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Mandrake 7.2 in Wal-Mart: A Good Idea?
The word we got last week from Bill Gardner, MacMillan's product manager for Mandrake titles, was that the boxed Mandrake 7.2 "desktop" version wasn't supposed to show up on store shelves until around November 10, but it's already out there. I've spotted copies in my local Wal-Mart, and others have emailed me to say they've seen Mandrake's new "Penguin and Star" logo on software boxes in other Wal-Marts around the U.S.
Another thing on those boxes is this quote:
"Linux users have dozens of choices; after testing the most popular ones, Mandrake... seems best for a first timer."Hey! That's me!--Robin Miller, The Washington Post, June 2000
Back in June, of course, I was talking about Mandrake 7.1, and the version I was using was the "deluxe" package that came complete with virtually every free -- as in either speech or beer -- piece of software you could possibly want to run in Linux. I installed 7.1 glitch-free on a number of desktops and laptops, set up my printing, my networking and my dialup connections with no problem, and away I went, doing anything and everything I -- or almost any home or small office computer user -- could possibly want to do in the course of the average workday. I didn't need all the packages that came with the big 7.1, not by a long shot. But it was nice to know they were there if I did need them, and when code-developing friends stopped by I had their favorite compilers and other tools handy on my machines for them to use, which is nothing more than straight-up, down-home hospitality in the social circles in which I seem to move these days.
"Complete" 7.2 comes with none of these tools. In fact, it is so stripped and bare that it offers little more functionality than Windows. Perhaps that is the point: to be as Windows-like as possible; to offer nothing more than a low-cost desktop operating system alternative for Wal-Mart shoppers who might otherwise buy Windows ME. If so, this distro is a qualified success; a new user can probably get it installed and running without a whole lot more work than it takes to do a Windows install or upgrade, and with about the same (zero) amount of command line use.
This is good.
What is not so good is that the GUI installer seems less than totally stable. Three LUG-buddies and I have now installed retail 7.2 Mandrake on a total of four desktops and three laptops, at least three times on each computer, and our results have been inconsistent -- and generally unrepeatable, in that niggling problems we had with one install didn't crop up in the next one, even on the same machine. We also found that some of the things new users might think the installer will let them do -- like back up a step or two in the installation process -- are bad ideas. Indeed, one thing we learned early in our testing was that if we had any problem at all with an installation attempt, it was best to give up, shut down, and start over from scratch.
Our attempts to update previous Mandrake installations using the "upgrade" option presented in a handy dialog box were total failures. Perhaps this feature looked good in Mandrake's labs and caused no problems for MacMillan's quality assurance people, but we couldn't get it to work reliably.
The funny thing is, the downloadable version of Mandrake 7.2 that has been available since last weekend gave us no major problems with either raw installs or upgrades, and as long as we stuck to clicking "okay" on the defaults, the installation process was just as simple as with the retail version -- and we got a lot more usefulness for our efforts. Like Pine, and through Pine, Pico, the simplest and most basic text editor around for fast script or shell modification. Yes, I know the average Wal-Mart Linux buyer probably won't do a whole lot of CLI work, if any, but the second that theoretical person calls for help from a Linux-knowing friend or neighbor, he's going to hear, "Where's Pico? Or Emacs?" (At least vi is there, which is going to warm some hearts even while it leaves others a bit cold.)
When compared with Windows for stability and overall utility, there is no question that the retail "desktop" version of Mandrake 7.2 is a winner; it comes with and automatically installs StarOffice and other packages that will make Windows users feel right at home, including a whole stack of cool little games. But not all of these packages install on their own if you select the "normal" install. For some reason, the only way to get most of the included packages onto your hard drive during the installation is to use the "custom" option instead of the "complete" option, which doesn't seem to make much sense. (The official Mandrake justification for this is that Mandrake adjusts to available hard drive space and root partition size, but I found the same glitch even on a 30 GB hard drive with a 4 GB / partition, which ought to be more than enough space for every piece of user-level Linux software you could ever want to own.)
The only important thing (for an ordinary user) the boxed set included that we didn't find in the downloadable version was StarOffice -- because it isn't GPL-licensed, as is every single package included in the download. I had a copy around (on my 7.1 CD set), and almost every LUG probably has StarOffice CDs hidden away somewhere. If not, it can be downloaded from many mirror sites, and say what you will about StarOffoce, it is one of the easiest pieces of Linux software to install that has ever been released, so the fact that it isn't included in the Mandrake download is not a major inconvenience.
But one thing the boxed set did lack was KDE 2.0; the version it came with, no matter what the manual said, was one of the last prerelease betas, not the real thing. I don't know if this made much difference; I detected no flaws that affected my work in any way, but it still left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
There are a number of other silly little problems in both boxed and downloadable 7.2. One is with DrakSync, a GUI wrapper for rsync that allows point-and-click updating of files or directories between two computers, in my case the desktop I use at home and the laptop I carry when traveling. I could not get DrakSync to work. Steve Killen, one of the freshmeat appindex maintainers, couldn't get it to work. All-around Linux stud Nick Kosten couldn't get it to work. Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah got it working after several tries, and claimed that he did nothing that we couldn't have done on our own. Perhaps this is true; with better onscreen instructions and a useful help file or man page, neither of which was provided, we probably would have had no problems.
Personally, I believe that including broken, incomplete or badly documented software in a commercial distro is wrong, even if you are rushing to meet a contract shipping deadline set by a retail giant like Wal-Mart. Like a Web site with broken links, it makes you wonder about the reliability of the rest of what you get. A contributed package that doesn't work quite right might be marginally acceptable, but a utility that has the company's name on it, and supposedly has the company's reputation behind it? It should work without problems, especially if it is a GUI utility aimed at simpleminded point/click users (like me).
CUPS, the Common Unix Printing System, was perhaps the greatest frustration. The only reason it works on my network at all is because Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah sat here, in my home, and messed with it for several hours. And he had to call headquarters to get help. Without this level of support (which is only available to people who are quoted on the product box), I doubt that a typical user-level person would be able to configure CUPS across a network that runs on a server that also functions as a 'net gateway, which is a common home or small office network configuration. This may not be a big deal for a Wal-Mart shopper who only has one computer, but more and more of my neighbors have multiple computers in their households -- and this is in a blue-collar trailer park, not an upscale housing development, where multicomputer households are probably even more common than they are in my humble neighborhood.
The largest benefits Mandrake 7.2 offers over 7.1 at this point are KDE2 and the lovely KOffice. It also has more security options -- probably the widest range available to point and click Linux users -- a bunch of cool new games, and default 3-D acceleration support, something Chmouel says is currently offered by no other commercial Linux distribution.
If you are using a standalone computer (or don't need network printing), and you are eager to play with these new features -- and to get one of the prettiest bootup sequences you ever saw -- you may want to install 7.2 in its present state.
Otherwise, you'd be better off waiting until a more mature version is available for download. And if you prefer to get your software on CDs in factory-packed boxes, you will want to wait -- not long, Chmouel says -- until an updated version of the current 7.2 or the about-to-be-released "Power Pack Deluxe" set, hopefully with most of the current bugs and documentation problems repaired, is available either in stores or directly from Mandrake or MacMillan.
Maybe by next year i can pick up the newest copy of debian when i go to get groceries. Free redhat cd's with a $20 fillup at the local shell station!
I am !amused.
with a cool desktop :-)
I think it's a really good choice for newbies.
Heh. I never thought I'd see the phrase "at least vi is there."
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
I think this is a great idea, where else can you target an audiance that has pretty much no exposure to linux. The end users are hearing more and more about Linux in the mainstream media. Especially in light of the microsoft trial. The more linux is in the limelight, even for the most basic of users, the more it will start to catch on.
Now if it were just Debian.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
Just one more reason for me to love wally world...
---- Don't worry about signing me up... I'm already on all the spam lists.
I have tried 3 different disto's and still can't configure linux to work with my internet connection over the past 6 months.. nor can I figure out how to install much more than a simple KDE theme.
