder or show a backed-up original. Sorry, a lot of people claim this, but it just isn't there. I'm not sure what you're doing, but a lot of people claim this because it is there. Just checking... right-click on image, show original, yep. It's there.

I right-click (OOOPS!!!! not supposed to talk about right-clicking, Yeah, I think it's generally called a secondary click (some people like to switch the two mouse buttons). Other than that, all Macs come with two-button mice, and all MacBooks come with multitouch trackpads which do the secondary click when you tap with two fingers, or hold two fingers on the pad and click.

I *did* export it -- to iPhoto, where it doesn't seem to let me do anything with it except look at it in some useless album. I am guessing that you usually use Windows. On Windows, most functions are accessed using commands, menu items, toolbar icons or the context menu. On Macs, many functions are accessed using drag-and-drop (inside an applicaton or between applications) and gestures.

I didn't think of dragging it to the desktop, but what would be the point? I don't want it in the desktop, I want it in a file I can easily refer to on upload If you want to upload your image, you can drag the image to an FTP application or to a file upload form element right from within iPhoto.

Apparently, I'm supposed to go through the painstaking process of downsizing the iPhoto window, pulling up finder, and then dragging it to the right folder. No, you're not. You can switch applications, use Exposé and use Spaces during a drag operation. Furthermore, if you drag on a folder and wait for a bit, the folder will open. So you would probably do something like this: Start dragging in iPhoto, hit Cmd-Tab to get to the finder, go to your folder, drop.

Re:Some Answers

[UbuntuDupe]

would suggest that just asking is more likely to get positive responses than ranting.

My goal is to show the frustration macs subject their users to. Suggesting that I ask for help misses the point.

Yeah, I think it's generally called a secondary click

Yes, I Know how to right-click on a track-pad and two-button mouse, thanks. Despite the complete lack of mention of this option in any help menu.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but a lot of people claim this because it is there. Just checking... right-click on image, show original, yep. It's there.

*what* is there? You guys are being remarkably inconsistent. One of you says there's a "show in finder" option, another says it's a "show file" option, and now you're saying it's supposed to be "show original". (and of course I'm supposed to know "show original" means "show the location, in finder, of the file you just MODIFIED from the original)

If you want to upload your image, you can drag the image to an FTP application or to a file upload form element right from within iPhoto.

Okay, I don't *normally* use an FTP service when uploadint to photobucket, but I guess I was supposed to configure an FTP server. Must have missed that flyer when the MacBook arrived.

So, now your suggestion is that when I get to the website where I want to upload the photo, I'm suppose to (whilst wasting a lot of time) resize my little safari window, then go back to iPhoto, resize it so I can see it and safari at the same time, then drag it to the file slot, HELPFULLY avoiding that BURDENSOME step of actually learning where the hell the file is on my computer.

GREAT interface design, let me tell you. MUCH easier than clicking browse --> folder I was just working in pops up --> double click --> click.

No, you're not. You can switch applications, use Exposé ...

Yeah, good point. Going through all that crap is MUCH easier than "save as".

Re:Some Answers

[LKM]

Yes, I Know how to right-click on a track-pad and two-button mouse, thanks. Despite the complete lack of mention of this option in any help menu.

It's definitely mentioned in the help menu and the user's guide. New Macs even have little movies right in the preferences application which show you how to use gestures.

You guys are being remarkably inconsistent. One of you says there's a "show in finder" option, another says it's a "show file" option, and now you're saying it's supposed to be "show original".

Sigh. Look, I realize now you're just trolling. I'm kinda sorry I tried to help you. I have no idea how the menu item is called on your system because I'm on a german system, and you're presumably on an US system, so my menu items are in german and yours are in english. I see it is too much to ask to simply right-click on an image and see for yourself.

Okay, I don't *normally* use an FTP service when uploadint to photobucket, but I guess I was supposed to configure an FTP server. Must have missed that flyer when the MacBook arrived.

It was just an example. Works like that with every other app, I chose FTP because it is a popular application for file uploading. What the hell is wrong with you...

Yeah, good point. Going through all that crap is MUCH easier than "save as".

