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Laser Vision Correction?
Here's another query from Yet Another Anonymous Coward: "I have been considering laser vision correction for quite some time. However, I can't seem to find anyone who can give me a straight answer on what is involved, what it costs, etc. Has anyone had the surgury, or know where I can find information on it? "
I was talking about this with a friend just the other day. Why bother correcting your vision with surgery now, if you're just going to screw it up again staring at computers?
I had a friend who had laser vision correction.
:)
It cost him about $1,200 per eye, (it's done on a per eye basis) but I think it can probably get cheaper than that depending on where you go.
He LOVED it after he had had it done, although he did say that it felt very disgusting as it was actually happnening. (Peeling of the cornea, reshaping, and replacing, I believe)
He did have to go for a touch up operation about 6 months after he got it done originally, and that was a bit annoying but free.
I had a discussion with him the other day about it - he thinks it was worth it although I've heard of other people who have had to have touch up operations as well.
I'm betting that it would save money over the long term, and I'm considering it now myself, but coughing up the cash in the first place can be hard. (For some people, anyway.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
I can't vouch for it personally, but when my Yoga instructor had the surgery about a month ago, two other people piped up that they'd had it, and loved it. I'm currently saving up.
It cost her $4200, and she was out for less than a week.
The cake is a pie
Laser Vision involves a simple procedure that takes around 4 hours (last time I looked). It involves shaping your eyes to focus the light correctly on the back of your eye. The costs vary and the doctors here in the states haven't been doing it much over 5 years. I talked to an eye doctor about it and I found out some of the costs: 2k / eye if you go to a GOOD doctor, maybe less for a different one. He also told me that if he was going to have it done, he would persue a doctor in Canada (supposively they don't have the restrictions on research like we do here and have been using this since the late 80's). My suggestion is to go to a local eye doctor and quiz him on it. They should have brochures and such to give you if you are a canidate for the surgery. P.S. First post. Troy
Time Magazine did a story on it just a little while ago. The general consensus seemed to be that most of the time it's absolutely wonderful, while the rest of the time it really, really screws your eyes up.
Marissa
Don't do it just yet!!! Quite a number of people have had the negative effect of seeing halos when looking at light and some have even reported having worse eyesight after the surgery. I know the numbers are small, but it could happen to YOU!
Laser vision is still under the influence of Amdals Law (spelling?). It's improving geometrically. Considering that it's wetware not hardware, I'd wait for things to slow down a little.
My Dad had the procedure about a year ago, and it worked great for him. He had it done at Kaiser Permanente in Arleta, CA. The procedure cost him $2500, and it was worth it for him. This is how the procedure is done, its actually pretty simple. You are awake through it all. They cut your cornea off with a laser, rotate it, then set it back on the eye. And thats it. My Dad had to have his right eye done twice because of an astigmatism. He said he felt no pain, it was just a wierd experience is what he said. It took him about 2 weeks before he could see properly (mostly because of the astigmatism) but now that both eyes are healed he sees fine. He is a graphic artist, so he used to have to wear glasses all the time while working on images, but no longer. And now the only time he needs to wear glasses is to read real small print, anything smaller then newspaper print.
I also have a friend who's mother had it done, and she healed fine in about 2 days. Both my Dad and my friends mother have a reported 20/20 vision, and they are both very happy that they had it done. Oh, they both went to the same hospital to have it done.
Sometimes teh eye fights back and you will have
to wear those specs. There is a new technology (dont remember hte name) where they insert a lens in the eye and it can be removed if there is change in the vision. Totally undestruvtive as compared to laser correction.
CP
I had the LASIC procedure done about a year and a half ago. Went from barely being able to find my glasses in the morning to 20/20. Recovery period after the surgery of only an hour or so and then wearing eye shields at night. No complications. I think it cost about $5000 per eye although I'd imagine it's coming down. Well worthwhile in my opinion.
Dr. Carmen Puliafito, the director of opthomology at the New England Medical center, is perhaps the best in the nation.
He even offered baseball umpires a free checkup and surgery if needed.
Puliafito's contact info is here.
The article about the umps is here.
Not being entirely flip, but Weird Al Yankovic has apparently had the surgery. if you went to his site and emailed him, he might answer. He seems enough like a regular guy...
Mark Edwards
Proof of Sanity Forged Upon Request
I can give no URLs to back this up, but I can tell you what I've seen on TV and heard from my doctor. With laser surgery and radial caratonomy (sp?) the percentages aren't that great. If I remember right, it's like 20% get 20/20, 60% get better vision (not perfect, somewhere between their old vision and 20/20), and 20% get worse (!!) vision. The newest surgery is different. I can't recall what it's called, but they cut two slits in the corners and slide somewhat rigid rods into the cornea to reshape it. As it's fairly new, I haven't seen stats on the success rate of this surgery, but it's supposed to be high. It is also reversible. I was told that it was about $2000 or $3000 per eye, but I'm sure it will go down as it becomes more common...or is replaced by a better option.
I had it done last April. My life is now clearly more enjoyable. No more dry eyes!
My doctor has a web page full of information. It's http://www.lasikchicago.com I suggest that if you can afford it, then do it.
I had my eyes laser vision corrected about 1 year ago now, and I have had no regrets whatsoever. I used to have 20/400 in the left and 20/175 in the right, but since the surgery I now have a stable 20/20 in both eyes.
If you've never had to wear glasses or contacts you can't even imagine the feeling of being able to SEE normally for the first time ever! You walk around all day thinking about all the things you can see now for the first couple of months.
Mine cost about $2400 per eye, including free checkups and free enhancements should the surgery not take completely. I know you can probably get it for "real cheap" someplace else, but step back a minute and think how much that $5000 is really worth. What is that..
1) Room and board for a few months?
2) A piece of crap car?
3) Mebbe a few new computers?
or
4) Perfect vision, all day, everyday, for the rest of your life.
Hehe. I can't push it enough; mortage the house, sell your soul, go get it done.
I know many people who've had it done and I myself have had it done in one eye.
Everyone else I know was elated with the results.
I, however, am left with irregular astigmatism in my eye. Basically, I see double out of one eye. That sucks. I'd rather be nearsighted. It's basically untreatable except (maybe) with a hard contact. I can see better than before, without contacts, but not as good as when I had my contacts in. Now, I won't risk my right eye.
Bottom line: it's a low risk but there is still a risk. It's your eyesight. As long as you are awake and have your eyes open a PRK or LASIK fuckup will be right there bugging you. Every single minute.
Personally, if I had it to do over again I would stick with my contacts. Maybe in a few years technology will advance to the point where they can fix my messed-up eye and reduce the risk from low to astronomically low. Until then, forget it.
My mom has worked for an optomologist (sp!?) for over 12 years and he refuses to do the surgery because there is still an alarming number of patients who report their vision degenerating years after the surgery. There's not enough long term data yet to really know what's going on. Plus, even if you get the surgery, you're still predisposed to needing bifocals or readers once you get a bit older...
My dad just had this operation in Brazil two months ago. His eyes were terrible, he was pratically legally blind without his glasses. He had the surgery done... it ONLY took 3 minutes... He drove back home without glasses... 98% of his vision restored (on both eyes).
LASIK vision correction has only been around for a bit. I've heard great things, and occasionally a terrible thing or two. The procedure is no more dangerous than, say, having your appendix taken out. As a matter of fact, "Weird Al" Yankovic recently had his eyes zapped (and was quite happy with it). I got the chance to watch an operation preformed on a woman. It doesn't seem to be for the faint of heart. Her eyes were taped (to keep her from blinking) and she kept repeating "There's something wrong with my eyes" the whole time. She turned out fine. Also, chance of relapse into poor vision is slim.
In my area (Virginia Beach), LASIK is done on the cheap, which makes me wonder how much of a guniea pig you really are when you have this done.
But, the bottom line is, if you're the daring sort and have the $500 - $2,000 (per eye) to blow, go for it. With a little luck, you'll turn out better than you were before. But, be warned, problems do occur, and you may want to hold off on the procedure for another year or two.
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In a nutshell, it's still an infant technology, and the recommendation is to wait. If you can't wait, find a good doctor, and be sure to ask what his/her complication rate is - if he won't tell you drop him like a Intel 820 chipset.
There are quite a few complications.. and most people experience the so-called "halo" effect for several months after receiving the surgery. You'll also typically have to undergo multiple surgeries - mainly to "fine-tune" your vision. The procedure also isn't guaranteed to have you seeing 20/20... although between 20/20 and 20/40 is common. Some people (although uncommon) even get their vision corrected to better than normal.. as good as 20/10.
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Secondly, check with your health insurance provider. Under our health insurance, the surgery was covered.
BTW, PK (Photo Keratectomy, I think) is where they just burn the surface of the cornea with the laser. LASIK is where they slice a flap off the cornea, which is left attached by a little "hinge". They then burn the cornea to reshape it, then fold the flap back over. This apparently speeds healing and helps prevent infection and other complications. "Burn," BTW, is a bit of a misnomer, but you understand.
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Think Green... Burn only 100% recycled dinosaurs in you car.
Time magazine did a good article in October:
0 0.html
http://www.pa thfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,31865,
I was thinking about doing Lasik. I had three friends who did. 1 did great and loves it. 1 sees halos at night and glare, but loves it anyways. And i never talk to the third guy because he was such a loser.
After reading a lot of stuff, and then the Time article, I decided I'll just stick with my glasses with the tape on the bridge. I think it adds a lot to my overall seductive and erotic image, anyhow.
/will
I'm considering this too. LASIK surgery is the latest and currently considered the best form of vision-coorection surgery. Its costs vary between $4000 and $5000 total for both eyes. The procedure is outpatient and takes about 30 mins. A computer controlled scalpel opens a flap on the eye and then uses ultraviolet laser to reshape the cornea (I think, but you get the idea). Normal results get 20/20 vision with about 2-4 hours of recovery (ie go home and rest). You spend about a week using eyedrops, and are instructed not to touch your eyes at all, and to wash your hands constantly. Most doctors require 2 more visits to verify the procedure was successful. The $4000 price tag is supposed to include all subsequent checkups and the cost of additional LASIK correction (fine-tuning). Ask your doctor about that first. One of my coworkers recently had this done. He is extremely pleased with the results (translation - he is ridiculously overjoyed and exuberant at his newfound eyesight).
Numerous people have reported that after getting laser eye surgery done they could see far better than they ever had with glasses (or before they needed glasses). Someone did a study on it and discovered that as a result of the lasering, they were given 20/10(?) vision. It was on a tv or radio report (I don't recall) recently. There should be a web article on this somewhere.
My boss's wife had surgery several years ago, and her life has been terrible ever since. The doctor doing the surgery fucked it up beyond belief and butchered her corneas. She's been to specialists at UCLA and UCSD, and until very recently, they basically said, "Your eye is too far damaged for us to do anything."
As I understand it, her vision isn't even that regular, so you can't correct it. Imagine wearing scratched glasses FOREVER.
Recently, medical science has developed several techniques which might be able to help. One which was tried (and didn't have much success) was where they basically tried to re-surface the entire cornea using a laser. No go; too irregular. A new technique awaiting FDA approval that might work is where they can target the re-surfacing to the problem areas.
As you can probably imagine, this is all as painful as hell.
This doesn't mean that everybody who gets surgery has these problems, but you sure as hell want to be careful to avoid being the 1 in a million who does. Investigate your doctor, get references, do whatever you have to in order to make sure you don't take your correctable vision problem and make it into a non-correctable problem.
.. however its just that even the minute possiblity of loosing your eye-sight seems frightning. I mean, we completely depend on our vision for so many things, that a sudden loss of it woudl be devestating. Most of the comments so far seem to be +, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to overcome my paranoia. My other issue is that the procedure is rather new and the long terms effects haven't been fully studied (at least not to my knowledge). Since the operation is not neccessary to continue living, this seems like a BIG risk, even if the probability is small.
One thing to consider is that sometimes the surgery doesn't correct your vision 100%. I don't know about LASEK (sp?) but I know that Radial Karatotomy makes it impossible to wear contact lenses afterward. This would mean, then, that you might still need vision correction after the surgery, but your options would be limited to glasses.
bp
woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
My 65 year old pointy-haired boss had his eyes corrected using laser surgery here in Australia.
It was pretty expensive, but the results were incredible - one week with glasses, the next... *GONE*
He used to wear just under a centimetre thick glasses (and no, I'm not exagerrating, they looked about that). One Friday he went into surgery, having been told that everything would be a little blurry for a couple of days. On Monday, he was fine! He just said that it was lucky he did it before the weekend, because he couldn't have worked otherwise.
So, yeah... It works. He now doesn't need his glasses for most things, and he's getting weak ones for important stuff like driving (and using the 12" monitor he insists on keeping on his desk!) - and this is a guy who's been wearing glasses for the better part of forty years!
On the other hand, the one person I know personally who had laser eye surgery (I think it was LASIK) loved it. He had both eyes done on Friday and was back to work on Monday.
My wife is a GP, so she gets all the info on this stuff. I read an article in a journal which indicated that there was quite a high incidence of "loss of best-corrected vision", which essentially means that you can lose your glasses/contacts, but your sight will never be as good as it was when you had your glasses on.
It went on to suggest that it is a good procedure for the general populace, but was not recommended for people who need fine-detailed vision and those who stare at VDUs all day.
It is likely that as the procedure is developed further, these issues will be overcome.
Wait a few years, when the procedure is better understood & controlled, and the risks are lower, you'll be better off. When it comes to you sight, it's probably not a good idea to be an "early adopter".
Consumer Reports ran an article on this in their June 1999 issue. I read the article and found it pretty scary. Basically, most people who have the surgery are fine, but perhaps 10% develop unusual visual aberrations that may/may not be worse than the nearsightedness. The article also contained a handful of URLs with more extensive information to allow you to make up your own mind whether the risks are worth it.
I highly recommend reading this article before you make this decision.
In reading the posts here I've noticed some confusion about the procedures involved. Some people are confusing RK with LASIKs. The poster wants to know about LASIKs. RK is indeed unstable--in fact there was a man on the tragic expedition to Mt. Everest (the one written up in Reader's Digest a couple of years ago & I think was dramatized in the IMAX movie) who had RK done, and when he got within a few thousand yards of the summit the low atmospheric pressure at that altitude caused the surfaces of his eyes to rupture at the scar points. That was several years after the surgery! There is other research that says within 10 years some RK patients start to get farsighted and don't stop. LASIKs is still far too new for us to know what the recipients will experience 15 years from now. However, don't wait too long. My eye doctor told me that I should have it done before age 35. After that, your eyes take a lot longer to heal.
Hi
I was about ready to do it myself, and had been planning for this winter (there are many activities that you can't do within 3 or 6 months of the surgery, incl scubadiving or general watersports (i like to kayak), so i wanted to time it so that it wouldnt impact fun things).
However, i started to read some alarming things about it. While the percentages of people who have markedly improved vision is high, and quite a high percentage of those end up with 20/20 vision, what isnt often quoted is that a large percentage of people have significantly worsened night vision, permanently. Many people are no longer able to drive at night at all.
My night vision is already not so hot. Also, if your vision isnt stable, it will of course continue to not be stable after your surgery. This is also a problem i have been having, though at least my vision has been improving.
There are several alternative surgery technologies that show great promise and less risk that have not been approved yet. Things are changing so fast that it just seems prudent to not take such a risk until the techniques are more mature...
Sorry i dont have pointers to where I read this stuff or actual facts and figures. That time magazine cover from a few weeks ago was worth reading. If I were you, though, I would hesitate to make such a huge decision based on anecdotal evidence and on an immature technology, when things are changing so rapidly...
just my 2c
-chris
A friend of my just had this done to both eyes and is very happy with the results.
I mentioned this to my wife and she told me the sad tail of her hairdressers husband (..wifes hairdressers husband ... Is there any chance it's either true or accurate?)
It seems the assistant who setup/calibrated the machine got one of the factor wrong and what was suppose to be a -2.5 became 2.5. So instead of making his vision better it made it worse, much worse.
After three month and two more sugeries to try to correct the damage he is still legally blind and out of work.
And now for the morle of the story: Don't do both eyes at once.
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
When I consider how much I read, it probably makes more sense just to stick with the glasses and contacts.
My dad recently had this procedure done. Here
are a few facts about it that a recall:
Laser vision has a very high success rate. Most
people that have it will be able to pass their
drivers test(20/40 vision). People who don't
get that level of correction generally at least
have some type of correction.
Their is a small percentage of people that could
loose their vision, or will not have the
procedure have much effect. In many cases,
the procedure can cause far-sightedness(?),
at an earlier age than usuall.
The cost is generally around $1,000 - $2,000 per
eye. It is very important that before having
the procedure you are at least 21, and have had
a stable correction perscription. There are
several types of laser vision correction, some
have very low recovery times(1-2days) others
have a bit longer(40 days).
For my dad, the procedure was a complete success.
He went from legally blind to having excellent
vision that is better than mine, I have heard of
a few other things besides laser vision, but
it is one of the most successfull. The most
interesting other method I've heard about is
a lense worn a night, that causes the cornea
of the eye to reshape.
However, unless there's some compelling reason (approaching blindness, you're a football player, etc.) why you need to lose the glasses/contact and quick, I don't see a reason to rush into what seems to be still a rather immature area of medicine.
Glasses and contacts are a hassle, but the unknown long-term effects of laser vision correction should scare the bejezus out of you -- what would you do for a living if your eyes didn't work right ten years from now? The point is, we have thousands of years experience with letting eyesight get gradually worse, and we can generally predict when things about about to go seriously wrong. Until you get to that point, why risk something so important?
That said, I must admit that I dream about the day that I'll be able to wake up in the morning and see my clock again (without accidently leaving my contacts in, that is). Never having to clean my glasses or deal with a cat hair on my contact ever again is a really appealing prospect. Just not sp appealing that I'd risk making my situation worse.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The cost is much cheaper in Canada, $1000 for both eyes. The cost was finally in a range that we could afford so we took the trip from Seattle to Vancouver.
We spent about 1.5 hours in their office and when she came out her eyes were stinging a bit and sensitive to the light but she could see with out her glasses. (She got to wear those cool sun glasses.) They recommended taking a nap after the surgery so she did. After the nap, her eyes felt much better and she could see great. (Her eyes were in the range of 20/400 or so before the surgery.) The only problem she had was a little bit of a star effect at night. The next morning at the checkup, her vision was at 20/25 and most of the stinging was gone.
At her 1 month appointment she could see 20/20 and there was no more star effect at night. The only complaint she has is her eyes are dry and she is supposed to use some special eye drops for a while.
