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WikiLeaks Will Unveil Major Bank Scandal
Atmanman writes "When WikiLeaks announced it was releasing 251,287 US diplomatic cables, we all thought we knew what was meant by its earlier ominous words that, 'The coming months will see a new world, where global history is redefined.' It now appears the organization is sitting on a treasure trove of information so big that it has stopped taking submissions. Among data to be released are tens of thousands of documents from a major US banking firm and material from pharmaceutical companies, finance firms and energy companies."
...a lot of people recently said that Wikileaks has become an anti-US organization. We should probably wait and see what they actually release, but perhaps this news shows otherwise? Or is the fact that they are going to release data on US based corporations just going to be viewed as more evidence of an anti-US sentiment?
Palm trees and 8
Looks like a good time to short some US banks. Technically this is public information.
Expose the corruption and tyranny of our ruling classes for all to see, and let the bastards be damned!
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Now this is the kind of stuff I want to see. I already know basically what the government is doing and how things are going in the wars on the ground, what I don't know is what the pharmaceutical companies and banks have been hiding.
Wikileaks is embarassing everyone who deserves it. I approve.
That wikileaks is exclusively an an ant-US govornment organization and that they no longer do "real whistle-blowing"?
"It will give a true and representative insight into how banks behave at the executive level in a way that will stimulate investigations and reforms, I presume"
While one may not like all the steps taken by Assange, one should give credit for the understatement that the new documents will "stimulate investigations".
Document will say that bankers are crooks.
Life will go on unchanged. They will still get their buy-out.
Carry on.
Are we still going to ask them to stop doing what they are doing ? However with big banks and big pharm involved, I am more concerned about the well being of the individuals who run wikileaks, then if only governments were involved.
...a lot of people recently said that Wikileaks has become an anti-US organization. We should probably wait and see what they actually release, but perhaps this news shows otherwise? Or is the fact that they are going to release data on US based corporations just going to be viewed as more evidence of an anti-US sentiment?
You should probably clarify that you meant anti-US government as they might actually be providing the citizens a lot more transparency than previously thought possible. When a US company is targeted, both the government and the people might be happy -- especially if it's tax evasion or violation of laws. Here's a good snippet when they run down which industries they might have dirt on:
Continuing then: The tech industry?
We have some material on spying by a major government on the tech industry. Industrial espionage.
U.S.? China?
The U.S. is one of the victims.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that everyone would like the offenders of industrial espionage to be dragged out in the open. Especially the United States government.
Anti-US, pro-US, who cares? This is going to get interesting and the knife is going to cut everybody.
I'm really going to break down laughing if Wikileaks hosts dirt on Amazon, their knew hosting provider with EC2!
My work here is dung.
Given the hell that many people have been going through the past few years compliments of the banks, I say, expose them ALL!
If big Pharma has some dirt on it's hands we all should be aware of that too. Energy companies? They wouldn't ever try to screw anyone over either. The total lack of transparency when it comes to the movement of riches from the poor to the richest in America needs to be exposed with hard factual evidence, and if wikileaks has it, I hope it comes out before wikileaks is no more...
This is a potential positive from wikileaks for the general US populous, whereas the diplomatic cables, while interesting, sure piss a lot of Americans off...
Ocean is land, covered with water.
I hope this is about Goldman Sachs!
Messing with multinational mega corporations are an entirely different thing. They might not care or even look at you indulgently when you take pot shots at the government. But come after them, they don't play nice. To put it mildly.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Why do you not use capitalization? Are you a COWARD?
You are nothing.
You are completely pathetic.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
I hope Assange is as well-protected as he seems to be. He may already have the US Gov't after him, but if it's banks and pharmaceutical companies too, things are only going to get worse.
I really hope some of this stuff makes people stop saying "We hate wikileaks" and start saying "hey thanks for letting us know we were all getting fucked."
The general public needs to be reminded that censorship isn't the answer. It seems to be the only thing they want nowadays.
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
The blurb makes it sound like this is an imminent release. According to the interview this information won't be released until "early next year".
Better known as 318230.
And what exactly, pray tell, would you do once the corruption and tyranny gets exposed? What are you hoping for? The revolution to begin? Bringing down the 'fat cats' and bringing 'justice' to the 'oppressed'? Okay, fine, heard that all before.
What happens afterwards? Who does the clean-up? Who puts everything back in order? Or, would there be a New World Order? One based on your personal definitions of what is 'Just' and 'Un-Just'? One in which the Wrongs are Righted, the Righteous finally ascend to Their Proper Station, and we all live in a land of Kumbayah under a new benevolent rule?
I'll cut to the chase. Spare me your indignant moral outrage and nihilistic desire to watch the world burn. You're just as bad, corrupt, and potentially tyrannous as those you espouse to hate. The only difference between 'Them' and people like you is that you haven't gotten your turn to be in charge.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
OOOhhh aaaaahh Cantonaaaaah
http://www.alternet.org/story/148977/join_in_on_the_world's_biggest_bank_run_this_december
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
He's obviously a coward of some sort given that he have approximately half a billion slashdot accounts, that number at the end of his name is an hint.
So do you have very high impact corporate stuff to release then?
...
Will we?
Yes, but maybe not as high impactI mean, it could take down a bank or two.
Yes. We have one related to a bank coming up, that’s a megaleak. It’s not as big a scale as the Iraq material, but it’s either tens or hundreds of thousands of documents depending on how you define it.
Is it a U.S. bank?
Yes, it’s a U.S. bank.
One that still exists?
Yes, a big U.S. bank.
The biggest U.S. bank?
No comment.
When will it happen?
Early next year. I won’t say more.
What do you want to be the result of this release?
[Pauses] I’m not sure.
It will give a true and representative insight into how banks behave at the executive level in a way that will stimulate investigations and reforms, I presume. Usually when you get leaks at this level, it’s about one particular case or one particular violation.
For this, there’s only one similar example. It’s like the Enron emails. Why were these so valuable? When Enron collapsed, through court processes, thousands and thousands of emails came out that were internal, and it provided a window into how the whole company was managed. It was all the little decisions that supported the flagrant violations.
This will be like that. Yes, there will be some flagrant violations, unethical practices that will be revealed, but it will also be all the supporting decision-making structures and the internal executive ethos that cames out, and that’s tremendously valuable. Like the Iraq War Logs, yes there were mass casualty incidents that were very newsworthy, but the great value is seeing the full spectrum of the war.
You could call it the ecosystem of corruption. But it’s also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that’s not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they’re fulfilling their own self-interest. The way they talk about it.
why do you not use your real name? are you a COWARD. your mom has a billion slashdot accounts.
(this is kind of fun, actually)
For those that don't get the joke, go through Michael's posting history under his 50 or so accounts.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Yeah, that's why senior administration officials are calling for Assange's head. Because he made it all up.
It's really pathetic when people consider the truth to be political. I think it's far more likely that you're upset that your worldview has turned out to be a lie.
messing with governments gets mixed up in equivalency and nationalism and generates more heat than anything actually useful. iran is already saying wikileaks is an american plot
http://www.presstv.ir/details/153259.html
something that hurts the usa should be a subject of celebration in the iranian government, right? no. because people are so mixed up in their prejudices, any reveal of what a government did or said can always be conveniently reexplained with some creative thinking such that your prejudices are never really examined. whether pro-usa, or anti-usa, your opinion of the usa is completely unaffected by wikileaks, as iranian spin shows
wikileaks clearly shows that the great satan is not the one who hates them and wants their destruction: all their neighboring countries secretly push the usa to topple iran, while those countries say nothing publicly. that's what wikileaks shows. this challenges the narrative of the great satan plotting your downfall, and so proof that the great satan is not a great satan. therefore, wikileaks must be explained away with plots and conspiracies, where julian assange is actually an agent of the CIA. it would be hilarious, if maintaining the prejudicial narrative weren't such a deadly serious effort by those who love, or hate, the usa, for prejudicial reasons. so it's a complete wash: wikileaks has zero effect on the usa's standing in the world, or in the minds of committed pro-usa or anti-usa partisans.
however, the corporations, they need unmasking. a lot of people in the usa have this phony narrative of their poor neighbors and their government being the enemy of their prosperity. the real enemy of their prosperity: corporations. there is nothing wrong with capitalism, but corporatism is not capitalism. corporatism is buying off the government to permanently warp the markplace against the smaller players and to entrench your dominant position in it. the government is not the enemy, corporations are. the greatest enemy capitalism has ever known, in fact, is not communism, but corporatism, in all of economic history, the big players have always warped the markplace in their direction. yet so many fools believe this phony narrative of the government and poor people being the enemy of capitalism, and large corporations heroes, or at worst, harmless victims on the sidelines, of evil government regulations (that are written by those same corporations)
so hopefully, a reveal of how corporations are your real enemy, not your government, might open some foolish eyes, for once, i hope
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They really need to accept and publish some anonymous submissions about forgotten people/companies/countries doing something good. This "new world history" may be a little draining, to the effect of nobody really caring any more - everyone is a crook, liar and cheat. Isn't this usually just called "gettin old" ?
