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This leads me to another gripe: The iPod and its ilk.

How about iPodLinux? Or gtkpod if you don't want to go the whole hog. You have plenty of choices. The hardware's cool, and there are OSS options to use it. What's your problem?

There is no public API for iPods. That's the reason why you need that horrible stinking application experience called iTunes (and a Mac or Windows XP/Vista) to manage music on an iPod. Apple specifically protects iPod music management by cryptographic means; luckily for some devices weak enough to get broken (see http://ipodlinux.org/Device_Information), but that's the opposite of a public API.

That said - if you know a description of the public unencumbered API for managing the music database on an iPod, post it's URL, and I will apologize. Until then, you're just an Apple fanboy, modded too high by other fanboys.

Linux runs on just about anything, these days, and if it doesn't, NetBSD does.

Get an ipod that can run IPodLinux, plug in one of these, and a pair of these, and you'll be ready to dodge bullets. ;-)

With the above, they can sell as many of their crippled, gimped notebooks as they want; you can use that stuff and the hacked ipod to create your own system. If you don't mind the weight, there's still this old trick, too.

Microsoft can do whatever they want. All we need to do is route around them.

Stop being afraid of them; they have no power. We can do whatever we like, and there is nothing they can do about it...for the simple reason that there are so many more of us. Microsoft are only one company.

http://ipodlinux.org/wiki/PP5002

Where, exactly, do you get your information that there is a MP3 decoder in that SoC?
Perhaps you're thinking of this PP brief? http://web.archive.org/web/20061202104706/http://www.portalplayer.com/products/documents/5002_brief_0108_Public.pdf

You're confusing (assuming this is where this rumor started) a hardware feature and the capability of the ARM core when using their (PP) SDK.

Ok, sick and tired of those who don't understand what is in a DAP:

iPods:
http://ipodlinux.org/wiki/Generations
Note they are all ARM processors with no hardware decoder.
Older ones are PortalPlayer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PortalPlayer
Newer ones are Apple labeled ARM chips
Also note on the wikipedia page how many DAPs use these chipsets.
Again, not hardware decoders.

Latest Sansas:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaE200v2
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2008/03/sandisk-sansa-fuze-disassembly.php
Note AMS SoC
http://www.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/content/download/7921/128739/version/1/file/AS3525_PB_1v0.pdf

Older Sansas:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SandiskE200HardwareComponents
Note PortalPlayer Soc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PortalPlayer

Note when you see the word "codec" when referring to a chip it is the D/A converter, not a MP3 decoding chip:
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/datasheets/UDA1380_4.pdf
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8987/

Philips:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GoGearHDD6330

Cowon:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CowonD2Info

Creative:
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2008/07/creative-zen-xfi-disassembled.php
look up the chip numbers - general purpose CPU, no hardware decoder.

Do you want me to link more?

Really? So they gave you software upgrades to go from 4G to 5G? I think not.

Those would have been significant hardware upgrades as well.

Imagine that! Video cameras more expensive than still cameras!

Incidentally, timholman, I recommend you invest in a quality still-picture digital camera if you want an economic solution for high quality digital imaging.

I'd take a look at buying one of the cheaper Canon Powershot cameras between $100 and $200 for which there exists open source firmware. For networking, you might explore whether or not the USB mechanism in the camera can be coerced into the host role (as opposed to acting as a device) which has been accomplished in similar situations for devices such as the BlackDog and many iPods with Linux installed. With USB device hosting capability in hand, you could then easily connect it to a USB Ethernet NIC for a little over $20.

With your own firmware installed, you might even do something really novel and program the camera to do something that will get the intruder's attention before snapping a photo so that they are sure to be looking right at it, giving you an excellent shot of his or her identity.

Let us know how it goes!

If it's an iPod with Linux installed, it will play music off an ext2 filesystem...

There is a Linux distro available for iPods.

You mean the Linux distro that doesn't support the iPod touch (that being one of the two machines the original article was talking about) - and thus probably doesn't support the iPhone (that being the other of the two machines the original article was talking about), either?

There is a Linux distro available for iPods.

You mean the Linux distro that doesn't support the iPod touch (that being one of the two machines the original article was talking about) - and thus probably doesn't support the iPhone (that being the other of the two machines the original article was talking about), either?

> 1) Requires iTunes.

There are 3rd party apps capable of loading music on iPods.

> 2) Doesn't work with Linux.

There are Linux apps capable of loading music on iPods.

> 3) Is laden with DRM.

Only if you purchase music from the iTunes Store, and then only if you purchase the DRMed tracks as the Store includes DRM free tracks.

> 4) Doesn't support popular codecs like OGG.