She would do it again in an instant.
One interesting thing to note is not everyone who goes to have the proceedure is able to get it done due to some thinness in their cornea. While I was waiting for my wife, a young lady was rejected at the clinic due to a thin cornea. I was suprised they did not catch it at the pre-operative eye exam. This also happened to a neighbor of mine. The clinic ended up paying for their hotel stay for the hastle in getting to Vancouver.
You're probably thinking of corneal ring implants. They insert a small (clear) plastic ring that changes the shape of the lens if I remember correctly. Last I heard, which was probably two or three years ago, it was in limited clinical trials.
Getting this done to whom?
The basic upshot is that there's about a 75-85 percent chance that your vision will improve to 20/40. Past that, the odds decrease, but are at about 40-60 percent for 20/20 vision. For a list of statistics, go here.
Side effects can include halos around bright lights, starburst effects, and other interesting visual abnormalities. They tend to go away in a few weeks to a few months.
The procedure itself is very quick, and takes about 15 min per eye. For a pretty good description of the procedure, check out this page, about halfway down.
If you do read one page on the subject, let it be this one. This page presents a negative viewpoint on LASIK surgery, with some statistics, problems, etc. I intend to have this done, but I'd still read this to make very sure that you comprehend the risks.
Price can range anywhere from $1200-$2500, depending on the place. The one I'm looking at is about $1650/eye. Most places include "touch-up" procedures (ie, the eye reshaped itself and needs re-lasering) for free in a 1-2 year period. Make sure you check about this.
Most places will allow you to watch a procedure, if you're curious. Might be a smart thing to do.
Another good place for information is the Yahoo! category dealing with the subject. Lots of good links here.
Tsu
--- Now, go away 'cuz you all up in my Kool-Aid!
Start at www.surgicaleyes.com. I was interested in this surgery, until I heard some of the horror stories. The risk is moderate, and probably acceptible for some people. The long-term consequences of reshaping the cornea are simply unknown, though. It's a real catch-22: If you're going to have surgery like this, the best time is when you're younger. The younger you are, the better the eye heals (also less chance of complications). But it will be many years before there's information on the long-term safety. And that's the real unknown: is this going to precipitate cataracts or other problems 20 years down the road? The most advanced (and most desirable) procedures simply haven't been in use long enough to generate that kind of clinical data. The eye surgeons really dropped the ball with conventional RK a few years back. I personally won't trust my eyes to them until I'm sure they have learned from past mistakes.
http://www.weirdal.com/aa.htm
I had the LASIK procedure done, and I went from "must wear contacts since glasses cut off air supply," (-6.5 diopter contacts) to 20/25 or 20/30 - which is exactly right. (A reputable doctor won't aim for 20/20 in someone pushing forty because they're going to naturally become a bit farsighted in the next few years, so I should hit 20/20 in a few years.) I also had a modest amount of astigmatism which they completely eliminated.
My advice to anyone considering LASIK surgery is to whack yourself on the head a few times with a 2x4 until you get your priorities straight.
You do NOT want to make this decision on the basis of price. I paid $5000 (both eyes, plus followups), which was the usual price quoted by reputable doctors in this area.
I could have saved a thousand dollars or two... if I was willing to have my eyes operated on by the guy who wasn't making royalty payments on his laser gear. I think my doctor said that saved him $500 or so a pop -- but it also meant that his gear wasn't getting serviced. Maybe the laser delivering less power than he thought, or more. Or maybe it was randomly mixing the two. Any variation will make it much harder to get predictable results.
Or I could have saved some money by going with the guys who had just gotten back from their seminar and were excited at getting into the exciting new world of laser surgery.
During one of my follow up visits (and with myopia this severe it took me several weeks before I could drive at night or read the newspaper without reading glasses) my doctor (not the laser guy, but the glasses guy I have seen for a decade) mentioned that he had lunch with a peer a few weeks earlier. My vision, at the time, was still a little off but it was clearly getting better every time I came in. His peer's patient started out with slightly better vision than me, but she went to a cheaper doctor and one eye had severe astigmatism and her other eye was severely overcorrected -- and LASIK correction for farsightedness is far more invasive.
The point should be clear: PRICE IS THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES. Most people are focused on the "reasonable best" that can happen (e.g., "gee, I should have 20/25 vision and not need glasses"), and not on the "reasonable worst". An experienced doctor with good corporate support might have a "reasonable worst" that you'll still need (thin) glasses at times, but you won't have major vision problems. An inexperienced doctor or even an experienced one cutting corners may have a "reasonable worst" that you'll be overcorrected (farsighted), have bad astigmatism, or worst.
Is fucked up vision for the rest of your life really worth pennies per day? ($1000/40 years is $25/year, or something like 8c/day.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Well I have Had LASIC Done. I Had it Done about 16 months Ago, And Can Say It Was worth it. here is the basic procedure. You show up to a satalite office, they take an image scan of your eye right there, look at it for 5 minutes, and tell you if you are a candidate. they give you a price, you say yes or no (mine was 2K per eye) You show up next free time they have and they put some eye drops in, rescan, some more tests, and send you on your way very suspectable to sunlight. you show up at the lazer center a week later, they make you ait 20 minutes, put you in anoter waiting room and give you a relaxant. then you wait 20 more min, go into the lazer room, lie down and they put in local anastetic. they peel back your lens, and use a lazer (computer controlled) to burn your cornea into shape. YOUR job is to look into the light, the docotr pushed the button when your eye is lined up, your eyes drift, he reminds you, you look back, one eye done, next, all done. you put on some goggles, are alked to your ride, and go home. you can open your eyes, but it is blurry from tearing,m but clear you are tired, go to bed, wake up the next day, go back. he takes off hte goggles, checks your vision, you cna see fine. he hands you eye drops for two weeks, and tells you to not touch your eyes, and wear the goggles at night for a week. you have an appointment after 1 week, 1 month, 3 months, then a year all for checkeups, all included. benefits: you can now see, and if you are less then 20/40 they will do an adjustment 6 montha later for free. you dont have to pay for contacts or glasses for a couple of years, you look less like a nerd to your college buddies and women. disadvantages: OLD technology had a small radius burn. if your pupil went larger then then burn area (at night) things got blurry and you would see halos. With NEW Stuff this doesnt happen. MAKE SURE TO ASK!!!! (if your center can do both short and long range vision problems odds are they are using the new stuff) Nothing is gureanteed, eyes change over time, thats why perscription changes. I personally can still see, and in one eye it has improved since then actually. This unfortunately also kills alot of military service things because of it is untested. Notes: ASK ALOT OF QUESTIONS!!!! ask to talk to someone which they have performed it on. DONT go cheap. ask their success rates. ask what happens if they ruin your vision. remember, thousands of peple get into accidents while driving, but you still drive.... look at the ratio of success to failure for your local doctor and decide for yourself. LASIC is the newest and best technology, dont do anythign less.
Besides, I think girls look sexier with glasses than without. :)
One year ago I had the Lasik procedure performed on both eyes (at the same time). I started reviewing my options two years prior to the surgery and settled on the (more expensive) option of Lasik because the procedure was less invasive and there were fewer, and less dramatic, side-effects and risks post-surgery. The total cost for my surgery, with a reputable physician (which I'll address momentarily), was 5k. It is very important to select a physician who not only has received GOOD training but has performed a lot of procedures. Don't hesitate to ask for specifics such as how many procedures they have performed and the rate of complications in their patients. Feel free to contact me off line if you want details on my physician, who is in the Baltimore/DC area. You have to be awake for the procedure, which can be a little disconcerting. I was offered Valium and told the standard dose is 10mg. I asked for and got 30mg so the edge on my anxiety was dulled quite a bit! The entire procedure lasted about 10 minutes with total time under the laser of 7 seconds on one eye and 6 for the other. They will let friends or family watch the procedure on a monitor and you definitely have to have someone with you to drive you home. This is my perspective of the procedure: Lay back in reclining chair with head rested in indentation. The doctor applied numbing drops to my eyes, which stung a very little bit (like dust got in my eyes). She then used a circular device to prop my right eye open (talking to me the whole time, btw) then lowered what appeared to be a circular object down on to my eye (I felt a slight pressure, which was the incision). She then used forceps to peel back the cornea flap. This was the most uncomfortable point for me because I went blind, with the darkness spreading from the outside in. When she started the laser to resurface my cornea I could 'see' the red lines going across my eye. Seven seconds later (and she was counting down) she used the forceps again to place the cornea flap back down, put in a few antibiotic drops and asked me to close my eye. After the second eye was done they gave me some dark glasses and antibiotic drops as well as some plastic shields to tape over my eyes when I slept for the next week. I could see after the procedure, but that Valium had me swaying! I went straight home to bed and slept through to the morning. When I woke up and after I'd peeled off the bug-eyed looking shields and opened my eyes for the first time it was like a miracle. My vision was perfect. Of course, out of habit I started to fumble for my glasses! I did have some side-effects for the first month. At night I would see a halo around street lights and on-coming traffic, which made driving at night a little uncomfortable for me. This resolved the first month. I am, however, more sensitive to bright lights and always wear sunglasses outside on clear days. All in all, I am very glad I had this procedure and would recommend laser corrective surgery to others with the following caveats: do your research and choose the procedure that is right for you, don't choose your procedure based on cost - wait and save more if you must or look into health savings accounts with your employer to use pre-tax $ (some will even pay for it up front and then you pay back over a period of time), don't be afraid to ask for more Valium, and find a reputable physician that makes you feel comfortable.
One of my friends made this surgery some time ago. For the life of mine, I couldn't squeeze out of him his opinion about it. Ditto for two other friends. My guess it is not a miracle cure.
There's a rumor after a while the vision starts to drop quite rapidly for some people after the surgery.
My eyesight is far from perfect, but I am not going to do the surgery. All other reasons aside, one needs to be easy on one's eyes for about 6 months, which means no computers or books. I can't imaging my life without them. Oh, and no physical activities also.
Eugene.
Vance Thompson is the LASIC guy in my area. He is supposed to be one of the best. Anyway, www.vancethompson.com may help you on your quest to eagle eye vision. If you call them I know they will answer any questions.
There are two major forms of treatment currently available: LASIK and PRK - LASIK being the most common form. If you dig deeply enough, you will likely find enough discomforting information so as to convince you away from the surgery.
In my case, I work at a company where the insurance policy covers LASIK surgery. Nearly a full third of the staff has had the procedure. All of them have been "successful" but the one thing that goes unnoticed by most people in their research is what exactly defines a successful operation.
According to the multiple sites that I had researched, surgeons consider it a successful operation if you're vision is 20/40 or better. However, according to many testimonials, some doctors don't check pupil size before surgery. If the laser diameter is smaller than your dialated pupil, be prepared for visual artifacts and likely much worsened night vision.
For more information, I highly recommend examining the following URL. What you will read may scare you.
http://www.surgicaleyes.org
The one thing to keep in mind, that I had heard while I was digging for more information, is that 1 in 50 surgeries have an undesirable outcome. The surgeries may have been deemed successful but the side effects have not been satisfactory to the recipients.
Given those odds, I was not going to wager organs that are currently unreplaceable.
Just my $0.02 and recently collected data.
sleight
We also know four or five others who have done the Lasik procedure, and only one out of all of us needed a touch-up (which is no big deal anyway).
Oh, and one possible side effect that I and one of my aquaintances have noticed is dry eyes now (though it could be that we always had dry eyes and never noticed it because of the nice wind-shields in front of our eyeballs).
--
--
"You can lead a mind to facts but you cannot make it think."
5 out of the six of us in my house have had it done or are getting done next summer (stupid school, always in the way).
it's worth it dude.
it was onfdsly $99.95 ihn mexico, whaut a deal by all mean s go for it, i get moer wimmin now, pusd peolpe say im more attractive.
gopo for it!
I had LASIK done about about 3 months ago now and have been very happy with the results. I had a very strong prescription (left eye -10.50 +2.50, right eye -10.00 +1.00) and now have 20/15 vision in both eyes. Things definitely look sharper than they ever did with glasses or contacts. It's really great to be able to see my alarm clock, too.
I have experienced one side effect, however. When my pupils are very dilated (at night, for instance) I often get halos and glare around light sources. This is due to the fact that some light still comes in through less corrected portions of the cornea around the edges, because I had such an extreme prescription and have large pupils.
I'm told that this will get somewhat better over the next few months, but may not go away completely. It's something I can adapt to, but it has made driving at night difficult at times. Even with this, I'm happy with the results.
I am reading all of these replies and it looks like the original poster is having the same problem online that he / she is having in real life: the poster is getting mostly second - hand info. I had the surgery done almost 3 months ago. (August 02, 199). Here is what happened: - I heard an ad on NPR for a local doctor that did lasik. - I made an appointment for a free initial consultation with that doctor. - I showed up in the office on a Monday. They asked me several canned questions (any history of glaucoma in my family, do i see halos, and if I was 21 YOU HAVE TO BE 21, etc) and took computer generated images of the topography of my eyes. - I went in for the surgery 2 days later. - They gave me eye drops that were so strong that they made my lips numb. They also gave me valum (it was kind of an interesting experience, actually) The eye drops were applied every 10 minutes or so for about half an hour. - I then layed back in a chair in the surgery room, (kind of like a dentist's chair) - The doctor covered one eye and taped the other one open. - He directed me to stare directly at the green laser. - He pressed a sharp, round instrument onto my eye that cut into the cornea. It then cut across. He pulled the flap back. I did not feel any pain at all. I stared at the laser and he fired serveral shots. I could literally smell my eye burning. He replaced the flap and used a brush that looked like a model car brush to paint some clear adhesive on my eye. - He then did the other eye in the exact same manner. The surgery itself took less than 10 minutes. I had to wear plastic, see-thru eye patches on the way home and big plastic sunglasses, but I was literally able to read street signs on the way home. (But the sunlight was almost blinding.) I slept the rest of the day and into the morning. I woke up at 4 am and popped in a movie in the VCR. I was able to see it without any glasses at all. I had been wearing corrective lenses since I was in the second grade. I am now 26. My left eye was at -4.25 and my right eye was at -4.75 for contacts. My right eye had astigmatism and they fixed that. I now have 15 in my left eye and 20 in my right eye. To be honest, it took me about a month to fully recover in the sense that looking at the computer screen all day hurt my eyes for that month. And, also, I had to use lots and lots of eye drops since my tear ducts crapped out from the surgery. I am doing fine now. The cost was $4,000 US, but they financed the whole thing since my insurance did not cover it. I am so glad that I had the surgery. I would recommend to most anyone who wants a change. I guess what I am saying is that if you are tired of cleaning contacts, losing contacts, breaking glassess, etc, go for the surgery. I went on my first hiking trip without corrective lenses last weekend and it made the experience so much better. Hope this helps. Good luck.
In America, there are 160 million people wearing either glasses or contacts. (TIME, 1999) There are two different forms of laser surgery. One is called "PRK", which stands for "photorefractive keratectomy", and the other is called "LASIK", which stands for "laser in situ Keratomileusis". There are some fundamental differences between these two procedures. Basically, the PRK method is used most often on smaller, less drastic eye corrections. It has virtually no human involvement (there are no cuts made by a doctor because only a machine does any slicing) but it has a longer recovery period. LASIK is used for more drastic changes in vision quality and has a faster recovery period. This procedure depends more on the doctor making cuts, so there is more need to be absolutely sure that the doctor is experienced with this particular treatment. A basic thing to be concerned about is actually, it turns out, the software used for the laser path. Depending who you go to, newer software will be available for better vision. This cost is, of course, passed on to the patient which is something else to consider. If you are interested in seeing a photo essay example of LASIK surgery, that is available here. And for those squeamish folks out there, these are illustrations. No blood, no gore. Check it out.
Well, I asked my eye doctor about the surgery about 6 months ago, when I had my last exam. He said I'm an excellent candidate, etc. etc. etc. but then talked about his misgivings about the procedure:
1) He doesn't recommend it until you're 25- he says that before then your eyes are still growing and changing.
2) There have been no long term studies on the after-effects of the surgery. He described how before the surgery, the cornea is a grid of perfect hexagons, and after the surgery, the grid is gone, replaced by fused cells, small lesions, etc. He said that theoretically that should have no effect on the long-term health of the eye, but that lesions and fused cells don't make him comfortable.
He was overall definitely enthusiastic, but I think those two misgivings are definitely something to mention to your eye doctor when discussing the procedure.
Matt Zito
me@mzi.to
The odds are improving all the time with laser eye treatments, and there are some new things on the horizon to keep an eye out for.
I can't remember what program it was on, but I *think* it was one of the network nightly newscasts that did a feature on an engineering firm in Silicon Vally that is about to start trials on a new system. It appears to be some insanely precise machinery to control the laser more accurately. Their goal (and it looks good so far) is *not* 20/20 vision - they aim for 20/10...and in fact plan on marketing it to people with normal eyesight who would like legendary eyesight...
20/20 vision is *not* perfect vision - it's just the standard on the old eye chart from 1840's or 1850's (I think). BTW - apparently they have done some operations during research, and average about 20/12 vision...
To summarize, something like this sounds like a real advance - even if the surgery doesn't go quite right, you would still probably wind up with 20/20 or so - but, as with anything medical, there's always that chance...
Wish I had a URL, but can't find one right now
Try checking out:
t m
http://www.theeyeinstitute.com.au/laser/laser.h
This is the site of an australian place which has been doing this kind of surgery for at least 8 or 9 years. I have found the doctors here to be very good, and I think they are some of the best here in OZ (at least their qualifications seem to indicate so).
They also have a half decent history of the operations etc, although IMHO they could go into a bit more detail.
AO
I want to share my experience with you, as I do with everyone who is considering this surgery. I am quite enthusiastic of doing so, since my experience was so positive. I did mine in the Eye (Not eye, but Oftalmologico, to lazy to go for the dictionary) Clinic in Cali, Colombia. The doctors here are highly trained prophesionals, and the equipment is the latest. They are very experience, one of the first institutions to do this surgery in south america and the first in my country.
:)
Before the operation they do all kind of tests to ensure success in the surgery. I specially remember a test where they did a 3D scan of your eye, and based on the 3D relief they got they planned the laser strength and distribution to shape your eyeball to the correct geometric proportions it should have. All done by computers, and being a geek I was quite amazed by it. Not your 'read the letters' kind of eye exam.
