First Looks At Windows 8.1, Complete With 'Start' Button

Ars Technica has taken a look at Microsoft's newly released preview of Windows 8.1. As widely rumored, the point release features a clamored-for concession to Windows users who rankled at the loss of Windows' Start button in the taskbar. In addition to various tweaks to 8's search capabilities and icon presentation, says the article, "Some of Windows 8's obvious limitations are being lifted. In 8.1, Metro apps can be run on multiple monitors simultaneously. On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side." Similar reports on these changes at Wired, Engadget, and SlashCloud.

Comments

Not good enough

[JDG1980]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

Re:Not good enough

[mrsquid0]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

Re:Not good enough

[Shaman]

What this guy said. Or gal. Or hermaphrodite. Or transsexual. But what they said, anyways.

Re:Not good enough

[Neil Hodges]

There's also the 'singular they'.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

"They" is actually accepted as singular in modern English (not just slang). In addition to that, most people object to being called "it".

Re:Not good enough

[Striikerr]

Agreed. My company refuses to switch to Window 8. I suspect that Windows 7 will be the new Windows XP for years to come (if you need to run Windows in your environment, it will be Windows 7). The issue with Microsoft is that they went about this wrong. They forced significant changes upon users where changes were not really warranted. This is particularly a big issue in companies where users are accustomed to working on the same style of desktop etc. These are people that complain when an icon is moved on their desktop or get confused with minor changes to applications so a full UI overhaul in the corporate space was truly a bad idea and one which will cost Microsoft dearly in the years ahead. Giving options to use their new interface components is a better approach (one which Apple has taken with their desktop OS via the Launchpad which brings up pages of icons representing applications to launch, identical to their IOS devices). I understand that Microsoft sees the writing on the wall and that mobile devices and operating systems is the future source of revenue, but dumping these changes so suddenly upon the masses was a bad decision.

I've never been a fan of seeing the significant UI changes made each time a new version of Windows is released. I have worked on Windows servers for years and really hated the changes introduced with Server 2008. I still need to figure out where certain functions are when I have to work on a Windows server (I spend much more time on Linux servers now). I've heard similar complaints from friends who work in IT as well.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen screenshots but I'm still worried.

Is it a regular Start button that is pinned to the screen, or is it a secret Start button that appears only after you implement the mouse gesture of drawing a triple umlaut then dragging rapidly to the left (but not too rapidly, otherewise you'll activate the screen saver)?

Re:Not good enough

[robably]

itself

Re:Not good enough

[QuietLagoon]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it:

Yup. We also want to know that Microsoft won't continue to act stupidly and once again remove the Start Menu in the future.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, is power off button still somewhere in Metro sidebar and its settings (well, since they didn't provide real start menu...)? How can that be considered ergonomic?

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't object to being referred to as 'it', or it gets the hose again.

Re:Not good enough

[_xeno_]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

Given how well hidden the "power" menu and logout button are in Windows 8, that might actually not be a bad idea...

(To restart your computer, open the Charms Bar, go to Settings, and then hit the Power menu to reveal the Restart and Shutdown options. To log out, something you used to do from the same menu you shutdown and rebooted from, instead you open the Start menu, and click on your user name to open a menu you'd never guess existed.)

Re:Not good enough

[JaredOfEuropa]

There's a guy selling a tool that gives you the start button, actual start menu + boot to desktop back in Windows 8. It's something like $3 for 3 computers. I guess this guy stands to make a hell of a lot more (well deserved) money... unless Windows 8.1 breaks his app.

Re:Not good enough

[Ricardo]

BEST COMMENT EVER.

REALLY.

Re:Not good enough

[ultrasawblade]

I'm testing Windows 8 for a company that is likely going to be wise enough to skip it. But I keep using it just to maintain familiarity with it.

Anyway, to sleep or shutdown, I've found it's easiest to just hit ctrl-alt-del and use the power button from there. It's what I've been telling people to do as well.

Of course, my old Windows key + R, "shutdown -r -t 0" habit is well entrenched and used a lot too, from rebooting machines over RDP.

Re:Not good enough

[Archangel Michael]

You're use of command line is strangely reminiscent of Unix. The very thing Windows was supposed to be better at, because one didn't have to know the command line to do common tasks. I guess nobody shuts computers down any more.

Re:Not good enough

[xeio87]

There's also clicking the desktop (if you're not already focused to it) and Alt+F4 opens a power menu. That shortcut works from Windows versions prior to 8 as well.

Re:Not good enough

[Skreems]

Word from inside the company is that Sinofsky made the devs "p4 obliterate" the Start menu code, meaning not only did they delete it but they wiped the entire history of the code from their source control. If true, it would mean that they couldn't just "bring back" the start menu, they'd have to entirely rewrite it.

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

What does Windows 8 do for any user without a touchscreen that Windows 7 won't? As a matter of fact, much of what normal users do can also be done on XP. The way people interact with mobile touchscreen devices is fundamentally different than on an ordinary desktop or laptop computer. Apparently, Apple has understood this, but Microsoft has not yet figured it out. A Swiss Army knife might be fine for camping, but has no place in any kitchen especially one of a restaurant.

Re:Not good enough

[NJRoadfan]

But the start screen has more color options... and animated backgrounds. Gee whiz, and to think after reading that feature list they are actually going to charge for this update!

Re:Not good enough

[MightyYar]

That's actually a minor point for me. I don't really care if the Start Menu takes up 1/4, 1/2, or the whole screen. What I hated most, they addressed:
1. The way I launch apps and control panels is to hit the Windows key and then start typing the name. Win 8 broke this (except for apps). Now it works again!
2. You had to hunt all over the place to find settings. Some were in the "charms", some in the control panels. Now they have (almost?) everything in the charms.

I did not see whether they address the Metro apps just quitting by themselves when in the background, so I guess I will still just avoid running Metro apps. I would also like to shrink the size of the individual app buttons. Classic Shell is of course still an option. I still don't like all of the magic corners and gestures, but I've mostly learned those. Besides, if Windows was easy they'd be Apple - I'm very accustomed to struggling with MS products at first, it's a great custom that harkens back to the wonderful days of .ini files.

Re:Not good enough

[RoknrolZombie]

Of course not...have you not heard the cries of, "But it takes too long!" or "I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place" when you suggest that they reboot to resolve a common hiccup?

Re:Not good enough

[IANAAC]

... I guess nobody shuts computers down any more.

Probably right. Nobody I know shuts their systems down. I certainly don't shut down my Linux systems unless I have to (although I restart Gnome - or outright kill it - regularly). It's a low power laptop, though, using less than 60W. I suppose if it were a huge desktop machine eating up 500W of power, I'd shut it down when not in use.

Re:Not good enough

[Alarash]

Alternatively you can just press the "Power" button of your PC, or use CTRL + ALT + DEL to logout.

Re:Not good enough

[tepples]

I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place

Then bug the developers of the applications that you use in your project to include session save and restore.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Every device that exists has a power off button. You're supposed to use that.

Re:Not good enough

[Endo13]

This post could be modded to +100 and it still wouldn't be enough.

Re:Not good enough

[GregC63]

ALT-F4 from the desktop gives you the power off/log off menu as well.

Re:Not good enough

[cyberchondriac]

Of course not...have you not heard the cries of, "But it takes too long!" or "I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place" when you suggest that they reboot to resolve a common hiccup?

It doesn't matter because you just broke the Internet; you spelled "lose" correctly.

Re:Not good enough

[CimmerianX]

If you hated the changes in 2008 Server..... just wait until you try 2013. Ohhhh just wait.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.classicshell.net/

And this is free...

Actually free.. And works.

Re:Not good enough

[CimmerianX]

Or just use the Free Tool, Ninite. Ninite will install the classic shell back to win8 and win server 2013 for free and it works just fine.

Re:Not good enough

[gstoddart]

Well, quite frankly, it does take too long ... and the "Windows Patch" (reboot and hope for the best) has always been a lousy response. It doesn't solve anything, just makes the problem go away for a while (if at all).

Some of us expect our machines to stay up longer, and depending on what you run, starting everything from scratch would take forever.

My 'normal' set of stuff on my personal desktop is 3 different web browsers (with multiple tabs in each), VMWare with two VMs, iTunes, the software to sync my phone, and sometimes the software to sync my Tom Tom. That's what's open every single day, all day long. My work computer is similarly running with a whole bunch of stuff that I use several times/hour and if I had to open and close them every time I used them, it would waste half my friggin' day.

For those of us who are used to machines with uptimes in the hundreds of days range, the suggestion to reboot is the sign of a lazy and incompetent admin, or shitty software.

Re:Not good enough

[JDG1980]

Word from inside the company is that Sinofsky made the devs "p4 obliterate" the Start menu code, meaning not only did they delete it but they wiped the entire history of the code from their source control. If true, it would mean that they couldn't just "bring back" the start menu, they'd have to entirely rewrite it.

I hadn't heard about that particular bit of stupidity; what possible business justification could there be for it? He deserved to be fired for that alone. Still, it's really not a big deal. If multiple third parties can implement reasonably good facsimiles of the Start menu in as short a time frame as they did, Microsoft shouldn't have any trouble. Heck, they could buy the rights to Start8 out of pocket change and merge it with their source tree.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally Agree.... Why make our lives harder? Give us the functionality that we actually used....

Re:Not good enough

[AmazingRuss]

I used the undocumented eject button, and haven't been in since.

Re:Not good enough

[Jane Q. Public]

"I understand that Microsoft sees the writing on the wall and that mobile devices and operating systems is the future source of revenue, but dumping these changes so suddenly upon the masses was a bad decision."

Suddenly has nothing to do with it. People didn't want these changes at all.

While it may be true that mobile will be the future of most computing, Microsoft and other OS vendors (I'm looking at you Apple, and Ubuntu while we're at it) NEED to understand these things:

(1) The desktop isn't going away anytime soon. Especially for power-users like developers, who -- like it or not -- are the OS makers' bread and butter. The OS is only as good as what it will run... and how well. Recent "dumbing down" of the desktop is just plain dumb.

(2) The desktop is not just a larger mobile device. There are significant and important differences, and nobody wants a desktop to have the significant and severe limitations of today's mobile devices.

(3) Change for the sake of change is very seldom a good idea. Things were the way they were through years of effort and trial-and-error, to get things to work properly. Simply tossing all that aside for something new is A Bad Idea, unless it's a significant improvement. The changes in Windows 8 were NOT "significant improvements". If they were, people would like it.

Re:Not good enough

[Junta]

I did not see whether they address the Metro apps just quitting by themselves when in the background

I'd be exceptionally surprised if they change this. That was an intentional design goal with a lot of effort in it. It's infuriating as it is bringing over one of the worst aspects of android and ios, piss poor multitasking. The thinking being that 'task management' is scary and if an app developer goes through some hoops, they should be able to restore state if killed. In practice, developers are too lazy to properly handle that use case and a task switch away and back might get you back where you were or it might start the application over without any persisted state depending on the effort of the developer and hard to predict decisions by the platform whether to suspend it or kill it.

The major goal, of course, to automatically guess what the user would want and 'save' them from having to close apps when memory is in short supply. The 'SIGSTOP' in background is annoying enough, but is marginally more defensible in the name of saving power.

Re:Not good enough

[wonkey_monkey]

Free is even better.

Re:Not good enough

[TheLink]

With all those billions of dollars and thousands of smart people why couldn't Microsoft have actually helped us with something like this:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/29001/

Or this:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/156693

Instead they come up with Metro...

Re:Not good enough

[Chas]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

Agreed.

The Start menu is a compact, concise, orderly method of navigating apps.
The Start screen is a nearly context-free mess of pointless blocks that still HIDES FUNCTIONALITY from the user.

Yep. Microsoft, still clue-free.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sounds like a plan, Chucky. I'll just crawl under my desk every time I want to turn my PC off.

Were you Microsoft apologists dropped as children, or just well-paid now?

Re:Not good enough

[whoever57]

(To restart your computer, open the Charms Bar, go to Settings, and then hit the Power menu to reveal the Restart and Shutdown options.

Can't you just open a cmd shell and type "shutdown" or "shutdown /r"?

Re:Not good enough

[sirber]

In every source control system you can go back in time and extract the deleted code.

Re:Not good enough

[the_humeister]

I installed classic shell. Now I have all the benefits of Windows 8 (eg, faster internals, hyper-v, multi language display/input) and the start menu back. power off, restart, logout are all there.

Re:Not good enough

[Antipater]

"You" is plural as well. Did you know that? The actual second person singular in English is "thou". The singular "you" gained acceptance when people realized the double benefit of having a simpler language and of not being pretentious dickbags.

Re:Not good enough

[westlake]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button.

Not here.

The Start menu quickly becomes cramped, unreadable and unmanageable. I have left it behind and I am not going back.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy JDG a beer! Windows 8 is three steps backwards and an all together dreadful experience.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

spoken like a true enduser

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

As a matter of fact, much of what normal users do can also be done on XP

The one single reason I switched from XP to win7 was that I built a new computer with 16GB of RAM and needed a 64bit OS.

I have a hard time fathoming Microsoft putting out a new OS that will compel me to switch again.

Re:Not good enough

[Entropius]

That means I have to figure out how to interact with the Win8 app store.

OS-integrated install functions that are more complicated than "sudo apt-get install foobar" make me sad, because we have evidence that it really can be that simple.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally seconded. I think that the desktop might not be the target market for the new UI at all.

The new Windows 8 "Metro" environment is a lot easier to use when the computer's displaying on a TV and one is reclining across a moderately sized room, and the Piet Mondrian-style party UI didn't interfere with leisure activities. I really liked it, in that context.

Re:Not good enough

[log0n]

I've gotten in the habit of just Cr-Al-De then clicking the lower right power icon. Not a big fan of gestures.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

No he didn't; he actually meant that the project's place would be loosed, as in, untightened. No internets for you!

Re:Not good enough

[MightyYar]

I just wish it were a config option when running on a desktop with 8GB of RAM! The built-in PDF reader is useless for many purposes if you can't dependably alt-tab to it for reference. The built in email app is similarly annoying, but mostly because it loses it's state when reloaded, so I'm back to keeping a Firefox window with Gmail running. Explorer is really annoying in metro-land when it quits, so you need to make sure links open in the desktop version. My current strategy is to just pretend Metro does not exist. Occasionally it reminds me, and I hate it :)

Re:Not good enough

[candeoastrum]

Word from inside the company is that Sinofsky made the devs "p4 obliterate" the Start menu code, meaning not only did they delete it but they wiped the entire history of the code from their source control. If true, it would mean that they couldn't just "bring back" the start menu, they'd have to entirely rewrite it.

They wouldn't have to rewrite it. That's silly. They would just go back to a version of the code when it existed. Microsoft doesn't have one flat file with their code in it. There are literally hundreds of versions that exist with different source branches etc.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not quite sure why you would be turning your PC off anyways, having it on and automatically go to standby is how it's suppose to roll. Also it's not like you can't go to the start and type in power and have the option pop up.

Re:Not good enough

[gstoddart]

spoken like a true enduser

Spoken like a true moron -- I'm the freakin' admin, and I spent 15+ years as a developer. If I have it open, it's because I use it constantly.

This is the stuff I use to do my job, and rebooting because someone has no idea of what's going on but thinks a reboot will make the problem go away has always been a stupid idea.

Usually it's some idiot doing tech support who knows far less than I do who is suggesting it. Just because some half-wit at the service desk has that as the first item on his checklist doesn't make it the right choice.

Re:Not good enough

[Culture20]

Shutting down via command line when using RDP is the fastest method; otherwise you get into fights with the UI (and some versions of Windows don't give you a GUI option to reboot if logged in via RDP):
Are you sure you want to reboot?
Yes.
There are other people logged in.
I said Yes! That "other person" is my non-admin account!
Please state the reason for the reboot:
Operating System reconfiguration.
Application Foo not responding to close request. Shutdown canceled.
#$^*@!

shutdown /r /t 0 /f just reboots immediately, no stupid questions asked

Re:Not good enough

[omnichad]

Try Win+I. That brings up a power option on the right.

Re:Not good enough

[tepples]

What does Windows 8 do for any user without a touchscreen that Windows 7 won't?

For one thing, Windows 8 ships on every new name-brand PC not made by Apple, including laptops, all-in-ones, and name-brand towers. For another, Microsoft allows the use of Windows 8 OEM version on home-built towers, unlike Windows 7 where it required hobbyist PC builders to buy the more expensive retail version.

Re:Not good enough

[orthancstone]

The Start menu quickly becomes cramped, unreadable and unmanageable. I have left it behind and I am not going back.

Absolutely true. Moving to 8 convinced me of how wrong I was doing it for years with regards to the start menu (apart from easy search, but looks like they are aware of that and will fix it).

Go use OS X for a while then go back to the pre-Windows 8 Start menus and you'll realize how asinine the design is for efficiency. Microsoft moved in the right direction with the Start screen.

Re:Not good enough

[CAIMLAS]

The issue with Microsoft is that they went about this wrong. They forced significant changes upon users where changes were not really warranted. This is particularly a big issue in companies where users are accustomed to working on the same style of desktop etc.

Precisely. Even still, there's resistance in some organizations to migrating to W7 from XP due to training costs and the cyclic troubleshooting that usually hits hard and fast after a migration (they know all the common issues with XP, as an organization; not so W7).

For corporate, there are no advantages to W7, seemingly. Even fewer for developers (who have to port their applications and deal with new crap for no apparent reason).

Here's what they should have done:

* Implement proper package management for Windows, with repositories, as they've been talking about for years (on and off), something that's highly desired by many IT professionals
* Improved atomic change control for packages/updates
* The ability to control the platform for support (we were more or less there with 7; 8 is a huge step back in this regard)

Re: Not good enough

[thetoadwarrior]

You're right, it's bad software. Use Linux instead. Expecting real uptime on windows is laughable. I can leave win 7 running with nothing open and come after holiday to find it in a worse state.

Re:Not good enough

[chmod a x mojo]

What I don't understand is why they didn't do something like KDE did. I.E. there is a setting for touch / small screen devices that changes the UI from full desktop mode to the mobile type UI.

That way the USER has the choice of what they want to run, either plain jane pretty close to how it always was ( once you set up activities to desktop icons ) or the mobile type UI, switched with a simple config option in the control panel...

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not quite sure why you would be turning your PC off anyways, having it on and automatically go to standby is how it's suppose to roll. Also it's not like you can't go to the start and type in power and have the option pop up.

I'm not quite sure who this actually works for. Laptops themselves for a very long time rarely resumed successfully without an accompyning BSOD... and the desktop...forget it...it has NEVER worked on any system I've owned. You try suspend and you'll never get it back...and that REALLY sucks cuz it takes half a day to resync the disk array. You can however just map pressing the power button to shutdown and hit that...

As far as you can always do this dizzing array of shit like type what you want instead of just clicking on a pretty shutdown icon...I'll let that speak for itself. MS is making the same mistakes with its "telemetry" other industries have learned and moved on from. The cost function can't simply be popularity or you fail to properly capture dependant variables and secondary effects. There are entire books dedicated to these topics.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

In this case, how is the Metro sidebar really any different than the Start menu? Especially from an ergonomic point of view.

Other than you can't add programs.

Re:Not good enough

[omnichad]

All it does is merge the file tree for two folders (All user and current user) and display it graphically. Rewriting it shouldn't be that hard. It doesn't even have to be exactly the same.

I would be happy if they'd just make each subfolder spawn its own start screen and tack on a little more backward compatibility for older programs on the start screen. It's the complete lack of organization on the start screen that bugs a lot of us. I never did like traversing the whole start menu tree anyway, but at least it wasn't a complete mess.

Most of the time, I just hit the Win key and type a few letters of the program's name. So for the most part, the start screen vs. the start menu made little difference for me.

Re:Not good enough

[Tarlus]

I've gotten used to "Windows Key + i" every time I want to do a shutdown.

In RDP, I use "Ctrl + Alt + End" to initiate a shutdown.

Hope somebody here finds these shortcuts useful.

Re:Not good enough

[Kielistic]

Yeah, because I never have to restart my Windows machine.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an obvious lie. Either you are lying, or you're gullible.

Re:Not good enough

[omnichad]

Animated backgrounds? Why not just add HTML backgrounds. Active Desktop all over again.

But they aren't charging for this update.

Re:Not good enough

[Culture20]

"They" is actually accepted as singular in modern English (not just slang).

But it shouldn't be, because people use it in confusing ways.

In addition to that, most people object to being called "it".

In English, "it" is used to denote gender neutrality or ambiguity, but mostly refers to non-human things. Babies are an exception, and are often referred to as "it" if their gender is not known.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I never want to interact with Metro on the desktop. If Microsoft had used their classic interface but included a Metro emulator, I just might have bought a Microsoft tablet. The idea of being able to run the same app on a tablet and the desktop has merit.

The difference is that when I run an emulator, I understand that it's not the ideal interface for what I'm doing, and I'm willing to put up with its shortcomings. But Microsoft doesn't want to admit that a tablet interface is not appropriate for a desktop. They tried to shove Metro down our throats, and we gagged. So now instead of a bunch of users who learn to use Metro on the desktop and then buy Metro tablets so they don't have to learn two different interfaces, Microsoft is left with a bunch of users who hate Metro on the desktop and are therefore unwilling to use it on a tablet, whether or not it makes a good tablet interface.

Now they've heard their users complain, but instead of admitting they were wrong, they take a patronizing tone and give us a Start button as a peace offering, never mind that all it does is reinforce their insistence on sticking with Metro.

Microsoft gambled away their strongest selling point: inertia. I've spent decades learning to use programs that only run on Windows, and I can't just throw all that away. Now they're not giving me a choice. Fine. If I'm going to have to learn a new way of doing things anyways, it's not going to be the Microsoft way. They lost their gamble, but are unwilling to cut their losses. Windows 8 is the beginning of the end for Microsoft. They're quickly becoming irrelevant.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless it solves most common Windows problems.

Which it does.

If you were an admin instead of a developer, you'd know that. But then your arrogance already showed through with the name calling.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows + Q searches for apps.
Windows + W searches for settings.
Windows + F searches for files.

Try it sometime.

Re:Not good enough

[0racle]

Just FYI - The Remote Management tools for Windows Server 2012 ONLY run on Windows 8.

It would seem MS thought of a way to get at least some people in enterprise environments to upgrade to Windows 8, PowerShell uptake among Windows admins has been disgustingly slow.

Re:Not good enough

[tlhIngan]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

There's a super-basic (no programs) start menu still in Windows 8 - if you right click in the lower left corner you'll get a context menu that gives you a good chunk of the stuff that's harder to find in the start screen - like easy access to the control panel and other places. It's the only way to retain your sanity on Windows 8 (I still don't know of a reliable way to get to the control panel via the Metro interface...).

Of course, my old Windows key + R, "shutdown -r -t 0" habit is well entrenched and used a lot too, from rebooting machines over RDP.

Ctrl-Alt-End takes you to the Ctrl-Alt-Del menu through RDP. You can shut down PCs and everything else through it nowadays. It's required if you want to change your password and such.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a legitimate complaint. I can be using 4 different applications and have multiple tabs open in each for a single project. Rebooting and then reopening everything because of some system bug isn't acceptable.

Re:Not good enough

[jones_supa]

There's a "Restart" option in the sidebar too.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

It actually works for people who don't use a junk OS.

I have 3 computing devices I use regularly: a laptop; a phone; a tablet. I can't recall the last time I actually powered any of them all the way off, or rebooted one. Even on airplanes I just put them to sleep or airplane mode. When I want to resume using one I click a button and it takes off right where I left it (except the laptop takes 3 or 4 seconds).

Re:Not good enough

[DaedylusSL]

I love Win8's Start screen. I took 5 minutes to organize it and get rid of the stupid Metro apps I don't use. I have a column of work-related things, a column of fun things, and a bunch of stuff I use occasionally. To open a program I press the Windows key, then mouse over a tiny amount to what I want. Way faster workflow than I ever had before. When I try to use my kids' Win7 machine, I now find the Start menu painful.

Re:Not good enough

[CaptSlaq]

spoken like a true enduser

Spoken like a true moron -- I'm the freakin' admin, and I spent 15+ years as a developer. If I have it open, it's because I use it constantly.

This is the stuff I use to do my job, and rebooting because someone has no idea of what's going on but thinks a reboot will make the problem go away has always been a stupid idea.

Usually it's some idiot doing tech support who knows far less than I do who is suggesting it. Just because some half-wit at the service desk has that as the first item on his checklist doesn't make it the right choice.

You are speaking as a developer, not someone who has come through the support ranks.

As someone who *has* up from support, your opinion is, quite frankly, ludicrous: Support often doesn't get the documentation to sort out what could be causing stupid problem [x], because "that doesn't happen in our test environment...", which often doesn't reflect the reality of a machine that someone actually *uses*.

Computers do stupid things, often caused by poor decisions from someone that uses them. Software does stupid things, often caused by poor decisions from someone that wrote it. Dumping on tier 1 support because they don't have sufficient tools or information to understand the entire scope of what they've been asked to support is not helping solve the overall problem of "all software has bugs" or "software companies don't do sufficient [x] for their support reps", where [x] is any combination of the following: documentation, training, testing, tool provisioning.

If all of the steps were done right for everything (support who knows what they're doing, with sufficient tools to support software that is properly tested and well documented), I'd agree: Rebooting is the hail mary of a tech that doesn't want to fix the problem. In my experience, very few, if any of those are true. This goes doubly for the desktop OS stuff I've had to support.

Re:Not good enough

[jader3rd]

What does Windows 8 do for any user without a touchscreen that Windows 7 won't?

Secure Boot. Seriously, if you're worried about someone physically compromising your systems and installing keyloggers, etc. having Secure Boot is a great feature that previous versions of Windows don't have.

Re:Not good enough

[vux984]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button.

You been modded up by people who support you, and that's fine.

But all I wanted was the start button instead of having to use a hotcorner. That was counter intuitive. Most of the time I already use the win key because, I already liked the start screen better as a place to search for infrequently used apps. Returning the old start menu would have been a real step backwards and I'm glad MS stuck to their guns on this one.

What do you think you need the start menu for, that a small pop-up non-resizable window makes sense for?

Frequently used applications? Desktop short cuts, pinned apps, pinned folders, and for power users custom start menu should have you more than covered.

The Windows 7 search box is the only thing I even slightly miss on Windows 8.

The search on the start screen is fine if I'm really going to be looking for something that I don't really know what I'm looking for exactly. Then a full screen interface makes a lot mroe sense than the a small non-resizable popup.

But for quickly searching for and launching things I do know the name of ... mstsc, cmd, gpedit, the old start menu search makes more sense.

And really what i want is an OSX style spotlight widget. And there are a number of decent 3rd party options -- still I think Windows should have something built in.

My only other real complaint about windows 8 is hot corners on the desktop, being non-optional. I dislike hot corners.

And to offset the complaints there are several things win8 does better. Its faster. Client hyper-V, the new task manager, etc.

Overall its an upgrade.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyMartian]

No shit! These "improvements" do little more than make what seemed like Windows 2 or Presentation Manager act like Windows 3. I want the old desktop interface back. I don't give a fuck about Metro, and from everything I can tell, no one else does either.

Re:Not good enough

[vux984]

Works in windows 7 as well.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

windows 8 : where's my fucking start menu? where's the fucking desktop? where the fuck is freecell? what the fuck are all these square buttons? how the fuck do i shut down?

windows 8.1 : cute microsoft, nice little "button" but where the fucking hell is the start menu? this start "screen" still sucks ass. and what the fuck is this skydrive crap? i just wanna use my computer, not be bombarded with what amounts to being adverts for your shitty online services.

[ . . . . ]

windows 8.99999 : what the fuck? still no start menu? WHAT THE HELL? no i do NOT want to sign into bing, or hotmail, or skydrive, or skype, or anything else, so shut the fuck up already. do you guys even have a brain? you guys have billions of dollars, surely someone can spare a quarter so you can buy a fucking clue. i sure wish apple didn't go out of business, i could use a mac about now.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the cause is the System killing symantec startup scan. This just about stops my P4 work machine on startup.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyMartian]

Yes, but at least in the enterprise, downgrade rights will be around for a while, so whether Windows 8 ships with a unit or not, it seems likely to me that most businesses will be pushing out Windows 7 anyways.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyYar]

Thanks! But now I don't need this. There are lots of great Windows + shortcut keys, but I don't use them enough to keep them memorized.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I just press the power button on my computer. It automatically shuts Windows off properly, as if I navigated to the Shutdown command.

Let's be honest, most people don't even use the user login account. Of all the desktops and laptops I've looked at (I'm the local tech fixer), not one has had a secondary user account that they use. The only ones with secondary accounts? The ones I made, or the ones I've recommended to make (to isolate troublesome applications they wanted to use).

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

No, pressing the hardware power button is the fastest method of turning off a Windows machine.

I don't get any shutdown warnings either, which is sometimes good and sometimes bad. lo

Re:Not good enough

[unixisc]

I quite agree w/ this. When Vista was out, I was waiting to get it since my hard disk was 160GB, and XP had a limit of 128GB, and I didn't want a D:\ partition. SP2 of XP did get around this, but I prefer such things to be a part of the base OS, and the updates to be just security & drivers, not new features altogether. Also, Vista & 7 were the first OSs w/ proper IPv6 support. There were compelling reasons to go from XP to 7, such as the 64-bit OS, but beyond that, there are no other reasons to go from 7 to anything new. At this point, Windows is stable, and Microsoft would be better off selling services based on Windows to paying customers.

Re:Not good enough

[Minwee]

Given how well hidden the "power" menu and logout button are in Windows 8, that might actually not be a bad idea...

That hasn't changed in years. It's still the big round one a little bit below the bottom edge of your monitor, right near the optical drive. Push it once to politely request a shutdown, and hold it for at least four seconds to add "and stay down".

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Huge desktop machines don't eat 500W of power unless it needs to eat 500W of power. Most components these days will go into power saving mode if you don't use it. CPU cores shut down or downclock, graphics cards throttle themselves, etc. Most computers will also enter standby or hibernation, requiring little to now power at all.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

GOD, I am getting so sick of the idiots that spout using keyboard shortcuts and the search bar, to make up for a bad GUI.

Re:Not good enough

[tftp]

My PC is set up to go to sleep after 1 hour of inactivity. If this happens just twice per day in a business setting, it results in 2 wasted hours per day per PC. If a PC draws 80W (a good number if a single HDD is used,) then you are burning needlessly through 160Wh of energy, only because you are too lazy to click on an icon and put the box into one of sleep modes before you go to lunch or home. This also adds wear to the fans that the computer has running.

Configuring the computer for a shorter timeout will result in other problems, such as walking away to talk to someone and, upon returning, finding your PC asleep. It's annoying.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never had issues with hibernation or standby in Windows. You obviously don't know how to use your computer or you've gone and fucked something up becuase you like to tinker but don't know what you're doing. FOSS-tards are the worst about the latter.

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Never happened to this Windows user, but linux hard locks on me all the time. Doesn't have device drivers for most of my hardware. Doesn't have a proper volume control, and the windowing system always manages to get itself in some fucked up state I have to power cycle the computer to get out of. And the fonts look like utter shit. Can't even read what linux draws on the screen most of the time. And you ignorant FOSS-tards are happy with this...