It actually is. Not that you'd ever know. It's obvious that you don't really care about these things, you're just looking for ways to troll people. Again, I apologize for trying to help you. Have a nice day, sir.

Re:Some Answers

[UbuntuDupe]

because I'm on a german system

Ah, okay, maybe if I speak German I'll get through.

Sigh. Look, I realize now you're just trolling. I'm kinda sorry I tried to help you.

Kein trollen. Informizieren.

have no idea how the menu item is called on your system because I'm on a german system, and you're presumably on an US system, so my menu items are in german and yours are in english. I see it is too much to ask to simply right-click on an image and see for yourself.

Du beschreibtest eine Option, "Original zeigen". *Welches* Original? Ich habe das Bild modifiziert! Das bedeutet, *nicht Original*! Was ist original ueber ein Bild, das schon modifiziert wurde?

Siehe meine Video. Die Option existiert nicht, wenn man tut, was ich getan habe.

It was just an example. Works like that with every other app, I chose FTP because it is a popular application for file uploading. What the hell is wrong with you...

Noch schwerer. Ich habe schon beschreibt, wieviel mehr ich machen muss, wenn ich Dein Method benutze.

Re:Some Answers

[LKM]

Hey, dein Deutsch ist gut, gratuliere!

Es gibt zwei Kontextmenu-Einträge: "Datei anzeigen" und "Originaldatei anzeigen". Das eine zeigt das original-File im Finder, das andere die aktuelle Version. Ist wirklich nicht schwierig zu finden.

Na ja, nachdem du sogar einen youtube-Film gemacht hast, ist wirklich offensichtlich, dass du dich auf einen Standpunkt festgelegt hast. Weitere Diskussion erübrigt sich damit.

Re:Some Answers

[UbuntuDupe]

Ich brauch nur:

1) einen Grund, warum das Window fuer die Mailregeln zu gross ist.
2) eine Erklaerung darueber, wie meine Bilder leicht zu Photobucket zu uploaden, wenn sie in einem iPhoto Album steht. (Jedes gegebene Method dauert sehr lang!)
3) einen Grund, warum ich keine Stills direkt abspeichern kann, sondern ein neues Clip machen muss (das ich dann entfernen muss).

Es gibt viel gutes ueber das MacBook, aber die obenerwaehnten sind unakzeptabel (sp).

Ich danke dir fuer die guten Woerten ueber mein Deutsch, aber mein Wortschatz ist echt klein, und ich spreche Deutsch nicht regelmaessig. Hat mein Deutschkentnisse dich verursacht, mich zu ent"foe"en?

Re:Some Answers

[LKM]

Ich brauch nur: 1) einen Grund, warum das Window fuer die Mailregeln zu gross ist.

Die Regeln in Mail.app? Keine Ahnung, ich verwende nicht Mail.app :-) Aber bei mir ist das Fenster für die Regeln scheinbar nicht sehr gross...

2) eine Erklaerung darueber, wie meine Bilder leicht zu Photobucket zu uploaden, wenn sie in einem iPhoto Album steht. (Jedes gegebene Method dauert sehr lang!)

Ich verwende Flickr, da gibts verschiedene Plug-ins. Scheinbar ist aber Flock gut, und PictureSync sollte auch funktionieren.

3) einen Grund, warum ich keine Stills direkt abspeichern kann, sondern ein neues Clip machen muss (das ich dann entfernen muss).

Das verstehe ich nicht. Um spezifische Fotos zu exportieren, kannst du sie einfach auswählen, bevor du "Export" wählst.

Ich danke dir fuer die guten Woerten ueber mein Deutsch, aber mein Wortschatz ist echt klein, und ich spreche Deutsch nicht regelmaessig. Hat mein Deutschkentnisse dich verursacht, mich zu ent"foe"en?

Ja, ich dachte mir, wenn sich jemand schon die Mühe macht und auf Deutsch schreibt, kann er nicht so schlimm sein :-)

Wo hast du so gut Deutsch gelernt?

Re:Some Answers

[UbuntuDupe]

Die Regeln in Mail.app? Keine Ahnung, ich verwende nicht Mail.app :-) Aber bei mir ist das Fenster für die Regeln scheinbar nicht sehr gross... Siehe meinen Film. Er ist nicht perfekt, aber du sollst sehen koennen, dass das Fenster sehr gross ist, und ueber das Dock steht. (spillt?)

