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The Stigma of a Tech Support Background
An anonymous reader writes "Since the last semester of college I've been working as a first line tech support agent. At first it was just a way to earn some extra money; then it became a way to scrape by until I could find myself a real job. By now (almost two years in), it's beginning to feel like a curse. The problem I'm having is that no matter how many jobs I apply for, and no matter how well-written my applications are, I can't seem to get further than the first interview. For some reason it seems a lot of employers will completely overlook my degree in computer engineering, the fact that I can show them several personal projects that I've worked on, and that I can show them that I clearly possess the skills they are looking for. I've had several employers tell me to my face, and in rejection letters, that my 'professional background' isn't what they're looking for even when they've clearly stated that they're looking for recent graduates. In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years. I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems and if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence."
No offense intended, but at least the tech support people I talk to on the phone just follow a script (which make you follow), so to me first line support means 'a hurdle I need to pass asap'. Last time I needed "support" they asked me to reboot my computer, then press the windows key, move the mouse to 'run', then type c-m-d then press enter, then type in the black box 'i-p-c-o-n-f-i-g', etc. This was my telco and the problem was I didn't have service. The woman on the phone said they only supported Windows and because I said I had linux she wouldn't open a ticket. I had to fake replacing the linux computer with a windows one ("luckily" I had a work laptop around) before having a ticket open.
Now, I'm not saying this is your case. But it's hard to believe that these kind of people are any good when it comes to computers. [I'm not saying they're stupid]
Two years doing that - looks like they just can't find a better job. If they didn't find another job elsewhere and they didn't get promoted in their absolutely low level job...well, it doesn't scream 'talent', does it?
You obviously had a chance to ask for more details, did you?
Anyway...this is what I'd think if I was interviewing you, but I might be completely wrong. I'd like to think you would have a fair chance to change my mind, though.
Given a person with no experience and a degree, and a person with some 'support' experience and a degree, a company is going to normally higher the person with experience.
Perhaps there are other reasons that you are not mentioning or that you don't know of? Do you smell?
"In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years."
I'll just simply say bullshit.
This story smells. You have worked in a call center for the past 2 years? Was 2 years ago your last semester of college?
Maybe in your case you have already stumbled into the Peter Principle?
In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years.
Are you a good tech? If so, why haven't you been promoted? Or at least assigned to head tech or second level support?
No offense, but when I did the same thing as you I was in "Team Leader" training in 3 months. All call centers I have worked at (only 2) and most that I have heard of, have enough turn over that by 2 years, a "Computer Engineer" should be moving up the ranks.
I think part of the Peter Principle talks about how lower level or entry level jobs are usually done well by those that wouldn't do well in management or more difficult jobs. Also, perhaps you are not a good tech, but a great developer. This all might be working against you, to no real fault of your own.
Perhaps take a part time job as a developer... advertise that you are willing to work part-time for no benefits and that you know some modern languages; that you are willing to work the night shift doing testing; that you will work for $int_cheap_labor per hour - something to get your foot in the door and working wth professionals.
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs. There must be a little more to it. Try to advance in your current postion, or broaden your *professional work* experience (not personal projects).
No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
Maybe you need a dry run with an interview expert to evaluate/grade your performance.
Its very possible you are committing one or more "interview success killers" and don't even know it. It may have nothing to do with your resume.
In my experience, the best solution is to leave it out. If your experience is limited to JUST call-center work, list every responsibility you had while leaving out the fact that it was tech support. If you can dance around it well enough (And the company name doesn't give it away), you get all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. Short Version: Lie.
But clearly you have something better to say...
For some reason that unfortunate perception just keeps being spread by the people who use tech support.
It takes time and connections to advance in IT. I'm 27 and have been in the field for 9 years. I started as a lowly computer repair tech (thats the only job i could get), and now i do systems engineering (got the job just last year). Over the years, I added to my resume, made more connections, and slowly moved up the ladder, even with your degree and work experience.
Why don't you try to move on to desktop/deskside support?
There is plenty of need for that. You'll learn more and you have the chance to stay up to date on a lot more tech then you will on the phone.
Aside from that, I would question your staying in phone support for 2 years. Though, I think there are valuable skills in phone support, more than six months is over kill.
The person who interviewed you was the one who called you two weeks ago. They said, "the computer beep is too loud" and you said, "ok. first, we have to reinstall windows from the recovery disk."
Fight Spammers!
I started out working TS, too (I am currently a developer)...and companies offering most of the positions I was applying for understood that a couple years of experience in TS was a great boon because at the end of the day no matter how good you are as a developer, your software has to get used by people; people that get frustrated, people that have certain patterns of doing things that aren't the same as engineers - and a lot of engineers just don't understand that until they have to deal with those people day in and day out.
... i.e. Tech Support.
I am nearing the point in my career where I will have to start *hiring* coders, and one of the first things I am going to look for is a background in bridging the gap between "software systems" and "people"
If the positions you are applying to don't seem to get that then I can only offer 2 thoughts:
1. They don't understand software development that well, so you should probably not work for them.
2. *Explain* what I just said above in your interview.
Really, your career is now in tech. support and given the usual turnover in support staff, 2 years is a long time to be on the bottom rung (please don't take this as an offense, it's just an observation). It does show that for whatever reason, you haven't progressed in your current employment.
If you're looking for a career change (from what you're doing now) then the good news is that your CV is "marketable" as you're getting interviews, the problem must be what the interviewer sees when you're in the interview. Sounds like it's time for a makeover before you become institutionalised.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Do like I did, intern for free at a local computer shop for 2 months, prove your worth and get hired. After that, go out and get your A+, its a little overwhelming at first but after you pass the exam you have a piece of paper saying you are worth something in the tech world.
Work at the shop for a year. Take whatever wage they sling you, they will give you a raise as soon as all the customers call up looking to speak to you directly especially if you start managing big accounts.
After you complete your one year with the computer shop and have your A+ Cert combined with your help desk experience you can finally get a real tech job.
or start selling hackintoshes....
Dr. D
Are you still first line tech support? I've worked with a lot of low level tech support folks and most of them were absolute idiots. If you haven't advanced in 2 years, it's kind of a red flag. At this point, most employers are going to be looking for something to show that you've got a strong upside. They either want someone who's involved in either programming duties of some sort or where they've got the keys to the kingdom. If you don't have admin level access it says that your current employer thinks very little of you.
I work at a unique company in which a majority of the our tech support staff have been there for years. The youngest ones are in their late 20's, most in their 40's. A lot of former COBOL/RPG programmers in their 50's and 60's too.
Outside of the former COBOL/RPG folks (it's understandable that they couldn't find a development job, contrary to what a recent /. article seemed to proclaim), the rest of em have zero ambition. They're fairly motivated and mostly not idiots, but that's a job for a 22-year old right out of school. Anything longer is career suicide (or at least a major hurdle). If I were you I'd quit asap (I surely hope you don't have dependents that rely on you for income...). First thing I'd do is re-do my resume, stressing the development skills/experience (if you have any?), then repost on monster, careerweb, linkedin, etc. Within 48 hours, unless you are radioactive in some strange way, then there will be 5 voicemails from recruiters/headhunters offering you underpaid contract work. I'd take the job with the best prospects for long-term employment.
When you say tech support, they usually assume you were a phone person who did nothing but read from a script, which IMO show's no skill at all. However, if your jobs required more, say so, tell them the things you did. I have a job in IT(college entry level) and I call it tech support, but I've never had to pick up a phone, my job is all hands-on. ESX Config, Cisco network deployment, etc.
also, were you working there out-of-college, or during college? The difference is that out-of-college you should have been looking for more, but during college you have the excuse that you were working during school, so that's a good mid-level job to have while still focusing on your studies.
People have usually decided whether they're going to hire you after the first couple of minutes. They often don't really know the reason for rejecting other than "a feeling", but still feel the need to justify their decision.
Work on interview technique.
I was a developer for 10 years then decided to get a new job. I got lots of rejection before I landed a new position. I think that's just the way it goes. I probably got rejected 20-30 times. If they didn't call back, oh well. I had plenty of interviews that seemed to go just fine, then never got called back. It could be the economy, there's probably lots of qualified candidates looking for work. Just keep trying, make getting a job your full time job, and you'll have one before you know it. The current one I have was landed through a headhunter, I'm making twice what I was previously with a far better working environment. Don't get discouraged, I think lots of rejection is par for the course.
It is your resume. You put what you want on it to appeal to the company.
If you think your tech-support experience is negative... get it out of your resume!
If they ask what you have been doing for the past 2 years, say you have been traveling the world.
This is hardly a complicated issue.
Have you asked yourself how it has come to be that you are answering first level tech support calls with a degree in computer engineering??? After two years!?! If I were to looking at your resume, I'd probably come away thinking you were either unmotivated or not too bright. Sadly there are a lot of idiots that make it out of Universities with a degree.
Get into back line support ASAP.
--AC
Delete it. Say that you graduated and then got to a two-years sabbatical for living the wild life till you settled down and started working like a beast for the rest of your life. That will thrill them. Other stories are also possible, you can use your inventiveness, that same inventiveness that got you to the first Slashdot page.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
Are you restricting yourself to certain positions?
Are you restricting yourself to certain locations?
Are you restricting yourself to certain industries?
At the very least can you get an IT position at a large company where once you are in the door you can work your way to another job. Have you tried?
When it comes to getting that first real job you can't be picky, you need one under your belt.
... So the problem isn't your resume or background. When they called you in for the first interview, they had every intention of giving you a fair shot - otherwise it'd be an utter waste of THEIR time.
Your background isn't what's fucking you - it's whatever you're doing wrong in-person that's fucking you.
I'm not about to speculate on what that thing is - but you need to get rid of this stupid "Everybody is prejudging me because my tech support background" attitude ASAP. It's not helping.
A few years ago I hired a girl that worked in the desktop support group of a client I was consulting at. She had a CS degree, but I could care less about that. One day she showed me a project she was doing with Python and TurboGears. I had no idea she could code. After looking through what she had (and making sure she hadn't lifted it from somewhere) I gave her my card and told her to call me if she ever got tired of fixing PCs.
A couple of months later she was working freelance (from home), on a laptop provided by me, coding Python and pulling in 5x her old salary. Worked for me for about a year, then took a job with a startup that also employed her boyfriend.
I don't know how widespread this is, but I can tell you that I don't care about where you've been the past two years, what your degree (or lack thereof) is, or what god you pray to. If you can ace two days of technical and non-tech interviews, you're hired. These companies are definitely doing it wrong. In fact, I'd say working support might give you interpersonal skills that many developers lack. This girl certainly was a great person to work with, aside from just being good at coding.
And well... yes, she was cute. But also engaged =)
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Personally, I wouldn't hire you either - you have no experience.
"How can I get experience if no one will hire me?"
Well, you have an /excellent/ choice of career paths in computers, because you don't need a benevolent company to hire you in order to get experience. In fact, in my own hiring, it's the experience that happens /outside/ of a "job" that makes the most difference. If you really want to succeed, do something. If you are trying to be a programmer, write that project you've been wanting to do; don't wait. Once you have it written, that goes on your resume. I wrote a /HORRIBLE/ stupid graphing calculator for Windows CE and started selling it, and that is absolutely what got me hired as a coder. Don't have the werewithal to make a whole project? Contribute to existing open-source packages, and reap the same benefits.
Or maybe you're looking to become a network engineer instead of a programmer. Set up your own virtual cluster of machines running under KVM, make it do fun things, show off your ability to create a secure environment, and put it on your resume as experience. Even better, when they ask you about it, you can offer them a copy of the entire setup on a DVD, with all the virtual machines...
Either one of those scenarios would get you hired by me, regardless of the rest of your resume -- not only does it show definitively you can do what you want to do... far more important is the fact that it demonstrates you love doing this stuff; you love it enough to do it on your own. That is key.
You're lucky - you've got a field where the cost of doing it "in your garage" is absolutely minimal.
Call center experience /is/ good experience, in my personal opinion. I had early jobs at call centers. I still value that experience as a developer, because it helps me remember that people are idiots who will mess things up if you give them the slightest opportunity. This is critical to keep in mind when developing anything. But it's no substitute for actual experience in programming. I think you can sell your experience in call centers to someone who will hire you to do other things, but you'd best have some additional selling points, because while that experience has some value, it's not a hiring-value.
Don't say:"I've had a crap job for the last 2 years doing tech support and now I want a real job."
Instead, say:"For the last two years I've been doing support and really getting to understand how **real** people interact with software. It sure has been an eye opener and I've learnt a lot about how to think about effective user interface design than I ever did reading books or in that 6 month college course...." Now that is something I just came up with in 3 seconds... sit down and think of at least 5 ways to present the tech support in a positive light and turn it to your advantage.
Oh, and remember, in this game that degree of yours is close to worthless. It might get your foot into the door but you still have to sell your product (ie. you). After a while nobody cares about your degree any more. In my last 4 jobs nobody even asked me about my degree and I did not even mention it on my resume.
Also, as a hirer, I seldom look at degrees or the number of As the candidate got. I look for the "bushy tail factor": someone that is keen and adaptable and can learn on the job. I once needed a C programmer but hired a person who only knew BASIC because he displayed the traits of a person that would quickly learn anything needed to get the job done.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Find a tech support in the company that you want to work for, THEN when the engineering position in that company opens up, apply for it.
That way, you already have your foot in the door, plus you will already be familiar with the business processes in place, so that gives you an advantage over outsiders trying to get the job.
In your case, your resume and your degree are not going to get you a job, especially if it has been 2 years. If you're more than 6 months out of school, most places consider you an "experienced professional". As far as I can tell, the only way to overcome lack of experience fresh out of school if you don't know anybody is to have a 4.0 GPA.
I'm coming up on 6 years since I graduated with a computer engineering degree, and I'm still working as a systems administrator. The closest thing to CpE I see are crazy perl regex's or the odd Java code when an application on one of my servers "suddenly stops working".
100% of the graduates I know that were employed in engineering when they graduated or shortly thereafter had either experience through co-ops/internships, stellar grades and well known to professors, or they knew somebody who was already working where they were hired on.
If you really think your tech support experience is hurting your chances don't mention it say you spent the past two years volunteering in the peace corps or fighting global warming tell them anything they want to hear i'm sure that is what your competition is doing!
Your resume is supposed to get you a job. You aren't supposed to lie on it, but there's no law that says you have include items that don't serve your interests. If someone asks what you've been doing, just tell them it was a stop-loss job while you looked for work.
I piss off bigots.
That's what it is all about. I know this isn't addressing specifically what you asked, but it does address how to get a job. The answer is the post topic.
While people can and do get jobs cold, you find far more get it through some kind of in. You know someone at a company, or someone who knows someone. A personal introduction goes a hell of a long way.
So what you really need to be doing is shaking down all your contacts. Talk to your friends, family, people you've worked with, professors, etc. See if they know anyone in the industry you want to work in. Have them introduce you, then see if maybe they know of a group that'd like to hire you.
You may even find a job springs up where there wasn't one before. Someone says "Well we aren't looking right now, but you know, I think you'd work well in this group so let me talk to them." They might not be actively looking, but if introduced to someone good, they decide to hire that person.
its called fudging a resume. masters of fudge go a long way. just stick to your story, and have a friend back it up by giving a reference check, "oh ya, i was the manager at so and so, and joe was a real fine employee!!!" -- getting a job is like getting laid, its all in how you approach it, and if you're good at it, you can get whatever job you want. The best job, of course, is having none at all, and watching the cash flow into your bank accounts every day.
It's not that you have Tech Support on your resume, it's that you don't have any sort of developer position on your resume. According to some of the recruiters I've talked to, at least in my market developers must have 3 years of experience to be considered seriously for a junior-level position because statistically most developers make their biggest mistakes in their first 3 years (myself included). Since all employers try to avoid being the victim of those sorts of mistakes, entry level developers have a very difficult time getting their foot in the door.
Some concrete suggestions:
- Smaller startups may be more willing to take the risk on you than larger corporations.
- If your personal projects are any good, try selling them. If you do, then you are now the sole proprietor of a software business, and may not have to worry about finding a job.
- If your current company isn't giving you promotions you're qualified for, then you should be looking to switch companies. Put out your resume quietly, though.
- Take any development job you can, even if it's at intern level. Your pay is going to suck for a while.
I am officially gone from
of computer engineers, so go out there and get those degrees, kids!
I started as tech support as well while I was still in college and was promoted within the company up to a development position. The company you work for offers some kind of support for something technical, so hopefully there's a career path towards working on whatever technical thing they're supporting is. This was the case for me. If not, maybe you can find another tech support position in a company that has such a career path.
...and, unfortunately, I have no useful advice to offer.
I worked tech support at a (then) Fortune 100 pc "assembler" and seller, including as a member of their corporate tech support group. After I took a job on the company's web team, I was laid off, went back to school full time and got a master's in comp sci.
I tried to find a job developing embedded systems, preferably in defense industry. I had / have a security clearance, decent grades, significant work experience... and finally after 18 months, one offer from a small company which I quickly took. Nine months later, they laid off 40% of their engineering department...
I never had anybody figuratively "turn up their nose" at my tech support experience. I think they just looked at it as non-specific work experience, i.e. "could hold a job for extended period of time without getting fired."
Since then, I've found very well paying work that is still in the IT industry, but really isn't what I had hoped to find.
Now I am in my early 40s and prospects of finding the kind of work I was interested in (and still am) are quickly fading.
I am trying to find satisfaction for my itch in personal projects.
I don't know what it is, but there must be something that I have been lacking or failed to show / demonstrate in interviews.
For what it is worth, I wish you well in your search.
If you are getting interviews then the problem is not with the resume, but with the interview.
You may want to check with the school you went to if they have anyone that could help you.
Failing that, you may be able to find resources online with key points to remember on an interview.
Also, many companies do tend to think that anyone that is in tech support for 2 years is because they could not do better, so you may want to look for a small company to work for while you can add some other tittle to the resume.
Specially think of a small ISP, or one where they may let you do other projects in addition to tech support.
In general small companies will have you involved with much more than tech support, even if that is what you are hired for. Larger companies tend to be more specialized so if you get hired for position X, it is little harder to move.
Any small company will, but there may not be as much technology beyond support for you to do. With an ISP there is a higher chance of you getting non tech support tasks.. even on the smallest of ISPs.
I can't find a job because I have no experience. That is pretty bad when you first leave college, but after several years companies feel you're unemployable because no one hired you. My only hope for making any income is to create my own profitable software projects.
God spoke to me.
If I had to guess, I would say that:
1) You smoke. People who work in tech support smoke.
2) Do you drink and / or drug? My experience with TS folks is that they tend to have a higher rate of both than the norm. Do you happen to fit any stereotypes of either of these? I have long hair for example - people assume I'm a pot smoking hippie.
3) You probably spoke negatively of your current employer. This is because TS sucks. However, this is a huge warning sign for employers.
4) You probably think you are above your current job, and it comes out in the interview process. People don't like people who are like this.
If I am totally off the mark, my apologies. If even one of these sound like you, then you may want to think about what you can do about it.
PS> Being a smoker isn't ever going to be the stated reason you didn't get a job. I don't think it can be, officially. Still, it's the same as showing up wearing too much cologne - people take their sense of smell seriously. Smokers generally don't smell good (too much smoke, overcompensating mint, etc) and it does hurt their odds of success. It's not something I would consider in an interview but I've watched it happen to smart people who should have been moving ahead.
This problem is not about technical qualifications. In fact, you see this sort of thing in food service, sports, journalism (real journalism, not blogs), photography, building construction... you name it.
You are pretty much screwed. You've been had cheap and people's perceptions are so, so hard to change.
Prospective employers only want you for what you have done and aren't interested in anything else.
I recommend that you omit your employment history from your job applications and resumes. Explain that your parent's financed your education and provided your food and housing. You never had to work.
We're not talking about too much time, here.
Work on becoming a well-rounded person. If you enjoy many things in life, you will have a greater likelyhood of having something in common with the interviewer. If you don't already, I suggest working out. Sadly, many techies fall into one of two categories: ultra-thin (i.e. no muscle) or pudgey. Make it a goal to run a 5K or some other fitness goal. I find it does make for good small talk. And someone might think: Hey, this guy is a goal-setter. Join a toastmaster's group or other organization that can help with speaking skills. Spend less time on Slashdot. Kiss some girls :-)
I had this particular problem at the place that I work when I was a manager, but in reverse.