The surgery is very safe, and has a lot of advantages over the old type of surgery. If anything goes wrong, it can be repeated within 1 week to correct the error. In the old surgery you had to wait for 6 monthes for the eye to heal itself. It is ambulatory (??), you walk out of the operating room with your eyes open. The old operation depended on the skill of the surgeon, since he used a blade directly on your eye, and made cuts to correct the geometry of your eyes. The risks where high, and I know people who blew their eyesight for ever with this old surgery. In this one, the only risk factor is that YOU move your eyes when the laser is active, so it all goes down to you. Let me tell you about the surgery.
It is a simple process, you feel no pain at all and most of what happens is psychological, since you are awake and seeing everything that is happening through the eye they are operating on. But you do not feel a thing, trust me on that. First, they clean your eye throughly and put pain killers and medicine on it. Then, they fix a suction pump in the form of a ring around your eyeball, which make your eyeball flat so they can use a high frequency vibrating blade to peel up a very thin slice of your cornea. The take this round section off, you actually see it as they take it away, about the size of a contact lense. Then, they put you underneath the machine, under the laser, and tell you to hold still and stare at a led. This is the critical part, as they beggin firing the laser, you need to hold still. They did 40 firings on one of my eyes, 35 on the other one. You can even fill a smell of burning flesh in the air. After the firings, they clean the ashes away, and put the piece of cornea back on top of where they cutted it. The cornea is the part of the body that heals faster, and within five minutes you can blink safely. You go out of the hospital within 15 minutes, walking, with your eye open, only protected by a little plastic shell so, that night, you will not risk peeling away the cornea which is still not 100% stuck in place. They did one eye on tuesdaym the other on thursday. They normally do it this way. Slowly I began to get my vision back, within a day I could read a little and watch TV, and within a week resume normal computer usage. The only thing I felt for about 2 or 3 weeks was a very high sensibility to bright light, had to wear sunglasses and car headlight hurted me. This is how the operation works, sorry for my language, my english is not the best and obviously i know s**t about medical terms. Dont let my crude description of the process scare you, it is quite amazing to live through it, and you do not feel a thing, as I said, you are very tense but it is all psychological.
I would recomend to anyone doing the operation in a country like Colombia. Medicine here is great, and it is very cheap. The doctor is very well learned and travels 3-4 times a year to the states and world wide to conferences and stuff, speaks excelent english, and is very well knows. When I did the surgery, 3 years ago, they had performed more or less 200 surgerys, with only 5 out of aceptance range (+- 0.5 I think) which were corrected, and 1 that had problems. 3 years into the operation my eyesight is still perfect. They even overcorrected me for the best. My eyesight problem was still increasing, so they overdid it so, 3 years after, my eyesight has stabilized a little over 20/20. If you want further info, email me and I would give you the email of the doctor. He can inform you of costs involved. I do not know if they are doing this surgery yet in the states, they weren't on the time I underwent it. If you do the surgery overseas and the doctors are responsible, you will have to travel twice, once to get the tests done, the other to take the surgery itselt. I think so. Do not know the reasons, I had to take two series of tests, very throught (complete), 2 monthes before and a week before. Also, I could not use contact lenses for 3 monthes before and stay away from pools for a couple of weeks before. Of course, after the operation, you have to stay away from pools for a while, take some medicine in drops, and stay away from doing effort with your eyes for a week or so.
Overall, I hope this help. Email me with any question you got, I would be happy to help. My recommendation is go for it, it is great, will make you very happy, absolutely risk free and very well worth the cost and (small) inconvenience.
Best wishes,
Venturello
pd. Sorry for my english. Dont flame me or correct me as usual for it!
I know a woman who lost her eye because the doctor who performed the surgery dropped one of his tools on the floor, picked it up, and continued the procedure with the non-sterile tool. Laser beams makes a nice hole for bacteria to pass into the inner eye - nasty stuff.
Oh, so that thing I got you for your birthday ruined your eyesight for the rest of your life?
Oh...
Well....
Well, shit happens I guess. Next year I'll get you a tie.
You can bet that will be a happy marriage.
There's a lot of good information over at the UCSD Shiley Eye Center. One of my good friend's wife is going to get Intacs next Wednesday at Shiley, we'll see how it goes. And if it works well, I may be next in line!
I understand UCLA has done a lot of good work with laser eye surgery. More info can be consumed at www.universitylaser.com
:(
On a side note, there was an article in the paper a while ago that discussed an alternative to laser eye surgery. It consisted of making a small slit under the pupil of the eye, and sliding in a thin piece of fingernail shaped plastic. It squeezes the lens of the eye in a particular (corrective) shape, and although uncomfortable at first (the eye feels "tight"), it is a good alternative to laser surgery because it is completely reversible (they just take out the little plasic piece). I tried to find more info on this on the web but couldn't.
-----------------
Your attention please everyone, if I could just say a few words... I would be a better public speaker.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
I got a car for only $2500, and it isn't a piece of crap...
Oh wait, yes it is.
A Hack should be known for the technical merits of how it was accomplished, not for how cool the web site looked afterwards. I guess that's all consumers can understand, though
My dad had LASIK done more than a year ago. It corrected his eyesight to 20/20, but it also left his eyes sore and often extremely painful for a while afterward, so it ended up being something of a mixed bag. His night vision is horrible, BUT he's still seeing one hell of a lot better than he did before, so he's personally glad that he had it done, regardless of the bad stuff that went with it.
I had the LASIC surgery done in April. All I
can say is that it is incredible!!! It cost
about $1500 per eye. THe entire procedure
takes about 10 minutes. You're in and out
in about 30 minutes.
I went from really bad eyes, -5.5 and -6 to
20/20 vision. I saw starburst around lights
for a while, only at night. But this has
been fading gradually since the operation. I
notice it every now and then when my eyes
are dry, but that's it (it's been six months).
If you want to find out about it, go make an
appointment for a consultation with a doctor.
It's free, and they tell you all about the
procedure. Set up several of these, and read
the information they give you.
The procedure itself is very mechanical, and
is mostly done by the machine. There aren't
many ways that it can go wrong. No one has
ever gone blind having this done!!! The biggest
risk is over or under correction. The trickiest
part of the whole ordeal is getting your
prescription right so that they correct properly.
A friend of mine was overcorrected. His vision
was not 20/20 in one eye, and he had to go back
to have this fixed, now he is fine.
I have't heard any real horror stories from anyone.
I remember waking up the day after and being
able to read the clock. I was amazed. Now,
I can't even remember what it was like to deal
with glasses and contacts.
My mother, father, and grandparents have all had the surgury. Luckily i have good vision, so i don't need it. The procedure goes like this. First you go in for a consultation. Then you set an appointment to get one eye done. You come to your appointment and are put to sleep under anesthesia for 1 hour or so. The doctor performs the surgury(details at http://www.shugar.com ). You are brought back from dream land and walk out the door that afternoon. You will have to take drops for a couple day, but after that you are all done. A few days later you will be totally healed and your vision will 99% of the time be as you desired. The next week you can/will go back to have your second eye done. It is my understanding that a lens is put "into" your eye. Kinda like a contact, but inside your eye. My mother does the anesthesia at http://www.shugar.com , and she hasn't seen a failure in the two years she worked there. I'm not sure about the specifics of the insurance coverage, but i do know that some insurance policies have covered the surgury. eot
I had LASIK surgery 18 months ago. I had both eyes done at the same time. This was a new version of LASIK that supports correction of astigmatism. I had astigmatism nearly as bad in both eyes as my near sightedness, which wasn't horrible -5.5, but combined with the astigmatism, it made me nearly blind w/o glasses.
The proceedure itself took less than 20 minutes. The majority of the work goes into the planning, checking, and rechecking of the proposed modifications done to the surface of your eye.
It's very cool, I have a video of the proceedure.
Basically, they use a device that planes the top of your cornea into a "flap", which gets flipped out of the way. They then laze away the various parts of your eye to bring the topography back into norm. The flap gets replaced. No sutures, the flap stays via suction.
That is why it's quite important that you follow the directions explicitly after surgery. The surgery itself is less than half the solution, the healing process is critical to ensuring your vision becomes 20/20. DO wear the protective sheilding. DO use the rewetting drops. DO NOT rub your eyes. DO follow up with all your follow-up visits.
There are many possible complications to the proceedure. Immediately after surgery your eyes are extremely sensitive to light. It also feels like sand is in your eyes for a few hours after surgery. I also personally experienced coronas at night around lights. It made driving the first few days nearly impossible. It lessened and at the end of two weeks was gone. Other complications can arise, especially infection.
Your vision continues to change, noticably for the first 6 months. You can see better immediatly, if the surgery is a success. The Dr.s normally aim on the 20/40 side of 20/20. They generally don't touch up if your 20/40 or better, but will touch up after a month if they need to. (I didn't need to)
My vision is essentially somewhere between 20/20 and 20/15. I have a very slight astigmatism in my left eye still, but it's not enough that it distorts my vision noticably (unless I'm taking an eye exam and get down to 20/20-20/15 tests).
I paid $2100/eye. Correction w/o astigmatism was $1900/eye.
My personal opinion: It's the best $4200 I've spent. Ever. I am now liberated. I can ski. Swim. Dive. Surf. Play sports. Wake up & see. Be intimate. Anything. I _enjoy_ buying Sunglasses again! I didn't do it for cosmetic reasons, I did it so I could live my life the way I wanted to. And that's the only reason to do it.
If glasses aren't preventing you from doing anything you want to do, then LASIK eye surgery is a frivilous, unnecessary risk. Otherwise, it's a personal decision that you'll have to evaluate yourself.
There are _no_ regrets in my decision.
--
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld
pretty good deal i think
Remember the side effects: possible haloes or star-shapes at night. Do you need to drive at night? (What about if the server goes down at 1am?) Do you need high-detail work? Microscopy might be affected. Astronomical telescopy would definitely be affected. Remember: haloes from contacts, take out the contacts. Haloes from corrective surgery--take out your corneas?!
1. Pre-checkup with your eye doctor.
2. Pre-checkup with laser surgeon (usually not the doctor himself, but someone who works at his center)
3. Surgery: Wait. Fill out forms. Wait. Get your bp taken and get some drops put in. Then, go in for preparation. This involves putting in eye drops as well as getting something to calm you down. They also clean off your forehead. By the time you go to surgery (a couple of min. later), your eyes are anesthesized and you are walking funny. They walk you over to surgery and start the procedure, which should be done in about 5 min., depending on how much correction is necessary. The scariest part for me was the thought of them clamping back my eyelids. It was kind of uncomfortable but not that bad. And it was over so quickly. Just a couple of minutes for each eye. They peel back a section of cornea, run the laser, then lay it back down. You can't really see what's going on. When you're done, they take your bp again, check your eyes, then let you go.
4. Recovery: You're supposed to rest the rest of the day, and be easy on your eyes. Supposedly, you can watch TV, but my mom didn't let me. (I was 20 years old, *shrug*) You should stay easy on the eyes for about a week, until you go to see your eye doctor. You're allowed to start reading, etc. in a couple of days, but I'd not do it to much at least for a week. It's still kind of delicate for a couple of weeks. After a month or so (and another doctor's visit), you're pretty much back to normal, but don't go poking your eye or anything. After 3 months, you have another visit, then a 6 month visit, then it's over. You DON'T have to stop reading, physical activity, etc., for 6 months, as someone said!
Yes, some people have to get "enhancements" -- I did. It's easier the second time around, imo, though some people think it's more difficult. At least there's no cutting involved the second time around. Anyway, I'm free of glasses now and my vision's great.
I forgot to comment on the pain. It's really not much. When the anesthesia starts to wear off, you'll feel some pinching sensations, but after the first day, they'll be mostly gone. If you TOUCH your eye, it will hurt. So don't do that.\
As for costs, yes, it's expensive, but luckily my parents' insurance is among the few that covers it. Hopefully this will spread.
The effects of the operation arent permanent. After a few years, your eyes are as bad as they were before. With the exception that scar tissue makes wearing contact lenses impossible. The only option is wearing glasses then, or having another dangerous and expensive operation
I had it done in Sydney last december. I was -1 and -2 and have had no problems since! The only thing I have is that at night, I get a 'star' effect around lights and reflective signs (cringe) when my eye is dry. Standard eye drops fix that, no problem - I drove to adelaide and back(~1400kms each way) without any problems whatever. It cost me about $1200AUS for each eye but was well worth it! I want to dive and have since got my bike licence without any problems. I am still amazed at what I can see when bushwalking or down the beach as opposed to last year when anything further than 6 feet started to get to hazy. If you want a life outside occasionally, GO FOR IT! I've never looked back! I can now meet that ellusive girls eyes from across the room! ;)
What in the world does this have to do with computer's, technology? Has slashdot become an open forum to anything? I can understand the Space exploration/biotech stuff, but eye correction? Whats the next thing? Best doctor to remove tonsils(sp?) or how about best sex change doctor?
Eventhough the normal health issues should be undertaken, there are still people out there that just have bad eyesight. About a half of a year ago, I was able to witness the lasik laser procedure. It was quite interesting, but I was looking for the standard blood and scalpal and was quite let down. They simply cut a small piece of the outer covering of the eye into a flap, then blast away with a laser. This laser has been preprogrammed to the peaks and troughs of your eye which were obtained in pre-op with a different machine. The laser simply fires away until the peaks are not so tall and stops automatically. That flap of eye covering is then folded back into its original place. After this and a few hours of recovery, you go home feeling like you have a grain or two of sand in your eye. The next morning, you throw out the glasses. A week later, you're back to 'normal.' Excellent procedure, but uncreibally expensive, and it is usually done in a doctor's office in a few hours. If you have the money, it looks like a good idea.
I hope you find what you're looking for.
--
Gabriel Ricard
Linux Fanatic
Gabriel Ricard
So whats his unreasonable worst? Where do you draw the line? Money might be able to buy you a risk reduction, but lets be real... the reasonable worst thing to expect from any doctor is that he totally fucks you up. He's humand and this is the real world. You cannot control everything.
Okay, I had this done so here's the deal with LASIK. The way it works is that the doctor treats your eyes with numbing drops and then uses a small device to slice a flap in your cornea (the outer layer of your eye). They peel back the slice and hit the under-layers of the cornea with an excimer (sp?) laser. The laser removes some of the tissue to reshape your cornea. The ammount of time they use the laser depends on your perscription before the procedure. They then replace the cornea flap and you're done. The entire procedure takes about 15 minutes for both eyes. It is somewhat uncomfortable while they are creating the flap, but it isn't too bad. You won't be able to see very well right after the procedure, and the worst part of the whole thing is that your eyes burn quite a bit starting about an hour after the procedure. They give you drops that help with that. When I woke up the next morning, I could see quite well. I believe that the flap in the cornea actually heals almost completely withing about the first 48 hours after the procedure. At my followup appointment the day after I had at least 20/20 in one eye and about 20/25 in the other. I'm now at least 20/20 in both eyes.
If you use a good doctor, he should offer a life-tine guarantee so that if your perscription changes later you can have it done again at no charge. I had it done at the Laser Center in Baltimore, MD. I know that one is a nationwide chain. They also do PRK (directly hit the outer layer of the cornea with the laser; I think it takes longer to heal and has a higher risk). I know that LASIK can cure myopia, hyperopia, and astigmatism. The chance of success (reaching 20/40 or better) varries from person to person.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
The whole surgery took less than an hour. They use anesthetic eyedrops, so you are awake the entire time. The only part of the surgery that I wasn't ecstatic about was when they put the suction cups on my eye to keep it still. It didn't hurt, rather it was unpleasant in the same way that the blood pressure cuff is unpleasant at the hospital: it doesn't hurt, but you'd rather not have it on all day! Anyway, when they apply the suction, your vision blacks our momentarily. This freaked me out the first time and I tried to fight it. While your vision is blacked out, you hear a tiny buzzing noise as they use a tiny saw to cut the necessary flap in your eye. I guess it's a good thing that you can't see because I know I'd be freaking out if I saw this tiny blade sweeping across my eye! Upon cutting the flap, your vision is restored in that eye, and you can see them lift the flap up. Things get really fuzzy at that point. You are instructed to look at a blinking light, and you hear the beeping as the laser is activated. Your vision becomes increasingly clear as the seconds go by. Also, you can smell the tissue burning if the laser is applied long enough. The real shocker is when they put the flap back down over your eye...perfect vision!
After the surgery you will have a tiny red dot on each eye where they made the incision to cut the flap, and these take about 3 weeks to completely go away. Be prepared for the "What happened to your eye" questions.
Anyway, I was able to see immediately after the surgery, and walked out of there unassisted. The next day I was seeing 20/25, and was driving within three days (could've been sooner but I opted to play it safe). By the time August rolled around, I was seeing 20/20 in both eyes.
The only bad thing about LASIK is night vision. You'll see halos around lights for a good couple of months. My doctor said the reason I still see them is because I have larger pupils than most people, and he could prescribe eye drops if it bothered me that much, but it doesn't.
I would definitely recommend the surgery. I was near-sighted with a lot of astigmatism and used to wear some pretty thick bottlecaps, but now I'm free of contacts and glasses. Of course, at the rate I'm playing Quake3, I'll be back to four-eyes in no time!
I scanned the before/after topo maps of my eyes. They can be viewed by clicking here. The two circles at the top represent the before images. You'll notice the hour-glass shaped region of astigmatism. The bottom two circles show the results of the surgery. As you can see, they went in and reshaped my cornea, lowering it by about 10%, causing my "football-shaped" eye to flatten out some.
Another option you might consider is corneal rings. These are implanted in the eye and work for near-sightedness because they flatten the cornea. The good thing about this surgery is it's reversible. If you change your mind and want to go back to glasses/contacts, you can just have them removed, unlike the LASIK approach. Plus I think it's cheaper.
Do I need to go to Slashdot now for medical advice? Seriously... Call a damn doctor.
... does staring into a monitor for some 5/10/whatever hours a day significantly worsen your vision? My contacts are -7.00 strength (for those not in the know, blind). It's really horrible. I have the worst eyesight of anyone I know, the worst of all the people in my family, and not conincidentally I am on the computer more than anyone I know or anyone in my family. Is that old wives tale about watching too much TV making you go blind really true? Oh yeah, something else that's crazy, my strapped for cash friend who is also blind like me exploded his monitor one day and couldn't afford a new one for six months. I swear to god, his vision actually improved during the six months he wasn't on a PC (he never watches TV). He got the monitor; it got worse again. I'm suspicious here... is my 19" tube making me blind?
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
After reading that I'm not quite sure that valium is enough to hold me down while they pull the cornea off my eye.
If you do it in California, can the doctor perscripe you some pot?
