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Conviction of Sen. Ted Stevens Is Thrown Out

A federal judge has thrown out the conviction of the senator who educated us all about the true nature of the Internet. Ted Stevens had been convicted last fall of lying about free home renovations that he received from an oil contractor, 8 days before he lost his Senate re-election bid. The judge blasted the US Department of Justice prosecutors for mishandling the case in ways that might rise to the level of criminality. "In 25 years on the bench, I have never seen anything approach the mishandling and misconduct in this case," Judge Emmet G. Sullivan said. He called the allegations "shocking and disturbing." According to the article, "Several jurors have told The Washington Post that the evidence against Stevens was overwhelming during a month-long trial that ended in October."

440 comments

  1. Still Sounds Guilty to Me by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Much of the hearing today focused on what transpired during an April 15, 2008, interview with the key witness, Bill Allen. During that interview, according to notes taken by two of the prosecutors, Allen said he did not recall talking to a friend of Stevens's about sending the senator a bill for work on his home, according to Sullivan.

    Under oath at trial, however, Allen testified that he was told by the friend to ignore a note Stevens sent seeking a bill for the remodeling work.

    "Bill, don't worry about getting a bill" for Stevens, Allen said the friend told him. "Ted is just covering his [expletive]."

    Ok, so we have Ted Stevens asking for a bill on the remodeling, like he should. But it sounds like one was never received or produced. So what was Stevens convicted of?

    After a month-long trial, Stevens was convicted of not reporting on Senate disclosure forms that he accepted about $250,000 in gifts and free renovations to his home in Girdwood, Alaska. Most of the gifts and free remodeling work were supplied by Bill Allen, chief executive of Veco, a now-defunct oil services company.

    Ok, regardless of whether or not an invoice was ever produced, the Senate is required to report things like this on their financial disclosure forms so that under the table payments can be discovered. It still sounds like he's guilty for failing to put "I just got these bitching additions to my house from this contractor for $0." Which should spark an investigation.

    My point is whether they find him guilty or not, he failed his duties as a senator. It's a shame the prosecution botched this case and withheld that evidence from the court as he's still guilty of failing to disclose this information publicly on his financial disclosure form.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Much of the hearing today focused on what transpired during an April 15, 2008, interview with the key witness, Bill Allen. During that interview, according to notes taken by two of the prosecutors, Allen said he did not recall talking to a friend of Stevens's about sending the senator a bill for work on his home, according to Sullivan.

      Under oath at trial, however, Allen testified that he was told by the friend to ignore a note Stevens sent seeking a bill for the remodeling work.

      "Bill, don't worry about getting a bill" for Stevens, Allen said the friend told him. "Ted is just covering his [expletive]."

      Ok, so we have Ted Stevens asking for a bill on the remodeling, like he should. But it sounds like one was never received or produced. So what was Stevens convicted of?

      After a month-long trial, Stevens was convicted of not reporting on Senate disclosure forms that he accepted about $250,000 in gifts and free renovations to his home in Girdwood, Alaska. Most of the gifts and free remodeling work were supplied by Bill Allen, chief executive of Veco, a now-defunct oil services company.

      Ok, regardless of whether or not an invoice was ever produced, the Senate is required to report things like this on their financial disclosure forms so that under the table payments can be discovered. It still sounds like he's guilty for failing to put "I just got these bitching additions to my house from this contractor for $0." Which should spark an investigation.

      My point is whether they find him guilty or not, he failed his duties as a senator. It's a shame the prosecution botched this case and withheld that evidence from the court as he's still guilty of failing to disclose this information publicly on his financial disclosure form.

      If it weren't the procedural flaws in the prosecution's case it would have likely been something else getting the conviction overturned. Stevens is way too wealthy and politically connected to be punished for any crime.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    2. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Funny

      While I agree with most of your points, I think it's safe to say that the jury's verdict has definitely gone down the tubes.

    3. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Stevens is way too wealthy and politically connected to be punished for any crime.

      Believe it or not, I don't believe those played a factor in the DOJ dropping the case. Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes. Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted.

      As for whether or not he's innocent or not is irrelevant at this point. He never got a fair trial. And without a fair trial, the justice system cannot prove something one way or another. He'll probably be remembered by the public as a guilty bastard, and never manage anything else for the remainder of his life. He's permanently retired now, which is the worst part that would have come from the conviction. Not the fine or the trip to Club Fed.

    4. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the way the system works. Sort of like the first Simpson trial. The LAPD definitely engaged in tactics that were unethical to say the least and he got off the hook largely because of that. Was he actually guilty? I don't think we'll ever know, but there was definitely manufactured evidence that tainted things enough to get him off.

      It's a shame in a sense because he wasn't really cleared in the mind of the public and he didn't serve time either. But that's what we've got.

      I suspect that's what Stevens is going to be getting as well. No prison, but uncleanably tainted reputation.

    5. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      To some extent though, his guilty verdict was a political death sentence. I just hope that he considers himself too old to run again or become a political commentator. I'm glad that prosecutorial misconduct is not tolerated, even if it means that something that is quite patently fishy (non-disclosure is a matter of fact, not law) is not prosecuted.

      In the end, this could be a win-win situation: a senator with some fishy payment issues is removed, and bad prosecutors get smacked down. Not how I would like to see it happen, but I can live with it.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    6. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ChefInnocent · · Score: 1

      Who knows if it is over. Everyone's favorite governor, the esteemed Governor Sarah Palin, requested current sitting Senator Begich to resign so that a special election can occur (Palin Calls for Begich's Resignation). Some conspiracy might befall Sen. Begich, heads will roll, and all hail the new Sen. Stevens.

    7. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would be interested in knowing more about the prosecutors. Who appointed them, what is their political affiliation, and campaign contributions (if any).

      The fact that this was pushed right before an election, combined with the misconduct seems like someone wanted this pretty badly, and wanted it now (think 60 seats in the Senate).

      Certainly would be Pulitzer worthy, if true. But we all know that the press only investigates "one way".

    8. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

      Once again I find myself longing for a "+1 Sad But True" mod.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    9. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ISoldat53 · · Score: 1

      Don't you think this was intentional? It's not the first time a prosecution was botched so that the defendant could get off.

    10. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Sabathius · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Hey, man, the jury is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck.

    11. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush didn't clear house in the DoJ like previous Presidents had in an attempt for both sides to get along. Most of the prosecutors on this case were leftovers from Clinton.

    12. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Korey+Kaczor · · Score: 1

      "My point is whether they find him guilty or not, he failed his duties as a senator. It's a shame the prosecution botched this case and withheld that evidence from the court as he's still guilty of failing to disclose this information publicly on his financial disclosure form."

      The court system takes time, it's not just something you can dump something on.

    13. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 0, Troll

      In the end, this could be a win-win situation: a senator with some fishy payment issues is removed, and bad prosecutors get smacked down. Not how I would like to see it happen, but I can live with it.

      The problem is, it has far further reaching effects than this. Sen. Tubes narrowly lost his re-election and probably would have won if it weren't for the guilty verdict. Now the Democrats are dangerously close to having cloture power in the senate. I find the specter of the White House & both chambers of Congress being run by Democrats without giving their opposition any form of checks and balances a little scary. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd like to see somebody get off just because of the political consequences. The sad thing is I wonder why the prosecutors didn't simply follow due process to begin with, when it sounds like they still would have had enough to pin on him?

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    14. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, I'm just a lowly member of the unwashed masses, not one of the oligarchical leaders who are above the "law" and all, but when a contractor does major remodeling work for me and never bills me for it--I tend to notice it. Now maybe Ted has people who handle his bills for him (again, not lowering himself to our filthy level), but I find it hard to believe that his people just forgot about a major renovation.

      I also doubt that the contractor just forgot to send the bill. Most contractors I know don't do that either. Maybe it was one of those magic contractors that doesn't charge for their services.

      I don't buy for a second that this was anything less than what it appears to be--a wink/wink, nudge/nudge kind of situation where a contractor (or person behind the contractor) was bribing the good senator in hopes (nay, in EXPECTATION) of a little favoritism when Alaska's earmark windfalls were divided up. I don't care how good Steven's lawyers are--this looks, quacks, and waddles just like a duck and that indicates a duck to me.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    15. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by MBCook · · Score: 1

      Was he actually guilty? I don't think we'll ever know[...]

      I think we all know.

      Events in the last few years have only made it look more likely.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    16. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes.

      Then he should have charged them with obstruction of justice.

      Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time)

      Anything is better than nothing. Stevens spending the rest of his life rotting in a cell would have provided a pretty good deterrent to other corrupt Senators. Now, all they need is a buddy in the DOJ who can withhold a little evidence and get off scott free.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    17. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wait a minute. If I ask you for the bill or invoice on work you did for me and did not produce it, I am still waiting for it, why is this a gift? I am still waiting for the bill so I can pay it.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    18. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes.

      I think that this is far more important than a conviction for Stevens. Prosecutors all over the country need to know that they cannot get away with such things. While the judges should and do stop such things when they're seen, there is also an important point to the Justice Department performing some self-policing so that the judges don't have to find it, because when a judge finds it in one case, it potentially taints the convictions of other defendants who have been tried by anyone involved on the prosecution side of that case.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    19. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by fulldecent · · Score: 1

      Wait... so you're telling me that the executive branch acted in such a way as to allow a member of the legislative branch to walk away without prosecution??

      Inconceivable!!!

      --

      -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

    20. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big truck? I dunno. Did you see the picture of Juror #5? 450+ pounds and wearing a Nascar cap. I bet that's what they call him over at Mel's Diner when he steps off his rig for lunch.

    21. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      It's a shame the prosecution botched this case

      My conspiracy theory is that the Bush Justice Department picked a prosecuter they were pretty sure would botch the case.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    22. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Macblaster · · Score: 1

      [citation needed]

    23. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by AK+Dave · · Score: 1

      Essentially, he was found guilty of not reporting the $250K gift of home remodelling. Which he hadn't been billed for, and which was not supposed to be a gift because he expected to be billed and pay the bill, and had in fact received AND PAID interim bills for services. There may have been some botched paperwork from Stevens' office, but not to the level presented by the prosecution, and the majority of it was tainted by Bill Allen's dirty fingers.

    24. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      Stevens is way too wealthy and politically connected to be punished for any crime.

      Believe it or not, I don't believe those played a factor in the DOJ dropping the case. Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes. Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted.

      As for whether or not he's innocent or not is irrelevant at this point. He never got a fair trial. And without a fair trial, the justice system cannot prove something one way or another. He'll probably be remembered by the public as a guilty bastard, and never manage anything else for the remainder of his life. He's permanently retired now, which is the worst part that would have come from the conviction. Not the fine or the trip to Club Fed.

      Oh, I believe it. Clearly the prosecution was incredibly sloppy an unethical in this case. However, were they perfect lawyers following the letter of the law, something else would have popped up to get Stevens off the hook.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    25. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by billstewart · · Score: 1

      The OJ trials reached the correct results - the police framed him, so they don't get to throw him in jail, but he really did kill her, so the civil court awarded wergild to her family. On the other hand, he tried to trick his way out of paying, so that bizarre robbery trial seemed like just deserts.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    26. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Kozz · · Score: 5, Funny

      Coming soon to a bookstore near you: If I Renovated It, Here's How It Happened.

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    27. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Stevens is way too wealthy and politically connected to be punished for any crime.

      Believe it or not, I don't believe those played a factor in the DOJ dropping the case. Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes. Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted.

      As for whether or not he's innocent or not is irrelevant at this point. He never got a fair trial. And without a fair trial, the justice system cannot prove something one way or another. He'll probably be remembered by the public as a guilty bastard, and never manage anything else for the remainder of his life. He's permanently retired now, which is the worst part that would have come from the conviction. Not the fine or the trip to Club Fed.

      "Punish the prosecution" my ass. He's spinning it sound like he's doing Stevens a favor (and you bought his BS hook, line, and sinker, I see).

      The fact of the matter is, this was a railroad job done by a bunch of criminal attorneys, and Holder is trying to protect them. Pursuing this case means putting more scrutiny on those prosecutors, which will likely end up in criminal charges against them.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    28. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      Obama just got elected, remember?

      (Don't "whoosh!" me. I did recognize the The Princess Bride reference, I just chose to ignore it)

      --
      $ make available
    29. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pcolaman · · Score: 1

      I suspect that's what Stevens is going to be getting as well. No prison, but uncleanably tainted reputation.

      Which I doubt he'll care too much about, considering that he's 85. I don't know about you, but if I were 85 where the current life expectancy is in the high 70's, and I had a lifetime pension from the Senate (which he'll likely get to keep now that the conviction has been thrown out), I wouldn't care what anyone thought about my reputation. More than likely, I wouldn't live long enough for it to matter much.

    30. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pcolaman · · Score: 1

      In all likeliness, Stevens would still lose due to his tainted reputation, so I doubt it would change matters much.

    31. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Shining+Celebi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bush didn't clear house in the DoJ like previous Presidents had in an attempt for both sides to get along. Most of the prosecutors on this case were leftovers from Clinton.

      Then what's up with this press release from the DoJ under Bush saying that a third had submitted their resignations by March 14th and the remaining lawyers were set to be "transitioned" by June? Why did Gonzalez's Chief of Staff claim they fired all the Clinton appointees, with most gone by April 2001?

      The Department of Justice isn't supposed to be full of partisan hacks, and most of them aren't. Just because the case was against a prominent Republican Senator doesn't mean Democratic lawyers were on the case. That's why there was such a big hullaboo about the firings of DoJ lawyers for political reasons. Those lawyers were Bush appointees, and they were allegedly fired because they weren't going after enough Democrats.

    32. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ivan256 · · Score: 1, Informative

      No. Citation isn't needed. This is a discussion board, not a term paper or encyclopedia article. You don't need a citation for common knowledge, and asking for one just admits you're lazy.

      In case you still don't have time, here, let me google that for you.

      Now you can go bicker in a wikipedia discussion about whether or not the article about this 'scandal' deserves to contain the word "unprecedented" in the title.

    33. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Either Simpson was innocent but only a person with millions to hire a dream team legal defense could overcome police corruption and a county willing to bankrupt itself to get a conviction anyway or he was actually guilty but showed that if you have the money for a dream team defense, you can beat any indictment, including murder.

      Either way, as a result of the trial, we know the FBI's crime lab thinks there's a place for voting in science and god knows what other unacceptable practices. Neither possible scenario paints the justice system or police/FBI in a good light.

    34. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous+Matt · · Score: 1

      Ok, so we have Ted Stevens asking for a bill on the remodeling, like he should. But it sounds like one was never received or produced. So what was Stevens convicted of?

      I don't know, but they had him on audio tape admitting wrongdoing. They nailed that corrupt scumbag with his own tongue. Every time I see some obviously guilty criminal escape justice in this country I want to rant and rave semi-incoherently. Maybe even on /.. Maybe even today. Back in my day tape was automatic guilt. We didn't have a lawyer slick enough to convince us our ears were lying. If there was tape, you were busted, and you admitted it! You did your time first then wrote your book later, if you were lucky enough to have a book deal. Now they've got these newfangled, fancy lawyers and their technicalities. Who do you believe the fancy pants lawyers or your own ears? This gripes my butt. Grr. Thanks for listening. I'm going to go soak my +1 Chapped now.

    35. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "...but there was definitely manufactured evidence..."

      I remember watching the trials, reading about it...etc.

      I didn't see any "manufactured evidence"?? I saw the police botched keeping evidence from being tainted by bad collection and storage procedures, but, I never saw that they tried to plant evidence against OJ.

      Care to elaborate on what was found to have been planted/manufactured as far as evidence?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    36. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right. I'm puzzled at why so many here are knee-jerkedly boo-ing the court's decision. Slashdotters are supposed to be freedom-loving folks who demand that law enforcement and prosecution play by the rules. I bet they'd be cheering the decision if it were Stallman or TBP's asses on the line. Overzealous law enforcement and prosecution is a BIG problem these days, especially since Bush took charge.

      It's time we slap their wrists and say "No! Bad lawyer! Bad Cop!" and make 'em sit in the corner for awhile. They don't play by the rules, they face punishment through the very laws they claim to be upholding. Sanction their asses.

      I'd rather see a few O.J.s or Ted Stevens go free than thousands of innocents jailed through miscarriages of justice!

    37. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Jurily · · Score: 1

      It's a shame the prosecution botched this case and withheld that evidence from the court

      Shame, if it was accidental. If not, well done.

    38. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by kkissane · · Score: 1

      The voters get to speak towards him filing his duties as a public official. They have. This is far more than the prosecution botching the case, the judge reviewing the conviction appears to be willing to prosecute the prosecutors for criminal acts of abuse.

    39. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and with the judge ruling like he did against the prosecution (as opposed to for the truth) those tubes are bound to get clogged, and the sewage is going to spill everywhere. Just you wait. We have not seen the end of this yet. There will be smelly days to come.

    40. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time)

      You don't want to be the politician responsible for having a guy die in prison serving time for something that Average Joe recognizes as a quite minor, completely peaceable crime.

      On the other hand, you *really* don't want to be one of the prosecutors who is now specifically on record with serious misconduct...

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    41. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by squidguy · · Score: 1

      The LAPD definitely engaged in tactics that were unethical to say the least and he got off the hook largely because of that. Was he actually guilty? I don't think we'll ever know, but there was definitely manufactured evidence that tainted things enough to get him off.
      Manufactured evidence?
      Unethical tactics?
      Please elaborate.

    42. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guilty party is the Bush administration and their use of the Attorney General's office to play political games with legal prosecutions.

      The prosecutors were switched at the last minute at the behest of the AG, this led to a three stooges performance by the prosecutor that was intended to derail the prosecution of a Republican Senator during an election year.

    43. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by DM9290 · · Score: 2, Funny

      that he is an innocent man who was framed?

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    44. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      but there was definitely manufactured evidence that tainted things enough to get him off.

      Huh?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    45. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Very false dichotomy, as there is a third possibility. He was the murder, and the victim of a corrupt investigation. However, he had the wealth and status to hire a dream team defense and beat a murder indictment that he, paradoxically, both deserved (because committed murder) and did not deserve (because the government cannot be allowed to break the law to enforce the law).

      Unfortunately, the way this paradox was resolved is was probably the best we could hope for, jury nullification on the criminal charges and civil penalties leveled against him. The other possibilities are worse in at least one, perhaps multiple, senses of the word "justice". An accquited OJ with, no civil penalties, would have been complete injustice for the murder victims families, and to a lesser extent society at large. OJ in jail would have been a just punishment for the crime murder, but convicting anyone, even actual criminals, as a result of a grossly incompotent and corrupt investigation would make society less just by reducing the State's burden of proof. That's reality for you...

    46. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by squidguy · · Score: 1

      At least this didn't come about by way of pardon, ala Clinton's actions to forgive Dan Rostenkowski (served nary a day).
      In Stevens, US dismissed, but could still bring another case if additional evidence exists.

    47. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Just wait six years and Begich will lose. He only managed to win this time because the Republican was under indictment for most of the campaign and convicted before the conclusion. Any halfway popular Republican will beat him in 2014. Hell, if Sarah Palin had any foresight she'd be planning a run at his seat herself instead of trying to get some washed up 85 year old back into the job.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    48. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I don't care how good Steven's lawyers are--this looks, quacks, and waddles just like a duck and that indicates a duck to me.

      It has nothing to do with how good his lawyers are. It has everything to do with how bad the DOJ lawyers were. If they hadn't withheld evidence and allowed him to have a fair trial then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    49. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Shining+Celebi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Now you can go bicker in a wikipedia discussion about whether or not the article about this 'scandal' deserves to contain the word "unprecedented" in the title.

      The scandal wasn't about the Bush administration replacing Department of Justice lawyers with their own appointees, as many Presidents have done before. The scandal was about the Bush Administration, particularly Gonzalez and Sampson, firing Bush-appointed lawyers who weren't "performing" well enough. There's a big difference. Especially since the DoJ is supposed to be nonpartisan, and the criterion for performance seemed to be whether or not you pursued indictments against Democrats before or after election-time.

    50. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      multiple detectives were forced to "plead the fifth" because evidence was not found EXACTLY where or when their testimony said it was could not back that up with paperwork because department collection and preservation policies weren't followed to the letter, yet that was not disclosed by the prosecutors.

      At a minimum they screwed up and tried to cover for it in court. They didn't follow the rules, dot the i's and cross the t's and somebody got away with it... or it could be worse.. we just can't know, because they tried to lie about following the little rules.

    51. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, Bush did clear house. It's common knowledge so no citation needed right? I'm sure you're too lazy to look so read Shining Celebi's post below yours.

      The important part:

      "Both McNulty and Sampson acknowledged that the Bush administration, like the Clinton administration, brought in a new slate of U.S. attorneys within a few months of taking office.

      But historical data compiled by the Senate show the pattern going back to President Reagan."

      Oops, I guess a citation is needed when your assertion is wrong.

    52. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      OFC hes guilty, but now a black guy is in charge, the police have to concentrate on fucking up the trials of blatantly guilty rich white guys.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    53. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by MJMullinII · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes, but let's not forget that Sarah Palin also thought that Africa was a country.

      I'm not sure she is anywhere near talented enough to pull off a conspiracy like that, considering the Senator Begich can simply ignore her dumbass request for what it is, SOUR GRAPES.

      Let us also not forget that Mark Begich isn't a newcomer to politics, his father, Nick Begich was a very popular politician from Alaska (U.S. House of Representatives) until the day he died (disappeared in a famous, well famous in Alaska anyway, plane crash).

      In fact, he actually beat his Republican opponent for reelection AFTER HE DIED (56% to 44%).

      I'm not sure Mr. Begich is going to be as easy to get rid of as some people think.

      --
      "Don't be a martyr -- BE THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY!"
    54. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by MJMullinII · · Score: 1

      Just wait six years and Begich will lose. He only managed to win this time because the Republican was under indictment for most of the campaign and convicted before the conclusion. Any halfway popular Republican will beat him in 2014. Hell, if Sarah Palin had any foresight she'd be planning a run at his seat herself instead of trying to get some washed up 85 year old back into the job.

      Let us also not forget that Mark Begich isn't a newcomer to politics, his father, Nick Begich was a very popular politician from Alaska (U.S. House of Representatives) until the day he died (disappeared in a famous, well famous in Alaska anyway, plane crash).

