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Assange Could Face Execution Or Guantanamo Bay
An anonymous reader writes "WikiLeaker-in-chief Julian Assange faces the real danger of being executed or languishing in the US prison camp at Guantánamo Bay if, as a result of his extradition to Sweden, he ends up in the hands of the Americans, his lawyers argue. In a skeleton summary of Assange's defence, posted online, Assange's lawyers argue that it is likely that the US would seek his extradition 'and/or illegal rendition' from Sweden. In the United States 'there will be a real risk of him being detained at Guantánamo Bay or elsewhere,' his lawyers write."
Of course his attorneys are doing whatever they can to prevent him shipping out. Is this news?
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Maybe I'm missing something, but last I knew "We don't like him" wasn't a valid reason for shipping to Gitmo or executions (not that there always is a valid reason, but still...). Assange isn't a US citizen, so that throws treason out the window, so what's the justification?
Yup, it's 2011. So why does feel so much like 1984?
This is so much hyperbole it is not even funny. He should get some proper representation instead of these loudmouth lawyers.
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
I have the very real possibility of owning the Golden Gate Bridge according to the nice gentleman who just came by!
I'm not saying it's good that America does these things. I have a tremendous sense of schadenfreude about the American government feeling some pain for its indefinite detention and torturing. As an American, I'm disgusted that my government has betrayed our ideals, but I also know that as one person I'm very unlikely to effect change. Maybe Assange can take our government to task more effecitively than any normal American citizen could.
"Send him to Detroit!"
They are just using that as an excuse to not let him get extradited. As so many people have pointed out here before, publishing classified information is not a crime in the US. The person that leaked it to the entity publishing the information is the one that broke the law. Just because on Fox News they maintain the narrative that he should be eliminated doesn't mean it is going to happen. This is just FUD.
Granted his lawyers are just doing what lawyers do, they are trying to find some way to win. But I hope it doesn't work.
With the way Sweden made their rape laws, he is lucky that they don't have a death penalty for men saying hello to women first.
Home of The Suki Series
I hope if that man ends up on American soil that the citizens of this country (US) riot and raise fucking hell. What our government plans to do is wrong, it's illegal, and they know it. So does every citizen and every member of the press.
Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
In related news, the Guardian has in-depth coverage of his extradition hearing, including a list of legal arguments he's making and how the death threats he's received from US politicians are particularly worrying in light of the shooting in Arizona. Also, the right-wing blogger behind JulianAssangeMustDie.com has been exposed. The domain was registered by Melissa Clouthier.
That's pretty funny. If the US wanted him "renditioned", they would have had him already from the UK. He's much more likely to be safe from US rendition in Sweden.
However, in Sweden, he will have to get up on the stand and answer for his sexual behavior, and that's what he's really worried about.
It's not entirely clear from what I've read that he's an actual rapist, but it sure sounds like he's a real jerk.
Wow, I'm surprised they didn't offer up anal probes in area 51 to go along with the rest... This guy needs to get a grip, get off his ego trip and realize that his stunts cause real harm to people the world over.
Of course the US is seeking to extradite him, to put him on trial for spying and other damages. That being said, execution for spies is a legal tradition going back to prehistory, so there's a few thousand plus years of precedent to call on.
Just remember, wikileaks next victim might be someone or something that you support. That's the problem with anarchy groups like wikileaks, they're as likely to turn against you as anything else.
Look, I know the US hasn't had a stellar record of late, but come on. We're not to the point of ruthless dictatorship yet. If anything, I think extradition to the US would generate more much needed light on the fundamental concepts of freedom of speech in this country. "prominent figures have implied... that he should be executed" Uh huh... Since when did Palin start making policy decisions again?
While I believe that Wikileaks is likely some form of an intel operation/possible manipulation in and of itself to some degree, I still support the concept behind Wikileaks.
Unfortunately I think that this statement by his lawyers may be correct. It's sad, but America is no longer the beacon of hope and freedom for the world that it once was - it's a bloated, corrupted, fading superpower. In a way we're the world's largest banana republic. It makes me very sad, because I love my country - but loving your country doesn't mean shying away from criticizing the government or exposing it's misdeeds - in fact, it means the opposite. This nation was supposedly founded on dissent and the rights of man, and to hear those in power try spin the law (including the Constitution) to suit their twisted needs is sickening.
The fact that this argument cannot be dismissed as ridiculous, hyperbolic poppycock is testament to how far the United States has fallen in the world's estimation.
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
Does anyone believe that the fact he is in UK custody doesn't effectively place him in US custody, more than Swedish custody would?
Assange has said more than once, as if speaking to his supporters in America, that "they" are going to be the ones to stop "the government" from "getting him". So, he and his lawyers use things that will strike a chord, like claiming he'll be sent to Guantanamo Bay (as the current administration is so keen to do) or that he'll be killed, whether by the death penalty or otherwise (when it isn't clear that there is any legal basis on which to prosecute him).
This is just another part of his campaign to influence US public opinion, which is exactly what he does with Wikileaks. This is the real Julian Assange.
Obama closed G-To as part of his change campaign.
Assange is being accused of "sex by surprise", which is a Swedish law that states that you need explicit permission to engage in consensual relations each time it happens, no matter what happens before or after. In his case, the woman he "attacked" made him breakfast after her "rape", and they continued their relationship for weeks, until she met a different woman who had also slept with him (after acting like a virtual stalker towards him).
It was only after they compared notes, that they approached Assange and asked him to get a STD test. He refused, and they spoke to the police.
Initially prosecutors declined to take this case, but then the whole Wikileaks scandal broke, and a different prosecutor (from a different area of the country) was assigned to the case, and tried to peruse it.
