Getting Hired As an Entry-Level Programmer?

An anonymous reader writes "I received a state university degree in Computer Science. After graduation, I immediately took jobs in QA to pay the bills while waiting for other opportunities, which of course turned out to be as naive as it sounds. I've been working QA for several years now and my resume does not show the right kind of work experience for programming. On the whole I'm probably no better as a a candidate than a CS graduate fresh out of college. But all of the job postings out in the real world are looking for people with 2-5 years of programming work experience. How do you build up those first 2 years of experience? What kinds of companies hire programmers with no prior experience?"

Comments

You should have asked this a year before.

[Lord Kano]

Internships are the way to go. A nice internship will give you some job experience. If you've been thinking about going back for your Master's degree, do that. And get an internship.

LK

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Ethanol-fueled]

First, try to move up in your current job while your foot's in the door. Make your ambition known to your co-workers and elbow into other aspects of the job with the blessing of the other departments - this could be something simple like reviewing code on your own time and then offering friendly suggestions at work - but don't step on others' toes and don't come off as a prima donna unless you're VERY good at what you want to do.

Do not ask your boss up front because s/he may be naive and order you not to try anything else(in which case you look for another job). After you schmooze around a bit while keeping your standard affairs in order, approach your supervisor(preferably with "attaboys" and testimonials from other department heads) and tell him/her you want to move up, then you provide evidence of your qualification. They LOVE to see how much money you can save them. If they're skeptical then offer to negotiate(i.e. work half of your day in QA, half in development or alternately ask for a 1-month "contract" to work for another department for the chance to prove your mettle). If the PHB says no and dosent offer you a raise to stay(heh, you may be so valuable in QA that they wouldnt move you no matter what your skills are) then look for another job.

If you interview for another job then emphasize the reason why you're leaving - you're capable of more, tell 'em why, and you want to move up. Stress that you have the skillsets to be capable of learning what you do not know. Ambition looks good and even though QA isnt the greatest job, it shows that you're stable and humble enough to stick to a shit job as long as it pays the bills.

Best of luck.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, try to move up in your current job while your foot's in the door. Make your ambition known to your co-workers and elbow into other aspects of the job with the blessing of the other departments - this could be something simple like reviewing code on your own time and then offering friendly suggestions at work - but don't step on others' toes and don't come off as a prima donna unless you're VERY good at what you want to do.

Do not ask your boss up front because s/he may be naive and order you not to try anything else(in which case you look for another job). After you schmooze around a bit while keeping your standard affairs in order, approach your supervisor(preferably with "attaboys" and testimonials from other department heads) and tell him/her you want to move up, then you provide evidence of your qualification. They LOVE to see how much money you can save them. If they're skeptical then offer to negotiate(i.e. work half of your day in QA, half in development or alternately ask for a 1-month "contract" to work for another department for the chance to prove your mettle). If the PHB says no and dosent offer you a raise to stay(heh, you may be so valuable in QA that they wouldnt move you no matter what your skills are) then look for another job.

If you interview for another job then emphasize the reason why you're leaving - you're capable of more, tell 'em why, and you want to move up. Stress that you have the skillsets to be capable of learning what you do not know. Ambition looks good and even though QA isnt the greatest job, it shows that you're stable and humble enough to stick to a shit job as long as it pays the bills.

Best of luck.

I am not sure why you feel QA is a shit job. Try working as an SDET (QA) in comps like Microsoft or Amazon, it is way more difficult than an SDE.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[plover]

A master's degree will certainly help, as will an internship, but those will take time and money to complete.

Is it possible the development team you're working QA for is hiring? Do you have contact with the developers? Have you built a reputation as someone who catches the hard-to-find bugs and documents them well? I know I value a competent tester, and if one of the good ones came to me looking for a way up, I'd be putting in a good word for him with management. Social networking is a good place to find hidden opportunities, and if it's people you've impressed with your skills at work, so much the better.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Ethanol-fueled]

I personally don't feel QA is a shit job, I was just using strong words to improve contrast.

There's nothing wrong with having a stable job which has something to do with your degree.

I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[bishiraver]

A good QA developer is just as necessary as a good developer. We all like writing original code, and it takes a special kind of person to write smoke tests, et al, for someone else's code. At my previous job, our product's QA department was just as important as our development department to get the monthly releases out on time.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

A good QA developer is just as necessary as a good developer. We all like writing original code, and it takes a special kind of person to write smoke tests, et al, for someone else's code. At my previous job, our product's QA department was just as important as our development department to get the monthly releases out on time.

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read. You're not being serious, right?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[wild_fire1979]

I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!

I agree that finding a good programmer job right outta college is tough. But you can always consider working as a contractor to gain experience and then once the skill set is complete, try in comps like MS and all. But I must say the hiring bar is quite high in comps like Amazon and all :( I speak from experience as someone who take interviews people applying as SDETS :)

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

A Master's in computer science to jump in as an entry level programmer? By god you are right! Throw another $20,000 at the problem! That will do it!

Seriously, talk to some smaller programming companies around and look for something that you can squeeze into. See if you can participate on some joint pro bono work and add it to your resume. All potential employers want to see is some actual skill and not a useless piece of paper that you acquired during four years of partying.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Mad Merlin]

Interships are probably a good option. I did a CS degree with Co-op (four 4 month work terms integrated with regular classes, but the degree only takes 1 extra semester, as you don't get summers off), and I had no trouble at all finding a job after graduating (above entry level even, or at least well above entry level pay scale). For me, the already existing relevant job experience was pretty valuable.

Though, job experience isn't the end of the story, if you don't have job experience, you can still work on related stuff in your spare time. When I was applying for my one of my Co-op positions, I was able to show off Game! as something substantial that'd I'd already done, and that pretty much clinched the job offer. Game! wasn't something I created with the intention of putting on my resume, I just wanted to make a game, but it certainly turned out pretty well.

So, code something you like in your spare time. If there's nothing that interests you that you want to develop, perhaps a programming job isn't actually what you want to be doing.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[wild_fire1979]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

I assure you that I work with some of the best devs that are in the market right now. They are really good, but when you have to deal with millions of lines of code across a extremely complex system, bugs happen!!! :) Unit testing, code coverage tools, continuous build systems can just mitigate the effect not eliminate bugs. Even QAs just make sure that the quality is within acceptable parameters they can't eliminate them completely.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[weicco]

First, try to move up in your current job while your foot's in the door.

Three years is the limit. If after three years you haven't managed to get raise or promotion apply for another job. Especially if your professional expertise is falling behind or soon you won't be able to get a job at all...

Now if you manage to get a better job with better salary ... well, that's great for you! But remember that expectations rise and you need to show that you are worth it. It can be stressful compared to your old job.

But if you can't get another job then there's some serious consideration to do. Maybe you are not that great worker after all?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[whoever57]

Stress that you have the skillsets to be capable of learning what you do not know.

IMHO, letting an interviewer think that you have to learn anything in order to do the job is the kiss of death for any interview.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Cynonamous Anoward]

Are you a professor? or do you work in theoretical software practices? Have you EVER worked on commercial software? I work for a certain media co., on a certain well known video player. There are so many things that simply cannot be tested except by a human. Management is always begging QA and engineering to try and come up with ways to automate testing of these things, but no one ever gets anywhere.

How can code analysis ever verify:

* YUV->RGB color conversion (there isn't even a single right answer to this, it's subjective)

* A/V Sync

* Audio language selection (how do you write code to tell if the guy is speaking in french as opposed to spanish?)

* GUI Widget alignment

* Subtitle Placement

The list goes on and on. Some of these things do have unit tests, but bugs pop up anyway, bugs which never could have been caught by any unit test. Some parts of our code lend themselves to unit tests (file parsers) and those sections are heavily tested. Other sections simply don't offer the opportunity for analyzing the results via code. All-in-all, a major update to the player can require over two months of QA by a team of 8 testers. This is in addition to the thorough unit tests you claim _should_ take care of all that.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Internships are great for students and every student in every field should do one.

However if you have several years of work experience in QA, you can't just drop out and do an internship. (Assuming you could even find one.) 99% of people reading resumes will translate that as "unemployed".

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[kaka.mala.vachva]

Mod parent up. A Masters is the cleanest way out - rather than spending 2 years again building up dev experience, do a Masters. The GRE isn't tough, a couple of months hard work should land you a good enough score and ensure that you get funding in at least one university.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[MrMarket]

You don't have to be a student to get an internship. Save the $100K and offer to be an intern for one of your target companies.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[twoallbeefpatties]

And it's worth noting that many internships can turn permanent once you get out of school. "Oh, so, your internship is over. It's been nice having you. Hey, Steve, could you go put a new posting up for an intern on the website. Oh, by the way, also put up a listing for that second-rank programmer that needs a year's experience and preferably knows something about the kind of systems we use. Gee, where are we gonna find someone like that-- Oh, hey!"

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[YttriumOxide]

I actually agree with you, but want to play devil's advocate to your examples here... Hopefully to improve whatever your well known media player is (I use VLC exclusively these days, but I'm always open to alternatives if something better comes along)

* YUV->RGB color conversion (there isn't even a single right answer to this, it's subjective)

Which is why it should be a user option... give the user advanced controls over this and they'll love you forever. Just find one nice default and leave it at that for the less savvy users - this is simple enough for the developer to do without needing someone in QA to do it.

* A/V Sync

I'll grant this one.

* Audio language selection (how do you write code to tell if the guy is speaking in french as opposed to spanish?)

Again, simple enough for the developer to do without needing someone in QA

* GUI Widget alignment

Make your app skinnable. You'll never please everyone otherwise. For the "default" skin, just keep it DEAD simple and follow standard practices on your OS for layout (I'm thinking, as an example, Visual Studio's "snap to place" placement stuff)

* Subtitle Placement

Again, should be a user option. What I would like to see in this realm though is something clever enough to recognise text on the movie I'm watching and avoid placing the subtitle over it. This, I'm sure, would be extremely tricky, but VERY cool.

My comments referring to "simple enough for the developer to do" also relates to the kind of project you're talking about here. When the dev goes home from a hard day at work and wants to put a movie on, he'll probably fire up the media player that he's been working on. Nothing makes for a real world test like an actual real world test!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[YttriumOxide]

Depends on the job.

We're currently hiring (if you trawl through much older posts of mine, you'll probably find details, but I won't repeat them since we already had enough applicants from Slashdot! (and may well take one...)), and I really don't expect the potential hire to know everything they need to for the job. One of the reasons for this is that the main thing they need to know is our own proprietary API, so what we're looking for is a person that is going to be able to pick it up quickly, and can demonstrate this from their background. One guy who applied (from Slashdot) sent me some sample code he wrote for example (in the language we're looking for), and explained the various concepts involved in his program. That's much more valuable from our side.

Now, if someone were to come along who magically already knew our API, of course we'd have to pretty seriously consider them, but really, an API is just an API - anyone can learn it if they're even half decent coders. Knowing how to write good (as in, working, bug-free, fast, flexible and extensible) code in general is still the most important thing.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[networkBoy]

For the "default" skin, just keep it DEAD simple

And yet, even that needs to be tested.

I work on firmware and one of our biggest challenges is that there are soooo many seperate systems that have to come together that even though the devs unit test their code to death (and for the most part it works), once you start integrating stuff, things break. You have the kernal, then apps running on it, then the end user interface software. All this simply must work. The only way to get there is to test it.
5000 hours of tests, and yet we still had escapes :(
As to the submitter:
Ask how you can get involved with writing software to help your group. Even if it's "programming" a smarter excel sheet to collect data, or a perl parser with GD to plot results automatically from logfiles, just find an unfilled itch in your group and scratch it. If it's hardware QA, see if you can work on programming your instrumentation drivers/data collection/etc.
While I genuinely realize what I'm going to say is not true everywhere, many bosses are open to employee development, especially if it helps their group out. Tell your boss you'd like to grow your skills and want to stay in the group. Ask where you could pick up a small extra project. Be proactive and *look* proactive. Most managers want smart employees, just not smart asses. Single most important advice: be humble. A close second? Don;t piss in anyone's cornflakes/eat from their ricebowl (especially if they are territorial).

Finally: Good luck.
-nB

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[rfc1394]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

If you really believe this, please tell me what company you work for, I want to short their stock for when the company's poor quality and shlock coded applications cause it to go bankrupt!
(Only partially kidding)
And you spelled "bug resistant" worng. :) (Yes, I know that's 'wrong' but one of the rules of the Internet is that spelling flames must invariably have a mistake in them!)

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[SL Baur]

I agree with the subject.

Your best bet is get working on an Open Source project that interests you. Documentation as well as coding will help as both will get your name into search engines (and google.com is not necessarily the most important one). The skills you learn will make you a better programmer while honing your skills. Writing new code is somewhat important, but the majority of your time will be spent maintaining code and being able to diagnose and fix bugs is by far the best way to ensure job security. It's a dirty job and if you have an insightful manager (and if you are in a profitable company with long-term prospects, one of them will be) it will be appreciated.

<hat="Professional">Guys like me spend a lot of time getting paid good money to clean up after hit & run programmers who come in, hack some crap together and leave.</hat>

<hat="Mr. XEmacs, Open Source guy">Guys like me also wrote more than one letter of recommendation to kids starting out after college who had contributed to XEmacs.</hat>

The bonus is that if your target company is using the software you worked on, your name may already be in their internal web search engine database when you're applying there.

My name appears more often in the internal corporate search engine on a search of my name with hits on the Gnus 5 FAQ, of which I wrote the original version over a decade ago, than for anything else and I've been working there almost 2 years now (on very high visibility projects). Nothing beats that for a reference.

Oh and thanks to Microsoft, bug triage has become more valuable over time because people expect stuff to be broken and you are even more respected when you fix it.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Doogie5526]

Which is why it should be a user option... give the user advanced controls over this and they'll love you forever. Just find one nice default and leave it at that for the less savvy users - this is simple enough for the developer to do without needing someone in QA to do it.

This sounds like more work (QA with optionX on, QA with optionX off, evaluate if optionX does what it's supposed to do)

Make your app skinnable. You'll never please everyone otherwise. For the "default" skin, just keep it DEAD simple and follow standard practices on your OS for layout (I'm thinking, as an example, Visual Studio's "snap to place" placement stuff)

Now this sounds like a whole lot more work. I agree with a dead simple, standard practices, default skin, but I HATE this obsession that each and every tool needs to be completely skinnable. Why the heck would anyone want each an every app to look and work completely inconsistently? 99% of the themes are junk and most have the same layout of the original app, just different colors. I don't know how or why, but many have backgrounds/text that make the most important parts of the app hard to distinguish from the rest of the app. There are very few skins that are decent out of the many sea of horrible ones. I can't think of any instance where I preferred it over the default (since the default skin is what the whole app was designed around), and I've tried themes for winamp, gtk, kde, windowblinds(xp), wmp, firefox, and probably 20 more applications that don't need it.

They would still need to QA to see if widget and placement were working. In addition to writing this theaming engine.

* Subtitle Placement

Again, should be a user option.

From what I understand that information is usually encoded in the original track. So they're just testing if the video player is positioning properly.

You make it sound like they wouldn't have to write or test the code that does these things. In practice it causes way more testing and limitations when refactoring code.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't have the slightest idea of software development. I work for a company which has the brightest minds in engineering, but the Engineering to QA ratio is 1:1. BTW, I am in Engineering.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Ibn al-Hazardous]

Top Cod3r? Is that you?

Get back to TDWTF - we're already missing you your tasty flamebaits... ;)

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been a QA person in the past and now I do some amount of development in addition to some research work, so I have some idea of what you're facing.

My suggestions:

Find a sympathetic programmer that writes code that you are testing for. Ask him/her to show you how to set up a development and debugging environment that you can test against.

In particular, if you discover an intermittent bug, then find out how to set up a debug version of the environment to trap the bug as it is occurring. (That saves the programmer a lot of time trying to reproduce the bug.) Learning an IDE and/or how to debug and/or how to use a source code control system is a big step.

Also, approach somebody about writing test code against the production code, i.e. "unit tests", "white box" testing. That helps you learn the API.

Try to sit in on "Code Reviews" if your group does such things.

Start reading as much source code as you can. You learn a lot from reading other people's code. In addition, you can sometimes spot errors in the source. The sooner a bug is found and fixed, the better off you are.

Once you can start suggesting fixes to the errors you find, then you've demonstrated that you have developer skills in addition to being a good QA person. That combination is great, because you could become a developer who makes fewer mistakes than average.

Doing all this shows initiative which is also a big plus.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Lardmonster]

> Is it possible the development team you're working QA for is hiring?

That's probably the best suggestion in this thread.

On the other hand, if you're really passionate about being a programmer, then you'll already be doing it. Scratching that itch. And, if you're reading Slashdot, chances are you're a geek and an open source fan. So your code, your reputation, will already be out there - just a google-search away.

So capitalize on that reputation!

Example: if you have a burning urge to work in embedded development and are passionate about music, then contribute patches to Rockbox or something similar. Then, when you apply for your ideal job in a similar domain, you can show that (1) you're passionate about that domain and (2) can prove that you can produce quality code.

Actions speak louder than words :) Good luck!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[nvatvani]

I feel that is a bad idea because an Internship implies that the inexperienced individual will be a slave of authority and incapable of setting his own direction of specialisation.

My advice instead is to keep your QA job, but be inflexible with it. By inflexible I mean you walk in the office and 8am, and then shoot out at 5pm - regardless of the circumstance. Ofcourse you must exercise your own judgement if you need to break this rule assuming a deadline is looming. But if you break this rule more than 20% of the time (more than once in every 5 working days) - you have lost your objective.

The reason for the very inflexible hours is so that you can shoot home and spend 2 hours each working day actually working on your programming skills. There are bucket-loads of Open Source projects that require actual people - regardless of your talent or experience. The only condition all projects require is that you are able to learn new things relatively quickly and are good at the new things you are learning - something which should be a breeze given your CS background.

For example - take the Ubuntu project - they actually have a Wiki page for peeps like yourself wanting to get into the game: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[mabhatter654]

I think you hit on one point right there. Companies are only interested in what you do for them right now... if you are "good enough" then why move you someplace else? Of course you'll never be good enough to move up, because you were only good enough for the position you have right now. It's a catch 22 and HR loves it.... You're good enough to do the work, but not good enough to demand the position and pay... that's just right for the company interest and very hard to break.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

>Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

[snicker]

I've worked with both QA and without QA, and while I suppose "top flight developer" is subjective, I'd far rather be working with QA.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[petermgreen]

* YUV->RGB color conversion (there isn't even a single right answer to this, it's subjective)
There is a right answer if you know what definitions or RGB and YUV you are working to. Of course if you are displaying on a random monitor than it will never be right for everyone because of monitor variation so you probablly want to let the videophiles tweak this.

Audio language selection (how do you write code to tell if the guy is speaking in french as opposed to spanish?)
You make sure the different "language" tracks in your test data are different enough that an automated system can recognise them.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[bishiraver]

Not necessarily true.

At a previous job (that I worked at for a year and a half before mergers and so forth required me to take myself elsewhere), I was hired to work on an ASP.net application. I had no ASP experience, and barebones JavaScript knowledge: I was hired as an interface designer. Within six months they were paying for me to take an ASP C# class at the local university. Within a year my JavaScript skills were some of the best on the team.

The interview tested not only my known skills - probing to find out what I did and did not know - it also tested my problem solving skills and my ability to absorb new knowledge and utilize it quickly.

I'm glad they hired me. Not only because it was a fantastic job, but the team I worked with is still one of the best I've worked with. Ever. I learned a lot, and I contributed a lot, and eventually I came around and taught them a few new tricks in a language that doesn't quite work like a lot of other ones. Sometimes it pays to not just test technical skills in an interview - and many times, admitting you don't know something is much less of a kiss of death than attempting to bullshit your way through.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[bishiraver]

You learn a lot from reading other people's code.

I cannot reiterate this enough. So many times I've had to go in and make a small fix for a usability issue, and ended up having to refactor a couple hundred lines of code. Not ditching on the original coders, but shit happens like that. Having to wind your way through sometimes confusing code hones and expands your skills more than most other things.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[bheer]

> Make your app skinnable. You'll never please everyone otherwise.

For most commercial software, you don't have to. You just have to make enough people happy with the way your app looks. Believe it or not, it can be done, e.g.: iTunes, OSX, Office 2007.

The idea of developing a dead-simple default look and letting "the community" come up with a skin mostly never works because the community can't devote as much time to QA (i18n, l10n, accessibility, as is necessary for a top-flight app). Example: Firefox -- they're skinnable, but they spend a lot of time and effort on the default skin because they want the app to look good out of the box. Even Winamp, which once came with a dead simple default skin, these days ships with a fairly elaborate skin (not that I like it, but it shows where the market's headed) that shows off its newer capabilities like album-art, podcasting and ripping.

Interestingly, apps which *do* have dead-simple default looks, like Foobar2000, languish because most users want something that works out of the box.

The point is: if you have skins, fine. But don't think that gives you a free pass on developing a sensible default look, and spending time and money researching what that look should be, and QA'ing the hell out of it.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I knew a VP of Engineering of a certain Internet Advertising company based in Seattle that spewed identical views. Are you this person? He had worked for Microsoft before going into Advertising and had an extra large helping of Dumbass on his plate.

Mico$oft has never released any software with bugs. Or so he tried to make his underlings believe. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[electrictroy]

3 years?

I wouldn't wait that long. At Penn State we have on-campus interviews for college grads. Check to see if your school has something similar, sign-up for the program, and start interviewing. If you "only" have the skills of a college programming major, then it's logical to start your search on campus with the visiting companies.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[DrLang21]

I still have not figured out how people manage to get a B.S. by partying for four years.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the virtue of free (as in Hans Reiser) education.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[weicco]

Well, yes you are right. But I wasn't really thinking from that aspect. I was more along the line that if you do the same stuff year after year you fall from the bleeding edge. Let's take example to clear this out. My english isn't so good that I could explain this clearly :)

I know people who have programmed VB stuff for something like 15 years. One guy has been in the same VB project over 10 years. They are very good VB programmers but they know shit about VB.NET for example. Now when 95% of companies have switched from VB to .NET (VB/C#) or Java where can those guys get new jobs?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[umghhh]

I have this feeling that you may have had something to do with 'faultless software' policy that was introduced in my corporation a while ago. Projects now last in general longer and cost more per kLines of uncommented code than ever before so I guess implementation of this brave principle was very successful and I am sure that the only place where software development process is able to deliver better quality is Kingdom of Zamunda with Somalian developers directly following.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[wdef]

I've been told that good QA and release engineers are very hard to hire. You might well have better advancement prospects in that line of work than in coding per se.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try going for certification as a java programmer (Or VB or whatever other language you'd like). It's easier to get (and cheaper) than a Master's Degree and could even be more relevant to the jobs you are looking for.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[bradley13]

"Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments."

This comment has already gotten nailed, but I'll just add: show me a company that only has "top flight" developers. In my experience, 10% are "top flight", 20% are fine and 70% should go do something else. You may have the good fortune to work for a company with better numbers, but the last number is never zero...

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Rigbyd]

A good QA developer is just as necessary as a good developer. We all like writing original code, and it takes a special kind of person to write smoke tests, et al, for someone else's code. At my previous job, our product's QA department was just as important as our development department to get the monthly releases out on time.

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

Speaking as a software engineer that works for a small software company, QA Engineers are essential. Not because we have sloppy developers who write poor code, but because software engineers can't predict every possible way someone will interact with out code. QA Engineers have proved invaluable in finding those edge conditions we never coded for because it never occurred to us. ... Plus they help catch the *stupid* mistakes that everyone makes from time to time. (-;

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[thetoadwarrior]

This is correct and in some cases testers can get paid more than programmers because ensuring that great code goes out the door is of the utmost importance.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Emb3rz]

I'm the only programmer at my company, you insensitive clod!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[cabazorro]

Can you point me at the site were I can buy some of that "bug resistent" code. And while we are at it, may I interest you on a year supply of "airborne" Immune boosting tablets.
Now, seriously, QA teams are not bug-detector teams. Their expertise focus on pushing the next company flagship product over the limit and back. The ego-centric developer believe that the QA team is giving the "thumbs-up" to them, in reality, they are giving it to the user.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Jane_Dozey]

Agreed. I'm pretty certain that having a project in my spare time and being able to talk about the technologies and design decisions in said project clinched me my current (graduate level) job.

Like you, the project was for fun and to teach me something new. If anything, it shows interest in programming beyond what they taught you on the degree course.

If the OP can't think of anything to code it might not be because of a lack in programming interest but rather a lack of ideas. I know I tend to get a bit disinterested if I can't think of something fun to be doing.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[alexj33]

I agree. I'm going to pass this one around the office. Laughed so hard, I'm still wiping coffee off my screen.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[CodeArtisan]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistant code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

QA != testing. QA begins at project initiation and concerns itself with the processes used to create a product that is fit for purpose.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[certain death]

::SLAP, SLAP:: Wake up man!!! While it is true that there are some really great coders out there, in my job, I normally get to see the seedy underbelly of that world, Doing application security. I suppose you can never squash all the bugs, but for the sake of my sanity, please try harder!!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Lord Kano]

I feel that is a bad idea because an Internship implies that the inexperienced individual will be a slave of authority and incapable of setting his own direction of specialisation.

Depends on what kind of internship he takes or where it is. My Internship was great. I told the interviewer that I was interested in linux administration and software development. BAM! He put me with one of the linux administrators.

If you look around, there is an internship that will meet your criteria.

LK

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[thetoadwarrior]

Maybe in a tiny company but no one has the time to write a huge application and write the tests for it as well.

Being a jack of all trades doesn't work for serious large scale development.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[clam666]

Internships are one way to go, although lying on your resume is a time tested technique.

If they find out you lied, do you really want to work somewhere that actually performs background checks on you?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Chatterton]

That what he said: "the last number is never zero..." :D mouhahahaha

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[SQLGuru]

I've not seen many internships actually give much valuable experience. Half of the teams around here who get interns assigned to them spend most of the time trying to figure out busy work to justify the intern (large company). I know if I'm interviewing, I don't just take "I was an intern at XXX" as valuable -- they need to talk about their projects while an intern.

I would recommend side work for a small company that has little to no I/T department. Look at some of the moonlighting web sites or troll through Craig's List ads that are asking for specific projects (if you write a simple web-based Customer Management suite that you can tailor to individual businesses, you could probably sell 100 copies pretty easily through most moonlighting sites). As part of delivery, ask for referrals. Small companies who didn't realize what I/T could do for them are much more appreciative than being a small cog in a larger company....and sometimes, it leads to repeat business. When you are ready to switch from QA to DEV, you'll have lots of references and example work (portfolio) to back up your resume.

Layne

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[robot_love]

I guess he needed a few more unit tests for his post. Or QA. Whichever.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm thinking that an internship is not the way to go. If you have bills to pay, you need at least some money. Even if it's entry-level money. If you market yourself as an intelligent individual, you should have no trouble transitioning to a development role. Networking is key. Sorry, but having the development manager like you (in a professional way) is probably the best way to make this switch. There are plenty of "entry-level" development jobs out there. Whatever "several years" of QA experience means, I'd say you're qualified for any entry to mid-level programming job. Job descriptions are written for the absolutely perfect candidate. Since they almost never exist, they will accept someone with 2-5 years experience in just about anything computer-related. Just get out there and start applying for jobs. Don't be afraid that you're not qualified.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[JamesP]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

Up until here, I was like, ok... Great!

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

And then I LOL'd!!!

I guess people have this myth about testing, that testing fixes things. And it's quite obvios that testing fixes absolutely nothing!! Zilch, nada, nothing!

And still, tests and a testing department are absolutely priceless. If I learned one thing about companies where the sw development team are not the brightest stars, is: "Have a kick ass testing team"

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[PainKilleR-CE]

I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!

It's not really our parents' faults, as it was true when they went into the job market (more or less), while now having a B.S. is roughly equivalent to what used to be a high school diploma, and in some industries it's even worse.

In the case of CS in particular, this is largely a result of the dot-com bust, as people were hiring kids barely out of high school (or in some cases still in high school) for so long just to fill all of the available positions. Most of the job openings are now long gone, along with most of the companies, and there's a glut of people that have programming experience or degrees, but a much smaller number of people with both.

Generally speaking, you need to ask some questions when you go into interviews, and try to find out if they actually have a career path from QA to development. There are companies that do this, and even companies that don't have this career path clearly laid out may give opportunities to employees to prove themselves before hiring someone new for a non-entry-level position.

In other words, as already stated, talk to the managers that deal with the developers and see if there's something you can do to qualify yourself for possible job openings in their departments. If you're looking for work elsewhere, make it clear that while you may be willing to take a QA job, you would like to move up to a development job, and ask questions about the career options.

If you're patient you'll eventually find the right fit and be able to move on from QA work. Most companies still prefer to promote internally rather than hire new people, because it's easier to fill entry-level jobs opened up by people moving up within the chain, and it improves morale for people to see movement within the company.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Abm0raz]

Moving up in your own company is a shot, but never forget what you can do in your spare time counts. Getting a master's degree is one "spare time" option, but others are Project Coding (such as Elance.com), getting on a fairly large and active Open Source project, or creating your own applications under your own name and putting them out for prospective employers to see.

If you are really serious about getting into a CS development position, I recommend the Open Source route because it will teach you how to code in a group setting and deal with code reviews, QA, and the whole enterprise process.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dbmasters]

haha, my wife and I are having this disagreement when it comes to talking to our kids about career paths...my wife is totally 100% "gotta go to college" and I am not. She went to college, I didn't...she works 10-12 hours a week as an ECFE teacher (her degree is in teaching) I work 40+ making twice as much per hour...so, well, no, I don't think college is a must...I taught myself to program and have done pretty well.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[mzemina]

I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!

I think @kdawson has gotten some good advise. The one thing that he hasn't told us, is what type of of programming he has his heart set on and how the big the company he is currently working for and how profitable the company is. I see several routes that @kdawson can take. (A) Try (as has been suggested) to take on more responsibility, that usually gets managments eye and then you can move on to better projects or be able to ask for specific projects. (B) If the company his is working for is large and he has tried (A) then go looking for a smaller company that he can do more! The smaller the company the more responsibilty (i.e. more coding opportunities). (C) Also as has been suggested - try helping out with an OpenSource project or create your own project/application on the side. Or try to find something that the company you are working for really needs and develop it! (D) Get involved in a development networking group in the town where you live. (E) As has been suggested - ask your school to help out - or go back to school. To @Ethanol-fueled - I disagree. After you graduate it is up to you to make of yourself what you want. If you don't know how, then you ask (like @kdawson is doing here) to get yourself better informed - always weigh the advise you get with good common sense.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!

Maybe you should try blaming yourself for not checking it out thoroughly...

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments.

Er ... it depends on the code.
For your pacemaker, don't you want both top developers and a huge QA department? What about for the avionics on your airplane?

OTOH, good developers hacking together a simple web site following best practices, may not require any QA people. It just isn't that important.