... "here" then is a *full* page saying you must make sure you update 3 other parts of your OS. -- Usually somewhere in the install instructions it says something like "I had a problem and did this to fix it..." Honestly after the first paragraph of install instruction I am intimidated.
... Makes for getting new reqruits kinda hard.
:)
While any windows app will have install instructions equaling 2 sentances... (if any are given at all).. the standard Linux app install instructions usually go... "click here"
Add to this that the whole linux comunity doesn't seem to concerned about the desktop market anymore.. seems most people don't want to answer "newbie" questions anymore because they answered em already n to the 10th times. Now I hear... "Screw the desktop market."
I'd love for linux to be *my* OS... so far I feel linux doesnt want it to be that way tho. -- I'm sticking to Win2k here. (Sadly.. KDE and GNOME really rock... Litestep can only emulate so much
None of this was meant to be a flame btw.. (seriously)
easier,
minus
I am Jack's HTTP Server
Now, I dont know about the Walmart's that everyone ELSE has been to, but every one around where I live has a few different linux distro's. I remember seeing both Redhat and Corel linux distro's there...
according to the cooker list the walmart version was snapped on 20001011 and the downloadable version was snapped on 20001027
I've had a long day. I'm sorry.
--- If something doesn't feel right, you're probably not feeling the right thing.
I don't know aout elsewhere, but I know that Target in Stuart, FL has been carrying a copy of Corel Linux for several months now... which of course was to my surprise. Anybody spot copies of anyhtign else anywhere else?
We've had RedHat and Mandrake on the shelves of our local Wal-mart for a LONG time (in upwards of six months to a year.)
Is that really that odd?
-C
"This above all, to thine own self be true"
As discussed recently on Mandrake Forum, this isn't actually the final release of Mandrake 7.2. Walmart required any products to be stocked for the Christmas season to be released at a certain time, and the final 7.2 release would not have made that, so instead they used the final Release Candidate of 7.2. It futures all the functionality of the final release, with only a few bug fixes implemented since then. I'm not sure it was the optimal choice, but if money's concerned, they really had to go with it.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
why wouldn't it be? RedHat is in "major" chains around the US. Why would it be bad to have another major distro that is apparently even easier to install/use too? This is coming from a Linux user's prospective :)
:)) But until that point in time we are going to have to deal as a community w/newbies (we were all newbies once), I just wish their questions weren't as weird as they are becomming :)
.02
Now, from an IRC helper prospective...
Not a good thing. We already have enough idiots coming in there babbling about their "PCI modem that works fine in Windows" not working in Linux, or the fact that they can't do this or that. This isn't like Windows! Yeah no shit...
I am glad to see things making a move towards more public acceptance I just hope that people realize that it is NOT windows, it will NEVER be Windows, and most of us don't want it to be...
at some point in time people will have an understanding of Linux as they do of Windows (except the fact that it is MUCH less expensive
Just my worthless
I can now get a shotgun, barbeque, some coveralls, and a copy of Mandrake all in the same store!
Bitcoin pyramid: Join here: http://www.bitcoinpyramid.com/r/1427 it's FREE!
Actually my local Wal-Mart has been selling Linux distros for a while now. They've had several boxes of RedHat 6.1 sitting right on the shelf in the computer aisle.
It might be important to note that they haven't been sold and they've been there for at least six months.
Will the typical Wal-Mart shopper - myself excluded - actually give a darn about Linux being on the shelf?
"The further I get from the things that I care about, the less I care about how much further away I get." -Robert Smith
This is a little interesting...about a month ago I saw a Madrake boxed set at Wal-Mart along with books and stuff for around 30.00. I considered buying it till I realized I could go home and download it for free...or I could download redhat...and then I went and pretended I was twelve to get free popcorn and forgot about the whole ordeal. I love those smiley face stickers.
The anti-salmon
I know atleast 3 people who have bought linux at OfficeMax-BestBuy-CompUSA with no clue what it is, just a look at the pictures on the back and they thought it was a Text-editor or something.
2 wanted refunds after they called me asking what it was (do you know how hard it is to actually explain to a newbie what an os is?
"It is an perating system, you use it instead of Winblows"
"heehee, your making fun of microsoft aren;t you"
"Yes"
"so its kind of like Mac OS"
"Yeah, exactly"
"So it runs on a Mac"
"No"
"But windows runs on a pc"
"So does Linux"
"Yeah right, seriously, what is Linux"
"Its an OS, you use it in place of windows"
"Yeah right, you can't take windows of a computer"
-continue for 10 minutes
The other guy left his CD in, and forgot about it when it didn't work. The next day I got a call when he turned on his computer and got the Set-up screen.
Seriously, its kinda cool their selling Linux at Wal-mart, but how many people that shop their will actually be able to figure out what its for?
Does this mean that dear hunter will be ported to linux? oh yeah thats what we really want :(
Ode to the SSB (Sadistic Sardonic Bastard)
I dunno... it's not THAT big a deal... I don't think I've ever even looked for software at wal-mart... if I'm gonna go get software I'll go to a software store or get it online... and how well is it really going to sell? not that well in my opinion. No offense to wal-mart shoppers ( hey I shop there too) but Wal-mart would be about the last place I would expect somebody to shop for linux... most people hear of linux online or from a friend I would assume and can get it online or from a friend. I dunno... just my 2 cents...
...then you can't be saying where it should and where it shouldn't be distributed.
;-)
At least at Walmart you know you'll get it for free for less than any other major retailer
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
At least since mid-1999, for about $10 with no manuals.
--------
Microsoft's VP of Customer Service is Helen Waite. If you are having problems with their products go to Helen Waite.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Is it just me or are we seeing more and more unstable default installs of linux Redhat 7.0 had all that trouble with gcc then i seem to remember something about a couple of debian releases that were unstable and now this mandrake problem? why are the developers rushing to get these releases out the door? do they not care about stability anymore? well at least we still have lfs
I just installed 7.1 (not 7.2) and it's got a lot of rough edges. Harddrake segaulted in some CD-ROM detect routine (I installed off CD), Sounddrake failed to detect my sound system, or correctly configure it when I specified everything (sndconfig worked though). The KDE/GNOME menu update/sync stuff fails miserably (best to disable it). The emacs provided has been patched to hardcode Alt=Meta (I downloaded a normal version)...and plenty of other minor inconveniences that would probably be a huge pain for someone new to Linux. It may be a pretty nice distro, but IMO not yet ready for Windows weenies...
... The KDE v2 is definitely not 'stable', and they went and changed RedHat's switchdesk mechanism without warning. I think most of the problems I've had are with the KDE subsystem. I've converted to XFce and have been pretty happy, though there are issues there too (placement of icons on and in panels is broken as compared to CDE, which did it right).
/vol partitions unformatted but clobber the rest and start from scratch on /usr, /var, /, etc..) and ran into lots of little things, like the installer was broken because it failed to format my format-target-designate /usr before allowing me to select other packages and thus limited me to the free space available for all new packages..
Also, I was doing a clobber-upgrade (keep my home,
I would most definitely not call this a wal-mart-ready distro, unless you go with XFce or one of the more stable desktops. At least they didn't go with an unsupported compiler.. And inetd comes disabled by default, which is IMHO a feature..
Your Working Boy,
"Dear Hunter" is that some kind of dating game? Bass fishing games are what you really need to own the desktop market.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
[Best southern accent imitation]
Get your email about weekly NRA meetings faster, and more efficent with Linux, vaule priced at wal-mart!!
ACT NOW and get 5 pounds of beef, absolutely free!
"Ma ma, I want Lanix!"
"Shut up Jed."
Well, I dunno. It looks very good on paper: the hardware detection and Drak(whatever) are very reassuring to the suit: it makes it seem like there're enough drivers so that driver incompatibilities won't be a problem (e.g. "I have a Sound Blaster compatible card - why doesn't this Sound Blaster driver work with my Crystal Sound C4181?")...
