Slashdot Mirror
Getting Paid Fairly When Job Responsibilities Spiral?
greymond writes "I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter. With budget cuts and layoffs I ended up also taking over the website facilitation for three of the company's websites (they let go of the current webmaster). During this time the company has been developing a new website and I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date. Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup. While it's been years since I worked this much with Linux I'm picking it up and moving things along. Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this? Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT."
In this economy, You are pretty replaceble, according to what you say your skills are. So you are behind the eightball.
I was in the same spot, hired as a web content person, next thing I knew I was IT manager for the corporation doing PC support, hands-on sever, PBX, twisted pair, web development and CSM rec, integration and more. I was working 60-80 a week and after 6 months I got a "good job" and no raise, another 2 months and I had to ask for a raise. I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later. They has to hired 2 people to replace me.
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
You are the owner of a company called you. You are experiencing feature creep from your main and only client, your employer. Assuming you are still responsible for what you were originally hired for, you need to point out that you are now being asked to do a lot more than you originally signed on to do, and that you need to reach a new understanding that will work for both of you.
Be professional. Be firm. You might want to read some back blogs by Bob Lewis, as he covers this kind of stuff all the time.
A couple of examples
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/when-raises-dry-negotiate-hard-get-what-you-deserve-404
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/be-your-own-boss-even-if-you-have-boss-037
My brain is overly lubricated
Then tell them "More money or I go. Yes, I know that I'm basically what the whole thing hangs on. I'm your project manager, your web monkey, your server manager, your everything, basically. So, let's discuss my payment, title and other job perks".
But phrase it nicely. Managers don't like to have a dagger at their throat. Even if they basically handed it to you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Amnesia? Do you recall what a LAMP is for? I think they are used to shine light on the book I'm reading.
Tell them you aren't happy with the changes and that you'd like a normal work week in the job you were hired. Be prepared if they elect to have a different idea, so hopefully, you've saved 12 months of living expenses.
You don't want to work at a place that fires people for standing up for their needs as humans.
You need to not work all the time.
You need to have a family life and life outside work.
You need to be fairly compensated for your skills and work. Anything above the original deal (offer letter) is a chance for re-negotiation, which you are happy to entertain.
That greener grass over the fence is better than being an over worked ox.
Dust off your resume and start updating it. You probably won't get more money or a new title unless you threaten to leave. At that point, they'll look to replace you anyway, so you might as well find a new job.
My Sysadmin Blog
How long have you worked there?
What's your education level (do you have a degree)?
How is your relationship with your boss?
Do you have another job offer you could use as leverage
I don't know why the first post above got modded zero because unfortunately the AC is correct. Its nothing personal.
If they can't afford to complete projects then it is very likely they can't afford to give you a raise. Then again you are essentially exceeding your job description. If they hired you to write and then asked you to also edit other articles, that's one thing but they're asking you to take on a whole other role in a different department. I am curious though, how much does a writer for a blog site pull down?
Umm, yeah... I'm going to need you to come in on Saturday.
You and your client need web servers to launch the site. It's as simple as that. Tell them that if they can't afford cloud-based hosting, the alternative is a local solution that YOU (or whoever you hire) will be fully responsible for, from software maintenance all the way down to help desk support. Make sure they know that this is MUCH more expensive (because you WILL charge them accordingly for this, right?) and is not recommended (because I hope you value your time).
If I'm reading the problem right, I find it very irresponsible that the client went ahead with a website redesign project without thinking this far ahead. I hope they didn't rely on you to provide everything, because that definitely tells me they were looking for someone to abuse.
Either way, you need to be confident and ask for what you want. At this point and with this predicament, it would be more expensive and less wise for them to find some cheaper, so you have the leeway to do this.
I speak for the rest of us freelancers when I wish you good luck in getting it done!
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street.
1 month to launch? Sure, no problem, we'll give you a 10k per year raise.
And then we'll show you the exit a week or two after launch.
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
You don't seem to understand how modern "capitalism" works. When your boss said "we don't have the budget," he meant exactly that. If you push for more money, or even just ask, if they're really antsy, you'll be filing for unemployment.
Company hires person in low-to-moderately paid job. Responsibilities and workload increase. Salary does not rise to certified-external-hire level. Details to follow.
Basically, this is what happens regularly.
Now, where to go depends on how you assess your position.
Firstly, does the company tend to give people promotions and raises informally, kind of like a surprise, or is it a structured process? Both can happen, but companies mostly only prefer one.
In the former case, there's a 1/3 chance it's coming and they want to see how you handle things - in this case you could drop some very small hints. It's a 1/3 chance they have forgotten about it - in this case you could drop some very small hints, and you might get it. It's a 1/3 chance they simply don't care.
If it's a structured process, you are obviously not getting it without banging the table.
Because your odds are slim, let's consider banging the table. If you do this, you should be very aware that it COULD lead to you not working there any more. In the eyes of the bosses that be, you used to do one job (marketing and writing) and you are doing less of that and more of another, which does not qualify in itself for a raise. So consider - how employable are you? How easily could you get a job if you needed one? If the answer is "pretty good" and "pretty sure", then that's great. I should point out though that online content producers are usually 15 a dozen (in my view) and what you can hire interns for cheap as chips - so if you MUST move, could you find another job doing that at your current salary? To be honest, 'writing articles for a webpage and setting up facebook and twitter' sounds a bit weak for a full-time well-paid job if it's a small company.
You could also ask for an agreement that you will do ONLY this from IT and then no more IT tasks. But in that case you also risk not working there any more - because there might be a reason you have been asked to do more IT instead of articles. If they tell you "well, we didn't like your articles to be honest, but we feel you can add value doing IT", would that crush you completely? Would you be able to face them again?
Lastly, you could ask for a title upgrade only. This is the safest bet. What you decide for the title would A) let you find a better job elsewhere than you otherwise could, B) let you influence somewhat the path (e.g. the title 'Head of IT developments' may land you interviews for other jobs than 'Online Production Manager' C) your title itself should act subtly to influence whether you get more or less marketing/IT tasks going forward.
So the answer is, it very much depends on the details that only you know.
If you have a some kind of a periodic performance review coming up (you do have those?) that would be a good time, but there is nothing wrong with just walking up to your boss and asking for a raise. Be professional and realistic about it, after all whatever the answer is you'll still be working there so you don't want to be hostile. Understand that your relationship with your employer is just about supply and demand, nothing personal. If they can pay you less or else replace you with an equally qualified person at a lower cost they should, and they will. If you can find another employer who will offer you a higher salary, you should etc. I remember during the dot com boom, I could practically change my job monthly and get a higher salary each time. In this economy though, they are probably in a stronger position than you.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
First of all, you have to meet your bosses realizing that there are pretty good odds that you will walk out of that door without a job. After all, if you don't want to lose your job then you are in no position to demand a better deal and let's face it, if they are firing people left and right of you then they surely don't intend to keep you for long.
Knowing that, the scenario you painted leads to believe that your bosses rely on you to pretty much do everything remotely related to a computer. That, along with the fact that they have fired pretty much everyone capable of doing what you do, indicates that you do have a decent bargaining power. After all, if they fire you then they will be left with no one to man the ship and good luck finding another poor bastard that is willing to do all that work while being down on the corporate totem pole and while being paid your salary.
Based on that, just be straight forward with your demands. Inform your boss that, based on your new responsibilities and roles, you would like to get a raise and a promotion. Expect your boss to shovel a hefty load of crap when he turns down your offer. If he doesn't budge then just tell him that you quit and therefore let him a) reconsider your demands or b) start looking for yet another poor bastard to dump your work on, which will never manage to do as he will be even more overloaded than you, or b) see his pet project grind to a halt at least for the next 2 to 3 weeks, while he desperately tries to find someone who is willing to be paid peanuts while shouldering all that work.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
I've been in this situation more than once. Each time it happened I worked with my direct manager to figure out the best solution whether that was a higher salary, better benefits (vacation, flex hours, compressed work week), or other, more ephemeral, perks like a new job title. Of the 6 times I was in this situation, 3 of which were at one company, I only walked once.
However, in order to be able to walk that meant I always had an escape plan. Even when I was elated about a job and would go home floating on cloud 9 there were always options in the back of my mind of where I would go. I continued to job hunt: sending out my resume, talking to HR at another company, or networking with friends in the industry at least once a week. Plus, even when my budget was tight, by force of will alone I kept an emergency fund that would let me float for a while without racking up my credit cards.
Never let yourself get in a place where a company, or anyone for that matter, can take advantage of you without recourse.
-- You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
The BEST outcome is that you talk to your manager, explain what's happened, he agrees, and migrates your pay to be more role-appropriate. However, the chance of that happening is VERY low. A company that would respond well to that would also have migrated your pay along with your responsibilities.
Have you heard of a BATNA before? Its called a "Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement". Basically, if your negotiations fail, what do you do? You only have two options: 1) continue the job; 2) find another job/quit. You need to know which of those is your strategy. From there, start playing the game.
Here's what I'd suggest:
* Don't document anything. Obfuscate all the stuff. Don't write down passwords. Yes, it sounds dickish, and I wouldn't have said this a few years ago. My tune has changed.