I'd love to have been able to get qualified staff to answer user problems and questions but, because of the stigma attached to working at a support desk, we had tremendous difficulty. We've worked hard at promoting people from the helpdesk to higher positions - with some success - but weren't able to get really qualified staff because even moderately qualified people looked upon helpdesk as a dead end and wouldn't even talk to us when we mentioned it.
Some of my best tier two and tier three employees came from the helpdesk. They weren't the most technical staff, at least in the beginning, but they sure knew what the users do and how system downtime affected them. They often assisted the application developers in problem solving - when I could get the developers to talk to them - because frequently the developers often had little clue as to how their applications worked from the user point of view.
Pretend that you've been in prison for 2 years. That's far less embarrassing.
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
Look for a tech support job that is business-oriented with a company that is the originator of the software that is being supported. The software should have its own API. Learn the ins and out of that API. Wow the customers who need help with the API.
My advice is entirely based on personal experience. It happened to work for me and others in tech support. Some TS in the group learned the application and nothing else. Others, like me, learned both languages of the API at that time (back in the 90's - Visual Basic and C).
On the other hand, some people in my old tech support group, even those that were competent programmers, moved into other areas of the software business - QA, Sales Engineer, Training, Product Management
If you're not getting the responses for software dev jobs, then broaden your horizons.
There are two solutions:
1. Leave the helpdesk job off your resume. If they ask why the gap, make something up.
2. So you've been working two years in helpdesk without being offered a promotion? Either the company's promotion process is broken or you are. Where I work, everybody starts out at helpdesk, no matter what position they are applying for. Even if it's just for a week or two, you start out answering phones and move up from there. Some people do, some don't, some actually like helpdesk.
They're probably just telling you the line about work experience to be nice. Do you have any pertinent work experience besides your degree? Are you passing their technical questions? I started out doing tech support and it has always been seen as something employers WANT. They want to know that you're going to be willing to jump in and fix your bugs. They want to know that you understand the steps to take when troubleshooting a problem.
Do you have any outside projects? Have you ever written anything that wasn't required for class?
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs.
I've experienced a similar stigma working with Big Iron: "Oh, you're a mainframe programmer? Well, we don't do much of that anymore, most of our stuff is object-oriented..." Nevermind the fact that I've been doing C++ for more than a decade. I experienced a similar stigma when I got into embedded development. My degree says computer science, not IBM mainframes.
Some people just can't wrap their head around the fact that you aren't tech support. Personally, I would not put anything on my resume that wasn't career related. The fact that you have tech support on your resume probably makes them think that you think it has something to do with the position offered. They don't need to know you worked as a tech support - sure, you might have to put it on the application, but it should stay off the resume.
The next time it happens, you might want to end the conversation like this:
Them: Well, we're interested in hiring an engineer... Not so much tech support...
You: Have you ever worked in fast food? I thought so! I'm not interested in working for a burger flipper, either...
Believe it or not, I've said worse to an interviewer...
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
After several years as a developer, I found a job in tech support. Now, years later, I still love it. This is not your typical call center stuff: my customers are engineers. I am respected, the pay is good, the customers are fun, and the challenges change frequently. Many tech support engineers use their position to get their foot in the door and skill up and move on to development, but I'm pretty happy in support.
I worked in first line support for 3 years and landed a decent admin job when I found the company I did support for just simply was not interested in promoting me. It wasn't lack of skill or experience, but rather politics, but that's another story for another time. I simply did what I could to prove my worth to the interviewers and they hired me. Guess what? I have no education past high school except certifications. If the employer wasn't planning to hire you based on your experience in tech support, he/she wouldn't have brought you in for an interview. What happens is you fail to prove to the interviewer that you are valuable.
I had similar issues, for more years. I can tell you what I did. I got on in the support department of a company that I could tell actually had more going on in the same headquarters than just a call center, and eventually applied successfully into another department after working there a year or so. Good luck.
I worked for Packard Bell for almost 5 years (the time I spend in college) doing tech support. I noticed that having Packard Bell on my resume got me interviews with people who had also worked there in the past, but no job offers.
Eventually I just left Packard Bell off my resume and pretend I never worked there, then I started getting offers.
I would just say that the last 2 years of employment was just to keep you afloat and none of it was relevant so you left it off your resume. Seems ok to me.
Get a copy of 'Great answers to tough interview questions.' I always read that before going into an interview and I swear by it. It'll give you examples of how you can take aspects of your job and put a certain spin on it to bring out the qualities they're looking for. Example: I once impressed an interview panel to hire me for the job of UNIX admin (even though I had zero sysadmin experience and precious little UNIX experience beyond typing a command to start AutoCAD) on the grounds that when I was at a loose end at work I would go through the Help menu and tutorials and learn a bit of Visual Basic Programming, which I was then able to use in work to save the company a quantifiable amount of money. If I hadn't read the book I probably would never have thought of mentioning something that ultimately got me the job because I was able to convince them that I would be able to pick up the skills with a little bit of training.
And as someone says above, have some qualities in your extra-curricular activities that you can sell as another reason to hire you. You could do a lot worse than read The Game by Neil Strauss. It's not just about picking up chicks, it's also about adding value to yourself and making you a person worth dating and then being able to demonstrate the high value person you are - a useful skill that can be adapted for the job interview.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
If he hadn't published all of those Dogbert Technical Support cartoons that gave tech. supp. an approval rating that makes Congress look great, you'd be hired immediately.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Say that you did support for 3 months and spent the other 21 months "running your own business". Then you can put whatever you want in there. Buy a spare machine with lots of RAM (so cheap these days), install vmware server or esxi (free), and mess around with operating systems, firewalls, databases, etc etc...then you can find a job as a junior grad.
this isn't the first time ive herd of this, im actualy a junior and i was thinking about joining the help desk at where i work now... but maybe thats not such a good idea. does anyone have any suggestions for what i should do for a starting job while im in school (most of my schooling is online so i dont have to worry about conflicting schedules)
I found myself in a similar situation a while back. I had a degree in Computer Science, but had spent a few years as a PC/Network Administrator after leaving college. I wanted to get into software development, but I knew that any kind of software job I could get at the time wasn't going to be anything that I was interested in.
My solution was to go back to school for my Master's degree. The theory was that when I was done my software skills would be fresher, and the more advanced coursework would point me towards more interesting projects. Thankfully, it worked pretty well. I got hired on part-time before I graduated by an alum who had been surfing grad students' pages looking for new hires, switched to full time after graduation, and I've been doing professional software development ever since.
So maybe some formal education, even if you already know the stuff, could be a good investment for you.
LIE!!!!
I have seen tons of complete jackasses get by with lies on their resumes. A good friend of mine had to work for just such a jackass for nearly two years before the employer finally accepted the fact that this guy was a complete moron and had simply lied on his resume about his abilities, expertise, knowledge and experience.
I won't speculate on whether or not you have actual skill or not, but I see people lie so often and get really good jobs as a result that I simply have to recommend lying as a means to get past your dilemma.
They don't care what you've done, they want to know what you can do for them. Clearly, you have no idea what they do nor what they could possibly need.
Help desk is a great place to network with other IT people. I started in a call center with a Poly Sci degree. I was second tier in six months and third in a year. Off hours I chased down the network, QA, application, server people that I asked to solve problems and followed them around. When I escalated tickets to them I added enough information about the problem to fix it, and even started guessing what I thought the solution might be. Saved them time and effort even when I had the wrong solution. When an application group had an opening, they asked me to apply. Long story not so long, I'm now a high paid consultant.
- you'll have more responsibilities...
- work long and late hours...
- get paid less than you expected ('cause you're - gonna get a position that will somehow won't qualify for overtime)...
- spend sleepless nights worrying about some system or code that's been kicking you ass...
and you'll wistfully remember those carefree days shortly after graduation when you had a carefree job that you could leave at the office. all joking aside, you'll find another job with a better opportunity for advancement and better pay. what are you, 22-24? give it another year or two before you panick... you have a scant amount of experience, and in these economically tough times, it's likely that even though an employer says "recent graduates" they have a really high expectation that can only be filled by someone with more experience.
get to know people within the field/market you want to work in... show the person you want to work for that you have a pair of stones and you have the talent to back it up! go to trade shows and press the flesh, email prospective employers and ask if they have an opportunity for you, canvas your friends and family, church, coffeehouse, etc.
did you every take a job hunting/resume writing/interviewing class in college? they used to have these life lesson classes in high school, and i'm sure they have them in colleges as well... IMHO you might need coaching in life skills:
- learn to start and hold conversations with strangers
- learn to speak without using "umms", "aahs" and "you knows"
- learn to read body language
- learn how to take an interview
and quit complaining on slashdot about your career shortcomings, man up and figure it out!
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
With the economy about to implode, the fact is that nobody wants to hire anyone, and there are loads of people out there with better degrees and training wanting that job - any job...
You need to go back to school and get a Masters. Otherwise, you'll remain the low man on the totem pole and never be able to compete with the offshore workers and the DIYers who have certificates and so on but no college(which they also would likely hire over you). Take myself - I ran my own consulting firm for a decade and finally gave up as I could make the same money in a cubicle. The industry is flooded with ex-IT guys right now like me and we'll take your job in a heartbeat.
Get your ass out to the local lug meeting. Or something similar.
If there isn't something similar, make something. At one time I put together a small group of programmers that got together to discuss "The Pragmatic Programmer". I met some interesting people and learned a lot. I wasn't looking for work but found out about a couple of job openings anyway.
If you get to know people, they can tell you about jobs where they work, and provide an "in" that can make all the difference in your job hunt.
To be fair, though, why should it matter?
1. Most important of all, you can give the guy a test, you know? _If_ he spews the usual stuff that spells "idiot monkey who couldn't even understand that list right" -- like that rebooting solves most problems, and activating FSAA is a fix for graphics problems (hey, rendering glitches are called artefacts too, and FSAA solves rendering artefacts. Genuine piece of "advice" I've heard.) -- then, by all means, don't hire him. But _if_ he happens to know his stuff, why does it matter what job he had before?
Especially because...
2. In that race to scrape the bottom of the proverbial barrel to save costs, since at least the 90's I've seen less qualified people in all sorts of IT and programming jobs. Some places will not only hire a summmarily retrained burger flipper if he asks for less money, they'll _prefer_ one.
So, you know, wtf? They'd hire someone who worked at McDonalds and lied about having taken a "Java for dummies" course, but they won't even listen to someone who's worked in tech suppport? Something seems amiss there.
3. Don't get me wrong. Yes, probably 90% of the L1 tech support guys are just the cheapest monkeys who can use a phone and read a list. Badly. I'm not saying all are smart and competent, or anything equally silly. But I'm saying there is a variation in competence in any job, ya know? The trouble is the other 10% who just happened to need a job and nothing else was available. E.g., if said person was still in college, I don't see that awfully many other jobs who overlap well with that. You're not really going to take a game dev job and pull 80 hour weeks, for example, when you _also_ have to learn at the same time.
Heck, even as job descriptions go, it varies substantially between companies. You can't paint them all with the same brush. E.g., as ISP tech support goes, I've seen mine go recently from abysmal to guys who can actually solve simple problems without going through that canned list. I know, it's the first sign of the Apocalypse ;)
Even getting a promotion isn't necessarily a given, if all you have is two years. A _lot_ of support and generally IT jobs have been offshored in the last years, so in some places you'd be just happy to keep your job for two years. Because everything above you is also getting reduced faster than normal attrition. Plus, there's just plain old statistical flukes. I've worked (as a programmer) for a small company where the tech support guys just had no path to advance any higher, for example. The only job above L1 support were us the programmers, and as statistical flukes happen with small numbers of people, past a point no more programmers were hired, no more managers were needed either to promote some, and nobody quit for some 3 years at a point.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Everybody has a degree nowadays and a degree means nothing compared to experience. Instead of racking up student loans, you could have been applying yourself to actual work experience.
Go for internships and specialized training in whatever you plan on doing for the rest of your life.
A degree in computer engineering is nice, but you'll find that you still have to start from the very bottom and work your way up. Computer degrees are obsolete before you finish your textbooks.
The ONLY difference between a high school grad and a college grad is that once they enter the workforce, the college graduate still has to pay back loans for another 20 - 30 years.
Same thing with certifications - most employers will say they are a requirement on the job posting, but unless you can show solid real world experience, you are out of luck.
You said it was a job you held while getting your degree. Most employers wont think anything wrong of a student who went to university and DID NOT hold a job during that time.
Just don't list it.
If you think that is what is really holding you back, then don't list that as a previous position. Employers don't care if you held a job outside of your degree in regard to employment. I don't hire recent college grads because they list their summer supermarket jobs - I hire them because they are cheap, disposable, and 30% of them will actually both know what they are doing, and show a willing-ness to kick a hole in the sky. I expect to lose about 1/2 of the ones we hire to other jobs, and then I expect to fire at least 30% of the ones who don't leave by themselves. The ones that do work, get promotions and better pay, instead of the door.
SO .. if you honestly believe that having tech support on your resume is whats holding you back - 30 seconds in your word processing program should get you the keys to a new job.
If that doesn't work .. try telling your prospective employers these three things :
1) If I don't know what you need me to know, by the end of the day I will learn it.
2) If my project isn't done by the end of my workday, then my workday doesn't end.
3) I want this job, and am willing to work my ass off to get it.
*THOSE* in my opinion are the three main distinguishing features that makes me pick certain graduates over others. You certainly are not going to get hired on the basis of a two week lab program.
no offence.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Disclaimer-I am not a developer, I am a CAD designer.
My experience getting into my field took a little sidepath as well. I am currently working as a designer, but my last job was as a *cringe* firedog. But when I began shopping myself around after graduation I barely mentioned my time there. Honestly it had no bearing on the jobs I was applying for outside the 'yep this guy understands computers' checkbox. The only reason I stayed there as long as I did was that I was very choosy about the kind of company I wanted to work for. What got me the phone calls with offers rather than letters of condolences was my 7 years as a tour guide. Again the job had no bearring on my actual career, but I did develop excellent people skills. These translated remarkably well into the interview.
Frankly my point is unless you have resume experience as long as your arm, companies will only hire people they like. Present yourself in a polite, responsible manner. Treat the interviewer and their personal space with the upmost of respect. And above all do whatever you have to (short of tequila breath) to not be nervous. Confidence is key. Not arrogance, confidence. Practice your answers to the questions you know will be asked. If need be, be a little dismissive of your time in tech support. Explain that while you genuinely enjoyed the opportunity to help people, your ultimate goal was a position similar to the one you're applying for. And remember still to be yourself, turnover rates for employees that are completely different than their interview personas tend to be above the norm.
Okay I made that last part up, but it sure sounds true!
-=Bang Bang=-
Don't list the tech support job on the resume. If some one asked you what you did talk about your own projects.
For those of us who have both sysadmin and systems programmer things on our resumé, we often face an analogous problem - we sometimes have problems being hired as a sysadmin because we get classified as a programmer, and sometimes have problems being hired as a programmer because we get classified as a sysadmin. Maybe it's like how actors can easily be typecast...
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
I had that problem about 3 years ago. Graduated, couldn't find a job, got a job in an unrelated field, then hung on to it for 4 years. I ended up getting into my "true calling" by starting up a skunkworks project in that 4-year-doldrum job. I completed that project on my last day there. It was about a 3 month project, and I was hired away within that time period.
That, and I "expanded" my resumé with the 4 years I spent in that unrelated job. They don't believe me? Prove that I didn't do it. I worked there. While I was there I did X, Y, and Z, which are all skills they're looking for on that resumé.
Everyone lies on paper. It's how you perform once they've taken a chance on you that really matters. But if you don't sell yourself well enough for them to take that chance, you'll keep looking.
Okay first, it depends on where you did tech support.
Yes, it's true there might be some discrimination, but it's not because you have a specific kind of experience... it's because you DON'T have another specific kind of experience. I think you misconstrued "We don't want you because you worked in support" with "We don't want you because you don't have experience in an area we are looking for."
The #1 most attractive thing on a resume is relevant job experience, even if it's 10 years ago. You have experience in tech/customer support. Almost anyone can get that. We want you to have experience in computer engineering!
You are screwed first and foremost by the job market. It's a buyers market, meaning the businesses hold all the cards when it comes to hiring. It's hard for anyone to find a job. Those with relevant job experience get hired first. That's always been the case.
Make sure you list out anything that stands out that makes you a go to guy, or any unusual software packages you used to do your job. The perception that, for example, Dell is just a place that will take anyone as a support rep, is because it is! There are plenty of chop shops out there. At the same time, places that I work, actually invest in their people and try to create people who actually know what they are doing. You have to make yourself stand out, and places like gateway support don't help you stand out. My company is a B2B support shop, so the standards are much higher (businesses pay a premium for knowledgeable support). I stand out because of all the software packages I need to know and all the levels I've been thru. I work in support, but my resume looks good because I look like someone who can be counted on, can learn new things, and be a go to when the going gets rough (and all those other cliches HR likes to use).
If you have nothing you can use from this job, you can remove it from your resume, but I doubt it will help or hurt you. I predict you are one of the many americans who will be underemployed until the US economy recovers because no one is hiring anywhere except at the bankruptcy attorney's office.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
It's probably about interview technique and CV, moreover your general approach to the jobs market.
Operational/tech support can provide an excellent grounding if you want to move in to something a little more interesting, but it is what you make it.
If you've been there two years having done a CS degree, you're probably not moving quickly enough. Average lifetime of a graduate in tech support is about 18 months before climbing the slippery slope.
Get your ITIL foundation certificate (or similar), get on a project management foundation course and brush up on your practical networking skills (I don't mean of the brown-nose sort here). Do a part-time higher degree.
Than keep applying for all the graded jobs in the areas that seem interesting to you. And set yourself realistic expectations about how many times you're going to get knocked back.
You worked during school - yipee!
Most comp-sci graduates I interview don't put 'Burger King' on their resumes.
"Help! This interviewee just reverse-pick pocketed me! I have all this extra money!"
that nobody is hiring and that we're in the middle of a recession, if not a depression. But it can't be, because John McCain said, "the fundamentals of the economy are strong!"
I know from firsthand experience that the perceived problem is that you did indeed settle with the help desk job. You may have had a world of reasons to do so, but that's not the employers problem. By your last year of school (at the latest) you should have been aggressively seeking out internship and externship opportunities in the field you wanted to work in. Having failed to do so, you still lack that experience and will have to be just as aggressive now that you have your degree. It will probably mean taking a position that is beneath your degreed self and you may encounter resistance now that you're degreed self is over-qualified but it beats the help desk.
We willna be fooled again!
Try this, take the tech support info off your resumé. (You are applying to jobs that require resumés not just applications, right?)
Pretend you never had the job and had some menial IT job instead. Say your projects were the fruit of that job, and don't present the projects, but talk about them as accomplishments (since most companyies would retain the rights to them had you actually been paid to create them you can't show the code to a perspective employer).
If they're not projects that a business could conceivably paid you to create, then start a new one project that could be.
If they still won't hire you, it's not the "tech support stigma" it's you.
The reason I suggest this is that I have a hard time believing that some tech support stigma is the thing preventing you from getting a job. I got a job after college with zero professional experience in programming. I had a recommendation from one of my professors on my side, but no experience to speak of.
If you get the first interview your resume can't be that bad, so you've got to be flunking the first interview somehow, my guess is it's not the tech support job, but you can try the above and find out.
It's a bit of a lie to omit the tech support work, but it's not really relevant anyway, so omitting it might be more like cutting out extraneous information. Or if you're not comfortable with that, reduce that job to a footnote in your resume to minimize it's impact. Up until recently I had to pad my resume with bullshit job information like computer aided drafting operation and working in a shoe store. There was a different section on my resumé for "relevant experience" where all the stuff that career employers would care about. I kept it on there because it proved I could at least show up and hold down a job long term, but that was the only value it added. I recommend a similar format for you.
Your tech support background is not a qualification, it's just proof that you'll show up and stick around, nothing more.