Contrary to Slashdot believe, OGG is not popular.

> 5) ONLY supports iTunes Music Store and not other, cheaper services.

iPods are able to work with Amazon's online store and any others that sell MP3s.

> 6) Doesn't allow simple drag-and-drop access to copy music.

You can drag any song you wish from the library to copy your music to the iPod or you can use the autosync feature.

> 7) Software is locked down on the device.

There is a Linux distro available for iPods.

> 8) Non-removable storage.

There are many guides on iPod drive replacement on the web.

> 9) Non-removable battery.

There are many guides on iPod battery replacement on the web.

> 10) Costs $500, much more than cheaper, more open-devices do.

Then please list any sub $499 32GB flash touch screen device that is more cheaper and more "open".

It should be noted that we've been able to run the actual music programs from NES, SNES, C64, and other games on iPods for a while now. The NSF (for NES), SPC (for SNES), and SID (for C64) files for these games are only a few tens of kilobytes each. A few GB is all that's needed to store essentially all the music from every game for all these systems!
Of course, Apple's firmware doesn't support these, but alternative firmwares like iPod Linux and Rockbox do.

it looks nothing like any other linux distro

Neither does IPodLinux or Puppy Linux, or OpenWRT, both of which are designed to run on machines with even worse specs than the XO-1. However, they have very active user communities and are able to run a lot of "mainstream" Linux software (not so much on the IPod, but you'd be surprised!).

I think the idea that if a project isn't using high-end hardware and running a "Top 5" linux distro then it's somehow alienated from the open source community is ignoring the long tradition of running Linux on unconventional platforms. The history of Linux and open source strongly suggests that it will be possible, if not trivial, to port all sorts of mainstream software to a totally new hardware platform.

Did everyone forget about iPod Lnux? Or have the majority of you guys just never heard of it? Its an open source project dedicated to running Linux on an iPod. Check it out, as it is very interesting.

The firmware on the 2nd gen iPod nano and all subsequent Nanos is encrypted. iPod Linux will never work on these devices.

Do a little research before trolling next time, thanks.

They've also made it currently impossible to use alternate OSes on the iPod by encrypting the firmware on the 2nd gen Nano and all subsequent iPods, which is a much more difficult obstacle to overcome. I'm surprised there isn't as much of an uproar about this on Slashdot.

Well then if the ipod is any indication, we should have linux running on the iphone one of these days.

Seems to me this has:

http://ipodlinux.org/

You can update from any OS that supports USB and writing to block devices (i.e, yes, Linux). See the the updating information on the iPod Linux wiki.

Indeed

For those who haven't tried it, download and install iPod Linux sometime.

Nothing else will give you such an appreciate for the time and effort Apple put into the thing.

... then what kind of computer are they using on the Klingon ships?

... then what kind of computer should I use at home?

... then can I use my iPod as a PDA?

Nor is the port to iPod linux, but it works...
http://www.ipodlinux.org/ScummVM

Damn, now if the sound only works properly...

cheerio
Ben

Unless you install Linux on your nano, you can't watch video on your nano at all....

ergo
digital music = ipod

i think the ipodlinux project would be mouch more supported
http://www.ipodlinux.org/

The Ipod is actually a small computer, and can run linux. See the IpodLinux website. So if they can tax one computer, they can tax all. How much is your new PC with a 320 gig harddrive liable for?

My point, which you obviously missed, is that your observation about the two being different classes of device is a tenuous distinction. Both devices have general-purpose CPUs, mass-storage devices, displays, and input and output ports. The nature of the I/O differs, but they are both COMPUTERS. So the law that allows DRM on one 'kind' of device and not the other 'kind', if based on device 'class', is flawed. We're not talking about a Walkman, we're talking about a device that can do this.

http://www.ipodlinux.org/Main_Page

Instead of whining about it, go get http://ipodlinux.org/ and port an already established emulator across.

for information ... the iPod DOES support OGG (iPodLinux)

Of course, as is so often the case with Linux, it only supports iPods that haven't been sold for a couple three years. Oh, and scroll down on that page - it doesn't support Ogg Vorbis. It only supports WAV, MP3, and AAC. It doesn't support DRM'd AAC files either.

My question: What the fuck is the point other than for geeks to masturbate themselves? What's so cool about crippling an obsolete player?

The only thing that would be cool is if it supported high bitrate recording, but no dice on my iPod. I suspect that it will about the same time the HURD kernel supports USB.

When you can buy mp3 players for $40 or so that you can use and load just like a USB drive, why do you need iTunes to manage loading your mp3s? ...and the ability to "sync my music library"? Please, folks. 120+GB isn't gonna fit onto a Nano.

You just answered your own question.