* Hold them hostage. Another posted suggested bringing this up when they're a reasonable distance out from the launch date, but still committed to the path. Excellent advice. If you wait until launch+1 day, you've lost your negotiating position.
* Ask your manager to prioritize things. Managers hate doing that because it makes them make a decision. Write down all the tasks, and always say, "which needs to be done first?"
* Leave at 5pm. Just stop what you're doing, get up, and walk out.
* Be prepared to walk. Offer to come back 1099. You'd be surprised how many companies do this.
* Offer to split your job: W2 is your marketing job, 1099 is your outside work. Know the difference in pay rates and times.
Keep in mind its the company's job to hire the best people at the lowest wage--your goals and their goals are counter to each other.
They will fuck you over the first chance they get (as if they haven't already). Its your job to defend yourself in both hours and time.
Good luck.
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
Wrong thing to say to this crowd. Although, honestly, I completely agree with the sentiment and feel that you'll probably be better off in the long run if you do that.
And another bit of advice: don't even think of trying the pseudo-blackmail suggestions that have been modded up so far. You'll find yourself out of work before you know it.
This guy's the limit!
I'd find a new job and negotiate a higher salary, then turn in my 2 weeks notice. If you want to accept the probable counter-offer you can, but don't be surprised if it's not forthcoming in this day and age.
No matter how important YOU think you are, it's their opinion of you that matters where wages are concerned.
- real hackers don't have sigs -
Being employed is not a case of "you're the begger, they're the chooser" They require a service, you're providing that service. If they require more out of you, then they're going to have to give some more. It works well for them if all their employees believe that the employer is the one with all the power. But they need you more than you need them. Without employees, the company will fail. Make them realize they need you, if they're really putting as much responsibility on you as you say, then they do need you.
If it rhymes it must be true.
It seems that ever since this "Great Recession / Depression" started that a lot of things have changed.
Our Fearless Leader has been trying to convince us it's all over now, but the EU would no doubt disagree!
The outlook for Corporations has improved though and some are hiring key people they can find now for some slots (but pay is not too good).
For most though, they have learned they can make a lot of money without their former staffing.
So individuals are doing more, often much much more for the same or less money. Grab a better position if you can, but it might be tough to get the next one. DO NOT do what a friend did and quit before securing the next position. Several of my Professional friends have been out for about 2 years now. I can't understand how they are surviving!
I was quite fortunate to find an Engineering position right at the start of the Recession and have held it.
It's a great position - great work, learning many skills and much programming.
After putting in the required long hours, I actually received commendations for my efforts.
I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
It was eye opening and after reflection, I consider myself quite lucky.
The #1 Goal of ALL Corporations is to maximize profits. Why wouldn't they take full advantage of the current employment situation?
Move on to another company.
If your current company hasn't increased your compensation to match your duties and responsibilities, they never will. Given they are reducing operating costs, they may just say "goodbye" when you ask for more money.
-
Good luck.
Do some research and get good estimates of what people doing your job(s) in the area earn. Figure out how much you are worth based on how much time you spend doing each of these jobs and sit down with the person who has the power to give you the raise you deserve and present your case. You'd be surprised how willing most bosses are to give you a small bump to keep you happy, especially if they know you are being overworked. On the other hand, if this company is going through budget cuts and layoffs and can't afford to hire the right people for the job, you might be better off keeping your mouth shut, updating your resume, and shopping for a new job.
A few years ago, I started a new job -- I was hired to do a small task, expected to take 6 to 12 months (government contracting). At the time, I had been unemployed for 7 months, and so had taken a lower pay rate, thinking it was an easy job, and I'd use the tuition benefits to continue work on my master's degree.
My second day on the job, someone quit and I got handed his task. My third day on the job, in a meeting w/ HR for the company, I was told that if my job changed significantly, they could get me a promotion. I told her that it had already happened. She must've thought I was joking as *nothing* was done about it.
Every couple of months, I brought it up with my manager. (mind you, my manager didn't deal with my tasking -- it's government contracting, so the ATR (civil servant) tells me what to do, my manager only dealt with making sure we were complying with contract requirements and HR issues). I had meetings with my manager's boss, and I think at one time even his boss. It was nothing but a run-around.
They told me they couldn't do anything 'til the annual raises. When I got a 7% raise and bitched, they acted like I should be grateful. I stayed on as I knew the contract was up for rebid. (and told my manager and ATR that if the company I worked for won, I was quitting). It dragged on something like an extra 6 months because of one of the losing companies bitching that it was unfairly awarded.
Of course, the sub-contractor that I was passed off to said they didn't want to re-negotiate anyone's pay, and it took my ATR and manger (now working for the new prime contractor) telling them that they needed to make an exception for me, and that I should get a 20-25% raise.
Because of my being difficult, I got less than a 20% raise (they had said they wouldn't hire me unless I gave them a paystub, but I had blacked out all of the amounts that could've been used to calculate my pay rate ... I missed the 'year to date' amount, and they didn't know I had gotten a raise 2 months before, so they had thought they were offering me a 22.5% raise.)
In the end -- it was 2 years to get the issue resolved. If I hadn't switched companies, I don't think it would've gotten changed, as L-3 Communications was absolute dicks to me on the issue the whole time.
So, the moral of the story -- if you approach them, and they don't do something about it quickly -- walk. Well, line up a new job first -- if they start giving excuses as to why they can't do anything, start looking for a new job, as it's a sign they don't care.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Take a few hours to basically put together a report of how long all this is going to take and over estimate. Overestimating is important here. When you explain this to your boss, don't say I can't do blah, say this is what I can do. They may ask for more, say that's impossible. When they push, and they will, give them a little, just enough to cut into your overestimate then hope they take it. If they push and try to make you do 60-80 hours, you are fucked. Dust up your resume. But if they accept your logic and push the schedule or hire someone then logic wins.
Your company is fucked right now. They somehow got into a situation where they need to meet a goal without proper resources. So they are trying to squeeze you for all they can and you let them. The above is what you should have done originally. Now that they saddled you with this they are glig to blame failures on you. You always need to know what you can and can't do. They have no money to fulfill your requests but if you push back politely you might find something. However I doubt this. If they were good managers they wouldn't be in this situation.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Sounds to me they've already dumped some "important" people to let someone unqualified (no offense intended, but that's how it seems) do the job. I doubt they'd be too troubled about doing it again. It's true you might be able to get a little extra if you demand it right before a deadline, but you'll also end up out of a job right after the deadline, so I wouldn't suggest that. Your best option is to do your homework, then tactfully broach the subject. By doing your homework, I mean find out how much someone doing your job can expect to make at similar jobs in your area. That gives you justification for why you should be paid more. You could also put out some feelers about whether there are jobs available; but be careful, because your company might not want to keep you if they think you're going to leave. Anyway, once you've done that, approach them with an attitude of "we need to renegotiate my contract." This is important. You do not want to simply state that they need to pay you more; that would make them defensive. You also shouldn't approach it like you're begging for money, because then you're putting the decision entirely in their hands. Instead, come with a list of changes you'd be interested in seeing: title, money, underlings, etc. Much like buying a car, you want to aim a little better than you expect to get, so you've got room to haggle. Be firm but not aggressive or offensive; remember that you are selling a valuable commodity. If you do this right you can earn their respect and make them feel you deserve more; and you'll probably get both a small to medium raise and a better title.
Look if they do not have enough money to employ a proper admin it is time to cut and run.
Got Code?
Blah blah blah. That's what I just read.
1. Float some resumes.
2. Call out sick when in interviews
3. Pick the new job you like. Haven't made it to step 3? Stop bitching.
Life isn't that hard.
I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter.
Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup.
This is where you tell them, "gee, that LAMP sounds like fun... As a writer, while I seem to be ok at some of this ad hoc project management, I really don't know the first thing about setting up a linux whatever server. Do you think I could get some training?"
If they are simply demanding that you figure it out and get it done. Just do your best while updating your resume and finding a new job. A company that plays this game will never give you a raise. In their eyes, the mere fact that you could take on more work, while getting your original work done, means you were being overpaid to begin with.
Ask Slashdot: Where bad ideas meet poor googling skills.
Sounds easy, but sometimes it can be hard.
Ask for it. If some BS answer comes up, tell them, that they are saving on others' salaries, and that saving could benefit the ones taking over extras.
Either way, if you cannot ask for a raise for more work at a company, what kind of future are you expecting there? I guess you do not want to retire from there, because you would be making the same $$ in a management role with a title that does not match.
Of course, if you are feeding a family where jobs are scarce, you should just suck it up and wait for something better.
However, asking for a raise is not a bad thing in the eyes of most management, if they know you work a lot and do it well.
Just my 2c.....
First, do you enjoy working there? Second, do you see this as a place you would like to work for the long term (say greater than 5 years).I think that these answers will dictate your action.
If the answer to both is no then you should immediately brush up your resume and find another job.