Ich verwende Flickr, da gibts verschiedene Plug-ins. Scheinbar ist aber Flock gut, und PictureSync sollte auch funktionieren. Du meinst, als MacBookbenutzer darf ich nur zu Mac-freundlichen Seiten gehen? Jede Seite erlaubt, durch Direktoriesuche zu uploaden, aber wenige erlauben diese Plug-ins. Die Direktoriesuche ist leichter.

Das verstehe ich nicht. Um spezifische Fotos zu exportieren, kannst du sie einfach auswählen, bevor du "Export" wählst.

Ich meinte fuer iMovie. iMovie hat meine Filmprojekte. Ich will einige Stills exportieren. Es gibt keine solche einfache Option. Ich muss zuerst ein *neues Clip* machen, mit dem gewollten Still. Einem Still, vergiss nicht, das ich spaeter wieder entfernen muss. Und ich bekomme eine Warnung, dass mein Filmproject modifizert wurde. iMovie glaubt (falsch), dass mein Film geaendert wurde. Aber ich will den Film nicht aendern, sondern ein paar Stills exportieren. Das ist mein Schimpf!

Ja, ich dachte mir, wenn sich jemand schon die Mühe macht und auf Deutsch schreibt, kann er nicht so schlimm sein :-) Wo hast du so gut Deutsch gelernt?

Ich lernte Deutsch in der Oberschule ("High School") und spaeter bei der Universitaet. Ich bin auch waehrend High School sieben Wochen in Deutschland geblieben. Das war zwei Besuche nebeneinander. Eine war wegen ich eine Bewerb gewonnen hat. Die Paedagogische Austauchdienst (PAD) (sp?) hat mir die Reise gegeben wegen meiner Note auf einem Test und spaeter meines Redens mit einem Professor. (viellecht schlimmer Satz) Es hilft, wenn man viele native Deutschspraecher hoert.

(Viele empfehlen, dass ich mein Deutsch ueben muss, oder ich werde alle vergessen. Aber nach dir haben sie nicht recht...)

Vielleicht sollen wir irgendwo anderes reden. Aber vergiss nicht, ich must mich verstecken, weil viele mich hassen, wegen meiner Ubuntuschimpfen. Siehe mein Sig und Ubuntuforum Links. Allermindestens wisst du jetzt, das ich nicht nur Apple kritiziere!

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[Joe Jay Bee]

Hey, sure, it might appeal to some people's political views.

But those political views are formed based on information derived almost solely from their chosen newspaper (possibly the Mail), and therefore derived from a source that has no shame in lying or at least distorting the truth. Perhaps if they got their news from a source which didn't have such a callous disregard for the truth, their views might be less extreme, but certainly quite different.

Rip, mix, burn

[tepples]

All my backups are done over my home network Which Mac model is ideal for this sort of home server role?

or to USB storage. In other words, one still needs to figure a USB DVD recorder into the total cost of the machine.

When's the last time you used your DVD/CDRW drive? To play a proprietary video game. Even apart from game discs, not all car or home stereos have an iPod dock, and not all TV sets have an Apple TV box. For these, one needs to record a CD or DVD.

Re:Rip, mix, burn

[SanityInAnarchy]

Which Mac model is ideal for this sort of home server role?

Probably this. However, that doesn't seem at all to be what the GP was talking about -- they run a Linux laptop.

In other words, one still needs to figure a USB DVD recorder into the total cost of the machine.

Who said DVD recorder? They have these amazing inventions called "hard drives" now...

To play a proprietary video game.

I get most of those through Steam. But consider that GP uses Linux -- I haven't seen a proprietary Linux game that requires the game disc be kept in the drive. It's perfectly reasonable to use an external drive that you leave behind, or another computer entirely, to get stuff off the original DVDs.

Even apart from game discs, not all car or home stereos have an iPod dock, and not all TV sets have an Apple TV box. For these, one needs to record a CD or DVD.

Or buy a $10 cable to connect your iPod to that home sterio. I think a CD recorder, and the media, would cost a bit more.