Yes you can drag folders onto other devices, that also lack the space to store your enitre music library. That's what makes iTunes, with a variety of smart playlists and ability to randomly load selected songs and podcasts out of a vast library, so useful. Then you don't have to do as much music management yourself.

And it still doesn't explain how the Zune is even as good as the iPod in this regard which was seemingly the original point - at least with the iPod you have alternate tools you cna use to load the thing, or even install Linux and be done with it!

Hey, just so you know, the iPod is verrrrrry easy to hack. Check out iPodLinux and RockBox, two very different hacks for the iPod. I currently use RockBox on mine, and the only thing I ever switch back to the stock firmware for is video (which is very rare). It can play many more file formats, can look much prettier, can crossfade and do replaygain, and it can play Doom! So what if it's practically impossible to move around and shoot at the same time, it's still nifty. Plus, any time I feel like there's a feature missing or something can be improved, I can open up the source code and hack around to my heart's content.

Apart from the first generation, all iPods have had the same dock connector. This supports power, USB, FireWire, audio, serial data (for remote controls) and analogue AV. The specs are available (there's a copy here, making it very easy for third parties to create docks and accessories. None of the other manufacturers have anything similar. There's nothing stopping you from building an iPod dock adaptor for your player, or getting your favourite manufacturer to include one...

However realize when you buy an Ipod, you're agreeing to use it the way Apple says you can. That means no changing it so it suddenly plays videos if it didn't before.

By using the software on the iPod's boot ROM, you are agreeing not to use or distribute the software it in a certain way. You are free to clear the boot ROM, load it with another OS, and use your hardware in any legal way you see fit.

Thanks to alternate OSes, iPods were playing video well before the video iPod was released by Apple.

when you buy an Ipod, you're agreeing to use it the way Apple says you can.

No. No. No. And also, No. What am I agreeing to? Did I sign anything? I don't think so. Well, maybe a credit card statement, but then I'm only agreeing to pay for it. That's it.

If you would so desire to use Apple's iTunes interface to interact with this device, then you have to agree with the use of iTunes' EULA.

Well to that, iTunes can kiss my f*cking ass. You don't have to use iTunes by any means. There are alternatives to iTunes. Hell, some of them even have games that don't suck.

Remember, if you buy a piece of hardware, it's not licensed to you, you're not borrowing it, and you don't have to agree to jack shit. I am sure there are some issues about writing software to circumvent such (crappy/pointless) security measures as FairPlay. But those are unimportant to the end-user. You didn't sign anything saying you wouldn't install software that would hurt Steve Jobs' feelings (well at least I didn't). Exercise your rights. This is the best piece of software for the iPod I've seen in a long time. I'm downloading as we (I) speak.

Let me start by saying that I am definitely an iPod guy. I have owned several iPods (3G, 4G, Photo, Video, Shuffle). I develop iPod compatible software and have been heavily involved in reverse engineering the iTunes database formats.

That said, the e200R and Rhapsody 4.0 actually appear to be a decent alternative to an iPod/iTMS, not to mention Microsoft's Zune. I know, I know - BestBuy and Real (along with Microsoft WMA) sound like a match made in hell, but the features posted on Wired actually sound interesting - especially "My Rhapsody Channel" (sort of like Pandora for portable music players) and "Dynamic Playlists" (same idea, but featuring new releases).

Regardless of what you think of Real, you can't argue that they are doing some innovative things here (we'll have to see on how well it is executed). And while I haven't even touched a Sansa, they are the 2nd most popular MP3 player and do get decent reviews.

I'm thinking that for people who are interested in renting music, as opposed to the $0.99 per-track iTunes model, this sounds a lot more compelling than any of the PlaysForSure alternatives. If they would just subsidize the player and sell it cheap ($99 or less) with a 1 or 2 year service commitment, I think they could do very well.

[...]Sure, you could require a password be entered on the Zune - but with what? The touch wheel? That seems pretty silly to me.[...]

While at first glance a scroll wheel would be a terrible way to input words, the people over http://www.ipodlinux.org/ have managed to create some really cool and innovative text input methods for the iPod.

For instance, the binary search method where the alphabet is split into two halves, scroll left for abc...lmn, right for opq...xyz. Once you've chosen a half, it is again split, and so on until you choose a letter (This one is my favourite, but I haven't tried them all - it's possibly quite slow). Other notable methods would be the 4-key keyboard approach where each key is assigned a subset of the alphabet (then proceeds in much the same manner as the binary search method), and scroll with prediction.

These methods actually make text input using only a scroll wheel quite painless.