Re:Not good enough

[gsgriffin]

On my desktop, yes. On my Surface and my kids convertibles with touch displays, no. The Metro and the use of the tablets/laptop/computer makes a lot more sense. Before throwing out the baby with the bathwater, get yourself a Surface or convertible and spend some time using it for what it was really designed for....the bridge between tablet/phone and computer. As fewer and fewer people are buying desktops anymore, this operating system is the first attempt to marry tablet with laptop in functionality.

I hate it on my desktop (won't install it). I like it and it works well on my Surface.

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Well dumbass if u have to crawl under to power down you have to crawl to power up! Wow!

Re:Not good enough

[gigaherz]

Just press the POWER BUTTON that's in the side of your computer! Wait, no, that's configured to SUSPEND by default...

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought a $3000 dollar game / workhorse. After mucking around with laptops since late 1990's I'm tired of doing everything on laptops and want "my own corner" to work and play in. With Andoid phone I feel absolutely NO NEED to ever go touch, and the underpowered mini-laptops I bought are now just collecting dust. Useless junk.

Just tried out Linux Mint, and if Microsoft just took a peek at that, and had some brains and management-skills, they would understand everything they need is all there. Just clone it and make it backwards-compatible. Don't be asses: Xbox One is a joke and a farce, a kick in the skull of REAL enthusiasts. There's no soul, only psychopaths and victims left in Redmond it seems.

This makes me hopeful we may one day see the Year of Linux on the Desktop! *grins* ;-)
(However, that'd mean someone must take their users seriously and listen to them. Doesn't seem realistic with all the ignorant and arrogant decisions going on. *cough* Canonical *cough*)

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

Given how well hidden the "power" menu and logout button are in Windows 8, that might actually not be a bad idea...

(To restart your computer, open the Charms Bar, go to Settings, and then hit the Power menu to reveal the Restart and Shutdown options. To log out, something you used to do from the same menu you shutdown and rebooted from, instead you open the Start menu, and click on your user name to open a menu you'd never guess existed.)

you can also do alt+f4 while the desktop has focus and you'll get the same old dialog for logging off/shutting down that has existed since at least win2k.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, I paid MORE for Windows 7 rather than accept the default Windows 8 OEM-license. That was what I was gonna say initially, but it's ALL LINKED and good.
If that doesn't tell M$ something, well fuck'em!

Re:Not good enough

[AmiMoJo]

You are supposed to press the power button now. I guess they didn't do a very good job of getting that message across.

Re:Not good enough

[UnknowingFool]

Um nobody who uses a desktop shuts down their computer. Those of us who use laptops turn them off now and then. (Battery, flights, etc.)

Re:Not good enough

[rahvin112]

Windows 8 has some rather significant under the hood improvements. In particular the handling of SSD's is significantly improved as well as things like Task manager. It would be an outstanding improvement had they not tried to do this stupid forced metro BS.

Re:Not good enough

[citizenr]

Oh, you are doing it wrong. You should use new powerful Search function instead, just search for shutdown.exe !

Re:Not good enough

[Aphrika]

Individual app buttons can be shrunk in 8.1 - there's a new size that's a quarter of the current square tile. Oddly, there's also a huge tile that's twice the size as well...

I'm with you on the Start Screen Search though, it's good to see that working as it should. Long term, I'm happy to see the end of the Start Menu. Sure it looked nice, but pixel perfect mousing when you were four, five levels down and the whole thing reset because you moused onto the desktop was annoying, plus the thing was just a hive of .lnk files under the bonnet that seemed to redraw half the time I was using it. It was archaic and needed to go and I'm surprised so many people were up in arms about it to be honest.

Hopefully they can build on the Start Screen over time. While I don't think 8.1 is there yet - not by a long way - it's certainly a move in the right direction.

Re:Not good enough

[AmiMoJo]

Windows 8 has much better multi-monitor support, with a task bar on each screen and window tabs split between them appropriately. That's the biggest improvement but there are many other smaller ones. Nothing earth shattering, I'll grant you.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

"You" is plural as well. Did you know that? The actual second person singular in English is "thou". The singular "you" gained acceptance when people realized the double benefit of having a simpler language and of not being pretentious dickbags.

I thank thee.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell do you press the power button on a server 2000 miles away? did you even read the post you replied to? Although Ctrl+Alt+End typically works very well in that situation.

Re:Not good enough

[rjstanford]

I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place

Then bug the developers of the applications that you use in your project to include session save and restore.

At which point rebooting to correct the "common hiccup" will no longer work.

Re:Not good enough

[gstoddart]

You are speaking as a developer, not someone who has come through the support ranks.

I've been a developer, a system admin, a designer, a consultant, the system architect, chief cook and bottle washer, and I've done customer facing support with angry customers (never front-line help desk stuff, more like escalations).

Part of the problem I see with a lot of people in the industry is the attitude of "stupid end users" and "we're IT, we know everything" -- and a lot of people tend to forget we're usually there to support the people who actually do the company business, unless your business is actually creating software. Some days it's like Mordac the Preventer from Dilbert.

And when you get some smarmy little wanker with a year or so out of college who thinks he knows more than anybody else, it has the effect of just annoying people.

I realize the limitations on support people because they're usually quite junior and only have the script to follow, but if you've ever encountered a business user who has a major deadline looming with many millions on the line, usually the suggestion to just reboot the machine and see what happens is enough to make them want to kill you.

It basically says "I have no idea how to fix your problem, but if you reboot and it goes away for a couple of days, someone else will take the next call". When this is the 5th time you've called about the same issue, it gets tedious. That guy who needs to prep documents for the board meeting? He wants results, not just someone telling him the standard set of troubleshooting steps.

When this same advice is given to people who have been in the industry for 20+ years who want to find a root-cause instead of some temporary (and time wasting) fix, the usual response is to give up on the support people altogether. If you can't open a ticket with the vendor, or escalate to someone who can, you're just an impediment.

I've actually watched a service desk guy trying to tell one of the web admins how to change a setting in IE -- a setting he'd already changed, and knew far more about than the service desk guys. Support tends to fall apart when they're responding to the people who keep your IT infrastructure going.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you never forget your /r... It really sucks to shut off a server on the other side of the country.

Re:Not good enough

[TheLink]

If there was someone physically compromising my systems and installing keyloggers, secure boot isn't going to help that much.

Hardware keyloggers, cameras, and even microphones[1] will all bypass secure boot.

They could even replace the innards of my mouse or keyboard with what's inside this: http://pentest.netragard.com/2011/06/24/netragards-hacker-interface-device-hid/

[1] http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/09/14_key.shtml
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/acoustic-snooping-typed-information/
http://it.slashdot.org/story/05/09/13/1644259/keyboard-sound-aids-password-cracking

Re:Not good enough

[ConceptJunkie]

I think my 13-year-old had the best comment ever about Windows 8. We were in Office Depot and he still likes to go over and play with the computers. He said he thought it was really stupid that MS got rid of the desktop in Windows 8 (we don't own any Windows 8 machines, and neither of us is familiar with it). I explained that the desktop is still there; you just need to know how to switch to it. His comment was that he doesn't want to have to know Easter Eggs just to use his computer.

Re:Not good enough

[GonzoPhysicist]

So turning it off and on again won't help?

Re:Not good enough

[houghi]

Perhaps most, but not me. I never understood the start button. You have all this place and then put everything under one button? You need to scrolls and scroll and scroll til you get what you want.

This is the same under many Linux desktops. I use XFCE and there is happens as well. I do not use it. Instead I have several 'start buttons'. Each with its own group of programs.

Another thing I never got are desktop icons. The desktop is where my programs are. Why must I close, minimize or move my program to launch another program, when the start button is right there.

That said, I also use multiple workspaces where the different programs are already open and grouped when I log in. So I do not need to start most applications, as they are already running.

WIN-1 to go to workspace 1 and then WIN-TAB (instead of ALT-TAB) to switch and get the desired one to the front if so needed. So no need to go to the mouse or release the WIN button.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of focusing on the less important bugs, Microsoft has decided to working on Ubuntu bug #1.

Re:Not good enough

[21mhz]

What do you expect from people who miss a three-level menu of 1995 design vintage.
They probably still think that the power button causes a hard power-off, like it did back in the days.

Re:Not good enough

[lgw]

I've gotten used to "Windows Key + i"

Thank you! The UI is even more restricted in Server 2012, but that still works to get me to the (otherwise well hidden) control panel. Very handy.

Re:Not good enough

[TemporalBeing]

I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place

Then bug the developers of the applications that you use in your project to include session save and restore.

Often they just need to save/open a Word document or something similar...the main issue is they don't want to take the 20-30 minute coffee break while the system boots back up or logs in due to all the crap they have running that they don't really need, or that corporate forces on them.

Re:Not good enough

[cayenne8]

Same here.

I have about 5-6 computers at any given time up and running 24/7 at home. I don't feel like booting them up when I want just jump quickly on them...some for play, some for email sever, webserver...etc.

During summer with the AC running 24/7 for the most part (in New Orleans this lasts from roughly May through November), I'd not even notice a blip on the power bill if I turned the computers off all over the house.

Re: Not good enough

[TemporalBeing]

You're right, it's bad software. Use Linux instead. Expecting real uptime on windows is laughable. I can leave win 7 running with nothing open and come after holiday to find it in a worse state.

Not to mention that the Windows "up-time" counter only allows it to be up for just over 49 days (but not 50 days) before it rolls over. So even Microsoft expects Windows to be rebooted quite regularly.

Re:Not good enough

[JDG1980]

Yes, different people want different things, and that's the point. Windows used to be highly customizable, but Win8 virtually eliminates this. Partly it's due to marketing and partly due to evil "UI experts" who believe one size should fit all and that options are bad.

What Microsoft should be doing on the desktop is making the whole thing skinnable and customizable with XAML. That way, if someone doesn't like the way things are by default, they don't have to resort to a third-party solution; they can just change it. I've never understood why themes in Windows are locked down and require a hack to use. What are they concerned about? Just add a group policy switch for businesses, even default it to 'disable themes' if they must – but allow full customization for those who want or need it.

Re:Not good enough

[lgw]

Which is an abomination, a linguistic atrocity that all right-thinking people loath and despise. The pronoun "he" is used for both masculine and indefinite gender in English. Some people are so eager to be offended that they have a problem with this, but I rather suspect such people have many problems.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

They should do what they did in Windows 2012. It's awesome. I can't live without it any more. Everybody supplier that had to configure their software on our 2012 fell in love with it right away.

Re:Not good enough

[Vegemeister]

No need. S3 suspend has been a universally available feature for over 5 years (and nearly universal before that). Just run pm-suspend and your power consumption will drop below 10W, with no loss of working state.

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

You should update your 15 year old humor.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

Exactly, too many departments and companies are refusing 8 because it's a step backwards in many ways, and a step forward into oblivion.....if they want Windows to mimic an I-Phone they should just go ahead and admit it...

Re:Not good enough

[lgw]

The singular "you" gained acceptance when people realized the double benefit of having a simpler language and of not being pretentious dickbags.

No, not really. English used to be like most languages in having both a familiar and a formal second person pronoun. Thou/thee was used to express familiarity, intimacy, or insult. "You" was the formal third person pronoun, both singular and plural.

Around Shakespeare's time, the more formal "you" began to dominate out of over-politeness - effectively "being pretentious dickbags" was the goal. People would avoid "thou" because it might give offense, which meant it was more often used insultingly, and that feedback continued until no one used "thou". "Dost thou 'thou' me thou dog?"

Re:Not good enough

[21mhz]

So you are suggesting that Metro should foster shoddily written applications that cannot properly tombstone themselves and require manual lifecycle control? Then people who got used to apps exiting seamlessly on the mobile platforms get back to Windows and wonder why they need to bother with task management like it's still the 1990s.

Re:Not good enough

[0123456]

Also it's not like you can't go to the start and type in power and have the option pop up.

You're right. Every time I power off my computer I really want to have to go to the command line and type 'power' to find the option to do so rather than just click on it.

Re:Not good enough

[gestalt_n_pepper]

I emphatically agree, but probably not in the way you meant. One of my prime windows annoyances is that when I hit the close button on a window, NOTHING happens.

So, dear Microsoft. Let me give you a little advice. When I say "Stop" anything, it should STOP. Not "when all the processes are safely closed." Not "when all the files are written to disk." Not "when it's given the correct priority in queue."

NOW. STOP NOW!

Clean up that shit in the background on your own time. I have work to do and I'M THE HUMAN who *paid* for this thing. The computer is nothing. Nothing at all. It's a toaster. A toy. I turn it on. I turn it off. When I say "jump," the only thing I want to hear from that machine is "Yes Sir! How high Sir! RIGHT AWAY SIR!

Get the picture?

Re:Not good enough

[JDG1980]

I'm with you on the Start Screen Search though, it's good to see that working as it should. Long term, I'm happy to see the end of the Start Menu. Sure it looked nice, but pixel perfect mousing when you were four, five levels down and the whole thing reset because you moused onto the desktop was annoying, plus the thing was just a hive of .lnk files under the bonnet that seemed to redraw half the time I was using it. It was archaic and needed to go and I'm surprised so many people were up in arms about it to be honest.

That was true of the 'classic' Start menu, but Windows 7 didn't even have that. The modern Start menu lets you get the tree-view of everything that every installer spammed in your system - it's under 'All Programs' - but what you're supposed to do for your most commonly used applications is pin them to the left panel. You can pin any application on Win7 by right-clicking and choosing 'Pin to Start menu'. I usually also turn off the default option to 'show recently used programs' on the Start Menu - I'd rather have it only show the stuff I want, not the stuff the system thinks I should want.

Re:Not good enough

[Vegemeister]

All 6 of the hobbyists that actually did so will be very glad to hear of that change.

Re:Not good enough

[coastal984]

I wish I had mod points right now for this. It's very true - end user support staff are asked to support a massively wide range of applications and end user environments. Rebooting is almost always a go-to to make sure something the user has done during the session isn't causing the issue. It gives you a fresh instance of the computer to try and recreate and troubleshoot the issue. I suggest gstoddart get in the trenches one day and allow us all to laugh as he languishes with backlogged tickets as he tries to "figure out why something doesn't work" instead of just rebooting the damn thing.

Re:Not good enough

[Northern Pike]

I'm curious to know how many people that get so worked up about this this have really tried Windows 8. After having used the OS now for 6 months I just don't get the outrage. I do not miss the start menu or the start button. And yes, I'm working on a desktop. I understand that older folks like my elderly parents might get confused as ANY change to anything upsets them but they don't go posting about it on Slashdot because that would be too hard for them to figure out...

If I already had Windows 7 I wouldn't bother with Windows 8 (unless I was also looking to use Windows 8 tablets and wanted to share my apps/configs). But if you have a Windows box I find it a big improvement over earlier versions.

Re:Not good enough

[sosume]

Windows-d and then alt-f4 is even faster to shut it down.

Re:Not good enough

[jellomizer]

I love it how Slashdot users (most of them using a Linux based OS) goes Ape Shit over the lack of a start button and menu, while most of the Linux distributions don't use one themselves. In actually Windows 8 Desktop is more Linux like then you care to admit. Ok going full screen for the main menu is different. But is it really that bad? Especially if you pin your common desktop apps to the tool bar, like in GNOME, KDE, OS X...

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Secure Boot will not prevent keyloggers from being installed.

Re:Not good enough

[fahrbot-bot]

Oh, you are doing it wrong. You should use new powerful Search function instead, just search for shutdown.exe !

You joke, but from TFAs:

Windows Blog: In Windows 8.1, the Search charm will provide global search results powered by Bing in a rich, simple-to-read, aggregated view of many content sources (the web, apps, files, SkyDrive, actions you can take) to provide the best “answer” for your query. We think this will really change the way you interact with the Web and with windows making it quicker and easier to get things done. It is the modern version of the command line!

ArsTechnica: Search is getting reworked to aggregate search results from multiple content sources, including files, apps, settings, and the Web, simultaneously.

I hope the user can customize the search scope.
I'm not sure I want my local searches pushed out to web searches and/or via Bing! (like the Ubuntu Shopping Lens)

Re:Not good enough

[elabs]

Are you SERIOUS?! I never want to see the old Start Menu again. It's a clunky throwback from last decade and it's a crutch. I hope they never bring it back.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

You said it perfectly; however, they do "get it" - they just don't want to get it.They are using 8.1 to make us think they are giving us a Start button and they can call it anything they want, but if doesn't work like the traditional Start button, then it's just pure Microsoft BS. AND, I hate the tiles that Microsoft is trying to force down our throats. I am with the vast majority who will NEVER BUY windows 8 !!!!

Re:Not good enough

[Pentium100]

It still looks awful to me (not to mention expects a good graphics card - find that in a VM). Copying explorer.exe from Win7 and killing dwm.exe at least switches to the Windows 7 look where windows have clearly defined borders, but may make the system unstable (without DWM it can't display certain things).

Also, since normally the dwm (compositing) cannot be turned off and defaults to using the GPU for rendering (which is good most of the time, assuming it does not make the GPU go to full power mode), I wonder how that would affect other software that use the GPU for calculations (bitcoin mining etc).

Re:Not good enough

[fast turtle]

An hour for sleep in a business setting? That's too fucking long. It should be 10 minutes at the most. Forget the fucking screensaver and simply go to sleep. Much better power savings then. On my linux system, I have it set to sleep in 10 minutes. Long enough that it's not annoying, short enough to do some damn good. Only problem I have is I have to hit the power button to wake it up as even the USB goes to sleep unlike windows.

Re: Not good enough

[thetoadwarrior]

Post a screenshot of it.

Re:Not good enough

[tftp]

I use more than one computer simultaneously. If I don't touch the keyboard or a mouse for a while, it doesn't mean that there is not something on the screen that I need to see all the time.

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

You are obviously not a normal user, because you want to use 16 GB of RAM. Those who want to use their computer to surf the web and compose email can easily do this with 2 GB of RAM. Of course now that you have that problem solve with Windows 7, you're all set to edit HD video or immense Photoshop files.

Re:Not good enough

[RandomFactor]

This. On the one system I have Win 8 on (a truly horrifible experience on a non touchscreen) I loaded Classic Shell after spending several hours trying to make the thing usable and finally doing some Google searches for "make Windows 8 Usable"

Here's the thing - If you take a Generic_Grandma_001, who is running any other version of Windows, EVER, and give her two identical machines: One running almost any recent flavor of Linux and another running Windows 8....she's going to have an easier time using the Linux interface. It is simply closer to what she knows than Windows 8. This is a staggering failure on Microsoft's part and is reflected in market resistance to Win8, not that there seems much ability to capitalize on it by alternatives. Oh well...

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

or just hold the power button for 4 seconds... that generally does the trick of shutting down (just press it again for a reboot).

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

Windows 8 may be better internally than Windows 7, especially for power users such as found here on /., but for most people and businesses it won't matter even one little tiny bit.

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

So what percentage of computer users, both commercial and consumer, use multiple monitors?

Re:Not good enough

[vux984]

Windows used to be highly customizable, but Win8 virtually eliminates this.

You couldn't put the old start button in the middle of the taskbar, or resize it in windows 7, and you still can't in 8. You could change it's colors when it popped up, change what's pinned on it and the order of some of things, and you can do all that with the new one too.

You are seriously overstating the case.

. Partly it's due to marketing and partly due to evil "UI experts" who believe one size should fit all and that options are bad.

Its mostly its due to the fact that windows wants the core operating system to be operable by touch.

And behond that the UI guys were right. The old start menu was stupid. A small non-resizable POPUP window containing a huge deep heirarchy of folders is beyond poor.

There ARE a few widgets and functions that the start menu did well. Most of them are more than adequately served by defining a toolbar.

The ONLY thing missing from windows 8 is a good small desktop search box. That's it. That's pretty much the entirety of the "travesty" of the windows 8 start menu debacle.

There's a few other complaints...such as hot corners, but really its nowhere near as bad as somple people have made out.

What Microsoft should be doing on the desktop is making the whole thing skinnable and customizable with XAML

I disagree. If you want to do that, Linux has more window managers and widgets and effects to choose from than you'll ever want. After you play around with them for a few years (because it will take that long to just try most of them out with any sort of depth), while you may find a setup that fits you like a glove you'll come to see its drawbacks too... not least that it took you a few years.

Then there is also the issue that documentation is impossible to write, and support is impossible to provide, things break unexpectedly, and so on. And that the users least qualified to completely reskin their system are the ones most likely to have done it. My mother in law downloaded something that made her pc sort of resemble OSX (new icon sets, cursors, backgrounds, task bar layout, etc I'm sure you've seen them out there); she was lost beyond hope, and couldn't even figure out how to undo it. She was able to limp along a bit could still read her email and browse the web... until she bought a new printer. Can you imagine what the support call to the poor saps at HP would have been like? :p

That's when I got involved, cleaned it out, restored it to default and suggested she not customize it.

Two weeks later she'd replaced all her cursors and had custom sounds effects that she couldn't figure out how to get rid of.

End result: user blames Windows for being terrible.

Re:Not good enough

[tepples]

I can be using 4 different applications and have multiple tabs open in each for a single project.

Your complaint is that the filenames of open documents would be lost across a restart. That can be solved as I described elsewhere. Then all you'd have to do is click your pinned applications on the taskbar, and those tabs will reopen. Firefox and Notepad++ already support this.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

This is impractical in many cases. If you've got a desktop usually it is under the desk, so reaching under to push the power button is clumsy. The physical button does not help you in any way with doing things like restart or sleep.

This lack of easy shutdown is just more evidence that Microsoft intended Windows 8 to be for tablets and not actual computers.

Re:Not good enough

[Cederic]

This is ironic, as I've been sick for years of the idiots incapable of using a keyboard that encourage fuckwit design decisions which fuck over people who can do things far quicker with mouse+keyboard rather than just a mouse.

I'm now blaming you personally for the atrocity that Microsoft called a 'ribbon'.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

That's the Microsoft stance on everything: "you're doing it wrong".

How does it automatically go on standby? Does it know when I'm just going to be gone for 5 minutes to use the restroom versus being gone all night? If I'm leaving for the night I do NOT want it on an extra 5 minutes sucking up electricity (it isn't cheap and infinite you know).

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

And that brings us back to the original issue here regarding power off. It used to be convenient and easy to find on the START MENU. Now it is hidden and not obvious at all. It's in Settings of all the bizarre places. Powering on and off has nothing to do with Settings. And real desktop users use the control panel instead of Settings anyway. Just another sign of Microsoft being completely out of touch with their customers.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

Side bar has no useful features for one thing. Start menu may not have been the best thing ever but only Microsoft could come up with a replacement that was even worse.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

Wow, I never actually considered using ctrl-alt-del for this! I'm going to try it.

Re:Not good enough

[tompaulco]

It actually works for people who don't use a junk OS.
I'm sure it does, but we are referring to Windows 8.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

"Nobody does X anymore" is the whole defense of Windows 8 in the first place. Ie, "nobody uses mouse and keyboard anymore they're too old fashioned", "no one powers off anymore because electricity is infinite and free", "nobody needs a start menu because all the good stuff is in metro", "nobody is over 30 anymore", etc.

Re:Not good enough

[AmiMoJo]

About 75% of users at my company have dual monitors. Sometimes they have two desktop monitors, sometimes they have a laptop and second monitor. It's only an anecdote but I'd say it is more common than you think.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

Telepresence button pushers. They also double as telepresence finger pointers. Everyone should have one.

Re:Not good enough

[Skreems]

With normal deletes yes. Obliterate wipes out the history as well as the current version.

Not saying I fully believe that rumor, but given the massive dick-measuring contest that was Microsoft product design when I worked there, I don't find it beyond the realm of possibility.

Re:Not good enough

[painandgreed]

Rebooting is the hail mary of a tech that doesn't want to fix the problem. In my experience, very few, if any of those are true. This goes doubly for the desktop OS stuff I've had to support.

Rebooting is one of the first steps of troubleshooting because if you can't replicate the problem, you'll never be able to tell if you actually fixed it.

Re:Not good enough

[Pubstar]

I shut down my PC all the time... mostly because I have a 1200w PSU in there.

Re:Not good enough

[Angeret]

Yeah, that's what I really want to do. Instead of click-click-walk away, I can type in something to find something to tell my PC to shut down. Cool. Can I also search for programs that might not have the name I think they do so I can run them also? That's much easier than click-click-running.

Christ, we may as well go back to DOS with a bespoke GUI for each & every program program!

Re:Not good enough

[UnknownSoldier]

> As someone who *has* up from support, your opinion is, quite frankly, ludicrous:

And as someone who has been programming since the early 80's AND done support work you are STILL missing the point:
    You are treating the SYMPTOM and not the CAUSE.

gstoddart point is Valid:
      (Almost) Any software that forces the user to reboot / restart to "fix" the problem was _designed_ AND _implemented_ by an idiot.

Yes, we all "know" that the running joke of the way to "treat" software on Windows is to reboot. Which just proves the original point. Yes, there are a lot of smart IT out there -- hell I work with some of them. HOWEVER they do NOT understand the technical details of HOW the systems interact, WHY they do the way they do ALL THOUGH the good ones are damn good at "reverse engineering" how the systems interact. Kudos to them!

Them problem is the stupid script monkeys in "IT" that just tell users to reboot without thinking about what the REAL problem is. Of course there are some developers whose "dev box" doesn't match the "test box" which doesn't match the "production box". We are not talking about that case -- we are talking about assuming all things are equal you are completely failing to understand the point of software: TO HELP PEOPLE DO THEIR JOB. Again I repeat: Only lazy & idiot developers _AND_ support force people to reboot / tell people to "restart the app" in order to "fix" the problem. BOTH sides need to understand that they are on the same team.

Let me give you a perfect example. On OSX if you open multiples copies of TextEdit, type some text, do not save, and force a power-reboot, OSX will come back with ALL your windows & text just as you left them EVEN though the user never saved them. THIS is what computers are supposed to be about: Streamlining the user experience!! Microsoft's retarded "Windows Update Reboot" cycle can't even show you WHICH patches will force a reboot like OSX does! Again more idiotic design. Yes, IT has to support bone-headed design and implementation but choosing to remain ignorant about stupid developers and not holding them responsible to fix their shit is not helping anyone.

Hell, I can even upgrade my (nVidia) GPU drivers without rebooting. This is the correct way to design software: By focusing on the end user experience. THAT is what gstoddart was pointing out that you completely failed to understand.

To repeat a broken cliche: "It is about the users, stupid!" /rant off.

Re:Not good enough

[FuzzNugget]

A million friggin' times this.

Is Microsoft really thus delusional or have they all drank the Metro flavored kool-aid?

Re:Not good enough

[antdude]

Yeah and a common hotkeys in Windows. Much easier to remember. :)

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont be a fool, it demonstrates how simple it is to learn alternatives to your rusted mussle memory. If innovation is not for you, stick with WinXP or OSx

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

From your wikipedia page:

Though semantically singular or ambiguous, singular they remains morphologically and syntactically plural (e.g. it still takes plural forms of verbs).

So my comment that the word 'said' after the word 'they' was improper still stands.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

No need. S3 suspend has been a universally available feature for over 5 years (and nearly universal before that). Just run pm-suspend and your power consumption will drop below 10W, with no loss of working state.

Finally! I'm amazed at how many responses of "I leave it running 24-7 cuz I can't be bothered" there are. Hell, enable the 5v jumper on USB and you can wake it using just about anything!

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

wait for it.. wait for it.. wait for it. they are the same device.

Unless you buy a tablet in 2016 and glue it to a crate, tie it to the wall, and put it besides your your tv, in which case you have made a retro (zombie) PC.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

You can still get Windows 7 on new PCs.

And yes, you're right that most will have Windows 8. However when someone asks "what's good about Windows 8" the answer should not be "you're forced to use it".

Re:Not good enough

[N0Man74]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

From mainstream users, I expect complaints about the Start menu, but I find it surprising how many people in a more technically inclined audience like Slashdot complain about this. I find the Start Screen to be mostly functionally equivalent,with a few exceptions, to a Start Menu.

I tend to use the mouse as little as possible and use many shortcut keys. In the parts of the interface that I use the most, it's been either equivalent or more keyboard friendly than Windows 7.

There are annoyances, sure. The Start Screen File Search (Win+F) only searches in your User Folders for File Names, but completely ignores Folder Names (unless they are added to your start screen or made into a Library). Opening the Context menu on the Start Screen shows several options, but there are no Shortcut keys to select them. Shutdown ('nuff said). Losing Subfolders from the old Start Menu. The items in the Start Screen don't allow for editing properties (like the old Start Menu shortcuts) in order to add parameters and such. I don't like the Windows 8 style apps.

And my single biggest Gripe... No longer being able to hit "Alt+F" to open a File Menu, you must "Alt, F" (2 strokes). (I swear, that drives me bonkers the most and I've never heard anyone complain about that...)

But most of those are less frequent interface interactions. Sure, there were some bad design choices, and there were a few features that were inexplicably removed, but there were actually numerous improvements too.

I HATE the ribbon interface in Office, but I think it works well in Explorer. Explorer's File searching is more user-friendly than Windows 7, and no longer requires you to use non-obvious search terms that only power users will be familiar with. Making the Start Screen to be more about what you want to use and how you use them, rather than everything you have installed (use "All Apps" for that). I use the new Win+X key all the time. Many tools and utilities were substantially improved.

Anyway, yes there are things that annoy me about it, and I understand if some people don't like it, but I feel like much of the criticism is very biased, hyperbolic, and/or misinformation.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't solve the problem for any reasonable definition of "solve". It makes the symptoms go away, until the problem reoccurs. Which of course, will then be handled by another helpdesk drone who will offer the same advice.

One time, I went through the usual troubleshooting bullshit with a helpdesk tech. Yes, it's plugged in, no rebooting doesn't solve my problem. Can you transfer me to someone who can sell me a replacement bottom case for my laptop to replace the one that cracked? (This, after I told the useless fuck what the problem was at the beginning of the call.)

I don't even bother with support any more, because I know that the first 2 people I talk to will result in all of us wasting our time.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

They have almost nothing in Charms! What are you talking about. Everyting is in control panel as always, except for Metro specific customization. Most of the charms bar is unused on a typical desktop: "Devices" doesn't do much despite having devices connected to the computer (it appears to be used for adding a second monitor); "Search" you can do by just staring to type; "Settings" is very minimal"; and "Start" is just another way to get the metro screen; "Share" was always a stupid concept and it's even more limited than it used to be (good luck using it if you dont also use metro apps).