Assange repeatedly tried to speak to this prosecutor, but she apparently did not want to speak to him. Eventually, he was told he was free to leave the country, which he did.
Now we learn that at least one of the women supposedly who accused him of this is not cooperating with the prosecutors.
I'm not sure what to call any of this, and I'm completely torn about whether Wikileaks is good or bad, but this sure as hell isn't any normal kind of rape accusation to me. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Awesome movie idea! Wait....
that guantanamo bay ... despite who you have elected have PROMISED you that he would shut it up ... and the ones before him, are the ones who opened it in the first place...
maybe it is time you realize that your government & economic system works against you people.
Read radical news here
Yep. I'm hope people in the US get the message that the rest of the world no longer thinks of us a country of laws.
This is pretty thin. It's not clear that Assange could be vulnerable to criminal charges of say, treason, in the US since he is not a citizen of, nor loyal to, the US. WikiLeaks does not have servers in the US. Moreover the 'figures' that the lawyers cites as saying Assange should be executed have no actual authority in the US. They cite Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee, neither of whom hold political office and (I'm guessing - and hoping) will not have any official political power in the near future.
This is Assange's own lawyers trying to prevent extradition to Sweden, which has actually filed criminal charges against him. I'm all for what Assange does, but this is exceedingly unlikely to come to pass.
The argument can be dismissed as ridiculous, hyperbolic poppycock by anyone with a functioning brain.
How is it that people fail to realize that if the US truly wanted him that they would have him? I almost wonder if the Government isn't using him as a diversion from something else.
Counter-intuitively, what turned out to be kind of a shitcase for Assage personally, is also a good thing for Wikileaks, as it simply draws more popular attention to their releases. Actually, I would not call Assange stupid even if he keeps blowing on this flame, as it would be quite selfless. Remember: just like any news is bad news in a fire department, any news is good news in a newspaper.
Not just in the world's estimation, but also in its own citizens' estimation.
Sounds like the rantings of a paranoid schizophrenic. Reminds me of the SNL skits where Assange reminds people that no matter how he dies, even if it's decades from now and peacefully in his sleep, "it was murder!".
If you were to take his argument to its logical conclusion, he's saying that any crime he may have committed cannot result in punishment otherwise he might also be punished very harshly for a completely different offence?
So he may have robbed a bank, shanked the queen of Sweden, and sold half the population of Stockholm into slavery, but you can't extradite him because the Swedish might send him to the united states?
Obviously a little different from the charges he's facing, but what crime would he have to be charged with to allow him to be extradited to Sweden? Or does his noble actions with Wikileaks cause him to be immune for any other offence he committed?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Assange is being accused of "sex by surprise" [...]
No he's not. This "sex by surprise" stuff is some shit his lawyers made up. Do your fucking research before running off your mouth.
Are you adequate?
More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
> If his *own* government wants to give him up and ship him here that really sounds like an issue for him, his countrymen, and *his* government.
His own government is the Australian government, not Sweden or the UK. And Australia is in no position to hand him over to anyone right now.
So being a jerk is illegal now?
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
He does not have "actually filed criminal charges against him." RTFA: "Assange is wanted for questioning in [Sweden] over allegations of sexual impropriety made by two women. He has not been charged with any offence and has offered to answer any questions the prosecutors may have."
Since he's Australian I'd expect the government to prevent extradition if there was potential for him to be executed, like the did for Gabe Watson here. And Gabe was an Aermican citizen!
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
[ST8Z6FR57ABE6A8RE9UF]
Assange is being accused of "sex by surprise"
As many others have stated, this is bullshit. There is no such law, it was a rape joke made up by his lawyer. I challenge you to find the law you talk about.
The International Public Prosecution Office in Gothenburg that wants him extradited even after at least 2 prosecutors have stopped their investigation is accidentally also near a certain business called Boeing Jeppesen which hosts the Boeing Jeppesen international trip planning aka Illegal/Extraordinary Rendition Airlines right there. Do you really think that's coincidence?
Of course, they could just as well pick him up in the UK but the current political environment might not be as cooperative to that sort of action as the Blair/Brown government was.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I had expected this kind of troll from Timothy, but CmdrTaco?
WTF?
I'm not sure what to call any of this, and I'm completely torn about whether Wikileaks is good or bad, but this sure as hell isn't any normal kind of rape accusation to me. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
One of the oldest tricks in the spy books, is using sex-traps, also called honey pots. The famous East German spy chief, Markus Wolf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_wolf , the "Man without a face" developed this into an art. He sent agents to act as Casanovas for lonely political secretaries, and the other way around.
When I first heard of the Assange allegations, I thought, "Yeah, computer geek walks into a bar, an pulls twice in four days."
Does not compute. Someone set him up with those chicks.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Only a small percentage of the cables have been published but between these and the reaction of some in powerful and dangerous positions in the US government, consider what hasn't been published.
I think its fair to say the article is most probably accurate and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the reason for the recent slowing of published cables may be due to Wikileaks energies being used to find and compile from the cables reason to firmly believe what the article is about.
If you think there is sanity being expressed by the US government, DOD, DOJ and communicated by a media many recognize as forced biased then perhaps you need to consider how much of the US citizens tax dollar is being spent on defense and how it compares to the rest of the world. And this instead of doing a lot that we know how to do, to fix real world problems.
But even more so, that insanely massive defense budget seems to be so useless against Wikileaks.
Why is that?
Clearly (if you'll look at the facts, but who wants to do that?) there are those in powerful and dangerous positions within the US government that are in need of psychological address concerning their lack of morals and ethics.
