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George Zimmerman Acquitted In Death of Trayvon Martin
theodp writes "Following nearly three weeks of testimony, a jury of six women in the George Zimmerman trial has found the former neighborhood watch volunteer not guilty of second-degree murder. He was also found not guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter, which the jury also weighed."
I'm amazed the Media didn't manage to convict him, despite how hard they tried.
People coming from different backgrounds bring different perspectives to the Trayvon Martin shooting. Everyone feels they are right, and everyone feels strongly. Is it possible for commenters to keep that in mind? I see an early post opportunity, so I figure I'll offer the proposal.
He who has the gun, has the power and the right to do whatever the fuck he wants.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
When will the darkies learn to stop trying?
The united states is officially a lost cause. No justice in this country anymore.
Does anyone know?
Has Slashdot become a politics/crime board now?
I'm not surprised that the final verdict is not guilty on any count, since the state didn't show proof of guilt.
I am surprised the jury members didn't cave in to the threats of violence and find him guilty of the manslaughter that was thrown in at the end.
Good for them for doing their jobs.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Does anyone know if the result was related to the "Stand Your Ground" law? I'm having trouble finding a good answer.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I normally dislike those people who whine about this or that story being on Slashdot, because there is generally some kind of technological thread to it or else social issues that technical people need to be aware of.
However there seems to be NO reason to have this story on Slashdot. There's no technological angle. There's nothing in the trying of this that really relates to technology in any kind of larger context. So come on, leave general news on whatever sites people use for news and try to keep at least some shred of technology within Slashdot stories.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The whole hinged on the who was the aggressor, who through the first punch. The prosecution never proved a scenario where George was the aggressor. Case closed.
Your right of self-defense against evil forces has been preserved!
It is time to stop the Africanization of America!
Disclaimer: I am not white.
there is no, zero, absolutely none, relationship between this story and between anything even remotely connected to geek culture.
this is a fucking pop news fad meme based on a criminal legal case, one amongst millions of such legal cases that occur all the time.
unless you are initerested in criminology, you are stupid for caring about this and stupid for following it.
go follow something fucking important. stop wasting your life.
It's better to let a guilty man go free then to put an innocent man behind bars.
Die like the cancer you are.
TSIA...WTF...
I think it boils down to presumption of innocence. There was not enough concrete evidence of exactly what happened to find him guilty. I suspect he committed manslaughter, and that Trayvon escalated the situation, and that under our legal system Zimmerman should not be found guilty. Given the uncertainty, it is an accurate reflection of our preference to let a guilty man go free than to convict an innocent man.
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Is there some kind of tech issue that makes this relevant to Slashdot? It's bad enough that the trial took over CNN and ever political blog on the planet, but Slashdot now? Was Zimmerman an open-source advocate or something?
It's disgusting that the people calling for Zimmerman to be found not guilty are the same people who disregarded the fact that Trayvon Martin was never given a trial, for whatever alleged crimes George Zimmerman suspected him of. Trayvon never had the opportunity to defend himself in a court of law. He never had the chance to defend himself against whatever charges George Zimmerman not only found him guilty of, but sentenced him to death because of. A 17 year old kid is dead, and no one is going to be held accountable. Apparently we all now have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner, as long as we say we were defending ourselves after the fact. Even if we were the ones who initiated the confrontation in the first place. This case sets a very dangerous precedent.
Never again. Fuck this site and its divergence from 'News for Nerds' and 'Stuff that Matters'.
Here is an IT angle
Look just two stories down or so on the main, page, that's already on Slashdot.
That's what is really vexing me, the only possible technical link is already present and under heavy discussion (though of course it devolved into mindless bickering immediately). So we did NOT need this new story that it merely here to let people bitch one way or the other.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And this trial proves it. If he didn't have the gun, he would never have been stalking the victim.
If you followed any law blogs that actually watched the trial, they seemed to generally agree the state had a very weak case at best, and the witnesses they called often help the defendant far more than the prosecution. So its not surprise he was acquitted.
George Zimmerman Acquitted In Death of Trayvon Martin
Whistleblowing IT Director Fired By FL State Attorney
Skype Overload Interrupts Zimmerman Trial
Judge Rules Defense Can Use Trayvon Martin Tweets
Zimmerman Charged With 2nd-Degree Murder
NBC Apologizes For Editing Zimmerman 911 Call
Forensic Experts Say Screams Were Not Zimmerman's
the blacks have too much power. it is time to shut them down. they don't deserve it.
I'll tell you what bothered me most about this trial. There's a reason that Zimmerman went free immediately, and no charges were pressed. The evidence backed his story. It was obvious to all those investigating and the DA, etc, that it was a case of self defense. It wasn't because of a bunch of racist law enforcement officers or prosecutors that tried to sweep it under the rug or somehow distort the facts that Zimmerman wasn't charged. The media and politicians decided to make it into something else. Pictures of a smiling 12 year old Martin were shown continuously by the media. Obama said it "could have been my son" that was killed. Special prosecutors were brought in to try and make something happen. When these prosecutors rested their case, then tried to get anything to stick (homicide, even "child abuse") the underlying desperation and total lack of a case was made even more apparent.
It ticks me off that Martin was exploited by news organizations and politicians to make some sort of cause to rally behind or push agendas.
Better known as 318230.
All the Hans Reiser's out there are dying to hear "Not Guilty" when their turn comes....
Seriously, technology and the ubiquitous nature of social media and electronic communications means pretty much anything newsworthy has a technological component to it.
I agree that this case is something you'd put in a broad category of "general news", but there's probably some interesting science behind the analysis of the events that unfolded, at the very least? But perhaps more relevant to the Slashdot crowd, we've all been exposed to a pretty wide variety of opinions on the case thanks to being online.
In a time not that long ago, you'd watch the nightly news to learn about a shooting incident like this, and your concept of "how people felt about it" was probably based on what your immediate family said, what your good friends said, and some random comments from co-workers or fellow students. Now, you get on Facebook or what-not and you're easily able to skim hundreds or thousands of opinions about it, coming from all ages, both genders, and multiple ethnic and economic groups.
To me, that's kind of an amazing thing. It may not change the outcome, but hopefully it enlightens more people. If nothing else, this case made me think a little bit deeper about the whole "stand your ground" concept and where it could become a murky, grey area if one hoped to use it as a defense in a life-threatening situation. In a more general sense, it reminded me of how many people draw conclusions based on details that really are just extraneous noise when trying to determine guilt of a specific crime. (By that, I'm talking about both sides .... everything from Martin's alleged marijuana usage, "thug" lifestyle and theories of why he was carrying the bag of Skittles to assumptions of Zimmerman's character based on his ethnicity, choice to act in a role of a security type person for the neighborhood, and so on.)
A criminal trial should be based purely on the evidence and facts ... not painting subjective pictures of the types of people involved. But obviously, the news media realizes all of that gets "eyeballs" of more viewers and drums up more interest and emotions so the outcome of the case will be followed more closely.
As all of us contribute to the rapid-fire dissemination of information through technology and computers, I hope we keep all of this in mind.
...am looking forward to some cheap stereos and other 'grey market' items for the next six months, after the inevitable riots.
-Styopa
Maybe they'll give him George Zimmer's job and spin it as the suit helped get him acquitted :)
I'm sure it'd synergise well with the new direction the company is heading in.
The most striking thing to me has always been that both actors would have been within their rights, under "Stand Your Ground," to attack the other.
The subject is referring to the doorway gag.
.: Semper Absurda
after 10 years of lurking on slashdot almost daily, you've finally driven me away. the degree to which this article is off topic is enough to reduce your traffic by 1 user. ironically, this is the first time i've felt the need to post.
Remember that they looked for people who hadn't followed the leadup to this a ton. Not everyone gives a fuck what is in the media. Also it turns out in most cases jurors do a reasonable job of following what the judge tells them. The judge tells them what evidence they can consider, and what is required for a charge, and they usually listen to that, at least reasonably well.