And if they're "clearly looking for recent graduates" do you not realize, that after two years, you're not one?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I really don't think the tech support is what's holding you back, it's that you haven't done computer engineering academically or professionally for two years, or you're just flunking the interview. Personal projects mean little unless they're marketable or incredibly sophisticated pieces of work.
Maybe you could show them some sample code? Not to impress them with what your code can do - because you rarely will - but impress them with the quality of your actual source code. Is it readable? Is easily understood? Is it maintainable? Is there documentation? Is it well commented? Does it have a full set of unit tests?
Kinda all over the map here, but I hope something helps!
Question everything
God I have never seen such stupid horrible advice.
Ignore 95% of these responses.
The worst thing you can do is to go around thinking there is something wrong with you.
Just keep at it and you'll find the job you want.
If your resume is getting you in the door for an interview but then you are being told your tech support is a hurdle then you have an interview problem not a tech support is in my resume problem.
Think about it. You are getting interviews off a resume that is tech support heavy. So REGARDLESS of that background you are getting in. Then magically it becomes an issue.
Google yourself.
Google your email address, too.
Facebook, MySpace? Got a nifty pic of your drunken self up somewhere?
Your potential employer *will* Google you, and Yahoo you, and Dogpile you, and search for you on all the alumni sites, plus Facebook, MySpace and any other site that lets you make a profile. I don't care if you use an AOL email address, but if you've got an AOL profile that's unflattering, I'll find it and judge you based on it.
No matter how well an application is *written*? Whoa, talk about how well your resume or CV is written. When you talk about applications you'd better be talking about things that compile, because the only other kinds of applications are the ones you fill out to get hired at places like McDonalds.
Also, I agree with all the above posts. 2 years in 1st line support screams bad things. Getting to interviews and then geting rejected for reasons that could've been discerned from your resume screams you're screwing up something in the interview. Fix that.
I have a degree in CS and did a Math PhD.
To get a job as a programmer, I had to bend my curriculum by highliting my programming projects instead of my math research activities.
Human resources people are shortsighted people that got an arts degree and are completely computer/science illiterate. Even IT people are science illiterate.
Just do programming free lance jobs for a while or help on some big open source project for 6 months and then focus your resume on that (hide the tech support) hehe
good luck!
It likely doesn't have anything to do with your tech support experience. Sorry. And I'm not trying to be insulting, just helpful.
Take a good deep critical look at yourself, your interviewing skills and your resume. Maybe your experience is sub-par. Most employers that I know won't care if you have other pluses:
* Enthusiasm.
* You've done your homework on the company and the position.
* A great resume.
A recruiters default answer is "no". It's much safer to have a few false-negatives than a false positive. Unless you make the hiring manager say "wow, that guy has it together and I must hire him", you're not getting the job. And the "your professional background isn't what we're looking for line" is often a good default line.
I recommend that you purchase and listen to the Manager Tools interviewing series http://www.manager-tools.com/category/interviewing-series/ (no I'm not associated with them, but I do listen to the podcasts weekly). It is worth every penny. At the very least, listen to the free "your resume stinks" podcast http://www.manager-tools.com/2005/10/your-resume-stinks/ .
There are lots of things you can do to improve your chances. Blaming it on your job as a tech-support monkey isn't going to help. And honestly: if the manager you interviewed with actually is not hiring you due to that specific job being on your resume, you really don't want to work for them anyway.
If you really think having tech support on your resume is unfairly holding you back, then take it off and try again. Really, what are they going to do? Not hire you? They're already doing that.
The economy *is* shit. So if the OP (I won't say "this guy" and be yet another person assuming that the OP is male) is willing to do "personal projects" and has passable c.s. skills, then why isn't he or she going to Freshmeat or other places and taking up bounties instead of repeatedly going back to places where they already know that they're not wanted?
Whats that old definition of insanity again? doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results?
I think that is is an important question. Around here many of us are talking a hell of a lot about some wonderful future built around FOSS and/or work done from bounty postings and other non-corporate approaches. Well that's all jim dandy in theory but I have yet to see a single programmer over the age of twenty-three that I've ever known actually turn their back on corporate work to actually try to make a living this way.
Me? I got out of IT completely years back and consider most of those who have stayed suckers unless they're making over $50 K a year and working 45 hours a week or less.
If you think your past job is eliminating you from consideration, then leave it off your resume. In most cases that's a pretty terrible thing to do (wink wink, more people do it than don't) -- and will usually disqualify you from employment if your employer finds out -- but in this case you're trying to get a job you have a degree for, that doesn't value your previous work experience, so that work experience is irrelevant. Assuming you're a normally-aged college student, your resume will basically be empty so there's no huge gap in your employment to explain.
Now if having that on your resume is necessary for some reason, then obviously there's something else going on here. Which is likely, given how many people with tech support backgrounds have no problem getting good jobs.
Working tech support = good thing. Not having the sense to quit earlier = sign of incompetence :-)
Seriously, you're competing against recent graduates who have had contract work or internships with actual programming experience. I would suggest taking one of those, so an employer doesn't have to take as high a financial risk in hiring you. Bid low enough and eventually someone will bite.
Also, no offense because I've never met you, but be aware that companies will often reject someone for a different reason than the one they give, in order to keep from hurting your feelings or keep from getting themselves into legal trouble. A person who would reject you for a thin resume is going to reject you after reading your resume, and not waste time calling you in for an interview. You might want to get some professional help from a recruiter on your interview skills.
This space intentionally left blank.
on what you were doing and demonstrate your troubleshooting skills
I don't how it is in the US, but here in Europe no law will force you to list every single jobs that you have worked on. In fact nobody expects you to. Generally you don't give out an exhaustive résumé, instead you put focus on highlight a couple of entries that you think relevant to the job you're applying for.
So a different approach would be to just remove the Tech Support from the begin of the résumé. Focus more on the academic achievement (Titles, Awards, Publications, etc.). Also on all the various opensource/personal project that you have developed or contributed (specially the ones now in production stage), trying to highlight the diversity of tools that you master.
Of course at some point of the interview the question will come what you have been doing all this time between graduation and the present.
The best is to only mention the job then and explain that you haven't considered your current job worthy of getting mentioned on a CV for that peculiar application (so they understand that you *do* indeed work, you just have something better and more interesting to pitch about you).
Maybe mention then too, that people tend to misrepresent what your job consist and tend to focus on it instead of your actual skill, thus you choose to not mention it in the curriculum. You can subsequently jump on the topic on what you think you've done actually cool that people would misrepresent : mention the tech understanding the out-of-the-box hacking/fixing, etc. so the employer gets the point that you were not a "follow the script" drool-drone.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
First, I would work extremely hard to progress in my current position. I'm not sure why everybody's assuming you're level one tech support. I would assume if you're posting here that you're level two or level three. Regardless of what level you're at, you want to move up to the highest level. Study, get whatever certifications you can easily get, and move yourself forward in your current organization.
Next, try to move out of tech support at your current job and get a job with the same employer in the server or network department. Stay there for six months or so before applying for new jobs at new employers. If you jump around too quick they'll assume you're going to leave them quickly too and not give you the time of day.
If you absolutely cannot move past your current level at your current employer, or cannot take the time to move to a different department at the current employer, then do some creative editing of your resume. Use a headhunter or three - they will often edit your resume for you. You don't want to list tech support. Bill yourself as a level 2 NOC engineer, or something. Anything but tech support. List specific products and classes of components that you support - ie enterprise MPLS network troubleshooting, or wireless component deployment and design, etc.
Definitely use a headhunter - they'll help you stress the things that you need to stress, and gloss over the rest.
"I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems . . ."
By "similar problems," I take it you mean, at least in part, pointless interviews conducted by H.R. weenies who don't know a USB port from a glass transistor?
They're robotic wind-ups, much the same as the typical third-world first-level "support" tech (you know--start with "A"--> If answer is "X" go to "B" else go to "C" unless "Y" is present). Same brain cells, different script.
You're after the hiring manager, not some dweeb with a B-school degree, so keep your eye on the ball. The trick is to get by the gatekeeper, so you sometimes gotta . . . lie a little.
You may find it's easier to leave the tech support stuff off the resume and just lean on the recent-grad-Comp Sci thing. You're also up against a shelf life problem in that if it takes too long to connect, you're no longer "recent." Now you know how people end up in grad school and even PhD's by the age of 27.
Never underestimate the value of a solid list of personal references. Any good or cool projects you did for anyone are worth mentioning.
The help-desk thing was just to pay the light bill, right? Forty years ago, some of us drove trucks or dug ditches or went military long enough to soak up whatever they were passing out. The military experience on my resume in the 1970s was there solely to show where I went to school, and fell off after 10 years. A college degree is good on a resume forever.
You busted your hump and did it the hard way. Why dilute that effort by mentioning what you did to pay the rent? Just a thought.
It's not going to make you feel any better, but things are a lot tougher now than in my day (1960s-1990s mini/micro computers). Sure, troubleshooting discreet circuits from a schematic and looking at an O'scope and little blinking lights was an entry level skill, but electronics isn't exactly a black art. The math is mostly high-school, and anything else you need to know you could dig out of a book. The coding was assembler, and you didn't have to deal with any really huge bunches of code.
About all I can do is wish you luck--It's a shame to see someone work so hard to get the paper only to be blown off by interviewers who obviously don't get it.
For the record, I did phone support for Dell for two years. First job out of the Army.
I think that it is highly probable that you don't interview well. An interviewer isn't going to say, "Get a haircut, and don't call me 'dude'." Or, "I'd hire you, but every time I ask you a question you correct or lecture me." He's going to say something about your qualifications. "Your skills just aren't a good fit."
The sad fact is that there are a lot of stupid, lazy, unqualified, and untalented people out there who interview very well. You're competing with them and smart, hard working, qualified, and talented people who also interview well. You need to put yourself among their ranks.
Maybe you could try some mock interviews with people you trust and will honestly criticize you. (Have them interview you for a job in their field, so you can't bullshit them.) You want to come off as smart, but not as a know-it-all. You need to come across as smart enough to subsume the geek long enough to get nicely dressed for the interview. Be yourself, but be your best self.
Finally, I don't know what the statistics are, but in my experience you are far more likely to get a job when you were referred by someone that the person making the hiring decision knows, likes, and trusts. You're also more likely to get frank feedback if you don't get an offer.
Good luck!
-Peter
PS: I didn't even interview for my current job. My previous boss told me I had the job in the first two minutes of the interview. I do have some idea what I'm talking about ;-)
I also have a degree in Computer Engineering with some support (while at university) background. Ironically enough 95% of the people I have worked with in the chip development industry over the past 12 years know NOTHING about tech support, computer maintenance, etc. Overlap between the two fields is almost a null set. There have been a few notable exceptions but this rule seems hard to bend. This may go the other way too as I have some excellent tech support (3rd level & higher sort of stuff) who couldn't wrap their minds around how hardware design works to save their skins.
$0.02
Volunteer for a nonprofit to fix up a donor database, wire their office, etc.
Join an OSS (almost too obvious to mention).
Do consulting/job shopping.
It doesn't have to profitable initially. As long as you can point to some accomplishments and talk knowledgably about how you accomplished it.
The worst thing is to just wait around for the perfect job....
After 15 years experience as a field tech I re-wrote my resume to focus on client assignments, project management, and large network experience. If I wrote it as I worked it, I would be typing this from the same first-level tech hell you work in. No, scratch that. I wouldn't do that. I'd do something else.
An idea - get any sort of gig with a desperate non-profit or service agency doing all they need done. Stretch yourself, do anything for them. It will eat into your free time, but give you the precise experience employers will want to see; initiative, self-directed and self-motivated, glowing recommendation from your client(s). If necessary, lie slightly and make your day job part-time also.
You will, of course, learn to develop working relationships with your client and their staff, to meet their real needs and not focus on break/fix (unless that's all they need, which means you need another client), and just volunteer it. The money you want is not at this site, it's at the place your resume gets read.
And if you get the job, don't turn your back on that poor little outfit that you used to buff your resume. They will be your proving round, practice field, test case. You get to try cool stuff with less pressure and less exposure, they get very cool stuff they could not afford. This looks good on your resume from a community involvement area more than a daring admin viewpoint.
And find a job group, whatever they call them where you are. Not only do they network, and you meet people who know people who want you, but you get to polish your resume, your elevator speech, your interviewing skills.
I got my most recent job in an interview by pretty much asking what they needed and pointing to the skills I had that gave me the ability to fit in, do the job, and keep showing up. And it's not tech support I'm doing. I went into something not quite what I was trained for, but this is a position you can't get training for - you get it when you come on board.
Good luck. Don't worry, be focused!
If you weren't being hired then what DID you do? Well? If you need experience then you need experience not money. Go work on some open source project, volunteer for some non-profit, find some somewhat related company (then try to wiggle yourself into the proper department/make connections), go to local software events to make connections, meet people who may work in the field, work on your own projects to improve your skills and so on. Of course you should have been doing all of this in college or simply been getting internships so it's really your fault for getting out of college without experience. Remember that in life it matter who you know, what people think you know and what you actually know in that order. Don't obsess about the second of those when it's the first that you really should be thinking about.
Don't complain about not being able to find a job if you're doing little more than sitting on your ass all day.
I'd like to also say I agree with the other reply in that if you have no other options then just "stretch the truth." However if you do that then make bloody sure you actually have the skills to back up your claims or you'll just be digging yourself an even bigger hole.
Your experience in tech support is being a negative asset? Don't tell them about it. Remove it from your resume. If that leaves your resume blank, well, then you're no worse off than a recent graduate.
If they ask what you've been doing for two years, tell them that you took the time off to work on personal projects (and have something substantial to show them for it), or to travel (expect to be able to say where and actually have been there), or to take care of an elderly family member. Make something plausible up, make it sound honest, and stress that you understand that it's a little unusual but you'd just like to be treated like any other recent graduate please. An employer is not going to be inclined to doubt someone who is telling them "I have no experience."
It's not much of a movie, but if you want to see the stereotypical call center worker check this youtube link for the call center scene from the movie "The Big Nothing".
That scene is an absolute riot to anyone who ever worked frontline techsupport.
Now think about the people you see, & what they do in that job- THAT is what you are telling the new employer you have been doing the last 2 years.
I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems and if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence.
Yes. I had to rely on who I knew and sell up the sysadmin internship I held in college to get hired as a sysadmin. No one wanted a "windows desktop support" guy running their linux servers, despite how heavily automated & scripted (using a dos version of bash of all things) the environment was at the windows desktop job.
Put your employment history lower on your resume; make it seem like the odd-job you think of it as, and tout your real skills - your real passion.
I worked in Tech Support and landed a nice job at Microsoft...
As someone who does interviews now, I look for people with experience from the USER point of view. If your potential employer does not see this benefit, then maybe change your resume to says something more along the lines of "consumer advocate" instead of "tech support", and use the words "engineer" and "technical" in some way to qualify your job in support (but not "support engineer")...
More something like "technical engineer" or "technical analyst". Morph it to concentrate on your ability to analyze technical problems, and create solutions.
believe it or not it doesn't hurt to use some creativity on your part, and it doesn't hurt to put that positive spin on things...
--E--
Get as much practice and peer review as you can. Check the college that you graduated from, as they most likely have a career center open for alums. Set up mock interviews, have as many people as you can get through your resume.
I just graduated with a degree in Computer Engineering with experience in a similar job (not call centers, but 'front line' tech support... house calls, anyone?), and there were companies calling ME to ask for an interview. So there is hope - just remember that you have to work at your resume and interview skills as if it was your job. And then remember that getting the job is much easier then holding it...
That would be the standard Support Tech for "I feel threatened by you and your technology."
I see some ways out of your situation:
1) Get yourself noticed and promoted within your own company. I got hired about five years back doing bullshit scripting work when I wanted to do real coding. I broke out an IDE and wrote a program which automated my own job. This got me promoted and gave me the springboard to get a new, better job outside the company.
2) If you can't get promoted (and, Devil's Advocate here, let's say you really do just work for a douche of a company and so #1 above wouldn't work) then just keep applying everywhere you can. You're in a bad spot but at some point some company will take a chance on you. You'll probably be doing something lame like scripting or COBOL but at least it won't be tech support.
3) Consider moving - I hate to say it but since you're not saying where you are, the answer might be to start applying at companies in other cities, preferrably big ones. If you live in Dallas or Chicago you'll have plenty of chances to get on board somewhere. If you're in Oconomowoc, WI you might have the best paying gig in town already.
4) Start a side consulting business - there's plenty of people out there who will hire someone for an affordable rate. If you're potentially good at what you want to find a job doing, set up a DBA (Doing Business As) for yourself, like Joe Blow Consulting, then get side contract gigs. Don't charge much at first. Heck, find someone like a local church and do their website for free, then use that on your resume to get a better gig, like doing a website for a locally run restaraunt. At some point this will be a great thing to put on your resume and get a leg up in the hiring process.
Schnapple
Offence intended, but maybe you're just an asshole. The fact that you got the first interview means that the prospective employers thought you had the skills they required. Generally they don't interview people just for the heck of it. I'm thinking that once you got to the interview they found out you were a knob and we just trying to give a professional excuse because they didn't like you.
I worked in tech support as my first job for 3 years. I got out of it with one interview. I then go made redundant (due to chapter 11) and needed a job quick so took a phone support role for a few months. Got out of that, again, with one interview. And I don't even have a degree in anything. Now I'm IT Manager/lead developer for a mid-size accounting firm.
I think personality will get you a long way in an interview and if you get that far, you obviously have the skills required to do the job. Also, looking at how you're handling in by blaming everyone except yourself for your failures, I have no doubt that my opinion that you are just a dickwad is somewhat accurate.
Have a nice day.
I did some free lance tech support for a while and had this guy call me and tell ME what the problem must be why his computer won't turn on.
He kept saying he thought the hard drive was fried (mind you he'd not had the computer out of the box 6 hours yet), then it was a bad monitor (huh?), then he was sure there must have been a virus loaded on his machine when it was made.
You know where this is going right?
So, I tell him when I get to his house that it's a $75 charge for the first hour and then $50 per hour thereafter, $75 in advance and that if it took me 5 minutes to figure it out, there was no rebates.
So I look at this mess of wires, keyboard on top of the monitor, mouse dangling by it's cord and he's still trying to tell me what is wrong with it. I checked and yep it was plugged into his surge protector and the surge protector was plugged into the wall.
He just never flipped the switch on his surge protector. I swear he cursed me up one side, down the other and then threatened to sue me for fraud if I didn't give him back his money.
--
Oh well, Bad Karma and all . . .
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Speaking as someone who made the progression from tech support to development, the key thing is probably to take any opportunity you have to get some bits of commercial development experience in your current role, and then make sure you highlight that.
This can be hard in a larger company, but in a small team you can show the willingness to take on extra responsibilities - working on the website back-end, assisting customers with scripting or other tasks that requires an ability to understand code, writing little Python/Perl/whatever scripts to simplify or speed up a process... whatever it takes.
In 18 months I gained enough experience to at least get my foot in the door to interview for another company.
However, I would also suggest that you need to make sure that your CV does its job. Now that job is not to identify your skills as accurately as possible. Its job is to highlight the skills, experience and qualifications that make you of interest for the kind of role you're after. It is your first tool for selling yourself, and sometimes you need to think about your experience from the perspective of a prospective employer. Can you demonstrate good organisational skills? Good problem-solving skills? Initiative? Team leadership? Scripting and coding skills? etc.
Also, one good reason for working on a pet website project is to have something that you can demonstrate to a potential recruiter, including showing them the source code if you wish. However, this will only be of benefit if it really does look good.
Finally, if there's a particular area of technology you want to focus on (.NET, Java, etc) then another option is to get professional certification from Microsoft, Sun, etc. This shows initiative, interest in ongoing skill development, and knowledge of relevant technologies, all of which is good. Obviously there's some cost involved in that, but it's something that you'd aim to get back in improved salary prospects.
The fundamental problem is not your background or your lack of abilities; it's the fact that you aren't easily pigeonholed into a certain category.