If you answered yes, then you should document your situation. Be sure to compare what you were hired for and what you are currently doing. Also include the hours required to complete the tasks in your expanded scope. If everyone there is working 50-60 hours on salary you will not get much sympathy for the extra hours. When everything is in place go to your manager or boss and be sure that he/she understands how much your job has changed. Presumably everything your are doing is important to the companies current goals. Asking for "mo money" is up to you but don't demand unless you have a secondary plan (such as a nest egg or other job offer). You will actually be doing a sales presentation as to why your job is worth more to the company. Done correctly the manager will get the hint without directly asking for a salary increase.
Sometimes one has to pay dues to reap the benefits later. You will have to assess, based on your managers response, as to what those future benefits could be and how the situation might change. This approach will give you and the company time to sort it out; give it a month or whatever you are comfortable with. You always have the option of deciding the answer to the above questions is no and at that time you can begin your job search in earnest.
This is the most basic part of being employed. You walk into your manager's office, close the door, point out how many new, important, and unwanted responsibilities you now have.
How confrontational you want to get is up to you, and largely depends on how willing you are to quit. You can take the soft approach, and just say you think a raise is in order, or else you'd prefer to relinquish your new duties, and sit quietly, hoping he comes back with a reasonable figure. Alternatively, if it's worth playing chicken with your job, you can name a figure, and be intractable when he tries to say how little money they have, and names some lower figure instead.
Personally, I'm a bit more of a pain in the ass... I don't believe in arm-twisting my employer every time they should be doing the right thing. If they can't figure out I've done a hell of a lot for them, and compensate me appropriately, I'm finding another job ASAP, and giving my two weeks' notice. Of course that invariably results in a counter-offer, but I simply turn them down flat, since they've shown their lack of respect for me every day up to that point. They're probably just looking to keep me on for a couple months, until they can find and train someone a bit cheaper, and then fire me without warning. Continuing to work for an employer who isn't doing good by you, without having to be asked (or threatened) constantly, is idiotic.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking openly and honestly about your career path with your boss. It's practically the #1 thing he's there for. The text goes something like this: "I took this job because I believe in the company and want to help it accomplish its goals. I come to work every day ready to do whatever it takes to help the company achieve these goals, and can point to all these responsibilities that are far outside my job description to back that claim up. I will be honest with you, though, I took the job I did because working in IT is not my passion. It's not what drives me. When I was working in IT I felt frustrated and unfulfilled. I still believe in the company and still want to help, but I need your help. I need you to show me what my career path looks like from here. Where is all this work taking me?" There are some general answers to expect: The company will get the resources on this timeline. If that's the case, you can point out that they should report to you. You can also make a point of asking on a weekly or monthly basis how the company's plan is proceeding. You might get a response that basically says "I can't show you a path." That's a very honest thing to be told, and the sign of a great manager. That's his way of saying "If I were you, I'd find another job." That's not his fault, it's almost certainly a decision being made above his pay grade. You might get a response that says that they need your technical skills a lot more than your human skills. This usually leads to a frank talk about what the compensation package would generally look like if you went this way. If it's good, then you're being offered a lot of money for a job you'll hate. If not, then the best answer for all parties is for you to find another job, and possibly help them find someone with a real passion for IT to replace you. It's also worth thinking for a bit ... does the company have a CTO? Does it need one? Do you have what it takes to be that CTO? Also, how much do you trust this company to repay your hard work? How much visibility do higher-ups have into your situation?
Don't threaten and stay positive even if you are heading out. Honestly helps as long as you are being honest about positive things - what you want, what the company needs, what the company can offer.
I think I recognize this story, most likely they got other people that can be an Online Content Producer but probably no one to be their web/IT-guru. So you get squeezed into that role, but do you know what happens when the times get better? They hire more writers and you don't get to return because you're the one that knows all the systems and everything. Trust me there's always some immediate concern which means they need you and your institutional knowledge even though they say it's only temporary. The part I'm not so sure of is whether you'd just like better recognition and pay for it, or if it's that you don't want to do it, because you got limited playing room and can't pursue both at once.
If you want to move up, at the very least go to your boss and say that with all the responsibility you're taking you'd like a better title, but then you're pretty much branding yourself in the direction you say you don't want to go. If you really want to be a writer, then maybe having that on your CV isn't such a bad thing even if you did lots of other non-writing activity? Wait for the economy to get a little better then get a job that actually matches your job description. I don't think being a little honest with your employer hurts either, that yes you can manage the job but this is not the sort of work that makes you happy. Managers with a clue will understand what this means, you have the professional ethics to do it but you'll be leaving for another position if this goes on. And even if you have a bad manager, they don't like to cut important staff either because normally during a downturn they don't get to rehire, so lots of headache for them making things go round. Except the even more irrational ones, but then you probably don't want to work there anyway...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I don't understand why you'd even consider staying at a company that seems to be going down the gutter anyway...
You seem to be a valuable employee; if it shined through on Slashdot it'll shine through in your resume and interviews. The economy's not THAT bad, start sending out your resume because this job isn't going lead you anywhere good.
Download free e-books, lectures, and tutorials at bookgoldmine.com
Everyone has job responsibilities that exceed their original job description. Your choices are to either wait for your annual review and ensure that you get recognized/rewarded or to look for a new job. If you start asking for a raise, don't be surprised if you find yourself out of a job. If choose to look for a new job, your resume will be a bit beefier. Tread lightly.
At least from my experience there is no real easy path. Every significant pay raise I've gotten has been because I've applied for and accepted a new job. Sometimes with the same company and sometimes with another. The most bizarre was the transition from my previous position to my current one. Basically I wanted a 20% raise because I was being significantly underpaid. The only way for me to get it was to apply for another roughly equivalent job at the same organization, stop all work on the projects I was doing, and start working on entirely new projects. I was hired into the new job and got my raise, but the organization had to replace me and ended up paying the new guy what I was asking for anyway. The kicker is that he more or less ended up starting over from scratch and a years worth of work was thrown away. No one batted an eye at any of it though. These days it just seems to be the way things are done. If you want to advance you have to keep moving and not stay anywhere too long. Perhaps some day I'll find a place where they want to keep employees and find ways to let them advance in a saner manner, but I haven't found it yet.
After asking for a raise and being refused, go look for a new job describing your current skills. When you find one, ask for what you think you are worth. You will likely get close to it. Take the offer back to your current company and see if they will match it. They would be idiots to not match it, but they will probably be idiots.
The job market is expanding at this point. Go for it.
RLH
The only way I've ever managed to get a proportional raise was to get a new job. Companies don't like to give out raises, and prefer to hire someone for more rather than promote from within. It's ass-backwards, but that's the way the world works.
First you give a long list of add-on responsibilities you got because the company doesn't have any money. Then you ask us how to get more money. The question answers itself, really.
Yes, it's not fair. Yes, it would be stupid of them not to do their best to hang onto you, now that so much is dependent on you. So what? Tech companies, especially tech companies in trouble, are not known for their fairness or smarts. No matter how you go about asking, there can be only one answer: "the money's just not there."
Not that it matters. This company is clearly circling the drain.
Just leave. A company that pulls this stuff is the typical short-sighted, narrow-minded organization that wants one person to manage their websites, support, network, database, and everything. It's never worth it to deal with idiots like this. Let me guess, it's a small company right? Probably family-owned? Your boss is probably a nephew/son/brother of the owner, right?
You can't win a situation like this. The company has already proven that it can't value talent, and doesn't care about employees because they shovel about 5 or 6 different jobs on one guy, without compensating him appropriately. This kind of bullshit only happens in IT; you'd never see someone try to get their Accounting department to also do Sales, or Marketing to do HR. But in IT, people are so clueless that they will hire one person to be a programmer/dba/sysadmin/helpdesk and pay them the lowest salary of all the jobs combined. Or, worse, they'll advertise for an "IT Manager" or "Director of Technology" and then you find out that you're the only person in the department and you're responsible for everything.
This is a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.
Listen to the folks telling you to slow down and prioritize. Have a friendly talk with your boss about a promotion to go with the new responsibilities. Ask for help (even if you do not need it) from your boss prioritizing your responsibilities so you can get the most important things done in your 40 hours... this discussion will accomplish several things: your boss will understand exactly what and how much you have on your plate, you make it clear working more than 40 hours long-term is not desirable, hopefully some of your shit tasks get delegated elsewhere, and finally, you get some important satisfaction knowing you are making an effort to get control of the situation. Frankly, it sounds like you are on a sinking ship. If so, make a plan to get off the boat voluntarily.
If the situation does not improve, this is headed a very ugly direction. Stress can destroy your health, and burnout can last for years (perhaps a lifetime). I don't have words to describe how painful and destructive stress and burnout really are. Just take my word for it: Don't go there.
I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date.
...
Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this?
You have been in the role of PM, so you got to have enough people skill by now, why don't you "just" go ahead and really ask your boss for more money? Of course, I understand it is more than "just" go and ask, you need to be prepared, that's where the 2nd part comes in: always keep an eye out for another job.
Without keeping an eye on the job market, you wouldn't know how much you can get from another job. "Keeping an eye out" doesn't mean you apply for any job that looks like a match, but you need to know what people pay for someone doing what you have been/are doing now.