Get off my lawn. Here...take this bank with you.
So they've hit the government, now they're going to hit the merchants. Hmm... If they hint they've got a massive bombshell about religious groups, you might want to duck and cover.
If the media had been doing their job WikiLeaks would not be needed.
But since the media is in bed with government and industry, this is what it takes.
Who publishes the dirt on the publisher?
So they warn about releasing military|political data and our 'people' just complain about it and pick up the pieces... but now that they're going after corporate powers, they're under enormous DDoS fire, huh? I hope this is juicy data.
If it ends up that the new leaks target all kinds of banks and companies, then no. If they are all conveniently US banks and companies, then I'd say that lends some credence to the anti-US idea. I mean after all in terms of corporate leaks you have one of three situations:
1) Only the US companies are so incompetent as to allow any information to leak. Any non-US company is an expert at information security, as good or better than a national intelligence agency, and thus has no leaks at all. Ok well that is hard to the point of impossible believe.
2) Only US companies do anything bad. All other companies in the world are perfectly moral and righteous, they don't do anything they would be worried about the public seeing. We know that isn't the case, as a great very public example look at the French banker who got nailed for billions in unauthorized trading.
3) Wikileaks only care about or chooses to publish secrets for US entities, not foreign. This is likely.
So like I said, it'll all come down to what is released. If it is from all over the place, then that is a good sign they probably aren't motivated by anti-US feelings, the US leak was just because they happened to get that information. If everything released just happens to be about US entities, well then I'd say that is a reasonable indication that yes, they DO have an anti-US agenda.
We'll just have to see.
I'm yawning,
I'm yawning some more,
and Zzzzzz.
DUN DUN DUNNNNNN
Okay. Why Not Just Release It!?
Wikileaks was a site that just published leaked documents. It still does this. It seems now though that it wants to be considered a major entity in its own right rather than just as an anonymous dumping ground for data. So now we have Julian Assange publicly engaged in self promotion, by revealing himself and Wikileaks pre-announcing its leaks.
It concerns me a little. It does seem to change the nature of what Wikileaks is. Is it a news site that has an explicit agenda, or an anonymous service that releases everything without taking a moral stance?
I thought the following exchange on page 2 was interesting. Not sure that it means, except that the interviewer seemed to be putting (fairly harmless) words into Julian Assange's mouth:
JA: . . . These big package releases. There should be a cute name for them.
Interviewer: Megaleaks?
JA: Megaleaks. That’s good. These megaleaks . . . .
Interviewer: These megaleaks, as you call them . . . .
Yeah, sure, we like to see big companies getting screwed. Unless it is the company where our family members work, or the company which takes care of our money, or the company which takes care of our health care.
Disrupting such companies might be worse and have much more dangerous effects than what they were doing wrong in the first place. WikiLeaks is being irresponsible, people who had nothing to do with the misconducts will certainly lose their jobs and not only within the companies -- the economy is an ecosystem, if one species goes away, a lot more will suffer.
I don't really care if they're anti or pro American. This is a true Revolution to be remembered in future time. If all these documents are, indeed, real, then we may be watching the true Revolution of Freedom -- the discovery that our democracy has grown to be something riddled with shit and corruption. The question that I pose is: What's next?
/all/, but *most*) democracy isn't working and will not work in the near future. What IS __THE NEXT STEP__?
Democracy is still the best ideal that I believe we have. I am talking worldwide, not just in the US. What is the valid alternative? Alternatives that I often discuss with my friends are alternatives that establish different democratic hierarchies and especially voting restrictions. However, this ideal that I often propose to them is just not feasible for many reasons (mainly: Human non determination, Human misuse of resources, implicit discrimination and violation of human rights). What is our alternative? Where do we go from here? I'm sure many disagree, but it seems to many that most (notice not
For starters, WikiLeaks seems to be going there. Freedom is a must have. Transparency is essential. Not everywhere, as some things must be made secret, but the fear of being discovered -- much like is happening now -- can force people to "behave". This is a true revolution if it gets spread and if it really gets worldwide. We must use this to our well being, we must show people that Freedom is essential and that a Democracy without proper freedom and ethically correct behavior isn't good. That IS the next step -- a Free, Ethically Correct Democracy. Unfortunately, that is the exact ideal that we can't reach, because even losers vote -- and losers can't vote decently. Plus, even if we didn't allow losers to vote, who is to say they didn't stop being losers? Plus, who isn't to say that "non losers" can't be bought or vote wrongly? Who isn't to say that the politicians that "ethically correct people" elect change their position and become "evil"?
The World keeps going forward, but we're walking backwards -- and we don't seem to be willing to go forward...just check the possible comments and troll ratings I'll get instead of a logical and healthy debate.
Have you heard about SoylentNews?
YES YES YES. YES. OH GOD YES. OH YEA. FUCK YEA. Please, release this data soon. I want this so bad. Hell, considering how incredibly evil the bank and corporate system in America is on a public level, I am terrified and excited and horny to find out how evil they have actually been being this entire time.
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
...I'm not interested.
Attacking the U.S. government was dangerous enough, but with the amount of collective money behind the banks, pharma and energy, I sure wouldn't want to be anyone associated with WikiLeaks right now. A ten-million dollar per head contract for these people would be chump change for the companies involved.
... everyone interested in the ongoing bullshit with the banks should see this.
http://dailybail.com/
Some of their videos just make me livid. Socialism for the rich, free market for everyone else.
Well, to take a third option, what if he's heavily broadcasting his actions for a reason? You know, the US government scrambled around doing damage control in preparation for the cable leak. Maybe this is his way of saying, "Hey, I have this information and I'm going to give you the chance to do something before it hits the fan."
Devil's Advocate to be sure, but considering the goal of this is transparancy, it would mean a lot more if the bank would come clean itself, rather than wait for a third party who claims to have them already beaten.
Its interesting that there never seem to be any internal Russian or Chinese revelations.
Its possible that they've never gotten any at Wikileaks.
Its more probable that they've noted how the Russians and the Chinese deal with people who pry in places that they aren't wanted. Anyone remember Alexander Litivenko or Anna Politkovskaya?
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
At least the egomanaic is admitting that the documents he finds don't actually show anything "beyond the pale." I'm sure he expected for some kind of smoking gun where he saw US soldiers just blatantly murdering people and people laughing about it or something.
The documents as far as I'm concerned largely show the US as handling all this pretty well. I mean, what planet does Wikileaks live on? The one where Stalin didn't murder 50 million people?
I'm sure the logs of Wikileaks sound equally malevolent when someone posts in and describes everyone in it as some big evil character out of central casting.
This is great. It clears the decks, let's people not have to have paranoia about "whats out there" because guess what you saw it! and it's not all that bad!
How many thousands of people have been removed from the parts of the government we don't get to vote on ?
Zero ?
Then this is not a leak, and they are not concerned about it.
Wikileaks could be the best COINTEL program yet !
As long as Americans are fat, have a roof over their head, and their TV, they don't give shit.
They want to make sure their taxes are low and that there are plenty of Government services and that they think they are safe from the Muslim terrorists.
We Americans have grown fat and complacent. We no longer deserve our Republic and as a result, we are losing it to the power hungry.
We wont revolt. We're too stupid and lazy.We're pathetic - all we care about is having a full tummy while we're safe from the "evil" Muslim terrorists who want to take away our "Freedom".
I for one think we should give up our Republic and beg Great Britain to take us back into their Motherly folds.
B.C.C.I. with gunrunning, drug trafficking, prostitution, and, more importantly, MONEY LAUNDERING.
Yours In Minsk,
K. Trout
You are joking, right? Because if not, holy shit humanity sucks and all because of you.
You see, they are releasing data that shows banks have been fucking people over in more ways than the ways they have been doing it publicly. It is like unveiling evidence that shows a serial killer also happens to rape children, eat puppies while they are still alive and kicks kittens for fun, along with baby seal clubbing.
