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Grand Theft Auto Ban To Be Decided By Courts
Wingchild writes "Haitian civil rights groups in Florida have filed a lawsuit with the circuit court in Palm Beach County, which Rockstar Games has asked to be moved up to a federal court for a final decision on whether or not their game has to be banned from stores. This move happens as the court of media opinion begins weighing in on the subject (facts irrelevant, of course), a fact which Slashdot Games noted a scant two days ago."
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Parents should just do their job.
AC
People are getting to dang PC if they can't seperate the goings on within a game to what's actually going on in real life. This does need to be allowed to stay in stores if for nothing else then for free speech. If a particular retailer doesn't want to sell it than so be it, but an all out ban on a game being sold is stupid.
Yet if all of the game's anti-Haitian material was put into a book, people would call it free speech...
True story.
If this issue should be decided anywhere, it should be in the courts.
The thing is this, there is no issue to be decided.
Ergo, this whole thing is just a stupid thing to do. Computer games...free speech...second amendment...it's all getting hazy...
Slashdot: when news breaks, we give you the pieces.
Why the heck would they want to ban GTA while I see worse things every day when I go to my local CompUSA. I mean Duke Nukem 3d had women flashing or pole dancing in it, and I still see that on the shelf when I go to CompUSA. In GTA3, at most, with women, you see a van shaking back and forth. What is this world coming to ?
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I was thinking about selling my copies of GTA on ebay. However, if it's going to be banned, it's soon going to be worth a mint.
Maybe I should wait, huh?
AC
I just have to wonder, especially since I did't read the whole linkage, but isn't it up to the users to use some sort of brainwork for themselves???
I think that very often in the US you just HAVE to exclude ANY possibility to act stupid, and in ADVANCE at that. So, no cats in the microwave and McCoffee is hot and so on. So if some game makes you act stupid, as someone claims, is it the game that is stupid or the player?
-Is the meaning of life vanity, or is vanity the meaning of life?
http://saveie6.com/
Yet another group sticking its nose into the private business of others, on the basis of "hate speech" censorship. Simply disgusting and contrary to free speech rights.
Is when the virtual courts get petitions from virtual citizens about how the real sport of boxing is too violent and should be banned...
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// Only kidding ... sort of... :p but still, they need to get a life... it's a friggin game. Honestly, the game is about killing people in general, not certain groups. Killing a black guy (or whatever) in a game != racism. Racism is not giving a black guy an equal opportunity for jobs or education.
Write a game where the goal is offing "Haitian" litigators.....
Even just now I was thinking "Damn, maybe I should go buy it just in case..."
HAHA... As usual, this kind of publicity will just sell more copies.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
Those dirty Hatians should get a life.
Oops! I talked bad about Hatians. Are they going to come chant at me from my front door?
You can be utterly certain that if some company came out with a Windows game where you had to sneak your character into houses and beat to a bloody pulp the families of anyone using Linux, then /. geeks would be up in arms complaining louder than anyone else.
Hypocrisy
"Kill the litigators."
I don't recall reading anything in the U.S. Constitution saying "The right of the people to not be offended shall not be infringed."
If you don't like the game, DON'T BUY IT!!! Nobody's pointing a gun at you to force you to buy.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
The only sad thing is the amount of money that needs to be spent on lawyers on cases like these. The plaintifs should be paying those lawyer fees and court costs when this is all said and done.
For reference, we should remember that some of these idiots think GTA is worse than child molestation.
OT:
Tasteless T-shirt of the week:
Front-- Michael Jackson did not have sex with those kids.
Back-- He made love to them.
(Sorry... mods please be nice.)
Ac
When did parents stop taking responsibility for the games that their children play, the cd's that their children listen to, and the movies that their children watch? In my opinion, a game is free speech, and should therefore be protected under the First Amendment.
To quote the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
My blog
There are no details in one article, and the Times' just talks around the facts and about SEC statements.
Anyone who is famillar with the florida courts can understand why Rockstar Games wants the lawsuit moved to the federal system.
This case illustrates a deeper problem. The very nature of the legal system lets irate idiots inflict a death of a thousand cuts. There is no barrier to be overcome to bring a lawsuit. No penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit. Just the sound of society grinding down, under the weight of too many lawyers.
By banning a game loved by gamers everywhere (that isn't about Haitians), a Haitian group will only direct more negative attention to Haitians than the game ever would have.
got my copy of GTA:VC from Palm Beach. I live an hour or so away. Its funny that people would make such a fuss about it, as fun as it is to blow up the police car and pick up hookers, its only a game. Parents should teach their children respect for humans and that such games are nothing to be expected of in real life. Its rating implies already it shouldn't be given to young kids, not to mention, doesn't this just start cutting down what America is founded on, freedom? I can understand control to a level, but I do believe the level is met when we have a group that rates games. Mom's need to read the box before buying the game for little johny, not just because he wants it.
I've left to find myself. If you happen to see me, please, keep me there until I return.
and release it on the net.
*I used to be quite irreverent and ignorant. I am probably much smarter now. I seem to realize this every 45 days or so.
Last time I checked, the game was rated M. That's what? Like 17 and older? Maybe if people actually paid attention to warning labels, we wouldn't have a problem.
At least the gaming industry's labels have several appropriate categories (unlike the RIAA [EXPLICIT LYRICS] that appears on practically every album...)
True story.
What's wrong with our cakes as they are?
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
to paraphrase a George Carlin joke...
.22 rifle [which isn't even in the game, it's a .223 carbine!] shooting at cars that gets a kickass game on the verge of being banned.
Why is it games only tell people to snipe people. Just today I found a few more interesting ways to kill people in vice city...
1. Get a fast car, hit a motorcycle head on then run over the rider in one motion
2. Position yourself so cop cars chasing you will hit other cops [funny to see this happen]
3. Do a "punch/shotgun" combo [by getting upclose].
You don't see people imitating this in real life. No it's some jackass with a
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
This has happened before. I remember reading in an old issue of GamePro that Primal Rage had been banned in the USA for being in bad taste. It's been a while since I read this, so I might be forgetting a detail or two, making me wrong and looking stupid, but I know they at least tried to ban it. It's a damn shame if they do ban it, GTA rocks and stuff.
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
Slashdot can REALLY get on my fucking nerves now and then. I think I'm going to have to use a Louisville slugger to beat this point into the editors' and submitters' thick skulls...
The NY Post is NOT a credible news source. The NY Post is a TABLOID RAG that INTENTIONALLY writes up utterly ridiculous bullshit for the sole purpose of entertaining and/or selling magazines (and, it might be noted that the NY Post sells like week old baked horseshit, and for good reason).
I'm in Pennsylvania and they sell the NY Post here. However, they pull a dirty trick - most places put it with the regular newspapers instead of with crap like National Inquirer and Weekly World News. Then, people buy it and mistake it for upstanding journalism with some level of integrity. They wrote the piece to incite people. I mod the entire NY Post staff, and the writer of that article in particular, with -1 Flamebait.
PLEASE stop thinking that the NY Post is a newspaper. It is a tabloid, nothing more. It doesn't represent popular opinion, and, in fact, when they write garbage like that, it doesn't even necessarily represent the NY Post's opinion. It's JUST A TABLOID.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Didn't we just have a discussion on Slashdot about the relative evilness of nudity vs. violence? The consensus seemed to be that violence was more evil than nudity. So I'd refute your statement that Duke 3D is worse than GTA (by worse, I mean more offensive/evil, I am NOT referencing the quality of the games =)
True story.
Am I the only one that read that as "Grand Theft Autobahn"??
Its lazy parents who can't read a For mature 18+ adults only on the box that make these stupid bans because they can't or won't reign in their children and tell them that they can't have something because they aren't old enough. These cowardly sheeply parents must be stopped.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Dear Mr. Byron,
I recently read your business editorial in the December 29 issue of the New York Post. I am glad to see that you are open to letters and responses concerning your rather harsh defamation of Take Two Interactive. Many in your position prefer to hide in semi-anonymity when writing such provocative words, but you rather than do so have included your e-mail address. I do admire your ability to present an argument irrespective of what I hold as my own position.
I am an average man living a rather average life in Toronto, Canada. I was born here, raised here and love living with the freedoms I have. Freedoms my grandfather fought for in the Second World War. I am a professional computer programmer and part-time philosophy major at The University of Toronto. I enjoy writing and reading among my hobbies. I am a very evident pacifist. I deplore guns. I despise violence. I am so against it that I can hardly stand to watch the news.
You may wonder why on Earth I was even reading your editorial at all. Well, the fact is, I am also an avid gamer. As you may have soon realized, as no doubt you have received many similar letters from other video game fans from around the USA and the World at large. A link to your article has been making the rounds through the gaming news world. After all, we are a passionate bunch, with strong views about our favourite hobby and many of us will defend our Right to purchase, play, and discuss video games of all sorts. It seems fair, if you ask me, since we do live in The Free World.
Now discounting the SEC's charges of fraud, of which I cannot really make any sort of argument against, I would like to take a serious posture against what you have said. I take issue with your skewed portrayal of video games, video gamers and the state of Take Two's production values. I am very tired of defending the video game world to obviously ignorant individuals. Not to take it personally against you, after all, you do seem highly educated, but rather misinformed. We must stop riding the Scare Tactics Train to the Media Circus surrounding many recent real-world violent acts through out the World and domestically and start taking a hard look at the real reason that they happen. Video games are not it.
I will grant the accusation that Take Two's Grand Theft Auto series of games depicts violent acts. If I attempted to deny such a fact would be just outrageous and quite impossible to do. Also the fact that much of the line-up of games that they produce for the Playstation 1 and 2, Gameboy, and PC contain some violent content would be equally difficult to ignore as fact. What I do want to say is that this is no different from the equally easily accessible media in the Western world such as movies and television and in books and newspapers.
Each year, from the hallowed studios of Hollywood, billions of dollars are spent on thousands of movies depicting gore, violent acts, sex, drug use, and all manner of objectionable activity that is portrayed in less detail in any of the recent Grand Theft Auto video games. To name only a few such as The Godfather would be an exercise in futility as examples of such films. Yet the same such movie is lauded as one of the all-time greatest movies.
In fact, just checking the heralded internet resource, imdb.com ( http://imdb.com/top_250_films ) names it the greatest by almost 700,000 more votes than its runner-up. In fact, a quick browse of the same list makes it evident that they find violent films to be quite highly regarded. It includes recent action flicks such as The Matrix, adventure films as The Lord of the Rings and older suspense movies such as Psycho and "Ultra-violent" dramas such as A Clockwork Orange. It would be quite arguable that these same movies are not as high quality as we grant them, and they all feature extremely graphic violence and other objectionable acts.
Yes, these movies are all rated R (Restricted) in the USA. The film industry is self-regulating in it's r
Paul K.
The game's very old now. Most people who want it, have it, and there's pleanty of pirated copies running around on the Internet.
so what if it gets banned...Speaking as a native of Florida, we have too many Hatians anyway. They're a major source of crime and decreasing property values because they come over, illegally, can't get jobs, so they break into cars, and steal things.
It's not right, morally or legally, to kill them or shoot at them or any of that, in real life. But, it's a harmless stress reliever to shoot at them in a game -- it's a way to take out frustration at a particular group of people without having to resort to dangerous and inappropriate physical violence.
The thing is, this isn't a case about violence, but violence against a specific racial group. If it was "Kill those gangstas" instead, the video game makers would be in the clear...
All this ban would do is make the game look much more interesting to teens. Not everyone has played it now, but if it gets banned EVERYONE will. Yeah, put a sticker on the game box saying "Warning: this game contains lots of violence" so parents can not buy it for their kids. Oh wait! They do that already in some places!
meh
"Kill these particular Hatians, but treat all other Hatians with dignity and respect!"
My joke got modded as Insightful and my insight got modded as Funny.
I should be suing the HBO for the soprano's, I should sue MGM for the Godfather, I should sue tristar for Goodfellas.
Every time some idiot hears that i'm italian, suddenly they start thinking i'm some stupid mafia goomba, and they start doing the whole Robert Di Nero accent when they talk to me. Fact is, I was raised in California, and so many of my family members were trying to hard to be "American" that most of them talked like John Wayne.