      In fact, he actually beat his Republican opponent for reelection AFTER HE DIED (56% to 44%).

      I'm not sure Mr. Begich is going to be as easy to get rid of as some people think.

      --
      "Don't be a martyr -- BE THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY!"
    55. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Then he should have charged them with obstruction of justice.

      There's nothing to stop him from doing that if enough damning evidence has been gathered by the independent investigator,

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    56. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pugugly · · Score: 2, Informative

      Factually incorrect (As I suspected it might be. Apologies, but your statement smelled unlikely, simply based on the rules for pardons typically respected by Presidents. Bush was atypical.)

      From the Wikipedia article "In 1996, he pleaded guilty to reduced charges of mail fraud. He was fined and was sentenced to 17 months in prison, of which he served 15. Rostenkowski was pardoned in December 2000 by President Clinton."

      Basically at that point the pardon was symbolic - he had served his time, admitted his guilt, et al.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    57. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by SomeJoel · · Score: 1

      the police framed him, so they don't get to throw him in jail, but he really did kill he

      If he really did kill her, then how was he framed? Framing implies pinning guilt on an innocent person. Planting "extra" evidence on a guilty person to bolster your case is wrong and illegal, but it isn't exactly framing. I'm not saying he did or didn't kill anybody, but he can't have "really killed her" and "been framed" at the same time.

      --
      <Complete your profile by adding a signature!>
    58. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Dancindan84 · · Score: 1

      Inconceivable!!!

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      --
      "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
    59. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which I doubt he'll care too much about, considering that he's 85. I don't know about you, but if I were 85 where the current life expectancy is in the high 70's, and I had a lifetime pension from the Senate (which he'll likely get to keep now that the conviction has been thrown out), I wouldn't care what anyone thought about my reputation. More than likely, I wouldn't live long enough for it to matter much.

      Just to play Devil's Advocate - I'll suggest another possibility. People of power like to think in terms of immortality. You buy a mausoleum. You establish institutions. And if you're a public servant, you consider your "legacy." You want history to record you as a person who stood out in your time in office; even an individual who did great things. Stevens has already had a taste of history (often he's noted as being the longest sitting Republican in the Senate). Surely he would have preferred it if people remembered him that way, not for corruption.

    60. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pugugly · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm torn.

      At a minimum, one wishes you could pigeonhole Senator Stevens and ask if, having had justice department people play fast and loose with the rules of evidence, he has rethought his opinions on allowing evidence to be withheld in military tribunals holding people at Guatanamo. People who have a lot less pull and power than, say, the senior in the U.S. Senate.

      If he say "Gee no, that is just fine", put on the record he has stated he has no problem with evidence being withheld from the defense and throw his ass back in jail.

      Actually, no, don't ask, he *has* said exactly that. Throw his ass back in jail.

      New Rule: The Rules of Evidence for Republicans must allow any evidence that they advocated allowing for other people.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    61. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by steelfood · · Score: 0, Troll

      Granted, you won't remember because a remodeling of your house is quite the big deal. But if you were like Stevens and had remodeling concurrently done on all seven of your houses--oh wait. Sorry, wrong guy.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    62. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Moryath · · Score: 2, Informative

      Prosecutors withheld evidence from the defense.

      They did so knowing that they were violating the law, and did so deliberately to influence the result of an election.

      The election results, at the very least, deserve to be thrown out. This was despicable. Moreover, as far as Democrats, this was just business as usual.

    63. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ROU+Nuisance+Value · · Score: 1

      Much as I loathe the vain, arrogant and idiotic Stevens, eliminating the Bush-instigated corruption and incompetence at the DOJ should be Holder's highest priority. Otherwise, there will be a lot more cases like this.

    64. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by superbus1929 · · Score: 0, Troll

      He's already been punished. He's out of the Senate.

      --
      Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
    65. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You used to have to be a real statesman to be a US senator...

      Supposedly up until the 1990s, they'd have their debates, they'd argue issues and then they'd go have a drink together afterwords. Country first, all that stuff. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't be friends.. Now, between the extreme partisanship and the overt corruption, things don't look so good.

      With Stevens, what's worse is this was a fairly small fry kind of benefit, somehow they duffed that up, every time he's on vacation he's "comped" something, how often does he buy a meal? How often do you think he receives a "discount" like this on other things? How many cabinet nominations didn't pay tax? How come it never came out until they were up for cabinet jobs? I didn't pay tax on a few thousand dollars of 1099 work I did a year back, believe, me, the IRS let's you know... If you're a senator though, seems that's just a technicality, maybe some messed up paperwork.

    66. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I love how for rich, powerful people, losing their position "is punishment enough" while for ordinary people 2-5 years in prison "is punishment enough".

      This also resonates with O.J. in that a good case against a criminal was ruined by a problematic law enforcement agent. I suspect those problems are found a lot more often by expensive attorneys with large staffs than they are by public defenders with no staff.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    67. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, um, you might not have noticed, but the President at the time, was a Republican as was his Attorney General. How did the Democrats manage this feat of bi-partisanship? This seems much more likely to have been a case of incompetence and overzealous prosecution than deliberate political sabotage. Why would the Bush DOJ want Stevens to lose for political reason?

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    68. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by gnulinuxrat · · Score: 1

      So many people show thier partisan, closed mind, bias. It was not a mistake, it was deliberate. A district attorney is obligated under the law to allow a defendant to exam the evidence. Period. This happens to people all day, everyday. That should scare the hell out of you, it scares me. Essentially it shows that unless you are lucky enough to afford a great attorney you can be convicted on a whim. I know it happened to me, I had a prosecutor, a district attorney literally make things up during my trail. Bad lawyers let this happen. This can happen to you, for some of you, it will happen. Someone on this site will be prosecuted in the future at the whim of a district attorney. So go ahead and argue that the guy was guilty and all republicans are bad, just think about who will be left to cry out in your defense if you people continue not to see past your own bias and prejudice.

      --
      gnulinuxrat
    69. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I think the clothing evidence was sufficient. Rare gloves and boots - his statements he never owned them - then pictures of him wearing them.

      The blood samples from some locations had chemicals indicating they came from the police lab and were planted. Some overzealous policeman wanted to *make sure* O.J. was found guilty- and in doing so, helped O.J. get off.

      But I get your grammar nit. Framing applies to someone innocent of the crime.

      It has an ironic feel to it. Like a story about someone people thought was innocent being framed- but no one ever knew that secretly they really WERE guilty. So I guess the 90% of blacks and 25% of other folks who felt he was innocent at the time (and still about 35% blacks/unknown others% last I read) would say O.J. was framed (by the definition of the word).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    70. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      or you could stop watching HBO and get back to reality

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    71. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sribe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, if you'd followed the trial, you'd know that he did a whole heck of a lot of renovations, and actually paid for a lot of them. In that context, not noticing having never received an additional bill for more work is at least plausible, unlike having never received the bill.

    72. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "but there was definitely manufactured evidence that tainted things enough to get him off."

      No there wasn't. There was mishandled evidence; no one seriously alleged in court that evidence was "manufactured" (and what his lawyers said out of court is wholly irrelevant.)

      That, combined with an incompetent prosecution, a judge hell bent on not having the case appealed, and a cop who once used the word "nigger" got him off.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    73. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      I don't watch HBO so your quip is lost on me. :P

    74. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not a "Sandman", "For whom the bell tolls", and "Seek and Destroy" as well?
      Collect them all and get the special Metallica collection acheivement.

    75. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "Believe it or not, I don't believe those played a factor in the DOJ dropping the case. Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes. Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted."

      Only one of those factors really matters - he's "no longer a sitting Senator". The goal of the Justice department was to get him out of office; having accomplished that goal, why spend the resources on trying to do it again.

      Oh, Stevens is corrupt; so are many of the rest. But why doesn't Justice go after the rest? For instance, why haven't they gone after Tom Daschle for breaking the law on not lobbying after leaving office? Sure, one could argue that, even though he was paid by a lobbying firm to do NOTHING until the ban was up, he wasn't *actually* lobbying. But that's right up there with "they were loans" as a lame excuse.

      Personally I believe that Justice was out to get revenge on the Republicans for the firing of the prosecutors. There is this myth that Justice was free of political taint before Bush started replacing prosecutors. That's a fairy tale propagated by the Justice department themselves to gloss over how political they really are. Prosecutors are appointed by the President - of course they are political animals. What they haven't been is overtly partisan, but I think the Stevens prosecution may help to remove that fig leaf, and Eric Holder is in the process of snatching it right off.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    76. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by fugue · · Score: 1

      Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes. Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted.

      Those factors are disgusting. The justice system isn't really about punishing people, but rather about preventing crimes. Those who break the law are punished not for the sake of their souls or anything, but to provide a disincentive for others to do the same. If people are not punished, then there is no reason for the next guy to obey the law.

      All of which applies just as well to the prosecution. The perpetrators of sham trials should also be punished--indeed, they should be held to a very high standard. As should senators... and presidents... especially those!

      --
      "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
    77. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      Believe it or not, I don't believe those played a factor in the DOJ dropping the case.

      The primary factor in this case is that the Bush/Gonzalez justice department, with their federal prosecutors hired straight out of these so-called "Christian" law schools (like "Liberty University") were never going to take seriously a case against a powerful Republican.

      That's the real crime in this case. That an entire justice department was subverted by incompetent appointees whose only qualification was their loyalty to the primacy of Biblical Law over the Constitution and eagerness to please Alberto (Abu) Gonzalez by investigating Democrats that were up for election is a matter of no little shame for our country.

      It's going to take more than a generation to air the stank of the Bush Administration out of our system.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    78. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I don't think those words mean what you think they mean, although they sure get tossed around Slashdot a lot.

    79. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...well famous in Alaska anyway...

      self-pwn't

    80. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Troll

      The election results, at the very least, deserve to be thrown out. This was despicable. Moreover, as far as Democrats, this was just business as usual [courttv.com].The election results, at the very least, deserve to be thrown out. This was despicable. Moreover, as far as Democrats, this was just business as usual [courttv.com].

      Here we have an example of an idiot who doesn't realize that the justice department that prosecuted Ted Stevens was run by Republicans. But don't think for a second that "Moryath" is going to let facts cloud his judgment once he's got a good head of liberal-hate going.

      I bet he thinks Clinton was commander-in-chief on 9/11, too. Don't laugh. I've heard it said on "conservative" talk radio.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    81. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by DenDude · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, but let's not forget that Sarah Palin also thought that Africa was a country.

      Wow, still going with this one? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/arts/television/13hoax.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

      --
      A Haiku: my language choices/assembler pascal lisp c/old school programmer
    82. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by SnapShot · · Score: 1

      ...Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes.

      I can't help but wonder if this is leading up to a purge of Monica Goodling's little religious wack-job cadre? Holder couldn't get away with out-and-out firing of career prosecutors, but if there's documentation that that the Liberty University and Jerry Farwell Law School graduates are incompetent then they can be sacked without too much political fallout.

      To be fair, I don't have any evidence that the specific prosecutors involved in this are Goodling hires, but it seems to me that perception is 90% of politics. The DoJ prosecutors are still (perceived to be) heavily tainted by the last administration so the current administration may be looking for any excuse to bring in new, professional, and un-biased prosecutors.

      --
      Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
    83. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sort of like the first Simpson trial. The LAPD definitely engaged in tactics that were unethical to say the least and he got off the hook largely because of that. Was he actually guilty?

      YES! Good lord.

    84. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Additionally, the withheld evidence would probably not have helped Stevens.
      And as some had pointed out, part of that chaos was engendered by the Bush administration, which replaced the prosecutor at short notice.

    85. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      Here we have an example of an idiot who doesn't realize that the career lawyers responsible for the case were all Democrats.
      But don't think for a second that "PopeRatzo" is going to let facts cloud his judgment once he's got a good head of conservative-hate going.

      To expand a little bit, maybe the career lawyers who pushed this case weren't micromanaged by the political appointees. Maybe Republicans are more ethical than PopeRatzo who suffers from a severe case of projection.

    86. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's not really a false dichotomy. The case I stated where he was guilty but got off due to a dream team does not preclude the possibility that there was also police corruption. Even in that case, MOST murder defendants cannot afford a sufficiently vigorous defense to drag the corruption into the light. However, all of that and a few more are mere variations on a theme, none of which make the justice system look any better than the two primary cases I presented.

      As for justice, appropriately criminalizing corrupt practices and actually enforcing those laws would be a step in the right direction. If someone gets off due to corrupt investigative practices (as opposed to merely sloppy practices), that is in itself a crime committed by the investigators.

      If sloppy practices lead to the indictment and prosecution of an (apparent) innocent, at some point it rises to the level of criminal negligence. Such things may not end a person's life, but they can and have ended a person's life as they knew it. Even when a conviction doesn't happen (as opposed to where it does and is later overturned, possibly after years in prison) the effects on a person's life certainly will be serious and never good.

      As for the typical strength of criminal defense, I find it shocking that the FBI crime lab isn't seriously questioned any time their evidence is used in a prosecution. They have already testified that they violate the principles of scientific evidence as a matter of course.

    87. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Ok, regardless of whether or not an invoice was ever produced, the Senate is required to report things like this on their financial disclosure forms so that under the table payments can be discovered.

      Kind of like how Charles Rangel was arrested for not reporting income, or reporting the free rent he gets from his rent controlled *apartments* from a New York developer that is one of the companies he is affiliated with?

      Oh wait. Rangel is a democrat, so he gets a free pass.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_B._Rangel#2008_ethics_investigations_and_tax_controversies

    88. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think those words mean what you think they mean, although they sure get tossed around Slashdot a lot.

      The error is acknowledge, but simply replace "jury nullification" with "acquital" and the rest of the point still stands.

    89. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No matter how guilty someone obviously is, an overzealous cop or prosecutor can always set them free by making sure they won't be able to get a fair trial. Just ask Mark Fuhrman.

    90. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but I'm still gonna play golf with the guy.

    91. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by el+americano · · Score: 1

      So failing to follow procedure becomes manufacturing evidence in the minds of many. I thought he didn't get convicted because Mark Fuhrman was a racist and the jury was 9/12ths black. Never has the race card been so effectively played.

      --
      Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
    92. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Moryath · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here we have an example of a pure idiot who cannot grasp the simple fact that the prosecutors in the case are all lifelong Democrats.

      Then again, I've never known PopeRatzo to let these pesky "facts" get in the way of his insane ramblings.

    93. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Moryath · · Score: 4, Informative

      See response to "PopeRatzo."

      The prosecutors involved in this malicious, illegal prosecution "just so happen" to be lifelong Democrats. The "Bush DOJ" had nothing to do with it.

    94. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by mi · · Score: 1

      As for whether or not he's innocent or not is irrelevant at this point. He never got a fair trial. And without a fair trial, the justice system cannot prove something one way or another.

      Am I the only one suspecting, the Justice Department deliberately mishandled the case to allow the man to get off? This is something, that can be done very gently and without any trail. Just appoint your worst (instead of the best, as a high-profile case deserves) prosecutor and watch him screw up here and here...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    95. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stevens wasn't part of the President's Wing. Really he wasn't.

    96. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Informative

      The justice system is about accounting for crimes. Preventing them sounds nice but is likely not possible.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    97. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by niktemadur · · Score: 1

      Stole my thunder, you did.

      Analogies can be drawn with the Wall Street fiasco of the past few years:

      * This is a culture prone to the dangers of greedy self-serving career advancement, one ruthless 'guilty' verdict at a time replacing the profits of short-selling and put options, imprisonment of innocent people replacing the bilking of hapless investors/taxpayers.
      * This is a culture in which oversight to prevent and/or correct such abuses was virtually non-existent during the Bush years, actively encouraged in some highly politicized cases to break the law in order to goose-step the GOP line (cue nefarious little POS Alberto Gonzalez).
      * Inevitably, the system putrefied to the point that the inbreds began cannibalizing their own (cue Senator Series Of Tubes).
      * What they did to Stevens had become the way they operated on a daily basis. Everything these inbreds touched, turned to shit.

      Now, Ol' Series Of Tubes is a high profile figure, with a couple orders of magnitude more resources than Average Joe. How voluminous is the mountain of people that have been railroaded, may be on death row even, with no chance of Holder reviewing their case?

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    98. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Toonol · · Score: 1

      What, are you saying he's wrong? He's not.

      Planting "extra" evidence on a guilty person to bolster your case is wrong and illegal.

      That's completely correct.

    99. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Yes, but let's not forget that Sarah Palin also thought that Africa was a country.

      Perhaps you honestly thought this was true; now that you know it isn't (see the other response to your post), please don't repeat it again. That would be intellectually dishonest. The same applies to all readers.

    100. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ameyer17 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I bet he thinks Clinton was commander-in-chief on 9/11, too. Don't laugh. I've heard it said on "conservative" talk radio.

      To be fair, Clinton does deserve blame for some of what led to 9/11, even though he wasn't in office on 9/11.
      Then again, the blame goes at least as far back as Reagan giving Osama weapons to fight the Soviets with.

    101. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Toonol · · Score: 1

      So many people show thier partisan, closed mind, bias. It was not a mistake, it was deliberate.

      That almost gave me whiplash. That was an abrupt and surely unintentional 180 degree reversal.

    102. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone needs to mod the above comment up. Stevens was guilty in the court of public opinion, but he was never given a fair trial in the actual court that matters. Innocent until proven guilty, amirite? It appears that the only guilty party was Bill Allen for attempting to bribe a Senator. He's already been tried and convicted of bribery. He changed his testimony of whether this very event happened. That little (I say this sarcastically) piece of evidence is exactly what caused this in the first place. It appears to me that Allen already knew he was going down, and he was going to take as many people with him as he could. Did Stevens do anything wrong? Maybe. The court couldn't prove it fairly, so we will never know. It's unfortunate that the court of public opinion already had Stevens tried and convicted before this was anywhere near a trial. Gotta love the liberal press.

    103. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by atamido · · Score: 1

      I also doubt that the contractor just forgot to send the bill. Most contractors I know don't do that either.

      I think you might be surprised just how disorganized contractors can be. I had a friend that got his first IT job working for a construction outfit. He set up a small Access database to keep track of bills to clients, to replace their paper filing method. The company instantly increased their profit by hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. There were that many bills being misplaced, lost, and forgotten about.

      Of course, a $250K bill might be a different matter.

    104. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Thank you for pointing that out. Readers who want to know more about Jury Nullification are invited to visit The Fully Informed Jury Association.

    105. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      There was more than that, like the racist remarks, but the clincher for the jury (and media) was that damning evidence was stated on the record as discovered in two different places on two different days by different detectives. I was being generous in that at LEAST they were trigger happy and sloppy in their collection. At worst they were racist, evidence-planting and trying to get an easy "black man done it" conviction.

      Personally, I think they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They had real evidence, but they didn't do their job in collecting and documenting it and tried to lie/make up the missing data points when the defense started poking holes. The racist comments added a "malice" factor to the incompetence and the jury had no choice but to cut him loose.

    106. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by mdf356 · · Score: 1

      The fact of the matter is, this was a railroad job done by a bunch of criminal attorneys, and Holder is trying to protect them.

      You're not a lawyer, I take it.

      Having the U.S. Attorney General say that you butchered a prosecution so badly that it's not worth retying is a huge black mark on your record.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    107. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by whoop · · Score: 1

      Why do you think he would be let off one way or another? Because he's rich, a Republican? Living in Illinois, I can tell you rich politicians, Republicans, Democrats all do time. Look for another one to go in the coming months.

    108. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by anagama · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why doesn't this get modded up when the partisan "it's the fault of the Democrats" or "it's the fault of the Republicans" goes to "+5 myopic"? I can say with 100% certainty that 99.999% of our political problems are due to the Republicans and/or Democrats. So why don't we jettison them all?

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    109. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      What the Bush DoJ failed to do was to not clean house by firing, as many as possible, those who were appointed by previous rivals... as Clinton and other presidents before him would and have done.

      Of course, this is assuming the guilty prosecutors were 'appointable' - that is: subject to such house cleanings.

    110. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Why would the Bush DOJ want Stevens to lose for political reason?

      Maybe they realized that Stevens was so bad he even made the Republicans look worse. I'm a supporter of Bush, but thought Stevens represented everything bad about Washington and nothing good. Of course, I feel that way about almost every one Congress, especially the Senate, regardless of party.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    111. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Muros · · Score: 1

      Stevens is way too wealthy and politically connected to be punished for any crime.

      Indeed

      Some of the factors claimed to play into his decision were the facts that Stevens is 85 (unlikely to be able to serve much jail time), no longer a sitting Senator, and that any movement forward on this case would be tainted.

      Standard plea. Works well in most cases, whether white collar millions embezzling shithead, paedophile danger to any child within 50 miles, etc. etc.

      As for whether or not he's innocent or not is irrelevant at this point.

      Bullshit. that is the single most important thing.

      He never got a fair trial. And without a fair trial, the justice system cannot prove something one way or another. He'll probably be remembered by the public as a guilty bastard, and never manage anything else for the remainder of his life. He's permanently retired now, which is the worst part that would have come from the conviction. Not the fine or the trip to Club Fed.

      He's gonna be remembered as someone who didn't get a fair trial, and was therefore let off, despite being a corrupt SOB, and let live out his remaining years sitting on the large pile of cash he has accumulated over the years.

    112. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Muros · · Score: 1

      The prosecutors involved in this malicious, illegal prosecution "just so happen" to be lifelong Democrats. The "Bush DOJ" had nothing to do with it.

      Really who gives a shit. Do you still think there's a discernible difference between either party when it gets to a federal governance level? I'm tired of all the Democrat vs. Republican bullshit I see every day on /. They are all career politicians who have sold their souls to the highest corporate bidder. America is fucked until it develops a true multi-party democracy where people have to actually THINK about the policies they are voting for, not the party they vote for cause their dad and granddad did too. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, we are fucked until it happens too, given America's current place in the global order.

    113. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The irony is, Simpson is now in pound-in-your-ass prison in Nevada for armed robbery.

    114. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Keebler71 · · Score: 1
      Very false dichotomy, as there is a third possibility. He was the murder, and the victim of a corrupt investigation.