But I dunno... somehow I'm of two minds with this - on one hand, Linux'll end up in Podunk, Arkansas. But on the other hand, the numbers of frustration calls on it being released into the general public too soon might undermine its growth.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I have seen RedHat 6.2 at Wal-Mart. That was quite a while ago. This guy must never go to the software section of Wal-Mart if he thinks Linux being there is something new.
Geeze.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
BTW regarding the "deluxe" package that came complete with virtually every free -- as in either speech or beer -- piece of software: I think that free-as-in-beer software includes free-as-in-speech software, since free-as-in-speech software comes to you at no price, hence it's free-as-in-beer as well and it's superfluous to mention the two together. Any comments?
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
It also has more security options -- probably the widest range available to point and click Linux users -- a bunch of cool new games, and default 3-D acceleration support, something Chmouel says is currently offered by no other commercial Linux distribution.
Well, the caveat is that it is not XFree4 acceleration thru DRI. Which, if they're gonna throw in a beta KDE, then why not a beta X system for good measure? Along with a beta kernel to get it working...
Your Working Boy,
...are massive install parties (tailgate parties?) at each WalMart!
Tell people to bring their PCs on down, and if they're having problems with their Mandrake and/or RedHats they're installing, just bring their PC with em to the parking lot!
YES it would have to be with a purchase from Wal-Mart - we'd be trying to help them, not compete with them... and it might put some cash back into the pockets of Mandrake, RedHat, etc... because in all fairness, they DO contribute to Linux development...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I found it kinda cartoonish but then again it's been a long time since I've used it. It's an os not a cartoon leave it basic and let the user customize it I dont like that distro's put their little graphics all over the console and desktop. Not that it's impossible to remove that stuff but it's an attempt to brand the product. It's OK guys all you need to do is put your little graphic on the box it comes in and the docs you provide it wouldnt feel half as newbish if it wasnt plastered with cartoon looking "enhancements" anyhow just my opinion.
I know that most of us dont have to deal with this, but for a lot of people wal-mart IS the computer and software store. There is NO Compusa or Bestbuy right down the street. The closest one of those are 50+ miles away.
While it probably is true that in most places, it will probably sit on the shelf, or ignorant people will buy it thinking that its a wordprocessor, Alot of us dont have the option to download it, nor do they partically want to order it.
I grew up in a small town, so I know. most places in america wal-mart IS the department store.
BTW, Wal-mart been selling Redhat since 5.0, and Mandrake since 6.1. That is, at least the 24-hour supercenters.
Don't think this is a linux problem and don't give up. Windows only seems easy because it is familiar. I know that I needed help figuring all of the usefull things like shortcuts for Windows, which were not documented with all of the manuals that came with my first GUI box. Linux documentation, by compairison rocks. Get help with your install, learn "man command" buy a book and enjoy. Once you get over the hump, you'll find that many things are much easier to do and you will wonder how you ever got along with Windows.
If you really can't find any help, try the red hat 6.0 that came with Linux Unleashed. It works, unlike the 6.1 and 6.2 installs that I've tried and it's not that hard. Your miliage may vary I got CDs from LinuxCentral.com as soon as I read about the releases on Slashdot, so 6.2 might work great now. If you can install a windows box, you can make this one work. As a bonus, you get a helpfull book that works anywhere there is enough light to read. As pointed out above, Mandrake 7.1 works well too and it is easier, but I can not vouch personally for the documentation. It looked OK.
Windows seems easy because:
1.) Microsoft has cut deals with hardware manufacturers to keep APIs secret
2.) In most cases, it's pre-installed
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Does this mean that dear hunter will be ported to linux? oh yeah thats what we really want :(
I happen to like Deer Hunter! And, yes, I actually make patches for the kernel every so often. Not everyone who likes to hunt is a person of low intelligence. Hey, after all, at least I'm not killing real animals if I'm playing Deer Hunter on the computer :-)
You know, it's kinda fun. Sometimes you get an idiot who doesn't know which way to insert a floppy, and you can just ignore them.
You gurus want to give it a shot, and gain some penguin-karma.
On the other hand, places like Helix Code are making installs (or at least upgrades) awfully easy...
---
Almost all of them thought AOL
- was
the internet. The handfull that didn't were those who'd never logged on at all, and thus had yet to form the impression that AOL == Internet. For christsakes, the crap that my poolskimmer collects had a higher IQ than the average WalMart shopper.Does Mandrake honestly think that someone in Tater Tot, New Mexico is going to wander into a WalMart, see the Linux distro and purchase it? Heh. All I can say is that I'm thankful I'm not working in Mandrake's technical support department.
Maybe Mandrake can also start giving out their CDs at pro wrestling events and monster truck rallies, too!
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Hmmm, Walmart selling Mandrake Linux . . . I like this! My least favorite Linux distro sold by my least favorite retailer. They deserve each other. Bah! run Debian like you ought to!
I don't know whether to count this as a good thing or a bad :P
Mandrake showing up in Walmart, I have some stories about Walmart..
I was in a Walmart one day browsing the computer games and over heard an old lady talking to one of the sales people.. Basically she wanted to return her Caller-id box, because it didn't work..
When she was asked about service tho, she said that she didn't need to subscribe to anything because her answering machine didn't need any service to work!
lets see, I was in the same one at another time and overheard some little (8-10yo) kids talking (loudly) about how they would never play anything like quake because they didn't want to shoot people, they'd rather play deer hunter..
I really wanted to comment on how honorable it is to shoot something that's defenseless vs something that's not...
And then...
The day after Thanksgiving last year, when there were all kinds of sells, 24 hour sells and stuff like that.. Me and a friend got up really early to goto a local city (well, 20 min away) to goto the sales, and as it would happen we went to Walmart.
On our way into town It started to rain, and was still sprinkling when we pulled into a parking space..
As we were walking up to the store we saw a married couple cart out two of the generic ass computers that Walmart sells, in the rain..
We made fun of them and they heard us and said "Oh, I'm sure that there's plenty of padding, they won't get wet"
And then the loaded them into the back of their pickup truck... (It didn't have a shell on it..)
These three examples are why I think Mandrake might not do too well in Walmart..
I can only imagine one possible dialog:
"I want to return this stupid piece of $#%#)"
"What is wrong with it sir?"
"I can't get Microsoft Word running on it! This dumb OS sucks"
"oh, ah, Mandrake can't run Microsoft products.. It runs something called Linux"
"Well, just gimme my $#%# refund"
"sorry sir, can't do that"
"why?"
"We're afraid you took it home and copied the cd.."
Actually, I was musing the prospects of selling distro cd's on Ebay at work the other day (I work at a cd replication place)..
My mostly dumb coworker, who just gotten a computer, called me a pirate for thinking about that...
He's obviously already attuned to Microsofts software policies.
(Note: He didn't know what a 486 is.. and he's 26)
Then again, Walmart is usually in places where they can't get a (semi) decent store..
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
Mandrake is not the first distro Walmart has carried. Redhat has been available for quite some time at my local Walmart.
DHCP ... the link I just followed stated that most have trbl getting Redhad 6.1 to work with this card... This might be my trouble too.
I am Jack's HTTP Server
They have a distribution which is not Mandrake 7.2 (check the Mandrake mailing lists for details, but I believe it's a prerelease), and they are representing it as if it was Mandrake 7.2.
I doubt that the particular marketdroid who made this decision thought of it in these terms, but "misrepresentation" and "fraud" are the first things that come to my mind. People's first experience with Linux should not be with a beta release masquerading as a fully tested distribution.
I've seen Redhat Linux at Wal-Mart for awhile now, I think it started when ver. 6 came out.
Hopefully LinuxMandrake will offer some tech support with the CD. I thought I read on a RH box that the basic $30 CD/BOX came with 30 days free tech support from RH. I hope that Mandrake offers at least that much support with each CD they sell at Walmart.
This tech support will hopefully be enough to get people with it installed - there are alot of very able user-types who will be able to get a dual boot going and get to understand/use Linux.
Did all the Wal-Mart McMillian versions go to the USA?