-
And I'm glad. It cost about $1500 an eye. I had it done over a year ago.
They don't put you out for it. They numb your eyes, you lay back, and stare at the red light (to keep your eyes still). They make an incision in your eye, and peel back the skin on the cornea, and zap you with the laser underneath. Then they flip the skin back over and it heals in a few days. You have to wear these bug-eye things over your eyes when you sleep for the week following, which is kind of annoying.
Before I had it done, my vision was BAD. I'm talking, forget the eye chart with the letters, the doctor was asking if I could tell how many fingers he was holding up. I couldn't. After the surgery, my vision is 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. I could see by the next day, and within a week, I could see perfectly.
My father had it done at the same time, and it took his eyes about two or three months to stabilize, but when they finally did, he could see great without glasses or contacts too. Apparently his eyes weren't quite as resilient as mine (I was 18, he was 48).
Neither of us have had to go back for touch-ups, and vision is still good. Having this done was one of the best things to ever happen to me. No more irritating glasses or contacts.
there are two things you don't skimp on. One is parachutes. The other is your eyesight.
Regardless of the spiffy optical plan that has been provided me, I still have to pay for the glasses I want. (Well, either that, or get frames that make the bumper on my truck look like a toothpic.) The whole issue for me is convenience. Glasses collect scratches, dirt, and other annoyances. Contacts have a tendency to do the same. (Yeech!) --- Anxiously Awaiting the Lazer
I have had PRK (Photo-refractive Keratectomy). My sister and her husband have had PRK as well. It's great!
I have met some doctors who new people who had Lasik and had some problems with it. They were probably idiots though as they had had both eyes done at the same time!
PRK generally gives the better results, but it is more painful. Although the operation takes around 20-50 seconds, you are basically out of action for a couple of days, and then you can't do much vision-stressing tasks for another three or four days.
Lasik is supposed to be less painful, and some people find that appealing. The operation take slightly longer (a few minutes, vs 30-50 seconds).
I now have 6/6 (20/20 in imperial measures) vision in one eye, and 6/8 in the other (I think). One isn't perfect anyway, but the other is. I don't have a problem looking at my laptop screen with either eye, and I can see distant things crisply as well.
You can choose to get slightly undercorrected in one eye if you are approaching an age when long-sightedness is starting to become an issue (around 45 - which I am getting on for myself).
Caveat Emptor applies. YMMV!
Andrew.
You results will very, but my vision was inproved greatly from 20/2000 before the surgry, to initaly 20/120 afterwards. After my eyes had a chance to adjust, my vision latter inproved to 20/60 in the left eye, and near 20/20 in the right eye. However, there are risks, and the surgry is not for everyone.
I have some advice that may save you some surprises and posiable problems down the road:
I recommend that you get the surgery done at the Vision Surgery & Laser Center in La Hoya, California if you can make the trip, since, IMO, they have the most experience. Wherever you chose to get it done, make sure you find out how many eyes they've done to date. The places that have most experanced doctors are the places that have done the most eyes. There is a big diffrence between the experance level of a doctor who has done a dozen eyes, and a doctor who has done a couple thousand, and you'll want the doctor who has the most experance.
If you are going out-of-state to have the surgry, then, if you can, plan to arrive at least 2 days before the surgery is scheduled to be done. This will give you enough time to get settled in and adjust to any time zone changes before having to deal with the surgery. Also, plan to stay at least 2 or 3 days after the surgery to recover before going home. Trust me, you're not going to be able to see well enough to do any traveling initailly after the surgry. You'll need to stay overnight after the surgery, anyways, because they'll need to check your eyes the next day.
After the surgery, you will experience poor vision, and that may last for a few days. It would be a good idea to have someone give you a ride back afterward. Also, you might not want to do any reading or computer work for a few days afterward.
Your eyes will be sensitive to light for at least a couple of days after the surgery. If your going to be staying at a hotel afterwards, your better off IMO staying in one that caters to business travelers (ex. has room darkening curtains, has a shuttle service, ect.).
Finally, they'll give you a kit that includes, among other things, a couple of eyeshelds and some moisturizing and medicating drops. Be sure to follow the doctor's instructions for the medications they'll give you. Also, be sure to allow enough time between each set of drops to give the eye drops enough time to work befor you put the other set of drops in. You'll need to stop by a pharmacy after they give you your kit, they'll give you some prescriptions that you'll need to fill, and the small bottle of moisturizing drops they give you is only intended to last for 2-3 days (you'll need them for months). Also, you'll need to wear the eyeshilds for a week, when you go to sleep, to protect your eyes. Don't be in a hurry when you take them off, the tape they give you loves skin, you'll have to literally peel the tape off your face.
Hope this bit of advice helps, and good luck on yopur eye surgry.
Then that will the last time you *see* the "blue screen of death."
You can check out a recent article in TIME magazine. It discusses the pros and cons of laser treatment.
___________
PRK - This method is very safe - it has been around for a while so we know it is.
LASIK - Very safe as well, but not quite as safe as PRK. When I did my laser surgery erlier this year (in May) they had not found the bug in the LASIK machine (that cuts off the thin surface layer of the eye). The bug caused the machine to suddely stop in the middle of the surgical procedure, in like 1 case out of 100 000 or something, I don't remember the exact figure but it was pretty unlikely. Since the manfacturer could not recreate this unusual bug they just raised the feeding voltage by around 0.1-0.2 volts, and hoped it would go away. I don't know if it did solve the problem.
The result of the LASIK treatment is not quite as good. This is due to the extra surgical step that adds another variable in the procedure. It is of course "good enough", but don't belive if they say there is no difference, there is, at least according to the people making the LASIK machines themselves. After the eyes have healed for 2-3 months the PRK eyes are better than the LASIK eyes.
LASIK is very popular though, expecially in the U.S., thanks to its instant effect. It is however usually more expensive and, as I wrote, less safe. It is good if you can't stand a few days without vision on your treated eye, and also if your correction is worse than -4.
It is hard to fit two months of research into one Slashdot posting :) Questions?
- El riesgo siempre vive - Private J. Vasquez
There's been a lot of comment about this, but let me summarise. There are two types of surgery; Photo Refractive Kerotomy and "LASIK". PRK is good for normal myopia while the latter is a newer technique that is supposed to fix the more short sighted of us! The first takes up to 30 seconds (my right eye took 13 seconds) while a laser burnt off a part of your cornea; effectively imagine the surgeon is putting the glasses directly on your eye. PRK seems very effective, certainly in my case, and has been around in the UK for about 15 years now. The big drawback until 6 years ago was that the laser only operated on a 5mm diameter area on your eye; causing halos around lights at night for ppl with wide pupils like me (6mm!). The newer kit works on a 7mm diameter area, which improves things no end. I my case (no astigmatism and 1.25 dioptres short sighted) it was perfect, but the first 24 hours after the op was hell; be warned! The specialists in the UK are Optimax who charge about $650 per eye. I'd definitely reccomend them
// Hmm, another variant of IE/W9x/NT to add to the "integrated MS value proposition"
What does this MEDICAL question have to do with 'ASK Slashdot'
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed...
Check out http://www.i-see.org for information on natural eyesight enhancement. I know it works to at least some extent (my brother could better his vision by around 1.5 diopters in 6 months), but requires dedication.
The cornea can get scratched, especially if something gets stuck between the contact and the eye
Contacts may harm the eye's blood circulation
Could laser surgery be a safer long term alternative? Anyone have a link regarding long-term effects of wearing contacts vs. effects of surgery?
I saw a television new segment the other day about VisX, the company that makes the laser equipment. They are just now coming out with a new diagnostic device that more accurately measures your eye. They are already able to hit 20/20 most of the time, but with the new technology that is coming out, you'll be able to have "better than perfect" vision -- 20/10 in many cases. This is perhaps the first time in history that there has been surgery available to improve human functionality beyond what is "natural". If you don't think that's cool, you have no business calling yourself a geek, I say. Should be out by the end of next year....
Wikia
There's another option that's quite nice.
Rigid gas-permeable lenses....
The trick is to put them in before you go to bed and take them out the next morning....
Given a good 6-8 hours of sleep, your eyes will stay adjusted to the curve of the lens and you
will have good vision for the next 8-12hrs WITHOUT
having the lenses in.
The more near-sighted you are, the less effective this is,
or rather shorter period of time it stays effective...
but it's great for kids.... ask your Opthomalogist.
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
I had the LASIK operation done in April last year in South Africa. This is before it was available in the USA. Think of me as your 3rd world guinea pig! This was after they had been doing it for about 5 years here so I thought it was safe enough now.
:(.
My conclusion: I love it!
The operation is done under local anaesthetic (some numbing eyedrops) and naturally, your eye is open during the lasering so you can see everything (except for the main event when they lift up a flap of the cornea - it goes blurry then). However it is over in 20 minutes for both eyes, and the actual laser is on for maybe 20 seconds per eye. It is no more nerve-wracking than a body piercing. You walk out. They like to do the ops on Fridays so that the patients can be back at work on Monday.
What the other posters have said is true - things will be blurry for a few days, it takes weeks for your vision to settle down, there are starbursts around lights at night for a while, the operation is probabilistic thing (but with a very good chance (95%+) that your vision will improve a lot). As my doctor explained - the greater the defect, the less chance of getting perfect vision. However, The greater the defect, the greater the miracle from near-perfect vision.
Also, though you may feel Ok after, lie low for a few days. No computer for 2-3 days
I know a guy who when to a party and sat around a fire maybe 2 days after the op. Bad move - he got an infection. I remeber setting the font on my email program to "really huge" so that I could get a fix on the first blurry day.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
I recently backed down from having LASIK performed to correct my vision. I was not happy with the vagueness of the expected result, and the incredibly long list of possible side effects they wanted me to sign off on.
For $2500 I want a guarantee. Since that isn't possible I want a guarantee that they will 'make things right' if there is a problem. Since I couldn't get that I backed off.
After seeing this site I'm glad I backed off.
http://www.surgicaleyes.org/
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
A friend of mine had it done. When he drives at night he can see lines of light from where the cuts were made. Another surgery may or may not help.
I have a big bag full of two cents and I'm coming your way.
This fall my father had his eyes done at a place called LasikVision Canada. 1000 US$(1600 .ca) for both eyes, using the generation 4 equipment (the one that follows your eye movement, instead of the doctor.) Even with the drive up (he drove home the next day,) a few nights in hotels, and geting his later checkups locally, he came out ahead of the 3-4000 that the local doctors wanted to perform the procedure with generation 3 eq.
Seems like a good deal to me.
-- Nate
I recently saw an very good piece on eye laser surgery in "Fortune". You can not read it online, but nethertheless you can learn more here.
It basically says thatthere is a boom in laser eye surgery and that this will be the most common surgery soon. They claim that it is possible to achieve near-perfect sight now, but in 2-3 years, it should be possible to get more-than-perfect sight. The main problem is to hold the eye rigid during the surgery. Now omeone has invented a radar system which scans the eye 4000 times a second. The laser can then follow all eye movements and therefore cut a perfect circle. This should correct the "glare" some people have around their sight after the surgery (because of uneven cuts).
surgery is always a risk. This is more worthy than that plastic surgery stuff (I can't understand why anyone would take the risk of surgery just to look fake...) but I'm going to wait at least 10-15 years before I even consider doing this. You mean you have to open your eyes and _see_ while they cut it? That scares me like hell. I should spend the next 10-15 years practicing yoga meditation before doing something like that. Otherwise I'll probably need another session of surgery...for a heart attack
---
A few years back (in the years that memory strips were called SIMM's), I had a problem with a new bought SIMM. A friend of me (who had the operation done took a look a the SIMM and could point out a scratch on that SIMM in a matter of moments. No one else could see it with the naked eye, even if he pointed out where the scratch was. hmm .. supersight :o
I think the big problem is people not shopping around for their doctors well. Before I had LASIK my eyes were pretty bad, I could make out the E on the chart and could guess some of the letters on the line below it but that was about all. I don't have my last prescreption handy and don't remember exactly how bad I was.
I've been waiting quite a while for many of the clinical trials to finish. My normal eye care doctor also had been watching the trials and was trained in RK but refused to use it. Recently he told me I should look into LASIK and I did. With a vengence.
I spent over 4 hours talking with the doctor who I eventually had do my surgury. I spoke with nearly a dozen of the over 1,000 patients he had already treated. Oh, and I went to the most respectable clinic in my area to find him. (Cleveland Clinic for reference) I asked him flat out about many of the possible outcomes and complications and he did NOT try to sugar coat anything. He was very upfront and honest. After that I researched the research and statistics that were available regarding LASIK. Specifically I got the statistics on the procedures he had performed and the statistics of the people who had trained him. I was willing to play the odds based on what I saw.
Oh I should also mention that he warned me beforehand that my pupils were borderline on being large enough to cause problems with Night Vision.
If given the chance again I would definatly have the surgure again. I can now read the 20/20 line as if it was a book in front of my face, and the 20/15 isn't much harder. I can do better but that depends on the lighting. In bright light I feel like an Eagle. In dim light I'm still 20/20 but can notice some haze around light sources. (Still not as bad as the bluring when my glasses used to get dirty [10 minutes after washing them]).
However, I do not like driving at night any more than necessary expect in brightly lit areas. As long as I concentrate I don't notice the halos around headlights. But if I let my concentration down and my eyes start to relax it can become very distracting. (I am easily distracted however!).
Overall If you are thinking about surgury give LASIK a good strong look but be sure to do your OWN research and not take anyone else's at face value. I've seen plenty of explanations of the same statistics that are damn convincing in both directions. Get the stats yourself and make your own decesions.
--- Juggle juggle@hitesman.com
I have careta conis (sp?, bulging corneas), and though glasses help, they don't do a good enough job. I wouldn't mind if I still had to wear glasses after undergoing such surgery, so long as it resulted in the glasses actually working well. (ie the distortion caused by the cornea is corected)
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
More important than risks and gains, costs and doctors, or any of these things, how about we slap linux on some of those lasers and beowulf 'em? They could crack DES like no tomorrow
That is just chromatic aberations in the lens. If you look through the centre of the lens there will be no problem, but it will get worse towards the top/bottom/sides. I am badly short-sighted, -6.5 diopters, with fairly large lenses ( I don't like these tiny 1 inch round spectacle frames - they effectively give you tunnel vision ) so the aberations are quite bad at the corners of my specs. Modern lens design has produced aspherical thin lenses which much more powerful than the old spherical ones and which cut down on the aberations causes by such lenses (spherical aberations) but until somebody start lenses with one layer of one glass and one layer of a different glass (eg crown and flint) then chromatic aberations cannot be resolved. I do not even want to consider what such lenses would cost, aspherical lenses are bad enough.
This sig is a figment of your imagination.
Oh man cant wait to have this done to me... yummy (from http://www.lasikprk.com/VisionPlaceIII/testform3.h tm)
I had RK (Where they actually cut with a knife) almost 10 years ago. My vision was -2.5 and -2. The cost at that time was $2500 for both eyes including enhancements. At the time, they never went "all the way" when they cut. They took 10% off just in case. Then you could go back and they would cut 90% of the remaining 10% and so on. I had 5 operations on one eye, 4 on the other. I was 20/30 and 20/40 after the first surgery, but I wanted more, and at the time, they were willing to do it.
I wore contacts since 7th grade, and was always light-sensitive. I had halo/starbursts before I had RK. Part of the problem is the vast number of different ways to do the procedure. A simple think like making the cuts toward the center of the pupil rather than away caused a 70% increase in the success rate. At the time I had mine done, they made 8 cuts. All of the other clinics that I went to (practicing the "american cut" from center out, rather than the "russian cut" from out to center) wanted to do between 16 and 24. The increased number of cuts allowed better depth control, but gave more starburst patterns.
Side effects: I've noticed a few, but I don't know if I'd attribute it to RK or just getting old. One thing I notice is my eyes will occasionally "fog" up. Usually a bit of rubbing will clear them. It's not bad, more like a bad case of tears.
Statistically, your in good shape, but anything could happen.
Good luck. E-Mail me if you want for more experiences.
Dan
Please pardon the spelling, I'm too lazy to look up "opthamalogy". :)
According to him, you will generally get very good results from it. As others have said here, it does occasionally (very infrequently) foul your vision up terribly, so it is important to do it with a very experienced doctor. Damage done by the laser is permanent -- if your sight is impaired, chances are you won't ever see well again.
One interesting point that I haven't seen anyone else mention is that after the surgery is done, your eye structure becomes very slightly unstable. What this means is that your vision will change on a day-to-day basis... some days are better than others. The effect isn't enough to bother you too much -- he said it was just enough to notice. Even a bad day will still be better than the best days before.
He explained to me that the instability happens because some of the eye's supporting structures are weakened by reshaping them: they are, in essence, cutting out small parts of your eye to cause the remaining muscles to form the eye into a perfect sphere. (Most vision impairments come from an imperfectly-round eye.) Immediately after the surgery, there is an 'oscillating' effect, as the muscles quiver and move around their new point of equilibrium. It does fade, but it never goes away completely. Some people are more affected by this than others.
Two caveats here: I am not a doctor, this is just what a doctor told me. And I had this conversation about two and a half years ago. The technology and approach may be different now. I haven't heard this elsewhere, so I do take this with a grain of salt -- it made enough sense to me, though, that I thought it was worth repeating.
Good luck!
I would personally not even consider having any of the current laser procedures performed on me, if for no other reason than that the long term effects are unknown. A friend had a very negative experience with the PRK technique a year or two ago. The procedure was painful (and expensive), he picked up some additional aberrations, and is now no less dependent on glasses. He did not have the second eye done. There's a lot of useful information at this (rather sceptical) site: http://members.aol.com/eyeknowwhy/
In a few years, even I, risk-averse personality that I am, might consider the surgery. On the other hand...
My glasses have probably saved me from being hit/poked in the eye by sharp edges and flying objects at least once a year for the last ten years. For this reason (and for reduced weight), I make it a point always to get polycarbonate lenses and titanium frames. I also ask for anti-UV coating, which I figure should reduce the normal cumulative damage to my eyes from years of sunlight (in Seattle? Ok, maybe not).
As another poster noted, there are downsides to glasses: dirt, occasional scratches, and image distortion in your peripheral vision. However, the human visual system is really good at compensating for persistent visual distortion so that you don't notice it. Also, if I turn my head just right, the edge distortion causes an interesting prismatic effect. It's kind of neat wearing a portable spectroscope 8-).