Also, never underestimate the ability of compiler writers to screw things up. This goes for library writers too. Back when I was coding, I found a number of what I considered bugs in Rogue Wave libraries. Fortunately, we had source licenses so I was able to fix them across every platform we supported (about 7) and move on. Introducing bugs isn't just something that the end developer does - Sun, Microsoft, IBM, EMC, Dell, every vendor introduces a few hidden bugs in their code especially when you're trying to write thread-safe code. There's almost always a race condition that wasn't thought about to be found later.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[rukkyg]

I graduated with a Mechanical degree 2 years ago and took a 50k+ job right out of school, and I just moved in to my new 350k+ house. I'm also working as a software engineer now and taking graduate classes online.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dthrall]

Also helpful is to contact a techie contracting agency, just be sure to know what you're worth walking in the door.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[amcgrath]

Another solution would be to join an open source project, or (if it is web-related) create a site. If you can't actually get a job doing what you want, you sohuld at least show that you are interested in the work, regardless of no pay. Just my two cents (and I have hired hundreds of web programmers). amc

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[eno2001]

A burst of truth from the 20th century mind of eno2001:

Times have changed. The myth of the "badass job" and the "bigass house" weren't a complete myth in the mid 20th century. I know people who graduated in the 1950s who just walked out and got a job day one that gave them a very comfortable middle class lifestyle in the suburbs with a nice car or two. A lot of them, later invested when the market was a bit down and then lived off the peaks of the 80s and 90s which raised them up to a higher level of middle class.

In the early 21st century we have these issues creating much larger barriers to "success" (as defined by the typical capitalist/consumer):

1. Much larger population and only slightly more wealth, much of it artificial and very unstable. When the "wealth" disappears due to a bubble bursting, only things of real tangible value count. There's not enough to go around to keep everyone in beer, chips, and game consoles
2. The disease of the middle man. While a middle man can have an actually valuable place in society, there is a limit to the amount of them needed. At the moment, we have too many people trying to siphon money into their pockets between a good or service producer on the way to you, the consumer. As a result, the costs for items are overinflated beyond their actual value, and yet, consumers continue to be convinced by advertising to buy the products. This has a double effect: as a society we spend too much on unnecessary items instead of putting good money where it belongs (in our pockets). And, the workforce is now populated by idiots (the unneeded and value subtracting middle men). Think about all the "developers" that barely know VisualBasic and work for companies that put out niche products that are poorly written and designed...
3. Companies want to run "lean and mean". So where they would have hired you on as a software developer had the field been as widespread in the 1950s (remember the smaller population), they are now keeping their handful of really good developers and spreading them thin. They overwork their existing staff, and underemploy anyone who isn't that hot (shorter hours or just don't hire anyone). This means that it's a LOT harder to get a job in software development if you've never had experience.

There are the VERY VERY ultra-rare people who can leave college, form a start-up based on an idea that just catches on, and market the bejezzus out of their wares until they get someone interested. If they get acquired, they take on some impressive sounding title like CEO, CIO, CTO, or "Chief Imagination Officer" (Yes I've seen that in real life). With any one of those titles, you can pretty much write your own ticket. If you don't get bought up but still run a good business and then leave it behind, you have your "two to five years of experience" and something to show for it. But this is extremely rare. Probably less than 5% of the population can do this and that is likely a gross overestimate. Sadly, there are far too many people in the computer related businesses who believe they are this kind of person. They fall flat on their faces every time. If you have a hard nose, you pick yourself up and try again. Like the fat loser at the bar that asks every woman to come home with him for a screw until one of them, just before 2:00AM and drunk as hell says, "snergf. home. ack. wi. yew. hick"! People like that make up for their lack of talent with their tenacity. Hats off to them. Again... a small segment of the population. The rest of us just do what we can to get by as well as possible with no illusion of ever doing exactly what we want since we don't want to sacrifice a real life to a career. That's why I'm not a faded techno-pop star from the late 80s/early 90s and instead work as a jack of all trades Unix admin who has to touch Cisco routers, Oracle server, a variety of Windows systems, and field specific software of really poor quality.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[ibmjones]

Wow, I never seen so many whooshes all at once in my life.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Duke Nukem development team breaks its silence at long last....

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[hobo sapiens]

I don't think OP said QA was not important. QA is very important.

But QA is a horrid job. QA is at the end of the cycle, so if someone misses a deadline it is QA is who really pays. Where I work, the poor QA people have been working weekends and long days for the last few months to test the piss poor code that a dev team put out late. I feel bad for them. The trouble with doing QA work is that it singularly qualifies a person for doing yet more QA work.

To the person who first asked the question: get out of QA ASAP. Your ticket out of QA may be to stay where you are and show some iniative and document some standards, do code reviews (instead of testing the final product), and so on. Trouble is, will the dev team respect the QA guy who wants to be a developer? They should, but the reality is that you might be regarded as a wannabe. On the other hand, get a new job as a developer. You might take a pay cut, but at least you have relevant experience in an environment where people have an open mind toward working with you. What you should do really depends on your co-workers.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, boy. Have some more Kool-aid.

You obviously don't have a lot of real-world experience, do you?

Code is as good as the humans who write it. Many developers think that their code is tested if they write a unit test for it. Unfortunately, their concepts of what can go wrong is usually um... (ahem) somewhat limited.

If you continue with software development as a career, the real world is about to teach you some remarkably interesting lessons.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[phaggood]

while ( spec_creep > 0 ) {
dev: code code code
qa: nag nag nag
dev: code code code
qa: nag nag nag
dev: code code
qa: brilliant! yay! good job! it's, oh, wait...
nag nag nag.
dev: *sigh*. code code code

}

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

'The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.'

You broke the needle of my naivity meter!

I hope you are either:
- joking
- employed in an area completely unrelated to software development

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Machtyn]

I'm actually in a similar position as you are. I just took what I knew in programming and started creating tools for the team. These tools make the job far easier for my coworkers, and a few of them have spilled into other departments.

This is a small company, so as my tools get around, the developers have noticed it (with a little advertising, of course). Just make sure you advertise to the right people and not the wrong ones (stupid office politics.

My manager was unwilling to allow me to do any programming type work, so I did it on my down time. Now he is fine with letting me create and update the tools we need.

By the way, I like the QA position. It really helps me think about what I'm doing when I write the tools. My tools are usually being released error free (or close to it).

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[cjh79]

Have you ever actually worked in the real world?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Austerity Empowers]

He is, the existence of a QA department is an admission of weakness. As others have said, there's nothing "easy" about QA, it's as hard as design, if you are doing it right. To a large degree, because you should be doing the same job.

I get nervous when there's a dedicated QA role in a company. It tells me that every pigeon has his hole.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how things work in your neck of the woods but working as a contractor with a staffing agency or dare I say "Headhunter" is a great way to get experience. Around the Southeast especially Alabama, there are always companies wanting to hire someone just to do a particular project. That is where the staffing agencies come in, I got my feet wet in the Industry by working several one to two week long projects over the course of a year or so and then I had enough experience to land a "quality job". I hope that helps.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[ElAurian]

Don't worry, you spelled "schlock" worng. :D

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[cayenne8]

"I blame our parents :) for telling us that a college degree will land us a badass job and a big-ass house right out of college when the unfortunate reality is that the fresh mechanical engineering graduate will take their first job as a hinge or pipe designer or that a CS grad will have to code lazy kids' homework assignments for hire!"

Whose parents tell them that?!?!?

I have, recently, been hearing kids coming outta college expecting just what you said tho, and I wonder where they got those ideas...

No...basically these days, you need some college degree to get you started in decent jobs...what years and years ago was what a HS degree was. To get the bigger $$...you either need a higher degree....and/or years of experience. I believe the engineering students still start out at a higher starting salary, but, they do seem to peak out quicker than some other areas from what I've seen/heard.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[suggsjc]

I've been thinking that an interesting job hunt strategy is to play up the fact that a good foundation in basic programming skills is more important than knowing all of the intricate details of a system/language/IDE. Why? Google/the internet. Good programmers will write good code, and with the internet available you can quickly find out "best practices" and generally those transcend languages/systems/IDE's, etc, in fact having a different background *could* be a good thing as it brings new perspectives.

Now all of this depends on actually being a "good programmer" and your ability to sell that fact.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[zip_000]

I'd say internships are immensely valuable in just about any profession. I did two internships and I can guarantee that I wouldn't have been nearly as successful in my job search had it not been for them.

In both of the places that I interned, they did not even actually have intern programs - I just contacted them, explained what I wanted out of the situation and what I could provide while I was there. For the second internship they even ended up paying me!

Internships are just a good way of getting your foot in the door of the profession.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Bardez]

I got a decent job and a house and I'm 2 years out of college...

My route: run around in circles in central Illinois and stumble onto a "small" start-up doing "e-mail marketing" and very quickly climbed up into development.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[mikael]

Small companies will take on people to do the jobs that the existing staff do not want to do. The hazard is that they will so paranoid about you gaining experience and moving on, that they will try and stop you learning the simplest skills; applications, API's or hardware programming.

On the other hand, many corporations expect each division to grow by at least 10% each year, otherwise they dissolve that division and move the staff elsewhere.
This requires automatic promotions each year. "The Peter Principle" is a good guide to
this effect - they refer to this as "pull". It can be a bad thing if you are pulled away from the job you enjoy doing (eg. software programmer) and find yourself spending more time attending board meetings and running between programmers and directors, only to be downsized out of job a year later. But it can be good if you get promoted to somewhere like a software
architect. But then they might just as well be tempted to recruit such a person from another company that to promote someone internally.

Also, shareholders like to see staff being "rotated". That way nobody can gain enough experience in their field to become "irreplacable" and demand higher salaries. Such companies will also be the ones trying to slap Non-Compete Agreements onto every employee.

The only other strategy is to keep changing jobs every two-three years and see what skill are in demand in the marketplace or to set up your own company.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dubl-u]

First, try to move up in your current job while your foot's in the door.

This is a great way to go. A friend of mine just did this, and couldn't be happier.

I think this can be easier at a small company than a large one, so if you're having trouble with the lateral move at your current company, find yourself a new QA job.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dubl-u]

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read. You're not being serious, right?

Even if he isn't, I am. I know of a number of teams who work like this. There are a number of teams who report defect-in-production levels lower than one per developer-month.

Key practices to get to that level include test-driven development, pair programming (or code reviews), continuous integration, and frequent releases. Plus all the tests the other guy mentioned.

My feeling is that if you need a database to keep track of all your mistakes, you should focus on making fewer mistakes.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Actually, I do RTFA]

This is true. Also, a very good QA person has to show the same kind of thinking as a programmer, when it comes to reporting bugs. In fact, if you are looking for work as a programmer, I would bring a good bug report with you. You risk ending up back in QA, but if you don't have very many coding samples from the real world, a story about how you pieced together the exact combination that produced a bug makes for good substitute.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dubl-u]

Have you EVER worked on commercial software?

I have, and his comments are not unreasonable.

Management is always begging QA and engineering to try and come up with ways to automate testing of these things, but no one ever gets anywhere.

Yes, the fact that you aren't getting anywhere is proof that it's impossible for everybody, everywhere. Or, just maybe, it could mean that you are too busy to do it right. Or are using toolkits that weren't built with testability in mind. Or are spending so much time on bugs and QA that you can't afford to invest in tests. Or that you need an outside expert to help you get started.

There are so many things that simply cannot be tested except by a human.

That's not true. All repeatable tests must be defined by a thoughtful human, but there's no theoretical reason that once defined they can't be run by a computer.

All of the examples you give can be solved that way. You put the subjective information in tests. The computer may not know whether the A/V sync is right, but it can tell whether it's close enough to what a human said is right.

All-in-all, a major update to the player can require over two months of QA by a team of 8 testers.

I think "require" is a little strong. The one kind of testing a computer can't yet do is exploratory testing, where you look at the product and find the things that aren't expressed in tests yet. But for the person-following-a-script tests, the most I'll grant is that it might be cheaper to use humans than to automate. Which is a legitimate business decision, but it doesn't make the other approaches impossible.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Dun Kick The Noob]

QA is an excellent place to start as a programmer/developer etc. As one who has already made the switch, it is the QA which gives you the age. Though I do agree with the above post about code reviews and such. Try thinking from a QA perspective. QA needs extensive scripting, just think of ways to handle your data. This translates into handling information when developing applications and user interfaces. If you are not handling data, generate some, benchmarks, measurments, response times etc, Automating reports is just one way to put you in the lead. Second, QA people know how to look for problems, most programmers can follow specs, but how many can generate them? You deal with use cases, business processes. just work backwards how do you implement these. QA people have extensive contacts, you talk to a lot of people, you know how to handle people, I on a personal level find it easier to deal with the program than with customers, most bosses really value the soft skills, that may in fact be why u will get in. Automation is a very important part of QA, start from there and slowly expand your skill sets. QA has a lot of opportunities for one to develop ones programming skills, when you have them, just market them and you are on the way. Anyways i think QA is a better career, its more ordered, the people are nicer(sometimes), deadlines are saner. And you get more free time. :P

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[FireIron]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

No bull$#!+, this was the official engineering management policy at my last job. Along with "The beatings will continue until software quality improves"

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Snugglypoo]

Put in for the jobs that require 2-5 years experience.
Worst thing that can happen is you bomb a phone screen.
Best thing that can happen is you get a sweet job.
Always look for "entry-level" jobs on job websites.
http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?SAVESEARCH=&op=300&caller=2&LOCATION_OPTION=2&AREA_CODES=&ZIPCODE=&RADIUS=64.37376&COUNTRY=&METRO_AREA=33.78715899%2C-84.39164034&TRAVEL=0&SORTSPEC=0&FRMT=0&DAYSBACK=30&NUM_PER_PAGE=30&N=0&EXPANDED_NE=&FREE_TEXT=entry+level+programmer&Ntx=mode+matchall
Don't be afraid to relocate.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. You really don't know what you're talking about. I'm an SDE at Microsoft, and I know for a fact that most of our SDETs are in title only. In reality they're just manual testers instructed to click here, fill in the blank there, and submit bugs whenever there's a regression. What a sad waste of computer science degree. Do not apply as an SDET at Microsoft unless you enjoy doing work that could be replaced by a shell script.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

My route: run around in circles in central Illinois and stumble onto a "small" start-up doing "e-mail marketing" and very quickly climbed up into development.

Yep, evil pays. Ask Dick Cheyney. But make sure you get your silver in advance, or at least a contract signed in blood (theirs as well as yours)

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

A good QA developer is just as necessary as a good developer. We all like writing original code, and it takes a special kind of person to write smoke tests, et al, for someone else's code. At my previous job, our product's QA department was just as important as our development department to get the monthly releases out on time.

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

Good unit tests don't eliminate the need for QA. They free QA to find hard bugs, now that all the easy ones have already been found.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[rk]

"schlock" is an accetped varient speling.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[rk]

No, spec_creep is a function and its documentation looks like this:

float spec_creep( void )

Returns a floating point value greater than 0 that is strictly monotonically increasing.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Satanicolas]

Booze and sex at night
Stimulants during the day

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[gangien]

You know, I've been in the software development world for over 3 years. I really wonder how many 'best/brightest' minds in the industry there can be. Every other software group seems to think it is made up of extraordinary people. I really find it quite arrogant.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Tokerat]

And you spelled "bug resistant" worng. :) (Yes, I know that's 'wrong' but one of the rules of the Internet is that spelling flames must invariably have a mistake in them!)

If he had a proper QA department, that bug would never have made it to the final release.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Kazoo the Clown]

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

You laugh about this, but Microsoft either actually believed this for quite some time, or was simply oblivious-- according to a historical account written by one of the NT developers (Barbarians led by Bill Gates), they didn't even have a QA department until about the time NT was being developed.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[BitZtream]

Masters degrees will certainly help if you want to become a professor at a university, other than that, for a young person they just show you weren't capable of getting a real job so you tried to stay in school longer instead of facing reality.

If you get your masters now, maybe when you turn 40 you'll be able to convience someone that you actually know what your doing beyond having a paper that you can buy on the Internet for $500 from an 'accredited university'.

I really wish people would get over this idea that degrees have meaning other than you managed to stick with something for a few years. They don't. Board type certifications have a little weight behind them, but degrees don't mean jack shit to pretty much anyone outside of HR and Academia. Ever actually had to PROVE you have a degree to get a normal job? (Yes I realize there are some professions where you actually do have to prove it, medical and law being a couple examples) Do I think we need to stop requiring degrees for employement? No, at least it shows you were capable of finishing something, but thats it, it doesn't even tell anyone how WELL you finished.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good points.

Might I also suggest a portfolio of stuff you have done on your own.
Even if you don't have any "work" experience developing software, if you can put together some finished pieces of product (and make sure to copyright them) then often a decent portfolio can stand in for much of the 'experience' they are looking for.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bet he writes the finest Hello World program you've ever seen.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

TopCod3r, is that you?

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Glonoinha]

Also known as 'What are you doing wrong with my bug-free code?'

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Lord Kano]

I'm thinking that an internship is not the way to go. If you have bills to pay, you need at least some money.

Why in the fuck would you take an unpaid internship?

I got paid an entry-level wage during my internship.

LK

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[adamjaskie]

By doing vb.net programming, reading books, taking classes, etc. Not too hard to learn a different language.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[arcticfox 7]

As a programmer for 20+ years and head i IT in a small company.

You have to know several things about yourself and the job you want before look at changing from QA. Do you really want to be a programmer. Just like QA can be crappy, programming can be just a crappy if you dont really like it. If you love programming then go for it. look for an open source project to work on in your own time. (beware of the "works for hire" clause in employment contracts.)

Do a side project. See about being a intern somewhere.

Ethanol-fueled is correct, try to cross grade in your job. Biggest problem is if you are good at QA most bosses will not want to loose you. I have friends who wrote a ticket tracking system to help out QA and used that as experience. Look for things in your QA group that could be better solved by a program, and try fixing the problem.

Look for small companies under 20 pople who need work done. I'm currently looking for java programmers and the main thing i look at for jr developers is a degree and/or experience. Ill pick the one that has both over one or the other. But ill choose a degree with a good demostration of being able to think programatically, knowlege of the language and basics over only experience. (sorry, but many (not all by any means) programmers who have not had any training tend to be a bit more eratic and harder to intergrate into a team.)

Go to your placement office at the school you graduated from and look for the jobs there. Use QA as an advantage. Good QA people generally think very logically and if you can show them that your experience gives you a better grip on how to write better software.

Every good programmer I know is always learning. Get the books on the languages you like and play around on your own time. Get to know the language inside and out. When you have an interview make sure your know at least a little bit about the features they are asking for. If they say mysql is a nice to have, make sure you have done at least a little bit of the examples from the mysql site. Try to hit most of the nice to haves in the job offering and be able to speak about it at least in theory.

Lastly, when submitting a resume, read the posting and try to address the concerns of the person asking (taylor your resume too to emphisize the points that they are asking for). I would gladly call someone that did not have the exact specs i ask for but took the time to clarify how they can help fulfill my needs. Ones who dont have the qualifications and dont put any reason why i should ignore this fact are put at the bottom of the stack.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[funwithBSD]

You describe a system where QA is part of the development process. That is the best way to go, build the quality into the product rather then add it later.

That said, QA is still a good idea. A piece of code can run flawlessly, be technically perfect and still not match the customers requirements.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[dubl-u]

A piece of code can run flawlessly, be technically perfect and still not match the customers requirements.

This is true, but I think that should also be baked into the process. Rather then trying to get quality by testing it in later, you should have somebody in the room who knows what needs to get built, and they and developers should talk at least every few hours. They should also define success criteria before or as the working is being done and tests for that should get automated along with everything else.

But even that's no guarantee that you'll build what people need; that just guarantees you build what the suits asked for. The only solution is to ship early and often, and then pay careful attention to how people are using it in the real world.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[hundalz]

So many times I've had to go in and make a small fix for a usability issue, and ended up having to refactor a couple hundred lines of code.

Totally agree with this. Just as there are many good coders, there are just as many bad ones. No structure, no style, no zing!

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[hundalz]

If you have to pay a phalanx of QA engineers to find bugs post-facto ("just as important as our development department"), you're doing it wrong. The bugs shouldn't have been there to begin with.

You could add unit tests, integration tests and the next framework test. You can be agile. You can use TDD. You can use everything under the sun. But when you have a large complex system with 200 processes churning out data at 200 messages a second to each other over sockets, then you can almost bet your top dollar that a bug will resurface.

The problem is, just as one can write bad code, one can write even worse unit tests. Unit tests are subjective, just as the production code is.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[weicco]

Well, yes if you have spare time to loose. But if you have family, friends and hobbies then it's a little bit harder. I, for instance, have wife, two kids, two dogs and two cats. I hunt for hobby and one hunting trip takes four to five hours. I really don't feel like learning things at home on my free time on my own account, things which I should be learning on a course paid by my employer.

I know things are different in some firms. They give you couple of days here and there to learn new things and such. But in many firms they don't and it really sucks. This is one real problem in the field (at least here in Finland) which no-one wants to take seriously. Don't know why :/

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[HuguesT]

Way to go moderators, yet again completely off the mark. Noticed how Chrome is full of bugs?

Woosh...

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[adamjaskie]

Ah, I program at home in my spare time. http://www.gpf-comics.com/archive.php?d=19990201

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[hfybro]

Internships are the way to go. A nice internship will give you some job experience. If you've been thinking about going back for your Master's degree, do that. And get an internship.

LK

get hold of http://www.hfybro.com/

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Open Source is a great way to gain experience and learn how serious projects should be developed.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Bardez]

It ain't *quite* evil, as it is all opt-in stuff, but, yeah, it is essentially spam.

The worst part is how checking a box by default is considered opt-in.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[PodBayDoor]

It's not clear from the original post if this person has been doing only manual QA tasks or has also been writing automated tests.

I agree with the parent that there's no substantive difference between a QA engineer who's coding tests and a Dev engineer who's coding functionality - both are needed to deliver a product, and both need to create quality complete code.

A good QA engineer who wants to move into development should try to build good relationships with developers and the development manager, try to take on the QA tasks that would benefit from more complex automation, and if possible try to add value to the unit tests. That's a great way to show your interest and build towards an effective demonstration of what you can do.

Once you've got some development experience, make it known that you want to move into full-time development, and if you don't get what you want, take that experience and sell it on, being honest but focussing on the capability and complexity of and technologies in what you've done. Unless you get lucky at interview, the job market will probably favour employers for a while, so play it safe and do a year of hands-on coding before you try to move.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Mike Buddha]

IMHO, letting an interviewer think that you have to learn anything in order to do the job is the kiss of death for any interview.

Nobody knows everything. If you come to an interview and lie about what you know, we're going to figure it out pretty darn quick. If you don't know a subject well, admit it. Don't waste everyone's time.

When I hire programmers, I'm not particularly interested in the specifics of what they know and what they don't know. I want to know if they understand basic design concepts, security issues, database design concepts, etc. The specifics are not difficult for someone who's already gone through the trouble to learn two or three different programming languages. I'll take someone with design skills over someone with language skills every time.

If you don't know design, well, you're up shits creek.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, apps which *do* have dead-simple default looks, like Foobar2000, languish because most users want something that works out of the box.

You know, I always avoided Foobar not because of how it looks but because the name makes it sound as though it is destined to crash spectacularly. Look up the acronym FUBAR sometime.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Tuoqui]

My professors and such in college always said a college diploma is roughly equivalent to 2 years of work experience. Tack on the few years of relevant work experience in QA (Not too sure what QA does but I figure they do the testing and analyze the code a bit for problems rather than writing the code in the first place.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Top flight developers producing quality code don't need large QA departments. They've already written well-designed, bug-resistent code, unit tests, integration tests, and performance tests, all in the course of producing something that works (the first time).

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read. You're not being serious, right?

I have found a bug in your statement. "Resistent" should be "resistant".

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try program something that would be useful in your work. something that would make things easy for your co-workers. How about a "knowledge share" site or "QA" site or something that works like sharepoint app. I hope you got my point.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you've never worked in the gaming industry... or security. Not only are you constantly battling workarounds to your own code, but also third party tools specifically designed to make your company's life hell.

Ask Blizzard, EA Games or any software developer whose product handles sensitive information how important their QA teams are.

It's not just about "oops - we messed up, teehee". Software development is an ongoing battle to stay one step ahead of the cheaters, thieves and snoops out there.

Re:You should have asked this a year before.

[Lord Kano]

Exactly!

Hiring new employees is a pain in the ass. No matter what a person's resume is like, you can't tell if they're a good worker or if they'll fit in at your organization. An intern has been there and given everyone a chance to know their work and their personality. You know in advance if an intern will work out in a permanent position.

LK

Repeat

[HornWumpus]

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/29/1926216

Re:Repeat

[mooingyak]

There's a world of difference between a guy who's been doing help desk and a guy who's been doing QA. The responses to these two questions aren't going to be the same.

Re:Repeat

[highonv8splash]

I think we found something to improve on!

Re:Repeat

[sorak]

There's a world of difference between a guy who's been doing help desk and a guy who's been doing QA. The responses to these two questions aren't going to be the same.

Right. My response to one was "screw you, help-desk jockey", while my response to the other was "screw you, test monkey".

Completely different...

Build something

[Anonymous Coward]

Pick a technology you find interesting and build an application in it.

I got my first programming job by showing off a simple web based contact manager I built for myself.

-Jim Bastard

Re:Build something

[Chabil Ha']

Right on the dot. I found no problems whatsoever getting a job right out of school. I did have a 4 month internship, but I spent a lot of my time writing my own web applications for the last year or so in college. That counts as experience. My employers found it impressive that I wrote applications to solve problems and were even more impressed that I had commercialized one of the them as well.

Re:Build something

[dubl-u]

Pick a technology you find interesting and build an application in it.

Amen to that. When I'm interviewing people, my main concern is that they can do the work. If that's job experience, that's great. But as long as you have to maintain code in production, then that's the main thing.

Personally, I have a mild bias toward hiring people with hobby projects. It shows that they're doing the work because they like it, and it lets me see what they can do themselves. With a resume item, it's always hard to tell who did what, but with a solo or open-source project, it's much clearer.

Contact your Universities Placement office

[dubious_1]

Even though you have graduated, most Universities will help you find a job if you graduated from there. The jobs for entry level ( new graduate ) positions are not typically going to be posted on Monster, Hot Jobs, etc. since we look for those people at University Job fairs.
I have been to many of these as a prospective employer, and there are always several Alumni who are there looking.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[phantomfive]

The way I found a job was with google. There are plenty of places looking for entry level programmers, but they don't always advertise on Monster or craigslist, and if they do, they likely have trouble sorting the multitude of bad applications they get.

Seriously, do a google search for "entry level programmer" and you will find what you are looking for, because everyone advertises on their website.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[Anonymous Coward]

you have any vacancy? for this guy? please.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[bishiraver]

The only job I've taken from craigslist ended up being a nightmare that I left three months too late! I wouldn't have had rudimentary JavaScript skills if it weren't for that job, but it definitely was a shithole....

There's a reason HR recruiters post on CL: it's free.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[Tongsy]

It isn't free for job postings in a number of cities - from the craigslist fact sheet: Q: How much are job ads? A: $25 in Chicago, NYC, LA, DC, Boston, Portland, Sacramento, Seattle, and San Diego, and $75 in SF.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[Anonymous Coward]

100% agree. That is how I was contacted by my current employer.

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you!! I am in a similar jamb in life and your answer could be the inspiration I needed. Thank you again- one of the best, if not the best /. answer ever!!

Re:Contact your Universities Placement office

[Anonymous Coward]

While I do agree that Career Fairs at the University are excellent, I would not be so quick to rule out "Monster, Hot Jobs, etc." I recently graduated with my Bachelor's in CS and my first job is a junior developer position. The company found my resume on Monster.

College Recruiting

[Mongoose Disciple]

Research which companies are recruiting at your and other area colleges. Not that you necessarily have to go to a college career fair (although it's not a terrible idea), but it's a good way to get a feel for which companies will hire with no experience.

A couple companies in my area are very much of the "hire people straight out of college and try to keep them forever" mindset; it's no coincidence that these companies also do a ton of college recruiting. A company like this may not be where you want to spend your entire career, depending on your aspirations, but it's not a bad way to get started.

More than you think...

[Anonymous Coward]

You would be surprised. Microsoft loves to hire fresh programmers, that way they can be indoctrinated into the MS way of doing things. Many small companies will hire entry level because they can't afford $100K experienced people. They will look for entry level, lost cost people who have the basic skill set and are motivated to learn and grow. It may cost some time when training you up to speed, but many companies are willing to make that sacrifice, esp on non-critical path projects.

Good luck.

Simple

[FooGoo]

Lie on your resume...but you better be able to keep the job once you have it.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Lie on your resume...but you better be able to keep the job once you have it.

Hmm. If I were your boss, reading this... well, come into my office tommorrow morning and we'll continue this.

Re:Simple

[sjames]

At one time I would have been against that, but then I realized that most job postings are primarily a bunch of random bullet points HR tossed in that have little or nothing to do with the actual opening. That is, when they're not just wasting your time to inflate their folder of resumes 'just in case'. Then, of course, there's the postings demanding 5 years of experience in a 3 year old technology...

When it comes down to it, if you can't quite do the job, it's not like they'll say anything if your next potential employer calls them. They'll verify your employment without further comment as a matter of policy, no matter how good or bad you were.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

How about going back for a masters, but this time, get a co-op position as well.

Re:Simple

[Ethanol-fueled]

You do know that asking a subordinate for oral sex is against company policy, right?!

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Then, of course, there's the postings demanding 5 years of experience in a 3 year old technology...

I once saw a job req that had something along the lines of "Security clearance or equivalent work experience required." I never did find out what that meant.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been marked as a funny comment, but actually it's very true.

You simply got to have guts and convince the company that you know what you are doing. Even though they ask for 2-5 years of experience, this is negotiable - so to speak. If you have done a lot of cool projects, they might take that into account.

I recommend spending a lot of your time doing hobby programming (which you may actually have done). I don't think you need to directly lie on your resume, but make it look good. Make it look like you did some freelance work for a company, even though you may have done the project as a hobby.

Re:Simple

[piojo]

At one time I would have been against that, but then I realized that most job postings are primarily a bunch of random bullet points HR tossed in that have little or nothing to do with the actual opening. That is, when they're not just wasting your time to inflate their folder of resumes 'just in case'. Then, of course, there's the postings demanding 5 years of experience in a 3 year old technology...

I'm not qualified to give much advice, besides that that's a dangerous game. Especially if an engineer asks you about something that you put on your resume and you start to flounder. The goal is just to get past HR to people who know what they are talking about. In some companies, you don't even need to have all the qualifications they are demanding--sometimes they know their demands are absurd, and the person going through resumes is not the same person that wrote the job requirements.

Re:Simple

[mcmonkey]

Lie on your resume...because it's the only way you'll ever get another technical job.

If you've been doing QA for several years but are still looking at entry level programming work, either your skills aren't growing or your evaluation of your skills isn't growing.

Either way, what's next? "I've been programming C++ for several years, how do I get an entry level job programming Java?"

Entry level is just that. Unless you completely jump fields, you should never have another entry level job again in your life. "I've been in IT, now I'm looking to be a lion tamer." Ok, entry level. But anything related to work you've already done, you should be past entry level.

Re:Simple

[DiegoBravo]

The parent tried to be funny, but a lot of companies really do not know what exactly they require... maybe the developers are needing a QA software guy, but the HR people just thinks of "developing software" so the ads are that way. Of course, once inside, try to do some programming, maybe small tasks at start... those small tasks eventually have weight in your resume.

Other tactic is to apply to relatively small companies where most people makes a lot of everything, so for sure eventually you'll be asked to do some tasks in programming.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

is this funny or is it true? i think it's more true than funny.

Re:Simple

[phidipides]

Lie on your resume...but you better be able to keep the job once you have it.

REALLY bad idea. A competent interviewer will catch this, and if you came through a recruiter, when the recruiter follows up to say "how did it go" the feedback won't be good. Recruiters don't want to piss off companies, so you won't be working with that recruiter again.

If you don't go through a recruiter (and if it's been two years then you should consider finding one) then at best you won't get the job and won't be considered if an opening occurs in the future. At worst people will talk and there will be a number of other openings that aren't available to you.