Re:Not good enough

[aix tom]

As a person doing ~20 years of admin, develpment and tech support I say *when* something goes pear-shaped in your Windows session *at that moment* the only thing that can be done to quickly fix it *at that moment* is a reboot. (Or, in case of a terminal server, often only a re-login is sufficient)

Only when you have pinpointed 2-3 recurring instances of a specific thing going reproducibly wrong under specific circumstances does an admin or help-desk even have the chance of figuring something out the technical root cause. Even now, where I am in the "help-desk heaven" situation of doing in-house second level support support where I can connect to every user session pull up event-logs, see user processes, see all client and server log files of all applications, etc... (so can get a much clearer picture of "what is going on" than a person who only can talk to the user on the phone) when a user calls with a "Windows Mystery"* the decision has to be made by the user if he needs to work with his Windows session again in 5-15 minutes (reboot/relogin) or if he has the time to "leave his windows session open for us to investigate possible root causes", which takes about at least 2-3 hours most of the time.

Of course first level support is mostly about making the problem go away for now, not about fixing the root cause. To fix the root cause you will definitely need to reach some higher level in support, best with a reproducible test case of the problem happening.

*Our current "Windows Mystery" at work: sometimes (1-2 times a week with ~1500 users working each day) the "Cursor up" key in Outlook stops working. Restarting Outlook doesn't fix it, re-login does.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

All the metro apps feel like they were rushed. Some are unfinished, some feel like demos, some just don't make sense. I really think that they were forced to ship with these apps before they were ready. These are essentially the equivalent of the builtin utilities that came with windows 3.1.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

Good for you. Now what about everyone who doesn't feel as you do? You think the giant blocky icons on metro are a replacement for a hierarchical and easily readable menu?

I only use one thing on Metro screen, and that's the Firefox icon, because it sends me to desktop and opens the browser at the same time. If I remove all unused and will-never-use metro apps then there is nothing left but stuff that used to be in the start menu.

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

I use OS X every day at work, Windows 8 at home, and I still prefer the W7 start menu over the idiotic W8 start screen.

Re:Not good enough

[LordLimecat]

It doesn't solve anything, just makes the problem go away for a while (if at all).

While GENERALLY true, this is not always true. Sometimes hardware goes crazy; sometimes a crappy-but-necessary driver freaks out. In some cases it really is necessary to simply power down and let everything re-initialize.

For instance, I have known printers with Fiery boxes on the back of them that have problems every so often, and the fix (known by basically anyone familiar with Fiery boxes) is to power cycle them. You can spend hours trying to figure out what went wrong, but the end answer is that Fiery boxes are crappy, and they go on the fritz every so often.

Ditto with crappy pc hardware. You could spend forever trying to troubleshoot that logitech webcam driver bluescreen, or accept that every 4-5 months youre gonna have a bluescreen "just because".

Re:Not good enough

[21mhz]

That's a different issue. I'm not defending the quality of the Current metro apps, some of them really leave a lot to be desired. I like Bing News and another news app, though.

Getting back to the (non-)problem of closing apps, this can actually be done manually through the application list.

Re:Not good enough

[orthancstone]

Can't imagine why, but to each their own. Every time I go back to my Win7 box these days, cringe over using the start menu and its terrible layout.

Re:Not good enough

[TangoMargarine]

A) Standby still uses watts.
B) Shutting down your computer regularly can help you notice an impending hard drive failure before it completely dies instead of rebooting one day, for the first time in 2 years, and your drive is bricked.

Re:Not good enough

[cbhacking]

Yes, and always has in fact. The trick is to make sure you've got the Desktop (and not something running *on* said Desktop) selected. One way to do this is the Win+D (Show/Hide Desktop toggle) shortcut. In Win8, Win+D also will take you directly do the desktop from anywhere, including either a Metro app or the Start screen.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not talking about a problem with tech support. He's talking about a problem with the platform manufacturer requiring people to reboot to 'fix' what shouldn't be broken.

Re:Not good enough

[dbIII]

With closed source software you you usually cannot treat the cause. At best you can put a bug report in a queue and hope it makes it to someone that can understand what it means.

Re:Not good enough

[cbhacking]

Things Win8 does that Win7 doesn't (out of the box):
  * Mount ISOs.
  * Include anti-virus.
  * Sync settings and bookmarks across systems.
  * Allow you to access Exchange servers (through ActiveSync, not just IMAP/POP3).
  * Let you launch things like Command Prompt as Admin with two clicks from anywhere (right-click on Start button / Win+X menu).
  * Automate the process of reinstalling the OS while preserving your files.
  * Powerful virtualization (Client Hyper-V, though it's disabled by default).
  * A more informative and more powerful Task Manager.
  * Smaller memory footprint (page combining).
  * Improved scheduling support for the latest AMD processors.
  * Improved multi-monitor support (wallpaper spanning, taskbar spanning, icons showing on specific taskbars, etc.)
  * First-party PDF reader. ... lots more, but that's a good start. Every version of Windows - even the much-reviled ME - has introduced new features that no previous version had. Without going into "Metro" at all except for the built-in email and Reader apps (which are fully usable without a touchscreen, as all Metro apps are required to be), I've given you a non-exhaustive list of Win8 advantages for non-touchscreen users. It's not that hard to find them; just actually use the OS (even without a touchscreen and staying almost entirely on the desktop) for a while.

Re:Not good enough

[LO0G]

Funny, I've always used CTRL-ALT-DEL -S, uparrow once then enter. Or mouse up instead. It's way easier than the whole charms bar thingy.

Re:Not good enough

[Totenglocke]

Bingo. Make it so that the Metro interface can be completely disabled in the options menu and after it is disabled Windows looks exactly like Windows 7 and I'd consider it. It really seems like Microsoft is on an "every other release" cycle where XP was great, Vista was shit, Win 7 was great, Win 8 is shit, etc.

Re:Not good enough

[dbIII]

What fun! An American telling us how to use English! I'm sorry, but I think "he" just looks stupid, misleading and ultimately embarrassing when it's used instead of "they" and the person just happens to be female.

Re:Not good enough

[cbhacking]

That's blatantly untrue for a large number of reasons, the most obvious one being that Win7, Vista, XP (for a while), Server 2003, Server 2008, and Server 2008 R2 are all still supported, and all still have classic Start menus. Therefore, they obviously still have the code, even if they did have to re-integrate it.

Also, the early (but post-BUILD) betas still had the Start menu (if you disabled the "redpill" in the registry). I suppose it's possible they obliterated it later, but I doubt it.

Finally, while they might have done the equivalent of "p4 obliterate", I rather doubt that's what they actually did; Microsoft doesn't use Perforce (although the Windows team does use something similar).

Re:Not good enough

[gagol]

If you press your physical "start" button for 5 seconds, your computer will stop...

Re:Not good enough

[gagol]

I installed Xubuntu, get multiple languages, a UI I like and can change as fit/install many if needed, have xen, KVM, VirtualBox for virtualization, one instance is runningn windows 7 just for adobe products! Don't do it backward, do it the right way!

Re:Not good enough

[mattack2]

...it's also the sign of someone who wastes a lot of power when they're not using the machine.

BTW, OS X will restart all of your apps/reopen your documents if you have to reboot (e.g. shut down for the day, or install an OS update).

Re: Not good enough

[toddestan]

That's true for a version of Windows that's almost old enough to vote. Maybe you ought to get with the times.

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

So what is your company involved in, that requires or makes it that much easier to do a job with two monitors? You must be involved with graphics or intensive programming development. What other businesses can you think of that increase job productivity markedly when two monitors are available? I know that if I had the choice between two monitors and one large 30 inch high-resolution monitor, I would pick the latter.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

"Windows 8 - A fool's shutdown design, a long journey." http://www.foolsdesign.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=102 *lol*

Re:Not good enough

[mattack2]

I shut down all of my computers, desktop & laptop, when I leave. Otherwise, it's just wasting power.

Re:Not good enough

[Solandri]

Congratulations Microsoft. Two decades after the GUI vanquished the command line, you've created a GUI which drives people back to memorizing hotkeys like secretaries in the WordPerfect days.

Re:Not good enough

[gagol]

Better call the help line... we are so deep in dept, we can't afford to lose another tax payer!

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of the children!

Re:Not good enough

[mattack2]

Doesn't it, if you hold it long enough? (Semi-serious question... that's definitely the behavior on some consumer electronics, and Macs.)

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

The rumor I heard is that they are adding an option to have the All applications page INSTEAD of the Metro app page. The start menu is all applications, so this is a compromise. Along with boot to desktop, most people should be happy.

Re:Not good enough

[PNutts]

You do realize that you described no more than a couple of minutes of launch time for those apps on a desktop with current hardware and some horsepower?

Just to let you know, you lost me at "starting everything from scratch would take foh-eh-vah". If you can't quantify it I think you are whining and I don't care.

Re:Not good enough

[the_humeister]

I have Xubuntu on dual boot. Other language with input (especially Chinese and Japanese) were a pain in the ass to set up.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, two browser window side by side. That's like revolution in computing.

Re:Not good enough

[gagol]

My local shop always let me buy OEM windows, as long as I buy some hardware with it. It usually is a 25 AC cord...

Re:Not good enough

[gagol]

Or just fetch the original code from an older branch in their CVS...

Re:Not good enough

[norite]

I have 4 monitors at my work. I'm a GIS (look it up) techie so I need many many windows open simultaneously. Win8/Metro would be a huge fail for us. Fortunately I could install classic shell and permanently forget all about that abortion formerly known as metro if push came to shove.

Re:Not good enough

[perryizgr8]

they are not going to charge for this update. its like sp1.

Re:Not good enough

[aiht]

With all those billions of dollars and thousands of smart people why couldn't Microsoft have actually helped us with something like this: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/29001/

Or this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/156693

Instead they come up with Metro...

At least they're trying to help fix this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

Re:Not good enough

[perryizgr8]

except its not an easter egg. desktop has the biggest possible tile visible as soon as you boot up. its literally a single left click away.

Re:Not good enough

[Mattsson]

Or, while in desktop, Alt+F4 for shutting down.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Which can suspend and hibernate perfectly fine. I never turn my laptop off. If it's plugged in, it automatically sleeps when idle or the lid is closed. If it's running on battery, it automatically hibernates. It has never had a problem doing that or waking. The same for Windows 7 and Vista in my experience. I have seen a few issues with XP, however.

Re:Not good enough

[Eivind]

Yeah okay, let's run with those. I waste 0.16KWh/workday, or about 35 KWh/year. Half of the year heating of the offices is required, thus the added heat is partially repaid. Let's say overall I waste 25 KWh/year.

This costs on the order of $5/year. At my current salary (including overhead), that's equivalent to 3 minutes and 30 seconds of working. In a *year*.

I could turn it of manually, 230 workdays, times 2, for a total of 460 times a year. Question is, can I turn of my PC 460 times in less than 3 and a half minutes ?

Yes, if the clicks required to ask my pc to sleep take less than 0.46 seconds on the average. This might actually be the case, seeing that I have a sleep-button in the upper-left corner of my keyboard, and hitting it when I leave might be doable in less than half a second extra.

But it's not precisely huge savings either way.

Re:Not good enough

[Myopic]

"They" isn't always plural. Why would you proffer something so obviously wrong?

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

the suggestion to reboot is the sign of a lazy and incompetent admin

Oh, OK. I'll just open my C compiler and fix the bugs in the OS that cause it to.....

No, that isn't my job. I support it and sometimes rebooting is the best answer to workaround a problem so someone can just get their damn work done while I find a better fix.

Acting like only "lazy" admins use this effective and proven approach where appropriate makes you sound like you have an MBA.

Re:Not good enough

[sgbett]

imagine if you had to type 'shutdown now'

Thats a whole extra 7 characters, possibly even more than 1 second of your time.

oh the horror.

Re:Not good enough

[sgbett]

The only thing worse than tech support telling you to reboot, is an end-user that calls you with a problem that hasn't already tried rebooting.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyYar]

In 8.1 they seem to have added more settings to charms. In 8.1, they now search everything and not just apps (just like Windows 7 does).

Re:Not good enough

[tftp]

This also adds wear to the fans that the computer has running.

Re:Not good enough

[doccus]

I just found out *precisely* that ... First cold start in months.. and my backup drive was hosed...

Re:Not good enough

[doccus]

Unfortunately, I use a Mac, and ever since OSX 10.6, rebooting is the only thing that makes the problem go away. I NEVER had to reboot a mac to solve a problem until a couple years ago.. now there are so many issues that require it, i an stunned...

Re: Not good enough

[chris.evans]

Metro has protential, it is a nice way to group social media and most used programs like weather and maps for when user doesn't need to work with files.

Re:Not good enough

[dywolf]

its our problem you situated your computer where its hard to get to the basic front panel controls?

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 7 seems to a successful release. Why? You heard very little of it in the news.

Re:Not good enough

[dgux69]

As the guys in Redmond want us(*) to use Metro (and therefore a touchscreen), what is the point of using keyboard shortcuts ?

That's consequent inconsequent !
But hey, the MS marketing gurus knows exactly what the world need, no matter how stupid, ridiculous or insane it is.

Definition of "us": anybody beside me

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC for obvious reasons: I work at Microsoft. I have a MSIT stock image of Windows 8 on a modern Thinkpad. It doesn't get more mainline than this.
Suspend/hibernate works ok, but deteriorates after a few days or less than a dozen suspend/recover cycles.After that point, the system gets very slow (usually drive churn) or explorer gets crashy and you have to wait for it to reload. Reboots at that point are wise. This experience is fairly normative compared to other employees in my division. I would not characterize this as "perfectly fine" and I'm looking forward to it being improved in 8.1.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I turn my PC off because I don't like leaving it on while I'm away from home for weeks or months.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in my experience it doesn't. It works flawlessly for me on my Asus G75.

If you are having problems, it's probably your computer hardware. You should get it fixed or buy a better laptop.

Re:Not good enough

[samwichse]

That should be a setting in the BIOS. Look for something like "Wake on USB."

Both my media machine and laptop have this enabled, and a simple tap of the spacebar wakes them up.

Sam

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Android has a sort an app key that lets you see which apps are running and jump between them, can also close them by swapping them away. Not sure what you mean about android having no multi-tasking, as far as I know that is true only for iOS.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

You can make a desktop shortcut that points to:

"C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /s /t 0"

That will shut down directly and suppress any "are you sure"s.

(restart is the same thing but with /r instead of /s)

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a number of keyboard shortcuts, such as Win+i, that can help you. However, I would still like a power button in the start and lock screens (latter including a password check).

Re:Not good enough

[Angeret]

Funnily enough, I can change between typing and clicking without difficulty, but in a GUI you honestly expect to have to start typing to do something that's at most 2 clicks? I came from pre-DOS systems where typing was the norm, I enjoy getting stuff done by mouse - for me it's faster. I type when I'm coding or banging out an email/letter/story or when it's required.

Why is there so much sudden love for having a dog and doing the barking yourself? What are you going to do when you have different clickables for a particular program/game with varied parameters - you gonna sit there and remember what to type every time you run one of them? You can remember the name of what it was you wanted to run? Are you sure? It's hard enough keeping people off of dodgy websites when they mis-type names, what's gonna happen when scumbags start writing malware that takes advantage of the need to type to run stuff on your own system and you mis-type.

Even controlling your PC by waving your hands about (new Kinect based stuff I believe) or talking to it in more than dead simple terms is going to be a dead starter compared to a point & click interface. (I could go on, but I feel I'm talking to the intentionally deaf when it comes to recent Windows versions.)

Re: Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a number of keyboard shortcuts, such as Win+i, that can help you. It's far from intuitive, but once you learn those couple of shortcuts, things get somewhat easier. I'd still like a power button in the start and lock screens, however...

Re:Not good enough

[Junta]

The task switcher is only a gui nicety. Look in an aftermarket task manager. Swiping away does not kill it necessarily, it just removes it from display. , Conversely, just because you see a screenshot of it, it still might have been killed by the OS and switch back will be a start over. The ICS last application UI acts like its previous incarnation, except it scales to more apps, allows swipe to remove elements, and has thumbnail screenshots (*not* live preview as WebOS had, for example).

At least in ICS, this is the case. I don't have any Jelly Bean device to look at its behavior. Maybe the swipe to kill works now, but I would be massively surprised if Android ever removes its 'kill on a whim' design.

Re:Not good enough

[Junta]

I'm saying robbing the user of the control is bad. A lot of workflows got crippled.

For example, it is common for me to hit a slow loading website and tab-away to do something else for a second. In Metro IE, tabbing-away stops the loading activity.

In therms of fostering app developers who fail to properly tombstone, if android ecosystem has taught us anything is that developers are content to churn out shoddy work and never care. A platform that *forces* the developer to do more work isn't a defensible feature when an alternative model has existed for decades without a lot of issue.

Re: Not good enough

[Jefftoe]

I agree. Software power switches monitor for activity continuously and therefore use power. It's even good to remove the battery when not in use for long periods. And apparently, no one on here has severe lightning storms. Ive been through some nearly p*ssing myself. Strikes in the yard just feet away. I want everything unplugged and when it's unplugged, not to waste the battery. Or at least not affect it's tolerance. I'm a ham radio operator and batteries and power is a huge concern. Secondary to only antennas maybe ... everything should be "shutoffable!" Lol I made a word I think ;)

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Truly a comedian after my own heart! Funny AND True!! LOL!

Re:Not good enough

[21mhz]

In therms of fostering app developers who fail to properly tombstone, if android ecosystem has taught us anything is that developers are content to churn out shoddy work and never care. A platform that *forces* the developer to do more work isn't a defensible feature when an alternative model has existed for decades without a lot of issue.

A vision of a platform, however niche, that prioritizes quality over quantity and penalizes writers of shoddy software appeared before my eyes for a moment... Can it be? From Microsoft? That would be delicate irony.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the stop button is actually the power button of the computer. It should trigger by default the Windows shutdown procedure.

Re:Not good enough

[sgbett]

For anything else, I agreed breaking flow could be irritating.

If you are shutting down... well your flow is kind of over.

Re:Not good enough

[nofile404]

"Charms Bar"??!!! Oh yeah, that's good. I think I'll get along without Windows VISTA redux a while longer. Charms Bar, indeed.

Re:Not good enough

[Angeret]

True, but this is just one thing of many that people have griped over with W8. If something as simple as turning your PC off causes so many complaints, WTF is going on inside the rest of the OS? A friend of mine was showing off a little a few weeks back - "I'm running Windows 8 now". 2 days ago - no longer. His comment was that as he's so used to his Xbox for playing games it was nothing more than that to him. Hell, I said that from the first screenie I saw of the Metro front end; Win8 is Windows 7 with it's guts removed and a great way to turn an (sometimes) expensive investment into a games console.

If you use Windows in business and you change over to 8, you're pretty much getting a "fuck you" from Microsoft. Like the filofax was for the ME! generation of the 80's, 8 is nothing more than a plastic titted botox faced front end for the "social" generation of the 2010s. It has no place in business, little place in a home office but is gonna be just dandy in the living room. Just wait until they tell you the next PC you buy MUST come with a Kinect.

(okay, it's 06:20, I need sleep as I'm rambling)

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Mark claims it's fixed already.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft does a great job of making one shitty OS after another!

Re:Not good enough

[KevReedUK]

If you've got a desktop usually it is under the desk

I'm guessing the official response from not only Microsoft, but also most hardware vendors here would be "You're doing it wrong!"

The clue is in the name... Desktop... i.e. it goes on top of the desk!

Re:Not good enough

[Skreems]

Right... they use SourceDepot, which is a code-level fork of P4 from around 2002 (if I remember correctly). It didn't seem like a useful distinction to make given that the majority of /. doesn't work for MS.

Re:Not good enough

[Grishnakh]

The issue with Microsoft is that they went about this wrong. They forced significant changes upon users where changes were not really warranted.

Yes, actually they were warranted: Microsoft needs people to get used to Metro and learn to like it, so they'll want to buy phones and tablets with Metro too (Windows Phones and Surface tablets). WinPhones aren't doing well in the market, so people need to be pushed into buying them somehow.

This is particularly a big issue in companies where users are accustomed to working on the same style of desktop etc. These are people that complain when an icon is moved on their desktop or get confused with minor changes to applications so a full UI overhaul in the corporate space was truly a bad idea and one which will cost Microsoft dearly in the years ahead.

With people being forced to use Metro on their work PCs, they'll get used to it and like it, and want it on their phones and tablets too. Since corporations absolutely refuse to abandon Microsoft OSes for their workers' PCs, Microsoft can leverage their near-monopoly here. Of course, some companies will hold out with Win7 for a while, but that can only last so long. What are these companies going to do anyway, switch to Mac or Linux? Despite a lot of huffing and puffing, they haven't done it yet in any significant numbers.

Giving options to use their new interface components is a better approach

No it's not, because then people will just turn Metro off and never look at it again, instead of being forced to get accustomed to it.

(one which Apple has taken with their desktop OS

People don't need to be pushed and manipulated to buy Apple stuff like they do Microsoft stuff, so Apple doesn't have to resort to measures like these.

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: gaming.

Two words: Crysis 3.

Re: Not good enough

[theJML]

If my wife could stick with XP for the rest of her life, she'd be quite happy. Too bad it doesn't get updates anymore and will soon fail to do various things on modern hardware.

Innovation is cool, Forcing users to use their desktops like tablets just because you want to reduce the differences between them isn't. I don't want to touch my desktop screen, it's generally >3' from my face, I don't have 3' arms. Nor is it ergonomic for me to move my hands to and from the keyboard over and over again.

It's also a pain in the neck for me to have to explain how Windows 8 isn't the most horrible thing in the world because a relative doesn't understand that the metro full screen start menu IS the start menu. I'm tired of making excuses for Microsoft's failings. If they don't fix things I'm going to have to start moving my relatives over to Fedora. So far, it's been easier to tell them how to use it than Windows 8.

Re:Not good enough

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Just the power supply fan. My linux machine's CPU fan runs less than 50% of the time it is on. I have it set to automatically come on at an appropriate temperature. No need to run the CPU fan when the CPU isn't even at 85F.

Re:Not good enough

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Then you use more power to run the USB all the time.

How to save your company

[Sparticus789]

Give users the option to use your terrible Metro interface or have a standard Start menu. What's so hard about that?

Re:How to save your company

[Thud457]

Doesn't everybody all use touchscreens? That's all we're using?

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Give users the option to use your terrible Metro interface or have a standard Start menu. What's so hard about that?

Google Finance confirms it, Microsoft has really been tanking lately.

Re:How to save your company

[Sparticus789]

I am scared to think how terrible a remote server connection sending touchscreen data back and forth would be. I will be having nightmares for the next week. Or I will continue to use Linux servers.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

That company has a secret reason that they don't want the start button there, please understand. What's so hard about that?

The thing that's got us all pissed is that they keep changing things that don't need to be changed, but hey people, that's how the computer-world is. It's how profit is generated. We could all have a computer at our homes that completely functions with all software out there, in every way possible, but we don't. The reason is that people want to compete with other people. It's called "America". We could all grow our own food, but we don't, and if we did it'd completely fuck up the entire economy. Things are the way they are because the companies that are rendering us our daily activity-enhancing technology, are sorta at the end of the track. Moving things around and changing the names is going to be in each new release, regardless what you want. They want your money, and you want their new shit. Or you don't.

If you're pissed about it enough to suck it up and stop depending on PCs to make your day go by, then fuck it.... go outside and grow food. Otherwise, my friend, the companies that release the product can release it any way they damn well please. They can even (at this point) convince the software and hardware manufacturers to only make shit that goes along with the 'new scheme', and eventually you'll *have to* buy the new shit, just to do everyday things that you've done for years.

Food > money > computers
Food grows on trees.

heh, I posted that on slashdot.

Re:How to save your company

[bkmoore]

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

That's called design by marketing.

Re:How to save your company

[JaredOfEuropa]

Hard? Most of MS probably realise that it doesn't make sense to force a tablet UI on desktop users; the hard part is convincing the decision makers. This is probably just a few idiots convincing a handful of other idiots to follow a bad strategy. "Mobile computing is the future, we need to focus our UI design on that" + "We need to consolidate our UIs, give our users a unified experience" = Metro on the desktop fail strategy. And once something becomes a strategy it can be incredibly hard to change course, even if it leads straight off a cliff.

Re:How to save your company

[operagost]

There's been a core installation option (i.e. headless) since Windows 2008 came out. Do try to keep up.

Re:How to save your company

[RaceProUK]

Doesn't everybody all use touchscreens? That's all we're using?

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

Funny. On the Windows Server Platform page, I see info about headless servers...

Re:How to save your company

[Sperbels]

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

And a Kinect maybe.

Re:How to save your company

[drinkypoo]

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

Ironically, Windows has of late become much more friendly to GUI-less installs, and your comment is poorly timed... by several years.

Re:How to save your company

[h4rr4r]

Or as most people refer to it, relatively recently. Only in the last 5 years have they figured this out.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously sarcasm. Not sure why you link to a comparison against nasdaq instead of just the msft ticker, maybe you're just better at understanding these things than me.

All this shows is that they've managed to piggy-back the nasdaq rise this month and fluked 6% during the last half of March. If I wanted to make 23% over the same period I could have put it in bitcoin.

Re:How to save your company

[anthony_greer]

You are incorrect, Please look at Server Core, Power Shell and other tech in Server that lets you run it GUIless and more UNIX like...Your insuts are based on Windows 2000/2003 products, times changed.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not hard. Which is why free solutions such as Classic Shell exist. It's bizarre that Microsoft continues not to get it even when other people have already gone ahead and implemented what Microsoft failed to provide in the first place: the OPTION to use a "classic" UI or the new one. Not one or the other exclusively, but simply the choice. Hell, I'd even be content if the new-and-improved UI was the default, as long as the choice was there. Microsoft seems to have forgotten important things they already knew from previous versions of Windows: provide a "classic" theme. It's the same mistake they've made with the "ribbon" in Office, which some people like and others do not.

Re:How to save your company

[Trax3001BBS]

Give users the option to use your terrible Metro interface or have a standard Start menu. What's so hard about that?

Because now the XboxOne will have a start menu and it will look out of place there.
it's just a make em feel good act as within Metro apps (off the main screen) the start button is gone.

Re:How to save your company

[h4rr4r]

Only since 2008, might have even not been until R2 came out. Which is quite recently in the grand scheme of things.

Re:How to save your company

[Archangel Michael]

Screw that, a real Windows admin uses Powershell. Pointing and clicking is not "administration" if the boss can do it. Which is what Metro interface is all about.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

You're talking about powershell. Glad they finally got round to including a decent shell but how many headless windows servers have you ever seen? I've seen exactly 0. I also know exactly 0 powershell users.

Re:How to save your company

[MightyYar]

I see info about headless servers...

What's awesome about this is that they added that as an option at around the same time they improved RDP to make it not such a big deal to require a GUI anymore.

Re:How to save your company

[gmuslera]

The best way to use Windows without windows is not to use Windows.

Re:How to save your company

[tibman]

ah yes, Stock Price == Measure of Success

Re:How to save your company

[RaceProUK]

2008 is correct indeed - that's when they added the Server Core installation method. Couldn't find anything about an equivalent in 2003.

Re:How to save your company

[Toreo asesino]

Honestly, the way I see it it's a way of standarising the UI across platforms while giving users a way of falling back to the old UI too. Yes, the start menu looks different but it still works the same way and based on stats, many people rarely used it anyway. Don't like metro? Don't use it. Want your old start-menu? There's a tonne of options to get it back via 3rd-party apps in seconds.
The value of Win8 comes when you have multiple devices - with each one having a familiar UI if wanted. I've got a Win8 tablet which I barely use the desktop for and a desktop that I've uninstalled every metro app (almost) for, but my settings and the occasional app is nice to have synced over all devices. If I want to play Angry Birds on the desktop I can (and sometimes do) but as normal usage, I rare leave the desktop. 1 platform with 2 optional modes - it's not as bad as some people here want you to believe.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Server core is nice, but it's not a magically perfect command line version of windows. There are still some tasks that cannot be performed without a GUI tool. A lot of 3rd party software requires the GUI too, but some vendors do support server core installations.

The powershell interface is a huge step up but day to day administration tasks can be a real chore because there are literally tens of thousands "commandlets" and associated properties and variables. Some have names up to 30 characters long. It's obvious they took a semi-automated approach and duplicated every necessary function call the old GUI tools used. The unix shell environment is a really well thought out and organic experience in comparison.

The upshot is you can do everything with scripts, and it makes administering lots headless machines a reality.. But if you're managing a small to medium sized network you may wan to weigh your options.

With server 2012 supposedly they've improved the situation. You should be able to install the server core installation, and use the full GUI tools from a windows 8 machine remotely (This is supposed to be the recommended deployment scenario). You've been able to remotely manage to some degree in previous versions, but with server core installations it's never been quite 100% complete. Heck, the newest admin gui tools in 2012 just issue powershell commands. You can even see the command line that will be executed (and edit it manually if you want to ). Though, the older MMC based tools are still there. (And are still required for many tasks, as far as I can tell)

Re:How to save your company

[MightyYar]

Apple is dragging down some of the tech indexes (with help from Oracle). CSCO (Cisco) has similar performance and SNE (Sony) crushed them. A rising tide lifts (almost) all boats.

Re:How to save your company

[JDG1980]

Part of this is due to Microsoft's marketing department (they want to force people into Metro so they can get a cut of app sales), but another part is due to the arrogance of modern UI "experts". Received wisdom in the UI design fields is that you should never give users a choice, it just confuses them. Come up with one method that is simple enough for everyone to understand, then force everyone to use it. We will have to beat back these idiots if we ever want to have workable desktops again. Note that they have infected Ubuntu as well.

Re:How to save your company

[Entropius]

I was at a computational physics conference once and a Slashdot story about a windows supercomputer came out. Some of us looked at each other and were completely perplexed -- how do you control it? Go around to each node and click on lattice_gauge_generation.exe?

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see it being any worse than sending mouse data. In fact, it would probably be more efficient, as you would only need to send touches, and not keep track of the pointer at all times.

Re:How to save your company

[Chas]

Honestly, I've seen about half a dozen.

All but one were actual properly implemented and the last one was basically set up by some dipshit who didn't know what he was doing.

Re:How to save your company

[CAIMLAS]

Well, to be fair, MSC snap-ins are awesome; they're arguably the best high-level way to manage systems, and you can do it remotely.

And yet... MS is trying to do away with all that, eg. with Exchange, by making previously MSC features now only accessible through PowerShell... brave moves.

Re:How to save your company

[tepples]

Then what's the best way to use industry-standard applications that happen to be exclusive to Windows without Windows?

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

> how terrible a remote server connection sending touchscreen data

*and* animated backgrounds. The future is now.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

You're talking about powershell. Glad they finally got round to including a decent shell but how many headless windows servers have you ever seen? I've seen exactly 0. I also know exactly 0 powershell users.

says the guy who doesn't actually work in IT........ I haven't used any headless servers, but powershell has very widespread usage. Almost every major software vendor includes powershell hooks now so that you can script against it.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Server Core is a lame attempt at being more UNIX like. It doesn't support everything the full version supports. So no times haven't changed much.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinect would be better than touchscreen until someone solves the fingerprint problem.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw that, a real Windows admin uses Powershell. Pointing and clicking is not "administration" if the boss can do it. Which is what Metro interface is all about.

This is funny. I can't tell you how many times I got crap from Windows enthusiasts for the using such an "ancient" interface for Linux. Apparently it's now cool to use the command line. Of course this means that now linux distros will be removing the command line and replacing it with a GUI; written in Mono no less!