But I do enjoy afformentioned films and shows, as well as GTA. It's not like rockstar made a game that promotes Haitian genocide. They just did the whole voodoo momma stereotype(which *IS* a part of Haitian culture, just like the Mafia is part of my heritige)
I think these people need to get a life. It's a game, liven up.
I'm sorry for insulting the NY Times.
Yet if all of the game's anti-Haitian material was put into a book, people would call it free speech...
Yes, and the protest groups would protest the book.
-kgj
-kgj
A quick search on Google shows that Haitian civil rights groups are being paid by hollywood to lobby against video games. We all know that the old boys club on the west coast can't handle competition in entertainment industry. They need more kids to rent violent movies and less kids to rent violent video games.
Interesting, but hardly supprising considering that revenue for the combined US videogames market exceeded revenue for the combined US film and television production market.
Also it's fairly interesting that the games that get the most flack from the media and politicians are the ones made and marketed by independent game publishers rather than the major entertainment companies software publishing arms.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
At my local Blockbuster they have a sticker on Dead Or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball (XBOX) that says you need to be 18 or older to rent this title yet their copies of Grand Theft Auto Double Pack (XBOX) has no such requirements. In fact no other game, regardless of how violent the game is, has this requirement. I'm not for banning any game based on content, I can self-censor thanks, but what's wrong with our society that we have little or no problem with violence and illicit behavior in a game but a video game with digitally created girls wearing bikinis is considered soft porn?
Actually, I bet it would be banned for short periods of time in some regions but then would later be considered a classic and all high school students would be required to read it.
That's how I assume they picked the reading material for my English classes... not that I read any of it.
True story.
So, Rockstar could sell it via their website or catalogs or whatever. Fans would still be able to get the game if they really wanted to and knew where to look. However, there would be a gigantic sales hit if it disappeared from store shelves. Of course, this is only if Rockstar loses the court battle. I would like to point out just as a side note that the original GTA is available FREE at Rockstar's website here. See this ./ article.
Shameless self promotion
First off, the SC doesn't protect actions as much as it does pure speech and secondly, commercial speech (they are selling a video game) can be highly regulated. It's not as much as a slam dunk as you think. I'm with you though, just leave them alone and let the market decide!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
It's the right to criticize the government without fear of being imprisoned for saying it. Nothing more, nothing less. And it only applies in the USA. Don't quit your fry chef job to practice law.
Your arguements and statements are persuasive. However, I want to make a buck. Preferably a lot of them. So save your rhetoric for someone who is listening.
Sincerely,
Mr. Byron
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Well, while in Adult mode (which if I remember DN3d ships in), the blood is alot worse then in GTA, and sometimes you see the monsters just slowly die.
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That's partially because there are people who make a lot of money by playing up racism (take Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson for instance). I'm sure some prick lawyer or judge's political career is going to get a shot in the arm from this. Honestly, as long as there are economic benefits to making distinctions based on race, you're going to have racism. The people using racism to their advantage, be they slavers or clever politicians, won't let it die.
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So, by spending many entertaining hours playing Vice City, all the time aware that this is fantasy and the acts I commit in the game have no bearing on my real-life conduct, I have been committing acts far worse than fucking little boys? Sheesh, I had no idea!
In fact, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the New York Post. It is, of course, another lying gutter publication from Rupert Murdoch, the bloated impotent turd who's attempts to take over the world will hopefully fail when he dies of a extremely-painfull coronary.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
So you are saying this is just another manifestation of "follow the money." I haven't checked, but it sounds plausible to me. And of course, if that is the case, you know the suit is being brought under the Hollywood Amendment to the Bill of Rights - the Right of an entrenched industry to maintain profitability shall be guaranteed, regardless of changes in market, culture or technology. The RIAA has been working a few cases under the aegis of the Hollywood Amendment themselves.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
.. they should just wait. The game is old now. By raising all these issues, GTA is going to experience a new wave of interest.
You'd think after what happened with Napster that people in general would learn not to draw extra attention to something you hate so much.
"Derp de derp."
The GTA series is obviously a gritty, crime-themed bunch of computer games. I'd be interested as to whether the NY Post (mouthpiece for Rupert Murdoch, the upstanding champion of media integrity and wholesome entertainment) thinks that the Godfather films ought to be banned outright. After all, they're violent, and even contain some very racist dialogue in a scene involving a potential drug deal.
My bet is that most reasonable people (a category which excludes the staff of the New York Post, unfortunately) wouldn't say we should expunge one of our nation's classic cinematic masterpeices from the record just because it deals in some very dark and violent themes. Of course, parents have a right and, I think we can agree in this case a responsibility, to sheild their children from very violent entertainment until they see fit, but people need to face facts: we're never going to have a G-rated society. People know that in GTA, you play a bad guy, and they know that bad guys do bad things. Playing Vice City didn't make me want to go out and kill any Haitians (I imagine that might distress my Haitian friends and, incidently, the out-of-context quote refers to a pitched battle between rival Haitian and Cuban gangs), it didn't make me want to deal cocaine, and it only gave me a slight desire to learn how to ride a motorcycle. Anyone who is young or stupid enough to have a video game seriously wound their moral sensibilities has parents for a reason. And as for those teenagers who took potshots at passing vehicles, supposedly in imitation of the game, does anyone really think that they didn't possess some violent and dangerous tendencies to begin with? If they'd never set eyes on a PS2, would we have never heard of their exploits? My hunch is no.
Sorry, New York Post, but I think that most people are just too smart to give in to your impulse to crush the competition when it comes to glorifying mass murder. It's just a game, get over it.
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
I've been told to kill Germans in tons of World War II games and no one's complained about that...
This sig is only here so people stop skipping the last lines of my posts.
This news makes me want to kill Haitians even more than the game made me want to...
You gotta love this country. We have the freedom to release games that are totally devoid of any social or psychological benefit whatsoever. We can create a new form of entertainment where people kill each other in a virtual reality situation for amusement. Good Bless America!
Yea, yea it's just a game, and we all have our escapes, but it's really sad that such a significant percentage of young people today would prefer to waste so much of what they'll ultimately consider precious time on a pursuit which has virtually no redeeming value whatsoever. When I was the age of most of the kids who are into this game, I was writing software for Fortune 500 companies, playing music and other pursuits which ultimately afforded me the opportunity to travel the world performing with great bands, own my own software company, and effectively "retire" before I hit 30 with mid-six figures in cash in my savings.
Meanwhile kids these days spend half their lives in front of video games and there parents work two jobs and spend no time with them, and when they can't focus on a single thing for more than six minutes, they get pumped full of prozac and turn into zombies. The future looks bright.
Looks like video games will all be Tetris and Pong from now on.
No, let's be honest about it. People are holding games up to an entirely different standard than they hold movies to. It's based on the broken assumption that games are for kids and movies can be for adults only.
From the NY Post article:
In Tennessee last summer a motorist was killed and his passenger wounded when two boys - aged 14 and 16 - played "Grand Theft Auto" and then decided to go out and take sniper shots at cars, just like in the game.
I find it peverse that GTA is held to blame in this particular case. More to the point, what the fuck were two underage boys doing with access to shotguns?
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Actually, I bet it would be banned for short periods of time in some regions but then would later be considered a classic and all high school students would be required to read it.
....
That's how I assume they picked the reading material for my English classes... not that I read any of it.
E.g. "Catcher in the Rye" -- possibly even "Naked Lunch". But these are minority cases: an enormous volume of hardcore porn, for example, has been published; but you won't find any of it in school.
Now, here's a weird story. I once noticed two students in a university medical library watching a video of a woman masturbating -- evidently required viewing for a human sexuality course. I'm not against porn, but in the context of a medical library, with lots of students and teachers in the area, I found the video strangely disturbing
-kgj
-kgj
Sources? I forget who owns whom these days, but a lot of game companies, if not in bed with them, at least sleep over at that west coast old boys club. (But nothing wrong happens, honest!)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
You can kill a cop, steal his gun, and then use it to shoot someone else. Or you can pick up a prostitute and have sex with her in the back of your stolen car, then beat her to death - or shoot her, bludgeon her, whatever you want.
I'm just a tiny bit more concerned about these things actually going on in the world -- which they do -- than whether or not someone wants to explore the dark side in digital form.
Desensitizing? Yes. But hell, if we weren't already desensitized to that stuff, everyone would be too disgusted to buy or play the thing. How's it doing on the shelves?
Are there any? What do you think of this lawsuit? Do you find the game offensive?
This news shouldn't be here.
Who cares about those crazy things people take to the US tribunals?
Next news: Bush's cat has cancer. World tragedy.
Any complex system has these types of problems.
Nothing can be done to prevent that save better care and feeding of the system. The problem isn't the law. It's that lawyers are ethics free. Not that one can blame them. People talk about honor, integrity, honesty, but they are rare traits indeed. They simply make better conversation than practice. It's the small evils that we tell ourselves that we can't do without that lead to the great inequities. As much as we might like to point to the world around us the fatal flaw is a little closer to home. If you steal pens from work, or lie on your resume, or practice in nepotism, you're not a better person than the Haitians and their lawyers, you're just a better sophist.
It's just a game! That NYP article about how these types of games rank up there with child molestation and snuff films is a disillusioned mindset to have. How in the hell can you compare a FANTASY WORLD GAME with *fictional* characters, to the ACTUAL defiling of a child?? Futhermore, a snuff film usually involves the ACTUAL killing of a woman after ACTUAL non-consenual sex. those two comparasons NYP made are not only misinformed to the extreme, but also totally wrong.
A well rounded indivudual with decent morals and values wouldn't think of doing the things potrayed in video games. It's not the publisher's fault that the content of their games could further warp a warped person. No more than you could hold Mead responsible for your child stabbing another child with one of their pencils, or hold Ford responsible because you killed someone with their truck.
I'm sick and tired of parents and lawmakers looking to hollywood and game publishers as the sole excuse for their corrupted children. You want to corrupt a kid? Make then watch C-SPAN or CNN and the news every night. Most of the time it's a free-for-all hoopla on who killed who, which politican screwed over who, or how many times can someone be put in and taken off death row. Among other nasty things that are true and actually happening.
Then people say to me "how can you support the mistreatment of women in a game, but yet you don't support it in real life?" It's easy. One is fake the other is real. If someone made a game that blurted the words "kill whitey" and got points for it, so what? Would i be offended, not really, it's a game. If a person of another racial background was going to mug me, and said he played the "kill whitey" game, right before he capped me, would i be cursing the game maker? Why bother? It's not their fault that this guy who's mugging me is a moron, he's the one who's about to cap me, not the game.
On another related note, why must games like these be hounded for their content? I'm sure there are many like myself who enjoy an escape from relatity once in a while. To be able to come home after dealing with annoying customers and have some shoot'em up fun for a little bit will not hurt anyone. This is pretty close to becoming the thought police. People need escapes to stay sane.
A Penny for my thoughts? Here's my two cents. I got ripped off!
in the way some special interest groups use it to further their agenda. Instead of boycotting or protest these groups simply try to censor by using the courts. Some of these groups spend millions trying to sensor individuals, groups, and companies. It is ironic that many of these groups supporting sensorship are called civil liberties groups.
Nah, not giving a black guy (or whatever) the opportunity to be killed in a game == racism... if you are a percentage of the population you got to be a percentage of the road kill. How real would it be to GTA through China Town and run over Russians; sheesh!
The whole world's going crazy. Soon you'll all be like me :-)
If there are much worse games out there, why are they forcing Rockstar to pull there product out of stores. Other then saying that haitians were being killed in the game. If you play most WW2 sims, you are killing germans or japanesse. Is there a bigger reason behind this, like the start of censoring games. If you think about it, you start with something pretty small like this, and then you start targeting everything else, and make alot of money out of it at the same time.