Lying on your resume may work in some rare cases, especially if you're interviewing directly with an HR person who doesn't know better. But if you're interviewing with technical people, and you probably will be, odds are that they'll figure it out. Just don't do it.

Re:Simple

[Praedon]

Mmmmm.. yeah... did you get that memo? We are putting all cover sheets on the sexual harassment forms from now on...

Re:Simple

[bigtangringo]

The IT community is small. Once you get down to metro areas, they're stupendously small. A quick look through Linked In gives some good insight in that arena:

Your Connections 120
Two degrees away 10,500+
Three degrees away 1,154,500+

Don't get blacklisted over something stupid when there are viable alternatives.

Re:Simple

[BrainInAJar]

OTOH there are huge enterprise tech companies that do so much stuff that if you want to do something different from what you're doing, you only need to make a contact in the company that's already doing that (email is a wonderful thing) and see if he can't shovel some low-priority tasks your way, until you impress the manager of that suborg enough to get a job doing it

I know plenty of people who moved from helldesk -> engineering, or engineering -> marketing, or software -> hardware this way.

Re:Simple

[dartarrow]

Not at the WhiteHouse it aint

Re:Simple

[mabhatter654]

the problem with programmers (and other technical people) is that in general we expect to do the work, document it, and get the job. In business that's never how it's really done though. Look at how resumes are filled out for more "business" related positions, with all sorts of classes to basically teach you to use marketing speak to get your resume to the top. It's not technically lying, but because HR sees so many of these they blow right past the honest ones because they don't know how to read resumes anymore. The key is cover letter writing where you put "feeling" words ... you don't ever lie about the facts but you can definately beef up anything that might have an "opinion" without getting in trouble. The key is once you do that be able to back it up.

Re:Simple

[mabhatter654]

what a waste of time and money... a Masters without experience is useless. compared to entry level, you should be making double with a masters.. if you can't demonstrate that on a resume then you are now over-qualified and under-experienced for even MORE jobs.
If you have paid to learn the skills and actually learned them correctly, you should be able to get the job you have trained for. This is the big problem with the US education system. The big schools refuse to generate qualified results preferring marketing speak over graduates that have job skills. Think about it. If you go to be a nurse, when you graduate you have actually done the job a nurse will do. If you go to be a teacher you will have done student teaching. If you go to be a lawyer, you will have learned the skills and have specific testing to complete. In any of these other jobs when you are done with school you are qualified to do the actual work in real-world situations. But we techies are chumps... we pay for a degree that's only "entry level". We go into computer science or mechanical engineering but we only learned "principles" of our professions... because our professions are so "wide and varied" we get told that we didn't learn quite the "right skills" to get the job we went to school for.. but with a "few more years" of experience companies are sure we'll fit in.

We're chumps.. and the field is full of poorly planned job descriptions. The few companies at the top cherry-pick the best candidates with non-quantifiable criteria so that the job is not about taking the right classes, or getting the right grades but passing some silly "emotional quiz". That way colleges pump out lots of students trying for the "prize" but few get it. That would be unacceptable in any other field. Why do we accept it in technology?

Re:Simple

[cerberusss]

You do know that asking a subordinate for oral sex is against company policy, right?!

I advise to keep these sort of dealings strictly limited to the parking lot.

Re:Simple

[bishiraver]

We don't even know what kind of QA this guy is doing!

He could be:

1. Playtesting games
2. Working with QTP on a web application
3. Writing smoketests
4. etc...

Many times QA development is more difficult than engineering. If it's #1, though... may god have mercy on his soul.

Re:Simple

[strjms72]

it's not that simple in any other job. the students that are being pumped out from any other college don't all get the "prize". it's the same thing

Re:Simple

[sjames]

Near as I can guess, the equivilent work of a Security clearance would be espionage.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Lie on your resume...but you better be able to keep the job once you have it.

Why is this modded as funny? How else does one get a better job?

Re:Simple

[sjames]

The key is to exaggerate, but make sure you have the knowledge to back it up. Mention the software development experience but not that it was all in your spare time. If you have no work experience in development, go for a jr. position, not chief architect!

Once you get past HR into the interview, it may be time to level with the interviewer (you're not admitting to lying, just clarifying your resume).

In other cases, it may be better to avoid correcting his/her assumptions while not lying to a direct question.

Re:Simple

[geeknotnerd]

This is not an either-or situation. It's not 'lie or don't apply'. You don't need to lie, just apply. As noted, the want ads contain a wish list. Don't let that keep you from applying. If you get an interview, play up the strength of your QA experience and how that enhances your value as a programmer.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

I once saw a job req that had something along the lines of "Security clearance or equivalent work experience required." I never did find out what that meant.

"If you have clearance we can train you, if you're trained we can get you clearance, but fuck if we're doing both"

Re:Simple

[jeremyp]

Do not lie on your resume.

If the company you're applying to is competent, they will find you out and show you the door. If they are not competent, do you really want to work for them?

Re:Simple

[elloGov]

Along those lines, I agree! I didn't graduate with a CS degree. I did a month or two of internship where I went through a basic Java book and had side projects in PHP. This is where I learned the basics. Once you have the basic knowledge which I'm sure you have, just user your network to interview well and land a job. Don't lie, but bend the truth as you are confident that you will be able to perform the job once you get it. All you need is for someone to take a chance with you.

Re:Simple

[Jane_Dozey]

"Computer Scientist" is not a vocation. Sure, researchers can work *as* Computer Scientists but I've never seen it as a job description. If you want a vocational computer degree go for Software Engineering or something like that. A CS grad should be able to move into just about any sector of the computer industry, a bit like a biologist can go into lots of roles within biology.

Turning academic degrees into vocational degrees is, IMHO, stupid. I didn't go to a University and study CS to learn how to job X. I went so that I could gain a deeper understanding in an area that I find interesting. As a result I can understand lots of different things and train to do a particular job as I go along (hence the reason I'm now in a junior software dev position learning lots of stuff :-)

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

I second FooGoo's suggestion. You need to embellish a bit, but be prepared to back it up. If you have confidence in yourself and your abilities, then there's nothing wrong with pouring a little sugar on top, when selling yourself.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

In some companies, you don't even need to have all the qualifications they are demanding--sometimes they know their demands are absurd, and the person going through resumes is not the same person that wrote the job requirements.

And in some companies they use this as an excuse to hire an H1B.

Re:Simple

[chizy2]

Never EVER lie on your resume. It will come back to haunt you and you can be fired over it.

Be honest, and work hard, you will get what you are looking for.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

I once saw a job req that had something along the lines of "Security clearance or equivalent work experience required." I never did find out what that meant.

What is it that doesn't make sense? It's asking if you have a security clearance now, or if you've worked on something that required a security clearance before (and the clearance expired). It's easier to get a security clearance if you've already had one.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree about the "...random bullet points..." that's not entirely HR's fault.

Do you really expect an HR person to understand the qualifications for a System Engineer?

The problem is that the hiring manager or engineer to too damn busy to read the resumes so they open a requisition for a new hire. HR, not knowing what the job really entails, asks for a list of "must have" and "nice to have" skills which the manager/engineer then fills out.

The HR person is then supposed to "pre-screen" the resumes based on the list that may - or may not - be what the position really requires. He might even have to do the first round of interviews. It's really hard to blame HR for asking for too much when they really don't understand the work.

Re:Simple

[FooGoo]

Companies rarely show you the door for lying on your resume unless you make a nice public mistake. Look at it this way....if you are lying on your resume you are providing a "get out of jail free" card to your boss.

If they are not competent, do you really want to work for them?

Yes, to get experience

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

The world's economy is based on people lying to each other about the value of their assets, and politics seems to be all about lying to the public.

Might as well lie your way into a job, since honesty will only get you fired when you catch your superiors lying to their shareholders, customers or colleagues somewhere down the line anyway.

Re:Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know that asking a subordinate for oral sex is against company policy, right?!

what about asking a SUPERIOR for oral sex?

Try Harder

[RecursiveLoop]

I did the same, only caught in QA for 6 months though.... I can tell u this, some companies(mine) hire Jr. programmers when they cant get anyone else, for one reason or another. I found out the reason for my company soon, startup short on funding regularly misses payroll. Currently Im 3 paychecks behind...ughh But at least Im not "Unemployed" during this messy market, and Im getting bonfide Programmer experience on my resume for when I chose to bolt!

Re:Try Harder

[Cynonamous Anoward]

This is actually the hard truth. If you want to get a good job, you need experience. The only way to get experience is to work for someone who is desperate. That's what I did. Look for small startups. You might not get paid well. You might not get a project you like. Best case, you work on some new idea and help bring a cool new start up off the ground. Worst case, you eke by for a year and presto! have a year of experience as a commercial software developer!

Re:Try Harder

[Praxx]

Currently Im 3 paychecks behind...ughh But at least Im not "Unemployed" during this messy market, and Im getting bonfide Programmer experience on my resume for when I chose to bolt!

I'd say the time to bolt is now. First missed paycheck is a mistake, second one (in a row) and you should stop going in - unless you like working for free.

Re:Try Harder

[cerberusss]

Currently Im 3 paychecks behind...ughh

I can't imagine that everybody at your company is three paychecks behind. There are people with mortgages who would've bolted at the first missed paycheck.

Think about that for a bit.

Re:Try Harder

[geminidomino]

I found myself in the same boat as GP (working for a small startup, just hit my 1 year, missed a few checks).

In our case though, EVERYONE was behind, yes. But, there are facts that let me whether it out:

A) I don't live paycheck to paycheck. I have no debt (recently finished paying off my motorcycle. Go me!)
B) I had sufficient savings to live off of(which has since been refreshed when the back pay came in)
C) Given my location and low-level of programming experience, it would have been riskier to try to find a new job that wasn't "Wal-Mart Greeter" than to weather it out.
D) (This is the big one) I trusted that my company wasn't trying to shaft me so it was WORTH holding on.

Granted, I set my bar low (4 checks behind and I walked), but still never got to that point and things are leveled off.

I don't think D would be true with anything OTHER than a start-up, at least for me. They're the only companies now where you can find anything resembling employee loyalty.

Re:Try Harder

[QuantumHobbit]

Currently Im 3 paychecks behind...

They fixed the glitch. By any chance are you missing a red stapler?

This happened to me before and I stayed on until 4 missed paychecks then quit. Turns out my salary wasn't budgeted for in the current quarter and they hoped to "make it up" in the next quarter. It took me six months to receive about half of what was owed me and I've given up on the rest. If you aren't sending out resumes now, I'd recommend starting.

Re:Try Harder

[NormalVisual]

After the first missed paycheck, I wouldn't have showed back up until I got it. No point in giving your employer the free time that you could have been using finding another job. :-)

Get involved in an Open Source project

[Nefarious Wheel]

Get stuck into an Open Source project, find out how it works, dive deep. If it turns out you can make a contribution that has even reasonably broad acceptance, that will add to your credibility as a programmer. At worst, you'll be keeping up your currency in at least one field.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[darnok]

Agree completely. Find a FOSS project that uses the same technologies as you'd like to use in your 9-5 job, and get stuck in. It (generally) costs nothing more than your own time.

Given a choice between 2 programmers with similar skillsets and experience, I'd be inclined to go with the guy who's got FOSS coding experience in his background. The implication is that you're prepared to put your code out there for peer review (which takes some guts), and you're prepared to write code to scratch your own personal itches. Both of those demonstrate qualities in the people I'd want to work for me.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[jamesh]

I've been involved in two open source projects over the last 12 months and have received (tentative) employment offers as a result of both of them. A decent contribution to a large project shows that you can do the job, can work well with others, and can be motivated to do things, so even if people don't come looking for you, it still helps a lot, and keeps your experience current.

If you do participate in OSS projects via public mailing lists, remember that most of the related mailing lists are publicly archived and your name will show up in a google search as a result of this, particularly if you state "I have been heavily involved in project xyz" on your resume and they go and google using your name and that project as keywords. So be nice to others online :)

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[martyros]

The "work on an open-source project" suggestion has been mentioned several times, and it seems an obvious one. But does it matter when the rubber hits the road? Can I hear some concrete stories of people (you or someone you know) who either:

• Was hired as a result, in part, of their work on open-source projects, or
• Hired someone based, in part, on their work in open-source projects?

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[Anonymous Conrad]

There are plenty of examples of game-modder hired by a game dev team, which is kind of analogous I suppose. The only real open-source examples I know are people hired to continue working on that project, e.g. Apple hired the LLVM guy so they can build their next compiler on LLVM, a number of GCC devs have been hired by chip devs or GCC consulting firms or by Linux distros or Apple, etc.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[Anonymous Coward]

You open source guys are cracking me up. It will take years of commitment without getting paid to get to the point where the type of experience you've earned will land you a good job. I don't know how you live but I don't have more than 4-5 hours a week I can allocate to outside-of-work projects, and likely i would take those hours and put them into something that it's my creation.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[Jellybob]

I've been told that working on Open Source projects has been a major factor in being hired for most of the jobs I've done.

As the GP said, it shows you have enough passion for the job to do it even if you're not being paid, and it puts code out there that an employer can see. That's a big thing, because hiring a developer without seeing their code is (or should be) the same as hiring an artist without seeing any of their paintings.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[paroneayea]

/me raises his hand

And now I work for the Participatory Culture Foundation on Miro, so now I also have an open source job, too. But at my previous job even (also as python programmer at a web development company), I was hired because of the skills I learned in the open source community. I actually don't have a degree in Computer Science, I have a degree in the humanities. But I've always been a hobbyist, so it's been a second education for me. One of the best programmers I've ever known followed nearly the same path. So, hell yes I know people who fit that bill.

My recommendation is to get involved in coding, yes, but also in local user groups. This isn't the reason I originally began attending, but find a local python, linux, ruby, whatever's your interest user group, and learn. Eventually start participating, give talks on things you've learned and done. It'll make you an attractive hire. Often, people who are the head of their technology departments work here, or programmers who are asked by their bosses to recruit will mention their company is hiring, or whatever. (I've taken on that role before.)

The point is that good companies want good people, and the best people don't even necessarily have a degree... what really matters is that they are passionate and engaged in the kind of work they'll be doing.

Besides, it's fun anyway! So what are you waiting for? Get out there and code! Hang out at some user groups! It's all free education and morally rewarding!

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[Jane_Dozey]

We're talking about getting a foot in the door here, not getting a super-duper-fabulous job. Open source projects can and do help when it comes to landing that first job.

Re:Get involved in an Open Source project

[quoll]

I can't agree with this more. As an interviewer I wanted to know if the person I was talking to was interested in programming, or if they were just doing it to pay the bills. Programming in your own time says that you're the kind of person who is interested in computers in general, which usually means you're also interested in learning.

The other thing to point out is that job advertisements usually ask for the "ideal" candidate. It would be great if you had 2-5 years of experience, but I was always prepared to talk to people who had none. In those cases, their extra-curricula programming became even more important (ie. open source work, even if it was not significant)

Start coding

[robogymnast]

Build up a small portfolio by contributing to an open-source project, or start your own, or code that cool project that you have been thinking about in your head from time to time. Do whatever you have to do to start writing some actual working code.

Don't undervalue your QA experience either. QA experience means that you know how to test and debug, which is a rather large percentage of development. If you don't meet the requirements exactly, apply anyway, or look for jobs that mix QA and development, but make it clear that you want to move into a development role as soon as you are ready. Good luck!

good luck - many programmers outsourced

[Anonymous Coward]

Programming is an easily-outsourced IT job. Perhaps you should find a way to specialize, so that you can combine programming skills with other necessary skills such as DBA work or IT administration. Programming alone is a great gig, but not so easy to come by. If you had programming and graphic design skills, you could go into game development.

Another way might be to develop apps for the iPhone. You can make a lot of money over time if Apple picks your app; if they don't, you may be able to port it to Android or Blackberry.

Re:good luck - many programmers outsourced

[SanityInAnarchy]

Programming is an easily-outsourced IT job.

Bullshit.

Perhaps we could say it's the easiest kind of IT job to outsource, but none are easy. It's hard enough to communicate your needs to contractors who at least have English as a first language -- and I speak from experience.

All of this means that it would be very difficult to outsource a job or two. If they're going to outsource, it'll be the whole department.

If you had programming and graphic design skills, you could go into game development.

I don't personally know any game developers, but do they really not split that up? My understanding is, the programmers program, and the designers design.

Re:good luck - many programmers outsourced

[telbij]

GP sounds like he's 16 with no real world experience.

Programming jobs are not hard to come by at all. Yes you should be able to pick up some administrator or other tangential skills along the way but it's rarely a core requirement to getting hired.

Game development has nothing to do with graphic design. Illustrators, animators, modelers, yes, but not graphic designers. Also, it's a pretty niche type of programming. You need to know more about physics and other common game algorithms. Pretty hard to get into without specific training.

Re:good luck - many programmers outsourced

[piojo]

If you had programming and graphic design skills, you could go into game development.

I don't personally know any game developers, but do they really not split that up? My understanding is, the programmers program, and the designers design.

That's in line what I've heard. I interviewed at a gaming company, and my math skills weren't up to snuff. It seemed like they wanted me to have a command of calculus/differential equations and linear algebra, and I just don't. They clearly want someone who can do computer graphics, but that is way different than "design".

Demonstrate competence

[jmorris42]

Unless you had a very good program in school, odds are you haven't actually written many real world programs. The stuff in school usually isn't finished programs, just enough to demonstrate the concepts being discussed.

So join an open source project and do some real world programming. Learn how to finish the job, catch those return codes, use a version control system, track down bugs in non-trivial programs, work on getting the documentation to actually match the program, etc. Learn how to work in a real team. Be a big enough contributer that you can rightfully claim to be a major contributer so when a prospective employer follows up by looking at the credits, commit logs and mailing list traffic you aren't seen as inflating the record.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[phidipides]

"So join an open source project and do some real world programming."

Mod the parent up - without significant experience no one will hire you. When the company I work at is hiring people we generally get a ton of resumes, most of which are an alphabet soup of people who read a lot of O'Reilly books. In an interview it becomes apparent very quickly who actually understands the technology and who has merely crammed a bunch of knowledge. By joining an open source project you'll get some real-world experience that will force you to dig deep into a project, to make decisions about how best to solve a design problem, and force you to work with tools and technologies like Subversion, Tomcat, automated testing frameworks, etc.

In addition, when there are multiple candidates that are qualified for a job (and with the current economy there usually are) a company has the luxury of hiring people that are easy to work with, so make a good impression in the interview. Be friendly, be well groomed, and show some social skills. This aspect of an interview may not seem that important, but if you don't have strong experience then you'll need whatever help you can get, and making sure you project yourself as someone that people want to work with is a huge advantage.

Last of all, how are you looking for jobs? Consider asking friends for recommendations or going through a recruiter rather than just posting on Monster. Have a look at sites like dice.com - those are usually contract positions, but many companies will hire someone on a short contract and offer them a full-time job if things work out. If you really want a new job in today's economy try every possible avenue you can find and eventually one will pan out.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[Anonymous Coward]

Starting your own projects is a great idea too. Even if you don't open source them or do them with groups of people, programmers who spend a lot of time and effort to realize their ideas are programmers who love programming. Loving programming, and using programming as a tool and not just for the sake of programming, will set you apart from the others. This is assuming you actually love programming, which if you don't please look for a position in a different field.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[StormReaver]

"So join an open source project and do some real world programming."

When I applied for my current job after getting my BS degree, the listed requirements were way above my qualifications, which was exactly what I was looking for. I needed to defer my student loans for another 6 months so I could keep working on my Open Source project, and I needed one more job rejection to qualify for the deferment. I sent my resume in, and got the rejection notice a few days later. The day after that, I got a call from the same place asking me to come in for an interview.

During the interview, the interviewers were particularly interested in all my personal Open Source projects I listed as programming experience. Those projects are what got me the job offer. Never underestimate the usefulness of Open Source experience.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[AncientPC]

Joining an open source project gets repeated as a good way to get some programming experience under one's belt, but outside of Google summer of code what's the best way to start?

Browse bug lists, download the dev branch and start plugging away?

Re:Demonstrate competence

[OshMan]

I moved from QA to engineering by getting involved at my own company. First I prototyped, then built an auto run application. Then I got involved in, and eventually took over installs. Now I'm a web applications engineer. Take some initiative, get involved. If your company is worth a damn then they'll be interested in growing your career and keeping you. If you're good at it they should be happy to keep giving you more. If you can't do this then you're at the wrong company. And if you need to change companies, lots of QA departments are also involved in fixing bugs. Look for one of those.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[Jellybob]

Browse bug lists, download the dev branch and start plugging away?

Yes.

Either that, or add a feature to some software that you've always thought should be there... although you should probably check that it's likely to get accepted first.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[EastCoastSurfer]

I would think that you need to first find a open source project that interests you. If you lack the interest you won't want to work on it your free time. Second, find a project that is active. It doesn't have to be a huge project, but you want one that has active users and developers. After that get on the mailing list/bug lists and start tracking down bugs. Fix the bugs if you can. If can't, ask the mailing list how you can help by documenting where in the code the bug exists (most bug reports are from a users standpoint so simply finding where in the code the bug is located can be a huge help). If you're polite, listen, and are helpful people will want to work with you.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[phidipides]

As others have indicated, first find a project that interests you - don't work on something simply to get it on your resume, but work on it because you find it useful and interesting. Second, start by downloading and compiling the code; in many cases this will force a developer to gain some familiarity with a build system or version control system they might not otherwise have used. Third, play around with things to get some understanding of the code - add a "hello world" here and there. Join the mailing list, introduce yourself, and ask questions.

Finally, start going through the bug tracker and trying to fix or at least add more information to bugs. As you gain greater familiarity you can try adding features. It won't be an overnight process to become a part of a project, but if you demonstrate some commitment it will help you, help the project, and reflect well in job interviews.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[jmorris42]

> As others have indicated, first find a project that interests you - don't work on something simply to get it
> on your resume, but work on it because you find it useful and interesting.

Actuall'y I disagree. I am recommending doing this precisely to put it on a resume so go at it purely selfishly and pick for maximum benefit. In the real world of corporate software development you don't get to pick your project, you generally don't get exciting things that will change the world. So pick projects to demonstrate the things you want to show an employer. Do it as self directed education, not a hobby. If you want to specialize (generally a bad idea though) pick projects in the area you want a job in, but if you want to show how well you can tackle anything and adapt to change pick a widely spread set.

So go put a new device driver into OpenBSD (and thus demonstrate you can also deal with difficult personalities) go find the wish list for some web framework and add one of them, contribute a major set of features to an up and coming open source game, etc. Don't be limited to one language, version control, etc.

Remember this thread is supposed to be advice for someone with a CS degree. If the paper is actually worth a damned the person knows lots of theory but hasn't yet done a lot in the real world, which is why the problems getting hired. In this economy nobody wants to pay to finish somebody's education so you need to show you are ready to hit the ground running. Not say, show.

Re:Demonstrate competence

[phidipides]

I should have clarified - I'm not suggesting that everyone run out and add graphics to the latest open source video game when they're trying to get a job building tax software, but I do think it's important to get involved with a project that you actually want to be involved with, otherwise you'll lose interest and probably not make any meaningful contribution. Most people won't want to do something that feels like work for several months, which is probably the minimum time required to help the project and gain useful experience. If instead they are working on something that they feel interested in they are more likely to contribute regularly over time and gain a deeper understanding.

Your point about contributing to a project that involves marketable skills is well made, but there are enough projects out there that it should be possible to find something that requires valuable skills while also being interesting work. It's important to show experience that demonstrates that you did more than just try to tick off another box on a resume, and I think that only by contributing to something that you can be involved with will a person achieve that goal.

Get OpenSource on your resume

[BountyX]

If you cant find decent internships or jobs, become a key player in some well-known open source projects so you can throw them on your resume. I've been pretty impressed with some entry level guys who played key roles in open source jobs it shows intiative and and passion.

Three ways

[jwhitener]

There are 3 ways to get that first job:

1. Know someone in the company
2. Gain experience through personal projects and showcase it.
3. Be extremely charismatic and up to date on the job's focus areas and especially the companies specific mission.

Right out of college, with a degree in Anthropology, my first job was as a system analyst for a health care corporation.

For years I had tinkered with computers, and kept somewhat up to date on modern programming techniques, enterprise systems, and had created several little programs that resided on public servers that I could show off.

The interview was successful because I:
A) Knew exactly what they wanted for that position.
B) Researched the relevant "buzzwords" and lingo beforehand.
C) Was generally easy going and relaxed.

Despite having no formal education in computer science or programming, my obvious research into their business and corporate culture (thank you anthropology!) really showed well during the first encounter.

People with technical skills are a dime a dozen (unless you are striving to get into some very abstract programming job), and usually, a hardworking, motivated person should be able to convince a interviewer that they are up for the challenge.

Basically, apply for the job in front of you, do not apply for "a programming job". If you treat the job as something unique, do a little research on the company and their culture, and can "seem to be one of them", you are in.

Re:Three ways

[tuzo]

People with technical skills are a dime a dozen (unless you are striving to get into some very abstract programming job)

In my experience this isn't true. I guess it depends how you define technical skills, though. But in so many IT shops you see the same problems from the same sorts of programmers (who, I assume have technical skills?): Why wouldn't you check for null? If you caught the exception, why wouldn't you log an error? Why would you catch an exception and then ignore it? Why would you use a cookie to determine if a user was admin? Why didn't you use a transaction for those two database operations? etc. I'm not making this stuff up. I guess it's Sturgeon's Law for programming.

Re:Three ways

[largesnike]

People with technical skills are a dime a dozen

wow! really? In my experience, the reverse is true. Oh there are plenty who are buzzword-compliant - in that they can give a practiced three-sentence spiel on what spring is, but put them in front of a computer for some actual development, and you'll see some pretty dangerous stuff coming out. I'm afraid that two-thirds of applicants coming to us are like that. So, when you're rejecting yet another technically able person, could you send 'em our way? thanks!

Re:Three ways

[rakslice]

And don't forget: If chutzpah and not know-how is what will get you in the door, be prepared to work in an organization that is gung-ho but a little short on skills. =)

Re:Three ways

[Parham]

jwhitener is absolutely on the ball on this. I actually had all three points he mentioned above to get my software development job. Before that, I did support for about 1.5 years which involved little to no actual programming, unless you were trying to reproduce some specific kind of problem.

Re:Three ways

[batquux]

This is a very good point. Being a programmer doesn't have to mean working for a company that produces software. There are a lot of places that could really use some custom software but don't want or need an entire development staff. I'm the all-around IT guy for a sporting goods company. I do a lot of regular support stuff, but I've also written a lot of software (inventory control, secure database, point-of-sale, scheduling). If nothing else I'm making my resume look good and I'll have nothing but good references if/when I choose to move on. Also, this job wasn't advertised. I was caught being a geek in public and was told I should stop in and apply.

Re:Three ways

[moro_666]

I vote up for the way #1 ... although i got my first job over way #3

  All jobs after that have arrived with an invitation so far, more or less #1

  If there's nothing else that you can do, throw some personal projects and create a little startup ... it doesn't take all that much money these days and you'll have a solid proof of experience when you demo it to your future employer.

How many times...

[banffbug]

does an article like this come up? once every 2 months?

Write test code

[Smallpond]

The natural step from doing QA is writing the tests for QA: specs, scripting, network, database, there can be a lot involved.

Re:Write test code

[Quince alPillan]

This is the answer he should be looking for. If you want to move from QA to development, first move from a QA tester to a QA Engineer/Developer. You can begin writing code using your experience as a QA tester with a better understanding of just what a QA tester needs. You may even be able to move into the position within your current company. You could be writing programs to load test your current programs or a test harness for any current projects and any future ones. Just because you have QA in your title, shouldn't mean that you don't write code.

Volunteer Work

[tsalmark]

The answer, regardless of career path is always volunteer work, in the case of programming that may be an Open source project. There are also non-profits looking for help, simple scripts and small programs to automate their work flow count as experience. You may get culled by a mindless sorter/agency for not having two years programming, but to most managers hiring juniors any related experience is good, if it shows your work ethic and general abilities.

Move to New Zealand

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a shortage of IT graduates here. :)

Re:Move to New Zealand

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm...sorry to say this...you Kiwis are good people...but you have a shortage of almost everything there.

Re:Move to New Zealand

[Anonymous Coward]

I looked into emigrating to New Zealand from the UK at the beginning of the year, but sadly the NZ immigration process makes it very difficult for anyone with less than a freaking masters degree in CS or 10 years direct experience in the job they're working in once they get there.

Re:Move to New Zealand

[Anonymous Coward]

Except sheep. And Uruk-hai warriors!

Re:Move to New Zealand

[bishiraver]

I hear they have hobbits, though!

Start your own company

[Anonymous Coward]

This might seem a little out of the ordinary, but you might consider starting your own business and write your own applications for a couple of years. Not really to make any money per-se, but just to gain work experience in your off-hours. After a couple years, Not only will you have the experience required, but you should also have a nice portfolio of applications to show off and a CEO title to add to your resume;) Who knows, maybe after a couple of years, you'd have enough of a revenue stream established in your own business that there would be no need to find a job.

Internships

[Anonymous Coward]

Have to agree. Though I had grad school "experience", getting an internship was the real way in! I did a 6 month internship with IBM and as they say showed my worth. Not only did the internship itself pay well, I am quite happy with the FT job. Once I was here though I made it clear that I did not want to do testing, that developing was my thing. Lucky there were options for me but sometimes you are stuck doing whatever it is they need. "Needs of the Business".

Years ago I had taken an "junior programmer" job. Came with a "junior salary" too. I was better off quitting and going to grad school (which I promptly did) making similar money as a grad assistant.

Is programming really for you?

[xquark]

Ask yourself this, do you really want to be a programmer?

Many people think its the "it thing" in IT, and that being a programmer and eventually an architect is the pinnacle of their career.

The truth is most people will not make good programmers, they wont end-up enjoying what they do, and something as mentally straining and intensive as programming requires you to continually have a good/positive mindset to be productive and to churn out top notch solutions.

I suppose this is the same for all types of careers - is it really for you?

That said most people will undoubtedly tell you to do some open source, start some of your own projects.
I have another suggestion, take your QA role, and ask yourself this: what tasks that you're doing now can be further automated, is there an area where something can be solved with a program?

If you can find that area(s), and build the program(s) to solve those problem(s), then you're probably a good fit for programming, if you're the kind of person that needs someone to tell them any one of those things, then perhaps its not for you...

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Ask yourself this, do you really want to be a programmer?

>>start some of your own projects

Agreed. If you really want to be a programmer, you'll find yourself doing it. You'll make opportunities wherever you're at to program. Websites for family, for small businesses, etc. Or small applications that are generally useful. These small things can lead to bigger things.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Revvy]

There are ample opportunities within QA to do programming. I have yet to meet a developer who says, "No, don't write my unit tests for me."

Have you heard of Selenium? How about Groovy, FIT, JUnit, JMeter, or ant? How's your svn-fu and when was the last time you mucked around in an apache.conf file? Know some SQL that you've used for verification? Got any handy shell scripts? Had to mess around with Prototype, JSON, JavaScript, Perl, PHP, Python, or Ruby?

C'mon, be honest with yourself. What's really holding you up?

Re:Is programming really for you?

[moteyalpha]

It got most of my programming positions by working in another department. I worked in QA and designed automated tests for the hardware receiving before it was installed. I worked designing software for systems control in chip fabs and I programmed at night on things I enjoyed because it was just not fun at work. Meetings, politics, bad choices, Windows, corporate games, and everything that is work. I enjoy doing open source more than any job I could ever have. The commercial programming like Windows device drivers was never fun. Sadly, businesses like MS products and they are never fun to use. Many businesses would make more profit if they used open source SW, but they often don't know how to deal with the idea of having a brain and then having your own thoughts in it.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[largesnike]

I have yet to meet a developer who says, "No, don't write my unit tests for me."

