Slashdot Mirror
Congresswoman and Staff Gunned Down
tkprit writes "What a shame that a Congresswoman makes herself available to her constituents and she and six of her staff were gunned down for the effort. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot, along with members of her staff, for trying to hear the concerns of the people she represents."
CNN reports that at least 12 people were shot by the gunman. According to NPR, "The suspect ran off and was tackled by a bystander. He was taken into custody. Witnesses described him as in his late teens or early 20s." Update: 01/08 20:07 GMT by S : Other sources are reporting she's still in surgery, and early reports have been amended to list Congresswoman Giffords in critical condition.
Their only reason is to kill people. Just ban guns already.
Check out the comments on there.
Living With a Nerd
Or so says yahoo news.
http://yhoo.it/hBMCx6
Yeah, I'll say it. Now someone needs to shoot a few Republican senators to even out the score.
How is this news for nerds? Oh yes...Slashdot is evolving into a generic news source.
Right now there are conflicting reports on whether she is dead. There are reports that she is in surgery. In either case, this is an absolute tragedy.
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Albert Einstein
Killing a lot of people as a consequence of being an asshole is just a very American thing to do. This incidentally very well illustrates the point that a small number of assholes (say, below 1%) can mess it up for everybody. It also illustrates the point that better politicians have worse career chances.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
is this guy affiliated with American Extremist Groups? People should be more concerned about American Terrorists more than any others.
"I feel happy" - Gabrielle Giffords
Republicans are sore losers.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
There are a few politicians whom should be killed. When a few have played a large part in bankrupting a nation of 300 million, death is a small price. It is unfortunate they can not be killed many times.
I hope she pulls through. I went to college with her husband Mark's twin brother Scott
that works.
Read radical news here
I laugh at the "progressives" here who were waiting to jump on the GOP for this. First off, now isn't the time for politics. Secondly, the early reports are that the suspect is hispanic and shoutted something in another language (presumabbly spanish if they are hispanic) before the shooting. Gifford had been targeting the drug cartels and illegal immigrants.
Multiple sources, including a spokesman for the Tucson University Medical Center, are saying she is alive and in surgery, albeit in critical condition.
FC Closer
It is incredibly sad that people are mouthing off their vile political views even before all the facts are in.
They don't care that this lady, and her staff members, were killed and/or severely wounded. They just want to exploit this horrible event for their own ends.
The vast majority are sockpuppet trolls, of course, but even then...people have absolutely not shame when it comes to anonymous discussion of politics
Like watching an episode of "evidence of revision" being made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riHY9Ik-Uoo
- In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
1. She's not dead.
2. It's definitely wrong that she was shot.
3. She voted for the healthcare bill despite knowing that 67% of her constituents opposed it. She's no "representative." Just a political whackjob.
Condolences for those who died. May justice be served.
E
...everyone here on Slashdot would be cheering, wanting to throw parties with virtual high-fives, and yelling "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!" at their computer.
Unfortunately this situation shouldn't happen to anyone Democrat or Republican.
Indeed, Gun Crime is much, much worse in those countries where guns are banned.
I assume that this statement is intended to be sarcastic, right? You are surely aware that this isn't true.
You should be aware that sarcasm and irony tend to be invisible on the internet.
Reports are that she got shot in the head.
Even if she were in critical condition but still alive, if she makes it, she's probably going to have long term brain damage that will keep her from working at McDonalds much less working in the House(No, now is not the time for jokes about brain damaged people in Congress).
This is purely political terrorism egged on by a political party that doesn't seem to have a human heart, in particular, Sarah Palin.
When people say, "There's no difference in the parties." no, there is. And this is it. The Weather Underground put down their weapons in the 70's and 80's. Yet the Birchers still go on. God bless America. God damn America.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Representative Giffords is the wife of astronaut Mark Kelly, and seems to be one of the few congresspeople who are knowledgable about science and technology.
This is a great tragedy.
Politics should not be conducted by gunfire.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Before everyone starts speculating on why this was done and politics etc etc. Try to remember that people were killed and their families and they did not deserve such a thing regardless of your political affiliations. This doesn't solve anything.
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords isn't particularly liberal but is one of the 20 in Congress "in Sarah Palin's crosshairs" for her vote on health care reform. I don't know the motives or mental state of the shooter, then again people could have said the same thing during 9/11...in this instance, look at the target, look at the political climate. Sure, many times it's the most unstable people who take the final step but they obviously pick up on signals from all the vitriol. That particular brand is simply more prevalent on the Right (or at the very least, more "popular" in media). And yes, any knee jerk reaction with gun control ideas would be completely misguided.
the rest 11 ? all of you are asking and updating about the congresswoman. what about the 11 other people ? ffs.
Read radical news here
Crazy, paranoid, murderous people exist in every society - in all subcultures, in all religions, in all age groups (with the capability to express it), across all education levels, etc.
The problems we've been having in the US, as I see it, largely spring from ignoring this, and forcing every response to a tragedy to be an implication of any groups they belong to.
Are republicans or tea party members responsible for this act? That's a misleading question. Neither answer leads to a meaningful result - and only forces us to alienate eachother further, resulting in more tragedy.
If we are to avoid having every response wedge us further into madness, the shame of such tragedies, the murder of well-meaning and innocent people, must be a problem that we all have to solve, rather than a point of blame we use as a tool.
Does the frequent madness expressed the tea party help? No - but that's all of our problem, and it isn't going to be solved just by mocking them as an enemy, or thinking of them only as monsters who kill people.
Any of us could find ourselves romanticizing violence, like the tea partiers (the legend of the tea party IS one of violence) and other folks. There but for the grace of chance go any of us.
Insanity is not something we can every 'get even' for - whether it is terrorists or confused local murderers. We can only rebuild, and work together to be able to live in a way that makes it ever less likely, while knowing that freedom will always allow it in one way or another.
Ryan Fenton
This just popped up in yahoo news. There are conflicting reports on whether she's dead or in surgery.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Seems somebody looked at the gun sights on this http://www.alan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sarahpac_0.jpg and acted on it. Scary.
"What a shame, [third term politician] gunned down"
Seems to imply a bad thing.
I hope this starts the revolution the US needs and which the world needs the US to have.
I do not see any way out except through violence and misery, in my book the killer is a hero.
I am so sorry, it is horrible but also unavoidable. The longer it takes to happen, and it has taken far too long as is, the worse it will be for all.
Maybe it is already too late, then we are all doomed either way.
Need more of those paranoid Blackwater types with full tactical gear and long rifles in plain view.
Regardless of her political party, regardless of YOUR political party, we did not need this. We are all, on both sides of the aisle, diminished when this happens.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It's a complete and utter lie, intended to deflect blame from the responsible party onto everyone's favorite scapegoat, "some hispanic guy". Witnesses at the scene described the attacker "as a white male in his mid-20s with short hair and “dressed in a shabby manner." Furthermore, they report that "the congresswoman was standing behind a table outside the Safeway greeting passersby when the gunman approached her from behind, held a gun about a foot from her head and began firing." No mention of any shouting.
you preach hate, you get hate. you preach violence, you get violence
a certain unnamed political movement is reaping what it sows
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There are reports on Twitter that the rightwing Free Republic website has crashed because of celebratory messages about the shooting from its contributors. It's hard to confirm this, but I couldn't get to the site about 10 minutes ago.
"What would men be without women? Scarce, sir. Mighty scarce."- Mark Twain
Giffords was talking to a couple when the suspect ran up firing indiscriminately and then ran off, Michaels said.
Like TJIC says: "It is absolutely, absolutely unacceptable to shoot 'indiscriminately'. Target only politicians and their staff, and leave regular citizens alone."
There's no place like
Not dead, but according to the New York Times report, it doesn't sound good. This is not a minor injury:
Dr. Steven Rayle, a former emergency room doctor who now works in a hospice, said that he had witnessed the shootings. He said the congresswoman was standing behind a table outside the Safeway greeting passersby when the gunman approached her from behind, held a gun about a foot from her head and began firing.
. “He must have got off 20 rounds,” he said. Ms. Giffords slumped to the ground and staff members immediately rushed to her aid, Dr. Rayle said.
Dr. Rayle said he performed CPR on some of the victims. He said one of the victims was a young child and appeared to be in critical condition with a gunshot wound.
link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Politicians lead the state who's existance is predicated on the threat of initiation of violence against people
For example if people don't pay taxes (of which there is no moral obligation) to the state they will be imprisoned.
If they resist imprisonment (they havent done any harm to anyone) then they will be met with violence
If the resist violence (self defence) they will be killed
state violence against the individual = ACCEPTABLE
individual violence against the state = UNACCEPTABLE
You're making a lot of assumptions by claiming Republicans did this. Why not wait until you actually know something about what happened to make partisan comments that may very well be lies.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
It's just flamebait by nature.
You'll get some really far, far right wing nuts saying "good".
You'll get left wing nuts trying to instantly make political hay from it.
And you'll get the usual assortment of gun grabbers.
Then they'll all argue with each other.
wow
How so? She's a minor member of a minority party.
Um, since the Democrats hold two out of three of the elective branches of the US government, I don't see how you can call them "a minority party."
She is also the wife of astronaut Mark Kelly, a member of the House committee on Science and Technology, and the chairwoman of the House subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics; so this is news of interest to anybody interested in science and technology.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Yeah, palin nuked her "kill these 20 democrats site." guess she got one.
How much you wanna bet the governor puts a Republican in for the soon-oo-be-braindead Democrat !!
How much !!
Gawker.com is reporting that the shooter was a clean-shaven, short-haired white male in his mid-to-late-twenties, wearing dark clothing, so where you get the notion that it was a hispanic male and why u mention it so prominently is left to be figured out by people who dont have an agenda, against progressives and hispanics I guess.
If you ban guns in America then the people doing the daily killings in Juarez Mexico will spill over into New Mexico and nearby Arizona and start killing and robbing people like fish in a barrel, helpless to defend themselves.
Sure, guns can create violence if used in violent ways, and bad people do just that, but don't be so naive as to think that if we throw down our guns the rest of the world will follow suit.
That his twitter account info was given to the government.
He could have gone after twitter, but they just have to follow the law...
He could have gone after the DOJ, but again, they just follow orders...
He went after someone from Congress, the people who make the laws... sounds about right.
Get on Target for Victory in November. Help Remove Gabrielle Giffords from Office. Shoot a Fully Automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21
This sounds an awful lot like incitement to commit murder. Is there any chance this tough guy will get charged?