If memory serves me right, both the UK and Sweden are members of the Council of Europe, as well as signatories of the European Agreement on Human Rights. Now, the agreement expressly forbids extradition if there's a chance of capital punishment in the recipient country. Which means that Assange cannot be legally turned over to US custody, since Gitmo violates the human rights treaties massively, and execution ... well, we all know the deal.
So the only recourse left for the US is kidnapping by CIA, but that's going to get them in a sticky situation too, even if it won't submit to the International Court of Justice's authority.
Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
Not that it has ever happened before, but since anything negative said about the USA is automatically believed and embraced I think we can all agree his best defense is that if he is sent to the USA he will likely be dipped in peanut butter, and dropped in a pen full of grizzly bears. Cuz, we do that sorta thing. ;-)
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
We need to face facts. The state of our society is degrading rapidly. Those who seek to purvey a state of terror across the face of the world respect no boundaries or laws, and I'm certainly not talking about any "ragheads" or "Hajii's" pardon the overabused racist terminology. The stories and events surrounding this societological paradigm shifting point in history have done very little to point out new ideas or suspicions. These ideas and suspicions have merely bubbled to the surface, gotten out of the basement full of humming computers and empty Doritos bags, and onto the street where more humdrum workaday people can actually see them and think about them.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
I dont know why Slashdot stoops to this rumor mongering.
Actually Mr. Assange's issue is that he stayed in Sweden for weeks offering to talk about the allegations but no-one would. When he left the country they wanted to talk to him. He has offered to answer questions by phone or teleconference. He has not been charged with anything. Think about the scenario where the police ask a few questions, wait till he leaves the country and demand he return for a few more questions; rinse and repeat. His point is that he does not have to return to Sweden every time the Swedish police have a question.
Technically, Assange could be sent to Guantanamo, but this is mostly just an argument his lawyers are making. They are claiming that it would be illegal to hand him over, knowing that he could end up getting tortured or denied a fair trial, as a result. But, is this anything more than speculation on the part of his attorney?
Correlation != Causation.
Read the news stories more carefully -- not the analysis ones, just the plain news. Giffords was shot by a reportedly deranged man with no ties to any discernible political philosophy.
It just so happens that Giffords was also the target of tasteless rhetoric a few months before she was shot. The media needs to cool down on the hype until we know more.
By law (utlänningslagen, also possibly various international conventions) Sweden can't extradite him, or anyone else, to the USA, or any country where, if he is eligible for or risks the death penelty.
I'm sure they'll find some legal wiggle room for it tho if they have to, just like they do for other things they "need" to get done, but I would expect somewhat of an outcry if it happened.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Based on Ockham's razor, I'm actually not convinced there is any foul play afoot in this case. Living in Sweden, my impression of Swedish prosecutors is that they love borderline cases like this. I think it's got something to do with clarifying the boundaries of law by forcing a court to pass judgement, and thereby create a precedent. Or at least that's what they use to argue.
Therefore, there is no need to include conspiracy to explain what has transpired so far. My guess (as a layman) is that the two women contacted the police to force an STD test, and that someone hearing their story saw a wonderful opportunity to prosecute an unclear case. With publicity as a bonus.
He did not commit treason, as he is not a US citizen. He could be charged with espionage, which in the last 40 years or so has resulted in a maximum sentence of life in prison. There is no parole or time off for good behavior as there is in most state correctional systems. He could also be charged with receiving stolen property or wire fraud, possibly racketeering under the RICO statutes if it's proven he colluded with Private Manning. The Private, on the other hand, could be stood up against a wall for committing treason while under arms under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Nothing to see here but us trolls...move along...
If you strike Assange Down he will become more powerful than you can imagine!
... the woman he "attacked" made him breakfast after her "rape"...
Yes, but if she gave him lutfisk for breakfast it might have been attempted murder via poisoning.
That is all.
Laws today are merely unenforced loopholes that they can "get you" on if they so choose. We don't need a billion laws and a trillion jursidictions with differing laws. It's simple folks: treat your fellow humans with respect and they will treat you the same. Oh and don't crash into my Bently.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
In Sweden I understand he would face a panel of people at least half selected by the government and not a jury.
That's pretty funny. If the US wanted him "renditioned", they would have had him already from the UK. He's much more likely to be safe from US rendition in Sweden.
Really?
From cable 07STOCKHOLM506:
"Swedish military and civilian intelligence organizations are strong and reliable partners on a range of
key issues[...]. Due to domestic political considerations, the extent of this cooperation in not widely known within the Swedish government and it would be useful to acknowledge this cooperation privately, as
public mention of the cooperation would open up the government to domestic criticism."
No, but sex without consent is, and from what I've read he did not necessarily have consent for some of his sexcapades.
It's up to a judge & jury to decide if what he did was illegal, the prosecutor only has to decide if its worthy of prosecution.
Dear Captain Speculation,
Please don't join the media in speculating anything about this guy. Right now all that's known is he's off balance at the very least, had issues with currency policy, and agreed with the second constitution group.
Nobody knows whether or not he listened to any particular radio shows, was a fan of Palin or even saw the map.
Please stop assigning thoughts to this guy before qualified people actually find out.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
If the U.S. was really willing to ignore all the rules to get him (as his lawyer is suggesting), it wouldn't matter. The fact is, it's pretty tough to end up in Gitmo unless you're found with a detonator in hand in Afghanistan, and it certainly doesn't happen when there is this much PR around a case. And really, being extradited from one of America's closest allies to a neutral country seems like it would be a move in his favor if the concern was really being handed over to the CIA or some such thing. Seems like another attempt to divert the focus from the charges at hand.
IANAL, However it seems that a good portion of Title 18 Chapter 37 ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP pertain to him.
