Slashdot Mirror

The equivelent of an X rated move (I assume this is what 18 rated means since you mention porn) is a AO rated game not an M rated game. See ESRB ratings. This discussion is about M rated games.

Also, it is interesting to read exactly what the ratings mean!
Ratings Uncovered

Yes, you did. The figure gets mentioned once, at the very top, which "Steve" directly copied. "Steve" didn't write jack, Andrew Serros, the author the article, wrote that. Well, Steve added "Filefront uncovers the real trend and includes quotes from ESRB President Patricia Vance."

Based on the statistics given by the ESRB website (which are last year's, I can't find current), that 18% figure is by title. Unfortunately, I can't locate any updated statistics, so those figures are mostly meaningless.

There's already a game ratings system....

"We didn't closely review these," Dave Dormire, superintendent of the Jefferson City Correctional Center, told The Kansas City Star. "We were told these games had more like cartoon violence."

Game Name: "Hitman: Contracts"
ESRB Rating: Mature (17+) for Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Drugs
Sounds coming from prison: "That !@#* warden Dormire is gonna get !$*#$!"

Also note that the ESRB does explicitly label Cartoon Violence as opposed to Violence.

I am amazed at how warning labels are ignored, even when they are simple and relevant! I bet I could put a label on something that says using it will kill you, and people would still buy it... Oh wait, they call that Tobacco!

Since noticing over the last two weeks or so the growing outcry of "But what about the CHILDREN", I've started thinking about the ESRB rating systems and about the games I have that are M rated (I was actually shocked to figure out that Halo & Halo2 were both M, I presumed they were both T. Good thing I'm far past the point of needing or dispensing parental guidance.) and what possibly an AO game could be.

Note: Inclusion on the list below doesn't necc indicate I own the game.
The Guy Game - M.
BloodRayne & BR2 - M.
MaxPayne & MP2 - M.
The Suffering - M.
Mafia - M.
Leisure Suit Larry - M.

What does it take to get an AO? Rape? Actual spritesex? Perhaps everything on the "Naughty List"?

The article mentions that the government put an 'R' rating on Manhunt. Why? The ESRB ratings, which every video game publisher adheres to, provide strict outlines on what content deserves what rating. It also defines not one, but TWO ratings that kids should not purchase - 'M - Mature (17+)' and 'AO - Adult Only (18+)'. Why not just require that any Mature- or Adult-rated games require ID?

Most major retailers (Wal-Mart and EB Games for example) have this policy in place (whether the slack-jawed register biscuits at Wal-Mart follow it or not I'm not sure) - I know when I worked at EB, that was one of the first things I was told - don't sell GTA to anyone under 18 unless a parent is there - and if the parent is there, make sure that they are aware what is in the game ('Is it really that bad?' 'Well, it's as bad as you want to be. If you want to follow traffic laws, then you can. If you want to pick up hookers, have sex to regain your health, and then beat them to death with a baseball bat, take your money back, and run over their corpse, you can do that too.').

Now, I'll agree that not all M-rated games are that closely watched - Halo 1 & 2 for example are mature, but aren't that shocking. Manhunt, GTA, etc., however, are watched pretty well. I'll admit, I've sold a few games to people under 18, usually after working 9 hours at my other job then coming to EB to work a 5 hour shift (or after waking up a half hour before my shift starts and coming to work asleep) - but the reality is, this is already pretty well enforced at any good EB. Just make it law that the retailers follow the ESRB warnings, put a sensible penalty for non-compliance (the same as letting a kid buy an R-Rated movie), and off you go.

The government requiring retailers to follow ratings: A+. The government re-rating games: D-. Hooray Ontario.

Okay, I'll bite. Go to the ESRB's website and do an advanced search on games rated "Early Childhood" or "Everyone." There's 396 titles for the Playstation 2 and 197 titles for the XBox. (There are 217 for the GameCube) Surely those aren't all educational and/or "girl" games. If there are certain descriptors you don't like, you can even exclude those from the search.

Okay, I'll bite. Go to the ESRB's website and do an advanced search on games rated "Early Childhood" or "Everyone." There's 396 titles for the Playstation 2 and 197 titles for the XBox. (There are 217 for the GameCube) Surely those aren't all educational and/or "girl" games. If there are certain descriptors you don't like, you can even exclude those from the search.

Ummm, since the ESRB was established in 1994.

Games are rated-- it sounds like you want games rated eC or E. You can see full descriptions of the ratings on the ESRB site.