I spent the last election cycle hearing about 2nd Amendment remedies and how we've got to keep the members of congress in our crosshairs.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions but, quite frankly the last election cycle made me a little you know, jumpy.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
No matter how many votes you got to get in, it only takes one "vote" to take you out.
Shh.
This is purely political terrorism egged on by a political party that doesn't seem to have a human heart, in particular, Sarah Palin.
This may have earned the flamebait mod. Palin did include Giffords in a black list of people responsible for abortion laws, there is no evidence that this was the reason behind the shooting.
Your kind is to blame, sonny, always pushing the propaganda networks, scumbag. Your time is coming.
As video games had in the Columbine High School shooting, and it should be given EXACTLY as much air-time and attention.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I'm a conservative (NOT a neo-Republican!) and I am outraged that a duly-elected representative would be shot at a political meeting. You expect this kind of stuff in unstable third-world countries, not in the U. S. of A. If you don't like what a political leader is doing, vote the bum out or impeach them (if they are breaking the law). This isn't the Wild West where might is right.
Guns are fine, so long as the control laws we actually have are enforced and people are educated about gun safety.
In Arizona, it means hitting what you aim at. Lots of bumper stickers around here say so.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
CNN reported on a live feed @ 1:40 PM PST that she is expected to get out of surgery (presumably alive).
Her staff should have been armed and ready to respond. Do you anti-gunners out there think LEGISLATION is going to protect you from POLITICAL attacks?
A motivated attacker can fashion weapons from raw steel if he's motivated. (Can you say Sten gun? Probably not, but anyone with a basic lathe and hand tools can make them all day.) If politics in the US turns into a streetfight, there aren't enough cops to issue everyone a bodyguard.
Laws only restrain the lawful. Arm up and mobb deep.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
While the story indicates that a motive has not yet been determined, it also states that she recently won a close and hotly contested race with a Tea Party candidate. Hopefully, it will not be found that the teenage shooter was not responding to the Tea Party rhetoric of if we can't win in the ballot box, we will win in the streets.
It is truly a shame, but something angered the shooter enough that he took it upon himself to "fix" a problem. I wonder if election campaigning were more civil and less mud slinging/hate mongering if this shooting would have occurred.
While many people on slashdot are of many different political views and seem to be able to discuss issues civilly (for the most part), there seem to be pockets of society in the US that are not able to do that. How does anyone expect to solve any of the issues in the US or world, when there isn't even enough respect of the human person to allow for differing opinions?
Whatever the cause of the shooting, it is truly a sad day.
That young man wasted his chance on a nobody... Sarah Palin should be shot in the head so she doesn't get onto TV anymore... heck... even that Ann Coulter dude would have made more sense...
Sarah Palin just took down her USA Map with targets drawn over democratic leaders, one of them was for Gabrielle Giffords.
I was born and raised in Tucson, this type of crime rarely happens. Most people usually hear about crime in Phoenix. Anyways, appears there were multiple suspects in the shooting. 4+ people dead, local sheriff reports that Giffords was gravely wounded, some reports that she's dead, others that she's in surgery. Local newspaper has story up now, http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/archives/389 No matter what your political affiliation, murder is still murder. I've heard one report that Giffords was shot point-blank in the head. I think it's time to really consider leaving the US before this sort to stupid political strife becomes a full blown civil war...
"The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
This is what a country gets when it allows to sell guns freely. Guns should be taken away from people, period!
I was expecting a Hispanic or Muslim moniker. Guess I lost the bet.
That would be this one, complete with the gunsights. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html But true, no evidence yet that she or any of her followers were involved.
It's a shame? Cancelling Stargate Universe was a shame - this is more commonly known as a tragedy, but sadly we seem to hear of so many that we're getting dulled to it.
As of 2 PM PST:
11 patients
===
1 dead (9 year old girl)
5 in critical condition
5 in surgery
Giffords is one of the patients in critical condition; shot once in the head; surgeon optimistic regarding recovery; reported as lucid and following commands.
-- Muskets NOT state of the art anymore -- 18 century ended 200 years ago --
If you want to rise against tyrants request some F16, Apaches and Panzers, good luck!
is called KGUN. wow.
New Economic Perspectives
sorta funny...
From the fox article: "Stupid gunman....it's the SENATE that needs fixing "
And u think u are the main democracy of the globe... hahahahahahahaha
Poor sheep people
U'r not human, u'r animals
What javascript needs to be whitelisted there in order to see the comments? I'm not blanketing the whole page, and enabled foxnews.com already, still no comments.
fixed that for ya.
Reading the articles reporting on this sad event, I learned the Congresswoman Giffords is Jewish. I know everyone is assuming a Tea Party motivated attack, but there is a possibility of it being an anti-semitic attack. There is also the possibility that both of these are correct, as they do not appear to be mutually exclusive.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
It isn't just "crosshairs". People like Palin are continually exhorting their followers to "reload". Her facebook page even has crosshair symbols on a map and the names of politicians who didn't vote the way Palin wanted them to.
http://www.alan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sarahpac_0.jpg
And Gabrielle Giffords name is on that.
So, now that the alleged shooter has been identified, and lists Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto among his favorite books, and has a single video listed as his favorite video -- a video of the American flag begin burned, care to revise your statement?
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
I remember when Reagan was shot, there was speculation that the shooter was politically motivated. It turned out he was mentally ill with delusions.
At the present time, no one really knows the why of this. Thankfully, they caught someone so we may know more in time.
For right now, the main thing is to hope that those shot and still alive pull through and make full recoveries.
As an aside, Gifford's husband is an astronaut on the next shuttle crew and her brother in law is currently on the space station. This has to be weighing very heavily on them.
My condolences to her family, I hope she makes a full recovery. But this does not belong on Slashdot.
See cache here as the Kos revisionists are on the double.
Of course this is very sad news, but is this really the place for this kind of news
Far off topic I would say.
Apparent identity of the shooter is Jared Lee Loughner.
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Jared+Lee+Loughner
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=gabrielle+giffords
Youtube channel is still up and the videos are backed up.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
You left off the part where other people tell groups of potential crazies WHO TO KILL.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434
Scroll to the bottom.
The read up on her rhetoric about reloading.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-10/-don-t-retreat-reload-palin-tells-republicans-in-new-orleans.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
It seems he planned this 3 weeks ago.
Yet USA has almost 6 times the murder rate (the same goes for all the scandinavian countries) Why?
Here is your reason, but you're not going to like it, and I'll probably be modded down, even though the following is 100% factual - anyone here can confirm it by just plugging the census data and crime statistics into Excel:
http://comfortabletruth.blogspot.com/2011/01/fun-chart-of-day.html
If you normalize for demographics, the USA is just as safe as Europe. It really is that straightforward. Don't hate me for pointing it out, I'm not biased, the facts are biased, I'm just the messenger. Like I said, anyone can confirm this with Excel and a few minutes of research. We can argue endlessly about the reasons for this incredibly strong correlation, sure, but we cannot deny the story the numbers tell us.
Quote The suspect fired indiscriminately from about four feet away, Michaels said. A congressional official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity that the gunman was using an automatic weapon. unquote Unless specifically registered by the ATF automatic weapons are illegal already.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The problem with that rule is that we probably have at least one person somewhere in this thread tree who thinks they're sufficiently without sin to start casting stones.
Indeed, Gun Crime is much, much worse in those countries where guns are banned.
[citation needed]
Do you know what a militia is? The second ammendment does not mention self defense. It would allow laws to permit gun ownership for any reason, but only requires the law to permit it in order to maintain a militia.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
You mean Never A Straight Answer? Those guys who've covered up the reality of the universe for the last 60 years? That organization that was started by Ex-Nazi's?
Fuck you.
In principle I agree with you, but the thing is that a lot of people saw this sort of thing coming. There has been a lot of commentary and, at least in my own discussions, worry, about the winking incitement to violence that has been broadcast since Obama was elected.
Wrong, it started when Bush was elected. A lot of the strong anti-government movement started With Bush, pushed by people like you stating the government was a bunch of jackboot thugs.
So this is really reaping what you have sown, even though you wished for a different target at the time.
The shooter you see was a nut-case very much into government hatred, communism and flag burning. Not exactly the type to follow Palin or indeed any of the "America First" people. Just a crazy hater whose hatred was fueled long before Obama ever saw office.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A thousand bucks a piece.
I can make zip guns in bulk for $10 at most.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The shooter you was a nut-case very much into government hatred, communism and flag burning. Not exactly the type to follow Palin or indeed any of the "America First" people. Just a crazy hater whose hatred was fueled long before Obama ever saw office, by the same people that hated Bush so much... Kind of like the IRS plane guy, a lunatic pushed over the rbink of madness by those that hate the government, period.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I love how everyone talks about banning guns, yet nobody has a good plan about how to do so. For instance; I have 4 guns, 1 that I purchased for concealed carry when I was stationed in a terrible part of Virginia while in the Marine Corps, and 3 that were handed down to me from my father. My recent weapon is registered, and if they really wanted to they could come get it, its not worth going to jail over, but they don't know about the others and I wouldn't tell them. So, in the society with banned guns, I would have 3 guns instead of 4. The only change would be that I would be using an older firearm to defend myself and my family.
The shooter was a nut-case very much into government hatred, communism and flag burning. Not exactly the type to follow Palin or indeed any of the "America First" people. Just a crazy hater whose hatred was fueled long before Obama ever saw office.
That's what you get with jumping the gun to blame Palin; a whole lot of internet egg on your face.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I predict, based on the past dozen massacres/assassinations and whatnot high profile shootings, that it will be found that the shooter was/has been force addicted to a "prescribed, for his own good", psychoactive substance like ritalin. THIS is the common denominator with these sorts of shootings for the past 20 years or more. Whatever crazy political motivation is irrelevant at this time, it will be shown that this false "necessity" of over prescribing mind altering hard drugs to children is just not worth it and is too harmful, and will have been what pushed him over the edge. for what it is worth, it is effecting combat vets even worse, come back with ptsd, get prescribed a shitload of bad mojo drugs as the "cure", so they go nuts and then commit crtimes, some bad crimes. It's a big scandal now..
Ya, posting AC, but some of you will remember this little post in the weeks ahead.
Obviously Palin was only trying to elect someone else, not have her killed. It's only out of respect that she has taken these things down, and rightfully so - don't you think it would be in bad taste to leave them up?