Will the McMillian version also have 2 flavers (the pandering to the big guys version and the well, we are happy to sign off this version version?)
Darryl
>>>>>
And I've seen various Linux distributions on the shelves of both Walmart and Target on those occasions I have visited to buy cheap camera film.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Perhaps we should develop a "Trailer Park" Linux distro. If we put a picture of Tux driving a camaro on the box, it's sure to be a success.
--It's Pimptastic!--
No need to reboot
DHCP automatically starts.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
And I was on the verge of doing do when I realized that it could well be the version without the compilers and other good stuff. Nevertheless, inspired by this cultural advance quickly making it's way to Montana, not exactly the most sophisticated place in lower 48, I went back to work and fired up a Cheapbytes order form for the GPL version (includes KDE 2.0, etc). If it wasn't for Wal-Mart I'd probably ended up procrastinating for a couple more weeks,
Jonathan Moran
Oink, Oink!!
Here lies the problem: if 7.2 has an unstable install utility, it may scare people away from Linux for a long, long time. Difficult is a little different, as most will come to the conclusion that it is just to advanced for them, and mabey inspire them to learn, or at least try again when they may become a little more computer knowledgable. But if it has errors, a newbie will look at that as "poor" software, buy ME, and be on their way. This is not good for the Linux community, especially if some boneheaded reporter should happen upon Linux at their local Wal-Mart, and have a nightmarish time installing it.
So, yes, I think that exposure is good for Linux, but perhaps we should really wait for it to be ready for mainstream before it is made mainstream.
What needs to be done is make the non-geek community understand what Linux is and why it is better than MS. I know a fair amount of people that have no idea what OS even means, and think that America Online IS the internet, and find it amazing that I can connect to the internet without such revolutionary programs. These will be tough people to convert. It is important to get the message out about Linux, but I'm not too sure we should push too many people to try it. The public and the media can both be very unforgiving when something doesn't work right the first time. Especially if they change their Windows partition to a Linux partition and loose everything on their computer. Linux, undoubtedly, will take the fall for that manuver.
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
This is a true story..
Girl called Helpdesk with a computer having trouble... would not boot right. Asked if she installed any new software. She said yes, got a new word processor from Wal-Mart. She said she didn't know what to get so she asked counter guy... He gave her software to get. Helpdesk guy asked what the software was.... she said it was something called Redhat.
She managed to install RH over her Windows install, of course did not back up. Then asked if she had restore disks... didn't know. Tech asked where she got computer... she replied Helig-Meyers (a furniture store, here in the South).
No I'm not kidding...
Eric Aitala
www.f1m.com
I suppose it depends on your perspective. For a typical home single-user environment, I suppose Star Office's Previous/Next/Finish wizard installation routine might seem comfortingly Windows-ish.
/net" (which I suppose has something to do with an expectation that you will be using a shared network filesystem among single-user workstations), except that it's not "/net", it's "-net" (Apparently StarOffice was developed under DOS). That is if you can find the setup program, because it's not where the documentation says it is either (looks like they added multiple language support at the last minute -- it wasn't that hard to figure out, just sort of JV).
:)
From a system administrator's point of view, however, StarOffice has the most bone-headedly stupid install that I have ever seen. This evening, already tired, grumpy, and low on caffeine, I installed Star Office 5.2 on a machine running Solaris 7 (or whatever it is in Sun's current numbering scheme). Let me elaborate (and sorry about the length, but I'm still grumpy and ranty):
print <<"EndOfRant";
My first complaint is the stupid java-based and pointlessly-GUIed installation program. If I were to install this on our lab full of workstations, I would have to spend an entire day walking from workstation to workstation clicking "Next." (Maybe we're going to have to write an X version of Expect.) You call that easy to install? I call running a script to ssh into each workstation and run "make install" while I read Slashdot easy to install. This is just a waste of my time. Anyway, I digress.
The second thing that I noticed about the installation was that it defaults to being installed in a user's home directory. What? That's just insane! In order to get it to install itself in some reasonable place, the directions seem to indicate that I have to run "./setup
The third crazy thing is that the default "-net" install directory is "/office52". What a great idea! I'm just going to stop installing things in "/usr" and "/usr/local", and I'll put them all in one big "/" partition. Anyway, I changed the directory to "/usr/local/staroffice-5.2" because I like descriptive names and don't feel the need to limit myself to 8 characters (there's that DOS thing again).
At this point it gets a little blurry. I think I remember waiting for some little blue bar to move to the right while some sort of slide show went on. I think the slides were trying to sell me on this something called "StarOffice". It looked pretty neat, and I thought about getting it, but then I realized I was already installing it! What is that all about? Sigh.
After the little "complete" dialog came up, I thought I was done. "Not so," said StarOffice. Turns out that each of our 20,000 users was going to have to run a setup script for him- or herself that will install over 2.5 MB of files into some user-defined directory. What? I was in shock. Programs that blindly create little ".program" files and directories all over the place are annoying enough, but even Netscape is smart enough to make ".netscape" all by itself (unless you wrap it in a script that makes the directory and preferences files for Netscape).
This presents new problems:
First, I am obviously going to have to write some sort of wrapper that makes sure setup is run before Star Office is run. Since the destination directory is user-defined, I would have to create some separate tracking mechanism ("touch $HOME/.so52-setup-done" or some crap like that).
Second, the per-user install starts with a scary warning that the machine needs to be patched, as well as other messages which are obviously intended for the system administrator. (Yes, the box is already patched.) I can hear the phone ringing already.
Third, 2.5 MB? Many of our users are already bumping up against their quotas. Another 2.5 MB might just push them and their 99MB inboxes over the edge, and then they'd have to learn how to press "d" in pine or to use gzip, which would surely break their minds.
What right does StarOffice have to take up 2.5MB with user config files, anyway? (And what else is it putting there besides config files?) I can understand the directory growing after use, but 2.5MB right off the bat seems a little weird.
Fourth, in the process of playing with and configuring StarOffice my test account, I repeatedly came across messages that
"/usr/local/staroffice-5.2/foo/bar" is not writable. Well of course it isn't! Isn't that what the stuff in the home directory is for? I guess not. Odd. (Clearly this is more hold-over from StarOffice's single-user roots.)
EndOfRant
What makes this all so crazy is that this software is (well is now, anyway) from a division of Sun "The Network is the Computer", Inc. and was being installed on a machine and operating system designed and built by Sun, Inc. Why, then, is this software so poorly adapted to a multi-user/shared/distributed environment? It's just weird.
Anyway, it's not that big of a deal. I just wanted to point out that one person's "easy graphical wizard" is another person's "child of satan that makes me take my hands away from the keyboard to use a rodent."
Whew. That's a long post. Tomorrow morning I'm going to write some little perl-based installation routine to bypass all of the GUI crap for each user. (I'll be nice and pop up the license, but the rest can be skipped.) By then, I will have probably discovered some "--skip-java-gui" and "--dont-hog-my-home-directory" flags for the install, but for now the "GUI rage" is still fresh on my CLI fingertips.
Corgha
Now we can feel guilty about buying linux distro's that were packaged by sweatshop kids from Asia/Phillipines...
Maybe Mandrake could get Kathy Lee as a spokesperson (she certainly has the free time now)
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Don't know if only the USA got the pre-release version. Some have suggested that those who buy the McMillian version can just do a Mandrake Update to get up to the 20001027 version. You should know that the McMillian version has KDE 1.99; while the released version has the KDE 2.0 final software.
I have a 3c509 card and my Win95 machine will not recognize it. I've installed the driver bunches of times, but the control panel thinks there's no network card installed and refuses to give me configuration screens.
If this was Linux I'd just fix up a new kernel or maybe just a module.
It's OK anyway. Win95 is what I use for trivial, unimportant, moronic things, like games. Linux uses the 3c509 with no problems and that's where I do my work anyway.