I'm one that would say that. That's kinda what test-driven development is all about.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[YttriumOxide]

Out of interest (this isn't just directed to the post I'm replying to), what's the deal with the amazing amount of web related posts I always see in any threads about programming?

I've been coding for most of my life, and doing so professionally for nearly all of my adult life, and I've never once written a web app. I do realise there's a lot of web development stuff going on out there these days, but it seems the posts on Slashdot are extremely skewed towards that end of the spectrum.

I'd be really quite keen to hear how many people here are developers that DON'T do web stuff...

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you consider web stuff? I don't do it usually, but sometimes in a small company everyone should have access to the data one of my apps collects, and installing something on every PC is a pain, so I end up doing "web stuff".

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Rakishi]

I don't do it, unless you count stuff that's so far in the backend it's multiple apis (if even that) away from the actual webpage.

That said I've coded a bunch of web stuff for my own amusement and am generally familiar with it.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[cerberusss]

I'm doing C++ (Qt) here, with lots of Perl. However, if you haven't done anything web related, you're really missing out. You need at least some experience with that to offer good advice to your (internal) client.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[bishiraver]

Don't know why you're getting modded down... TDD is a great way to know you have a huge amount of code coverage with your unit tests. At the two major corps I've worked for, having unit tests for your code review was the only way you were going to be able to check in code.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Automating existing tasks is a great way to change direction. When I started out in CS I was basically a glorified help desk staffer. It was dead end work. To make matters worse the company had a policy against writing software in house. (yeah, I know - I never should have taken the job) So even when I found things that could be improved the company would not allow me to install development tools or right what they considered custom software.

I realized that Microsoft Office had VBA and all the desktop computers already had that installed. Yes, its not much of a development environment or programming language. However, it gave me enough to automate some highly visible tasks (like scheduling the hours for all of the plant's workers). The work I saved that employer earned me some very good references (like the plant production manager who no longer needed to do the schedule by hand). Yeah, the programs were not great but the experience gave me some great stories for my interviews. That experience, coupled with my CS degree, led to my next job - for a whole lot more money.

When life gives you lemons... lol

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

My thoughts are along those lines. I doubt this person could make a good programmer. Undoubtedly, after two years in QA, there would have been opportunities to writes scripts, or small applications that would have made life easier. The original post suggests there opportunities were ignored.

A central part of being an excellent developer is being self motivated to find solutions to problems. The original poster seems to be lacking in that department.

In my company, your better off not being a programmer. Other get paid the exact same amount, and pretty much dump on the programmers while doing little work themselves.

For me I love what I do and get paid very well to do it, so I am happy.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[pla]

Ask yourself this, do you really want to be a programmer?

He should have asked himself that 4 (or 5... or 6...) years ago. Now, he needs to either like coding, or suffer through it for a decade to afford a go at a new career.

I agree, though, far too many people seem to go for CS (or related) degrees who really don't like coding. Big mistake, IMO. Now, personally, I truly love programming... I did it before college, I did it to help pay for college, I do it for a living, I do it in my spare time, hell, when I slack off a bit for some mental downtime at work, I sneak in a bit of coding on unrelated personal projects. I admit I might count as a bit more obsessive about it than most, but if you can't at least relate to the idea, run away screaming from anything even resembling a CS degree.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Lord Pillage]

I am a current CS student in a University program, and from what I've learned already (and, yes, I've done some web stuff including a couple firefox plugins) is that web dev will probably be the next evolution of computing. I think you'll find that over the next decade that large scale offline solutions to many problems will be migrated to a web based program. I mean, we can see this happening with the so-called cloud computing. Right now it seems kind of a buzz, but if/when it becomes an accepted part of business culture, almost everyone will need to be a web developer to a certain extent, if not completely.

If anything, a programmer's greatest asset will be his/her ability to keep up with the trends in such a fast moving technology

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't do web stuff. I use VB.net as the company standard, with a SQL server backend. I use C#.net at home simply because that way I can link into the companies HUGE library of functions.

That said, I can code in Java, PHP, ASP.net, and throw together an HTML web page or two if necessary, I just tend not to because I don't enjoy developing for the web

Re:Is programming really for you?

[telbij]

Aside from just being trendy, the web is the default network platform. It's easy to get started in, and the simplicity of the platform lent itself to becoming the defacto standard.

The web has deep flaws as an application platform, and indeed we are throwing out decades of UI and development experience, but none of that matters since it is the market choice.

10 years from now there will be a ton of this vanilla web development and maintenance going on, but people probably won't talk about it as much. All the buzz will be about some new technology, which no doubt will be interesting, but also vastly overrated and receiving disproportionate attention.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Revvy]

Well, we haven't met ;-) TDD is great. I love the quality of code that comes out of it in comparison to the from-the-hip stuff that I've dealt with for many years. That said, sometimes new things crop up. Something that wasn't thought about before, some integration, some last-minute partner request gets shoved in or discovered, and now there's a bug being logged. If the QA person can not only log the bug but (re)write the unit test to verify that you've fixed it, are you really going to turn that down?

Re:Is programming really for you?

[LoveMe2Times]

This has pretty much always been the case here (or at least as long as I've been coming here, maybe 8 years or so). I come from a background where "real" programming is considered "development," as in belonging to R&D. Meaning, not part of IT. Slashdot is very skewed towards IT, that's where it started and that's the culture. And while there is occasionally "real" programming done under the auspices of IT, it's not going to be commercial application development. Back in the 90s, MFC, WIN32, COM/OLE/ActiveX was all the rage, with Java and all it's associated libraries being an up-and-comer. Ten-fifteen years ago we were still in the heyday of "application development." This was done with C/C++ and in some cases Java. At that time, over in IT they were using Perl or bash scripting to automate stuff, Perl for some CGI pages, and some guys were using VB to create internal workflow apps or using Access or FoxPro to create small office solutions or whatever.

Fast forward to today, and .NET has replaced a heckuva lot of WIN32 app development, Java has fallen off the face of the earth as a (commercial) end user app development platform, and the web has pervaded everything we do despite the .COM crash, and we're left with a little bit of the money-grubber-don't-know-shit-about-computers legacy of HTML wannabes from the boom. This decade, the new technologies, development platforms, languages, books, and so forth have been highly focused on the web. So combine the IT over R&D focus of the site with the earlier influx of non-serious workers with the dearth of exposure for "real" programming within the industry and we get all the C++ haters, Java-is-slow (based on 10 year old data) wankers, scripting-language-of-the-week acolytes to come and invade every discussion on programming. The C++ discussions are the worst. They're not usually worth the time to read the drivel. Arghh.

As for myself, I've been around the block a few times and now do a mixture of app development, low level stuff, and web stuff too. I've been programming for 25 years, but amazingly enough I didn't get on the C bandwagon until about 1990, then started working with Java and Perl around 1993, then got caught up with C++ around 1995, doing the whole MFC/WIN32 thing through the late 90s, started seeing some Linux uptake by 2000, got started with the web stack, databases and SQL (after using object databases during the late 90s, and the famous B-Tree book and library in the early 90s). Made browser plugins/ActiveX controls, started with browser JavaScript programming, and finally got into Flash around 2003. I now supervise the development of a product line that includes just about all of this. I don't supervise the web-developers. Wish I did, so I could fire them and hire people who know something. They are ignorant, knowing nothing outside of their sandbox, and have no passion for programming. In my experience, this is common--the web developers want/need everything spoon-fed to them because they have no understanding nor interest in the bigger picture, while it's the app developers (especially those of us who've been around for a bit) who read and think and get better. I'm not saying this is true across the board, just that it's common. So there you go.

Re:Is programming really for you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Solving problems in your current QA position is a great way to exercise your ability and increase your problem-solving capability. QA has to deal with many types of scenarios and test cases and solve intelligently which ones to test, and how to run those tests.

With your QA experience and CS background you should be able to land job as SDET. SDET focus more on automation, and creating smart bots to run tests and pin-point weaknesses in software

You can transition to SDE from SDET if you want to. I worked with a few SDETs who created really good solutions as SDETs and moved on to become great SDEs.

You should check with your manager if this path is available to you!

Also, open-source is a great way to learn to solve problems in complex and large projects. I learned to navigate large amounts of source-code by submitting patches for my favorite open-source projects.

Start somewhere else...

[bugg_tb]

I started as a chief photocopier, then moved on to find a niche in Java based BI which was fun for a while, then made the natural progression into Java based programming. The firm I worked for wasn't a tech firm which may have worked in my favour, but they were sure happy with the work I did as my reference said, and helped my progress onto somewhere else more up my street. In the mean time as I'm sure is mentioned above the BI package is open source, so I spend plenty of time honing my skills giving time back to the project.

Apply anyway and make some friends

[cybereal]

So the answer is pretty simple. Apply for the jobs that match your skillset even if you lack the experience. What you will see, if you're lucky, is a company looking to hire someone they can offer a relatively low payrate compared to what they posted but will do nearly as good of a job minus the expected failings of a newbie.

Essentially they get a good deal and you get some experience.

Secondly, make friends who have jobs at programming companies, and make those friends impressed with your skills. Networking is the #1 best way to get a good long lasting job.

I'm speaking from my own experience here. To top it all off, I have no schooling at all. I taught myself. I proved myself to future employers by proving myself to my friends who had friends, etc. I'm promoted every year due to my merits now and couldn't be happier with the way this all worked out.

Good luck to you.

Re:Apply anyway and make some friends

[Admiral_Grinder]

I agree with this one here (sorry, no mod points).

This worked for me. I done a lot of programming in my college classes, but when looking for a job I still applied to some jobs even though I didn't have the years in. I knew I had the skill set for it. There are several reasons that companies may not post entry level jobs, and my be trying to get somebody that can hit the ground running. Your future boss will still look at your resume and decided if hiring a greenie will be cost effective.

Look for companies that are open source friendly, or a using a lot of open source tech. It is these types that are more willing to let you on.

I didn't do it, but I do agree with being a open source dev. Don't try to do a lot of projects but pick a few and be good at them. This will also help you in learning the tools of the trade (debuggers, code repositories, and various other tricks).

Work hard at a small company

[icepick72]

Small companies pay programmers with no experience, likely substantially less; however it gives you the opportunity to get your foot in the door. Additionally small companies often develop a breadth of experience because you are required to take on many roles. For a developer this might mean developing across multiple software layers and getting involved in many aspects instead of being slotted into one focused area. Small companies don't have the stability. Be ready to give a lot. Years later you can take a lot back after experience is built up. This is only one option but is viable.

Open Source

[cirrustelecom]

Start writing for an Open Source project in your off time and get some credit. As an employer, it would show that you can work well with others and that you are self-sufficient and have initiative. I would then show the code that I have worked on in the project as well as any feedback from the other contributors or users.

How I did it (MFA to Tech Support to Programming)

[h4ter]

I got a non-technical post-graduate degree and now I'm a programmer. Only took a couple of years to get my first programming job. Here's how I did it.

First of all, I did as much programming as I could at my tech support jobs. Not all of it was company sponsored, but if I figured out something I could write that would help *me* do my job I would write it. I wrote all kinds of little things, and then I was able to truthfully add to my resume that I developed software.

I was also going to user group meetings for the language I was using most and meeting people there. I ended up getting my first job (and all subsequent jobs, actually) through people I met at those meetings. At least for the language, city, and time I happened to be in, the meetings were filled with people who knew about more work than they could take. And the recommendations you can get there are worth "2-5 years of experience" on a resume.

I'm currently helping my company's QA guy get some programming tasks so he can make the switch and give his job to some other poor CS grad. Is there anyone on the development team where you are that might help you out?

There's one more option: recruiters. I know they're not great, and the jobs you get through them aren't all perfect, but there are some recruiters who can help you market yourself without the exact "2-5 years of experience" someone's looking for.

One last thing: If you're any good at all you'll be way ahead of most people in this field. If you can get an interview, showing your abilities and desire to learn can be enough.

Good luck.

Build your resume with non-full time jobs

[OctavianMH]

Search places like craigslist "gigs" for short term projects!

People post "simple" short-term projects all the time, where as an entry level candidate, you can stand out by offering a competitive rate (think 40$ / hourish...rate too low = people won't take you seriously). Be a good communicator on how you'd solve their problem, and you'll likely land a few of those gigs.

Remember to search in big markets like NYC or the Bay Area, and tailor your resume to highlight the skills you have that apply to the job!

After three or four projects like this, you'll have company names you've "consulted" for on the resume, and bigger outfits will start taking you more seriously.

I truly believe that companies like self-starters on the whole, Showing "deliverables" and industry knowledge for ANY client is far more important that an uninterrupted full time job crawl.

the employment game

[circletimessquare]

your summary speaks of an expectation that the rules of employment are hard set in terms years of that, experience with this, etc. not that a lot if not most employment opportunities do work in the way you understand. however, you'll find that there is a lot of wiggle room out there. some relaxation of requirements comes from a wildly unprepared employer, belying an unpleasant work experience. other times requirements are relaxed and gambles are made simply because you are in boom times, or its really hard for some reason to find prospective candidates, due to all sorts of factors

its not formulaic. you can spend 10 years ratcheting up the job ladder to get to a pay scale and job experience that you could have gotten if you had just gone to a few more interviews 10 years earlier. nothing is guaranteed, everything is chaotic. you'll find (and probably have already found) that your coworkers differ dramatically in skillset and effectiveness. its always like this, and there is a certain level of salesmanship and misrepresentation and misperception going on in every job interview

you'll also find some people will join a company, then leave after a week, if things are not to their liking. so don't feel skittish about taking a risk on a promising job, and then leaving if its not what you though it would be. and go to a lot of interviews, simply to see what is out there, and to build your interview skills, and don't be afraid to fall in love with something and put a lot of effort into it to see your chances uptliamtely dashed. the reward for your short term pain is long term gain
 

Career Path?

[Korbeau]

QA ... QA-Lead -> Team-Lead -> Manager -> ???

Most programming jobs tend to go to management jobs anyway. Well, not entirely, if you're a "real programmer" in a niche they might pay you very very well and keep you doing "real programming" - if that's what you seek I suggest you to definitely quit your current job and look somewhere else, even if it means starting at a bitter salary.

But your experience should matter anyway, if you have your degree plus 2+ years of QA I'd say go for those job offers that require some years of programming experience ... if you're confident in the skills you've earned so far don't mind bidding higher, and if you've done some programming tasks don't hesitate to put them on your CV as well!

At my job I know that a lot of QA guys in some teams have created amazing tools and scripts that help the whole department. If you can express that in your CV or in an interview you're as good as any new programmer that has done data entry for two years.

You're only as stuck as you think you are

[CresmondRoo]

Most workers rarely get credit for doing what they're really good at. Most developers hardly ever get a chance to show what they're _really_ good at. But it's really a matter of working with people who will give you a chance sometimes. For every pointy-haired boss who is afraid you might be smarter than s/he is, somewhere else in your company or one down the street you will find somebody who has a problem that needs to be solved. And when managers have a real problem that needs to be solved, and they can't dig a hole and hide from it, they can be amazingly open-minded.

It's called an internship

[grilled-cheese]

The easiest way to break into the software development industry is to simply be an intern for a small to medium sized company and do a good job while getting along with people. If you make yourself an integral part of their development team, they would be foolish to let you go.

Re:It's called an internship

[Tablizer]

do a good job while getting along with people

But this is slashdot

     

Look for a job of an SDET

[wild_fire1979]

You could use the QA experience to your advantage. Since you have a QA mindset you will make a great SDET (Software Dev Engineer in Test). An SDET writes code to test the code written by Devs. This involves writing service level automation frameworks. Test tools to make automation tasks easier and also UI level automation. Such a job allows you to keep your QA skills and at the same time showcase your coding talent. If you show enough panache for being a coder, you can make a move as an SDE which is a much easier transition than going from QA to SDE. Plus SDETs are paid nearly at par with SDEs. Companies that you should be looking at: Amazon Microsoft Research in Motion Real Networks Google. Another way is to join consulting firms like Volt which allows you to work as a contractor in Microsoft. If you do well and get recognized, you can apply in MS and get selected. Hope this helps :)

Re:Look for a job of an SDET

[Anonymous Coward]

Real Networks? Are you serious?

Re:Look for a job of an SDET

[wild_fire1979]

They do have some decent QA contrary to what other ppl think :)

Sounds eerily familiar

[uberjack]

Because I was in the exact same situation, when I received my BS in 2001. In fact, I even ended up getting a Master's Degree, while I continued working in tech support to make some cash. In a lot of ways, I enjoyed my older job a lot more. As someone who wanted to be a professional programmer (and was a hobbyist programmer for years), I was severely disappointed in my job. When you do something you don't enjoy, programming can be the dullest career possible. As someone who enjoys coding for the PSP in my spare time, I find my job (writing ASP.net apps) mind-numbing and just plain obnoxious at times (hell, I don't even run Windows at home). I urge anyone who has similar issues to think carefully about their career choice. Unless you land a job that you know for fact you will enjoy, consider existing opportunities. As a tech support person, I usually had time to do hobby development. These days I'll be lucky to check my RSS feeds in the morning.

Re:Sounds eerily familiar

[Trevin]

I was in the same situation when I graduated in 1991. In hindsight, I probably would have been better off if I had decreased my academic workload and gotten a part-time coding job like a lot of my classmates did. Instead, I took all the classes I could to finish college in 3 years (with AP credits + a summer term), and ended up with a degree but no work experience. It took me years to find each of my programming jobs, due to both my lack of experience and also market trends.

Two of the jobs I did eventually get were because I had relatively rare niche skills that the companies were looking for (MC680x0 assembly language programming). I developed that on my own for personal projects, and was able to demonstrate the programs I wrote to the employers, which in that case counted as experience even though it wasn't "paid" experience.

The last job I got, I started out doing system administration and later moved into a programming position when an opening came up. In this case I already had several years of paid tech support experience plus Red Hat administration both on the job and at home, so that got my foot in the door.

So my advice is to focus on the type of programming you want to do in your spare time, whether it's for your own projects or a community open-source project, to keep your skills up to date. Then keep an eye on job openings, and when an opportunity arises in the direction you want your career to go, grab it.

The right attitude.

[Lafe]

I hire programmers.

I hire entry-level programmers. For what it's worth, the last couple I've hired have been from India.

I look for a couple of things when I'm hiring entry-level. The first is experience. I'm not talking about professional experience, you won't have any of that yet. But what have you done? Have you done an internship? What have you done in your spare time? What have you done on your own? Can you demonstrate useful skills? Can you debug a program?

The first thing I'm going to throw you into if I do hire you is maintenance. Find a bug, fix a bug.

It's about attitude. Technical competency will be low at your level... but do you know how to find out what you don't know? Do you know how to research a problem? Do you know how to find an answer off the internet? Do you know how long to work on a problem on your own, and when to ask for help? When I show you how a certain thing is done, can you watch me once, and then pick it up?

Most programmers are bad at interviews. Most stink at writing resumes. So it's mostly going to be about other things. If you can make friends in the right circles. If you can get a recommendation from someone I've heard of. If you can show me that you have hunger and drive to get ahead... then I'll hire you in a heartbeat.

I'll keep you on if you don't mess around, but dig deep into the problems you're given. I'll be delighted if you bug me for answers when you need them. I will gladly explain concepts if you'll gladly listen and run with what you've been taught.

I only get so many openings per year. I've turned down folks for the wrong attitude most of all. I've turned down folks with professional experience if they kept a narrow focus and never ventured out of their comfort zones. I've passed on people who believe that programming is something like FrontPage, and that they shouldn't have to work hard, or understand much, to make a cool application.

I guess, mostly, I look for people who would be programming something even if they weren't getting paid.

Is that you?

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are in US or UK, I want to work for you. Will you apply for my work permit?

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, that is me. I have been learning on my own for 5 years and have done many projects with linux and windows. Most projects never got finished but there was some very valuable code written and knowledge gained. I learned C++ and other languages because I want to be successfully in life and happy with what I do. I love programming. You can reach me at adamobenhofer@gmail.com I live in the U.S.

Re:The right attitude.

[jeremyp]

Best comment on this thread so far.

I try to avoid hiring programmers who don't do any programming in their own time. The reason for this is that programming is hard and people who don't like programming tend to find it tedious and they get bored and their code is rubbish as a result.

If you have done no programming in your time as a QA person, then I think you are probably making the wrong decision to go back into coding. You won't enjoy it.

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Conrad]

If you are in US or UK, I want to work for you. Will you apply for my work permit?

We've investigated this in the past for the UK and we think it's virtually impossible - or at least extremely difficult - to get a full work permit for a foreign national for an entry-level developer job. If you've just studied here then you can get a year or two to remain in the UK after your degree - I forget what that's called - but after that your best bet is the Highly-Skilled Migrant Programme which you apply for yourself. You basically need to prove that you have a good degree and evidence of earning power.

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you're a technical person doesn't give you an excuse to not develop person skills. I've worked in industry and the good developers have good communication skills and can get requirements from customers on a one-to-one personal basis. This whole stereotype that programmers are pale people who sit in a dark room all day cranking out code while shunning people are pure fantasy. If you're like that then you won't last long in a professional environment.

Re:The right attitude.

[NeoSkandranon]

That strikes me as a little ridiculous.

I like programming just fine, but I code all damn day, 5 days a week. Why should it count against me that my interests are varied such that when I get home, I want to do something else?

Re:The right attitude.

[geminidomino]

There's nothing like working as a programmer to kill any love of off-hours programming as a hobby. =\

Re:The right attitude.

[ErikZ]

Because he doesn't want human beings. He wants programming cogs that fit into the machine.

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I guess, mostly, I look for people who would be programming something even if they weren't getting paid."

I am not a programmer (network infrastructure) but this rings true. When I got my first real IT job after getting a degree when I told my brother about the new job his response was: "so basically they are going to pay you for doing stuff you would do be doing at home anyway."
The point is that if you are truly passionate about something, it generally shows.

Re:The right attitude.

[dubl-u]

I like programming just fine, but I code all damn day, 5 days a week. Why should it count against me that my interests are varied such that when I get home, I want to do something else?

Why should it count against you that another potential hire likes the work better?

I'd say it's because I'd expect them to be more productive, more engaged, and less likely to burn out. They'll take problems further, work on them longer, and care about the solutions more. Their outside interests will bring new ideas, create new opportunities, and give them a playground that isn't the production code base.

For some jobs, being a clock puncher is probably fine. I'd rather deal with the grocery store cashier who likes her work, but the ones for whom it's just a job are ok, too. But for serious software development, there are a host of reasons you should only hire the very best people you can get. And part of being the best at something is loving it.

Re:The right attitude.

[Raconteur]

I, too, hire programmers. As Lafe said above, I believe that attitude does make a difference and moreso, a willingness and eagerness to learn. I do enjoy hiring for temp-to-permanent positions, this is a college town and there is no shortage of applicants. Unfortunately, I have had to let go many more than I've retained. The ones I have retained have mostly moved on to bigger and better things with our blessings and best wishes. You've probably heard me say this before, and it always bears repeating. I believe programmers are born, not made. If you experience an epiphany when you discover the joys of coding, then this is the right field for you. Otherwise, if you struggle with it or don't really love doing it... please find another career. I've become quite adept at spotting that spark in potential developers, and nurturing it, and I enjoy my role in that process.

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir an an asshole who wants trained yes men.

Re:The right attitude.

[Anonymous Coward]

This builds on the single best piece of hiring advice I ever received: "Hire for attitude, train for aptitude (skill)" This works well for personal relationships, too.

Yes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I was seeing a lot of the combination of companies not wanting to hire unless someone already had several years experience, and those same companies then wondering why they couldn't find someone with a few years experience (when no one were hiring with no experience.) Some seemed to use this as an excuse for H1B hiring. It's looking like H1B abuse is being reigned in though, both by simple economics and by people w/in the gov't finally realized the large amounts of H1B fraud going on.

          So, I expect the local markets to pick up.

traditionally

[discogravy]

a) work cheap
b) work someplace crappy that doesn't care
c) build some exp with self-made projects (OSS, make your own game, etc)
d) expand the duties of your current position (depends on how viable this is in a particular job, of course, and how receptive they are to it.)

alternately, you could make your skills attractive by hitting up the keywords they want to hear (php, perl, scripting, java, c, whatever)

Start talking and programming

[lowvato]

If you like the company that you are in start programming your own tools and solutions, let other people use them. There are tons of things you can do in QA along those lines. Also, it is important to start talking to the software engineers. Most companies like to hire internally if you can exhibit some capability.

two words

[thockin]

OPEN SOURCE

Get online. Find a project that is vaguely interesting to you. Hack on it. Subscribe to mailing lists. Post on forums. File bugs. Read books. Write cool programs. Get some experience.

Never give up! Never surrender!

[fluffynuts]

I know *exactly* where you are coming from, having finished a programming course about 8 years ago, and having to deliver pizza (hey, a job is a job!) whilst waiting on the people who ran my course to find me a job (as they had promised). Of course, they started demanding the money for their course (which they were supposed to extract from the people they got me a job with... catch-22 deluxe).

Long story short: you should first see if there is some way you can relocate within your current company -- if they are forward-thinking, they will try to help you "be all you can be"; if they aren't, you're better off somewhere else anyway. Which brings me to the other point: you will have to accept the first programming job that you can find, irrespective of pay, or even environment. If you can prove flexibility, it doesn't matter where your programming roots are: a good company will realise programming talent irrespective of development environment. Take this from someone who initially had a side-course of C on a Chemical Engineering degree, which lead to taking a focussed programming course in COBOL (yes, I know, horrid stuff!), which landed my first job doing VB, which got me my second job doing ASP (and then PHP), which prepared me to work for myself for a while in TCL/TK, PHP, ASP; on to a job in primarily Delphi, and then on to a C++ position, now a C++ / "whatever I want to use" position. Of course, there were helpings of SQL, shell scripts, Python (yum!) and Perl (scary!) along the way. I'm quite sure I've forgotten at least one...

I know there will be people who object to such diversity. But hey, it's worked well for me. I have a good idea of programming principles and which tools will deliver what benefits to my current project.

College isn't just for studying.

[jrhawk42]

Social connections are vital for getting a job unless you have some other remarkable skill that's going to land you a job, or you happen to stumble upon a company during a hiring phase. Most of these connections should of been made in college, or in QA over the past couple years. Since you haven't made any of these connections I'm guessing you're an introverted type that tends to go unnoticed. I would suggest doing more to be sociable, and make a likable impression on people. Don't be clingy, and don't be judgmental these two things ruin social interactions. Eventually you'll find yourself moving in the right circles if you have the ability to actually become a good programmer.

Networking, BS, and Talent

[Anonymous Coward]

Knowing people who know people is tremendously helpful (especially if you're like me and you'd like to skip that whole 'entry-level' thing entirely). I'm 2 months away from my BS in Computer Science and I'm 6 months into a senior programming/management position at a startup. I got the interview by knowing a guy who knows a guy. I got the job by knowing enough technical gobbledygook to wow the bigwigs. I kept the job by being good enough to back up my interview bs.

Re:Networking, BS, and Talent

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this up. As long as you actually have some skillz and you're willing to throw the time behind your (somewhat BS) pitch and promises, this is a great way to get started. You'll still have to learn a bunch of things and do some shit work, but it won't be in an "entry-level" position, with people who refer to it as "entry-level", and treat you like you're just "entry-level".

You just have to demonstrate aptitude, insight, and a capability to deliver a solution which is significantly more complete and worthwhile than any exercise you completed in your CS courses.

Welcome to my world

[Prikolist]

Yea it's retarded. Have the same situation, I'm an engineer though. And to those of you speaking of internships, I did apply to a bunch but got no answers, same as with my job application. The only interview I ever got was for a marginally related position (like QA in your case), but I didn't even get that. Find a better major, sadly, that's what I'm doing, four years wasted and $10k in loans with no job to pay them off.

Re:Welcome to my world

[Tablizer]

sadly, that's what I'm doing, four years wasted and $10k in loans with no job to pay them off.

Whats worse is that business lobbyists are spending millions to convince Congress that there is a "shortage" of programmers so that they can bring over more slave-like visa workers. Chaps my hide to think about it.
       

Re:Welcome to my world

[locus_standi]

Blaming a free market economy is not the right mindset in today's world. Talent is still respected here in America. If you are competent, you will be hired.

Re:Welcome to my world

[Tablizer]

Blaming a free market economy is not the right mindset in today's world. Talent is still respected here in America. If you are competent, you will be hired.

It's not a free-market, but a rigged market. Our cost of living is more expensive because we have regulations that protect us from pollution, electrocution, etc. The imbalance between cost of living makes it cheaper to hire 3rd-worlders.

Anyhow, I've seen a decent developer get replaced by H1B's because the citizen developer was slightly more expensive and also had some minor "interaction" problems.

Further, the *stated purpose* of the H-1B program was NOT to replace C citizens with A visa workers. Your political philosophy may say "that's okay", but its still not the stated goal of it.
   

Lie

[martin-boundary]

Hide the QA experience by telling them that you really worked as a developer in a finance house for the last few years, but you're too ashamed to give details. They'll understand ;-)

spin

[nomadic]

Spin your resume to emphasize coding skills. Did you write scripts in your QA job? Even if it was a 3 line batch file, put it in. If you coordinated with programmers in your job, put that. Did you do any debugging at all?

If you can come up with a halfway decent program on your own time, try to do it. Throw it in your cover letter, and offer them the program and the code. Don't worry about open sourcing anything, this should be your own code, and it should be clean.

ways to gain experience

[Anonymous Coward]

msg suitable to freshers.
http://lunchgossips.blogspot.com/2006/11/getting-experience-before-getting-job.html

move to India

[Anonymous Coward]

lots of jobs there.

Don't ask me,my career never started because of it

[CrazyJim1]

If you can't get hired in the first year of looking, it makes it even harder to find a job because employers assume there is something wrong with you. I've only worked in a programming position for six months in the past six years I've been out of school. And nooooooo one wants to hire me because of it. I'm not crying myself to sleep though. My family is happy to support me, so I don't need money. I just keep working on my personal projects. Right now I'm wrote a 3d fighter that can have over 1000 people in the same room. I'm considering making it into a 100 level deep dungeon crawl like Angband crossed with a 3d Zelda. Its not easy, but eh, some people aren't lucky enough to get a job in programming.

Write Code.

[jcr]

Write code that interests you, sell it or give it away, and build up a body of work that you can point to.

-jcr

Re:Write Code.

[pifmag]

JCR gets it right. And to the question the original post posed: "What kinds of companies hire programmers with no prior experience?" The answer: All kinds of companies - provided you show a passion for what you do, have some interesting pet projects you can point to, and think critically about problem-solving. When reviewing candidates for our openings, I rarely look at the education section of a resume. I instead focus on, in this order, (1) the pet projects a candidate can point to that they feel strongly about (and if they're not work related, that's better), and (2) how long (or short) of time they've spent with previous employers. To me, if you love doing what you're doing, you'll do it for free. And if you're willing to do it for free, you'll find a company (like ours) willing to pay you to do it eventually. Just stick with what you love.

Re:Write Code.

[javaxman]

Write code that interests you, sell it or give it away, and build up a body of work that you can point to.

-jcr

I'll second that, as well as the suggestions to
- get a SQE-type job, coding unit or API tests and
- look at small companies and apply for those lower-end Programmer jobs anyway.