I just checked, and yes, it looks like this thing has TV out (S-video and DVI). So, again, for far less than a DVD recorder, you can plug it into a home theater.

That said, for most purposes, I'd rather just get an EEE PC. Sorry, but Apple came to the ultraportable party late (as usual), with a big pile of Microsoftian bullshit about Innovation (it's got multitouch, and that's it), and it's more than three times the price of the most expensive EEE PC I can buy.

Dial-up still exists

[tepples]

If you can't get the software you want over the Internet, then there's a good chance it's too painful to go to the store for anyway. I can get it over the Internet, and it's delivered on CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, or BD-ROM a week later. Not all software publishers have something like Steam, and not all computer owners are willing to pay for broadband.

Re:Dial-up still exists

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

Someone who reads /. but is not willing to have broadband in their home? I guess there is a first for everything...

Re:environmental friendliness

[oldhack]

Insightful my ass. You don't even know if you're disagreeing with the post you are replying to!! MacDouches...

Let me get this straight

[Teflon_Jeff]

Despite warnings, people did something they weren't supposed to, and then they get upset because the warning wasn't explicit enough? Are you sure this wasn't in America? Sounds pretty American to me.

Warning depends on labeler...

[Animaether]

here's a demo disc image:
http://scr3.golem.de/?d=0706/ecodisc&a=52735&s=5

The warning on that one is much clearer. The plain 'english' still leaves a bit to be desired, but the graphics are quite clear.

"No Apple Slot In Drive" ..?

[GaryPatterson]

What does that mean? For an English newspaper, this seems a remarkably odd way to say "Warning: Do Not Use On Mac" or similar. I read that and recognised there was something about Apples, but it's not clear. What's an Apple slot? Is there one in my drive? Like Alice in Wonderland, we know all the words but don't understand the sentence.

I had to re-read it to get the right meaning. It's like one of those pictures - is it a vase or two women's faces? Or is it too early for me and my brain is just not working yet? I'm starting to lean towards that one.

There was another little picture with the words "tray drive (tick)" so I guess any slot-in drive is bad because only tray drives get the tick. It's still not as clear as it should be.

In addition to the poor wording, PC users need to recognise that Mac users have often been warned in the past about things that were perfectly harmless. "This website does not support Macs" usually means "change your browser agent to IE because we detected Safari." Lots of those interactive DVDs said the extra features were PC-only, but the film itself played just fine. We learn to ignore most warnings given by media outlets, because they're often just covering themselves.

It's not *quite* as simple as saying Mac users are illiterate. We're elitist assholes, but not illiterate.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps if they got their news from a source which didn't have such a callous disregard for the truth, their views might be less extreme, but certainly quite different. Such as? The BBC?
If I recall, wasnt it news24 or something that was briefly banned on one of your royal carriers because they were to pro-iraqi ?

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[The One and Only]

It is Britain's second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun And it was the first to sell 1 million copies a day.

Well then...seems that this 'evil right wing, middle class' paper outsells your liberal stuff. So..to you, the wingnut, makes it evil.

Compare this to fox news. It clobbers all other cable news shows...

"Folks, I'm no fan of reality...Who is Britannica to tell me that George Washington owned slaves? If I want to say he didn't, that's my right! And now, thanks to Wikipedia, it's also a fact. We should apply these principles to all information! All we need to do is convince a majority of people that some factoid is true, for instance, that Africa has more elephants today than it did ten years ago. Now, I don't know if that's actually true. But if it was true, boy, that would be a real blow to the environmentalists. As usual, the Bush administration is on the cutting edge of information management. While they've admitted that Saddam did not possess weapons of mass destruction, they've also insinuated he did have weapons of mass destruction--insinuations that have been repeated over and over again on cable news for the past 3 and a half years. And now, the result is, 18 months ago, only 36% of Americans believed it, but 50% of Americans believe it now! Man, that number's growing almost as fast as the population of African elephants!...What we're doing is bringing democracy to knowledge. Now, the "blame ignorance first" crowd is gonna say that something is either true or it isn't, and it doesn't matter how many people agree....If you go against what the majority of people perceive to be reality, you're the one who's crazy!...Together, we can create a reality we all agree on: the reality we just agreed on."