Hiring is hard work. HR people are confronted with myriad options, and they have no idea who is going to be good or not. So they start making up purity laws, like Kosher, for applicants. They are based on virtually nothing, and lead to injustice and perplexing stupidity, but if they follow them they get pretty good people, and so they're scared of ever looking beyond those magical rules, because as far as they know, those are the only things keeping them from accidentally hiring someone who poops in the coffee maker and wipes the Exchange server. So they cling ever tighter to their arbitrary little fucking rules, and people like you suffer.
See, the fundamental problem is that the fundamental problem isn't you. It's them. It's HR people. It's people whose entire fucking job is to sort pieces of paper into "interview" and "trash." Then they'll call the people in the "interview" pile in and ask them stupid questions that have little to do with the job, and which require skillful lying to answer "correctly." They will then use their keen secretarial insight into those people and into whatever the company does--isn't it something about megabits or something?--to recommend a small subset of those people to actually talk to someone who does the job at hand.
That person doesn't have any idea how to hire people either, so he applies his own magical tonics and incantations.
In the end, they get someone who does a Pretty Good Job, and who doesn't poop in the coffee maker.
But of course they get someone who's pretty good. Just about anyone with the minimal requirements of the job will do as well as anyone else. You won't even know how good or bad someone is until a year or so into their employment. They could basically hire anyone with a basic background in whatever and have the same success rate.
But, then again, I'm pretty bitter. I went through the same kind of thing, but my stigmatizing factor was 2 years teaching English in Japan. I wasn't interested in teaching very much, but I wanted the immersion experience so I could improve my Japanese. But after that, I found that it was a resume-killer. Every single interview started like this: "So why did you go to Japan for 2 years?" "Well, as you can see, my minor was Japanese, and I really wanted to spend some time improving it." "Okay... Well then, could you explain to me why, with an education background, you think you would be able to do this menial entry level data entry position that you've sunk to applying for?" "Well, maybe it has something to do with the fact that for five years before I went to Japan I was in IT, with increasing responsibility. Also, it might have something to do with the bachelor's degree I have with honors. It might also have something to do with the fact that I'm not a complete moron." "Well... We'll let you know. We don't really need any Japanese teachers."
(Cue a chorus of people screaming, "Well if that's the way you talk to interviewers, no wonder!" --I'm fantasizing here, folks!)
Ultimately, I just went back to school and became an English teacher, out of desperation. Since no one could look past that, I decided I'd let them pigeon hole me, so I could eat. I now teach English at a university in Japan. Pay is good; time off is great. Not as stable as I'd like, but at least I don't have to explain my resume anymore.
Finally, I'm assuming you're American? I have not observed this stigma at all in my British friends' lives. I've watched them change entire industries with ease, just by being smart. But it's a small sample, so I might be wrong about that.
A lot of people here are going to tell you it's your fault, that you're not doing something right. But that's because they have jobs already and think they deserved them. They didn't. Or, rather, didn't deserve them any more than the vast majority of applicants. The selection process is nigh random, and I think you're right that your tech support experience is not letting you past a filter...
I have no advice; only commiserations. Good luck to you.
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Your problem's the interview, hands down.
They blamed it on your "professional background" - they lied.
You have to realize what the employer process is:
1) Put out job listing.
2) Wait for resumes
3) Glance at each one 15-60 seconds, make a short-list. Phone these guys for interviews.
4) Spend another 1-5 minutes on each marking stars on areas you want to probe on.
5) Interview the candidates
Now it's decision time! There are 4 kinds of candidates (in ranking order):
a) Great resume, great work experience, great interview. This guy has the job, sorry.
b) Mediocre resume, great interview. This guy has the right attitude - he'll learn.
c) Mediocre interview, great resume. This guy has experience, but does he have the drive?
d) Mediocre interview, mediocre resume. This guy just doesn't shine - he probably doesnt even WANT the job.
You, my friend, are D. They say "you don't have the background", what they mean is "you don't have the background, and you didn't show us anything in your interview worth caring about.
Everyone here has given advice - hygene, communication skills, better personal projects, the right connections. These all help. So here's one more, and trust me this one will help you knock it out of the park.
You want the employer to want you. Equally true, the employer wants you to want to work for them. An employee who loves their company is loyal, hard-working, and gives the highest quality results.
How do you prove you want to work for the employer? Simple. They will ask you "why do you want to work for us?" You've heard it at every interview so far, haven't you?
So before the interview, research the company. Research their industry. Find problems common to their industry in terms of the field you want to work in. Now, when they ask "why do you want to work here" explain that you find the industry interesting. "For example, I find this particular problem interesting. I considered this solution, but was concerned about the performance costs, so I think this other solution may actually be ideal."
To answer your question, yes you need to actually think about the problem and try to come up with solutions. This shows drive, ambition, interest, intelligence - all the qualities employers truly desire. And above all, it shows you're interested in the company and their industry.
Hope this helped.
i think this is typical of HR types. words can't explain how much i despise them, this kid WANTS to work so he took a job "lower" than his qualifications. do you know how RARE that kind of work ethic is these days?
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You've been had cheap and people's perceptions are so, so hard to change.
I was working to graduate debt-free. I succeeded at that, except.... I wouldn't go to a school _I_ couldn't afford. I was in school much longer than four years. Never landed a paying internship because, frankly, there weren't enough hours in the day to work and do well in school. I got huge quantities of consistently bad professional advice from people where the Social Connections of Mom and Dad *were* their enormously successful careers and the Bank of Mom and Dad funded their time between jobs.
You are on the wrong end of a number of promises that never came true and probably won't ever. You've been had cheaply so you are screwed right now...
The way I did it when I got done being angry about all of my mistakes, I started working two jobs. One my career, the other dead-end retail. Between the two I made enough to quit the dead-end job 5 years later. The dirt-poor career job is used to develop skills. You'll find the worst of humanity and job conditions when you are paid cheaply. Professional contacts are few and far between. You'll have to fight for every penny in your paycheck and your precious job titles. At this time, don't fall in love. It won't be worth the conflict.
10 years later you'll be the stronger, much better employee than most of the softies who came up from the Bank of Mom and Dad who will supervise you. Which, coincidentally, keeps you trapped in your position because you are too valuable in your current position. Which, coincidentally allows you to do meet people, fall in love and have a wonderful life...
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
If you are a recent graduate, why even bother telling them you worked help desk at all? If they can't see on your resume you've been doing it the last 2 years of college they can't discriminate against you for it.
Also, take the approach that you want to be their friend. You want to go out for drinks at the end of the week. Sometimes employers just want to know you are a good person. Detailing all your knowledge and projects may potentially make you come off as a know-it-all. I'm sure there are plenty people here that have horror stories about the tech guy that thought he knew everything...
I have no degree or formal education, but I am getting tons of job offers for Sr. System Analyst due to my experience and self study (just got hired at a big Pharm. Co. in Indianapolis). Get experience any way you can, that is what they want. I have supported R&D engineers all my career and they are very demanding and it looks good on a resume.
but youll soon discover that sufficiently advanced freelancing is indistinguishable from a regular job.
go elance rentacoder scriptlance, whatever you can find. elance is slightly more decent.
Read radical news here
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've had a slightly similar experience. I had been working in web design and multimedia for five years with an MLM company. When we finally formalized our Help Desk group, I had already been shunted out of the the web design area through no fault of my own. (The president's son-in-law was head of Marketing and decided he could do web stuff, too).
I've worked Help Desk for about a year before I was outsourced. I listed it as creatively as I could with my other talents on my resume.
When I finally gave in and went to a temp agency, I was told that one of the local IT companies was needing Help Desk support. I never got the interview. I never understood why. After reading this, I had never thought of the possibility of a 'stigma of tech support'.
Not saying that that's what's happened. It could very well be that I had to spend two years working at a record store to make ends meet. Two years out of the field (as they would see it) could be just as much of a death sentence as tech support.
I worked at NCR doing special support for rollouts and telzon upgrades with Wal-Mart. After getting layed-off none of the other IT departments in the area wanted to hire me... because I had been nothing more than a glorified tech support specialist. Honestly I liked the job but NCR on my work history turned out to be a curse, even with certifications and letters of recommendation from my old boss.
Eventually, I ended up going to college and getting a BA in Communication. Now I'm gearing up to teach ESL abroad and will be making way better money than I ever would have in IT. I don't even put NCR on work history anymore, heck I rarely tell people about computer skills past being able to use office software and e-mail. It ends up being too much of a hassle.
So you've been working two years in helpdesk without being offered a promotion?
In these situations it is very often the case that if it is known the employee is working at some sort of degree, then it is understood they are the equivalent of good temporary help...
In other situations, there is *never* any intention of moving people off support. I've worked in other departments at large companies where this was explicitly the case.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Greetings All,
It is rare that I post to slashdot, rather lurking in the shadows, but as someone whom not only works in Tech Support, but also works in what is in no way a normal tech support, I felt the need to post.
I have the great fortune of working for Harris whom would turn your idea of a helpdesk on it's head. We have about 20 individuals whom serve as the first line support for the whole company, and let me tell you, they are all for the most part top notch. Our first level is what most companies use for second or third level support. Technically I am a Helpdesk Analyst, and much as you have run into, this poses a certain stereotype that can be very hard to shake given the bad press support techs give. Now if you look at my paycheck, my official title for the purpose of paygrade is "Technical Services II". I am not sure how it works in your company, but perhaps there is a better or slightly alternate title you can use on the resume that would sound better.
It is also not uncommon in some companies to get what might be considered a title promotion only. As in you do not get a pay increase, but a better title. While this might not mean much now, it might be a way you can better promote yourself to others. You may wish to inquire with your current employer if this might be available, or if your manager whom might be willing to back a better sounding title should someone inquire. It is not a lie if all parties agree to it.
Also, I had the great benefit that my interview, both by phone and in person were more of a technical question and answer session than anything else. My company cares alot more about what you know and can do, than what is on paper. Lets all be honest, there are many individuals out there who can in no way live up to the words spelled out on their resume.]
Mia Yuuki
as I cannot read your resume. I also don't have your references.
Sometimes to get a good IT job you need experience in that area, it is an IT Catch-22.
For example I worked on help desks and computer repair shops before I became a programmer. What helped me was getting a job in the college computer lab and since I was taking classes in programming, they had me do some programming projects for them.
Maybe what you need to do is some Guru work and some short term IT contracts. You also could join an open source programming project and start out documenting code and work your way to a programmer. But being a free lancer will get your foot in the door of a company quicker than an OSS project.
If you have help desk skills you can easily turn it into computer repair and training skills. Do consulting with friends and family for a small fee and put on your resume a DBA (Doing Business As) a company name that you will found later. Make sure you get some good references from those jobs.
Don't lie on your resume, they will spot that and disqualify you if they think you lied. Be truthful but show them that you are willing to learn new skills and can undergo training, and maybe you need to get a certificate or associates degree from a community college to complement your other degree to specialize in some field. For example if you want to work for lawyers get a legal assistant degree, if you want to enter data get a data entry degree, if you want to develop web sites get a web development certificate. Community college does not cost as much as a four year or higher college and it will help you specialize in some area.
What you really need is a career coach or some HR services company or recruiter to go over your options. Asking Slashdot might not work as you are asking people who might be competing with you for those IT jobs and they might give you a wrong answer or have problems finding work and give you what worked for them but it doesn't fit your resume.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Its not a sign of your incompetence, its a sign of Bush's incompetence. See: Guest Worker Program.
The simple things?
Get a haircut.
Dress appropriately and wear decent shoes.
Shower, wear deodorant, and brush your teeth.
Be respectful and humble enough (i.e. don't be a jackass).
Practice interviewing.
Smile, speak clearly at an appropriate volume and with enough eye contact.
Have someone proof-read your resume (spelling doesn't matter on Slashdot, but it does matter on your resume.
I am sure someone will make a wise-crack joke about some of those, but as someone who has been on the other side of the table, all of those things matter.
The bottom line is something is wrong, other than your degree and experience, and you need to find out what it is quickly.
I Heart Sorting Networks
Couldn't you just leave out the last 2 years in your resume. There is nothing against this.
First ever post to slashdot, but felt compelled to do so after listening to that persons whining.
You need to show some initiative, either in open projects, online somehow, or in your current job. Get some code online so people can see what you do.
I have no formal qualifications, and dropped out of university after 8 months.
I started a help desk position the same as you as my first job in the workplace. While I was working on helpdesk calls I was also helping others around the office (sysadmin-ing) whenever I could. Word grew that I knew what I was talking about.
I also wrote an extension (in my evenings and weekends) to our main companys product and showed it to the CEO. He loved it and I now take a personal cut on the sales.
I'll save you the long story, but it's 2.5 years since I started that job answering phones, and I'm the 'technical operations manager', spending 50% of my time being a technical consult for the team, and 50% of my time doing R&D in the code and databases.
Get off your butt and work.
...Rather the stigma of a tech support background I suspect. Nowadays the focus is so much more on the almighty dollar that support is deemed to be a demeaning almost blue collar janitorial level job even among the IT community itself. That reminds I need to empty the trash in my cubicle before I leave...
I'm honest enough to admit I lie to myself.
Try not talking about your tech support experience, not showing it on your resume at all. Try talking about open source projects that I only hope you've been involved in, or independent projects. I worked in a computer lab when I was in college working toward my software engineering degree. That was even more useless than doing tech support, I guarantee.
That said, from my professional experience as a developer and consultant, there are two people I always make good with: The QA manager, and the Tech Support manager. Those are the guys who will give you the insights you need to make your project suck a whole lot less than it would if you called all the shots, and anyone who disagrees with that is a fool. Your time doing tech support will definitely force you to see software/hardware development in a way that is a little different, but just as valuable, as any other developer.
A couple of other possibilities:
1) You showed a bias against closed source, or Microsoft in particular. Remember that regardless of how you feel, your employer probably uses MS so you don't want to look like a bigot who's going to be hard to get along with. Make sure you don't badmouth that stuff, and also make sure you have enough current Windows experience that you know how to answer basic questions on it. People may assume that no Windows experience = no computer experience. It's not fair but it is life.
2) You have SMFU syndrome. That's Smartest MotherFucker in the Universe syndrome. Hans Reiser would be a well known example of this. You have an attitude and belief that you are much smarter than most people you meet. This really pisses people off. While you want to appear intelligent in an interview, you don't want to be at all condescending. You want to give the image of "I am smart and capable enough to work with you," not "I am waaaay better than you."
As the parent noted, it could well be people using the tech support thing as an excuse for the real reason they don't like you. Part of getting a job is being likable. Nobody wants to hire an asshole. Even assholes don't want to hire assholes.
I have many years on my resume as a consultant. Solid growth in terms of network size/scope complexity. Solid growth in the size/scope of project work that I have done. Certs, client reference letters, degrees, all earned while being a consultant. A solid line of succession over a 7 year period.
I did all of this so well that my previous employer promoted me to a "Director" level position. Rather than be in the field every day I oversaw all of our consultants. I still did project work but only on the weekends, usually in a mentor role.
Anyway the "director" level job didn't work out. When it came time to job hunt (which I did while still working) my title was scaring off potential employers. A went about six weeks with no solid hits (I mainly let people find me), then decided to alter my resume to say "manager" rather than director, and featured my previous title (systems engineer) more prominently. I had a offer letter 8 days after making that change.
Like someone else said take a look at your resume and get the focus on your schooling and off of your job. Maybe even try a resume writing service; I did that prior to moving to RTP, NC and my resume always gets compliments.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
It is true to a certain extent. I was in tech support for the last 2 1/2 years but was lucky enough to be promoted to management in less than a year. I see a lot of my peers are still struggling with crappy calls, labor intensive, frequent exchange of harsh words with customers ... people fail to see that we are just like the rest, doing our job. You don't like the software then go away ...
Well that's besides the point, truth is tech support / contact center is a crap hole so to speak. i have people coming back to me saying that they failed a lot of the interviews because they know nothing apart from supporting consumer products. you can't specialize in servers, networking or heck even programming. Of course this is arguable if you practice your programming skills at home but who has the time? 8 - 9 hours on the phone is enough to drain you out.
As I said earlier, tech support can be a stepping stone for fresh graduates but should not be a long term position especially if you are not a very chatty person.
Just my thoughts.
I had a similar situation where I graduated college in 3 years, worked a full time programming job the year after college (50 hours a week on average) while taking more college courses at night in preparation for graduate school. On my resume I included all this and people read it as if I had an internship during my senior year (they read it as 4 years of college work with a job the last year). I left the at-night, after graduation college course work off my resume and people read it as me graduating in three years and working a hard core programming gig after that. Not quite as impressive, but more impressive than the original perception. In short, don't expect people to change. They see your experience and not your degree, so leave your experience off your resume.
You took this job in your last semester -- and continued after graduation. If I were viewing your C.V. I would look at your first line tech support as just a notch above pizza delivery, dog walking, or working in a call center. Why a notch above? Because there is some marginal relevance; for some positions, even an inkling more than marginal.
The main question I'd be asking my self, is why you weren't hired out of the gate into a "real" computer engineering job (or even a "quasi" job -- e.g. QA). Is this because:
1) You aren't good enough?
2) You weren't motivated enough to find a "real" position?
3) Are you troubled in some other sort of way?
That would be my mind set -- I'd be more suspicious of your resume than a fresh graduate (there, like schrodinger's cat, I don't know if newbie joe shmoe is good or bad) -- with you, I'm fairly certain that you were:
... But if you weren't really looking, what were you doing working tech support? Frankly, if you'd been off in India in search of spirtual enlightenment then I would find (2) a good excuse -- but your case as presented, I'd almost definitely conclude (1) -- many people saw you, and decided against you. This is very clearly against you, sorry.
1) Examined by a large body of interviewers and rejected.
2) Weren't really looking.
What can you do?
1) Look for "quasi" jobs in the area. No, tech support isn't it. What I mean here, is a job in which you are in proffesional contact with the eventual position you want to grow into. Quality assurance is a good example here. You'd want to look at an organization that has room to grow into the type of job you're looking for.
2) Freelance; If you have good programming skills -- there are often all sorts of opportunities here. Yes, this will take time in addition to your day job. You should be looking for opportunities that provide income. Do enough of this, and you'll patch together a resume. Of course, this is more difficult if you're looking for a Verilog design position.
3) Widen your search parameters -- in terms of location, position, and what not.
4) Network. Speak with thsoe fellows you learnt with and have got themselves a job. If they respect you, then perhaps they can help you land a job at their company (and often, they'll receive a small bonus if they bring in someone who is hired).
5) I'd consider if mentioning your tech support job is worthwhile. Not an easy call.
6) Consider lying regarding your previous work experience. Plenty of people do this. Yes, you could be caught. But you might be at a dead end here. You don't have to lie alot -- just a little (invent yourself an entry level position for the past two years).
Set yourself a dead line (this doesn't have to be next week -- say a year or two from now) -- if you can't cut it on your own and can't land a position -- see what else you can do. Heck, you could perhaps even join the dark side and become a patent agent/draftsman.
More reasons why the downgrading of higher education only leads to debt and frustration. By bringing college to the masses...all you are doing is bringing the masses to college, if you understand what I mean. Not everyone can succeed. Not everyone is a winner, trying to get it so that in America, every child goes to college, does nothing but lessen the quality of the college education. I am /NOT/ saying you aren't capable, and that you earned your education. What I'm saying is a 4 year degree is a dime-a-dozen these days man.
Good luck to you (and to me...I work for a large computer company doing tech support for business accounts!)
Stop screwing around by trying to land a job with your resume and projects. The only thing a resume gets you is an interview. By the end of the first interview, they should know they want to hire you and you should know they're going to call. If the company is so big that your first interview isn't with the hiring authority, you should be aiming for a smaller company who will give you a chance.
And when companies say they want "recent college grads", they really mean people who graduated in the past 3-5 years and learned the ropes from some other poor company.
And when they tell you that it was because of your background in tech support, they're lying to you. The truth is they found someone else who was more qualified and probably wouldn't cost them much more, if anymore at all.
I recommend 2 choices: Quit your job now, forcing you to go get a job that you want or risk ruining your credit, sleeping in your car, or starving. OR, find an internship with a company where you get paid peanuts for 3 months and create your own opportunity to show them they should hire you full-time since you've already graduated.
There's also the typical crap about going back to your college and getting recommendations or employment search help or whatever... they'll probably just pat you on the head and ask for an alumni donation, but it's worth a shot.