The system is far from perfect, but they really do try and get people who have little to no knowledge about a case beforehand, and they try to instruct those people as to what is and is not to be considered.
Also the prosecution screwed up their case at several points, and that makes a big difference as well.
Remember that while the rest of the world (that was interested) was following the media accounts, the jurors were following only what happened in the courtroom.
I'M OFFENDED ....that this is being posted on Slashdot.
Seriously?
It's difficult to find justice anywhere; even the most basic tasks and functions are grueling burdens weighted down by subjectivity. My opinion? This was a mistrial from the very start. We shouldn't assume that people are impartial because they said so, frankly the way impartiality is decided is arbitrary. There isn't a group of 12 people who are not going to be influenced by the media. The cable news, radio, newspapers aren't serving functions anymore they are only in it for the number of views they receive. Whether we're seeing the anger, gloating, or misery the only winners are the people being paid to deliver it. The only thing that true is that George is never going to have a normal life ever again and that a 17-year old boy is dead. Peoples' lives were destroyed. It's a horrible story that will never get the reflection or peace that it needs. It can always get worse, and likely, it will get worse.
or officials want. Juries tend to see through the attempts to impose social justice over legal justice. This trial became a farce when the prosecution was allowed to change their charge on the fly, worse they almost got totally into silly land on trying to change up the charges.
Now comes the fun part, will the Feds get involved directly and attempt a hate crime charge?
Zimmerman was an over reactive wanna be cop that created a situation that got out of his control. Frankly if Tray had survived I would have expected him to use the same defense. Still witnesses and crime scene evidence were not in favor of the prosecution and the local sheriff was right in not trying to field a case that could not be one.
We the people won, both Zimmerman and Martin lost. We won because the law was upheld. Martin paid the ultimate price and Zimmerman will pay the rest of his.
The tragedy beyond this one death is the number of people who died and their cases will never be given the same attention.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I don't understand the fact why this got any attention in media on TV, but this is Slash Dot! This has nothing to do with anything that is concerned to be nerdy!!!
To anyone who is upset that this story popped up despite not strictly relating to computers, three things:
One: why didn't you stop it?
Two: Slashdot's motto isn't "News for linux, news that linuxes." Other nerds have different interests in you. You should realize this by now.
Three: If you don't care, go back in your browser. You do not need to click on every link on slashdot! DO NOT CLICK ON THE ONES YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT!
Now whose side will YOU be on?
great success for god !
the table is turning around. Game over. Time to meet your fate. Africanization of America will be stopped.
Three: If you don't care, go back in your browser. You do not need to click on every link on slashdot! DO NOT CLICK ON THE ONES YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT!
This is the internet, man. Everyone's gotta have an opinion... and worse, they're only a click away from putting it on the screens of thousands. Your advice is falling on deaf ears. Hey look everyone -- a single mother! (grabs pitchfork and runs out of the comment thread)
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
America lynches another person simply because he was born with a black skin, and the usual racist filth punch the air with joy. Why the celebration, I don't know, for in America's history I can't think of one occasion when a person responsible for lynching a dark-skinned Human was ever punished in court, and America has seen the lynching of tens of thousands of black people since slavery was abolished.
Here's a bit of history for you racist filth. In 1855, a young girl in the USA strikes her rapist on the head and unintentionally kills him. She was pregnant with the rapists third child (all a result of rape) at the time of the rape, and her issue was not the rape but the fact that her pregnancy had her feeling ill and incapable of sex at the time. She was 14 at the time, and her rapist was in his 70s. For you dirty f***ing animals cheering the failure to convict that racist butcher Zimmerman, I'll complete the details of this little piece of American history.
The child, of course, was a black slave, and her owner was another 'Zimmerman'. Your filthy Yank government took her to court, accepted her story in its entirety, told her that as a black person she was sub-Human and therefore had a duty to submit to rape, convicted her of murder, and hanged her a few days before Christmas. 1855. Not the dark ages. Not the time of cavemen. 1855. You f***ing Americans hanged a little girl for the crime of resisting one of an endless number of rapes when she was feeling ill. You f***ing Americans still have just about the only nation on Earth that allows the death penalty for children and the mentally ill in this present day.
Zimmerman murdered a young black person FULLY aware that he was protected by the same mechanisms that have protected anyone who abuses, rapes or murders a black person across the entire history of the USA.
I hope I live to see the day when the rest of the world not only sees the USA as the abomination that it is, but acts to permanently end any concept of American domination of this planet. America is the ONLY modern industrialised nation that accepted and used slaves with its borders. Britain did not. Spain did not. France did not. Canada did not. Australia did not. Italy did not. You dirty f***king Yanks did, and not only did you use slaves, you actual had your universities attempt to find a scientific foundation to justify slavery in the early 19th century. The result of this pseudo science was the creation of racist theories that you eventually gifted to Hitler and the Nazi movement one century later. Nazi Germany was but a pale inefficient version of the real thing, the USA.
Of course, in nations that you Yanks are putting to the sword, like Syria, your victims face the racist violence of Zimmerman raised to the power infinity. At least Zimmerman murdered his victim one-to-one. On a global scale, America is the most cowardly murderer Humanity has ever known. America only destroys targets that are almost infinitely weaker militarily, and then destroys with a level of overkill that would sicken any of the military psychopaths that appeared in previous times.
Again there is a wickedness at the heart of America that greater Humanity will either confront and defeat, or ignore and perish.
News for geeks. We know about Google News, or any other mainstream news outlet for that matter....
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
you think that your skin color allows you to be such a blatant bigot and expect to get away with it.
cowards like you like to stalk blacks and, being such cowards feel entitled to shoot them if they get uppity.
if Zimmerman didn't have his little penile replacement with him he would have stayed in the car like he was told to instead of trying to act like a vigilante stalking that uppity black kid armed with skittles.
For one, I'm surprised they were able to find enough people in that entire state who were able to count to 6 and hadn't already formed an opinion on this case (of course, the jury will be forever out on that matter).
However, equally important here is that the prosecution was a product of the state. The state had little interest in actually pursuing justice in this matter as they would have a huge problem on there hands if a criminal case were to lead to questioning of the stand your ground law. The state presented a case only because a crime was committed, however they were not obligated to do a competent job of presenting that case. They did such a half-assed job on this that Zimmerman could have been represented by Ronald McDonald and still would have been acquitted in that state.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
In hindsight it was either a full conviction or acquittal, really. That jury was fully of closet racist middle class women. Seriously the suburbs are *more* racist than 15 years ago IMHO.
Any sane, mentally culpable human can see Zimmerman was on a power trip and his white wannabe thoughts got the better of him. They might give other reasons but this was about racism. The whole damned thing...
Zimmerman's a murderer. Not premeditated, but he killed Travon.
Thank you Dave Raggett
all non-Jews are sub-human. America is controlled by Zionist Jews. Deal with it.
Just because one of the 5 talking heads on a panel was irrationally pro-Trayvon, doesn't mean you have a point.
It's obvious that the media was either 1) Stupid or 2) Complicit with racism.
Even choosing the subject to discuss, it's so easy to see the bias towards Zimmerman (b/c the gun lobby and conservatives in general say him as a bellwether).
Ex: a news panel discussing the decision not to allow blood test results showing Trayvon had used marijuana in the last 60 days before his killing.
That's racist b/c the whole notion is absolutely immaterial. First, the discussion should have been about **ZIMMERMAN's** blood contents, b/c oh, **he wasn't tested for drugs/alcohol** until much later if at all. Second, weed does not cause aggression and never has been claimed or evidence shown in scientific tests that it causes aggression.
Everyone knows that the "scary doped-up black man" trope has been used as a cultural Jim Crow since the '30s.
If these concepts are new to you, shame on you. This is part of American history and our daily struggle as humans living in a community.
Thank you Dave Raggett
he will move far away and change his name.. and he just may be able to avoid a life of hell. Honestly the media was such a mess in this case i have no idea if this was a justifiable or not. A lot of the reporting on both sides did't pass the smell test..
But we can comment on the news here. But we could all go to reddit as well, and do the same thing.