My point is that you could wish for an easier setup, but computers will *always* find a way to bite you. The solution to this problem is pass a law that only one single network card and no others is legal to use. Then, make everything work with that single model of card. But, that probably won't happen.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I don't shop at Wal-Mart. The bastards have gone on a vengeance hunt to drive all the local merchants out of business by selling below cost. Half the retail space in this town is vacant now, and the downtown is 95% closed up. This place is starting to look like a ghost town since Sam's lawyers moved in. Thanks to a short-sighted city manager (and a greedy developer), we've now got more than 40 empty storefronts with a Wal-Mart in the middle.
http://www.sprawl-busters.com
Why should we be surprised, plus, it's nothing new. I bought a version of Corel's linux at Target about 4 months ago. Various distributions have been sold in national bookstore chains since linux has become profitable. If it's easy for the layman to install and configure, so be it. (on a side note; Corel had a very nice install, but setting up PPP took a lot of work)
There's not the symmetry between Linux and Windows experience that you seem to imply. Windows was built for the masses, and tries to hide detail from you, but Linux does the reverse. Linux is built by techies for techies - people who happily trade ease-of-use for power and flexibility; people who not only are capable of looking under the hood when things break, but usually actually enjoy doing so! Does every Windows user have the potential to be a Unix administrator (i.e. Linux user)? Nah....
Even if you never buy a book, there are tons of documentation and help sites. I highly recommend Linux Coffee Talk at eunuchs.org/cgi-bin/lct.pl. I've posted questions there and have gotten rather quick and helpful responses. Hang in there, I have thoroughly been impressed with the sheer number of powerful and lightning quick packages that Linux has to offer. Windows is easier, but near as much fun.
--
does this mean they'll have to release a "clean" version with fsck censored out?
tourettes
Hey does anyone know why since Mandrake 7.2, it always locks up my computer at the partition check? All it shows is Partition Check:
hda1 hda2
And it freezes right there.
Here's why: I was in a Sam's Club (another branch of the Walton Empire) when I was down in Bentonville (home of same) visiting my mom. We passed the software racks, and there was a distro with Tux on it. Mandrake, if memory serves, although this was last year. I picked it up out of curiosity, having never seen a distro in the retail wild before, and Mom said "Hey, what is that program?"
Now, I was pretty proud of Mom when she graduated from AOL to a real ISP, but I didn't really think she was ready for a real OS, so I attempted to explain this to her.
Turns out what she really wanted to know was, what was that penguin logo, on account of she'd gotten an embroidery pattern for her Husqvarna (which can download patterns from a PC), and that was it. It had a funny filename, she said: tux.hus.
Ah ha, I said, and pointed out to her that it would make my husband really happy to get something (other than a tie...) with Tux on it. So he got a Tux-embroidered sweatshirt for Christmas.
Which (along with a Linuxmall T-shirt from my sister, who did recognize Tux when Mom mentioned it to her) resulted in his boss recommending him for the committee that was looking into "that open-source stuff," and whether any of it should be used in their little bitty company, which some of you may have heard of: Boeing.
Cheese, nothing. Behold the power of penguins.
(I'm sure I could tie the Boeing/plane thing in with the penguins/tipping thread somehow, but I've had too much cold medicine and not enough sleep, so someone else will have to do it.)
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
Linux still doesn't have adequate support for winmodems. I burned a copy of Mandrake 7.2 and put it on my two-week-old system yesterday. I was surprised when the installation went through without a hitch (7.1 crashed every time it probed my video card.) I was excited when I saw the (pretty!) desktop and heard a startup sound. I was puzzled when I couldn't get my dialup connection to work. When I waded through the poor-English documentation on my Motorola SM56 PCI modem and discovered that "SM" stands for "winmodem" ("Software Modem") I was pissed off. Yeah, this is a problem with my PC manufacturer (and with me--for not looking before I got it) but imagine all the people who got their computers at Wal-Mart trying to get their shiny new-fangled operating system on the internet, and it can't find their modem! There are enough systems out there that this could cause a lot of people to have a negative view of Linux ("yeah, I tried Linux once, but I could never get it on the internet, Windows works fine, though") What good is a computer that can't get on the internet?
The requested URL
i just purchased my copy of Mandrake 7.2 at my local Wal-Mart for just under $30.00 The Install although not flawless was easy enough That even a not so complete newbie like me could figure out that I could not configure X because it did not install automagically. Other than that it was just a breeze to get it going. The purists might bemoan the fact that you don't spend all weekend long typing away at the console,but I'm sure pleased to have it without waiting for Cheap Bytes or Linux Central to put it out.
OK, everyone raise your hands if this has you thinking about cutting Tux shaped crop circles on enduro bikes :)
-MattT *** Not speaking for my employer, or any other sentient beings ***
The Walmarts here in California have carried RedHat for several months now, AND some other less-marketed disty whose name escapes me.
For that matter, so have the Costcos.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
When I moved to the US about half a year ago and first visited a Wal-Mart, I found Red Hat Linux and other distributions there. Nothing new about this.
My first distro was Slack...I kinda know what I'm doing.
Having said that, my experience with Mandrake 7.1 was that, hey, installation was point-and-click. =)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
In other news today, Wal-Mart just introduced its own in-house brand of wine. Customers, however, were confused; they didn't know whether to serve the red or the white with Kraft Dinner.
Wah!
i work in a wal-mart in PA and selling linux is not new to us. Since we opened our store in October of 1999 we have carried Redhat 5.2, Mandrake 6.5, Mandrake 7.0 and now Makdrake 7.2. And at our store 7.2 was on the shelf in the wee hours of the morning on Sunday.
I tried to install Mandrake 7.2 (downloaded version) And ran into a couple serious problems.
First, it wouldn't allow me to run X on my V3. Basically horking it up badly. No amount of tweaking and configuration seemed to fix the setup it tried to install. So, no X.
Even more critical, The installer threw a boot loader on there which wouldn't allow me to get into windows. Just hanging when I tried to select windows instead of linux.
Bad news.
So, now I have no linux on this machine. Maybe I just happen to have a configuration the installer didn't plan on seeing, or it was a fluke of some type, but at least in my case, mandrake was a bad experience and I won't be trying again anytime soon.
My point is, that if someone's first experience with Linux was the same as my first experience with mandrake 7.2, it would be their last experience with linux, and they'd tell their friends how much linux sucks, and would probably not be likely to venture out of the windows camp again for many years.
________
Check out this Slashdot article, and this interview with Roland Dyroff of SuSe, and you will see that I'm not the only person who is a little worried about the backlash of pressing Linux into the mass market. The biggest problem, really, remains hardware support. And low end non-legacy systems just add to this complication. I think the grace for Linux will be that more computers are coming pre-installed with Linux, and this will, eventually, solve the biggest problems with getting started using Linux. That would be, well, getting started. If a manufacturer of a boxed system includes a preconfigured install, tailored for just that box, a huge hurdle has been overcome. Unfortionately, OEM support just hasn't been that great for the Open Source community in reguards to conumer level products. Convincing the big companies to sell (and support)preconfigured systems in places like Wal-Mart is what needs to be done to push Linux into the mainstream. For the moment, I would hate to work at Mandrake tech support and have to answer calls like "How do I get my onboard modem to work in my free PC that I got for signing up for 3 years of MSN. Oh yeah, how can I get MSN to work now that I am not using Windows. Can I still use it?" a hundred and fifty times a day.
Until the OEM's, the hardware companies, and the software companies commit to better support for Linux, I don't see it going mainstream. Do I think it is a good idea for it to be marketed in places like Wal-Mart? It really is hard to say. I am just trying to point out some of the potential problems, and I would hate to see somebody get scared away from Linux from a bad experience because they themselves weren't ready to try it. Remember, I am talking about people who view their computer as a "toy", and for the time being, perhaps they are better off on a "toy" operating system (Windows, of course).
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
Europe will get 7.2 final. Assuming Australia doesn't get Mandrake from MacMillan (or even if you do), you will almost certainly get 7.2 final as well.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Does your machine use SCSI? How about trying the text install?