Meanwhile we find the shooter was really some leftists anarchist nut - remember always that no-one left or right is advocating violence against the opposite party.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
it was the right wing whoresons' scaremongering and provocation that caused that oafbrain to attack that congresswoman. is that it ?
Read radical news here
He sounds like your basic garden variety crazy of the anti-government persuasion. Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are basically at the lunatic fringe opposites of the political spectrum - it seems this fellow is more interested in violence against the government then what the particular goal of said violence is.
Did you mean the "Left" in the USofA ... or in England?
The guy who made that movie is British.
According to his YouTube video" explaining his views.
So much for all the accusations by the Dems against Reps, Fox News and the Tea Party.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
apparently one of his crank causes is gold and silver backed currency: a classic right wing wackjob
http://www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1
thank you right wing america, for all the hate mongering and fearmongering
you reap what you sow
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
which moron, and i reiterate, moron, modded down the above, FACT containing post, so that it had to be modded up to remain at +1 normal ?
im openly calling you a moron. come out and justify your morondom. that is, if you can. while youre at it, explain the domestic and friendly uses of a close-counters fucking smg apart from killing people.
Read radical news here
The US is not a democracy. The US is not even a representative republic any more. Soap, ballot, and jury are only effective if you have millions or billions of dollars to spend while bullets are cheap. Keep shooting! Revolution for Freedom!
How true that is, Nostrodamus.
Check out the guy's YouTube channel. All the major news sources are listing it. He's a total whack job.
Um, that movie that you're linking to is written and directed by a BRITISH guy.
England != The USofA
I agree...
My point was that the poster to whom I replied earlier had already decided that this was "political terrorism egged on by a political party that doesn't seem to have a human heart, in particular, Sarah Palin", which is bullshit.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
And the previous Slashdot's posting was about Digital Afterlife:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/01/08/1825239/Are-You-Ready-For-the-Digital-Afterlife
Talk about bad timing...
This is not just false equivalence, but false exactness.
You can lie to yourself, but there is both a qualitative and quantitative difference. Video games have fantasy violence in various settings, some more realistic than others. Palin "targeted" people by name, and one of those people have been shot.
I played the same games the Columbine perps played and I don't recall any High School maps where you shoot defenceless unarmed students and teachers.
Another big difference in the context; the Columbine shootings were not prefaced by non-stop radio and television rhetoric calling for use of the second amendment to resolve the problem of defenceless students and teachers at High Schools.
Stopping publication of rhetoric from the simple minded that may drive other simple minds to do stupid shit is not a solution either as this would be censorship but it does good to point out the possible connection between the words of dumb shits leading to actions by other dumb shits.
The reported gunman in custody is one Jared Loughner.
Here is the youtube channel of a "Jared Lee Loughner" , self identified as a student at Pima Community College.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u
Smells like a schizo-fruitbat to me.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
So how is it "bad taste" to have a graphic of crosshairs and the name of a person AFTER that person is shot ... but not BEFORE that person is shot?
It's not like this is the first time that graphic has been brought up. It was in the news when she posted it. And people were worried that it would lead to violence against the people named on it.
But it was okay then and not after one of the people named on it is shot? That's some pretty flexible "logic" you have there.
This guy has a few screws loose:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
"Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they’ve gotta realize there are consequences to that action.”
--Gabrielle Gifford March 25, 2010, MSNBC Interview.
http://kateoplis.tumblr.com/post/2655554409/msnbc-talks-to-rep-gabrielle-gifford-about-the
I second the parent post!
It is too early to start blaming or trying to figure out why this happened and at our end of the information chain we should be the ones who withhold judgment until more information is known and presented. Speculation and guessing will only form the wrong ideas in our minds as to why this happened and our own thinking will be clouded with judgment and bias instead of facts. We will become swayed by our own personal prejudices and when the facts finally come out we'll be skeptical of them if they don't form up to our own derived conclusions.
"Why did he do this?"
The assailant who's in custody should be asked the most important question of all so that we can figure out his method of thinking and have a clearer understanding of the purpose behind his actions.
Like the posters above have mentioned, some attacks and assassinations are clearly politically motivated while others are just done by mentally ill people, or some are even perpetrated due to secret personal vendettas or retributions.
Representative was shot! So were some other people! We have no idea who else was shot, who did it, why, or what the condition of the representative is! We're at the scene with news outlets contradicting each other trying to be first to say anything-at-all to get their ratings up. Political trolls are drawing conclusions and throwing around blame with absolutely nothing to go on. *YAWN* Can't wait a day or 2 until we actually know anything, can we?
Sure she was on the Tea-Party's hit list, and the Federal Judge slaughtered today had numerous prior death threats, but it's a bit early to call this an assassination.
6 people have died, at least an additional 6 injured.
To me, that doesn't seem to be very targeted.
Is is possible for a young white male to be a terrorist? I forget the rules.
Performance must be inherent in every aspect of the system. It is not an afterthought, but always thought. - me
They were health care supporters, I see. In my country media put a stress on the abortion support...
Well it started when the US was founded, I would imagine. I was pretty uncomfortable at the hatred shown towards Clinton in the 90s. I noticed & didn't like the comparisons of Bush to Hitler and Bush republicans to nazis.
The root problem seems to be the fact that a lot of people on both sides talk past each other, don't trust each other, don't follow the wikipedia 'presume good intentions' rule any more. That's a collective problem that will eventually need to be solved. That doesn't change the fact that, since Obama was elected, the bulk of the crazy paranoid tripe has come from the tea party fringe, and a lot of that has (a) been broadcast on network tv or said by mainstream politicians (Palin), and (b) this time the tone (to me at least) seems more threatening, what with the crosshairs and urges for america to 'rearm'.
The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
You're absolutely right, it was bullshit. But it's hard to be rational when this is what you hear every day, day in and day out from those around you.
There's still a chance I could be right, initially, that this guy was a tea party wingnut, but the odds of it are slim.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
While I think they "buy" that crap because they WANT their party to be like that. And it's okay if my party is like that if the OTHER party is also like that.
grab your own nuts
House Speaker John Boehner condemned the attack. "An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve," he said in a statement. "Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society."
I don't support this shooting, but let's be real here. The US government is so full of shit. Acts and threats of violence are an every day tool of the US government.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Not really -- his youtube videos make it pretty clear who he was.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
So posting crosshairs and names is okay ... until someone actually puts the person with that name in crosshairs ... and pulls the trigger?
Again, that's some very flexible logic you have there. Particularly since this has been brought up on the news when she first posted it.
Or Beck, or Faux News? I wonder if Mark Kelly, Rep. Giffords' husband, has a cause of action against Palin, who put Giffords district in a scope sight picture. Intentional infliction of emotional distress, interference with consortium, etc?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The problem with that rule is that we probably have at least one person somewhere in this thread tree who thinks they're sufficiently without sin to start casting stones.
"A great rabbit stands teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife's adultery, and a mob carries her to the marketplace to stone her to death. (There is a familiar version of this story, but a friend of mine, a speaker for the dead, has told me of two other rabbis that faced the same situation. Those are the ones I'm going to tell you.)
"The rabbi walks forward and stands beside the woman. Out of respect for him the mob forbears, and waits with the stones heavy in their hands. 'Is there anyone here,' he says to them, 'who has not desired another man's wife, another woman's husband?'
"They murmur and say, 'We all know the desire. But, Rabbi, none of us has acted on it.'
"The rabbit says, 'Then kneel down and give thanks that God made you strong.' He takes the woman by the hand and leads her out of the market. Just before he lets her go, he whispers to her, 'Tell the lord magistrate who saved his mistress. Then he'll know I am his loyal servant.'
"So the woman lives, because the community is too corrupt to protect itself from disorder.
"Another rabbi, another city. He goes to her and stops the mob, as in the other story, and says, 'Which of you is without sin! Let him cast the first stone.'
"The people are abashed, and they forget their unity of purpose in the memory of their own individual sins. Someday, they think, I may be like this woman, and I'll hope for forgiveness and another chance. I should treat her the way I wish to be treated.
"As they open their hands and let the stones fall to the ground, the rabbi picks up one of the fallen stones, lifts it high over the woman's head, and throws it straight down with all his might. It crushes her skull and dashes her brains onto the cobblestones.
"'Nor am I without sin,' he says to the people, 'But if we allow only perfect people to enforce the law, the law will soon be dead, and our city with it.'
"So the woman died because her community was too rigid to endure her deliverance.
"The famous version of this story is noteworthy because it is so startlingly rare in our experience. Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis, and when they veer too far they die. Only one rabbi dared to expect of us such a perfect balance that we could preserve the law and still forgive the deviation. So, of course, we killed him."
-Orson Scott Card, Speaker for the dead, p. 277-278
I haven't heard the gunman identifed yet, and the Pima County sheriff is not yet speculating on motive. to try and ascribe this to any political motive is premature and without evidence.
Children, you are. Or just fanning the fire. Pointless either way. Here in Arizona this seems to be the only thing to talk about today. Even the usual talk show hosts have come on on their weekend to run on about all this. Great. It's tragedy enough without piling on this crap.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Well if I read the page you linked I see that it also mentions Mein Kampf as a favorite read of the guy. That's not exactly leftist literature.
Everyone who has been screaming about how the ballot and soap boxes have let the United States down, here is the results of your rhetoric. Someone has resorted to the ammo box. Aren't you proud?
It's the plot of Machete all over again.
on his Facebook page. Sick dude...typical Tea-Bagger lunatic.
If only you and your people had some kind of an organized, trained and heavily equipped and armed group whose job and duty would be to defend you from foreign and domestic enemies.
Or some trained and armed group that would investigate and possibly prevent any such attack.
Or even organized and trained professionals who would patrol and control your countries borders.
Fuck son...
What kind of a poor excuse for a country do you live in, where you must be your own army, police and border guard?
What happens when you go to sleep? You get robbed and killed each night?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Make hunting guns carry a single bullet that can only be loaded by hand, no catridge so it takes a while to reload. One gun person. It weight 30kg and is painted bright orange and beeps whenever in range of a GSM mast and reports its location constantly. The guns are kept at a secure station near their intended usage area, the owner remains responsible at all times for the usage of the gun taking the same punishment as the user of the gun.
Something tells me that this will see a lot less "full metal jacket heave machine guns, for rabbit hunting". I know real hunters, they don't need or want hand guns or automatic rifles. Single shotgun carried at all times in the open position is more then enough. What kind of rabbit does the US have that you hunt with an automatic pistol?