Those things are what I did and... well, actually, after programming for a good long while I'm now a QA manager who does quite a bit of tool-and-test coding and playing mentor to more "junior" programmers... pays better than my last programming gig, whatever you think of QA work.

Anyway... the truth is, many companies "lie" in their job descriptions, especially in terms of years of experience they'd settle for. Less than 3 years experience on a job advert means they'll consider your QA work, especially if it includes some programming of some kind somewhere.

The problem with too many years of QA work is that, eventually, the hiring manager will wonder if you really can write code of your own, or if you really desire to... they'll wonder why you didn't get a programming gig at some point, and you'll have to convince them that the last program you wrote wasn't for a CS class.

Ultimately, to get that programming gig, you need to have written code on projects that produce something you can talk about or show off. JCR says to write code that interests you; as with all things in life, that's going to be what you enjoy and are more easily successful in, so it's great advice. If you can also write code where you work ( even if it's less interesting to *you* ), that's good to do, if you remember it and count it as programming experience on your resume and in interviews.

The important thing is to gain experience writing code, if you want to convince someone that's what you have experience doing. Write code at work, on your own, or, as many suggest, as part of an open-source project... however you do it... write code... have something to talk about in your interview besides test plans and button clicks.

QA? I was worse...

[Comatose51]

I ended up doing IT out of college (between the first Internet bubble and the Web 2.0 one). I did manage to convince the IT department that a few custom scripts/programs here and there would be helpful to their operations. Still, 75% of my time was spent moving computers around, helping people with issues, and graduated to managing servers. That, however, made me really hunger for programming so I ended up thinking up projects on my own and coding them. I learned web related programming and AJAX when it was relatively new. I would create games for fun, etc. Finally I got a call from a recruiter at a company that I admired and applied for the job. I told them what my situation was. I told them a good part of what I know I learned on my own and that I was looking for the chance to really learn to do software engineering, not necessarily better compensation. That attitude probably impressed them quite a bit. Obviously I had to pass all the technical questions and coding tests. At the end, I got hired and that's where I've been for the lats 1.5 years.

Long story short, you can learn quite a bit on your own, enough so that you can get an entry level job in programming. The right attitude helps.

Open Source

[nEoN nOoDlE]

How can you read slashdot and not know about this little movement called "Open Source?" There are tons of projects out there that require programming help, and it's the best way to build your resume up. I'm a 3D Animator and it's somewhat the same hiring circumstance as programming. Nobody will hire you unless you've done something, and the only way to do something is to do it yourself. As a lead, I would never hire an animator who has nothing on their demo reel. All of the demo reel material that people come up with out of school is from projects they've worked on in their spare time. Why would it be different for programming jobs?

I found a start-up company

[shawnmchorse]

I didn't even finish my CS degree, and now have a decade of work experience programming. My first company was a small start-up that couldn't afford to pay much and was willing to accept my insistence that I could do the job they needed. Yes, my salary started at $30k. Two years later at the same company, it was $45k. And with that two years of work experience I found a job at a new company... for $75k. It worked for me, at least!

from a manager

[jaydonnell]

I've been hiring programmers for a few years now and here is what I can tell you. 1. don't be afraid to send your resume to a job asking for 2 years of experience. Most applicants are absolutely terrible! I've often waited 6 months just to get one good resume from a programmer that wasn't asking for a ton of money. 2. Build something. Build something in your free time and put that on your resume. There are many times I would have hired someone in a heartbeat if they had simply done this and could talk intelligently about their project (for an entry level position). 3. aim for smaller companies if you are having a hard time getting hired. They don't use HR departments that filter resumes based on buzzwords and x years of experience.

Re:from a manager

[Anonymous Coward]

I've often waited 6 months just to get one good resume from a programmer that wasn't asking for a ton of money.

You are obviously a cheap bastard who doesn't value his programmers. I don't care what you think a programmer is worth, salaries are determined like any other cost: supply and demand. If you can't find a programmer for six months, supply is low and you need to give them that "ton of money" they're asking for. If they're not willing to work for less, that's because they are able to find higher paying jobs elsewhere (demand for them is high).

The alternative is for you to be without needed labor for six months (which will slow down production, which will cost you money) until you find someone who doesn't know his true market value, and will leave you as soon he finds that better paying job (after you've invested money training him in your stuff).

Apply Anyway and have a portfolio

[Eskarel]

Employers in general, and in the US in particular, are, for the most part, totally crap at writing job adverts.

They write up things they'd like as opposed to what they actually need, and guess what, they don't get them.

When I first graduated, I saw a job looking for someone with 5 years experience with .NET. At the time, even the educational version of .NET had only been out for about a year and the commercial version had been out for about 3 months.

Since this company was not paying well enough to steal developers away from Microsoft, and wasn't anywhere near Redmond, one must presume that their eventual candidate did not actually have these skills.

Most employers ask for way more than what they're going to get, and in most cases more than they actually need.

This is particularly the case for people in entry level jobs, they want a guru for intern pay, and it's not going to happen.

Try for everything position you think you can do, be willing to take a pay cut if you have to in order to get your foot in the door, and have some good clean code samples to provide if you're asked.

When I was fresh out of Uni I did the same things you did, but I've since learned, that if you don't try you'll never get anywhere, and, especially when you've still got a pay check coming in, the cost of throwing out resumes is pretty much nil, and the rejection isn't so bad.

You should of course, as others have said, also make sure that folks in your own company know you want to move up in the world, and take whatever opportunities you can get your hands on internally. Even if the job isn't exactly where you want to go, moving up will make you look a lot better on a resume than sitting on the bottom for years.

Re:Apply Anyway and have a portfolio

[Anonymous Coward]

Lie! on resume, but not necessarily in the interview if you can avoid it, tricky but easiest way. Also think outside the box. think about working for a non-it company as a programmer, believe it or not, financial firms, law firms, medical firms sometimes hire their own and sometimes pay better and less stress, better bennies. for instance i know of two IT directors, early 30's and mid 20's, no college degree. people just go getters and sell what they can do, learn, not let what they don't have (prior experince, degree) hold them back.

Work for free

[Tablizer]

You need to get some real experience that you can use as a reference. Put an ad on Craigslist or the like to program for free in exchange for a reference. You'll have skip the $ for a while, but it takes money to make money. You still have your QA job, right?

I've had to low-ball when changing languages in the past in order to get that experience for reference. It goes with the profession (unless you are a good liar with a lots of liar friends).
   

Here's what I did.

[mabersold]

I got my degree in computer science and began grad school, but dropped out after one quarter. Not having had any real world experience, I felt like I was up a certain creek without a certain instrument. I began to use a local placement agency (one that specialized in tech jobs) to find a job in the Seattle area, and after a few searches I found one that looked interesting. No, it was not a full-time job, it was an internship, but it was a development position with an up-and-coming company that would, at the very least, get me some real programming experience. They offered me the job and while I got very few benefits and a fairly low wage, I took it anyway. I worked in my internship for an entire year without being offered a job. However, I made a very good impression with the company (this is important). After my internship ended, I accepted a QA job contracting at a different company. I did not enjoy this job at all, but stuck with it and kept in touch with my former employers from time to time. Finally, an ideal full-time programming position opened up at the first company, I interviewed, got offered the job, and happily accepted. It's been over a year since then and while I still have a lot to learn, I have a full-time development job and I love it. At first I did not like the idea of accepting an internship because I already had a bachelor's degree, but in retrospect, it was the best decision I could have possibly made.

Apply where I work....

[Anonymous Coward]

The last 5 hires my boss has made are all worthless. I'm sure with a CS degree, 2.5 GPA, and lies about your vast Java (and J2EE) skills on your resume, you'd be hired on the spot. Last posting on the bulletin board for the H-1B types with J2EE was 87.5K.

Reply here and I'll find you and send you an email.

I dont understand

[JimboFBX]

I work in QA and I do plenty of programming of multiple varieties. I'm A CS graduate 1 1/2 years out of college. I can see where your coming from, in that QA work isn't exactly solving mathematical problems, and often involves "plagiarizing" someone else's code (i.e. from another department who had to work with the product before you did). However, it can also be a lot of black box debugging, and forces you to look over your code and check that it works before you call it "released". Its not exactly the skill-set I prefer, but the fact I consider myself better than some of the people who've been here for 6 years already show I possess the skills to get good at another type of job, even if the skills for my current job are, IMO, stuff I learned in AP CS in high school.

Another question is- what kind of QA? Does your job title contain the words "engineer"? Are you writing programs for hardware that tests an object or code for test programs? You shouldn't have to worry about much if it does, QA is a very common entry level position and getting out of it is usually a matter of simply other positions opening up and less to do with your own skills.

And this isn't a dupe, QA is NOT the same as tech support.

tech support...

[Anonymous Coward]

when I got out of college with my CS degree I couldn't find an entry level programming job at all. I had plenty of interviews, a few site visits event, but never any offers, and it was always because I did not have any out of school experience.

I ended up getting offered an assistant manager position at the bagel shop where I worked, I was happy because I made my age and then some, (salary = my_age * $1000) but I soon found that I was not getting as many interviews as I once did.

I ended up quitting my job to go work at an inbound technical support call center for residential dsl... my take home pay was cut by 33%, and life pretty much sucked, but I got the experiece to get me noticed.

After less than 3 months at the god forsaken job I got hired by a local startup to do their technical support. Every now and then they let me do some programming, and after a year I was a full fledged Software Engineer.

So basically what I am saying is in my experience you need to go to as many interviews as you can, even if you don't think you have a shot at the job, and take a crappy job in tech support if needed, it sucks big time, but sometimes that will be the only way to get your foot in the door

Resume spam

[PathologicalLurker]

People in this business move around so much there's always a ridiculous amount of recruiting and interviewing. Until you have a real resume with real experience, just play the numbers. Send out 6-10 resumes a week. You'll find someone desperate enough to give you a chance.

These days I'll let my network know, cherry pick a couple of openings to apply to and if I get desperate, put my resume on Monster. I got my first programming job by working for free and only stayed in the game by resume spamming when times were bad.

Try recruiters. I get contacted by recruiters every few months asking if I know any junior candidates. It's always a possibility.

How I got into the game industry

[VirexEye]

Right after graduating I managed to get into the game industry as a programmer. The trick?

Internships!

If you look on craigslist (I'm in the SF bay area so your mileage my vary) there are tons and tons of postings looking for cheap/free programmers in the form of internships. You gota put in your time there instead of putting in your time in QA.

Since you have been in QA a few years, you should talk to your manager about moving on to a jr level programmer position in your company. If they are willing to work with ya, problem solved. If not, time to move on ASAP.

Re:How I got into the game industry

[Exanon]

I can vouch for the parent answer. It's about internships and worksamples.

I got an internship during my third/final year. An internship - I think - is almost like a year-long work sample where you can, over time, show the company what you can do. If you don't get hired you can usually get a good reference.

Also, worksamples are king. Someone at that particular company told me that "a degree only shows you can pull off an education. Doing something completely on yourself and _finishing_ it, is a lot more impressive". So, make a small demo, doesn't have to be mega-fancy. Do something as simple as tetris but put an extra little feature in there. Maybe port a common app to another platform, cross-language ports are also cool.

In the end, it doesn't have to be big or beautiful, but it has to be _done_.

Re:How I got into the game industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I maintain that it's far more rewarding to simply write a game. It's not *that* hard to do it, you can beg, borrow or steal a physics engine that will make it look impressive, same goes for models, as long as you never release the thing into the wild.

If you're gonna work for free.. don't work for someone else. Write a 3d, sophisticated game, take a laptop to the interview, invite the interviewer to play it.

Re:How I got into the game industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Right after graduating I managed to get into the game industry as a programmer. The trick?

Write a graphics demo in your spare time!

I wrote a terrain renderer in my spare time at the end of my senior year. I invented a rasterization technique specific to rendering terrains. It was kind of buggy and there were weird rendering artifacts. But on a 66 MHz Powermac, it rendered a terrain at about 30 fps. I explained the algorithm to the programmers at this small game company. At the time, it demonstrated that I had more knowledge of 3D graphics than they did (this was many years ago when most companies still made 2D games).

Having something that you can show on a screen that demonstrates talent, creativity, and drive can get you a programming job, in or out of games.

Move up in your QA job by writing automated tests

[mgl]

From your current position in QA, see if you can get permission to add unit tests and other automated tests to the Developer's code base. Introduce the developers who aren't writing tests to Test Driven Development.

Or....

[Fluffeh]

Find some aliens who are about to attack earth and need to come out with some greeting to earth. Maybe something along the "Hello world." lines. For some extra features though, you may want to include translation software back that can understand when a human says something along the lines of "I for one welcome our new overlords..."

I for one welcome our...

Transfer within your current company?

[il dus]

Why not move from QA to dev in your current company? You (should) already know the product, so moving over internally will be a lot easier than switching to an entirely new place where, not only are you an entry-level developer, but you also don't know the product and the internal processes.

Apply At Cerner in Kansas City, MO

[Anonymous Coward]

they'll hire you

Government or other Big Company

[cdavis.7m]

Most smaller companies can't afford to hire someone without experience. Big companies like defense contractors or the Government can afford to hire newbies and train them. I got a job straight out of undergrad working for the Navy with a BS in Computer Science. I can stay here for 4 more years and then move around once I am "experienced". But, there's something nice about telling the contractors what to do.

Plenty of development work in QA

[foeclan]

I never did get a CS degree. I started off in technical support at a printer company (had to be able to rip a laser printer apart and reassemble it and have it work before I could touch a phone, so I find most tech support these days insulting), then got into QA at the same company.

Once that company laid me off, I got into QA at StorageTek, where I wrote test tools in C, Perl, and various Shell scripting languages. I was doing development there, too, before they closed our office.

From there I got another QA job where I wrote more test tools and automated a lot of tests (C, Perl, Java, various shells). They pulled me out of testing and into development, where I spent the last 4 years.

Test tools and automation worked for me as a gateway out of testing and into development. Talk to your manager. Let them know you're interested in a development role. On your resume, play up your skills, not your job title. If you're not doing much programming in this QA job, use it to get into another QA job that does call for it.

A few thoughts

[Zo0ok]

I work for a company currently recruiting developers. I will share a few thoughts with you.

First, you should talk to your boss and say that you would like to get more challenging tasks than just the QA you do. The company should encourage you to grow within the organization. If they do not encourage you, or if you do not have that kind of relationship to your boss, you should leave anyways.

Second, a few years in QA is a merit for a programmer I would say. I think a few years in operations is an excellent merit to. There are so many programmers who just write code without seeing it being deployed, maintained or really run. The important thing is that you have kept your programming skills up to date.

Now, too many years in any position can indicate lack of ambition (but switching all the time is even worse). Participation in Open Source projects is one way to show extra ambition and knowledge. What is also very good is running your own business: i.e. building (web) solutions as a consultant.

How enthusiastic are you about coding? If you are a programmer, you do not stop coding, even if you have another job. If you have not coded for fun in your spare time, maybe you should consider another career (perhaps in QA instead).

Stuff I've figured out

[Anonymous Coward]

Improve yourself:
- Start a personal project, spend most of your free time on it. Make it something you are passionate about & do it right. Use it as a code example. Release to open source if reasonable.
- Only other thing you can do with your free time is contribute to open source. Again, useful as a reference or code examples.
- Start going to local user groups for your preferred languages. A *lot* of jobs are filled in right there & never make it to the job boards.
- Look for & attend the next barcamp in your area.

Cast your net wider:
- Be willing to relocate
- Look for small businesses that need contract work done
- "Good" companies are almost always hiring if they can find a good candidate. Don't be shy about contacting some.
- Talk to friends about job opportunities
- Be willing to contract
- Don't apply for stuff

Realize also that with all the volatility in the market right now, it is a bad time to look for a new job. A lot of smaller places are going into survival mode.

You Probably Need to Stretch the Truth

[moore.dustin]

Tailor your resume for each job you are applying for and stretch the truth where it may help you. You should omit any and everything on your resume that does not make you sound like a complete and total badass. If your QA job is not glamorous, then write very little about it. Less is more in this case. You should not lie outright, but instead, describe yourself and skill as you are and can be, not what is 'technically correct'.

Face reality. Resumes just get you in the door so you can get an interview. The idea should be to get the interview and then it is up to you and what you know. There is no getting around that. Fibbin a little on your resume to get an interview is no big deal, but you cannot be lying in your interview though. You better be able to back up what you put on your resume, but just because you were not able to get a job programming does not mean you do not posses the skills. If you know you have them, convey them however you can.

Many people will want to do things by the book, like you seem to want to do. Truth be told, that will only get you so far and in many cases, not very far at all. You need to be a salesman for yourself and you cannot make your pitch unless you get in front of them. The interview is key, you need to kill it. Be confident and personable. Talk about them more about you... people love to talk about themselves. Be conscious of your body language and make eye contact. Treat the interview as if you were interviewing them as much as they were interview you and you should even tell them as much, they eat it up!

Remember, people with skill sets get jobs, not skill sets alone. Companies do not interview to find the right skills, instead they want the right person. Know it.

real easy: work on open source projects

[Anonymous Coward]

All our last several hires we have done have been directly due to their involvement in open source projects we are directly or indirectly interested in.

So, find an open source project which you really like and actively work on it. It matters less what the project is than to find one that you can be passionate about and get fully involved.

If you can't find an open source project that really brings out your passion for development, it's probably not the right career field for you.

East Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Come work in East Europe. Not yet touched by the crisis and a lot of employment opportunities. Indeed, no company in IT succeeds to hire as much as they would want.

This seems to be a comon problem. My advice...

[__aasyaa1156]

Sorry if any of these suggestions are repeats... it's late and I'm too tired to read through all these comments. I've known a few people who have had this problem as well, so, first of all, I hope you don't feel like you're alone in this. Breaking into that first job seems to be a pretty common problem for programmers. My advice is to do one of the following: 1. Apply with companies that are willing to hire programmers fresh out of college. These are few and far between, but there are some out there. 2. Find a job (or internship) at a company with a small IT/software development department, and work hard to prove yourself. On a small enough team, you will rise quickly. 3. Get involved in some projects. I noticed some other replies mentioned open source projects; I can't speak to this personally, since I've never been involved with one, but I guess every bit helps. Also, if you're confident in your abilities, bid on some jobs from websites like Rent A Coder and Elance, and work on them in your spare time. Make sure this is all listed on your resume. For my part, I was fairly successful with suggestion #2. I landed a position with a small software department (about 15 people) a few months out of college as an analyst (job duties included defect analysis, level 2 support, and writing user docs). I ended up playing a key roll on a few projects, and was eventually promoted to software developer within a year. The company I work for now (based in Troy, MI) actually hires quite a few people out of college, although I was offered my specific job because of my skills and experience. Some other things you should be doing: 1. Make sure you have an up-to-date, well-organized, professional-looking resume. 2. Make sure your resume is posted on sites like Monster, CareerBuilder, and Dice (especially Dice!). If you know your current company's HR department uses these websites, you may want to make it private and apply for jobs individually. Otherwise, make the resume public, and update it often to keep it near the top of search results. 3. Network with people in the IT/techonlogy industry. Posting on forums is one great way to do this. Also, If you don't have one already, I highly recommend signing up on a website called LinkedIn; it's a social networking site aimed at business professionals and job-seekers. It is a great way to meet people in your industry. 4. Keep your skills up to date! Sign up for free newsletters and magazines. Find online articles and tutorials. Get books related to specific development platforms or languages you're interested in (popular publishers include O'Reilly, Wrox, and Microsoft Press). Build applications in your spare time. Do whatever you can do get exposure to what interests you. As my old boss once told me, you should "know a lot about something and a little about everything". Get exposed to as much as you can, but try to focus on one or two key technologies or areas. People generally focus on one specific development platform, like Java, .NET, or LAMP. My first job gained me some exposure to Delphi and ASP classic, but it was my .NET and SQL Server skills that had the job offers coming in once I started looking. Again, make sure all of your skills are listed on your resume. (On a sidenote: If .NET is your preferred platform, I suggest learning both C# and VB to a decent level of understanding. From the job postings I've seen in the past, their usage seems to be split pretty evenly. Most recruiters or HR people are comparing your skills with a list they were given; they won't know how similar they are or how easily it is to move from one to the other.) I hope these suggestions were helpful. Keep in mind that sometimes we have to work jobs that we don't consider to be the "ideal job", but that doesn't mean we have to stop looking. Stay positive, and you will eventually find what you're looking for. Good luck!

Lateral moves.

[bigtangringo]

Since there's a QA department where you work, it's probably safe to assume there's a development department. Talk to your manager and the manager of the development team, see what options are available for you to move toward programming at your current company.

This is probably the method with the lowest barrier to entry.

Re:Lateral moves.

[Shados]

Most companies won't let you do that. Why? A good QA is a -lot- harder to find than a good programmer. We only have one QA where I work, and at this point, she has gathered enough knowledge and skill to be a senior architect or maybe a business analyst. They won't move her, she's the only QA we can get. She's already QA-in for 3 teams on her own because we can't find anyone else worth their salt.

So she gets the shaft. The guy who submitted the article is probably in the same situation. All "good" QAs are.

Re:Lateral moves.

[bigtangringo]

If the company you're at won't work to keep you, find another company looking for a QA person that's more open to making the move you want.

Re:Lateral moves.

[Shados]

And then it will take another year or two before you're in a position to move up, and by then, that company will be in the same damn situation (unable to replace the QAs), and make the same decision.

Oh, some companies will be different. All 3 of em. Good luck finding them. Its like that with everything. I've seen a guy (in his late 20s) who was hired as a cobol programmer, with the promise he'd be promoted to a .NET or Java dev if he proved himself for a bit. But a cobol programmer with modern technologies knowledge (especially useful for interop with newer systems) are extremely rare, so they never wanted him in another position. He eventually had to quit, and he did all that for nothing.

Repeat for all similar scenarios.

better than that

[www.sorehands.com]

Write a virus program that you can upload into the mother ship. Then fly up there in case of a problem in the upload.

Once you succeed at that, you now can use the president of the united states as a reference, that will help -- unless it is GW.

BTW. Don't be obsessed with the fat lady.

Stay right where you are!

[shaitand]

Everyone wants 2-5yrs for entry level because the economy is shit and there are millions of people out of work.

If you have work now then hold on to it and hold onto it tight. If you can advance at employer you have now then great. If you lose that position you aren't even going to be able to find a job at a gas station without experience. It doesn't matter if a trained monkey could do the job, when there are people with 10-20yrs of experience doing that job are desperate enough to take entry level, you are screwed.

Re:Stay right where you are!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone wanted 2 to 5 years for entry level long before the economy went to shit.

Re:Stay right where you are!

[shaitand]

The economy has been shit for a long time now. Don't be fooled into thinking it is about mortgage securities or the bubbles that are just starting to pop now.

It used to be 'experience preferred but will train the right candidate'.

Advance Laterally

[cowbean]

I was in the exact same position, in 2001. Graduated with a CS degree into a difficult job market, found a QA position after several months of looking. While there I did pick up on some odd jobs like cvs maintainer, random programming bits, but it was clear the company wasn't going to move me into full time programming. I ended up taking a job at another company in professional services / account management. Seemingly a step back from the technical career path, but I was hired as the technical resource on accounts, handling integration work. Hence, in retrospect a lateral move. While there I worked very closely with the engineering team, but for a few years advanced my career more in line with professional services. Fast forward a couple of years, I was doing full-time account management, traveling to meet clients... and decided I wanted to be a programmer instead. Thankfully I'd kept up with my programming skills even in a non-engineering side of the company, and was hired into an engineering position at another company. Point is, don't be afraid to be creative as to your position and career path, just keep honing your skills and interests. And just from a personal POV, get out of QA.

Uni?

[Shemmie]

I really got lucky after graduating - I was offered a job at my Uni to work in the School of Computing, developing the little bespoke applications they needed - if you've got contacts at your Uni still, send out some feelers, see if this is do-able. They normally pay under the odds, so you get your training on the job as it were, and voila.

Been there nearly 2 years - looking at other jobs now.

As a side note, fully agree with parent - if you're .NET learn both C# and VB... the jobs that seem to believe them to be completely separate entities is huge.

are you willing to move?

[blackcoot]

and are you a us citizen? if the answer to both is "yes", then you should take a look at the various major defense contractors (lockheed martin, boeing, raytheon, northrop grumman, etc.) i know lockheed has about 50 odd entry level positions in denver open last i looked (two or so weeks ago). the large programs really prefer associate engineers and engineers because they tend to be relatively cheap compared to the staff and senior staff engineers.

Screw internships

[Loki_666]

As a project manager and coordinator for a software hours certainly i dont undervalue my QA people and praise their work highly... but still, i understand your desire to become a developer.

Personally forget internships, its just slave labour. You need to get out there and sell yourself. So what if the advertisement says 3-5 years experience required? Show them you have experience with QA which means you have good experience of reviewing bad code and fixing bugs and this has helped your own development skills increase...

What have you been doing all these years with your programming skills anyway? Been letting them atrophify (how do you spell this damn word?)? I presume you have been developing things at home, making the odd contribution to small projects etc???? If so, you can claim this as some form of experience and show this.

Learn how to get interviews. This is a real skill that can only benefit you. If your resume is crap you will never get an interview. Dont go crazy on buzz words.... i see too many buzz words on a CV/Resume and i throw it in the bin. Focus on achivements and your strong points. If you can get an interview then you stand a chance. At the interview take some (good) examples of code (there should be one technical guy on the interview panel otherwise be scared). If they will allow, fire up something you have developed on a computer. Tell them you are ready to sit down to a technical exam to prove your expertise. Dont look desparate but show willing.

Hell, there are more advices than i can fit in a slashdot post but i can tell you 100% that if you dont apply just because all adverts demand x,y,z then youll never get a job.

Let me break it down further with regards to adverts:

Essential = We really want these but if a good candidate appears we will let some of these slip.

Desired = We know nobody in the world has these skills except for the last chap that is quiiting the company but we thought we would request anyway.

Other = What the hell, some extra buzz words cant hurt.

As someone who has been involved in many recruitment exercises i can tell you i'd rather take a person lacking the essential experience who is willing and hard working (and a dev with QA skills is just pure gold!) rather than someone who has experience but does not look like a team player or is too arrogant etc. Plus probably get the inexperienced guy a little cheaper as well :-0

Last point, and sorry for going on and on...
Why go for masters? You got a degree and this got you nowhere in the end... what for to get another degree to achieve what? I had the same problem when i left university. Degrees mean you can pass exams, not do good work. Start somewhere small and build up.

Re:Screw internships

[Loki_666]

Sorry forgot one point... you have a foreign language? If so, make sure you let them know on your CV. It is a world market out there.

Have you considered applying for jobs in other countries. I can tell you from personal experience that people willing to work in different countries always get a second look from people filtering CVs (unless it is a computer doing it) and raises the curiosity and interest of reviewers. Plus once you get the job you will be viewed as a special resource... trust me on this, been there, done that, got the t-shit.

"Need" isn't the right criteria.

[raehl]

The question is, what is the most efficient way to produce bug-free code?

Sure, you can take your top-quality programmer, and have him do everything. But that's the least efficient way to do things. Your top-quality programmer can churn out 80% perfect code with 20% of his time. The other 20% is the hard part.

It is FAR more efficient to pay one programmer and two to three QA folks to debug that code than it is to pay one programmer to make his code perfect and one QA guy to debug it.

And that's setting aside entirely that on any significant project, you have 5, 10, 20, 100 programmers, and you need the QA guys just to make sure that it all works together right. Programmer A writing perfect code and Programmer B writing perfect code doesn't mean their code combined works at all.

Re:"Need" isn't the right criteria.

[raehl]

I pulled it out of my ass. The actual number is going to depend heavily on the particular task at hand.

Re:"Need" isn't the right criteria.

[autophile]

The question is, what is the most efficient way to produce bug-free code?

Not to write any code?

Re:"Need" isn't the right criteria.

[aevans]

It makes defect *discovery* drop by 95% for sure. Because everyone is worried about code coverage, writing meaningless unit tests for getters that shouldn't be there in the first place, but got added because your pattern nazi in the overlong code review insisted it and everyone else just wanted to go to lunch.

Re:"Need" isn't the right criteria.

[Anonymous Coward]

you test getters and setters one by one???

I was in the same boat. Here's what I did

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in the same boat as you until just recently. After getting a BS in CS I got a job doing something completely unrelated to computers. After 5 years I wanted to get into software development. I succeeded, but it took a few months, so don't get discouraged.

The first thing I did was get on monster.com and studied the kinds of qualifications people were looking for. I felt comfortable programming C/C++, OpenGL, and windows programming using MFC, but it seemed like most employers were looking for C#, .NET, and J2EE experience. So I bought a bunch of O'Rielly books and started studying. To help myself learn I made up little projects to do in the new (for me) languages. Eventually I felt comfortable enough to list them as qualifications.

Next I bought a book on how to write resumes. I picked a format that used a Summary of Qualifications section since my work history wasn't much help. I posted a resume on monster.com listing my new qualifications and started getting e-mails and phone calls from a bunch of headhunter agencies. Almost all of these felt pretty shady. They seemed more like telemarketers than anything else. Apparently a lot of these guys just run searches for resumes with the right buzzwords and then cold call people without really understanding the job requirements or technologies involved, hoping to get a quick commission.

I also went to a couple of job fairs but they seemed fairly useless. I'd stand in line waiting to talk to an employer, and at the end he'd say something like "yeah, we're always hiring people with those qualifications. Why don't you go to our website and check out our openings?" If it's all online, what's the point of a job fair? As far as I could tell most of the employer representatives at the job fairs were generic HR people who weren't associated with any particular project and didn't really know very much.

One good thing did come out of attending a job fair. One of the fairs was run by DICE, which apparently is kind of like monster.com. To get in the fair, I had to give them a copy of my resume, and they scanned it and put it in their online database. I got a few calls from people who found my resume there. But I could have just posted my resume there without attending the job fair at all.

So eventually I got calls from actual software development companies and eventually I went to some job interviews. Oddly enough none of the companies I applied to online ever contacted me. The only calls I got were from companies who found my resume on DICE and Monster and called me first. The first two interviews were for fairly large employers. They were deeply concerned with my five year gap in experience. I think in their mind I was worse than a brand new graduate. At least new graduates could be expected to have it all fresh in their minds. I assured them (truthfully) that I had been programming on my own throughout those five years and that I kept myself up to date. They were not impressed. I guess I can't really blame them since I had no documentation or work experience to back up my claims. In retrospect I wish I had gotten involved with some open source projects while working at my previous job. That would at least have been something I could point to to prove that I had experience.

My third interview was for a much smaller company with less than 20 employees. The guy who called me was the leader of the project they were working on. We talked a while about the project and it turned out I had some of the qualifications they were looking for but not all of them. I was honest about all of this and at the end of the conversation I hung up thinking they'd probably never call back.

Well, to my surprise they called back a couple of weeks later and asked me to come down to interview. I guess they were having trouble finding someone who had everything they needed. Due to various scheduling conflicts we set up the interview for about two weeks later. In those two weeks I bought

SDLC

[Anonymous Coward]

You should have good knowledge of the software development life cycle, but you will still need to show your technical skills. Have you tried getting into the development team for your current employer, if they do development then surely this would be the easiest way to get into development. Also keep learning development skills, maybe think about certification, it wont give you experience but will show you have a willingness to learn, and should show a good level of knowledge in the core parts of the language your certification is in.

Code for small businesses

[Anonymous Coward]

The way I did it was to work for a place whose core business was not software or IT, but needed custom software and IT help to accomplish their mission.