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Hi,
When mandrake 7.2 was released, I thought. Hell why not! I had a 1.7 GB partition left on my windows 2000 machine which seemed perfect for trying out mandrake. My experience with this distribution up to then had been very good. Mandrake 7.1 is probably one of the best distributions around in terms of usability, configurability and compatibility. However, 7.2 should in my opinion not have been released. What a piece of shit!
Things that gave me trouble:
- choosing expert mode disables a lot of stuff (e.g. DrakConf). This is hard to fix afterwards, unless you know the names of the packages you need to install manually.
- I was presented with the choice of xfree 3.3.6 (3d accelerated), 4.01 (no 3d) or just 3.3.6 without acceleration (i have a matrox g200). I chose 4.01. The install finished, I rebooted and X did not launch. It was complaining about missing libraries. Again, this is probably easy to fix if you know all the packages you are supposed to install.
- The default install requires over 2.5 Gb (talk about bloat). I really hate the package selection in Mandrake, unless you know what each package does, you are left with no choice other than to slide the bar to get a lower percentage of packages. This needs much improvement. What the hell am I going to do wth these isdn tools for instance? Or how about ppp connection tools, palmpilot synchronization tools, cdrecording tools. I don't have isdn or even a modem. I use a LAN connection. I don't have a cdrecorder. Finding all these packages manually is difficult, especially if you are uncertain about what each package does. Why not group them under 'modem tools' and 'cd recording tools'. The same goes for development tools. The only reason I install them is because I want to be able to compile and install stuff. I have no need for fortran or other obscure languages that are rarely used anymore.
- The installation 'died' a few times (I was using the ftp install). It then displays a message the installation died and that's it! Tip, if this happens to you press cancel a few times (worked for me, I think there was a problem with the connection).
- I installed the grub boot loader once (was selected by default). Since my partition is at the end of my harddrive, it had some trouble recognizing it. Unfortunately the install does not detect this problem and you are faced with an unbootable system afterwards! I fixed it by booting from a disk, and installing lilo (which had no trouble with my partition). Note this also happened to me with red hat 7!
I had other minor complaints about mandrake. However, I'll save those for a later day. My point is that this is not release quality software. This software was rushed out without proper testing. Considering Mandrake explicitly targets newby linux users, there's just too much things that can go wrong. I was able to fix some obvious problems, but then I'm not a newby linux user. If I was not, I would probably have given up.
If MS releases a piece of shit like this everybody complains. So, I don't see why I should shut up now. Mandrake 7.2 is not release quality. The best they can do at Mandrake now is mark it as beta and continue testing and fixing for a few more months. There's really a few nice, innovative things in this distribution. But things like an installation should be more robust. The expert mode should tell me what is going on and not just silently disable essential packages.
Jilles
Finnish linux distributions called "Best Linux" by Suomen Ohjelmisto Työ is allready selling their stripped distribution in kiosk chain called R-Kioski (Rautakirja OY). This chain can be found in *every* town and village where you have more than 200 people and i do really mean that.
So selling stuff on big departmentstores like Wal-Mart is no news at all for us, real techies! =)
--
yush
* Mandrake 7.1 is probably one of the best
* distributions around in terms of usability,
* configurability and compatibility
Good for you! I for one had no end of problems trying to install 7.1 from a PC-plus cover disk, first off, the install bar and mouse stopped for a really long time, making me think it had crashed, although i later found out it was thinking about something.
I tried the text-based install before anyone asks and it fscking SEGFAULTED ON ME! talk about a lame piece of shit, anyway...
Having to start all over again is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE BACKSIDE. Having installed all the packages (which seems to take for even in graphics mode), it would come to cryptographic, put my ISP details in, nice and easy, so it sits there attempting to dial my ISP and download the software indefinitely and unsuccessfully.
so I had to switch to a virtual terminal and kill anything ppp related, a less knowledgable person (your average mdk user) wouldn't have known what to do.
Install bootloader: FOR FSCKS SAKE NO! LEAVE MY MASTER BOOT RECORD EXCACTLY HOW YOU CAME TO IT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!!!
does it listen? no, it just tramples all over my precious MBR no matter how much you tell it not to.
I wouldn't mind but once it had "installed", it got as far as entering runlevel 5..., and completely froze up and died, that's not the linux i know.
I would have stuck to 7.0 except for the lack of XFree4.0.1 and the autoupdate feature (advertised on the box damnit) didn't work at all.
And helix-update... well. style over effectiveness at best.
I gave up in the end and decided I'd wait for 7.2, hmmm, 7.3 anyone?
Disgrunted Mandrake user.
skiy. www.Smokedot.org Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Biased part is: LM version you can buy at WM today is good, in fact it is much better than many other Linux distros out there. Even Roblimo had to admitt that "he had no problems with KDE2".
informative part is: Primary reason why we continued the developement even after shipping the ISO-s for CD-s was the feeling that people will bitch about KDE2-beta, even if there were absolutely no difference between the version we ship and the "final" KDE2.
The "RC1" was idea of our marketing: They were afraid that sales of 7.1 version would be gone as soon as we announce that 7.2 is finished, so we called it Release-candidate. Then, when we rolled out what is called "download edition" today (and which should have been called 7.2.1, I suppose), they got all scared that folks will think that we shipped a beta.
While Marketing drones are marketing drones (and I can tell you one: OUR marketing folks are actaully wery reasonable, and really try hard to somehow put together wishes of users and developers on one and re-salers on other side.), what I don't understand is apparent easines with which Slashdot readers start bashing a Linux distro whenever given a chance to do so.
OK, let me be completely open: For the first time EVER, one Linux distribution puts updated product for download, even before the distro hits the shops. Is there something really badly wrong with the version you can buy in the shop? NO. Beta-testing period for 7.2 has been extremely long, and while 16 more days helped us clean some more bugs, the product you ca n buy in Wal-Mart today is NOT a "beta" or pre-release quality.
FYI, I'm running that version right now, Roblimo has run it succesfully, and although one would not say it from multitude of "beautifful" responses one can read here, most of the people whop tried the distro are very happy with it.
So, one would expect to see a crowd of happy slashdoters celebrating the fact that there actually exists a company which is not afraid of putting a newer version on the net than on CD-s, but instead all I see is "they are trying to frame us", and "LM sux" all over the /.
(Thx, I guess you have just ruined everything i tried to build during last months. I guess, marketing was right: doing ir SuSe-way is much better idea than doing the distro in open way, as we do. As soon as you try to open-up, tell the truth, and count on human inteligence to understand that you REALLY do all you can, all you get is lot of bashing. )
I have been a passionate /. reader for long time, and I must say I am really surprised: what happened with bunch of friendly nerds that once lived here? All gone to greaner pastures, or what?
Sorry to nitpick, but...
"so its kind of like Mac OS"
"Yeah, exactly"
"So it runs on a Mac"
"No"
Er, actually it *does* run on Macs, along with Alpha, Sparc, MIPS, StrongARM...
Linux != Intel-Linux.
typed on an Apple Firewire-PowerBook G3 500 MHz running LinuxPPC 2000
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
The Redneck Hacker
Gorkman
http://www.linuxnewbie.org/
</plug>
seriously, you can either get answers to ANY question fairly quickly, or else find the answer by searching the forums or checking the nhf's (newbie-ized help files).
Ok, now THAT's cool that somebody's wasting their moderator points on a reply two deep on a, what, 12 hour old article that barely got any replies.
Here's a hint, moderators, since you're obviously still reading this - modding down a reply to a 0 score post only makes sense if you really think the reply will get modded down to 0. More to the point, in this case, what I was responding to was obviously more worthy of being modded down, which would have gotten my comment knocked out, too.
But, oh, wait - that wouldn't have hurt someone's karma. So whoever modded this down did it because they don't like ME, and wanted to punish me for writing this reply that four people were going to see, and no one was going to care about.
I'm starting to see why so many people claim the moderation system is broken.
Although I'm guessing that the real truth is, I got modded down by the same bloody moron who posted "EMACS BITCH!!!" as AC.