At one point I was considering laser eye surgery, but then I realized, "Who am I without my glasses?". I'm so dependant on glasses that they are almost a part of me, and removing a part of me is unthinkable. I even decided against contacts because of this.
To test this theory I spent one whole day without my glasses (it was very hard) and no one recognised me. The old saying is "Clothes Make The Man", but in this case "Glasses Define The Person"
It's free... :-)
If you don't like the cosmetics of glasses (but if you don't, why are you reading "News for Nerds"?), get disposable one-day contact lenses. They are very comfortable, trivial to deal with, and seem to be quite safe.
Time International Magazine has a full length story on it. You might want to take a look at this well reported objective story. Here's the link to the online story:
0 ,3266,31865,00.html
http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/
Cheers!
The Official Steve Ballmer Webpage
Seriously, though, how effective is Valium in calming someone? I've never taken Valium, so I don't know of its exact effects, but I have... let's just say I don't deal with bad situations as well as I once could. I am dying to get this surgery done and see what its like to never have to deal with glasses or contacts again, but just thinking of my cornea being sliced open is getting me rattled. I will get it done anyhow, but I just want to know how effective Valium is in reducing anixety; forewarned is forearmed, or some such nonsense.
Please Please... you obviously are unaware of the possible complication of a PRK or LASIK...
v aluation/
When I read some of the posts here it seems that for them money is the only issue... WRONG!! So before you take any risk, at least read this: (and follow ALL the links!!)
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/specials/eye.series/e
It will explain you everything. Remember, better safe than sorry!
Regards,
Stephan Tual.
If they screw up, you could become BLIND..
I'll stick with my glasses for a few more years..
Con: There's a large chance it'll only work on the chronically unattractive.
You can exercise your eyes and restore your vision. My wife did and got rid of her glasses! I know that it defies conventional ophmatologist FUD (you need specs 'till you die, etc.), but it worked for her.
How? Check out vision freedom.
You dont have to clean your contacts anymore - I use one-day contacts and throw them out each night. It's a lot safer for your eyes - and a lot more convenient than the old style lenses.
Valium is just a real basic depressant. What 3-4 beers can do for your courage/stupidity, valium can do for your sense of well being and peace of mind. The stuff leaves you waaaaaayyyyy open to suggestion (So you're going to use a hammer AND chisel to take my wisdom teeth out?...Hey, thats allllright...just don't harsh my mellow, okay?)
Repressed Linux zealot/okay with advocacy for now.
Did you know that many of those surgery-machines are Windows-controlled?
I had the newer LASIK version of the surgery, where they cut a flap into the epithelial layer of your eye (only a few microns thick), lift it out of the way, and then lase the actual corneal tissue. This is generally more effective than the older PRK surgery, with a significantly faster recovery time, though more expensive. At the center I went to (New England Eye Center at Tufts/NEMC), they charged $1500 per eye for PRK, $2000 per for LASIK.
The actual procedure has been described in many other places in this thread, but here's my $.02:
From the moment they give you the Valium until you are done, it's about a half hour. The majority of the time is just waiting for the Valium to kick in. The actual procedure takes about 10 minutes, of which the majority is prep time. The keratome (the device that makes the incision) is only about a minute, and the laser generally fires for about 10 seconds. At the very end, you start to get a whiff of the tissue burned, which is a little weird. Recovery is nearly instantaneous, I was able to see out of each eye within about a half-hour (though I kept the plastic shield on each eye anyways). NEEC will generally try to do your two eyes about 2 weeks apart, starting with your non-dominant eye first in case they find that a further adjustment is needed. Follow-up appointments are frequent: I went in the day after each surgery, a week after, and then I went after a month, two months, and six months. I have one more follow-up appointment in early February (the surgeries were this past January).
Before, I had a -3.25 prescription (I'm not quite sure what it translates to), and now I have 20/15 vision in both eyes. No noticable side effects like haloing or anything like that - I don't seem to be any more sensitive to glare than I was before. If anything, I'm a hair farsighted now - it takes me a moment to shift focus from far to near (I can shift the other way as fast as ever). It's not a problem so much as something different I had to adjust to.
It wound up costing me about $3000, factoring in the flex savings plan I used and the $1000 I had to come up with out-of pocket. My company lets me advance my total flex contribution at any point during the year, and then takes it out of my paycheck tax-free throughout the year. So I was able to front-load it and get all the money in January, which was nice. I saved about $1000 in taxes that way and lowered the effective price from $4000 to $3000. If your employer has a flex plan, use it by all means. A handful of insurers may pay for it directly, in which case I wish I had worked for one of them when I did the surgery, but most insurers will not pay.
Beats the hell out of glasses, I can certainly say - though I do sometimes have the old "ghost reflex" of pushing the non-existent glasses up on my nose...
The first thing I did after the surgeries were complete was go out and buy a pair of the funkiest Oakley wraparounds I could find. Because I could!
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
I suffer from slight shortsightedness which has stayed pretty stable (-1.5). I did notice the problem developing when I started working in an environment where I was focusing close up most of the time (like monitor distance). It seems many computer workers seem to suffer from myopia.
Now, at the same time, I was getting my pilots license. I noticed that when doing more hours in the plane, my vision got better, and when not flying it deteriorated. I also noticed that practically all of the instructors, regardless of age seemed to be long-sighted.
I spoke to an optician about the possibility of using some corrective lenses for computer/close up work that would cause the eyes to focus at or near infinity, thereby reducing the tendency of the eye muscles to relax into the near-sighted position. I understood from him that this _could_ help prevent some types of short-sightedness, and he also recommended a number of eye exercises.
The other thing that is curious, is that some mornings I get up, and my vision is good enough that I don't notice I haven't put my contacts in.
I think it's time for me to do some more research.
If you want a good doctor, I think that doctor Zimmer in Pittsburgh has a great reputation in this field. Everyone I talked to had used him, and everyone had perfect vision afterwards. It's not cheap - $2000 per eye.
That being said, I'm the only person I know of to have had a side-effect from the surgery. At night, my pupils open wider than average, allowing light through part of the untreated portion of my eye. This causes a little bit of glaring around bright objects at night.
But I have perfect vision in the daytime, and for night driving I have eyedrops that will cause my pupils to constrict, removing the glare (but also making everything appear dimmer). If I had known about this side effect, I may not have had the surgery done. I used to have awesome night vision, and now my night vision is terrible.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 bugs in the code,
fix one bug, compile it again...
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
From what I was told during my last vision check, your eyes don't actually stop growing/changing until you're about 35 or so. If you want to get corrective surgery done with minimal risk (that it'll be changed or get worse later on), you may want to wait a little while (depending on how old you are, heh). There's no harm in waiting a few years - the technology will be better anyway... :) WoP
Um, I thought this was a technicans' forum - just take one of your eyebrow laser projectors and a microcamera on your forehead, link them with radio, put a chip between them to reverse lens charcteristics, and you're done. Bit more useful than games, eh? Now YOU can flame. rws - http://www.in-berlin.de/User/rws/
I know CNN just recently did a week long "study" and had all kinds of good information. Try searching their "Health" archives. It wasn't that long ago, so it should still be there
Wanna know "Why Refractive Surgeons Wear Glasses?" There's a wealth of information at http://members.aol.com/eyeknowwhy/ Quote from the site: "Everybody has an opinion, this is just one."
I, along with my mother, brother, father and spouce have all had eye surgery. I recomend Lasik over PRK because with Lasik both eyes can be done at the same time, and the healing process is 12-24 hours. PRK is more painful and the healing process takes about a week.
I would also recomend, since it's not covered by medical insurance anyway, to go up to Canada because they have been approved significantly ahead of the US and therefor have more experience in performing the procedure.
Discomfort is minimal and short lived. All in all i recomend the procedure for those that are able to afford it - Approx $2K / eye.
Shop around for a doctor who is experienced in the procedure -- I found one that had performed the operation of two friends of mine. Both of them were quite happy. I took the leap and had the procedure. Can't beleive how wonderful it is to wake up and be able to see -- no more fumbling for glasses. The cost varies widely -- there is a web site that is advertising the procedure (no sure of the location) for ~ $700/eye. I found that the going rate in CO was ~$2K/eye. The procedure I had is referred to as lasik -- it involves peeling back the outer layer of the eye, reshaping the lense and then putting the outer layer back over like a bandage. The pain was like an abrasion--when you wear contacts and get a grain of sand under the lense and scratch the eye. I was able to go from the procedure to dinner that night...looked funny since they asked that I wear pin-holed covers over the eye for the first 24 hours. The next morning was the first time every that I had driven a car without glasses...great feeling. My operation was at 4pm and by 8am the next morning the Dr said he could hardly tell where the insicion had been. My vision did change slightly over the course of the first 3 months. I had to use readers (the kind that you get from the drug store) until the eyes finally settled into 20-15 stable status. I really recommend the procedure. The Dr that I went to teaches the procedure to other eye DRs and required that I read about the procedure and watch his training videos on the procedure. The only funny part was the drug that they gave me in the waiting room -- was to make me relax -- it did but that was a strange feeling. The effects of that wore off quickly and as I said I asked my husband to take me out for dinner that night. It's only been 3 years since I had the operation and all is fine with my vision. Ask yourself if it is worth the risk...if your answer was like mine YES then go for it. I felt that since I had worn glasses or lenses for 40 years, what did I have to loose! As it turned out, I lost the glasses!!!
RK will destroy your night vision, because the modifications to the cornea only help you see better when your pupil is small, during the day. At night, your pupil expands beyond the small area in the center of the cornea that was modified with the surgery. This causes the "sharp" image from the center to mix with the "blurry" image from the edges, causing wierd halos and distortion around objects.
This is why RK will keep you out of the armed services, and why no astronomer will even consider RK. Anybody who depends on seeing clearly in the dark should not do it.
If you think your insurance company is going to pay a nickel on it, make sure you get that in writing before the procedure! (Ask the surgeons to do a pre-determination of benefits for your insurance.) It's usually not covered. Also, this has only been in semi-common practice for 15-20 years, so anybody who tells you they know for a fact there are no long-term ramifications is not being honest!
I'm going to LASIK surgery done eventually, probably in Windsor Ontario (my hometown) since one of the leading surgeons happens to operate from there (Dr. Tafour at the Windsor Laser Eye Institute). He was doing LASIK surgery long before the US approved it, the laws on experimental techniques are more conducive to research and development in Canada. Click here if you're interested. There are actually real statistics on this page broken down by type of problem and frequency.
If you're in or near a metropolitan area you will be approached by laser centers offering really good deals on the procedure. The reason this is usually done is that this is a new center, they're trying to establish a large number of operations early on to instill confidence in future customers. I'm not saying this to discourage anybody from accepting the offer. Every doctor practicing LASIK had to start somewhere. I just believe in disclosure.
Decide if you really want the procedure. It's not going to make you an instant sex symbol. My personal reasons are that I can't wear contacts, I don't tear enough. I've got a very wide field of vision, regardless of the size of the glasses frame I've got an annoying field of uncorrected vision around me, this is distracting to me and potentially dangerous.
If you do get laser correction, make sure it's Lasicks (sp?), not RK (radiokeratotomy) or PRK - Lasicks by far is the least intrusive and has the best results. Also, make sure to go to the biggest, most reputable organization.
Thoughts from those that had the surgery and what to watch out for.t m
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/99/1018/6410166a.h
Doctors here in the upper Midwest have been recommending to their patients to have the procedure done in Canada, and actually referring them. The reason is that it is both cheaper and higher tech. Thanks to our FDA for slow approval of new drugs, technology, etc.
is it true that you can't wear contact lenses after the treatment is done? what if you're not corrected to 20/20? can you have the procedure done again? can you have the procedure done if you're an ortho-K patient?
i've been wearing ortho-k contact lenses for some time, they change the shape of my eye (through pressure) and have reduced my perscription. the problem is that if i stop wearing them, my eye becomes "unstable" and my perscription changes from day to day.
is there anyone out there who's had experience with laser treatment after ortho-k?
I recently scheduled myself for the surgery. I know 3 people who have had it done already, and they love it. One person had it done over a year ago and their vision is still perfect. Where I'm going it costs $2500 an eye, but that covers lifetime correction. If my eyes change again, they do the surgery to recorrect my eyes for free.
Reputable clinics will warn you if you're on the edge of feasibility for LASIK. I was recently evaluated for LASIK in Quebec ($999 both eyes, unlimited tuneups) but with a -10D in left eye, they felt my corneas were too thin. I was grateful for that advice but ran screaming from the office when they tried to sell me PRK, which some doctors feel is not advisable for corrections above (below??) -6D. Check out www.staarag.com for information on the ICL (Implantable Contact Lens) which is in stage 3 of an FDA trial here in the US. Should be available by 2002, perhaps earlier in Canada. kjc@jax.org
A while back, Consumer Reports did an article on it.
It seems to work pretty well, at least in the short term, though apparently many LASIC users feel a bit more postoperative pain than those who undergo "traditional" RK (though I'm not letting anyone near my eyes with a scalpel). However, often the procedure works too well, and people get increasingly farsighted as the years pass (more so than the natural tendency toward farsightedness as one ages).
Also, I hope you weren't considering climbing Everest after this procedure; one guy tried and he was blinded after reaching a certain altitude, though his sight returned after he'd hit the top and went back down. Airplanes shouldn't have that problem, seeing as they're pressurized.
It's a tradeoff. My own vision is pretty bad, but I think I'm going to wait this one out until the percentages are better.
This is not quite the same procedure, but you might be interested in the diary kept by Larry Wall Author of Perl Busy Man last year about his cornea transplant.
In some of the later entries, Larry writes that he might consider LASIK in the future, but evidently that hasn't happened so far.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
The most important point I came away with is that although the purpose of the surgery is to free one of glasses/contacts, one will probably still need them after the surgery. This can happen for two reasons.
The first is that not everyone comes out of the procedure with 20/20 vision. In most cases it will be close but there is still a good chance that corrective lenses of a weaker prescription will be required.
The second reason is that after about age 40 (I'm 31 now), glasses would be required for reading and other close-up work. Since I'm very near-sighted now I will never need glasses for reading, so in that respect the situation would actually be worse if I had the surgery.
Other side effects that have been mentioned elsewhere in this discussion were also brought up. The halo effect on point souces of light does not always go away.
Needless to say, I'm still wearing contact lenses.
--Adam :-)
I explored the idea, but I found out that the surgeon relies on a Win9x software when cutting into the eye. What if the system crashes? Would you bet your eyes on Gates?
Being a member of the U.S. AF Reserves I found out about this first hand. The U.S. Military has made it against regulations for ANY member of the armed services (active duty, reserves or gaurd) to get Laser eye surgery or even the Lasek surgeries. You can be discharged for having it. There were two people in my reserve unit that had it done and are now EX-Reservists. So if you want out of the U.S. Military quick, go get laser eye surgery and tell them you had it done! Ah the freedom you get from the military!
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Increases the chances of injury in severe condition expeditions. Several members have had corneas tear apart where the surgery was done. The most publicly famous is the Dallas doctor on 1996 Everest.
Someone who worked for me had it done, and she loves it. She was in her mid-40's when she had it. She said it hurt a bit more than the doctor said it would (big duh), but after a few days her visual acuity was 20-20 and she hasn't worn corrective lenses since. She had the surgery three years ago, when it was new, and hasn't had problems yet. She is also a DBA and stares at a screen all day. FWIW, it cost her about $5K here in Joisey.
Listening to what others have said about the procedure, one suspects the key to success lies in the surgeon performing the procedure. If you decide to do this, I would look for the guy with the best rep and hang the cost.
Good luck in your decision -
Compared to about $2200 in USA (per eye). Warning: about 1:6 need follow ups due to sub-optimal results.
Apparently some new techniques are around the corner that should significantly improve accuracy to the point where 20/20 would be considered an absolute minimum, and much better vision would be the norm. They would also avoid the need for "touch up" operations which only increase the risk involved.
There was a decent article about it a few days ago in USA Today.
with laser correction they correct about 5 or 6 mm or your retina, however in a dark night when you want to use your telescope if you are an astronomer, your eyes can have a 8 or 9mm opening, not corrected on the edges, so you can have problems viewing... (sorry for my bad english)
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
Sorry about the A/C but I'm at work :-) I had my eyes done about 2 years ago when this was first coming out, I had LASIK - note the K, it's not a C. LASIK involves cutting the top of your eye nearly full circle but leaving a small "hinge". Once this is laid open an Eximer laser is used to ablate cells to reshape the eye. You feel NO pain but the dye they use to mark the eye can sting a bit. You ARE awake through the procedure and you can become claustrophobic. When the eye is cut suction is used to hold the tool to your eye and vision will momentarily black out. In my case I was 20:700 20:900 before surgery - the big E on the chart was just a smudge without correction. Years of wearing glasses and many years of wearing contacts had taken their toll. I had extra blood veseels beginning to grow in my eyes due to oxygen starvation and my eyes were haviong trouble staying moist. Glasses made me sick and with vision as bad as mine I had NO peripheral sight, changing lanes in the daytime was "adventerous" to say the least! I had to do something and my doctors all told me this was the best option. I had the surgery done in January nearly two years ago. Insurance will NOT pay for this and deems it "cosmetic" even in cases as severe as mine, it cost me nearly $5K. I paid for it with Flex spending funds but most places will finance you. If your eyes are still changing and you've not had a stable prescription for at least a year or so DON'T have the surgery - your eyes WILL continue to change - this won't stop that. After my surgery I had okay vision but not great - it looked smeared. They found dead cells under my "flaps" from the surgery - they had abl;ated a great deal to correct me and some hadn't gotten flushed away. Once the flaps were relifted and the cells flushed vision improved dramaticly! My vision was correct to 20:20 20:50 but the 20:50 was my dominant eye. The day of the surgery after I'd taken a nap at home and taken Tylenol I awoke able to see the alarm clock for the first time in many years and played computer games for hours that day - it's a quick recovery. I did have many follow up visits and after about 6 months I had an additional correction done ot my right eye. After the correction I still had 20:50 vision and we decided to again wait to see hwo things owuld go. For that second surgery no further cutting had to be done, the flaps were lifted but recovery was a bit more painful. Contrary to some BS you'll hear the flaps DO seal back and scuba diving CAN be done fairly soon after the surgery (ahem). I waited about 9 months the second time and a new cut had to be made for the second "adjustment". This time my vision seems to have corrected down to 20:25 and I believe I'm going to leave it alone now. The adjustments cost me nothg and neither have the follow ups. The only concern is that this time there's a slight edge where the eye is healing that my doctors are watching VERY carefully but it appears to be okay and not getting worse, it's hard to explain but a portion of the cut grew down when it healed. It doesn't effect my vision. I see no more halos now than I ever did before, my night vision appears to be excellent. Some people night vision will be worse because their pupils expand past the point of the flap cut which is past where they ablated to correct the eye. When this happens the vision distorts and night vision is poorer - your doctor can measure your pupil to watch for this! My SO just had an operation herself about 6 days ago. She went with mono-vision, one eye close one eye far due to her eyes never having worked together to begin with. Do NOT let them do this to you unless you are SURE you can handle monovision. She had Brown's syndrom and several other problems that led to crossed eyes and lack of stereo vision that made this easier for her, most people CANNOT handle this! Wear mono glasses a few WEEKS before you try this - trust me. During her healing process her immune system has kicked into high gear, this never happened with her other operations to correct Brown's and whatnot. The result has been a film over her vision and th eneed to goto a stronger steroid drop, it appears to be clearing up. Her distance vision is excellent and her near vision is getting there slowly. Close up work takes the longest to clear and I stil have some trouble reading print on motherboards myself. I do spend about 12hours a day on the computer comfortably and can read books easily. Be aware there ARE other surgeries. One named RK will cut slits in your eye to reshape things. Scarring makes night vision impossible and can prevent the use of contacts later in life. PRK does the same thing but uses a laser to reshape the eye's surface. This too has a longer healing time and I've NOT heard great things about it. LASIX can have soem problems. If the flaps "hinge" gets cut or torn it's a problem. If the cutting tool jams, it's a problem. Infection and debri are also a problem - do NOT rub your eye shortly after the surgery. Sometimes wrinkles form in the flaps, contacts can be used to help hold them down if needed. It's also possible for the eye to move during surgery - hard to stare at the blurry red dot. If they have to they CAN hold the eye still with a retaining ring but this resulted in a slight abrasion on my SO's eye - it healed in a day. Lastly, other than my SO I've know about 5 folks who've had this surgery. ALL of them have done well except one who needs an adjustment in both eyes - he's 20:40 both sides. In my case the doctors were cautios hence the 20:50 I endured for awhile (smile). The surgery doesn't hurt, and my doctor has told me stories of patients swimming for the first time in 20 years - seems they couldn't before for fear of losing the beach! P.S. If anyone has questions I'll try to answer them here - due to the A/C I can't give an E-mail address (sorry!).