I think I'd like a tech news site that was entirely about tech, where I can post comments using my experience with technology.
I don't have any experience with racism or murder or courts. Most of the armchair lawyers here are interested in law as it related to technology, patents and copyright.
The handful of /.'s living in the South that want to move out? be my guest. California, Seattle and Austin all seem pretty nice. Less mosquitos than Florida too.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I'm not usually one to claim that stuff doesn't belong here; in fact, I usually make shitty, trollish posts in whatever thread brings that up. I'm not upset, and I came here specifically to argue both sides with vaguely racist nonsense and make people angry, so I'm pretty content. But I wholeheartedly agree: this garbage does not belong on a Slashdot which claims to be a tech news site. If Timothy wants to post this, he should go back to Reddit. This isn't a complain about a perceived abundance of Bitcoin and Raspberry Pi articles, it's a complaint about blatant clickbait to stir up page views. If I had any decency myself, I'd say it shameful that Timothy would so low as using a racially and politically charged (understand that I'm referring to the media circus, irrespective of what the true truth was) tragedy to do so. But, as I've said, I'm ruining the article myself, so I have no room to condemn him ^.^~!
A black kid just shot 5 people where I live. 2 of them died. I don't think it went beyond my local news stations.
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Your advice might keep someone out of prison.
I've seen cases where the Defendent gets false confidence b/c of a great performance from his attorney and good non-verbal feedback from the jury only to be sent away b/c of exactly what you describe.
Sometimes, the judges are just morons who behave essentially as librarians or middle managers and they just give the bare minimum of instructions (basically what they are told).
Also, State law can sometimes *mandate* the judge read a form of instructions.
We think of the courts as a safety valve to overrule democracy when it gets crazy, but really they are subject to the will of the people just the same, only usually on a longer timeline...you can't just fire a judge for incompetence.
Thank you Dave Raggett
He is innocent.
I've known all along that GZ would be acquitted, but I've also said all along that the law should be changed (after the fact, with no bearing on his case) so that what he did will be considered first degree murder in all future cases.
If you bring a deadly weapon to the fight, then you should be found guilty of homicide if you use that weapon to end someone's life -- even if that other person might have started the fight. And you should be found guilty of murder if you threatened or intimidated the other person prior to the fight (it is an uncontested fact that GZ did this to TM), unless the threat/intimidation consists exclusively of "leave me alone; I have a deadly weapon, and I will use it to defend myself."
The right to defend your own life should not include the right to end another person's life.
While fascinating, and I have been following the case on other news sites.. I'm a bit puzzled as to how the Zimmerman/Martin case has ANYTHING to do with computers, hacking, technology, or just about anything else Slashdot is known for.
Desperate for stories?
i thought for sure, whether right or wrong, a shitty night was coming for zimmerman . but a fulll on acquittal seems for some reason, obscene.
yes...but that doesn't mean you won't see valid controversy...
Racism is a problem in techie circles and it shows in overt and subtle ways. The proper response to Zimmerman's acquittal is outrage. Yes, of course that is 'IMHO' but my point is that we have to evolve beyond just identifying options and snarkily championing our favorite when it come to social issues (it will help make better designs and more money too ;)
These boards are full of trolls and general sociopathic behavior, and racism is part of it.
Just accept it...the right thing to be is angry at Zimmerman's acquittal. Middle class white people have gotten *more* racist and less nuanced in their worldview in the last 15 years and it's a shame.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Innocent: no.
Not guilty: yes.
BIG BIG difference.
Anybody who kills should be required to spend time in jail. period. If his life was so much in risk, then serving years in jail would be a totally worthwhile price FOR LIVING. Seriously, even if you are the hero - serving some jail time is a small price to pay. Think about it.
Every cowardly wimp in the USA can now legitimately shoot somebody BEFORE they are beaten up. This is not far from invading Iraq before they WMDed somebody.
Now with no bullying in school, kids will grow up in fear of an ass whooping... I know what it is like to be beaten up; it really isn't all that horrible. You don't die and you do heal... and any permanent damage comes out of the other guy's ass.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
All those favoring the prosecution say Trayvon Martin was "innocent."
George Zimmerman (correctly) profiled the black punk as a burglar. He was determined not to let this burglar walk through his neighborhood without following him and making him uncomfortable.
Q: Why do I say the profiling was correct?
A1: Trayvon Martin was arrested for possession of burglary tools.
A2: Trayvon Martin was kicked out of high school when thousands of dollars of stolen jewelry was found in his locker. He said it was costume jewelry he was going to give to his girlfriend. He did not deny it was his - he admitted it was his, so nobody else put it in his locker. The jewelry was positively identified as having been stolen from houses within a few blocks of his high school.
Anybody who burglarizes a bunch of houses deserves to be profiled and stalked. Trayvon Martin got what he deserved.
Sic semper burgatoribus.
Now to bankrupt certain media outlets, and then to put them in prison for inciting violence when our hero, George Zimmerman, is murdered by another black burglar.
Civilians don't get to do "warning" shots. The deal with the use of deadly force is that it either is or is not justified. There isn't a situation where it is justified to "just try and scare them" with a gun.
In the case of something like this, the justification would be that you feared for your life. In most places that allow lethal force for self defense, that is a valid reason. The thing is, just firing a warning shots could show that you really DIDN'T have an imminent fear for your life. You weren't so afraid you felt the need to shoot your attacker, just "warn" them. Thus you weren't really in fear for your life, so no justification.
I am not aware of jurisdictions that allow you to use guns to just try and scare people for various reasons. You can use them to defend yourself and sometimes others, but only in grave cases. If the case isn't grave enough for that, then you aren't justified in using it in any way.
Basically as a civilian in a self defense situation don't draw your gun unless to shoot and don't shoot except to kill. If the situation isn't serious enough to warrant that, then a gun isn't the answer.
wrong man...seriously from experience you're wrong about the whole thing
This isn't a geometry proof, this is human behavior. Your analysis is exactly the kind of disconnected, isolated thinking that squirmy defense attorney's play to.
You're falling for used-car salesman level B.S.
Forget 'Stand your ground' and your interpretations of what you think a jury would do and all that and look at this at a simple human level.
Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. He admitted it. That's guilt unless...
Self defense.
Was Zimmerman's life in danger?
If you answer 'yes' or 'a reasonable person might think so' then you're still looking at it with half of your brain.
Given the circumstances which were well reported, no matter who was 'on top' or had weed in their system or was a 'racist'...Zimmerman's life was **not in danger**
Just because he might be sub-moronic enough to somehow think his life was in danger, or because jurors are more easily manipulated in 2013 has no bearing. We are talking about if he should be guilty, not what we think others will/could/should decide. We are deciding here in this discussion.
He definitely shot and killed Trayvon and self-defense is no defense.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Look at them!
To anyone who is upset that this story popped up despite not strictly relating to computers, three things:
One: why didn't you stop it?
Wouldn't that require not being a AC?
Which means he can get another gun. I'll bet he has one by tomorrow and that the people around him do too. The "black guys" as you put it will get a bullet in the chest just like Martin did but there won't need to be a trial since it will be obvious self defense.
Burn, Baby, Burn!
Seastead this.
Warning shots are illegal and dangerous. A gun is deadly force. If someone needs to be shot then shoot them, Don't fire the gun in a random direction and kill an innocent person.
If the husband was a threat she should have shot him.
n/t
Thank you Dave Raggett
...one "benefit of the doubt" (presumption of innocence) had to be handed out in this trial regardless of facts, and in our legal system the recipient must be the person on trial (e.g. the survivor of the conflict).