Equipped with knowledge of the market, you can honestly and confidently approach your boss and say "I have been doing role X for the past Y months and it seems I will continue to do so in the near future. I think it would be best if my job title and compensation would be adjusted accordingly. I understand that in the market, role X usually pays around $XXX-XXX. It would be acceptable to me if my pay is adjusted to similar levels."
If your boss say no, accept gracefully and end the meeting, no need to argue. DON'T play any tricks or sabotage your work. Do your job as you always had, that's what being "professional" is about. BUT actively seek another job immediately, and make no fuss about it. When you found another job that pays what you want, jump ship ASAP without regrets. Don't waste time with your current boss even if he offers to pay more now, he has just proven to you that he won't be giving you any raise unless you leave, you wouldn't want to do that again in 2-3 years' time.
What if you are unable to find another job that pays what you want? That means you really are asking too much. Either reduce what you have asking for, or accept your current job with the understanding you are not underpaid.
Whatever outcome, you will have no need to resent your situation anymore. That will be good.
Oliver.
He's spot on. He could have phrased it more delicately, but honestly you could use a little shaking up.
That's what your job has evolved into, and that is the pay. Arm twisting will accomplish nothing for you except a quick trip to the street. They're broke. You've already said so. That's why they're laying off all the people you've replaced and have no budget for staff.
You try to go oil drilling with these guys and you won't get a thing except a fresh new bullseye on your back.
My advice? Talk them into a title change only. Emphasize you're not digging for a raise, but you'd like something to reflect your new duties. Get your new impressive title, then bust ass for the next 3 months to get settled in with your new title. Then get your ass to careerbuilder and craigslist and use your new fancy title to negotiate a better job. These guys are garden variety passive aggressives PHBs that will continue to dump on you until you break. Ditch them.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Don't go for more money, go for a better title. Vp of something. How can they deny it? Does not make sense. This will make you better suited to find another job and they will know it and will likely pay you more money when they can afford to.
However, if you do not want to do IT then you should just find another job.
I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
This is a pretty common thing for managers to do. Give you the minimum they think you'll accept, and say they went to the mat "for you". Right. It *might* be true, but I seriously doubt it.
You're not alone, fair or not, all companies expect employees to continually improve productivity. The ones that do are retained, those that can't are not. The job market is cut-throat, out-perform your peers, keep your skills sharp, and make sure your resume is up to date and being seen.
Understand it and plan for it.
Keep your resume up-to-date and USE it. Shop yourself around at least every year to see what you're really worth and what job skills you should be working on.
The good thing about situations like that is that they look GREAT on your resume. Just work on the narrative and explain how you took on more responsibilities as the needs of your employer changed.
You need to read Scott Adams' "The Joy of Work." If you really want to write articles and be in Marketing don't volunteer to do IT stuff. Clearly, your strategy of "quick and courteous service" (see page 40) is not working out for you.
- Things are the way they are because they're coded that way -
One of the big problems in the job market right now is the flood of talent - well, people, some with talent some without.
This gives companies both big and small a high number of applicants to sort through in resume and interview.
Unless you have some skill or ability to make your resume stand out, or know someone in a company that can give you an in via recommendation or referral, you become a number calculated by IMO the following in the order listed
(1) age and length of possible employment term - younger individuals in IT or related fields have a tendancy to hop to try and get more money at the next job - employers look for the long term more often than the short term unless it's a project
(2) financial requirements - salary, benefits, etc. all calculate into the end budget - people wonder why companies go through contractors - well, guess what, for a position paying $20 an hour and a contractor charging $30 an hour to supply labor, the company still saves between $10 and $30 per hour depending on the benefit package offered to a full-time employee
(3) skill set - notice this is last - hate to say it but the tech bubble over the past decade accompanied by numerous people who "play" at home with systems and networks including domain level managed by MS and Linux servers offers companies a choice now which really was never in the market place before - do we pay more for someone with work experience, or do we pay less for someone who knows what they're doing but doesn't have the resume to show it - the deciding point there is the size of the company as smaller companies are willing to take a risk on someone with less job history but knowledge since they do not have as many standardized requirements to meet and can allow changes in their systems to meet the skill set of a new IT employee
The real point in the whole situation is your statement "I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT". Speaking from personal experience, some IT professionals don't mind the extra responsibilites and workload - we're nuts to begin with since we enjoy working with computers...:-)...so going at a challenge which may take extra hours in a week is not something we turn away from because we enjoy what we're doing every day. Bosses sometimes expect if you are perofrming IT duties you wouldn't mind doing more because of this outlook in the market - or they are IT idiots who don't realize the amount of work some systems take to implient or maintain.
If you aren't having fun or look forward to the end of your day so you can get out of the office, either talk to your boss(es) and explain you wouldn't mind helping but it's not really what you want to do. You could even - if inclined - map out an outline of what they are asking you to do including the number of hours a day/week you expect it to take. Create a separate outline of what you currently do for your regular position. Show them the hour total and explain what they are asking of you. If they don't listen, they don't care about and you shouldn't wait until the end of the day to leave the office.
Good luck!
Pay raises are hard to justify, but so is replacing someone who is doing a great job. The case to draw is the current load of work in comparison to a fair market value. Don't specifically seek more money, but maybe comp time for every hour over 48 hours you work in a week, with a pre-determined buy out price once per year if they don't want to have you take the vacation. How about a better parking space, company car, I even have heard of a telemarketing firm who hired a full time masseuse instead of pay raises one year, and everyone was happy with the new "value" their job was given. Unless what you need is more money, talk to them about the value of your current role, and what can be done to bring your title and compensation in-line with this position.
Learn to say "NO". Scale down your responsibilities. Be diplomatic about it. Basically every now and then ask your boss, "I have X, Y and Z on my plate but I only have time for two of the three. Which one do we want to drop, outsource, have someone else do?" That's how you get your life back—through careful budgeting and time management.
Face it, it's better to do a good job on two things than shitty job on three. This is probably the reason why you didn't get promoted—as a rule, people don't get promoted for doing shitty work.
Your task is to have enough diplomatic skill to explain this to your management without it reflecting negatively on you as a professional.
If you implicitly trust your boss and your employer to be fair, go to them and explain the situation, that you feel you're being taken advantage of, and ask how you can work together to address that.
If you have any lower level of trust, immediately start looking for work. When you find a new job and give notice, do NOT take an offer to stay on if they match the offer at your new job.
My last job, I was an 'indispensable man' keeping the tech end of a small company together. I did not in any way, shape, or form, trust the management or owners of the company. For various reasons, I decided it was time to move on, found a new job, and gave notice. They immediately offered to match what I would be making at the new job (a 30% raise over what I had been making). I declined politely, worked my two weeks and left. They hired my predecessor back, at the same salary I had left for, and gave another employee a large raise to stay... and then cut both their salaries by a third 6 weeks later.
Had I stayed, the same would have happened to me - I'd have given up what has turned out to be a dream job for me, in exchange for continuing to work for people I didn't trust, for pretty much the same money (once it was too late and the opportunity to move was gone).
Line up a job first. Then, talk with your direct managers about a pay raise/title change. Approach it as a "sale". Provide supporting data.
Your manager in turn needs to sale your "promotions" up the chain, so he/she need ammo.
I am not sure it is a good idea to mention you already have a job. The new job should at least already be comparable to what you have currently, so what's the point of bringing it up?
If your manager/company does not play ball,leave, but do it professionally.
Find another job. Anyone going in to major online content provision with minimal budget as described doesn't understand the problem.
Do not take this personally. You are someone doing a job. Yes, you think you should be paid fairly for that work, but the company will willingly pay you far less than you are worth, if you are willing. There are two ways to fix this: walk, or negotiate. Negotiating may end up forcing you out -- a lot depends on your attitude, and what are the actual intentions of the company. So if you have any interest in keeping the current job, make a plan B, which is figure out where you would go if the negotiation fails. Futhermore, interviewing elsewhere will let you know what you are actually worth on the open market. And who knows, you may find a job you like far better. Do not threaten. It's business. Also, you say: "With budget cuts and layoffs..." Um, your company may be imploding. Why do you want to stay there? Look around. Believe me, you do not want to stick to a ship that is sinking. I've been there and it is not pretty.
Join the window installer's union, where prosperity is a brick throw away!
Like it or not, right now employment is a "buyer's market." If you can find a more satisfying job with better pay then go for it, otherwise, one of the perks of working where you are working right now is that you aren't unemployed.
Perhaps if and when the economy improves you will be in a better position to negotiate in your favor.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
This is not what I see everywhere I go. At least in Germany: Do a shitty job. Else you chances of promotion are slim. The incompetenter you are the better.
I was in this position... and tried what you are thinking, ended up on unemployment line.... 3 months later found a new job with better pay, less responsibility. My 2 cents... ask for what you want, don't back down, be polite, and update your resume, and start shopping for a new spot. :p
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
If that's what you really want, then that's what you should be working toward. IT is a thankless, 24/7 routine where you do well if nothing happens; and since nothing happens there is sometimes a belief of some managers that you aren't really doing anything. Writing and working with marketing is far better in this aspect (and in many others.) Besides, if you become a reluctant IT guy you will eventually lose your writing skills; you won't be marketable for what you love to do, and you won't be a great IT guy either. You need experience in your chosen field if you want to develop professionally, and if you don't want a career in IT then don't go for it. If the company doesn't want you any more in the writing/marketing position then look for another job before it's too late.