      Why does everyone assume the worst (malice) when simple incompetence is more likely. Every bit of "frame/corrpution" evidence against the LAPD could equally be attributed to simple mistakes with the exception of the Mark Ferman audio tapes. In that case his own explanation (that he was acting in character and hamming it up for an author) seem just as plausible as the defense accusations of racism. Stupid, but plausible.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    115. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      You seem to have forgotten the US attorney firings that happened for political reasons under Bush. Why did he not do it in this case if the Democrats were doing such a terrible thing for political reasons?

      He would have actually had a legitimate reason beyond "hurr durr democrats"!

    116. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by 7Prime · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hate to break it to you, but there's absolutely NOTHING partisian about this in the slightest... unless Republicans are going after their own these days. The department of justice is a "neutral" body in a conservative state, and is directly under the reigns of a very conservative governor (more conservative than Uncle Ted). There's not a single card-carrying democrat involved here. Hell, there are very few card-carrying democrats in the state of Alaska! The AK Justice Department has a history of being very right-leaning. THEY'RE the ones who indicted him, and THEY'RE the ones who screwed up the case.

      I'd be more inclined to believe that they purposefully botched the thing in order to make sure Ted didn't go to jail.

      --
      Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
    117. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by theantipop · · Score: 1

      So, is a lifelong Democrat any different than a lifelong Democrat? I think to really make your point you should have really called them OMG LIFELONG DEMOCRATS!!!

    118. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      First off I'm an Alaskan.
      Many in the state love "Uncle Ted" for the huge quantity of pork barrel projects he was able to bring to Alaska.
      Fun things like "The bridge to nowhere". We even got a cool missile base right dead center of the state. He brought some serious bacon home. He was also very nearly reelected too. Seven felony counts for Uncle Ted? His supporters didn't seem to care.

      Was he guilty of taking money under the table? You bet your life he did! They all do. The longer anyone stays in the marble palace the more corrupt they get. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Politics attracts the most crooked cocksuckers on the planet, like flies on shit.

      I'm a firm believer in term limits. Seems the longer some arrogant prick is in office the more time they have to pal up to corporate lobbyists. Before you know it, some asshole senator gets caught on his knees in an airport bathroom.

      As for Uncle Ted, the guy is 85 years old. Hell, we got him out of his ivory tower. Let him go so he can die in his mountain chalet, a miserable old man. This way everybody can save face too. He probably had some good dirt on most of his associates as well. I bet if he got sent to prison, he probably could have brought down the whole house of cards out of spite.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    119. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pugugly · · Score: 1

      Heh - Troll = Noting Ted had no problems with hidden evidence when it was other people.

      Sarah, is that you!

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    120. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by countvlad · · Score: 1

      Because then you get labeled as a "right-wing fringe" Libertarian and no one will take you seriously, regardless of any rationality and logic in your arguments. They're the unfairly labeled internet trolls of the political world.

      Personally, I find Libertarians to be a perfect blend of fiscal responsibility, personal liberty, and laissez-faire social values. Much less emphasis on the Federal government's one-size fits all approach to problems also appeals to me. After all, I like my Federal Gov't like I like my kernels: small, fast, and unnoticeable, none of which describes the Fed. under R&D's.

      More socially open minded than Republicans, but less socialist than Democrats, and with a greater emphasis on personal liberty and fiscal responsibility than either, Libertarians are the silently ignored third option.

    121. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by anagama · · Score: 1

      Very nice summary -- I too would like to see libertarians gain some traction in this world.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    122. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow! Because political affiliation automatically means that's you lose all objectivity and are completely bias in all aspects of life! Oh right, this is the US we're talking about... so much for my sarcasm.

    123. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Some overzealous policeman wanted to *make sure* O.J. was found guilty"

      That or some crooked cop wanted to *make sure* O.J. couldn't be convicted.

    124. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      My point is whether they find him guilty or not, he failed his duties as a senator. It's a shame the prosecution botched this case and withheld that evidence from the court as he's still guilty of failing to disclose this information publicly on his financial disclosure form.

      My understanding was that he was invoiced for the renovations, the invoices in which he was provided didn't contain everything as he expected them to though. From the get go, this was a situation where Stevens requested everything to be documented and above the board and someone took their own initiative to hide costs for whatever reasons. The way they found out about it was because Stevens did file his disclosures and all and something just didn't add up.

      If you want to "seriously" look at this, you might want to consider the possibility that it was a setup from the beginning by a political rival in cohorts with the district prosecutor who knew that it would ruin his chances of winning the next election. I mean if Stevens did turn in all the invoices he was given and actually did believe there was a full accounting of the work done and supplies provided as his defense always claimed, then a prosecutor finding out about a mishap where someone told someone else to not forward an invoice just to have a very publicly discussed corruption trial in the year an election in which his office was up for grabs with a conviction just 8 days before election day- just to have the conviction overturned with that harsh of language from the judge toward the prosecution is more then a little "coincidental". Even judges on the take and under the influence of "money and power" don't berate the prosecutor when over turning cases. They quietly find a flaw and make it stick, not draw huge amounts of public attention to themselves.

      It is quite possible that Stevens made every attempt at complying with the disclosure rules (which would have been handled in house, not a court of law) and was undermined by sabotage within the project itself.

    125. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I just got these bitching blowjob from my intern, lied under oath about some other bitch, and I still got be be President!"

    126. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      How would they know that the prosecution was for political reasons and not because of the evidence they provided in court. I mean the prosecutor broke the law in refusing to provide evidence that it knew would help in the defense which also went contrary to all his training, do you actually think that he showed his superiors that evidence and cleared the withholding of it?

      BTW, the political firings of those prosecutors are allegations. Little more then that anyways. Reasons were given and the supposed political ones offered as the accusations had to do with the prosecutor not prosecuting illegal aliens known to have broken the law (that's why their called illegal aliens, not immigrants), not because they were democrats. One of them happened to of been involved in some investigation that continues in his absence and the conclusion was scrutinized by the democrats but found no wrongs in it.

      Why you ask, because they made it look legitimate and contrary to all the claims otherwise, Bush didn't/doesn't cover for other people who broke the law. Scooter Libby is a prime example of this, Bush commuted his sentence, he didn't give him a pardon, he didn't influence the trial, he didn't stop the trial, he waited until it was concluded and then commuted the sentence but left the fines and criminal record.

    127. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by TheoMurpse · · Score: 0, Troll

      You raise very good points, but I have to call you on this:

      that's why their called illegal aliens, not immigrants

      You seem to have forgotten the chief definition of "immigrant":

      a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to settle there

      The word "immigrant" normally connotes no legality of movement. It is only you (and a small group of people) who pretend that "immigrant" means "legal migrant" rather than "in-migrant" like it actually means to the largest portion of the English-speaking world.

    128. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think we lost "automatically" when the judge blasted the prosecutor for his actions that at the very basic levels of his training knew was wrong before even contemplating taking them.

      This isn't about everyone, it's about one person who acted so heinously that there really isn't another reasonable explanation. And the claim of the party in the executive as a counter doesn't hold water when you examine "these" facts.

    129. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I don't know, he got damn close to winning when everyone actually did think he was guilty.

      Now this? Stevens could certainly win, if someone bothered to put him back up before he goes senile.

      They won't, of course, but that's mostly because the Republican leadership are probably wanting to (finally) get someone else in there who can be in the Senate for the next 50 years.

    130. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because when one is forced into a bi-polar view of something that has a virtually infinite number of dimensions, like politics, one tends to think that every single problem in the world is caused by the people who took the other view.

      So a lot of people subscribing to the oversimplified term 'democrat' will judge any claims about all other 'democrats' as faeces from a male bovine, while making equally wild claims about the actions of people who support the oversimplified 'republican' view. And vice versa.

    131. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      How do you know it's a "pound-you-in-your-ass" prison? In the US do you have different types of prisons, some with ass poundage and some without?

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    132. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "Apparently, Holder felt it more important to punish the prosecution on this one than nail Senator Tubes."

      To me this indicates the judge thinks getting free shit is part of high office, sorta like some supreme court judges think it's ok to shot a fleeing "prowler". Sure it's sloppy work (or mischief) but he was convicted by jury, should this not go to appeal to a jury rather than one judge overturning 12 angry men?

      Disclaimer: Not from US, not red or blue, sorta purple and green....

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    133. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      Those "12 angry [wo]men" were fed misinformation. (i.e. lies) I don't know about your country, but here that's called a mistrial. And when a mistrial happens, the verdict must be vacated and a new trial begun.

      That's what happened in this case. The only catch is that Holder (the head lawyer for the Department of Justice) decided not to retry the case. He's forcing the prosecution to drop all charges due to their misconduct during the first trial. Unless they drop the charges with prejudice, the DoJ can still retry the case at a later date. But for now, there's no case without any prosecution.

      In short, the judge did not overstep his bounds. All his did was uphold his responsibilities. It was the decision of the prosecution not to go forward on a retrial.

    134. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      Two things:

      The [citation needed] was posted in response to a comment saying that Bush didn't fire all the lawyers up front.

      Adding "Unprecedented" to the title is editorializing. Any publication claiming to be unbiased should title an article about the scandal in the most quantitative way possible. Impressively, Wikipedia managed to make the right decision here despite the majority of contributors to the article having a partisan bias.

    135. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but this is crap because all that wealth is passed along to his family.

      Tell me, what is junior doing with his life these days? And junior's kids? No aspirations for politics?

      Precedence is set, trends will replay...

      Grandpa got away with it, and so his name will cover me too!

      Just look at the Kennedys

    136. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by eldorel · · Score: 1

      No, The justice system is a deterrent.
      Trying to catch every single crime is a waste of resources, plain and simple.
      The whole point of punishments is, and has always been, to convince the average criminal that whatever reward they may receive from the crime is not worth the risk.

      example, joe criminal robs the bank, kills a teller and his hung for it in a rather public trial.
      Joe sixpack sees the hanging, and decides that perhaps $10,000 in small bills isn't worth it.

      That's the idea anyway.

    137. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by JWW · · Score: 1

      What you fail to realize is that the Bush administration was soundly and consistently lambasted in public for trying to fire any DOJ prosecutors. Every attempt to do so was painted (rightly or wrongly) as a purely political move.

      Its not that hard to move from there to the realization that after the initial attempt to fire prosecutors from the DOJ, the Bush administration just might have stopped trying to discipline any of its prosecutors at all.

      In light of that, you can easily see how the prosecutors going after Stevens might have been emboldened to act in, shall we say, less than professional ways.

      And it appears that the judge in this case came to that conclusion...

    138. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the retirement package, and free health insurance (premium I might add) that we the tax payers have to pay for the bastard.

    139. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that the gimmick of asking for a bill just might provide a legal excuse for circumventing reporting the gift. If he did not suppose it to be a gift but simply a transaction not yet complete then why would he report it? I could see a conviction if the gift went unreported for several years and it was obvious that it was truly a gift.

    140. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      There also remains the possibility that the mechanism for being found not guilty was designed way in advance in such a way that his conviction would be certainly vacated. Lawyers can design interesting plots if the money is right.

    141. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      What would really be a shame is that O.J. might be totally innocent. Being a self made black man and having done every thing that society can ask of a man to reach the top and then being cast down as some sort of evil demon could be cruel beyond imagination.
                        I did notice that after his long jail stay while on trial that his mental state was altered. The shock of the situation may well have bent his mind. His current, Nevada conviction, was a travesty of justice. I hope he wins on appeal.

    142. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the 9/11 Commission was pretty clear in explaining that both BUsh and Clinton had their eyes open on the terrorists, but their intelligence sources were terrible at sharing data and resources, that's it. That was the cause, the miss of the hijackers, being unable to track between different CIA outposts. THey were bad at sharing data.

    143. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pcolaman · · Score: 1

      Or even more likely, not everyone in the Republican party is corrupt and would like to see people with taint on them just go away. Hard to believe, but statistically speaking it's highly likely. From what I can tell, the GOP has a youth movement of sorts going on and you can see it in shortening of support for older candidates (McCain was only supported by the majority when it was clear that he was going to win the nomination, when most of the party faithful were clearly behind Romney).

    144. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by pcolaman · · Score: 1

      You can see evidence of change by the fact that they shunned Sarah Palin from the GOP Fundraiser and instead invited Newt Gingrich. She got her one chance to help lead the party and blew it big time I think. Of course, unfortunately, she'll probably make noise again in the future, but hopefully, the party will be smart enough to look in a different direction.

    145. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow! Because political affiliation automatically means that's you lose all objectivity and are completely bias in all aspects of life!

      Well, the lefties around here seem to think this is true of conservatives and Republicans, so it's only fair that the same rules should apply the other way as well.

    146. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Macblaster · · Score: 1

      Actually, the [citation needed] was to the claim that the prosecutors on this case were holdovers from the Clinton administration. Even if Bush didn't completely clean house, he certainly had like-minded people to argue on his behalf in the DOJ. From the indictment and press release, you can see the prosecutors in the case were "Principal Deputy Chief Brenda K. Morris, Trial Attorneys Nicholas A. Marsh and Edward P. Sullivan of the Criminal Division's Public Integrity Section, headed by Chief William M. Welch II, and Assistant U.S. Attorneys Joseph W. Bottini and James A. Goeke from the District of Alaska". At least Brenda Morris is a holdover from Bush I. Since you love Google, I'll let you do the rest of the research yourself.

    147. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't invent the dead body, nor the history of violence, the plane ticket into town, the flight from police with a passport. This was jury nullification, plain and simple.

    148. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You seem to have forgotten the chief definition of "immigrant":

      Do you mean I should have used emigrant instead?

      The word "immigrant" normally connotes no legality of movement. It is only you (and a small group of people) who pretend that "immigrant" means "legal migrant" rather than "in-migrant" like it actually means to the largest portion of the English-speaking world.

      Ahh.. here is what your doing wrong. Your attempting to use an archaic definition that applies to the general geographical migration but doesn't suppose the legalities or restrictions to non citizens imposed by political entities. In other words, your failing to recognize the legal definitions and usages of the terms. We have went from "I hunt therefore I am" to systems where access is restricted to permission only through laws and procedures and when someone uses the term immigrant-emigrant and illegal alien, they are making legal references pertaining to the political jurisdiction in which they are discussing. If the political entity doesn't approve of you moving through or settling in the area under their control, you are an alien (outsider-noncitizen) who doesn't have the legal authority to be where they are, you are an "illegal alien".

      Now immigrants, or those who immigrate, who do seek political and legal authority to migrate and/or settle even if it is temporary, are just that, immigrants. They are aliens permitted to immigrate or emigrate, and therefor are referred to as such. There is no legal-migrant as you want to infer to our usage, there are just legally approved "immigrants" and outsiders (aliens) with or without legal authority (illegal aliens). As the term immigration is used in most countries, it applies to people who legally- hence with the approval of the controlling political entity- enter and reside within the country's borders for whatever reasons defined by law.

      But hay, you don't have to take my word for it, just look at how the common and legal interpretations majority of English speakers in the US use the terms. The legal definition of "alien" is any person not a citizen or national of the United States. Now if you read that last page, you will note that there can be legal aliens who are not immigrants and that immigrant is a term applied to specific aliens who meet specific legal definitions. The terms illegal (not in compliance with the law) and alien (non-citizen or non-national) are combined to denote someone who isn't legally entitled to be within the United States' borders and almost every country has laws to some extent that provide for the same.

    149. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      There was a supposed blood trail leading through the gate that wasn't there in which furman used as an excuse to enter the property without a warrant. A bloody glove found over a day later on a second trip to the property in a narrow passage between the house and a fence that wasn't used often and the blood on the glove was reported to have been wet when most accounts say the length of time should have dried it by then.

      There was something else that was highly suspect at the time. Something about a receipt for a knife matching the murder weapon dating back several years found in the garbage even though the supposed knife was a gift from someone else.

      Now all of that could have been real evidence but it sounds somewhat "manufactured" when viewed in the sequestered manner the jury was in.

    150. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Do you mean I should have used emigrant instead?

      "Emigrant" and "immigrant" are used like this:

      He immigrated to the US.
      He emigrated from the UK.

      I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that if you enter a country illegally, you are not an immigrant? Because dictionaries disagree.

    151. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that if you enter a country illegally, you are not an immigrant? Because dictionaries disagree.

      I know you don't understand what is being said. That is why I provided all the links and references to the legal terms. Illegal and legal are, well, legal references denoting noncompliance or not with the laws in a political entity. When referencing the terms, you need to consult the legal definitions not some other dictionary.

      Now, if you want to claim a disagreement, then by all means do so in the context of the usage. If we are talking about legal and illegal, then you must use the legal definitions which state that regardless of any other definition you might be able to find, anyone entering the US who isn't a citizen or patriot and who doesn't fit into a specific category defined by law is an "alien" and if they are not in the US legally, they are "illegal aliens" without regard to their intentions, any definition in any dictionary you find or anything but the actual law in force at the time.

      And yes, even if someone does fit within the actual OED or websters definition of immigrant, they can still be "illegal aliens". It is not in error to classify them as such because we are talking about legal rights and legal terminology not some arbitrary usage of a definition that applies to anthropology.

    152. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      But I get your grammar nit. Framing applies to someone innocent of the crime.

      Years ago I was pulled over for speeding. The cop called me an asshole twice, and wanted to teach me a lesson.

      He lied on the ticket. He said it was raining, and that there was heavy traffic. On that road, in heavy traffic I would not have been able to get around anyone and could not have been speeding; and, the ground was dry.

      He "won" in court, and I learned my lesson: Don't trust cops.

      Likely not the lesson he wanted me to learn, but I tend to learn the right ones.

      Anyway, I was "framed" in the sense that the cop felt the need to lie in order to obtain his conviction (which didn't happen anyway, this state has CWOF). But like the GP's grammar issue, I was actually "guilty" of speeding, and would have had the same outcome had the cop not lied. (Well, same except I wouldn't have learned quite the same lesson.)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    153. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      OT re: sig.

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

      Actually, "atheism" puts forth the proposition that there is no God, cannot be a God, never will be a God, etc. It is, quite accurately, "belief in the non-existence of God."

      Your quote would make more sense if you used "Agnosticism". Agnostics say "there may or may not be a God, what do I care?" This is more in line with "the stamps can collect themselves, I won't bother".

      Atheists are more about eradicating all stamps and making sure everyone knows how you feel about them. Keeping up the atheist mindset requires a lot more energy than keeping up the agnostic mindset, which is why many feel that atheists are cut from the same cloth as religious followers, just with a slight denial bent.

      You cannot petition the Lord with prayer.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    154. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by virg_mattes · · Score: 1

      The failure of your analysis comes from assuming that "philosophy" is a direct synonym to "religion". They are not the same, so saying that "belief in no God" is equal to religion isn't accurate.

      Atheism is a philosophy just like theism is a philosophy. In your parallel, atheists aren't about eradicating stamps, they're the ones who think that collecting stamps is a waste of effort.

      Virg

    155. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I understand now. When I read

      (that's why their called illegal aliens, not immigrants)

      I assumed, incorrectly, that you weren't limiting your usage to the language prosecutors use, but rather to the term as used by the population as a whole. Furthermore, I assumed you were decrying general usage of "immigrant" as a class that includes those who have entered a country illegally.

      Now I see that you were merely complaining about people speaking within a legal context and misusing the term. Although, to be honest, I've never met anyone in law school nor in DOJ offices (I have worked in one before) who erroneously used the term "immigrant" to describe those who entered the country illegally permanently.

      I've only heard non-attorneys make the mistake, but they don't speak from a legal standpoint.

      I hope this explains why I misunderstood your words.

    156. Re:Still Sounds Guilty to Me by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think we are on the same page now.

      And I understand why you went the path you did. It's a line that immigration advocates have been trying to blur for a while now so that when you are apposed to people illegally entering or staying in the country and don't give a rats ass about those who do it legally, you end up being a xenophobe, racist, or something and the person in the wrong gets reversed to you.

      But keep in mind, generally, when anyone makes a reference to the legality or illegal nature of something, they are talking about the law's interpretation of the situation. Granted, there will be people who will be wrong and there will be idiots who just don't know what they are talking about. I would hope I was clear enough in my presentation over it when I said "had to do with the prosecutor not prosecuting illegal aliens known to have broken the law (that's why their called illegal aliens, not immigrants)". But then again, with the blurring I mentioned earlier, I understand your reaction.

  2. Is He Guilty by socalmtb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What is annoying here is this doesn't mean he isn't guilty - it's just that the prosecutors really messed up.

    1. Re:Is He Guilty by tchdab1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Right - the prosecution is required by law to share all the evidence it has with the defense. It's called disclosure. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" for an explanation.
      Because the prosecution withheld evidence important from the defense, that is enough to throw out the charges. Doesn't matter if it's post-conviction.
      Legally Ted "inter-tubes" Stevens is no longer guilty, and he will shout that to the world from now on.

      And governor Palin cries for a re-election for Steven's former senate seat, to address the wrongdoing. I wonder if she also supports freeing Aymen Batarfi, a gitmo detainee from whose defense the government also withheld substantial evidence. Maybe she'll grant him asylum in Alaska.

    2. Re:Is He Guilty by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Au contraire! The exact opposite is true. Sen. Stevens is not (legally) guilty. What you meant to say is that "this doesn't mean he didn't do anything wrong." Our court system still stands on the belief of innocence until proven guilt. His guilt was not proven, so he is innocent.

      He might have done no wrong too; we don't know. We don't have all the facts and can't say for sure (or at least beyond reasonable doubt) that he is guilty so, according to our legal system, he is innocent

      I'm not defending Sen. Stevens but I am defending our legal system. For all its flaws (there are many), it is the best legal system in the world. Maybe that's not saying much but for the most part, it works.

    3. Re:Is He Guilty by bradgoodman · · Score: 5, Interesting
      No - Because the prosecution withheld evidence, that should be grounds for the defense to appeal for a new trial in which that evidence may be suppressed - or maybe not even suppressed, now that the defense does know about it.

      To set aside the whole verdict - man, that takes some real stones.

      It's also frustrating how little about the specifics that are even revealed in the press. There's got to be a much bigger story in all this.

    4. Re:Is He Guilty by huckamania · · Score: 1

      Just like all of these nominees that didn't pay their taxes, the real question is whether they did it intentionally or whether it was a simple mistake. From the withheld evidence, it appears to be the latter.