If you thought programming had an easy barrier to entry, no.
Protector of Capitalist views,
Meorah
Son, I've been in your shoes. Right off the bat you've got a problem with the economy being what it is. Companies aren't going to hire willy-nilly when there are probably a lot of people more qualified than you who just got laid off. And they know it, too. They can afford to blow you off for someone with years of experience who is willing to take anything.
In my case, it was 1990 and I just got a Masters in Software Engineering after a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering. I worked the help desk in the university computer center. Just like some morons will hint to you with regards to women, you'll have to lower your standards. In my case, that meant moving from Boston to Florida.
But then again, every job you leave will leave some kind of stigma on you. The job in Florida was for a defense contractor and was classified so I could never tell a prospective employer what I did there. That's seen as an attempt to bullsh*t them. Then there's the case of working in a job you detest and the people there really have it in for you. Since they're going to be contacted for a reference, they just might bad-mouth you for spite on the grounds that how dare you try to move up in the world when the people you work for are lifers and see you as a serf. You might want to find out how your boss feels about you.
1. Improve your interview process. Dont stress about it, just be zen, do it, and you will find you did it better than when you tried really hard. 2. Do not play up the support side of your previous job. Soft skills are great, but they wont help you where you're going. Give examples of systems you because familliar with in your previous job. 3. Solo projects. Make a portfolio. It does not have to be anything substancial, or even anything professional. Just rent a domain, spend a few nights and weekends working on interesting projects, post them up there. Never a bad idea to post your resume on there either, just make sure it comes across that you did this specifically for the position you are seeking, it isnt an advertisement of how awesome you are. Make sure you have a tablet, or mobile, or something to display this webpage on during the process. 4. Dont bluff. Never bluff. If you do not know something, never ever pretend that you do. It isnt the end of the world if do bluff, but it will be the end of your interview process.
Look, the simple fact is that a lot of people aren't sure you're worth hiring.
Why? We all know people in our degree program, who graduated, who we think are useless jackasses. I knew quite a few CpEs who barely passed digital logic or programming and just wanted to build PCs for gaming all day. Some people finish CpE programs and design silicon for the big boys, others, who sat next to them in the same courses at the same time, tell people how to operate the power switch to make Windows work again. Your resume says you're in the latter group. Not only do they think you're worthless, they hate you for making their degrees look bad.
The fact that you got the degree but haven't found a use for it is a huge red flag. Especially in something useful like CpE. Good God man.
Despite that, it's not some scapegoat chicken & the egg problem. It's a technical degree, and you're applying to technical jobs. People can test what you actually know. The interview should include technical questions. Thats your chance to prove you're not a jackass. I've never been to an interview for a technical job without them asking me to talk code (I'm CS). Perhaps you've already forgotten too much? Or never really knew? Time to go through your textbooks and learn up.
Additionally, listing the courses and grades you got in them would help a lot. Unless you really are in the second category I listed, in which case you should look for the dumbest fucking hiring manager you can, and try and weasel your way into a mediocre admin job and let him think it's his lucky fucking day for getting a "massively overqualified" CpE.
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
What applications are you supporting on your helpdesk? Find out who owns them and apply for those jobs. Then you'll have both technical and hands on expertise on the application, something the hiring manager in the company would kill for.
This is what I did and it worked great.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
You should read Interesting Times, by Terry Pratchett.
There is one country where lifetime jobs are assigned based on how good you are at poetry.
Being good at "interview skills" as you describe them (thinking up answers to typical questions?!) seems to have little relation to how successful a candidate will be if employed.
BTW, I've succ
Honestly, I hate to be mean but you need to know the truth. If you're getting any kind of interview, the problem isn't your resume it's your interview skills. You wouldn't get an interview if they weren't ok with the tech support background.
The resume gets you in the door, the interview skills get you the job.
This must be a troll... I personally think it's admirable that you obviously appreciate getting "in on the ground floor..". Maybe you should change your job "target" - find a bar that you know will be frequented by people from "other levels" in the IT food chain. Save you rnickels/dimes - go there and start to chat them up. Most IT will "drive" people to a bar anyway - I suggest you get there and chat them up. I think that you've been running into incompetents - especially if you tell them you have a degree. Most of those "boobs" are deeply afraid of anybody with any sort of education. Or just "fuck-it" - move to an island in the Carribean and enjoy life. Bring a laptop, loaded with Viopsys (and the source...) and just do 'er. Hell - never waste your time on the "boobs". Life has much more to offer...
I am not speaking for other techs here but I work in tech support myself, it is a bit different as our support is very specialized for our software and we are the only level really. we do have standard techs and senior techs but that is the only difference really. seniors just get payed more and get special assignments. however I do know that most people look at tech support on a resume and do blow you off. but there are some employers like mine where tech support and troubleshooting skills are what they want. they hired me fresh out of college and trained me
This could have been written - exactly - by me!
Well, NCR did screw with a lot of people after AT&T bought them in the 80's. They are not the humanely profitable(nor innovative) employer they once were. Now they make do with clone machines and Dell/Gateway/3rd World Country rebrands.
That, and they've allowed a certain university roll over the town's history (Building 26). There is no good blood that exists that hasn't been forcibly removed from NCR.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Anonymous Coward, First of all, don't be afraid to post who you are around here. People might make a joke but so what. Moving on, I too am a recent graduate with a degree in Computer Engineering. I graduated in 2005 from a school with a strong engineering reputation. While searching for a job out of college, nobody wanted an entry level engineer. In desperate need of a job I took a first line support gig with the intention it would only be temporary. After a year at that job I realized that the promises made to me upon hiring of moving to engineering were not going to come true. In addition I had a bad feeling about the company as a whole. The company was sold three weeks after I left for a cool 6.2 Billion Dollars. I managed to land in another tech support job, but this one is quite different. Instead of dealing with grandma and her stupid UPS beeping, I was dealing with enterprise software. Oracle, WebLogic, etc. For a starting salary of 50K in a support gig, I was willing to do it again. Now a little over two years later I have expanded my knowledge of Java by troubleshooting issues in Struts. I have been able to improve on relational databases using Oracle. I've already been promoted once after one year and I'm up for another shortly. My salary has increased over 50% since my start at this company. In addition I am taking a class on Ruby scripting and starting my own web development project on the side to build my development resume. Lastly I'll be applying to grad school as well. My point here is not to put a handprint on my back. It is to acknowledge that tech support sucks completely. The only way out is to distinguish yourself. I hope I've helped, even a little.
When applying for a job use keywords(the ones they use in the job ad). Network yourself. Volunteer. Take a lower paying job in your field of choice. Go back to school for a higher degree and/or get an internship... Go back to YOUR school and get the career services people to do their job. (when looking for colleges people forget to look at employment rates of the school) Practice interviewing with friends that are hiring managers in their company. Market yourself:blog,linked in,IT toolbox,user groups, conferences,organizations,facebook, myspace,personal web site,twitter,etc. Make your resume able to be searched by recruiters and researchers.Set up an email address just for job hunting. Make a list of EVERY person you know, no matter what they do for a living,where you know them from or where they live, and tell them you are looking for a job. Be confident.(recruiters and hiring managers can smell desperation a mile away) If you can't be confident, pick a movie star you think is confident and act like they would in a job interview. Research the company and hiring manager before you go on the interview. They have a problem, tell them how you are the solution. Dress appropriately.Smell nice.Say thank you. Send a thank you note.Follow up and ask why you didn't get the job instead of guessing. Help someone else get a job.
My cup is empty , I am bereft, my coffee, my sanity, I have none left.
Take myself for example. I work in a more corporate position during the day providing technical support on a wide variety of products from
internal apps to Windows Products to networking. There's no development done here but the opportunity is available as the employer is
attempting to increase performance at a minimal cost. This means that Tier support has the opportunity to shine with new roles added
responsibilties which may include light development or preparation/training projects.
In another posistion, I'm responsible for setting up network communications on client pc's.
No script is involved in either position, but you can appreciate the difference in skill levels needed. For all purposes I'm Tier one at both positions at rebputable companies, but clearly one overshadows the other with regard to skill level. If I was to move on to a development job, I would work at honing my skills where the opportunities are frequent and more challenging. My other position is basically to hang out and wait for people to swing by for a few minor issues. Not the reference material I want for a more advanced technical position. What you could take from this is that, you want to find positions where your skill level is tapped in a stressful environment and you fly through it with ease. You may find this within your current company or, dare I say, another help desk/desk side position defined with more of a leadership/advanced skills roles. Basically, prospective employers want you to prove to them that you're qualified.
Noting the degree, you're going to have to word it differently based on what little you've told us. Basically you need to mix salesmen with
tech guru in a balanced way and only talk to the points where you're interviews become challenging. You could explain to your
interviewers that you're being considered for other positions to create a sense of urgency but this is looked down upon in the tech field.
People who use this tactic to get hired usually can't back up their work, so you'd better know your stuff from the get go.
Ok, here's what you do. You don't call it "tech support", you use functional descriptions as in "Worked for a fortune 400 company solving end-user critical production issues. Direct interface with managers and project leaders ensuring business needs of the company are met on the infrastructure level. Worked under deadlines and held down company costs by assisting our clients follow established business processes. I became proficient in these technical subjects in my employment....... I hones by business senses and people people skills by..... I particularly excelled at the following skills..... These are the major projects I helped trouble-shoot their implementation.......". And have specific examples for each of these skills you've acquired/honed. Is this Tech support? You bet. Will a recruiter catch this as tech support? If they don't then you're right going to the next level. They are the "tech support" in the worst sense of the HR/hiring process. If they do catch what your title was, then they really know what Tech support is about, and furthermore that you know the real benefit of such a position in an organization. It also shows you're business-minded. It's not lying or even fudging, it's being specific about what you were doing, from a business sense. If they ask you for your formal title, say "tech support engineer I" if that is what it actually was. Otherwise, it's more useful to them for you to use functional decriptions of your work, rather than titles which oftentimes mean nothing. Mark (A tech support specialist, which says nothing about what i really do).
In all seriousness, employers don't know you from the next Joe who has never become famous for changing the tides of the industry. They need to see and read about your accomplishments
I also did tech support for a few years, doing server maintenance on the side, all the while during my undergraduate degree. Today, I've been working for over three years as an embedded systems engineer and have been doing a master's degree part time. Coffee helps!
Just remember that you've got much more vision than the environment that you're working in, and follow through with it. Keep your finger on the pulse of the industry and find your specific are of interest by reading publications and trying to replicate experiments. Continue having realizable projects that you can do at home.
Maintaining your practise will at least prevent you from becoming a bitter tech support person, and we know that there are a lot of those!
Are you able to express your position and your duties in a way that can be understood by techies and laymen alike?
Are you afraid to say "I don't know?"
Those two items are generally the two biggest reasons a candidate would be qualified in my experience. Generally first level interviews will be with a HR Rep is knows what skills to look for but has absolutely no understanding of what those skills are. If you can not effectively communicate your experience and goals to this person in a way he/she understands, they will not believe that you understand the technology as well. Practice describing your experience in a way that your parents can understand, this will go a long way to help you.
If you don't know something you are asked in an interview DO NOT be afraid to say "I don't know"! For the most part, we are not all human sponges (yes there are exceptions) and employers don't need to always hear an answer, a number of questions will be presented just to see how you would react to an unknown situation. IF you give a false answer, it is almost a guaranteed disqualification. But if you can state I am not sure how that works and give examples of how you would research or learn for that situation it will go much further in the employers eyes... It shows a) you are not overly arrogant b) that you are willing to utilize your own time and resources to expand your knowledge c) give the employee some confidence that you will not go half-cocked into a situation you are not sure of and completely lay waste to what you should be fixing.
Sounds like you may want to go back to school and get you masters. It is a common theme that in economic times like this it may just be better to delay entry into your target work force a couple years and pick up the extra education.
I'm a hiring manager for developers and I would have to say that I would really question someone who could not get something in their field. Usually programmers always know somebody who knows somebody that is developing something and can get some hours on the project.
I agree with some responders who suggest your interviewing skills might be lacking. I highly recommend setting up some dummy interviews with a friend or willing colleague. Take it seriously, google some tech interview questions. Here's the key: video yourself being interviewed, then review the video. You will learn a ton about how you come across in the interview. Work on the areas that need work, then do it again and again until you are relaxed, composed and in command. Interviewing is the key to getting a job, and this method works well for improving your interviewing skills.
The help desk skills are more applicable to being a development supervisor. You know -- coaching people through a problem resolution process, keeping accurate records, handling several diverse problems concurrently, ....
You could always take a down grade if you don't like it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Are you applying for entry-level positions? If so, and if you are asking for an entry-level salary, then your tech support background should be a plus, and I can't imagine why you keep getting turned down.
If not....why not? Entry-level is what people with a college degree but no programming experience should be applying for.
Just keep trying, stay positive, and things will eventually work out for you.
Be glad you are employed currently, even if you feel it may be beneath you.
Have a squat over at the hobo house.
The simple solution here is to become technically certified in something. You need to increase your value, or more accurately, you need to manipulate whoever is hiring into thinking you have more value than other applicants. This dosn't mean you lie, you just need to show that you're worth more. You get out what you put in, so put in some extra effort to stand out. If you were working helpdesk supporting Windows systems, then look for Microsoft Certification (MCP/MSCE). If it was supporting a Network, then look to Cisco or Juniper Certification (CCNA, etc). If it was something Solaris related, go for some Sun Certification (SCSA). Or if you are interested in process, look to ITIL Certification. Either way, being certified in something technical will show that you have the skills and potential to contribute to an employer. By just listing the work experience on your resume, you are being stereotyped as a typical Tier 1 help desk noob. Those jobs are farmed out to 3rd world countries after all, they are not considered high level. Remember, in all actuality these Certifications don't mean squat to SME's or Guru's aka the real deal people, but for whatever reason, they mean alot to evil Management. And since evil Management does the hiring, you must fullfill their wild fantasies. Good luck!
Pierre Omidyar, tired of the programming mill, took a job in tech support at General Magic, as a furlough, prior to starting eBay - He's now the 40th richest person in the world. What's stopping you? :-)
I completely agree with the stigma and the ability for [some] hiring managers *not* to see beyond the title/organization of "tech support". Its been a long marketed (and television/movie) stigma that tech-support isn't more than just a bunch of script-reading and non-technical individuals who probalby wouldn't be able to cross organizational boundaries. I would discount, not the interviewee in this case, rather, I'd would definitely discount the hiring manager that would place this stigma on individuals. If we take tech support into perspective, there is a far range of salary and respect level a company can provide. Cisco has been known to produce some of the best CCIE's out there, only because they're forced to learn swtiching/routing protocols and have mastered the art of debugging a platform. Although, some may say its esoteric (limited to cisco) but netowrks are networks and routing protocols are routing protocols. I'm implying to to the tech-support person to carefully select this role with a company who's technology is portable. Another Cisco note is their tech support guys can range easily into the six figure range - people in this industry know people coming from cisco TAC w/ a certain salary or grade knows their "stuff" because Cisco is one of those companies who recognize talent/intellect. On the flip-side, there are jobs at Microsoft whom the first 3 levels of tech support really doesn't get you anywhere. Answers are either vague or a link is provided, leaving the customer reading a knowledge base they may or may not really understand. I know the MS pay scale isn't as aggressive as Ciscos but seeing the quality of their first line support leads me to believe that it isn't very high. Most of the posters did mention your own ability to interview, lesser an eloquent resume. This is key, at least for me, when I interview. I, myself, did everything - started in development, then went into Systems Integration then into Sales. In all these roles, I took away the best and worst aspect and realized that (perhaps) support was a good idea - you still talk to customers while still learning technology, without the traveling and sales pressure and unlike development, you're not under the gun from sales and your own development organization to get "stuff done". In the end, for myself, support isn't where I see myself. I think its every easy to get pideon-holed into the role and (depending on the company) may have a strict policy (or politics) about moving internally - leaving you one option - to leave. I take this job with a grain of salt, meaning, it just pays my bills and knowing I'll never become a VP/Director in this position - its mainly because of the support stigma and the fact that upper-level management probably doesn't visualize a person in support to have the necessary depth to grow beyond just being a technical person. Well, here's my 2 cents of it all.
"First line technical support". Have you ever called first line technical support? The most common impression of FLTS is they can't manage walking and chewing gum at the same time. I know that's unfair because in almost every case FLTS must follow scripts written more with a view of "idiot customers AND idiot tech" than just "idiot customer" rather than "There's a real problem here that needs to be solved".
First step is to get out of first tier support. Or support entirely, which is what you're trying to do.
There are local charitiable organisations that need tech help and can't afford it. Like your food bank, shelter, red cross, hell, even the BBB, NPR, PBS, or Red Cross. Go to them and offer to help with tech issues. They likely don't know squat about tech, but if you are even half way effective, they'll write a glowing recommendation because you bailed them out of trobles they couldn't solve themselves. You help not just yourself, but others that are in dire straits. For nothing else, that's worthy right there.
Example: I wrote a customer master module to be used in accounting for customers, vendors, shippers, anywhere it was needed to tie a company/person/vendor/whathave you with multiple addresses, purchase orders, sales orders, trouble tickets, history (careful to not over normalize so as to update historical records with current info) blah blah blah. End result, I used this exact module over and over and over again for pledge drives, charity auctions, setting port-a-pottys, vending machines, you name it.
I know a gal that started out as first line tech support. Climbed to managing the help desk, from there, went to web master, and is now a director of IT somewhere else. All in four years. And she's good... really good.
It can be done. If someone wants to type cast you, it's because you let them do it and don't show them why they are wrong... or they are simply grossly stupid and unobservant. In the fist case, you've only yourself to blame, in the second, better you don't work there anyway.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Just list your degree and be vague about what jobs you were working to 'get by'.
Then it should not be an issue.
Your problem is that, unless you mean something else when you say call center than what I(and your perspective employers) think, you've spent two years in what is essentially a breeding ground for bitter, unimaginative and generally twisted souls.
Your future employers are going to see not only that you spent two years in an entry level job(which doesn't look good for your initiative or ambition), but that you spent it in a job that has likely already made you bitter and twisted.
That said, once you reach the interview stage, your employment history doesn't matter all that much, so you're probably also failing to impress at the interview or applying with the wrong types of companies.
Why put tech support on your resume. If you just graduated from school just list that. It is the same problem if you are changing careers. If you were an sales clerk and now you want a job as a jet engine mechanic, list your schooling and when they ask what you did before, you say I was stressful in a career that I no longer wish to pursue, that is why you went to school and obtained your Computer Engineering degree.
I hired a technician recently BECAUSE of his many years of customer service/phone support experience. It shows that he's been able to put up with a lot, work hard on his communication and that he wants to move up. He's worked circles around my now ex-business partner and has been an awesome employee.
If you can prove solid work ethic, tangible knowledge and you interview well you should be a desirable candidate. So either these companies are underestimating the value of your previous experience, or they're not telling you the real reasons they're not hiring you.
I can't find a job because I have no experience. That is pretty bad when you first leave college, but after several years companies feel you're unemployable because no one hired you. My only hope for making any income is to create my own profitable software projects.
Dude, you don't get hired because you're Crazy Jim.
I mean, you're literally crazy. You think God speaks to you personally, you even put it on your Slashdot sig. You used to have a website where you claimed to invent all sorts of things that:
1) Were already invented before you came up with the idea,
2) You never bothered to actually make!
3) Were really, really stupid. (A comic book hero who carries katanas with rockets in the hilts?)
But when push comes to shove, it's number 2 on that list that hurts you. Everybody has ideas-- everybody in the industry has thousands of ideas for good products-- the only people who excel are the people who turn their ideas into realities.
Comment of the year
change "tech support" to "help-desk"
And tell interviewers that "your customers always came to you first because they knew you would help them."
They're using their grammar skills there.
Because they knew your experience before they offered the interview, they might be making excuses for not hiring you, and that one seems the least offensive. Could it be that you aren't as tall as they were hoping for?
On the other hand, it might just be that you haven't yet found the company with the right fit. If they reject you for bogus or arbitrary reasons like this one, then they aren't a good place for you to work because they can fire you just as arbitrarily.