Banks own 60% of the property and wealth in the US. They have been publicly leveraging that massive wealth to drive up the prices of everything they own to sell off, like De'Beers does with diamonds except with shelter, and forcing people into homelessness. If that is their publicly known business model, aren't you curious to find out what they have been hiding?
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
Is that code for cognitive dissonance?
Or are most of the voices in your head blonde news anchors with the same thousand yard stare?
I asked myself the same thing. If they are selecting what to release, in what order, and how much noise to make for each release, then it would look like they have a reason to privilege certain leaks, or even hide leaks they went through and decided not to publish (which is far more dangerous).
IMHO it is too much power in the hands of a single organization and that rarely brings anything good in the long run.
i am not a coward. i am michael kristopeit.
would a coward participate in the winter oympics?
would a coward go karting down nottingham?
would a coward serve his country in iraq?
did your mother name you "MyLongNickName"?
you are a pathetic, ignorant hypocrite.
you are NOTHING.
this usually indicates that the poster is a cockroach. our legs cannot reach both the shift key and the letter at the same time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy_and_Mehitabel
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
Basically Wikileaks is trying to change the world so that we are so afraid of things we do in private being revealed that we don't do anything bad. They are doing this in the name of the public, and there is something to that, but they don't seem to care if they are crossing the lines between appropriately private matters and ones where the light of day would do significant public good. They absolve themselves of responsibility by adopting a pretty much filterless approach to revelation. There are great costs accompanying the benefits they provide, and though in the grand balance they may have done more good than harm so far, the magnitude of the stakes could tip the scale the other way very quickly.
So far a lot of the stuff I've seen leaked hasn't been particularly shocking. A lot of it covers things people have already known or at least strongly suspected but for whatever reason hasn't gotten the attention it deserves. These leaks simply drag those details out into the light of day to be openly acknowledged and discussed. It seems to me like the media and government officials are making a bigger deal of this than the general public. On the other hand, I also believe that it's entirely possible to cross the line and start causing some real harm, even if it hasn't happened yet.
I don't have a particular good impression of Assange; I get the impression he has too big an ego for his own good. I also have questions about about bias. I think Wikileaks can provide a valuable service, but only if it operates as an equal opportunity offender. There's a real problem if members of the organization can't see beyond personal biases, if they show reluctance in releasing information damaging to their particular worldview, for example. Or worse, they decide they have it in for a particular entity, in this case, the United States. Of it may be a problem that the US isn't nearly as good at securing it's sensitive information as, let's say, China.
I'm placing bets on the bank in question being Bank of America. They're quite despicable, but then that's already well-known which again raises my point of Wikileaks releasing information that's generally common knowledge.
If the documents are sufficient, I wonder how they will continue to spin corrupt financial industry practices as the fault of Obama without actually doing anything useful to stop them. 9/11 spared them from Enron, and if lightning strikes twice...
Here's what concerns me. We have large numbers of anonymous individuals sending information off to some guy who they assume is some sort of hero or on a moral high ground. In actuality we don't know what Assange's intentions or internal agenda is. It would be trivial for Assange to filter information and only display leaks that would damage the country of his choice. Not just at a government level, but at a corporate / economic level. It is impossible to monitor Wikileak's integrity or transparency. Do you think if Mr. Whistleblower's documents regarding Country X are not posted that Mr. Whistleblower is going to go to the established media and complain about that?
Somehow Wikileaks has assumed a level of authority and trust that it has not earned nor that is remotely justified via its internal policies and structure. I have read numerous articles about Assange, and how he wants to be in control of everything and basically tells his "volunteers" to f*** off if they question him or disagree with what he does. He holds all the keys to the kingdom.
Quotes of Assange's like this, from the interview linked in this story, concern me further:
All I can say is it’s clear there were unethical practices, but it’s too early to suggest there’s criminality. We have to be careful about applying criminal labels to people until we’re very sure.
Who is Assange to judge and / or label corporations or individuals? Isn't his role in life to throw static files on a server so other people can download them? Shouldn't the information speak for itself and be analyzed be individuals that know far more than him and his organization? I don't think Assange is the unwilling, unwitting sacrificial lamb that has been thrust into this horrible role. There seems to be an ego to stoke, or at least that is my opinion.
Finally, one last personal nitpick. What the hell does "wiki" have to do with anything? I think he threw that term in there to gain additional trust and ride the coattails of Wikipedia. There is nothing "wiki" about wikileaks in any way whatsoever.
Better known as 318230.
Wikileaks isn't anti-US at all.
Sure, most of the stuff released there puts the US in a bad light. But you know what? Wikileaks didn't actually do any of those things. They just let the world know about it. You think we'd be a better nation if nobody knew about any of this stuff?
Not me my friend.
I'm glad the untouchable people who harm the country I love just might get called to task for the things they've done. The end result will be a stronger (and hopefully more accountable) America.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Dude, wake up. Our country (and most others) is run by mobsters, traitors, and diverse sociopaths. In attacking Wikileaks' release of documents showing this corruption and criminality you are defending people and organizations far more damaging to individuals, countries, and societies than Wikileaks can ever be.
What people need to learn is that wikileaks is not the enemy of the United States, it is the enemy of humanity.
That remark is so far over the top, so ludicrous, and so simple-minded that one can only wonder who could possibly make it and why.
This kind of things goes to show that wikileaks knows no bounds beyond it's ego. Previous defenders of it have often pulled the card that it only exposes government secrets.
The fallacy of that defense is now gone, and wikileaks is exposing itself for what it really is, an out of control organization holding itself above any law seeking to cause as much societal disruption to as they can. What's next, exposing people's bank records? Perhaps it's ok to expose bank records if we don't like the person will be used to justify this.
How would you like to have your company's business plans and secrets exposed to the world to see? Will this kind of thing still be ok when a Chinese company steals your R&D and beats you to the market resulting in your future job loss? I've called out this possibility before only to be flamed for suggesting such a thing and now it it has inevitably come true.
It is inevitable that in it's power hungry appetite wikileaks will continue to expose any and every secret that they can. At some point health records will be exposed (perhaps by justifying something like Americans are too fat), bank details will be exposed and anything else that can be had.
What people need to learn is that wikileaks is not the enemy of the United States, it is the enemy of humanity.
lol, good one
If a company or state or individual is engaging in sufficiently egregious unethical practices, then that entity loses its right to keep its secrets. If a friend comes to me to tell me a secret, I'll keep it. Except, if it's about how he is going to kill 100 babies, I won't and I shouldn't. You're a troll anyway, so not that it much matters, but I felt like pointing that out.
So bringing the truth is more than a crime or ethic violation than those facts themselves?
C'mon... Like I once heard, there is no right way to do a wrong thing.
Hilarious, and well done. Wait! You need to talk about his mom's face!
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Hey bro, quick question, simple question really.
How many accounts do you have?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
No, just the enemy of opacity. Who would defend them by saying they only go after governments? I'd say only going after governments is like only going after someone's right hand when arresting them for assault. Why only deal with half the problem? In many cases government and corporations are deeply involved with each other and exposing one basically requires exposing the other. So far the exposures have all been relating to broad incidences of corruption and malfeasance where innocent people are being harmed. How does revealing medical or bank records of masses of people relate to that? Easy: it doesn't.
I don't understand how so many people can be corporate apologists after the obvious rape and plunder by the banks and mortgage industries. Do you really hate yourself that much?
Once that cat is out of the bag ...
WikiLeaks is by far the best thing to have happen. PERIOD. The US is on 'the defense' and want to label WikiLeaks as an Terrorist Organization ... FOR WHAT, for making public shit that we should have known. If you didn't want it out there, you should have had better security. I'm glad WL is doing what they are doing because as someone said above, it will make companies think twice about doing shady stuff. It is said that the US and other countries now want to fully prosecute Mr. Asange on the fake rape charge since they can't really hold him on anything else.
I am embarrassed to call myself an American just because of what the US Government is trying to do... :-(. Can't wait for the next round of leaks :-)
Then stop having an argument with NOTHING and do something useful with your boring life.
so what ?
i dont remember any divine communique, any natural law, any galactic decree that says being 'anti-us' is something bad ? apparently, noone but americans got the memo.
its ok being anti-china, its ok being anti-iran, its ok being anti-whatever, but, somehow, 'anti american' is a no-no eh ?
what amazing level of self-centeredness.
world doesnt revolve around u.s., note that.
in addition, it was the wall street which scammed ENTIRE planet, in a fraud that was unparalleled in history. so much that they sold water vapor to governments, banks, major global corporations, and poisoned the credit supply of the world SO bad that, there is no end to it in sight. because noone can tell poisoned assets from valid ones.
of course its going to be about a u.s. bank. geez.