      He's a Republican. Which means it's okay to violate his rights to a fair trial. Just like all of the 'Hang Them' comments concerning Bush and Cheney.

    5. Re:Is He Guilty by zxnos · · Score: 1

      what is really annoying here is that there are people in the legal system who think they don't have to follow the rules. chilling.

      --
      always mosh clockwise
    6. Re:Is He Guilty by Abreu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's called disclosure. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" for an explanation.

      You don't need an excuse to watch that movie, it's great by itself!

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    7. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason it's set aside rather than just allowing a new trial is that the evidence is now so tainted a fair trial can't be administered. Without a fair trial there can be no trial.

    8. Re:Is He Guilty by corgan517 · · Score: 1

      Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" for an explanation.

      Posts like this make me wish /. had a +1 Pop Culture mod.

    9. Re:Is He Guilty by Nukenbar · · Score: 1

      I think you are getting it a bit wrong as well. When a jury comes back with a decision, a person is found guilty or not guilty. They are never fount innocent.

      There are plenty of people who are not innocent (i.e. they did the deed) but are found not guilty becauase their guilt was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence before them.

    10. Re:Is He Guilty by Perl-Pusher · · Score: 1

      I would agree with that except that the US tax system doesn't allow for innocent mistakes. My employer didn't take out enough taxes one year. I filed my taxes and had to ask to make payments. The interest and penalties that were charged on a simple mistake almost made me homeless. If the value of the home wasn't highly inflated just prior to the bubble bursting I would have been totally screwed. I was able to sell it at a profit enough to pay the taxes and get a new home. Timothy Geithner waited 2 years, yet only paid simple interest (much lower than the 20% I was charged not including the penalties!) with no penalties. So don't tell me that there isn't a double standard here. And my tax bill was 1/8 of what he owed.

    11. Re:Is He Guilty by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      It also appears from the judges remarks that there is more than a little withholding of evidence. The fact that Holder moved so quickly to drop the case tells me that he is trying to protect the prosecutors from further scrutiny, and possibly even criminal indictments.

      The level of immunity that prosecutors currently enjoy in our system is nothing short of a travesty. And it encourages them to actions that would land most people in jail. In this case it looks like they did something that would even expose a prosecutor to a criminal indictment - so it must be pretty bad.

      It's obvious that Holder is trying to protect those guys, and would prefer that the matter be drop while it's still Stevens that looks like the bad(er) guy.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    12. Re:Is He Guilty by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Our court system still stands on the belief of innocence until proven guilt.

      Yes.

      His guilt was not proven, so he is innocent.

      Now you lost me. So if I kill someone in cold blood. Take pictures of me doing it. Have video. Have 100,000 witnesses. And I get my trial thrown out on a technicality, does that mean I'm "innocent"? Hell no. I'd still be a murderer. Just not a convicted murdered. "Innocent" isn't even a legal term. that you use it like it is a finding of a court shows you have no idea what you are talking about. At best, a court can find you not guilty. And even that is just saying that they were unable to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what they find, not "innocent." Someone is either guilty or innocent based of fact. Either they did what they are accused of or they didn't. No court can ever change that. The court can only decide, based on information available, whether that can be proven. If they find the opposite of what really happened, that doesn't change reality. You can be innocent and be found guilty. It happens all the time. You can be guilty and be found not guilty. That happens all the time too. And the presumption of innocence has nothing to do with that.

      The presumption of innocence is a guideline for treatment during trial. Not before. Not after. Not outside the courtroom. Not in public opinion polls. Just for how the court should act after trial has already started until it is complete. Anyone that gives it any more weight than that has no idea what they are talking about.

      And if you are wondering why, think of it this way, if the cop presumed everyone innocent, then they'd never be allowed to arrest anyone, after all, you don't arrest people you believe to be innocent, that's unethical and illegal. And when setting bail, do the judges say "well, we think you are innocent, so we'll let you go on your own recognisance"? Hell no. They set bail on the presumption of guilt. It's just the treatment during trial and only during trial that's effected. They let you dress in a suit to look good, rather than dragging you in front of the jury in a jail suit, which would prejudice them against you. They force the burden of proof on the prosecution. They give you in-trial concessions only to help you mount an effective defense. It was never meant to be something that warped reality to force innocence upon those who are not. It was never meant to be something that alters my freedom of thought and speach (OJ is a murderer, even if he was found not guilty, and Stevens is a corrupt bastard, even if his conviction doesn't stick). It is a court guideline to be used in trial only for how to treat them during the trial, and nothing more.

    13. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I see... so the prosecution should feel free to withhold evidence arbitrarily, in hopes that the defense won't notice...? And if they do, they just get to start their case over from scratch at the taxpayers expense?

      Hate to say it--but if you architect a system prone to abuse--people will abuse it. If you want people to cooperate honestly--they need good incentives to do so. Punishment works just as well--the prosecution should know that if they cheat--they lose *everything*--that way the cost of misconduct is so high as to make it nearly inconceivable.

      I'll admit...I don't find it entirely implausible that the guy may have bribed the prosecution to carry out the case unprofessionally, and used that and double jeopardy as a get out of jail free card (a problem which should be fixed). But discounting that possibility--the system's worked as intended here for once. Innocent or Guilty--someone engaged in an abuse of power to get the guilty verdict--and that crime is so dangerous that they must be let free to set an example to all prosecutors never to engage in such misconduct.

      The abuse of power by the state in a prosecution is more dangerous than the abuse one individual (even representing the state) in any other manner. Quite simply--the verdict was not valid by any conceivable interpretation once it was demonstrated that the prosecution was willing and able to behave unethically, and even if it was valid...an example needs to be made whenever this occurs.

    14. Re:Is He Guilty by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      the prosecution should know that if they cheat--they lose *everything*--that way the cost of misconduct is so high as to make it nearly inconceivable.

      The cost of misconduct - to the individuals who did it - is nothing.

      an example needs to be made whenever this occurs.

      If you want to do that, a much better way would be to lock the prosecutors up.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They DID appeal, idiot. And won the appeal. How else would you order a new trial EXCEPT by setting aside the verdict? But given the tainted prosecution, and the fact their star witness perjured himself on the stand, the DOJ decided to not refile the case. But that was never their intent. Just like the "charges" against Tom Delay, they were never meant to actually be won at trial, but rather to remove a popular conservative voice from the the national stage, not by running against their actual record, but by manufacturing a fake record to run against. Stevens is out of the Senate, so no need to re-file.

    16. Re:Is He Guilty by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      How do you "taint" known facts, exactly? New jury, new trial, no problem.

    17. Re:Is He Guilty by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      And governor Palin cries for a re-election for Steven's former senate seat, to address the wrongdoing.

      Please stop degrading your office Gov Palin.

    18. Re:Is He Guilty by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      this is one of my big problems with the system. The investigation of the prosecutors should be done as part of the same case, not a new case. The case shouldn't be "closed" until all avenues of investigation are completed. This was discovered in court proceedings so it should stay "in play" until the judge makes a sentencing or dismissal ruling... the idea that the prosecutor can decide to pursue or not pursue the case against lawyers is wrong. The case is in court, all the same evidence submitted against the suspect is now turned on the bad lawyers.

      This change would allow judges to sentence BOTH parties breaking the law to jail. Particularly in the OJ case, he probably did do it, rather than let him off they should have locked up the detectives for making the case harder but not necessarily thrown out the whole case. Just keep throwing people from BOTH sides in jail until the matter is settled to the judges satisfaction.

    19. Re:Is He Guilty by andymadigan · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Best in the world? That's a pretty big statement, how is it better than Canada's, the UK's, Ireland's, France's or for that matter most if not all of the EU?

      They don't spend millions arguing about whether they should execute someone (they go for the cheaper route of locking them up for life), right there I'd say they have a leg up. Plus, for the most part they don't have to deal with two levels of jurisdiction (Fed. vs. State) which also reduces complexity and cost.

      Sorry, but I'm sick of Americans saying "we have the best X in the world", that kind of thinking eventually leads to "and we should impose it on everyone else through war".

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    20. Re:Is He Guilty by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Informative

      And again I feel compelled to mention that the President and AG during the this whole process were Republicans. Christ. This is the second brain dead: "The Dems trumped up charges to hurt a real conservative" post I've seen that totally ignores the fact that a Republican government did this. What did Obama go back in time and setup a "Shadow-DOJ" to do his bidding a year or more before his actual election?

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    21. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Maybe that's not saying much but for the most part, it works."

      It isn't.

      And it doesn't.

    22. Re:Is He Guilty by teknognome · · Score: 1

      Um, having a new trial required that the previous verdict be set aside. There could be a new trial in this case, but the prosecution isn't willing to bring charges again. They can't force there to be a new trial unless the prosecution is willing to press charges again.

    23. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, guilty. But, the real rub is that the legal system could railroad an innocent with these same tactics. Delays and political maneuvering like Annie Oakley got in her slander suit against William Randolph Hearst. Stevens is ending his career, but what if this pack of jackals had targeted an innocent novice? Ethics for the less well heeled only!

    24. Re:Is He Guilty by crono_deus · · Score: 1

      No - Because the prosecution withheld evidence, that should be grounds for the defense to appeal for a new trial in which that evidence may be suppressed

      No.

      No Double Jeopardy. It may be frustrating to see him go, but one can't be tried twice for the same crime, even in cases where the prosecution screwed up. He's been legally declared "Not Guilty," which is what his defense sought to prove (albeit he achieved such a ruling because the prosecution screwed up) so there's no need for his defense to ask for a new trial

      --
      Ne Cede Malis.
    25. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Ted Stevens was not proven guilty in a court of law and therefore we must, legally, presume his innocence.

      Cops presume you as a SUSPECT because they SUSPECT you committed a crime, if it is serious enough they may arrest you, etc, and then they must prove in court that you did commit that crime.

      You may call him a corrupt bastard because you BELIEVE he is guilty, but you haven't proven it, and if you go around saying he is guilty he can sue you for libel. And why the hell should we believe your opinion he's guilty, just because you saw some videos and read some news articles? Videos and photos can be doctored or misinterpreted, and the news is often misleading, incomplete or outright wrong. People interpret things differently, have political motivations, etc.

      This is the reason there is a court system... to protect suspects from the government and from the public.

    26. Re:Is He Guilty by Russ+Southern · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, my. How do you not understand just how critical presumed innocence is. Your examples miss the point entirely.

      Cops presume innocence until presented with probable cause. Without presumption of innocence, search and seizure would be effectively unlimited.

      Bail is set by judges after weighing the evidence presented preliminarily. Without presumption of innocence, why should there be bail at all?

      OJ may very well be a murderer, but he is innocent. Considering him--or any other person acquitted of a crime--to be "guilty" just because you think so, is a shameful miscarriage of justice, much less decency.

    27. Re:Is He Guilty by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      You've overstated your case. Personal opinions cannot be a "miscarriage of justice". Also, it's not indecent to hold an opinion contrary to the official position of the government, nor to state your opinions publicly.

      Your other points seem valid.

    28. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I feel compelled to mention, as others have, the actual prosecutors were lifelong Democrats.

    29. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The findings of a legal jury (if not a mistrial) are "guilty" or "not guilty."

      At best, a court can find you not guilty.
      For a defendant in the USA that's pretty damned good. Double jeopardy and all that.

      They [the courts] set bail on the presumption of guilt.
      No, they set bail based on the probability of the suspects likelihood to appear before the court and the perceived danger to themselves or others.

    30. Re:Is He Guilty by u38cg · · Score: 1

      I can't believe I'm defending the election of officials involved in the administration of justice, but given that whoever it is that screwed this up will be standing for re-election at some point - I'd say there definitely is a cost of misconduct.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    31. Re:Is He Guilty by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      given that whoever it is that screwed this up will be standing for re-election at some point

      So when the next Federal Prosecutor elections roll round it'll all be sorted? Can you tell me when that'll be?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    32. Re:Is He Guilty by GauteL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. You completely miss the point of the parent, which is not about the importance of presumed innocence, but that fact != assumption.

      "OJ may very well be a murderer, but he is innocent."

      You don't know that. As the parent says 'innocent' or 'guilty' are based on facts, not on conviction. If he is the murderer then by definition he is not innocent.

      We presume that a person is innocent until proven guilty, we don't know that a person is innocent. Otherwise there would be no point in a trial.

      When a person is found 'not guilty', we are saying that we can not find sufficient evidence that our presumption is wrong. Therefore the legal system will continue to assume that the person is innocent.

      But assumption/presumption != fact, and so it is perfectly reasonable to disagree with the findings of the court and people are entitled to their opinion on the matter.

      In the case of OJ, he lost his civil case because on the balance of probability, the evidence presented suggests he is guilty.

      Because our requirements are higher than 'balance of probability' in a criminal case, the legal assumption is still that he is innocent. This is as it should be, otherwise we would convict many, many innocent people.

      However, my personal opinion does not require any more than 'balance of probability' and I thus believe OJ is guilty. I may be correct or I may be wrong, we will never know for sure, and that is why OJ was still walking the streets after the case.

      You are unlikely to have enough information to say that he is innocent.

    33. Re:Is He Guilty by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      except you are incorrect he was convicted

      you should actually read what double jeopardy is before asserting that

      perhaps i should use caps and punctuation

      no

    34. Re:Is He Guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What would be better is if unethical behavior from the prosecution would put them in jail for an equal or greater time than the sentence the defendant was facing.

      Put a man in jail for life wrongly, spend the rest of yours behind bars.

  3. Intentional prosecutorial misconduct? by bersl2 · · Score: 1

    It wouldn't surprise me.

    (No I did not RTFA. How did you know?!)

  4. YRO? Seriously? by WED+Fan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is this YRO?

    Now, the process that have freed this sleeze-ball are also the processes that help in preventing the innocent from being railroaded. I'd rather free an occasional sleeze than see a lot of innocents convicted unjustly.

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Cube+Steak · · Score: 0

      Why is this YRO?

      Because kdawson is a moron? I'm also still trying to figure out what relevance this has to "news for nerds" other than the "series of tubes" link since this is about Ted Stevens.

    2. Re:YRO? Seriously? by palegray.net · · Score: 2

      The tubes are the only link. That said, the Slashdot community greatly enjoys poking fun at technically inept public officials who attempt to claim advanced knowledge of technical fields. Slashdotters also love jabbing at corrupt politicians, especially when said pols fit the first category as well. I enjoyed every bit of news on Stevens I could get.

    3. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Dynedain · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Because someone checked the YRO box when submitting and the editors didn't remove it.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    4. Re:YRO? Seriously? by TinBromide · · Score: 1

      Its a series of mistakes made by the prosecution!

      --
      Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
    5. Re:YRO? Seriously? by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      well, it was news (not for nerds) two weeks ago. This must be "stuff that matters (if you're Ted Stevens)" or perhaps "idle."

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    6. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why is this YRO?

      Because Stevens was represented by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_%26_Connolly, who are the firm in DC for this sort of thing. Even with the absolute best lawyers money can buy, the prosecution still stepped all over his basic right to a fair trial. That makes me wonder how the DOJ treats regular defendants that haven't retained the best law firm in the beltway.

      This is YRO (well, YR) because if the rich and powerful (and almost certainly corrupt, although it seems that he might not have been corrupt in the manner charged) cannot get a fair trial, then it's pretty damned clear than no one can.

    7. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the processes that help in preventing the innocent from being railroaded. I'd rather free an occasional sleeze than see a lot of innocents convicted unjustly.

      When did interference from the Bush administration ever help in preventing the innocent from being railroaded?

    8. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Duradin · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of the innocent don't have the connections or resources to get either the prosecution to throw the case or anyone to care about sloppy work on the prosecution's side.

      This isn't the process that keeps the innocent from being railroaded. This is the process that keeps the lawmakers from being subject to their own laws.

    9. Re:YRO? Seriously? by sjames · · Score: 1

      I think it's YRO since the odds are that however deserving, the rest of us are unlikely to be treated so well. Were it Jim Farmer, a random citizen from Kansas, the best he could hope for is a new trial if he could even get that far.

    10. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Caiwyn · · Score: 1

      The Slashdot community greatly enjoys poking fun at technically inept public officials who attempt to claim advanced knowledge of technical fields.

      I find it ironic that the Slashdot community makes fun of his "tubes" analogy, considering that every network technician I've ever known has, at some point in his or her life, used the word "pipe" to describe an internet connection.

    11. Re:YRO? Seriously? by hvatum · · Score: 0, Troll

      Seriously? It sounds to me like you are defending an obviously corrupt Republican.

      --
      Netbooks, they come with Linux or a $3 copy of Windows. Either way, Microsoft loses.
    12. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Well if you don't understand the difference between pipes and tubes, hand it in on the way out.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:YRO? Seriously? by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      I find it ironic that the Slashdot community makes fun of his "tubes" analogy, considering that every network technician I've ever known has, at some point in his or her life, used the word "pipe" to describe an internet connection.

      I just had a helldesk guy hanging out in my office complaining about one of the users. She was telling him how she had used a hard drive for a few years before getting a new one. Then she was moved to that one only to be told to use others. So now she uses multiple hard drives around various locations as she moves from office to office. She was asking if she could get a hard drive she could carry around with her. Turns out, she's referring to the entire computer as a "hard drive" and was actually wanting a laptop.

      Just because you use a term, doesn't mean you're getting it right.

    14. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Got to agree with the "Troll" mod. Trying to see where in his calling Stevens a "sleaze ball" he was defending him. Actually, he sounds like a flaming freakin' liberal with that stuff about how the system works to protect the little guy.

    15. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather free an occasional sleeze than see a lot of innocents convicted unjustly.
      Precisely what the framers of the Constitution intended.

    16. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Just because you use a term, doesn't mean you're getting it right.

      He understood the basic principles, though. Any network has limited capacity. It is ironic that he was mocked most for using a funny sounding phrase with the word "tubes" that captures the same meaning as the more common "pipes".

    17. Re:YRO? Seriously? by wlt · · Score: 1

      We're nerds. This is about the functioning of the justice system; law and order. In a society where there are no rules, the ones who will be getting oppressed and exploited are going to be us. The ones who'll be having the rules bent their way are going to be the thugs, not us. News about law and order and freedom, their functioning or lack thereof, is news for nerds.

    18. Re:YRO? Seriously? by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      He understood the basic principles, though. Any network has limited capacity. It is ironic that he was mocked most for using a funny sounding phrase with the word "tubes" that captures the same meaning as the more common "pipes".

      Count me as among those who mock him. The sound-bite makes it easy. But that's not why I mock him.

      Go ahead and find a transcript of the infamous speech. He's been coached. Or he's been given a presentation. But I hardly believe he understands what he's saying much less making a sane argument.

      Picking out an argument out of his speech is difficult as it requires no small number of assumptions and interpretations. But as near as I can tell, he blames a delayed email on digital movie distribution systems. He believes that there is a "personal Internet." And is shocked and abhorred that the Internet is being used for commercial purposes - suggesting said content delivery services should consider building their own Internet for those purposes. Thus, avoiding the cluttering of personal communications.

      The peppering of analogies like trucks and tubes simply demonstrate that someone has tried to explain to the Senator how these things work. I would even hazard to guess that a telecon lobby working against Net Neutrality had a nice presentations using them. However, the Steven's use of them are misplaced and almost entirely nonsensical in this speech. Add on to the fact that my best attempts to interpret what he's saying has issues, and it's easy to see why he is mocked.

      It should also be noted that this speech was against Net Neutrality. And now I'm sure you can see why the /. crowd takes so much pleasure in mocking this guy.

      As for the "basic principles," he doesn't even have that much going. He should be able to piece together a coherent analogy and he fails even that low a bar. But even worse is that he's supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable in this field as a chair for the committee that oversees the Government's involvement in it and an author of a bill that does just that.

      My example has someone that has the "basic principles" down as well. It's easy to see how the user could identify the entire computer as a "hard drive" even though that's not technically true. And for the most part, the terminology worked for her. However, she was ultimately wrong in what she was saying. And if it wasn't for the attention of the helpdesk folks working with her and realizing what she was saying just wasn't right, she would probably have ended up with an external hard drive rather than the laptop that she wanted.

      Sometimes those details are important. Even general ones.

    19. Re:YRO? Seriously? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Go ahead and find a transcript of the infamous speech.

      I just listened to the speech here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99PcP0aFNE

      He's been coached. Or he's been given a presentation.

      Of course, all senators are on all issues. Yes, it's unfortunate some of them only listen to paid lobbyists, and Stevens sounds like this kind of senator.

      But I hardly believe he understands what he's saying much less making a sane argument.

      First off, I acknowledge he's rambling and nearly incoherent, and is not familiar with the technology. However, I can look past that and get at what he's saying, and he clearly understands the basic principles, and the argument he makes is sane.

      He believes that there is a "personal Internet." And is shocked and abhorred that the Internet is being used for commercial purposes - suggesting said content delivery services should consider building their own Internet for those purposes. Thus, avoiding the cluttering of personal communications.

      I understood what he was saying. He's talking about how the Internet is based on a "network of networks". He does mention the word "local". What he's saying is that one company streaming video across the network impacts the whole network it runs across, not just the endpoints. This is the basic argument of net neutrality. Should individual networks be allowed to manage traffic that flows across their network or not? I'm not going to get into the debate, but I'm sure Stevens understood all that I've laid out.

      But even worse is that he's supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable in this field as a chair for the committee that oversees the Government's involvement in it and an author of a bill that does just that.

      I agree that somebody with a firm grasp on the technology should be in charge, and clearly he isn't it, but the tubes vs pipes thing tends to show the ignorance of those who laugh loudest at him for that particular analogy. I think Jon Stewart would probably fall into this camp, and probably quite a few ignorant Slashdotters (though definitely not you).

    20. Re:YRO? Seriously? by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      First off, I acknowledge he's rambling and nearly incoherent, and is not familiar with the technology. However, I can look past that and get at what he's saying, and he clearly understands the basic principles, and the argument he makes is sane.

      ...

      I understood what he was saying. He's talking about how the Internet is based on a "network of networks". He does mention the word "local". What he's saying is that one company streaming video across the network impacts the whole network it runs across, not just the endpoints. This is the basic argument of net neutrality. Should individual networks be allowed to manage traffic that flows across their network or not? I'm not going to get into the debate, but I'm sure Stevens understood all that I've laid out.