Fight for the title bump, and let them keep the cash. The title bump helps when you're applying for the next job.
Your current employer appears to be having money problems, so they're not going to be able to give much of a raise. That's probably a lost cause unless they bring in more revenue.
I was in the unfortunate position to get acquired just before my first year when I should have gotten a raise. Immediately after that our company froze salary raises - for us at the bottom of the totem pole only, obviously. I've been working for 2 1/2 years without a raise not to mention the 3 months i spent as an intern (bitch). Recently during my year appraisal I brought the raise situation up and all my boss could say is "Yeah, two years and no raise is kind of a drag". I wanted to say, "More like two and a half full time, and three months interning puts me at almost three years". And the response I got was a sheepish lie saying "Well, yeah we've tried to ask upper management and until things get better we aren't doing any raises." Time to look for another job that's what that tells me. Since when does an entry level position become the person in charge of creating a release package that hundreds of customers have been paying thousands of dollars for??? I love the type of work that I do but if this is the type of bs I have to fight through I seriously might reconsider my line of work.
Boss: "Hey Joe, our old webmaster died/resigned/etc. Would you mind taking over for him?"
Joe: "Do I get paid more?"
You can take it from there, depending on the boss' answer.
If you need a resume then you're doing it wrong. Make a name for yourself and sell your name - the whole time you're employed. If your status changes from "unavailable" to "?" on your website, FB and Linkedin and you don't have a dozen offers of employment in 24 hours, then you've failed. If your friends in the industry keep touch many of them are checking to see if you're available now because really you're not that interesting but they get a spiff for bringing you in. If you're selling yourself properly then you're happy where you are and you still get 4-8 unconditional offers a year, and dozens of inquiries that might be. You can call around to your friends if you get desperate, but then you're in a weak position. All else is fluff.
You don't own the vanity web domain that is your name? You don't use it to advertise your self? So sad for you. What were you thinking? Maybe you don't belong in tech. That's a grand placement for a blog that shows off your achievements, your knowledge, your puissance, your value. I bought my name (though it's now a flat page and not a blog). Everybody I know did that. If you enter my proper name in Google, the first hit is the page I want you to see, and most of the entire rest of it is links to public sites where I aired my carefully considered forward thinking opinion - and a few hits are to a scary guy who shares my name but most obviously isn't me even though he lives near me (damn you FencePost!) I googled me just now, and that's how it is. Most of us did it several different ways. A domain is like ten bucks a year. Come on: if you can't invest that much in yourself, what's somebody going to think?
Hint: people are going to "Google" you before they offer you a job. The output associated with your name should be interesting, forward looking, and non-toxic. The Internet being what it is, you don't get to revoke output associated tightly with your name so if you're prone to stupid, racist, sexist or obscure arguments while posting sober or impaired, it's best if you use a pseudonym while doing that so you don't make yourself unemployable. It's probably best to have a general alt to use for your common activity, and post under your real name only in your most careful, sober and considered capacity. Unfortunately this guidance is far too late for me, but hopefully my strengths overcome my Internet shortcomings and my learning will educate others.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I have three friends who have successfully gone the route of starting with interviews and letting the rumors start. If you can secure an offer from another company for significantly more you can either jump ship or let your current place match the offer. One friend of mine got a pretty significant raise this way, after having to suffer with a pretty significant pay cut last year he's above his original salary then bump all of his coworkers up too. He wondered the point of the salary cuts, when the company gave in so quickly to pressure.
The only trick to it, is you have to be serious about taking the other offer. You must be in the mind set that you will walk away when deal doesn't meet your requirements, and it is important to think about what those requirements really are before you negotiate.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
sounds like what you really need to do is a realistic appraisal of if and when these guys are going into the toilet. you're still on board because you are willing and able to do the grunt work of what appears to be a grab for salvation by a shaky enterprise. even if you get an agreement for more money, it won't last long if things go south. try to quietly line up something else and go w/ a nice resume enhancing title(they'll probably see that as getting over on you so it may just fly). more money from a weak company in this economy is a non starter.
I'm in the same situation. That's what I'm doing.
"The incompetenter you are the better."
You must be the CEO?
There are plenty of really bad managers like mister myopic above. If his boss was any good and heard about it, it should mean instant firing and blackballing, because for a manager to fail his responsibilities (of finding and retaining the best people for the job he's tasked to make happen) this badly means we're dealing with an incompetent manager, and few things are more destructive to the company.
But such is not at all exclusive to IT. What makes it worse in IT, however, is that an awful lot of things happen "behind the scenes". It's a bit in the nature of the thing: If you do your job well everything goes without a hitch and since IT takes the form of supporting infrastructure, it's taken for granted.
I now have a "manager" of sorts, who cast my use of FreeBSD with X and an idiosyncratic choice for a WM for the desktop (allowed as a sign-on incentive by the owner/CEO) as failing social obligations in this small company. What he really was hinting at is that he's no idea what I'm doing with all those black background xterms and that this somehow was different from the white background application the rest of the php/css/html writers are using to do much the same thing. This somehow stands out despite the guy having no technical clue whatsoever. He is a pretty good salesman/customer care functionary/credit controller and has the good sense to double-check his promises before making them if he can. It's not a direct problem now but I'm keeping an eye on it and if it becomes one I'll be gone in an eyeblink.
But the point is that this not understanding also contributes to taking functioning IT infrastructure for granted, meaning that the people who make it happen don't get no respect because nobody notices their labours.
So, it behooves us to take up the slack where clueless management and brass are leaving it and report to them regularly that everything is fine and document very finely in language they can understand ("from a business perspective") just how much work it was that allowed this to be so. If you need to, you can add graphic explanations of what didn't happen, but would have had you not been there. Note that this is quite different from the usual "so many processes, so many records processed" tick box paperwork that perl was invented for to generate.
After establishing that, well, hopefully you have built a good relationship with the people who have paying authority and you can negotiate. Not necessairily Korben Dallas style, but negotiating is the name of the game. Harvard uni press has a couple good books on the theory, but for practice something like Jim Thomas' _Negotiate to Win_ is much more directly helpful.
I hope my story will serve as a cautionary tale. In 1995 I was hired as the junior person in a two-person IT department. My boss immediately began training me so I could cover for her during vacations and illnesses, and of course she covered for me.
In 2005 she left abruptly. Because her departure was unexpected I naturally began to do her job in addition to my own, just as I did when she took vacation. I also asked for a temporary salary bump to compensate me for the added responsibility, until either (a) I got a promotion to the senior position and someone was hired into the junion position, or (b) someone was hired to replace her. Because of our longevity we were both at the top of our grade in salary, but the bottom of her grade was above the top of mine, so a bump to the bottom of her grade would have meant an increase for me.
After six months of being rebuffed I concluded that they were happy with the status quo: they were getting what had historically been a two-person job at the price of one junior salary. I felt put upon, because I was no longer able to take vacation.
Here is where I made my mistake: I became obstinate, and declared that I would no longer do the jobs that had historically been the responsibility of the senior person. Within a week I was unemployed.
Be smarter than I was. There is some good advice in this thread, which I wish had been available to me.
I've seen some funny situations like this. Friend of mine was in a similar thing of they kept heaping on more work and refusing to raise his pay. They didn't lay him off, they just wouldn't pay him any more so he left. About 2 weeks later they were calling him, desperate. The new guy couldn't figure something out, the site was down, nothing was working, they were so screwed would he please, PLEASE come in and fix it? He literally laughed and said ok sure, for a couple grand up front. They said no, he hung up. They called him a few more times begging before finally, angrily, agreeing to pay a hefty consulting fee. He went in and fixed their problem and they tried to hand him a bunch more work and he said "Nope, see ya!"
They went out of business around a year later, due to I'm sure many other bad decisions.
It is silly to think employees will just take whatever you tell them to and should be happy for the privilege. No, the good ones will leave and will find other work. You can say "Well nobody is irreplaceable," and while that is a general global truth, it can be false in specific situations. You can find that someone you shuffle out was extremely important to your operation, and you cannot replace them in the time frame that is needed and for the price you can afford. As such part (or all) of your company may suffer performance wise or even fail.
New people are not immediately 100% productive, it takes time to learn systems (the more specialized the longer) and finding good people can be hard. In particular if you need someone who is willing to hit the ground running immediately, do a ton of work, etc you are usually talking a consultant and an expensive one at that, or a consulting firm and several consultants. You can spend a year's salary in a few weeks easy depending on what you need.
If you don't know the actual name of the product you are actually not the one getting an of the work done. Maybe you are simply tracking hours and resources, and have an over blown sense of importance about the work you are doing. When I started in this field we had to at least be able to spell the products we were working with. Sorry to flame bait, but I have 'worked for' and with many people like yourself that we have simply put up wIth because management knows that technical resources that can actually move the football forward don't need to waste their time with (especially if the company is resource constrained) tracking fields on a Gantt chart.