# 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information (Gathering, yes. Transmitting, maybe)
# 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government (maybe)
# 795. Photographing and sketching defense installations (maybe)
# 796. Use of aircraft for photographing defense installations (probably not)
# 797. Publication and sale of photographs of defense installations (maybe)
# 798. Disclosure of classified information (Yes. "or publishing")
For more info, try here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_37.html
Remember, they don't have to be content with what was just leaked recently. The DoJ can go back in time and drag out everything that they can prove was _EVER_ leaked on his site and use it to convict him of ESPIONAGE. If he's extradited, he's screwed.
We do know more. This was the second murder attempt of someone on that list.
That... doesn't mesh with what we know of Clouthier's opinions.
Hell, I pay people to do that to me!
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Oh man, I'm boned.
-- Linux user #369862
Perchance are you a believer in pink flying squirrels on the moon Europa?
> This is so much hyperbole it is not even funny.
Right, because we've never executed people for this sort of thing before. And, even though we'd put innocent US citizens in Gitmo, there's no way we'd do that to someone who isn't even a US national, neatly sidestepping all that "fair trial" nonsense by labeling him as some kind of "enemy combatant" or whatever.
And, even though we have politicians calling for Julian Assange to be assassinated, there's no way that anyone would ever even think of taking them seriously. Ever.
That's total hyperbole, right? Nobody here is that crazy... right?
Whoever the fools are that designed the security system that lets tons of top-secret documents be easily purloined are the ones that should end up in Guantanamo.
shut down Git bay 2 years ago like he said he would. Oh wait! But seriously what US law did he break? Good PR by his lawyers though. Since he could face the death penalty the Euro rules say that he can't be extradited. Time to top up the retainer.
Under the terms of a European Arrest Warrant, he can be transferred from the arresting country (UK) to the country issuing the Warrant (Sweden), but he cannot be transferred from there to any other country; he must be sent back to the UK in the event the arrest is cancelled/ charges are dropped/ he's declared innocent.
Under the European Arrest Warrant system, the offence should be an offence both in the UK and in Sweden, unless a prison sentence in excess of 3 years is likely. The only allegation which would meet these criteria is a genuine charge of rape, which Assange is clearly not guilty of.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
The only advantage to keeping a prisoner in Guantánamo was that the prisoners could be considered outside the US legal jurisdiction. The US Supreme court, in June of 2008, essentially overturned that argument and stated that all Guantanamo captives were entitled to the protection of the United States Constitution. There would be no advantage to moving Julian Assange to Guantánamo by the US Government.
Of course, his lawyers can argue this all they want. But should the Swedish court throw that argument out as outlandish, they may throw other arguments out as well.
Lou
I don't really care what the rest of the world thinks, its not a popularity contest.
We do live in a nation of laws, look at what happened in Tucson after the Congresswoman was shot, the suspect showed up for a mugshot without any marks on his face, was arraigned in court, all the Judges in Arizona recused themselves because they knew one of the shooters victims.
The point of all that is, even when someone tries to kill a Congresswoman, kills a Federal Judge, the police did not retaliate, the suspect made it to court safely and none of the other Judges are out for his blood. Everything happened just like its supposed to.
More to the point, Assange isn't by any definition an 'enemy combatant'. So despite the fact that 1) He didn't steal any classified information, 2) the US hasn't even tried to file charges or put out a warrant, 3) he isn't an 'enemy combatant', 4) Obama is trying to close Gitmo in any event, it is quite unlikely he will ever see the inside of a US prison.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
See, after this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hitandrun-iraqi-can-stay-in-uk-2162049.html, the UK refused to send this noble Iraqi back after bravely killing a 12 year old girl whilst disqualified from driving, then heroically running away, because he similarly might be executed.
How fortunate we are the UK government set this amazing precedent and Julian can rest assured there is no duplicity now they've finally grown a pair.
Of course this is attorney scaremongering.
But I guess we can agree on one thing: IF, big IF, this should happen this way, the US are no better than China.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
He isn't an American.
We in the US don't belong to the International Courts.
Hence, he is not subject to them.
It's like me deciding to arrest Dick Cheney for crimes in Nigeria and "extraditing" him there.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I agree with you: JA has done what I think he can be expected to do to help the authorities. When first the case arose, according to Swedish media at least, he stayed in Sweden a number of days (maybe a few weeks) until he got official word he could leave the country. Once he left the country, they couldn't wait to get their hands on him...
As far as I am concerned, someone in the prosecutors office needs to loose their job, and they needed to loose it yesterday!. At least one person, maybe more.
Please notice, though, that I live in Sweden, and this may have warped my view on the matter.
As a funny side note, I can pass on an anecdote from our legal system. Sometimes they do actually do "the right thing", as they did with Ioan Ursut, a Rumanian (?) criminal in Swedish prison. When he had two weeks (!) left of his 10-year sentence, he was pardoned. The media started asking questions about this, and the truth eventually came out: he was wanted by Italy, on bank-robbery charges. If IU had served all his ten years the Swedish law requires that the autorities actually let him go. By giving him a pardon just short of full term, they could keep him locked up till they cleared up the paperwork needed to extradite him to Italy...
I keep seeing posts referring to Assange as a jerk or asshole, what exactly is this in response to?
He stands up for wikileaks as he should and doesnt take crap from shoddy journalists.
His lawyers issued a statement and it sounds like hes a real jerk? ok..
One difference here is that it's actually likely he get sentence to life in a high security prison (hell) or death. Politicians also asked for this to happen to him in different countries.
Except he deserves none of it of course. So yeah, that's actually why it makes it to the news.