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when wold this stinking pseudo-politic class disappear from the face of this planet and leave pp in peace. :@
this mf are sayd to live a decent live.
but they really are a troop of kook-skrz that would do anything to plese thier bosses and stick to their jobs and "good people" status.
this bunch of mf must
OK, I'm bored, since my office is dead due to the little wind storm going on, so I'll take a long walk of this short intellectual pier for fun...
/.'ers can relate to).
Let me start by saying: (1) Yes, I am a lawyer; (2) yes I think these lawsuits are silly; (3) I don't believe the parents have a very good chance of winning.
Whenever this issue comes up, there is the inevitable deluge of virulent "where were the parents!" and "why weren't you teaching your kids values" type posts/comments/rants. Despite the mind numbing banality of most of these, people seem to continue to harp on about it over and over.
What I find particularly interesting is the attempt to ascribe these types of lawsuits to "liberals" and "the left", and the rabid conservative mantra that liberals have "destroyed personal responsibility." (Like fiscal responsibility? largest deficit in history)
I am wary of these "where were the parents" type simplifications. It seems to me that these are all based on a mythical image of the American Family that is taken straight from 1950's television, and has little (or no) bearing on today's society. Where were the parents? Working two jobs that require 60+ hours a week so they can continue to enjoy the "middle class" life in some suburban development near a semi-decent school. By the time Mom & Dad have come home at 6:00 or 7:00 pm and made dinner, they are probably way too strung out from a 14 hour day to be providing much useful moral guidance.
Don't get me wrong, I support working Mom's and Dads. My family is a two-job deal, but we are lucky in that, because I have a high-priced legal education, we can afford full time child care for our tots. Most parents in the U.S. can't do that.
Meanwhile the kids are sitting around at home from 3pm when schools let out, thanks to shorter school days brought about by reduced budgets. There aren't too many organized, safe after school programs anymore (especially for kids who aren't athletic, or aren't into sports, which I'd be a large number of
Sure, 99% of the people smart enough to read this site were smart enough to separate fact from fancy at a pretty young age. But ask yourself: didn't you do anything stupid at the age of 14 (or 24) that you now look back on and go "whoa...I was an idiot..." The thing maturity brings is an ability to think through the potential consequences of your actions. That's what "learning from experience" is all about. Now, none of us (hopefully) ever decided to shoot at trucks on the highway. But I'll bet a few people here tossed things off an overpass...or put things on the train tracks...or stole a stop sign (guilty)...or any of a hundred things that could have caused serious injury. The kids involved in the GTA case are probably particularly sub-par in the brains department, but they didn't set out to hurt people, they just didn't consider that if you shoot at the side of a truck (a supposedly destructive but not dangerous act) it might have dire consequences if you MISS. (After all, how many of us miss all that often using the sniper rifle in GTA?) So, bad decision on their part.
People are incensed that TakeTwo and Sony are sued. It is descried as evidence of the out of control courts. However, what conservatives never seem to point out is that almost all of these suits are dismissed early on (and if you dig into the ones that aren't, like the infamous McDonald's coffee case, you find the facts aren't as cut-and-dried as you think). In other words, the courts aren't out of control; they are doing exactly what they are designed to do: adjudicate the rights of parties who feel they have been wronged.
One last (semi-random) point. Someone raised a first amendment issue below. That isn't really relevant here. Whether TakeTwo has a right to publish GTAIII is different from whether they can be held responsible for consequences that naturally flow from their decision to do so. (I'm not saying that shooting at trucks is a natural consequence). People's def
Make me your friend; my fans get +1 comment scores.
Meantime, Take-Two is milking this product for all it is worth: Next year the company will even be introducing a Gameboy version of the thing, so that kids can carry it around with them wherever they go. This way they'll be able to get re-stimulated, whenever necessary, with some of the most menacing messages known to civilized man.
Gameboy version? When??? I have resisted buying the GB-SP, but this would be a reason to get one NOW. I'd like to thank the NY Post for letting me know I will be able to get this!
You know no one is going to listen that kind of thing.
It makes too much sense.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
GTA is labelled as Mature and the kids can't buy it in the store just like rated R movies. However, the kids can play the games and watch the movies if they have an adult actually go buy it for them (or if they download it). Either way, the rating systems don't work as the should so why are they making such a fuss about GTA and games like that and not about all the movies out there. A couple of years ago they were talking about movies as being the bad thing that influence kids to go and kill each other and now its the video games. The interest groups are just going after the group that seems the easiest to get to, the video game industry might be easier to get to than the movie industry.
... at least it isn't live action!
Another thing, why is that kids shows like Power Rangers or some cartoon like that show people getting killed or "eliminated" in droves and the interest groups don't have a problem with that. GTA is not all that realistic looking if you think about it
...for kids, where you will have to pick flowers instead of hijacking cars
If that's true, Hollywood's plan will backfire. Nothing makes something more popular than telling people that they can't have it.
wow , i dint know you could do that !
Time to reinstall the game to find out.
peace
Pass around the penny-arcade.com/childsplay/ link to those who think like the fool who wrote the article.
This signature does not exist. It has never existed. It is all a figment of your imagination.
The fact that people are venal is a given. The point is not wheather the poster or the game maker are better people than the haitians. The point is wheather anyone should have to suffer endless pain at the hands of the legal system.
There is also the bigger question wheather lawyers have an obligation to uphold justice. Maybe your'e a lawyer or a law student, hence unable to see the damage caused. Quite simply the damage done to society on a daily basis by lawyers is truly staggering. As much as american businesses may have problems with the labor costs here, the true motivator for moving offshore is to escape liability. Its the only way to escape the pernicious legal system.
and the chinks, spics, kikes, gooks, wetbacks and crackers!
I think this post indicates only one thing we can learn from this debacle: All Haitians must be deported from the United States to their island hell hole of orign. Nowhere in the history of mankind has a more wretched place existed. Somehow, nature in its randomness has bestowed upon those people a level of barbarity previously unknown. They are cruel joke, a testament to Werner Heisenberg, who first made us understand that pretty much anything can happen out there.
The only rational course of action we as civilized members of society can do is insure that this vicious cancer upon our society does not spread. After all Haitians are returned to their island home, that island should be permanently quarantined, with escape being punishable by death. People of the Dominican Republic should be encouraged to flee, with generous rewards given to those who wish to settle in Antarctica.
Once the Haitian threat is isolated, the Prime Directive will take over. Let the Haitian people develop in peace, naturally, without the undo influence of our corrupt society. There, they can work their fine art of mind control and zombification so that in several centuries, we can perhaps steal that technology from them and use it to make the perfect business manager.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
*snicker* And then we eat their babies? Or is it our babies? I get confused....
See, benzapp (unless I'm wildly mistaken, heh) gets the fantasy-reality thing.
Me, I'm just waiting for Doom III to come out... I've been feeling morally ambiguous about whether I should slaughter any demons I come across, so I need the game to tell me.
I'm black and have Haitian friends... most who love to play GTA. So if they aren't offended... who exactly is getting offended by this?
Because power rangers sucks and Vice City kicks ass.. geez, what are you, stupid?
"Don't watch this because the court says it's evil" isn't required when you can already use "Don't watch this because it is LAAAAAAME"
full disclosure: I would be in favor of a giant robot ninja kids show that didnt blow.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
the word "Haitian" with the word "blacks" and watch the sparks fly. It wouldn't be free speech anymore, it woulld be hate speech.
The Slashdot article did not cite the NY Post as a credible news source. It cited the article here as an example of "media opinion" which it undoubtably is and before as an "inflammatory article" which it also obviously is..
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
They take the tact of whatever direction they are heading is good because it's 'their' side. This goes along with the '11th commandment' nonsense Reagan derived from the religious '11th commandment' quackary. They view themselves as Republican first, American second, if at all.
No, no, no, no. YOU CAN'T OUTLAW STUPID LAWSUITS WITHOUT OUTLAWING LEGITIMATE ONES. A lawsuit is frequently the *only* weapon a consumer or employee has to keep companies from screwing them over. Did you know that California is one of the few (only?) states that make it a felony for an employer to disregard saftey laws and regulations resulting in a workers death? In most places its a misdemenor. If you don't live in California and your brother is killed working on some heavy machinery because they didn't a) shut it down and b) have a spotter, your only recourse is a wrongful death lawsuit. If damages are capped, at say $500,000, the company will merrily keep breaking rules if it saves them money. They'll just write it off as a business expense.
Same thing with consumer products - if one of your family members was killed by one of the Ford Explorers with one of the bad Firestone tires, would you feel their life was worth $500,000? When they knew there was a problem and said nothing, hoping no one would notice? If the damages are capped the company wont feel any pain. Microsoft could be fined 10 billion dollars tomorrow and would write out a check with only a sigh, and keep right on doing what got it that its 40 billion in the first place.
And most of the so called "frivolous" lawsuits that the tort reform people like to site are anything but. Either they didn't exist in the first place (like the guy who supposedly tried to trim his hedge by picking up his lawnmower and accidently cut his foot), or by emmiting significant details. Perfect example: the McDonalds coffee lady. She did not sue and win because she dumped hot coffee on her own damn self. She sued and one because McDonalds had gotten HUNDREDS of complains from both customers and health inspectors about the temperature of their coffee and ignored them, and because she got THIRD DEGREE BURNS REQUIRING 280 THOUSAND DOLLARS IN SURGERY. She. Was. Burned. To. The. Bone. Third degree burns. Skin grafts. And she didn't even want to sue them in the first place, just receive reimbursment for her medical bills. It was after they blew her off that it went to trial. And the final damage award was reduced anyway. What was it in the first place? About $3 million. How much is that to McDonalds? About two days worth of sales. For just coffee.
To recap: you can't ban unreasonable lawsuits without also banning reasonable ones. The best you can hope for is that stupid lawsuits are dismissed early on. Because the alternative is not worth the cost, ever.
I find it appaling that they tried to use shotguns to snipe. How could GTA fail them and lead these two boys to such a poor weapons selection? Even with flechette sabot ammunition it's a poor choice compared to a rifle.
what the hell is that?
That presents a real problem. Guns are very tightly regulated through legal channels. IF you wish to buy a gun from a legit dealer, you must be of proper age (18 for long guns, 21 for hand guns). When you declare your intent to purchase it, they will take your personal information, and call the police with it. The police then use that to do a background check via NICS. If that should return any number of red flags, such as being underage, have a felony conviction, having outstanding warrants, having domestic violence convictions, or having been comitted to a mental health facility, the sale will be denied.
So this means that underage kids have only two real methods of getting guns:
1) Illegal dealers.
2) Their parents.
This was a case of #2. Well then, that would mean that the parents are to blame for permitting their kids to have unsupervised access to firearms. That implies personal responsibility on the part of the parents. That is the one thing the world seems to not be about these days, is responsibility for ones own actions. Parents blame their kids behaviour on videogames or TV. Heck, leaders of dictatorships blame their countries' problem on the US.
Also note that the parents of the kids that did this don't hav a lot of money, not nearly as much as Rockstar Games does. So they are a perfect scapegoat. It's not our (our meaning parents) fault that our kids have no morals and access to weapons, it's those eveil video game companies that, conveniantly, we can try to milk for cash.
Same sort of thing happened with the firearm industry on numerous occasions. People sued firearm manufactures when a death occured and one of their guns were used. The lawsuits were almost universally unsuccessful so the shark lawyers ahve moved onto new targets, by and large, though firearm lawsuits are still tried from time to time.
I help scummy lawyers get their cocaine back, and run it for the Mafia. I often stand on rooftops and snipe at passerby with a rocket launcher. I sometimes will run around city streets with a flamethrower and burn random people.
I like to run into the police station and preceeded by grenades and clean up with a machine gun. I drive on the beach and run over people who are sunbathing.
I beat most hookers with a baseball bat, take their money, and buy guns with it. I can sometimes be found running over moped riders, waiting 'til they get back on, then elbowing them in the throat and stealing their bike.
I drive on the sidewalks. On golf courses. In parks and malls. I run over anyone I see. If I'm on foot, I'll run up to someone and kick them in the head. Sometimes I'll beat them until the blood spreads in a spreading pool.
I blame my parents.
Holy Mackeral!