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Give users the option to use your terrible Metro interface or have a standard Start menu. What's so hard about that?

It's not that it's "hard".

It's that by taking away the start menu, Microsoft forces all users to adopt a touch-mobile style of interface.

The reason they are doing this is because they have a theory that this will maximize profits for them in the long term.

The complexity of this theory would be impressive even to Rube Goldberg. Here's how it goes:

1. Windows 8 desktop users will gradually get used to the Metro tiles, running apps full-screen, the mousing hot corners, and so forth.

2. These features are strongly reflected in Microsoft's new touch-mobile platforms like Windows RT.

3. Some day in the future, the desktop user will pick up a Windows touch-mobile device and find that its interface looks and feels fairly similar to their desktop experience.

4. This feeling of familiarity will somehow transform into an increased probability of purchasing said Windows touch-mobile device.

A common objection is: "But won't this disoptimize desktop workflow"? Yes it will, and Microsoft knows it. But Microsoft also knows that they have a monopoly on the desktop, and at least 95% of their customers have absolutely nowhere else to go. (If you disagree with this, then you simply don't have enough experience yet. Go talk to the CIO of a Fortune-500 company and he'll set you straight real fast.)

This is Microsoft attempting to leverage their desktop monopoly to funnel users to their mobile platform.

Obviously, it's a lame attempt that's full of serious logic holes. But that simply shows how desperate Microsoft is.

Re:How to save your company

[Falkentyne]

Yes, the start menu looks different but it still works the same way and based on stats, many people rarely used it anyway.

Which stats were those again? Did they poll everybody's Grandma? I'm not even sure my Grandma knows how to turn her computer on.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Wine. Extreme cases may require a VM. HTH,YW.

Re:How to save your company

[wolrahnaes]

And it still had major issues until Windows 2012. A few major services could not be used on Core machines, plus there was no way to "upgrade" a Core install to a full GUI or the other way around. Plus Powershell support was not the greatest back when that became available, so managing some of the services that worked fine could still be a chore.

It's nice that Microsoft still tries to build a decent server OS, but they're strung up by the fact that it's still Windows and thus they have to deal with the immense pile of legacy garbage that exists for Windows systems. Microsoft's own services may now all be good in a headless, GUI-less environment, but the third parties are a mess.

The reason *nix systems remain mostly clear of that shit is simply that they never compromised good design for user convenience at the same scale, so pretty much everything written for the platform is built to assume user-level privileges and GUIs being optional. I still to this day have software vendors telling me that their client application that just works with data from a remote system absolutely requires that all users be given Administrator privileges, and then acting like I'm the weird one when I refuse to do so. It's not like NT on the desktop is a new thing, am I unreasonable for expecting actively developed software to have been updated to 2000-era standards by now?

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

ah yes, Stock Price == Measure of Success

Depends. Posting record results last quarter is perhaps another measure.

But the steadily increasing stock price of Microsoft all through the period since the launch of Windows 8 late last year shows that the markets have a very different impression of how well Microsoft are doing - currently and expected - than the Microsoft is dying mantra on Slashdot (which is a claim starting to rival 'this is the year of Linux on the desktop' in long-term tenacity)

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

but then microsoft's plan to rule the world via the "start screen" is foiled, because given the option -- almost all people (except for that dozen or so surface owners) would use the start *menu*, not the start screen.

Re:How to save your company

[jonbryce]

Lies, damned lies and statistics. This chart http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1369944000000&chddm=517338&chls=IntervalBasedLine&cmpto=NASDAQ:AAPL&cmptdms=0&q=NASDAQ:MSFT&ntsp=0&ei=h4qnUfjaKIGGwAOwuwE tells a different story

Re:How to save your company

[Sparticus789]

Screw that, a real admin uses Linux.

FTFY

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Lies, damned lies and statistics. This chart http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1369944000000&chddm=517338&chls=IntervalBasedLine&cmpto=NASDAQ:AAPL&cmptdms=0&q=NASDAQ:MSFT&ntsp=0&ei=h4qnUfjaKIGGwAOwuwE tells a different story

Indeed, market reaction to Microsoft's business prospects after launch of Windows 8 can be clearly read from 2008 stock prices.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously sarcasm. Not sure why you link to a comparison against nasdaq instead of just the msft ticker, maybe you're just better at understanding these things than me.

All this shows is that they've managed to piggy-back the nasdaq rise this month and fluked 6% during the last half of March. If I wanted to make 23% over the same period I could have put it in bitcoin.

MSFT ticker year to date. I didn't really mean to claim it was the best investment out there, just as a counterpoint to the Microsoft is dying sentiment BTW, this is MSFT last 5 years - they are currently at 5-year high...

Re:How to save your company

[x_t0ken_407]

In some^H^H^H^H a very limited number of cases...wine/crossover+luck. Sucks to be shackled to MS :/

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

wait for it.... WOOSH

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo dawg, I heard you hate Windows so we removed Windows from your Windows so you don't have to Windows while you don't Windows.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition, Server Core (GUIless) is the recommended default when you install.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually yes, run Windows XP and use RDP to start single apps on Metro on Windows 8 and bring them to a "real" windowing system. And since malware writers will ver versioning their wares for the "Newer" windows they won't run on the old 32 bit system.. so it will become more secure with age.

Re:How to save your company

[Darinbob]

Microsoft can't even do marketing by marketing.

Re:How to save your company

[Darinbob]

Voice activation would be better, so that you can scream at it.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

HEAD EXPLODES

Re:How to save your company

[fisted]

what good is an oh-so-powerful "power shell" (it's actually a bad joke compared with proper shells) when you lack most of the programs which make it useful?

Re:How to save your company

[WuphonsReach]

Been there, tried that, went back to Linux servers. All Windows Server "core" is proving is that those who try to reinvent unix (or linux) will do it badly.

There's a lot of administrative stuff that is just opaque or impossible to do on server "core" unless you install software onto your Windows Desktop in order to manage it.

And as much as people hated the old .INI text files for configuration - they are easily readable, easily version controlled, and easy to copy/paste configurations from one system to another. Heck, with tools like FSVS, you can version control an entire Linux server to keep track of every bit of software you installed or configuration files that you touched.

Made a change and now it's not working? But can't remember what you did? Pull up the configuration file in your version control system and do a diff.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because remembering a huge string of obscure commands is sooooo much easier

No, fuck off. GUI's have their place, even on a server.

Re:How to save your company

[Myopic]

The best way to use them is to learn not to use them. Learn to use their superior counterparts that run on non-toy operating systems.

Re:How to save your company

[virgnarus]

Please do. I love the thought of seeing a bunch of sysadmins standing in front of their KVMs flailing their arms and legs around in the cold isles.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

I use to think that and, as you're suggesting, looked into Server Core.
Now I now the OP is actually right...

Re:How to save your company

[tibman]

I don't think it's about Microsoft dying or not. It's about how many people are purchasing and using their products.

Re:How to save your company

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fucking clueless batman, its time to shave your necks.

Ah crap!

[Anonymous Coward]

How am I going now to install cracked Start8 and then get payed for "reinstallation of Windows 7" on computers owned by people who weren't able to wrap their heads around Windows 8?!

Re:Ah crap!

[Anonymous Coward]

How am I going now to install cracked Start8 and then get payed for "reinstallation of Windows 7" on computers owned by people who weren't able to wrap their heads around Windows 8?!

>Start8 instead of ClassicShell
You're aware you're on /. right? Things that cost money are forbidden to speak of!

side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, windows side-by-side! Adjustable, even! Soon they'll come up with dragable frames around each app. Plus, they added a Start menu. I can't contain my joy at this innovation.

Re:side-by-side

[maugle]

The technology of 1995, today!

Re:side-by-side

[RDW]

Soon they'll come up with dragable frames around each app.

On the downside, Windows will cost $4.99 extra to cover licensing the technology from Stardock:

http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/

Re:side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

I know! It's almost as advanced as Windows 3.1!

Re:side-by-side

[houbou]

hey.. forgot about Windows 3.0? :) that's way before 95..

Re:side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like the windows are tiled, though. I can hardly wait until they can perfect the technology that will allow the windows to overlaps each other, kind of like papers on a desk.

Re:side-by-side

[Carnildo]

1995? MultiFinder came out in 1987.

Re:side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

More like 1985, I think win v2 worked like metro, just not as pretty.

Re:side-by-side

[Billlagr]

I heard that there's some kind of new computer being developed that might do just that - I thnk it's called an Amiga? Or is it a Macintosh..I don't know, all this new technology is too hard to keep up with.

Re:side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

1995, god no, this is pre- windows alpha 1.0 stuff.

Re:side-by-side

[Checklist]

I think that a large section of the market didn't really need a computer but nobody would know that until it played out in real time and somebody saw a way to get the major functionality into a tablet. Now a lot of people can do the kind of things they want at a much lower cost-and they can probably go blind more rapidly as the screen size issue is real. Nevertheless, some people still need a computer and they have never been seriously identified before. Now is the time to fix that and give us an operating system with maximum PC style user requirements addressed directly. It would be nice if we could get a serious effort instead of a mass production effort. That is why I liked the mainframe computing vendors-they focused on business. We need that kind of focus and now is the time. Windows wastes huge amounts of resources, come to think of it I recall VMS doing the same thing. I wrote a lock function that was 100 times faster than the VMS version. It almost seems as if the operating system designers think time is irrelevant and resources are infinite-time to start looking at efficiency. Time for a review of strategy.

Really?

[gstoddart]

Metro apps can be run on multiple monitors simultaneously. On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side.

I haven't seen Windows 8 yet, but if this is what they've built, I'm not surprised people have been avoiding it.

Wow, more than two applications running on any single monitor, welcome to X Windows from 30 years ago.

Was the interface really that broken?? This doesn't even sound like it's a usable environment.

Re:Really?

[JDG1980]

Was the interface really that broken?? This doesn't even sound like it's a usable environment.

The Metro interface is basically a mediocre clone of the iOS/Android interface. It's OK for tablets and smartphones, but an absurd joke on the desktop.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are only for Metro apps. I've been using Win8 at home for a while, and frankly it feels just like 7 now. My main use for the start menu on 7 was to open it and start typing the name of the app that I wanted. The Start screen in 8 functions the same way, only I hit the Windows key on my keyboard instead, which is faster anyway. Methinks the start screen is just a highly visible rallying point for people to whine about Windows.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can they even call that "Windows"?

At least take out the plural. "Microsoft Window 8"

Re:Really?

[gstoddart]

Yeah, sounds like it. The last thing I want is for my 23" monitor to be acting like it's laying out for a tiny screen.

320 pixels is about the left 4 inches of my screen.

Re:Really?

[socrplayr813]

That's referring to the 'Metro' touch screen style apps. Desktop apps still work the same as they always did.

Basically, yes, it's broken, but more because it's harder to get to the old config screens and such that you're used to. Once you're set up, it's not that different.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

Wow, more than two applications running on any single monitor, welcome to X Windows from 30 years ago.

And every version of Windows. And I do mean 'every'. Remember, Windows 8 has a split personality.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

I had half a dozen simultaneous windows on Windows 8 yesterday :P

Re:Really?

[Xest]

To be fair it's not quite that bad - this only applies to Metro apps written for the Metro interface, you can still access the same old desktop you always accessed and run Windowed applications there.

The problem is that the start menu has been replaced with the metro interface, so when you hit the windows key it fires up the metro interface and if all you want is say the calculator, then yes, it takes up the full screen, which is obviously stupid, because who the fuck ever wanted a 24" full screen 1080p simple calculator rather than the classic calc in a simple window?

A lot of the old apps are still there, windows key + r then typing calc.exe and enter will run the old one still IIRC, but that makes it about as user friendly as Linux :p

So you do still have flexible windows as you always have, the problem is Microsoft seems to not want you to use them and tries to force you towards the new Metro fixed width full screen completely-fucking-useless versions of applications instead.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

I use the start menu to lauch almost all my apps, and not by typing. It helps keep my desktop and taskbar clean, and new stuff shows up automatically. So no, Windows 8 or 8.1 will never replace Windows 7 for me.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

And the personality that shoves itself in your face is the useless one. Honestly, Windows 3.0 was more user-friendly.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

Yet I'm able to use Windows 8 without Metro shoving itself in my face. I see it for, I dunno, 10 seconds after I log in? By then I've switched to the desktop, where all my most used apps are pinned to the taskbar. The next time I see Metro is when I log in the following day.

Re:Really?

[bobbied]

It's *not* the same in many cases. Double click to open something and you are likely to be dropped in to a single screen metro app by default. Everything they do is pushing you to the metro "One screen, One app" interface which is NUTS... I am accustom to running multiple windows on multiple displays, the IDE running a compile over there, a word document that has the software requirements, Outlook showing me the latest E-mail from the boss and a browser window open to some technical documentation I'm referencing. Metro simply junk for that kind of work.

I'll bet this design looks GREAT on power point slides and glossy marketing brochures. Something like this is absolutely necessary for a cell phone, but it is junk for how I use my desktop, and it's not about missing "start" but about how the whole interface works. Metro makes sense to a resource constrained touch screen device like a small tablet or phone, but it is hugely frustrating on a desk top with a mouse. Forget to redefine all the default apps to not use metro and you will end up having it take over the whole screen and then it takes time, mouse clicks/key strokes to get back to the desktop. All this takes time and productivity suffers.

Microsoft would be well advised to make metro an OPTIONAL opt in interface for all desktops, or at least for the professional versions. I get why they want to have this, but shesh....

Re:Really?

[gstoddart]

The problem is that the start menu has been replaced with the metro interface, so when you hit the windows key it fires up the metro interface and if all you want is say the calculator, then yes, it takes up the full screen, which is obviously stupid, because who the fuck ever wanted a 24" full screen 1080p simple calculator rather than the classic calc in a simple window?

Wow ... just wow. Then I definitely will not be looking at Windows 8, because it sounds like marketing got involved and caused development to really shit the bed on this release.

This sounds like a giant leap backwards.

Re:Really?

[Vanderhoth]

Using more than one computer to achieve multiple windows is cheating.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

:P

In all seriousness, it was on one PC with two screens.

Re:Really?

[DaedylusSL]

As far as I can tell on my Win8 computer (and this is backed up by the Engadget article) there is no Metro calculator. When I open the start screen and start typing "calculator" it brings up the old Win7 calculator. How did you get a full-screen Metro one?

Re:Really?

[jader3rd]

I use the start menu to lauch almost all my apps, and not by typing. It helps keep my desktop and taskbar clean

Type is faster than hunting with a mouse and losing your flyout because you drifted too far from one side to the other. Make the computer do the searching, not you.
On a different note, why have a clean taskbar? I know I started out thinking the same in Win7, but then I challenged myself on that. I took note of which apps were open 90% of the time, taking up space on the taskbar anyway, and decided to pin them. Now they're easier to launch and it's not like the icons aren't taking up space that they weren't taking up anyway.

Re:Really?

[jones_supa]

Err...so you are fine with the Windows 8 UI if you can avoid using it as much as possible?

Re:Really?

[Vanderhoth]

I'm glad you took that in the light hearted joking way it was intended.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are only for Metro apps. I've been using Win8 at home for a while, and frankly it feels just like 7 now. My main use for the start menu on 7 was to open it and start typing the name of the app that I wanted. The Start screen in 8 functions the same way, only I hit the Windows key on my keyboard instead, which is faster anyway. Methinks the start screen is just a highly visible rallying point for people to whine about Windows.

Changing the entire screen contents when I just want to start another program causes a 'mental reset' that makes you lose your place.

I assume you've heard the "you can only remember 7 things at once" rule of thumb? Switching interfaces burdens you by throwing a "remember everything you were doing which you can't see now for some reason" item on that pile where you wouldn't have to remember that if you could still see it. This isn't new or rocket science, usability studies have known for decades that modal UIs always suck.

[I really have to wonder what the hell is going on in MS, they've either got the worst usability experts known to man or they aren't actually listening to their experts. IMHO Metro apps should be hosted in individual normal windows on the desktop instead of keeping the fullscreen crap from the tablets. That would be the way more useful and less annoying.]

Re:Really?

[socrplayr813]

Did you forget what site you were on? Or are you just trying to troll? I'm a mechanical engineer and computer geek who does just a tad more than power point. I'm saddened to say that I've almost certainly spent significantly more time on my computers in the past decade than I've spent with my family.

Anyway, of course you need to configure Windows 8 not to use the Metro apps, if you don't want to use them. That's included in my 'once you're set up' line. The good news is that all the old Windows 7 desktop apps are still there! Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with some minor changes and the Metro shit dumped on top of it. Once you figure out where things are, it takes no more than 1 minute to change the default apps back to the desktop versions and it works pretty much identically to Windows 7, even for someone like you. Windows 8 is even noticeably faster than Windows 7.

Yes, they should make the Metro apps opt-in or tablet only, but Windows 8 is hardly the travesty you're making it out to be.

Re:Really?

[10101001 10101001]

Methinks the start screen is just a highly visible rallying point for people to whine about Windows.

Like a nuclear bomb is just a critical mass detonation of tremendous energy in the form of significant heat, force, and radiation. Throwing in that "just" is rather belittling to the point. The major advantage Windows 95, as a UI, had over its predecessors (and other competing UIs of the era) was the always-on-top taskbar + start menu. And MS decided to throw those away, effectively, in Metro mode. And best of all, they're pushing people into using Metro mode to do things--the fact that you can circumvent MS's efforts doesn't change that fact.

But, yea, it's "just" a bit of whining from people being manipulated into using an inferior UI. As others have pointed out, the only reason such an inferior UI is at all accepted on tablets and smartphones is their inferior resolution. But, I'd venture a guess that in short order people with tablets will "whine" even more in time for a start menu + taskbar too as the resolution issue is a much mooter point there. This is, btw, a major reason why Windows CE sucked so much--there, it tried to shove a start menu + taskbar on a too small of a resolution screen.

I mean, let it not be said "use the best tool for the job" or "there's no such thing as a universal UI". Oh, wait... And here we see why Unity is a failure as well, with the same group of whiners.

Re:Really?

[BasharTeg]

I find it funny that nobody brings up Launchpad on OSX. Not that OSX forces Launchpad on you, but it is similar in that it's essentially a full screen start menu with an app-like interface on a desktop OS.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or follow the next gen xbox naming... Name it Window One.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

Personally, I don't mind it. It doesn't work well on a desktop, but it's not exactly hard either.

Re:Really?

[JDG1980]

it sounds like marketing got involved and caused development to really shit the bed on this release

That is exactly what happened.

Re:Really?

[Vegemeister]

A lot of the old apps are still there, windows key + r then typing calc.exe and enter will run the old one still IIRC, but that makes it about as user friendly as Linux :p

This is not so. Linux did away with file extensions for executable programs years ago. =P

Re:Really?

[Vegemeister]

The Windows key has summoned the start menu since XP at least.

Re:Really?

[ImprovOmega]

I've used a QuickLaunch bar since at least Windows 2000. It's still hackable into Win8 with standard user permissions. And typing is not faster than searching if you haven't used the app in a while and can't recall the exact name of it. Bottom line people should be allowed to access it however they prefer and not have the choice foisted mindlessly upon them by unthinking marketing.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

try it with classic shell, thats what i did for my personal machine. there are a couple of good things, its faster for one. but yeah they really did screw the pooch on this one, i can not deploy a third party interface for corporate machines, so no win8 on corporate computers, ever ( by ever i mean until win7 is re-released with the start button and menu)

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad to see this post scored so high... I'm with you, brother!

*goes back to hiding in a dark corner of /.*

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well take out the "Multitasking" and programmers will write better apps.. since its no longer an option to write multitasking applications.

Simplicity through dumbing down the operating system.

Make the operating system suit the skill level of the designers.. they really are that "bad" these days.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft 1 Window. FTFY.

Re:Really?

[cbhacking]

Or just WinKey, then type calc and hit enter. The classic calc.exe will hit before (Metro) Calculator in the search results, possibly unless you ran the new Calculator first instead.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

Uh yeah, that's exactly what's meant by "shoves itself in your face". You are forced to deal with it every time you start up Windows, whether you want to or not. My point stands.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

I pin the ones I use most. I don't have to hunt for them, as they're always in the same place. I can type pretty fast, and that's still faster. The reason for the clean taskbar is preference. I used to put everything in the quick launch but it got so full my open windows buttons were too small to read. It doesn't take but a second or two for the extra click on the start menu. As for pinning stuff, I just don't like how it works. I keep explorer pinned, but that's it.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

To clarify, I pin my most used apps to the start menu. I don't like pinning stuff to the taskbar.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

Sorry you find it so difficult to click. Once. Must be such a soul-crushing debilitating chore.

Re:Really?

[Endo13]

I hope what they're paying you is worth it.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the start menu has been replaced with the metro interface, so when you hit the windows key it fires up the metro interface and if all you want is say the calculator, then yes, it takes up the full screen, which is obviously stupid, because who the fuck ever wanted a 24" full screen 1080p simple calculator rather than the classic calc in a simple window?

I'd just like to point out that actually, typing Win>c>a>enter will bring up your standard calc.exe on your desktop. If you're used to the workflow of hitting the windows key, banging in a couple of characters and hitting enter, the workflow is absolutely identical.

I use windows 8 full time and love it. My workflow hasn't changed, and I'm not forced to use metro apps. Metro is not a replacement start menu, it is a replacement desktop. Now I don't have hundreds of icons strewn across my desktop, but instead have them all neatly organised in metro. There is literally no downside, IF you can get over yourself and give 8 a fair go.

Re:Really?

[perryizgr8]

apple knows best. when windows does something similar, fuck them they don't care about users.

Re:Really?

[RaceProUK]

I forgot it was illegal to have an opinion different to yours.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

So in other words "It works fine for me, so it's fine."

Thanks for that insightful contribution! Who keeps modding shills up anyway?

God I'm so bored

[korbulon]

Also, when was the "Bill of Borg" symbol for Microsoft replaced by "Microsoft"?

Re:God I'm so bored

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft" is actually their "Classic" logo (the new one looks like the Windows 8 start page) so it fits the story. Although come to think of it, so would the new one.

Re:God I'm so bored

[korbulon]

When Dice purchased Slashdot?

And they only paid $20M for it. I feel so cheap and dirty.

Re:God I'm so bored

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, when was the "Bill of Borg" symbol for Microsoft replaced by "Microsoft"?

In news for nerds Bill has left Microsoft in the capable hands of a Mr Ballmer.

Re:God I'm so bored

[maxwell demon]

What's troll about the above comment?

Re:God I'm so bored

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, when was the "Bill of Borg" symbol for Microsoft replaced by "Microsoft"?

When the joke started getting long in the tooth and felt roughly as clever as people spelling it "Micro$oft"?

Oh, oh, wait, I know, maybe it was when Bill wasn't at Microsoft for years and years and left Ballmer in charge (someone who is far more hilarious, I might add)?

No, I got it, it's when the precocious little tykes these days don't understand what a Borg is?

Crap, now I'm stumped. Your question implied you were expecting one answer, but there's a whole bunch of really, really good ones. I can't decide which most belittles your sense of humor, a sense which seems to be stuck in 1995 for you. You ARE aware that 1995 (the last time the Bill-Of-Borg icon was funny) was 18 years ago at this point, right?

Re:God I'm so bored

[Sparticus789]

Dice moderators have unlimited mod points, didn't ya know?

No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[jbernardo]

So, Microsoft brings back the start button but forgets the start menu. Looks like something done just to shut up the complaints, instead of listening to their users and delivering what they really wanted. Of course, they can't be seen backtracking and admitting that TIFKAM is as much of a success in the desktop as it is on smartphones...

To that, we have all the extensive integration with bing and skydrive which could/should be considered another abuse of a monopoly position. Personally, both of the services are worthless to me, but if could replace them with Google, and dropbox/copy/google drive, like I can do in android, then it might be useful. In fact, an Android style approach might get Microsoft out of monopoly abuse...

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[JDG1980]

To that, we have all the extensive integration with bing and skydrive which could/should be considered another abuse of a monopoly position.

I doubt most of Microsoft's corporate customers are thrilled with the idea of "cloud" garbage which they don't control being built into the OS by default. Hopefully the SkyDrive crap can at least be turned off through group policy.

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[Anonymous Coward]

so windows is still a monopoly? I thought you trolls were claiming "linux won" because of the millions of android phones runing linux and that means windows is no longer relevant. Oops.. I guess the argument changes whenever you want to bash microsoft. Good to know.

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[JDG1980]

Windows is still an effective monopoly on the desktop. They are lagging in the phone and tablet markets, and are trying to exploit their desktop monopoly to grab market share there. This is the core of the problem. What they're doing is morally wrong, should be illegal, and is terrible from a user experience perspective.

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better: it can be replaced with on-premises versions. For example, SharePoint Server can act as "SkyDrive Pro" for enterprise users.

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[cbhacking]

SkyDrive integration doesn't even make sense (in a conceptual sense, not a "what were they thinking" sense) unless you're signing in with a "Microsoft" account (what used to be called Live account). A business machine will be using domain accounts, not Microsoft accounts, so your whole concern is meaningless... as you'd have seen if you thought about it a bit.

If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[MBGMorden]

Except that this new "Start" menu takes you into the Metro start screen.

Staying out of Metro would be a lot easier if Microsoft gave us back the ACTUAL start menu.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

2 options: if you're a heavy start-menu user for some reason, there's plenty of OSS packages to revive the old menu. Like really, in less than 60 seconds you can have it back. Second option; pin programs to the start bar or desktop. Neither one is a big deal and against this small downside (for some) you have smaller memory footprint & a faster OS on almost all metrics. I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks have such an issue with this very small speed-bump that actually benefits many others who use it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

While I think it's idiotic that we have to do this, he's right. I set up my laptop in this manner and it's not really that bad. The ability to arrange my icons (to proper desktop apps) in the start screen is actually nice and it does feel markedly faster.

My only real complaints since getting it set up are:
1. I still have to stop and think to remember how to restart the thing.
2. Changing settings can be a nightmare since many things point you to the metro config apps instead of a proper control panel, etc. Once you get used to how to access the old config windows, this is manageable.

So... it's bearable to use it day to day, especially since I mostly just use the laptop for web browsing or to kill a little time with a game. I could tolerate working on it, but I think I'd put Debian or Mint on there if I really wanted to get things done.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[SJHillman]

In the time it took you to think up, type and submit the above post, you could have installed any of a dozen excellent start menu replacements (most are free). You can choose everything from Win 7 Start menu clones to entirely new and innovative designs with lots of options. Most of them include an option to boot directly to the desktop.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

third option : move to a better/faster/more secure OS : OSX or Linux.

I find it incredible that a self-confessed geek is having an issue with people pointing at Microsoft's HUGE mistake.

Why is it so hard for them to NOT FORCE US into their Metro crap ?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

It's true it's a change, and that general tends to be where most of the complaints I've heard come from. Still though; WinKey+C will get you to the config panel anywhere and it's 2 clicks from there. Or in PowerShell Restart-Computer does the business too. Aside from that, is there any need to regularly reboot? Same with shutdown - hit the power-button or close the lid and you're done. Implicitly commanding the OS to shutdown is kind of a 90's thing to do to be honest - would you do it on an iPad for example? Unlikely.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

"Hmmm my favourite OS start menu has been modified in ways I don't entirely appreciate; better move all my apps and data to another OS entirely" - said no-one ever.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you have a like to a trustworthy one? Downloading random executables to add something the OS manufacturer should have included is a poor substitute.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

While Classic Shell and similar provides possiblity to not use metro apps, users are still forced to go through metro UI inside desktop environment for certain tasks. I come across following: keyboard langues list, "open with" dialog, networks dialog, which btw is rediculously huge metro bar after clicking connection icon with small content inside. Why not to make every part of UI in different style then? Add own flavor to each dialog, button or whatever. How cool would be that?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[MightyYar]

Why is it so hard for them to NOT FORCE US into their Metro crap ?

The funny part is they think that the Windows Store will be a big revenue source. Because people who buy low-end gadgets are really known for their willingness to buy software...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[0123456]

Or they could just install a sane operating system instead.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ausrob]

Really? You find it incredible that self-confessed geeks would have a problem with being forced by a Microsoft design decision into losing what some people seem to consider to be fairly core usability functionality, which has existed harmoniously for over 15 years?

It's beside the point that OSS solutions exist - it's the principal of the matter. What's so hard to understand that people might not like having changes like this forced upon them? Some people may prefer not having to using third party code to restore this functionality, while others may not be able to apply OSS options because they lack the ability to update their standard operating environment (e.g. corporations, government workstations etc).

One of the major points of difference between Microsoft operating systems and others is that in most cases power users have the ability to heavily customize the Windows operating system (and other Microsoft products) without necessarily having to resort to third party code. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

"Hmmm my favourite OS start menu has been modified in ways I don't entirely appreciate; better move all my apps and data to another OS entirely" - said no-one ever.

If you think that the only problem with Win8 is the start menu, you must be using only one app at a time.
Windows 8 doesn't bring any new things you can do, but it removes a lot of things could do in the past (like use 2 windows side by side).
So keep following MS direction like the nice little sheep they want you to be. I'll keep using whatever I want to go in the direction I want.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[DoctorBit]

Because if users aren't forced to use Metro, then developers won't have to develop Metro apps, and then Microsoft won't have many apps available for download to their unpopular Windows Phone. Microsoft is trying to use its desktop OS monopoly to muscle into the relatively new phone market.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[JDG1980]

That's not the point. I shouldn't have to resort to third-party hacks to get core functionality that should be in the main OS, and was in the OS before Steve Ballmer started wishing he was Steve Jobs.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

WinKey+D and you're back to Windows 7. Or a single-click from the start-menu. Or in 8.1 you won't even have to do that.

Don't like the start-menu? Don't use it then - in seconds you've got your old menu back. Also Win8 noticeably uses less memory than 7; the shell upgrades are nice and frankly if you're stuck at "this isn't working as I want it to" then you should hand your geek-badge in because really....this isn't difficult. There's some nice things in Windows 8, but yes, some things have moved around too.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Luckyo]

Indeed, that steam and people who aren't willing to pay money...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GReaToaK_2000]

Here's the thing.
Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it.

I preferred the windows 7 design. Oh and the whole "it's (win8) smaller and faster" is crap! I finally got windows 7 installed on my hp 2000 notebook and that was tough because hp didn't want me to do it, but they finally "allowed my downgrade". Now my notebook is fast and awesome!

I like my windowed layout. I have my applications laid out a certain way when coding and I hate the way Metro UI fights you at every step of the way to do this. They want to force you to have one app visible at a time. They started this on Linux with Gnome3, which is why it sucks so much. I can't stand the layout there either.

The only way I even remotely get what I want (in the linux realm) is to use CentOS. Not even fedora is good anymore.

I don't know who came up with it or why but it sucks.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Luckyo]

The problem is that this is obviously not working. At all. And as that strategy unravels, they have to start handling the fallout from throwing their desktop OS under the bus to save the phone one.

Hence, these moves. They want to see how much of a lifeline from desktop to metro they can keep going before people start rejecting their metro on desktop.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[linebackn]

there's plenty of OSS packages to revive the old menu. Like really, in less than 60 seconds you can have it back.