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
If people know enough about what they want to accomplish and know why they want linux, then they should jump in. There are all sorts of good reasons. I'm not trying to be elitist here. Getting out of paying M$, not wanting to install service packs, enhanced reliability (be it perceived or real), keeping an old computer productive are among the many reasons I would recommend an average consumer buy linux.
I would still send him to a local installfest, though.
---
You were a moderator with 5 points. You should have read the moderator guidelines before you did any moderating
FYI, fixes for installation problems (including a problem with CUPS) are here
____________________
Ni!
Every popular bookstore in my town, including Borders, Barnes & Noble, and a large local store, have copies of SUSE, Mandrake, Caldera, and several versions of RedHat. There's also a huge section of Linux books, from programming to installation to using The Gimp. I'm talking at least ten shelves of distributions and books in Borders, plus a separate display of distributions.
Folks, this is mainstream. If you're worried about the impression that poor installation will give, then you should have been worried about the general mass retail acceptance of Linux that's been going on for several years now. Many of the people I've heard talking about a RedHat box in Borders don't seem like they could install Linux without any help.
Maybe the real question is that why Slashdotters insist that Linux is still an underground movement. It's like someone thinking that The Simpsons is underground--and many people honestly think this. If you can run into a bookstore and buy 50 books on Linux, then it's not esoteric or underground. It makes perfect sense for Wal-Mart to pick up on Linux, because they're into selling what's popular.
(As a footnote, I still think that most of the copies of Linux sold in mass market outlets are for tinkering or seeing what all the fuss is about. I bought a copy of RedHat through CheapBytes a few years ago for the same reason. I had used UNIX for years prior to that, but never installed Linux. My Linux partition has languished, partially because I tired of being in constant upgrade mode.)
I'm running Mandrake 7.1 & I'm very happy - it installed perfectly from a downloaded ISO on my trusty P233. I found Grub to work great too, and the reason I went with it was it allows me to have a 15Gb Windows partition before my Linux partitions; Lilo chokes if Linux is on a partition beyond 8Gb IIRC. I've been a Mandrake fan for home use for some time now, I've never had any problems. I'm looking forward to downloading the ISO in the next few weeks & checking out KDE 2 & Koffice, hopefully it'll go as well as my previous installs.
Your rants are a bit unfair. (Except for /net vs. -net ... that one upset me for awhile too)
1. Re: Installing in a lab/lots-of-machines
You don't need to run the installer a bu-gillion times. Install it on one machine, tar up the installed image (/usr/local/staroffice52), untar onto as many other (similarly configured) machines as desired.
2. install wrapper to ensure setup is run before StarOffice:
This happens already. If a user attempts to run staroffice, and it hasn't already been setup, it'll run the setup automatically.
enough said...
I asked my mom for RedHat 7 for my birthday (last week) so I could try it out.
She found it eventually, but complained that they didn't carry it at WalMart (they should have everything she says), only "The one with the penguin on it"
Yes, they've had Linux on the shelves for some time- problem is that they've been pushing the previous version of the distributions they were selling (incl. Mandrake) since they started. To beat everyone else with the latest version of any distribution is something of a coup for Linux and a change of pace for Wal-Mart.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
hey, it is a thought.
So many people are afraid to buy and use a computer because they have heard horror stories from someone they know, mostly due to Windows shameless instability. And people who do own computers are not simply going to give up on all of their Windows software. Until Wine can run every Windows program at an acceptable speed (maybe use multiple processors) people are not going to switch.
Walked in, needing to buy some spray paint for a house project I was going to do. Spotted the box and snagged it.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Everyone had to start somewhere. If a friend didn't give me a copy of SuSE Linux 5.3 over a year and a half ago (who was given to him by a person at a booth at comdex vegas previous) I would still be ignorant to Linux.
I have since fallen in love with the box and have spent every day since using it. I have found ways to replace the tasks that I was used to doing w/Windows and slowly
I am not a Linux 'guru' or 'expert', but I find it a bit childish and just plain arrogant that you believe that the average user doesnt have the curiousity or the plain determination to figure something out. Yes, there are a lot of people out there that don't have the time, energy.. or even care about technology or open source software.. or what it stands for.. but how many people out there are a hell of a lot better than any of us are waiting for the chance. I will bet that there are 12-13'year olds that will get their parents to take a chance and purchase linux
Mandrake is nice.. I have been using it since 6.1
Unfortunately it's this 'holyer than thou' attitude that scares off new members of the community that we need.
Sorry if this sounded harsh, no ill intended, but I guess I can relate with the person standing at wallmart trying to figure out if linux is worth investing in or not. I was there not to long ago.
.02
--------------------
"Default" == "What is supported"
Voodoo5 support proper is still an "unreleased" product from what I understand about the DRI work so far (If I'm mistaken, would someone a little more associated with the DRI project correct...). I'd be surprised (pleasantly, mind) that Mandrake included Utah-GLX, which is rather stable with the RagePRO and is moderately stable with the G200/G400 (I'm working on that- the texture stuff's toast right now...). Suffice it to say, if it's not at least an official beta, don't expect them to include it by "default".
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I'm a newbie and I bought Mandrake 7.1! at wal-mart. I saw 7.1 there for about a month and finally decided to fork out the 24 bucks, and I absolutely love it. I'm definitly a Linux disciple, now.
What about rants is supposed to be fair? I thought the point was to blow off steam, not to present a balanced review. ;)
Anyway, of course one can just tar up the package and untar it (I'm not an idiot). (You could also use a shared /usr/local, as is the case with our workstations, not that I'm even planning on doing that -- it was just an example to show why GUI installs are not always good, but I digress...) One can also write a script to automate the user end of setup, as I have done. Still, those both amount to bypassing and re-writing the installation program, and the point of the post was that the installation program sucks from a sysadmin point of view. The fact that one is tempted to replace this lauded java installer with a home-grown solution only proves the point. How, then, is this "unfair"?
As for the wrapper, the truth is that I don't want the setup program to be run at all. Hence the aforementioned script.
You want to see something else great and in the same vein as the "/net"? Take a look at the Xpdefaults file ($HOME/.Xpdefaults or $DEST/share/xp3/Xpdefaults):
...and it goes on like that. Looks just like win.ini. Sigh.
[windows]
; This file contains the settings for the printer installation, which you
; edit with the program "spadmin".
; The following line specifies the standard printer. It must be equal to
; one of the lines in the section [devices].
device=fooprinter,SGENPRT PostScript,fooprinter
[devices]
Corgha
You didn't already know that Slashdot was a haven for clueless trolls who never look at a situation objectively, or that you really can't have a truly intelligent conversation here any more?
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
.....a tons of overweight, simple-minded Wal-Mart shoppers buying Mandrake? I mean, I'm sure that AOHell has great Linux support (yes that was sarcasm), but still, the possibilities are endless. Personally, I don't think Wal-Mart should sell software, let alone OS' (save Windows Me of course, it should ONLY be sold at Wal-Mart)
"But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong" - Dennis Miller
I have been a passionate Mandrake user for a long time so I know a bit more about what it is to be one and to be a pissed off one. . ... and they will have kde2 final"
I read:
"Retail and Download Differences
Linux-Mandrake 7.2 - Retail and Download differences
by Frederic Bastok, Mandrakesoft co-founder - October 31 2000 "
at
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/pr-kde2.php3
"All things below is related to both the European and American market. "."This represent a large part of our sales"."we need to sell products"."Those constraints and manufacturing delays forced us to be ready to send the Cd in duplication mid-October".
Apparently from what i read from users, there are many problems that lead me to think you were not ready but shipped something anyway.
well there was bugs in other mandrake releases but there was'nt this kind of "The "RC1" was idea of our marketing" things.
One of the most important thing that made me switch to linux: "it will be ready when it's finished". In other terms, no marketing drones will be there to make me swallow an unfinished product
By the way, i don't have a T1 to be able to download all kinds of rpms to have a complete distro after i bought an incomplete one.
By the way, i was going to buy the power pack because i need one of those huge program wich is in it, and i can t download it.