And while the courts are at it they should also try to remove Lemon Heads from candy stores. Those candies aren't very P.C.
And how much money/time is being wasted with this suit? Sheshhh.
The courts SHOULD BE working on more important issues such as getting a better voting system in Florida.
It's time to leave the U.S.
Perhaps I'll go to Hati.
- Gentlemen, start your hybrids!
...is an extremely stupid idea. You're punishing the people who win cases. What the fuck? Why not simply make the loser of any civil case pay for all legal fees? Simple, logical, fair.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
the guns with walkie-talkies,
.. ... See the monkey? Look at the silly monkey!
and Rockstar should use the chewbaca defense(and hire Johnny Cochran).
.
is making me want to go out and really kill a few Hatians.
Relax, it's just a joke
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Kill all the Hatians. Problem solved.
Quaeres dicere, "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". Unum verbum est.
I thought it was more of a handjob arrangement.
As a resident of South Florida, this case makes my head ache. Based on the facts of the case as I understand them, the game should not be banned, either by the government or by Walmart.
1) The offensive phrase apparently refers to a competing criminal gang made up of Haitians, not to the Haitian community in general.(?)
2) If incitement to virtual behavior that would be illegal in reality is deemed inappropriate, the entire genre of first person shooters and much of several other genres would be illegal as well.
3) If virtual child porn is legal, how can virtual racism be illegal?
On the other hand, Haitians have to be the most oppressed people in the western hemisphere. First, their home country is a wasteland, then they have to risk life and limb to get here, then (unlike Cubans) they have to hide from immigration because they don't get amnesty just for reaching shore. Finally, if they do get through all that, even African-Americans pick on them. In public HS here "Are you Haitian?" is the same as "Are you stoopid?" (see Disclaimer)
Finally, the parent comment is one of the best balanced discussions of this issue in the whole thread. It doesn't just discuss the specific issue of the lawsuit, but it addresses the broader issues of morality in media consumption.
Disclaimer: The phrase "even African-Americans" is used to indicate that this is a case of black on black racism (or nationalism), it doesn't mean "even the lowly black folks pick on the Haitians".
We are the 198 proof..
That's (part of) what conservative means.
Just because "Republican" has meant "conservative" for several generations doesn't mean they are now. Political parties change beliefs from time to time. The Republican party used to be the progressive/liberal party, if you recall.
Conservatives are stil Conservatives. Our Republican adminstration, however, isn't ver Conservative at all. Bush has a very large government that has sought to increase federal and executive power at every turn.
People need to dissociate their political beliefs from political parties. The party that used to represent what you personally believe may change to represent that which you abhor.
The downside is you don't get to vote in primaries. The updside is you can remain true to your actual beliefs, instead of subverting them to the cause of someone else.
Anyone who isn't an indepenent is a tool, or someone who wishes to wield tools.
The enemies of Democracy are
Has anyone linked to any briefing in the case? There's an issue of whether the GTA games cause or have been correlated to increased violent behavior --- as opposed to maybe being correlated with lessened violent behavior. I'm wondering whether regulating actual guns might not go much further toward reducing violence. Just a thought . . . .
I'm laughing at clouds.
If this succeeds and GTA is banned and its makers are fined, then can we go after all of the NAACP or Nation of Islam people whom publically said 'Kill Whitey', 'Hymentown', or other racist comments.
/. readers, 'whitey', 'white bread', 'honky', 'cracker', and 'white cracker' are all very racist terms and should be dealt with and exposed with just the same level of publicity as if they were equivalent words directed against black.
Believe it or not
Should we get the FBI and DOJ involved each and every time the criminal is black and the victim is white to see if it is a hate crime?
The thing is... its not about violence against a specific racial group! Have you ever played any of the games. The majority of the comic relief of these games comes from the Black, Italian, Chineese, Japaneese, Haitian, Cuban, South American, Redneck, and NPRish... sterotypes. This game makes fun at EVERYONE, which is clever, as they cannot be held accountable for isolating any one group.
...lots of people are under the mistaken notion that US laws and rights apply to other countries. Just trying to head off the morons at the pass.
I just checked your posts, and you seem to make great ones--
..Of course you plagarized the first, and this one looks sort of familiar as well.
You were an ISP tech throttling down P2P apps in the first...Now a Lawyer? Interesting career move. In one day.
Freaking troll, get some life, but have your own.
No where in this game does it single out Haitians as a target.
1.) If you can't get this thru your thick skull as an adult, you got problems.
2.) If you can't get this thru to your kid as a parent, you're a shitty parent.
Typical American way of always pointing the finger at sports athlete and video games as a source of problem. Race and every other problem in this country comes from lousing parenting in the family. I am sorry but if we really are shooting for a better society, the law should ban divorces first. No reason why you should have 40 kids and 40 divorces in a life time. That fuck things up in this country way worse than GTA + GTA: vice city.
Ok, first off, GTA is a kick ass game and I don't care what you're lame-ass uneducated arguments are. If your kids are the type that would go off chucking molotovs at cars just because they were playing a game involving it, then blame yourselves and/or their environment, not the l33t programmers at Rockstar Games.
;) (don't give me a terrorism gripe for that one..I don't wanna go there)...For me, when I'm mad at someone and feel like lettin off steam, I play this game or any other game where violence is ok, because I know that it will help me cool down. Half-Life works just as well, but I don't see any states trying to shutdown Valve or Sierra's creative gaming departments because some nerd with a rich dad attempted to create inter-demensional transports and end up blowing up a city block.
Secondly, as a 15-year-old mostly sane individual owning both games, I can say that this game has never tickled an urge to go off and cap a Haitian, African-American, Mexican, or any other race/individual out there. These games don't inspire hate crimes, violence, or anarchy...they come off as fun, because as we all know, guys like blowin stuff up
Bottom line: These games are fun, honest, and creative attempts at revolutionizing the way games are meant to be played and NOT a call to violent, illegal, and immoral action.
nothing.can.stop.me.now
Check my previous posts and you'll see where I stand on this, but I do believe in exploring all the possible counter-arguments, and I have this one in mind:
are video games different creatures psychologically than movies and other media because of their interactive nature? Yes, violent movies desensitize us, and we've traditionally been careful with how that violence is portrayed, rather than a body-count type of philosophy (ie: is the cold-blooded killer a hero or a villain?).
My background is in psych (and my childhood spent playing video games), so I am curious: is digital emulation different than mere passive exposure in the degree to which it influences us? I've recently played through both Deus Ex and Max Payne, and let me tell you, I'm a cold blooded digital killer. In real life? I don't think so. But it's easy to sneer at influences -- I have free will; I'm not a machine -- but of course in a very real way, a machine I am, and even the pragmatists must admit the existence of conditioning.
Thoughts?
Don't you mean the Millions of illegal Mexican immigrants. Except, I say we send them back with rifles and artillery to take care of the political situation there.
I've heard that the American-Orcish community is protesting the recent LOTR movies and video games. Apparantley it sterotypes Orcs to be ugly, misformed, drooling, fiendish blood drinking monsters.
;-)
Luckily for them, the Orcs are currently in charge of Congress so a ban on anti-Orc material should be forthcoming
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
I hope you are willing to drop your membership as soon as your party (whichever it may be) deviates from the beliefs you hold to. Otherwise, you're wrong, and are indeed a tool.
The enemies of Democracy are
yes, that makes sense.
I can see them now:
"Hey, instead of spending money and geting a piece of the video game market, lets spend money and try to subvert it!"
Genius!
"I mean it is in its infancy and hardly anybody play them, so we're bound to be successfull!"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It's funny that the US of A are always like "land of the free, freedom of speech and shit" but there is no way you'll see the smallest part of a nipple (female, duh!) on TV even late at night and you can't say so-called 'dirty' words, even when they would be used in real life situation. Here in Quebec, you may be surprised to see full frontal nudity anytime of day and people don't get blipped on TV. Violence is of course something we do NOT encourage but at least our reaction is not "let's hide it and act as if it's not there". We'd rather use the "let's sit and talk about it" approach. Just my 2 cents.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=91249&cid=7857 545
First off, I have a problem with this game. It may be beautifully rendered in gory blood, guts and all, and it may have some of the best voice acting in a video game ever, that does not change the fact that the main character (which is usually a hero and should be a hero) is a drug dealer and he has to murder, cheat, steal kill cops or whatever just to achieve the objective of the game is horrible. This is not a heroic action. Some might say what is the difference in this and in a game such as America's Army or other games that can be considered violent and I say a whole lot of difference. The character of the game is immoral in the first place. In the second place, he commits many many sins to achieve the goal of the game. There's a bit of difference in this game then there is in Doom, Quake, or whatever. In Doom or Quake, your typically killing demons and other monsters. Not innocents or even opposite gang members. Some may say there's no difference but there is a distinct one.
Unforunately, as despicable a game this is, I have to agree with some of the fans taht are defending it. The Government shoud only try to keep the extremely immoral stuff off the market. For example, if there was a game that every person, even a Slashdotting gamer says is so horrific it makes them vomit, well, that should not be on the market. It would take a heck of a game to produce the effect strong enough that the SC should ban. The game in question, while violent, it's really no more violent then other games on the market. As immoral as the game is, it doesn't matter. The government shouldn't ban it. This is a consequence of freedom of speech. The SAD thing is that there is a section of society that thinks a game like this is great. THAT'S what' wrong about the game. People that are raising their kids by PS2, XBOX and Gamecube are the real problem. I have chosen not to buy a game such as this because I portend to be a moral person. I ain't a saint, but I do try to do what is right. But because I still want to be able to preach the gospel, praise Jesus in public and other activities befitting a Christian I have to let others say what they want to as well. Banning any speech is a bad thing. It does not let the person in question make their own decisions. This does not stop me from speaking against the game(as you can't stifle any speech...even if it's against what you believe in). I would stop short of asking kindly old Uncle Sam doing something about it and would go the direction of trying to convince others that they should not be messing with this game. Some may say this is brain washing but I disagree. If I convince enough people that this game is immoral and rubbish and not a good game to buy, then it won't be profitable for companies to make a game like this so they will make other games that will sell. IE, the market decides. There are enough people in this country that think this way to have the desired affect, but again, they are letting the game magazines and others guide them in their game purchase. Also, parents are just buying the game for thier kids instead of checking it out themselves first. If the PARENTS did their job (scoped out the M rating and or other items concerning the game), the GTA games would not have done as well as they did. If the parents did the job, the game would not be where it is today. So, in closing, the game is horribly immoral, but because I want the right to say what I want, I have to let them say what they want.
Gorkman
Blatantly stolen via Google:
Alarmed by the unhealthy choices they make every day, more and more Americans are calling on the government to enact legislation that will protect them from their own behavior.
''The government is finally starting to take some responsibility for the effect my behavior has on others,'' said New York City resident Alec Haverchuk, 44, who is prohibited by law from smoking in restaurants and bars. ''But we have a long way to go. I can still light up on city streets and in the privacy of my own home. I mean, legislators acknowledge that my cigarette smoke could give others cancer, but don't they care about me, too?"
''It's not just about Americans eating too many fries or cracking their skulls open when they fall off their bicycles," said Los Angeles resident Rebecca Burnie, 26. ''It's a financial issue, too. I spend all my money on trendy clothes and a nightlife that I can't afford. I'm $23,000 in debt, but the credit-card companies keep letting me spend. It's obscene that the government allows those companies to allow me to do this to myself. Why do I pay my taxes?''
Beginning with seatbelt legislation in the 1970s, concern over dangerous behavior has resulted in increased governmental oversight of private activities. Burnie and Haverchuk are only two of a growing number of citizens who argue that legislation should be enacted to protect them from their own bad habits and poor decisions.
Anita Andelman of the American Citizen Protection Group is at the forefront of the fight for ''greater guardianship for all Americans.''
''Legislation targeting harmful substances like drugs and alcohol is a good start, but that's all it is--a start,'' Andelman said. ''My car automatically puts my seatbelt on me whenever I get into it. There's no chance that I'll make the risky decision to leave it off. So why am I still legally allowed to drink too much caffeine, watch television for seven hours a day, and, in some states, even ride in the back of a pick-up truck? It just isn't right.''