In my case, it was working at a print shop. You can be the "hero" and do some really great work without worrying that they'll judge you to harshly since they think you're working magic. As long as the network was up and print jobs were going from designer workstations to printers, I was free to code up the dreams of the shop owner. I got up front "real-world" coding experience, and the owner got a bargain on custom development.

However, this approach will not teach you a lot about the rigorous side of software engineering (unless you're mega disciplined) and don't let the hero thing go to your head. Write some code, solve the problem, understand what you wrote and why it works...then put it on your resume!

Done.

When we look for people

[Alkonaut]

When I read applications and interview developers, work experience is not really that important. At least not for young applicants. After 10 years of doing something els, I'd start questioning whether you are motivated, but a few years doing the wrong thing isn't the end of the world.

I usually check academic records to look for anything odd, for example if the candidate needed 6 years to finish a BSc that would be odd. Reading applications when applicants are scarce, is basically a matter of finding a reason this guy should *not* come to an interview. Could be glaring holes in academic records, sloppy spelling or something else. In later years, nearly everyone with the correct academic qualifications are contacted for an interview. If you feel that your previous work experience is keeping you from interviews, then do whatever it takes to make it look better. Exaggerate whatever creative role you have played, and try to leave out stuff that does not help you.

Next, at the interview, we just reason with the guy (it is always a guy, sadly) about programming. If you can reson well with me for an hour about programming in general, and some specific programming problems, You will probably be hired. If you can show me a hobby project or something that you have coded, then that is more impressive than anything you could have written about your work experience. It shows that you have a genuine interest.

We would never let an HR department of non-programmers, or a recruiting company get the first chance to filter candidates, that too is really important.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I became a web developer

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my story:

I was in a similar situation. I got my state university CS degree and got my first job out of college as a game QA thinking I cracked into the Game Industry. After a little more than half a year, I realized I wasn't in the right department to get an opportunity to become a game programmer.

I expanded my opportunities by starting up an online company with my friends doing web development work. This was the first time I got into web development. I realized I needed more experience so I started picking up contract work. At the same time I got a part-time job working as a free intern on the weekends. Working for free really pushed me to interview for paying jobs. Eventually I got a few interviews and an entry level job in a small marketing company.

My situation at that time:
- I was living at home (so money wasn't a big deal)
- I worked so many hours made it hard on my relationship with by girlfriend (we're married now). I didn't have a life outside of work.
- I came out of college right after the Internet bust
- I knew I needed experience
- I knew I needed references

Most programmers don't consider web development "programming". Honestly, I thought the same but it pays the bills. I think it can be possible if you're persistent and willing to make sacrafices. Who knows, if I listened to myself I could've been a game progammer :).

Start from the bottom, on your own if need be.

[trackstr777]

I'm in a pretty similar situation as the submitter, I just have taken a different path that's worked well for me. I started coding in PHP about 5 years ago as a recreational thing, for small projects I was interested in creating.

Eventually, I realized the money in freelance, and spent junior and senior year of high school doing freelance for hire. I didn't have any bills, so working on projects with a $200-300 payout, and at times larger projects near $1000, it was good money. I learned how to be self-sufficient and not need others to solve issues that arose in the course of programming.

I eventually wanted to move out of freelance to something more steady, and finally got hired doing basic development work for a small firm (4 people) of young developers. The pay was terrible, but it was a great environment and let me get some in-house positions on my resume rather than all freelance.

While working there, I started part-time at an internet startup I found on oDesk.com . Online freelance sites aren't great, but oDesk seems to have a pretty high percentage of North American employers willing to pay North American wages to North American developers, and it's worked out for me. At this job, I was slightly overpaid for my position, got great experience in a large scale website. They over time moved me to one of two remaining developers, with higher wages, until they self-destructed about a month ago.

I'm currently looking for a job that lets me work around my school schedule which is proving difficult, but I think I'm about to start ANOTHER long-term position working at home from oDesk, with a more established company. While I'm working towards my Bachelor's degree, I'm making more money than the average developer a year or two out of college with a Bachelor's degree, working at home, without any degree. The primary reason is that I have a body of freelance and in-house work on a variety of websites that I can showcase to new employers, along with some rock solid references from successful people running their own businesses from home, in most cases.

The bottom line is that to get hired, you have to prove you know what you're doing. Internet entrepreneurs have slightly more lax requirements than your typical in house position, but both value results, and seeing that you can do what you say you can do. A degree doesn't always show that; a portfolio does. Obviously I'm a bit biased and jaded because that kind of experience is more critical and easy to showcase in a web development background, as opposed to desktop development.

Even so, many of the same principles ring true. Work on open source projects or freelance projects. Take work in technologies you aren't terribly familiar with, strive to learn new technologies and master more areas of your language(s) of choice. Stick with a scale of project that you feel you can comfortably handle, but don't sell yourself short or convince yourself you can't do a given job. I got an early start and the return on investment has come a bit earlier in my case, but it's not too late now. Immerse yourself in the code and technology you love, firstly for the personal accomplishments that probably drove you to a development career to begin with, but then also for the personal gain of wealth for using that knowledge for someone else's pet project. It works.

Here's what you do

[unixtechie]

Here's what you do:

• (1) The main method: you simply lie. Recruiters do not ask about your last place of work (as it might endanger your position), so you simply lie about it. You invent job duties RELEVANT to your desired job knowing noone can check, really. Of course, you review necessary things not to sound absolutely stupid in the interview, but that is as simple as another exam, you passed scores of them when studying

  (2) You talk to your friends and create fake references. Generally your employer (or rather a "security" firm that checks references, or the HR department) check them not to find out your qualifications. Nope, what they need is (a) to confirm the story you presented in your papers and the interview, they do not wish to see contradictions, and (b) the main thing, to find out if you tend to get into conflicts, or sue, or have other character traits that would make you an inconvenient slave in their well-run stable of insipid corporate serfs. (that, by the way, is why you never talk about any conflicts during your interviews). So cheating with fake references is not that hard. Your reference should simply tell them in a good-humoured tone that you haha were sleeping in the office when a manager pressed all of you guys with some managerially invented deadlines and came up as a "winner" finishing just in time. And that you are a great guy in general.

  (3) You should not hesitate to do as described or be ashamed of that because EVERYONE IN AMERICA LIES. When they advertised for a person with experience and spruced up the job description THEY LIED, because in reality they will be content with much less, it's simply a hiring tactic to scare off complete tyroes. When Java was just beginning to make it, I saw them advertise for Java developers with 10 years of experience in big projects, I laughed until my stomack began to hurt. You do sound so young exactly because you take the words of corporate whores at their face value. They are not nice people, they are there to run you as a workhorse for God's sake.

  (4) and, well, after this stream of cynicism (and trust me, it's fully justified by my own experience and by many other people's - we gave references to each other, embellished and invented work histories to then, after getting the job continue working successfully and becoming first-class engineers), so after this wave of cynical reasoning I can also give you a way how to get real experience and real respected reference/qualifications for a better job in development. WORK ON AN OPEN SOURCE PROJECT and then legitimately use your contributions to support your resume.

Good luck to you (from an IT guy with about 15 years of experience in the field)

Do you code or just have a degree?

[spagthorpe]

I would apply to the 2-5 year positions. If you REALLY can code, debug, etc, then go ahead and do it. You don't even want to know how bad some interviewees are. I've had people with 5 years on their resume that don't even know what a linked list is. You're going to get some programming questions in the interview, so only you know if you're up to it.

The problem is that most CS grads really don't know how to do anything when they graduate. Really good friend of mine graduated near the top of his class in CS, but would freely admit that he didn't know where to start when writing software. Not someone I would have hired.

In my case, I was self taught on an Apple II back in the day, and used to spend my time writing games. By the time someone asked me if I could code anything, I was proficient, and I had been working for years as a programmer without a degree. They didn't care about the paper, but more if I could do it. Truth is, I never even got a CS degree, but an engineering degree in another field. Didn't matter though, I code in my sleep.

Even when I'm not at work, I still keep sharp hacking on things I find fun. Doubt I'll ever stop.

What kinds of companies hire inexperienced program

[jprupp]

Microsoft?

I did it.

[Xest]

But I was coming from a different path from you, however if anything you have an advantage.

I didn't go to Uni or get a degree but worked in tech. support for 7 years starting when I was 18. I've always liked programming and have done it since I was young, and whilst I have now nearly finished my degree having done it full time alongside work the important thing to realise is that you have to be able to show you're a good programmer and a degree by itself wont cut it. If you can do it the 2 - 5 years thing becomes irrelevant as I was able to get a few interviews with a good CV and then outshine many candidates who had been programming for years.

If you can demonstrate on your CV not just a long list of languages but that you understand the fundamentals of programming and can work with any language thrown at you, if you can show you understand not just a UI API like Windows forms but how to build one from the ground up and hence how to work with Swing through to Windows forms through to MFC's Windowing classes for example then you're in with a good chance of getting that first interview.

The difficulty is you have to know these things, you wont be able to blag it so put some work into learning everything you can. It may be a year before you're ready, you may not be able to move straight away. It's probably worth working on some open source projects if you can.

The payoff is that if you do put in the time, effort and energy a lot of firms will care little about your experience but the fact that you have demonstrated all the way through that you can do the job and with such a good understanding, possibly even do it better than people who have been a "programmer" for years but only know Java and will use that language for everything even when it's simply not the right tool for the job.

do it for the love of it

[allgoodnamesaretaken]

You have to want to do it. That might sound obvious and you might think you already want to do it but really try to be honest with yourself: If you like programming, chances are you will become a programmer. Start by writing software for yourself, in your spare time, THIS IS EXPERIENCE. If you don't enjoy doing it for your own curiosity, you definitely wont enjoy doing it for someone else.

Just like everyone else...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lie.

Ideas to put into practice for experience.

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs I've run into in the past will ask for the moon and hope they get it. The reality is that it doesn't always work that way. As one said, you can be charismatic, you can be a dang good salesman (the product is you), or you can take the defeatist attitude in which case you never will land a job you desire.

There are several other ways you can get some experience. Do part times for a job agency, in addition to what ever your job is now. Tell them you are only interested in programming. I doubt they have many of those just laying around. You can contract out to some third party programmer, that does contracted maintenance of programs. I knew of one such that did this for the oil field. He would travel to offshore locations, with cell phone and do the custom installs and upgrades for the office.

Another thing you can do is develop programs of your own. Crap make them free on the net for folks. The idea here isn't so much to make money but to gather data that shows x amount of people have downloaded your application and use it. It won't make you money at first but it's a sure sign of experience, in lieu of what some company hopes to get.

Re: Getting Hired As an Entry-Level Programmer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Visit this site, there are many top programmers who post on the forums there. It's more games programming orientated though, don't know how you feel about that.

http://www.thechaosengine.com/

Good luck with your job. =)

agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

small companies and something, anything, that shows interest and ability to converse about that interest. big/medium companies will filter...my 50 year old housemate who applied to google and had a successful interview eventually got weeded out because he didn't have GRE scores to fit into their hiring/ranking algorithm.

FOSS is a good option

[kcramakrishna]

Option-1: Start with contributing to an Free software proj. This also has the added advantage of choosing which platform you want to start with. Eg. if you want to go for desktop apps, try GNOME, KDE. if you want to go into web apps - look at Java, J2EE, php apps on sourceforge. You can look at rubyforge for contributing to RoR projs. Once you have decent experience, you can showcase this and get a decent job. You can count this experience in addition to your test experience. Option-2: Apply to smaller less established firms or even some of the large Indian IT firms - TCS, Infosys, wipro. They should consider your application. You can mention during the interview that you are looking to get into development as soon as possible. They might start you on testing but move you to development soon. Indian cos. are flexible that way.

Re:You're too stupid to deserve a job anyway.

[OneSmartFellow]

Bad hair day ?

Re:You're too stupid to deserve a job anyway.

[ChameleonDave]

Bad hair day ?

Nah, just having trouble with drivers on 64-bit Kubuntu Intrepid beta.

Re:Don't ask me,my career never started because of

[cerberusss]

If you can't get hired in the first year of looking, it makes it even harder to find a job because employers assume there is something wrong with you.

No, they just assume that you're someone who is okay with leaving things the way they are. While they were actually looking for someone who is active and can set priorities.

Contribute to free software projects

[drange_net]

If you've got the time, use some of your spare time (or at work) contributing to free software projects of your will. You will find lots of projects on SourceForge, pick one of your favourite language and start developing. When written properly, a thing like that can count as a programming job on your resume. It also counts as a major plus for companies that are into free software. YMMV, especially if you're a bad coder!

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

49% skills 51% personality.

Look for help from friends and family who are willing to vouch for you as a great guy and a hard worker to someone they know at the VP or hiring manager level in the industry.

Apply anyway

[puggsincyberspace]

I apply for any of them, they say 2 years experience, but once they realise what people wih that experience are asking they some times settle for someone with less that can show some telent.

I managed to get a Job programming Java while i was in the last semester of my Master of Technology (Software Enginering) mind you it was $AU20K less than what i was getting in my casual fill in job and $AU35k less than what i was getting before being made redundent from my IT support role. A year later I more than double my income when I applied for a new job.

In both cases I took along Assignments from my degree and a sample (screen shots, discriptions) of projects i worked on in my Master and as private projects. The employers where impressed by some of the past work, even though it was not commercial experience.

Also if posible do some research on the technology that they use, so at least you can show that you know what the technology is, and that you have taken the time to find out.

Bost most off all, keep applying...

Re:You're too stupid to deserve a job anyway.

[OneSmartFellow]

Well, that'll teach you for playing with an inferior distro. ;~)

Just Do It

[JerkBoB]

One big mistake that a lot of people make is in assuming that they should wait around until someone tells them what to do.

Look for things that need to be done, and do them. This could be Open Source projects (I personally know lots of folks who have gotten started on successful careers this way), or just finding stuff to do at your current employer.

You work in QA? Figure out ways to automate things, improve test harnesses, data collection, etc. etc. How deeply do you understand the product(s) you're testing? Do you just read docs and test plans? Read the code, too! Understand what's really going on. You can learn almost as much (probably more, at first) from reading others' code as you can writing your own.

Alternatively, you could just bluff your way into a junior development position and sink or swim. That's probably a bit higher stress, and you run the risk of peeing in your own Cheerios if you are in a small community.

In any case, just do it. Also, do it while you're young and single. That's the time to be ambitious and driven. It's a lot easier to put in 16-hour days learning your craft when you don't have to worry about anyone else's needs.

Spend your spare time coding - and love it.

[mrthoughtful]

The problem with degrees is that they are out of date, or that they are focussed on academic directions. In the end, when we hire new coders, we look for practical experience, not work-experience; and we look for coders, not academics. This is why we use tests - a degree will get you a long way - but in the end it's being able to refactor a complex logic structure without causing side-effects, and knowing how to write a set of unit tests which will demonstrate robustness. All of our key programmers can deliver a good 1,000 SLOC of C++ (I'm only attempting to give you an idea of the order of magnitude here - I know that SLOC is no good measure) in a day without breaking into a sweat; and all of them got to be like that because they love to write code; even working in it, many of us still program in our own time.

Two Words: Open Source

[RunzWithScissors]

There are a ton of projects out there on Sourceforge, pick one and dig in. As a hiring manager, this is something I looked for in candidates because:

1) They could get the pre-requisite experience without having a job as a developer
2) It showed they enjoyed software development
3) It displayed showing initiative, which is something a lot of candidates lack

Best case: A company sees the project and wants to sponser it, making your project your full time development job

Worst case: You spend some time working on a project that goes no where, but you now have some real experience that you can tout on your resume and in the interview

Added Bonus: You get to talk in the interview about the open source community, your participation in it, and maybe on how that experience can also benefit your perspective employer.

Plus you'll be able to brag about your software to friends and co-workers.

-Runz

Re:What kinds of companies hire inexperienced prog

[g2racer]

Just about all professional services firms (such as Accenture, Deloitte, Wipro, CSC, etc) hires English and Psychology majors straight out of college, send them to a 2-4 week training program (where the new hires spend more time socializing and drinking than learning) and you have instant IT developer...

College career fairs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm driving to Columbia, SC today to attend tomorrows USC Career Fair as an employer. We're hiring entry level programmers, straight out of college. If you've got relevant work experience, that's a bonus. If you can convince me you've got the right attitude and can still code & fix bugs, I'll bring you in for a full interview and probably hire you.

If you don't have a connection w/ USC, then try your alma mater - most (all?) career fairs allow alumni to attend, and most career centers support alumni jobs searches.

Hope to see you there!

The answer isn't to lie

[Sycraft-fu]

It is to match buzzwords. For example if they ask for experience with TCP/IP, make sure you have that, not network experience. HR is often, literally, just matching buzzwords. They look at the requirements list and make sure the words are in there.

So it isn't a matter of inflating anything, it is a matter of having the terms they want. Now I realize there are postings out there that are just plain silly/impossible but the majority aren't. The answer isn't to try lying about it, just make sure that someone who has no idea what they are talking about, which is what you have with an HR person hiring for a technical job, can see matches.

Think about it like you were trying to hire, say, a commercial artist. You know nothing about the field (if you do, pick another one for this). You also can't research it. So you are given a list of requirements and a stack of resumes and told to filter out the ones that aren't qualified. How do you go about it? Well you probably start off filtering out the ones that are just crap, poorly written and such. However what about requirements? You don't know anything about the field, so how do you see if they have what you want? Check for terms most likely. The requirements sheet says you want X, if they have X, they go in the good stack. Now maybe it turns out Y is another term for X. However you don't know this. So people that have Y get tossed, because you just don't know they are qualified.

Well, that's how it is with HR people reading tech resumes. They don't know that "network" pretty much implies "TCP/IP" these days. So put the one they ask for, not whatever you'd call it. If they are super specific, then you be specific. IF they are general, you be general. The person doing the initial filtering won't know when something is the same as something else.

Re:The answer isn't to lie

[barzok]

For example if they ask for experience with TCP/IP, make sure you have that, not network experience. HR is often, literally, just matching buzzwords. They look at the requirements list and make sure the words are in there.

Which is why going through HR is a dead-end on job searching.

It's all about networking (people, not Ethernet).

Re:The answer isn't to lie

[Sycraft-fu]

True, that is always the better way to do it. I've only gotten one job cold, all the rest were because I knew someone. However, you don't always know people, and sometimes there's a job out there that you want. People can and do get jobs cold all the time.

So while it isn't the easiest way to do it, it is doable. If you are doing it, one of the important things is buzzword matching. Heck it's even a good idea if you do know someone. It isn't as though having an internal reference means everything happens automatically. There's still bureaucracy in a lot of companies that has to be obeyed.

I mean you want to tailor your resume to every job you apply for (like making sure the skills you list are relevant). This is just one more thing to do as you customize it.

Re:The answer isn't to lie

[PitaBred]

If I don't know anything about it and I should, I learn it. Any HR person that doesn't is lazy. That's the point of their job, to deal with human resources. They don't have to know how to program, but they sure as shit should have a clue about the business they're in, at minimum the terminology.

CS Degree?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last i checked, it doesn't take a college degree to be a programmer. Software Engineer, yes, programmer... maybe associates degree.

I'm having a dejavu

[Reservoir Penguin]

I strongly believe very recently read right here about exactly same situation only last time the guy took a tech support job after college.

I'll second that

[Sycraft-fu]

Even in good job advertisements they sometimes ask for more than they are actually after. Reason is they'd be willing to hire someone more high level and/or they don't want to scare people away in thinking it's a crap position.

One of my first tech jobs in university was like that. The school paper had an ad that said they were looking for a webmaster. My roommate told me I should apply, since I was computer related and I wanted a job. I didn't think so. While I had web experience, it wasn't a whole lot. Certainly not enough to run a site of that magnitude. However, my roommate said do it anyhow, since it doesn't cost anything so I did.

Well I got an interview, then got hired as the assistant webmaster. Turns out that is really what they were after. Old webmaster had left, assistant was moving up, they needed new assistant. However, they didn't want to preclude someone who was real good from coming on as as the webmaster. Had a good enough candidate applied, the assistant would have stayed as an assistant and they'd have hired a new webmaster.

So while I wasn't what they were asking for as a webmaster, and even not ideally what they wanted for an assistant, I was the best applicant they got so I got the job.

Remember that it doesn't cost anything to apply. So if you see a job you like, that you think you could do, apply for it even if you aren't ideally qualified. Might turn out that you are what they are looking for and they hire you/

Re:I'll second that

[winwar]

"Remember that it doesn't cost anything to apply."

Only if your time is not valuable. Sure, it doesn't take much time to send a stock resume and a standard cover letter, but if you need to customize any of it (or fill out yet another application or create an account, etc)....

Re:I'll second that

[Sycraft-fu]

If you don't have a job, or don't have one you'd like, I'd argue that spending your time on applying for jobs is time well spent. I certainly see the time/value argument if you have something you'd be better off spending time on, especially if said thing gets you more money. However that's not the case here.

Freelancing or Telecommuting

[unity100]

Start freelancing on elance asap and build yourself a portfolio.

or,

Work for a software house (from any place) through telecommuting, and build up a past. For this, you gotta choose a good, respectable company, even if its a small business. Can be anywhere in the world, but has to be respectable with a serious portfolio, and a decent employer. Your going rates would start from at most $8-10 hour i believe. but over the course of a year you probably will move up to 15 and 20.

now the thing is, actually when you are established as in the second scenario, you may find that you no longer want to apply for an on-site corporate position.

and in the former case, you may find yourself running your own web-based software house.

Just submit your resume to everyone.

[farker haiku]

I got a job programming at a big company with a)no degree and b)no experience. I submitted my resume and pointed out that I'd contributed to an open source project, had worked with a particular language for a year on my own time as a hobby, I was a fast learner and that I was a hard worker. I got the first job I interviewed for.

One thing I'll mention: HR writes those ads. Most HR people don't know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground. Your QA experience should go a long way in their eyes. In short, just apply for the jobs and you will get one (assuming you have reasonable interviewing skills).

I can relate to that!

[reiybake05]

I just signed up to slashdot a couple of minutes ago, and I was immediately fascinated by this topic. Reason being that Im kind of in a similar situation. I have a Computer Science degree, graduated in 2006, and taught Computer Studies at a High School for pretty much the whole of '07. The jobs I got after that have been Database developer and Implementation Support jobs respectively. Similarly, I had tried to get programming jobs but employers were all looking for years of experience (even the ones that saw small projects I did). The thing is though I enjoy programming, work has been taking so much of time, that taking out time to keep up with personal programming is becoming impossible, meanwhile experience in non-programming jobs keep building up in my resume. I think all the suggestions so far are great, but can I for example, get programmer internship after over a year of graduating? Even then a lot of internships require the applicant to have "excellent programming skills" in language XYZ!!!!!

The Moody Blues

[chazd1]

"Just what you want to be you will be in the end."

Bad advice

[Red Flayer]

just find an unfilled itch in your group and scratch it

Last time I did that, I got slapped with a harassment suit.

Never mind the old IT adage I heard somewhere, "Where there's an itch, there's a communicable disease or infestation".

YMMV, but an itchy IT worker is the *last* place I'd want to put my hands.

MS a waste.

[Anonymous Coward]

A master's degree will certainly help...

No, it won't. Don't waste your time and money.

Re:MS a waste.

[oudzeeman]

It certainly helped me. As a grad student I worked on a high performance computing research project for the U.S. Army. It gave me the equivalent of several years experience in the area of High Performance computing. After graduation, the research project hired me on full time. I did that for a year and took a mid-level SE job doing HPC programming at a large biotech and was promoted to a senior level SE within a year (so senior level after being done grad school for 2 years). You can use a M.S. as a way to get experience in a specific area of computer science (A.I., algorithms, graphics, operating systems, etc) and then look for a non-entry level position that requires specific experience.

Re:MS a waste.

[Anonymous Coward]

It certainly helped me. As a grad student I worked on a high performance computing research project for the U.S. Army. It gave me the equivalent of several years experience in the area of High Performance computing. After graduation, the research project hired me on full time. I did that for a year and took a mid-level SE job doing HPC programming at a large biotech and was promoted to a senior level SE within a year (so senior level after being done grad school for 2 years). You can use a M.S. as a way to get experience in a specific area of computer science (A.I., algorithms, graphics, operating systems, etc) and then look for a non-entry level position that requires specific experience.

I've seen HPC from the Army. And getting promoted to SE only means you're good at pushing paperwork. Something the Army is good at, especially in HPC.

Re:MS a waste.

[plover]

A master's degree will certainly help...

No, it won't. Don't waste your time and money.

Are you just a troll, or are you really that fucking stupid? I hire software engineers, and it absolutely helps me decide. If I have 10 resumes in front of me, a Master's degree in Software Engineering will move a resume to the top of the pile, and the candidate would have to interview pretty poorly to blow that chance.

A Master's degree represents an achievement that can be respected and understood not just by peers but by managers as well.

A Master's degree in Computer Science will also move your resume to the top, just below that of the software engineer. I prefer people who can build applications, and not just argue endlessly about optimizing sort routines, but a CSci degree is also a great choice.

Of course a Master's degree in Fine Art Appreciation will fill me with a sense of pity for your parents, some grudging respect for the slimy salesman who told you that degree would have value, and earn your resume a hallowed place at the very top of my trash bin accompanied by peals of derisive laughter issued by a platoon of my co-workers.

Look for an Apprenticeship Program

[redsquirrel]

They are rare but are designed for your exact situation. I've created one at my company. More thoughts at http://softwarecraftsmanship.oreilly.com/news/2008/7/17/comparing-apprenticeship-programs

You are not an entry level programmer

[patrick24601]

I think what most of these responses fail to address is that your question does not match your headline. Since you have no programming experience no place is going to hire you as an entry level programmer. Luck = opportunity + preparedness. So be prepared. The first day you pick up a book and start working your butt off is the day you are a programmer. All of the tools are out there for you. Despite what all of linux zealots will scream about you will have a much better chance of getting a job if you learn something a little more mainstream right like Visual Studio, C# and SQL Server. Right now ASP.NET developers are in huge demand. I know because I am looking for some and I cannot find them here. Go get all of the tools you need to learn for free at: http://www.microsoft.com/express/ 1. Get Visual Studio Expres web developer edition 2. Get SQL Server 2008 Express 3. Take advangtage of all of the other free stuff MS offers developers. Training videos, etc. Get to B&N or Amazon and get some entry level books. Then you can start calling yourself an entry level programmer. Most important think: Work harder than the guy next to you and create your own luck. That is how I now own my own company.

We Hire New Programmers

[Space]

I have no degree and had no professional programming experience before I started at my current job. I apparently showed enough skill on the programming test alone. That was eight years ago. Now I am the assistant director of the department. We have a few spots open for competent c programmers in the Beaumont, Texas area. We develop in a unix-like environment and occasionally travel. Check out C&D Robotics and call before sending a resume.

COBOL

[Water]

Be willing to code COBOL. That's how I got my job. I took one course in COBOL and stuck it on my resume. I put in about 2 years then transferred to a different programming team in the company that is not a COBOL team.

Internship

[Anonymous Coward]

An internship is probably the easiest way in. After college (BS in CS) I had a really hard time finding a job as a software engineer. I was totally paying for not having any internships. I ended up getting an internship resulting from a career fair I had been to a while back. Once I got the internship I tried to meet as many people as possible, especially managers, and let them know I was looking for a permanent position. At the same time I was applying for any jobs remotely related to my degree on the companies internal listings. Oh, and I kicked but in my internship. It only took a couple months before they offered me a position as an engineer and that $15/hr. internship rate multiplied.

Impossible years of experience

[tepples]

Then, of course, there's the postings demanding 5 years of experience in a 3 year old technology...

I've always read that as meaning 3 years of experience in the technology plus 2 years in its predecessor, such as 3 years of .NET and 2 years of Win32.

Re:Impossible years of experience

[quacking duck]

I wish. My IT manager asked me to review a list of requirements for hiring a consultant. Not only had he gotten Java and Javascript mixed up, 5 years of JSR-168 experience was a requirement (this was when the JSR-168 portlet specification had been accepted as a standard just two years prior).

I'll grant that web and Java technologies aren't his forte and that he was wise enough to check with me before posting it, but it made me wonder how often HR is merely posting the tech requirements as given to them by clueless tech managers...

QA Automation

[DavidIQ]

I worked in QA for 2 different companies for about 3 years. First year and a half was with a company that was sold so I had to go somewhere else. Having been in your same situation, I was fortunate to find a place that was looking for a QA Automation programmer. They use Rational Robot which has a form of VB6 and VBA used for writing scripts. This qualified as an "entry-level" programming position. I was able to get the job, get the Robot scripts to the level they were looking for, and a year and a half later, I moved on to development with the same company. I let the lead developer know of my intentions and was then given a "BrainBench" test, passed it, and am now in development leading my own team.

The company is a small/medium sized business so I'd say you should look for a place like that if you're wanting to at least get your foot in the door. The more you know their software the better your chances are. Look through their code if you can. See how they do things. These types of places like to move people from within (for the most part) that know the code in some way...this saves them time from having to train a new hire.

Oh...and try to start your own project to keep your skills up. This way you won't forget all that hard-earned coding you learned in school and, heck, you should get better at it as you find different and better ways to do things.

Re:QA Automation

[sonamchauhan]

Mod parent up!

To the original question poster:
search for "automation" in this Slashdot story, and pay serious attention to what's being said there.
Programming testcases is still programming... something that you do in your area to give yourself the skills and reputation that software teams like to see.

Act like a programmer....

[JoeMerchant]

Write programs, open source, hobby, whatever. Then, apply to those jobs that "require 2-5 years experience", and show projects you have worked on in the last 2-5 years.

If you're applying to work for me as a programmer, you will be performing a small programming test before being hired. I weigh 60% of my hiring decision based on that test - with strongest consideration given to communication skills, did you understand the problem before writing the code?

Lots of guys with 10 years programming experience leave the room frustrated after an hour (there's a sample program already written and compiling, all you have to do is write additional code to add a couple of features.) Kids with zero "real world" work experience tend to do better on the test for some reason, and they also seem to make more productive employees. We started giving the test when one of these $150/hr consultants with 12 years of experience (in a field that was 8 years old, but he had an explanation for that...) couldn't program his way out of a paper bag, given a month's time.

Results count.

Re:Act like a programmer....

[ErikZ]

I'm not a programmer, I just work with computers to get them to do what I need them to do.

But I'd love to know more details about that test.

Also, I love the abstract artwork on your home page.

College job postings?

[Wasse]

I would recommend two things;

1. Check your college's job postings. A lot of colleges let alumni go through the job postings.

2. Be open to what you at willing to work with. Don't put at the top of your resume, "seeking a job where I can utilize my java skills".

I work for a small software company (ERP software), and we hire 90% of our programmers direct from colleges. We also work with slightly less common technology (Progress Openedge Database, Progress 4gl code, .Net front end). Thing is, we prefer people with little/no experience, because we don't inherit as many bad habits. People adapt easier to coding standards, etc.

So if we don't look for experienced people, what are we looking for? Passion. Work Ethic. Personality. Problem solving, logic, ability to learn. Honestly specific technical skills/experience rates a lot lower.

Freelance

[Anonymous Coward]

Freelance in your spare time. Being able to show examples of your work may be as good as a line on your resume that says you were at company $x for $y years.

If you no longer live on campus

[tepples]

Even though you have graduated, most Universities will help you find a job if you graduated from there.

Is this true even if the university's closest (or only) campus is over 150 miles (or over 250 km) from where you live now? Or do these universities offer job placement even over the phone or the web?