What this translates to on the streets of Florida is anyone's guess, but it seems to me that people who find themselves being pursued by strangers are generally assumed by the "justice" system to forfiet their right to life.
it's all about Zimmerman's reason for shooting and killing Trayvon.
he said it was 'self defense'
but his *life was not in danger*
see that? his life wasn't in danger so 'self defense' is no defense
he has *absolutely* no reason, given the reported facts, to think his life was in danger...
just because he may be sub-moronic enough to *think* his life was in danger, or that in 2013 jurors are dumb enough to be convinced of the same means nothing to the question...
given the reported facts, his life was not in danger and he had no reason to think so
Thank you Dave Raggett
nice job windbag...you typed a book defending something I didn't attack...
this, for me, is about Zimmerman's claim of 'self defense'
get it? the question is, 'Was this shooting in self-defense?'
if you have half the military experience you claim you should know about how interpersonal scrums like this work...
Zimmerman's life was not in danger, and defending yourself is *never* an excuse to harm someone with impunity...
Zimmerman had *no reason* to use deadly force...no matter who was 'on top' or whatever...he was playing the injured party as an excuse to be a jerk and pull the trigger.
Do you get it? This is about Zimmerman's life or personal effects being in danger...enough to warrant deadly force.
No matter what, deadly force was not warranted, even if you go on just the facts the defense and prosecution agree upon.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Getting followed by a creepy guy does not give you the right to beat him down. Being just or unjustly followed does not matter. When you beat down a person you give him the legal right to self defense.
I'm a little curious, why is this considered tech news/News For Nerds?
I think it's time for FL Attorney General Pam Bondi Office of Inspector General to do a full audit of that State Attorney office on any evidence that office refused to turn over related to all convictions coming out of that office. The shadow of doubt has been created by this fiasco that vital information was fully with coming from this office may not have been dutifully met in other cases that concluded with convictions. Never mind Zimmerman case, this is about a public office doing the right thing, every time as professional attorneys for the People. Incompetence and vindictive nature of this particular State Attorney's office is a clear sign that there must be audited for the good of the People.
The "Stand your ground law" isn't really a factor when someone jumps you, pounds your head against the cement, is on top of you and reaches for a gun, even your gun. And if you're ever in that situation and waste time considering if it does, then you will likely not survive. This was clear cut self-defense, as the evidence showed.
Other evidence showed it was racially motivated. The guy's own girlfriend testified that he called Zimmerman a "cracker" before the attack. And the judge excluded evidence of his interest in violence and attacking people, but anyone paying attention outside the jury caught that.
The cops didn't even want to arrest Zimmerman, they investigated and knew enough about what happened to understand he shouldn't be charged with a crime. He was only charged after a lot of blacks fired up the black community to send a message to other black youths that it is alright to attack and try to kill a "cracker", and if he defends himself we can get him arrested.
Gotta go now and research just what that information was that the D.A. illegally hid from the defense. That alone pretty much should tell you this wasn't a attempt to get justice, it was an attempt to convict an innocent man who was attacked.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
was Zimmerman's life in danger?
that's the question...who was 'on top' and if either was a racist is immaterial to his guilt
answer my question, was Zimmerman's life under threat?
i'd like to hear your answer...based on reported facts...you don't have to link to everything I've been up on the trial...answer my question if you'd like to talk further
Thank you Dave Raggett
According to Godwin's law, we are still missing a "Hitler" word.
So here it is.
Justice, at last.
If I harass then pick a fight with a random stranger, and it turns
out the random stranger is a Black Belt, stands his ground, and
proceeds to kick my ass, I can't use the fact that I'm losing as
justification to pull out my gun and kill the guy.
But then again I don't live in Florida, where apparently that's ok.
You know who else wanted a final solution to this thread?
Huh, it seems I have nothing to add but posted anyway.
SLASHDOT FOREVER!
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Miscarriages of justice such as this one are a direct result of the fundamentally flawed system of jury trial and of flawed legislation.
Jurors are laymen and as such not suited for something as complicated as a criminal case and they are by definition susceptible to suggestion. A civil or criminal case brought before the court should always be handled by one ore more judges, people who are trained to be objective and to weigh the evidence, not by laymen.
And on the Eighth Day, Man created God.
Trevor Martin:
- Kicked out his mothers house for violent behavior.
- Numerous violent incidents at school.
- Posing as wanna-be hoodlum.
George Zimmerman:
911 operators are NOT police officers and can't give orders.
911 operator did NOT order, just said Zimmerman did not need to continue to follow.
Zimmerman did NOT continue to follow as was proven in the case BY THE PROSECUTION!
You are a typical anon, ill informed and down right lying.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
No idea who these people are (probably because I live in Europe ?) - are they related to technology ?
Dodged a bullet.
If Martin had known Zimmerman had a gun, would he have attacked him?
If Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun and feared getting shot in the back, attacking him was even more insane, he would have to close with a man who could whip out a gun in a split second and fill him with lead (WHICH DID NOT HAPPEN).
If Martin did not know Zimmerman had a gun, him attacking him is a clear case of aggression with murderous intent considering the near outcome of the fight as in if Zimmerman had NOT shot Martin, would Martin have stopped beating his victims head into the ground BEFORE he died or after?
To many people assume that because Martin was the one who ended up death, Zimmerman was the only one with murder on the mind that night.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Still pending from the Holder DoJ are charges of jaywalking and removing the tags off mattresses. If they have to do double, triple, or quadruple jeaopardy they'll get him somehow. So much for the rule of law. My advice to Zimmerman is to get the hell out of the US.
Why do people keep forgetting this happened in a gated community, in which BOTH lived?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Zimmerman was the one on the ground as testified to by both witnesses and forensic investigators.
I have seen some people try to bend the truth but you break it then throw away half the pieces.
What is your agenda?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
it seems to me that people who find themselves being pursued by strangers are generally assumed by the "justice" system to forfiet their right to life
Hmmm, seems to me like you are cherrypicking here. Please note, I do not know everything that happened that night, and neither do you. Going by only the forensic evidence published in the new rags, it seems your statement above is a little moronic however. If it was the case of Marting being "pursued by a stranger" only, where does Zimmermans broken nose and cuts to the back of the head come from?
Here is the thing: The fact that Martin pummeled Zimmerman means that Zimmermans claim of self defence is a plausible alternative version to the Martin side of the story (which sadly he never got to tell). If there is a plausible alternate explanation that means there is reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt is what is needed to acquit. Zimmerman never had to prove his story to force the jury to acquit, he only had to make it a plausibe explanation. Reasonable doubt it is.
I agree, but remember, both these men lived in gated communities. I have very strong feelings about gated communities. They talk to me about people who would rather pay a thousand in gates and wannabe cops rather then spend a 100 in extra taxes for real cops. Real cops are not perfect mostly because people don't want to pay for proper ones (would you take a cop salary?) but they are better then armed civilians trying to keep out wanna-be thugs especially when those wanna-be thugs are living in the same community.
Either side could have walked away that night but the real fight started far far earlier, when Travor was getting violent at school and Zimmerman was no longer willing to wait for an underfunded justice system to stop crime on his turf.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Oh dear. You missed a perfectly good opportunity to Godwin the thread.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Zimmerman and Travor BOTH choose to live in a gated community.
Don't whine about being stopped in the street by the security guard you yourself appointed.
If this had happened outside the gates, I would have felt different BUT this happened in a gated community and in such a place, you have to live by whatever rules that community sets because that is why gates are around it. Don't live in a gated community if you don't want to stopped by your neighbors.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The justice system ran its course. The protests resulted in a prosecution that never would have happened otherwise. A jury hand picked by the prosecution (6 women, 5 of whom are mothers) was unanimous in deciding the state failed to prove either second degree murder or manslaughter. It HAD to be an acquittal from the beginning because there was no way the Special Prosecutor could prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is the burden the state had to meet. Anything other than an acquittal could only have been explained as people following their emotions and not the rule of law (which saves us from these sometimes). One of our justice system's great weaknesses is actually its greatest strength, it is designed in such a way that it would rather acquit 10,000 guilty men than convict 1 innocent person.
Why don't you Americans grow the f'up already? There is only one race, the human race.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Rabbit season! Duck season! Rabbit season!.. BLACK SEASON!
Remember to yell "it's coming right for us" before gunning them down.
One: That's a pretty good link. I like that. More people should know about Firehose. And meta-modding, for that matter.