Which is great for a few personal machines that are under your control, but when you have to deal with larger numbers of machines, or machines that are not under your control, installing third party software or making significant changes to system options is not feasible. In fact, you can easily get in to big trouble for doing so.

A proper "start" menu is something a large number of people need and expect from Microsoft Windows. So it doesn't it make sense to include one by default?

Now, if only they had removed Internet Explorer instead of the Start menu...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GodInHell]

Windows 8 doesn't bring any new things you can do, but it removes a lot of things could do in the past (like use 2 windows side by side).

This statement contradicts reality in a way I find both amusing and disturbing. Have you /used/ the Win8 desktop?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[MightyYar]

If Microsoft aspires to be the size of Valve (that is, somewhere around 400 employees and perhaps $2 billion in market value), then more power to them. I suspect they are looking more toward Apple. People who buy Apple stuff are looser with their money. This was true with Macs, iPods, and now phones and tablets. Kudos to MS for trying for the high-end initially, but they are destined to target market share - it's in their DNA.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

I understand people don't like change, which Windows 8 certainly is, but what I don't get is why some self-confessed-geeks can't seem to see how that in literally seconds you're back to the comfortable old way of using the OS while also enjoying the benefits of 8 over 7 - the speed and memory-footprint improvements must surely be worth more than the 1-2 minutes of customisation Win8 takes if you want ye olde Win7 look & feel back.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Very small speed bump??? Try a Mt. Everest sized trash heap...

And I guarantee I have more geek in my pinky than you have in your body. And it's self professed, not confessed. I bet they have a very cute little dictionary applet for that to pin right to your desktop.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

Implicitly commanding the OS to shutdown is kind of a 90's thing to do to be honest

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a 90s thing, but you're right that it's not usually necessary. 95% of the time, I just close the lid and let it hibernate (it takes approximately 1 second longer to resume from hibernate than from sleep - they really did improve things nicely on that front).

That said, I'm hardly a luddite that can't be arsed to learn things. The shut down and restart stuff mostly comes from updates or from my incessant fiddling. I'm constantly trying new software and experimenting with better ways to set up my gadgets and I find Microsoft's placement of the shutdown commands idiotic. People, especially averages joes, should not have to learn new key combinations or swipe/hot corner to access something so common. By all means, include those as options if you like, but it should be in plain view. When my most common support question is 'how do I shut down?', that's just sad.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Entropius]

It sort of was for me. Before my default paradigm on my home machine was "use windows by default and KDE to get work done"; now it's "KDE by default and windows to play games".

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

So keep following MS direction like the nice little sheep they want you to be. I'll keep using whatever I want to go in the direction I want.

So when you do whatever you want, you're making up your own mind. But when someone else does whatever they want, they're sheep. Very interesting...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ausrob]

Did you actually read my comment?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[WaffleMonster]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

Exactly, why is this so hard for MS to figure out? All they need to do is give people an option to turn the metro shit off.

A real start menu, startup to desktop and settings to disable goddamn jestures must be kids play next to writing a kernel driver or something. Why the fuck is it so hard to get thru MS's goddamn head that not all of us use a computer just for email and facebook? Fin idiots.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[tepples]

It's called Classic Shell, and the executable parts are free software under the MIT license.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[tepples]

Or they could just install a sane operating system instead.

Please see my other comment.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Gertlex]

Maybe you have a like to a trustworthy one? Downloading random executables to add something the OS manufacturer should have included is a poor substitute.

I'll go ahead and recommend Classic Shell. It's nerd-gasm-ly customizable. It's even worth using on Windows 7, too.

http://www.classicshell.net/

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks have such an issue with this very small speed-bump

Sometimes a horrible design decision has an easy workaround. But just because the workaround is easy doesn't mean that the design decision was any less horrible.

Because we're "geeks", we care first and foremost about the design. Our objection is so strong because the design error is so bad.

We are not objecting to the "difficulty" of downloading and installing a 3rd-party start menu. That would be silly.

We are objecting to Microsoft deliberately omitting a feature that is crucial to the UI. Specifically, it is crucial to the "discoverability" of the system.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the major points of difference between Microsoft operating systems and others is that in most cases power users have the ability to heavily customize the Windows operating system (and other Microsoft products) without necessarily having to resort to third party code. What's so difficult to understand about that?

To be fair, it is rather difficult to "understand" something that isn't quite true.

Want multiple desktops in Windows? Third-party code.
Window decorations to look like OS X, BeOS, Motif, etc.? Third-party code.
Focus-follows-mouse? No need for TweakUI anymore, you can now do it through undocumented registry hacks.

It's beside the point that OSS solutions exist - it's the principal of the matter.

You're absolutely right about that. But the principle isn't that a vendor should cater to one subset of their users over others. Instead the principle playing out here is that closed-source software will always have the ability to change Your Whole Professional Life if that is what the software's copyright holder believes will help their bottom line. Any "power user" that is extensively dependent on a proprietary stack is always only one release away from becoming next year's PEBKAC.

The software world is littered with thousands of awesome proprietary products that paid handsomely for years but are now dead ends: VB6, NetWare, VMS, PowerBuilder, Delphi, dBase, FoxPro, to name just a few. And it's fine to make a living on it. But any decent self-confessed geek should have a backup plan for the day their platform is yanked out from under them.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

Yes, it was basically "it's changed - I don't like it". Same thing happened between 3.11 and Win95 and despite even less options to revert back, the world kept turning. Please read mine.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here, let me weld the doors to your car shut and make you crawl through the window. Don't worry, if you don't like my dumb design, feel free to download my free cutting torch app to fix your doors that I welded shut. My cutting torch app might have a couple of bugs, install some ad-ware, maybe install the Welder's Search Toolbar, but don't mind them.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

frankly if you're stuck at "this isn't working as I want it to" then you should hand your geek-badge in because really....this isn't difficult.

Frankly, if you can't grab the concept of "I need to make it work the way I want, and not how MS marketing dep wants it to work", I guess you don't have a geek-badge to hand-off.
I've used EVERY windows version since version 1, and Win8 is the first version ever that I can't stand.
I've now moved to Linux with KDE, where I can actually make it work the way I want. And believe it or not, I can actually have more than one window open at the same time !
So keep using your toy OS and I will keep using mine that actually tries really hard to not be in my way while I work.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

Heh, if you think Win8 can't open more than one Window at a time then that's all I need to know about following this discussion up :)

I wish you all the best with KDE!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[danomac]

If the entire UI changes dramatically (as it did in Windows 8) you have to relearn the whole damn interface anyway. It's actually the best time to switch. You're going to have to learn something new regardless of what you do!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Score Whore]

Frankly, if you don't know the difference between needs and wants you've got bigger problems than which OS your computer is running.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[jader3rd]

I don't know who came up with it or why but it sucks.

Usability experts did. They heard about people complaining about all of the little distractions and lost productivity that was coming from the computing experience and did studies about it. They discovered that people are more productive with only one or two programs showing on the screen at a time. OS creators read the studies and found them to be accurate; so they've implemented what the studies have found. The problem now is that even if we're more productive with one or two windows we either a) don't feel like we're more productive b) don't like it anyway c) like all of the little distractions that make us less productive. There are times in Windows 8 when I'm using the Metro apps, and it feels so close to being on-par productive, but it's not quite there. If they could somehow enforce that all text written to the screen must be copy/pasteable the Metro world might be feasible; but it's not there yet.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[JDG1980]

Because if users aren't forced to use Metro, then developers won't have to develop Metro apps, and then Microsoft won't have many apps available for download to their unpopular Windows Phone. Microsoft is trying to use its desktop OS monopoly to muscle into the relatively new phone market.

Save us, European Union, you're our only hope.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

Quoted from the article : "On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side"

Nothing more to say !

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Merk42]

You expect us to download 3rd party software to tweak our UI to fit our needs?
No no, we'll switch to Linux, it lets us download 3rd party software to tweak the UI to fit our needs!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called Microsoft Windows 1.0 i in 1992 Microsoft dispised the idea of "Overlapping Windows" because Apple included those in the MacIntosh operating system based on Xerox Parc research.

Later they "gave in" and introduced "Overlapping Windows" in Windows 2.0

Microsoft is simply doomed to memory failure and repeating the past.

The "New" coders and Marketing managers never fought this battle, so they are repeating it [again].

It's like Battlestar Galactica all over again.. 'all of this has happened before, it will happen again...'

Re:If you don't like metro...

[__aasdno7518]

Here's the thing. Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it.

.

Same here..If i wanted a Mac,I'd get one. I've used various distros for years and to see how the de has morphed into something incomprehensible is more than a little disturbing. The Windows users are as pissed as the Ubuntu users..At least Windows gave half an inch...They still need to go some to make their users happy..meanwhile,Shuttleworth won't give even as much as Microsoft has.So for now,it's classic Gnome for me.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[devent]

You should try KDE it's pretty much what you like: the old Windows desktop with start button, task bar, etc.
I'm using Fedora currently with KDE. But you can try OpenSuse or Mandriva.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[KiloByte]

Metro shows its ugly head in far more places than just the start menu. Update notifications and interface, jinxes bar, etc, etc.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Wookact]

I have yet to find anyone that actually enjoys the metro screen. Who actually benefits from this over the traditional star menu?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[vux984]

On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side

What? That's applies strictly to metro apps. And I don't know anybody who uses those on a desktop, except for maybe the Netflix one.

This is a typical windows 8 desktop:

http://blogs.sitepointstatic.com/images/tech/759-windows-8-desktop-big.jpg

The only tell is the missing start button.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Joce640k]

What's a "WinKey"? I don't think my model M has one of those.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Wookact]

You fail to understand this isn't about me, it is about my customers. I do not want to have to teach Computer 101 to people who have been doing things a certain way for years.

That is a VERY valid complaint, and no telling me to turn in my geek card will not fly here. You want to defend MS's move, then solve the issue of geeks having to reteach everyone else how things work.

What's that there is no easy solution? Then MS's move was ill conceived.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[citylivin]

"if you're a heavy start-menu user for some reason,"

Yes, for some crazy reason. Because it has been the way to run applications for 18 years.

" I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks have such an issue with this very small speed-bump"

Oh for the luxury of having only myself to worry about and support! Not the hundreds of people I currently have to consider at work, friends, family, etc who have all been doing something a certain way and for NO GOOD REASON, microsoft has decided to change. Fuck design. Buy a mac if you want some design driven window manager. Most people use computers to get shit done, not dick around with new user interface experiments solely designed to sell more phones for microsoft.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there was some way to get into the desktop on a Windows 8 machine... Oh wait, there is!

Just install non-metro versions of apps like you have been before Windows 8?

I just got Windows 8, coming from XP! I spend almost all my time in desktop mode. I see very little difference in how I actually use it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[efitton]

I loved KDE. KDE 3. KDE 4 I tried for years but the loss of features and the difficulty configuring it made me give up. I don't want the Windows 7 Taskbar, I want the KDE 3 Kasbar, but the Windows 7 makes me only mourn for it once a week as opposed to every second that I use a DE on Linux.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Stormwatch]

Why is it so hard for them to NOT FORCE US into their Metro crap ?

I think Microsoft really bet the farm on the Surface. With tablets outselling PCs, they think it's the future. This crap is part of the gamble.

See, they had been advocating the "tablet PC" since the XP days, with no success. Suddenly the iPad was huge, and they think: "We were right all along, people want tablets. We just have to push for ours harder." Well, fine. But their idea is that putting the same interface everywhere will get people to go for whatever system with which they are familiar. Gee, then why was no one interested when they did those awful tablets with XP?

The system itself was the problem, twice: as they just put a full desktop OS on a portable, not a slim one like Palm or Newton, the hardware had to be a full notebook PC with some touch junk tacked on. So it was expensive, heavy, and ran hot. Now, the Surface remains expensive, but it is light and runs cool enough, right? But the other problem was the fact that XP's interface was not adequate for tablets. So this time they are smart enough create this new interface, purportedly good for tablets. Meaning it is no longer adequate for the desktop. And they put it there anyway. Same mistake, only backwards.

And how did that familiarity thing work? Well, they changed everything, so nobody was familiar with Windows 8 anyway!

Apple knew better: different devices need different interfaces.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

The last time I tried Linux (a week ago) it couldn't even output sound over HDMI without crawling through a config file and typing a bunch of stuff in. That was with the newest version of Mint that has all the goodies preinstalled.

I installed win 8 on the same hardware and it worked out of the box without any configuration. None. Every single driver was detected and I got sound from my HDMI output on the first try.

So - why not Linux? Well, Linux wasn't ready when I needed it and Windows 8 was.

Go ahead and flame me. I'm just pointing out Linux's HUGE mistake - the inability to "just work" when I want it to - after some decade of development.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Wookact]

I shouldn't have to do that on all of my customers computers.

This was core functionality that was removed, and just because it can be patched does not mean it was OK to remove it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[nine-times]

Well it is a little more annoying than you're making it out to be. Not only does the Start Menu bring you back into Metro, but a lot of the default applications are Metro apps. It's nothing that can't be dealt with, but it's a bit of a pain.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

>This statement contradicts reality in a way I find both amusing and disturbing. Have you /used/ the Win8 desktop?

Not often, because they're forced to use Win8 Metro instead.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[linuxgurugamer]

You should try Ubuntu or Fedora. Both are very good desktop machines, and from my experience, install sound drivers without any manual config for a large number of sound systems.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[AmiMoJo]

Metro makes sense when you realize that it just tidies up what most people had before - a desktop full of program icons placed in order of installation. At least Metro makes them easier to organize into groups.

I don't like it either, but unfortunately us nerds are in a very small minority. The IT department always puts icons for programs on the desktop because most of their users don't appear to even know about the start menu. You think I'm exaggerating, but just ask anyone working with untrained users.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Stormwatch]

People already are moving: casual users now just get tablets, usually running Android or iOS. Even if they also have a PC, they might as well run anything, as they have so little investment on Windows programs.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[UltraZelda64]

Because Microsoft is right, their paying (gouged) customers are always wrong; they know what you want, you don't; and if you don't like it, then you can suck their micro-soft cock. For that is The Microsoft Way.

Want a decent "desktop" operating system that doesn't try to deprecate, you know, the whole desktop aspect of the system? Look elsewhere--because ever since Windows 8, Microsoft is not the provider of such a system. In fact, it's clear that they want the traditional "desktop" dead just as badly as they want Windows XP dead.

Microsoft *knows* damn well what people want when they ask for the "Start menu," and yet they're careful to only acknowledge the "Start button." Which, roughly translated into more detail, is short for: "Sorry, but fuck you all. No, we're not bringing it back, now here, take this Metro UI as we ram it down your throat, even easier to access because it is where your beloved menu button was. Here's a "button" where the Start button was just to pacify you with the illusion that we actually give a shit. Now shut up."

Moral of the story: If you are on an older version of Windows, now's a good time to set up a backup plan to jump ship eventually, because if you want a real desktop, Microsoft is fading into history as a provider of one.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Vanderhoth]

Usability experts did

They most certainly didn't.

Every article on Windows 8 UI design since it was released discusses how every usability convention was broken. If flies in the face of every human computer interaction concept I've ever heard of.

Marketers who thought it looked cool developed the windows 8 UI, not usability experts.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ConceptJunkie]

It's Microsoft's version of the Flower Key, or the Meta key, or whatever you want to call it. They created it because their mad usability skillz required changing the standard keyboard. And from what I've read about Windows 8, they've pretty much given up on actually improving the GUI because the first response to anyone complaining about Windows 8 is to rattle off the keyboard shortcuts you need to know in order to actually use it. Keyboard shortcuts are always good to have, but when they become a primary way of describing how to do something, I think you need to reconsider your GUI design.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[geekboybt]

The only tell? You mean, besides the ugly-as-sin window controls that look like a wireframe work in progress rather than a finished product?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Vanderhoth]

Here's the nice thing about Ubuntu, if you don't like the standard DE, get another. It's super easy from the command line sudo apt-get install <whatever-de-you-want-here> and there's a DE for any setup anyone at any level could require. The standard DE is for the lowest common denominator, unless you like it, to help ease people in.

I think of it like Internet Explorer, all it's good for is to download another browser.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ConceptJunkie]

The problem with Windows these days is that everything they change about has an immediately obvious reason as to why the change will benefit Microsoft (or at least they hope it will) and often has little or no benefit to the customer. Metro? It serves no purpose other than to try to create a market of apps from which MS can skim 30% off the top like Apple. Metro also allows MS to do less work because it can be used across different platforms, despite only being (ostensibly) appropriate for a small fraction of them. Microsoft has always tried to work towards the goal of one gargantuan monolithic OS that runs on all hardware, despite the fact that that has never been a good design strategy and probably never will be. Apple never fell into this trap and Linux succeeds by being a rock-solid incredibly flexible _kernel_ but not foisting a massive and bloated application layer on everything from a phone to a supercomputer. I can appreciate that Microsoft wants to maintain their revenue while having to do as little work as possible, but that seems to be the only thing criterion driving any of their designs any more. The business of propping up the monopoly they created in the 80s and early 90s is running out of steam. Some day, they might realize it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[unrtst]

Quoted from the article : "On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side"

Nothing more to say !

Nothing more except, "Yee gads! I had no idea Windows 8 metro interface was so bad!"

What's next for 8.2? Maybe introducing overlapping windows? More than two windows at a time?

FWIW, I'm not looking for a solution or work around. I'm sure there's some way to get it to do stuff that Windows was doing since 3.1. I'm just surprised these are being touted as new features/improvements to the latest and greatest interface they have.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ConceptJunkie]

Ballmer wishes he were Jobs? Gee, from his performance I always thought he wished he were Mussolini.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait.. You've managed to stand every other Windows OS, including Windows... ME?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ConceptJunkie]

I don't know where this "one second" nonsense comes from. Every Windows 7 machine I've ever used takes from tens of seconds to a minute or more to become usable after hibernate, and sometimes that long when coming out of sleep. I avoid both as much as possible.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

I did not say that I used them extensively. I tried ME and avoided it because it was so unstable and a lot of drivers where missing.
I tried Vista but could not stand how slow it was.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[21mhz]

Man, how did it get so bad that a poorly designed clusterfuck of a menu is considered core OS functionality.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[steelfood]

Someone really ought to do some data mining to see how interest in Linux (via page views and downloads) has been affected by Windows 8.

I'm certain that by the end of this year, when Windows 7 is finally phased out, we will know for certain.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Vegemeister]

it takes approximately 1 second longer to resume from hibernate than from sleep

Are you sure it's actually resuming from hibernation and not hybrid suspend? Even with a fast SSD, reading a moderately sized memory dump back in could take more than 10 seconds.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[lgw]

Windows 8 doesn't bring any new things you can do, but it removes a lot of things could do in the past (like use 2 windows side by side).

What? If you're using the desktop, you certainly can, and the snap-to-half-screen thing still works.

I want my start menu back, but my open source start menu is less change than an open source OS would be.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[lgw]

I've used EVERY windows version since version 1, and Win8 is the first version ever that I can't stand.

Heh, given this is "Windowser" I'm inclined to believe him.

So keep using your toy OS and I will keep using mine that actually tries really hard to not be in my way while I work.

I keep meaning to play with Mint, but my laziness finds it less work to apply some open source fixes to Win8 than learn a new OS.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Seconded, I've used that to turn a crippled netbook with windows basic into a more or less fully functional machine.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[lgw]

Sound over HDMI is a different driver - it's a vid card driver, really. There was a window where instead of a driver you had a hardware solution where you'd run a pair of wires from a motherboard jumper to a vid card jumper to get HDMI sound - never did get that to work. Now vid cards support audio normally through the PCI interface, but that naturally takes a driver (totally district from sound card drivers). Given the history of mediocre closed-source-only drivers for Linux for some vid cards, I could well believe people are still having problems there.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if users aren't forced to use Metro, then developers won't have to develop Metro apps, and then Microsoft won't have many apps available for download to their unpopular Windows Phone. Microsoft is trying to use its desktop OS monopoly to muscle into the relatively new phone market.

TRANSLATION: Microsoft's failure in the smartphone market is likely to have some sort of impact on their bottom line in a few decades. Here is their plan to address this:

Step 1: Sabotage their core operating system business so nobody wants to use it either.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

repeat after me

This is Windows. I shouldn't have to mess around with 3rd party shell extensions, modifiers, plugins, and other assorted junk. The Wimp principle is great when it comes to multitasking operating systems for workstations. Tablets may be good for watching some netflix or checking facebook, but when you need to pop on Autocad, photoshop, or an IDE, a tablet is absolutely terrible. Metro is also awful from a gaming perspective because it rams xbox live down your throat, making legacy games for windows apps, uplay, origin, and most importantly Steam second class citizens.

For those of us who use our PCs to work hard and play hard, metro is just insulting. If broadcom would get off it's ass and make a 802.11ac driver for linux, i wouldn't even use windows 8.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should we have to jump through hoops just to be able to use the operating system effectively ? Microsoft should provide an option to turn metro on or off much like it did with UAC.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

it takes approximately 1 second longer to resume from hibernate than from sleep

Are you sure it's actually resuming from hibernation and not hybrid suspend? Even with a fast SSD, reading a moderately sized memory dump back in could take more than 10 seconds.

I did set it to hibernate rather than suspend and I believe I turned off hybrid sleep, though it's been a while and I'm not 100% sure. It is conceivable they pulled some funny business with the naming of things. That said, they did quite a bit of work on fast boot, hibernate, and resume for Win8. Good post about it here (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx).

All that aside, my laptop boots ridiculously quickly, faster than anything else I've worked with. I haven't timed it, but pressing the power button to the login screen is definitely less than 10 seconds and from login to desktop is nearly instantaneous. Whether the credit should go to the hardware or software, I can't say for sure because it's my only Win8 install.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

...before Steve Ballmer started wishing he was Steve Jobs.

dead Steve Jobs or alive Steve Jobs?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's part of the grand orwellian project to create a culture where users believe they have no control over their own devices and that they need to pay for everything they want their device to do.

I wish I were exaggerating.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[vux984]

You mean, besides the ugly-as-sin window controls that look like a wireframe work in progress rather than a finished product?

That's less of a tell than it could be. Its better looking than Windows 7 basic,... really it pretty much IS Windows 7 basic without rounded corners, and flat close/minimize/restore boxes.

Fair enough, it's also a Windows 8 tell, but less so since its just theme, and there are plenty of windows 8 themes for Windows 7... but they all retain a start button. (albeit with the monochrome perspective logo) which i assume is what it will be in 8.1 too. At which point, 8.1 will be indistinguisable from someone using 7 with an 8 skin. (at least until they open the start screen or control panels etc.)

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

> And believe it or not, I can actually have more than one window open at the same time !

Sorry, I don't believe that you actually used Windows 8 at all. If you had, you'd know that you can avoid using the Metro UI almost completely, apart from some initial configuration. Taking into account how most of the applications now are Desktop ones anyway which in Windows behaves exactly like in Windows 7, it's a pretty good indicator that you have completely no idea of what you're talking about.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

> With tablets outselling PCs, they think it's the future.

It is not just that mobile devices are the future and Microsoft have already missed the bus, but with Windows Phone, Metro and XBox One the only software outlet is MS and they will take 30% of the revenue. The future as they see it is subscriptions and taking a cut of _all_ software sales. They also hope to monetize the [Metro] desktop with advertising.

If they don't force Metro down your throats (not mine) then they can never get to being the sole outlet for your spending.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Want multiple desktops in Windows? Third-party code.

Not since XP.

Focus-follows-mouse? No need for TweakUI anymore, you can now do it through undocumented registry hacks.

Also first party.

You seem to confuse "easy to set" and "power users have the ability to heavily customize windows without resorting to 3rd part code.

But any decent self-confessed geek should have a backup plan for the day their platform is yanked out from under them.

Or, you could just not blindly install every upgrade offered to you.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[rastos1]

For MS it often does not matter that the new idea does not catch up. Initially. Where the "initially" period can be pretty long (i.e. several years). They can just keep throwing money at it until the world adapts to them. That's what abusing the dominant position on the market is all about.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Pentium100]

Also, many people who have to use Win8 (because their computer came with it) and hate it may not know about classic shell. Some even ask for a computer with Win8 and then regret it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a "WinKey"?

A type of House Elf

Re:If you don't like metro...

[sootman]

> Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and
> many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac
> like and I personally don't like it.

Actually, they're iOS-like. The Mac itself still has a proper desktop windowing system.

> I don't know who came up with it or why but it sucks.

Apple came up with iOS, and then when it got popular, for some reason Desktop guys thought it would be a good idea to make their desktops look like this popular new thing. Again, it's worth pointing out that even Apple doesn't do that. (OS X now takes some cues from iOS, but they haven't totally changed over to that style.)

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ctrl-Esc.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Pausanias]

The ones I found aren't OSS and cost $3-$5. Are we really crossing over to the OS X realm of finding paid tweaks to provide much needed system functionality?

Do these tweaks really restore the FULL start menu? Including the part of it that searches inside your documents and launches the appropriate software to read the documents when clicked on or hit return?

Oh wait, do I really want to trust some third party to search inside my documents? In Win7, it was Microsoft that searched inside the documents and despite all their faults I semi-trusted Microsoft to respect my privacy... but now whoever runs some random tweak is searching inside my files?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

frankly if you're stuck at "this isn't working as I want it to" then you should hand your geek-badge in because really....this isn't difficult.

Given that statement, which one of these applies? The tool works for me or I work for the tool.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[X.25]

I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks have such an issue with this very small speed-bump that actually benefits many others who use it.

It benefits who, exactly?

Random Windows 8 tablet user?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

But Windows 8 Metro, Windows RT Metro, and Windows Phone 8 Metro apps are all different.

Microsoft didn't take the obvious step and make all Metro apps work on all of their platforms. Customers can't just buy "Angry Birds Metro" and expect to play the same game on their phone, their Surface RT tablet, their desktop, and their XBox One. Developers have to make and support four different versions of their app with four different code bases. It sucks for developers, and it sucks for customers.

And perhaps most important, despite all the empty words that Microsoft uses about "the cloud", customers can't just walk into any internet cafe in the world, log into "https://windows8.com/", and just start using all of their purchased Metro applications in a safe IE 10 Sandbox.

Instead of trying to figure out how to make the next generation of operating systems, Microsoft is just trying to figure out how to squeeze as much cash as they can out of the last generation. It's reached the point where Windows is OK as a server operating system on a VM farm, but nobody wants to use it on the desktop anymore. They're about 15 years behind Sun at this point, and barreling toward irrelevance.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

That's not their goal. Their primary goal is to retrain all customers to be more compliant.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks continue to defend Microsoft's decisions to remove customer decisions and customization.
What about those who are not self-confessed geeks, how is grandma supposed to figure this stuff out?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

"Hmm, my least favorite OS has decided to completely screw with me again for no discernable reason."

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

Microsoft doesn't have to defend themselves here. They have an army of power user fans who will recite a list of obscure work arounds for any feature that was removed.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

It's not listed in Microsoft's propaganda, but earlier reports indicated that you'd have to have a Windows Account to be able to even get the 8.1 update. It's just one more thing they want everyone to sign up for, which gets everyone one step closer to being in the store itself.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

Metro is not less work. Microsoft will have to support both Metro AND the desktop. They can not possibly be so naive as to think that the desktop is dead. The goal is more about making Windows phones/tablets seem less foreign to desktop users, and to drive massive numbers of eyeballs into their store.

It's all silly. People use computers to get work done, and that means using software more substantial than walled garden applets.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

But only sales for Metro apps. Those are all miniature wannabe applications, just like the fluff on phones. For the desktop the users aren't going to be buying $1.99 apps to get work done, they're going to want full blown applications, SAP R/3 clients, Photoshop, Office, Visual Studio, Mathematica, CAD, etc.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

The point being is why should someone have to find a 3rd party tool for what was previously built into the OS and already working? Because some UX designer says so? I would like to see more than anecdotal evidence backing up such - call me 'old school'.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

These programs exist mostly because Microsoft ignored the customers and removed the feature. In other words, Windows 8 has a massive flaw, and the fact that some companies will sell you utilities to fix the flaw does not mean the flaw should be forgotten or forgiven.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[LodCrappo]

"With tablets outselling PCs"

What?

Tablets are *not* outselling PCs. Not even close.

There are some projections that by year 2015 they might surpass PCs, but that is mostly just speculation.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Darinbob]

Just like Windows 7 you can ignore the start meny most of the time. But the few times that you want it then it will be painfully obvious that it's missing. No amount of "just start typing a phrase and Windows will magically find the app you need" hand waving by fans will get around the fact that Start Menu was useful. The point of Start Menu was not necessarily be something you use every 5 minutes, of course most users will have shortcut icons for things or pin icons, this is nothing new. The point was that when you needed to do something unfamiliar, or to find an application that you did not create a shortcut for, there was one easy to use and easy to navigate way to find it. Start Menu was and is easier to use than the clumsy Metro replacement.

No one should ever defend or stand up for Microsoft's massive blunder here. Yes, there are ways around this blunder and it can be helpful to assist users with this, but these fans take it too far and are being apologists for Microsoft.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[UnknownSoldier]

> The Mac itself still mostly has a proper desktop windowing system.

* No title-bar roll ups
* Title bar still ways ALL the horizontal window width space. See BeOS "tab" window title if you want to the PERFECT window title (hold shift to drag the window title ALONG the top of the window)
* Close button is grouped with minimize, maximize buttons (at least they are color coded with good colors)

OSX has nice THIN 1 pixel black border around windows. Win8 has this fugly 8 pixel window border. Win8 looks FAR worse then PreSkool WinXP. At least with WinXP and Win7 you can adjust the window border thickness.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side

What? That's applies strictly to metro apps. And I don't know anybody who uses those on a desktop, except for maybe the Netflix one.

This is a typical windows 8 desktop:

http://blogs.sitepointstatic.com/images/tech/759-windows-8-desktop-big.jpg

The only tell is the missing start button.

And the lame-ass ribbon interface for Explorer...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Psyborgue]

Nvidia + HDMI here on Linux. I have minor issues when resuming from a suspend which requires me to kill my X session / log out in order to get 5.1 audio back (switches to 2.0 for some reason). Otherwise it works fine. DTS HD and Master Audio also works with XBMC over hdmi. In Windows on the same box I get a bluescreen when I try that. I also get a bluescreen in Windows when I try and use 24/192 over 5.1. So it's a mixed bag. The Intel HDMI built into the motherboard seems to work fine, as does the integrated Realtek chipset.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Psyborgue]

I have a Mac. Metro is in no way whatsoever Mac-like. Unity obviously has taken some influence from the dock, menu system, but it also borrows window snapping and some other stuff from prior versions of windows.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Psyborgue]

You don't have to switch distros to change your window manager.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

However, you can bet that every article on 8.1 will be how MS turned this around and is now saved.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

I haven't timed it, but pressing the power button to the login screen is definitely less than 10 seconds and from login to desktop is nearly instantaneous

This was a typo, should have said 20, but anyway...