Likewise, who deserves to die more than someone engaging in the act of killing others (that would be the gunmen in this scenario)?
You know...
For contributions to society like all that being holier than though you're full of, that makes you so competent a judge on matters of who "deserves to die".
Shit like that makes you an automatic nominee in my book.
Fox and the right wing don't live in the real world they create their own relative reality as Karl Rove openly intended to do as a founding principle of his campaigning technique; I heard it myself over a decade ago. They want to not feel bad or at all responsible or guilty and one of many rationalizations and emotional escapes is to belittle and make less of the situation - and.... their popular technique of blaming the victim, used for many decades by their party as if it was part of the playbook (although I think its a sign of a deeper character trait common to them, as they have targeted certain demographics strongly and therefore have large numbers of certain types of people in their party-- resulting in the character of the organization to shift to reflect their changing makeup. Quite likely to the point where we can create profiles or brain scans to ID what is wrong with them-- its hard to filter out groups you can study like this and I think to some degree they've done all the hard work for researchers.)
Idiots they used to sucker with a few lines and slogans have taken it too far. It has gone out of their control, where some of those suckers are even getting elected believing the empty rhetoric that was never intended beyond getting some votes. The fanatics are so upset the instigators are getting boxed in by their own lies and deception - in a mob gone wild off of propaganda. It makes compromise more difficult and when global warming is impossible to ignore any longer they'll have their hands tied because they didn't think far enough ahead.... its already happened (different issues) to many republicans already. Bad times only make people more scared and unable to ignore problems - as times continue to get worse more scared angry people will surface. Emotional people don't think. Black and White takes less thinking-- the other party must be pure 100% evil, your politician must be 100% corrupt if they don't vote the way you want (you must be 100% correct and informed....) etc.
The only thing I find funny is just how accurately the assessment was a few years back: people are scared -- they cling to god, guns, and country(nationalism.) Bet this gunman had all 3.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Criticizing the government, protesting and even hating is not a problem. Violence and incitement to violence is the problem. I do not know a poster similar to the crosshair one against Bush. Surely not endorsed by a democrat governor (or VP candidate!). Nothing like this either: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21
Really, the gun nuts have this mythical idea that they will have a shootout at the coral when the bandits attack. No, you won't. You either will be asleep and caught completely of guard, shoot your kid comin home thinking he is a burglar or be killed in your sleep by a criminal not taking any changes when he comes to rob you for the gun in the night stand you won't even have a change of finding in the dark.
You think you are John Wayne, yes you are, the real one who dodged the draft because he was to chicken to fight despite playing a though guy all the time. When the going gets though, the republicans hide under the covers.
Really, US crime rates are higher then other western nations but despite all the gun owner ship, the number of incidents where a victim succesfully defends him/herself are negliciable compared to the crimes that turned out far worse because the criminal decided to shoot first.
If you outlaw guns, outlaws won't need guns and not risk the death sentence for a simple burglary gone wrong.
That's your opinion. The problem is ... Palin doesn't seem to share it.
No. That's the problem. It is only "clear" to her existing fans.
Once her rhetoric was actualized, she immediately pulled the graphic because she was afraid that she'd lose popularity if people saw that graphic AFTER they heard the news of the shooting.
It was in bad taste to post it in the first place.
The bad taste was compounded every time they updated the site and did not take that graphic down.
Now she's backing away from it by pulling it when the "undecideds" might see it on the news.
If it was "innocuous" then it wouldn't be a problem after the shooting. And she wouldn't have pulled it. But she did. Because it wasn't "innocuous".
You're probably responding to something else because I never posted that. Try to stick to what I've posted, kthx.
Ever read the The Communist Manifesto? Mein Kemf? The "new pearl harbor" PNAC document of the late 90s?
They can be taken many many ways in many directions. Some people like things that help them hate.
It was reported that he shot her 1st and was about 1 ft away from her head.
Bad taste doesn't figure into this. If it's popular with her core supporters ... she'll do it.
Right up to the time that it becomes more of a liability with the "mainstream".
Which is the situation here. When she put it up, her supporters were happy with it. But now, people who are not her "base" might develop a negative opinion of her if they saw it on the news.
At which point, her speaking fees dry up because fewer people want to pay someone who hosts a graphic like that to speak at their functions.
Remember that being screamed out by some guy when McCain was talking about Obama's policies?
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D39843233193D0F3&playnext=1&v=jw3o3y77MaA
Did anyone else hear about this and then hear Kosh (Naranek) in his head saying "It has begun?"
I think I'll drink myself to sleep tonight. :P
for a very long time, and wants more. They continue to call for it, on the air, every day, at various events. They have some of the highest-paid political voices in the nation on their side, actively encouraging people to pick up arms and "defend" America from "socialists," which happen to be anyone that is not a far-right ideologue.
Whether or not this particular incident was driven by right-wing ideology, the Republican party and the Tea Party wanted this and wanted it bad, and they continue to want more. Or, the voices that they promote and that are supported by their rank-and-file are lying through their teeth on the air every day.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
are reasonable, because it has been water-cooler discussion for quite some time that Beck/Palin/Hannity/House Repubs et. al. continually call for political violence and subversive unrest rather than civil political activity.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
If you and all the other head in the sand Democrats don't think our side kills people have never dealt with union members up close and personal.
The media just doesn't report it the same.
Or for that matter looked at cheating in elections, which we Dems are experts at, to my dismay. i.e. IL, NY, etc.
And I am NOT a Republican, I just don't have my head in the sand.
I hate sigs, and refuse to have one.
Bush woke up a lot of people into what has been going on. The hate is justified, the irrational directing of it is the problem. People should have been extremely upset before Bush even stole the election with the stuff Clinton did. More people are upset now, the ones who were upset long ago have been stewing for a long time. When I think of the WTO protests... and how it is twice (10x?) as bad as that today.... to the point where the libertarian/republican types are starting to get upset.... We haven't had too many people who were awake 15-40 years ago going violent, just these young ones unable to handle the spoonful they just got.
The parent's FTA says he liked Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha -- I don't see how people are bringing up Communism with him and not Fascism when that book is there as well---- and it would take a really messed up person to attack a democrat 1st if they are Marxist fanatics when there are extreme Corporatists all over government.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
The shooter hardly seems like a clear leftist. In the article you point to they also favorited Mein Kampf, are against federal laws, and insists on the gold and silver standard. That's a good mix of hard right and hard left. I'd say they're just pure anarchist with a mix of pure crazy.
Cow Cube
Your link to violent crime statistics don't indicate whether those figures are for raw totals or for per capita totals. A quick run down of the list shows that it mostly tracks with population size, so I would assume that the figures are not adjusted for per capita.
Thus, your conclusions about the top five states on that list are bunk. Here's a hint, the top 4 states on your list are also the most populous states. Try a new argument when you have per capita figures.
Ah - my openly despising an administration that allowed the largest terrorist attack in history months after suppressing FBI investigations into the Bin Laden family, which proceeded to use lies to justify invading a country that had no links to the attack, who speak to this day with pride about authorising warcrimes including waterboarding is of course exactly equivalent to the eliminationist rhetoric coming from the right wing establishment.
Against people that spoke with pride about authorising . . . heathcare for poor people and children.
I mean, other than the fact that the left never called for eliminating right wing politicians (Excepting some marginal comment down in a blog somewhere), that many people would not consider better healthcare morally inferior to, say, torturing people to death or going to war without cause, and . . . oh yeah . . . by odd coincidence despite your deep belief that we were all planning on it no left wing nut ever tried to take out the American Enterprise Institute nor has there been so much as a threat against a right wing politician . . . ever . . . these are completely identical.
Other than being completely different of course.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Parent's insight is probably extremely relevant to the topic.
Leftists tend not to list "Mein Kampf" among their favorite books. Or anything written by Ayn Rand. Particularly not THAT book.
Unstable "gonna fix the guberment myself" gun-nuts on the other hand...
Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.
If anything, the list screams "I just want to be a kid!" and "I need a strong male role model" while questioning morality of the world order.
Also, videos are apparently a manifesto of a an anti-grammar-Nazi.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
A Democrat congresswoman is shot, and a federal judge and 8 others are killed. This would be shocking, except that it's not. The congresswoman "beat back a tough challenge from a Tea Party-endorsed opponent."
So we have organization that promotes having its supporters brandish weapons at its rallies, has its most prominatent supporters openly talk about advocate armed rebellion, and armed secession, and other defunct 19th century extremist ideas, demonizing a duly elected political opponent, and now we have her shot, and 9 others killed.
I don't have a whole lot of respect for politicians or lawyers. If they actually mean what they say about SERVING THE PEOPLE then I don't think it is all that bad if a random segment of them die at a high enough frequency to deter many self-serving "ambulance chasers" from running for office.
Sure that sounds bad, but governments kill thousands of people each year (the USA does more like hundreds of thousands per year) so for a few politicians to die as collateral damage I think is worth the price of gaining the power an elected office affords them. Unfortunately, the most corrupt ones seem to do just fine.... (I'm not implying conspiracies, just observing.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
but that means all guns if civilians don't have guns why would police or military need them? Unless to kill unarmed people.
It seems that he did go on a rant couple of months ago.
Except, it seems to have been a kind of a rant that would/should have attracted attention of a trained psychologist.
Too bad he just yelled at the emptiness of the internet, instead of at say... other humans.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
So the story about the shooting only happened in my imagination?
I'm sure that Giffords would prefer it that way. But it isn't so. She was shot, in the head.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.judge.obit/index.html?hpt=T1
Apprently he ruled an immigratin law suit could continue. This is looking more like a political act to me than just a wacko. Watch the people who created a climate of fear and hate; such as Karl Rove, Palin, Beck, and Limbaugh; distance themselves from this ASAP. They will express "plausible deniability".
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Palin's poster is vile and irresponsible regardless of whether it leads to violence. The violence is explicit in the poster itself. It is a hitlist.
Sure, somebody probably thought it was funny and cute to compare a hitlist to a political campaign list. Just because somebody thinks it's cute doesn't make it OK to draw a hitlist.
I hope it marks the low point of Republican propaganda and anti-intellectualism, but I'm probably wrong.
The people suddenly and only now demanding that we "keep politics out of this", are the very same people who always gleefully used other tragedies and incidents as a cudgel against the Dems, whenever they could.
The lunatic right fear that this may be a case of their own chickens coming home to roost.