      The problem I see is that he's using lots of words and phrases that one would use to make proper analogies and describe how the tech works at a general level. But he's not putting them together in a way that makes sense. We're having to interpret what he's saying, using our existing knowledge as a guideline. In my experience, people who use technical jargon in this manner are trying to sound like they know what they're saying - but don't. This isn't him making a mistake on the finer points of how a protocol works. This is him not being able to describe a general concept clearly.

      I don't believe he understands the basic principles at all. I do believe he's working on legislation on someone else's behalf, attempting to use someone else's description as a reason why while not really understanding what he's doing beyond that it's what was asked for.

      I concur that ultimate point is over who affects what. But there's so much confusion and misinformation going on in that speech that it's hard to pick it out, much less find anything that would support it.

      The analogy fails in that the Internet isn't just a "series of tubes" but rather a mesh of tubes (or pipes). In those tubes are packets - chunks of the whole of whatever data is being sent through said tubes. It isn't a sequential system where one whole piece of data waits for another whole piece of data. And it is very unlikely Stevens' email was delayed for days due to someone's digital movie download.

      Other parts of that speech of note is the commercial use of the Internet - ongoing for years and largely credited with it's expansion and adoption. That this commercial use doesn't serve the consumer. That the commercial interests aren't paying for their bandwidth use. And the implication that the networks involved are incapable of handling this amount of use. There is a lot mixed in to that confusion if you want to spend time interpreting it.

      I agree that somebody with a firm grasp on the technology should be in charge, and clearly he isn't it, but the tubes vs pipes thing tends to show the ignorance of those who laugh loudest at him for that particular analogy. I think Jon Stewart would probably fall into this camp, and probably quite a few ignorant Slashdotters (though definitely not you).

      The "series of tubes" meme is a short summarization of the whole situation. The danger to this is that some individuals might might not understand this and just latch on the sound bite. I suppose you could be right that far.

      John Stewart's case may or may not be one of these. Stewart does make the point that Stevens should probably have a better grasp than he has shown (after a fair amount of shtick). And I suspect that's the reason the meme keeps surfacing on his show (you might even note some of these times also involve the Net Neutrality issue).

  5. This is bullshit by linzeal · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming. The practice of law used to require one book, when we found this nation maybe a 100 now there are 10's of thousands of books involving the law in various aspects and it has gotten to be too much. We need to reboot the justice department by rewriting the laws so they are prudent, consistent and concise.

    1. Re:This is bullshit by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. His reputation is shredded. He's 80+ years old. Seems like a fair trade to me.

      The 'mistakes' by the prosecutors were pretty egregious. Overturning the verdict is reasonable in this situation. As is not retrying him based on his age and being out of the Senate.

      It's not technically 'justice', but in the end it seems like a fair compromise.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    2. Re:This is bullshit by kalirion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

      How are you going to judge what is overwhelming and what isn't? It is far more in societies interest that prosecutors and cops start going by the book, even if it means some potentially guilty parties go free.

      The practice of law used to require one book, when we found this nation maybe a 100 now there are 10's of thousands of books involving the law in various aspects and it has gotten to be too much. We need to reboot the justice department by rewriting the laws so they are prudent, consistent and concise.

      I agree with you there. But if you RTFA you'll see that it wasn't a simple mistake of ignorance of some obscure passage in a book. These were basic rules that the prosecutors broke.

    3. Re:This is bullshit by stonecypher · · Score: 5, Informative

      The practice of law used to require one book, when we found this nation maybe a 100

      This is complete fiction. The Shakers took years to produce our legal system, and produced nearly a thousand books to describe it. At no point has the legal system you described existed in this nation.

      Stop making points by making up stories.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    4. Re:This is bullshit by Cube+Steak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

      Exactly. Due process has no place in getting in the way of a prosecutor winning a case by lying, manipulating evidence and harassing witnesses.

    5. Re:This is bullshit by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Informative

      This isn't some nit-picking technical error, though. One of the prosecution's main witnesses contradicted his trial testimony in a recorded interview, which the prosecution deliberately withheld from the defense.

      Stevens is almost certainly still guilty, but I don't think you can now say that he was convicted at a fair trial, which is why if the DOJ still wished to convict him, they would have to move for a retrial.

    6. Re:This is bullshit by CorporateSuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      disagree. His reputation is shredded. He's 80+ years old. Seems like a fair trade to me.

      The 'mistakes' by the prosecutors were pretty egregious. Overturning the verdict is reasonable in this situation. As is not retrying him based on his age and being out of the Senate.

      It's not technically 'justice', but in the end it seems like a fair compromise

      He's 80 years old, was extremely powerful a year ago, glaringly corrupt, and the GOP is trying to get him reinstated. Political corruption charges are perhaps the most dangerous type of charges to throw out on technicalities. The fact that one man (the judge) can overturn the jury of his peers on the basis that the lawyers who got him convicted did it wrong is proof that it takes only 2 corrupt men in a room full of people to get away with anything (and I'm sure your imagination has not yet stretched around what the word anything encompasses when it comes to corrupt men in federal power). If the people who paid Stevens money pay the judge or the prosecution enough money to "screw a few things up" then no politician can ever be imprisoned for corruption charges as long as that dynasty stands. This is the type of thing that will affect you extremely negatively in the near future. Perhaps you should bother yourself with looking past a man's age before letting a corrupt potentate return to power.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    7. Re:This is bullshit by pigeon768 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

      Procedural mistakes should absolutely overturn convictions, overwhelming or otherwise.

      As it is now, when the police are investigating a crime, or a prosecutor is building a case, they have the capability, legal or usually otherwise, to build a "overwhelming" case against someone who is completely and totally innocent of the specific crime. The reason they don't is partially ideological, but mostly because they know the case would be overturned on appeal, if the first judge even let the evidence be introduced. This is the reason we don't have prisons (gitmo aside) full of people innocent of the specific crime they were convicted for but aren't terribly well liked by the police and DA's office.

      Once the court system starts saying, "Well, this guy may or may not be innocent, but he sure does deserve to be in prison," we're all screwed. Initially, only about half of us are screwed, (the people who voted for the other guy) but eventually we all will be.

    8. Re:This is bullshit by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Overturning the verdict is reasonable in this situation.

      Agreed.

      As is not retrying him based on his age and being out of the Senate.

      Now this, I can't agree on. People deserve an opportunity to clear their name through a re-trial, no matter what the age or circumstances. And the public deserves to see that Justitia really is blind, and don't let who you are and what you do (or no longer do) give you advantages over the next man.

      I think the only reasonable is that when a case gets overturned, a mandatory retrial takes place. As long as there is an opportunity, however small or convoluted, for people to cheat the system by having a case thrown out, that loophole will be exploited. By those with the power to exploit it.

    9. Re:This is bullshit by IronChef · · Score: 1

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

      You may as well say that procedural requirements should not interfere with the business of national security.

      Procedures and the laws that enforce them are what make our pretty decent free society possible. Sometimes a procedural error results in a dismissal, and justice is not done. It sucks, but IMHO that is an unavoidable side effect of building a system that protects the innocent.

      The alternative is a system where procedures are ignored when it is convenient, which has got to be worse.

    10. Re:This is bullshit by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 1

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

      Actually procedural mistakes should overturn convictions. Procedures are there to protect the innocent. Also, this one procedure in particular is there to balance the fact finding power of the state (basically unlimited) against that of a defendant.

      "I will let 10 guilty people go free in order to prevent 1 innocent person from being convicted."

    11. Re:This is bullshit by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Stevens wasn't the only target, just the highest profile. The case against others is ongoing and has resulted in 10 convictions to-date.

      So yes, while dropping charges when dealing with corruption can be bad in many ways, if the person involved is no longer in the position of power to be corrupted and is seriously unlikely to do it again (being old AND out of power) well, I think its enough.

      I have thought about his return to power. There is no way he returns to the Senate. He'd be at least 91 in the next election, running against an incumbent, and dealing with answering these questions all over again.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    12. Re:This is bullshit by kenp2002 · · Score: 1

      Cheers and don't forget to mention then thousands and thousands of pages worth of court ruling, common law, we inherited. We still from time to time cite case law\common law from Britian as the need arises... Law like life just keeps rolling along, each generation larger then the generation before...

      --
      -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
    13. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the procedural misconduct by the proscecution hid evidence that could have been used by the defence to impeach the proscecution witness. In other words the proscecution hid information that suggests the star witness lied on the stand.

      I don't think this is B.S. This is a fundamental tennant of US justice. If a proscecutor has information that may show the defendenant might be innocent he must give it to the defense. It is aginst the law not to, just like taking bribes is against the law.

      What is worse, the the proscecution's misconduct affected an election. How many people would have voted for Stevens if he had been found not guilty. If the defense had had the information, he might not have been convicted and might have won the election.

    14. Re:This is bullshit by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      People deserve an opportunity to clear their name through a re-trial

      He's claimed the dropping of the charges *has* cleared his name. I'd bet you'd find him suspiciously UNWILLINGLY to go through the trial again and possibly lose...again.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    15. Re:This is bullshit by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      You might be right that the law has become too complex, but the defense having a right to see ALL evidence and interview all witnesses that are brought to the attention of the prosecution is hardly new or complex. Lawyers don't get to hide evidence just because it doesn't suit their case, and I'd call that considerably more than a procedural mistake--they violated this man's fifth and sixth amendment Constitutional rights.

      Personally I'd start hearings to sanction or disbar these prosecutors. If there's even a whiff that this was intentional rather than an outrageously huge oversight, they should lose the ability to practice criminal law. Period.

      The process matters much more than the outcome.

    16. Re:This is bullshit by bannerman · · Score: 1

      Who are you trying to kid? The man is a corrupt politician who was taking kickbacks. He should do hard time in a PMITA prison. It isn't like we're charging him for something he did in his younger, more reckless days. He knew what he was risking, and now he should get what he deserves. Corruption can not be tolerated. Make an example of him. He is in office and we should hold him to a higher standard if anything.

      --
      I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
    17. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The practice of law used to require one book

      I have a hard time believing that anyone thinks being ruled by the bible is a good thing.

    18. Re:This is bullshit by CraftyJack · · Score: 1

      How are you going to judge what is overwhelming and what isn't?

      Easy. We dunked her and she floats - proof positive of witchery.

    19. Re:This is bullshit by bannerman · · Score: 1

      Was. Was in office.

      --
      I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
    20. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Procedural mistake? Do you even know what they did? Their star witness, the only one who testified that Stevens had, through a third party, asked that he not be billed.

      He testified to this, despite the fact that Stevens wrote him a letter explicitly asking for a bill to be sent, and despite the fact that his initial statement explicitly said that nobody spoke to him on Stevens' behalf to not send a bill.

      So if suborning perjury is your idea of a "procedural" mistake, then you fit right in with your fellow brown-shirts.

    21. Re:This is bullshit by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is a fundamental tennant of US justice.

      You're saying the law can't be bought but it can be rented?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:This is bullshit by Courageous · · Score: 1

      You really do not want to live under the rule of law where the media-ensorcelled prosecutors get rewards and fame for dolling out damage to those they believe are guilty, without regards for the ethics of doing it right. Trust me on this, you really don't.

      The principal that you're objecting to is called "fruit of a poisoned tree". The current theory is that if the government prosecution engages in inappropriate and/or illegal behavior towards the accused, there is no chance of the accused getting a fair trial at all. The evidence itself is considered tainted, a new trial: pointless.

      C//

    23. Re:This is bullshit by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      election doesn't matter, that's just a career choice. Lots of innocent people get accused of crimes and go thru the whole process, losing their profession and contacts, public standing, house, spouse, children and end up bankrupt and suicidal even though they got found clearly not guilty, and maybe even the prosecution gets a nasty letter on their "permanent record" and sometimes even have to say "sorry". The state doesn't typically worry about fixing those things for anybody else.. it's just a "cost of exercising your rights".

      For middle class folk, the public accusation and costs of going to court ARE the punishment... look how the *AA handle things.

    24. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, I'm part of the GOP and I've seen no one trying to get this old fart reinstated. Most of us are glad he's gone. Maybe some of his buddies want him back in the Senate, but a lot of us are glad his senile idiot self is gone.

      Ted Stevens is one of the major arguments for Senatorial term limits -- others being Robert Byrd, Strom Thurmond, and Ted Kennedy (yeah, I said it).

    25. Re:This is bullshit by physicsphairy · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fact that one man (the judge) can overturn the jury of his peers on the basis that the lawyers who got him convicted did it wrong is proof that it takes only 2 corrupt men in a room full of people to get away with anything

      *Betting on being able to do that is a fairly absurd idea seeing as how you don't know beforehand who will comprise the judge and prosecution. If your assumption is just that everyone everywhere is bribable, well, in that case we're already screwed, and I think bribing six jurors would be easier and cheaper anyway.
      *Unless the system is already rife with corruption, I don't think you're quite considering how dangerous it is to approach said persons with the prospect of a bribe. Most likely, you would just wind up sealing your fate.
      *You forget that any decision a judge makes can be reviewed by other judges.
      *You forget that a corrupt senator may also be impeached by congress. (and if you think parties will stick up for their friends when they're tainted by public ire, see how many friends Gov. Blagojevich has)
      *You'll note that despite being reprieved, Ted Stevens was cost the election. In a democracy, gaming the system may keep you out of the pen, but merely being brought into court can see to the end of your political significance.

      I am all for punishing the guilty, but I don't think the expressed paranoia quite justifies abridging our present safeguards against malicious court proceedings. And it isn't as if having courts rigged more toward the prosecution couldn't also be used as a means of protecting (or exerting) high-level corruption.

    26. Re:This is bullshit by konigstein · · Score: 1

      If you think the detainee's at GITMO are all actually innocent people (NOT people who proclaim their own innocence!) then you deserve the lot of them to be shipped to your front door and dropped off. Their files are full of sometimes pictures or eyewitness accounts placing them at the scenes of shooting, IEDing, or RPGing us or allied troops. A lot of them are also financiers. Also, a lot of them we can't send anywhere because right after our planes dropped them off, those "innocent" people would have bullets through the backs of their heads. There is no easy, simple solution to GITMO. They have to go somewhere, and I sure as hell don't want them in my backyard.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    27. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions...
      I'm glad you are not running the judicial system. A procedural mistake does NOT prevent the retrying of a suspect.

      ...that are this overwhelming.
      Were you on the jury? Did you sit in the court? Did you review ALL of the evidence INCLUDING that which was withheld from the defense?

      I submit that the excrement lies closer to you than the court that tossed out this conviction.

    28. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think 600+ years of English common law could have fit into 1 book in 1776.

    29. Re:This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point. Regardless of whether you think it's right or not, the majority at gitmo have not gone through due process. That was his point. Not their actual innocence or guilt. Technically, without due process, their guilty status is undetermined, and if US law is applicable to them (obviously the subject of furious debate) then they would be presumed innocent until proven otherwise, and thus their current legal status would be "innocent" (regardless of whether they had actually been killing people or whatever).

    30. Re:This is bullshit by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1
      I think bribing six jurors would be easier and cheaper anyway.

      That doesn't make any sense.

      On one hand:
      1. You've got SIX people any of whom could blow the whistle and corroborate each other's stories.
      2. These people will be actually asked to justify their positions.
      3. A hung jury does not prevent a retrial
      4. The jurors are most likely not members of any gov't branch
      5. Sitting on a jury is a temporary position

      On the other hand:

      1. One person can be approached in a single person-to-person discussion. It will be person A's word against person B's.
      2. A procedural error is just that an error. You don't have to explain why you chose to make it because it is an "accident"
      3. A re-trial has been blocked
      4. The prosecutor receives a paycheck from the gov't. Even if he doesn't know the guy he's prosecuting, his boss' cousin's husband probably does.
      5. The prosecutor does have a full-time job to worry about. He does not want to hurt his career by pissing off the people who will be making decisions about it.

      I don't think you're quite considering how dangerous it is to approach said persons with the prospect of a bribe. Most likely, you would just wind up sealing your fate.

      I don't think you're giving this guy enough credit. He's a Senator. He's "got people". He's not going to send you a signed and dated letter offering you a bribe.
      Assume you're immoral, rich and politically well connected:
      You will have a third party contact the individual in a face to face meeting. The subject of the meeting will not be discussed in advance to reduce the possiblility of recordings. An offer will be made guaranteeing something like:

      • Minimal repercussions for the error
      • A seat on the board of some corporation 8 years down the road, with a ridiculous salary to match

      Direct communication will never be made again. Make the error in the prescribed way and 8 years from now a stranger will suggest that they try to get a seat on the board of a certain corporation. To prove they are on the level a set of recognition symbols will be provided that will be displayed by both the person who will be responsible for assigning the repercussions of the error and an officer of the company that will be hiring. This will be something inocuous, unlikely and recognizable, like coughing exactly three times at the start of their next public appearence. A story might also be provided with a few plausible details of a previous "gentleman's agreement".

      So at this point, what evidence do you have that someone just tried to bribe you?


      In a democracy, gaming the system may keep you out of the pen, but merely being brought into court can see to the end of your political significance.

      I doubt there's any shortage of people ready to trade their "politcal significance" for a bank account with six or more zeros at the end of it.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    31. Re:This is bullshit by dbIII · · Score: 1
      The people you are talking about could have been locked up using due process. If you refer to the items in the media you will find out that there are a lot of people in there that were just picked up in a bunch on suspicion in the hope that one of them would be guilty.

      Also remember that the prize show trial prisoners were the Australian guy that swapped his gun for a taxi ride out of there at the first sign of trouble and a guys whose crime was to drive others around. GITMO is a shining example of how NOT to do things if you want ot maintain some sort of international reputation as a fair dealer. China could get away with it because everyone expects China to lock people up at a whim and torture them - the USA couldn't without sacrificing credibility.

    32. Re:This is bullshit by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Hello, my name is King John. I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    33. Re:This is bullshit by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      The evidence itself is considered tainted, a new trial: pointless.

      Not necessarily. If the prosecution has solid, untainted evidence upon which a case can be built then there is a point. Otherwise the defendant is, by definition, innocent.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    34. Re:This is bullshit by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Somehow I doubt that if this were an ordinary person and not a former senator on trial the justice department wouldn't settle for a tarnished reputation and old age. A very large percentage of Congress is fairly elderly - if we don't punish corruption in elderly Senators then we might as well just have them start taking bribes in full view inside the Senate hall.

      The punishment for a crime cannot be merely to stop the crime - it must be very undesirable. Otherwise, there is no incentive for people not to commit crimes in the first place.

      If I rob a bank and I am caught, and the sentence is that I need to return the money - then I'm out nothing in net and I might as well try again. Very little downside, very big upside.

      Corruption is deadly to a democratic government - it should be punished very harshly. These Congressmen are paid very handsomely, and they have very little in the way of job requirements beyond just showing up (yes, I realize that most members of Congress do more than just show up - but the stress level has to be lower than most corporate jobs that pay these kinds of salaries). To expect them to actually represent their constituents and not take bribes isn't asking a whole lot.

      Political corruption is a betrayal of democracy - it should be punished as such. I have no problem with putting these people behind bars for decades right next to crack dealers, murders, and others who receive these kinds of sentences. They should lose their pensions, and pay stiff fines as well (certainly if I clearly accepted bribes to the detriment of my employer they would consider termination for cause and revoking my pension).

    35. Re:This is bullshit by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Evidently at least one of them is... http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20833.html

    36. Re:This is bullshit by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      There is no easy, simple solution to GITMO.
      mmm, even if someone was innocent and upstanding going in I certainly wouldn't trust them to remain so once they come out after what the US has put them through.

      I see a few potential ways to close up gitmo, none good.

      1: send the people to the US for trial
      2: send the people to the countries they came from for trial
      3: keep the people there until they die naturally
      4: stage an accident that kills all the prisoners in the facility
      5: pull out of gitmo, leave the prisoners behind and let the cubans sort it out.

      1 and 2 have the risk of letting very dangerous people go loose because the evidence is in too fucked up a state to get a conviction. 3, 4 and 5 have obvious human rights issues.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    37. Re:This is bullshit by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      As long as there is an opportunity, however small or convoluted, for people to cheat the system by having a case thrown out, that loophole will be exploited. By those with the power to exploit it.

      You did get the fact that the verdict was thrown out (and Stevens' name cleared) due to the (mis)behavior of the prosecution, right?

      The prosecution had the power to have their own goddamn case thrown out. If you worry about such loopholes, here's a killer one that can get any case thrown out of court: "prosecution dismisses all charges".

      If retrials are not even enforced but just allowed, what prosecution wouldn't withhold evidence from the defense knowing that the worst case scenario is "oops, okay, now you get to see the evidence, let's go back to square one and try again"?

      Allowing retrials with no punishment to the prosecution means you let them get away with attempting end-runs around the rules of process.

      I'm not particularly in favor of letting crooks off the hook, but crooks can wear either jail stripes or pin stripes.

    38. Re:This is bullshit by srvivn21 · · Score: 1

      Once the court system starts saying, "Well, this guy may or may not be innocent, but he sure does deserve to be in prison," we're all screwed. Initially, only about half of us are screwed, (the people who voted for the other guy) but eventually we all will be.

      Actually if voting for the other guy is what it takes to be put in the "screwed" category, less than a quarter of us will be screwed, since fewer than half choose to vote.

  6. Hmmm.... by brian0918 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think there should be a problem with what Stevens did. If the government were prohibited from interfering in the economy, there wouldn't be any incentive for a oil company to renovate a politician's house, of all things.

    In such situations, all I have to ask is, "where does the actual use of force come into play?" Answer that, and you'll know who is responsible for the violation of rights. In this case, as in the rest, the force - through selective laws that hinder competition and benefit a select few - is supplied by politicians.

    1. Re:Hmmm.... by Fallingcow · · Score: 2, Funny

      If the government were prohibited from interfering in the economy, there wouldn't be any incentive for a oil company to renovate a politician's house, of all things.

      Kind of like cutting off your arm to get rid of a hangnail, eh?

    2. Re:Hmmm.... by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      more like removing a tumor to get rid of the cancer.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    3. Re:Hmmm.... by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      Kind of like cutting off your arm to get rid of a hangnail, eh?