Just timed it booting, mostly out of curiosity. Boot time after shutting down was 14 seconds from power button to login screen. I didn't time resume from hibernate (was a bit more than 1 second longer than sleep) but it really is much faster than you'd expect, and significantly faster than a normal boot.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

"In the linux realm" you can get whatever you want because your window manager is not dependent on your distribution. My operating system didn't even come with a window manager, and now I'm talking to you through awesomeWM because tiling is just the functionality I want 99% of the time, and when I don't it has a fairly robust floating window capacity as well. You are not stuck with anything, and you don't have to install a different OS to get your GUI looking different.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[lgw]

Out of curiosity, what version of Windows? Post-XP, I haven't seen a bluescreen unless I was playing the "how much can I overclock before I get a bluescreen" game.

I hate the 175 MB "driver" that NVidia provides for Windows, but I've never seen it bluescreen.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Totenglocke]

The problem with their thinking is that tablet sales are outselling PC sales because everyone already has a PC and due to the power of modern hardware, you don't need a new PC every three years. Most people don't have a tablet and if they do have one, the hardware is improving so fast that they'll want to buy a new one after a couple of years.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[dbIII]

After reading that I'm astonished that win8 was allowed out the door initially without it. Touch screen and full screen apps - sound like somebody had a fetish for the old green screen terminals with a light pen.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[dbIII]

I'll chime in. Only for a few seconds when I was getting shown some new lenovo hardware - I opened up a weather app and could not find any way to close it after poking all over the screen so handed the tablet back. It seemed like a step backwards from a dodgy phone interface to me. It may be very good for all I know but it is certainly not the "intuitive" interface that salesfolk pretend it is.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[vux984]

And the lame-ass ribbon interface for Explorer...

Lol, good call. I should have found a screenshot just showing some generic Office and Browser windows. The OS-specific version of explorer is definitely another giveaway.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[toddestan]

You mean other than the solid-color window frames that look even crappier than Windows 7 with Aero turned off?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Luckyo]

Thing is, this isn't about "throwing money". This is about the very dominance they have in the market slipping away as market expands beyond desktop while staying "computer". This causes them to naturally lose dominance of the market. Their solution is to pop a lifeline between their desktop OS (which has a dominant position in desktop market) and mobile OS (which is nonexistent and on life support). The obvious effect is that one is strengthened and other is weakened by this. However in this particular case their mobile OS is rejected so badly that it effectively infects the desktop OS through the metro lifeline while mobile is not really getting healthier in return. And if desktop OS starts to tank, they have no dominant market position to fall back to, because their desktop OS is the source of that dominant position.

It's a really nasty situation for microsoft, and I'm rather surprised that they didn't start corrective movements on desktop sooner. It's one thing to prop the mobile and try to keep the total market dominance by trying to uplift the mobile OS, but to risk the desktop OS that is very healthy and widely used is a very high stakes game and inherently dangerous to their survival.

It goes to show just how much importance MS is placing on their success in the mobile.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[dbIII]

Either you misunderstood the question about multiple desktops instead of screens or have not used the useless and buggy "powertoy" (the MS name, not an insult) that attempted to deliver it, failed and was abandoned to the point where it won't even start on newer versions.
Even multiple screens get to be a bit of a nightmare without third party tools once you go beyond the most simple case. Cloning two sets of two screens from two cards involves a lot of cable swapping to trick the software into giving you the configuration you want. Meanwhile the third party tools just work.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[dbIII]

I stuck E17 on fedora to make that usable, and apparently it's going to be built into fedora20.
Meanwhile fluxbox and a pile of others are fast, easy to use, look a lot like the older gnome and easy to install.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[gagol]

If you rely solely on Windows for your computing needs, please leave your geek card at the door on your way out ;-) Seriously, l went XFCE 5 years ago, and don't intend to go back the proprietary way anytime soon. USB disks are cheap and can be read from any OS. Give Linux a try, you wont regret it (unless you go the vanilla ubuntu or gnome 3 way)

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

They want to see how much of a lifeline from desktop to metro they can keep going before people start rejecting their metro on desktop.

I'm already rejecting it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Nerdfest]

I think you may have made the traditional loser/looser mistake here ...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Nerdfest]

A small portion of people who do a single task all day or for long periods of time *will* be more productive. They could always have one window only open before. They have now made everyone else who requires multiple application open at the same time suffer for the other people.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GodInHell]

The desktop is right there underlying the metro interface. The mistake, that people make when first trying Win8 because it *is* flawed in its design, is that they pick an app off the metro screen and think that's what using Win8 is like. It is not. You start word -- bang -- you're back at a desktop with windows and a close button -- everything you are accustomed to (but the start menu). Same goes for firefox, opera, steam, excel, GIMP, etc -- you load in a window on a familiar desktop setting (including "2 windows side by side" which is why I picked under the GGP).

Re:If you don't like metro...

[gagol]

To be fair, I fould Linux to be much more flexible on the power users... did not work on Mac though. To me, Windows is a huge pile of corporate /eat it that way or get half baked wordaround" compared to "this is the absolute minimum, and now choose your shell/graphic server/DE/programming environment, etc. What is a workaround in Windows(TM) is a native element in Linux.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ahabswhale]

I have yet to see any of this extra speed everyone talks about.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tbh, Windows 8 with Start 8 is better Windows 7 than Windows 7 itself, cleaner theme, and the desktop itself is MUCH improved, boot times are more or less half of 7's with SSD, and memory usage is considerably lower, and things in general work faster. I removed all metro apps and Start 8 made the rest simply go away too. Personally, I just would not go back to 7, it's just worse on [i]desktop[/i]. I upgraded my computers through 29e upgrade deal, so it was really cheap and [i]worth it[/i], but now that W8 is back to normal prices... now I gotta admit I would skip the upgrade :)

Re:If you don't like metro...

[vux984]

they look the same, the corners aren't rounded is the only difference; not sure if that looks 'crappier' or not. looking at them side by side i think 7 basic looks worse than 8 to be honest, but aesthetics are subjective.

I still remember when XP was berated mercilessly here for its "green start menu button" and adding stuff to the start menu and called the worst thing ever. And now many of the same people are clinging to it saying its greatest thing Microsoft ever made.

All I've learned from that is that some people are just not open to change.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

> What's a "WinKey"?

This video explains it for you: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JMI8JoMM_k

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems nobody uses a desktop anymore? Let me try to "close the lid" on my machine. Oh I can't. Good thing its only a complete pain in the ass to use windows now.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Silence, shill. The OS should get out of the way and let us focus on our applications. Making users re-learn everything every new release is NOT good design, no matter how much you types want to try to promote it as such.

I mean really, how about I switch the pedals on your car and put the steering wheel on the floor, then laugh and call you a moron when you claim "hey, that's not how it's supposed to be, this change is completely unnecessary!"

This is exactly the issue most people are having with Windows 8: too much change for change's sake, with no valid reason or design behind them. Just trying to leverage a monopoly and herd users into more vendor lock-in.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GodInHell]

You are arguing with a raft of people who USE Win8 and are telling you that the thing you are claiming you cannot do is so ingrained into the system that it is obvious you do NOT know what you are talking about -- and you respond by QFTFA? Good luck.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[david_thornley]

It's telling that 90% of the people I see defending Windows 8 are explaining how to completely avoid the Metro/Modern part of it and then talking about what's better under the hood (which seems to be substantial).

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely agree with the point that Microsoft's implementations are intended solely to benefit Microsoft, not the customer. At some point around the Vista era, Windows stopped being an Operating System and started being a "vehicle" for Microsoft's service model. Yuck!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[david_thornley]

They also seem to be using their other big monopoly, Microsoft Office, to muscle into the tablet market. From what I've read, MS is releasing Office for the Surface soon, and for Android and iOS much later, and they're going to use that as a selling point.

One wonders if they're planning on selling in the EU any time soon, and how certain they are that the US DoJ is going to go light on them again.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Lord_Jeremy]

What Mac have you used that had a UI like that? One running Windows 8? Macs do NOT use a "Start Screen", they have the Dock. Odldly enough I've heard people complain that the enhanced taskbar in Win7 was too Mac-like.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[chopthechops]

Here's the thing. Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it.

What part of Metro is even remotely "Mac like"? You make it sound like Microsoft copied the OS X and Ubuntu GUIs to produce Metro. I use all three side by side and I can assure you Metro has no resemblance to any other desktop user interface. It very obviously resembles Android and iOS phone interfaces though.

If you have first hand knowledge of all three systems then I am curious as to what you mean by this statement because I find OS X and Ubuntu Unity both very usable as a desktop GUIs and they have never lost functionality over successive iterations. We no doubt agree on the Metro fail but why hate on OS X and Unity when they aren't remotely related to the way Metro looks or works? Neither OS X or Unity have a preference for reduced functionality apps or single full screen app operation, they both have the same full functionality programs and multi-tasking, multi-window environment they've always had.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[chopthechops]

A small portion of people who do a single task all day or for long periods of time *will* be more productive. They could always have one window only open before.

So they are used to having only one window open all day and now they can ONLY have one window open all day. How does Metro make them more productive? In fact in many cases such people will be less productive by being forced into using Metro apps due to the severely reduced functionality associated with using dumbed-down-for-touch apps on a desktop rather than a traditional full featured desktop app.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Nerdfest]

Metro takes away your ability to be distracted by other windows. That's the only way it helps.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming from Win7, I tried several linux distros and found Mint 13 Xfce by far the easiest to get used to. Non-technical relatives agree.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Anonymous Coward]

No idea either. But doesn't matter to me because the menu I use to toggle Wordperfect, dBase, and Lotus123, which by the way is called Metro, still works great!

What is Metro?
Lotus Metro is a memory-resident desktop management DOS application that allows you to access pop-up desktop accessories such as a calendar, calculator, clock, and so on. Lotus Metro also contains a full-featured keyboard macros program.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75861

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Grishnakh]

All they need to do is give people an option to turn the metro shit off.

No, they don't. If they let people turn the Metro shit off, then people won't get used to using Metro and learn to like it. Then they won't want to buy Windows phones and tablets which also have Metro on them. People need to have Metro forced on them on their PCs and laptops so they'll want to buy phones and tablets too.

It's always been rather striking..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I can never quite shake the dissonance associated with the fact that the OS called 'Windows' has always had fairly shit window management and now seems hellbent on making it worse(Gosh, why wouldn't a UI designed for 10' or smaller touch-tablets be a bad idea on a dual-head desktop? I sure can't think of any reasons...)

Re:It's always been rather striking..

[UnknowingFool]

I suspect it's not dissonance as much as stubbornness. I think the master plan has been to get all their Windows desktop users to use Metro by force so that they'll be familiar with it when they buy tablets and smartphones. With the latest revolt, they are not retreating but falling back to a second position.

Re:It's always been rather striking..

[splutty]

You have a 10' tablet? WOW!

How do you work with that, some sort of full body contact thing? Twister based?

Or more along the lines of Dance Dance Revolution?

I can see it now: Man I'm tired, I've been entering stuff in Excel 2018 all day, my legs hurt!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist ;)

Complete with 'Start' button

[hcs_$reboot]

That's a relief. To shutdown, users had to " Mouse to Top right > Settings > Shutdown ". Soon they'll be back to "click Start" to "Shutdown" - and whatever you think of that, that's even more intuitive and consistent that the "new" metro style...

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[jeffclay]

No, it'll be click "Start" > click "Settings" > click "Shutdown". They've added a Start button, not the Start menu.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[operagost]

That's not enough changes! It's not a new version unless they've arbitrarily renamed everything! It should be called a "My Start" button, and "Settings" should be "Configuration", and "Shutdown" should be "Damn memory leaks again".

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[Cassini2]

From a design review: "I don't like pressing Start to stop things. There should be two buttons: Start and Stop. Where would you get the idea that pressing Start to Stop was a good idea? (looks at down computer) Oh, from Windows, ..."

Non-obvious stop functions are a bad idea, and this becomes very obvious when dealing with expensive and dangerous machinery. Many safety standard bans require obvious stop buttons. Critical functions should be obvious and easy. When the stop button is non-obvious, it probably means other problems exist with the design too.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[Anonymous Coward]

To shut down, you hit the power button. It's not rocket science.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[Anonymous Coward]

You're pressing 'Start' to start the process of shutting down your PC.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[emuls]

It's not a "start" button, it's a fucking menu button. It hasn't said "Start" on it in over a decade.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a "start" button, it's a fucking menu button. It hasn't said "Start" on it in over a decade

LOL just pressed with windows key on my keyboard and it revealed the start button consisting of windows logo followed by the word "start" in bold faced font.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[strikethree]

The power cord works pretty well. ;-)

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[hcs_$reboot]

And you even skip the loong updates ...

Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Joe_Dragon]

Metro should be able to run in a window on the desktop

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[wiggles]

THIS.

Metro should have been put inside of Explorer, as an optional component, not the other way around. Alternatively, detect if there's a mouse or touchscreen present - and if there's a touchscreen, launch Metro, and if there's a mouse, launch Explorer.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Gertlex]

THIS.

Metro should have been put inside of Explorer, as an optional component, not the other way around. Alternatively, detect if there's a mouse or touchscreen present - and if there's a touchscreen, launch Metro, and if there's a mouse, launch Explorer.

I won't disagree with this... but really, it doesn't matter because there still are no useful apps that don't have better counterparts on a regular desktop.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[betterprimate]

This sounds very much like Launchpad on OSX. It appears as an overlay and its usage is entirely voluntary.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Darinbob]

Agreed. Also make it an optional feature instead of making it mandatory. If some users like it then they can use it. But requiring everyone to see it is about as stupid as requiring everyone to boot to Microsoft Bob before seeing the desktop. (yes I know there are third party fixes)

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Darinbob]

Metro isn't even capable of working by itself. Desktop can survive without Metro, but Metro is incomplete and needs the desktop to do basic operations. Metro doesn't even have any sort of file management capability.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Darinbob]

Microsoft really failed at presenting why this interface is a good idea because it shipped with a bunch of poorly designed apps, most of which could be handled better in a web browser. Instead they seem to be relying on some break through third party app in the store to highlight why Metro is a good idea. In practice the most popular third party Windows 8 apps are the start menu replacers.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[jonadab]

> Metro should have been put inside of Explorer, as an optional component

Actually, I think Metro on the Desktop would have been better received if implemented as a thing you can bring up in front of the rest of your UI, when you want it, sort of like the Dashboard in OS X.

As it stands, it was received even less enthusiastically than the horribly mishandled Vista Gadget Sidebar. Seven moved the non-resizable Gadgets to the desktop and eliminated the sidebar; I don't know if Eight even supports the gadgets at all. If you want to see how the sidebar *should* have been implemented, look at Gnome's panel applets.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[wiggles]

In Metro's defense, neither does Android - unless you install Astro or something 3rd party. I assume iOS is similar, but I've never used it.

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Darinbob]

Generally on Android or iOS you're not working with files. You're reading mail, sending texts, etc. Photos are files but they tend to be usable only within the photo application (from what I know anyway, I don't get third party apps). But those are intentionallly limited interfaces, these are PDAs and not full blown general purpose computers, the user typically uses only one finger to control it all, and their use is mostly limited to content consumption and messaging.

So in metro, everything's find as long as you only use the app and try not to think outside the box. The "Reader" will let you find and open PDF files for example, however it won't let you make backups or move files to different folders, etc.

4", 10", 21"

[tepples]

Part of the problem is that tablet makers have taken a UI designed for 4" phones and shoved it onto 10" tablets. Why can't most tablets run two or three phone apps side by side?

Re:4", 10", 21"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would I ever want to do that? Even on my desktop, with my 20" monitor, I always run anything maximized, and I also make all fonts and UI elements as tiny as possible to increase the effective screen space.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[tepples]

Even on my desktop, with my 20" monitor, I always run anything maximized

You do. Others don't, and they have good reasons. One of them is that switching between maximized windows of multiple applications involved in a given task is slower than switching with your eyes.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[Entropius]

This, right here, is the problem -- and that they've let the tablet-makers dictate mouse/keyboard UI's.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[JDG1980]

Part of the problem is that tablet makers have taken a UI designed for 4" phones and shoved it onto 10" tablets. Why can't most tablets run two or three phone apps side by side?

A 10" screen is way too small for that. You have to get well above 20" before two side-by-side windows start to become feasible.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[steelfood]

Because people's fingers are still too fat. The mouse pointer can get down to one or two pixels in resolution. Fingers are still stuck at a blob of around 12-15 in diameter.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[Kielistic]

You have to get well above 20" before two side-by-side windows start to become feasible.

> 20" monitors have only become common in the last 5 or so years and you are completely overlooking laptops. I assure you people have been, and still do, use multiple windows on screens smaller than 20". Additionally, if 4" is big enough for an app then double that would be fine for two apps (barring pixel density issues).

Re:4", 10", 21"

[SpiralSpirit]

because I want to watch a youtube video while browsing reddit and sending an email.

Re:4", 10", 21"

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the problem is that users, especially tecchie users, insist on seeing the smartphone/tablet as a computer.

It makes a lot more sense if you realise that the iPad/iPhone was never meant as a replacement for the desktop computer, More like, a successor to the living room TV set.

Most important part of the article

[Anonymous Coward]

"More to come. Thanks for reading.

Antoine Leblond,
Corporate Vice President, Windows Program Management"

1 min fix

[Anonymous Coward]

So they just pinned a shortcut to the metro start menu to the task bar. Wonderful. Does it break replacements like classic shell as an added bonus?

Re:Why don't you concentrate on the IMPORTANT thin

[rock_climbing_guy]

Benghazi is actually sort of like this Windows 8.

The powers that be screwed up, and they know they screwed up.

Yet, to the public, they pretend that nothing ever went wrong while trying to control the damage.

But then again, AFAIK, no one has died yet on account of Windows 8.

Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Gothmolly]

Why bother upgrading?

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[anthony_greer]

Because win 7 will wont last for ever and glass touch screens are not a good replacement for mouse and keyboard in many office job types of work.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Entropius]

Simple stupid answer: because my new laptop came with it, because I know the drivers and sorting through the UEFI baggage to install win7 on it will be a pain, and because I've not gotten around to it yet. It's a piece of shit.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor argument. "won't last forever." Use it for the next few years, not forever. By then Windows 8 might be changed enough to make just about everyone happy with it. If not, Google might step in and give us Android for desktop, That would really dent future Windows use especially if it can easily print locally.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[jones_supa]

Why bother upgrading?

Good point. Even if Windows 8 didn't have all the Metro silliness, Windows 7 would still do its job just fine.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to any major PC maker (Lenovo, Dell, etc) and find a nice laptop at a good price. It WILL come with Windows 8. Want a similarly equipped laptop with Windows 7 and be ready to pay a premium price for it (easily $150 more). MS is obviously giving incentives to the PC makers to push Windows 8 products.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[antdude]

Or XP Pro. SP3. And people ask me why I still use it. It works fine. I care not! I will get W7 when it is time (MS drops support in April 2014) or new hardwares can't use XP anymore.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to keep win 7 forever, just until a new OS comes along that is an actual improvement. Win 8 isn't it, and neither is 8.1.

Luckily the OS doesn't run from the cloud yet, so MS can't dictate to everyone which version they have to buy and use. If I buy a Cadillac and the next year's redesign turns out to be worse, why should I be forced to purchase it anyway? That would be stupid. Yes I know my new Cadillac won't last forever, but it's working right now isn't it? It will last me quite a bit more than one year, don't you think? And if it doesn't, I am switching to Lincoln.

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

When did you upgrade to Windows 7? I'm still on XP. (On the rare case when I need a VM to test things on windows.)

More than two applications simultaneously?

[Anonymous Coward]

"On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable."

Wow! Maybe in the next version, they could allow apps to be put into some sort of free floating, completely user-resizable surfaces. Like some sort of virtual mini displays on your monitor. Can you imagine the possibilities which such a radical UI concept? Now we just need some catchy name for this revolutionary framework...

Metro == Bob 2.0

[anthony_greer]

MS Bob was an interesting idea that just didn't work in the desktop metaphor and was then scrapped - but fortunately they only sold that as an add on and didn't replace the default shell with it! If they had done so at that tender time in history, we may well be talking about OS/2 or Amiga as the dominant platforms for X86 PCs now.

With Metro, unlike Bob, there is some usefulness as it is in my experience, a good tablet interface that they can grow on for a decade or two, but for the love of god, get it off of my workstation and non touch screen laptop!

Re:Metro == Bob 2.0

[Entropius]

There are two fundamentally different directions Win8 is being pulled. One direction is dictated by marketing: "app stores" are a giant fucking money tree, and Microsoft is under pressure to grow one -- so they want to push things as far as possible in the tablet/phone direction.

The other is the simple reality that a touchscreen and a mouse/keyboard are not the same, and the demands on a mouse/keyboard GUI that runs on a 1080p 23" display are very different than those on a 4" phone.

You're all gonna hate me

[kannibal_klown]

People are going to hate me, but I kind of dig Windows 8.

Part of this may be due to having a touch-pad input device and a 27" monitor @1440 resolution.

Don't get me wrong... I think it's BEYOND stupid how they've hidden the "Shutdown / Restart" functionality. And I think they should make Metro and the new start menu optional because some people were obviously going to not like it (for valid reasons). Kind of like how Glass was optional in Windows. And there are a lot of down-sides in general.

But I like the new start menu. Since Windows XP/7/whatever I've like the condensed start menu with my commonly used apps with the option to expand out to the full list. Click once for the condensed list, twice for the full list, or search for what you want. Which is exactly what Win 8 does, only the lists take up the full screen and searching is one more click than before.

Obviously there are a bunch of down-sides: low info density, highly GPU intensive, etc. But I like it. I think the new UI is different, which is good. We've been using the same interface since Win95.

Meanwhile, on the desktop side, I like the various changes they made to the desk-top aspects. The ribbon on Explorer, though some of my friends hate it. The new Task Manager. etc.

Ultimately, you can't really fault someone for "liking" something. Some people like Britney Spears, some people hate her music.

But I'm sure either way, this post will get modded down to oblivion.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[linebackn]

I think the new UI is different, which is good. We've been using the same interface since Win95.

Changing things for the sake of change is not good. I see you are still speaking English? Why don't you start using that "new" Esperanto instead? If you don't, then you are doing things the oooooooolllllld way.

The Windows 95/NT 4 user interface, was - unlike Windows 8's - well researched, very solid, and very usable. Most of its "flaws" came from application developers not using it right (such as cluttered Windows 3.1 style program groups in the Start menu)

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[kannibal_klown]

I think the new UI is different, which is good. We've been using the same interface since Win95.

Changing things for the sake of change is not good. I see you are still speaking English? Why don't you start using that "new" Esperanto instead? If you don't, then you are doing things the oooooooolllllld way.

The Windows 95/NT 4 user interface, was - unlike Windows 8's - well researched, very solid, and very usable. Most of its "flaws" came from application developers not using it right (such as cluttered Windows 3.1 style program groups in the Start menu)

Change for the sake of change isn't necessary, but neither is "using the same old interface for 20 years because it works well enough"

It's a interface for a computer, not a hammer or a crowbar which is fine remaining static for decades. 35/40 years ago many people felt command-line was good enough; after a couple of visual UI attempts a decent motif was embraced. By your logic, command-line was good enough and change was pointless.

If we want to innovate, we have to try new things and in that process things will fail due to either bad ideas or implementation. But in that failure we'll see what we did wrong AND pick up a few kernels of "the good stuff" that actually worked well from the failure.

Someone at Microsoft had an idea for something different. They tried it. Lots of people hate it, but they had some decent ideas buried in there as well.

Meanwhile, some people like it. They have different priorities and tastes. Their tastes shouldn't drive the minority for obvious reasons but at the same time you can't fault them for having those tastes.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[Anonymous Coward]

Click once for the condensed list, twice for the full list, or search for what you want. Which is exactly what Win 8 does, only the lists take up the full screen and searching is one more click than before.

My Quick launch bar expands the entire bottom of my screen. All of my frequently used programs (~50 of them) go there. One click to launch any application. For the less frequently used programs (~100 of them), I can hit Start, All Programs, Scroll for Program, Click Folder, click Application. 4 total clicks and a bit of scrolling.

With Windows8, I instead press Windows+C, click the charm menu, type the name of my application, and click it. Hotkey + 2 mouse clicks + typing. The typing is what throws everything off, you have to move your hand back and forth between the keyboard and mouse to open any program in Windows now. This is less efficient than keeping my hand on the mouse the entire time.

The Office 2007+ Ribbon eventually caught on because users had no choice. However, Ribbon actually got a lot of things right when it came out. Microsoft is hoping the same will happen with "Metro". It won't ... "Metro" needs to go back to UI school and try again.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[DaedylusSL]

I agree with pretty much every word you said. I wish I had some mod points to mod this comment up.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[jones_supa]

I couldn't find a single function in the Win8 UI which would work better, faster or more productively than its Win7 counterpart.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[kannibal_klown]

The idea of tiles is OK so long as they're done well. Letting you glance at pieces of information from the apps with an eye-scan CAN be useful. So long as the developers make it
A) easy to tell which app that tile is for
B) show the information-bite cleanly
C) don't scroll through too many or too fast

And for some people on some monitors, having the big tiles is a little more comfortable on the eyes that a whole bunch of items grouped together on 12pt-tall-lines.

And some people like what minor UI tweaks they did on the desktop. TaskManager, ribbon on the folders, etc.

Beyond that, mostly it's just eye-candy.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, what a moron. "Because it works well enough" isn't a good argument? Since when? So, it's OK that the hammer hasn't changed, but it's not OK for a GUI? Both are already well suited to their respective tasks!

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[Aphrika]

Obviously there are a bunch of down-sides: low info density, highly GPU intensive, etc.

Actually, it's not very GPU intensive at all. They removed all the transparency, effects, graduations and shadows. This was done to give more battery life on mobile devices where GPU effects can have a tangible impact on battery life.

I'm with you on the information density though. I really wish desktop apps could benefit from the Live Tile features, but that seems to be one area in which the two environments don't overlap. At least 8.1 has the smaller quarter tile App size icon though, which should prove useful.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[houghi]

a 27" monitor @1440 resolution.

The reason you don't run it in at least 1920x1200 is because you use it like a TV, not like a computer monitor

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[vidnet]

Sharing to Facebook.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[kannibal_klown]

27" @ 2560x1440

I use it like a monitor. I have my project explorer on the right, and my source code in the big panel on the left.

At time time of writing I wasn't at said computer, and couldn't remember how many pixels wide.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[EdZ]

and searching is one more click than before

You can still hit the start key (you want an on-screen element? But you have a labelled physical button right there!) and just start typing, and your search results will begin popping up immediately. Opening Thunderbird by typing start->t->return is nearly as fast as keeping it in the quicklaunch bar and hitting start+2. Both a lot faster than either the left 1/5-of-your screen or the full-screen start menu variants. Why people are complaining about UI on slashdot when a perfectly functional keyboard-only option has been enabled by default for the last 6 years (introduced in Vista) is beyond me...

And on the subject of keyboard shortcuts: for those complaining about the ribbon, hit alt. Tah-dah! instant tutorial and cheatsheet for learning the shortcuts to every UI option.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[cbhacking]

Searching doesn't take more clicks than before... open Start (WinKey or single mouse click), then type.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[Anonymous Coward]

Esperanto estas multe pli bela ol Windows 8. La komparo insultas gxin.

easy enough to do

[RobertLTux]

if you create a batch file with
shutdown /s /t 0
as the contents you can even give it a nifty Stopsign icon

please be aware [color=red][style=blinking]THIS WILL BE AN IMMEDIATE SHUTDOWN NO WARNING[/color][/style]

if you want a warning set /t to say 30

full details at http://pcsupport.about.com/od/commandlinereference/p/shutdown-command.htm

Re:easy enough to do

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny fact is: to shutdown DOS, you didn't have to search for some mysterious hidden buttons, write scripts or bring christian infant to Steve. You just... powered it off, that's all.
So, where's your 20 years of user-friendliness now?

Re:easy enough to do

[BattleApple]

I have a batch file on my desktop containing "shutdown /a" which aborts the shutdown process if the warning is enabled. This is because our administrators force a reboot of everyone's desktop if it's been logged on for more than 6 days so they can apply patches

Re:easy enough to do

[Luckyo]

In power management settings. Just set power button press to shut down the machine. Or hibernate, like I have it set to.

Re:easy enough to do

[ericloewe]

Also good to ward off script kiddies on school networks who were taught how to use shutdown -i

I sometimes wonder who the hell thought that would be a good idea...

Re:easy enough to do

[omnichad]

You're right. DOS couldn't multi-task, so if you have a blinking cursor at a command prompt you know the disk isn't in use. I'm not sure how that's a great thing.

Re:easy enough to do

[OrangeTide]

A better user interface is a system that never shutdowns down. It might hibernate, but when you plug it back in, everything is right where you left it.

A few research OSes have tried this sort of thing before. such as all RAM being disk-backed with support for checkpointing. Tricky things like leaving TCP sessions in a state that can be resumed, or forcing them into a state where the disconnection will be immediately picked up on resume had to be done of course. But it did hide a lot of this nasty business of waiting for the OS to finish forcing programs to terminate.

Re:easy enough to do

[RobertLTux]

yes but with /s /t 0 There is NO WARNING which is why i suggested using /t 30

Re:easy enough to do

[jones_supa]

As a sidenote though, if you were using SmartDrive (Microsoft's disk caching utility), it was recommended to command "smartdrv /c" before powering off to ensure that the buffer was flushed.

Re:easy enough to do

[Pentium100]

Well, the way Metro UI is designed it looks like Microsoft does not want you to multitask on Windows too. Opening email app in full screen? No, thank you, I have a 24" monitor so many windows (and desktop icons) can fit and I do not need the email program to take the whole screen (only video players and games should do that).

Re:easy enough to do

[omnichad]

Full screen apps aren't a problem. The problem is replacing productivity apps with full screen ones. I like OS X's way of making apps full screen - every app that can do full screen has a windowed mode as well. Microsoft Word shouldn't be full screen, but if I'm writing a book I may not want any distractions. If I'm playing an immersive game, Metro or traditional UI doesn't really make a difference - full screen is still full screen.

The Metro weather app that comes with Windows 8 is great. I don't want it up constantly - I just want to pull it up and then go back to what I was doing. It's a full mental context switch anyway, so it might as well take the full screen.

Re:easy enough to do

[Pentium100]

Microsoft Word shouldn't be full screen, but if I'm writing a book I may not want any distractions.

Or if I am writing something else (for example, translating some text or something that requires reference) I might want part of some other window poking out from underneath Word.

I don't want it up constantly - I just want to pull it up and then go back to what I was doing. It's a full mental context switch anyway, so it might as well take the full screen.

I don't like any full screen apps other than games or movies. The weather app should only take as much screen space as needed to show the information Besides, for me, looking at a weather app or flipping a tape (or playing a different file) is not a full mental context switch - it does not clear the cache. I want to be able to get back to my program without having to go trough a list - I just click the part of its window that is poking out.

Re:easy enough to do

[omnichad]

If they weren't trying to make sure Metro apps could compile cross-platform with little extra work they could just mandate that Windows 8 Desktop apps must offer a desktop mode also regardless of whether they use Metro or not.