And even upgrading the distro

[wsanders]

I haven't even used a CD to upgrade a distro in a long time. This assumes you have a second computer with the space. It's not hard to set up net (or flash etc) installs anymore, and once you've made it work you'll never go back to CD/DVD distros.

I do

[Rix]

They quite clearly call it a DVD drive, but it is not one.

Re:I do

[jo_ham]

Actually they call it a "Superdrive".

Re:environmental friendliness

[644bd346996]

Of course not. There is no point to measuring how big the difference is, when we know that downloading is by far the best way to go. If something were to come within an order of magnitude, then precise measurement might not be a total waste of time.

Re:environmental friendliness

[James Carnley]

Don't forget that drives use quite a bit of juice to spin the discs as well.

Yes

[Rix]

Calling them DVD drives certainly does that, and really, not coming clean with the fact that they're *not* is enough.

Re:Yes

[zippthorne]

Ah, but don't they call them superdrives or somesuch nonsense? I haven't priced apple gear in a couple years, but I think I remember that when they finally started shipping DVD+R + CD(everything) combo drives they didn't call them combo drives like everyone else in the industry.

Re:Yes

[Rix]

They're described as "Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)" on Apple's website.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Apple doesn't call them DVD drives. They specifically market them as "SuperDrives".

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont they call them superDrives or something? You just happen to be able to play dvds in them...

DVD is dead?

[HeroreV]

Are you seriously trying to claim that optical disks are outdated technology? CD, DVD, HD DVD, Blu Ray? That's all old news that computers shouldn't come with anymore?

You Apple fans are really something else. You'll excuse just about anything.

Re:DVD is dead?

[MacColossus]

Don't lump us all together or over generalize. I never said optical media is dead. I am seriously considering a Blu-ray burner for my Mac Pro. I decided on the 8800GT to start instead. Time to save more pennies for the BD-R burner.

Re:DVD is dead?

[rootofevil]

depending on your usage pattern, yes.

ive used the optical drive in my powerbook a total of 11 times, mostly because i was lazy. once to copy a DVD that dvdshrink didnt like, the full set of band of brothers over a couple airplane trips (could have easily ripped them), one format/restore.

my linux box NEVER uses the optical drive, and i use it in my windows box for dvd backups and games.

id be perfectly happy dropping the optical drive from my powerbook to save some weight. i used to use the empty drive bay modules in my powerbook G3, back when you could swap bay devices out.

its not outdated, i just dont use it anymore on my portables.

Re:environmental friendliness

[networkBoy]

Right, because the incremental additional load on all the computers between you and the download site takes virtually no resources at all. Fixed...

face, meet fist

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject. Cause that's what I'd love to do to the people that pull this haggard, decaying old phrase out.

There needs to be a way to filter out comments based on keywords. Shit like:

kettle
FUD
SKU
strawman

If You Can't Open You're Drive...

[milsoRgen]

Seriously if you can't open your drive with a screw driver and take the damn thing out, you have no business using a computer. Wait these are Mac users we are talking about, never mind then...

I can remember taking apart a PS2 drive that had lost a couple teeth on one of the gears used to drive the laser back and fourth. Just busted out some old drives from the closet, finding the gears to be too big to small etc, well the teeth were the right size. A couple snips and good use of epoxy later, unbricked that ps2... For a little while at least.

The point is it was fun, getting drunk with my buddies and working with what we had. And if we were doing that back in our high school daze, I can't imagine a grown ass adult too scared or too retarded to get the damn disc out them selves.

Mac problem ( imo )

[BlueParrot]

I actually have to wonder why the drives were not designed to cope with this. When you write software you don't assume your data input is sane ( at least not if you want stability ), now I recognize that designing a drive you have a lot more ways that the input could be broken, and I wouldn't expect a drive to gracefully reject nitric acid, but assuming these disks are the same shape and size as normal disks, then I'd argue that the drive shouldn't be built in a way which causes it to break if there is something wrong with the disk. It doesn't excuse the vendor from breaking the disks in the first place, but I am a bit surprised that the drives would actually be damaged by it. Fail to read them, sure, but actual damage...