      A better analogy would be cutting off the ropes that bind your arms.

    4. Re:Hmmm.... by smellsofbikes · · Score: 2, Informative

      >If the government were prohibited from interfering in the economy, there wouldn't be any incentive for a oil company to renovate a politician's house

      While that's a nice thought, I challenge you to figure out how it would be implemented.
      If we force the federal government to do nothing other than exactly what the Constitution lets it, in the most conservative sense -- maintain armed forces for the defense of the land, regulate *actual* interstate commerce, which is to say only settling disputes between states and handling state-foreign state disputes -- the federal government would *still* interfere in the economy because it would be taking money out to pay for what it's doing, and it would be pumping money into some areas in pursuit of its duties. Both would be areas for corruption to thrive, just as corruption thrives now.
      If you rewrote the Constitution such that the federal government had zero funds and zero influence, if you essentially canceled it, then the individual states would provide similar functions and be just as full of corruption. If you get rid of them, then individual cities would do the same, and eventually down to homeowners' associations, I suppose. I read about graft and corruption involving parent-teacher association funding.
      *Any* form of government will interfere in economies. That's their reason for existence, is to interfere with economy on the behalf of the people who make the economy run and benefit from its productivity.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    5. Re:Hmmm.... by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      How would you implement that? As long as government has any task to fulfill at all, they'll have to get money for it (i.e. some form of tax) and they'll have to spend some money on doing it. If you have tax, then you have an incentive to bribe politicians in order to help you evade taxes. If you have spending, then you have an incentive to bribe politicians in order to direct that spending your way. Be it policemen's uniforms, guns for the army, or even fuel for the tanks. Even if that wasn't the case there'd still be incentive to bribe politicians e.g. to have changes in corporate law, contractual law or tax law. The only way you have no opportunity for corruption in government, is to have no government. Of course whoever would take over the tasks government is handling now would then be a target for bribes, too. Companies have a lot of problems with corruption, too.

    6. Re:Hmmm.... by hacksoncode · · Score: 1

      If this is supposed to pass for a libertarian argument, don't forget that little issue of *fraud*. The use of force isn't the only evil, even for (most) libertarians. He submitted a document that failed to disclose a (bribe)contribution, which is in the class of things it claimed to disclose.

    7. Re:Hmmm.... by Moridin42 · · Score: 1

      If the government were prohibited from interfering in the economy

      ... you wouldn't have a government. You wouldn't be able to institute any tax at all, anywhere. Interference and all that. Without tax revenues, the government would have to run on fees for services rendered. Which would make the government, effectively, a very large, publicly owned corporation. One which faces all the usual market issues, or one that is a protected monopoly. In the first case, you gain nothing by having government. In the second, you interfere in the economy.

      Ideology is a nice guide for where you'd like to end up. It isn't a terribly good blueprint for getting there, though.

      --
      I don't expect morality, equality, consistency, or justice from the law. I expect only legality.
  7. Lets be clear by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    None of the things Steven's was accused of receiving illegally were false. Just the amount of value in them.

    So a $250,000 felon, or a $80,000 felon..either way he still should be a felon by any reasonable definition.

    I'll say that the decision to not retry him is reasonable given his age. His record is, ahem, clean, but his tattered reputation is frankly, well deserved.

    --
    People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    1. Re:Lets be clear by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      If they hadn't (illegally) withheld the video, it's possible the contradiction might've helped get an acquittal though, depending on how strong the other evidence was and who was on the jury. It's true that $80k is still illegal, but confronted by multiple inconsistencies in the witness's testimony, the defense might be able to get the testimony thrown out entirely, or at least bring up doubts about the witness's credibility.

    2. Re:Lets be clear by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed, he might have gotten an acquittal, but given his own statements saying "asking for this receipt is just to cover our asses" he might not ;-)

      in the end I think the result is good enough, he's ruined politically, out of power, and not really worth retrying.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    3. Re:Lets be clear by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I'll say that the decision to not retry him is reasonable given his age.

      I keep hearing this, but I don't see how this can be true in any way, shape, or form. Letting political corruption go unpunished is an extremely dangerous precedent to set, especially on account of age. Exactly how many congressmen well-established enough to be able to wield this kind of corruption would we be able to try? This is essentially a green-light for corruption, as long as you can get away with it long enough.

      Besides, who cares if he doesn't get to serve much time before he dies? Just like the powers-that-be are always punishing us little people to set an example for others, he should be an example that corruption is not to be tolerated.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    4. Re:Lets be clear by Cornelius+the+Great · · Score: 1

      His record is, ahem, clean, but his tattered reputation is frankly, well deserved.

      This is Alaska. Palin and friends are trying to get him reinstated as a US Senator- and it's very likely that given the chance, they'll vote him back in.

      This kind of bullshit caused me to abandon the GOP. I was hoping that losing Congress and the White House would force them to reconcile a bit. Oh well...

      --
      Sigs are for losers
    5. Re:Lets be clear by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      I'd say losing your congressional seat is a pretty good warning to the rest of Congress that people aren't going to take it anymore.

      Even from Ted Stevens in Alaska.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  8. Evidence against Stevens was overwhelming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Apparently, prosecutors illegally withheld evidence from the defense that was contradictory to their case.

    Perhaps if Stevens was given a fair trial, the jury may have seen things differently.

    1. Re:Evidence against Stevens was overwhelming by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, that's the thing, we can speculate, but he was ultimately robbed of his chance to prove his case in court. In cases like this the reputation is indelibly smudge with no real recourse.

      Admittedly though, as bad as that is, it beats the other system where prosecutors just try again and again until they get the verdict they want.

  9. botched prosecution, does not mean not guilty by Dan667 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    From everything published about this and "tube" Stevens conduct looks like he is guilty. This may even have been botched on purpose as these prosecutors are from Bush appointees.

    1. Re:botched prosecution, does not mean not guilty by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      botched prosecution, does not mean not guilty

      WRONG!

      How hard is it to get this? People are innocent until proven guilty. In this case the prosecution played fast and loose with the rules, thus rendering the "proof" moot. As a result, we go back to square 1. Just because he's a scumbag doesn't change that.

      Now if only we could get the bloody media to understand the basic foundations of civilization.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  10. Not surprising by mdf356 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My father-in-law faced one of the prosecutors in a tax case once. She pulled a lot of the same crap then, harassing witnesses, changing the story she was trying to prosecute, etc.

    This is almost certainly like O.J. Simpson, where a guilty man was framed.

    --
    Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    1. Re:Not surprising by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Next question: was it deliberate? Was the misconduct deliberately carried out at the behest of Republican appointees in the DOJ to ensure that Stevens would not serve time?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    2. Re:Not surprising by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 0

      This is almost certainly like O.J. Simpson, where a guilty man was framed.

      OJ might be a murderer, but I don't remember him framing anyone.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    3. Re:Not surprising by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is almost certainly like O.J. Simpson, where a guilty man was framed.

      That's not my recollection at all. My recollection was the police work was sloppy. A detective apparently lied about using a racial epithet. What I do remember is the defense insinuated that the police was out to frame O.J. when it was more likely the case was that the police and the prosecution made major mistakes. The defendant had a high dollar legal team that was able to use these mistakes.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    4. Re:Not surprising by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      "A guilty man was framed", not "a guilty man framed [someone else]".

      As in, O.J. was guilty*, but the prosecution essentially tried to frame him (for the very crime he was guilty of) with false evidence.

      * Forgive my lack of caveats. My journalistic manners are not as strong as my belief that the man is in fact a murderer who walked because the prosecution couldn't make their case on the up-and-up.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    5. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is almost certainly like O.J. Simpson, where a guilty man was framed.

      OJ might be a murderer, but I don't remember him framing anyone.

      That's not what the GP meant. He meant that OJ was guilty, but the prosecution and police manufactured evidence or bent the truth in order to attempt to guarantee a conviction.

      So, a guilty man was framed - OJ Simpson was framed by the state.

    6. Re:Not surprising by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Wow. Great sarcasm detector you have there. I'd love one just like it!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Not surprising by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Thanks, Capt. Obvious.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    8. Re:Not surprising by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      When what is said doesn't make any sense at all taken sarcastically or not, it messes up the detector.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    9. Re:Not surprising by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Don't rely on your "recollection," rely on the evidence. My favorite factoid; LAPD took a blood sample from OJ for DNA testing then walked it over to the crime scene to give to a cop. When, the cop checked it back into evidence, some of the blood was missing.

      Don't get me wrong, I think OJ did it. But, I also think LAPD got caught "helping out" their case. As the GP beautifully said, "a guilty man was framed."

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    10. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks, Capt. Obvious.

      You're welcome.

    11. Re:Not surprising by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      And yet everyone else understood the nonesensical post, and the "intentional" misunderstanding of it. Did you get the optional common sense module?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Not surprising by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Hognoxious is right on this one. The implication was that I didn't think OJ was framed, so surely the poster was referring to OJ framing someone else.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    13. Re:Not surprising by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      But the guilty person and the one who were framed were the same, and you suggested you thought OJ was guilty, which is why it doesn't make any sense. But really, whoosh, right? I sure missed that one; i should have been like ROFLMAO.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    14. Re:Not surprising by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Again, I don't think OJ was framed. Yes, you should be laughing hysterically. :-)

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  11. Proof justice system is a fraud by zymano · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Mr. Stevens is a criminal. The system encourages his behavior. All Congressmen take bribes. You can't get elected if you don't.

  12. Lying, on the other hand... by brian0918 · · Score: 1

    Now lying, on the other hand, is contemptible, and if the charge is true, Stevens should be held to account.

  13. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by religious+freak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After hearing and reading a bit about the actions of the prosecution, I unfortunately agree with this decision. The actions they took were so egregious that they should not be allowed to proceed.

    Now... whether the charges on Stevens should've been permanently thrown out forever, I don't know - that seems a bit much. But you can't consistently withhold evidence from the defense and expect your case to be supported by an impartial judge.

    Stevens is almost certainly guilty, from everything I've seen and read, but that doesn't mean he's not entitled to a fair trial.

    --
    If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    1. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by RingDev · · Score: 1

      At this point, he's old, out of power, and largely disposed. As a civilian he can do no more damage. So is it worth it to the feds to pay for a second round of trials and go over the whole case just to prove a point?

      That said, I would be interested in seeing an impartial 3rd party investigate the prosecution's team and see what the hell lead a group of professional law experts to botch things up so horribly. Hopefully it was just malice, but if there was even a hint of cronyism, some heads will need to role.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    2. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>So is it worth it to the feds to pay for a second round of trials and go over the whole case just to prove a point?

      It absolutely is. If a second trial doesn't start, it's a direct message to the citizenry that people in power are not subject to the same laws as the rest of us and that is not how America should be.

    3. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by religious+freak · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. Just like everyone else, I would like to see justice be served, but does it really matter? Probably not, IMO.

      I watched something about this on the Newshour with Jim Lehrer (one of the only true news shows in existence, IMO) and they said the Attorney General was very much contemplating an investigation... as it should be.

      I used to think it was a critic labeled by the cynics among society, but I really do think damn near every politician is corrupt... it really is disheartening.

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    4. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by deraj123 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or, it's a direct message to the citizenry that misconduct by government agents will not be tolerated. If the prosecution is simply allowed to "try again", there is no incentive to behave appropriately in the future. Place the full blame for the lack of justice on the heads of the prosecutors and the justice department. They are the ones who did us wrong.

    5. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by RingDev · · Score: 1

      Either way it is.

      Re-try him, and it is as you described, the prosecution has little to gain by behaving as they can always take another bite at the apple.

      Don't re-try him, and it sends a direct message to the citizenry that corruption and bribes are acceptable.

      The only moral high ground to take would be to re-try Stevens with a fresh team of lawyers AND investigate/prosecute the members of the prosecution that acted inappropriately.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    6. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If the prosecution is simply allowed to "try again", there is no incentive to behave appropriately in the future.

      That's assuming they actually wanted a conviction. But if they get to keep their cushy jobs and stay out of PMITA, I don't see how freeing the criminal^H^H^H defendant punishes the prosecution (as individuals) one little bit. If it punishes anyone, it's J. Edgar Taxpayer.

      This isn't football where you get two opposing fouls and you offset them. Both sides can be guilty and if they are, there's no reason at all not to punish both.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Unfortunately, I agree with the decision by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      Or, it's a direct message to the citizenry that misconduct by government agents will not be tolerated. If the prosecution is simply allowed to "try again", there is no incentive to behave appropriately in the future.

      How about punishing the prosecutors and forbidding them from trying the case again, while still letting the case itself be tried again by someone else.

      Then it'd be in each individual lawyer's best interest to play by the rules, but we don't throw justice out with the lawyers... erm, so to speak :)

  14. Doesn't matter now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Losing his job was the worst punishment Stevens could have received. The only downside is now they won't rename the airport.

  15. Protection by WED+Fan · · Score: 1

    See my comment to see that these processes and procedures are in place to protect the innocent from being railroaded, harassed, and driven into debt unjustly. The types of abuses that occured before in the U.S. and occur in other countries to this day.

    It does mean that the occassional sleeze bucket goes free, murderous teens get out after a few months, and scum balls can make deals. But, it is there so you don't thrown in jail by the local La Costa Nostra-wannabe Sheriff with a grudge.

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
  16. "An it harm none by symbolset · · Score: 1

    do what you will" shall be the whole of the law.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:"An it harm none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty words, too bad they will never produce a functioning society populated by anything resembling human beings.

    2. Re:"An it harm none by Al+Dimond · · Score: 1

      And everyone shall follow it!

    3. Re:"An it harm none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Works out real well until the first time you run across someone that's not so soft and cuddly.

      *Giggles at the mental image of the Asatru Recons eating bunny stew*

  17. Proof of justice department correcting itself by downix · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Justice Department had a pretty solid case at the beginning, and the Prosecutors bungled it either due to negligence or incompetence. So, the head of the dept changes, reviews, and cans one of the best cases as an example to others in his department that the "no holds barred" approach was no longer acceptable, and that all cases would be held accountable. I tip my hat to the new AG, godspeed in cleaning house, you have a mess on your hands.

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    1. Re:Proof of justice department correcting itself by VoxMagis · · Score: 1

      Yes, somehow I'm SURE that the first thing the new Democrat AG did as soon as he walked in his office on his first day was to dig right into this case.

      Come on. There were plenty of people reviewing this, including (by at least one report) the FBI. The judge nearly held the prosecutors in contempt during the trial. There was odd stuff going on in the jury pool itself!

      Stevens probably was guilty. We'll never know now though, will we?

      --
      -- I really need to bleed off some of this /. karma.
    2. Re:Proof of justice department correcting itself by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      The Justice Department had a pretty solid case at the beginning, and the Prosecutors bungled it either due to negligence or incompetence.

      Of course it looked solid -- the prosecution withheld evidence that helped the defense.

      It doesn't look so solid when we have all the facts.

    3. Re:Proof of justice department correcting itself by notrelevant · · Score: 1

      Cases such as this make me suspicious that perhaps the Prosecutor(s) deliberately bungled the case so as to provide a reason for appeal and overturning of the conviction. They may not have wanted to charge in the first place, but given the likely outcry if they didn't, they decided to mishandle the case so the defense could win an easy appeal.

  18. Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Several jurors have told The Washington Post that the evidence against Stevens was overwhelming during a month-long trial that ended in October.

    Doesn't matter, and surprised /. would post such a trolling and/or clueless aside. The judge ruled the prosecution mishandled evidence and witnesses. The finders of fact, the jurors, were therefore incapable of reaching a just verdict. Their opinions don't matter, because what they heard and saw has been ruled as hopelessly corrupted by prosecutorial misconduct.

    --
    Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    1. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, I'd mod you up "Insightful." You hit the nail on the head.

    2. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So what's the result? He can't find him not guilty. So are they going to try him again? There is no dispute that he received benefit that he didn't pay for. There is no dispute that he didn't report it as income on necessary forms. The question is, did he knowingly lie when he signed those forms? And that issue was decided once that he knew. So, is there another trial of fact, or would that be double-jeopardy and this is a case of a "convicted felon going free on a technicality" (since he was freed for a reason other than findings of fact, it is technically a technicality).

    3. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Doesn't matter, and surprised /. would post such a trolling and/or clueless aside.

      Obligatory:

      You must be new here....

    4. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by alphaFlight · · Score: 1

      Where did this quote come from? There is no such reference to jury's impression of the evidence in the linked Washington Post article.

      --
      -= alphaFlight =-
    5. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 2, Informative
      The case was dismissed with prejudice, so there's no prospect of him being retried on this in the federal courts.

      He could be tried by the State of Alaska on the charges (or any other State), but only such charges that do not trigger federal subject matter jurisdiction. I haven't paid close attention to the case, but I thought the charges were related to alleged federal, not state, violations and/or criminal acts, meaning no prospect of state prosecution.

      Legally, he's not a convicted felon.

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    6. Re:Jury opinion irrelevant, resistance is futile by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 2, Informative

      To clarify my previous post, he could be tried by another State if he is charged with wrongdoing that would bring him under the jurisdiction of that State. Greatly simplifying, he would have to be charged with a civil violation or criminal act of Alaskan law, while under Alaskan jurisdiction.

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
  19. Common Law by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yeah, considering that our legal system is a Common Law system, and that it inherited from British Common Law with all it's many-centuries history, it's ridiculous to think that legal practice was ever simple enough to be contained in only a hundred books, much less one.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
    1. Re:Common Law by hedwards · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not technically correct, while most of the US is indeed common law, with the exception of LA which uses Napoleonic code to this day.

    2. Re:Common Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to get REALLY technically, yes, it was correct. The federal law system is one of common law, although states are free to adopt their own system of law, and in the case of LA, they use the Napoleonic code.

    3. Re:Common Law by Hemogoblin · · Score: 1

      ...with the exception of LA which uses Napoleonic code to this day

      I think you're incorrect about that. It's common law, but it has codified many of it's laws. To quote wikipedia:

      California's legal system is based on common law. Like all U.S. states except Louisiana, California has a reception statute providing for the "reception" of English law. California Civil Code Section 22.2 is as follows: "The common law of England, so far as it is not repugnant to or inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States, or the Constitution or laws of this State, is the rule of decision in all the courts of this State."

      All statutes, regulations, and ordinances are theoretically subject to judicial review. They can be overturned by any state court of record as unconstitutional under the U.S. Constitution or the California Constitution, and can also be declared unconstitutional under the federal Constitution by a federal court.

      Notwithstanding California's status as a common law jurisdiction, it has codified the law in the manner of the civil law jurisdictions. Moreover, California substantive law includes some significant civil law features, such as a system of community property in the context of marital property.

    4. Re:Common Law by Hemogoblin · · Score: 1

      Oh man, I should stop to think for like 2 seconds... you don't mean Los Angeles, you mean Louisiana. Sorry, I'm Canadian and not used to state abbreviations.

    5. Re:Common Law by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      In civil law, we use a Common Law system. This is a criminal matter, so Nulla poena sine lege (no punishment without law) applies.

      Under Common Law, for instance, someone could be tried and punished for something that wasn't codified as a crime in any way.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    6. Re:Common Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. I'm for the USA and was thinking Los Angeles until you mentioned Louisiana.

    7. Re:Common Law by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      Actually that legal code goes back to biblical times and the original 10 commandments, which didn't fit into a single book but on 2 stone slabs.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  20. Sense of proportion by buck-yar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is trolling: Where's the sense of proportion? This was a mutual dealing between two people. It just so happens the guy receiving the favors has a vote in congress. Maybe there's something here, but its like fixing a scratch on the wall in a mobile home.

    Compare this against what's happening with taxpayer dollars; Trillions of dollars going from my and your pockets directly into shady Banks, who will lose our money just like they lost their own.

    1. Re:Sense of proportion by Verdatum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's up there with the argument of "why are you pulling me over for speeding? shouldn't you be out catching murderers and rapists?" We fight any battles that can be fought. no one makes the claim, "oh we would've noticed it was bad to give money to lousy banks, but we were too busy re-evaluating Ted Stevens' trial."

    2. Re:Sense of proportion by Quothz · · Score: 1

      Trillions of dollars going from my and your pockets directly into shady Banks, who will lose our money just like they lost their own.

      That is a pretty good troll, and I wish we saw more like it rather than the tripe that passes for trolling these days.

      I confess I'm vaguely curious as to why you capitalized "Banks" and "Trillions" but not "congress". Your troll is so well-written elsewise, it makes me wonder if it was a deliberate affectation to look a little more cranklike.

    3. Re:Sense of proportion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact is, the people who are whining about this are only doing so because Stevens is a Republican.

  21. This wasn't an April Fool's Day gag? by funky49 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I first heard about the case being dismissed on NPR on April 1st. I was assuming it was an April Fool's Day gag that all the news outlets were picking up.

    --
    --- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
  22. Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by SlappyBastard · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ted Stevens is awesome. Only in Alaska can a man this corrupt live to 85 and never go to jail. Alaska is the anarcho-capitalist Promised Land.

    --
    I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
    1. Re:Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by memorycardfull · · Score: 1

      You mean only in 'Merica! Blago was just doing it wrong.

    2. Re:Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by ozbird · · Score: 1

      If he's too old to go to jail, he should also be too old to be a Senator (but not too old to be in a museum.)

    3. Re:Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haven't detected much concern about the criminal abuses by Federal prosecutors among Slashdot's usual anti-authority malcontents... Plenty of uninformed complaints about Ted getting off the hook, however.

      Selective outrage.

    4. Re:Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Ted Stevens is awesome. Only in Alaska can a man this corrupt live to 85 and never go to jail. Alaska is the anarcho-capitalist Promised Land.

      What are you talking about? You think that Bush is not going to live to 85?

    5. Re:Remember the Hulk tie and the series of toobz! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Anarchy doesn't have a Congress, asshat.

  23. Who got fired? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely something of this magnitude, someone got fired, right?

    1. Re:Who got fired? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fired is the least of their worries. If the behavior was as egregious and deliberate as the judge made it out to be, charges will be involved. Criminal charges including least of all subornation of perjury. If convicted of that simple charge, the minimum that would happen to the lawyers is that they never practice law again.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  24. Democratic or Republican prosecutors? by Glass+Goldfish · · Score: 2, Funny

    Were the prosecutors Republicans or Democrats? It's one thing to have an impartial prosecution of a politican before an election, but a crooked deeply partisan is unacceptable. He does sound guilty though, but who knows what the prosecutors lied about.