The reason is of course that they want him out of there, not that the legal system would bring him to death or life sentence if he was an average joe.
I would point out that you are merely quoting the "she said" portion of "he said, she said". There is no more proof that is what actually occurred than what he said. It is just as much "bullshit" as the claim of "sex by surprise".
Remember, you can't look dignified when your having fun! Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive
I like the argument that “there will be a real risk of him being detained at Guantánamo Bay or elsewhere” - especially the "elsewhere" part. That could be anywhere, like a "regular jail." No kidding. This is what happens when you’re arrested.
You don't think the contents of that cable wouldn't also apply, just about word for word, with the UK?
I don't read AC A human right
There are no current formal charges against Assange in Sweden, he is being extradited only for questioning, not to face any current charges. There were charges but they were dropped before he left Sweden.
If anyone I have an opportunity to vote for is in favor of persecuting Assange then they will not get my vote.
Unfortunately, that is all I can really do about this.
I would point out that you are merely quoting the "she said" portion of "he said, she said". There is no more proof that is what actually occurred than what he said
Correct. I originally used the word allegations but it seems to have been lost in editing. He has not been charged with anything, but I quoted some of the allegations.
It is just as much "bullshit" as the claim of "sex by surprise".
This is not true. It is a fact that he was accused of what I described. It is also a fact that he was not accused of "sex by surprise", as no such crime exists. Thus in relation to "the accusations against him," one statement is bullshit and the other is not. Whether the allegations hold up doesn't change what he was accused of.
It's not about "jurisdiction" when we're talking about rendition or assassination.
It's about being a target of the United States and not having an army to defend you.
You have a problem with the idea that Assange is a potential target for assassination or rendition and imprisonment without trial, or without even being charged with a crime? You and what army are going to do exactly what about it?
That's where we are now. Who cares about jurisdiction?
"...since anything negative said about the USA is automatically believed and embraced..."
Perhaps your government (amongst others) should start a process of thinking long and hard about why this might be.
They did that to me once. Lucky for me the bears had peanut allergies.
These negative statements about USA are believable because similar things have happened before to other people.
So one woman has a crazy theory about a sabotaged condom, and the other was offended that Assange touched her with his penis while he was living with her some days after they had had sex. Sex by surprise seems rather accurate, unless it can be shown that Assange is carrying some disease that he is maliciously spreading. Almost the entirety of those statements consists of the women explicitly expressing that they are remorseful of their own actions (they let things go to far, they never did that before!). Naturally they demand that their socialist government punish someone else to protect them from themselves.
Read the news stories more carefully -- not the analysis ones, just the plain news. Giffords was shot by a reportedly deranged man with no ties to any discernible political philosophy.
After getting kicked out of community college, he sent them a letter explaining how the existence of community colleges is unconstitutional. He also complained about how the community college was violating his 2nd amendment rights to distrupt classes. I think it's pretty clear which band of crazies he belongs with.
Sure if Sarah Palin and the Tea Party didn't exist, he would have found some other way to go crazy, and would probably have killed a bunch of other people. But it's silly to deny that right wing hate had an effect on his choice of targets.
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Sorry, that should have been 1st amendment. Obviously no one was violating his 2nd amendment rights.
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The United States is very willing to "arrange" for people to end up in their jurisdiction when necessary.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
if he dies...
US and other governments will face vengeance and head-rolling on a massive scale for acting like assholes, instead of apathy previously.
Believe me, something is brewing, just need a strong enough spark now...
Now, Assange's attorneys have correctly argued against his extradition to Sweden, on a number of grounds, one of the most correct and crucial being that a local city (Goteborg, or Gothenburg in English) prosecutor (Marianne Ny) cannot petition for an Interpol arrest warrant -- nor extradition order -- it must originate at the highest government level.
Now you ask, but why would the Swedes want to extradite Assange of Wikileaks to Gothenburg? Because that's where Jeppesen Systems AB, the company affiliated with Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan, better known as Boeing's "Extreme Rendition Airlines" is located.
Beginning to get the Big Picture, now? Never have so many resources been focused to obtain one individual in the past few decades. And yes, I strongly suspect they've spent far more on tracking and ops in shutting down by Wikileaks (tasked at least three gov't supercomputers to DDoS those Wikileaking sites) and their Wikileaks Task Force at the CIA (WTF). Now why didn't they put as much effort into that fellow, what's his name?
Oh yeah....Osama bin Laden?
I doubt even Bush/Cheney, with all their constitutional overstepping, would have executed a Julian Assange. That entire line of thinking was started by a few very right-wing pundits who are trying to score political points. Not even actual terrorist sent to Guantanamo have been executed thus far.
Additionally, even though Obama is getting stymied on closing Guantanamo, AFAIK prisoners are no longer being sent there. On a positive note, the NY Times reports that Obama is getting high marks from constitutional law groups for not using signing statements to override Congress's authority even though he disagrees with the Guantanamo measures present in the recently passed Defense Authorization bill. It would seem our system of checks and balances has been restored.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/us/politics/08gitmo.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
No, the US isn't a sovereign nation, assuming it ever was, and that's a mighty big assumption.
Now, all that US aid to foreign countries, from USAID, OPIC and elsewhere, was simply to build factories, production facilities, infrastructure, etc., to benefit all those American-based multinationals when offshored all those American jobs there.
Now, those pension funds, especially the union pension funds, managed by private equity firms and invested in them, are then used to destroy said unions while profiting from those pension funds and destroying them as well.
Now, all those leveraged buyouts by those private equity firms (as in private banksters) are used to destroy the tax base, and cause unemployment by destroying companies and the jobs which go along with them, while the PE guys enrich themselves.