The ACPG has also come out in favor of California's proposed ''soda tax,'' which addresses unhealthy eating habits.
''The legislation, if approved, would establish a tax on sodas and other beverages with minimal nutritional value, and the money would be used to fund programs that address the growing epidemic of childhood obesity,'' Andelman said. ''If our own government doesn't do something to make us get in better shape--or, for that matter, dress a little nicer--who will?''
Rev. Ted Hinson, founder of the Christian activist group Please God Stop Me, said he believes that the government will listen.
''For years, legislators have done an admirable job of listening to constituents who want the dangerous, undesirable behavior of their neighbors regulated,'' Hinson said. ''That is a good sign for those of us who wish for greater protection from ourselves. But you should see the filth I still have access to, just by walking into a store or flipping on my computer. There is still much work to be done if we are going to achieve the ideal nanny-state.''
Bernard Nathansen, an attorney for the Personal Rights Deferred Center in Oakes, Va., is one of many individuals working to promote ''governmental accountability.'' His organization arranges class-action lawsuits on behalf of Americans who have been hurt by the government's negligence, including individuals who suffer health problems related to overexposure to sunlight.
''We can all agree that many choices are too important to be left up to a highly flawed individual,'' Nathansen said. ''Decisions that directly affect our health, or allow us to expose ourselves to potential risks, should be left to the wiser, cooler heads of the government.''
''But things like food and drug labels are half-measures,'' Nathansen said. ''The regulations, however well-intentioned, often all
I did a search on Google ("Haitian civil rights hollywood") and found no such reference. Could you please reply with links?
Even if it is free speech, the whole premise of the game is WRONG... not ERRONEOUS, but rather UNETHICAL and IMMORAL.
OK, so your going to shit on me for saying its immoral, and your going to gibe me for saying "shit" in the same posting... go ahead, it wont change the facts. And they are that my 11 year old son keeps bugging me to rent the game for his XBox, because at school some of his friends have played it and its REAL COOL.
There is no fucking way that I want my 11 year old to play this.
Unfortunately the companies are trying to sell it to him and other kids his age. It's in XBox magazine, and it's going to be on GameBoy Advance soon, now if that's not going after kids then tell me what is!
Games like these should be rated X not M, that way it would be easier to lobby retailers NOT to stock X rated games.
Todays kids are already confused enough without seeing crap like "Grand Theft Auto".
If you don't like free speech, maybe Haiti was a better choice than America. Bye bye.
I mean, what is this? My parents educated my brothers and I very well, and when they said "Don't watch this" or "Don't play this game" because they thought that this material wasn't appropriate for us, we didn't. We learned to obey our parents, to trust their judgement even if sometimes we disagreed with them. I am now 20 years old, I am an adult, they no longer really tell me what to do or what not to do: they know that I am responsible and that I will do what is right.
So instead of asking to ban games, give better parenting lessons to the future mommies and daddies, teach them how to educate their kids, how to make them understand that some things are not for them.
Here we got GTA3 about two years ago. Me an one of my brothers were old enough to play according to my parents, but not our baby brother. It didn't please him that he couldn't play, but as far as I know, he respected our parents' decision until they said that it was okay, that he could play.
Also, once kids obey parents, it's easier to convince them that Vim is the superior editor ;)
It is the poverty of intellect that great wealth has always loved to surround itself with.
Why should things be different just because we have the internet?
I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not, but it's a simple example of l33t speak (the l33t comes from "elite"). The most basic form is to substitute numbers for letters, 0=oh, 1=eye, 2=zee, 3=ee, 4=ay, 5=ess, 7=tee. There really is no standard, for example some people use 4=are.
There are, of course, more cryptic forms of l33t speak that use lots of vertical bars, less/greater than signs, and such to approximate letters (e.g. "|" would be the letter "kay").
If you look at my recent posts, I've taken to converting my subjects into l337 speak just so I've got something unique going.
In the case you asked about, my subject was "Other media" referring to movies and books. So it was already in English, just not the script you're used to =)
True story.
Hmmm... the less-than sign got removed from my post. When I give that example for the letter kay with something in quotation marks, it should be a vertical bar followed by a less-than sign.
True story.
I don't see anyone suing Hollywood because of something that a mafioso says in a movie.
:)
Look out for some Nazi group who'll come begging for his part of the pie
my wife worked at one of the most expensive daycare...erm.. "preschools" in the seattle area.
it was a joke. you or your wife should quit so you can raise your own children, as opposed to having some white trash single mom thats herself too poor to afford daycare not paying attention to your kids so she can get enough money to cover the part of her rent that isn't subsidized already, and get free daycare for her kid(s) at the same time.
you're a lawyer - you probably make enough money to get by on a single income. consider what you're offering your children by letting random people raise them for you.
seriously - check into how many of the "teachers" at your child care provider are young single moms -- simply because its a convenient arrangement for them to get paid and get free daycare out of the deal
if i were paying 1k or more per month per child (the rates at this place in seattle) id be furious to know what went on at this place...
anyway, all that aside - just because you and many other parents have shifted the responsibility for raising their children onto others doesn't mean that you should work on shoring up the legal system to compensate. just because industry and the business world has been moving to the "outsource and sue for breach of conract" model for a long time doesn't mean that parenting should have an appropriate analog. most children don't care what kind of SUV's mommy and daddy drive, but do care when mommy and daddy only see them/each other for 3 hrs a day and its all fighting.
you and others may not live up to the "ideal" family, but that doesn't change the fact that its still the ideal arrangement.
incidentally, none of this is the governments problem. government!= parents. I wish people would stop trying to make it the governments problem. you of course have (and excercize) to use an altnerate family configuration, complete with outsourced parenting. don't legislate the country into making sure that thats the only possibility, and that parents that actually want an active role in their childs upbringing cant have that (and instead get to choose from government schools, government labelled music, government approved video games, etc)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
and it's video games in the new century....
It's simply a matter of certain segments in society not liking the way the world is today.
The PMRC it's still alive and kicking it seems.
I wonder how long these born-agains will be given the right to censure and to decide instead of parents and educators. There's no place for them in a Republic where each individual is given the holy right to believe whatever he chooses. How it is these retarded "censors" are allowed to even try to impose their beliefs on the rest of society?
... y Dios vio que Linux era bueno... Genesis 99.666
Sorry, I have nothing else to say. It was a lame attempt to be funny. I suck.
This whole age-cutoff thing is simply garbage - just like "Grand Theft Auto" itself - and sooner or later, I would imagine, we'll come to our senses and ban these games from public commerce, just like we ban child pornography and entertainment spectacles such as cock fighting and dwarf throwing.
Even dwarf throwing is illegal now?sig under construction...
Any takers?
No, You can have it.
Fuck this the Politically Correctness bullshit!! If we listened to every whining hippie, we'd have a Disney society of bland, boring, homogenous mediocric neutralness. Take a stand by sitting down and playing GTA. Anyways, this clammoring will help RockStar's stock and GTA sales. Nothing sells like a good controversy. I wonder what RockStar's next game will be, Virtual Porn Star or Drugdealers Inc, maybe Mob Boss - Racket Accounting: The Exciting World of Exhortion? Is it art, entertainment, or both? Art supposedly allows for the rendering and imaginging of things/ideas that are not legal, moral, or even physically possible. Can art go too far? Can games go too far? If s/Hatian/French/g, I bet no one would complain, but then that's silly and P.C.
These P.C. fuckers need to get overthemselves!
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Looking for a copy. Heck, I've been meaning to get it for about a year or so now (I'm not a huge console fan) and they dropped the price to $30. The guy running the electronics (I'm in there twice a week at least since I work evening shift, and the guy and I are cordial) told me that he had some on Saturday but they seem to have disappeared. He was expecting more in, but republished ones with the offending language edited. I asked him if they were actively pulled, and he told me that they weren't, as he'd be the one that would be pulling them. Looks like Wal-Mart isn't too flipped out about it. He also told me that the "protest" was nothing to write home about.
Eat recycled food - it's good for the environment, and OK for you.
What gives you the right, to impede my right to choice? Your speach is not squelched, nor should your try to squelch the speach rights of the developers of this game. You will lose, you will waste tax payers money, you should be sued for doing this.
Don't Vote for Norm Dicks! http://www.nodicks2008.com Another nutless dirtbag that voted for the FISA bill!
didnt they already remove that line from all new copies of the game?
Tux blasting clippy and balmer and such, i remember seeing something about it on here several months ago.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
...then dont buy it. It has occured to me that many of these complaints come from people that would never buy the game. Which is good, if the game doesnt appeal to your tastes then the best solution is not to purchase the game.
----- Friends, l33tists, l4m3z0rs! Lend me thy keyboards.
ever see "Bowling for Coumbine"?
I think the best game and the peacefully war game I ever play is Metal Gear Solid series. this game encourage you not to kill and sneaking instead of killing your enemy. Even the boss, you can defeat with just stunning them.
./me --G--
"A foreigner judging the United States by its films would think Americans spend more time running from exploding fireballs than having sex."
-Elvis Mitchell, in the New York Times
"FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
I'm am continually amazed that so called "civil rights" groups frequently have little respect for any part of the US Bill of Rights except for section one of the fourteenth amendment.
To: cbyron@nypost.com
:you're in the minority if you'd r
Subject: Vice City
From: me
Mr. Byron,
It was with bewilderment and sadness that I read your article "Give Back Take-Two" [1]. It seems to me that your opinion is that somehow consenting adults looking for entertainment are unfit to choose how they busy themselves. As if they are still children on their mothers' apron-strings, you presume to tell them that Grand Theft Auto: Vice City is somehow bad for them, that playing a video game---pushing buttons and reacting to pixels on their television---is akin to the "glorification of mass murder."
You compare GTA:VC to child pornography, cock fighting, and dwarf throwing. Your comparison falls short, however, because you fail to acknowledge the real reason for banning kiddie porn et al: they _victimize_. A child can't give consent to sexual acts, so any such acts are illegal. Cock fighting is cruel to the animals involved. Dwarf throwing is presumably only illegal in the case that the dwarf doesn't want to participate---after all, if a guy asks me to throw him across the room, I'm fairly certain I can comply without running afoul of the law. Unlike child pornography, cock fighting, and dwarf throwing, playing GTA:VC is simply a matter of sitting in my living room pushing some buttons.
You employ a classic argument in your tirade against GTA:VC: "violent video games cause violent behavior." Having done research in the primary literature on studies attempting to link violent video games to violent behavior, I can assure you (or, if you'd prefer, provide a bibliography that supports my claims) that there is no conclusive scientific answer to the question of whether violent video games are causally linked to violent behavior. Your anecdotal evidence---the two teens playing a video game and then using real guns to shoot at real people---doesn't pass muster. Finding causality in a case like this is a question of analyzing massive amounts of data, and unfortunately the two Tennessee teens are by themselves statistically insignificant.
Another claim in your article is that an age limit is unenforceable and useless. First of all, I have my doubts that you can substantiate the claim that such a limit is unenforceable, which is presumably why you appeal to the tired litany, "everyone knows it." I can remember quite vividly being refused video games when I was 16 years old, and as far as I know every store at which I have ever purchased video games enforces the age limits. Hell, when I shave I'm still often asked for my ID when purchasing a mature video game.
Your other claim, that the age limit is useless, is a very curious one. Mr. Byron, do you drink alcohol? If not this might be unfamiliar territory, but otherwise consider that once someone in the US turns 21 they suddenly become able to drink alcohol legally. Is this a statement of some intangible quality possessed by those over 21 years of age? Of course not---it's a somewhat arbitrary distinction made in the name of codifying the requirement that those who drink alcohol must be mature enough to handle it. In the same way, requiring those who purchase GTA:VC to be 17 years old is a way of admitting that those under 17 might not be mature enough to handle it---or, at the very least, that it might make their parents uncomfortable. In effect, by rating the game "M for Mature," Rock Star is putting control where it should be---in the hands of people mature enough to make decisions for themselves and/or their children.