Maybe you should re-read the post that you responded to. NeutronCowboy made a comparison between the comments on Huffpost and Fox News. He states, and my observations agree, that the posts on Fox were angry, bigoted, and generally disgusting, while the comments of Huffpost were useful. Then he extends that comparison to imply that the extreme wing of the Republicans espouse violence. NC does not at all encourage violence in his post. In fact he uses the suggestion of political violence a tool to smear the tea party types. Take a deep breath and relax, KingSkippus.
-- QED
I guess I wouldn't be considered "reasonable" either by someone who didn't think that Palin's poster was okay.
Meanwhile, if there really wasn't anything wrong with that poster, then why take it down after the shooting?
You are trading in the possibility of your own countrymen turning against for the certainty (clearly YOU are certain about that) of "them furners" killing you in your sleep?
How do you know that they don't have flamethrowers too?
Do you too have a youtube channel where you rant against the guberment trying to confuse you with "grammer" and about your plans to create your own currency?
Only with blackjack. And hookers.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
The news was that a representative who wanted to be more available and hands-on for her constituents — a different kind of politician who takes time to make herself available in a less-scripted manner than "Town Halls" — gets gunned down for her trouble. And not only her, but her staff and others.
I don't think it's a 'guns' issue — biologicals or chemicals (ricin, sarin) could have done the same or worse. Or a simple suicide bomber could have made as much of a splash (though not as many frags, probably).
I think it's a political issue, and a damned shame that a probable real 'do-gooder' and maybe even 'honest politician' (hold the oxymoron comments!) gets herself and her staff shot up for trying to change the political landscape.
The representative was right: emails are impersonal; and imo Town Halls are scripted b.s.; but constituents ought to be able to communicate directly with their reps, and there ought to be more transparency in govt. Hell, maybe she ought to have used Skype; there SHOULD be a tech solution for honest govt reps to speak to voters on a personal level w/out citizens losing even more civil rights.
The correct term is "reticle" of the type called "crosshair" and they are not unique to guns.
The sights are the little metal parts on the gun above the barrel that you use to aim.
The reticle in a rifle scope (which the image appears to depict) are usually indicative of the aiming point of the weapon, yes. Then again, many laser range finders, golf scopes, binoculars, and other optical devices also have them for indicating aim or other purposes.
I do agree that using images reminiscent of the view through a rifle scope is a bit tasteless. Moreso now.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Plenty of people here claiming that the Republicans are at fault for inciting violence by using violent imagery.
I take it the next time there's a call to ban violent video games for inciting violence by using violent imagery (with much more pronounced impact thanks to participation in said imagery) you'll all stand up and cheer, then vote to arrest the entire Valve development team and others, yes?
You mean, on the one hand, the extreme that's packing heat so they can blow away people in Safeway parking lots, and on the other hand, the extreme that doesn't?
Or perhaps the extreme that sends swat teams to raid small farm coops to seize shipments of raw milk cheese? The extreme that sends swat teams into family homes on a faulty warrant for suspected marijuana possession and shoots homeowners in the middle of the night? The extreme that provides a personal security detail to the mistress of a certain city's mayor but won't let a corner newsstand owner in a bad crime district get a firearm permit? The extreme that pays out trillions of dollars to large bankers so they can pay their bonus checks after defrauding the country? The extreme that wages wars across the globe to "spread democracy" by the sword?
There is a lot of crazy going around. It does not matter whether it is tyranny of the individual of tyranny of the majority, both are tyranny. Government is intended to strike a balance, protecting us from both. Neither party is doing so very much.
But as far as I can tell so far, the guy who did this is just a nut and a rotten one--- an equal-opportunity hater.
Criticizing the government, protesting and even hating is not a problem. Violence and incitement to violence is the problem. I do not know a poster similar to the crosshair one against Bush. Surely not endorsed by a democrat governor (or VP candidate!). Nothing like this either: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21
Yes, when left protested against Bush it was all very peaceful and civilized.
CNN already has a story up with quotes from the suspect's various online accounts
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shootings.suspect.social/index.html
Interesting, the suspect has a youtube account and has 5 videos posted. They are here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u/0/7uRjwPWaxiY
The videos are fairly strange, exhibiting a repeated use of arguments that beg the question (I use "beg the question" in the sense that I referring to the logical fallacy). Clearly they are not the product of a healthy mind. He seems to be stuck in some sort of rut. Common themes include a new currency, mind control, and confusion about the way we number our years.
-- QED
Clutching at straws to the last...
If you really care about your intellectual honest, I'd recommend some introspective study.
Okay, I'm not going to advocate terrorism, or violence -- but on some level, I think the government will be more apt to work "for the people" if they're afraid of getting shot. Hell, that's kind of the values America was founded on. Revolution. I dunno, I think it's best summed up like this:
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Clarie Wolfe
Maybe the hour is just later than many suppose for people on the extreme short end of the stick.
"That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
Something really rotten has evolved in the last 16 years of American politics. It started with the character assassination of Bill Clinton, followed by the character assassination of George W. Bush, and over that period of time the shouting across the divide between left and right has exploded, spilling out into hateful slogans on the backs of cars and in store windows. The problem appears to be that a geographic majority feels disenfranchised by a numeric majority, and they appear not to mind destroying a political process that represents to them the destroyer of their way of life. I believe it can be likened to a man who becomes irrational when his wife leaves him: it degrades into an ugly scene where nobody wins.
Anger is a poison that runs its course and can't really be treated. Every crackpot who puts his opinion on the back of his car incites another crackpot to do the same, and by this time it's no longer free speech, but rather the people being held hostage by free speech. Good luck with your country guys. I hope it works out for you.
That comes as a great surprise to me, as I used a semi-automatic weapon just this morning to kill some ducks. Oddly, that's the purpose the manufacturer (Remington) intended this model (SP-10) to be used for.
Let's not make semi-automatic weapons to be some kind of extra super-scary weapons that only murderers use - they're routinely used for hunting, for example. And it's not like banning them would really solve anything - this guy could have fired just as quickly and hit just as many people with a pair of revolvers.
Well, it's a good thing he didn't try to use a toner cartridge, at those can apparently blow up a whole airliner! Thankfully, those in charge of "protecting" us have banned them from checked luggage and cargo flights.
On a more serious note, this is a horrible blow against the accessibility of public officials, and a senseless attack against some very good people. But I fear it'll only get worse if the US is unable to reboot itsself.
Not to mention the fact that having a whole bunch of people shooting at each other in a crowded grocery store is not necessarily an improvement over one guy shooting in a crowded grocery store. Did the GP ever stop to think that the good guys' bullets keep traveling? And said supporters would probably never mistake a guy reaching for his cellphone for a gunman, right?
Look, I'm a gun owner and I'm not in favor of taking away everyone's guns. But the idea that what we ought to do to be safer is have a whole bunch of random schmoes running around carrying pistols everywhere quite frankly terrifies me.
...if you ban crime, only criminals will use it.
Ever hear of "fact checking?!"
"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."
Very spot-on (and unexpected) insight from a "Law Man".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
A 9 year old child lost to this.
So senseless.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
My condolences go to the families of the dead, and my best wishes to the wounded and traumatized.
Why gives the FUCK! Oh, I know, the fuckers who won't give fuck when homeless die or pedestrian or driver in accident. I guess it slow or no news at all new if it makes to SlashDot.
When Tom Flanagan suggested on free-to-air TV that Assange be killed (which he retracted the following day and said that the comment was not intended to be taken seriously), people said that he should be prosecuted for inciting harm to others.
Perhaps Sarah Palin's gun-sight graphics on her web site, as described in the article extract quoted below, qualifies her for similar investigation?
-- recherche
(Quoting from an ABC (Australia) news article:)
It has been revealed that Ms Giffords, who had previously been the target of threats and vandalism over her positions on healthcare and immigration, had been worried about a map on Sarah Palin's website.
Ms Giffords is one of 20 Democrats whose districts were lit up with gun sight icons on Ms Palin's campaign website last year because they had voted for US president Barack Obama's landmark health care bill.
The congresswoman worried at the time that the imagery might incite violence.
"The way that she (Palin) had it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district," Ms Giffords said.
"When people do that they've got to realise there's consequences to that action."
A few hours after the November 2 health bill vote, vandals broke windows at Ms Giffords' office.
After the shooting, Ms Palin, a former Alaska governor and 2008 vice presidential candidate, removed the graphic from her website and offered her condolences on a posting on Facebook.
People, this guy was nuts. Watch his youtube videos. Any attempt to credit the tea party, ACORN, Beck, or Perez Hilton with this is just partisan crap. To a select few further up the comments, don't pretend the right or left has a monopoly on violence.
Will the shooter get jack rubyed?
Now, now, settle down. Guns don't kill people. Republican wingnuts do.
The shooter hardly seems like a clear leftist. In the article you point to they also favorited Mein Kampf, are against federal laws, and insists on the gold and silver standard. That's a good mix of hard right and hard left. I'd say they're just pure anarchist with a mix of pure crazy.
A gun in a safe is useless. Mine are loaded and kept in convenient locations where I can get them quickly.
Which means they are instantly accessible to anyone in your house. The intruder will have no more trouble finding them.
If I ever need a gun, and I sincerely hope I never do, I don't expect to have time to take it out of a safe and load it. I expect that seconds will count.
The "intruder" has the initiative.
He can find you lying in bed, more than half asleep, and blinded by the light.
Being quick on the trigger means you are only seconds away from making an unforgivable mistake. You stand a very good chance of shooting your wife, you kid, or the cat.
Both of them. They are both real. Neither are imaginary (as you had claimed).
what are you talking about?
Run away, run away....how about fixing our country instead of running away? Too much trouble for 'ya?
(1) By 2010, statistics solidly show that at least in the U.S., there is NO positive correlation between gun ownership and crime. This has been apparent for decades, but over those decades the conclusion has been further solidified and is now incontrovertible. Gun ownership per captita in the United States has been going steadily up, while during those same decades violent crime has been going steadily down. And not just a little, but significantly and pretty consistently. There are many individual instances of cities that show the same thing, but for most reasonable people it should be enough to show that it has been an undeniable trend throughout the United States. If you don't believe me, the Department of Justice publishes figures on its website. And there are other sources that show the same thing.
(2) If this person was crazy enough that some politician's talk caused him to start shooting people, then he was almost crazy enough to do it anyway. Who knows what else might have set him off?