-m

"This seems to indicate that, once again, people made a judgement on a game without actually playing it."
Well, the ESRB don't play the games they rate, either. From their FAQ;

To get a game certified with an ESRB rating, publishers fill out a detailed questionnaire explaining exactly what's in the game, and submit it to ESRB along with actual videotaped footage of the game, showing the most extreme content and an accurate representation of the context and product as a whole. Working independently, three trained raters then view the game footage and recommend the rating and content descriptors they believe are most appropriate. ESRB then compares the raters' recommendations to make sure that there's consensus. Usually, the raters agree and their recommendation becomes final. However, when the raters recommend different ratings, additional raters may be requested to review the game in order to reach broader consensus. Once consensus on a rating and content descriptors is reached, ESRB issues an official rating certificate to the game's publisher.

When the game is ready for release to the public, publishers send copies of the final product to the ESRB. The game packaging is reviewed to make sure the ratings are displayed in accordance with ESRB standards. Additionally, ESRB's in-house game experts randomly play the final games to verify that all the information provided during the rating process was accurate and complete.

Hopefully, it is not that harmful, but I suspect that gleeful killing of innocents may not be a good thing to practice in a fantasy setting. Can you state unequivically that your mental state is unaffected by it?

No, I can't, but I also can't say that my "mental state" is uneffected by other forms of media as well: movies, television, books, etc. The difference is that I am mature enough to handle the difference between fantasy and reality. Parenting is about knowing what your child has access to and helping them to know that difference. Part of knowing what they have access to is paying attention to the various rating systems for video games, movies, and television shows (none yet for books, but that's what librarians are for: recommending quality reading material for your children).

...I don't play GTA and I don't let my kids play rated M games.

That's a good philosophy. I wouldn't let my kids play M-rated games, either, if I had kids. What I find offensive about parents who try to decry video games based on content is that they act like the rating system isn't even there. Apparently rating a game "Mature - 17+" means that it's not the parents' fault if their 6-year-old is playing it. Parents don't complain about R rated movies, because they know that the movies are only for mature audiences, who can handle the themes without emulating them.

Perhaps it's time for the ESRB to change their rating scheme to match that of the movies, since many parents don't seem to get it. Parents apparently already know what G, PG, PG-13, R, and NC-17 stand for and mean, but they are clueless about EC, E, T, M, and AO, which mean exactly the same things. It's a 1:1 translation.

It's not the punching, it's the killing. You may say he doesn't kill the bad guys, but that's how it looks to my kid.

If your kid thinks people disappear when they die, talk to your kid. And you didn't answer the question: What did you expect this Spider-Man game to be about? Why did you let a label do the thinking for you? If you're so concerned about violence, why did you ignore the fact that the descriptor that went along with the rating on the Spider-Man game indicated that it contained violence?

Ah, but to trigger your remote control I have to notice Falwell; ergo, it doesn't meet the spec.

What are you doing that you're watching the TV but don't notice whats on it? Or do you mean to say that you're leaving your child to watch the TV unsupervised, and want a box to do the parenting for you?

I guess while I'm out picking up an M rated game for my Kid, I should probably grab him a carton of smokes, some really nasty porn and some Jack Daniels.
Really, if your a parent, and you have a kid that plays games, you may want to take an interest in the rating system, and use it as a guideline, the same way you would for movies.
Entertainment Rating Board

Stickers are irrelivant. Read the game's rating on the lower left-hand side of the box. They're rated just like movies are, and both games are rated 'M'. And just like an 'R' movie, people under 17 aren't allowed to buy them. It is very clear and obvious, and the retailer is supposed to enforce the rating. And I don't think a little kid has $50 bucks for a game. Or even $20 for a budget game. The problem is parents not doing their job, then looking to blame someone else for their negligence.

For more information about the video game rating system, go to esrb.org

A friend of mine pointed out recently that you can actually use the ESRB Rating Search Engine to show all the games that contain blood, gore, and violence. She went on to comment that she was sure it wasn't their intention, but that they've provided a great way to find good games. :)

Look man, your argument that games rated M for "Mature" is invalid. The label specifically states that the content is intended for persons 17 years of age. If you wanted to expand on your own theme... it is ok to sell alcohol to people 16 and older in America, because hey-- that's how it is in Germany. Of course maturity isn't always defined by age, but because we have no way of determining a person's maturity, we have to default back to age in deciding what to sell to whom.

As far as school vouchers go, you said that as if it were a bad thing. I don't think there should be any stipulations if a parent doesn't want their kid taught at a particular school for whatever reason. A parent should have that right. However, arguing that the reason behind vouchers is propoganda, I think you should take a second look. We have people being miseducated and failing, and because of poor grades vouchers have become a popular idea.

Oh btw, shopkeepers and rating systems are in no way trying to negotiate communistic influence over our youth. It is simply a delegation of authority that is provided in the same way the "we card" function works. -Crimey References: ESRB M for mature

Look man, your argument that games rated M for "Mature" is invalid. The label specifically states that the content is intended for persons 17 years of age. If you wanted to expand on your own theme... it is ok to sell alcohol to people 16 and older in America, because hey-- that's how it is in Germany. Of course maturity isn't always defined by age, but because we have no way of determining a person's maturity, we have to default back to age in deciding what to sell to whom.