Mr. Byron, you actually go so far as to claim that pushing buttons on a controller in response to pixels on a television screen is "10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to that little boy." Well, either everyone has started thinking Jacko is innocent, or you're seriously confused. As far as I can tell, non-consentual sodomy with someone who's under age beats brainless button-mashing hands down. Consider it this way, Mr. Byron
I am still stunned that some people fail to make the difference between reality and games.
I happen to enjoy playing GTA3 and violent games in general. Fourtunatly, I have been able to make the crucial difference between games and realty since the age 6 ( Hey! I can't remember exactly when but I'm sure that I understood that Mario wasn't real the first time I played Nintendo ;). However, what scares me is that adults ( theoredicaly mature humans ) fail to see the difference or are too lazy to properly supervise their children, and find nothing better than to blame games and tv.
To me, they are the ones making the damage to society since they do not even care or take the time to raise their kids.
What kind of society do you build with kids that didn't have adequate parenting?
Open your eyes. Take your responsabilities, but please don't blame it on everything else.
I have written this message as a reply to all the people blaming video games and tv. I think it would be a good idea to forward it to the author of the article.
mistake. They're troubling the wrong people. It is all an issue on the Rating system.
If they sue, then the rating system is just a few words written on a piece of paper and nothing more. They should bring into confidence, software retailers and distributers. Maybe one will have to show an ID to prove their age before being able to buy the game, but its better than not getting the game at all. If we can do that for beer, we can do that for our games.
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
Mr. Byron,
... Haitians" quote and it leads me to wonder how reliable the rest of your reports are and whether you have even played the game. You cite recent allegations against Michael Jackson of child molestation to be preferable behavior to having sex with a willing prostitute or killing a ruthless gangster which makes me wonder how your moral code works and if you were being too off-handed or absurd. The only thing that seemed factual or warranted in your piece for investors was about the pending SEC investigation. It is something to watch with concern, but moralizing and going beyond notifying unknowing parties that some object to the content of Take-Two's video games seems out of place. Perhaps I have been too hard on you and you needed to meet a word count or were just sitting too high atop your perch that day, but a severe clash of ideas has motivated me to write this. If those that would use the court to censor a group engaging in free speech while making a quick buck for some attorneys succeed, then Shakespeare's "kill all the lawyers" quote starts to feel more rational than intended. Alas, that will probably be stricken from the work by then anyway.
Though I fear my effort will be wasted I must take issue with your piece on the New York Post website entitled, "Give Back Take-Two". For several years, I have enjoyed the guilty pleasures offered to me by playing a fictitious character in the Grand Theft Auto genre of games. I have yet to sell drugs, kill everyday people on the street or have sex with prostitutes in real life. Just as the actor playing a villain is allowed to indulge his baser instincts while playing a part on stage, so too have I enjoyed playing my part using a controller on my living room's virtual stage. I use this to counter your assertion that it was merely playing a video game that drove two misguided youths to kill passing motorists. It was the only real correlation you drew between the game and possible ill effects on society. You cite 5 million copies sold and yet only one incidence of wrong doing in possible connection with the game. I would venture to say there would be a bigger case against many works of classic literature and their connection to ill behavior than that. The fact is young people that are disturbed will tend to behave that way. Making a case for attacking youth depression, abuse or pathology more vigorously would be fairer than passing the blame to a modern form of art and performance. Instead, you further the cause of those who would deify all that is pretend. I doubt very many of our fathers who played cops and robbers in the school yard went home with the notion that it was okay to steal or kill cops. Today the imagery is a bit more convincing and the "bang-bang" noises truer to the ear, but the game remains the same. If you indeed lean in favor of disposing with all that could possibly led someone astray you have your work cut out for you. Only when all art, literature, writing (except elitist pseudo-journalism), music and any other form of performance someone might find objectionable is eliminated will the world be safe enough for you? If you are among that sort then I am glad you tend to rank in the minority for now. Speaking of minorities, I think it would also be fitting to mention that anyone that plays GTA will find that it tends to attack all creeds, races and societal sub-types equally and not just Haitians. You make no effort to mention this beyond the "Kill
Sincerely,
Sean Thompson
This post is in the anti-slash DB. Previously posted at least once before in this September discussion on GTA lawsuits. Even too lazy to change the sig.
A system?
I am sitting in Norway right now where in their version of a Sears catalog they also sell dildos, where last night on broadcast TV there was all sorts of T&A- including an unedited broadcase of Hugh Heffners 50th birthday party.
It seems they have their priorities in line here, where the sexual stuff is permitted, but the violence is not.
For some reason, the US does not make much of a distinction between sex and violence... it is all lumped together- and I do not think that is very healthy. It sends a mixed message that somehow it is all bad. For whatever reasons, parents seem more comfortable selling violence rather than sex, to minors. I have friends who took their 12 year old son to see the movie Kill Bill- because it did not have any nudity or sex in it. If you have not seen the movie it is the most violent film ever?
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
va lairIE/robbIE are gooned wons to write about that?
we'll know for ?sure? after lairIE/robbIE/the won-eyed girl answer yOUR questions in an upcoming ask/knot interview. remember, keep it simple?
the top won question will be answered buy them, as soon as their scriptdead ?pr? ?firm? hypenosys LIEforms, & indictable shysters, have re.constructed it to fit the phonIE answer?
beat to a bloody pulp the families of anyone using Linux
I think many of us linux users are already used to being beaten to a pulp. It was called high school. In a game it would be slightly more amusing than real life, go for it.
You might want to note that while this not only restricts kids from getting the game, an all out ban would restrict adults as well. It's not just stopping the kids from playing the game, it's restricting the parents too (and those without kids).
Maybe somebody can answer me this one.
Does everybody in america need a cause?
Can't you just get up, go to work, come home, relax, spend time with family, and go to sleep?
Believe it or not you do not need a purpose to live, you just need to enjoy YOUR life; let others go about their respective ways
Insanity
Error 407 - No creative sig found
If the Ku Klux Klan has the "right" to march down Skokie (a Chicago suburb that is home to many Holocaust survivors), then Take Two has the "right" to make Grand Theft Auto.
I don't what this game promotes and how it influences some people, but America was created with free speech in mind. Unfortunately, people with poor taste are also allowed free speech.
But then, I'm sure the British thought Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, and the mighty John Hancock had poor taste and poisonous words that should be silenced.
Besides, people still make the desicion to act violently.
I don't what this game promotes and how it influences some people, but America was created with free speech in mind. Unfortunately, people with poor taste are also allowed free speech.
Oops. I don't like what this game promotes and how it influences some people, but America was created with free speech in mind. Unfortunately, people with poor taste are also allowed free speech.
I'm the only one that remembers all the media exposure that Carmageddon got back then?... and I remember they said they were going to ban that game too... It never happened.
:: Andrea
Anime Wallpapers
By helping to establish recognized boundries and promoting that absolute separation (Labels like Haitains instead of just American or HUMAN) you are in fact promoting bigotry and maybe even racism. But this is not about our ignorance as a species, but rather a small group of crybabies who cannot recognize this is a fucking game. Sure, for the most part parents these days are not parents, failed parents, but more accurately they are genetic donors providing very minor supervision to maybe just barely help kids avoid major accidents. Because most people have decided that schools, society, TV, movies, games, and cartoons should instill moral values and lifetime behavioral habits in their children does not mean everybody should suffer. If you are offended by the game for whatever reason, sell the game or don't buy it.
If you think this will "force" or "influcene" kids and/or people to act upon a giant wad of binary to make it a reality then maybe you should try addressing the real problem. Don't try to make the game disappear..it won't stupid, it's been released and copies will be traded, sold, and burned. How much more could be accomplished with a crusade to make parents parent again? How much could be accomplished by removing labels that force distinctions and differences? How about getting somebody mostly honest into a political office that comes from the working class that knows what reality is like living like %98 of how most Americans do? Best yet work on finding a way to help better things so both parents do not have to work to afford to survive in their hovel and just barely make it.
This suit is a waste of time and resources that should be used to put vermin where they belong, not cater to a cadre of narrow sighted whiners. Don't make the game go away, make the problem go away.
-1 Overrated (Too many big words for me to comprehend)
For all of you that love the GTA series of games. Rockstar has a new one out. MANHUNT. It's a REALLY gory game. The language, racisim, violence, etc. are far, far, far beyond the GTA games. You are a killer who is being filmed 8mm style throughout the game. And the objective is to get the higest * rating, by the best style killing. Oh, and you can't rent it, so find some sicko who already has it, like me, and try it out. I highly reccommend it, for sheer shock value if nothing less.
how about True Crimes: Streets of LA.
that game is way more graphic then GTA. makes GTA look like sesame street.
Nope, sorry, that's not quite right. I agree that people are getting too damn politically correct, but that symptom is reflected in the Haitians comment in the game (which I have yet to play; I'd better grab my copy of the value pack before it gets yanked off the shelves), not in the inability to tell fantasy from reality.
The fantasy/reality confusion is symptomatic of something even more troubling: a lack of both
Critical thinking and comprehension are big things. A good school will teach you how to think, and from there everything falls into place. A bad school will teach you what to think, and people will either sink or swim in the real world depending on what they learn of the thinking and understanding process itself.
There are a lot of bad thinkers out there. They're the sort of people who will read a passage of text, fail to comprehend its deeper meaning, pick out a few keywords, appearantly string them together randomly to form their own concept, and act as if they just read that.
(You may wonder what sort of message people get from practically any medium. You may even become afraid to produce any such works yourself for fear of being critically misinterpreted. Thus, free speech is such a fragile concept that even stupidity can have chilling effects on it.)
In the case of GTA, the message of the game would seem to be "gang warfare is bad." (Remember, I haven't played it yet.) But the way it's told in game is rather convoluted, so people are seeing the "gang warfare" aspect and completely blanking on the "is bad" part.
It greatly troubles me that we have a government full of people that either (a) are these types or (b) pander to these types to garner support.
Morality is something I think I should cover in another steaming load of screed. But I'll say now: it doesn't mean "religious".
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
Why did they bother to leave Haiti if what they really want is tribal-style dictatorial control over other people's behavior?
Oh yeah - because there is abundance and prosperity here and none in Haiti.
Gee, do you think that has something to do with culture?
There is no need to create another Haiti in America. "The Haitians" should just float on back if the freedom is too much for them.
I am of the sincere hope that GTA4 will feature nothing *but* Haitians (except for the player character, who should be a European-American). Perhaps it could take place in Haiti?
OK I swear the next time we'll use only Laplander gangs and Orcs and shit. Those fat weird comic book store guy advocacy groups have nowhere near the fucking Voodoo Mojo as the Hatian drug lords of Miami which do in fact constitute a big part of crime there.
If Hatian community groups don't like the bad press they get then they should fix their own shit instead of suing the messenger.
Grow a fucking skin, losers.
How did this ever get so far?
When was the last time you heard of a lawsuit to ban R-rated movies from stores or theatres?
Why then, isn't this the same issue. If a game is rated Mature or Adults-Only, then make sure it isn't being sold to minors, and there's no problem.
This seems like the same old case of people being afraid of any change. Since most people watch movies, they've accepted the ratings system. These people suing have probably never played a game in their life, and think that, if an adult plays this game once, they will be hypnotized, and forced to act out violence (only against Hatians of course).
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Except in the furtherence of Marxist ideology.Hence speech codes on campus,accusations of"hate speech","equal time" provisions to muzzle talk radio,book banning-Huckleberry Finn in schools for example ad infinitum.
The difference is that you /watch/ Scarface, but you /participate in/ Vice City.
Do you remember those books you read in grade school where you could choose the plot of the book by following the instructions at the bottom of a page and turning to the given page? For example, "To kill the Haitians, turn to page 23. To let the Haitians live, turn to page 40." Would this, in your opinion, be free speech? Does the medium play a role here? What level of interactivity is considered "dangerous"?
Sounds to me just like the thought police on yet another rampage.
Wow, at least somebody got the joke.
Thanks man, I have had my faith in humanity restored.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Everytime someone links to the "facts"of this case it shows the same thing.The woman spilled coffee on herself and tried to hold MacDonalds responsible.