(3) People need to stop "knee-jerk" blaming "the tea party" for this. For one thing, the people who started the tea party movement are not the same people who later took it over, nor are their politics the same. For another thing, "war" and "battle" metaphors have been used in all kinds of games and politics -- by ALL "sides" -- for centuries. The pot should stop calling the kettle black.
(4) This talk of one "side" being more "violent" than the other is garbage. It is true that "the right" has historically been more tolerant of war (and guns) than "the left". However, the left has had its own ways of doing damage to others, even if it hasn't always been overt violence. Take, just for example, the Obama Admistration's increase of illegal surveillance on civilians. This is a form of "violence", not just to individuals but to our Constitutional rights.
(5) Everybody take a deep breath, step back, and stop pointing fingers. Remember that this was pretty obviously a crazy person. The normal rules don't apply.
The bitch obviously deserved it. WTF is this doing on /. anyhow?
Gun control is clearly to blame -- If she had been packing heat, she could have defended herself! But seriously folks... If any good comes of this, it will be in the form of a people's movement that calls for greater responsibility in political speech, to disagree rather than demonize each other. Here's hoping Jon Stewart picks this up and runs with it.
But I've never said that.
I won't even say "nice try at a strawman" because it wasn't. It's just you repeatedly posting and not even bothering to relate your posts to what you are replying to.
The point is that Palin's poster was in bad taste PRIOR to the shooting and only her followers defended it. As you are doing now.
*ouch*
Interesting reactions. I've been reading quite a few times on this very forum that politicians in general, politicians of a specific kind or politicial outlook, etc. should be shot. Now one has, and everyone is sorry for her? Come on people, where is our consistency?
I must admit I know nothing about this particular woman, so I won't judge. But I do know that I've been saying things like that a few times, and if one of the people I meant by it were indeed to be shot, I'd stand by my words that they had it coming. So if this is politically motivated (from what I've read we don't know, yet) then at least give the guy credit for actually following through instead of sitting on his couch complaining about the general evil of the world.
And where are the 2nd amendment defenders? Wasn't the right to bear arms specifically added so US citizens could rid themselves of a tyrannical government?
I'll remind you guys of this story next time you talk loudly.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
From MSNBC
A young woman in Arizona, Catie Parker, claimed on her Twitter feed that she went to high school and college with the gunman, and was in a band with him. She described his politics in the past as "left wing, quite liberal, & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy." She also described him as having a lot of friends "until he got alcohol poisoning in '06" and dropped out of school. "Mainly loner very philosophical."
Parker described the gunman meeting Rep. Gabrielle Giffords previously: "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was 'stupid & unintelligent.'"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40980334/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
This is a common misconception on Slashdot. "Insightful" != "Agrees with me"
That's what I said elsewhere -- he's an anarchist, not right-wing Palinbot.
The video isn't talking about gold & silver standards for money -- watch it all the way through if you can tolerate the ravings.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
before society has a right to take them off the streets as quickly as their rhetoric indicates they may be a potential problem? The shooting at the Washington holocaust museum, the incident in New York, the Tiller murder. This is becoming more of a pattern than "isolated incidents".
There needs to be a special form of banishment for politicians and talking heads who advocate and encourage the use of violence and routinely employ violent imagery to make their point, that is unless we all want to see this kind of thing escalate to a "bleeding Kansas" type situation.
There need to be laws that require people to pass some form of psychological test before they are allowed to buy a gun. Otherwise, we are just advocating crazies should be allowed to kill at will. It is also time to reverse the trend started by Ronald Reagan, who in his first official act as governor of California, closed many of the states mental hospitals and threw the patients out on to the streets. We need more mental health clinics not less, particularly as social and economic pressures are pushing many past the breaking point.
The first two victims of any conflict are the innocent and the truth. Just watch what happens to the laws, rights, and justice after this fiasco. My question is: Whose behind this?
Was it a conspiracy or a lone gunman ala L. H. Oswald?
What is gained and lost by this action?
What laws will be steamrolled through Congress?
Where is the new war front?
What will be the cost and who will pay?
I see absolutely no good coming from this.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Not only do we have more guns, but we also have more politicians encouraging people to use them against others when they don't get their way.
We also have a media culture that makes killing people with guns a form of entertainment to be profited from. Those who watch these kinds of programs and buy these kinds of games really need to reflect on the consequences.
If it wasn't in bad taste BEFORE the shooting then it wouldn't be in bad taste AFTER the shooting and it would still be posted on Palin's web site.
And since I haven't said that Palin was guilty of the shooting ... you're just going to keep making baseless statements until I get tired of replying to you, aren't you?
That's great. Nothing like having you demonstrate how vacuous your position is on your own.
I'm not really sure why this is 'News For Nerds'? It is just a news item that I can see on any news site - there is no technical, or nerdy angle - thats not what I come to slashdot for.
Ok, and? Were you trying to make a point or something? Because if you are, no way in hell should we suppress the freedom of speech just because some mentally ill wackjob decides to go to war with civilians.
Life is not for the lazy.
The woman came out to talk, to listen, probably to change her opinion. Put the table, a chair and a clear sign that it will be a discussion. He could argue with her openly, present his arguments and grievances.
Instead he hit her in the head. What a senseless stupid act of violence.
I hope that the people in the USA are smart enough not to let their great land, the land of the free, to plunge into a chaos because of these isolated provocations.
Suddenly the words "don't retreat, reload", "Kill him" etc. have such a heavy weight to them. What a senseless act, one cannot help but think that such vitrol and caustic rhetoric had some part to do with this heinous act. But who will bring the shock jocks, demagogues to justice? Who will take them to task and not let them hide behind "free speech" specious arguments?
"Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they’ve gotta realize there are consequences to that action.”
--Gabrielle Gifford March 25, 2010, MSNBC Interview.
http://kateoplis.tumblr.com/post/2655554409/msnbc-talks-to-rep-gabrielle-gifford-about-the
w t f ...
I can see it now... "Oh.. but it was all 'jokes' ya know... for sure... nobody meant to shoot her. Its like crosshairs, like we joke about shootin a bear in Alaska!" -- Sarah Palin, predicted quote for future response to this event.
In theory guns are a great equalizer, but in practice they only help the party who is prepared to carry a weapon for the purpose of employing deadly force. This is more far more likely to be the attacker then the victim.
Actually, that's an over-generalization. Many criminals are not very good at using force, they are simply used to an asymmetrical situation--- bullies--- and do not expect a determined victim. Some criminals are actually trained and skilled (and therefore extremely dangerous) but, on the average, a victim with any skill and training is likely to be more skilled than the attacker if they can keep their heads. And quite a few people are very determined not to be victims; they should be given the choice of how to do it.
Then there is the fact that carrying a gun if you are NOT prepared to employ deadly force puts you in more danger then you would be without one (as the attacker will use it against you).
That I agree with wholeheartedly. You should not carry a gun unless you are willing to learn how to use it, when [not] to use it, and are determined to do so. You should thoroughly consider the moral implications of when to shoot before you pick one up. You also need situational awareness to ensure that it is not taken from you. I find that when I am armed, I am much more aware of what goes on around me because I am subconsciously keeping track of who is close to me and ensuring that my weapon is secure. That is probably something I should be doing when I am not armed as well, but psychology can be tricky that way.
Simply having a gun does not level the playing field. Pepper spray is far more suitable for self-defense against a more powerful attacker.
Not really. I have pepper spray and there are places and times I carry it instead of a gun. There are situations where I would use it in preference to a gun, but it is no substitute. For one thing, it will not stop a determined attacker who is carrying a gun faster than they can hurt you, especially at some range. Of the various options for self-defense, including no resistance, using a gun is the least likely to end with both you and the bad guy injured.
A gun also has a deterrent effect which pepper spray does not. If I pull a gun on a bad guy, 9 times out of 10, he will surrender or run. If I pull pepper spray, I will have to use it more likely than not. On the farm, if I confront an intruder or stranger, the fact that I am (visibly) armed also keeps things very polite. I do not have to threaten or brandish the gun, they just know it is there. If you keep a cool head, it keeps things cool; if you have a hot head, a gun will escalate things. There is no reason to be discourteous until and unless things turn deadly and then you have more important things to worry about.
A gun, like many things, is a tool. It has to be used and handled properly. A lot of people do not like seeing guns because they crystallize issues of justified force, violence, evil, and mortality we do not like to face, but we do face them just the same, usually just unprepared.
Does the way this it getting reported in the media remind anyone else of columbine. They already have the loner tag front and center. Next they will also discover his love of video games. There may not be a serious discussion about hate speech and the 1st amendment, which IMO is the real issue here.
no sig.
Well, to bastardize Carl Von Clousewitz ...."Violence is Politics by another means".
People discussing issues relating to this event in this discussion need to take a deep breath and that realise that politicians and ordinary people are being slaughtered elsewhere in similar ways with barely any notice. If this discussion were to be had a few months from now about this same event people wouldn't care as much and I bet there would be less hostility in everyone's comments. Then again, this is Slashdot in 2011... so it's a matter of how low can we go.
You are a shameful jack ass. Go back to your basement and continue masturbating to your sister's granny panties. You sick fuck.
I see from your comment history that NO ONE thinks you have anything of value to say.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Anyone attributing this to a political cause is an utter idiot, especially if they still believe it after hearing about the shooter.
She was shot because he is crazy. Stop it with the Palin derangement, stop it with the anti-gun dogma, stop it with the 'climate of political hatred' bullshit. The shooter is a lunatic with no coherent beliefs and no sane reasoning. He has been described as a 'pot smoking loner' and a leftist by a former school-mate, so does that mean we need to blame the recent leniency towards cannabis use as the problem? No, not any more than all the other stupid ideas being shouted back and forth.
Jared Loughner is insane. Who are you going to blame for that?
Hi, this is bollocks.
The way to defeat this is simple, to make gun control restrictive enough that criminals cannot source guns legally and to make the laws lax enough that the demand for a black market in firearms is unprofitable and therefore beyond the budget of your average criminal.
This is exactly what happened in Australia, the Asian and Lebanese gangs have to fight with knives which cant do a great deal of crowd damage, in fact it's very hard to do permanent damage to your opponent even if you get the jump on him. So I dont worry about gangs.
We have the odd armed robbery but shootings, fatal or otherwise are such rare occurrences that if it happens to anyone, it's considered nationwide news. Now only organised criminals in AU have guns, these are predominantly our biker gangs or "bikies" who typically run drugs. The brilliant part is that if I have nothing to do with a bikie, I have no fear of being shot or threatened by one.