By the way, i almost bought suse because it's inside but i thought, "no let s stick with mandrake
You're quite right that wading through the complexities of Linux is going to be too difficult for the average non-technical man in the street. But the last two versions of Windows - Win9x and NT 4.0 - with which I have any experience aren't really a whole lot easier to set up from scratch. The only reason that those innocent folks who go down to Best Buy and purchase their first peecee can get any use out of it at all is that that new computer comes all pre-loaded with all that Windows-based software, which works OK right out of the box - at least for a few months!
After a few months, of course, thanks to the fact that the Win9x registry stays fresh and usable about as well as a dead fish on a hot sidewalk, that naive Win9x user is likely to find his his OS works less and less well, finally deteriorating to the point where you can't even get the stupid thing to start. What happens then? Does that naive user buckle down and figure out how to reinstall the works and learn what all those cryptic dialog boxes in the Windows "Control Panel" do? Hell, no, what he does is he sweet-talks one of his fellow workers or some family friend (whom he refers to, in an attempt to be flattering which merely annoys, as a "computer genius" or a "guru,") into coming over to his house and "fixing," that is to say, reinstalling the entire mess. So rather than going home after work and relaxing with a nice cold beer, instead you go do that, and even then they are never really satisfied, because thanks to MS's registry nonsense, whenever you reinstall the OS in the process you wreck all the applications the user has installed.
I hate that. Remember when all you needed to do was just backup of all the files and subdirectories under C:\WP51 or C:\ACAD? Then if the OS somehow became corrupted or you upgraded your hard drive, all you would have to do is restore those directories and maybe one or two SET statements in AUTOEXEC.BAT, and you were up and running again, with all your necessary programs working just the way they used to. Even if you hadn't made that backup before you ran into OS problems, a lot of times you could boot the malfunctioning box off a floppy, back up those program files, FDISK/FORMAT /S, restore the various program dirs, and presto, you were back in business! But no more; now everything is tied into the inscrutable, unfixable registry, so when the OS goes South you lose all your apps as well.
Also, the average PC owned by this sort of user, lacking either a SCSI card or an ethernet card, is damn near impossible to back up anyway, especially from a bootable floppy. Also if the system is hosed to the point where you need to boot off a floppy, you might or might not be able to get to the files on the hard drive, but even if you can, you can't see their long file names at all! So if the user has let his system deteriorate to where he can't even boot anymore, he generally loses all his data files (mainly old emails, nudie pix and MP3s) in the system-rebuilding process too.
I'd like to see a slashdot poll on this:
How many times have you personally been shanghaied into fixing for free some work acquaintance's bit-rotted Win9x box?
( ) never
( ) once
( ) 2-3 times
( ) 4-10 times
( ) lost count
This is the big reason why AOL, despite all its glaring defects, and despite its premium price for dial-ups, is so popular: because it has this dirt-simple installation program that works successfully 95+ percent of the time off the CD, asking the first-user none of those questions everyone knows he can't possibly answer (e.g. "Please enter your ISP's DNS address(es) in the box below"). The last version of AOL software I saw even sidestepped the moderately hairy installation of the MS TCP/IP stack by coming with its own el-bizarro "AOL adapter". And that dumbed-down, painless-to-install software is the reason AOL is usable by millions of people who would never be able to install Win9x, complete with TCP/IP, on a bare box.
No, if the average consumer had to install either Windows or Linux on a bare hard drive before using his PC, more than half of them wouldn't ever use PCs at all. The fact is that for the ordinary man in the street, personal computers these days are like cars in 1905 or radios in 1920; right now, at the current state of the art, they're both too complex and too flaky for general use. The technology just ain't there yet. Nowadays, in contrast, almost anyone can buy a car, learn to drive it, and get good utility out of it.
On the other hand, in 1910, if you liked to play with nuts and bolts, you could have a lot of fun tinkering with your car, with no more investment than a toolbox full of screwdrivers and wrenches; and any bright kid could fool around with radio sets too. Whereas with cars or radios nowadays, even smart people who are mechanically inclined don't mess with all the hermetically sealed boxes and mysterious gadgetry under the hood. Similarly when the computer industry finally cures all the glaring usability failings in home-computer software, I'll bet those computers and that software will be essentially too complicated for most people, even bright ones, to hack around with any more.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@oncentric.net
You guys shouldn't be surprised.
.com. So do you really think you're going to get this person to intelligently react to kernel error messages? You're dreaming.
Read the story nearby about the clueless woman who was sold Linux by a clueless clerk. She thought she was buying a word processor. She installed over Windows and dusted it all. She had no backups and didn't even know she should have had any. Gee, if you pour grated cheeze on a plate of spaghetti, it ends up tasting cheezier. You don't expect the whole plate of food to turn into a chunk of cheeze.
This is the consumer. AOL IS the internet. Sun IS the dot in
These people switch between Netscape and IE without knowing it, they just don't notice. They have multiple versions installed, they don't realize it. We had to make Netscape plugin installers that squirted the plugin into ALL plugin directories on the whole machine, every single browser we could find, every plugin folder, copies, about a meg apiece. That was the only way to guarantee success for these people.
These people barely understand their filesystem. File managers have moved from being multiple window (macos 1980's) to single window (windoze 1990's) because seeing more than one directory at a time totally blows their minds. Same for browser windows: most don't realize you can have more than one window open. If a new window opens to cover the existing window, they think it's the same window.
They use the SAVE command in the File menu in MS Word, but the SAVE button on the toolbar in Excel, never thinking that you can use either in both places. They learn what someone taught them and that's it.
The person they learned from knew little more, but was intent on showing off how much they knew. It's the blind leading the blind, and most people are too blind to see that their leader is blind. Those who brag the loudest have the highest credibility. And the clerks at "the software store" (walmart) know more than anybody.
These people have trouble running the Win98 installer. When they can't get the Linux installer going, they're going to get frustrated. But they don't want to look dumb. When the subject of Linux comes up later, they change the subject, just like when you mention the hot internet stock they were bragging about six months ago.
Linux is NOT a consumer product. There are way too many roots sticking out of the ground. Sticking a GUI on the installer I think did not measurably make it "easier to install". Auto-detecting hardware I think makes a big difference. The biggest problem is stuff that breaks; the GUI is pretty but yet another thing to break.
You guys don't realize the learning curve you've got under your belts. To you, it's "easy" or at least "doable" to install Linux and go use it for everything. That's because the dozens (hundreds?) of roadblocks that come up, you've somehow learned how to work around them, and you do this unconsiously. (It may have taken a dozen runs of the installer for you to learn all these gotchas.) But each of these roadblocks is a dead end for anybody who doesn't know the magical incantation to get past, or the theory behind the blah blah subsystem, or for anybody who just doesn't have the time. If you have an 80% chance of getting past a roadblock, you have a 7% chance of getting past a dozen roadblocks in a row, and that's the only way to get it installed.
Typically, I run the Win95/98 installer and I can get it working the first time. Same for MacOS. The beta MacOS X installer didn't work the first time for me, had to run it a second time. For a given machine and Linux distro, it's not surprising for me to have to run the installer a dozen times to get it right. And there's some combinations I still haven't gotten going.
This is not a consumer product. Linux has a long way to go.
in a month or two shops will run out of the 7.2 they have now, and ask for "refill". Guess what they'll get .-)
You need to make Linux easy enough to install that Joe Sixpack can do it while he's drunk by pressing one button and choosing automatic. The software should be able to repartition his hard drive, create the swap partition, install GNOME or KDE for him, and boot up into a GUI after he chooses "Linux" from LILO. Maybe in five years we can make it so that this is possible. By then, Microsoft will be as popular as Osborne Computers. ;)
But seriously, are we supposed to let the average user who shops at Wally World er ah Wal*Mart use Linux? Linux isn't consumer friendly, no version of Unix is consumer friendly. Even Apple is having a hard time getting OSX user friendly enough and out of beta fast enough to sell to consumers. Even then, it might end up a Server/Workstation OS for business and the consumers will still use the old MacOS 9.X system? :)