Two: It's the Network Decay effect, where a specialized media site (channel, station, etc) moves away from its earlier focus in an attempt to attract a broader audience, often because people in the demographic their focus caters to ALSO likes a different focus. Yes, it used to be that Slashdot really was "news for nerds, stuff that matters" as in the stories had a very nerdy or technology angle, and it wasn't quite good enough that "well, some nerds would find this non-tech stuff important, so let's run with it." Now it's a bit different, but some people still complain about the the minor format shift. On the scale of Network Decay, Slashdot is probably between Major Shifts That Fit (bringing other things in without leaving their genre) and Slipped (still pays attention their genre, but there's a lot of non-genre stuff mixed in).
Mr. Martin had accused Mr. Zimmerman of being a "creepy assed cracker" and decided the punishment would be ground and pound.
Mr. Zimmerman, of course, objected to his head being bounced off the concrete. HIs objection was sustained by the Honorable Judge Kel-Tec.
Four: All actual nerds and geeks are looong gone and have moved on. The only ones left nowadays, are completely fucked-up morons who are *PRO*-imaginary-property (something that was *unthinkable* back then, because very few users were THAT retarded), *like* iPads (there's no better indicator in the *world* to show you're *not* a nerd or geek) and barely know how a GUI works, let alone a computer.
As a long-term user who changed his account's password to something unknown just so he wouldn't log in again, I can tell you: Slashdot is dead. This here, right now, is just the looong and painful rotting process.
I'd also say "... Long live Slashdot", but that would be cruel and selfish.
Still, I feel that Zimmerman should have some punishment for ignoring the common-sense guidelines of both Neighborhood Watch and the police-station dispatcher.
If you are carrying a deadly weapon, you have a higher obligation and responsibility than one who is not, and Zim's carelessness should result in punishment of some sort. I hope there is a civil penalty not unlike the OJ civil case.
Although he's not guilty of direct "murder" per se, his foolishness resulted in an unnecessary death and he shouldn't be able to walk away as if nothing happened. It sends a wrong message and bad precedent.
Table-ized A.I.
Your justice system thinks it's ok for one private citizen to kill another private citizen. That's pretty sad.
1) This complete fiction of "Smashed their head into the ground".
2) "Stalking someone whilst you have a gun is not an act of aggression". Really? Tell the cops that when I walk after them with my gun in my hand...
3) He was able to NOT stalk the kid. There was no need even to need to flee.
Then you sum it all up with the ignorant screed "The only thing that needs to be "amended" here is your ignorance of both the law and the facts of the case."
Look to yourself, moron. Look to yourself.
Incitement to violence too.
So your assertion "If you walk somewhere in a public space - I can follow you. I can even ask you a question" doesn't apply if you're yelling "Hey, Nigga, get your drug-addled ass back in the nigger ghetto where you belong!".
Do that and I'll break your fucking neck.
Right. Follow up an anti-racist statement with a prejudiced one. Beautiful.
a single mother! (grabs pitchfork and runs out of the comment thread)
Pitchfork? My first reaction would be to test some of my cheesy pickup lines on her.
I understand this can be a widelay spoken about case. But, come on, this is slashdot, not the Sunday Times!!!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Man, you do not live in Florida, do you?
Even white people consider themselves to be “crackers”.
If this Zimmerman guy really thought the kid was a problem, he should have called the cops from the beginning.
That’s it. If he didn’t do that and pursued what he thought was a bad situation then he indeed lives a charmed life and his is indeed still alive.
As a non American not living in the USA I never heard about this case. This is not related to IT (Zimmerman is not Reiser). Seen from the other side of the Atlantic this is just one among the thousands of murders that also happen in Europe. I believe it doesn't belong to Slashdot. My two cents.
That is of course a rhetorical question.
The implication of this verdict is that if George Zimmerman is not the cause of Martin's death (whether willfully, accidentally or in self defense)... therefore Martin is the cause of his own death.
I guess a lot of slashdot readers are overweight weekend warriors who study guns and ammo - and who wouldn't last 5 seconds against an equal armed opponent.
As a former military police officer and current concealed weapons licensee, I agree with much of this but dont shoot to kill. Shoot to stop the threat. Never fire a warning shot. Dont shoot in the leg to just injure.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
The procedure for killing someone legally in Florida is simple. Pick a fight with someone, say for the crime of being the wrong race in the wrong neighborhood. During the resulting melee which you have provoked, claim you feel threatened for your life then use lethal force. Please note. If you are black DO NOT USE THIS PROCEDURE, you are automatically branded a "Thug" by virtue of your race so the right of self defense does not apply to you!
Now comes the riots, the assaults on lone persons, the vandalism, the grief, now come all the stories that make you understand.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The state and the parents.
When you kill the person who can tell the other side of the story, the odds suddenly shift in your favor. When the truth was you said "Hey nigger! Get the fuck out of my neighborhood!" you can instead claim you were offering your victim a lollipop and you were suddenly attacked and in fear of your life. With stand your ground, all you have to do is claim you have reason to believe you were in fear of your life, then BAM! the courts are legally compelled to not press charges.
Speaking at a press conference after the verdict, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda said he was "disappointed" with the verdict. "Who followed who? Isn't that what this case boils down to?" de la Rionda said
No, that is not what this case boils down to. What this case boils down to is who attacked whom first and how. That is why this case should never have gone to trial. The physical evidence corroborated Zimmerman's account and didn't disprove it. Eye witnesses corroborated Zimmerman's version. And, in the United States of American, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution couldn't prove it's case and appealed to emotion and tried to mislead the jury and shift the burden of proof during closing arguments. The prosecutor stated that Zimmerman's defense needed prove Zimmerman's version of events and had not done so. But, Zimmerman didn't have to do that. It is the prosecution's job to prove it was false beyond a reasonable doubt. They couldn't and didn't and so tried to shift the burden of proof and used appeal to emotion to win. They failed.
It is quite amazing to see so many comments that are stating that Zimmerman is guilty while not knowing the facts. Some obviously started from the position that Zimmerman should be assumed guilty and that his defense had to prove him innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt. That is not how the law works.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
One needs a link to the firehose to click on the firehose. It's not on the front page. Out of sight, out of mind. Apparently I have 15 firehose points.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
"Everyone's gotta have an opinion"
What do opinions and @$$holes have in common?
Everyone has one and they both stink!
And we have hundreds of incidences where blacks racially profile white people and beat them up, kill them, rob them etc... Oh but that isn't being racist... I think we should be putting the exact same scrutiny on black people that is applied to white people - in EVERY instance. I mean lets be fair, either it's all racism or it is not - PERIOD!
you show so much concern about Travon being killed in self defense by a Hispanic, yet ignore the HUNDREDS of deaths of blacks by blacks in Chicago every year... hypocritical much?
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
It is now officially legal for me to start a fight, wait for the other person to fight back, then shoot them and claim self-defense...good to know.
and if you fight back, execute you. Especially in Florida"
Cenk Uygur's summary of the outcome of this trial.
(1) Whines about the media
(2) Believes the media was trying to convict Zimmerman*, but fails to notice media trying to acquit Zimmerman
Obviously a Faux-News sheep here.
(*) Opinions on the Zimmerman trial showed a steep partisan divide. The party of white resentment rallied around the poor white vigilante who stalked a black man with a gun, got beat up, and then pulled the trigger. The party sees racism as a structural institution in society did pretty much the opposite. Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that how we see race was a strong prior on how we saw the trial.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Some of the controversy surrounding Google Glass is people worried about being video recorded by others and having that video made public and subject to whatever scrutiny and ridicule the friends, family, neighbors, coworkers and public in general can come up with.
But what if you're the one wearing Glass, and get accused of something you didn't do? Or somebody does something to you and there's otherwise no evidence? Suddenly your Glass can save your bacon. It can be abused, of course, but it can also be a powerful form of self defense. If either GZ or TM had a video record of what happened that night, I wonder first about how the events would have unfolded differently and second if there would have been nearly as much controversy if there wasn't the he-said-she-said aspect.