I'm really sorry you live in a place that requires you to carry a gun to feel safe, I feel perfectly safe anywhere in my nation armed with fist, foot and common sense.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
The only thing that is required to assist everyone, including one's Self, is Love.
Love, at its very core, is more than just an emotion, or feeling.
Love is an overwhelming Drive, an Energetic! It wants, it *needs* to have an outlet.
Love needs a place to grow, to plant itself, germinate, and become entwined
in the garden wherein it habitates.
Some people are of the touchiest of sorts, latching on to anything that gives them
a sense of 'framework,' or purpose.
Unfortunately, many of these types do so without understanding that
Love is the only thing that can make their efforts even moderately worthwhile.
The person--obviously departed from any aspect of being a Gentleman--who attacked
innocent supporters of, and including, Congresswoman Giffords, has not Love.
Please. Everyone. Before we continue to pursue any causes that affect the
General-Public-At-Large:
Before you do, make sure that you
Have Love!
Love In Our Minds
Love In Our Hearts
Love In Our Souls
Love In Our Lives.
Endeavors, done without Love First,
Fail First!
The person who shot all those people failed to Love.
Let's remember this, and Help each other.
Help Each Other By Learning To "Love First!"
Respectfully,
AC
She was actually against gun control and for anyone being allowed to carry guns. I wonder if that will change now.
I wonder what the gun-nuts say who always claim that guns make you safer because the criminal will be gunned down by the honest citizen. Didn't happen in this case, did it?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
If the attacker turns out to be a tea party paranoid type, then I honestly believe people like Beck hold indirect responsibility for the attack.
You obviously haven't spent much time getting to know Beck.
By "leaders of our country," Beck means people like Rep. Giffords. But here you are, holding someone "indirectly responsible for the attack" on Giffords, who in fact implores people to pray for her safety. You're a real, uninformed, piece of work. When you've promoted nonviolence 1% as much as Glenn Beck has -- which you never will in your lifetime, "chebucto" -- come back here and take some more cheap shots at him.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Here in the UK me and my friends and the vast majority of the population don't own guns, and we get by quite nicely without them. Screwdrivers are useful for fixing bicycles and lights, Hammers are useful for fixing pictures to the wall. Spades are useful for digging the vegetable patch. Lots of tools are useful.
But semi-automatic handguns? No, never found myself walking along the street and thinking "dang! what I need to make my life easier would be a semi-automatic handgun!".
Self-defence? I get the feeling in the USA quite a few people don't feel safe unless they have a gun at home. Here very few people would consider getting a gun to protect themselves at home. Different culture I think. We just don't really have many guns here. Even the majority of our police don't carry them.
Is this also true of going out in the evening? do lots of people in the USA feel unsafe about going out to the movies with friends, or going shopping unless they carry a gun?
""Off with their heads! Off with their heads!"
sound like a reasonable UK response to you?"
Over here in the UK we go for ironic humour a lot more. I think you might have missed the inherent joke being made by the students at this point. The quote was from Alice in Wonderland. Students know their European history as well so were alluding to the French Revolution and the guillotine. But the idea that you'd seriously cut royalty's heads off to effect political change would be laughed at here. It was clearly a joke. Even republicans who want to get rid of the monarchy would be happy for them just to be pensioned off to a small house in the countryside, we don't tend to go for death sentences as a legal response here.
Curiously, its interesting to note the undoubtedly armed police officers in the following vehicles didn't feel the need to present their weapons, let alone fire them, in this situation. I guess this shows how little threat they felt the royalty to be in. I suppose in the USA they'd be considering the likelihood of the protestors being armed and would have been more ready to act more aggressively?
Yes, hot-heads are everywhere, this is why the leaders should be very careful with words and discourage this instincts. Instead it seems that Palin caters to the worst impulses and gives these guys the idea that she would applaud violence. I do not find a similar behavior in the democratic party, do you?
I am questioning the leaders' behavior. Inciting the mobs is not ethical. Maybe they are careful with rhetorics and could claim that they never said "she/he should be dead" directly, but this is the message they pass to the followers.
See, if there was a law banning guns it wouldn't just say "Can't have guns. Period.".
Instead, it would describe in detail what KIND of guns, NUMBER of guns, right down to type and number of rounds of ammo you may have in your possession legally.
Then, as I imagine that this would be a brand new law and as such a part of a heavily promoted campaign - there would be collection locations where you could bring in your illegal guns and ammo for collection and later destruction, with full amnesty for possessing now illegal guns and ammo.
There would be a certain set date after which you would no longer be able to do that freely - there would be at least some kind of a fine for not doing that earlier.
But that would depend on the actual law.
Naturally, if it turns out your gun was used to commit a crime, you WOULD be questioned and possibly charged for that offense(s).
Then, after that date passes - police would get their lists of known owners of guns and start going door to door.
Don't worry, they would all have warrants to search your house, car, boat, log cabin etc. - as there is a strong probability that where there is one gun, there are also more guns.
Naturally, that would all go in as civilized way as possible - until some "from my cold dead hands" nut opens fire on police.
From then on, each search would probably be done with expectation of turning into a siege.
Also, you can forget about a fine at this point. Every single illegal piece of ammo would warrant the maximum penalty as described by law - if you decide to "duke it out" with the police.
After a while, the campaign would end, the lists of known and suspected gun owners would be all checked, and from that point on it would be just like it is today regarding illegal drugs.
With the difference that it would be far easier to purchase and posses illegal drugs than illegal guns and ammo - as drugs don't make a loud sound when used, they generally take up lot less space so they are easier to conceal AND it may prove difficult to flush an AK down the drain should someone knock on your door late at night.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
When government gets too big, this is the inevitable result.
Doesn't matter the reason; everyone's got theirs.
If it continues growing, it will self-destruct.
Which is EXACTLY what was said when she first posted it.
So it's okay to encourage shooting specific people BEFORE one of them is shot ... but it's in bad taste to remind everyone that you encouraged shooting specific people AFTER one of them is shot?
And what was the "change in context"? Crosshairs and a list of names.
If those could imply something bad AFTER the shooting then how could they not have implied that BEFORE the shooting?
But feel free to ignore that as you've ignored it all the other times its been posted.
Then you are going to have to link to a post of mine where I posted that she was. Otherwise you're lying. But that's what I'm demonstrating with this thread.
I would suggest you not use words that you do not understand. She did not pull the trigger. And you should not try to imply that I said she did. But, again, that's what this thread is about. I'm demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Again, don't use words you don't understand. It isn't "libel" and you're a liar for saying that it is.
If Sarah didn't think there was anything wrong with it then she wouldn't have taken it down. It's as simple as that.
Don't use synonyms. That's an equivocation fallacy.
You might also want to brush up on your understanding of pronouns.
Did I say you said that? No. So your "red herring" is a strawman. And a pretty pathetic one at that.
What I said was that you were trying to imply that I had said that. Here's your direct quote:
Like I said, don't use words that you don't understand. I never posted that she actualized the shooting. That is you lying and claiming that I said that.
Then you're going to have to link to one of my posts where I said that because I haven't posted that. You're lying, again.
And yet she's pulled that poster after the shooting.
Thanks. It's always good to have a nutjob reveal himself in a thread.
Giffords supported gun ownership and owned a gun herself.
That's a good mix of hard right and hard left. I'd say they're just pure anarchist with a mix of pure crazy.
You know, I see a lot of this language. "We can't put him in a box, he's obviously crazy."
I have a wide mix of left and right beliefs. I think that gun control means being able to hit your target, that abortions before a certain time should be legal, that immigrants who entered the country illegally need to leave and come back in legally if at all, and that any two people should be able to marry each other if they want to (and, c'mon, valuing your currency against a precious metal isn't exactly a crazy idea). Like "the crazy" in this story, I also live in AZ and own guns. So, am I crazy? Am I some "weird" outsider suitable for ignoring because my political views happen to come from both columns? Are you only a valid citizen if you can put either a D or R next to your name? Your comment stands at +5 insightful, so several people must agree with you, what's the deal?
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
I noticed a pattern forming regarding the reporting of this story. One I've seen before. The young man who did this had, as stated by the sheriff on the scene yesterday, sang like a bird regarding his political views. As of late yesterday the media began to report that there were no statements by the shooter. Suddenly, we don't get to know his views and thus why he had committed wanton mass murder. Today, his online ramblings have been removed.
It is within the corporatist interest to censor violence that may have a causal connection to the rhetoric the corporations put out, namely the demonizing of anything 'Liberal'. After all, does anyone know what Timothy McVeigh thought when he blew innocent people in Oklahoma to bits? No, because the media didn't print that. They didn't even interview him or print any statements he made. The story always comes down to the same, lame, narrative... he was a quiet seemly normal guy. Like the guy who opened fire in Penn. on three police officers because Glenn Beck was telling him, at the time, Obama was going to take his guns away. The guy who shot a doctor on the steps of the doctors church because Bill O'Reilly called that doctor a murderer over and over for weeks. There are many other cases but the corporations don't report why these people do these things. We are left to mourn and to guess and wonder as too why.
As the Sheriff in Arizona wisely said about what inspired the young shooter; 'it might be free speech but there are consequences.'
I am one of her constituents.
I voted for her because her opposition was even whackier.
I ALSO voted for the proposition to exclude Arizona from the very same healthcare bill. A majority of Arizona voters agreed with me, and we are now excluded.
Gabby Giffords doesn't represent me, her district, or our best interests. We showed THAT through referendum.
I sure don't know everything about everything, but I *read* that bill before I voted for the Proposition to exclude Arizona. She admitted she did not.
It's not a republic. It's not a representative democracy. It's Demagoguery Gone Wild.
E
Erm, anarchists wouldn't like the Communist Manifesto *or* Mein Kampf!
True they don't like politicians or governments though.
I'm disgusted, but not surprised how Slashdotters accused Palin and the Tea Party before having any actual facts before them.
http://biggovernment.com/jhoft/2011/01/09/breaking-democrats-plotted-to-blame-tea-party-for-slaughter/#more-214344
I don't care the affiliation of this murderer. He deserves to be tried and, hopefully executed, for his crimes.
Frankly for all their claims to peace and cooperation, Liberals have killed far more people than conservatives. Just look at the history of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and Hitler (yes a SOCIALIST) and its really easy to do the math.