AND,
wikileaks puts out ALL kinds of shit. its you americans' fault that you ALWAYS check it when there is something involving u.s., and see the front page about u.s. then go about bullshitting how they are anti-us. here, for your convenience, the link to where wikileaks indexes the shit it spurts out. i dont see 'us, us, us' written all over it. it wouldnt be a problem even if it was.
http://mirror.infoboj.eu/
Read radical news here
One very good reason; they've just released a load of stuff.
You don't want to compete with yourself for attention, so you have to wait until the public and media have had their fill of your current leak before releasing the next one; plus, it's almost Christmas so nobody will be paying much attention anyway. Best to leave it until the new year, when interest in the Diplomatic Cables leak has died down a bit and people aren't too busy pretending to get on with their relatives to notice what you're saying.
There is so much double-speak going on here that I'm sorry, but I just have to ask - are you a paid troll, and who is your employer?
How would you like to have your company's business plans and secrets exposed to the world to see? Will this kind of thing still be ok when a Chinese company steals your R&D and beats you to the market resulting in your future job loss? I've called out this possibility before only to be flamed for suggesting such a thing and now it it has inevitably come true.
Did you even bother to read what is being discussed? Because you are stating it precisely bass-ackwards. Assange is not suggesting that he'll release your company's most precious business secrets - he's suggesting that he'll expose how other companies are STEALING IDEAS THAT AREN'T THEIRS VIA CORPORATE ESPIONAGE, and it's rather disingenuous of you to twist this around and try to imply that company business/trade secrets will be revealed because he's outing shitty business practices.
Standing there, saying what you are saying, squarely frames you as someone who supports the idea that corporate espionage is "normal", stealing is "acceptable"...let's use the train-of-thought from your original post, and follow this primrose path down to hell a little further...next I suppose you support "lethal force against protestors", "tighter controls on social dissent", the concept of "justified assassination of heads of state" and other such crap. Wear a brown shirt much?
Then again, the entire 'Valley is pretty much knee-deep in this mentality of 'profits by any means, including the sale of your mother', so I'm not surprised.
should get the full force of it.
One of the key parts of diplomacy requires diplomats to be able to give uncensored advice to political leaders that may offend the public or other leaders.
In the long run this may reduce the quality of advice our leaders get which could have tragic consequences. Its the reason why executive
priveledge exists. The most honest president the US has ever had, Grover Cleveland, fought tooth and nail for leaders being able to receive honest
and confidential advice.
A leak is only good think if it serves a legitimate public interest, not merely curiousity. If your intention is merely to cause
embarassment for embarassments sake then youre not a whistleblower.
Umm, no. Few, if any, people ever said that. Most people around here said things along the lines of Assange may be an egotist and various other bad things, but that the work Wikileaks is doing is good work. Most of the counter-sentiment about the Iraq leak has been the provocative, and not immediately dismissable, notion that the soldier who released the papers should be tried for treason.
You're arguing something that does not exist in this reality, and that probably will not. You're even farther from reality than those people claiming Wikileaks' previous leak on Iraq identified and endangered many informants and therefore hurt our cause, except for the fact that they can't actually name any instance of this happening and failed to notice the dearth of names or identifying information left in the papers as published.
You're arguing against Wikileaks because you simply don't like them, your arguments against them have no basis in how Wikileaks has shown itself to operate currently or in the past, and your mod of Funny would be just as true if it were instead Sad.
All I can say it "It's about F'ing time." Go Wikileaks Go!
For years, we have had to put up with our privacy and our rights being stolen. Now we even have to appear naked to fly. Our privacy is always under attack, and yet we are told "it's for our own good" either by the governments that assault us, or the corporations that rip us off and sell our personal data to each other.
FINALLY the time has come that governments and corporations are under the same microscope as the average joe. The internet has become the great equalizer. And notice how governments and corporations bristle at the mere thought that *their* privacy is being invaded, while they continue to casually rape us.
Yes, when it's the governments/corporations that have their privacy assailed, "ohhh the guy is a terrorist" "Assage must be imprisoned" "DDoS isn't good enough for him, hanging's too good for him!", etc..., meanwhile, few are DDoS'ing the RIAA, TransUnion, Equifax, et al.
THIS IS OUR REVOLUTION. And it's about time. Grab your pitchforks. Heads must roll.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
There have so far been some things that were interesting but nothing really shocking and nothing worth the cost. Assange is not about being a serious whistle blower working for the greater good. This is about shameless self promotion and nothing more. I can't even think he is a misguided idiot now, if he really thought this was for the good of the world that this stuff comes to light he'd release whatever he has got now to make sure it gets out before someone stops him and eventually someone will stop him. You can't just run around making the movers and shakers of the world look foolish forever before there is some reprisal.
I don't think he does care if this stuff gets out, I think he is just about keeping the media circus and his own fame as grand as possible.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Okay, 186, I asked for a number. How many fucking accounts do you have? Why the FUCK do you have more than one? Were you here the last time someone tried this little trick? Do you know what happens to people like you? You aren't welcome here, and that will be made increasingly and abundantly clear to you as time goes on. People here don't take kindly to astroturfing sock puppets. We've got chunks of guys like you in our stool.
Just so you know. I mean, I hope you are here because you are a masochist who loves getting his ass kicked. Because that's the only thing you will get here.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Contrary to what you and the Supreme Court seem to believe, corporations are not people.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
In countries that allow free press, the other company can research competitor products and expose competitor malpractices publicly. Thus minimize losses and maximizing good will.
In China however, anyone doing so will be banished by the government for someone or other friend of friend "losing face". The corruption and elite interests in countries like China simply make development slower and more unstable, just like Communistic 5-year plans. Although maybe not to the same extent, it HAS deadly consequences for a lot of Chinese citizens.
I see Wikileaks as a good thing. However, I believe more checks and balances should be applied to WHAT is released, not just release anything. Diplomatic embarrassments are not really worth publishing, because everybody knows it is going on and it can hurt foreign relationships.
But ultimately who knows? Maybe the leaked documents and the truth, will actually do something good? Who is most afraid of the truth? The evildoers of course. You can hear them complaining loudly now. Now you know who they are.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
It would be interesting to correlate the value of a /.'rs user ID and his or her leanings on this subject. No way to correlate age, of course, but interesting nonetheless.
has been, for some reason, hope-inducing.
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I am actually wondering if all of this wikileaks stuff was intentionally leaked to manipulate people.
For example, the revelation that China is growing tired of North Korea. This may be true, but it may also be a lie designed to build popular support with the US for action against NK.
Maybe I've seen too many movies, but if this guy really had something that was truly damaging, he'd be sleeping with the fishes by now.
blah blah blah
I am embarrassed to call myself an American just because of what the US Government is trying to do... :-(. Can't wait for the next round of leaks :-)
has restored my perspective towards american people.
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Gee, seems like you a little at odds with this quotation...
What do you think WikiLeaks mean for business? How do businesses need to adjust to a world where WikiLeaks exists?
WikiLeaks means it’s easier to run a good business and harder to run a bad business, and all CEOs should be encouraged by this. I think about the case in China where milk powder companies started cutting the protein in milk powder with plastics. That happened at a number of separate manufacturers.
Let’s say you want to run a good company. It’s nice to have an ethical workplace. Your employees are much less likely to screw you over if they’re not screwing other people over.
Then one company starts cutting their milk powder with melamine, and becomes more profitable. You can follow suit, or slowly go bankrupt and the one that’s cutting its milk powder will take you over. That’s the worst of all possible outcomes.
The other possibility is that the first one to cut its milk powder is exposed. Then you don’t have to cut your milk powder. There’s a threat of regulation that produces self-regulation.
It just means that it’s easier for honest CEOs to run an honest business, if the dishonest businesses are more effected negatively by leaks than honest businesses. That’s the whole idea. In the struggle between open and honest companies and dishonest and closed companies, we’re creating a tremendous reputational tax on the unethical companies.
No one wants to have their own things leaked. It pains us when we have internal leaks. But across any given industry, it is both good for the whole industry to have those leaks and it’s especially good for the good players.
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/an-interview-with-wikileaks-julian-assange/5/
n/t
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The most significant disclosure so far is that China's leadership is fed up with North Korea acting like a "spoiled child". Previously, China was considered to be a supporter of North Korea. Now, confirming the info from Wikileaks, Chinese officials are admitting that China's leadership is fed up with the drama. This leak was a win for both the US and China. It gets the word out that China isn't going to back any stupid actions by Kim Jong-il. without China's leadership having to say so publicly. This helps calm the situation down. That one item outweighs any harm Wikileaks may possibly have done.)