Re:Mac problem ( imo )

[jo_ham]

A slot load drive ejects the disk by lifting it by the edges (similarly to the way you might lift a CD out of a case by the edges).

If the disk is too flexible for this lifting to free it from the hub lock, the drive will simply time out and put the disc back down again (to prevent damage to the drive).

You can design the drive with an extra pillar in the centre of the drive near the hub, but it has the possibility to scratch the disk, so they are sometimes left out.

Given a standard DVD or CD, the edge lifting is more than enough to free the disk from the hub lock. These thin and flexible disks were not considered when the drive was designed, however, since they did not exist at the time. The designers simply worked on the assumption that CDs and DVDs would all conform to a certain size, rigidity and thickness.

Perhaps new slot drives need some extra felt-covered prongs near the hub to push the disc up to free it from the lock. Hopefully this won't mark the disk though.

Re:environmental friendliness

[Twisted64]

One (1) metric fucktonne.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[that this is not und]

And here I thought it was common knowledge that British people believe they'd perish if they brushed their teeth.

Quite recently, in fact.

[Valdrax]

When's the last time you used your DVD/CDRW drive?

December 20th, when I burned a copy of the answers to my last final of the semester to CD on my MacBook to turn in. Considering that roughly 70-80% of the students in my law school classes that use notebooks are using Macs, that's a decision that they made which may be add odds with the use of Macs in an educational setting in the future.

Re:Quite recently, in fact.

[Anonymous Coward]

... which may be add odds with the use of Macs in an educational setting in the future.

I meant, "at odds," obviously. I write good.

Standard media can fail too

[El_Oscuro]

I one put a standard (commercial) CD-ROM in a 52x standard tray loader. Apparently this CD had a defect in it, as it exploded after it spun up. Apparently these 52x CD-ROM drives work by spinning the CD at a much higher speed than a normal music CD and generating a lot more centrifugal force.

When it let loose, the force was powerful enough to blow the front door off the drive, send a cloud of shards throughout the room and inside the case, and destroyed the drive. I even found some fragments which had ricocheted into the kitchen. I only recovered about 3/4 of the CD. Not sure what happened to the rest.

Re:Standard media can fail too

[crerwin]

Apparently these 52x CD-ROM drives work by spinning the CD at a much higher speed than a normal music CD and generating a lot more centrifugal force.

Yeah, about 52 times the speed of a normal music CD. :p

Re:Standard media can fail too

[El_Oscuro]

I kind of guessed that, but was too lazy to look it up :p 52X? Thats a lot of RPMs. More like the bit I would put on my router than something I would put in my computer. No wonder it exploded. What, do I have to start wearing safety goggles when I use a CD? :)

Price of a lost CD-R vs. lost hard drive

[tepples]

Who said DVD recorder? They have these amazing inventions called "hard drives" now... I take a TDK CD-R or DVD+R, fill it with data, and lend it to a friend. If the friend doesn't give it back, I'm out 50 cents. I fill a hard drive with data and lend it to a friend. If the friend doesn't give it back, I'm out two orders of magnitude more.

I get most of those [proprietary video games] through Steam. How much do you pay per month for Internet access, and in which country?

Or buy a $10 cable to connect your iPod to that home sterio. By "cable", do you mean something with a 3.5 mm stereo miniplug on one end and what looks like an audio cassette on the other end? Because I've seen plenty of home and car stereos without line inputs, including the stereos in both cars that I've driven.

I just checked, and yes, it looks like this thing has TV out (S-video and DVI). So, again, for far less than a DVD recorder, you can plug it into a home theater. But then I have to carry the laptop into the room with the home theater and leave it there until other members of the family have finished watching the movie.

Re:Price of a lost CD-R vs. lost hard drive

[SanityInAnarchy]

I take a TDK CD-R or DVD+R, fill it with data, and lend it to a friend.

Fine, but that's not "backup".

How much do you pay per month for Internet access, and in which country?

I have Internet access anyway. I'm on Slashdot, aren't I?

By "cable", do you mean something with a 3.5 mm stereo miniplug on one end and what looks like an audio cassette on the other end? Because I've seen plenty of home and car stereos without line inputs, including the stereos in both cars that I've driven.