Try to find a way to make your experience look beneficial to your new employers, as many here have said, but don't take it too personally. Research has shown that the interviewer's mind is usually made up in the first 45 seconds based on nothing more than seeing the applicant enter the room. The remaining 10 minutes or the hour is just a courtesy.
"anonymous" is a very poor choice for an American-sounding name. Try "Fank" or "Susan".~
No SIG for you!
I read through some of these and I think the majority of you do not understand. Tech support is a curse, once you get in, if you are not out within 6 months, you are stuck there.
For me, I was in Tech Support for 4 years before I got out. I have Bachelor's of Science for Computers, so clearly I was over qualified to work there. My first Tech support job was that of Dial-Up support, followed by DSL support, and finally Dell Computer support. I did try other jobs but was often turned down, and I am sure many of you will comment that maybe I sucked or I didn't write my resume the correct way. Or perhaps that no one wants to hire someone from tech support.
Now many of you commented on the Scripting aspect. Yes there are many tech support jobs where people read from a script to do troubleshooting, but they are all not like that. I was fortunate in my job to not have a script for troubleshooting (I did for opening and closing though, no avoiding that one).
One other aspect to touch on before my main point, is that you can also try to move up in the company and get a management role and try to switch jobs that way, but often times that means selling out. What I mean by that, is very rarely someone who is able to fix problems is promoted. Usually someone who can follow the call metrics the best is promoted up, such as call time and transfer rate. Some would look at that as, they can solve problems faster than others, but unfortunately, it is not the case, because if you ask these people help on an advanced issue, they will stare at you with a blank expression. They are simply cheating the system, because that is what Call Centers want. They don't care if you fix the problem, they care that you answer the phones, because the majority of them are paid on how fast you can answer the phone. Their metric is based on how long after a call reaches their queue to actually get the call answered by an agent. The companies I worked for, it was usually 2 minutes. And I have been in situations where we were over 100 calls in queue and we had our Supervisors hover over us to pass the call on. So you work in an environment that cares more about a call answered than actually fixing a problem, and when you call up they pass the buck somewhere else. ex. It is Microsoft fault, it is your OEM's fault, it is your ISP fault. It is not that the agent is incompetent, but that the company will not let them help you fix it. But there are many agent who cannot fix it, and these are the ones that have you check to see if the power cord of your computer is plugged in for a no Internet issue.
Now for me, I did tech support for 4 years believing the only way for me to leave was to start my own business (which I was on the way to do), but I did get out of it. I am now a Field Engineer (fancy way of saying Field Tech) that does work for SuperMarkets. I got the opportunity to apply for this job because I had a friend who already did IT support for the company. I was later told that I got the job because of where I lived and the fact that I had an A+ cert (which honestly I consider useless but for companies, it looks good on paper). And my point of contact at that job who I knew from college gave me a really good recommendation.
From there, many might say, just get your certs, then companies will hire you. Not true. I knew many who has their MCSE (also useless), Net+, CCNA, that were over qualified to do Tech Support also stuck there.
So to the original poster of this article, I understand perfectly what you are going though and I have some helpful advice.
1) Get to know those in your call center. Become buddy buddy with them, as they may lead you to a better call center or out of the career field.
2) Keep in contact with those you went to college with. Maybe down the road they can help you get a job at their company.
3) Prepare to wait awhile doing what you are doing. Sometimes you can quickly get in and out of the job, other times you must pay your due
The handwriting is on the wall, the FSM wants you to start your own company instead. "Go with the flow", as we used to say, back in the day....
Get certified?
School don't mean jack, you know this!
I never graduated from high school. I run mult-million dollar servers. What did I do? I got certified.
The other thing, make friends. Go to a LUG or somethig. Most bosses trust their own underlings to find new hires for them. Make friends and those folks will recommend you.
Start a startup. It doesn't matter if it succeeds or fails.
Seriously. While I was in college, I started one of my own -- a development shop. We got one contract, executed it nicely and got some good scratch with which to buy booze and pay a few months of rent. Then we realized that you can't really run a company and do your homework at the same time, and the company fell apart.
I then worked as a sysadmin / tech-support for a little over a year to pay the bills (sounds similar to your situation), before deciding that I couldn't handle doing something I hated any more.
That's when I joined another startup as the lead developer. It seemed like it was going well, then we launched one day after what turned out was a major competitor that kind of blindsided us (Google Groups). After flailing around for a while (and writing a whole lot more software for the company that they didn't feel like releasing), the company was in its death throes and I left.
This was about three months after I'd graduated, and it was remarkably easy to get a job. All the recruiters and interviewers I talked to were very impressed by the company I'd started, less impressed by the startup I'd joined, and not at all impressed by the sysadmin job or the programming job I'd had in high school.
So if you have a few months of living expenses saved up, quit your job and start a startup company. 99% chance it'll fail, but it seems to me that afterwards you'll have a much better chance at getting a job.
What do you have to lose? With two years of tech support experience you'll have no trouble getting another tech support job.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
They don't give a shit about you and will throw your ass out on the street the minute the stock drops 2 points, so lie to them. Tell them whatever they want to hear. Put a company like Vandelay Industries on your resume. Tell them you were "in latex". List your friend's phone number and have them answer their phone appropriately and give you a glowing report.
Are you certain you possess the job qualities the employer is looking for? I am a small business owner and have been the interviewer. A few months ago I put an ad up for a job for a person with knowledge of Linux, specifically redhat based. I got between 20 and 30 responses to the ad and constantly received resumes from people who were experts at Office, Outlook and windows based systems. Many did not even list Linux on their resume. Make sure you skill set somewhat matches with what the company is looking for.
I suggest looking into a small company - maybe check out craigslist for jobs in your area. In your free time pick up a new programming language, or get familiar with another operating system and keep learning.
I changed careers (twice), and at 36, I started on a help desk doing tech support. Three months later, our sysadmin left, and I was asked (while on sick leave, after back surgery) to take his place. I had studied enough on my own to impress my supervisor with my knowledge of system administration.
These days, it's easier than ever to get a cheap computer at home and start programming, or building networks, or just tearing it down and building it up again and again. Instead of playing video games, start reading programming blogs. Take action, and start reading all the pdfs and RFCs that you can.
One last thing: After I left that sysadmin job, I was in the position to hire a junior admin to help me out. I went back to the old place, and looked for the best tech they had, and made him an offer. When you do get hired, remember where you came from, and "pay it forward".
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've a friend in your situation. I don't have the heart to tell him that he just doesn't have the skill to do software development. He's very smart... but when it comes to programming, he doesn't "get it". He struggles with the very basic concepts, and has for years - though he doesn't realize that it is not a struggle like this for those people who /are/ programmers.
Don't call it tech support. Call it network administration.
I can understand why you are going nowhere. You are burned-out, and the job is not challenging. You have hit the glass ceiling. You certainly deserve to gain some experience programming with your background, but the market just isn't good right now.
Nobody wants to take any risks. If your employer knows they can keep you at your current position, they won't offer any incentive to move to a new one. Companies looking for programmers can find all kinds of overqualified people who are looking for work. Either that or they can afford to wait.
One tactic is to consider applying for other jobs that involve programming, but are not pure programming jobs per se. Like SDET or QA Engineer or builder. Then, after you get the job, just start automating everything you possibly can. You will advance, and gain the only thing that really matters to you - commercial programming experience.
During interviews I found it helps to be interested and excited about telling people all the cool details of your last programming projects. When they ask, exploit every opportunity to tell them all the gruesome details about your projects. The worst thing you can do is appear to be bored.
It doesn't hurt to sweat a bit and seem nervous either. There is something about a nervous, sweating applicant who is excited about programming that is very appealing to egos (or the humanity) of people who will decide your fate. It helps to have a fever or toothache or some other discomfort at the time of the interview. Every job offer I got was under these circumstances.
In short, under the surface, you must appear like you want this job like you are some kind of heroin addict looking for a fix. On the surface, you must simply show that you love programming and can't stop talking about all the details.
You don't even have to code well on the white board, be a white guy, or even speak English very well. You just have to leave the impression that you are the only person they have talked to who is truly excited and eager to get the job.
Don't write tech support on your resume. Either find some fancy tech-sounding euphemism to call it, or take it off your resume. When they ask what you did during that period of time, tell them you took a long vacation from working. If you consider tech support to be a no-brainer that doesn't make you do "real work" then you're probably telling the truth in some way.
McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
Start your own company. Yeah, cop out answer? Sure thing, but it still rings true. That way you hold more of your own destiny.
The problem is that humans in general, and of course also employers, make too many assumptions based on bad heuristics (stereotypes). One such bad heuristic is that they look at you as part of a group rather than an individual person, and if they believe that "your" group is "bad" then they will think that you are also bad as an individual. Employers also assume that since you are asking to become an employee then you must be in a financial need to do so, and furthermore they also assume that everyone out there will want what they consider the "best" job.
These assumptions and the heuristics they are based on are very dangerous and often lead to inefficiency. A manager following such group-based heuristics can damage their company by not hiring the best talent out there, as talent is very often non-conformist, eccentric, especial, and incompatible with many sets of heuristics.
In your case, I think that the line of thinking of the hiring managers you sent your CV to must have been as follows: "this person here by sending me a CV asks me for a job as an employee, which means that they currently have a financial need to work. Since they currently have such a need, it follows that they always had this need. With this in mind, it follows that this person, if they are smart, must have chosen the best possible university places and jobs that would provide them with the highest possible financial and societal return. But in their CV we see that they worked for tech support, which is a job with low financial returns and low social status. Therefore, by accepting this job offer this person proved that they were incapable, at that time, of finding a better job. And since they were incapable of finding a better job then, they must still be an unsatisfactory employee today, so we must reject his application".
This line of thinking is incorrect and bad for a company because it is based on assumptions that derive from heuristics which are very ineffective and inefficient, and lead to a high number of false positives and false negatives. By using these bad heuristics, the manager may lose the best talent. It has happened before: people were saying that Einstein was dim when he was at school, because he didn't fit the heuristics favoured by society at his time. It has happened in much larger scale as well: In the German society before WW2 the Nazis and Nazi followers held the heuristic that everyone who was Jewish was undesirable and as a result they prosecuted or threw out of academia all Jewish physicists and others who they didn't like. But this caused a shortage of physics professors and researchers in Germany, and as a result the Nazis failed to develop an abomb - which was instead developed, together with lots of aerospace technologies, by America and other Allies which happily welcomed these prosecuted physicists.
Thus, we see that a heuristical thinking can lead to loss of productivity and drive out the best talent. Talent is talent because it's creative and intelligent, and creativity is to be unique, which means that lots of talent may end up in places we wouldn't expect them to be, more so if our heuristics about what constitutes "success" are out of touch with reality.
Many white people, until a few decades ago, held similar bad heuristics about groups based on skin colour, and in America large groups of people were called "the colored" as if somehow the skin colour is such an important personal characteristic to make one part of a group or not. People believed then that those with black skin were inferior or incapable of becoming successful. The heuristic was quite simplistic: "black = unsuccessful = undesirable". But this heuristic proved wrong, as at the moment that discrimination against skin colour was eased, the same people who previously were called "the colored" achieved great financial success and today many millionaries and billionaries are black, proving that factors and characteristics leading to success are embedded to the individual rather than to some imaginary
Best interview advice I can give is buy the book "101 Great Answers to the Toughest Interview Questions".
I found how much I sucked at interviews when I read this book. Because of this book I wrote an interview plan. I practiced, practiced, practiced in front of others. Since that time I have given great interviews and secured jobs I wanted.
Suggested retail is $ 12.00 so it's a low cost investment in giving better interviews.
sucks to suck dont it
So modify your resume saying that you traveled, saw the world and now need work to pay off your credit card... ...and don't forget to go to the library and get a stack of travel videos so you can back up the story...
Since you are getting in the door, I will not waste time talking about your resume. It sounds to me like there is something about the way you talk about your experience and/or come across that sends up a red flag. Since another responder dealt with the topic of dress code/appearance, I will skip that piece and offer up other ways in which you can go about improving your ability to land your next job:
1. Get a tape recorder and record yourself answering the top 20 most frequently asked interview questions (google them). Better yet, get a video camera. Are you saying um over and over? What is your body language like? Are you too laid back in your chair, appearing aloof? Are you leaning forward, appearing insecure? Answer the questions with SPECIFIC examples from your experiences. Do not ramble. Are you having fun or are you uncomfortable? Practice asking questions of the employer and/or of the company. (It is important to be able to ask the right questions so that you can identify the employer's greatest need and/or the problems they are looking for someone to solve. The next challenge is to speak about your experience, when answering their questions, in a way that convinces them that you have the experience to solve their problems. This is not an easy skill to master. I have met very few people who can do it well).
2. Make every attempt to follow up with employers who reject you and ask why you did not make it to the next round. I still do this after almost 20 years.
3. Keep in touch with folks who reject you, if you liked them, and especially if you liked the company. Do not harass them, but if you are still interested in working in that position or for that company a year later, shoot them an email and see how things are going. Getting hired is more about networking and who you know and less about applying to jobs via monster. You will see that when you get older many of the high tech people follow their friends around from job to job. It is a really incestuous field, and as such is quite dangerous for companies. I rarely hire friends of friends and have more respect for folks I interview, who are good candidates, who do not have any connections.
4. Do not apply to jobs via monster. That is where millions of people look, mostly in vain. You are better off sending your resume into space. Contact employers regarding jobs posted on their websites. Better yet, contact employers you want to work for regardless of whether or not you see a job just to find out if you can get an informational interview. Keep in touch with the person who interviews you.
5. Even though you are inexperienced, do not forget that you have to be confident in your ability to be successful and solve problems in order to convince someone that you are the right person for the job. Anyone who looks down upon tech support experience knows nothing about what makes technology successful. You do not want to work for them. Fact of the matter is without tech support most technology would fail. Tech support should be a mandatory rite of passage for engineers. Did you know that UPS makes all its employees start off by driving a truck? Even MBAs from Wharton.
Hey man, I started as a level 1 phone bitch back in the day. I know it sucks, but I was only there for about six months or so. You have to really "prove" yourself and try to shine above everyone else. Look at existing processes and try to come up with better ways of doing them.
Even if they're not accepted (three of my suggestions went ignored for about 3 years), but you're going to get managements attention. If you get their attention you might get a project.
Personally, I excelled at e-mail and took over e-mail management for Tech Support, then I took over the company's Knowledge base, then the entire CRM. After getting CRM experience under my belt, I managed to score a new job (mind you I don't have a degree and I was 24 at the time) doubling what I had made at the previous company while only being on the market two weeks.
So long story short, get management attention, get projects, move up the ladder. Once you do that you'll loose the stigma of "tech support" because you'll be a "Project Manager" or some other for company xyz instead of "Tech Support" for company xyz. It will take a bit longer (This was the reason why I did the exact opposite of you in terms of college), but in the long run you'll have the experience that companies are looking for.
Also, once you do move up don't wait to long to get your feelers out, give it a good year or two then jump ship. That will give you 4 years of experience at xyz company even though you're only listing what you had done in the last couple of years.
Not that for the post I chose "superninja" as the user. The original account sounded similar and yes, it was from hotmail. In any case DO NOT E-MAIL that please.
Having gone through similar experiences recently, and finally landing a job that may very well be the job of my dreams, my advice is to just keep trying, and ask all the questions you can while you have the chance, as it seems you did when given the responses you mention. Also, without actually seeing your resume I don't know if this will really help, but try to edit so that "Tech Support" is a detailed summary of your accomplishments in the field as related to the position you're hiring for. I edited every single resume I sent out as per the job description for the position. Try headhunters, they usually work hard for you if the company pays them after hiring you. Also, try non-American companies based in the U.S., as they tend to have some more cash flow these days. Mostly from what I noticed, companies want to know that you're well rounded and can do more than just what they're asking for but not so much that you come off as over qualified. In my company, I'm Tech Support for our products, but also a trainer and I work with the Sales team in marketing the products because of my technical understanding of the products. I'm also the "IT Liaison" because of my tech support background and am in charge of translating from the IT guys to the Sales/Marketing people and management and vice versa. If you can show that you can wear a few hats and without sweating too much, you stand a better chance. Lastly, patience. We're not in the greatest market right now for looking for jobs. It took me about 8 months to find mine. I consider myself lucky. One friend and one cousin each moved out of the country to find decent paying jobs in software engineering/support roles, and that was after over a year of searching.
WWJD? (What Would Jonas Do? - Spinward Fringe by Ran
Thanks for saving my fingertips from some added stress.
The fact you've been stuck on it for 2 years means you basically have to list it on your resume, since a 2 year black hole of joblessness is something incredibly suspicious. But don't count it as something towards your professional experience, stick it on the bottom of the resume under job experience, where working at McDonalds would go.
Also, be up-front about your situation, but don't bring it up. If they ask about working as tech support, straightforwardly, tell that you've been applying and getting interviews, and haven't had much luck, and don't want anyone to think that your idea of being a computer engineer is telling people to plug in their modem. Apply online such as monster and attend job fairs as well, where you'll be more likely to be hired by companies who are in more desperate need of employees.
At the very least, you'll get some tips as to WHY you weren't hired. Also, make sure you are good at programming. That's way more important than knowing how to use an operating system or put together computer hardware.
Get the Certifications it shows you want to advance. Become familiar with the various Linux distributions and choose one.
Become familiar with many computer languages, but more important become familiar with there Uses. The programming paradigms and programming concepts. If you learn the basic and advance language concepts you will get the the point were you can program in any language.
This were Linux is really important. You can any computer language for free.
Learn C++ well this makes Learning C, C#, Java, easy.
But do not for get to learn scripting languages such as Perl.
And at least know some software engineering
concepts and AI concepts.
You do not need to add this to you resume but put the ones you know the best.
If you really feel that your skills are rusting get an advanced degree.
That is what got me a job. I received my CS degree in 2002 and could not even find an IT job. I went back and finished a EE degree I ended up in excellent programming position. In of all things C, C++, Perl and Lisp. Never thought I would need Lisp. But my current project is a support position in legacy code.
If you know VHDL or another HDL put it on the resume and shop it around with C++ to some of the embedded people.
Go to all open house Job searches that companies offer and talk to them. Ask for an interview and discuss what work they do. Look into the big engineering technology companies such as Jacobs Technology. Attend free conferences. And network. After all every job I have ever had has been found by accident.
If the summary is true then why not get a Masters degree (in CS, CE, etc)? It doesn't take long, doesn't need to be very expensive and is likely to pay for itself over time if you can leverage it.
Get a job on campus working in research groups to avoid tech support.
Obviously, this won't work for everyone but if it works for your life situation I'd say you could do far worse.
I saw some BRILLIANT people come from tech support. This is not the kind of support Joe Sixpack would be able to call up on the phone, though. This is what they charge enterprises for. There was one dude who knew Active Directory inside and out, and then some. He very quickly moved through the ranks, since it helps when you know the product better than the developers who wrote it (developers have limited visibility into other people's code, since they're constantly in "nose to the grindstone" mode).
So there's tech support and then there's tech support. Perhaps you should first target a more technical support role and then work your way up from there.
Just take it off your resume. I've changed career a couple of times. I've had no-technical jobs when going back to school. There are lots of things I leave off my resume because they're not relevant.
The stuff *on* my resume is super-relevant. If that doesn't get me to the interview, then I don't want to work there anyway.
Once I get to the interview, it's mine to win of lose. I think I've only lost 1 that I wanted. And my alternate ended up being about a million dollars more lucrative. Ahh, start-ups... :)
I interview tons of people. There has never been a job on a resume that causes me to discount a person out of hand.
Do you think it might be that you interview badly and they're just handing you a convenient excuse? *That* is common.
Given that your professional background consists of working in a call center, and that you probably aren't applying for call center positions... I mean, you can't see the mismatch here?
Unless I were facing an extreme shortage of applicants... I'd agree with them.
But what you can't show them is any experience, nor can you show them any initiative - having simply stuck with the same very low level job.