Get the book on "The Bates Method for Better Eyesight" at amazon(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805 002413/qid=941204767/sr=1-3/002-1647191- 0407463) or the other GREAT book "Relearning to See" 0 54/qid%3D941204849/002-1647191-0407463).
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556432
I got the Bates first; the other one for its newer info, and I find overall completeness.
It's the book with much more.
My sight went from -3 in both eyes, to 20/22; bitch is the contacts are slowing down the improvement. I do need to drive at night, though...
I've been at it for about 5 months now. Overall, I find the methods VERY effective, give 'em a go.
Keeping an open mind usually brings a couple of effective options to the front.
WiseSon
I have had laser eye surgery recently (LASIK procedure), and I must recommend it completely to anyone who is seriously considered it and has talked to his/her doctor about it.
I am 19 years old and had bad vision in only my right eye (about 20/400). After talking to my eye doctor and considering the different options, we settled on the LASIK procedure for about $2500 including follow-up for a year. The actual procedure went flawlessly, I had no problems with pain or otherwise during or after the actual procedure. After the correction I con now see 20/25 - 20/20 in my right eye...no more contacts or cumbersome glasses again.
While there are some risks involved, they are minimal and the benefits far outweigh the risks. If anyone has more specific questions for someone who has gone through the surgery, please feel free to post them, and I will answer them as completely as I can.
Carlos Noguera
Web Development
Millersville University
So I get into my cab to take me out to the pub the other night, and I just get settled in the back seat, arranging my darts in their cases with my new tips, when the driver pipes up and says: "You know anyone who's had that laser surgery on their eyes?" and I admitted I did not. "Well, I had it Tuesday." I replied with a squeamish "Oh... uhhh.. how was it?" "Well, the right eye is great, but I really cant see so well in the left one. All the lights look like starbursts, and I think I need to have another session to take a little more off." (They try to under-laser the first time, becasue you can can always take a little more off, but you cant really add more on.) I thought this might have been the worst cabbie I have ever been in, but I realized one of my regular drivers didnt even HAVE a left eye, and felt a little better.
Are LCD monitors any better for peoples eyes?
I have an SGI digital LCD and my eyes seem MUCH
better off when staring at it over time than
my old CRT.
da' fly
hey - not too long ago, they came out with a new procedure called Intacs. it's basically a ring that they put on your eye (actually, just under on of the top layers of your eye, i think) which does the same thing as the laser, but has two MAJOR betterments: 1. no halo side-effects, and 2. ABSOLUTELY REVERSIBLE! if it doesn't work for you, you just have them taken back out again, and there's no residual effect!
recently cnn ran an article about the procedure, read it here
they compare all the currently available procedures, but i was really interested in the intacs, and the information i have found since then does back up the stuff on cnn. so, hey - give this a thought!
I used to work for a professional association of refractive (LASER) surgery (www.isrs.org). They have tons of information about laser vision correction (not just LASIK, but RK and PRK too) and while they tend to be a bit bias (hey, this is there living) they have a lot of good slideshows and presentations. Everyone that I know who has had this surgery loved it. Heck, they even do it in the malls now (in D.C. area).
Time had a good article on it October 11, here
Saw a thing on cnn a few days ago where the company that makes the lasers for this surgery have developed software that allows the laser to be more accurate resulting in better than 20/20 vision. They said it should be available in a year.
I had PRK done in the Philipines, and it cost me only 1700 for both eyes, and a reputable doctor who had done well over 1,000 people before me. Seems that it is a good spot to go... my whole family got it done and no problems for any of us. The doc said that he hadn't had any problems, but that he knew one doc who did a Lasik that had problems. I here that it is almost impossible to screw up a PRK, but Lasik is sometimes dangerous, so I went with the PRK treatment and now I've gone from legally blind to 20/20 vision (of course, I'm still young so things may change once I get past 40 or something... but for many years I should be set.) My father also had it done, and he went from legally blind with astigmatism and reading glasses to only driving glasses now. Pretty good.
-- Braeus Sabaco
Member of the Roman Legion
Customer/worker at Phenomenal Internet Solutions
This is SO educational! -- Kintaro Oe
How exactly is this a troll? I found it funny.
Another factor is how bad your eyes now. More severe correction is more problematic. And another is that the machine assumes your eyes are nicely spherical, and that they don't move during the operation. Since everyone's eyes twitch around a little even when you're staring at one spot, there's some speculation that those little twitches play a factor in the variable results. The Time article says a new machine is in the works which uses a radar to track your eyes, compensating both for the twitches and for the small irregularities in your eye. It's a few years out but should be able to correct everyone to 20/10.
Whatever you do, get a doctor with at least 600 procedures under his belt. It takes about that long to work out the kinks. That's not an unrealistic number, there are two doctors in my town who have done a couple thousand.
There are 2 types of Laser surgery that they do, they are:
Lasik: Laser assisted invito keratectomy
PRK: photo refractive keratectomy
Both are similar though from what I've read Lasik is the newer better technique which results in less complications ( HAlo's etc ) and a shorter recovery time.
Lasik is different from PRK in that instead of reshaping the surface of the cornea ( as in PRK ) with a laser, they almost cut the top cornea off, reshape the inside part and then put the flap back in place. Thus the reshaping takes place underneath the surface of the cornea but still has the same effect without some of the problems.
I can mention 2 places where this can be done in Canada ( neither far from the border):
TLC: world experts in the surgery, very highly rated, is a teaching facility as well. Cost: $2100/eye CDN
ICON: good repuatation as well, not as nice a facility as TLC but uses the same laser and performs the same techinque. Cost: 1000/eye CDN
I know people who have had surgeries at both an they have all been happy with the results. All achieved 20/20 or 20/30 vision and have had no adverse side effects. Also both place with perform touch-ups free for life.
For me, I look at it this way. I spend about $400 every 2 years on glasses and about $135/year on contacts... so in 10 - 15 the surgery will have paid for itself and thus is really just a long term investment.
Hope that helps!
There are 2 types of Laser surgery that they do, they are:
Lasik: Laser assisted invito keratectomy
PRK: photo refractive keratectomy
Both are similar though from what I've read Lasik is the newer better technique which results in less complications ( HAlo's etc ) and a shorter recovery time.
Lasik is different from PRK in that instead of reshaping the surface of the cornea ( as in PRK ) with a laser, they almost cut the top cornea off, reshape the inside part and then put the flap back in place. Thus the reshaping takes place underneath the surface of the cornea but still has the same effect without some of the problems.
I can mention 2 places where this can be done in Canada ( neither far from the border):
TLC: world experts in the surgery, very highly rated, is a teaching facility as well. Cost: $2100/eye CDN
ICON: good repuatation as well, not as nice a facility as TLC but uses the same laser and performs the same techinque. Cost: 1000/eye CDN
I know people who have had surgeries at both and they have all been happy with the results. All achieved 20/20 or 20/30 vision and have had no adverse side effects. Also both places perform touch-ups free for life.
For me, I look at it this way. I spend about $400 every 2 years on glasses and about $135/year on contacts... so in 10 - 15 the surgery will have paid for itself and thus is really just a long term investment.
Hope that helps!
Yeah, but then you get red, puffy eyes, and the doc probably won't go any further.
This procedure is for the mathmatically challenged or the flat out stupid. Unless you have severe Eye sight problems, I'd not even contemplate this. Your risk is much higher of getting totally screwed vision then not. Even in the best of circumstances you have lose of edge vision and nightvision blur. You also could be putting yourself it a position to not get a better operation when its developed later on. http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0 ,3266,31865,00.html This article pretty much sums it up.
I finally decided to take the plunge a couple of months ago. I know a lot of people who had wonderfull results, and without my lenses I cannot read the big E on the charts. It sounded perfect.
But, it seems my eyes are STILL changing too much, even at 27 years of age. My astigmatism is growing at an alarming rate, and until it slows, I'm stuck with coke-bottles on (or in) my eyes.
So, if your eyes are changing, just relax and wait a year or two, then try again.
On a side note, any ideas on what would cause an astigmatism to grow a number 2 years in a row? The doctor had no explanaition, but was just relieved that the curvature of my eye was stable.
before you consider this, just remember that a great percentage of people (35%) have died during this procedure, from the laser getting too hot and burning through your eye socket, shattering a nerve in your brain/deep nasal passage. On another note i would like to point out that we here at Pearle Vision in Albany, NY are having a free eye exam and pair of wire frames for 39$. You cant beat that!! Stop in! No death or coma included (#*@
Just ran across an articleo nmsnbc about it yesterday, the article is at http://www.msnbc.com/news/327466.asp Also. there is a place here in Cincinnati that does it and they have a pretty informational web site about LASIK at http://www.midwesteyecenter.com/
My personal feeling on my LASIK procedure:
If there were anything in my life I could go back and undo, this would be it.
There have been a number of very informative posts on this topic, so rather than repeating general details I'll give my specifics:
My LASIK was performed at TLC Manhattan by Dr. Speaker.
Before:
OD Sphere -11.75, Cyl -1.50
OS Sphere -12.00, Cyl -1.50
(yes, that's twelve, not a typo)
Bilateral LASIK January 25 1999 (age 20)
Three months postop:
OD Sphere plano, Cyl -0.50
OS Sphere plano, Cyl -1.00
Second procedure June 30 1999
Four months postop:
OD Sphere plano, Cyl -0.50
OS Sphere plano, Cyl -0.25 to -0.75 still fluctuating
I have had extensive problems with healing due to dry eyes, and my vision was cloudy for months. More importantly, though, is my night vision -- rather, the lack thereof. I have worse than Snellen 20/100 vision at night or in any low light environment.
Night vision problems occur because your entire cornea is not corrected -- only a central region. When your pupil is dilated, more of the cornea is engaged -- and light from the uncorrected and transition zones is allowed to pass. This light drowns out the corrected image, creating blurry and washed out images. Even in medium lighting, the effect is apparent. Ever see double out of one eye? If I cover one eye and look at a bright, sharp object (for example, the screwdriver on my shelf beside me right now), I can see three images of it, slightly offset from each other. If I lower the light at bit more, more images start to appear, until it's completely blurry with dozens of blurry and/or distorted copies.
Now, granted -- I started out with a huge prescription, and certainly there are a lot of success stories out there. In fact, I'd highly recommend the procedure to someone who can currently see better than 20/100 or so without glasses -- since the 'uncorrected' light you're left with post-op will be sufficiently focused that these problems won't be an issue. But for someone with my prescription -- I'm frankly shocked that Dr Speaker even allowed me to go ahead with the procedure.
I think LASIK is a very exciting technology, and probably will be as common as orthodontry in the near (10 years) future. However, with the current ablation zones in use, it is not appropriate for the correction of extreme myopia.
--
By about age 50, your eyes will have lost accommodation, so you will need reading glasses any way -- and since you're likely to live to age 80, you'll be using reading glasses half your adult life. Even with reading glasses, it's hard to read fine print on labels, etc. But as a 63-year old with severe myopia, I can pop off my glasses and read fine print just fine -- I'm glad there wasn't laser surgery available when I was younger to tempt me into making what I would now find was a poor decision.
# per eye basis) but I think it can probably get
# cheaper than that depending on where you go.
When it comes to my eyes, I don't think I want to go with the lowest bidder. It may work for our government and military, but I have to live with these baby-blues. Forget cost and go with quality. Thoroughly research your doctors and visit with several before committing your sight to their laser scalpal...
It's definitely worth it. Imagine never having to remove your contacts while drunk again. Or putting both contacts in the same eye when you wake up drunk. ;)
With Lasik, your vision fluctuates for a couple months afterwards, but Lasik can correct more drastically than RK. You see haloes at night because your iris opens up enough for light to pass through the scarred cornea. It's a lot like the effect you'd pay lots of $$$ for in a good graphics card. (But it's real.)
The link above takes you to a web page showing the before and after topology of my eye, for both procedures. It also relates the experience step-by-step -- the Lasik was more nerve-racking than I expected.- -------
-----------------------------------------------
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words
Heya-
I can't add much to what others have said, but here's my experience.
I had my eyes done this past June. Everything went absolutely perfectly, it's awesome. I went to Laski-Vision in Vancouver Canada. Purely for cost. It cost me 1500$ for both eyes there, and the business is quite reputable. The only reason I went 7 hours north was to save a butt load of money. I also researched things quite a bit before going, and was refered to this place through another friend who went there.
The procedure itself was pretty cool. After they peel the flap back, while the laser is firing I can see the blurs slowly change as the cornea surface was shaped. There was one odd thing that they didn't warn me about but makes sense- the distinct odor of burning flesh. Kinda sounds freaky, but just adds to the fun in my opinion. Overall the operation was painless and really cool to experience, especially for a nerd.
Recovery is pretty simple, but make sure to LISTEN TO THEM! Put in the drops just as prescribed, don't skimp. It's easy and very important. With the lubricating drops, I used mine for a bit over three months. Some people use them for six months or more, but that can be normal. The important thing is to use them too much, rather than not enough.
Anyways, good luck! It'll change your life...
Jason
I had Radial Keratotomy and I can see better, (my eyes were too bad to correct to 20/20), but now I can 't look through a microscope or telescope without seeing the shadows of the incinsions. It's not worth it. Wish I could go back.
âoeIn theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." â Albert Einstein
You may want to take a look at www.vab.com (or www.lasikdocshop.com) to visit some of websites in this directory.
If you're a pilot, or want to learn to fly a plane, don't get this surgery. It is explicitly not approved for pilots. The halos and small distortions that can be caused by this surgery can have a serious negative effect on your ability to visually judge distances and altitudes when near the ground (like when you're landing, for example). These problems are worse at night. Judgement of height above ground when landing is entirely visual, and critical to a safe landing. At night, this judgment is almost entirely from the spacing and relative motion of the runway lights -- if you're not seeing these clearly and undistorded, you and your passengers going to have an unpleasant experience.
Caveat: I am not a Doctor. I can only tell you about my experiences.
I had LASIK last January and went from extremely nearsighted and astigmatic (right -6.75 sph -2.25 cyl, left -8.25 sph -2.25 cyl) to having a very mild prescription (right -0.50 sph -1.25 cyl, left plano -0.50 cyl). I'm planning on going for a touchup on the right eye soon.
I had the surgery in Colombia (yeah, the South American country) by Virgilio Galvis. He's one of the pioneers of the procedure and is very experienced. Eye surgeons in the US will send their screwups down to him to get them fixed. The setup down there was very professional and they did a very good job. I've had two friends here in Boston who had LASIK done locally (at Mass. Eye and Ear) and they both had complications. I had none. Galvis has a very good record.
A guy named Steve Friedman in Hawaii runs groups down to Colombia every couple of months, so you don't need to speak Spanish. He has a web site at http://www.lasik-eyes.com that explains the whole deal. I think the surgery cost me about $4000 including air fare and hotel.
Complete recovery from the procedure took a few weeks. I had to wear plus lenses for a while (reading glasses bought at a drug store) since the surgery overcorrects (I became somewhat farsighted) and allows your eyes to relax into their final form.
The results are not perfect: I do get haloes at night. Because of the strength of my previous prescription, Galvis could only make the correction so wide (not quite 5 mm). Since the pupil will widen to about 7 mm when it's dark, the light path will include uncorrected parts of the cornea and so there are haloes. This also cuts down on the contrast of your vision at night. The result isn't too bad. I can still see well and the haloes are about the same as dirty/scratched glasses (which I had to deal with anyway).
I am very glad that I had LASIK. I can now go swimming without worrying where to put my glasses. I no longer have to put up with dirty lenses, fogging in cold weather, strange optical effects (prisms, curved edges, smaller images), etc. I no longer have to look for the glasses after I fall asleep reading. And I can now wear cool looking sunglasses if I want!
Some advice:
1. Get the LASIK procedure, not PRK (and don't even think about RK!!!). PRK is more destructive, more painful and has a longer recovery time.
2. Have the surgery done outside of the US. LASIK here in the US is generally done "off label" using lasers designed for PRK since that is all the FDA has approved. Outside the US they will use a laser specifically designed for LASIK that does a better job. Also, the surgeons with the most experience are outside the US. The ones here are still mostly getting up to speed.
3. Do your homework first. Find out about the surgeon, the procedure, your eyes, etc. before doing anything else. Learn some basic optics and terminology so that you can understand the tradeoffs and issues involved.