As far as school vouchers go, you said that as if it were a bad thing. I don't think there should be any stipulations if a parent doesn't want their kid taught at a particular school for whatever reason. A parent should have that right. However, arguing that the reason behind vouchers is propoganda, I think you should take a second look. We have people being miseducated and failing, and because of poor grades vouchers have become a popular idea.

Oh btw, shopkeepers and rating systems are in no way trying to negotiate communistic influence over our youth. It is simply a delegation of authority that is provided in the same way the "we card" function works. -Crimey References: ESRB M for mature

From the ESRB:

ESRB Helps Parents Choose the Right Games for Their Families

The ESRB rating system is designed to give parents the information they need to evaluate a computer or video game before making a purchasing decision. The ratings are not meant to recommend which games consumers should buy or rent or to serve as the only basis for choosing a product. Rather, parents should use the ESRB ratings in conjunction with their own tastes and standards and their individual knowledge about what's best for their kids.

And here:

ESRB is responsible for enforcement of its rating system. We monitor compliance and investigate violations of ESRB's Rules and Regulations. Where appropriate, we impose penalties against companies that violate ESRB labeling, marketing, or product submission rules.

Although the ESRB does not have the authority to enforce the ratings at the retail level, we do work closely with retailers and game centers to encourage them to display ratings information and not sell or rent certain product to minors. In fact, many retailers have signed up for ESRB's Commitment to Parents program in which they pledge to use their best efforts not to rent or sell M-rated games to children under 17 without parental consent. For a list of retailers that participate in the Commitment to Parents program click here.

From the ESRB:

ESRB Helps Parents Choose the Right Games for Their Families

The ESRB rating system is designed to give parents the information they need to evaluate a computer or video game before making a purchasing decision. The ratings are not meant to recommend which games consumers should buy or rent or to serve as the only basis for choosing a product. Rather, parents should use the ESRB ratings in conjunction with their own tastes and standards and their individual knowledge about what's best for their kids.

And here:

ESRB is responsible for enforcement of its rating system. We monitor compliance and investigate violations of ESRB's Rules and Regulations. Where appropriate, we impose penalties against companies that violate ESRB labeling, marketing, or product submission rules.

Although the ESRB does not have the authority to enforce the ratings at the retail level, we do work closely with retailers and game centers to encourage them to display ratings information and not sell or rent certain product to minors. In fact, many retailers have signed up for ESRB's Commitment to Parents program in which they pledge to use their best efforts not to rent or sell M-rated games to children under 17 without parental consent. For a list of retailers that participate in the Commitment to Parents program click here.

From the ESRB:

ESRB Helps Parents Choose the Right Games for Their Families

The ESRB rating system is designed to give parents the information they need to evaluate a computer or video game before making a purchasing decision. The ratings are not meant to recommend which games consumers should buy or rent or to serve as the only basis for choosing a product. Rather, parents should use the ESRB ratings in conjunction with their own tastes and standards and their individual knowledge about what's best for their kids.

And here:

ESRB is responsible for enforcement of its rating system. We monitor compliance and investigate violations of ESRB's Rules and Regulations. Where appropriate, we impose penalties against companies that violate ESRB labeling, marketing, or product submission rules.

Although the ESRB does not have the authority to enforce the ratings at the retail level, we do work closely with retailers and game centers to encourage them to display ratings information and not sell or rent certain product to minors. In fact, many retailers have signed up for ESRB's Commitment to Parents program in which they pledge to use their best efforts not to rent or sell M-rated games to children under 17 without parental consent. For a list of retailers that participate in the Commitment to Parents program click here.

It's kind of sad in a way, but what can I do? If I don't sell the games, the store goes out of business and I don't earn money.

I'm also going to assume that someone is going to bring up the ESRB rating system. Parents don't notice that (I'm serious). I've been asked why games aren't rated with the same system as movies (an idea which appeals to me), and "What does this 'M' mean?" - the system doesn't seem to be intuitive enough for people to understand at a glance (reinforcing my belief that most people are mostly stupid).

There's no video game rating similar to NC-17...

What about Adults Only? Content suitable only for adults. May include graphic depictions of sex and/or violence. Not intended for persons under the age of 18.

The way I see it, the M ESRB rating is closer to an R movie rating since both recommend being 17 or older.

You just don't see either the NC-17 or Ao rating that often since some stores don't carry either.

You seem to have contently forgotten the ESRB that is already in place to deal with this.