(Here's the best analysis of the Korean situation I've seen in print.)
It saddens me that someone who thinks like this is a member of my same species.
why do you cower in the shadows of an assume pseudonym? what are you afraid of?
What is he afraid of? Why do you fear anonymity? Regardless of whether the poster gives their real name, a pseudonym, or chooses to remain nameless what they have to say can stand or fall on its own merits. An intelligent, well-phrased argument should not be given any less consideration if the writer chose to remain anonymous. Similarly, offensive flamebait is still considered such if the writer attaches their own name to it.
Full of yourself much?
for indeed, it grasps the essence of what is happening here, free from all shitty nationalism thats going around.
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they say they have more to release than they can and so will have to choose what is most important. for more than a year they have only chosen to release thing targeted at the US, nothing else they have done this at the expense of refusing to reveal and even pulling previously revealed information about anything or anyone else. i am not a big fan of the US gov't or what they do. however, no matter what the target, if Assange shows us they only exist to grind a single axe with one single entity - whether that entity be the USA, kazoo manufacturers, Wherethefuckistan, or someones ex-girlfriend - if they lose perspective and balance then they lose a lot of the reason we support them.
That arrogant idiot Assange had better have some bloody-good bodyguards, because sooner or later he is going to embarrass someone who doesn't play by the rules.
"Would you like some fresh polonium-210 for your salad, sir?"
Regards;
This should pose as a wakeup call to everyone - you clearly cannot trust governments, banks, pharamceutical companies or really anyone else. Everyone must be assumed to be untrustworthy until proven otherwise.
And the proof is often 50 years after they are dead. So the message is Trust Nobody.
The second thing is that if the government, banks and other corporations are evil and corrupt maybe we should do something about it? Boycotts are pointless but bombs, arson and executions might get somewhere. The idea would be that if you cannot trust the people with the power and money then they need to be eliminated. Maybe we can find some trustworthy people - or maybe things just need to be restructured in such a fashion so that nobody is required to be trusted any longer.
This is probably another under-30/over-30 sort of battle, but this time there might actually be enough motivation to cause a worldwide revolt against anyone with more than a couple of nickles to rub together. The current US President has presented one possible dividing line between good and evil - $250,000 - but there may a more realistic one that is much, much lower. Sadly for Mr. Obama, it would appear that he is clearly in the evil camp with earnings well above $250,000.
So? Are you ready for the revolution? Are you prepared to dedicate your life (or what is left of it) to eliminating oppression in the world by untrustworthy government and corporations? It sounds like Mr. Assange is clearly going down that road.
Sadly, not nearly enough.
Buhy bye, troll. Have fun. I'm not the one who will stalk you, I'm not that crazy.But there are deep dark crazies here, and they just don't like your type. I've seen it before, and I'm just going to sit back and watch the fun. Weeeeeeeee! is right!
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I am getting my torch and pitchfork ready...
Love how many people here whine about Wikileaks being "anti US". If the US government didn't commit atrocities, then there would be no scoop. And if you have some important secrets concerning say the German or Australian government, feel free to publish them!
So are they ready to abide by the Fort Laramie treaties or do you mean something else?
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
What is the difference between a bunch of terrorists who fly planes into building to cripple the US economy and Wikileaks releasing documents with the same intent? Both are using the tools at hand to cause the disruption of as many lives as possible with the goal of bringing in a new world order.
You're assuming WikiLeaks is the only place a person can leak information. If I really wanted to get something out, I could send it anywhere: The Nation, Democracy Now, The Guardian. Or Fox News if it was somehow damaging to a democrat.
People have got the entire purpose of the Fourth Estate hugely backwards these days. There can be only one government per nation. There can be thousands of media outlets. WikiLeaks is showing that our Fourth Estates are entirely in the hands of the same people who are breaking the law. The editors care more about keeping corporate advertisers and access to government officials than they do about telling the truth, so the entire system of checks and balances has fallen completely apart.
So yeah, Assange is literally putting his life on the line to get the truth out. He's being sort of a douche about it, but that's the sort of personality that has the balls to get the job done. He has more integrity than any other part of the media has had since the Pentagon papers came out.
Just look at the difference between reporting on the War in Vietnam and the War in Iraq. The fealty is absolutely fucking pathetic.
I can just see some "accidental" leaks from the RIAA and MPAA proving they lost 5 trillion dollars last year alone due to piracy... etc...
Sorry but that the GP said is absolutely correct.
You cannot fight a ground war against insurgents who would sooner use their own grandma as a human shield than give up. These people are not moral men. They cannot be reasoned with.
You cannot run everything like a open source project with full transparency.
The GP is not attacking any specific person posting here directly but rather stating their own point of view. If you think that what he says is wrong, post a reply and provide links to backup your assertions. Do not abuse your mod points.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
this morning, onyxruby was seen eating cereal. what's next, eating babies?
slippery slope arguments are FUN!!!
Conscience or Ego? There is an old intelligence maxim (that Tom Clancy has put in his books) that the reasons people betray trust, commit treason, and so on are MICE: Money, Ideology, Conscience, and Ego. It is quite a true maxim (hence its endurance).
So what's his motivating factor? Probably not money, it isn't like he's getting rich off this. Probably not ideology either. Possibly, but he doesn't act like an ideologue so he's either not or is real good at hiding it. That leaves just conscience and ego.
Supports claim conscience, of course. He is a moral man doing what he believes is right and necessary, despite the risks. However it could be ego too, he does it because it stokes his ego and makes him feel powerful and important, and attack those who he feels has wronged him in some way.
So what's it matter? Well it matters because that will determine the quality of information that gets leaked, what sort of decision making process goes on. The MICE maxim is not important only in terms of counterintelligence, making sure people don't give up information, but in terms of evaluating your intelligence assets. It is important to understand what motivates them because that will tell you the quality and kind of information you get. They won't tell you everything, and will outright make shit up. Understanding what motivates them can tell you when those things happen.
Same deal applies here. If he is acting out of ego, then the quality and nature of what we get shown will be very different then if he acts out of conscience.
So what's wrong with an agenda? News for you my friend - everyone has an agenda. You wouldn't get out of bed in the morning if you didn't have an agenda. It's ok to want something.
What that something is - that is the important thing.
Simply having an agenda though isn't a crime. We're not machines. Everyone has desires and opinions.
Agenda isn't a dirty word.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
they are exposing kidnappings, tortures, murders, warmongers, bank scammers, fraudsters,
and youre saying 'assange is doing shameles self promotion'.
what the fuck are you on ? and some witless fool modded it interesting ? why ? because some idiot thinks that world governments betraying their countries' founding ideals, kidnapping, torturing people and then threatening ALLIES about it, is not important?
a major bank fraud, of the global scale, extinguishing so many homes and bankrupting families like the wall street scam, is not important ?
just what is your angle ? are you just another right wing nutjob ? you cant handle that some guy does THIS much against your government ? or jealous ?
or, are you a witless moron that cant understand that if he hadnt put himself in the spotlight, he would be already dead by a roadside and noone would know it ?
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In the final analysis, Assange only reports what is. If the politicians of the world can't handle that, the problem is with the politicians , not Mr. Assange.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Poor bankers! ROFLMAO!
US Gov and others are pissed because they're getting their pants pulled down.
It's a little more like they've been put in a porno scanner at the airport.
Reply to That ||
What is the difference between a bunch of terrorists who fly planes into building to cripple the US economy and an international collection of finance executives and bankers with the same intent? Both are using the tools at hand to cause the disruption of as many lives as possible with the goal of bringing in a new world order, but the folks who sit on interlocking company boards of multinationals are doing it solely to enrich themselves, while Mr. Assange hopes to prevent the impoverishment of the world's troublesome middle-class population who feel they deserve a decent living and basic human rights.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
We, the people, have Credit Scores to keep us honest. Businesses can post behavioral information about the people, affecting their credit scores. But, people get sued for slander and libel if they don't appreciate the business, and post behaviors of the business. Look at the Class Action Lawsuits going on right now; and that the telephone companies want to use arbitration to reduce the lawsuits.