Re:If you no longer live on campus

[JimFive]

The university I graduated from regularly had (maybe still has) job fairs in Chicago, which is >600 miles from the campus.
--
JimFive

QA is better than support.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had the exact same experience... big computer company - deciding that I will have an oppurtunity. Internship in support, now, still stuck in support. At least your doing QA! :P

Write FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

You can join an open source project. Doing so will provide you with experience if not fame, and it'll look good on your resume. Moreover, that way, people can read your code and see that you rock as a programmer.

get experience somehow else

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude
a) believe in yourself, with this, try to apply to jobs that require more experience than you have. Do make impression that you are capable of doing job, do not try to accent fact that you lack experience. Do mention it once, but than show why yo are good for job.
b) Involve youreself in Open source projects perhaps? It will be something many employers would be glad to see, it's experience none the less. Again, when you try to get involved in Open Source, try to get into at least small team and nt be wild single hacker :)
That's pretty much it.

What kinds of companies hire with no prior XP?

[Culture20]

Every company, and no company. They all say 2-5 years to scare away the losers. Employers like entry level programmers because they usually have good documenting skills, are malleable to new methods, and can be paid with peanuts. The problem is, employers scare away the legitimately good (and honest) graduates by saying they want experience and get the liars, whom they have to sift through to find a recent graduate that knows what they want.

Your problem now is that you aren't a recent graduate any more.

Do this

[fatbuttlarry]

Anonymous reader: Work on a project in your spare time. If you can't prove experience, prove know-how. A well written application under your belt will be the experience you need to say, "Look, I've programmed before! Now pay me for it!" A good example is a small calendar app or even contributing to FOSS like Pidgin, GIMP, or even getting involved with bug reports! There's dozens of ways to write code. If you do it long enough, you WILL have 2-5 years of experience! -Tres

Look for the right employer

[Sajarak]

Look for somewhere that will allow you to be a jack-of-all-trades. My second job was as a casual tech support person at a university. While I was there I was able to branch out into a few different fields that interested me, one of which was programming. I was able to display an aptitude for it and a willingness to pick up new skills so that when I returned to them after a year of travelling they re-hired me as a full time programmer.

Universities are generally unable to offer the best salaries so they have to make themselves appealing to potential employees in other ways. In my case, they were less stringent about their requirements for qualifications and allowed me to develop my skills on the job. I've spent the last couple of years bluffing my way through at a software company so the experience was definitely worthwhile.

I don't think it's naive to expect other opportunities to appear but you just need to look for an employer who is going to offer them. And be willing to accept a lower salary in exchange for some good experience.

Cheetah!

[RemoWilliams84]

Here's what you do. You walk in there with a Cheetah right by your side. Sit down, don't mention or even look at the Cheetah. The interviewer will be to scared to ask. Let the Cheetah gnaw on the desk a little, maybe even the guy's shoes. Nobody questons a man with a Cheetah.

Don't give up the craft.

[SilentBob0727]

What was extremely helpful for me was I kept writing code in my own spare time, and set up a local support consulting business, while looking for that first programming gig out of college. I was able to present my down-time work in interviews, which really helped out a lot. It showed that I was ambitious, capable, and passionate about programming, and not just looking for a cushy desk job.

Connections, connections, connections!

[gdad2]

I got hired as a programmer five years into my career by a senior programmer friend/mentor who joined a start-up company. All I had done before that was help desk and sales support. He knew me pretty well (we were longtime drinking buddies) and knew I had the aptitude for it. The company sucked, but working for/with my friend was a great learning experience and set me on a great path. Thanks to him, I'm making twice as much as I would be if I had stayed on that career path, after I put up with working for a shakey start-up.
Therefore, I suggest "playing golf with the right people" is the way to go. Obviously, if golf is not the thing, figure something else out. Try joining programmer user groups and giving presentations. If you look like you know your stuff, they will trust you even if you don't have the resume to back it up.

The Web

[somethinghollow]

Fuck internships. If "trying to pay the bills" got you stuck where you are now, an internship isn't going to help your financial situation. Keep your day job, learn PHP and start freelancing as a PHP programmer. If you need experience tailored toward desktop apps, try ASP .NET instead. The IDE and language are the same you'd be writing desktop applications for. In this day, web apps (especially in companies like Google and Apple) are on the same tier as desktop apps.

Fake It 'Til You Make It

[dhermann]

I spent six months (while nursing a Final Fantasy X and Everquest habit) trying to find a job after graduating with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science in 2001. It's a harrowing experience, especially if you're just searching job sites, firing off a few resumes, and twiddling your thumbs for the rest of the day. Sounds like you've got a mediocre job to pay the bills, which is both good and bad: positively, your depression about being unemployed does not fuel your boredom which does not fuel your depression, but it's very tough to get anything extremely productive done while working 9-5.

1) First off, get feedback on your current resume from a professional, either in IT or HR. If there's some glaring error you've missed or you've got it formatted in Comic Sans (GAH!), no one will read it no matter what you do.

2) Networking is the key. Finding other people and talking to them about how they got their start in IT, what they're doing right now, and if they've heard of anyone hiring entry-level programmers is the fastest way to get a job, period. End of story.

3) You don't need certifications, but they certainly don't hurt. Check your local community college for professional certification classes for cheap (cheaper than the big books or programs) or find an online resource for passing those pesky exams.

4) Never underestimate the importance of keywords. Getting an IT person to actually read your resume is the goal, and standing between you and them is an underpaid, overworked HR person. The IT Hiring Manager gave them a list of skills that they need, and it's the HR person's job to gather as many resumes as possible that meet the required skill list. So what can you do? Figure out ways to get more keywords on your resume. If you're seeing a lot of jobs that require Hibernate or Struts but have never used them, swing by your library or head over to Amazon Marketplace to find a couple books on the subject. Read up and voilà: you can add it to your "Programming Languages" section. Now, the IT Hiring Manager may shoot you down because you have no professional experience with the language and I certainly don't recommend lying about your level of experience (don't bother, they will find out and they will fire you), but getting past the HR person is a big step.

5) Find an Open Source project using technologies you want to work on! There's nothing better than getting intimate knowledge of a new program or methodology by working on the project, and companies using those new technologies need people proficient in them. If nothing else, it's another bullet point under your "Experience" section.

6) Fax your resume whenever possible. It's much more likely to be read since an HR person can't just throw it in a directory and search for keywords.

Good luck!

Stories like this are very common

[walterbyrd]

I could not help but notice how many posts from seeker.dice.com forums, and elsewhere, are of the same nature. Here are just a few recent examples:

http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary

Makes me wonder if tech degrees are worth the time, money, and effort.

Re:Stories like this are very common

[geekoid]

What the hell is a "tech" degree. If you have a piece of paper that says 'tech degree' on it, you have been screwed.

Personal skills is what wins interviews.
Learn to interview, most state and large cities have a employment office. Many of those have interview and resume classes. take them. Yes to get in you need to sit through some course designed to help the person who hasn't ever looked for a profession job to 'wear a tie and bath'. Yeah, it sucks but the interview and resume course are usually pretty good.

Start your own business for the experience...

[SilkBD]

This is what you do... You start your own consulting business and do freelance work in the evenings and weekends as a side job. You get a couple of books in the language you need/want to know, and you start your own little projects to support your business (like a time tracking app, or a billing application, etc...). So now you have a business, language experience, an application, and business experience under your built while still working your day job. Now you goto freelance websites looking for small jobs and gradually grow to larger ones.

After a year or two of this, you'll have a lot of diverse experience in a wide range of areas that you can legitimately add to your resume.

I say this because this is exactly what I did... and I went from a software engineer to the director of the IT department in 14 months because of my independent work and foundation I made for myself.

Just don't call your company something stupid like Jackhole Studios...

Get out of IT?

[walterbyrd]

Really, what other career field requires you to fight, and finagle, and sacrifice, and so on, just for a mediocre job? I see lots of IT jobs advertised that require a bachelor's degree, and experience, for $15 an hour. Even if you get that job, you will just be training your h1b replacement within two years.

Employers don't want Americans. The few jobs that can not be offshored are being filed by "guest workers." And after the election, the situation will get much worse. Both candidates strong support further glutting the field by drastically increasing the number of guest workers.

Just a thought.

If you want to be a programmer, then write code.

[Anonymous Coward]

The easiest place to make the transition is wherever you are working now. Of course nobody wants to take the risk to pay for you to change career directions, and why should they? If you don't have the drive to turn yourself into a programmer then is it really going to matter if they give you the title? You need to:

1) Find anything you can automate by writing software for your current duties.

2) Make it known that you want to become a programmer.

I don't care if it's a hodge podge of Perl, Python, Shell scripts, VB script, etc. It doesn't matter if you're writing build and deployment scripts or tools for your QA team to use. Before you know it you will be the 'QA Programmer', and from there it will be much easier to transition into a full time programming job at your current company or another. I suspect you can find someone on the programming staff to help mentor your ambitions as well. Someone who can answer your technical questions and provide some feedback.

Another tactic would be to attempt to trace the bugs you discover in the QA process back to the code. See if you can solve the bugs yourself.

My advice

[wasabii]

Write software. Then get a job. Amazing!

Start finding excuses to write code for your job

[s_p_oneil]

Jokingly: Ask Microsoft. They keep complaining that there are a shortage of programmers graduating from schools in the US.

Seriously: If you're stuck in a place where no one notices your potential, you have to make them notice it. We have a QA department, and it would help the development department out a lot if they could write code to generate and run test cases. You need to look at what you and your co-workers are doing, think of ways you can help improve it by writing code, and then take the initiative to do it. If you impress people enough, they should notice that you're in the wrong department. If not, it's still actual coding experience you can add to your resume.

When I started my career as a developer, they stuck me with system testing for nearly a year, and then they gave me the horrible job of writing documentation for a monster of a project that had absolutely none. They thought it would take at least 6 months, and they heaved a huge sigh of relief because they could drop it on the new guy and not have to document their own stuff. This was back in the Windows 3.11 and NT 3.51 days, and I surprised them by writing an ODBC project (ODBC was new to them at the time) to scan all the DBase tables and indexes they had, and then generate RTF pages for all of them with hyper-text links already built into them. Then I created a description table and asked various developers to fill in descriptions (since I was new and there were no docs, I had no clue what was in those tables), and we had documentation good enough to send to customers in a few weeks. They were very impressed, and after that started giving me better tasks.

Did you tell your Boss?

[sportster]

If you are good at your job and work hard without whining about you current tasks or job description, then tell you boss you want to get more involved in other areas. Workers with talent and desire are hard to find and will naturally get moved into more important roles.

Remember your time in school

[Ankh]

Many people include the years they were at University as part of their experience in various programming languages.

For example, if in your first year you learned OCAML, and that's 5 years ago, you have been programming in OCAML since 2003.

This means that any good interviewer will need to narrow down exactly what your relevant skills are, of course, so don't exaggerate and never ever tell an outright lie on your CV. In some (usually large) companies (and in some countries more than others) that can be grounds for dismissal without notice even 15 years later. But do remember you can include open source work and your university courses - they are every bit as relevant as the experience of someone who did not go to college but spent a couple of weeks reading "Lean Perl in 21 days" and then decided to re-write the aircraft navigation system ;-)

Screw Entry Level

[santiagoanders]

Go to Grad School!

QTP - QTP scripts - scripts - python - X

[Dix]

1) Get into QTP (or Robot or similar)
2) Volunteer to do the scripting
3) Extend tests by calling out to non QTP scripts - very useful and powerful.
4) Write these scripts in Python
5) You are now basically there ... but you could go on to C++ (to selectively improve performance of Python modules) or Java via Jython, or .NET via IronPython
6) Oh: yes, and ... Profit!

PS: you're QA experience should give you business knowledge which will help your case
PPS: business knowledge will let you transition to Business Analyst - which might actually be preferable to programming ...

Amateur projects?

[Sloppy]

But all of the job postings out in the real world are looking for people with 2-5 years of programming work experience. How do you build up those first 2 years of experience?

I'm surprised that someone could already have their degree, want to program for a living, and yet not have any experience. (What have you been doing for fun for the last 10 years, when not studying or working?)

Anyway, assuming that doesn't make you realize, "oh, I do already have tons of experience," then start hacking at night. If you really can't think of anything, then write a game. Or take on some existing code, and fix its bugs or port it (e.g. Chrome to Linux).

Re:Amateur projects?

[geekoid]

AN Airplane mechanic doesn't have to build airplane in his free time to be good at his job, a doctor doesn't need to be preacticing on there free time to be good, an engineer doesn't ahve to build bridges on the weekend to be good at there job and a programmer doesn't need to spend all their time programming to be good at there job.
The most exceptional programmers I work with don't program on their free time. They game, or surf, or fly to Europe to a watch makers convention(no kidding) or any number of things outside their profession. Most of them their profession is what they do to allow them to do there other stuff.

Re:Amateur projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all of us are exceptional programmers, we need to code at home to keep the skillset actual and build tools for use later, specially if you are trying to land in a job coding you should read the documentation of the products you will use (oracle, .net, java), write snippets, read books. You are right exceptional programmers surf, but most of us need to study and learn in the freetime to compete with them.

Re:Amateur projects?

[Satanicolas]

mod parent way up please

Re:Amateur projects?

[Sloppy]

AN Airplane mechanic doesn't have to build airplane in his free time to be good at his job, a doctor doesn't need to be preacticing on there free time to be good, an engineer doesn't ahve to build bridges on the weekend to be good at there job and a programmer doesn't need to spend all their time programming to be good at there job.

I don't care who turns out to be "good at their job" or not. That's beside the point. And I'm not saying anyone has to "spend all their time" on anything.

You just compared computer programming to occupations that have some sort of unusual barrier to entry. An 18 year old thinking of getting into civil engineering probably didn't have a hundred thousand dollars worth of steel and concrete sitting around to play with. An 18 year old thinking of getting into medicine probably didn't have a list of patients willing to risk their life on his amateur experiments. The 18 year old airplane-mechanic-wannabe probably didn't have an airplane to tinker with or people willing to risk their lives flying it.

The person who just got a CS degree, probably did have a computer around in 2004, and had no reason not to "try out" programming to see what it would turn out to be like. Good grief, how did they resist ever even wondering, "hey will this be any fun? Can I actually bear to spend my working life on this?" The machine was right fucking there, the craft ready to indulge in.

We're talking about people who were interested or curious enough about a subject, to invest several years and thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands in the case of the doctor) of dollars to get a degree. If you can try it out (thus: gaining experience) for almost free, wouldn't you? If someone's not that interested, then I wonder how they managed to endure the grind to graduate.

A pro football player probably played football before they joined the NFL -- all it took was a field and a ball and some other guys. A professional basket weaver probably made a basket for mom when they were 9 years old -- all it took was some cheap materials. A professional writer probably wrote an essay in school. In terms of (lack of) barriers to entry prior to "credentials," I think programming is a lot more like these professions, than it is like doctors and civil engineers.

The most exceptional programmers I work with don't program on their free time.

Ah, but did they, when they were on their way to becoming programmers? (And hey, why are we limiting this to the exceptional programmers? Widen the above question to all programmers (exceptional or not) that you've met.)

Starting programming as a professional from the beginning, is a little unusual. The only people I've met who did that, were already working in some other engineering field and certainly weren't looking for entry-level programming jobs, nor did they have CS degrees.

Editors answered already:

[VeNoM0619]

I believe the editors already answered this one:
from the foot-in-door dept.
You've got your foot in the door as QA, you should be able to move around in the company now.

And the answer is...

[JK_the_Slacker]

...Open Source. I'm a current CS student, and asked this very question at an Alumni Panel on Friday. The answer they gave was "Get involved in an Open Source project." That's a big part of what they look for in new hires. Doing so shows that you're not just in it for the "big bucks" but instead that you want to be a programmer, that you're willing to go out of your way to program.

QA can be programming experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in QA for a software development house, and even in my few months here I already have a lot of programming experience I can put on my resume. Developing QA tools to streamline the QA process as well as developing automatic QA systems for regression testing are invaluable and show that you can look at a process, see how it can be improved and coded into an automatic way, architect a system and complete the code.

Think outside the box at your job and I"m sure you can find many programming tasks in your QA position. It's just a matter of taking on the initiative.

Work at a small company

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a QA job at a small company, and tell the engineering manager that you are an engineer, and sometimes you need to review the code to properly QA the product/project. Write small apps to exercise and load test the applications. Show the manager what you are developing. If you are good enough, you'll find yourself moving over into development.

The bigger the company, the more likely you are to be pidgeon-holed.

Please stop looking at QA as a "stepping stone"...

[javabandit]

This kills me every time I see it. I was just talking to a co-worker about this yesterday. We were doing some campus recruiting and this subject came up.

I run a software development organization now, but back in the day, I held a similar stereotype about "QA"... until I had to actually be responsible for quality.

QA is as much a science as art. Being a good tester takes skill, excellent understanding of the area being tested, an understanding of use-cases, understanding of likely vs. non-likely failure points, and how to truly measure quality itself. It requires (usually) a medium to high level of IT admin knowledge. In some cases (such as hardware)... the best testers are true engineers... EE(electrical) or CE(computer). Most test automation QA people are actually coders who know how to write software and do it every day.

I realize that there are lots of flighty "button clickers" out there. But there are equally as many "code monkeys" who write garbage code.

I wish QA would stop getting this bad wrap. Testing a complex piece of software (or hardware) is equally as tough as creating it.

If you are looking to use QA as a stepping stone into software development, I urge you to reconsider. You can rise into the ranks of a QA organization and easily make 100k a year... just doing testing.

you sound, kind of like a dick

[Anonymous Coward]

thank god i dont work with you

You are Exactly Right

[ryanchappell]

The jobs actually say "Entry Level. Must have 2 years experience in .Net, C, etc." I have been working in IT for 6 years with servers, and now as a DBA, but know my future is in programming. First does programming match your personality? I recommend working through K&R on your own: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-Prentice-Hall-Software/dp/0131103628/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223994909&sr=8-1 and finding a job that uses programming. There will come a time when programmers are needed so badly that they will accept less experience.

I was in your shoes...

[Anonymous Coward]

I apologize, but I did not read all 300+ replies, but I just wanted to say I was in your shoes.

I graduated with a B.S. in C.S. and started applying to development jobs left and right. They all wanted to hire somebody with experience, but did not want to give me the chance to get experience. (I always assumed that to get a newbie right out of school was to get a piece of clay you could mold the way you want it instead of re-training a person with two years experience in another environment.)

I was hired at an online company in a completely different job but still working with computers (which I ultimately felt was a waste of my time and money earning my degree). Two years later, the company's development department started looking for a person, and I applied for and got the job.

My advice is to learn about the language your employer uses... learn everything (obviously brush up on you SQL too). Try to show them that you are willing to learn to help move up to a full development position. Since you do need to pay the bills, internships are difficult unless you get lucky enough to find a paying internship that would cover your costs. If that fails, go to the staffing agencies to ask for their help.

I do wish you good luck in finding a position that better suits you, but remember that the road ahead may get bumpy...it will get better if you be patient enough.

Simple

[geekoid]

Make contacts. Go to user group meetings, go to job fairs.

Meet people, get to know them. Get your name out there.

My first real programming job? I was at my brothers wedding, happened to meet someone who managed a dev. team. Told him I was trying to get into a jr position, and if he knew anyone looking I would appreciate it.
He gave me his card and asked me to call hime. Over the phone I got my first job. Granted I had to move 800 miles. It was well worth it.

Another tip:
GO door to door handing out resumes. I did this when the bubble burst, and it worked.
I would walk into a 'tech sounding place' in some business park, engage the person up front in what they do. If they did development, I would give them a resume.
Handed out about 200 in two weeks, got an interview and a job ion the spot.

Re:Please stop looking at QA as a "stepping stone"

[geekoid]

"QA is as much a science as art"
um know, it's a science.

"Testing a complex piece of software (or hardware) is equally as tough as creating it."
only if your QA group doesn't know what the hell it's doing.

"You can rise into the ranks of a QA organization and easily make 100k a year... just doing testing."

HAHAHAhahah.. where? Maybe as a contractor. Maybe if you move up into management. But know QA tester makes 100K.

Proper QA is critical to a good and consistent release, and yes they do get a bum rap in most companies. But lets not over do it, shall we?

For the record, writing code isn't the critical step either, it's good design.

Do what you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

1. As a few others have said do open source work.
Think up a project that might help someone out and do it.
Help out your church, non-profit or what ever hobby you have for free.

All these projects can go on your resume!

2. Look with in your company... Chat up the developers, the development manager, your supervisor. Request soemthing small. Let them know that you want to switch roles and tell them what you're willing to do for the opportunity.

3. Submit your resume anyway... Who cares if they're request 2 - 5 years experience they need someone they're going to hire someone. Be prepared to answer the question "Someone else has 3 years experience why should I hire you over him?" Paint as you're hard working, dedicated, willing to learn to take advice, fast learning. ect ect ect... On a resume and during an interview you're selling yourself why would they want to buy you? (on a personal note I always approach an interview with the mentality "I already have the job (or else I wouldn't be going for an interview) do I want to take it?" Kind of conceited but it helps me relax and makes it become a conversation about where I'd fit with the company instead of an interview.

4. Network... Who know gets you the job... what you know keeps the job. So go to user group they're everywhere so you should be able to find one in your area.

5. Pound the pavement apply to as many places as possible. Again don't worry if you don't have the exact experience wanted. All they can do is tell you know. You might have to take a crap job to get started but once you have the only place to go is up.

Write code for the projects you work on

[gambino21]

I don't see any reason why you can't get some programming experience while working on QA. You should at least be able to get read access to the code of the projects you are working on. When you find bugs during you QA work try tracking them down and/or writing unit tests for them. Depending on what languages are used there, you should probably get to know JUnit or NUnit or search for other testing frameworks that might be relevant to your project. Then create a patch with the test and attach that to the issue. It will make the developer's life easier and prevent the issue from occurring again later. Obviously, not all test can be easily automated, but you're bound to find a few along the way.

If you're able to create an automated test for the issue, the next step is to see if you can fix it yourself. If you sumbit a few unit tests with fixes, the development team will probably start thinking about hiring you if/when an opening comes up. If openings do not come up within a year or two, then at least you have gained some good experience that can be used during interviews, or to help out one of the many open source projects that desperately need better automated tests.

from a manager

[Anonymous Coward]

Program something in your free time, so you have something to show. Engage the programmers at your company. Try to move into programming at your own company first. I've hired people from QA who passed our technical interview and I knew to be hard workers, or the types to come back with solutions or look into the code to find what is wrong and sent that along as feedback to the programmer on a test failure.

Lie!

[Anonymous Coward]

I see a lot of .NET positions around that are looking for 8 years of professional .NET experience. Production versions of the .NET framework have only been out for 6 years. You should do the same as almost everyone else who is applying for those jobs.

Lie!

The people who are posting jobs looking for n years of experience don't have any idea what makes a decent programmer, entry level or senior. And they deserve what they get!

As long as HR is the way it is, no good answer

[whitroth]

I've seen ads for "entry level, 1-3 yrs experience" (can you say cognitive dissonance?). On the other side, as someone with a long career - 15+ yrs programming, when I was out during most of the first part of the Bush Depression, I literally got idiots telling me I "wasn't fresh", as though I was some kind of bruised fruit, and had forgotten everything I'd done over decades.

Actually, one of them, I got mad, and asked her if she were to take a year off to have a kid, if she'd never get a job in her field again, since she wasn't "fresh". That actually got through to her, and she did put me in....

The only way is around HR. Either make contacts, as others have suggested, or find a friend to do work for, even if they don't pay you, so you can claim you're employed as a programmer, or, if you can, find a recruiter (their account managers talk to actual hiring managers, and so get around HR) that actually knows what they're talking about, and what's actually needed, to help you get a foot in the door.

Come the Revolution, we won't waste ammunition. We'll escort HR into the parking lot, toss some asphalt on them, and PAVE THEM INTO THE PARKING LOT.

                mark

Movet to Bangalore

[afabbro]

...because that's where companies are looking for entry-level programmers.

part-time work in high school or college

[peter303]

Theres lots of "slave jobs" (minimum wage) in IT on campus, help profs etc. That way you arent really an entry-levelperson naymore once you graduate.

Work at home

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're really dedicated to CS as a profession you already have a computer at home. You're already working on some sort of code in your off hours, whether something of your own or some sort of open source project.

This kind of thing is sometimes hard to sell as "real" experience. You need to either have something demonstrable (like an open source project) or you need to bring example code with you to your interview. I dropped off a mini-CDROM of various personal projects at one interview and was later told it was a big part in my hire.

If you're just going to work every day and that's it then CS is your "day job" and you need to examine what's really important in your life. You may have another career there somewhere.

start programming today

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it possible that even in your current QA position you can, at a minimum, start programming/scripting/designing some of your efforts?

Public sector

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the government (city, county, state, federal)...my first programming job (with a Geology degree) was for a public utility. They were looking for someone with a bit more experience too, but settled for me. Also, don't be afraid to apply to positions you aren't qualified for yet. If you need more "current" experience, take an evening class before you go back for a Master's...that might be enough to add a new 'hot' skill.

Alternately, do some programming (even scripting etc) for local non-profits. Might not pay, but it'll be material for your resume.

how I started out 15 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on personal experiance, and I did not even have a college degree at the time, just a pc support/qa job

1. Write a resume, turning all the little programs and scripts you wrote for QA, into programing assignments, start every line with "Designed and Implemnted ___________ that _____ with _____"
2. Post the resume on www.monster.com, and on www.dice.com
3. Wait till your offered something reasonable, that sounds intresting to you
4. $$$ Profit

The dishwashers of the programming world...

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words: web applications.

Any large(r) online retailer needs a whole hive of perl/java/ruby/insert-flavorof-the-month-webdev-platform-here monkeys to maintain their site. Grunt work? Yup. Shit pay? You bet. Easy to get? One company in my area will hire basically anyone who passes their perl proficiency test, regardless of training or experience.

from non-CS degree to developer

[davidwt]

I didn't even have a CS degree, but a M.S. degree in Physics/Astronomy; in fact, I never took any CS classes, but did quite a bit of programming related to my college classes after doing some Fortran programming in a job during high school. I started in a small company doing some CAD work, and demonstrated my programming skills through automating some of my tasks and helping automate some large tasks. This led me to programming the company's main applications. This is how I started. My suggestion is to be hired by a small company where multiple skills are much appreciated. It's always risky to work for small companies, but it is a good way to move through multiple disciplines getting work experience.

Or just stick with QA

[Drogo007]

I've made a living doing QA for 10+ years now. Especially if you can have both the QA skillset and the Programming skillset, there's a subset of the market that will let you write your own ticket - good test automation guys are HARD to find. They usually are either too much qa (very timid with programming tools) or are too much programmer (without the QA mindset that all really good testers have - the difference between a mediocre tester and a really great tester is an order of magnitude in the type and number of bugs they find. One really good tester is usually worth 4-6 mediocre testers)

If you hit the sweet spot and network, you can find the companies who recognize the worth of test automation and are will to pay for the talent.

Hope is not lost!

[Chameleon Man]

A lot of QA can be repetitive, so look for little ways you could write a program to cut out the monotony. Also, try to find programmers in the company who may want someone to write unit tests for them. Companies (and programmers alike) are realizing more and more that they need unit testers.

Develop an iPhone Application

[gintex]

Develop an application for the iphone. Make it free so that it gets downloaded by a lot of people. You'll be getting instant job offers every day.

Are you trying?

[DetpackJump]

Are you applying for these jobs? It seems like the only think holding you back is anxiety. I guarantee that with a CS degree and a few years experience in something relevant, you're going to get hits. Quit worrying and get out there.

try some iPhone development

[Anonymous Coward]

I quit my first full-time programming job after college. However, after quitting, I starting writing iPhone apps and have written a couple pretty good ones; both of which are on my resume. Doing something like this shows employers (and yourself) that you can actually be passionate about programming. In addition, if you can get passionate about something you're programming, you will become a much better programmer than if you're just writing something for school or for work.

Also, off topic: if you're going to an interview, just wear some slacks and an untucked polo shirt...not a suit and tie; you'll feel much more comfortable.

You can develop programming skills as a QA person

[fyrie]

QA can be integrated into the development process so that testing isn't just done once it's "thrown over the wall". Also, a QA department can oversee processes such as build and source control.

Try to build up your programming resume by advocating and implementing the following things in your team:
- Automated integration testing
- Unit testing
- Configuration Management / Source Control
- Build automation and continuous integration.
- Coding standards and metrics collection and enforcement.

Also, you could advocate and build home grown tooling such as applications to track what is deployed where, machine configuration in each environment etc... Basically any area of the development cycle that could have process improvement is fair game IMHO.

A completely different route to go is to take a really low paying job that no other person would take and work through the pain for a couple years.

Personally I did a combination of the above. I worked as an Associate Quality Engineer (not a papered Engineer) and built up some coding experience under the name of QA. I then took a 50% pay cut and moved out into the middle of nowhere to get that first programming job.

Automated QA

[Anonymous Coward]

Switch from QA to QA automation (aka regression testing), where you will be doing alot more scripting and working with code than just manual testing.

Once you're good at scripting and have worked with a few languages, you've got most of the experience you need.

Sell

[alexborges]

Thyself.

Ive seen perfectly useless programmers getting hired by upper-people because they give out the right vibe.

Im sorry, but that is the way to go: get the right vibe for the guy interviewing and experience will mean nothing for them.

In my experience

[el_womble]

In the UK, the trick was to take a rubbish job, in a rubbish area with a big company. In my case Capgemini in Bumblefuck, Shropshire.

Here's how I got into programming

[Iphtashu Fitz]

When I graduated from college many moons ago the industry wasn't hiring. I sent out resumes to over 150 companies all across the country over a period of six months, and from that got a grand total of 5 interviews and one job offer. Needless to say I took the offer. It was doing telephone tech support, but for a small company with corporate clients so I wasn't dealing with joe idiot off the street. Like you, it paid the bills but not much more. During whatever spare time I had I would create demos out of our software (it was basically a high level graphical programming language), and even started looking through the source code of the product to understand how it worked. After having done that for a while I was even able to locate the potential causes of bugs in the code that customers were calling us to complain about. By demonstrating to our software development team that I could read & write code, and do code-level troubleshooting, I eventually attracted the attention of one of the senior software engineers. He would occasionally explain to me some of the more complex parts of the code and point me in the direction to look for potential bugs that I was trying to identify. Eventually he was the one who recommended me for a new entry-level software development position that opened up which I jumped at. It took me about 18-24 months to get to that point but eventually I did and it really paid off.

spread yourself out

[ages944]

if you want to code, you need to show that you've coded. See if there's opportunity within your company to code, maybe in some other role than QA. Try some freelance work. Yeah, even an iPhone app would show that you've coded. Basically, seize the initiative and get coding.

Keep coding!

[Neikos]

No matter what your title is, show all -- including yourself -- that coding is in your blood. I started out in QA and became quite frustrated with the tedium the job entailed. So I started writing tools to make my job easier. When people in my QA group started using my tools, the company noticed this and formed a new "Tools Group" and put me at its head. And that's how it started with me. Was I luckey? ... Yip! But that spark of luck would not have happened if I don't keep coding.

jobs in Alaska and Hawaii

[LaMuk]

The State of Alaska hires entry level programmers with a minimum of requirements. Anchorage probably has enough programmers but Juneau is hurting for more. Find out more at http://www.jobs.state.ak.us/

I just finished a job detail in Hawaii and they need to hire an entry level programmer. They hire through JIMAR: http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/JIMAR/

In Hawai'i, I was working at CRED which researches the coral reefs around the islands. Very interesting job, incredibly relaxed working environment. And there is opportunity to go on cruises as a data manager.