The weather app isn't something I'm going to go to several times a day. But when I do, I want to look at a lot of details. But the Metro use case doesn't apply to everyone.

Eventually I see them just putting a Metro app inside a virtual "full-screen" window that maximizes back to real full-screen Metro mode similar to how ModernMix does it. No extra effort from the programmer. All apps should deal with varying screen sizes anyway. Especially since they usually have a mobile counterpart with a much lower resolution.

Re:easy enough to do

[Darinbob]

We also spent a long time retraining parents and grandparents to do a clean shutdown and to never just push the power button or flip off the power strip. Now we have to retrain them to push the power button and wait, but not flip off the power strip. And after the screen goes blank they must be taught to also wait 10-15 seconds before flipping off the power strip because Windows is still active. (it's a really idiotic feature of Windows 8 to flip off the video before finishing the shutdown)

Re:easy enough to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah and the fixed it on the next version of DOS to issue it automatically before giving you the prompt.

Re:easy enough to do

[LoneTech]

DOS did have limited multi-tasking. The cursor blinking is performed by hardware (so doesn't even indicate DOS is running), and DOS has had background print spooling from disk since version 2, not that anybody I know ever used it. We did use a bunch of other TSRs (a TLA for programs that keep working after returning to the prompt, they were that common), such as DOSKEY or QDISK. True multitasking was achieved with other addons, such as DESQview or VMIX, and even DOS itself provided task switching via DOS Shell (after version 4).
The indication of being back at the prompt did work in combination with the fact that it wouldn't do any work unless and until instructed (in other words, it's in a stable state). You would know not to interrupt a print job simply because you just started it.

Re:easy enough to do

[Hillgiant]

Do we need to park the hard drive too?

Re:easy enough to do

[sgbett]

You at least have to land all your butterflies.

even better

[slashmydots]

You know what does window sharing and open application management even better than the new and improved Metro? Windows fucking explorer! I set everything on client machines to open in desktop-only software like picture and fax viewer and media player and leave it like that. Why would I learn some touch-friendly, ugly, barely labeled, horribly designed hellscape like Metro when I already know how to use the modern explorer UI? And bring back flip 3d, damn it!

Hopefully Metro will replace old UI's

[Vince6791]

The problem with windows 8 is that it did not go all the way and make the Metro the only and primary UI for the OS which means the Metro has to be customizable((((((change background wallpapers, label grouped tiles, sort tiles, scroll vertical as well, change tile icons to any shape or object,etc....)))))), run any type of application and more than 1 instant, of course extend to multiple monitors. Sick of the old taskbar and just want something simple like the Metro but with powerful features at the same time. I mean they are addressing some of the issues with windows 8 which we will see in 8.1, but hopefully the Metro will be the only UI for windows 9.

Sorry, but i'm just sick of looking at and using all these 1990's type 95/xp/7/kde UI's. We are moving towards touch screens and kinect type control which will replace the keyboard and mouse, this will actually help a lot of people who have carpel tunnel syndrome.

Or Microsoft could had just released sp2 for windows 7 and release a full working metro OS for those who want it.

Re:Hopefully Metro will replace old UI's

[0123456]

You are so right. I can't wait for the glorious future of creating Excel spreadsheets by randomly waving my hands in the air in front of a computer.

Re:Hopefully Metro will replace old UI's

[Cro Magnon]

You are so right. I can't wait for the glorious future of creating Excel spreadsheets by randomly waving my hands in the air in front of a computer.

I'm at least hoping to be able to give my Microsoft product the finger and have it actually respond.

Re:Hopefully Metro will replace old UI's

[pscottdv]

Douglas Adams predicted this. He predicted that everything would become gesture controlled and then we would have to sit maddeningly still in order to listen to the radio without changing stations.

Fix it Yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want Windows 8 to look and work like Windows 7, use Classic Shell.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/

The option of Metro is still available for tablet users and masochists.

Re:Fix it Yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Never considered it to be even a little tiny bit strange that users have to use a third party modification for what Microsoft SHOULD have given them?

In fact - Micrsoft is just slapping the regular desktop users in the face by litterly sayin: "We know what you would like, but we wont give it to you. We want it our way and shutup now!".

Way to go Microsoft...

For now Windows 7 is the lates OS users liked, and Windows 8 is what Microsoft liked - screwing the users...

Re:Fix it Yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a masochist, and I still hate Metro.

A start button and a Nanny cam

[Trax3001BBS]

"We also added the ability to take pictures with the built-in camera right from the Lock screen without having to log in."

This is a XboxOne feature, the video and microphone will always be on so it can greet you when you walk into a room or able
to take voice commands. The privacy issues should be obvious for a company like Microsoft.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-24/news/ct-met-kass-0524-20130524_1_drone-attacks-xbox-one-jeff-henshaw

Re:A start button and a Nanny cam

[Anonymous Coward]

Am wondering if we shouldn't potion the EPA or are who ever is responsible in California. Asking them to force a maximum idle wattage for the new consoles.

Re:A start button and a Nanny cam

[cbhacking]

Um... no, you twit. Unless you're trying to shoehorn in a completely unrelated discussion about Xbox here, in which case you should have been modded Offtopic, then you're either ignorant or trolling. The new feature does not have the mic or webcam on constantly, nor is everything it hears automatically getting uploaded. Instead, it's the same as a feature in Windows Phone (both WP7 and WP8): whip out your phone (or in this case, tablet or possibly laptop), tap a button, and enter a locked-down version of the Camera app that allows you to a picture without needing to enter your password.

Useful feature, nothing new in a Microsoft product (just not previously in this product line), no privacy issue at all, and not even vaguely related to Xbox One... but your post bashes Microsoft, so you apparently got modded up for it anyhow. Idiots.

Multiple, resizable Windows - Wow!

[Necron69]

It's like 1991 all over again. Do I have to install Trumpet WinSOCK to connect to my ISP?

Seriously, it feels like Microsoft has forgotten why they called the damn OS 'Windows' in the first place.

At work, we just finally upgraded to Windows 7 a few months ago. Microsoft still has plenty of time to fix more things before IT even considers Win8.

- Necron69

Re:Multiple, resizable Windows - Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes the next update is.. "We're moving away from TCP/IP.. we feel Bluetooth should provide enough networking for anybody.."

Besides if your not connected to that non-proprietary thing called the Internet.. your less vulnerable and more secure.

People who want secure banking should go into the bank and process their transactions with paper checks or use paper mail.

"And.. we feel this will help address the BMI problem in this country.. we're all about protecting the environment"

"We're not stubborn, just Principled"

Re:Multiple, resizable Windows - Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart IT pros run Linux. No muss, no fuss... 36 workspaces with up to 200 open windows on each!
Immune to all the tens of millions of Microsoft Virus...

Up to 200 times faster in the processes that make computers/servers operate!

Sorry to be redundant, But, GNU/Linux (since 1992), and BSD, since 1971, both represent properly secured OSes for servers, which is why they run 98% of ALL internet, Corporate, and Government Servers!

Every Microsoft POS is fatally flawed, wide open to hackers, absolutely and totally insecure. Even Microsoft knows it, and runs Linux and BSD, on all Corporate Systems! Anyone who tries to deny that is a M$ $hill!

and then they broke it even worse

[slashmydots]

"In Windows 8.1, the Search charm will provide global search results powered by Bing in a rich, simple-to-read, aggregated view of many content sources (the web, apps, files, SkyDrive, actions you can take) to provide the best “answer” for your query."

So Windows Vista had a passive indexer that killed your hard drive speed and didn't include system settings like "screen saver" as results. Windows 7 indexed locations in realtime and included system settings and was absolutely flawless. Windows 8 split it into 3 vague categories so you have to click multiple times to find what you're looking for and the prompt you start typing in is actually far off the screen completely to the right. You have to just know it's there. 8.1 arrives and now we get a possibly re-combined search but then you get web results from a search engine that nobody wants to use. Yay! I know when I'm looking for my resume, I definitely want to sort through a billion bullshit Bing web results about resumes before finding my resume.doc file. What a pathetic attempt to force people to use a garbage service. I hope Europe sues their asses off. This alone is going to force me to keep boycotting Windows 8 and 8.1 at my computer repair and sales store.

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[Entropius]

Whatever happened to find and grep for finding and grepping things? It's so much faster than "click on this, wait for the animation of the little fucking dog to load, search for a thing, search for the thing in the OTHER context, wait for the little magnifying glass to animate..."

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[pscottdv]

Oh! The Dog! Don't get me started on the Dog!

I don't know why, but I have rarely felt more frustration than the hundreds of times I have told search to "turn off animation" for clients and then be forced to wait through an animation of the animation being turned off. It's like Microsoft just HAS to get the last word in. You don't like our animation? Well here's a little more of what you JUST TOLD US YOU DON'T LIKE! What're you going to do about it?

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever happened to find and grep for finding and grepping things? It's so much faster than "click on this, wait for the animation of the little fucking dog to load, search for a thing, search for the thing in the OTHER context, wait for the little magnifying glass to animate..."

Those animations aren's slowing anything down, not on any PC made in the last decade; there are GPUs for that. They're just there to distract you while Windows' slow-as-fuck file engine loads and scans the index from your 7200 RPM disk.

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[MrNiceguy_KS]

Another hater of the XP Search Dog right freakin' here! And yes, the "going out the doggie door" animation always pissed me off, for the same reason you describe.

I once spent way too much time trying to diagnose a "My PC keeps making a funny noise" call. It was a rare, intermittent noise; sounded a bit like a hard drive seeking, but louder. I was worried about an impending drive failure, or something like that.

Turns out there was a search results window open in the background, and the damn dog periodically scratches himself. With sound effects.

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[Entropius]

I always thought it was the MSIE "navigation" noise -- turns out the search window refreshes itself once in a while. I've heard that fucking noise too.

WHY does a file browser need sound effects? WHY?

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[Entropius]

Well, sure. I know they're pretty fast (although I would really prefer not to have to spin up my GPU and eat power to render a dog licking itself, thanks). But the whole process of finding where I put my damn files is so much harder on Windows than it should be. I want to search for a thing, why do I have to click ten times?

surprise, it's bullshit

[slashmydots]

They didn't add "the start menu."
"There are also options to change what the corners do, and options to boot into alternate screens. For example, if you prefer to see the Apps view versus all the tiles, you can choose to have the Start screen go directly to Apps view."
And that is it. So there's no little context menu style start menu like Windows 95 - 7. Instead of 1 way to view that awful metro interface, now you can have 2 ways. Woooo! It's still a shortcut to the full screen metro interface, not a start menu. Now though, it probably makes it impossible to run stardock in the bottom left.

Re:Why don't you concentrate on the IMPORTANT thin

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh i don't know... It's not any stretch to believe someone somewhere had enough stress over windows 8 to drop dead... Or snap and kill someone.

I'm sure of it. After every reinstall of windows to fix the normal clogging... And wading thru pages and pages of OH MY GOD THAT'S FUCKING STUPID defaults...

But nobody would ever blame the computer. Just sitting there smugly watching you decay.

Will they now admit...

[Trashcan Romeo]

... that their justification for getting rid of the Start menu in the first place - "No one uses it" - was a self-serving lie?

Re:Will they now admit...

[unixisc]

I dunno about others, but I always used it. If you are working in an app full screen, and for some reason, need to open another app, the start menu is the way to do it. Some people use the desktop to save files rather than programs - habits vary.

Re:Will they now admit...

[bobbied]

Bring back the paper clip!

Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

My Windows 7 is configured to look pretty much like Windows 98.

I disable of all these shadows, nice borders, etc. Why?

Because it's not necessary and takes away from your PC's resources.

In Performance Options all I keep are Smooth Edges of screen fonts and Smooth scroll list boxes. The rest is just fluff.

I even disable all the desktop backgrounds.

And Windows 8 or 8.1 should offer the same capabilities.

The use of a PC isn't and shouldn't be the same experience as that of a mobile device.

And it's not like I don't have resources I have an Alienware with 16 GB of RAM.

But I work with my PC and I use it extensively and I would rather have more performance on my PhotoShop or NetBeans.

I don't use a PC because I want to have fun, I use it for productivity.

And IF I do want to have fun, it's not the bloody OS that is going to amuse me, but the games I can play on it.

So even for the same of games, a lean and optimized installation and configuration of Windows is always best.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

For a minimalist such as you, you sure use a lot of whitespace in your posts.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[JDG1980]

Turning off Aero on Windows 7 actually hurts performance. Aero has hardware acceleration; Classic Mode doesn't. (They could have rewritten Classic Mode so it just looked like the traditional interface and used the new back-end, but apparently couldn't be bothered.)

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[jader3rd]

I disable of all these shadows, nice borders, etc.

I don't know about shadows (I don't see any on my Win8 machine), but the nice boarders from Vista/7 got removed from Win8. I'm pretty sure it's not even possible to turn them back on.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I disable of all these shadows, nice borders, etc. Why?

  Because it's not necessary and takes away from your PC's resources.

*Facepalm*. Windows 98 could render most of these things, and do so with 32MiB of RAM. Microsoft actually have barely modified a lot of pieces over the years, that crap is still basically the same code it always was. So congratulations, you saved 500KiB out of 16GiB which is basically margin of error for random system memory allocation noise.

Shadows are actually known to be beneficial for usability as it enhances the users perception of the window stack order making the system easier to use. That may "not be necessary" but technically a full keyboard is not necessary since you can replace it with a device that has a 1 and a 0 button or a morse-code key switch and type ASCII codes directly that way, just because something is not necessary does not mean it is a bad idea.

You may wonder why your argument irritates me so much. It's because Metro exists to reduce 'unnecessary' graphics to get better performance on shitty low end tablets, you're argument for why Win8 sucks is basically praising the design choices. Metro's completely flat UI that consists of only a few colors and being made of mostly nothing more than sharp cornered rectangles in a grid should be everything you could possibly want.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's not like I don't have resources I have an Alienware with 16 GB of RAM.

Dude, you got a Dell.

(But paid an Apple price for it...)

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just idiotic and masochistic. "I can make it look better with no performance hit but I'm too geek for that.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

No it doesn't. That's false. Do some benchmark testing. And more to the point, over time you will find that Aero will actually slow down your UI.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

Well we can agree to disagree.
Visual accessibility is typically important in the realm of mouse pointer, the ability to zoom in an area and most of all high contrast between foreground and background colors.
Shadows aren't a requirement. This I know from personal experience.
It isn't the saving of 500K which is important, but the large amount of processing required for the extra animations, the rendering of the shadows and other stuff.
If an enhancement brings clarity and your system won't suffer in performance, to me, that's a plus. That's why I leave the smooth fonts settings.
But the rest slows down your PC as you operate your system, which in turns means that your apps also suffer in performance. Most of the so called enhancements either create more graphics and/or actually force the OS to perform more animations.
I've done many installations of Windows where I was paid to optimize the efficiency of the OS so that very large and demanding apps could performance at their best. and in then in comes down to this, how much core low level how pixel manipulation does your OS have to do for it to display your views.
Rule of them, less is more, its as simple as that.
And further more, my comment was basically a wish that Windows 8.1 would provide the ability for users to configure their system as I did with Windows 7.
So as I said at the beginning, we can agree to disagree.
Do some performance testing and prove me wrong.
P.S. as for your irritation, that seems to be self-induced, so get yourself something like Preparation H.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

You might want to really re-read my comment as I think you might be missing the point. Regards.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

Let's agree to disagree. Not else to say since you offer nothing of value with your comment.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I even disable all the desktop backgrounds.

I'm assuming your walls are painted white, your coffee is watered down and black, and your sex is missionary and boring?

Seriously, though - Microsoft gets it*. You're the sort of person who is a complete outlier, and someone they should be ignoring, because people who are that nutty about performance tweaks are not going to make them the sort of money and market share they need to survive.

(* It being the fact that people like nice looking interfaces. They still haven't gotten the fact that they need UI/UX people who aren't on the sauce 24/7 to achieve this.)

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are wrong. My 2D Benchmark Windows 7, Nvidia GT 440, 1920x1080x32 desktop. The "Jojo" benchmark (red bars) is with Aero enabled. The "This Computer" benchmark is with Aero disabled. My diagnosis: Your video card (or integrated GPU) is antiquated shit and probably the rest of your computer is as well. Not only that, but with Aero you get a butter-smooth, vsynced, tear-free display with no performance penalty. You? You're not.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Tinypic nerfed. Try this one.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[steelfood]

And IF I do want to have fun, it's not the bloody OS that is going to amuse me, but the games I can play on it.

What's both sad and amusing at the same time is that Windows 8 doesn't even come preloaded with the usual suite of games that's in every other version of Windows.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing you wrote will make games and applications run faster in any meaningful way.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[cbhacking]

I hate to break it to you, but unless your PC doesn't even *have* a graphics card (in which case Win8 will fall back to software rendering), Aero is actually lighter on system resources than the old, non-hardware-accelerated UI. Yes, Microsoft *could* have re-written a "Classic Mode" theme that ran in the desktop compositor, just to keep people who like legacy UI appearances (and uninformed fools like yourself) happy, but there are plenty of higher-priority things for them to do.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

mmm, obviously, you know nothing about the industry.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

Considering I have an Alienware MX18 with 16 GB of RAM which I purchased about 1 yr ago, here's the thing. I can run Windows 7 with Areo on. It works fine. But it works much faster when I'm in classic mode. That's all.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

mmm, uniformed fool.. I see.. well, you know.. this fool doesn't care about idiots like you. And by the way, when you run Aero, you actually burn up more power on your PC or Laptop and Aero over time has performance degradation. But then again, idiots like you know nothing and talk a big game.

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess, you're one of those people who want to get 320FPS instead of 300FPS and you think disabling shadows is the way to go......

So even for the same of games, a lean and optimized installation and configuration of Windows is always best.

Isn't the point of windows to *not* be configurable or optimizable? How do you go about optimizing a windows box other than making the GUI look like its the early 90s?

Re:Microsoft doesn't get it

[gencha]

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2013/03/27/10405554.aspx

What I want...

[Entropius]

... is never to interact with anything called "app" on a device with a mouse and keyboard. I don't know what the fuck "charms" are, and I don't want them either.

I don't want an "app" to handle my wifi settings, or image viewing, or anythefuckthingelse. Basically, the only thing Microsoft is good at is using their monopoly power to get developers to write code for their OS -- games, Lightroom, etc., that don't run on Linux. Microsoft is terrible at software development and doubleplusterrible at UI design; I'd like them to do as little of that as possible, make Windows as minimalist as possible, simply so I have to suffer through less of it.

I have a new laptop. The hardware is very nice, but it came with Windows 8. Among other annoyances: the wifi service dies every time the machine is suspended/hibernated, and meanwhile interacting with the wifi "app" does nothing. No error message, no "the service is not running", no "please wait, restarting wlan daemon", nothing. What the fuck? When I get a weekend free I'm going to suffer through putting Win7 on it and wrangling drivers. Meanwhile, Kubuntu runs flawlessly.

Re:What I want...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is never to interact with anything called "app" on a device with a mouse and keyboard. I don't know what the fuck "charms" are, and I don't want them either.

I don't want an "app" to handle my wifi settings, or image viewing, or anythefuckthingelse. Basically, the only thing Microsoft is good at is using their monopoly power to get developers to write code for their OS -- games, Lightroom, etc., that don't run on Linux. Microsoft is terrible at software development and doubleplusterrible at UI design; I'd like them to do as little of that as possible, make Windows as minimalist as possible, simply so I have to suffer through less of it.

I have a new laptop. The hardware is very nice, but it came with Windows 8. Among other annoyances: the wifi service dies every time the machine is suspended/hibernated, and meanwhile interacting with the wifi "app" does nothing. No error message, no "the service is not running", no "please wait, restarting wlan daemon", nothing. What the fuck? When I get a weekend free I'm going to suffer through putting Win7 on it and wrangling drivers. Meanwhile, Kubuntu runs flawlessly.

This problem seems to be caused by Windows 8 hybrid/shutdown system. If you disable hibernate in the power settings it helps with this alot. It still does this only not as much seems to be around 1 in 10 times I wake my laptop. In these cases click the wifi button put it in airplane mode and then back to normal. Takes all of 5 seconds to do.

Re:What I want...

[Entropius]

Thank you; I'll try that when I get home. Gods. And people say Linux is complicated!

No Aero?

[Twinbee]

Still no change on including or going back to Aero?

Sorry, I hate this spartan, non-bezelled/shadowed flat-land look. It's less aesthetically pleasing and it's worse in terms of distinguishing elements of the screen. I'll hold on to Win7 eternally until they do something about that.

Re:No Aero?

[smash]

They're trying to kill the classic UI so no, don't expect shiny there. Expect that the be gradually crippled and made to look worse than metro, which they are betting the farm on. In true microsoft tradition they are attempting to use influence in one market to open another (get people used to metro on desktop and they may buy a metro tablet)....

Re:No Aero?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse than just that... Microsoft is trying to lock the desktop down like an Xbox.. .period. Microsoft wants full control of all software sales and development and they want their little 'portal' locked to the OS AND the hardware. -That- is their main and long term strategy and it needs to be killed.. and I mean seriously killed. Open source is key in the prevention of this.

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

My windows 7 I already have has a start button and does everything windows 8 does.

I cant figure out the justification to pay for an upgrade to something that isn't actually an upgrade.

Re:But...

[smash]

It doesn't run Metro apps! LOL. :)

Re:But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because 8 is higher than 7, silly.

What users want

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what the users REALLY want is basically Windows 7 with an optional Metro interface for those who want it. Why not make the Metro an add-on to 7 then? Makes more sense then developing a whole new OS only to backtrack to a previous version with an optional new interface.

Re:What users want

[smash]

Yeah, but what microsoft want is to force metro on desktop users so they can use that leverage to break into the mobile market. What YOU and I want is irrelevant.

Windows 8.1 offers more colors and backgrounds!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Windows 8.1 offers more colors and backgrounds for the Start screen – including ones with motion"

Enough said.

Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Zarhan]

We've just been handed out workstations with Windows 8 in them. My productivity has plummeted. Lots of really small things.

Start menu isn't one of them, not really. Classic Shell is available and works most of the time. However, there are lots of small snags, that individually wouldn't matter, but since they are *all* present I'm really avoiding the use of the new WS at all costs.

1) The desktop interface doesn't allow for proper, colored themes. I've been able to patch things somewhat with UXPatcher from http://www.syssel.net/hoefs/software_uxtheme.php?lang=en and an appropriate theme from Deviantart, but I still think it's ugly. I cannot customize colors anymore, the title bar text is ALWAYS black.
2) Title bar text is centered. I know that it's centered on e.g. Mac OSX, but it's not been centered in Windows since Win 3.1. I have lost lots of working hours simply because I've alt-tabbed, and my typical quick glance at the top left of window doesn't give me confirmation that I'm at the correct window causes problems. At least, it takes time for me to move my face to center of each title bar. At worst, it leads to lost work - I've already once started to configure wrong server.
3) Application associations are to Metro apps by default.When clicking a file on the desktop, why the hell does Windows think I want to launch a Metro app?
4) At some point I somehow managed to launch the Finances application. Suddendly my screen is full of stock tickers. I don't know how to close it. Alt+f4 doesn't work. Esc doesn't work. Finally, Win+D seemed to work. I still don't know why that app started.
5) Most of the desktop effects that seemed to work fine in Win7 doesn't work with my RDP client from Linux machine (krdc). Sometimes I can't even see the pointer (taking cursor shadows off seem to help)
6) It's slow. Reboot seems to take like 5 minutes.

I'm not particularly worried though. On the desktop, Windows 7 will stay prevalent for ages.

However, on the server side, Windows Server 2012 has similar problems in it's UI (well, no Metro, but...)

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[kannibal_klown]

Really, 5minute reboot?

Sounds like a config problem on your end, like some 3rd party patcher software or some software running that doesn't want to quit (which I've seen in Windows 7 as well). I'm running 3 Windows 8 machines and reboot does not take long at all. A cold-boot is insanely fast, and a reboot isn't that much slower.

As for title bar colors, using the glass-y type of interface I change them just fine. Though it's all-or-nothing; I don't know if you're trying to make app A have orange while app B is blue in which case... no idea.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Alomex]

It might still be downloading patches. I bought a laptop with Windows Vista version 1.0 a few years back and for the first two months every time it rebooted after a blue screen of death (which was quite often) it installed massive patches. At the end of that period the machine ran much faster and the BSODs went away. Vista was still a craptastic product nonetheless.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Missing.Matter]

4) At some point I somehow managed to launch the Finances application. Suddendly my screen is full of stock tickers. I don't know how to close it. Alt+f4 doesn't work. Esc doesn't work. Finally, Win+D seemed to work. I still don't know why that app started.

Alt+f4 absolutely does work. I have to wonder about the truth of the rest of your statements now.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Whorhay]

Agreed, Alt+F4 has always worked for me. What does tick me off though is that there doesn't seem to be any way to accomplish the same thing with the mouse. Occasionally I use my computer while holding my infant son, or heck eating a sandwich. Being forced to rely on keyboard shortcuts for functionality that has been available via the mouse for the last decade and a half is frustrating to say the least.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Annoying, yes, probably get patched though - they've been adding bits of customization back in ever since release. Guess they opted to release rather than push back for UI adjustments.

2) Was an odd choice, though some programs still left align which I see as a bigger problem. Inconsistencies are killer (see any Apple program on Windows...). It took me less than a day to get used to it.

3) IE was the only program I experienced this with. How many default apps are you using? There's no Metro file explorer and no desktop version of many Metro programs, so this decision (while sometimes annoying) makes sense.

4) It started because you opened it. Alt-F4 does work on metro apps. You can also close by dragging the window (by clicking the top edge) to the bottom of the screen.

5) RDP went through a lot of updates in Windows 8, so this is just a matter of the clients not yet supporting the changes..

6) "It's slow. Reboot seems to take like 5 minutes."

On a decent machine Win8 is faster than Win7 for startup/shutdown/restart and basically everything else. On the three machines i've used with SSD, a full restart from desktop to login screen (and desktop again if I factor out time to type in the password) was faster than getting through the bios bootup screen. I don't know what you did to your machine, but you did something...

Aside from 5 I don't see how any of these could be affecting your productivity much unless you are some super human that needs a perfect Zen state surrounded by total silence to succeed at your job. I was pretty much back at 98% productivity within a few days of installing Win8 and at this point aside from a few things they're fixing in 8.1 I do most things faster/easier than on Win7 or Win2k.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Zarhan]

On a decent machine Win8 is faster than Win7 for startup/shutdown/restart and basically everything else. On the three machines i've used with SSD, a full restart from desktop to login screen (and desktop again if I factor out time to type in the password) was faster than getting through the bios bootup screen. I don't know what you did to your machine, but you did something...

The workstations in question are actually running on a centralized HyperV server (accessed with thin clients or via RDP). So the hardware is actually *identical* to the previous Win 7 deployment.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Missing.Matter]

Move your mouse to the top of the screen until it looks like a hand. Click, and you will be able to drag the window around. If you drag it to the bottom of the screen and let go, it will be closed.

I usually disagree with people when they say that UI elements in Windows 8, but this is one where there really truely is no help to steer you to finding this. I think this is because the preferred way to close metro apps is to simply leave them (via start button), and let the Windows memory manager handle their lifecycle.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Your productivity has plummeted because you can't use "proper" coloured themes. What. What kind of "work" are you doing again?
2) If you've lost "hours" alt-tabbing then you don't seem to adapt very well to new situations seeing how much time you'd have to spend with Win8 in order to be able to waste hours simply alt-tabbing. If you were to learn using a new interface (say KDE), would it take you almost half a year to get acquainted?
3) Yes, which however you can, you know... change?! As if you don't have to change the default associations in previous versions anyway if you wanted to use non-MS apps.
4) That's a blatant lie and I'm calling you out on this. Alt-F4 DOES work. Seeing that you have lost "hours" on productivity and not having spend 3 minutes learning how the Metro UI operates (you know... just in case) makes your whole point either an inelegant excuse or a lie.
5) That's probably a problem with your system. Then again, whatever you done at (1) might be the cause.
6) If the reboot takes 5 minutes this indicates a problem with your configuration (again). Windows 8 is very fast in starting/stopping scenarios, especially when combined with UEFI and SSD (seeing as how they wanted to be partially a tablet OS). It also amazes me how you didn't even bother checking whether this behaviour is natural or not and why Microsoft or any other company would ever release an OS that takes 5 minutes to reboot, but you still report it as a trait of Windows 8 nevertheless. Unless you lie again that is.

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[cbhacking]

Alt-F4 works perfectly well for Finance (or any other Metro app). Not sure how you managed to mess that up, but I use that shortcut regularly.
The mouse action to close a Metro app is not terribly unintuitive, though (drag from the top edge of the screen to the bottom).

Oh no you....did...n..t.

[WaffleMonster]

Damn... a start button that goes to the start screen is like Coca Cola running TV ads about helping people to not be fat. A breathtaking slap in the face.

The real insanity.....

[whoever57]

Metro interface on Windows server 2012.

Re:The real insanity.....

[stiggle]

Fortunately you can do most of the stuff on Server 2012 without the GUI installed, or remotely and so not have to go anywhere near the abomination of their UI.

Seriously - who puts a Touch based UI on a server?

Multiple Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

have multiple windows from a single app

Sweet. Now, make that multiple windows from multiple apps, and you have one happy customer.

Oh wait... didn't we have that up to Windows 7 already?

Awesome!

[smash]

Keep "fixing" the minor stuff the plebs whine so hard about whilst missing the point (Metro is shit, and will continue to be shit on desktop). Windows is already down to 25% of web traffic, the sooner they fuck it up so bad businesses abandon it the better.

:)

Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[tepples]

third option : move to a better/faster/more secure OS : OSX or Linux.

Some Windows users rely on applications that don't work in Wine and either aren't ported to Mac OS X or Linux or require a repurchase for use on another platform. I'm under the impression that people who give suggestions on how to fix Windows are trying to help users like these, recognizing that replacing their current computer with a Mac or a PC that supports Linux isn't the best choice for everyone.

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[Vanderhoth]

recognizing that replacing their current computer with a Mac or a PC that supports Linux isn't the best choice for everyone.

Although I tend to agree with this, I also feel that if Windows 8 is causing such a hassle, as been described all over the interwebs, it's probably going to save you a lot more headaches in the long run. Learning Windows 8 is pretty much learning a new OS for a lot of people and if you're going to have to learn something new you might as well learn something that's free, not going to lock you down (like with Win RT) and will work the way you want.

Most apps people think they need windows for will run in WINE or have equivalent free versions. I made the switch shortly before Win 7 was release. I had XP on a new laptop, which had a free upgrade to Vista, which completely buggered the whole thing. I used the Win 7 developer preview until they revoked it and decided to give Linux a try. I had dabbled in various distros before that, but never made the change because I was always going back to windows to run something because I knew how and it was convenient. There were some significant challenges learning Linux when I first made the switch, but there isn't anything now that I can't do on my home Linux machines that I can't do on my work machine, I use windows at work because that's what the company mandates.