Not everyone has good results with LASIK. You can find horror stories on the net. If you're going to get it done, however, make sure that the deck is stacked in your favor by finding a very experienced surgeon who has good equipment and a good record. I think I made a good choice.
Send me e-mail if you have questions.
Darren Leigh in Cambridge, MA
e-mail address is my last name at merl.com
Had Lasik eye surgery done 6 weeks ago. Vision is now 20/20 was a -8 diopter. Practically painless. Fast. Only cost $2800 total for both eyes. Definitely worth it.
My 2 brothers-in-law and my father-in-law had the procedure done about 2 years ago. The cost, in Boston, was about $1,800 per eye. Most medical insurance does NOT cover laser corrective surgery, or eyeglasses for that matter. Usually one eye is done first, then a few weeks later the other eye is done. They had great results. If it wasn't so expensive, I'd like to do the procedure too. I am very myopic; corrective eye surgery really is for people with especially poor vision. There is another procedure that I've seen advertised and is FDA approved that doesn't use a laser at all. Instead, the shape of the cornia is altered with a special ring surgically inserted behind it. The ring can be removed easily and updated as your vision changes with age. This procedure is cheaper and presumably safer, but I have no info about it. There may be an immune reaction to the ring, however, much like some people, like me, have a reaction to long wear contact lenses.
You're being unreasonable. Somebody *will* be the poor bastard who has the worst results of everyone seen by the doctor over the course of a year, but expecting to be that person is silly. Use standard statistical methods. The doctor's results will probably follow something close to a bell curve, the best reasonable results are probably between 1 and 2 sigma out, or around the 90th to 95th percentile. A few people *will* get better results, by definition, but they will be rare. On the other side, the worst reasonable results are around 1 and 2 sigma out in the other direction. A few people *will* have worst results, by definition, but they will be rare. Since your vision is so critical, plan on being in the 10th percentile and then be pleasantly surprised... but don't count on being better than those poor results.
now there is NO WAY i'd consider any form of eye surgery, esp. after i've read all the comments.
1) as many have said, the military won't let you join if you've had it, and kicks you out if you get it. i guess cause it blows away your night vision.
2) if you are involved in the sciences, or ever plan to work in a field demending precision eyesight, DON'T DO IT. many have posted that they can no longer see through microscopes or telescopes clearly! they see reflections of the scars, wishing they could reverse the process. but they can't!
i was half heartedly considering this, cuz several of my "friends" thought i'd be better off w/o glasses, but there is NO WAY i'd consider it now.
I drive at night a lot, i do detailed examinations of small objects through microscopes, and enjoy astronomy as a hobby.
damn butchers! how many geeks have been irreversibly crippled by this? do they warn young people (at least in the US) about military service/reserves issues? scientists, astromomers?
This surgery is a joke!
Don't forget to ask surgeon what laser will be used. I was told that VISX has the best. Ask how old it is and if it has had any updates.
A friend of mine who plays the stock market told me of visx. He stated that they are the only laser eye machine maker that currently has the FDA approval. If you are going to take the dive and get the surgery, definately go with a visx.
Pinhole glasses....I just purchased a cheap pair just for fun and was amazed at the clarity in vision. Here's one link for your info: Pinhole Glasses
I have done a little research on this...from what I can tell, it's in about the same place as heart bypass surgery was about 20-25 years ago--usually it helps, but when it doesent, um...oops? Personally I plan on waiting for the next gen systems, that will both 1) build a 3D image of the eyeball to ensure that the corrections are proper (current systems just assume the eye is perfectly spherical with distortion equal to the power of the problem) and 2) automatically correct for any eye movement while you are 'under the knife', so to speak. No word on the timeframe for acceptance of the next gen systems, but it's mainly a matter of adopting other technologies to the operating room.
My aunt, who is nearing 60 years of age, recently underwent laser vision correction. The process was short, and nearly immediate. She had worn glasses all her life, and now she has nearly 20/20 vision. The thing with laser correction is that it isn't for everyone. My aunt went to see several doctors to get opinions on the procedure, and if it was for her. This surgery, being ultimately elective surgery, means you need to consult with doctors to make sure it is for you.
My aunt, who is nearing 60 years of age, recently underwent laser vision correction. The process was short, and nearly immediate. She had worn glasses all her life, and now she has nearly 20/20 vision.
The thing with laser correction is that it isn't for everyone. My aunt went to see several doctors to get opinions on the procedure, and if it was for her. This surgery, being ultimately elective surgery, means you need to consult with doctors to make sure it is for you.
CNN did a good feature on eye problems and procedures in August.
CNN Eye Series
When I learned about the Bates method for better vision (eye exercises and new habits of using your eyes), I threw away my glasses, and now I can see -- not perfect -- but very well. On some days, better than I had with glasses previously. I know of many people who have experienced an eye-doctor confirmed improvement in vision (reduced prescriptions.) For more details, see the web page of the International Society for the Enhancement of Eyesight.
Paid $1000, plus a $250 fee to use the laser itself, for one eye. (BS surcharge, but its industry standard...) Another $100 for the eyedrop meds. Its a very unsettling procedure, not fun at all especially if your claustrophobic. It took about 15 minutes of time being actually strapped into the chair/headset. An hour later I had decent vision. After a few days I noticed a very slight haloing when looking at lights, but given that I'd barely have been able to se the light prior to the surgery I think the tradeoff was worth it. In short, if you have the cash, or your insurance will cover it, and your blind as a bat, go for it. I was 20/400 went to 20/40. I suggest only getting one eye done per year though. You dont want to find out your the "statistical anomally" that goes blind weeks later after having it done on both eyes. Glasses=No water polo, Blind=no fun at all. (yeah yeah I'm a vision snob, tell me you'd rather be blind (all else equal)
There are several types of surgeries today, from inserting rods, burning, shaping, plastic inserted, and the most common peeling the cornea, burning, and replacing. It tends to cost thousands of dollars. The thing to remember is that this is a very new science, only a few years old. They are coming out with new techniques every day (the most common one (the one with peeling) works the best and has the lowest "failure" rate. Something new undoubtedly will come along in a year or so, and there are no studies on long term effects yet. I'm personally waiting for those studies, just to be safe. Also, new techniques are being developed (as mentioned in the TIME article) to increase sight. Currently, they burn your eye in a set oval, even on all sides. This is like wearing a contact, and works fine for most people. However, new tech is coming out that lets them scan your eye, and burn a shape specific to your eye, which can theoretically get you better than 30/20 vision. There are new technologies coming out, and I'd wait until one has stabalized. It's not like a computer, you can't buy a new one if something goes wrong.
While all interesting, from a geek point of view, still make me shudder when I think about it - all of them, they are CUTTING into your eye - there is a reason why on nearly every horror or sci-fi movie made something happens with someone's eye(s) - because the eyes are one of the most vunerable spots on our bodies - as well as being the most needed parts of our bodies...
Now, I understand that the procedures (well, maybe not RK or PRK) are painless - and are probably about as exciting as going to the dentist for a cleaning - but given the fact that they aren't reversable (with exception of intac), and they cost a pretty penny to boot, and you only have one set of eyes...
For what comes down to a mainly cosmetic decision, or a practicality decision (meaning wanting it because of wanting to do away with the hassles of glasses and contacts) - for something that can possibly really mess you up for other geeky interests (microscopes/telescopes) and night vision being shot due to haloing (which happens to me, with my contacts - probably dirty), I just can't see the worth.
If you don't figure you will pursue any of the microscope/telescope stuff, or that the night vision problems are a concern, then maybe that is ok.
I just can't see (no pun intended) why someone would want to gamble with their eyes...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I am 58 and I was 20/400 in both eyes, with astigmatism, and I've been wearing glasses for nearly 50 years. Now I am 20/25 or slighly less in the left eye and about 20/25 or slightly more in the right. I have no problems with night vision. I wear blue-blocker sun glasses and I noticed that they improve my eyesight to 20/20 or better! As a programmer, I spend 8 hrs per day programming and then go home to my Linux system and put in another hour, with no problems. I swapped being very near-sighted but requiring glasses for both near and far seeing, to being far-sighted and using reading glasses for programming and reading - a more than equitable trade. For me I consider it a miracle of modern science for which I am thankful. Those who refuse to play with fire for fear of being burned will just have to enjoy the oxcart while the autos zoom by.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
As far as the actual surgery went, it was quite painless but very weird. They give their patients a couple of Valium to relax them, first, then eyedrops to numb the eyes. Then, on into the surgery room, where you lay down under the laser machine.
About the only time my vision went away was when they did the slicing with the microkeratome, and luckily, they warned me first. :) They didn't warn me, however, that the thing makes a sound like a cross between a dentist's drill and a buzzsaw. That freaked me out a little. Once the flap is made, things look a little blurry, but not frighteningly so. When they go to move the flap over, however it's pretty bizarre -- like someone is crumpling a piece of plastic wrap over your eye. When they lift the flap out, the distortion goes away, and they tell you to watch the light (the laser, of course). The laser makes a really loud TAK TAK TAK TAK sound, but I couldn't feel anything.
After the surgery (10 minutes, tops) they let me go home with a couple of sleeping pills and told me to go right to sleep. They gave me these hard plastic shields about 3 in in diameter to tape over the eye area before sleeping.
At this time, everything was pretty much uniformly blurry, but again, not enough to make me think that I'd never see again or anything.
The only discomfort I had was right after surgery when my right eye (coincidentally, the worst eye before the surgery) was burning like there was a lot of smoke in it (even with the eye closed). However, the sleeping pills finally got me to sleep.
When I woke up the next morning with the plastic eye shields on, I was disappointed because things still looked a bit blurry. Turns out it was the shields, because after a cup of coffee, I noticed WHAMMO! It was like I was wearing my contacts but -- I wasn't. Very very cool.
I still feel a little like there's something in my eye, but my night vision doesn't seem to have been affected. There is some haloing effect around headlights, but it's about equivalent to what I'd see while wearing contacts.
My vision before was 4/4.5 diopters or about 20/400. My vision now is 20/15 in one eye and 20/20 in the other. Both eyes together even out to an average of 20/15, according to the doctors. Yep, it was a lot of money. However, with my prescription, glasses cost a minimum of $150 a pair, and that's getting them at Wal Mart. Plus, contacts (I wore disposable/extended wear) at about 2 - 300 bucks a year, plus cleaning supplies, etc. etc. So, the surgery won't really pay for itself for 20 years, I guess, but it's not really about the cost: it's more about not being depended on external lenses any more.
So why can't I have the surgery? Because I fly airplanes and I would be ineligible to fly for at least 6 months.
So, although I'd love the surgery, I'll stick with contacts for now.
- Drew
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
Executive Summary:
Sorry if this rambles a bit, but I wanted to get it all out and submit it before the story scrolls off the end of the main slashdot page. I also hope this gets moderated up because I happen to know a lot about this. My stepdad is an eye surgeon (his specialty is the retina though, not the cornea). I've done university projects on laser eye surgery and had it done to my own eyes. I am not a doctor, and may be wrong about some of this information because it has been a while since I researched it, but I'm pretty sure it's mostly right. You can find a good chunk of this information on the web if you look hard enough.
Ok, having said that, here's what I know.
You have two options when it comes to laser surgery: LASIK and PRK (Photo Refractive Keratectomy). I know more about PRK because that is what I had done to me. I also know that my eye-surgeon stepdad recommended PRK over Lasik though I don't know if this is a general recommendation or just for my case.
Lasik involves cutting a flap in the cornea, peeling the flap back, shaping the cells with a laser, and lowering the flap back into place. Lasik can deal with a wider degree of myopia than PRK and has a faster recovery time, however there is a small amount of scarring on the eye from the healing. One flaw with Lasik is that it leaves a weak point in the eye -- the flap can come lose later, but I think this takes a lot of pressure and once the eye has fully healed this isn't an issue.
PRK does things by simply using a laser to shave sub-cellular layers off the eye. The laser used is a pulsed UV laser that basically blasts apart molecules letting it do it without heat.
There are different types of PRK machines. The differences include the width of the laser beam used, and the apeture control mechanism. The older machines have a mechanical apeture that progressively widens (at least when flattening the lens). These machines produce extremely minute step-like structures on the eye as they change size. The newer machines use different apeture techniques to make the flattening smoother.
When I talked to my stepdad about laser surgery a couple of years ago he was hesitant because there wasn't enough clinical data on long term results. About this time two years ago I asked him again and this time he recommended it. One of his colleagues is acknowledged as a leader in the field, and has all the newest eqipment.
I went to this doctor and they told me what was involved in having my eyes done. Because of my previous prescription (astigmatic with -8.5 and -9 eyes) and because of my unusually large pupils I could only have it done with a very specialized machine. Apparently there are only three of these machines in North America.
Anyhow, they suggested a treatment, I agreed, my stepdad thought it was a good idea so I went for it. They quoted me a price of $2000 Canadian ($1300 US) per eye to have the surgery done. They recommended both eyes at once so that is what I had done.
The day of the surgery I had my mother drive me to Montreal where the surgery was done. I waited in the waiting room for an hour or so, and then a nurse put drops in my eyes. The drops used are the same ones they use when you have pressure tests done on your eyes. Basically all they do is anesthatize the surface of the eyeball without affecting it in any other way. About 5 minutes later the drops had taken effect and they brought me in.
Surgery consisted of looking up at a red dot while they blasted the cornea away. While the surgical laser was on, my eye saw flashes of blue light everywhere while the laser pulsed. I guess this was the UV light losing energy and becoming visible inside my eye? Anyhow, the other thing that I noticed (which they didn't warn me about), was that I could faintly smell the burning flesh of my eye as they operated. All-in-all surgery was a pretty nervous experience (which is why they offered some strong relaxants beforehand). They do essentially nothing to immobilize your eye as they work, and trust you to keep looking at that red dot. But the good thing is it was over quickly. I think the surgery took less than two minutes in the end.
So after surgery my mom drove me home. My eyes were very irritated by the whole process and keeping them open was something I wasn't up to. One eye was irritated enough that tears were pouring out of it for at least half an hour.
The recovery weeks (2) were pretty rough. My vision was pretty similar to my glasses-less vision before the operation (when I could keep my eyes open) but it couldn't be improved by glasses or anything else. My eyes also really itched, and sometimes really burned. The tissue was healing, but that isn't a pleasant thing. And another problem was boredom. When you can't see anything at all, and you're used to seeing, life is boring! I couldn't use a computer, could hardly watch TV, couldn't read, etc. But soon enough my corneas healed.
After that the eyes took another six months or so to adjust. During this time my vision changed slowly from bad to great. Now apparently I've got slightly better than 20/20 vision... during the day.
The one problem with my eye surgery was the effect on my night vision. My eyes now have a change in their curve, which means that at night I see halos. Sometimes they're worse than other times, but they're always there. When I look at a LED in an otherwise black room I see the LED surrounded by a soft and fairly large halo. I'm sometimes bothered by this at night when driving: stoplights and car's lights are haloed. But most of the time I don't notice it (it's still there though).
The best part of this whole process, where I noticed the biggest difference was waking up. I'm sure many of you with bad eyes know the experience of waking up, and sticking your head up to your alarm clock to see the time. It was such a huge thrill to be able to wake up, open my eyes, and see the time with no effort. Being able to see the time on the clock on waking up is something everyone with good eyesight (these days me included) takes for granted. And it was such a great feeling to wake up and be able to see.
Now I might be wrong about certain things, but ask me. If you want to know more about my experiences I can tell you anything. If you have questions I can't answer I can ask my stepdad.
Before getting costly, dangerous surgery, look into natural vision improvement. It was developed in the 20's by an eye-doctor named William Bates. It is harmless and free and has helped me to a certain degree (like .5 diopters in the first month and 1.0 diopter since). Many report excellent results, complete reversals, and even above average sight (20/15 or 20/10). There are a wealth of books and resources on the subject. h tm
Here is a FAQ and an excellent site:
http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~hanwen/eyefaq.
And here are some book reviews on the subject:
http://members.xoom.com/reedlaw/eye.html
Chris B's LASIK Page is an excellent resource on the lasik procedure, and includes info on the procedure itself as well as what to expect as a patient. Enjoy!
Here is a FAQ and an excellent site:
sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~hanwen/e yefaq.htm
And here are some book reviews on the subject:
members.xoom.com/reedlaw/eye.html
but it's totally wrong!?
I had my eyes done with PRK (Photoreactive Kerotectomy). Before, I was a -8.75 and -9,
with about 1 diopter astigmatism. Now, I am about 0 and -1.5, so I see well enough to not need glasses for driving (20/25 in one eye, 20/35 in the other). I normally wear glasses to correct the remaining astigmatism and nearsightednesss,
but can do without.
But I was also one of the unfortunates who had serious side effects from my surgery. My night vision is terrible, with huge halos around any light sources. After many years, the problem has not gone away. I've also lost a little bit of contrast in my vision.
Although they tried to correct my astigmatism, they were not very successful at that.
Overall, I am OK with the results, but it has definitely involved tradeoffs, and once it's done, there is no going back.
If I were to do it again, I would not pick PRK, but rather LASIK. LASIK involves a risky step of cutting a "flap" on the cornea so the laser can be applied to the inner layers of the cornea, rather than the surface as is done for PRK.
But LASIK generally results in better vision, and
the recovery time is much faster. It was,
unfortunately, not available when I had my eyes done.
If you go for LASIK, understand that there are definitely risks. Also, Although many don't need glasses afterwards, some do.
My housemate had the operation done about 9 months ago. Now she sees halos or stars around lights at night, so now she avoids driving at night. Also, I've read that there are high altitude (over 14,000ft or more - don't remember the exact number and I don't think there has been a lot of research on it) problems as well - so if you're into sky diving or mountaineering (things like Everest, or even Himalayas or Patagonias), you might want to do some serious thinking. Also, I wonder if there have been problems with scuba-divers.
2 years post surgery I am seeing 20/20 and 20/30 in my right and left eye, respectively. I was extremely myopic (-6.0 and -9.5 diopters) and had an astigmatism in both eyes. I had the surgery performed in San Bernidino, CA by a group known as The Laser Center. They have centers all over the U.S. and a research headquarters in Vancouver, BC. Visit them at http://www.lzr.com
I highly recommend this group, and the LASIK procedure. It is a little pricey ($2000/eye when I had it done), but in my opinion it's well worth it. The entire surgery took all of 15 minutes, and 3 hours later I began seeing more clearly. I could drive the next day. Do yourself a favor and look further into this - it offers an amazing opportunity to live without corrective lenses.