For sure, not personally as I am not that old but aware that the USA has its own culture. Your rights, your decisions. From over this side of the pond it seems an interesting anachronism, you needed them in 1776 but then your founding fathers also thought slaves were a good idea and you've got over that. So clearly as a country you have changed in some of your views over time. Just to put your mind at rest: we're not thinking of invading again, we kind of left that behind a couple of hundred years ago. Over here we just tend to get by without guns. Nobody really thinks about owning one apart from farmers and a very small number of hunters and hobby shooters.
I am still interested in a response to my question though, do you and your friends feel unsafe if you go out without weapons? Say to watch a movie or go shopping or similar?
I'll take "hyperbole" for $200! Yes sir, thank you.
In 1996, 35 people were shot dead and 21 were seriously injured by a lone gunman in the tourist village of Port Arthur, Tasmania (Australia).
The response by both State and Federal Governments was to introduce some of the toughest gun control laws in the world. Gun crime fell significantly and has stayed low ever since.
Yes, criminals still get guns, yes, the odd "archival" firearm turns up in a crime, but overall, Australia is a safer place to live now because guns are tightly restricted to police, military, sports shooting clubs and limited rural applications.
The snivel libertarians will say, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," but people with guns kill people more effectively than any other way and we're safer without them.
"I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
Only if you consider hunting to the be the sole legitimate use of guns. Self defense is a perfectly legitimate use of guns, and semi-auto handguns are generally the best option for self defense due to their size and maneuverability.
Furthermore, statistics about countries really don't show much. There are places with stricter gun control laws and which have higher gun crime, and places with lenient gun control laws with less crime and vice versa. If you pick and choose specific regions you can show a correlation in either direction. Either way socioeconomics almost always has a stronger correlation with gun crimes than the availability of guns.
"Go fuck yourself" -Dick Cheney
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
"Your comment stands at +5 insightful, so several people must agree with you, what's the deal?"
Ignoring the fact that mental illness has no relation to violent and certainly doesn't explain the cause any better than saying he was male or the sky was blue, I think it is just a way to "other" the person. If he is different then we don't have to really consider the reasons behind WHY he did what he did. We just assume the label is the reason and continue in our (blissful) ignorance.
"That's what I said elsewhere -- he's an anarchist, not right-wing Palinbot."
If we assume that is true, that doesn't really help your argument. Because that side has been spouting a signficant amount of anti-government rhetoric for a significant amount of time. Where exactly did he get the idea to take out this particular person? And why?
Based on your assumption you could make the case that extreme views of either spectrum could have pushed him to commit an act of political violence. But we don't have that situation at the present time.
This is Slashdot. We are the scientific, technical, and logical people of the world - let's be scientific. Let's do a benchmark, so to speak. We'll take a few states that want strong gun laws and give them those laws. We'll take a few states that DON'T want strong gun laws and weaken their laws. Then we can compare the results after a few years. Real people can put their opinion aside and try science.
Oh stop before you embarrass yourself. The guy's friends even say he's a leftist, if you can find a political motive (which I doubt you will -- I think he was just crazy, and she was the closest government type figure he could find) it will likely be that he was upset Congresswoman Gifford was so moderate.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
In fact there doesn't appear to be a correlation at all between them. There are places like Pakistan that have a high amount of gun ownership that are also very dangerous. There are places in Europe that also have a high amount of gun ownership but very low gun violence crimes. There are places like Japan which have very low gun ownership and tough restrictions and yet have very low gun violence crimes. There are places like Mexico that also have very tough gun ownership laws but gun crime is very high. Mexico is an interesting case where a lot of the crime and guns are probably due a neighbor....
In any event, what makes a place safe or dangerous appears to be the culture where neither ownership of guns or laws over guns seems to effect. If we want people to stop shooting each other in the US then I recommend we stop the aggressive attitude and hyper, reflexive response instead of arming or disarming people. Basically it doesn't matter if you give everyone a gun or take everyone's guns away if they are rude, cure and hate each other which kind of describes part of the political climate doesn't it?
I'm going to stand in front of your house with a megaphone, and tell anyone passing by your house for a year that someone should throw rocks through your window.
Then someone throws a rock through your window.
Then I'm going to say that the guy who did that is a crazy loner, and his actions have nothing to do with me and my megaphone for a year.
Thank you, Right Wing America, for your awesome sense of responsibility, and your awesome sense of integrity. Stay classy, Right Wing
pffffffffffft
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
if i stand in front of your house for a year saying someone should throw a rock through your window, then someone does
are you going to let me get away with me saying i have nothing to do with it?
please try to apply the slightest bit of intellectual honesty in the bullshit you say next time, ok asshole?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Yes, hot-heads are everywhere, this is why the leaders should be very careful with words and discourage this instincts. Instead it seems that Palin caters to the worst impulses and gives these guys the idea that she would applaud violence. I do not find a similar behavior in the democratic party, do you?
I am questioning the leaders' behavior. Inciting the mobs is not ethical. Maybe they are careful with rhetorics and could claim that they never said "she/he should be dead" directly, but this is the message they pass to the followers.
Yeah their presidential candidate applauds violence by saying thing like "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun". Their House candidate incite the mobs by running a campaign ad with his opponent in a crosshair. And most horrifyingly, they make US maps marked with "targets" for their followers to shoot up.
I would have to concede that it would be difficult for me to find Democrats doing similar stuff... oh wait.
The violent rhetoric in American society comes, almost exclusively, from the right-wing:
George Bush received about 8 death threats a day.
Barack Obama receives about 30 death threats a day.
Think about it.
Warning: This sig is not thread safe. For more information see Slashdot's sig policy.
I didn't evaluate him as crazy because of those views. I evaluated him as crazy because he killed a group of people with no rational goal.
If he had a rational goal then he'd just be evil. I haven't heard of anything like that, so he must just be crazy/irrational.
You're trolling, but I'll bite.
In my opinion the most important reason for guns is self defense. With a gun, a 90-pound woman is on equal footing with any attacker who has a gun, and has the advantage over any attacker without one -- provided that she knows how to use it properly and is willing to kill rather than be raped/murdered/whatever. I believe that the right to defend oneself is an inalienable right -- it's the life part of "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness".
Do guns cause or exacerbate other problems? Yes. You have to take the bad with the good. People are free to use alcohol and this causes problems, too, but I don't think most people in the U.S. are in favor of prohibition of alcohol. I'm sure there are better examples that will occur to me after I press Submit.
A gun for self-defense is like insurance -- you hope you won't need it, but you want it there in the unfortunate case that you do. It is simply impossible for the police to protect everyone at all times. I'm sure there are plenty of guns=glory people out there, but I think they are the idiot minority.
That never happened.
Today mental health is the step child of the medical profession and even more so in the eyes of health insurance.
I can get someone to run a scope up my behind and look for colon cancer and all the treatment that might result from that... But not so for mental health.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Wikipedia admins like sucking vandal cock.
Case C: possession of a gun is a crime. Therefore when you're found with a gun and NOBODY was hurt, gun crime numbers increased.
Case D: child plays with daddy's gun, shoots mommy and himself
Case E: idiot gets drunk, has argument with wife, kills wife and self in remorse
Case ZZZZZZZ: Gun available, one shot can kill, multiple axe smashes can happen before submission takes place, meanwhile screams and fleeing occupants make fewer casualties than bang bang bang...
I wonder how Joe Manchin feels about his political ad where he shot the Cap and Trade bill with his rifle?
Now compare the length of that thread to Fox.
violent video games cause gamers to kill people, movies depicting rape cause men to savage women, and the word nigger in books like Huckleberry Finn make readers racist...
You can't use logic to reason people out of a position they never reasoned them-self into in the first place.
If you truly believe that any party or its media machine is to more to blame for these than the other (or at all), you didn't use reason to arrive at your position.
... is one in which a gunman starts shooting people in a public place, and comes under fire from one or more "good guy" bystanders in the crowd. The argument from gun ownership proponents is that this situation would be better than the default (in which the gunman is the only one doing the shooting). My argument is that it would be worse, because of the likelihood of even more danger to innocent bystanders (plus: what the hell are responding law enforcement people supposed to do in this situation? Just shoot everyone?).
True but irrelevant. What you're saying is that most people aren't, in fact, running around carrying pistols in the hopes of defeating gunmen. My point is that if they did start doing that, we'd be worse off and not better.
Also true but irrelevant. Getting killed in a shootout in a grocery store is statistically fantastically improbable. I am, in fact, a lot more worried about dying in some form of a car wreck than I am about getting shot. But it's still true that having lots of people running around with guns makes me MORE likely to get shot, not less.
Woot! A new freak! And an idiot to boot!
"Bring a gun to a knife fight" is just a reference to bringing overwhelming force against opposition. If your opponent has a knife, you bring a knife and have roughly equal odds of survival. You bring a gun and remove all doubt. Your opponent spends $1 million on his campaign, you spend $100 million on yours. If you want to win, leave no doubt. Get it? Or did you really think Obama was talking about carrying a gun?
As for crosshairs? How about this? Personally, I can see the difference between the symbolism of marking someone with crosshairs as a target for "defeat" as opposed to one that needs to be shot. Some nuts, obviously, can't. While I don't believe that anyone was calling for anyone's death, I will point out that whoever releases these images should realize that they hold some accountability for how people will interpret them. Personal accountability has never been a strong part for politicians though.
Also, interestingly, your 3rd link at verumserum calls out the media for getting all worked up over Palin's crosshair. The EXACT SAME LOGIC could be applied to your chest-thumping about how some Democrats put bullseyes on maps. On top of that, those bullseyes were just on a map; they weren't crosshairs superimposed over an actual person's face.
And, finally, how many are dead now due to violence from the left?
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
...is that Rep. Giffords hadn't even arrived at the hospital before one of her aids appeared on FOX and CNN blaming the Tea Party. Never mind that the whole POINT of the Tea Party is to work within the system, any excuse to vilify them, even a mass shooting of one's boss and innocent bystanders, must be used. What was that Democratic motto Beck was castigated for mentioning? Oh, yes, "Never let a good crises go to waste."
My sympathy to Rep. Giffords and the other victims of this tragedy. Now let us ALL learn the lesson, monsters are made, not born, and as a culture we continue to operate the monster factory. Can we drop the "Socialism at any cost" on one side and "Democrats are evil cockroaches" on the other? Please?
And, finally, how many are dead now due to violence from the left?
Hopefully Giffords and others wounded will all make a successful recovery and it won't grow anymore than six.
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932290&cid=34749168