My personal experience was nearly the same. I started out on an assembly line, moved up to an engineering position, became a field administrator/tech then helped to start and manage a help desk, which was incredibly good and got great reviews from independent sources. From that point I moved to a position of remote support, not help desk, but real remote support with techs in the field acting as eyes and ears and us acting as brains, definitely not a help desk, the help desk referred to us for help. I took up another just as advanced position and became pigeon holed as help desk, though I was not. I didn't think I would ever get another real tech job. Fortunately my current employer saw my satellite support skills from those "help desk" like jobs of the past as a plus at NASA and I'm working as a real tech again, and I'm moving back towards being a field engineer with my own company.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
I've been working overtime recently. Sadly, even I haven't learned that working overtime causes me to make bad decisions...
Today I looked at code that really should be refactored. And had I taken time to think about the problem, instead of approach it with the "let's ship something now" attitude, I would have done it differently. But in spite of the OT, I'm a few weeks past deadline (again, arbitrary opinion of management...) and, something occurred to me that hadn't ever before in my career:
I could ship this code as is.
The perfectionist in me says it should be refactored, and go through another round of testing. But, 1.) it works now, as is, and 2.) defects don't count against the deadline. I'll get dinged for not meeting a deadline, but engineers never get dinged for releasing buggy code.
So I don't have to work OT. I just have to deliver. And by delivery, we mean that quality matters less than deadlines. Am I setting up the maintainer for a nightmare? You bet. But my colleagues will think of me as some kind of expert because the code is complicated, and I got it done "fast". The maintainers will curse me.
But, I have to keep in mind that my employer can't be loyal to its employees. It doesn't matter how beautiful the code is, or how easily maintained it is. This is no ivory tower, this is Corporate America(TM). If it's not on someone's metric sheet, it doesn't matter. Deadlines matter today; tomorrow someone else will have to take the heat for why it can't be maintained.
And yes, I'll be pleasant when I decline overtime. But I would rather have the support from management to leave a legacy of a job well done, rather than one which merely met some artificial deadline and crude metrics. Sometimes I think that Corporate America has no place for those passionate about their jobs... or for long-term thinking.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Maybe the question you need to be asking is what qualifications employers prefer to see in their candidates? Perhaps you have the qualifications they are looking for but have not presented them effectively? Keep in mind that it is a competetive marketplace and the employer will chose the best candidate they can get.
Know your competition. The other candidates may have industry experience in the form of one or two summer internships. They may have experience working on campus, perhaps in a lab, which, while not necessarily applicable to the desired job, gets them a reference with a PhD. Maybe they have participated in extra-curricular programming competitions, like the ICPC or other regional competition. Perhaps they worked tech support in high school? I guess the point is that tech support really isn't the sort of experience that one wants to display their skills from a computer engineering degree.
How do you proceed? You can probably find employment on campus sufficient to leverage your new skills. Do you have any friends working for one of the places you'd like to work? Are you close enough to list them as a reference? I have helped several friends get jobs by offering to be their references, but I don't do it unless I really beleive they are qualified for the position. Maybe you are making an error during the interview and could benefit from a workshop.
Good luck.
If you made it to the first interview then your background (in tech support) isn't the problem. The interviewer's time is worth too much to spend it interviewing the dozens of applicants whose background indicated a problem.
No, the problem is you. Either your presentation is poor (did you dress in a suit? conservative tie? do you smell? have open pustules? how long is your hair?), your mad computer engineering skillz don't add up to what you think they do OR (and this last one is very common) you didn't exhibit a can-do attitude.
Did you disdain your tech support background? It may be that the company is looking for a junior developer to interface with an upscale client, help with the testing, implement a little of the the easy stuff but mostly translate requirements for the senior devs. If you truly have the skills, that's as good a bridge as any. Better really: a cross-disciplinary role puts you in a controlling position, where your talent (if you have it) will shine.
The worst person I've ever interviewed explained that in a systems administration role there should never be a reason why he'd be expected to stay after 5 pm. The second worst explained that he was no stranger to keeping a cot in his office to deal with routinely long hours. The former indicated a bad attitude combined with poor judgment: an unrealistic assessment of a system administrator's job. The latter indicated a fellow who worked harder when I wanted someone to work smarter... a quality sysadmin prevents more fires than he fights. If you're fighting enough fires to need a cot in your office, you're not up to the task.
My favorite line in an interview is: "Point me at the problem that's giving you the most grief. I have a broad range of expertise and I'm ready to put it to use where it will best benefit you."
Yes, there is some reluctance to hire folks outside of their background. I recently made the transition from the systems administration track to software development track, so I've experienced it. Nevertheless, the only interview that didn't generate a job offer was one where the company specifically did not want a software developer.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
A lot of people here have contributed useful advice on the technical aspect of the situation.
One big lesson I've learned this year is *huge* value of personal relationships. I knew it was important before, but now I'm really beginning to appreciate the magnitude of it.
I think a lot of us nerd and geek types grew up independent and idealistic... perhaps not pursuing many group activities because we could sense a great deal of bs required in such things (saying things you don't mean, kissing butt, holding your tongue). We're smart enough to realize what a big silly game it can be. Us geeky types are principle-oriented... we wouldn't want to drawn into playing that game. As an adult, you look around and see that the same thing very much exists there too.
Geeks expect our intelligence and skills to get us everywhere, but personal relationships and how people perceive you are the things that will give you opportunities.
You need to develop all sorts of contacts. Get involved with many different groups. Talk more with the more distant family members (cousins are generally a good one). Don't be shy about putting yourself into situations you're not comfortable in, and don't be shy about asking for something you would like or need. Start doing personal favors for people other than your closest friends. If you're at a party where there are people you don't know, make the effort to start and carry on a conversation with them.
Learn to take genuine interest in others, and they will remember you.
Isn't it the same people, though, who later whine about young 'uns these days lacking loyalty, when they run to another job for an extra buck per hour? So you'd think that someone possibly being dumb enough to work for too little money for their skills, would actually be a bonus in the long run ;)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Only in America do we punish people for working.
People need time to develop at different rates. There are qualitative shifts in the brain that occur in the mid twenties. Not everyone explodes out of the gate on a superstar track.
I agree with the advice elsewhere about smaller companies. It's less compartmentalized, and there's more room to wiggle defining roles. I started as a "stopgap jack of several trades" to nudge my company forward. As we have since hired a more classically skilled IT lead who worked with an even stronger consultant to build our server, I now add a "20% of my day" backup "helpdesk" effect that keeps the day flowing. I shifted to bug testing the enterprise software packages we have.
My resume was also rather weak, but my boss banked on classical values like attitude and enthusiasm. I could not have possibly predicted what I am doing now, so why punish someone for not having flawless prior experience?
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
PM's are not possible on /. AFAIK.
if you enter it as a journal entry people can respond there, or you can publish an email.
This is also relevant to my interests.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
I'd read about IceWeasel a long time back, but I never got around to checking for a Windows port. The Firefox branding did its thing getting me off of IE, but now "a browser is a browser" so onward I go. Good tip.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Shaving is unmanly. You want to look like a boy?
Most of the great hackers have beards. Ritchie, Stallman, Cox...
A bare chin (and suit even! WTF???) screams "marketdroid". It means somebody who does Powerpoint. (probably eats tofu even!)
Your goal should be to attain greybeard status.
I go to interviews equipped with full beard and non-dress shirt. It may even be jeans and T-shirt. It works most excellently.
Also, there's usually a problem with that kind of generalizations. I mean, by the same logic, someone who's a man will like women, but you'd be awfully wrong about 10% of the population there.
At any rate, as I was saying, they _can_ just give the guy a test, so why is it even necessary to reach for lame generalizations and guesswork there? Instead of guessing whether a guy is competent based on his previous job, star sign, numerology score, racial profile, or any other BS, how about just asking and seeing for yourself? I mean:
- if he's going for programmer, ask him to write a quick FizzBizz
- if he claims to be an architect guru, ask him when he _wouldn't_ use patterns X, Y and Z. Weeds out the Cargo Cult architects like a charm.
- if he's going for DBA, ask him, say, about the auto-tuning since Oracle 10g or whatever apropriate
- if he's going for WebSphere admin, ask him about configuring a cluster and, say, how do you configure an EJB as singleton in the high-availability manager
Etc.
And I'm not just saying that because some ex-L1 monkey could actually be competent (greater miracles have been known to happen), but also because someone coming from some great job could be a Wally. There are entirely too many places where you can keep a job by just having a butt to fill a chair, and even more where a little social engineering is all that's needed. There are people who keep their job by pretending to be the boss's best friend, or the best friend of some nerd who'll then write his programs too, etc.
According to one article I've seen, about 3 out of 4 programmers can't actually program worth beans and actually do more harm than good to the projects they're in. According to another study, a bit over 2 out of 3 didn't know the language they're paid to program in. That bad.
So hiring someone just because he had a job like that, seems stupid.
I could understand it, if guesswork was the only choice. But when you can put the guy in front of a cloned computer and ask him to demonstrate those l33t skillz, why not do just that? You can even have a laptop and a stack of pre-cloned HDDs (e.g., with the same mis-tuned database if you hire a DBA), and just swap them between interviews.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Yes!
I'll broaden this theme a little.
As evidenced by many of the posts in this thread, there's a culture that "you can't be seen doing grunt work if you want to fast-track".
That leads to the PHB mentality eventually, even if it takes time. "Oh, I can code in four languages, but I can't tell you the System code for the printer so HR can fix her newsletter?"
It's a tough balance, but having a finger on the pulse of the gut level ops is important in my view.
I also disagree with "take the job off the resume" because that gets close to the shady side of life. I'd advise he take one of those quick $50 classes on interviewing/speaking so that he can brush by "Yea, I had to get some rent money while I looked for the best fit".
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I see your attitude, but I really don't like lying to people. I'm at least quasi knowledgeable, so when it was time for me to get past the silly questions, I took toward giving them paragraph answers to try to drill through their script. It's honest, and has pretty much the same effect.
"I checked my cables, rebooted, turned the modem off and back on, tried a couple system restore points, all three of my computers have the same problem when I plugged them into the modem, I can't ping sites, so what would you like to do now?"
Turned out the modem was defective.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Sometimes there's a gap between HR who tends to be classically trained in weird variants of SugarySpeech, and the manager who will actually be your boss.
While I probably took a hit on my resume, I liked the Temp circuit for a while because you got placed within four days instead of HR's "call you in three weeks to say sorry you're not hired" routine.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Probably the only way around it is to make good contacts. Sorry, guy. Many software engineers are deeply contemptuous of tech support, and I suspect there's are secret reasons: they aren't any good it at it and it reminds them that their work is actually done for some human purpose.
tell them it was a database research environment or something for a new product you worked on. You can lie when you solicitate, or rather tell what you do in different ways. In the end of the day what scores is that you get the job, if you're able to do it, then it doesnt count how you got it. that acounts for your experience but also for getting a job. remember you never get rich when your too honest. If you think its verry wrong to do, wel so is the otherside "it is verry wrong not to hire you." It depends how you can play or fool around with people, if you worked in a call centre you should had learned such wisdom.. You know people are rarely tracked for what work they did; if you're afright of that might happen, then give them a name of your friends and tell them he was your manager there. its simple Wish you luck to get a job
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
Not gaming the interview, but "communication" skills are actually judged. Sometimes HR has their eye on Neo-management types who might move sideways into a different position than what they are actually interviewing for.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
It "looks modern" to those Nice HR types. But then interviews are all about the presentation anyway.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
You need an employer who truly is hiring for entry level positions, since your experience is not judged relevant. Sometimes an ad saying "entry level" actually means "we will pay you like garbage but expect you to be perfect from day 1". Your best bets will be things like college career fairs and leads from your college's career services department - these will be employers who really are looking for recent grads. Even then they will prefer experience, such as from a co-op program or internships, but at least it's somewhere to start.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
If you think your tech support background is hampering your chances, just omit it from your resume. At least you'll have the same chances as the other recent graduates...
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
why don't you omit your tech support background?
It seems to me that many of you never have worked for a call centre ever.
You don't get hired mainly for your skills. If you have good skills that's just a plus. You mainly get hired because they need people.
They will always promise that you will get promoted, but after a few months you end up meeting people who have worked on 1st line for 1-2 years and that are highly skilled, but still are waiting to get promoted.
And they don't promote you for your skills, but maybe someone is leaving or you brown nose well enough.
To do it good in a call centre you have to be devious and fend for yourself. Be ready to step on people to get promoted.
Just don't list your experience. If you're a recent graduate applying for a new job, they won't expect any experience any ways. The job was good for short-term cash, but it's hurting you now. Cut it. You were in school, and they won't ask questions. This job does not seem to be relevant work experience.
It is actually hard to switch from support to a different field, specially if you don't like support. The main reason is because when employers ask you for intance, what don't you like about your current job, it is easy to go on and on with negative remarks, which can scare the person interviewing you. So a small tip, try to find the positive aspects of your current position and also make sure they understand why you want this new challenge and why in support you can not reach your goals. If you follow the advice of removing your current support experience from your resume, make sure to replace that gap with something else (studying, taking time of, freelance), because they will wanna know what you been doing for the past couple of years.
If it's possible, have you thought about trying to move within your company? Tell them about your career aspirations, perhaps there are some opportunities there. It could be the foot in the door that you need.
Don't worry about rocking the boat. With your experience you could always find another tech-support job.
I've run into this time and time again. I've been mostly-unemployed (I'm told I should call this "self employed" or such) for the past year due to similar "shortcomings" which were either outside my ability to control (company layoffs shortly after starting) or, as you describe, resulting in a negative stigma.
My experience/training is more in IT than EE type work, but I've still not managed to escape the stigma. A friend, an animator, who has had a much more tumultuous employment history, with many more gaps, but has no problem picking up a new job whenever he wants one (and while he's talented, he's not a complete cut above the rest).
These are a couple guesses as to why this is happening to the both of us (and apparently many others):
1) Companies are very, very picky about hiring anyone for "computer related" jobs. The only thing I can figure is that HR types have been taught that IT/CS/EE = diploma mill hacks and shysters.
2) There really is a glut of IT/CS/EE graduates out there, for what the market can provide. Maybe, maybe not - but it seems to me that there are a lot of "entry level" IT/CS jobs which end up going to people with a fair amount of experience. I certainly think there are a lot fewer jobs out there right now than graduates, at least based on what I've heard from recruiters/etc.
3) HR types might just not know what they're looking at, or what they're looking for, when they look for technical people. They might prefer hiring someone with a more traditional degree who they think can "cut it".
4) Indian H1B workers. Who knows?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Yeah, thank God (hehe) for the Internet archive. Maybe if he spent less time playing Starcraft and Warcraft 3 and on pseudo-philosophical quasi-religios nonsense.... He does sound crazy, like TimeCube crazy.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
American capitalists get very excited around these.
What makes you think that people should take your degree seriously? Certainly my experience is that people with computer-related degrees are less useful in the workplace as programmers or sysadmins than people with either no degree or a degree in an unrelated field such as economics, geology, astrophysics or theology. I don't care why that might be.
You make a very good point - each time you update a resume (or CV here in UKland) you should be writing it for the job you're applying for - different jobs will have different specs, so you should make a point of how _your_ experience meets _their_ spec. And gloss over stuff that isn't at all relevant - e.g. I have 'worked in a supermarket' as my first employment, and that just about gets a line of the CV as an indication that I wasn't a workshy layabout, and that's about it - unless I'm applying for something that required 'customer facing' skills, where the fact that I was doing customer services is valuable and relevant.
The combination of the dotcom crash and the Bush Administration outsourcing everything in it's quest for cheap labor means that IT jobs are tough to find right now. In Oregon the unemployment rate was 60% higher than in the rest of the country and sending out a resume was as good has dumping it in the trash. Be prepared to relocate ANYWHERE if you want a job. Consider a contract position out of the country. Any place where they have oil has a booming economy right now, but the results of the election in November may change the "Hot" job markets. Consider going back for a MBA to go with your Computer training. Pointy Haired Bosses are always hired, even if they really don't do much. (Sigh). [For some reason this site does not accept my attempts to paginate, sorry it looks like 1 big sentance ;-) ]
Remember: You don't need to tell the employer the job is a volunteer job unless they ask and volunteering for 5 hours a week as a database administrator for the local office of the American Cancer Society (or another well know charity) looks great on your resume.
When I got it at Aggieland it was one of two things a CS with EE minor or EE with CS minor. Is this something different? Either way, going back to school might make a nice "reset switch". Having an MS in CS or math wouldn't just help out with real work, it would set the clock back to "newgrad" status for the HR whackjobs.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
I personally haven`t had that problem. I did first line support, but it wasn`t on phone it was inside a small compagny. Here is what I suggest to get this behind you. ry and get hired for support in a compagny where you can get advancement. Thats what I did. I worked my way to the top, I started at first level support, then second, then first thing I knew I was head of the department of technical operation. Now I switched company and Im a linux system administrator. I hope this will help you in anyway. Good luck friend
move the wording around might help try this aproce easy net 06-08 - worked as a network anlisist/code cleaner/technical support operative once you get to write many cv's you'll learn this is quite normal
Hi,
I have been there. For me it was possibly even harder as I could provide support in 4 languages, so it was front-line where I was needed the most.
Here is what I (eventually) did:
- volunteer for training new recruits (now you apply for training jobs)
- volunteer to set up (or update) an intranet site with know issues, outages, tips etc that colleagues can check (now you can apply for information management jobs or web master jobs)
- volunteer to organize weekly or monthly update meetings for your colleagues (now you can apply for team leader jobs)
Where did this get me? Well, I enjoyed my work a lot more, could negotiate better salary - but I was still in support.
Next I applied for a webmaster job, and got it.
Next I applied for a release manager job, got it
Then I was a project manager
Then I was fed up with IT and working for large corporations.
Now (10 years later) I have my own property development company in Italy and IT is a hobby but my understanding of IT enables me to run a very efficient operation and have one of the most popular website in the sector. I use my languages to manage sales agents across Europe and the US.
If you cannot do the above at your current job, change job. If you work for a small company, apply for a big company. If you work for a large one apply for a small one. If you work in a company that has support as a core business move to one where it is not. In all cases you bring a valuable and different experience to the new company which could create opportunity.
Don't underestimate your current function, be proud of it. It is not important what you do, but how you do it. I have washed dishes for a living in a country where I did not speak the language. When I left I got a thank you cheque with a card that said I was the best dishwasher ever. I am proud of that. Technical support is an important role in a company as it is a way to manage the perception and a chance to make a difference from the competition. Any company can make and sell a product, the good ones solve the inevitable problems to the customer's satisfaction. A good understanding of what can be done to improve your department will lead to a better job. My feeling is that you are also looking down on your support job. Don't be apologetic about it. You can make a difference there, and move on.
Summarizing:
1 - have a support job
2 - show some initiative
3 - Profit!
Dennis Onstenk
plain and simple, edit that experience out... you have done projects on the side during this time? Does that not make you and independent contractor for that work... Do some more contract work on the side... and drop the call center from your resume.
I hope you don't mind if I added you to my growing listing of recent graduates who can not find a job. You are the second person I have added just today. The dice discussion boards are filled with people in the same situation, here is a brief listing:
http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary
Can you believe that corporate CEOs has the gall to sit before congress and claim that there are sever shortages of US IT workers? The pop-media is flooded with articles about how IT jobs are recession proof, and the US IT field is red hot and growing faster than ever.
Would should employers hire US IT workers, when offshore labor is cheaper? Both candidates are strong supporters of allowing more guest workers.
I worked for teleperformance for 3 months. I worked tier 2 or 3 or some fucked up level of technical support. In this state there are 2 pieces of experience that disqualify you from getting a better job in IT or anything. And thats working tech support and geek squad. I worked there for 3 months and then quit because I knew that wasn't any computer related experience I could use for anything, my next job was delivering pizzas. Then I got hired to work help desk and from there in a company of 400 employees I was given the opportunity to show that I can do more than just read a script(help desks dont have any).
So you may have to find a different shitty IT job as an inlet to the real world. and why the fuck would you work in tech support for 2 years, honestly anyone who would do it for that long either hasn't seen the revolving door or doesn't really have the motivation to get a real job.
make up some cock and bullshit story about your last job...!
If you need experience then you need experience not money. Go work on some open source project, volunteer for some non-profit
yeah, and in the mean time you can just live in a cardboard box and eat dog-food...