Both places are expensive. The pay in Alaska makes up for it, and the weather in Hawai'i makes up for it there.

It took me three years after graduation to get a programmer job and I believe I exaggerated a tad on how much programming I was doing in my current job.

You have to ask for it.

[Explodo]

I started out in visual database modeling. I was using tools to build 3-D models of large-scale terrain simulation areas. The company that hired me wouldn't consider me for their software jobs because I have a degree in math. I made sure to do a good job at what I was doing and I made sure to make it known that I wanted to do more advanced work. It took a year, but I was finally given a chance to write software. It was in a limited capacity at first, but after I did a good job at that I was given more responsibilities. Throughout that time I made sure to do things as correctly as I could and I also made it known that I could do more. In the 10 years since, I've been writing software. I'm on my third company now. I'm about to get an MS in CS because even with 10 years experience it can still be hard to find a job without a CS degree. Don't think that you need to toot your own horn to make progress. If you can really do the work, people will know that. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want though. In fact, make sure you ask for what you want regularly. Don't be afraid to make it known that you need more challenges.

You don't need experience...

[tnk1]

If you are entry or junior level, you need two things in an interview: a college degree (usually) and the ability to spew back answers to the programming questions they ask you.

If you have a little experience as a QA person, you can do the following. Work in QA for 2-5 years. Find out what your developers at your current company use for CM and as a development environment. Get accounts for all that stuff and learn how it works. Maybe write your own little app or two.

If you can, post your resume, and indicate you used those tools in your workplace. This will magically translate into 2-5 years of experience with those tools. Do not overstate your experience. You are not a genius of Subversion, and you didn't write Foundation classes. A simple mention of them in your resume is sufficent.

If your workplace gave you a title without the letters "QA" in it, you are home free.

Now here's the hard part. Experience is worth having, but let's face it, 2-5 years is squat. Its just something they put in the description so that they don't get recent college grads to apply. You MUST know what you are talking about in terms of the things you learned, however. The secret is that it doesn't take 2-5 years to answer their questions in an interview, you could probably do it in a month or two of diligent use of those tools on your own.

This is the thing. You are doing what they call in poker a "semi-bluff". Most companies ask for one thing, but settle for another. The fact is that some people have made good use of their 2-5 of programming experience and are superior candidates to you. They should beat you out, because they are better candidates than you.

Luckily, most of them already have the jobs they want.

Then there are people who had the correct job description, but they are barely qualified to program your order on those fiddly cash registers at McDonald's. Those are the people who won't beat you, even if you graduated from college with a Medieval Chinese History degree. (Ask me about the Tang Dynasty sometime, its really interesting.)

Finally, once you are in, they teach you what they want you to do anyway. As long as you actually earned that CS degree you probably can do what they want you to do. Its not like you are a "senior" programmer here.

If bluffing doesn't work for you, then accept a contracting gig or two. They tend to be a lot less picky about who they hire, and you will get experience as a real programmer. You'll be even more of a cog in the machine than you would be as a green programmer, but it still pays money, as long as you can handle getting a new job every 6-8 months.

Moral of the story. Don't let yourself get classified by a title when you can do more than that. It will become harder to avoid this as you move up the ranks, but right now, you are basically who you want to be, because no one really cares much what sort of "junior" you are.

Hell, if you worked in QA for a few years, you probably actually know how to find and fix bugs, which is more than I can say for most junior programmers.

College, Internships?

[Anonymous Coward]

I started as a mid level developer when I was 19, with no college degree and a GED. How did I do this? I wrote a resume that outlined my personal experience programming (which I'd been doing since I was 12) and just kept applying until I was able to get into an interview. Once there I wowed them with my obvious programming knowledge and desire to be a professional programmer and they gave me a shot. Done.

It's all about social engineering. I'm software architect level programmer with no degree, and I could get a job as a senior level QA guy just by rewording my resume and talking the talk in an interview.

Are you sure its a CS Degree?

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Are you sure you got a CS degree? And from an accredited university?

I knew someone who got an MIS degree from Troy State, or whatever they're calling themselves now, and called it a CS degree.

Just do it

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Simple, get on Dice and post your resume. Do contract to hire work. This way they hire you on contract for a few months and if you are a good enough developer they hire you.

2) Know your stuff. Figure out what you want to program in and just do it. Join an open source project that peaks your interest and uses the language you desire to get a job in. Open Source development experience is still development experience. Companies aren't stupid, they'll hire you in a heartbeat if you ace your tech interview.

3) If a company passes you over because you don't have experience then you don't want to work there. A good company will take an inexperienced programmer with potential and mold him into a great developer.

Your not in college and you've already spent years doing a job you don't like. An internship is not for you. The economy is in the crapper right now, but entry level programming jobs are booming.

Take advantage of every opportunity

[darkvizier]

If you have an opportunity to get an internship, you should definitely go for that. They usually pay well, and the experience will give you a jump start on your career.

I didn't get an internship, and I had somewhat of a slow start coming out of college. I worked in QA for two companies. Luckily the second company allowed me to work with a lot of automation, and get experience doing some actual coding. I used that as a spring board to get a development role at another company.

While working at that QA job, I realized that the most important thing was to be dedicated to my goal of becoming a programmer. I worked with several other people who claimed that this was their goal, but while I was taking advantage of every opportunity to code (repetitive task? Cool, I'll write a Perl script!), my peers for some reason or another just didn't do that. So I think it's important, if you can't get an internship or a development role, to find a place at a software company and look for opportunities to help out using your programming knowledge. Study programming and work on some projects in your off time and just focus on building your skills. Actions speak louder than words, and if you're able to present a few instances where you were able to contribute something of value, you'll really shine in an interview, and you'll also get good references from the people you worked for.

Degree is exp

[Taulin]

Most employers consider college degrees as experience (1-2 years). If you see a job opening that requires 2 years, you probably have enough experience to handle the situation. Have you not been sending out any resumes and just sitting in your QA job? The only people that actually use the 'years' requirement literally are recruiters, as they are 'tards. If you can answer the questions in the interview, employers won't care about the years.

Personal projects are OK

[Fastolfe]

Don't feel you have to be a slave to the standard bureaucratic resume template here. Personal projects are just as good to see on a resume as "work experience". Start playing with some big open source project and contribute some features, or start your own project that showcases your hobbies and interests. Some software companies (like the one I work for) actually prefer seeing things like this, because it shows them that you're passionate about software, and you're not just there to work your 8 hours churning out code that merely meets expectations.

I was in your shoes.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just in your shoes not too long ago. I graduated with a great gpa in July 04 and couldn't get a programming job until June 06.

The first thing you need to do is make sure you have a decent understanding of programming and are confident in your answers. Dig into Visual Studio and know everything there is about it.

Learn C#. Look up 'Sam's teach yourself C# in 24 hours.' There's an online version that's free and gives you a good baseline.

Learn Asp.net. Head over to the Asp.net website and watch all of their training videos.

Learn Javascript.

Also look into .NET 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 etc and know what the differences are between them.

*Remember, anyone who would hire you knows you are a jr programmer and thus don't know much. What they do expect from you is that you can find out how to things on your own. They want to hear that you know the basics, know how to Google, and take your own time to keep up with the new stuff coming out.

Make a list of every recruiter/contract agency and you can find and call them every day. Call once in the morning and again after lunch. Call all of them.

That's how I got my job. I had a list of about 15 different employment agencies and called them all every day until finally a job opened up.

Start with unit test coding

[Anonymous Coward]

Get yourself to start learning unit test coding at where you are now. Programmer with QA and/or unit test mind set is valuable asset compare to pure programming but don't unit test his/her code.

I'm a no-degree, how I got in...

[sarysa]

I'm always too late for these. And this one actually resembles my story. Pssh.

Anyway, if you do see my reply in the sea of others, I was in QA for some time before making it into development. There were a few dynamics with my moving from QA to dev. Personal projects is one of them. Back when I was trying to get my foot in the door (for real, more on that later) I was spending almost all my free time on personal projects. It was stressful not really having a work-life balance for awhile, and I'll admit that stress did surface a bit at work, but it was necessary. I combined these personal projects into a portfolio on my website.

Now speaking of foot in the door, your foot is not in the door. It's not in the door until you're developing or programming and getting paid to do it. There is a bit of a stigma moving from QA to dev, and if you've been there for a long time you may have been typecast by your co-workers, and won't be able to move up. That was my case, and I eventually parted ways with my QA company and found development work in a start-up. The pay was little more than QA, but that was the true "foot in the door" for me. I kept building up my portfolio while working at this company (though with a better work-life balance) and when that gig ended, I got into an established company with higher hiring standards and significantly higher pay, all thanks to my work experience and my portfolio.

So the short of it is: You can get in, you just really have to want it. (and, of course, you need to display an appropriate level of competence!)

Head FOSS young man

[Anonymous Coward]

While the pay is well... there is none; it's good experience.
Find a project in an area that interests you, and is in a language you'd like to get experience in, and get to work. Not only is it verifiable work, but your potential employers can actually look at your work. This also shows you are willing to go the extra mile.

Alternatively your university has a whole department dedicated to finding you a job. Even after 20, crap I'm old now, years I have access to all of my colleges job hunting resources. Just don't expect a 6 figure income without a proven track record. This isn't the dumb ass hire anybody at what ever prices 90's.

Consider industrial automation

[Anonymous Coward]

PLC programming is something of a step down from developing PC apps, but the pay is decent. I got started doing this without any degree at all, just some examples of HTML, Javascript, PHP and C/C++ and a willingness to learn the company's existing codebase and several proprietary development packages.

write code for QA

[MountainBoiler]

Chances are that QA could use some code (often in some scripting language) to automate this, verify that, configure something else. Maybe it is performance testing.

So go for it.

If the QA manager doesn't have any obvious coding positions or tasks, find your own. Be successful at it. When it works, show it off.

You may find coding inside QA more rewarding than inside the Dev team. You know the desired result, and don't have to jump through the same hoops. It may even be rewarding. If it isn't, it gives you that experience to jump inside the company or outside it.

Fill the niche

[Anonymous Coward]

Every industry has a niche skill they find it difficult to fill. Take your average mid to large business still in the midst of moving from mainframes to server farms. They're out there.

They need people who know how to read COBOL, how to integrate their current infrastructure with their newer technologies and how to work with their big iron databases (IMS - ick- or DB2) and the newer technology (SQL Server, Cache, DB2 etc).

Yes, I know DB2 is down there twice. You ever seen it on z/OS? You ever seen it on a server? And that's my point.

Good luck.

Consulting

[j-tull]

Have you considered joining a consulting company. Many consulting companies are willing to take on new graduates and/or people with good educational backgrounds but little industry experience. They'll typically provide you with lots of training, and you'll get a LOT of industry experience in a short amount of time?

Re:The right attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's not!

I am senior coffee drinker at a major consultancy. I am lucky enough to avoid any "hard work" and work for myself "in my work time."

This is much much better than trying to prove anything to anyone.

I suggest the parent poster find a job without work!

Production Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely look into production support development roles. They aren't the most glamorous. You'll probably be added to an on-call rotation. It can get a little stressful, but production support puts you in a role where you need to learn a lot about the systems and quickly.

I'm not sure about other organizations, but production support is more of a grow or go area. If you prove yourself, you are grown as a resource. If you don't shine, you stagnate or get moved elsewhere.

Move to Bangalore, or Hyderabad

[Anonymous Coward]

That's where you can best make a name for yourself as a hard worker. Then, with a bit of luck and planning, you can move up the food chain, or get a visa to work in Europe or the U.S.

Personal Project

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not read the thread, so I am sorry if this is repetitive.

Create a personal project in your spare time that you can show to people. It would be even better if the project was hosted on a server that you set up or at least admin. yourself.

So often, people we interview were right out of college and could answer textbook questions but did not have much to show for it. You would have a leg up on other interviewees of similar experience levels if you can show them something that you have done.

It also shows that you are genuinely interested in programming, which impresses interviewers.

work for near free off web site

[gjutras]

Work for near free (like minimum wage or even less), but not free. You need to get paid. Look on job boards like guru.com and hireageek.com and bid on projects at cheap rates. Then you can put on your resume that you contracted to these companies for the projects. Do as many short ones as you can. Ask permission to use them as references and if you want to use them as a reference, remind them, ask them a second time and warn them that you put their name out there as a reference for you.

This actually will get you experience and paid (some).

Other than that, work for free on an opensource project. Find books/blogs/articles on how to go about that.

Be able to demonstrate your skills

[dpm67]

How active are you keeping in terms of continuing to flex your development skills? If you haven't been doing any programming in all that time, then most likely you have a lot of catching up to do before you can start to expect to get anywhere with an interview. If you have been letting your practical knowledge of development wane over time, it is going to show through pretty quickly if there are any real developers present during your interview. Therefore it is critical you are keeping your skills polished and reasonably up to date if you really expect to get back into the field. Even if you are only doing development projects on your own, it still means you are practicing your craft and gaining real experience. This should be apparent to a good technical interviewer and you should not be afraid to bring the topic up if they neglect to at first (although I would be surprised).

Another important point to realize is that especially as a new programmer, you are not going to be expected to have a wide breadth of knowledge in the field. But you should be expected to be able to show you can apply knowledge of common techniques and concepts. So being able to say you have done programming in 10 different languages is pretty worthless at the entry level because nobody serious would realistically be expecting that from an entry level developer. At the entry level, it is way more important to be able to show you have good command of fewer areas and are understanding development concepts and techniques. But if you can point to a couple projects where you can show applied knowledge using one specific development environment that is usually enough to get you in the door at many places. Of course, the development environment you choose to practice in is likely to define or limit the initial places you are going to be able to apply for. So don't go for anything too esoteric. One specific recommendation is that since almost all development work needs to be able to store and work with data, it is pretty likely almost any development work is going to require some sort of need to work with data in databases. Most entry level developers have very poor skills with SQL development and if you want to give yourself a way to standout, really working on and nailing down your skills in using SQL can really make you rise to the top of the list when it comes for your interviewers to make a decision.

Unless the organization you would be interviewing with is overly tied down with bureaucratic rules, it is usually pretty easy to get minimum requirements overlooked if you can demonstrate you have the skills for an entry level position.

 

Open your eyes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why on earth would you want to be a programmer? Can this be the limit of your ambition?

For that matter, why would you even want to work for a living? Why don't you develop something you can sell on the Internet so that you don't need a job?

Your problem is not that you are being held back by others in your current situation. It is that you are holding yourself back by your own lack of vision and imagination.

When you let others define you, they own you. Which makes you a slave. If you want to be a slave, fine, there are lots of people who cannot imagine life without a collar around their necks. But if that is what you have chosen for yourself, consciously our otherwise, don't have the temerity to complain about the chaffing.

Why the hell would anyone want to be a programmer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a programmer, and I'm way more interested in getting hired as a swimsuit photographer.

Anyone know of any openings?

Start writing code

[ukoda]

If you want experience as a programmer I would suggest you start writing programs! You are allow to write programs even if you are not paid to do so. I have employed people for positions which they have no paid experience if they can show they have done that type of work as a hobby and to a suitable level of quality. Pick something simple of interest and start coding for it. When you are comfortable with your skill set write something more significant or join an open source project. When I interview someone I want to see the source code more that the running program and hear from the candidate how they designed and debugged their code.

What kinds of companies...

[v3xt0r]

"What kinds of companies hire programmers with no prior experience?" Generally, companies being started by ambitious programmers with no prior experience, during the 'start-up' process. It worked for Google!

You're not going to get a rewarding "entry-level" programming position anywhere, afaik. You may get a *tolerable* position, but depending on your level of tolerance, you may want to consider a different approach.

I'd continue to work in QA and learn as much as possible, while doing web programming projects on the side. Try Craigslist, perhaps.

By the time you get good enough to walk-in, get hired, and make decent money, you'll have already X years of experience in 'software development', since doing SQA (efficiently) does require knowledge of programming (fundamentals, methods, processes, etc.). Mix that with your contract projects (they are applicable on resumes, you know), you should have more confidence in yourself. =p

My advice..avoid finding a job

[Atrox666]

Since you have a job that will support you my advice would be to not find a job.
As you progress in a programming job particularly in a large corporation you just get less and less involved in coding and more and more involved in stupid politics dominated by those who don't know what they want or what they are doing. Build a product. I recommend system tools programming because they are small projects and business oriented. Facebook apps are another way to get known. It's better to be a vendor than a corporate bitch.

You get those first 2 years experience in school

[BitZtream]

While you were on your way to a CS degree, you should have probably been trying to get your foot in the door as a programmer. Most places love students as developers, you get the crap jobs and they pay you practically nothing, but when you get out you have both a degree and experience which allows you to command either a raise/position change at the place you've already been doing the crap jobs, or you have the resume requirements for the HR goons every where else.

Also, don't NOT apply for a job because you don't meet the requirements. I've >NEVER met all of the requirements in my career as a developer. The idea of those requirements is to weed out the majority of the people who might apply. By applying any way you may find out that even though they list those 'requirements' they really aren't expecting them (most places know they won't get what they want based on the BS requirements anyway), or you may just get lucky and slip by the sleeping HR goon thats supposed to notices those things.

Finally, spend less time reading slashdot, and more time networking with those in your company. Getting a job without meeting the silly requirements becomes a whole lot easier when you have someone on the inside that will recognize your name and what you've done in the past. Those people you work with aren't going to be there forever (well, some of them will, but they don't matter anyway). If someone you know leaves for another company, keep in touch with them, ask them if they know of any other openings at their new place, do they need some help perhaps? Networking with people in the business is the #1 way to get yourself a job somewhere. Most of the time if someone inside the company will vouch for you, you practically get a free pass on the HR crap and get straight to the technical people who actually make the decision in the end, not always, but a lot of the time. My last 2 development jobs have actually been found at the local bar, having some beers with old co-workers, they start talking about someone who has left, or that they'd like to leave and you find that you could replace the person, everyones happy because they already know each other and can obviously stand each other rather than having to hire someone who's personality is an unknown.

Finally, there is the fact that its mostly a numbers game. There are X number of jobs available and Y number of people trying to fill them, only Z number of people are actually qualified for them. If you try to get all X number of jobs, and you aren't part of the Z group, it won't likely matter because somewhere along the line, someone is going to screw up and hire you :) Just don't feed them any BS in the process, don't claim skills you don't have or overvalue the ones you do. You're going to learn a lot over the years, everyone involved knows this, including the person hiring you. You apply to enough places and eventually you are likely to come across someone hiring you that says 'you know what, this guy isn't what I want, but for some reason I like him/her. I'll give him/her a shot anyway and see where it goes.' Sounds like a bad idea from the companies perspective, and it is a gamble, but also many people recognize that lack of experience is easy to solve by hiring you. If you work for him for 2 years then you have met his 2 years experience requirement, and during that 2 years he's molded you into the developer he wants.

Experience is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to get those jobs and get that experience, you need a job that gets you that experience. So you need to get a job that will give you the experience you need to get a job requiring experience. Get it? I will put it to you in programming terms: :NOEXPERIENCE
IF (!qualified)
JUMP NOEXPERIENCE
ELSE
JUMP GOODJOB :GOODJOB
#EXPERIENCE
set qualified=1
done

Its always been this way. You will have to lie about qualifications in some way or other and put up with a crap job that gets your foot in the door (if available). Otherwise, you will spend the next 30 years asking yourself 'why did I go to school if no one will hire me, and their sole requirements are experience, when I have none???'
I hate to say it but all companies are this way. At some point you WILL have to lie to get a job.

Small companies like people who can change hats.

[Anonymous Coward]

The official title for programmers in my company is 'QA/Developer.' We do peer code reviews and our Field Application Engineers also double as bug hunters. On top of that we have a dedicated full time QA department to run regression and unit tests. So we have triple-layer coverage, and people who start in QA can go the route of QA/Developer or FAE depending on whether they like to travel.

The key trick to making the hop from QA tester to Developer is to look for a QA job that allows you to expand your programming abilities -and- when you go for the next job, talk up your scripting abilities rather than the number of bugs you found.

Another thing to consider is try taking side classes in User Interface Design-- because UI design bugs are peskier to report but when fixed enhance the user experience. Screenshot 'before' and 'after' things after a bug you 'found' and add that to your portfolio.

One last suggestion: show some programming moxie by picking up skills in PHP and/or CGI programming. Put your test scripts into a front-end GUI and bring that as part of your programmer-wannabe portfolio.

Bottom line: The best way to jump from QA to programmer is to show your work. If you can't do it on-the-job, do it off the job as best you can.

-Coyotedance

grow up and deal with it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I asked the very same question almost 40 years ago and the answer was the same then as now - take a job related to the field, do it well, and keep working toward something better. I worked for over 3 years as a (GASP!) computer operator while working toward a programming position. Ambition is a good thing - unreasonable expectations are something else. Grow up and deal with it....a lot of the rest of us have paved the way by doing crap you seem to think is beneath your capabilities.

The sad reality

[jasonditz]

I went through the same thing in my own field of study from college... I got my degree just a couple months after the optics market crashed, everybody wanted experience. All these people have good ideas, and maybe they're more practical in programming, but the fact of the matter is that in a bad economy there really are a lot of experienced people out of work and willing to take what would normally be entry level jobs, and you're competing against them. Graduate school is an option, waiting is an option, trying a different field is an option. I waited for years for the optics market to turn around and ended up in a career I love that had absolutely nothing to do with what I went to college for. Best of luck in whatever path you choose.

My DOs and DONTs

[cmay]

I have been interviewing a lot of programmers over the last year.

I compiled a list of DOs and DONTs for getting an interview/job.

I hope you find it interesting:
http://chrismay.org/2008/07/28/DOs+And+DONTs+Of+Getting+A+Development+Job.aspx

Write software.

[drew_eckhardt]

You need to actually write software.

Find a free software project or concept you like and contribute. It'll be the worst software you write in your career but you'll learn about what makes software more or less maintainable without doing that on an employer's dime.

Take project classes from a local university. I've interviewed a lot of candidates who graduated with high grade point averages and an ocassional master's degree but limited problem solving and programming skills, but few of them had any project classes like compiler construction where you build a toy 'C' or whatever compiler (a lot of these are group projects, so at least one member of the team can get away with slacking).

Write automated tests. Getting testing right can be more complicated than the code.

Volunteer to write tools at your current job. There are always more things that need doing than people to do them, especially now that hiring has been cut back.

Learn to code!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't all you fsckers just learn how to code?!? We are in need of decend coders and nothing good seems to come out of Universities.

Redefine Your job

[Elfan]

I presume from your question that you already know how to program, you are just looking for a way to get more experience where people actually pay you for it.

My advice is for you to redefine your job. It is no longer to test software but to write software that tests software. "Test Engineer" is (I think) a term that is currently popular to describe that job. Hitting web services? That is straightforward enough to test. GUIs? Look into scripting the accessibility harness. Web sites? Google for "Watir".

If you arn't sure where to start write down a list of the more annoying or repetitive QA tasks you did today.

Companies in India!

[Paracelcus]

See above..

Start automating some of your tests

[chilli531]

First off, as said above QA is not a shit job. A good QA person is worth their weight in gold. They have a good overview of the entire system and they enjoy "destroying" which is the opposite mindset from a developer. A QA person also has the disadvantage of being the person to have to block or delay the release and always has to deal with this pressure. If you can do it well, there's no reason that it's a shit job.
Second: If you are still chomping at the bit to go into dev, then start developing stuff at your company. Little tools for testing pieces of the code, dll's etc. Pick a person you work with in dev that's a good person as a mentor and start flying. A good dev person will appreciate the effort and the extra set of eyes. If you can do this well, you can perhaps start fixing some of the problems you find and keep going from there.

my steps to a programming job

[Anonymous Coward]

My career progression.

#1 research lab dishwasher as undergrad. 2 years
(met people, got into job hiring circles)
#2 summer programming internship-paid (1 summer)
#3 volunteered as a scientific research programmer to get a good project (1 year)
#4 Low level programmer, got a job referral from the group I volunteered in. Pay was extraordinarily crappy but I worked for a very well known research group. Paid my dues there for 2 years. Did java programming along with postgresql. Made sure I learned the 'right' skills. ( 2 years)
#5 Next job was hired by a co-worker that went out on his own. It was a higher level position with much more responsibilities and freedom. Small bump in pay, but it was a higher position
(2 years)
#6 Landed Sr Programmer position at a very large company with my own office, doubled my pay and I get the best and most interesting projects.

Yes, kind of a long road but I learned a lot along the way.

Oh, and I don't have a degree in computer science. But I'll probably get a masters since my company will pay a good chunk of my tuition.

When applying for jobs:
-apply for a lot of positions that you think you can do
-don't turn down interviews or phone calls with recruiters
-list a well thought out resume and extremely well written cover letter on Hotjobs, Monster, Career Builder.
-Buy some interview skills books
"programming interviews exposed", get a couple of books on interviewing and resume writing
-If someone offers you a phone interview or in person job interview....take the interview!!....at least you'll get some practice and learn from your mistakes. You never really know what a job is about until you have interviewed for it.
-Practice doing those coding puzzles, do a bunch of those code tests and time yourself...practice on paper and not just in some Applications Development Environment...You shouldn't need help from autocomplete or function building. :)
-buy some new clothes....nice shoes,pants,belt, shirt tie. That way they know you can be seen in public if they need to send you somewhere on business.
-in an interview be excited, provide solutions to their problems and seem engaged.
-in your resume, if you say you have a certain skill...make sure you know it!...go back and review past projects(languages, databases, scripting). Learn as much jargon/acronyms as possible so you don't miss out on conversations. Wikipedia is a good way to crawl around through a lot of technology terms and learn what they mean and what is behind them.
-be prepared to talk in detail about at least 1 project(start to finish). Be prepared for all those run of the mill interview questions, 'what is your greatest weakness?','What are your strengths?', 'Where do you see yourself in 3 years?' BUY AN INTERVIEW BOOK!
-stick with it and have confidence. there's a job out there somewhere. you might have to lower your salary expectations but DON"T sell yourself short. Your unlikely to get a raise once you take the job.

Also, drop in that you read slashdot....that way they know you are a hardcore nerd that keeps up-to-date.

forget cs

[Maglos]

take up a trade, after two years you can make 200k per year(ie 70h/week Union Ironworking in fort mcmurray /w loa). Work a couple months a year in your trade and program or volunteer the rest of the time.

Re:forget cs

[db10]

I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a spork

DevelopingProgrammers

[Anonymous Coward]

Better late than never: My friend Sarah runs a blog which focuses on exactly this issue:
http://www.developingprogrammers.com/
The whole bent of Developing Programmers is: "I can write code. What should/can I do to become a professional (or just more 'serious') coder?"

Disclaimer: I host this site.

Apology: I wouldn't post as anonymous if my old login hadn't withered up and died through disuse.

Do it yourself

[pubwvj]

Five easy steps: Step #1: Write software in your spare time (make sure company you work for didn't have you sign a contract saying they own things you do in your own time. If you did sign such a contract then go directly to step #5.) Step #2: Give away software in step #1 to charities, local small businesses, etc. This builds a portfolio. Step #3: Start charging for your services using step #2 for references. Step #4: Build your business up so it supports you. (Cut your expenses to make this easier.) Step #5: Quit your day job. You won't need to work for someone now because you have your own business. It works.

Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple, LIE

That's about as good as it gets.

Most people use ANY type of programming, even if it isn't paid, to bone up their resume.

That means any type of coding, for any type of person, friend, colleague, or whatever.

I don't really see how this is a story... that's kind of a well known "DUH"

I know I used high school and college projects to get my first programming job.

Passion for Coding

[Anonymous Coward]

Your work is your resume.

If you want to work as a programmer, then program.

Live, breathe, dream coding.

We make our own luck. I don't have a college education. I just read lots of books and write lots of code.

Starting a study group helped a lot too. Building that social network. Learning new ideas and technologies (e.g. design patterns, functional programming, concurrency).

Happy hunting!

Cheers, Jason Osgood

serve

[Anonymous Coward]

serve in the military. the military is always looking for in-house programmers for systems integration and such. the experience you'll gain from 2-3 years will be worth twice that in the marketplace

Work for a small company.

[infosinger]

I found that small companies are less hung up about titles or responsibilities. Basically, you will still have your primary QA mission but there will be things that need to be done that will allow you to demonstrate your development skills and gradually take on more of those kinds of responsibilities. Good, healthy small business don't usually care who does what, they only care that the job gets done on time and on spec. By contrast most large companies get caught up on titles, fiefdoms and organization charts.

Apply and find out

[Anonymous Coward]

Internships are indeed an excellent source of experience. Granted they are not viewed as heavily as a full-time job but they are added value to your resume.

Also don't be discouraged by the 2-5 year range. Many employers are open-minded if you have the rough skill and a great attitude. Remember we are the nerdy kids that no one wants to talk to, so when someone is able to handle a conversation well they are taken back.

You never know what a company is looking for unless you find out. They might be interested in an early 2 year developer and at the most a 5yr developer. It is very subjective. Worse thing that happens, is you get nowhere.

just a degree?

[munichlinux]

I would never say just a degree would fetch you a programmer job. well your internship, projects, knowledge will fetch you a job.

Nepotism

[Anonymous Coward]

What you need to do is network. Find out which of your friends parent's own or manage a company or department that has programmers. Find out what tech they use that is hot. Go to some dumb-ass tech school and learn that tool. Get them to hire you cheap. After 6 months, you have several years industry experience, plus experience in something hot.

This is what I did nearly 30 years ago. Unfortunately, I did not realize my friend's dad's company was actually one of the best places I would ever work. Over time, I became a hotshot in some stuff, then later a hotshot DBA, then later a burnout old guy who no one would hire, until I lucked into a job that used the great-grandprogeny tool of that first place. And wound up writing virtually the same programs I wrote nearly 30 years ago. But now, I'm paid the big bucks, and don't have to wear a tie.

Good luck, and realize networking=nepotism. And that's really a good thing.

Fresh college grad

[adamjgp]

As a recent college graduate in computer science I found the Career Faire that my school put on very helpful. I made several contacts at the job faire, and even landed a few interviews without trying. My gpa is abyssal, but I got a development job anyway because I interviewed well. The key things are your communication skills. The company will train you to code what they want you to code, but if you don't communicate well in the interview, chances are you're not going to get the job. I'd say look on-line for some career faires in your area, make a nice resume, wear a fresh suit, and make a good first impression.

Are you kidding me?

[NerveGas]

I can't believe how many job listings I see for entry-level programmers. It's insane.

Granted, they don't pay squat. I assume that since you have your degree, you want the big bucks. But either get in where you can and pay your dues, or you're going to be stuck in QA for a looong time.

Get involved in open source projects

[Se7enth]

I would suggest getting involved in some open source projects, its great experience and allows you to find out what kind of programmer you will really be and what interests you!

Quit being a noob (you're letting them scare you)

[Anonymous Coward]

Quit being a freaking noob. I got an entry level job out of college as a programmer. Just know what you are talking about know at least 3 programming languages (C++, C# or Java, Your choice of scripting language) then apply to every programming job in your area that sounds interesting or at least acceptable. Don't let 2 to 5 years experience scare you from applying some places consider school experience and in a job posting when an employer says necessary requirements they mean wish-list. In case you're curious it took me 2 1/2 months to find my first job as a programmer after college and I live in Portland OR, which if you don't include Intel is not much of a tech hub.

P.S. small companies are more willing to bend on their requirements than a large company becuase they get less applications

Entry level programmer NEEDED

[npolynomial]

A friend of mine is looking for some entry level programmers and he pays a lot! I use to work for him doing contract work. If you're interested e-mail him through his site at www.novaconceptions.com