For some interesting sci-fi reading about related subjects, check out The Light Of Other Days by Arthur C Clarke and Stephen Baxter, and The Truth Machine by James L. Halperin.
The "Stand your ground law" isn't really a factor when someone jumps you, pounds your head against the cement, is on top of you and reaches for a gun, even your gun.
It's also not a factor when you stalk someone after being instructed not to do so, and get into an altercation with them because you're a Big Man With A Gun. And I say this as a proponent of concealed carry laws.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The 'Stand your ground' law was never part of this except in the media. It was not applicable to either party.
People keep saying this, but it did come up in court. Zimmerman testified to knowing nothing of it and the prosecution brought in his university professor, Alexis Carter, to testify that it was covered extensively in a class Zimmerman passed. It was relevant in court at least to the extent of defining Zimmerman's character.
The verdict very well may have not hinged on it, but it's extremely relevant in the national discussion of what's happened and should be looked over very carefully. Let's be clear, we aren't in trial here any more so let's posit that Zimmerman was well aware of it and that made him feel he had the legal ground to get out of his car with a gun and stalk someone down the street. This needs to be talked about.
What's particularly concerning about this is that many of the same people who were foaming at the mouth and decrying a "travesty of justice" after the acquittal of Casey Anthony are now calmly saying "our system works, justice was served" in the case of George Zimmerman.
Quite telling.
and lots of blacks call themselves and each other "nigger". i thought we were supposed to be hyper-sensitive to /every/ skin color's delicate feelings
Just asking, since unless you were on the jury or in the courtroom every day, what you know about this case amounts to precisely DICK, since all you know is what the transparently biased media has been feeding you.
So, unless you were on the jury, your opinion is worthless, and you should just shut the fuck up right now.
Galactic metric time: 332444635.9.7763
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, G2V-661221, third planetary body
Genderoverbearers:
After observation of the subject race (hereby referred to as "Humanity") we have come to the conclusion that they are not ready for First Contact. It has been observed that they still attack each other solely because of their subspecial characteristics.
Suggestion that Humanity be reevaluated for FC in 1000 of the solar orbits. Suggestion that local RF, coherent light, and neutrino communication encryption sphere be maintained around G2V-661221 (a.k.a "Sol) for a radius of 3.1 light years, and that all spacecraft traffic within sphere continue stealth generator use. Special consideration must be observed to the dual request of the Alpha Centurians and Tau Cetians who are tired of Humanities inane communication chatter.
With subservient fear of offensiveness,
Xexxzzqkl, First Contact Evaluation specialist
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
is a danger to cowards like you and can be shot on sight, right? Or would you prefer a good old fashioned lynching?
first photo of Trayvon Martin that i saw showed him smiling in his red Hollister shirt. i was like, a grown man shot a 14 year old kid? why would a 14 year old start a fight with a bigger and older man. huh?
then the news finally showed the 17 year old Trayvon wearing a hoodie. just saying
At worse Zimmerman is guilty of discharging a firearm within city limits and littering. All this hoopla is a waste of time.
I said that a lot during last night's game on TF2, so here it is.
TRAYVOOOONNNNNN!
We had both Zimmerman and Martin in the game. We temporarily switched the names from red and blu to Zimmerman and Trayvon. Trayvon's team lost though, repeatedly...
It's Jury Selection, Jury Selection, Jury Selection
I don't mean to sound as if I'm parsing here, but the truth of the matter in these high profile cases, and various insurance-involved cases (malpractice suits, etc.), is that much money and effort goes into precision jury selection.
When I heard the make-up of the jury, all women, all mothers, I feared that Zimmerman would be found not guilty; it seemed the greatest probability given their jury selection.
Personally speaking, the one and only time I finally made it to the point of jury selection (it was a medical malpractice lawsuit, and the majority of the jury members had been selected, but the attorneys were planning on excluding several, so the largest pool of jurors was brought in for voir dire, thirty in all, with the least likely to be selected at the very end of the line, which naturally meant I was number thirty juror possibility [never chosen, 'natch] --- being at the end afforded me the position of being next to the four Jury Selection Consultants [three men and one woman] and overhearing their whispered remarks --- said remarks pointing to the targeting of the blandest people possible, those most likely to never have questioned the status quo!) it was quite the learning experience.
Had this been in earlier times, but in the present tense, and a random cross section of that town been chosen, in all probability Zimmerman would have been justifiably convicted, as he should have been!
Now Zimmerman can pick up and his gun, and no doubt in the future make another attempt against an innocent victim.
Perhaps, like Ernesto Miranda (he of the Mirandizing or Miranda Warning), eventually his karma will catch up with him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Miranda
Right. Follow up an anti-racist statement with a prejudiced one. Beautiful.
Pardon? Are you not a human? American is nationality. It is neither a race or ethnicity as your country composed of immigrants and descendants of immigrants. Do you see people Calling Canadian a race of ethnicity? No.
I was speaking the the character of many people in the states. I have met a lot of really nice people but I have also seen many examples of racism entrenched in virtually every ethnicity within the US. It is time to put that racism and talk of slavery behind you. You can remember history without dwelling on it. Unfortunately, many in America keep on dwelling on it rather than learning from it and moving on.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
the rates for murdering and being murdered are much higher for blacks.
There are some truths about reality that offend our sense of personal importance.
1. World peace can't be done. There will always be irrational people, and you must oppose them with force.
2. Pluralism doesn't work. Society only functions when there's a single standard of values and thus behavior.
3. Diversity doesn't work (corollary to point #2). The happiest societies are unified in values, heritage, culture, language and basic philosophy.
4. Group delusion is normal. A large group of people will settle on not only a lowest common denominator but on a wishful thinking illusion.
5. We are not all equal. Some are better at others than certain things and deserve more power.
There are more, but these are some starter heresies for our modern time. Our society is as controlled as the Soviets, as lynch mobby as the Salem witch-burning days, and as closed-minded as the toughest religious fanatics.
We're just doing it in subtler ways.
Futurist Traditionalism
This verdict was so bad it got people in Oakland to smash shit.
So now the media frenzy can continue. They're pushing for a civil rights trial for Zimmerman.
Getting to the point where there is no such thing as civil rights in this country.
Zimmerman was legally found innocent. Not saying the verdict was right or wrong, but I wasn't in the courtroom either.
So if they can sue him for violating Martin's civil rights they violate the civil rights of Zimmerman.
Catch-22.
Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
"It's better to let a guilty man go free THEN to put an innocent man behind bars."
LOL. Do you not even understand what the words "then" and "than" mean?
that's the question...
was his life in danger?
that's the question I posed, but somehow it brought out all the gun right's trolls...
notice I am not, at all, in any way, shape or form, discussing or questioning or assailing gun rights...
i'm asking if Zimmerman's life was in danger when he killed Trayvon...was his life in danger?
Thank you Dave Raggett
There is a FL 2012 statue that says acquittal by reason of self-defense provides immunity from civil suits. This is in several states now.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
...He was only charged after a lot of blacks fired up the black community to send a message to other black youths that it is alright to attack and try to kill a "cracker", and if he defends himself we can get him arrested. "
Congratulations. That is the single most fucked-up thing I've seen anyone write on this entire 17-month event. Yes, if not for last night's verdict being what it was, there might be angry muscular doped-up black youths coming to kill you right now. Thank God for American Justice, eh?
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
You're honestly wrong if that's your impression. Human behavior, and 'self defense' doesn't work like you describe, and you can't justify a killing on a 'probably'
I strongly doubt you've ever been in a real fight. If you have you would understand that hitting someone, or knocking their head into concrete is not 'life threatening'...people can want to hurt another human *very badly* yet not have any intent to kill.
Your test for 'self defense' is way too weak to be used consistently across other cases.
I am not expecting you to agree with me, although you should. I want you to have seen what i'm saying, to be exposed to the idea.
We have a generation of men like you who are over-sensitive and under-experienced physically.