Now, the banksters and oil cartel have dismantled the American economy over the past 35 years or so, and cannibalizing it to enrich themselves, hence all those debt-financed billionaires we have among us today, along with the resulting dramatic increase in poverty. If you love anti-meritocratic societes, and oligarchic kleptocracies, then you must truly worship America, dood?
Sorry, but America has some truly and righteously baaaad karma.
From TFA:
They also claim that the extradition attempt is politically motivated. Any trial would be prejudiced, they say, because of Assange's political opinions - and, due a quirk of Swedish law - his gender.
Really? Assange is not going to get a fair trial because of the rampant pro-American sentiment in Sweden? Perhaps they should ask the trial be moved to a nation where women do not exist, to make sure there is no bias.
Full speed ahead on the crazy train.
I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
"They can shut me up! But who will take my place?" I think there is sufficient momentum to continue subverting the corrupt corporate governments of the world (US shamefully included) with or without any one person. It would be a shame though, and I can see people under 30 actually getting guns and fighting back if the government does something to Assange. He is very clearly the good guy in this fight to everyone I've spoken to under 40. Even most older folks are at the least divided.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Perhaps you might also consider that the reason might not be what you think it is rather than assuming its cause. The US is a convenient scape goat because it's own people are so critical of it's government but there are plenty of nations that like to feed a mythology that diverts attention from their own bad behavior. The US is far far away from being the worst offender in international politics. After all the Russians dumped polonium in a dissidents dinner in a foreign country and the Mossad strangled a guy in his own hotel room, even with the illegal renditions and using predator drones in extra judicial killings I personally don't consider that in the same league.
More to the point, Assange isn't by any definition an 'enemy combatant'.
That hasn't stopped the US from kidknapping people and illegaly incarcerating them in Guantanamo Bay so far..
I'm going to take exception with #4 in your post, "Obama is trying to close Gitmo in any event". There's an easy way to do that. If someone there has committed a crime, charge them, try them, and sentence them to any prison we've got. If that cannot be proven, let them go. Voila, one closed Guantanamo.
I think there's a name for this idea, actually. "Habeas" something? Something like that? The idea that pretrial imprisonment is limited only to the amount of time necessary to get to the trial, and that if cause to try the defendant cannot be established, you can't just indefinitely detain them anyway?
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
The fact that this argument cannot be dismissed as ridiculous, hyperbolic poppycock is testament to how far the United States has fallen in the world's estimation.
The mention of Guantanamo should be a good hint why we don't think it's ridiculous, hyperbolic, or poppycock.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
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Simple fact: Giffords was targeted by a political opponent using assassination metaphors.
Can you at least acknowledge that fact and agree that it's entirely inappropriate and contributes to an unhealthy political atmosphere?
Sadly, wishing doesn't make it so.
This isn't a controversial case nor one that is difficult. There are a zillion witnesses. The suspect in this case is going to be doing life. What purpose would be served by beating him up?
The Sheriff is a vocal and very liberal Democrat, so I think it is a crime there.
My very liberal sister lives in Arizona as well. Its not that conservative of a state.
It is just as much "bullshit" as the claim of "sex by surprise".
This is not true. It is a fact that he was accused of what I described. It is also a fact that he was not accused of "sex by surprise", as no such crime exists. Thus in relation to "the accusations against him," one statement is bullshit and the other is not. Whether the allegations hold up doesn't change what he was accused of.
It is true. If you are going to be pedantic, none of what you quoted is a crime either. It is instead a list of things a news organization claims a person said. I don't find a summary of a quote (in some cases, taken from another report) to be particularly reliable in accuracy. Provided I am remembering correctly, the current list of charges is one count of rape and two counts of sexual molestation, all without details of what act solicited which charge at the moment, and this has only occurred after one Swedish prosecutor dropped the case, one of the alleged victims dropped their charges, and Assange was given permission to leave the country. Hopefully most people can understand my credulity and reluctance to believe anything I read in regards to this at the moment.
Remember, you can't look dignified when your having fun! Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive
... including numerous Fox News "analysts" declaring that he's guilty of every crime in the book and should be executed, I have to wonder: where will the USA find an impartial jury for the trial? Or are trials and juries niceties that are not being considered here?
Yes and after being caught beating some kid to a bloody pulp for no reason can I claim I'm still a good person because I'm far far away from being the worst offender in the country what with some guy who fed bleech to his victims before raping them to death.
Being able to point to groups that are worse doesn't make your own any better.
The US is supposed to be a civilized western nation,
When it tortures people: That there exist countries which torture people more does not make it any better.
When it interns people without trial: the fact there exist countries which intern people more and for longer doesn't make it ok .
When it abducts innocent people from around the world for the aforementioned internment and torture it doesn't make it ok just because some other nations have done the same in the past.
Like it or not the US has got a reputation for torturing people not because of some smoke and mirrors show but simply because it's been torturing people.
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That entire line of thinking was started by a few very right-wing pundits who are trying to score political points.
And put in practice by the Bush Administration.
Additionally, even though Obama is getting stymied on closing Guantanamo, AFAIK prisoners are no longer being sent there.
Now they're going to gulag #2: Bagram Prison. Same difference.
On a positive note, the NY Times reports that Obama is getting high marks from constitutional law groups for not using signing statements to override Congress's authority even though he disagrees with the Guantanamo measures present in the recently passed Defense Authorization bill. It would seem our system of checks and balances has been restored.
How is signing off on extra-judicial assassinations of American citizens restoring checks and balances?
>Besides, when dictatorial, murdering thugs like Hugo Chavez are the primary people taking your side, that ought to be a not-so-subtle hint that you're not quite on the right side.