    1. Re:Democratic or Republican prosecutors? by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      He was prosecuted by the Alberto Gonzalez (Bush) justice department.

  25. I call shenanigans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enjoy your staying power.

  26. Don't forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." - Anon

    1. Re:Don't forget... by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1

      People that quote themselves always look like jackasses.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    2. Re:Don't forget... by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." - Anon

      You _would_ like to take credit for such an oft used quote, wouldn't you Mr. AC. Robert Hanlon objects:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_Razor

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    3. Re:Don't forget... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Easily countered with "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" - Grey

  27. not necessarily retired by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1

    Stevens is not necessarily retired: Palin, Republicans call for special Senate election.

    He could still be re-elected if Palin and the Republicans get their way. It would be a good thing too, my tubes were just again becoming clogged by too many internets. I keep trying to fix it myself, but I think my problem might be that I'm thinking of the internet as a big truck and that's just not right. It's not a big truck -- I really wish some helpful senator would come fix it for me. No!

    --
    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    1. Re:not necessarily retired by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Blame Al Gore for inventing the darn thing in the first place.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:not necessarily retired by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      That's amazing. However, Sen. Mark Begich would HAVE to resign for a special election to occur, wouldn't he? He was elected and I haven't heard any charges of vote tampering. It doesn't matter what happened, as long as votes were cast by actual citizens on election day and they were counted correctly. The constitution defines the terms for senators as 6 years, trying to replace a sitting senator via special election is unconstitutional.

      It AMAZES me how ultra right-wing republicans cannot see the irony in their professed adoration of the constitution and the complete lack of knowledge of or disdain with which they treat it when it doesn't suit their needs.

      Now every conservative loudmouth is going on about how the corrupt prosecution framed him. Don't they remember it was Bush's justice department? This wasn't a frame job by Democrats if anything since we've heard how the DOJ inappropriately made selections based on political affiliation.

      Still, from what I've heard, Stevens never did pay for those renovations to his house ($80k - $250k). The only thing in dispute here was whether a friend of Stevens told the guy that paid for them to "forget about" the bill, or whether it just never came up. Either way, Stevens got a nice little gift that he never paid for and never reported, which is illegal. Correct me if I'm wrong...

    3. Re:not necessarily retired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's created. Not invented.

  28. Shennanigans by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I honestly can't believe that as much media attention as that whole rigamarole got that said prosecutors would be able to get away with this kind of mishandling of a federal case.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Shennanigans by KiahZero · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It turns out, when you staff the Justice Department based on political ideology rather than capability as lawyers, you get crappy lawyers who have the right political ideology.

      See, for example, Monica Goodling.

      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
    2. Re:Shennanigans by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Yeah but at no point did anyone, pundit, legal talking head, anyone say "Hey, something is wrong here!"

      It just screams backroom dealings.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    3. Re:Shennanigans by drew · · Score: 1

      Wait, you're saying that Stevens was convicted because of Republican political ideology?

      Oh, wait, I get it. Because they were Republicans, they deliberately screwed up the case so that Stevens could get off. OK, that makes perfect sense.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    4. Re:Shennanigans by KiahZero · · Score: 1

      No, I'm saying that the people DOJ was hiring were chosen despite being bad lawyers, so long as they had the correct political ideology.

      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
  29. Well, the thing with home renovations is... by Korey+Kaczor · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, the thing with home renovations is that it's not something you just dump something on. It's not a big truck.

    Especially with plumbing for your home: that's a series of tubes. So, Mr. Stevens was simply suggesting a way for you to not just dump something on.

    1. Re:Well, the thing with home renovations is... by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      My staff sent me an internet about this on Friday, and I didn't get that internet in my email until Monday morning!

  30. selective enforcement by SuperBanana · · Score: 1

    My father-in-law faced one of the prosecutors in a tax case once. She pulled a lot of the same crap then, harassing witnesses, changing the story she was trying to prosecute, etc.

    Exactly. What should be disappointing is not that the case was dismissed, but that much of what went on probably happens in most criminal cases, and it was only because of the political power Stevens wields that the judge decided to call prosecutors on it.

    If you want a decent parallel: selective/discretionary enforcement of speed/traffic laws. You can't possibly stop everyone- which works nicely as an excuse for both why you didn't stop the rich white guy, and why you did stop the guy with the turban. Add in "officer's discretion" on whether to write a ticket or warning for a nice cherry on top of the "tools to discriminate" pie.

  31. Misconduct by *Republican* Prosecutors by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As the Liberal Media have been pointing out, the prosecutors here were the corrupt and politically biased Bush Administration Justice Department, which was led by the corrupt Alberto Gonzalez, who Stevens had voted to confirm a few years before. So if there was intentional misconduct, well, nyahh nyahh.

    Of course, if there was prosecutorial misconduct, and they have to drop those charges, chances are good that they've blown their Double Jeopardy roll and can't try him again and can't throw the old man in jail.

    But that doesn't mean Stevens wasn't corrupt enough to deserve not to get re-elected, even though the Republicans are now trying to pretend that since they're the minority party, they should get a do-over on the election.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Misconduct by *Republican* Prosecutors by Improv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Republicans, like Democrats (and virtually every other political movement), are not a hive-mind. There are all sorts of voices in the party, from individuals to political factions. It is entirely possible that he was attacked by other Republicans for political or personal reasons, because some factions needed a scapegoat, or alternatively that this was literally just a normal trial with no political railroading.

      I don't believe Double Jeopardy applies in these situations (but IANAL).

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    2. Re:Misconduct by *Republican* Prosecutors by rochberg · · Score: 1

      But that doesn't mean Stevens wasn't corrupt enough to deserve not to get re-elected[...]

      Wow. Umm, I don't know if I shouldn't not disagree with the falsity of the negation.

  32. the problem was VECO by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    Most of the disputed "gift" expenses concern oilfield promoter-contractor VECO Corp and Bill Allen trying to curry favor and a false image as an efficient, low cost contractor on Stevens' house. VECO's bad planning and futzing around probably doubled VECO/Allen's out of pocket costs for rennovation, where Stevens paid approximately what the result was actually worth.

    I am an Anchorage home owner with as much rennovation, a lot of oil suits hate me, and I have repeatedly voted against that old coot but this was a "people's court" lynching.

  33. No, Lets be REALLY clear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The false testimony was the entire case. The actual facts of the case is that Senator Ted Stevens did in fact request the bill for the renovations exactly as he has claimed. The testimony to the contrary was fabricated by the prosecution, and exculpatory evidence was hidden by the prosecution. He was convicted for making false statements, when his statements were true.

    There was no $250,000, there was no $80,000 -- there was just false testimony presented by the prosecution.

    Here's to hoping the prosecutors get a long stay in federal prison.

    1. Re:No, Lets be REALLY clear by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Stevens in his OWN VOICE recorded talking with Allen:
      STEVENS: That's, that's the way it should be. But as a practical matter, the question is, what can they convince the jury, uh grand jury, to charge us with? That's the problem. But when I was a district attorney, I handled grand juries, lots of them. They're funny people, but they also are people from within the community. And your reputation and everything else comes into play, as far as grand juries are concerned ... We ought to just cool it. I told Ben the same thing: just cool it, you know, go about our business and smile and have a happy face ... Do the things you used to do and just keep going. If it's a violation of the elections law, that's a corporate violation. This thing, it shouldn't, it shouldn't get to your mind, old buddy."
      ALLEN: Well it has been, I'll tell you."
      STEVENS:...You've got to get a mental attitude that these guys can't really hurt us. You know, they're not going shoot us. It's not Iraq. What the hell? The worst that can be done, the worst that can happen to us is we round up a bunch of legal fees and might lose and we might have to pay a fine, might have to serve a little time in jail. I hope to Christ it never gets to that ...

      Oh yeah it sounds like an innocent man there, not one playing the odds that his massive Alaska support base will get him off of whatever he does. He *knew* it was illegal and did it anyway.

      He also readily admitted he didn't pay for many of the things he received; the grill, the furniture, the permanent generator, the massage chair. Yet he didn't disclose those things as he was *legally obligated* to do.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    2. Re:No, Lets be REALLY clear by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah it sounds like an innocent man there, not one playing the odds that his massive Alaska support base will get him off of whatever he does. He *knew* it was illegal and did it anyway.

      It doesn't sound like a guilty man to me. It doesn't sound like an innocent one either. What it sounds like is a guy who knows a thing or two about how trials work and is very interested in winning.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  34. Down the Tubes by ambrosius27 · · Score: 1

    You might say that his conviction went down the tubes.

    --

    ~~~~~~~~~
    dissertus scribendo latine videri volo.
  35. Yes, a botched prosecution. by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 1

    The prosecution did indeed screw up, but keep in mind, the system worked as intended. Because of misconduct by the prosecution team, the entire trial of Ted Stevens was tainted, and his conviction was rightfully tossed.

    At this point, it doesn't even matter if he really was guilty or innocent. Once the prosecution screws up this badly, everything about the case is thrown into question. We should not let our personal feelings of someone cloud our judgment. If you were standing trial for something that could potentially land you in prison and the prosecution withheld key evidence, you would be wanting your conviction to be tossed as well.

    At this point, all that matters is that Ted Stevens did not get a fair trial. Regardless of the letter next to his name (R or D), he still has rights and we would want the same treatment if we were in his place. Does it suck that serial murderers and serial rapists can potentially get off on a technicality?* Yes. C'est la vie.

    *No, I'm not comparing Stevens to a murderer or rapist, I'm just pointing out that this system applies to everyone who is accused, from petty thieves to serial killers.

  36. Hmm.. by iceperson · · Score: 1

    Seems to me like you went ahead and convicted him anyway...

  37. Stevens is small potatos by greg_barton · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Overturning the Stevens conviction is a cover, but not for what you might think. THe big problem facing the Obama administration is that the Justice Department is radically broken. For the past eight years hiring of career Justice Department employees has been a partisan affair, with conservative political beliefs being the litmus test. Partly because of this a culture of corruption has spread.

    So, how does the Stevens reversal play into this?

    1) Reverse Stevens convictions, getting approval from Republicans, so when you

    2) start overturning other political witch hunts you have cover, and then

    3) use the overturned cases as a way to go after corrupt Justice Department officials, giving you concrete reasons to fire them.

    So, this is just the beginning. Wait and watch.

    1. Re:Stevens is small potatos by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      You forgot step 4 Insert RIAA cronies into newly vacated positions. Exactly what positive thing are you hoping to come from Obama's DOJ?

    2. Re:Stevens is small potatos by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Why do you keep harping about Bush's time?
      Its been 5 months since Obama was elected.
      Can't his AG prove ANYTHING against Ted "Tube" Stevens?
      Pardon me, but i don't think Obama is the True Messiah that you jokers claim him to be..
      After all, he has immunity from wiretapping, while claiming during campaigning that he was against it
      Am sure a deal was struck between the administration and Stevens, after all Mr.Tube has immense connections and Obama needs to deflect Palin from running against him in 2012...
      Of course you Obama supporters will crown me with a tin hat foil, but prove me wrong if Ted Stevens becomes cooler against Palin while warming up against Obama...

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    3. Re:Stevens is small potatos by hey! · · Score: 1

      It may have been five months since Obama was elected, but his AG is brand spankin' new on the job. Not to mention he's had other things to do in his first three months on the job other than putting Ted Stevens head on a pike, like learn the names of his staff, and review the past administration's policies. You can hardly expect him to sort out this mess in that time as well. If there is one thing this case shows, its that we don't want sloppy prosecution. It's crazy that we even have to be reminded of this. Ramming people through highly public, procedurally broken trials is a favorite tactic of dictators.

      The reason we're going back to the Bush administration is that it is very likely that Bush administration officials committed crimes in this case. The judge starting contempt proceedings now against the prosecutors that will probably result in them being disbarred at the very least. It's a crime of negligence, but that doesn't matter. A democracy can't afford to let its legal system run people over with crappy prosecutions -- even guilty people. Every legal right a person has, voting, freedom of speech and assembly, property, even the right to life; every one of these rights can be taken away from an individual by a court of law.

      Therefore the standards of conduct for such courts must be amazingly high. Ted Stevens is nothing compared to this. They probably could convict him on the second time around, but he is nothing compared to the importance of keeping prosecutions honest. When a court orders some right of a citizen to be stripped from him, we cannot allow cases like his to overshadow that act. There has to be a higher standard of legal success than the count of heads stuck on a pike.

      The AG is sending a message that getting the DoJ's house in order is his highest priority. That's a good call, in my opinion.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:Stevens is small potatos by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      What you say is logical.
      But this is politics.
      The AG could have continued to tie up Mr.Tube in courts for a long time, just like the IRS did telecoms for 28 long years.
      The way it was handled smacks of something bigger.
      Same way the forced resignation of Eliot Spitzer and subsequent fraud at AIG/BofA/Citi, etc.
      Now that Eliot Spitzer has NOT been charged by FBI, why don't Democrats or Republicans want him back as NYC mayor?
      After all the same Dems and Palin want Tube Stevens back...
      Call me Ismael, but i think this is a symptom of a larger picture

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  38. To be human by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    Why do you think it is less human to be free? I think that participating in a society where you must constantly hold everyone else in check at the point of a gun makes us less human. What Man would chose live his whole life in constant fear of punishment so that they might exact the same on another? Maturity means not choosing to sacrifice my freedom for the false promise of security. The world today is populated by adult children. I want no part of that.

    1. Re:To be human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that participating in a society where you must constantly hold everyone else in check at the point of a gun makes us less human.

      The problem isn't that most people need to be held in check at gun point, and even with the erosion of personal liberties going on today most aren't in any real way. Yet, in the real world, there are people that will use any means to take what they want without remorse, or will hurt others just for their own enjoyment, or will hate you because of some arbitrary difference, or harm you because you disagree with them. That is a fundamental aspect of the human experience; any human society is one with jerks, assholes, and sociopaths. Societies through-out time have sought different ways to change this reality, but none of them have worked. The best we can do is have a society that (usually) protects the rights of the (often) reasonable majority of citizens, while (more often than not) punishing those who do illicitly harm others. To that end, we have laws, courts, and police; because it is the lesser of all evils. If we didn't have these then we really would have to hold each other in check at gun point, because there would be no other way to dissuade people from harming us, or to protect ourselves from those who are not dissuaded.

      The world today is populated by adult children. I want no part of that.

      If you simply dismiss the realities of the human experience, then you are either a child (regardless of chronological age) or a fool. Yes, I too would love to live in the world where what "harm towards no one" was the only law. Unfortunately, even if it could be realized, it would never last more than a single generation. The simple truth is there are people who will destroy even the utopian free society in order to remake in their own image. Not all who try will be capable of doing so, but eventually one of them will find a way.

    2. Re:To be human by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      The whole idea of gathering a select group of leaders to lord over us is childish. We have build an elaborate system of punishments and rewards to heard ourselves though life like cattle. I don't want to be poked and prodded through life, and accepting such a "system" would make me inhuman. I need to drive myself through life.

      There are sociopaths, but no system can protect me from them. People are contrary by nature and they do not like being categorized or controlled. They are not compliant, they simply find ways to accomplish their goals from within the system, or learn to live outside it.

      By trying to control these people and denying the realities of human existence you are only making the problem worse.

  39. Planted Prosecution? by DavidD_CA · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    What are the odds that one or more of the "prosecutors" were planted by Stevens or his allies?

    I know that's totally tin-foil-hat-enducing conspiracy theory, but with how rich and connected this guy is, is it unreasonable to think that he convinced someone to have someone else make a few mistakes?

    Maybe there *should* be criminal charges against the prosecution, but not necessarily in the way that the judge has implied.

    But I also think that we need a new (fair) trial, and that this guy should not get off just because he's old or no longer in power. And that's what it looks like has happened. (And no, his "damaged reputation" is not punishment enough if he is indeed guilty.)

    --
    -David
    1. Re:Planted Prosecution? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      What are the odds that one or more of the "prosecutors" were planted by Stevens or his allies?

      You think one would deliberately commit a major felony intending to GET CAUGHT, kicked out of legal practice, and probably thrown into federal PMITA prison, in the hope that his crime gets Stevens off (when Stevens will STILL be out of office)? Get real! Even if the Republicans had such martyrs available this would not be the place to expend one.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  40. When the jury returns such a clear verdict by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    THAT is when you know there's a ream of evidence.

    And this isn't overturned because of manufactured evidence or even evidence of no crime. This was overturned on a procedural technicality.

    That the contractor said "hey, it's free" and Ted never wrote anything down saying "thanks" personally doesn't prove squat.

    If it had been $50 worth of paint, maybe. $X0,000 renovation? NO WAY.

    If you walk out with $20 of unpaid goods in your pocket you won't get to demand the CCTV footage that shows you looking at the item, taking out a hanky to blow your nose and then putting the hanky and the item "absent-mindedly" in your pocket before walking to the till to pay your other goods. If they refused, you wouldn't get off scott free.

    'cept unless you have high-paying solicitors.

    But if the justice you get depends on the money spent on solicitors, your justice system is no justice.

  41. Anyone who thought Stevens was going to jail by RCanine · · Score: 1

    ...is naive. He's rich and well-connected. That the Bush administrations DOJ--the same one that overwhelmingly investigated Democrats over Republicans--bungled his case probably just saved them from having to pardon him.

  42. New Trial by Uberbah · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Instead of dropping the charges, the DOJ should have asked for a new trial - which is exactly what Steven's attorneys were asking for.

    No, the bullshit is that Don Siegleman is still a convict while Steven's walks. The prosecutorial misconduct was far, far, FAR, FAR worse in the case of the former governor than it was for the former senator. Just to start with, the prosecutor who went after Siegleman is married to the campaign manager of Siegleman's opponent.

    1. Re:New Trial by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      I understand why they didn't. As stated above, he's old and he's already been punished by losing his career. My only problem with not having a mistrial is that it allows him to run around the country claiming vindication when there is concrete evidence that he took bribes and unreported gifts.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    2. Re:New Trial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If losing your career is a satisfactory punishment then you better empty your jails now - cus i guarantee most if not all ex-cons can't just walk out and pick-up their careers again (unless they're career crims ofc).

      Losing his career has little to do with the courts and jack shit to do with Justice - its politics. Justice has not been served in any way, shape or form until a proper trial has been completed.

  43. All is fair in love and war by hwyhobo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And at the same time flagrant tax cheats and criminals are nominated to cabinet positions with scantly a snicker from the media. We are at war in this country, and neither side displays even the slightest shred of integrity or ethics.

    Quo vadis, USA?

    --
    End anonymous moderation and posting on /.
    1. Re:All is fair in love and war by drew · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends what you consider a flagrant tax cheat. Tom Daschle was definitely an exceptional case, and I'm glad he got pulled from consideration. (Although it does make you wonder, with all the talk about "deliberate haste" how that wasn't caught sooner...) The other two I'm not so sure about. I haven't followed the most recent flap too closely, but $7000 over 3 years is certainly in the range that seems like it could have been an honest mistake. As for Geithner... Well, it was a fair amount of money, but have you ever filed self employment taxes? The last time I did, I made a mistake that was bigger (relative to my actual income) than that. Eventually the mistake was discovered, and it was corrected. We move on...

      Of course, in the last administration, the big deal was Cabinet nominees who employed illegal immigrants, and in the Administration before that it was... I don't even remember any more. I'm torn between wondering why it's so hard to find a dozen or so people in Washington D.C. that actually follow the law, and wondering whether the laws have become so Byzantine that they could dig up dirt on anybody.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    2. Re:All is fair in love and war by hwyhobo · · Score: 1

      wondering whether the laws have become so Byzantine that they could dig up dirt on anybody

      I will go with this one. The system is so broken, no reasonable person follows all the rules. It doesn't, of course, excuse those who make the rules and then don't bother following them. They should be held to account.

      I do believe, however, that it is time to elect a para-libertarian government who would purge many of the idiotic laws and regulations.

      --
      End anonymous moderation and posting on /.
  44. More than one problem with this case... by rickb928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is also the small matter of the prosecution sending one of their witnesses home to Washington State because he was ill.

    This witness was also on the defense list. The prosecutors sent him home without notifying the defense, which is such an obvious abuse that the judge nearly stopped the trial right then and there.

    But no matter. The prosecution got what they wanted - Stevens is no longer a Senator. That can't be rectified.

    Remember, the rules apply to all of us. When they come to accuse you of something, will you be so trusting of the prosecutors?

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  45. Truly Screwed by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    So first they make sure he's truly screwed right before a critical Senate seat election. Now they say Nevermind! No matter where you are in the political spectrum -- especially if you're an Alaska voter -- can this be considered justice. All involved in this farce should be in jail for a good long time (e.g. 10 years w/no time off and no Club Fed)!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  46. Our legal system... by Brett+Glass · · Score: 1

    ...is obviously just a series of tubes.

  47. There's only one thing to say... by Qubit · · Score: 1

    No!

    (I can't find a good video of the context there -- this one has a bit more)

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  48. LOL. by tjstork · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No wonder Stevens got off the hook. When it comes to people in power, there is plenty of reason to believe that the law is more overly applied by
    political opponents than it is applied at all.

    Same thing with Obama's economic team.

    Did the Sec-Treasury cheat on his taxes? Yeah, but, making a big circus out of it was overkill from a political opposition. I would only really be bitter about Obama's people getting all nazi-fied over taxes if they started nailing everyone else to the wall.

    --
    This is my sig.
  49. I think... by bondjamesbond · · Score: 0

    He's got something on someone.

  50. Technicalities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is the "getting off on a technicality" that conservatives like Stevens are always railing against. Are they going to now protest in front of the courthouse? I doubt it.

    1. Re:Technicalities by praksys · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a technicality. A key part of the "overwhelming" evidence was the testimony of one guy, and a lot turned on whether that one guy was telling the truth. Turns out that one guy told the investigators a totally different story when they first interviewed him. That raises a substantive issue about his credibility and the credibility of the evidence he gave, not just a technical issue about whether some evidence was obtained in the right way.