Wikileaks simply levels the playing field. It is kinda like Big Brother watching Big Brother!
excuse me but it is evident that you had had no interest in defense industry up till today. i had.
and let me wake you up to a fact - since 1970s, hiding anything became impossible. from echelon to spy satellites, from extensive agent networks in 3rd party countries to other kinds of interest networks, ALL prominent countries now know whatever other prominent countries are doing. to the point of knowing at what hour rotates a certain obscure watchtower's guards in some country, some location. objects smaller than 1 meters can be spied on with spy satellites. and im not even talking about digital spying, or, the new listening methods. (like, how you can eavesdrop a landline phone connection with a small electronic implement from 2-3 kilometers away, without doing nothing but monitoring magnetic fluctuations in a device or a cable).
and, proxies of those countries, satellites, also know whatever their 'allies' let them know. so, everyone knows, what everyone is doing.
ONLY ones out of the loop still, are the CITIZENS. us. 'we, the people'.
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I hope he has exceedingly good protection because he has managed to alienate, if not infuriate the US and supposed allies. Now, he is hurting company stock prices with the notion that something bad might come out of these leaks. Add on top of that the pharma and energy companies that he will now be pissing off. I support what he is doing, but this guy is really building up a lot of enmity towards him from very powerful and rich people in the world. If he manages to survive this, he is never going to be able to stop running.
Because a basement dweller like yourself will never leave your parent's house to actually go out and make a difference in the world. You will continue to let anyone shit on you.
Is who the first people were up against the wall when the revolution came.
Otherwise this will just come and go, small things will change, new bosses will replace old bosses and the world will move on.
Eventually the United States will decline enough that it enters a post "world ruler" state much like Europe has and we'll get a new dictatorship of culture, likely from East or Southeast Asia. Will it be a bloody or violent change? Only time will tell.
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
Nowhere does Mr. Assange say he is trying to prevent the impovershment of the world's middle-class population. His actions will have the exact opposite effect, because the wealthy will be able to wish stand the economic fallout caused by Mr. Assange's antics. How many millionaires were laid off when the world wide recession occurred? Not, too many, I bet. However, the middle class sure lost their jobs. Mr. Assange has his own agenda and wants to push it. How is that different than governments who want to push theirs or corporations who want to push theirs? Mr. Assange is not releasing news, he is releasing information, which not placed into it's proper context can be quite harmful. Reputable news organizations do not trickle out stories, they research and validate the information and if it appears news worthy, they publish it. Wikileaks normal operation seems to be to acquire some documents (lots of documents), whether legally or not, and to release them regardless of the whether they are news worthy or not.
Check out Chiquita Banana and their behavior in South America for an example of how corporations really act.
Why was this modded down as a troll? We have terrorists who blow things up. We have eco-terrorists who destroy the environment. And we have cyber-terrorists who use computers to do their work. All three have the same purpose, to get society to change. Some would argue that at least eco-terrorist want to better the environment, but the data doesn't support that. When the terrorists flew the planes into the WTC, the lives they took were incidental to their goal of collapsing the US economy. The people on the planes and in the towers were just collateral damage, at least to the terrorists. Likewise, when eco-terrorists put spikes in trees to destroy the saws, the lumberjack who loses an eye or a limb or even their live are collateral damage, not the intended target. So, Wikileaks is going to release more documents and likewise ignores the collateral damage they/he will inflict on a lot of innocent bystanders. Remember, he said he wants to rewrite history -- so that begs the questions how is his cyber-terrorism any different than any other form of terrorism?
Bank of America has been downright criminal in some of its conduct. I recently refinanced my mortgage and closed all of my accounts just to get from under those clowns. I've suspected that a lot of their dishonest conduct has been common business practice, now I'm sure I'll have that confirmed. Things I've seen happen:
* Deposits delayed to trigger overdraft charges.
* Flat out lied to about my escrow account size. They forced me to pay about $600 to "settle" the balance, then realized they made a "mistake" that took about 8 months to correct, netting me $1100 including $500 I was owed in the first place.
* Steering me into a trap credit card when I wanted a vehicle loan. First payment was a day late and my interest rate exploded.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
to wait until after bonuses have been paid out!
I can't help wondering if this practice of releasing secret info for all to see is more harmfull to democracies then it is to more authoritive regimes. If you get caught releasing secretive info in a democracy you'll get jailed. Do the same in a lot of different regimes, you get shot, hanged, stoned or whatever. I'm not pleading against Wikileaks: I'm all for openness in all parts of life and yes if you see through a lot of things you realise that it's a nasty nasty world out there. However let's all realise that there indeed might be a plan behind this all, and that plan might have nothing to do with "revealing the truth"... My ancient history teacher learned me to look at all things from a "Cui bonum" perspective (who has benefits from situation x). So however you twist it, for now it's been mostly anti-American/anti-Western forces that do benefit from the disclosures. At this point in history Western society still (allthough on the decline) rules the world. There's bound to be lots of dirt on whoever rules the world. Worst case scenario Western society will adapt and try to "play nice" all the time, however we don't live in a nice world and the benefit might be in the hands of those that don't play nice. Lions don't catch their prey by smiling at it... There's a big difference between "moral reality" and "reality". The upcoming release of info on "big corporations" is very interesting. Still i wonder, will there also be dirt on say Mittal Steel or Gazprom, or will it be only western corporations?
there goes his credit rating...
Thus the big war with Iraq, and probably this also may have something to do with the other Middle-eastern states desire to neutralize Iran
What makes you think Wikileaks has the resources to acquire, vet, and redact a mountain of information for release with just the right timing? It seems clear to me they'll do what they can when they can.
Wow.
Reputable News Organizations. Are those related to Santa Clause and Jesus?
Here's a little dose of reality: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2870
Newsflash. "Reputable news organizations" are little more than propaganda mills for the wealthy. In time, they will gain control of the internet too.
I hope you enjoy the new economic feudalism, but somehow I'm guessing you're going to be just another serf that goes by the name of "employee."
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I think the GP is using targeting in the sense that Assange might be attacking one organization but holding fire on others. For example, if he has information that both a US bank and a Swiss bank are up to no good, but he only release the information on the US bank, then he's targeting one instead of the other. That could very much invalidate his neutrality.
I don't know if Assange is doing this, but it'd be bad if he were (unless it's only because he lacks the resources to target more than one organization at a time).
then whose behavior we are going to assume instead ? those who watch fox ?
/. has some iq requirement to use, AND it is a specific-interest that could attract people who actually have cognitive powers.
at least
if not in this place, then where, will those americans who are wise and aware enough be found ?
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I won't comment on JA personally agenda; however
the press has many of these documents already. He is working with them so the get released in an orderly manner. If he dumped them all at once, 95% of then would get lost in the noise.
The way he is doing it is the best way to ensure the light is shined on all of them.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You are welcome to your opinion as am I, however, you still have not shown anything to support your view of Mr. Assange's altruism in what he is doing.
You mean this hasn't been released yet? Could it be the result of a WikiLeaks leak?
He's hardly getting rich on this, and have you noticed that he continues to do this at rather significant personal risk?
If not altruism, what do you consider his motivation to be?
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
"That doesn't mean we WOULDN'T be the better off for having such a presumably corrupt entity gone."
Tricksy double negatives.
Your brain is not a computer.
Other-than-Islam in Western countries, or Islam in Islamic countries? Which would you feel safer doing: insulting the Pope in the Vatican, or insulting Mohammed in Saudi Arabia?
..so we need people like Assange, flawed though he may be, to expose what's really going on
"It would be trivial for Assange to filter information and only display leaks that would damage the country of his choice."
Guess what? It's trivial for The New York Times to do that too.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
He's hardly getting rich on this, and have you noticed that he continues to do this at rather significant personal risk?
If not altruism, what do you consider his motivation to be?
The fact that he is foolish about what and how he releases and therefore puts his life in jeopardy does not make his motives altruistic nor does the fact that he does not seem to be able to capitalise on the process for personal gain.
Since he, himself, states that his purpose is to rewrite history and usher in a new order of things, his motives seem no more altruistic than the governments and corporations he is reporting on.
At least when the Washington papers were released, it was to stop the coverup about the war. Likewise, the Watergate papers were about the coverup being conducted by then President Nixon's administration. But releasing the diplomatic cables and the proposed new banking and pharmaceutical documents don't compare. The purpose may be to expose a coverup (at least in the banking and pharmaceuticals), but for what end?
Plus in the Washington and Watergate papers, the only people put in harms way were the very people responsible for the coverup. That can't be said in these recent releases of the cables or promised releases of banking and pharmaceuticals. There purpose, again according to him, himself, is to disrupt peoples confidence in the banking system. What is the effect of that -- worldwide recession. Definitely not altruistic.