I don't care if you're a former cop or military special forces or w/e, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how fights between humans operate and what constitutes a 'threat' to a life
You are too sensitive man.
Thank you Dave Raggett
The thing that surprises me in this discussion is that, as far as I've browsed through the 1000+ comments, the issue of what has to be proved doesn't come up. It's proven that Zimmerman killed Martin. I would, naïve person that I am, assume that self-defence has to be proven for him to be acquitted, given that a crime (the killing) happened, the self-defence (which renders the crime legal [for lack of a better word]) would have to be proven. It seems that at least American law thinks differently, the thinking appears to be: since it's not a crime, provided it's self-defence, it is sufficent to prove that it's hard to prove that it wasn't self-defence. Which seems to make killing a much easier solution to a conflict.
Given the conflicting testimony and conflicting evidence presented to the court the proper verdict of Not Guilty was given by the jury.
Remember, we have a rule in this country that instead of convicting people based on the media, emotions or mob rule they must instead be found guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt.
While many may not like the verdict it was justice.
If the gun Ms. "Stand Your Ground" had used was 3D printed, it could be considered as interesting. But one a-whole fighting another to the death is not interesting, or news. Also, one should notice that avoiding hard questions causes calcium erosion in the spinal column, it has been noticed that there tends to be yellowish discoloration in the abdominal area. Other symptoms are a lack of ability to face one's antagonist in the optical area. The one question I have is, "If the deceased had a working phone, why didn't he call for help when followed by a human predator?" One can only imagine the nightmare Ms. "Stand Your Ground" would be facing today.
Apparently the idiots in the NAACP are unfamiliar with an area of the law which is known as "double jeopardy".
I'm pretty sure the NAACP is far more familiar with the law than you are. Double jeopardy only applies to criminal prosecutions. Estoppel is the doctrine that covers civil matters, and you can be prosecuted and then sued in civil court with no problems. You can do it the other way too, but it's generally better for the plaintiffs to wait until prosecution is done because criminal charges require the burden of proof be "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and liability for wrongful death and other civil complaints only require "the preponderance of the evidence."* If you get a conviction, you've guaranteed proof for civil matters; if you don't, you can litigate the balance between the two. That's how OJ lost civil claims for the wrongful death of Nicole Simpson -- there wasn't enough evidence to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt," but there was the "preponderance of the evidence" that he murdered his her.
Still, I am dismayed that the NAACP is still pursuing this case. But they pretty much have to considering the racial divide on what people believe in this case thanks to all the media race-baiting. If they don't pursue Zimmerman, they can expect a large backlash from their donors and volunteered.
(*Some civil actions require "clear and convincing" proof, which sits between the two.)
Slashdot has become a fucking joke.
That is taking the shit from my pockets hooping and hollering piru what you going to do. Blasting mother fuckers that is what I am going to do.
ISAF ROE was warning shots unless you needed to engage for immediate self defense.
Theatre wide.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Please remove your head from your collective asses.
Rachel Jeantel's testimony makes it clear that Zimmerman put his hands on Martin first.
If you believe that Trayvon Martin called George Zimmerman a creepy ass cracker and believe that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first then you have selectively believed only part of Jeantel's testimony... I wonder why?
I think Jeantel was telling the truth about Martin saying "get off, get off" to Zimmerman just before the phone cut out.
The reality of the situation is that Zimmerman put his hands on Martin first.
As a non USA citizen - and a citizen of USA ally - I do wonder why this is on slashdot - but as it happens - I am quite interested in this case anyway - so Im not complaining. ....
Does ANYONE happen to have a link to the court trial transcripts ??? that would be interesting and would solve many of the debates going on
As an aside - I find the remarks about Slashdot being a conservative site amusing. There are definately conservative posters on slashdot - but I can assure you = you would not get many of the rest of the world visitors if it was a USA conservatve bent site - because USA dems -= which your conservatives mistakenly call socialist and even communist - equate to the extreme right wing for much of the developed world. (The USA dont even have anything - politically - that equates to our current centre - consensus driven government - and our left wing parties - are not yet socialist - and let are far far to the left of anything you guys have. But thats just an aside. We understand what socialism have - and I think we may still have a communism party - we certainly used to and we certainly have very very smal socialist parties (no elected reps though so we understand what these systems actually are - and we understand where we TRULY fit on the continuum. I suspect many in the USA would be shocked to see where they were on the scale - along with say the fascists etc and with the rest of the world ) Slashdots reasonably balanced - because it has a reasonably intelligent and therefore fact based audience
If someone tries to beat me up and a punch him, that's not self-defense?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
we're talking about the Zimmerman case, right? Shooting of Trayvon Martin...b/c what you describe here is different completely:
and
Not what happened.
We **do not know** who laid hands on whom first and **all of you** are making assumptions about that.
We *do* know what injuries were sustained and it was *not* injuries that you get from having your head...what's the words you used..."slammed repeatedly"
Let me push you down on the concrete and lets see if you bang your head when you fall...
Then let me **repeatedly slam your head into the concrete** and we'll see if there is a, you know, medical difference...
cranial fractures, bruises, contusions...that's what **repeatedly slamming** a person's head into concrete with **intent to kill** looks like.
Zimmerman's wasn't...he's a wannabe cop who killed a boy in a fight because he wanted to act tough...
Zimmerman shot and killed a man for a scratch on the head, one that may have come from a fight he started.
Thank you Dave Raggett
This just made VERY bad case law.
Effectively Zimmerman baited the kid so he could murder him. He followed police-style rolling up and preventing the kid from leaving, he called the police ahead to plant the alibi, then persued on foot anyway, he didn't put the kid "under citizens arrest" he just attempted to yell at him and physically detain him... Lastly, he didn't announce before trying to detain the kid that he had a gun. And just blew the kid away because he lost a fistfight.
Basically you had a 17YO kid, illegally (or just barrly legal) cornered, prevented from walking away, and threatened by an adult ..attempting to fight his way out of the situation. If the kid was alive, Zimmerman would be wholly at fault.
This just makes extremely bad law. Lets say next time I get cut off in traffic by somebody texting (that's a crime!) i can block their car in at the next rest stop and verbally accost them for their poor decision... I don't even have to call the cops. When they try to escape by swerving at me or pushing my car out of the way, now I can "defend myself" and blow them away! Hell, you can even outright punch people in the face and walk away... If they "presue" then it's "self defense" on your part.
Yea Florida, you can pretty much antagonize a situation out in public right to the limit and as long as they hit on you more, you can blow them away as self defense!!!! Woot!
He needed to go down just to prevent that from becoming legal precedent.
This obvious failure of the courts and the legal system is perfect!
It opens the door wide for some other murdering, gun toting, nut
case vigilante justice seeker walk up to George Zimmerman and
blow his brains out! Lets hope it happens soon while the blood
of Trayvon is still fresh in our mouths.
The media coverage did indeed suck! Just like the comments to this Slashdot article, they lacked insight, nuance, and honest reflection. What actually happened was this: Zimmerman, a Hispanic neighborhood watch captain, whose neighborhood had seen a consistent problem with crime, made some really poor choices, which resulted in a seventeen year old African American kid, who wasn't breaking any laws being killed. Did Zimmerman commit murder? I don't think so, however was he guilty of manslaughter...I think yes! I can imagine myself at different points in time being in either Zimmerman's or Martin's position. Zimmerman should have listened to the police dispatcher and left Martin alone. He had no business following and confronting Martin. He could have identified his self as the neighborhood watch captain and assured Martin that he wasn't trying to mug him or something. To be blunt, if I had been Martin, and some guy, who looked like Zimmerman got out of his car and began following me through a neighborhood which had seen crime problems, I would have assumed he was up to no good. Self defense in this case is a two way street. No one knows what really happened, how the altercation started. But it is clear to me that Zimmerman made a really poor choice, when he exited his car to follow Martin. So did he intentionally murder Martin? NO! Did Zimmerman make some really stupid decisions that resulted in someone's death, who didn't deserve to die, and who wasn't engaged in criminal activity? ABSOLUTELY!