Old saying: if you have a broad back,there are a thousand people waiting to put a saddle on it. Start job hunting yesterday. Have some interviews, get some offers, go to your boss and tell him you will leave for a new job unless you get a decent raise and extra resources to do your job properly. Don't be nasty or demanding, just matter of fact. Remember, your company has NO loyalty to you, and you should have none to it. Your other option, if you don't mind being unemployed for awhile, is to go to your boss, politely tell him you want a raise and extra resources to do your job. If your request is denied, resign with 2 weeks notice immediately. If your boss then decides that you deserve the raise and resources, you could play some serious poker by increasing your demands. In other words, play hardball with these people. They will play it with you, so play it with them. Don't let them get the upper hand - ever. But you must be prepared to be fired or to resign and perhaps to be unemployed for a while. If you've got the financial resources, unemployment aint so bad! Good luck.
...one option might be to patent a work process that you have trying to juggle all these new duties, and then subsequently sue them for infringement when they replace you and attempt to have the poor shmuck do the job you had using your patented processes. Employers that ABUSE their workers in this way (and it IS abuse, don't kid yourselves) generally have no qualms about using your hard work to pad their pockets at someone else's expense.
Why should the media industry be the ONLY beneficiaries of a corrupted legal process?
Given your description of the situation, you won't get the money and you know you won't. You'll probably be fired, either on the spot or on the long term if you try to force it through. Ask for the better title, it comes for free for your employer. Once the economy improves your title will get you either better pay at your current employer or a better shot to get good employment elsewhere.
(1)
Every time your boss hands you some new responsibility ask him "which of my current responsibilities should I push to the bottom of my prioritized list so that I can take on this new responsibility?" Be persistent... he needs to provide an answer. Explain that you can only make a small number of tasks (1-3) your "top priority" and everything else will either get worked on sporadically or fall by the wayside entirely. Force him to prioritize... that's his job. Be sure to get this in writing (email).
(2)
Learn to tactfully say "no". I do this ALL THE TIME at my job. I explain that my primary duty is too important to the company for me to get distracted by some additional work. I simply refuse to be assigned the work. This only works if you are really good at your core duties and are not easily replaceable. It also help if you generate revenue. (Suck on that, developers).
(3)
Start looking RIGHT NOW for the job you really want. When you find it, drop this one like the stinking bag of shit it is. Life is too short to hate your job... you could get brain cancer next year and die within 18 months... why spend your time between now and then being miserable?
Unless you're lucky enough to have the dream boss, they are used to paying you $X and anything they pile on top is just part of what they perceive as part of your job. After all, it's just 40 hours a week, right? Even if it's not even 40 hours a week any more and the responsibilities are far more complex. You're trapped by perception.
So just use this to add to your resume and go looking for a new job. Asking for a raise once you have a new job offer is always bad. Even if you get one the well is completely poisoned. You could ask for a raise before you go looking for a job, but you run the risk they'll terminate you on the spot. That's your call.
I've worked for years in the ICT business, without getting serious compensation.
I've felt the evolution of "love ICT" to "like ICT" to "work in ICT" to almost "hate to work in ICT" ...
Maybe a good question is .. how to get rid of the stress, the burnout and the depression added to it?
The best advice I can give in this; don't wait to long to jump ships when it gets ackward or you'll be the victim of it.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
In corporations, the concept of 'team player' is a one-way street. It ultimately means 'yes-man' or 'slave'.
plane != plain
If his workload is this high, he's not replaceable. It's one reason why employers should see the sense in not overworking their employees: as soon as they retire/leave/break down they have to be replaced and the company WILL notice (if they don't then they didn't need to overload their employee and they'd still likely be working for them).
So, no, he's not pretty replaceable.
He's pretty replaceable by several others, but that is more expensive.
Mind you, this could be a way to avoid paying him redundancy when they really want to get rid of him.
And "do this or get fired" is too. And what was the first response to the question? "You're replaceable".
How come that one isn't blackmail?
next, find another job that pays atleast as much. have their letter of offer in your hand when you waltz into your managers office. In the current job market this is the ONLY way you will get traction. very few company's will give you a raise just to be fair. they will dump as much on you as they can until you say no or leave.
I had to do this at a few jobs, there's very little that stamping you feet will do in the way of convincing management that you are being under paid.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Bite your lip and get on with it. Keep a diary/portfolio of things you do. You've a fantastic opportunity here. Technical writer does sound like anybody IT literate could do it... but you're being offered the chance to prove you can do more. And the more professional jobs will demand to see proof of your doing such before they employ you.
So, when you've got a year of it under your belt, apply for a job you've now got demonstratable skills in.
Don't worry about asking for a title change... on your cv, remove any header specifically saying "TITLE:" or "POSITION HELD:", and just put the most appropriate "title" for the job you're applying for, so long as you've been doing it for the past year. It may infer that it was your title at the company, but hey, if you've got proof in your portfolio that you can do it, and actually can, who cares!
And then hey presto! More moolah, job satisfaction and a step up the ladder.
I even got a semi-decent salary: All I had to do was write a coherent letter de-constructing the duties described to job-roles... If the company is sticks to their guns on cheaping out - stay away.
Dear Sirs, I am responding to your advertisement seeking a technical expert. Your ad lists 24 required and desired skills. These skills imply that the person you are seeking is an expert in Cisco Routers, Windows System administration, database administration, and AIX. These positions pay X,Y;Z respectively (link to last years pay report).
If you are still reading at this point, your skill list looks like
*numbered list of skills from advertisement
I am able to do *whatver skills you are expert in* at an expert level, medium skills at a medium level, and the rest of that crap at a remote monkey level.
As I would love to work for your shitty ass company, & I can do the job of X - may I suggest it may make more sense for your company to hire several people to fill these responsibilities? An individual who can do all the positions listed will cost (sum of average salaries linked above x2) and will both cost your company more & create a larger single point of resource failure.
If you are interested in my services as an excellent (Whatever you think you would want to do at the company.)as part of an effecient IT team, please contact me at X
Meanwhile he pockets the other 3%.
you are the asshole that is preventing job growth... THANKS!
have you ever thought of saying, "I don't know how to do that?"
hahahahaahaaaaaa! hahahahahahahahahahahaha! HA!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
No, but seriously, good luck with that.
1. Most bosses would rather drop an employee rather than give in to demands. This is management 101 and why we need unions. So do not threaten anything and don't stop doing work.
2. Ask for training. It'll cost your boss and you'll learn something. But don't do it if you have to commit to a minimum contract term.
3. When you have learnt enough from your new role (but before you learn too many bad habits) start looking for another job. Then leave. Don't stay at your current job - they may offer you more money to stop you leaving but they will always see it as betrayal and kick you later on.
4. If your employer had any respect for you they would have automatically offered a promotion to you - they did not - so you should leave.
I used to work at a company that used to tell me that 'they aren't about roles or titles'. You would have a title so generic and understated that honestly no one could figure out what you do. I was able to leave this job for a 25% salary increase because my responsibilities never matched my title. Companies use this as a ploy so that they do not have to pay you in many cases what you are worth.
sounds like it to me!
Which is: "Don't let go of what you got ahold of until you get ahold of something else with the other hand."
Get another offer before even hinting that you want a raise. Then you're in a good negotiating position. Otherwise all you have is an empty threat to start looking, and you've clued them in to start looking for your replacement.
Nope, I am freelancer. Seen enough companies where the most incompetent had the highest positions. This cannot be coincidence.
So individuals are doing more, often much much more for the same or less money. Grab a better position if you can, but it might be tough to get the next one. DO NOT do what a friend did and quit before securing the next position. Several of my Professional friends have been out for about 2 years now. I can't understand how they are surviving!
They are probably on the government dole, like me. It's nice to sit back and let others pay my way. Fuck pride.
You said you would prefer to keep writing and marketing - so tell your company that. You need more money to do the job they have asked you to do and you dont want to do it without more money. Chances are if you ask for more money they will just replace you - you are not being asked to do anything specialist at all and everyone on Slashdot would likely be able to do what you are doing now in the IT side. For that reason you need to move back to what your company needs you most for, which is content, and stick at the same level of pay you are on now.
If you company is already laying people off then they dont have too much money floating around. If you ask for more, they might give it, or they might replace you.
So do what you want to do: write and market, and keep your wage the same, because thats stable and makes you slightly less easy to replace.
Still need a resume to get pass HR and all the other BS that blocks you from getting to real tech people at some jobs.
Forgive me if I sound biter. I was once like you. Here is my story and I hope it helps.
I have always been a fast learner, and have always been able to take on greater and greater responsibilities at companies. My employers have always loved me. But raises where always very hard to get (if ever) and I was always paid below what I knew I was worth.
The only way I was able to get what I wanted was to move to other companies, and eventually to contract development.
You might get a raise if you ask for more money, but on the odd chance that you get it, three things will happen:
1) They will feel that they are paying you appropriately for the 70h/wk you're working, even if they give you a very small raise
2) Whatever this raise is, you may consider it an advance on your next [n] raises. In other words, in two to five years, you will be back to what you would have made if you'd never gotten this raise in the first place.