Why does Julian and his gang broadcast their upcoming leaks? Wouldn't it be less stressful to just put them out there and let the shit hit the fan? I mean, what's the use of attracting the wrath of megacorps prematurely?
Why do you think it helps calm things down? I would guess it makes the situation worse. DPRK now knows it can't trust china to back it up, especially not after the death of Kim Jong-il, so they might try to set a balance of terror on their own, forcing them to first show how dangerous they are...
What email service do you think these guys use, Hotmail or yahoo? I'd imagine to be safe they should probably use gmail or mail.com.
"I see London, I see France. I see Uncle Sam in his underpants!" - And yes, I *AM* retaining full copyrights on that! 11/30/2010
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
this guy is going to end up dead within the next 2 years. Releasing all this private information is going to make him a lot of enemies, if it hasnt already. Now he wants to go after the Russian government? Good luck with that.
Hey Spun, good question.
To answer your question, in my view of the world there IS Justice, and there should be hope of it. The debate between you and BlueLucidFox, and between Rakuen and CheekyJohnson (and touched on by others in this thread - never thought I'd spawn an actual serious, good discussion here) touched on a couple of key elements that I personally believe in: Justice, and Balance.
I believe that Justice must be tempered with Balance (or Mercy, if you will). Yes, there is corruption. Yes, there is evil. And yes, we should always be vigilant in monitoring for, exposing of, and protecting the instruments of our society from those elements. We have to be exact and thorough in our safeguarding, and spend the time and effort to verify if there is corruption/evil, how far has it spread, what must be done to fix the problem, and what preventions do we need to have in place. To do so is hard, and takes time and resources.
However, it is also wrong of people to smear our entire social structure with the insinuation that all those in authority are corrupt (without proof) and then insist on tearing down everything -- and conveniently rebuilding with themselves in charge. At that point, all we've done is exchange the Devil we know for the Devil we don't, and all too often the new Devil is exactly the same as the old-all he did was switch suits. Justice without Mercy leaves us wide open to such actions. It takes Mercy to realize that we don't have to destroy the whole system, just prune the parts that need pruning.
Hope that answers your question?
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Well, I'm going to crack open a beer and laugh my ass off at YOU, because you, as you are obviously an ubermensch and superior to everyone else on this planet, have to put up with and live under the government/society we mensch "deserve".
How does it feel to have to live and deal with us peons, every day of your life? To be surrounded by such idiots, knowing that your brilliance and superiority will never, ever go noticed, or that you'll ever make a bit of difference in this world? Bet it feels pretty good, doesn't it.
Have fun trolling tonight... I'm sure you'll have no problem finding plenty of targets
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
They check everything before publishing to make sure it's original material. And with their rising profile the submissions have gone up so much that they can not really keep track of it.
Read the linked interview - it's quite interesting.
Big disclosure to you but common knowlege for anyone that has talked to somebody from the north of China about the subject. There are a lot of North Korean refugees living in China.
At some point down the line, all power is given by individuals to other individuals. Even if someone is holding a gun to your head (and they're not), you still have a choice as to what you are going to do next.
Up until the point where you allow a corporation or government to install mind-control into your brain, you are in charge of your life.
Or... you can go ahead and think that we are all fucked and everything is hopeless. If that's the case, then you are a direct agent of the totalitarians, and you are every bit as evil as them.
I hate grammar Nazis, but please, for the love of God, use the damn shift key. Something resembling capitalization really makes it easier to read what you have to say.
This leak was a win for both the US and China. It gets the word out that China isn't going to back any stupid actions by Kim Jong-il. without China's leadership having to say so publicly. This helps calm the situation down.
Well, that's what you think is going to be the outcome here, and that there won't be any associated ill effects from North Korea feeling alienated by China. I presume you're an expert on Chinese and Korean affairs who is familiar enough with the intricacies involved to know that this is the highly likely outcome, with no unforseen nasty repurcussions. Oddly other people who are also experts on the situation apparently deemed that making the information public was not helpful -- or else they would have made it public. I'm glad we can rely on your authoritative analysis, and can safely ignore decisions made by others who have also spent their entire careers studying the delicate politics of the region. I mean, I presume this is your career right?
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
They already know that and the Chinese guy on the street knows that. The North Korean guy on the street is not even allowed to hear what graddad says about the old days so they won't find out. The only thing that has changed here is that you know.
They just fucked up. They should have not announced this so soon, in fact not announced it until they had the info ready. The US government has borders and all they can do is pester other nations.
US banks, well, the banks run the US government, and most banks collude with each other, and tend to own many foreign banks as well.
All a US bank would have to do is find out who owns the mortgage on wherever wikileaks is hosted, and repossess the data center or the building it exists in, and cut the data cables. Even if it's outside the US, they could get one of their other branches out.
Oh, and it will be more likely that every bank that does business in the US will now want wikileaks taken out. Dicking with a Government is one thing, dicking with multinationals that are often deeply involved with world affairs and trade laws, I wouldnt be surprised that within the next few months, emergency legislature hits every single western nation to create new restrictive laws on the internet, and to filter out questionable and "criminal" sites that "promote terrorism" The forefront of this being the United states, and will block or suspend wikileaks' website, much like torrent-finder found out. At this point, those in government have nothing to lose, and given the reaction many in the US have had towards the leak, they now realize they can go on ahead with further restrictive laws against the people and they will not only take it, but will love it because it protects them from that scary world full of bad guys.
We were always at war with eastasia. Julian Assange will be the Emmanuel Goldstein of our new government.
I don't think this is the change they have in mind.
We've been complaining for years about the Internet killing privacy. Now secrecy will die with it.
Anymore wikileaks seems to be releasing mass quantities of trivial grand standing type information that has no affect on anything. I'm not quite sure what they're trying to prove anymore. They aren't going to save the world from itself and I don't think anyone is listening anymore. They do seem to be compromising individuals without concern for consequences. Kind of like what I think they started out to accomplish.
Here we are, semi-anonymous group of people, many of us working for some big corporation, some of us knowing something that should be made public...
Corporations are made of people; they are made of us. We can do something to make things right (or wrong). We can at least tell the world if something's not right and will not be made right unless it's brought to daylight.
I still can't decide whether Kristopeit### is a troll, a simple idiot or a horribly failed AI experiment. And btw - your mom is kind of fun, actually ;)
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
The logic goes like this:
Britain is governed by an old German woman who wears a gold hat and only got the job because of who her father was.
That's not very meritocratic, is it?
The USA is not governed by a geriatric jerry, and therefore it stands to reason that it's the most meritocratic nation evaar.
Now don't go bringing up stuff like Intergenerational Income Correlations. We all know you can prove anything with facts!
[To get the full Sheik Yerbouti effect, randomly join groups of two or three sentences together, sprinkle liberally with apostrophes and place under a hot grill for two minutes]
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
bothering to 'pre-announcing' leaks that threaten huge power structures such a corrupt banks (redundancy warning). No better way to get yourself got. Just release the data without the grandstanding - unless their real motivation really is nothing but attention-whoring.
Too much wool gets pulled over our eyes by these banking cos. which are obviously closely tied to our economy so therefor governments will give a lot of leeway, much more then you could ever imagine. For once we shall see just how much leeway they get, and just how big some of the blunders have been. Would also be nice for us to develop a committee that can govern these entities separately then regular cos and present government bodies, as such, too many greased palms are making these errors never see the light of day, yet can all be too dangerous and even catastrophic to our economy at times.
Though this well known verse was probably quite relevant at it's time of writing, it still says it all rather well.
http://bible.cc/ephesians/6-12.htm GREAT site I found looking up this scripture:
New International Version (©1984)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
International Standard Version (©2008)
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is not a wrestling match against a human opponent. We are wrestling with rulers, authorities, the powers who govern this world of darkness, and spiritual forces that control evil in the heavenly world.
King James Bible
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
Please scroll down at the above link to the commentaries and analysis. Simply must reading for anyone wanting insight.
When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11
There will be a comeuppance.
by all means, please. do your 'comeuppance'. forgetting that 200+ other countries around the world have also their 'ups' that can 'come' at any moment.
Read radical news here
Why do you think they knew it? This information was leaked from the US, this is something PRC told to some US diplomat. I would assume they told the DPRK something on the lines of "we can't keep with you if you won't calm down". Not "we think your country should be joined to the south", especially since the south is twice as big (population) and the government will stay in Seoul in this case.
Because I've had many discussions on this topic with several people from China. The PRC told some US diplomat something that probably a couple of hundred million people could have told them or that they could have read in a Chinese newspaper.