So I'm not sure what you mean by such phrases as:

...but the video game industry, on the whole, has been pretty unresponsive to this issue.

I'd rather the video game industry had taken this up themselves and done something reasonable and responsible and respectable, but as they have consistently failed to acknowledge the issue...

I'm sure the industry tries to do as much as they can to try and make their products marketable to as large a segment of the population as possible but when a game gets stamped with the Mature rating, I would say that pretty much sends a clear signal to the publisher that the content in that game is for an adult audience.

And just to show you that I think they are doing a pretty fair job without the need for the government to come in and start some sort of slippery slope here:

Grand Theft Auto 3 -- Mature (17+)

Grand Theft Auto Vice City -- Mature (17+)

Age of Empires -- Teen

Neverwinter Nights -- Teen

Quake III Arena -- Mature (17+)

SimCity 4 -- Everyone

Freelancer -- Teen

Postal 2 -- Mature (17+)

Lilo and Stitch Pinball -- Everyone

I've played all of those games at one point or another and think that the rateings are pretty fair. Oh, and by the way. I'm a 30 something year old college grad who has been playing video games since the original Pong. Not all of us are "indignant high school age geeks."

games these days should be rated.

Or does that already exist somewhere?

http://www.esrb.org/power_search.asp?type=game

Select "Adults Only" and then search. You should get 15 titles, none of which sound familiar. Maybe Hastings (as mentioned above) has them on the top shelf with the Penthouse entertainment.

Really? www.esrb.org works just fine for me in the latest mozilla nightly build on Linux.

What sort of problem in specific are you seeing? What version of mozilla are you running?

I've had no luck with the ESRB's web page in Mozilla. It redirects me to a page named update that doesn't really exist. I'm sure there are others, but this one I really need access to. Fortunately, Opera works fine.

Not when it's OUR brand of violence!
(which is now considered ART, BTW)

I wonder how many parents will complain about these games...
I mean killing drug dealers is ok by parents,
and killing terrorists is even better.

But if you were to say, kill a cop,
or fly a plane near a building...that's a whole different story!

Something tells me parents will not "Boo!" when these games start coming free
in cereal boxes and their kids start collecting military trading cards and wearing camo to school...

I wonder what the rating will be...
"Mom? When do you think I can get some trigger time with some real warm bodies?
Not 'till you're 18, son!"

The strange thing about this whole thing is that the game industry has already instituted a ratings system called the ESRB. The real problem seems to be that many retailers aren't enforcing this system. In theory it should work just like the movie ratings system: if your kid sees a movie that they aren't old enough for, you blame the theater, not the film studio.

Like the ESRB ratings that are already on all video game titles?

It's interesting that while retailers have voluntarially tried to restrict sales of "violent" games to minors, developers are not required to have their games rated by organizations like the ESRB. So, what is to happen? Require every game software title to be rated by the ESRB? What about independent game developers? Last I heard, having your game rated by the ESRB isn't cheap.

Food is FORCED to list its indgediants (I know, a SHOCKING violation of the rights slashdoters hold dear). Hope to see BC reverse its decision on this as well.

Rating make it straightforward for folks to take a look at a game and have an idea of where it falls in the violance catagory.

I think the problem is that most parents choose to ignore the ratings that already exist, and I doubt that the situation would be improved by government mandated ratings.

Doesn't the US already have a voluntary game rating board?

Don't let anyone like Katz demonize you for not allowing your children to watch whatever they want whenever they want to.

That's not what Katz is saying. Katz is in no way demonizing good parents. He's talking about theater owners, ushers, etc. who TRY to be substitute parents by making "moral" decisions regarding what a child can or cannot see.
And I agree with Katz. Theater owners shouldn't be taking away a parent's right to decide what children see.
Additionally, they shouldn't be treating MPAA recommendations as law, enforcing them blindly. The recommendations are just that. They are guidelines for parents to decide what children can see. This is a good idea with poor implementation. I don't want to know what somebody else thought of the moral fiber of a movie; I would much prefer facts, such as the RSAC's implementation of a ratings system for software and internet content. It has a rating from 0 to 4 in each of the following categories: Violence, Nudity, Sex, and Language. If somebody sings "Uncle Fucker" it would indicate language. It doesn't just slap on the same rating someting gets if it has pervasive nudity and sexual themes.
In contrast the ESRB has a system that simply says "T" for Teen or "M" for Mature, etc. which is just as bad as the MPAA. While I'm rambling i may as well also complai about the RIAA's rating system for music: a "Parental Advisory" sticker of no parental advisory sticker. That's all-no explanation.
People should be free to make their own moral judgements based on facts, not fed somebody else's moral code and forced to accept it. People need to learn that morals are not universal, and they can't seek to have their moral judgements applied to everyone. People deserve to know more that just opinions: they deserve facts.