Since I've made the switch everyone I use to provide windows support to, (in-laws, wife, parents, siblings and several less technical friends) has also switched with no issues. I'm actually starting to feel a little lonely, I haven't been asked for help in a few months. In stead I keep hearing about how well things are working.

So getting back to the point. Based on my insignificant anecdotal experiences switching to Linux (I've set everyone up with Ubuntu, although I use both Ubuntu and Linux Mint) can actually be easier for a lot of people than switching to Windows 8.

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[JDG1980]

Most apps people think they need windows for will run in WINE or have equivalent free versions.

I checked the compatibility list for WINE recently, and it's seriously lacking. Microsoft Office 2013, and the 64-bit version of Office 2010, are listed as "garbage". Even 32-bit Office 2010 is no better than "silver" for most apps, and that's a generous assessment; major chunks of functionality are broken. Photoshop CS6 is "gold", which sounds good, but according to the description, the brush tools don't work, and "Most of the time, when I click and drag, it will register the click, and draw a dot, but will not register the drag and only draw that dot." This isn't going to be very appealing to most users. All versions of AutoCAD from 2009 onward are "garbage".

And, no, suggesting knockoffs like OpenOffice or GIMP is not an acceptable solution.

Also, Linux font rendering is absolutely terrible, the worst I've ever seen. There is no way to make it look like it does with ClearType in Windows (and a couple years back, I tried very hard).

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[lp_bugman]

If you really need those tools. Then go ahead and run Windows. Most people don't need the Band name software. I have been happy using OpenOffice for many many years. It does what it needs to and it does it well. I just started using Google Docs and love the fact that all my docs are online and accessible all the time. ... Now a days most end users only need : 1) Web browser with fast java script, HTML5 and Flash, 2) Skype. 3) Media player (VLC) A good Linux distro will satisfy most end users. ...

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[Darinbob]

And such users will likely remain on XP or W7 forever.

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[tepples]

Unless they have to upgrade from Windows XP due to the coming end of life, or unless their Windows 7 PC breaks and the replacement runs Windows 8.

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[dbIII]

All versions of AutoCAD from 2009 onward are "garbage"

I'll second that - oh, you mean in linux - I thought you meant in general. Even qcad has an interface more like what people were used to with the earlier autocad interface.

Ultimately it's all about getting stuff done, so if the workflow that works best is with apps on one OS then that's the one you use. However wine, mono, virtualbox etc and a *nix machine sometimes do a better job delivering MS Windows apps to end users than a MS Windows machine. For example, an application that is only used by one person at a time but is used by several people - the MS windows solution is a hot seat or waste extra money on licences while a better solution is to stick it on a processing node and export it via X to people's desktop machines. Another example is things like older versions of AutoCAD that won't work on a 64bit copy of MS Windows - stick them on a VM on a fast box in the server room. People forget that there are MS Windows versions of X so you are not limited to local applications and the limits of that cheap laptop or whatever.
Also the gimp argument is getting very old, it has far more features than top level graphics designers expected in photoshop some time ago. For a lot of people and a lot of tasks it does the job. You don't need the newest photoshop to crop an image.

Win8.1 reminds me of the Blackberry Storm

[Gordo_1]

Anyone remember that phone? That's the one where Blackberry (RIM) decided to get in on the touchscreen craze by building a phone that tried to bridge the gap for users who preferred physical keyboards. In response to physical keyboard users who clamored for tactile feedback, they made the whole screen click when you pressed hard enough.

At the time, I thought to myself, "no, you idiots, an entire screen that clicks doesn't provide the same tactile feedback as individually raised keys that click under your fingers. What were you guys thinking when you came up with this partial solution to the wrong problem?"

This time around, I'm thinking to myself (and the Slashdot community), "no, you idiots, adding a start icon to the desktop so that users can get to Metro doesn't address the underlying problem that Metro is not appropriate on non-touchscreen desktop PCs. What were you guys thinking when you came up with this partial solution to the wrong problem?"

Deceptive linking

[John.Banister]

The link to Ars should have been in the first sentence, the sentence that begins with "Ars Technica has taken a look..." Having that link be one from Windows.com makes this entire story look like advertising.

Why, oh why

[drolli]

Windows 7 was a real step forward. A true sucesssor to XP. BTW. XP is still a perfectly fine OS. It runs fine with less than 2GB of HD and 256MB of ram (in a VM) and just works. Unless something forces me to use windows 8, i will switch to WIndows 7 when the XP support runs out an hope that 8 will be a lesson on what customers want in the same way Vista (shuffle features in the users back which are *just not ready*) or Windows 2000 (too little, too late) was.

Re:Why, oh why

[VortexCortex]

And I will continue to set my software's native EXE build targets to XP or higher, for as long as you both shall live. I now pronounce you, Man and Machine. You may fsck the drive.

Re:Why, oh why

[drolli]

You can take my installation cd from my cold, dead hands.

Re:Why, oh why

[strikethree]

Windows 7 was a real step forward. A true sucesssor to XP.

In some ways, yes. I appreciate the compositing and the greater stability. In some ways, no. I really dislike the higher latencies and the needlessly increased complexity for managing.

Wake me Up when win explorer gets tabbed browsing

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of adding crazy conceptual stuff, how about focusing on the basics like tabs in windows explorer? Nautilus has had them for eons, should have been added to win explorer right after web browsers showed how useful they were. (or before, because as you have to move files between tabs, they are even more useful in a file explorer)

Everyone I've ever seen use windows wastes hours navigating to the same folders over and over again... if MSFT can't even put 1 programmer for a few months on such a low hanging fruit improvement in terms of productivity, how can anyone expect them to come up with a reasonable, functional completely overhauled OS?

sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[tepples]

Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it. [...] The only way I even remotely get what I want (in the linux realm) is to use CentOS.

My solution to the Un(usabil)ity that Ubuntu 11.10 forced on me was to switch to Xfce. In Ubuntu, it's as easy as connecting to the Internet and running sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop.

Re:sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

sudo apt-get install kde4-desktop - It can be setup to look like any winblows system you want thanks to kdelook.org.

Re:sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux Mint is now the better choice.

Re:sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[Vanderhoth]

In Ubuntu, it's as easy as connecting to the Internet and running sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop.

That should be your sig. it's pretty catchy.

Re:sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[tepples]

Something like that was my sig once, back when the MyCleanPC troll was pasting his drivel.

--
Clean, precise, pangolin-powered. MyCleanPC.

Re:sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd probably be happy with any KDE based distro, such as Kubuntu. KDE is what Win 7 was trying to be.

Unless.....

[Anonymous Coward]

they allow me to boot to desktop and not their panel crap, I will never use Windows 8 at home or in our company.

Re:Wake me Up when win explorer gets tabbed browsi

[zwarte piet]

I like the idea of tabbed (why did I read 'stabbed'?) explorer windows. Never occurred to me somehow.

More than good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

"What most of us wanted back was the Start menu"

And this is why Windows will never catch up. And why eventually it will fade away as our generation grows old and leaves the workforce.

How can Microsoft innovate if what "most of us" want is the same old thing? It feels a bit like the educators who were fighting computers in the classroom in the 1980s and insisted that students only learn on manual typewriters.

I assure you that Microsoft spend millions of dollars on various iterations and on studies for usability testing. But that so many people rejected it even though if it can be scientifically proven to be better (through a repeatable study, that's how science works), I've come to the conclusion that customers don't know what they want and that Microsoft no longer has the clout to push the masses in the right direction. Maybe you'll listen to Apple instead? or maybe you'll just holler get-off-my-lawn for another 20 years until we stop listening to you?

Re:More than good enough

[JDG1980]

How can Microsoft innovate if what "most of us" want is the same old thing?

I don't want Microsoft to "innovate". The traditional Win95-derived interface is just about perfect for a desktop.

Re:More than good enough

[WaffleMonster]

And this is why Windows will never catch up. And why eventually it will fade away as our generation grows old and leaves the workforce.

How can Microsoft innovate if what "most of us" want is the same old thing? It feels a bit like the educators who were fighting computers in the classroom in the 1980s and insisted that students only learn on manual typewriters.

Its not about what your used to it is about what behavior is sane and what is insane. It is about making determinations based on MERIT.

I suspect you'll find covering the entire workspace just to launch an application or find a document just as nonsensical in the stoneage as it is in the spaceage. I don't much care what that interface *looks* like but it has to be sane and not obleterate all onscreen context in the process.

Simply making the classic change adverse argument is an exercise in making non-falsifiable statements. If the next version of windows is an abacus and I replayed your "change adverse" statement would it be any different? What it convey and more or less information? Without merit without discussing actual tradeoffs what information is being conveyed?

assure you that Microsoft spend millions of dollars on various iterations and on studies for usability testing. But that so many people rejected it even though if it can be scientifically proven to be better (through a repeatable study, that's how science works),

The real issue seems to me to be for years there are a lot of people who own computers only to check email and facebook and now they have more options that are a better fit for what they actually do...good for them...but these people while a huge group are not the entire constellation of those using computers. There are people who still need a sane UI environment to get shit done complete with programs encased in movable frames...goddamn I feel like such a dinosaur saying that.

I also disagree that this is about "science"... it was more about leveraging windows to help windows phone to improve market share in other areas. There is no technical reason they couldn't provide knobs to make everyone happy. They chose not to for political reasons as evidenced by shit they took away during early betas of W8.

Metro is about locking down the computing environment (You can't install a metro app yourself...you can only install a metro app from the MS mothership...oh I'm sorry that is such a dated term...I mean the future of all computing..."the cloud"...

Fads come and go ... this isn't an improvement or a reflection of "the future" or a better way... it is a POS forced upon the world for political reasons to make MS more money. A boiling frog on the road to the promised land of vendor locked down computation...our future...where a few control basically everything...like apple does with the iphone and google with everything else...

MS is finally realizing they left way too much value on the table in previous versions of windows and is now hard at work fixing that.

Re:More than good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't install a metro app yourself...you can only install a metro app from the MS mothership...oh I'm sorry that is such a dated term...I mean the future of all computing..."the cloud"...

Heh, funny thing, the desktop versions are still better than the 'app' versions. I thought I'd try the Skype app that came pre-installed, and it would not even start without a 'microsoft' (or hotmail or whatever) login, which I don't have and never will. So, two minutes later, I was happily Skyping away using the downloadable desktop version, and the Skype app was blown away.

Seriously, I have not found a single 'app' that is even close to as user friendly as the equivalent desktop software (at least for those of us using a keyboard and mouse), and most of them are decidedly user un-friendly (as in, "now what the f&$* do I do to get it to do <XYZ>??" and "how the h*%@ do I actually exit this mother f&@#$* again? No, I DON'T want you to run in the background, no I DON'T want to switch to another full-screen 'app', I just want you to GO AWAY! EXIT! LEAVE!! Just CLOSE, damn you, CLOSE!")

Ahem. Sorry about that. That was before I found and installed Classic Shell, of course, but the flashbacks can still be a little...overwhelming. ;o)

-CCarrot, anon to preserve mods

killing desktop apps in windows 9 will kill window

[Joe_Dragon]

killing desktop apps in windows 9 will kill windows and the EU and others may not let MS get away with app store only.

Grow a victory garden? Go to jail

[tepples]

We could all grow our own food, but we don't, and if we did it'd completely fuck up the entire economy.

And in some cases, people get threatened with jail time for growing vegetables in what Americans used to call a "victory garden".

power users, feh!

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how these self-styled power users like to complain and point out the flaws in the UI, when a simple keystroke is all they needed to know. I guess they're all too proud to google it.

"Windows Key-I — This pops up the new system tray, which slides in from the right. If you hit Space or Enter, the Metro control panel opens. If you hit Up then Enter, you can shut down the computer. (This is the fastest way to shut down or restart!)"

"Windows-Page Up — This switches which screen the Metro interface (i.e. the Start Screen and any Metro apps) appears on. The switch is very rapid (it’s kind of fun
to just hit Windows-Page Up over and over) Obviously, this is only useful if you have a multi-monitor setup."

Re:power users, feh!

[Darinbob]

There's also the main issue that all of these options are not obvious. This is not an early version of Linux intended only for power users. Windows was intended to be for lots of users including the technically incompetent. Navigating to the charms bar is not obvious, and that's easier than getting from there to the shutdown options. Trying to discover Windows+Key commands is just beyond the capacity for many users. Whereas start menu was easy, you just tell grandma "click here for everything".

Re:power users, feh!

[Nerdfest]

As far as I'm concerned, *all* the Linux desktops are now easier to use than Windows.

Re:power users, feh!

[Myopic]

Agreed, and this has been true since the middle of the Bush administration.

Dear Microsoft, Just Give us SHELL=

[istartedi]

Dear Microsoft, Please just give us SHELL= in a file someplace so that if people want to run a tablet interface on their PC or laptop they can do that (for testing purposes maybe, to see what their software or web site looks like on a tablet). For SHELL= allow variables of WIN7 METRO or a path to a custom shell. This was pretty much how Win 3.x seemed to work. IIRC it even worked in Win95 where you could use SHELL=PROGMAN to get the 3.x look.

So there you go. Dust off SHELL= and for bonus points make it hot-swapable without rebooting. If you were really cool you'd even give us back the PROGMAN option just for grins and giggles.

If the shell is no longer a clear-cut component that you can easily separate from the OS and its services, then I don't know what to say...

No start menu = FAIL.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

WTF is wrong with the Microsoft staff? Difficulty finding own rear end with flashlight and a map? Nose in front of face just too darned elusive?

I honest-to-god read some tripe from a Microsoftie that said (and I paraphrase), "We hear that people want the start button back and we're trying to understand what they mean by that."

Oh. God.

We had a menu system that worked for years. It's used by Apple, Linux, et. al. to good effect. It provided useful, meaningful, heirarchical prompts to make up for the weaknesses in human memory. It did not need change or improvement. Indeed, it would be hard to see how you would improve on it from a human factors standpoint.

So, start button without the menu. I can only stand back in astonishment and repeat WTF!

Re:No start menu = FAIL.

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume that's brought to us by the same school of decisionmakers who decided that the Ribbon should be compulsory in Office apps, despite all the hate (which it had in spades, right from the beginning, and still has).

Menu technology was perfected 30 years ago, but somehow Microsoft just can't stop jerking it (and us) around. Remember when you could detach your menu bar in Word from the top of the window, and put it slap in the middle of the text you were editing? Wasn't that useful. Customisable menus? Great idea, then you'll never be able to tell anyone else how to find a function! Then there were the infamous "menus with disappearing options"...

Just stop it already. There's plenty of things in Windows (and Office, for that matter) they could improve, but instead they spend time making life harder for all their users. That's not nice, it's not useful, and I struggle to see how it's even profitable.

Re:No start menu = FAIL.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you expect a different outcome when Julie Larsson-Green is the head of Windows division?

This is the very same woman who had pushed for 'Metro in all devices'.

Oh, and did I mention that she is highly unqualified? Look up her CV. Must have done plenty of brown-nosing on Ballmer.

Henceforth every decision made regarding Windows will be a political/marketing one, rather than a technical/usability one.

Did I read that right?

[wcrowe]

"On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously."

Uhh, did I read that right? Is this Windows 8.1 or 2.1?

MacOSX has Overlapping Windows its the Anti-Metro

[Anonymous Coward]

1984 - Apple introduced the "Overlapping Window" design.

Until that time there was a raging debate over "Adjacent" or "Stacked" tiles and windows.. same terminology.. only with "Character Windows".

Eventually the "fluid" choice won out and massive amounts of people agreed "Overlapping" was better with limited screen-estate.

Microsoft just has internal Ego battles.. they don't rationally think about anything any more.

New Manager has to put their mark on everything regardless.. personal branding.

Re:Why don't you concentrate on the IMPORTANT thin

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really sad listening to right wing talk radio or news, seeing them trying so, so hard to make that story get some traction. They're desperate to get *something* to stick to the president, some scandal that people actually care about and nothing is working.

captcha: agitate

To placate the "Principaled" Prima Donnas

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't they just release "Xbox for the PC" as a separate OS and let the rest of use get on with our lives?

Windows 8 is an aborted childish tantrum is every way.

Some big wig got his way with the company and threw a fit..

Pokki, Pokki, Pokki

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have not tried it, Pokki, makes Windows 8 perfectly useable, has an option to correct almost every annoyance.

Yep

[Sycraft-fu]

When it does, you suddenly stop hating it. Stardock has a program that makes Metro apps do just that, called Modern Mix. They go from annoying to being just any other program when you use it. Not that there are really any amazing Metro apps, but they become just programs like any other with this and you can use them without any issue.

Now given that Stardock was able to implement this rather quickly and easily as a third party, this means there's no real technical reason they are full screen only in 8, it was a marketing decision. On a desktop system, the desktop should have the place of primacy, and it doesn't in 8. You have to knock on a couple of 3rd party tool (Start 8 and Modern Mix) to get that which is silly.

Re:Yep

[LodCrappo]

Agreed, once I found Modern Mix, I liked Win8 a whole lot more.
Now I get the nice new stuff in Win8 and my machine is still pretty much normal, as in the interface doesn't get in my way or annoy me at all.
It sucks that such functionality is not built in though.

MSFT is being quite arrogant

[MTEK]

Vista was supposed to be their New Coke moment and Win7 made it look like they cared. For many business and power users, however, Windows 8 is like an out of left-field can of dog shit. And so the good news is that Microsoft has been listening to our feedback and a new flavor of shit is around the corner?

Re:MSFT is being quite arrogant

[VortexCortex]

Vista was the New Coke. Win8 is like Crystal Pepsi.

Re:MSFT is being quite arrogant

[VortexCortex]

implying Lime Windows is next, clearly.

Slow Boot from EULA screen

[bfree]

Have they added an option to let you get into your board firmware without having to first agree to their EULA? Thanks to their Win8 compliance specs if you don't want to agree to it your only choice in practice is to remove the boot drive to get into the firmware menu (voiding the warranty on your new laptop).

If it takes 5 minutes to reboot...

[Sycraft-fu]

Your system has a problem. I have 8 on a few systems (what with being a Windows sysadmin) and none take near that long. My home system takes 20ish seconds, but it is a SSD with UEFI boot which makes it pretty speedy. My desktop at work takes about 40 seconds, the VMs take about 60 seconds. This is time form me hitting restart until the login screen is displayed.

So, in the event you are continuing to use Windows 8, or even if you aren't, you really should troubleshoot that system because it isn't the OS that is related to the boot time. It boots fairly quickly in most situations, and really quickly when given new hardware (since it can UEFI boot).

Not even nice try

[Anonymous Coward]

Until that Metro junk is able to be fully disabled so the OS will work like Windows 7 I'm not buying. I REFUSE to use a mobile OS made for touch screen devices on my desktop.

Aero is there

[Sycraft-fu]

Glass isn't. Aero, the desktop composition engine, is present in 8 and is more powerful than ever. If you give it a WDDM 1.2 driver it is really fast and capable... and then it gets used to composite ugly, flat, graphics. Aero Glass is the neat transparent effect that Windows 7 had, and that's what they took away, for whatever reason.

If you want that kind of thing back, Stardock has a beta of Windowblinds for Windows 8 and it can do that kind of thing.

This is the end-result of greed

[Anonymous Coward]

The most instructive lesson from all of this is how a successful company can be utterly corrupted and destroyed from within, by greed, intimidation and arrogance.

Are you a giver or a taker?

Captcha: getting

Re:Dear Microsoft, Just Give us SHELL=

[chuckinator]

Ah, the days of .ini files. They were a mess of .ini files littered all over your C: drive, but they were STILL better than drilling into the BS that is the registry hives.

So it's basically exactly the same as windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

except it has an app store and an interface that metro interface no one asked for or wanted.

A mainstream tiling window manager?

[zsazsa]

On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side.

This is sounding a lot like a tiling window manager to me.

Re:A mainstream tiling window manager?

[VortexCortex]

BSODs! Seize Him!

Just avoid it

[rossdee]

When you go to buy a new computer, ask for one with Windows 7
There are a number of manufactirers that will happily oblige you.

"You guys" gaining popularity, ugh.

[jabberw0k]

It seems that a majority of people under 40 seem to think that "you" is singular and "you guys" is plural -- even when one or more of the "guys" is actually female. When did it become acceptable to treat a lady as if she were a man? Why aren't the feminists up in arms about this? It is disgusting to take a date to a restaurant and have the waiter ask, "Where would you guys like to sit?" -- I am constantly having to correct her, "Excuse me, my date is a lady, not a guy." Good grief.

The new Start button will be 1st thing I disable

[elabs]

I can't wait for Windows 8.1 but I am not a fan of the old Start button. Thank goodness they aren't bringing back the whole Start menu. Yuck!

WHY IS THIS MODDED UP????

[pablo_max]

It is complete and total bullshit. Why do mac fan boys continue to claim that OSX is more secure when time and time again this is has been proven false.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9072959/Mac_easiest_to_hack_says_10_000_winner

Re:WHY IS THIS MODDED UP????

[Windowser]

It is complete and total bullshit. Why do mac fan boys continue to claim that OSX is more secure when time and time again this is has been proven false.

Me, a Mac fanboy ?
Look, I have an Android phone, I run Linux on all my servers and laptops.
I was given an iPad and I sold it because I refused to have a computing device I could not do WTF I want with it.Same reason I will never buy an iPhone
Hell, my Android phone is a Google Nexus because I want to have total control over it.
If you think I'm an Apple fanboy, you should go read the definition.
b.t.w. OSX may not be totally secure, but it's sure as hell way more secure than Windows.

Re:WHY IS THIS MODDED UP????

[pablo_max]

citation please.
You are completely full of shit.
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/security-it/windows-versus-mac-which-is-more-secure-20120510-1ye85.html

Re:WHY IS THIS MODDED UP????

[dbIII]

An article that spends half it's length setting up a new personal definition of "secure" just so it can skew a comparison is a waste of everyone's time. Currently there is a malware plague beyond the dreams of bad SF infesting operating systems from only one vendor, everything else is a barely noticable blip. More "secure" or not, there are definitely a lot of compromised MS machines out there while everything else is rare, so I consider the definition of "secure" in the article to be functionally useless, misleading and not enough to refute what the poster above wrote. To write that someone is "full of shit" and then respond with a link to such a weak argument to back yourself up is certainly ironic.

Big monitor is good for drag/drop too

[rsborg]

Even on my desktop, with my 20" monitor, I always run anything maximized

You do. Others don't, and they have good reasons. One of them is that switching between maximized windows of multiple applications involved in a given task is slower than switching with your eyes.

This is scratching the surface. Basic windowing concepts like "cut/paste" and "drag/drop" are severely hamstrung when you have a UI that forces all apps to be fullscreen - clearly in the case of a size-constrained phone, this is a reasonable tradeoff (and even the original iphone had drag/drop to rearrange icons and such).

For a desktop/workstation, mandatory full-screen-only mode is beyond useless. It's a downgrade, and robs the user of a major portion of the utility of a modern PC... with no reasonable justification nor trade-off in other features or cost.

Apps assume screen size never changes

[tepples]

Fingers on 7-10" tablets are stuck at a blob of 6 mm. But fingers on 4" phones are also stuck at a blob of 6 mm. So that doesn't stop a tablet from showing two phone-sized apps side by side. What stops it is the fact that phone and tablet applications are allowed to assume that the screen's area won't change after installation.

iTunes is broken in Wine

[tepples]

Most apps people think they need windows for will run in WINE or have equivalent free versions.

The iTunes application runs on a Mac, but the Windows version does not run in Wine. The AppDB entry for the latest version states that when the user starts it, it refuses to open and instead claims it needs to be reinstalled.

If only one component is hiccuping

[tepples]

Session save and restore means the session gets serialized to persistent storage and deserialized after a restart, and it is assumed that the process of serializing and deserializing would give the application a chance to sanitize the loaded data. Besides, even if one application or operating system component is hiccuping hard enough to break its own session save and restore, other applications might still restore correctly.

Still not interested

[gweihir]

Win8 is a lemon made by people that have zero clue about good UI design. Earlier versions, like Win7, were severely outdated in comparison to others, but at least reasonable usable for single tasks. They were also basically copied from the competition. No surprise that as soon as Microsoft tries to be "innovative", they mess it up badly.

Ran out of popcorn but enjoyed every second!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing beats a good flame-bait MS article on Slashdot. Thank you all for brightening my day!

Angla lingvo estas malbona

[mx b]

Angla lingvo estas malbona! Windows 8 gajnas la OS milito!

false

[Anonymous Coward]

tsrs could hook the hardware or software timer interupt, not just the keyboard interupt. this allows for "task switching" no different from "multi-tasking", except in protected mode the cpu has a task state register and descriptors etc, and does the "task switching" for you.

oh yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Micro$haft worked so hard to make everyone believe that multitasking (and "preemptive multitasking" etc) was the result of some heroic programming effort, when intel had protected mode in the 286 and hardware virtual memory support in the 386
!

how long did it take ms to hack up some software to implement the new instructions... several processor generations

Woohoo! Multiple windows side by side!

[iliketrash]

"It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side."

WFT? Is this for real? Was this not possible before? Surely the implication of this statement that this was not possible before is wrong.

Re:Dear Microsoft, Just Give us SHELL=

[Anonymous Coward]

HKCU Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\Current Version\Winlogon

Shell = path

Improvement?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you how to improve it: Allow me full control of it. No, I don't want two wasted clicks before I can choose an application: Start, Programs.

Windows and Agile

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I was appalled with Server 2012 and microsoft implementing Metro on it...what a huge mistake. Sure I can rip the UI right off and run powershell, but really if I wanted to use CLI, I would use Linux(Microsoft make your OS more UNIX-like then we'll talk about using your CLI bastardization). I use Windows for AD, Exchange, and other nefarious purposes and it was disappointing to say the least. But they are following an Agile methodology and many will not understand that. Windows 8.2 will probably bring back the start menu proper, hell even this release could still do it. Regardless, microsoft better get their shit together.

Discontinued computers in favor of non-computers

[tepples]

Part of the problem is that users, especially tecchie users, insist on seeing the smartphone/tablet as a computer.

Except laptop manufacturers discontinued 10" computers at the end of 2012 in favor of what you call non-computers. That's part of why techies have been trying to press tablets into service as computer replacements.

Still Metro?

[Anonymous Coward]

No thank you.

Morons

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Microsoft,

Either give us back the start menu that we like or you can stick your operating system up your arse.

Yours,

The entire Microsoft user base.

OMG, there is a SIMPLE fix

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want the Windows7 look, with a Start button AND Start menu, stop bitching and install Classic Shell!

Re:Wake me Up when win explorer gets tabbed browsi

[neminem]

Yep. Hadn't occurred to me either, until I decided I couldn't stand fighting with Win7's native explorer file manager over which one of us would get to control how it looked and behaved, and looked for an alternative. They all had tab support. I couldn't believe I'd never thought of that. Now I can't live without it. It really is quite handy in all kinds of circumstances.

Government-granted monopoly; interoperability

[tepples]

The best way to use them is to learn not to use them. Learn to use their superior counterparts that run on non-toy operating systems.

Which is sort of difficult if the publisher of the industry-standard application enforces patents, user interface copyrights, or anticircumvention rights against would-be developers of "superior counterparts". (I can provide examples of each of these three upon request.) It's hard even if the publisher of the industry-standard application just refuses to cooperate in documenting any file formats or protocols that would allow it to interoperate with "superior counterparts", which was true of Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office for a long time.

Re:Government-granted monopoly; interoperability

[chopthechops]

I'd like to see a shift in thinking away from perpetuating dependance on proprietary file formats (particularly Microsoft Office document formats) where there there's no business case for such dependance. There is definitely a lot more cross-platform support for popular software these days. Unfortunately it seems to me that a lot of IT people use the "Microsoft = Industry Standard = only option" mantra mostly due to ignorance or rhe desire to take what they believe is the path of least pain (to implement and support). I say short term gain = long term pain.

So Tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

There are problems with the UI experience especially for beginners; seniors and very basic email and browse desktop users find themselves lost on Win 8 without being able to navigate. It's tough on those who use PC's very infrequently but when they do, have memorized sequential tasks in order without internalizing to the point of being able to generalize from the various analogies...really, the funny thing is that Win 8's features actually benefit power users (at least, adaptable power users) at the expense of rank amateurs for whom e-mailing one or two family members and maybe printing a recipe is computing, and power users harping over the missing start button (there is a start button, it's just invisible) and start menu (which is just a maximized one now if using a desktop, which makes sense in fact, since and I've never seen a single user, power or otherwise, interact with any application other than the start 'menu' with the start menu open, so all the little branching folders is stupid, faster to open them at once). A couple of legit gripes are addressed - smaller tile sizes (scrolling is no better than branching) - and removal of silly restrictions around the over-inflated 'metro' applications (as we see 1080p and better screens, we're going to see side by side move to windowing on android, no need to dumb down the windows desktop to keep up with less capable tech), but all in all, windows 8 is a power users OS, it just requires you to a) give up stubborn political ideas about m$, which right or wrong, have no bearing on an honest evaluation of their product at the user level and b) learn new stuff, like you did to become a power desktop user in the first place, but are avoiding again.

This is not unlike people who avoided all gui's for a while back when, and stuck with the command line interface because they became wizards and felt hot-shit about it, the Win 8 update makes sense in a world of moving between 4" and 30" screens simulatenously. Personally, I think power users are bitter because just as linux caught up, Windows changed the game.

Apple's proving to be a bit of a fad, and if there is legitmate competitor out there, it will be android on the desktop with windowing. Which people will take up wholeheartedly and should, and which will not only not have a start menu, but a full size start screen(s), but will never, ever, be criticized for it, because while there's good reason to despise MS, it's silly to do it by inventing criticism of a product. Makes them look nimble and you stubborn, not the other way around.

Now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Start button is back...good. Now we need Microsoft to restore the Start menu, bring back Legacy support, restore Aero and kill that monstrosity called Metro. People don't want to use desktop computers as giant tablets. Only Ballmer is capable of such idiocy.

Now...

[MainCore_01]

Start button is back...good. Now we need Microsoft to restore the Start menu, bring back Legacy support, restore Aero and kill that monstrosity called Metro. People don't want to use desktop computers as giant tablets. Only Ballmer is capable of such idiocy.

Microsoft just has to wait a year

[partofthepuzzle]

The 2nd rev of the Intel Haswell SOC is due in 6-8 months and will enable tablets that weigh 1.5 lbs, get 10 hours of battery life, & cost $400. Yep, just like an iPad! Except that it will run full Windows and all the apps that you already own and have invested years in learning. Basically, they'll be Surface like devices (you'll want a detachable keyboard and touchpad when using Windows desktop apps): only lighter, longer lasting battery life and *much* cheaper. Plus the benefits of choice that come with having dozens of manufacturers producing them.

Microsoft historically has played the waiting game very well but this time they were just too impatient: they should have simply made Metro optional on non-tablet PCs for now, kept refining it and avoided this entire mess with Win 8. Metro just had to be ready when people start needing a touch interface on Windows. It hasn't happened yet, but it will definitely happen.

Good one

[GGMethos]

Very Funny, Microsoft.