Banks own 60% of the property and wealth in the US. They have been publicly leveraging that massive wealth to drive up the prices of everything they own to sell off, like De'Beers does with diamonds except with shelter, and forcing people into homelessness. If that is their publicly known business model, aren't you curious to find out what they have been hiding?
If banks own 60% of the property and have the power to force people into homelessness it's only because people give it to them willingly. You have choices when you obtain shelter, you can rent, pay the full asking price, get a land contract with a private party, or get into bed with a bank.
It used to be people only bought a house when they could afford to put the thing up themselves or with the help of neighbors. They were ashamed if they had to take a small mortgage. Now people willingly take the largest mortgage they can get, whether they can afford it or not, to buy the largest house they can get, whether they need it or not, and then picket when they are forclosed upon. And banks don't actually have the power to force people into homelessness. People have choices to downsize and get a small apartment before it goes that far. Mortgages are actually set up so that the bank can't call for all the money unless you chose a really dumb balloon product. Instead, all they can ask for is the monthly payment. Of course, many people did ask for or get sold a balloon mortgage, but that's a whole other set of bad decisions on both sides in many cases.
Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of blame to be had on the mortgage and financial industry side for being corrupt and morally bankrupt, but there's plenty of blame for the other side as well. People willingly chose to enter into bad situations. When we forget about personal responsibility, we get bad outcomes on both sides, with corrupt businesses and bad decisions by executives and consumers encouraged by bailouts for everyone.
currently i am. for, im seeing that the SANE people in america, who we can take as reasonable, peaceful, decent human beings whose mind is not always concentrated on their self-interest, are in the minority.
change that with your votes, and ill be pro-america.
Read radical news here
HE's a traitor?
Yeah, as if "bankers" can't afford a couple years off without income...
I think it would be poetic justice for all the years of raping and pillaging of their customers.
Oh and being born in the US automatically gives one a magical moral compass, right?
As if... LMAO
There is nothing to blame on the "other side" at all.
The simple fact of the matter is that the banking industry can remove enough houses on the market, keeping them abandoned, that the demand is extremely high.
And your argument totally ignores many fiscal realities, first of all, you live where the jobs are, the slightest change in housing prices has a dramatic effect on rental values, less than 10% of the country can afford the asking price on a house at any point in their life. You would have to save up for at least 15 years, and considering how housing prices have been rising in the past 50 years, the expectation is that in 15 years you would only have a tiny percent of the new cost.
Really, it all has to do with location, supply and demand. Demand is absolutely static, supply is controlled enough by banks that they control prices, and can force people out of areas and into others. Banks can affect negative social change, they can create ghettos, they can cause areas of low property value and dangerous neighborhoods to essentially remove people who aren't generally qualified to protect themselves in shitty areas out of the market for areas, their power is ridiculous, and the simple fact is that most of the property that isn't owned by banks is in the country, but the jobs are in the cities, where the banks own the vast majority of the property, giving them so much control over supply that they have more power over cities that local, state, and national governments combined.
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
There is nothing to blame on the "other side" at all.
Clearly you haven't even tried or are unable to understand the points I have made. Try reading some non biased sources and/or evaluate the bias of the sources you are reading and come to your own conclusions. Try looking for the percentage of people that bought mortgages at the maximum size they could qualify for before the bust vs people that chose to buy less. Try looking at what percentage of income the mortgage was and what percentage of income total debt is. Try looking at the average square footage that a family bought from 1900 to 2010. People were buying houses that they wouldn't be able to afford to keep if they were out of work for a single month. That's not responsibility.
The simple fact of the matter is that the banking industry can remove enough houses on the market, keeping them abandoned, that the demand is extremely high.
No they can't. If demand was that high, builders can build more, even in large cities you can build up. It's also not entirely a matter of jobs being only in metropolises. There are plenty of opportunities in smaller towns.
The rest of your post is just ridiculous. Banks don't have the power to do those things if people don't give it to them. People have the choice to rent or buy a smaller place, get qualified for higher paying jobs that give them more choices and more discretionary income. Instead, a large number of people chose mortgages they couldn't afford. That combined with very bad choices and corruption in the financial industry led to problems for more people.
I understood the crappy, incorrect points you tried to make very well. It is just that they were indeed crappy and incorrect.
Yes, people did buy houses outside what they should have been buying, but they were told, very explicitely, that they would be able to afford them. The banks made arguments for increasing wages and growing economies and told people they had nothing to worry about. Was it stupid of people to buy them? yes, but it is also stupid to fall for a scam artists trick, that doesn't make the scam artist any less guilty. Especially considering they played houses as investments, telling people that their house would increase in value, so if they were in danger of losing their house they could sell it and make a profit. Scam artists to the bone.
Also, look at the average home price per square foot from 1900 until 2008, and compare that to the increase in income from 1900 to 2008. The latter will be much smaller than the former, by at least a single order of magnitude, if not by two. If you don't understand the problems that causes, you don't deserve to be having this debate.
They absolutely can, the primary mortgage bank in my area is currently was holding 30 homes off the market last year, prices increased locally and they sold a couple of them at the increased price. It is easy to control the markets when you control supply, and in the area I live in right now most people have to walk to where they work to get there, so living further away isn't an option, they either buy the more expensive property, or they can't take the job. And building up in the city is extremely expensive and takes a large amount of capital to do, it is typically only done where property values are off the charts.
Yes, small towns have jobs, but very few compared to urban areas. There are far more businesses and industries in cities than in small towns.
Also, if you can't comprehend the expense of a higher education or training program for the average person, if you honestly believe it trivial, then you are more out of touch with the average american than anyone else in the top 5% of the country, and you aren't even qualified to give bigoted commentary on the subject.
Banks derive their power from ownership of physical capital. They have the goods, and they hate the goods in the location you need them to be at. You either buy from the bank, or you don't buy at all, and you either spend 50+ years saving up for a cheap house, or you get a mortgage. Banks have the power because they have the physical capital that you need, and you don't. If people had the capital, they wouldn't need banks and could get buy without them, but they don't, so they need to use banks for these things. And sure, you can get smaller places to an extent, but property values are ridiculous even for small houses and tiny apartments in some places, for example, a studio apartment in DC can cost you upwards of 1,000 a month, but where I live you can get a full 2 bedroom for half that, but of course I live a good 1000 miles away from there. To get an apt. under 750 a month, you would have to live at least 100 miles from DC, and even then it is a very slim maybe, and you then have to have a car you can rely on, and be able to afford gas, repairs , and parking.
Also, you don't lose your house on a mortgage until you haven't paid for two years, when it enters a state of default. Simple fact is that people need a place to sleep, shower, and store things like clothes.
He who controls the spice...
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
I understood the crappy, incorrect points you tried to make very well. It is just that they were indeed crappy and incorrect.
Ah, yes, the tactics of someone that can't defend the logic of their arguments so resorts to childishness.
Yes, people did buy houses outside what they should have been buying, but they were told, very explicitely, that they would be able to afford them. The banks made arguments for increasing wages and growing economies and told people they had nothing to worry about. Was it stupid of people to buy them? yes, but it is also stupid to fall for a scam artists trick, that doesn't make the scam artist any less guilty.
Indeed, as I said, there was plenty of blame on the mortgage industry side. But consumers didn't have to fall for it hook line and sinker, they have brains and could have decided otherwise. Instead they went with greed and bought what they couldn't really afford. But at least you've acceded my point that consumers made mistakes too and bought houses they shouldn't have. The rest of your post essentially goes on to prove the rest of my original points. As for the expense of higher education, I paid for all of mine out of my pocket, so I know exactly the costs of it.
lol, thats funny. A lot of times morons I debate try to pull that card, but it doesn't matter if I flame you, as long as I actually cover the necessary points. That argument only works when the other person doesn't also attack your logic and arguments on a definite manner.
And lets face it, when you lie to consumers, they generally believe you. You tell them, nay promise them that rates won't increase, sell them an APR they can afford, watch it rise by 2 percent and become unaffordable, etc. Sure, some customers made mistakes, but only a small percent of them.
And nothing I said proved anything you said in any way. Sure, you paid for your education out of pocket, but how do you think people who attended shit schools in the city who live in families with no credit to borrow on, how do you suppose they get magically more educated? Rob a bank? Rob a title-max? I mean, I listed plenty of valid reasons why banks can control markets and essentially control entire markets, not to mention controlling the livelihood of the economy by controlling how much money they lend, and how expensive the cost of living is for a typical person.
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,