Info here: http://ipodlinux.org/ For programming on the iPod: http://ipodlinux.org/IPod_Programming I've run this on my nano, I hear it runs on the mini too. I imagine you could write an app to crawl the terminal and save data to the ipod hd.

Info here: http://ipodlinux.org/ For programming on the iPod: http://ipodlinux.org/IPod_Programming I've run this on my nano, I hear it runs on the mini too. I imagine you could write an app to crawl the terminal and save data to the ipod hd.

There's always iPodLinux...

Will this thing be able to run Rockbox? Or a version of Linux, like iPodLinux? That's the only way I'd ever buy one of these, and then only if the price is really good. I won't buy a player without Ogg support.

I do have to give them credit for keeping the front of the device clear of any stupid logos or brand names. I don't see an ugly "Microsoft" logo or anything else there, just the screen and the controls. But the brown is horrid.

The robustness of this hack (update is easy as it is merely a response to a changed memory address), combined with the originality of it (catch the decrypted AAC packets as they are sent from the "decrypt" function to the "play" function (note: I make this explanation loosely) make this the most amazing hack I've seen since the ipodlinux guys (Nils Schneider, leachbj, and DavidC_) did a dump of the flash ROM by reading the memory off to a piezo transducer, recording the subsequent noise generated by the transducer, converting it back into useful information, and using that to figure out how to make Linux work on it.

1337, guys. Simply 1337.

It could play ogg. Let's start with that.

Then have it boot linux next year.

It could play ogg. Let's start with that.

Then have it boot linux next year.

Given that there is iPod Linux, then there is no need to wait. As for Ogg I am not sure that it is supported by iPod Linux, but then again with a little work is doable and there is no need to wait for an Aplle business case to add it.

..in various posts, let me summarize how the article's implication of poor ipod support is total bullshit and ipod works with linux just fine (in fact, better than with windows).

libipod ( http://libipod.sourceforge.net/ ) is the library that interacts with the database on the ipod that stores your music.

Several music players on linux like amarok ( http://amarok.kde.org/ ), rhythmbox ( http://www.gnome.org/projects/rhythmbox/ ), gtkpod ( http://www.gtkpod.org/about.html ),( http://developer.kde.org/~wheeler/juk.html ) etc have plugins/embeddings that can interact with the library seamlessly

Ipods are detected just fine by the USB mass storage driver with no probems in any modern linux distro.

Itunes can be run thru wine (though I've never tried it), and Sharpmusique
( http://nanocrew.net/software/sharpmusique/ ) can connect with itunes, buy music, download and strip off the DRM so that the files can be played anywhere.

CD-ripping and transfer to ipod can be done seamlessly in amarok (if you have lame etc installed). It's easier than in windoze thru third party rippers and itunes where there are all sorts of restrictions and issues.

Both "pc-compatible" (fat filesystem) as well as "mac-compatible" (HFS filesystem) will work equally well on any linux box coz linux has drivers for both filesystems.

Last but not least, there is ipodlinux ( http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page ), where you can install linux firmware in your ipod itself. Advantage is that you can play videos in your nano, music management is thru filesystem rather than database so just treat it as a mass storage device in any OS, and a host of other linux stuff will work on it, and you can play any music format that can be played on linux, not just mp3's (ogm,wma etc). You can even play quake on it if you want.

My nano ran just fine with my Mandrake box with no probs. Anecdotally, I had more problems with it on windoze (usb connection to it acted wierdly, though the usb bus was fine; I didn't care enough to analyze what was up).

No the question is: will it run Linux?

You can in fact dual boot an iPod to linux, I have it on my Photo Ipod:

http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page

I have a PSP, and you are correct, a PSP is way cooler... the only the the iPod has going for it at all is a harddrive at that's it, period. Otherwise, it sucks totally next to a PSP.

The PSP does have a hidden cost in the form of the memorystick you ahve to buy for it, which costs as much as a PSP itself. You will definatly want to go with the 4gb memorystick, as anything else will leave you jealous. Just shell out the bucks and expect to pay $500. But for that kind of money, you can probably get something better than a PSP. Like the Nokia 770 internet tablet, or a very slim laptop (run Mame32 on it, play the world of videos and everythign.

That's true except I can and do play non DRM'd mp3s on my ipod now. If that changes I'll reflash it with ipod linux (which does work on my nano I've tried it): http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page

Same thing for OSs if OS X gets over DRMed I'll reformat mt HD and install Ubuntu for PPC. Thankfully Dapper Drake is usable by ordinary non geek god human beings. I'm just grateful there are options now if DRM gets too onerous/

If I was going to go through the hassle and risk of an Ipod firmware upgrade, I'd greatly prefer the freedom and flexibility of something like Ipod Linux, rather than just a multi-codec jukebox platform.