3) They will likely start looking for someone less bothersome to fill your position, especially after the launch when they don't need the massive support hours, and you're now getting paid "too much" for the reduced effort, 50 hour weeks you'll have.
Again, there's a one in a million shot (okay, maybe one in 1,000) that you'll get a title, a pay bump, and if things pick up a new staff below you and you'll be headed for an ownership position or at least toward a spot in the senior staff. IMHO, I would make sure that you're in the market before you make the play.
FWIW, if you're really good, it's worth floating your resume on all the major employment boards. Many HR teams troll them to see if their employees are looking around. They may bring up the conversation first, at which point, you can simply state your concerns about the additional work. They may come around.
I know people for whom this has happened: a cousin was contacted by a headhunter, and ended up with a 25% raise - completely unsolicited, my brother in law was disappointed with the organization and lack of expertise in his dept, he floated his CV on monster and his dept head called him the next day. He was honest that they didn't have the expertise to perform their mission, and had good examples. They made him the group leader, moved staff to another area, and let him re-start the group.
Now, I'm going to lend a cautionary tale to this. I've had several employees over the years. Some have been disappointed with raises and/or salary offers. With two exceptions, I would have happily let them find other jobs. I have found that the top 5-8% of employees are truly independent. The next 30% are useful if carefully watched and managed. The rest do nothing more than provide CO2 to the plants and add heat to the building in the winter. Remember that, in the world of business, you are worth about 1/2 of the revenue you can GUARANTEE to produce EVERY YEAR (if you're in marketing or management, that drops to at most 5%, or half of a 10% "commission"). The rest of the revenue gets eaten up by G&A, mkt, overhead, taxes, and profit. If the last one in line - profit - doesn't stay significantly positive, then nothing else matters. Business isn't a jobs program. Personally, I give out bonuses twice a year based on production and profit. I'm too small to guarantee large fixed salaries.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'm used to being on the other side of the table. Here are a couple of things people need to understand:
I may be paying you all I can. In which case, there are all kinds of non-monetary things on the table. Days off, vacation, title, etc...
I'm going to ask you what I'd like you to do, and expect you to tell me what you need to do it. More money, someone to take over task X, etc... Tell me. Whatever I'm asking you to take over is probably as important or more important than task X.
Asking for more money isn't a firing level offense by itself. Lots of posts say asking for more money will get you fired. Not true. What will is asking for money and then telling coworkers, acting like you are on a one man strike, or not getting your job done to your usual level. Everyone wants more money. Management gets that. Asking for more money, then copping an attitude doesn't work.
Understand your golden handcuffs -- there's a reason business owners spring for health insurance, options, 401Ks with vesting, etc... If you have benefits that are worth more than your pay (i.e. wife with cancer on company health care or ownership options), don't be shocked when that is pointed out to you... and be very scared if you are not reminded. I had one guy with $28,000 in 401K matching up in six months tell me he'd quite if he didn't get the raise. Remember, sometimes you are worth more fired.
-- $G
The most elegant approach that I was able to devise was to ask for a new title and job description to reflect all of the new responsibilities. In my case the IT department was reduced by 50% and I absorbed a lot of my previous boss' responsibilities, in addition to responsibilities from other departments. By taking the initiative to ask for those things I let the HR department know that I knew I was doing a lot more than was in my job description, and I wasn't being officially recognized for it. HR departments are notoriously ambivalent about changing job titles because doing so is a tacit acknowledgement that the position needs to be compensated the market rate for whatever the job title is.
I believe that asking for a job title change is the most subtle, "safe" way to bring up the disparity of your situation with the rest of the organization. By doing that you get to ask what is probably really on your mind.. "Are you going to pay me what I'm really worth?" If they flat out deny you even a title change, you know you're completely replaceable, or at least HR believes you are. If you get a title change and new job description you are in a better position to ask for a raise next year to reflect your increased responsibilities, and your proven track record of meeting them. In my case, I was given a raise along with the title change.
If money is really important to you and you get a title change but no raise, the new title puts you in a better position to find a new job. When I was sorting things out with my company I put my resume online just in case. Despite deciding to stay put where I am, I still get calls from recruiters a couple of times a month. I highly suggest posting your resume on an appropriate forum and responding to a couple of job postings. Figure out for yourself whether or not the market has any interest in you. The odds are that if you are competent enough to pick up the slack of a down sizing, you are worth significantly more than you're currently making. I've had good luck with Dice.com.
You desperately need a job - the $38K sounds great when compared to an hourly wage. You'll do just about anything to get it, and you ultimately have no idea just how it will be once you get inside.
Pay the dues that entitle you to another $20K move on, with pride.
While you don't cave in, you work "for free". When you do cave in, they're rid of you. Someone's nephew is probably lined up already. Plus someone else to do the real work.
How can you do that much work with any Q at all, anyway? Mostly supervising condensed reports?
Build your resume (hopefully with a focus on what you want to be doing long term), and dump your current employer once you get a better opportunity. And you will, if you focus on the right business / IT combination. The economy will eventually get better. And besides, it will take you a lot longer to realize your true potential in earnings if you stay with the same company.
Just bank your experience, maybe have them just change your title to reflect your new role. The experience in your new role will pay off far more than a small raise now.
You call that a job?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Decide what you want to do with your life. Update your resume accordingly. Start the search for your new job. In the meanwhile, keep your head down, assuming you need to be employed. Your present employer is not worth a tinker's dam, or they would at least be improving your compensation. When you eventually submit your resignation, if they throw money at you, smile politely and leave.
good luck.
Or if you have enough saved quit right now. I've never been fired. I quit 4 jobs in my career and every time during my exit interview they asked why I was leaving and I told them it was because of money. Of course it was a bunch of the usual things like everyone here complains about but in fact it's always money. If they offered me a million bucks I would have put up with their crap. Then they always ask if there is anything they could do to keep me. I told them no. They would always ask what the offer was and I would be honest and tell them. They always said they would match it and some said they could beat it. I told them no because I didn't have to threaten the new employer with leaving just to get a raise and obviously you think I'm worth the new offer which means you know you were underpaying me to begin with and I don't want to work for a company like that.
The point is you have to leave. If you threaten to leave just to get a raise you will be labeled as a troublemaker and someone to get rid of at the first opportunity. Also you now know what kind of people they are and how could you work for them?
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
I had exactly this happen. In the space of about two years, I went from doing phone support for Windows users and running a small LAN in the office to running (and building, from scratch) a multi-state VPN based WAN running mission critical functions (like cash registers). I was prepared, and it went smoothly. So smoothly, nobody noticed how difficult a task it was. Came annual review time, and I got a cost of living raise. I looked my boss right in the eye and told him, in no uncertain terms, that I deserved more, and why, and that I'd be updating my resume if I didn't get more. A few weeks later, I got more, the biggest percentage raise in the company's history.
Some important points:
Remain calm, polite and professional.
Explain your position in an objective manner, as in, "this is what I was hired for, and these are the specific duties that have been added since then."
Refer to any past performance reviews that have been positive, especially ones that reference the new, added duties.
And most important of all, and I cannot overemphasize this:
WORK FOR REASONABLE PEOPLE.
If you are concerned that your employer will respond negatively to you asking for a raise in a reasonable manner, with objective evidence to support your deserving it, you are probably right. And that means you are not working for reasonable people. And reasonable people will not take care of you.
Loyalty is a two way street, always. If it does not go in both directions, it's not loyalty, it's subsevience.
Seriously, I would bring it to their attention the workload increase you've recieved. That isn't just a couple of things thrown on you here and there. You've been given a ton of new responsibilities, and they've definitely changed what you were initially hired to do. At the very LEAST, you should be asking for a raise. I would likely ask for an assistant and a new title as well. Good luck to them to get somebody to instantly replace you and learn all that is needed in the timeframe they so obviously are looking at.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
Stop being so competent. They probably won't give you a raise, might give you a new title, but assuredly will continue to pile on work until you stop doing it so well. Blow a few deadlines and hose a couple servers. If that doesn't help, get sick for a while.. gotta be careful and stay just useful enough not to get fired, but dam man.. keep it up and you will be the whipping boy for every management brainfart until you crumble. Be careful about scattering resume's.. when that gets upwind its all downhill... especially in a company who appears to believe you're bought in. Stop The Insanity and take it a little easier.. seriously..
If they don't have enough money to pay what your work is worth, and if you believe the company will be successful, then ask for some sort of equity. That costs them little now and pays you if they do suceed. If you don't think they will, then you should already be looking for a job elsewhere anyway.
just bend over and ask, "please use some KY Jelly, Sir".
It sounds like you are working for a relatively small company? If so, a little education is in order...
In general, when a company hires you, they are hiring _you_, not for the skills of the day, but for your potential in the future and your ability to extend into new roles. As an employee of a small firm, you are expected to wear different hats, grow with the job, be flexible, and fill in holes where they need to be filled.
You sadly view yourself, instead, as a commodity, a replaceable set of skills; a robot. Your company was hoping that they had hired an all-around joe who was able to handle multiple new responsibilities as they came up. Instead of firing you, they let go some other poor slobs, which should bolster your confidence that they like you and want to trust in your talents.