They won't be singing Assange's praises when he leaks something about them ....
I'm sorry, did you take the time to read my post? I quote myself:
Giffords was also the target of tasteless rhetoric a few months before she was shot.
Perhaps that wasn't stated strongly enough for you, and that you automatically assume that since I don't buy into the hysteria that I somehow approve of "assassination metaphors"? So here I'll try again:
I think that Sarah Palin represents the worst of conservative America, along with those who use make similar comments. I dislike most things about her, not the least of which is her rhetoric about Assange and the talk about "targeting" political opponents.
That being said, I think it is also totally irresponsible to automatically jump to the conclusion that this Gifford's attacker was politically motivated in any reasonable sense and furthermore that he was incited to violence by Palin et. al. and lets al try to shame the right into submission. Particularly when initial evidence refutes the point of view that the attack had any such motivations. Making assumptions and pseudo-causal arguments like that is the stuff that conspiracy theories and political diatribes are made of. This line of reasoning was essentially tipped off by a sheriff in Arizona talking about all of the political "vitriol" surrounding the last election cycle.
It is my position that politics in America will not improve until BOTH sides stop being hysterical about every little thing that politicians say, inflammatory or not. Ad hominem attacks are the status quo in politics, and only serve to distort the true facts. How many enlightening or useful discussions have you had where either party was just looking to "one-up" the other person? Here's a hint, if you're focusing on the particular wording someone uses as opposed to understanding their meaning, you're doing it wrong. I've had many very insightful conversations with liberals (I identify myself as a moderate conservative) that have changed my views on certain issues. For example, by looking at the facts and overlooking the rhetoric, I've come to the opinion that Bill Clinton, in spite of his many personal failings, was in many very important ways more conservative and more in line with my views than George Bush Jr.
My original post was simply an expression of my disdain for hysteria in politics which these lawyers are continuing.
Assange has involved himself in the war on terror as an enemy of the USA on the battlefield of information.
Whether the latest publications by Wikileaks ultimately ends up killing US soldiers or other citizens, the Wikileaks site contains information on some of our defensive weapons, like radio jammers. I've seen the tech manual for one of these jammers on the site. I worked in Iraq as a civilian sci/tech advisor in the counter-IED program, and one of our strategies was to jam the radio frequencies used to set off IED's, or roadside bombs. But, with the manuals for these jammers revealed, the bad guys can just read 'em and adjust their radio triggers to operate on frequencies other than the ones these jammers are capable of jamming. Just wonderful, eh? Next time you have someone you care about come back from Iraq or Afganistan with no legs, or dead, you have to ask yourself whether the bad guys were able to set off their IED, and harm your loved one, because of this Assange character. He is an enemy of the USA, no question, and deserves at the very least life in prison.
...that if he is sent to the USA he will likely be dipped in peanut butter, and dropped in a pen full of grizzly bears
The Peanut butter I can relate to, but does he have to be in an episode of the Palins show? That's just cruel and unusual punishment!
~men are from earth. women are from earth. deal with it.~
Funny that you mention the mossad action in Dubya. Is it that different to drone attacks in Pakistan? Or to the CIA kidnapping people in western countries?
But unlike the Russians, the US claims to be a country that wants freedom and justice. So when they act contrary to what they want everyone else in the world to do, it is newsworthy and worthy of criticism.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Being able to point to groups that are worse doesn't make your own any better.
That's fine, but it fails to address the question posed earlier: even if the US is "almost as bad" as various other countries in these departments, why does the US end up getting picked as the scapegoat for all the world's problems?
Let's not forget that Bush passed a macho law authorising the 'rescue' of US war criminals from the ICC, if any were ever charged. If the terror-military complex is prepared to do that then they certainly wouldn't balk at having Assanges kidnapped and taken to the Guantanamo concentration camp for torture.
> Nobody knows whether or not he listened to any particular radio shows, was a fan of Palin or even saw the map.
It's not unreasonable given that Rep. Giffords herself called Palin out on that very advertisement and reported harassment due to it.
Maybe this guy wasn't, but when there are so many crazy people who are talking about skipping right over the soap, ballot & jury boxes, well....
For the record, I consider myself neither Democrat nor Republican. Although I have voted for both, I generally try to vote for the least crazy individuals.
That's getting fairly difficult these days. At some point, I'm going to have to resort to writing in my own name or something.
Please stop assigning thoughts to this guy before qualified people actually find out.
I don't trust the "qualified people" ie the government to tell me the truth.
That's kinda the point. The US has a history of dirty dealings that's not all that far removed from those of Russia and Israel, but they like to see themselves as defenders of freedom and democracy. It's this hypocrisy in particular that's resulting in so much criticism and distrust. The US does not behave like a civilized nation, yet they like to pretend that they are.
Dubai not Dubya. Sorry for my imperfect English.
You don't think extraditing Assange "would open up the government to domestic criticism"? There would be riots and the ruling party would never, ever be elected again.
Tell me you're not that naive! Beyond the realms of possiblity for you that a US agency strongly suggested to the Kuwaiti Govt (who probably feel they owe the US a few favours) that they pick this kid up and interrogate him?e
Indulging in the "Tu Quoque" logical fallacy just distracts attention away from the fact that the U.S. Government is seriously out of the control of its populace, and being the dominant power in the world it is by far the most dangerous threat to the free world that exists. And by free world, I mean an actual free world, not the meaningless slogan that the U.S. Military Industrial Complex/Government chants while waving it's flag around.