Yes their coffee used to be HOT it was supposed to be -that way it would be still hot when purchased to go.MacDonalds did nothing wrong and her lawyer made out like a bandit.And the rest of us?Higher costs from increases in business insurance premiums and lukewarm coffee mislabeled Caution HOT Caliente!
And its cold fuck her fuck her lawyer fuck the courts.
Much like movies Games need a Legaly enforcable rating system. So just as a obsceen pronagaphic movie cant be sold to kids nor should Video games with simaler content.. The major problem is there is *not* a legaly enforcable system in place.. so a kid can go rent or buy without his parents consecnt games that are not ment for him..
The parents have been crippled by societys laws and cluless bleeding hearts. I think its time that the Law game the parents some support..
and having a father who has spent about 40 out of 56 years in Florida, and pretending people wouldn't get upset by racism, the Haitian stereotype is pretty damn funny.
With my father it has always been a thing to make fun of the racism, rather than either Haitians in relation to whites or whites in relation to Haitians. There are many Haitians who feel like they are owed whatever you have because they have less. And there are white people who won't give Haitians a fair chance.
But then again, my father's an easygoing guy and doesn't get insulted by much. GTA has always been racist, ageist, sexist, etc. And so I don't know where Haitians get off thinking it's targeting them. I mean, poor Italians. Poor Mexicans. Poor Rednecks. Poor Japanese. If the ideas presented in GTA mattered, we'd kind of be in deep shit.
I'm not trying to piss people off here, but I'm aware I may be modded down. I have two pretty good Haitian jokes that I'm not going to tell.
Cheers.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Now get back to work!!!
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Pot actually makes you think a lot. Only it's kind of non-linear and generally has to do with how to acquire cookies.
In all seriousness though, I have had times in my life where pot has much stimulated me. But it often does do too much to deaden the mind. Depends on what's going on in my life. I'm not smoking now (and no, I don't mean just this instant).
Please stop stalking me, bro.
DarthWiggle done sed:
>>A game is absolutely not freedom of speech. And I'm a liberal.
----
Well, this kind of puts you in the same boat as Gore (the Missus) and Lieberman. Liberals for censorship. What a novel idea.
I may be WRONG in big capital letters, but I've seen more republican capitalist swine be for freedom of speech than liberals. It's because liberals feel much more obligated to protect people from the evils of the universe.
I'm not saying anything about your views on censorship, partly because I think you said it all yourself, but liberals are not for freedom. They are for everyone being protected from unpleasant experience.
Especially California liberals. God, I hate California.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
GTA is a game that is a parody of television shows. In it, and in past versions, we've seen Krishnas run over, cops shot, Italians, Japanese, Cubans, amongst others, in nothing more than stereotypical gangster roles. AND YOU DON'T HERE THEM COMPLAINING! BECAUSE ITS ONLY A GAME!
Take away my vice city, and maybe I'll have to get all that angst out killing real haitians instead.
You're only saying that because you're a lawer who makes money on silly lawsuits like this.
The rest of us see this lawsuit for what it is - a pathetic attempt to extort money.
The programmers aren't worried about this, no... but the business people funding the game take this very seriously. Any company that wouldn't is either too naive or inexperienced to have the foresight.
Along the same lines, did you know that the car manufacturers have a dollar amount that they place on human life? So, when they look at how many people are likely to die in a given model of car produced, they figure out if they can still make a profit on it. The Ford Pinto is a classic example of this. Again, the anticipation of lawsuits and settlements is just the "cost of doing business".
Ok, I'll toss out one more example... remember Fisher-Price's Little People? The old wood ones, not the new plastic ones. They were just the right size to get lodged in a toddler's throat. And Sally (the girl with the yellow hair and the piggytails) was the perfect killing machine; once her head slipped down the esophogus, any attempt to pull her out would cause those two piggytails to barb into the esophageal wall. Kids died from these toys, yes, and they sued and won against FP, but the really sad part is that FP continued to produce them because they were wildly successful, and the estimated number of deaths was simply the "cost of doing business".
Yes, it's a cold, cruel world out there....
no spoon.
And the glass is neither half full nor half empty. It is entirely empty.
I see the point in trying to defend a game from being banned using a pretty weak and irrational excuse (the "haitians" are a gang just like the "cubans" and in every war, people refer to the enemies, allies by their nationalities, didnt USA fought the "germans" in WW2? what they are going to do sue all WW2 games?), anyway, WHO CARES? SO what, by the time they ban GTA3, GTA4 will be out! I mean the game has been out for what? 1-2 years? is even on the xbox now! everybody who wanted to buy GTA has buyed it by now. Besides this lawsuit (as many others) have no legal grounds (1st ammendment) all the lawsuits that GTA has gathered (guncraze kids, and the graffiti "artist") have failed so far and only served to make the game even MORE popular.
But of course, CNN and the media is the big winner here, they get more uninformed people into believing games are the equivalent of satan in a box. And keeping players as socially unfit geeks, thanks!
People throw out "think for yourself" when what they often mean is "listen to me -- disagree with the view I am railing against".
A good test of the sincerity of that sentiment is when you choose to agree with whomever it is you are supposed to be thinking for yourself about. Do the people screaming "think for yourself" acknowledge this or blow you off as some sort of mindless hack?
Case in point: most of the comments modded up above this one (I haven't read further below yet) are ones that blast any notion that GTA might have crossed the line with the "Kill the Haitians" comment, even to the point of factual inaccuracies about what the responsibilities of the courts are and what they are capable of doing (courts do not MAKE laws!). There are even responses to other posts that, from what is written in those responses, indicate the reference post was in favor of the legal action being taken. However, the pro-legal-action posts haven't been modded up.
I guess by agreeing they aren't thinking for themselves and, therefore, aren't all that interesting or insightful.
Has America gotten so bad that when one group is offended it takes precedence over any other group that might be offended. If you don't like the freedom of speech that has been afforded to you in the US then perhaps you should go back to Haiti.
This is how society in America works. The first amendment should come in to play here. I hope Rockstar sends a clear message on this one and the offended Haitians need to grow up or swim back to their little island.
I have read this thread, and I have to say it is downright commical. You people don't even know who to blame. You've got the "liberals" yelling about the Bush admin and the Christian Right, and you have the "conservatives" yelling about Polical Correctness and not being able to believe what you want.
Seriously, read this whole thing.
Get this, BOTH of the groups are to blame. The "liberals" teach our children that is wrong to pre-judge, guns are evil, and censorship is *good* if the censored speech is hateful or angry. "Conservatives" tell our kids that drugs are evil, god is where all morality comes from, and anything that doesn't agree should be censored.
Guess what? There isn't a single true Liberal among you! You have just Tree Huggers and God Freaks trying to tell us what to do, regardless of what is allowed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights! Oh, thats another thing - the Bill of Rights, while technically an addendum to the Constitution is NOT the Constitution! The Bill of Rights is where your freedom comes from. The Founding Fathers were specifically vague on what Free Speech covers. They weren't stupid people, you know. Free Speech was obviously meant to mean anything that conveys thought, feelings, and ideas from one person or group of people to another. It is meant to be vague so that ALL speech, no matter the form, no matter the technology, would be protected from idiots like the "speech is just that - speech" group that wants to puff its chest up. That goes for you idiots that think there should be restrictions on hateful or harmful speech, as well.
Speech of any kind is protected because there should never be any government that does not allow the free flow of ideas, no matter what form that expression takes.
A game called Ethnic Cleansing was recently named the most offensive game in history. The objective is to kill as many minorities as possible. Since this is legal, I doubt GTA can be banned.
In other words, we called them at 5pm on New Years Eve, and no one was in the office. But we'd rather make it sound like they have something to hide so they are avoiding us.
Now, in this case, neither party returned a call, so at least this line isn't biased towards one end or another, but all to often the newspaper does things like "So and so demonstrators say that big corporation X has contracted with Satan to increase its bottom line, but representatives of corp X did not return our calls." Here, the language makes it sound as if it was a conscious effort on the company's part to avoid the call, when in most cases, due to publishing deadlines, the reporter can only wait a few hours at most for a call back, and even then the call was probably placed near or after the end of business. You try reaching Bill Gates at 4pm Friday afternoon for a Saturday story that has to be ready for printing by 10pm to make the presses. Heck, even if the company has a PR dept. they are often not allowed to make any comment until it has been reviewed by a legal team. These things take time, and any "attempt" to call that provides the call's recipient less than 1 full business day to respond should not even be mentioned, unless the reporter would like to be accurate and state "there was insufficient time for this reporter to contact a representative of comp X before wiring this story." But you won't ever see that, because that admits sloppy reporting, which is all to prevalent anymore.
Oh, was that my outside voice?
Yes obviously the guns are to blame, not the violent video
games! It's all the inanimate objects fault. Or maybe these
teenage boys who are old enough to make their own
decisions are deviant homicidal miscriants that need to be
locked up until they're 35. (and given an exceptional prison
education in the mean time)
It's no problem to kill you.
(note for mods who don't get it, play the game)
-no broken link
I don't see what the big deal is... The line that caused all the controversy, "Kill all the Haitians!", is referring to a gang called "The Haitians", not to an ethnic group. Sure they're all Haitian but that's how they got their name. On that mission you don't just go killing anyone and everyone in the Haitian neighborhood, you kill the gang members wearing the gang colors. It's not about killing a racial group, it's about killing the rivals of another gang.
You realize that before they made a fuss, people would have (maybe) noticed the line about the Hatians and had a small chuckle or two before going about their buisness in the game. NOW, they're going to find that line and think "Yeah, damn Hatians trying to ruin a perfectly good game because they have no sense of humor".
Way to be devisive and make sure you're always treated differently than everyone else guys. Equality means equal, as in equal rights AND equal rights to be ridiculed. If you can take the latter, you don't deserve the former.
I play that game all the time, I kill everyone in it sometimes... Drive over people in my car, fly off my motorcycle at about 100, activate a cheat code and heal myself and drop my wanted level after using the rocket launcher to blow up police choppers and stealing tanks..
Do I do all the in real life? HELL NO! It's called fantasy and reality.... You don't hear any hookers complaining cause they're portrayed in it? Do you see the white's complaining cause they're made out to be either really rich and snotty or those poor bums passing by...
Infact, the white's are the only ones in the game not in a gang.... I feel left out, and I should sue for being reverse discriminated anti-racist portrayed in a game w/o my consent..
The problem isn't GTA but rather the parents who allow their kids to play this game. I've got a little story that may interest some of you. Before I became totally fed up with the state sponsored BHRS psychological services in Pennsylvania, I worked with children and their families doing therapy and consulting with respect to parenting skills and behavioral issues. Some of the children I worked with were diagnosed with ADHD and ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). About a half dozen of these children were exceptionally violent. Each of these six children had been previously hospitalized or placed in the juvenile justice system because they regularly assaulted others. At home, each of these children had access to GTA and played it regularly. In every case, I sat down with the family and outlined why it was a bad idea for Tommy/Suzy to play GTA. I sat the parents down with the child and had them watch the child play GTA. After watching their son/daughter shoot cops, steal cars, and pick up prostitutes, the parents, without exception, still decided not to take this game away from their child. Why? Because in each and every case the parents had been corrupted by the social security disability benefits their child was receiving. These parents knew that they stood to lose some $900.00 per month per child, once their child responded to treatment and no longer required services. Therefore, these parents did everything in their power to make sure their children didn't respond to treatment. The following is off-topic as hell, but this whole situation pisses me off so much I don't care anymore. Just for those of you who are interested, let me me break down for you the approximate total yearly cost of services for one family including a mother, live-in boyfriend, and three children diagnosed with ADHD/ODD. Standard welfare package: a. Basic Welfare Assistance: ~$900 per month, $10800 per year b. Foodstamps: ~$200 per month, $2400 per year c. Section 8 Housing Assistance for a mother and three children: ~$700 per month $8400 per year d. Basic medical insurance for three children and mother: ~$1000 per month, $12,000 per year. Total standard welfare costs for this family (not including administrative overhead): ~$2800 per month, ~$33,600 per year The factor in the costs of BHRS (wraparound) services for each child, figuring 2 hours Behavior Specialist Consultant (BSC) per week at $49.00 per hour, 3 hours Mobile therapy (MT) per week at $49.00 per hour, and 20 hours of Therapeutic Support Staff (TSS) per week at $22.50 per hour (hourly costs billed to the Commonwealth of PA NOT how much each counselor makes per hour). For each child this works out to cost: ((49*2)+(49*3)+(22.5*20))*52= $695 per week $3012 per month, and $36140 per year per child. For three ADHD children this works out to be $108420 and does not include cost of psychological assessments (every three months), monthly medication checks with a psychiatrist, and the cost of psychotropic medications. These additional services and medications are not inexpensive, figure another ~$100,000 per year. Factor in social security disability benefits for three children at ~$900 per month: per child: ~$2700 per month, ~$32400 per year. Total cost to taxpayers of services for one family (mother, boyfriend, three children) on welfare: $33,600+108,000+$100,000+$32400 = approximately $270,000 per year, per family. This makes me sick. I hope it made you sick too.