No employer is perfect when opening a new position, and the business landscape always changes. You should never expect to be doing the exact same tasks in which you were hired for. And if you do, you probably need to work for a large business or the government which can help you in your endeavor to be plugged in mindlessly to the cog.
Your employer has obviously made some tough decisions and now needs you to perform some other duties. How exactly does that necessitate a pay raise, or a new title? Just do the work that is asked of you. You do their work, you collect a paycheck. It's really that simple. Titles are stupid and meaningless. Your new set of responsibilities does not imply a pay raise.
So, work hard for your pay. Become irreplaceable. Grow in your talents. Demonstrate your continued loyalty and support of your company and its managers. And if the company is any good and values your contributions, you will be rewarded appropriately.
And if you can't do this, you can't get over taking on new responsibilities while not getting a new title or some additional pay, then good luck selling your set of wares to the next poor schlub that might decide to hire you.
From my experience, the best jobs are the ones _without_ titles. What exactly again does a title give you? Prove your worth, and a pay raise (and more) may very well come your way.
Beware of geeks bearing formulas.
The easiest way to get better pay is hopping jobs regularly.
And the additional advantage is you'll get diverse skills.
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
"You'll never make what you're worth working for somebody else."
That's from the wealthiest person I know who is a huge donor to a local university. And he's right.
It really doesn't matter how much stuff you know. The person that runs business X needs somebody who can do task Y and task Y has a specific value to business X. Period. If you can do more, good for you. It doesn't mean that they're going to pay you anymore.
Say you're the single greatest web programmer ever and you work for a company that makes websites for it's customers. In that company, you should be getting a portion of the money you're helping to rake in. You take your identical skill set to a telecom company and you will be paid somewhere in the budget range they've got allocated to the position, based on your experience.
Simple as that. Identical skill sets have different value to different people. Many business people just view you as "the web guy" if you're doing anything related to the web and as far as they're concerned you are being paid the acceptable rate for your time already. It's not a business where you can set different prices for different tasks.
You're being paid for your time per week. If they ask you to do something different with that time, there is not going to be a bit of difference in their mind. If you're doing web content, web design, or web programming you are going to be "the web guy" and assumed to do all of them. If somebody asks the janitor to build a website, the janitor will say "I don't know how."
If you'd like to be paid proportionally, per task type then start a business. The flip side to being able to set your own price as you perceive it's value is that you have to accumulate enough of a client base and reputation that people are willing to pay those rates consistently enough to pay your bills.
I've got my own business now and I used to feel undervalued, significantly, where I worked. Now, I would damn near kill for a steady paycheck. The ups and downs will kill you. What it has done though, is give me a dramatically greater appreciation for people who are able to provide jobs in the first place.
Are you working 100% of the time when you're on the job? Are you spending any time on slashdot/facebook/some other site?
Well, your employer was paying for every ounce of that time that you weren't really doing what you're paid to do. If you factor in your downtime + what you feel like you should be paid during your up time, it might just be a wash.
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
The economy is bad now, so learn as much as you can and update your resume. Talk about all the responsibility you have. When the economy picks up, leave.
going back to your company for more money does not work. Going back in a bad economy is more likely to get you fired.;
It may be a gentler way to get a raise: one hour worked = one hour paid, all at a single flat rate.
Since you work 80h weeks, you are looking at a doubling of you salary. At best, you get $$; at worst, they hire a second guy and you get your life back. All you have to give in exchange is the overtime fees.
Several years back I posted an article on LockerGnome. Entitled "What is your definition of an I. T. Professional," I think it is highly relevant to this discussion. I.T. is a new profession in the history of the world, and in it's definition, not unlike legal, religion, accounting, even medical (if you want to argue the value of human life, try getting free medical treatment). I've worked for lawyers, doctors, accountants, and even clergy, and although I might not want to be associated with any of them, I feel I. T. professionals deserve recognition AS professionals. I. T. people make companies run, they create and run the systems that generate revenue, while the antiquated business people take credit. Without the I. T. people, the business people would be doing business on paper. That article is here: http://www.lockergnome.com/it/2007/08/06/what-is-your-definition-of-an-it-professional/ But business doesn't want this. They want to keep the I. T. people down. They think all we do is type, and I've actually heard, "Can't you type faster?" Obviously that person was so inadequate as to even understand the depth of out knowledge or what we really do. They think we are just the geeks that they belittled in school, and we kept laughing and saying it's OK. It is in fact business that is antiquated. Take meetings for example. Meetings are a throwback to days before telephones, when business HAD to call people together to disseminate and gather information. That they still cling to this is simple proof of their obsolescence. Getting back to the topic at hand, and that is, "What to do when responsibilities spiral," the answer to that will come when I. T. is recognized as a profession. I took a job as a programmer, and ended up being Network Admin and Webmaster and even computer-builder. Yes, I should have been paid more. Another way we get conned into more responsibilities is when we are asked to give of our personal lives. If an I. T. person carries a pager and thus cannot be free to live their life, cannot have drinks at dinner for fear of being paged, well that I. T. person should be paid for all his time, THE SAME WAY that a lawyer would demand a retainer for merely being available. We need the lawyers to do their job and PROSECUTE those responsible when companies LIE TO CONGRESS and ask for more H1B visas when so many I. T. People are out of work. Limit the number of people in the field and the value will return. I'd like to say we need a national union but ... well, there actually is a limit to the flames I wish to create.
I think with this economy, some people jump to the quick and easy response "Just be glad you have a job and shut up." I have been through multiple layoffs during this recession and my take is some companies are using the recession as an excuse. They use it as an excuse to overwork people, to not take care of HR issues when they need to, not give raises (even cost of living) and other general crappiness that they can get away with. Obviously, you are not being treated right. They probably said to themselves "Yeah this guy is bright and can multitask so lets get rid of everyone and make him do all the work!" Cost-savings of $$$$. You won't get fired for asking for a raise. Go in there with a complete list of the things that you do/are responsible for and see what they say. If they say F**%% off, then you know to start looking. The economy is getting better and if you leave, they are going to be screwed. If they are stupid enough to not give you anything, they deserve what they get.
Change all the pw's and hold the network hostage. If they don't give you a raise, rm -r *
.... that would be construed as unfair dismisal and your employer would have been liable.
Go for a new job title, work to prove you're the right guy in charge (employers like to know they can count on key people to take care of things), and after a while go for a medium rise. Don't ask for more resources until you're absolutely sure that a new resource will have enough workload to be allocated full-time (without giving away from your workload). Try to figure out what kind of guy should the new resource be in order to be able to take care of things the same way you do (you will need to get involved into recruiting, because you will be directly responsible if the new guy screws up). Also keep in mind that a new guy hired means lots of costs, so the move must somehow turn to be profitable for the company (not just costly). Next step is to try to figure out a context for extending your newly founded team with 1-2 more guys (there must be proven opportunity of profitability in order to accomplish this). Once you have about 3 guys on your team, and loads of things that you and your guys take care of, then you're set for the real rise (the Rise).
All the above advice is great, but the short version is this: your employers are either idiots or abusers. Get out. In my experience, it is very, very rarely in your best interest to do a job you don't want to do, for too little money. At least for more than a few months. If the job responsibilities are shifting, then the organization really needs to hire someone who wants those responsibilities. And if they can't hire such a person, and are trying to save money by manipulating you into doing the work, then they are taking advantage of you. So keep your good attitude, but ya I agree with others who said it's time to start looking elsewhere before the environment becomes more abusive than it is now.
And did I mention how much I love my parents for ensuring I don't ever have to deal with that crap again? Typing all that out makes me remember just how miserable that whole scene was.
I've been doing short term temp work to keep myself occupied (Fast fact: Spend more than a month at home at a time with nothing to do, and you will start hating your wife and kids). A few weeks ago I spent 3 days sanding off the little plastic pieces left on plastic forks when they leave the extruder. Grunt work is so much less stressful than corporate bullshit. And it's possible to make decent money doing mindless labor. Awhile back I had a temp job at a food manufacturing plant for a month spraying down their machines to eliminate allergens and was getting paid $14/hr. Full employees were making $18/hr. with a full benefits package.
So there's another good tip for possibly increasing your job satisfaction. Move somewhere with a low cost of living (here in NE Oklahoma you can get a new, mid range 1800sq ft, 4BR 2Bath house for $175k) Get a job doing grunt work and get the hell out of the office.
Looking at the +5 insightfuls I have to wonder ...
How many of you are +5 unemployed because you did what you're telling this guy to do?
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Shitty employees are willing to work for shitty companies. If you are good(which it sounds like you're better than everyone they let go), find a decent company to work for. They do exist. They are few and far between though, just like great employees are.
I'm there already.
your mom is a whore
Morpheus, God of Dreams.
Your life has afforded you the intelligence and resources to get a college education, and a job that pays more than ten grand a year.
What I'm about to say is harder in practice than in theory, but it's the truth.
Don't take your situation for granted. You have to step outside your self and look at the situation objectively. Your life kicks ass, sir.
It's not going to hurt to print out a few resumes and float them around, since you're obviously being taken advantage of, but from where I'm sitting, I want taken advantage of... badly.