America was supposed to be the example for free nations to follow. But instead, apathy, silly bipartisan tribal bullshit and government corruption fueled by corporate greed have degenerated it into a bloated repressive empire, which is on the verge of collapsing under it's own weight. The citizens of the United States can either reform their government, which is in no way serving their interests any more, or just throw away the best political idea of the last 235 years, and leave us all to the mercy of the various totalitarian lunatics that make up the rest of the world powerbase.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
I wonder when all the documents on Guantanamo Bay prisoners will be leaked. Apparently they are already in the possession of wikileaks admins. Perhaps waiting in case Assange actually gets placed there?
Has the US filed criminal charges against Assange? I wasn't aware that the US was attempting to get a hold of him at all.. His lawyer claimed a US indictment was "imminent" back in early December, and so far there have been crickets from the US Government.
He's just trying to avoid having to answer for his crimes in Sweden.
I'm not comfortable with that, but can't think of a better nation.
One might start thinking about non-nations then. Like international cooperatives or unions or such.
Japan is actually a very respectable part of the world community today, despite the kind of atrocities they were committing during WWII.
Nuking innocent civilians?
(But see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes)
> why does the US end up getting picked as the scapegoat for all the world's problems?
Because the US has appointed itself World Policeman.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Because the US itself, the nation, doesn't stand for those things, but it has a government that's, frankly, out of control, and a populace unable to rein it back in. On top of which, it's not the worst country in the world, but it's also far from being the best. Many, many, countries do not do any of these things with the exception of the odd occasion a low level government agent does something genuinely not sanctioned by higher ups. Even countries that do some of these things, such as Britain, routinely draw back after seeing the backlash - internment, for example, has not been retried. The US government, by comparison, seems to be getting worse.
Add to that the power the US government wields, and you have an unholy combination that's widely resented even by people who love the nation of the United States itself.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Hey, they only do that in Alaska. We in the lower 48 can't spare the Grizzly Bears. We need them to entertain our children by riding on unicycles and juggling.
You just illustrated his point perfectly. rhavin was trying to point out how other groups use the US, and the things they do, to distract from the bad things these other groups do. Stop being such a hypocrite. Just because the US is supposed to be civilized and still does horrible things, does not make it acceptable for other countries to do.
It would be nice if those that point to the crosshairs map also mention the DLC put out a similar one in 2004, only it had bullseyes instead of crosshairs (honestly, if one more person calls it gunsights I may jump out of a window).
It's likely this guy was pushed over the edge by something he heard/watched, but at this point it's all speculation, and I'm very irritated by the media talking about it as if it were fact.
I tend to think the way you do... I've voted for three different parties and independents in the past. I'm fairly libertarian though, so I usually start with those candidates. It's as if all of the parties try to put up their worst possible candidate just to see what happens.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Who said anything about government employees? I mean people who actually hear words out of his mouth, or see his writing. So far that is exactly zero people.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Because, getting a hellfire missile in the face is SO MUCH BETTER than getting strangled in a hotel room. Shame about everyone else in the vicinity, but hey, shit happens.
Try understanding what the fuck I'm referring to before you chime in with your "insight". Go watch the "Collateral Murder" video as released by wikileaks, and then go watch the full, unedited version of that same event.
Has the government distorted and twisted facts? Absolutely they have - problem is, the person who is claiming to tell us "the truth" is twisting and distorting the facts just as much as the people he's condemning.
If his goal was really transparency, he'd stop editorializing, and let the facts speak for themselves.
Yeah, but "consent" isn't one of those things you can do "take-backs" on.
From what I've heard of the women's testimony and everything, it seems like they're just having second thoughts. That should never be something illegal, just regretting a bad decision.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
And put in practice by the Bush Administration.
By "line of thinking," I was referring to the statement that the United States should execute Julian Assange.
Now they're going to gulag #2: Bagram Prison. Same difference.
Bagram was handed over to the Afghans in Jan 2010: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6081IN20100109
Detainees are now being held in the Parwan facility which is being described as much more humane, where the prisoners are assigned counsel and can challenge their incarceration: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2008892,00.html
How is signing off on extra-judicial assassinations of American citizens restoring checks and balances?
I am not a constitutional lawyer, so I can't answer whether the president has that authority. Seems to me though that if the president doesn't have the authority to order the death of anybody who is a U.S. citizen, even in combat situations, then a lot of illegal shit happened during the civil war.
I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
Assange should obviously be executed for treason since it was his responsibility to protect US territory from invasion and not only did he fail to do so, he prevented the US government, State governments, County governments and even private border ranchers from doing so!
That not only is gross malfeasance, it is the most heinous kind of treason imaginable!
Crucify Him!
Seastead this.
Agreed!! And that's why the US is getting its ass kicked big-time!!
Don't take this the wrong way, but most of us in Europe think the US is comparable to Camelot, it's a silly place.
In a lot of ways you guys are the exact opposite of us.
Bagram was handed over to the Afghans in Jan 2010
Maybe if you're one of those Obama fans that counts announced intentions as accomplished accomplishments. That was signing an agreement to hand over control of the prison, not an actual handover of control. Much like Obama's promise to close Gitmo and starting to withdraw from Afghanistan this year, don't hold your breath on this one.
Detainees are now being held in the Parwan facility which is being described as much more humane, where the prisoners are assigned counsel and can challenge their incarceration
Yes, "described". When an American citizen is being subjected to psycological torture on American soil, I don't know why anyone would put much stock in how a foreign gulag is "described".
I am not a constitutional lawyer
Who needs a law degree when basic remedial reading is more than sufficient? The 5th Amendment is perfectly clear:
I'm not one for conspiracy theories. But lots of things - like the timing of the accusations & the complicity of financial institutions in blocking payment to the site - seem to be fitting into place a little too smoothly for comfort.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."