Put down your Mountain Dew, take off your spectacles, and go outside for some fresh air. Don't worry, you can use the cliched "beat you down with my enormous brain" routine on everyone later.
Save your brilliance and your keystrokes for things that matter. And yes, in this regard, I am calling you black.
- The pot
Wasn't that a fighting game with dinosaurs and gorillas? Who the hell could be offended by that?
Okay, I remember you could eat little primitive people to get health during the fight, but still.
The enemies of Democracy are
People emigrate here to take advantage of the REALITY of America - existing freedom, better economies, lifestyle, etc. - but they refuse to leave their cultural baggage behind in service of the IDEA of America.
This is why public schools must be made to conform to strict guidelines of language and curriculum. In the past, America had immigrants with the same problems - but they couldn't reverse the idea of America in their lifetimes, and their children grew up embracing it. These days, children of immigrants are just as likely to go to a school where their parents' native language is spoken and where the curriculum is centered around the deeds and ideas of the people of whatever race the immigrant is from.
We are breeding first-generation immigrants in America, and as is being demonstrated, the power of American citizenship coupled with the backwards ideas of a broken third-world nation is a powerful tool of exploit.
Hopefully the courts will nip this in the bud, but you never know. The idea of America may be forever lost with this and future generations.
I totally agree with Jackie_Chan_Fan (and Voltaire). If we can't all agree on what is comfortable, happy, and good; there is the next best thing - agreeing to disagree - and each do our best to respect, or at least ignore dissenting points of view. Our government has lost it's way here and in many other places, and the only thing that keeps hope alive in the hearts of the true freedom lovers (not the slavish and obedient patsys that the president calls freedom lovers) is our rumored ability to speak freely without fear of reprisal.
Once we are not aloud to say what we want / feel / mean, we are limited to half-assed lies and compromises. America is great in theory, but without real (and honest == unlimited) communication there is no chance of progress towards achieving it's [full] greatness in reality. If you support censorship in any form, I am proud to [be able to say] stay the fuck away from lawmaking. People with strong opinions who are not allowed to express them verbally just get more pissed off at being supressed, and end up expressing them in less productive / more harmful ways.
The best way to keep bathroom stalls from being written on is to put up a whiteboard.
Not because I think some kid might take the game too seriously, but that the kids that go around killing people are the ones that have Barney and Teletubbies shoved down their throat...
People need a creative and harmless outlet for their anger and frustrations. This idiotic notion that we can just swallow our anger and ignore it is ludicrous. When we get mad, we punch a pillow, go outside and yell, or rehearse in private what we _really_ want to say to someone, and then we DON'T hit that person, and DON'T yell mean and hurtful remarks at them because we got it out of our system in private.
I would much rather have my kids playing GTA and venting their pent up rage than taking a Desert Eagle to school and mowing down a dozen people because all they can see at home are Barney and the fucking Teletubbies...
Is there a limit to what actions should be allowed in a virtual reality software? Should anything that is illegal in real live be banned from virtual reality? (e.g. some politician wanted to ban certain racing games because they were depicting illegal street racing.) If virtual murder is ok, what about things like rape or child molestation? Some argue that since nobody is getting hurt in a virtual world, any theme should be allowed (with mature restriction), and ultimately it's the market that's gonna decide what is popular/acceptable.
Move back to your own country - it's obvious you have no concept of capitolism.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html
The Supreme Court isn't a part of this case. If you are referring to the obscenity exception to free speech, that was created in 1957, before any of the current members of the Court joined it.
the court shouldn't fold and create a new law throwing a few more of our rights out the window...
The federal courts, including the Supreme Court, cannot simply ban a video game of their own volition.
They would have to be following a statute. In this case, it would be the state law that the plaintiff is suing under.
The obvious reason that the defendants removed this case to federal court, is that the federal court is MORE likely to throw the case out on First Amendment grounds. In theory, a federal court will be less hesitant to throw out a state law in favor of the Federal Constitution.
You should be pissed at the state that would provide a cause of action for this. The Supreme Court has nothing to do with it yet.
It's a familiar story (Madonna, Eminem, etc.) - it just cracks me up. The more uproar you raise, the more millions you put in their pockets.
I think the way it's supposed to work in a free society is that you discuss and argue... banning works that are obscene or sophomorically offensive elevates them to a level of importance they don't deserve.
btw, I just got Vice City, it's a lot of fun... highly recommended!
I agree with Penny Arcade this is depressing, the NY post guy (I got drunk and wrote an article about some game I barely saw) "article" made it all the way to the Haitians ears who are now suing Rockstar and the case is now being followed by freaking CNN. Next thing we know the guy is getting a movie license deal.
Meanwhile the Childs Play toy-a-thon last month never got any news coverage, barely made it to some local news and they actually got it wrong.
The first time the news dumbshits came out to talk about Child's Play, though they were clearly told who was responsible for it they excised one of the people behind it. I consider this a fairly minor issue, but they're still retarded. When they came to the Children's Hospital itself for the toy delivery, there was no reporter even down there with us. A cameraman got some footage and then (I believe) ran away. I thought I heard him say "Ghosts!", but that's neither here nor there. When this footage was aired, I learned something new: that the toys had been donated by a local catholic school, and were valued at nearly a thousand dollars. Understand this. A single bin of GBA SPs was worth four thousand dollars, and we had four such bins. That's above and beyond the seventy GameCubes the other twenty carts of toys, which at our best estimates come to around $175,000. Then there was a check for twenty-seven thousand. Here's where the depression sets in.
This is a sad, sad world we live in.
why dont we just ban all games, like greece did? it soo worked for them.
It's called an anti-hero, and you find it throughout literature.
Just as we glorify 20's mobsters, we are now fascinated by the criminal element depicted in GTA.
Anyway, it only scares those who feel such a GAME might FORCE them to commit heinous acts. Get real.
Congress of late has taken the attitude that the rights guaranteed in it doesn't extend to the individual and its actual worth is somewhat less then toilet paper. The supreme court only seems to reinforce this aptitude.
Don't be surprised if the ruling on this only continues the trend.
Yes its appalling, but since you cant successfully vote the bastards out, I'm not sure what we can do..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The downside is you don't get to vote in primaries.
You can vote in a party primary as an independent. Also you can change your party affiliation at will. In Massachusetts. Gosh, I love it here.
The Bible is full of hard-core (and soft-core) porn. Oh ... wait ... Bible-bleaters DO get gov't grants these days!
"you do not need a purpose to live"
So what you are saying is to live your life like a vegetable?
"you just need to enjoy YOUR life"
Ah, so the purpose of life is to amuse yourself, but if you don't need a purpose...ouch, my head...
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
No one is a sicko for owning playing a game, you are not a gangster for owning GTA, you are no vampire for playing lok, you certainly are no small italian guy pushing mushrooms for playing mario are you?
Banning a game because it might induce criminal activity is like banning a fork because it might encourage people to eat copious amounts of food that is not good for them.
This sig no verb.
"Haitian civil rights groups in Florida have filed a lawsuit with the circuit court in Palm Beach County, which Rockstar Games has asked to be moved up to a federal court for a final decision on whether or not their game has to be banned from stores."
So a civil rights group is attacking a basic civil right, free speech. How ironic. This isn't a college campus. Censorship is wrong in this case, even if their intentions are well-meaning. People have a right to express their ideas, even if you don't like them. Censorship from the left, as well as the, right should not be tolerated in the US.
Vote for Pedro
If you knew anything about the GTA series you would know that you would need to buy the kittens and flowers -- a process that would involve hours of tedious driving around -- before giving them away.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
Not to nitpick, but it was neo-nazis in Skokie.
www.rockstargamesr gamesr ockstargamess
www.rockstargames
www.rocksta
www.rockstargames
www.rockstargames
www.
www.rockstargames
www.rockstargame
www.rockstargames
www.rockstargames
What's wrong with that?
and WHAT THE FUCK IS 'POSTERCOMMENT'? SOUNDS DUMB, LIKE TACO
You're right. Thanks for the correction.
to: cbyron@nypost.com subject: vidio games dont make murdurers i dont go out and shoot peeple or steal cars because i played grand theft auto 3: vice city. i would never hurt a person its means and really wrong. when i want to get rid of my anger, i playe vidio games or go shoot squirrels with my bbee gun. which is really fun and i did it to my cat once but my mom sad is was wrong but i didnt kill the cat so i dont know what my mom was talking about. iregardles ill probly never shoot someobody bexause of a vidio game its just wrong and i hate anybody who thinks it isnt which doesnt mean yoiu but you think i want to kill someboy just because grand theft auto 3: vice city is vionlent, but its not its just really fun shooting peepel even if they arent wrong. sorry to writr you this, io really apologize,l but i just want to show thats im a good kid when i get older im gonna join the army so i can learn to use guns real good and help my country. vote bush 2004, im not supposed to use my name in my email sorry
http://ipod.fresh27.net/
Following the logic of this GTA thing, does that mean I can be expected to attempt world domination for real by wiping the French, English, Zulus, Russians etc off the face of the planet? This is especially worrying as I'm English myself and a pacifist.
I'm expecting a pre-emptive cruise missile from the coalition down my chimney at any moment, serve me right too.
Rob
Everytime someone links to the "facts"of this case it shows the same thing.The woman spilled coffee on herself and tried to hold MacDonalds responsible.
Bzzzzt...WRONG. Since you seem to be a little "slow", let me repeat myself: she did not sue and win because she dumped coffee on herself. She sued and one because McDonalds knowingly sold a dangerous product that could give people serious burns if spilled on the customer. Which would inevitably happen to a fair number of people. And there was no reason for it to happen. Is it Ford's fault if you drive your Pinto into a parked car at 10 miles an hour? Of course not. Is it Fords fault that they put in a shitty assed gas tank that starts on fire in a minor accident? Of course it is.
"Tort reform" is nothing more than a means for companies to avoid responsibility for their negligence, incompetence and criminal actions.
From GTA3: Vice City
e /grand_thef t_auto_vice_city_script.txt
UMBERTO: Tommy!! Tommy, I love you, I love you! Let's go!
TOMMY: Go where? Can't I get a cup of coffee first?
UMBERTO: No time for coffee! Besides, I just had one.
UMBERTO: We gonna take out the Haitians.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/fil
That's the worst part about Haitians. Nowhere in the game is the phrase "Kill the Haitians!" uttered, if my memory (and this online script) serves me correctly.
Disclaimer: I just hate misinformation. I want to personally kill all the Haitians (and all their WASP laywers) responsible for the lawsuit. I want to kill all journalists responsible for all disinformation regarding the case. And, for the record, it's not the GTA games that made me so voilent. And, actually, I am not violent at all. This is speech I am engaging in, not actual violence.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
The less sensitive you are the less responsible you become.
Hate
Fear
They are as crude as hot and cold.
Hot
Cold
An amoeba can move carefully between the two.
Buy this game! Adjust your protoplasm to sensitivity : low.
Lose in life.
I just wonder how many hate crimes have been incited against Haitians since GTA:VC came out?