Juror b-29 was described as black/hispanic.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
... HAVE TO DO WITH TECHNOLOGY?! Come on people stop buying into the race card circus... We are BEYOND that.. we are in a galaxy far far away..a long time ago... in the final frontier of space..
Mostly EVERYONE seems to 'want' to believe that TM is guilty of being the aggressor in this case, and that because he was the aggressor, he chose his own fate. What EVERYONE fails to realize or admit is how they'd feel if TM was their own child, and what you would expect your child to do in such a situation. Regardless of the TM's background/history of fighting and drugs and the use of the word "cracker" AND regardless of the background/history of GZ attempting/failing to be a cop and the recent history of the neighborhood's break-ins: the one little fact remains - THERE WERE 2 CRITICAL ASSUMPTIONS MADE from both sides. GZ 'assumed' the person he was following was one of the "punks/coons that always get away". TM assumed he was being followed by a "creepy ass cracker". Who felt more threatened, honestly??? The 'pursuer' or the 'one being pursued'??? Therefore, considering if you're being pursued and possibly having your life threatened by someone who is NOT a LEO, not identified themselves as being Neighborhood Watch, but is 'armed and dangerous', are you NOT entitled to defend your life, by any means necessary??? In other words, if I attack you, and you retaliate by defending yourself by attacking me back, and I now feel my life is in danger, do I now have the right to kill you? I'm guessing the majority of you would say yes, just like you agree to the whole outcome of this case. The sad thing is I know all of you assholes would switch your opinion/story in a heartbeat IF your 17-old child was returning from a store (with no weapon), was followed by a suspicious adult (armed), tried to flee, was confronted by stranger that wanted to apprehend them, fought back (whether out of defense or even to get an upperhand on someone that was suspiciously following them), and ended up being shot and killed during the struggle. Even if you won't publicly admit it, you know that's the case. Also, considering everything were exactly the same, how do you think this would have played out if GZ were black, and TM was a young, Hispanic kid ???
99.8 percent of these "war mongers" that want Zimmerman dead, do not know Travon or anything about him. They are doing what their hero, the faker in chief, wants them to do. If he follows through with what he plans to do, I wonder how many of them will be around after the smoke clears? I am not an overly educated person, but it is easy to see that he (the faker) wants an excuse to declare "an incident", call out Martial law, call out the military and lay waste to all the people who cause problems for his dictatorial plans. It is also known, at least in some circles that the faker wants to "thin the herd" so to speak. "Reduce the population" in plain English. Talk about upcoming events that might affect you, this one will affect us all! An honest president would caution strongly for all to behave or face the jury them selves, but I am not expecting the current resident of the White house to do that, I am expecting him to do just the opposite .
Could this be why he asked so many Military leaders recently if they would "fire on Americans", and got rid of those who said "no"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_punishment are very common in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_world
Casteism
If you hunt me through the night including after I run away from you, that's assault.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
see, you're just wrong here:
I'm saying **no one knows** and neither party can prove who started the fight, but we know a random innocent person was killed.
Nope. I'm saying he has to prove his *affirmative defense*...that's legalspeak for proving he did it in self defense.
You can't just have the cops show up to a scene with one dead person and another just says "Eh, self defense" and call it a day! The police, you know, investigate the veracity of the 'self defense' claim.
That's the whole point, his claims that he had to kill Trayvon b/c of self defense are in question.
He could have said anything to the cops. He could have said it was an accident that the gun went off. That he really regretted it and it was unfortunately his last resort b/c the kid went postal with nerd rage. He could have not said anything at all.
He claimed a specific defense, that he needed lethal force in self defense. That's 'stand your ground' (which I don't want to debate the law at all).
Again that's where you are wrong. I'm trying to get you to look at it beyond this binary set of assumptions. The 'truth' in my mind exists in the sense that one sequence of events happened when Trayvon was shot. We all may use different language to describe what happened, and that language may signify serious actions involving Zimmerman's personal freedom.
It is a consensus, in this case of the jury, that decides. Language matters. The wording of the charges, the specifics of the instructions to the jury, etc.
I do not think 'justice' was done in the sense that the deciders (jury) seem to not have had a correct notion of the greatest source of tension between two opposing narratives...what I mean is, who started the fight and who was attacking whom.
They seem to have bought into the Defense's controversy over who was 'screaming for help' on the phone as an indication of who started the fight (or escalated it to physicality vs who was just defending themself).
The entire notion that the answer to that question can then determine 'who started it' or who is the attacker is wrong.
It was a false dichotomy. We can't know for sure who's voice that is, and even if we could, we'd still have *no idea* who started it....who was the instigator and attacker.
Which means that deciding if self defense is an affirmative defense in this case rests elsewhere. The 'truth' has to be uncovered elsewhere.
IMHO, the phone evidence (all the phone calls) and the defense's own testimony (wimpy at the gym) make it virtually certain that Trayvon entered the situation afraid and on the defense, unarmed, not looking for a fight, in a place he had every legal right to be.
Zimmerman entered with intent to confront and be an aggressor. By his own defense he was kind of a wannabe. Which to me sinks his claim of self defense.
To me that indicates Trayvon's killing was manslaughter.
Thank you Dave Raggett
The irony being that Martin could have been acting with the confines of "stand your ground". He could have felt that he was being stalked and fear for his life. Since he was unarmed, his only method of self defense was jumping him and trying to disable the stalker with whatever means he had at his disposal. The problem with cases like these being that the lone survivor can tell his own version of events.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
gosgog:
Never should have been one (a trial) in the 1st place. Stupid Black Kid attacks an armed security guard and gets himself shot....for that matter anyone regardless of color gets killed under these circumstances, just goes to show how fucking stupid people have become. The rest of this Media event is nothing more than a demonstration of RACISM by some Black people and followed up by a bunch of today's young white idiots in support.
It also points out how the LAW today in the U.S., has little to do with RIGHT & WRONG, but MONEY! And in the long run that's what will ultimately be the winning out come.
How can you conclude that Zimmerman would be in prison if he were black? Has this EXACT same situation with ALL the same particulars except race happened in a parallel universe with which you are familiar? Bottom line, there was NO evidence for a conviction, I don't give a shit what the race is. If he was convicted, odds are, the verdict would be overturned by a higher court because (and read carefully, this is important) THERE WASN'T ANY EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A CONVICTION. Also, if you are suggesting that we wrongly convict one man just because another man of a different race was wrongly convicted in the past, then fuck you, because that's the most egregious case of two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right I've ever fucking heard.
The media doesn't just cater, they have an agenda just like Sharpton and even the current administration. They out right lied, altered tapes of the 911 call to make it sound quite different. the govt also tried to influence the population. It was their goal to make sure Zimmerman was convicted, or that failing the population would not accept any other verdict. Their efforts have divided the population and set race relations back 50 tears, *or more* Their efforts have essentially made the name Zimmerman unsafe and he's unlikely to ever get a job, or feel safe again. Feel safe is too mild a statement as he *and his family* will never be safe again.and the news, particularly NBC are responsible for people still believing them and not paying attention to facts brought out at the trial where the prosecution even withheld evidence that would have aided Zimmerman. There's a drive to disbar to prosecution's one lawyer Zimmerman was found innocent, with overwhelming evidence. He may have made some unwise decisions, but Martin, *a football player*, attacked Zimmerman while Zimmerman was returning to his car, yet I see post after post (really outraged rants) on other blogs based on the false information put forth by NBC, the other networks, and govt agencies and not facts from the trial. It's bad enough that the networks did it, but our own government tried to influence the outcome. Not only that, but now they (the govt) are trying to pursue other routes to convict him., even requesting input from the public on the web. It's disgraceful conduct!
NBC, the Government, and maybe Sharpton should have to support Zimmerman for the rest of their natural lives "in style" . If those end prematurely then it should go to his heirs. These people and departments are guilty "in my estimation" of creating a climate and racial divide where he and his family will never be safe and they should have to pay for that. They inflamed a major portion of the population and have not been held accountable. They should be and in a major way.