I also mean something with a 3.5 mm on one end and an RCA plug on the other end. In the case of cars, there's also FM adapters.

But then I have to carry the laptop into the room with the home theater and leave it there until other members of the family have finished watching the movie.

Well, that much is true. I don't think I'll ever use a laptop as a primary computer, so I always forget these things. (I can leave the laptop there and go use my desktop...)

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

Of course not. There is no point to measuring how big the difference is, when we know that downloading is by far the best way to go. If something were to come within an order of magnitude, then precise measurement might not be a total waste of time.

There's no point in measuring the fundamental energy cost per-bit of the Internet? It seems like a terribly valid concern.

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

Considering all the computers to transfer it are already on, I can't imagine it being much more at all.

"Considering that the child porn has already been manufactured, there's not much harm in looking at it."

"Considering that the cows would have been slaughtered anyway, there's no harm in eating beef."

Etc...

Re:environmental friendliness

[pclminion]

What's bad about electricity?

Speaking as somebody who lives in an area impacted by significant hydropower development, I can answer... "Quite a bit."

Mod parent up

[Jesus_666]

Wish I had mod points. +1, Insightful

If you buy the Hate on Sunday...

[rpjs]

...then this is the least that you deserve.

The Jazz Singer

[sqldr]

His story will make you cry

His music will make you sing

His triumph will make you cheer

The mail on sunday will make you VOMIT UNCONTROLLABLY.

The extra lever can be built in to the hub.

[argent]

You can design the drive with an extra pillar in the centre of the drive near the hub, but it has the possibility to scratch the disk, so they are sometimes left out.

The extra lever can be built in to the hub, so it never touches anything but the center ring of the disc, or the retaining mechanism on the hub can retract completely.

Personally I have never liked slot drives. You can't use small or irregular discs in them either, or eject them manually without power.

Slashdot != Steam

[tepples]

I take a TDK CD-R or DVD+R, fill it with data, and lend it to a friend. Fine, but that's not "backup". You got me there. But then again, I could be lending the medium to the friend as off-site backup.

I get most of those [proprietary video games] through Steam. How much do you pay per month for Internet access, and in which country? I have Internet access anyway. I'm on Slashdot, aren't I? Slashdot and Steam have very different throughput requirements. I was making my comment based on anecdotal reports that using Steam with dial-up Internet access or with the type of metered Internet access that is common Down Under is painful. Compared with the price of an external optical drive, how much does broadband cost per year?

By "cable", do you mean something with a 3.5 mm stereo miniplug on one end and what looks like an audio cassette on the other end? Because I've seen plenty of home and car stereos without line inputs I also mean something with a 3.5 mm on one end and an RCA plug on the other end. Yes, if your stereo happens to have a line input.

In the case of cars, there's also FM adapters. That's good if you live in the United States. Until about a year ago, personal FM transmitters were illegal for the public to operate in the United Kingdom. I'd imagine that they are still illegal in several other countries.

Re:Slashdot != Steam

[SanityInAnarchy]

Slashdot and Steam have very different throughput requirements.

True. I suppose I play Steam games rarely enough that it doesn't bother me. After all, if you don't have it running in the background all the time, it won't patch itself until you need it. (Mine doesn't seem to patch the games, even if it's running, until I want to play that particular game.)

Yes, if your stereo happens to have a line input.

I guess I've never seen one without one of those. When you say "line input", I assumed you meant the 3.5 mm connection, as that's what "line input" looks like on the back of a computer.

no, he was pretty much right

[Anonymous Coward]

mac users are uniformly the stupidest folks when it comes to computers, they rank somewhat below folks who have never used a computer at all. sucks to be you.

And so does Telstra

[tepples]

Someone who reads /. but is not willing to have broadband in their home? I have broadband. Not everybody I support has broadband. Not everybody I support is willing to move the family to a place where broadband with a large enough monthly transfer cap happens to be offered. Remember that article from a month ago where plenty of comments mentioned a 200 MB/mo plan in Australia with $150/GB overages? A more recent article suggests that caps are coming to the United States soon.