I have to respond. I have been in the "tech support" field for 5 years (basically since graduation) and before that had a BS in the sciences. I can say that the opportunities I have had at growing skills in IT, building customer relationship expertise, and learning the various paths within this sector were all there for me from day 1. I know a lot of people are stuck in the "call center" and gross generalizations are made with regard to how tech support=mindless call centers. But F* those guys! If you have actually worked a tech support job, you know that you matter day in and day out. I would argue that the same way a teacher in this country gets bent over when they should be hoisted up; so too goes the tech support agent. Without a willing, capable and agile force that can speak both human and machine (NOT EASY!) most companies wallow and do not perform like they truly can. This is coming from a person who started as a temp, worked up to a "tech support" position, moved into management and is now completing a MA in a related education position...all thanks to the opportunities provided by the lowly tech support role.
This is not exactly the same, but here's my story.
After school I started out doing tech support for 2 years (I stupidly did not do any internships). From the beginning, I made my goals clear - I wanted to become a software developer. They held an R&D carrot out in front due to my CS degree, but at the time I just figured that the job was a short term arrangement.
Because of turnover, there was an immediate opportunity for becoming a Tier II engineer after 3 months. Even though it only meant a $1 an hour raise, I took it.
Between the 3 month mark and a year, I was providing senior support, writing relevant Python scripts in my free time, initiating an internal documentation project, and keeping the VP of Engineering aware of what I was doing.
At 1 year I was promised a coveted spot in R&D as a developer. Unfortunately this is where turnover bites you in the ass - I spent a year waiting for the transition to complete.
I spent about half a year in R&D before I moved on to my next job as a Software Engineer. The last promotion to R&D was the spring board I needed. It was a HUGE confidence boost - I didn't feel like I was a fraud when interviewing for other positions. I landed my next job on my third try.
When I do interviews, tech support experience is an instant plus. But it's more important to show that you exhibited some initiative or ability to grow in your position.
Since you were a student when you were working in support, you will probably have to write it off as not being the type of "internship" experience that the bigger companies are looking for. Try to target smaller companies. You will have to lower your salary expectations and focus on just getting your foot in the door for your industry. After a year or two of working, your academic experience becomes less important.
If you want to get a foot in the door and eventualy become a developer, then start out as a software tester. Testers are known by the developers and PMs in charge of development. Support personnel, otoh, aren't generally known outside of their cubbies.
I did testing and support for over ten years, starting in the days of Windows 3.1. Back then (which really wasn't that long ago), you couldn't fake kills. There were very few databases of questions and answers, and you had to not only know Windows, you had to know DOS. You'd be surprised at how many applicants got shut out because they didn't know how to edit a config file via the DOS prompt. And that was a good thing, because the people that actually got the jobs were a lot more likely to know how to trouble shoot computers, operating systems and hardware. From my point of view, the worst thing that ever happened to tech support was Windows 95. Suddenly, anyone who could read a script out of an Access database was a Windows expert. If they ran into a problem that they couldn't find in the database, they'd have you format your machine.
It seems that your biggest issue is not knowing what you're doing -- your biggest issue is that you're not on the correct job tract. Get into testing if you want to start a dev career. Hell, even being a web designer/developer is a better choice than support.
Support -> Tech lead -> Management (which is non-tech)
Testing -> Junior dev -> Dev
I completely agree.
A small company that I was employed with for about 8 years doing web & software development, we made it a point to find students that were taking any sort of "geek" class, especially those in the helpdesk. When we (I) interviewed them, I looked for a couple of important qualities:
* Real world experience (building perl scripts to handle problems/automate stuff, etc)
* Actually wrote a script outside of school (see above)
* Good grasp of the Internet and its fundamentals (i.e. they know what a form is & the difference between frontend vs. backend systems)
* Did NOT LIE about their experience or lack thereof
* Weren't afraid to say "I don't know"
That last one is very important. Whenever I encountered somebody that fluffed their resume by saying things like "CMS Experience" which was directly tied into a terribly laid-out web page on MySpace, I'd pretty quickly red-flag that person. Now that I'm a contractor, I've found that people actually respect me more when I admit to not knowing something. Nobody likes to work with somebody that knows everything--especially when they don't know what they're talking about.
Sanity is like a condom: rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
As easy as that. Walk in as a no experience college grad.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
The last time I wore a suit was for my first job interview (many moons ago).
After that I always wore whatever I felt like on the day. All the companies that hired me were good ones, from any objective point of view you want to consider, of the ones that didn't, several had gone out of business, including some ass hats in the recent financial crush (I went to interviews for banks, a very conservative bunch, wearing jeans and polo T-shirts, some of the ones buying or bailing out others during the current financial mess hired me, some others, that have collapsed in recent weeks didn't. Draw your own conclusions).
I am not saying there is a direct relationship on this, but it is just my experience that people not paying attention to what will make their company objectively better are wasting their time paying attention to trivial stuff. Like dress codes.
Hygiene is of course OK to check, if by that you mean disgusting types that stink, otherwise I really don't know how you can possibly check that.
As for responses to canned questions, I fail to see how you can get anything but canned answers. If you expect me to say something insightful to the dreadful "where do you expect to be in 5 years time?" then you will be wasting both of us' time.
Interviewing skills are something terribly overrated, and no wonder, since they are sold by the snake oil paddlers of the most inexact of sciences: human relationships.
Iron your clothes for the interview (jeans may be perfectly fine for it, actually it would be best if you want to find out if the company is paying attention to the right things) and be truthful.
After that the bets are off since there is no way "interview skills" can prepare you for the myriad of different people you may find interviewing you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
My first move from tech-support to "real programming" was through a friend I'd met in school, so maybe I'm just lucky that way, but I have a few possible suggestions as to why you're experiencing that you're experiencing.
First, it's possible that you're looking for jobs that are over your head. If the posting says you need 3-5 years experience, most companies are not going to take your cute little web projects as counting for that. They're not rejecting you because of your techie background, so much as for your lack of programming background. This may not be a problem for you at all, but if you start looking at the lower-end, very junior, worst paying positions, that's where you start when you're fresh out of college (and it gets better.)
Second, good companies will hire good coders even if they are fresh out of college. Expect a starter salary, but every well-run techie company has an engineering leadership that recognizes programming chops are something you have or you don't, and it doesn't necessarily correlate to experience.
My suggestion to you would be to get in touch with your friends who recently graduated and find where they're working, or if any of them have had more luck. You may also do well with a recruiter -- not a big recruiting house, but a smaller, local recruiter. These often have more positions than they have bodies, and as such they'll be a little more understanding / creative when selling you to their clients. (A caveat: in my experience, most companies that use outside recruiters are poorly run. That should be okay as your first job or two you're looking for a year or two experience, not a 30-year career.)
The requested URL
Did NOT LIE about their experience or lack thereof
In what way is not listing a particular job a lie?
I never heard that a resume was supposed to list every job you ever had. Should I put "paperboy" on there, too?
The rest is worth knowing, and does kind of say something about the general quality of applicants.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I've been in tech for almost 16 years now, and I got my start in field technical support (read "as a remote screwdriver"--okay, I knew a bit more than that, but it characterizes the nature of the work). Since then, I've moved through a variety of positions, parleying the very skills I picked up in technical support into other jobs with greater responsibility. I did not have a degree when I started in the field, but picked one up along the way. My experience was such that, when my instructor moved on from his position, he recommended that the school track me down to see if I would be willing to teach. Since then, I've both held down my day job as a technologist and have taught computer and network administration skills part time. Your quandry is one faced by many of my students--I teach adult learners, many of whom are often attempting to switch careers--and one I try to address head-on when talking to them about IT careers in general.
Help desk jobs are the gateway for entrance into the IT field for many, especially those without a programming background. I've seen many students successfully make the jump from technical support to other areas of expertise and responsibility, and I've also seen students successfully parley carreers in retail, financial services, and manufacturing into their first IT gigs, both once their degrees were completed and (for some) even while yet enrolled in the program. While some employers may have a bias against folks with a tech support background, I still believe it is possible to leverage your experiences in ways that will bolster your chances. Your initial communications with a company are key.
From reading your submission, it is clear that you can communicate well in written form, so I'll assume that you have no technical difficulties crafting a good cover letter or resume. You do have multiple resumes, do you not?
You see, one of the keys I try to impress on all of my students is that they need to match their submissions (cover letter and resume) to the needs of the company. Not only do they need to address (some or most of) the specific skills that the job posting includes, but they need to make it clear that their current knowledge and experience--from whatever background--will clearly help the company in fulfilling its need. Without knowing more about your situation (you may email me, if you like), I can't speak specifically to your situation, but I can provide you with some general ideas. What have you learned in tech support that either reinforced what you learned about computer engineering, or made you change your assumptions about computer engineering? These lessons may include lessons on functioning well in a team, knowing when it's time to deviate from company policy (to resolve pressing production issues), or how to work an informal network to get things done. Your real-world experience may have taught you that real-world best practices are often far different from textbook best practices (e.g., in the NT 3/4 days it was said that you could host something like 32k users on a single domain controller but no one in their right mind would ever do that in a production environment). Has your tech support experence taught you anything about the importance of gathering meaningful user requirements? Have you ever fielded calls from users who were trying to use systems that don't do what the users need them to do? Have you supported systems that do everything that the users may ever need (and more!), but the users can't seem to find their way through to those features? [Since you did not indicate if you are more on the electrical engineering or software design sides of computer engineering, I can't provide illustrations for your precise scenari
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
The most common mistake made in interviews is to let the interviewer convince you, that you are the one being interviewed. Ever since I was taught to turn the interview around on them, and be the one asking the questions I have yet to go to an interview where I was not later offered the position.
And this has been another installament of Captain Obvious!
A degree in CS means nothing and nobody is impressed with a school project that prints "hello world" on a monitor.
It isn't your current job, it's your attitude to that job. You are getting interviews, so you look good to prospective employers "on paper". In other words, they don't think that serving 2 years as first-tier tech support monkey is a turn-off. However, I bet that when you talk to them about what you have done in those 2 years, you make it clear that the job is boring, lacks challenge, and is taking you nowhere. What would you think about a person who puts up with a job like that for 2 years? Would you think he is likely to be excited about the job you are offering, once he gets it?
The problem with hiring fresh college grads is that they have absolutely no track record: there is nothing you can judge them on, except how good they look in a suit. If that is who you are competing against, then you have a potential advantage: you have a track record. However, that record must be a good one, or it works against you and not for you.
When you interview, tell them how exciting your job is. Make it sound as though you are really reluctant to leave; in fact, you love your job. You like to help people, to explain things to them, to solve their problems. You like learning about all the technical stuff that you are supporting. Come prepared with at least three anecdotes where you were a stellar success in your present job. Think of three people you helped, and tell the story. Think of improvements you made that won praise from your boss and co-workers. Dress it up. You can't overdo this part: your job has been wonderful; you have learned tons of stuff and accomplished miracles. Oh, and you like and respect your boss.
I guarantee that if you follow this advice, you will have a job within the next 3-4 interviews.
Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
Interviews and pre-interview phone conversations are not primarily about job competency. They are about assessing whether you are likable/annoying/properly socialized/have decent hygiene/are a good fit for the company/have a good work attitude/can behave in a way that shows you know your place in a hierarchy/don't eat with your mouth open/demonstrate basic politeness.
Some of these are fantastic reasons not to hire someone - you don't want to be responsible for hiring the guy everyone will spend the next 5 years hating, desperate for an excuse to rid the office of them - and some are absurd, but none of them will ever be given as a reason when asked why a candidate wasn't offered a job.
I know when I hire people, I'm much more concerned with their attitudes about work, which tend to be pretty fixed by adulthood, than I am with their specific knowledge and experience, which can be gained easily. I run an IT consultancy and I expect my employees to take my clients' problems VERY seriously. I expect staff to be operators who'll get the work done, then worry about their personal leisure. Any indication that I'll have to deal with a complainer or someone grating and I'm not going to take the risk.
You claim that your applications are well-written, but that just means that you think you worked hard on them. None of us can be objective in these matters. I've seen plenty of crap resumes and cover letters that applicants undoubtedly worked very hard on. Doesn't matter. As long as they are basically polite and avoid signs of illiteracy, that portion of applying for a job is done in seconds.
All we know about you is that you're a person who posted on /. complaining about perceived unfairness in hiring. Is it possible that an interviewer picked up on this tendency toward public complaint?
Perhaps when asked about your tech support experience, you responded in a way that showed the job or employer in a very negative light. Even if it is true, "My last job sucked because the guy running the company is an idiot, but that's okay 'cause it was a stupid job anyway" doesn't recommend any applicant.
Maybe it's because - in general, not necessarily your actual case - any expertise greater than basic literacy will get most people promoted to 2nd or 3rd tier support positions very quickly. Interviewers may have assumed that failure to be promoted at a call center in two years indicated a "this is just a short-term job, so I won't work very hard at it" attitude.
These are exactly the applicant traits that phone calls and interviews exist to weed out. Problem employees (even great, hardworking, likable people who just aren't right for the atmosphere of a particular company) can have large ripple effects which disrupt an organization. It is the job of any employment gatekeeper to prevent that. Better to risk missing a great hire (there are always more!) than being stuck with a bad one.
No you work if you need to wherever you can just like those people who work two jobs while in college to pay for it do. IF you didn't need to work those two jobs in college then you evidently have some form of income possibilities (parents, etc.) to fall back on (and again why weren't you getting experience in college if you had that much free time?). Life isn't all easy 9-to-5 work and if you can't deal with it then in the end it's your fault. My 50+ year old mother was able to do as much so I'm pretty sure anyone else can as well if they actually put the effort into it.
I'm not necessarily a proponent of lying to get jobs, though I've seen plenty of people such as yourself give up their moral ground in frustration and go for the capitalistic jugular. Perhaps simply omitting the professional experience and going with the recent college grad thing would work instead.
While it's probably an interview issue, don't overdo it or overstress about it either. It'll take a certain level of comfort with not only the source material but the interviewers as well. Also, learn from your mistakes in previous interviews. Depending on your specialty you'll come across many repeat questions. Try to recall the ones you botch in one interview, study up on those so you'll be ready if they come up at another interview.
You should also be prepared for the worst. If you don't know something, be honest about it. If you're not 100% sure about something, take a good guess but be honest that you're not 100% about it. Your ability to gauge your own abilities and your character are determined by how you overcome your shortcomings.
Finally, you'll probably have the most luck starting with a startup. It'll get your foot in the door. My first gig was a startup, and when that gig ended ended, I got into an established company with very little effort. I had no luck whatsoever before the startup.
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
It's the same with acting. Tech people get "type cast". Take me for instance. I have a degree in Computer Science, I have worked on numerous research projects dealing with hard core programming.
Job wise, however, back in 1999 I took a job as a systems developer for a web company. I did backend systems for crappy dot com wannabe businesses. Now I've got the stigma of "web developer" on me. No matter how hard I try, I cannot get recruiters, employers, or even colleagues to see me as much else.
I hate the web. I hate working on the web. All web apps are just glorified database queries.
This is not what I went to school for. However, slow starvation doesn't appeal to me either.
So suck it up. You have no way out. Ultimately, every one of is us a bundle of pain racing toward oblivion anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
List tech support under Skills rather than Professional Experience :)
Functional resume - if you feel like you have to show some work experience, then list companies at the end of the resume. I've done this to successfully target alternative fields (side steps, not so much complete field shifts). But if you are getting to the interview, your resume did it's job. Work on the interview and expressing your qualifications in person.
You should have applied for internship at major software company. This is a great way to get your foot in the door and prove yourself.
Can you let us in on where you got your Computer Engineering degree from? It wasn't one of those techincal institutes - was it?
If you haven't gotten your level 1 job figured out in about a month that isn't saying much. I've been working level 1 with a csci degree while in school for about 8 weeks now and they had me training new employees at about the 6th week.
Do you really want to work on a development team that doesn't see at least *some* Tech Support experience as useful? I know I wouldn't. It's very easy to see why some clients are successful and some are not after you've support a few that perform the same function.
I went from tech support to test engineer - one possible route out. Fortunately for me, I went to a company writing JVM's and so the testing was literally full on development work - made it much easier to get in as a full time developer after that. Though I was almost branded with being a tester for the rest of my days. Admittedly, I de-emphasised the "test" from my "test engineer" job title and it made a big difference with employment agents who only read headlines.
It may be different due to geographical cultural differences, but if I were interviewing someone who left a two year gap in their employment history, I'd wonder what's up and very strongly suspect they were fired and that they didn't want us to call their former employer.
Apparently it's cultural. Here you'd just assume that the writer of the résumé decided that it wasn't worthy of mentioning.
(Because the work didn't illustrate any skill useful for today's interview).
Nonetheless you would probably ask the during the interview (just to be sure that hole is "...was doing something else" not "...was slacking the whole day in my parent's basement".
I think that this difference is linked to the fact that in the US it's customary for the *future employer* to call past employer about some candidate.
Whereas in EU it's most usual for the *employee* to ask his past employer to write a recommendation letter for future job interview.
Thus in the US a list of past employer is most important to have referee to call.
In the EU it's just a way to show the past skills that you think relevant (the reference will come as separate recommendation letter).
In any case, I didn't encourage *lying about* nor *hiding* what he did. Just saying that there isn't necessary a need to absolutely put it on the front.
Answer the question if asked, but don't insist inside the cover letter.
In fact, as this is technically a feeding-"earn few bucks to put a dinner on my table during my studies"-job that just got prolonged it's not necessarily relevant to the skills, indeed.
The candidate could very well have been flipping burgers during his studies, and still doing it until finding a real job in his field.
Only a moron could consider the job having any remote relevance to the job applied for. (Beside the obvious : "the candidate kept the job for several years at the same place, thus isn't probably a psychotic who might kill the co-workers")
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
This is because the employers fear that it means you're not putting work/school history down because you were fired and don't want you to contact that place as a reference or that they failed out of the school they were attending.
Here in Europe it's the other way around :
the interviewer don't call the old work place.
Instead, the old employer write recommendation letters to the new place.
Thus a list of past jobs on the CV is only a way to put emphasis on what skill you have developed that are relevant to the job applied for.
Having been a dick in the past just means that past job-employer or studies' internship supervisor won't give out any recommendation letter.
Be a dick too much and you won't be able to get the required minimum necessary recommendation letters (between 2 to 4 depending on the job offer).
Others will want explanations on the 1st interview and not call you back if your explanation was not to their liking.
I wasn't advcating lying or hidding past activities. Just not putting emphasis on them.
Interviewer want to know what you've been doing in that period ?
Ok, no problem. As I said above :
- Tell them what the job is.
- Tell them that you didn't think that job being worthy mentioning when applying to the current position (which in fact depends much more on skills acquired during the CS studies).
- Tell them that people tend to misinterpret and make assumption on your skill given that job description.
- Illustrate some skill that you acquired that differentiate you from the average support-line drool-done.
They should be free to ask the boss for information, but they shouldn't expect to learn any critical information relevant about required skill to the new job.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
To answer your main question "if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence." - Yes, absolutely there are many ways to get past this. Firstly, I'm going to hit you with the bad news no one at your university told you: Employers are looking for work experience to prove you are capable, not a degree. You'll be hard pressed to find a job that will jump you into a position you're not ready for even with a great degree. Your degree is just an entry hurdle showing you're motivated to do the work ahead of you. Let that settle for a moment. Now, back to answering your question... This is also going to be hard to swallow but you're going to need to stay in tech support for a little while longer. An employer wants to see growth, not just potential. Let me put it to you this way, your two years in tech support is great, but what have you done to demonstrate you're ready for new challenges? Some side projects are great, but those only complement actual experience. It's easy to discount you in an interview because you've stayed in tech support for so long without moving forward. My advice to you is to take a position at a smaller company whom may pay less but will promote future growth. Seek out a new position in tech support and go at the interview with the attitude that this is a two way interview. Part of an interview is to see if the company is a fit for you as well. Be so bold as to ask about promotions to sysadmin (or other career advancing) positions, explain to them your career goals and seek employment only with those companies that match your chosen career path. Take it from someone who worked in tech support, moved on to system administration, and now holds a real engineering position. You can do it if you're motivated, but you need to show that you can grow within a company and not just stay stagnant in your entry level position. If the company you're working for now won't promote that kind of growth after two years you either really are not ready or it's the wrong company to be working for.