      The issue conservatives often complain about (actually it isn't just conservatives, just about everyone outside of the US thinks that this is an absolutely mental feature of the US legal system) is the exclusion of evidence that was obtained improperly regardless of whether the impropriety affects the credibility of the evidence.

      For example, a murderer can say "Yes I killed her, and her head is in my fridge", the cops can then go and find the head in the guys fridge, only to see the freely given confession and conclusive physical evidence thrown out because someone forgot to tell the killer he was entitled to speak to a lawyer.

      In other words, even if there is no doubt about the reliability of evidence, and even if the evidence is conclusive, US courts will sometimes throw out that perfectly good evidence just because someone didn't follow the correct procedures when they obtained it. That is what conservatives mean when they complain about someone getting off "on a technicality".

  51. This was purposefully done by cc_pirate · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Remember that the GOP controlled the Justice Department at this time. They did this on purpose to prevent Stevens from having to serve jail time. It's ingenious, especially since he was guilty as sin and they knew it.

    --

    "There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur

    1. Re:This was purposefully done by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Very interesting theory. I'd like to see how the prosecutors react to being charged for throwing the fight.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    2. Re:This was purposefully done by maxume · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how anyone would be willing to throw away their career for an 85 year old has been.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:This was purposefully done by base3 · · Score: 1

      When one and/or members of one's family can "disappear" or develop a mysterious illness, one could be quite motivated to comply.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  52. Only when LA == Louisiana by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > That's not technically correct, while most of the US is indeed common law, with the exception of LA which uses Napoleonic code to this day.

    You should be more clear about whether you mean Louisiana or Los Angeles when you write that.

    Especially because I believe it's Louisiana (and not Los Angeles) which uses the Napoleonic code.

  53. You're just now noticing this? by whiledo · · Score: 1

    Because YRO is one of the most frequently misused topics. Seriously.

    --
    Moderators: Before moderating a comment Insightful/Informative, check to see if a child post has already refuted it.
  54. Mod parent -1: Wrong by whiledo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry, but you're wrong.

    However, it is incorrect to equate the Louisiana Civil Code with the Napoleonic Code. Although the Napoleonic Code strongly influenced Louisiana law, it was never in force in Louisiana, as it was enacted in 1804, after the Louisiana Purchase of 1803. While the Louisiana Civil Code of 1808 has been continuously revised and updated since its enactment, it is still considered the controlling authority in the state.

    While it would have been true to say Louisiana's legal system is influenced by the Napoleonic code and is very different from the common law systems in all the other states, it's not the same thing as saying it uses Napoleonic code.

    Hope you don't take offense for having this pointed out.

    --
    Moderators: Before moderating a comment Insightful/Informative, check to see if a child post has already refuted it.
    1. Re:Mod parent -1: Wrong by whiledo · · Score: 1

      Damn dangling quotes. Nested quote is mine. Sorry for the confusions. Just proof that we all make mistakes. Wonder if this could be a corollary to Muphry's Law.

      --
      Moderators: Before moderating a comment Insightful/Informative, check to see if a child post has already refuted it.
  55. not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    one manifestation of corruption is bogus corruption charges.

  56. Not for Nerds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not news for nerds.

  57. Well, at least the title of your post is right. by ChePibe · · Score: 1

    But clearly, I view the subject of the assertion a bit differently...

    Procedural mistakes should not overturn convictions that are this overwhelming.

    So, what standard do you propose? Is it OK for the prosecution to withhold evidence because the other guy is "really bad" and it would be a shame if he were acquitted?

    I could've sworn we had juries for some reason...

    The prosecution in this case withheld evidence from a defendant. They could be - and, if I had to bet money, probably will be - disbarred for this.

    Why? Because this little thing called the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (the "one book" I imagine you alluding to) grants defendants the right to confront their accusers. That's pretty damn hard to do when the prosecution does not hand over its evidence as it is required to do by law and as the attorneys are required to do by their ethical obligation.

    Now, why would this be important? Oh, I don't know. Let's say you get accused of a murder you didn't commit. Sadly, you have no alibi for the night in question and an awful lot of circumstantial evidence just happens to point your way. But, in the course of its investigation, the prosecution happens to turn up a piece of evidence that demonstrates you could not have possibly committed the crime (say you happen to have randomly been caught on a security camera somewhere, whatever, it doesn't really matter what the evidence is). Now, what should the prosecution do? Drop the case. Immediately. But Mr. Prosecutor has an awful lot riding on this case, you know. A promotion. Some political concern. He doesn't want to just walk away from it - he's invested too much, and maybe he thinks you're just a bad guy and should go to jail anyways. So he goes forward with it, and just conveniently "forgets" to hand over that one piece of exculpatory evidence you so desperately needed. You get convicted. Sorry! You're in jail!

    Failure to hand over evidence is not merely a "procedural mistake". In this case, it was the result a conscious effort by the prosecution to keep evidence out of the hands of the defense. This is no mistake - this is keeping important information out of the hands of the finder of fact (the jury) so the prosecutors can put someone in jail. This is very, very, very bad. It games the system, it runs the risk of imprisoning the innocent, and it simply should not be allowed.

    Now here, to be quite frank, we have a case of a scumbag getting out because the attorneys trying him were also scumbags. But I'd rather this scumbag got off than allow this sort of misconduct to continue. Someday I might find myself as a defendant, and the possibility that the prosecution, which has access to far more investigatory resources than I ever would, could withhold evidence from my attorney that could be used in my defense. There's a reason for the confrontation clause and the proper cross-examination of a witness is simply impossible without full access to evidence.

    The practice of law used to require one book, when we found this nation maybe a 100 now there are 10's of thousands of books involving the law in various aspects and it has gotten to be too much.

    Hogwash.

    When, pray tell, did the practice of law - an actual system of laws, not simply a dictatorship - ever require just "one book" in the last thousand years? Hell, look at Roman law, Rabbinical scripts, you name it. Are you thinking about Hammurabi's Code or something?

    As to "maybe 100" books when this nation was "found" [sic]? Please. American law is based on English Common Law, which by 1776 was quite voluminous and filled libraries. There was far more to it than a mere "100 books".

    As to the "10's of thousands of books" dealing with the law now, it's true. There are lots of books dealing with the law, including uncountable volumes of case law. That's just how it works in a common law system - each year, people seem to piss other people off and

  58. Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by mi · · Score: 1, Informative

    I bet he thinks Clinton was commander-in-chief on 9/11, too. Don't laugh. I've heard it said on "conservative" talk radio.

    The attack took 5 years to prepare. Most of it — on Clinton's watch.

    Another point against Clinton is that he refused to accept Osama bin Laden, when Sudan offered him. Clinton was a lawyer and rejected the offer, because there was no grand jury indictment against Osama (yet). So instead of going to a US jail, Osama went to Yemen and is mocking the US ever since — inspiring thousands of terrorists world-wide. For better or worse, Bush — not being a lawyer — would've taken Sudan on their offer and the 9/11 would never have happened. USS Cole would, probably, not have been attacked either.

    There is plenty in 9/11 to blame Clinton for... Most in fact...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Right, and Reagan created Bin Laden in the first place. If we're going to go back in time to place blame, let's start at the source.

    2. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, blaming Clinton AND US foreign policy for the last 20 years would be a good start

    3. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not so certain anymore Osama had anything to do with 9/11, if in fact he even exists. How long would it take to identify and locate a real individual, with hundreds of thousands of people from which to select a hunting team?
      There's more going on here. The flying school Atta was trained at appears to be running drugs in their planes. The results of the attack were a highly PERSONALLY profitable war at the expense of this country. What organization carries the signature of drug running, especially between here and South America, in order to raise profits? The CIA. Who ran the CIA
      This has been going on for years, was publicly uncovered during Iran Contra, and will continue.
      Once again, there's far more here just waiting to be uncovered.

    4. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by FooGoo · · Score: 1

      Actually funding the Afghans against the Soviets started with Carter. Thanks for playing.

      --
      People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
    5. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Now now, if we're going to give Carter credit for the Taliban then Carter defeated the soviets and won the cold war. Can't have it both ways, sorry.

      I took the traditional route of: it was nowhere near enough funding to get anything done, that most like to take. We can play it the other way if you'd like.

    6. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by FooGoo · · Score: 1

      How about we play it where they both are responsible for the success and failures.

      Or we could just blame the Soviets. If they Didn't invade Afghanistan Carter and Reagan wouldn't have funded the opposition and they still might be a super power today. We've essentially traded one bogeyman (the Soviets) for another in Bin Laden.

      --
      People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
    7. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Uhhh during 9/11 Bush's father was meeting with osama's father. George was in a meeting with them the night before. The bush's and the bin ladens had very close ties. I dunno what you've been smoking.

    8. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OBL was a wealthy Saudi who in his own words was hell bent on revenge for "US bombs raining down on Lebannon". OBL is the one perched at the top of the blame tree, the various presidents are in the victim tree.

    9. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by dbIII · · Score: 1

      With respect, we do not know what the other side of the deal is, or how trustworthy those who were being dealt with were - and even if they could be trusted to deliver would they be capable of doing so. Remember Sudan is such a basket case that people hate China for sending oil companies there. It may have been a major lost chance just like the later one of pulling out the army so the CIA could get the credit of capturing a defeated Bin Laden (doh!), but personally I think that is a bit of a stretch.
      Neither Clinton, Bush, Bush Snr, Reagan or Carter can be blamed for it - the blame lies with Bin Laden. Aspects of US foreign policy implementation have been utterly stupid for a very long time (especially letting uncontrolled spooks do stuff that undermines policy) but remember that after 9/11 even Libya's Ghadaffi offered to help. Despite a million "freedom fries" insults most of the world is happy with the USA as it is apart from cosmetic changes (and a desire to keep them out of their backyard and not kill their kids).

    10. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by fluxrad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is plenty in 9/11 to blame Clinton for... Most in fact...

      Actually, I think you can blame most of 9/11 on Osama Bin Laden and the hijackers.

      Honestly, your post is flamebait. This kind of prepared terrorist attack is nearly impossible to prevent, particularly in a reasonably free nation. I blame neither Clinton nor Bush for 9/11. Also, with regard to this:

      Clinton was a lawyer and rejected the offer [wikipedia.org], because there was no grand jury indictment against Osama (yet)

      The source for your link is an LA Times opinion piece. Please don't do that here.

      --
      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    11. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you could read, look at any picture you want of khalid sheik mohammed or bin laden, if i were a terrorist and someone just blew the f out of a bunch of people and said that i did it, hell yea i'd take the popularity of my followers. israel did 9/11, they benefited the most out of it and the will continue to kill and expand while spying on americans.. and people like Chas Freeman will go unknown.. and everyone will still be called an "anti-semite" who says one thing different about jews.. but you know damn well that jews are "anti-gentiles".. stupid unnecessary words they come up with, latter probably isn't a word but it should be since they make up their own words for everything.

    12. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, this entire thing is a misnomer. Neither carter nor Reagan created the Taliban or Bin Laden.

      Both administrations funded the northern alliance and both administrations rejected bin laden's band of rebels. The Mujahideen or the later named northern aliance after the split is separate from the taliban. The Taliban didn't exist until after the soviet withdraw and their existence was dependent on our lack of support for creating a proper government. The Mujaheddin fractured into war lords with the majority becoming the northern alliance who created the Islamic State of Afghanistan. The taliban which was comprised of displaced mercenaries, some from bin ladens rejected group and some just exwarior in the battles agaomst the soviet union wasn't even in existence until 1996 which was well after the US stopped funding operations in Afghanistan.

      So the blame rests nowhere unless you count the lack of funding as support which is sort of taking liberties of history to a new level.

    13. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      There is a reason why the constitution expressly forbids corruption of blood. That is because each and every person is considered their own person and offspring doesn't indict parental units of wrong doing because of their own independent actions.

      If a guy gets drunk, drives and gets into an accident that kills a family of four, you surely don't suggest that his wife and kids should be executed do you? I didn't think so but I'm wondering why you seem to think that the parents of Bin laden should be responsible for his actions when he was an adult living independent of them.

      Or is this nothing more then one last attempt to grasp and evil to blame on bush? I mean after all, you failed to mention that Bin Laden's own family publicly disowned him years before 9/11. But you were explicit in implying something more to some irrelevant fact of family members of the then administration having relations with the parents of a disowned son.

      I don't know what you have been smoking but the relationships between two insignificant players means nothing!

    14. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by ticktickboom · · Score: 0

      we dont want to catch him. without him, the war on terror is over. then tehy cant take more of our rights and scare us into buying tuna and duct tape. anyway, hes dead. cnn among others has reported this.

    15. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      For better or worse, Bush -- not being a lawyer -- would've taken Sudan on their offer [of rendering Bin Laden] and the 9/11 would never have happened.

      Assuming of course that Osama bin Laden actually had anything to do with the September 11th attacks.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    16. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      This kind of prepared terrorist attack is nearly impossible to prevent, particularly in a reasonably free nation.

      Please don't say things like that because, if true, the people of this country will almost certainly vote in factor of prevention rather than freedom. Perils of living in a democracy is the people get what they think they want.

    17. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      Please don't say things like that because, if true, the people of this country will almost certainly vote in factor of prevention rather than freedom

      The last 30 years have pretty much proven this to be the case.

      --
      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    18. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fluxrad:

      Actually, I think you can blame most of 9/11 on Osama Bin Laden and the hijackers.

      Yes, first and fore-most al-Qaeda is to blame. Although, Clinton's negligence earns him a close second as he could have prevented the attacks were he as aggressive with America's enemies as he was with Whitehouse interns. The 9/11 attacks proved his priorities to be fatally misaligned.

      fluxrad:

      This kind of prepared terrorist attack is nearly impossible to prevent

      That would be true if al-Qaeda and their activities were completely unknown, but that simply wasn't the case. Therefore, your point is invalid and irrelevant in relation to 9/11. Included below is a listing of al-Qaeda attacks perpetrated on America during Clinton's time in office.

      1992 Yemen Hotel Bombings (targeting US servicemen)
      1993 Somalia Attacks
      1993 World Trade Center Bombing
      1996 Khobar Towers Bombing (targeting US servicemen)
      1998 Kenya US Embassy Bombing
      1998 Tanzania US Embassy Bombing
      2000 USS Cole Bombing

      fluxrad:

      Honestly, your post is flamebait.

      Honestly, you don't get to decide that, the facts do. Just because you chose to ignore certain facts that disagree with your politics doesn't mean that everyone that disagrees with you is flame-bait. The truth is flame-bait only to those who ignore the facts.

    19. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by Cornflake917 · · Score: 1

      Who decided to mod this post informative, when its off-topic, flamebait, and trollish all at the same time?

    20. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by mi · · Score: 1

      This kind of prepared terrorist attack is nearly impossible to prevent, particularly in a reasonably free nation.

      Well, in 2002 the papers were full of gloomy predictions like yours, stating, that the next attack would take place within 12-18 months. None happened. Either all those "experts" were full of shit, or Bush is owed some credit. Or both...

      The source for your link is an LA Times opinion piece. Please don't do that here.

      Why? What's wrong with an — educated and reasonably substantiated — opinion?

      That Clinton rejected Sudan's offer is a matter of fact. Why he did so is the matter of speculation, of course. But the point of my posting was to demonstrate, that blaming Clinton for 9/11 is not entirely without merit.

      Back to Clinton's mistake — it does exemplify the difference in approaches. Clinton rejected bin Laden, and he, probably, wouldn't have authorized Guantanamo either.

      Bush would've taken bin Laden and worry about legalities later. Hate it all you want, but 9/11 would've been prevented, and the major hassles and invasions into citizens' privacy along with it...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    21. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by mi · · Score: 1

      The source for your link is an LA Times opinion piece.

      Actually, it is an "opinion" of a man, who organized and participated in the negotiations. Unless he is lying, what he says is facts — not mere speculation.

      President Clinton and his national security team ignored several opportunities to capture Osama bin Laden and his terrorist associates, including one as late as last year.

      I know because I negotiated more than one of the opportunities.

      Interestingly, the strongest statement intended to counter the above allegation falls completely flat and, in fact, supports the conclusion, that Clinton (and the rest of us) was let down by his legal background:

      Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Ladin over to the United States. The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Ladin. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment out-standing.

      Please don't do that here.

      Your snobbery may have gathered you some "insightful" moderations, but you are still full of shit, fluxrad...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    22. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by brkello · · Score: 1

      Except Clinton told Bush that bin Laden was someone to watch out for and Bush ignored it because the only threat in his eyes was Iraq. The largest terrorist attack in U.S. history happened on his watch. If you can not lay a lot of the blame at his feet, then you get your information from highly biased sites and news sources.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    23. Re:Blaming Clinton for 9/11 by mi · · Score: 1

      Except Clinton told Bush that bin Laden was someone to watch out for

      You have a record of that conversation? If bin Laden was such a concern for Clinton, why didn't he target himself — there is perfectly credible evidence, that he could've done it himself even as late as July 2000 — mere six months before Bush assumed power... Perhaps, Clinton didn't really consider bin Laden to be such a threat, after all... Foolishly so.

      because the only threat in his eyes was Iraq.

      No, actually, prior to 9/11 Bush was concentrating on his domestic agenda in 2001 — cutting taxes to get out of Clinton's bubble-bursting (NASDAQ fell nearly 3-times in 2000, remember?), reforming education, Social Security, and Medicare. It was only after 9/11, that he decided to stop "fly-swatting" (taking out individual terrorists) and go to Middle East in force (starting with Iraq)...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  59. the question as to whether the conviction by alizard · · Score: 1

    being thrown out represents "restoral of the rule of law" or just another way of protecting connected fat cats is for AG Holder to answer. Note that Holder is the one who moved to stop the prosecution before the judge acted.

    If the prosecutors are fired on a basis of this misconduct and/or are subject to criminal investigation if this conduct can be reasonably held to be a deliberate attempt to make criminal prosecution impossible, Holder is restoring the rule of law.

    If the prosecutors are left in place, we can assume that Holder got what he actually wanted, a GOP ex-senator walking free, and what we've got is "the law applies only to the little people", not change any sane person would believe in.

  60. Nothing to see here by Muros · · Score: 1

    He's a politician, for Christs sake. Duly elected by GOD, with incidental help from voters. You think you have a right to ask him about his business dealings? Who the hell exactly do you think you are?

  61. Dirt by witherstaff · · Score: 1

    I can only wonder how much dirt Stevens has on other politicians. It might be better for everyone in Washington to just make it go away. The Cover Your Ass-ness of politics is impressive.

  62. hey, dumbass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The pranksters behind Eisenstadt acknowledge that he was not, through them, the anonymous source of the Palin leak. He just claimed falsely that he was the leaker--and they say they have no reason to cast doubt on the original story. For its part, Fox News Channel continues to stand behind its story.

  63. Speaking as a former juror .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Well, this guy may or may not be innocent, but he sure does deserve to be in prison,"
    my case had a defendant who was clearly guilty of a great many things. However, she was NOT demonstrably guilty of the crime she was actually charged with. Now, several on the jury were perfectly ready to send her to the big house anyway. Fortunately, for her, there were those of us who took our responsibilities seriously and disagreed.

    The foreman howled about how justice was being put aside because we would not cave in. I replied that a mistrial simply sent the prosecution back to do their job properly. If the prosecution had desired they could always retry. I have no idea if they did. In any case, the prosecution did a pretty bad job. Possibly they hoped that the obvious character flaws of the defendant would cover their crappy case.

  64. Holy crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA:

    Wednesday, April 8, 2009; A01

    Normally slashdot is late on reporting stuff, but in this case they managed to post a story from the future.

  65. RE: The Justice of George Walker Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Names of the Bush Procecuters ... are known.

    The where abouts of the Bush Procecuters ... are known.

    The Faces of the Bush Procecuters ... are known.

    These ARE the Perps!

    Justice ... will visit them ... each and every one ... in the ... Night.

    "Character ... is what you are ... in the Night!"

  66. Subject by z-j-y · · Score: 1

    You need hard evidence. Common sense doesn't matter.

    Obama got a $300,000 deal on his house. Doesn't mean he is guilty of corruption. Common sense doesn't matter. You need hard evidence.

  67. We are all right by symbolset · · Score: 1

    We have build an elaborate system of punishments and rewards to heard ourselves though life like cattle.

    I wrote:

    "An it harm none do what you will" shall be the whole of the law.

    The words aren't mine and they're not new as the obsolete use of "an" for "if" would lead one to infer. The idea itself tracks back at least to BCE Greece. Aleister Crowley in his work left out the "An it harm none" part, because that's the way he was. He had his fans, but I disagree with his omission. Despite AC's assertion, the idea has been tried many times as public policy and succeeded for far longer than the experimental federal republic that I live in. Generally speaking the failures have been from failure to provide for the common defense. As a point of philosophy one might assert that a decision to neglect the common defense in the context of "do what you will" is a decision to submit to a foreign aggressor and so abandon the system for another - which doesn't invalidate the system.

    Nevertheless, the AC is socially right and personally wrong. The common man is a crowd distracted by fireworks and glitter and he needs the comfort of a shepherd and myriad inconsistent rules to make him uncertain of the correct course and so submit readily to charismatic leadership. He prefers forceful misdirection so he can go wrong with confidence. For individual free thinking Men, there are only three rules. That quote is one. Another is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." The third is "Survive." I've put them in reverse order of precedence.

    Lifting up the average man to self awareness, personal responsibility and healthy skepticism is an Herculean task. As for me, you're welcome to it.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:We are all right by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      I figure that as long as I live out my ideals, other people may see it and give it a try. I can't fathom why a man would choose to live like a child or an animal their whole life if they really knew there is an alternative. On the other hand, the power of denial is strong and people have an aversion to change. At the very least, I will thrive (until they kill me, but it's better than being dead from the start as they are).

  68. History ::Doom by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Forget::Repeat

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  69. Ultimately Rule 1 wins out by symbolset · · Score: 1

    The best thing you can do to promote your ideals is outlive the opponents of them. The next best thing is to die well. Either way it goes, good luck to you.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  70. RE: Palin 1st on Teddies Hit List! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sarah Palin's days are numbered!

    Yet again, Palin serves to remind Humanity the World Over that she is "The" Bowl Bloakage ... and nothing more.

    What a waste! What refuse! What a "Pity ... Pity!" .. pity.