It is not good to be a fanboy..

[jotaeleemeese]

To be one clouds your judgment.

If the company putting the computer together and putting their brand name on it is not responsible, then nobody else is.

In specialized fields you don't just ask "oh well, sell us dome drives for our entire production line, it is up to you to do the right thing". You *must* be pretty specific and one would have hoped this would include requirements for compliance with common industry wide standards.

Apple is a great company, but when they screw up they should be taken to account, even fanboys should be able to discern this.

Apple's? You mean Panasonic's.

[Shag]

Apple is using Panasonic slot-load drives.
Not sure whether either company is representing them as able to do anything with ecodiscs.

That's not it

[Rix]

They're supposed to have guide rails, and Apple's don't. Otherwise this story would be about slot loading drives, not Macs.

Re:That's not it

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about Macs. It's about certain Matsushita DVD drives, which noncompliant discmaker X is calling noncompliant drives. Yet there's so far no documentation indicating that the Matsushita drives ARE noncompliant. Being that they're a key member of the DVD Forum, one would think that this would be easily solved.

Guide rails or no, these discs are too thin and not rigid enough to be called DVDs and shouldn't go in any slot drive--there's no guarantee that the presence of rails would prevent jams.

Use of manual access (or if push comes to shove, a spudger) should fix this issue unless the discs are so floppy that they can't be popped out, in which case, they should be ashamed for putting them out in the first place.

Nope

[Rix]

I looked, they call it a "Combo Drive (DVD-RW, CD-RW)". It's not a DVD-RW, and probably not a CD-RW either.

Re:Nope

[samkass]

The formats in parens are the formats that the Combo Drive and/or SuperDrive support.

See for yourself right here

Apple most definitely does NOT claim to include a DVD drive, nor do they use the DVD logo. They claim to have a "SuperDrive" in some models and a "Combo Drive" in other models which read discs of those formats.

The claims that Apple "mis labels" their drives are simply false.

Re:Apple's? You mean Panasonic's.

[Rix]

Ecodiscs work in DVD drives. Apple's drives (I don't give a shit what Chinese sweatshop manufactures them) do not read ecodiscs. Therefore, Apple's drives are not DVD drives.

Simple and relatively harmless DIY solution

[qompute]

Solution in one sentence: Turn the MacBook iBook PowerBook upside down, put it on a desk, slap it while pressing the eject button. Happened to me a couple of months ago when a German mag (brandeins) included a DVD and the solution worked for a number of "victims". No guarantees of course, but much more harmless than the hardcore creditcard, scewdriver or knife methods you can find on the web. This article describes the solution in more detail including photos... Have fun

Re:environmental friendliness

[644bd346996]

I said that there was no point in measuring the difference. If you have another reason to measure the overall power consumption of the internet, then it may be worth the effort (although coming up with an accurate figure will still be very difficult and thus expensive). But measuring the energy cost of the internet simply to compare it with DVDs as a movie-distribution medium would be a colossal waste of time, money, and energy.

Re:environmental friendliness

[jimicus]

This is the Daily Mail. Its readers don't use the Internet because they're afraid of the assorted pornographers, paedophiles, perverts, phishermen and other things beginning with the letter "P".

and what about mini CDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

how do the Macs (and PS3?) deal with mini CDs ?

I know the Wii slot drive handles them fine as
it can load in gamecube discs....

And they're lying

[Rix]

As they do not support the DVD format. If they did, the ecodiscs would work.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

[mdwh2]

It is Britain's second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun
And it was the first to sell 1 million copies a day.

Well then...seems that this 'evil right wing, middle class' paper outsells your liberal stuff.
So..to you, the wingnut, makes it evil.

The fact that it is popular does not change what the OP says - that just makes it sadder.

Or, according to you, is The Sun the best paper ever?

And I'm not sure what his "liberal stuff" is - he never mentioned he reads a paper. Neither do I.

GREENPEACE SABOTAGE!

[StevenABallmer]

Greenpeace is getting smarter I see!

Re:Apple's? You mean Panasonic's.

[Shag]

Apparently all "A" companies are afflicted with this problem, since Acer and AOpen also appear to sell systems with Matshita slot-load drives.