(My father also had a LASIK procedure performed for his far-sightedness. Being 52 years old his results aren't quite as fantastic as mine - his far-sightedness also proved harder to correct - but he's still happy).
I looked into PK and LASIK for years, and decided PK was too destructive and LASIK had too high of a complication rate for me to be comfortable with. 15 months ago I got to have a Keravision ring surgery done on me. The procedure involved a very minute incision in each cornea. They then slide 2 1/3 ring implants 60% of the way down your cornea. My vision was 20/20 the next day in one eye and 20/15 in the other. The main reason I did this surgery and not LASIK or PK was that it is completely reversible. If I want some new exciting technology in 10 years, then put me under, remove the rings, and poof...im back to what i was before. Also if my vision changes (i just turned 25) for any reason, they can remove the rings and insert different rings. The rings correct the vision by pushing areas of the cornea out bulging it) which flattens the center area of the cornea. Overall I am very happy with the procedure and heartily recommend it to anyone. i believe it is about CA$2500 for both eyes (canadian) up here now.
What does this have to do with computers anyways ?
Right now I'm blessed with 20/20 uncorrected, but at 24 yrs, that probably won't be the case much longer. I just hope they've perfected the surgery (as if they haven't already) by the time I need contacts! A co-worker of mine got the LASIK done a couple months ago..he looked really bloodshot for a week or so, but has had not problems since. Jeff
I am employed as a stagehand, and I recently worked a convention of opthalmic surgeons. Here's what I learned, in a nutshell: DON'T LET ANYONE DO ANY SURGERY ON YOUR EYES IF THEY'RE CURRENTLY FUNCTIONING AS DESIGNED.
This is a newer form of treatment which avoids permanent changes to the eye i.e. it is reversible. Its currently available only for mild myopia(which is why I can't use it). I'm waiting for them build this stuff for severe myopia 'cos I'm too nervous about the laser stuff. Checkout www.keravision.com
I am employed as a stagehand, and I recently worked a convention of opthalmic surgeons. Here's what I learned, in a nutshell: DON'T LET ANYONE DO ANY SURGERY ON YOUR EYES IF THEY'RE CURRENTLY FUNCTIONING AS DESIGNED. The longer version: 5 years ago, Radial Keratonomy was the greatest thing. At this convention, LASIK was the hot technique. One of the main selling points for LASIK is, "Doesn't fuck up your patients' eyes nearly as badly as RK did." This from the same folks who were pushing RK so hard before. Also, there was a guy selling a really cool 3-D eyeball imaging device called the Orbscan. His main selling point was showing slides of completed procedures, and saying, "This doctor did LASIK without Orbscan. Using conventional imaging technology, it looks like he did an OK job, but the patient was complaining, so he did an Orbscan. On the Orbscan image, we can see how badly he fucked up this person's eye." The doctors push LASIK because it's an elective - read CASH - procedure, and they make more money on that than they do on necessary procedures that are paid through insurance. They have a direct FINANCIAL interest inconvincing you that LASIK is safer than it really is. DON'T DO IT.
And don't forget the original internet resource for vision improvement, the International Society for the Enhancement of Eyesight web site and mailing list.
Correction lasts 5-10 years (at most) before reverting to their pre-operative state, according to medical literature I studied for a class recently. As others have pointed out, there can also be negative side effects for some patients, primarily halos around bright lights at night. Any doctors here care to comment? - Jeremy Traub
LASIK is really in the experimental stage. If you don't mind being a guinea pig then go for it. Otherwise I would wait.
I work for a company that makes the equipment to measure the cornea. Our machine is the only one that can measure both the front and back of the cornea (giving you thickness as well). Less than a quarter of the doctors have our machine. Thus most haven't a clue about the posterior cornea and full pachymetry. They are effectively flying blind.
I was at the AAO (American Academy of Ophthalmology) this week, doctors admit all LASIK surgeries cause some loss of night vision. For some it's very little, others it reduces you to almost blindness at night.
Remember that LASIK is primarily a cosmetic surgery. Currently it doesn't do any better than glasses, it just makes you not have to wear them.
For the best outcomes make sure your surgeon is using an ORBSCAN.
Research has shown the cornea can suffer permanent injury following laser surgery in respect of altered immunological function, abnormal cell morphology and (blood) circulatory problems. Not enough is known about these long-term problems since PRK et al are still relatively new treatments. If you don't have access to medical literature, you might consider registering with www.Medscape.com and searching for corneal damage and PRK in the MEDLINE database. Latent corneal damage can take years to become symptomatic, i.e. painful or visually disturbing, and is very hard to treat -- specifically, there is no treatment that artificially thickens the cornea to replace the PRK-ablated endothelial tissue. Before deciding on laser eyesight-correction, you might want to check out the case histories of laser-treated patients whose eyesight has deteriorated years after the surgery. In some cases, patients with superb initial results (correction to 20/20 or better) have quite suddenly begun suffering serious eyesight deterioration more than 5 years after their operations.
Case history:
Orthokeratomy, where they use corrective lenses to reshape your lenses. After reshaping you only need to wear 'retainers' at night, and there isn't the risk of pointing sharp/damaging things into your eyes.
I've also heard that surgical steel is better than lasers, but I dunno which is currently top-dog, I do know that laser's were getting better press.
-- Ender, Duke of URL
Hi, my dad is an ophtalmologist (as if that gives me any credibility) who refuses to perform or recommend Lasik, RK, or any of the other corrective eye surgeries. A couple of thoughts:
First, I think it's somewhat irresponsible of Slashdot to be hosting this discussion; we're nerds here, not docs.
Second, the risks are pretty high. Less than 40% of recipients are corrected to 20/20 vision, and even those who get full 20/20 visual acuity often have problems with ghost images, starburst, and halos. Just as megahertz is a poor way to judge machine speed, visual acuity fails to capture the important details of vision.
I'd hold off for a few more years. I wear contacts, and it kind of sucks, but you've only got the one pair of eyes.
Sumner
-- rage, rage against the dying of the light
I had the process two years ago. I'm a very happy camper. I've published my experiences to the net at http://www.overbyte.com/eyes/
I remember either reading an article or talking to a biologist friend two years ago and hearing that eye surgeries (RK/Lasik/etc.) damage ones ability to distinguish color contrasts (especially important if you spend a lot of time working with microscopes). Has anyone else heard of this/able to verify?
--Josh
0schrier_j@spcvxa.spc.edu/schrier@qtp.ufl.edu
I agree: girls with glasses just look better.
That's "circulatory problems" meaning corneal vascularisation aka growth of intra-corneal blood vessels (healthy cornea lacks blood vessels). And (oops) PRK ablates epithelial/stromal tissue.
Hey guys,
Never posted before and didn't want to take out the time to make an account. My father is an opthalmologist and is very much anti-laser correction. Basically because they have to slice your cornea and also because of the failure rate being pretty high (I think that 1 in 50 post had it about right.) People ask him all the time and he only does after lecturing people for hours about why they shouldn't do it, and is they still say they want... well, whatever. He's from the old school, though, and he still doesn't think contact lense are a good idea, although he has lightened up on that over the years. Just wanted to share that with you. This year a lot of opthalmologists have taken the risk due to business pressure, but he says last year most of the doctors performing surgery hadn't had it done on themselves and were still wearing glasses. Something to think about. But do your research, whichever way you decide to go.
- Mujtaba Ali
Tests to try to enhance human vision to 20/10, to better than perfect, will begin within a few months. And if they go well, doctors could be offering the procedure routinely within a year. http://www.msnbc.com/news/327466.asp
My cousin's girlfriend just went to a place in Canada and got her vision corrected by the laser surgery. He said to check out www.lexingtonlaservision.com and to email him (aaronn@microcrafts.com) if you want to ask him/her any questions.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
Actually, most of those problems are associated with old-style RK (which makes much larger incisions in the eye) rather than current laser surgeries, which do experience these problems but at a frequency of maybe 1% when performed by experienced doctors. It is legal to fly a private plane after surgery, and it was recently allowed by revised Navy pilot standards too- night landings on aircraft carriers and all. I'd expect the FAA and the Air Force to follow suit relatively soon as the procedures continue to improve. Myself, I'm content to wait a few years until it's perfected.
I am not a doctor, but I researched this very extensively in the past year, and ended up being rejected for the procedure.
The reason for this was that I have rather large pupils (8.5mm dilated)that dilate past the areas where most of the lasers currently cut the cornea (7mm). So, all of the reputable surgeons I talked to said for me to wait until the software was reconfigured for the large pupil people of the world.
Now, the reason that a lot of people get the 'starring' and 'haze' at night, is that their pupils dilate past the 7mm area the lasers cut in, and let light bounce off a large 'ablation' (or stair-step of tissue).
The ablations are why most good doctors will not let people with large dilation pupils get LASIK. The stair-stepping of the tissue in the cuts is fine enough for most people, but they leave an 'edge' for the light to catch on, if your pupils are large.
Both of the major laser companies are currently working on this are trying to get the ablations down in general (better vision for everyone) and out further for those of us who have large pupils.
As others have stated, the benefits are great, but beware of any potential job or life activity that could take you into the realm of sudden pressure changes, as it appears the surgery MAY result in erratic sight behaviour.
Other advice:
- Get a list of _failures_ from the doctor performing... not just great successes, they like to stack the deck, but usually will supply people who have had 'non-successful' procedures.
-Always make sure you can get the success percentage of the doctor performing, not just the lab in general, people will try and group a really great doctor with a newbie and try and use the inital doctor's rates with the newbie as well.
- Don't try and save a few bucks on someone who's done less than a thousand procedures.
-Get someone with experience, who updates his software and machines frequently and who will supply every concieveable fact to you before you decide.
-Make sure that they're using the most recent machines and software for those machines, the machines get software updates about every 6 to 9 months. Make sure they are paying thier fees, so that the equipment is getting serviced every 10-20 single eye procedures. You want a very stable machine.
My final advice is: Wait. I was all gung-ho to have this done, and I'm waiting until they get the 20/20 success rate industry wide to 99%, currently it seems to waver in the 92-94% range. Re-research this every 9 months or so and see if any major progress has been made. I mean I wish I could swim without dorky goggles, but at the expense of my future sight, I'm not risking anything.
--foolish
I had the LASIK procedure done on both of my eyes last Thursday (1999.10.28). There are already several fairly detailed replies on this topic, and I am probably a few days too late to be of much interest, but here is my experience.
I did quite a bit of initial research and talking to friends, co-workers, and my eye doctor before deciding to have LASIK done. I suggest anyone considering the procedure do the same.
The cost was $4500 for both eyes. I elected to have both eyes done on the same day, which is commonplace but against the official recomendations (I forget the body of Government involved). They suggest you wait 3 months, but that would be highly unusual. I believe over 90% of people have both eyes done on the same day.
I went to a very reputable laser center. However, I choose to have my normal eye doctor do all pre-operative and post-operative care. This is (assuming there is a relationship between your eye doctor and the laser center) known as co-management. Obviously I can not compare my experience directly to a "non co-managed" experience, but I am very happy with this. It turns out that most good laser surgeons do not like to do this type of pre and post op. care (thorough eye exams, testing, etc.). Therefore, it is my understanding that if you do your pre and post op. care at the laser center, you will generally be working with newcomers and technicians, not seasoned eye doctors. I probably spent 8 hours in pre-op in the month leading up to the surgery, which sounds excessive, but it well worth the investment when you consider the nature of the surgury.
Anyhow, that is probably enough babbling. What I may think interesting is the exact sequence of events I experienced at the center:
(0) Starting 1 week before the surgery I start taking rewetting drops 4 times a day, a think lubricating eye drop 1 time a day, and an antibiotic eye drop 2 times a day.
(1) 0:00. Arrive, check in, sign consent form, take 5mg of Valium
(2) 0:05. The laser eye coordinator from my normal eye doctor's office shows up as expected. As far as I could tell I was the only one with an eye care professional in my company, and the other patients quickly started asking her questions about related issues.
(3) 0:10. Go to second waiting room. This room has about 20 people, most of which have eye shields and hair covers on (they have already had the procedure and are waiting, see below).
(3.5) during this time the valium kicks in. 5mg did not affect me much, but I could tell it was doing something.
(4) 0:50. Go to small room with three chairs, a sink, and an employee of the center. I am fitted with hair cover. Then my eyes are rinsed with saline and my face near my eyes are cleaned. I then got anisthetic eye drops (which stung a fair amount). For the next 10 to 20 minutes I sat with my eyes closed (mostly) and got about 30 eye drops (a mix of anisthetic and lubricants).
(5) 1:10. Walk into the laser room. Lay down on bed under cool looking laser equiptment.
(6) Right eye (I think) is taped shut. Left eyelids are propped open with metal device. Several eye drops. There is a little red dot blinking straight up.
(7) Metal device (with a hole you can see through) set on eye. This asserts some pressure, then vision goes black. Apparantly this device causes an effect like glaucoma.
(8) Corneal flap is cut. This was a little disconcerting. You could feel the microkeratome glide over the eye and feel some pressure. There was also a high pitched (dentist drill like) sound.
(9) Metal device is removed. Sight comes back. The doctor peels back the corneal flap which makes sight go very blurry.
(10) Told to stare at a flashing red dot, but not follow it if it moves. Clicking sounds begin. I feel that my eyes are moving a little, and the doctor mentions it once, so I do my best to keep looking straight. Clicking stops.
(11) Corneal flap is returned to position. I can see! But double (or triple) images. Doctor smoothes out corneal flap, which makes the vision come in reasonably well. Bandage contact placed on eye. Eye taped.
(13) Repeat for second eye. I feel that I held this one straighter.
(14) 1:25. Leave laser room (total time about 15 minutes). Clear eye shields placed on head. Back to the waiting room.
(14.5) At this point I can tell my vision is better, but I can not read the various signs around, so I am a little worried that the correction was not optimal.
(15) 1:55. Go to eye doctor office. A different doctor takes a look at my eyes with a lighted microscope device. He says everything is cool.
(16) 2:00. Leave the building and get a ride home.
(17) Get home. Take sleeping pill provided by the laser center. Take a nap (4 hours)
(18) Wake up. Sight is much better than immediately after surgery. Use several eye drops (anti-inflamatory, anti-biotic, and lubricant).
(19) Eat dinner. Chat with a few friends that stopped by. Take second sleeping pill provided from laser center. Lay in bed with eyes shut and talk to friend for a while and eventually go back to sleep.
OK, probably more detail than you wanted. When I got up the next morning, my sight was very good (after I took off the plastic shield anyhow). I went to my normal eye doctor, and everything looked good. I was supposedly between 20/20 and 20/25 at that point. [BTW, my initial eyesite was about 20/400 with -4.75 and -3.50 diopters of near sightedness with trace astigmatism.]
My eyes felt a little funny the first night and following day, but there was never any pain. I am going back to my normal eye doctor in a few days for a 1 week followup. I believe there will also be a 1 month followup.
So far, I do not think I will need to have any enhancements, as I can see well. Time will tell. My eyes do not look quite normal yet. There is one blood "spot" and several pink areas in the whites of my eyes from blood. Apparantly, most contact lense wearers bleed when the corneal flap is cut because the veins grow in close to the eye. This happened to the 3 people that went before me according to my guest. The pink color and blood spot are supposed to fade in a manner of weeks.
NOTE: I stopped wearing my contacts about 1 month before the surgery. Typically 72 hours is suggested, but I was advised by my eye doctor longer is better because contacts soften the surface of the eye and cause other minor effects. These should not matter in the surgery, but why take chances?
I was given a video of the surgery, which is really cool. I had seen one before I went, which I advise.
I have noticed some halos at night, although it is very difficult for me to tell if this is different then before the surgery. It is certainly not severe, and my night vision otherwise is very good (seems better then with contacts).
Anyhow, I hope this account is useful to someone. I would be glad to answer questions based on my experience. Obviously I am pretty happy so far. I found both glasses and contacts to be a pain, and my eyesite was bad enough that I could not cope without correction.
In general, I would say not to hurry, especially if you do not have a compelling reason to get the surgery. There is risk, and I was nervous for a few days leading up to the surgery. Over time the procedure will get cheaper and better. And until this procedure becomes routine (it is still not official approved [it is considered an "off label" use of the laser, where PRK is approved {but inferior in general}] and has only been done to a few hundred thousand people in the U.S.), you should do your homework and find out about the procedure and doctor. (That last sentance sucked - sorry!).
- Mike
well it seems outraegeous, but it's true... I had mine done last year by a Dr. Peter Kansas and associates out of Albany NY... The cost was about 5K complete. My eyesight had stabilized for about 5 years, and I hadn't worn contacts for around 8 months, which made me a prime candidate.
:)
The first day they did my left eye, (I opted for LASIK vs. RK) they cut the lens of the eye, insert a laser and burn the inside to the proper contour. The procedure took about 10 minutes, and was fairly simple on my part ("Just keep looking at the flashing red light") It was strange as I saw this bright circle of light with a pulsating red middle blur then get clearer and clearer... They reconnected the lens, bandaged the eye and shipped me off home... The next day the bandage came off and Voila 20/40 vision... A week later they did the right eye (partially to avoid cross infection between the two eyes) That one went about the same way... I didn't even have to take the Valium they prescribed to calm the patient down for either operation... The next day the bandage came off and I could see with 20/30 in the left 20/40 in the right... At my 6 week checkup the final verdict 20/20 in my left and 20/25 in the right.. When I told them that I did sys administration he chuckled that my borderline nearsitedness would actually help reduce eye strain usually found in 20/20 users... I wholeheartedly reccommend it.
I went from BIG OL cokebottle glasses years of contacts and not being able to watch TV while I fall asleep, swimming without worries. A whole bunch of things I now almost take for granted.
The Only Drawback I found..
I used to wake up and tell my wife how gorgeous she was in the morning..... Now I REALLY know what she looks like 1st thing in the morning
Good Luck!
-- Life: Hate the Game... Love the cereal
One thing to be aware of.. most optometrists are highly skeptical of this method, despite overwhelming evidence and patient testimonials, and refuse to believe that it works. I ended up going to a different optometrist from my regular one because when my prescription changed I needed new glasses right away to be able to drive to work and I didn't want to erase my progress by trying to use the old ones. The new optometrist refused to believe the old numbers I told him and I was glad that I came in without any glasses or contacts (I had my g/f drive me) because he said something about a school of thought among optometrists that even if a patient's prescription is too strong, they don't like to go back to a weaker one.. Forget that!
--
Jake