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Themes Removed At Apple's Behest
A couple of people wrote in noting that Themes.org has had to comply with a request from Apple that they remove the following themes: Aqua, AquaX, eMac, and eMac-GTK.
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If it weren't for MKS I'd have had to give up programming. When I was forced to use PCs (386's at the time) I had never seen anything so brain dead as the DOS command 'shell'. We had just hired a new programmer and he showed me MKS. I was stunned at how good it was. I have used it now for over 10 years (still use it when I have to use Windows) and I never found a bug in it. Not to say they don't exist, but it's the most solid DOS/Windows software I have yet to encounter.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
let me say once again. it's the logo.
if you build a theme with the OS X widgets or even one that looks exactly like platinum, nobody can complain, because, after all, Apple already lost that battle in the '80s. it's pixels. look and feel or not, it can be copied. bla bla woof woof. there are dozens of mac-like themes that do exactly this, a lot more than the 4 or so that were pulled.
but, once you use the apple logo, a copyrighted, trademarked, protected-by-pitbulls-and-lawyers piece of Apple, you have stepped over your 'fair use' or 'parody' (or whatever) boundary.
microsoft could do the same thing, but it seems they have bigger legal fish to fry, and couldn't care less if you copied their logo, let alone user experience (sic).
Apple is completely within their rights here, once again, and is doing what is legally required of a trademark holder in defending their trademark. considering it's one of the world's best recognized brands - in some surveys even moreso than Nike's - it only makes sense that they defend it more emphatically than most companies. granted, a little more effort than having one of their freshman lawyers send out a C&D letter could smooth things over considerably, but all those here (and on themes.org) crying foul over the Big Guy bullying the Poor Little Open Source movement could be a little more mature and sympathetic as well.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
a piece of piss? doesn't sound very pleasant to me :)
treke
It's always amazes me the number of people willing to jump on the anti-MS bandwagon for vague, groupthink reasons ("Windows sux") when at the same time people are willing to rush to defend Apple when they pull some idiotic stunt over their "look and feel."
I can't decide of its the silent Mac users coming out of the woodwork, or if its some variation on the "if it ain't MS, it must be acceptable" attitude.
Apple has time and again demonstrated their commitment to keeping their platform closed, and suing anyone who challenges their authority over any element of it. I'm sure it's part and parcel of their marketing-cum-legal plan to defend their 0.05% market share, but they deserve as much criticism as MS even if it is for different reasons. They shouldn't get a pass simply for being having smart haircuts, trendy eyeglasses and for not being Microsoft.
Ok, let see how many fading menus, animated icons, and other useless crap we can use on our desktop! Which hogs resources more OSX? or Win2000?
There is no spork.
Just because some people choose to emulate other popular operating systems on their Linux box, does not mean that *X GUI offerings are up to par with those operating systems.
;p.
*duh*... that should have read that *X GUI offerings are NOT up to par with those operating systems.
next time i won't post until i'm fully awake
v
If someone copies their design, then they really don't have a heck of a lot to sell to people. It's unfortunate that they feel a need to protect their design so rabidly, because of course a UI is more than just a color scheme, but if you live inside a company with that kind of a business scheme, your top worry is that someone eles is going to become a pretty as you, and so keeping people from using their color schemes is just one of the logical things to do, from their POV.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
"Look, but don't touch; touch, but don't taste; taste, but don't swallow!"
- Al Pacino, The Devil's Advocate
Where do you draw the line?
Apple got a smackdown in the late '80s for their look-and-feel lawsuit over the Windows GUI. Here are two articles that go into detail about the whole look-and-feel issue:
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TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
But...
assure a legal defense should be ensure a legal defense.
mimicking it's look and feel should be mimicking its look and feel. It's means it is, its is possessive, and there is no such word as its'.
Aqua is has ... duh.
I would get sick of it pretty fast . Fast is an adjective, but you should use an adverb here, e.g., quickly.
Regards, Grammar Nazi
Exactly. Like the rest of the Gnome/Enlightenment themes are original, not copying windoze/mac ideas... In the end you just can't tell who's plagiarizing who, and the idea of intellectual property becomes rather arbitrary. Which it is, completely artificial, a fancy way of saying it's mine and it's all mine and you can't take it. The Western people have a lot to learn.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Doesn't anyone recall the fact that they stole their entire user interface from IBM 15 odd years ago? They were so blatent in doing it that they even flew a pirate flag on top of their building. What goes around comes around.
Also, has Microsoft ever sued anybody over the numerous amounts of X themes that strongly resemble Windows? If they have, it hasn't done much good. Why anbody would want their linux box to resemble Windows is beyond me, but it seems that there are plenty of these themes.
~moofbong
If 'con' is the opposite of 'pro', what is the opposite of 'progress'?
But didn't you taste the irony of HiQ's use of "Xerox" in a Mac thread in which their "innovative" GUI is discussed?
Or did you forget that their "innovation" was to use Xerox's PARC UI?
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Mith
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I always considered M$ a wanna-be-an-apple. And this one comfirms this. M$ never decided to take over the users likes, dislikes or hacks. Directly I mean. It had always turned around and fought in the sides.
Now Apple keeps being Czar of all Czars in this area. Why the Hell they decided to go that way? Because it hits their sales? No. Because someone should be more ethic and ask Apple for permission? Neither. Because Apple wants to figth the market? Naaaaa...
Because Apple thinks always this way - it's mine! it's mine and IT'S ALL MINE!!!! I don't give it anyone. I don't even give to its own partners or brothers. I will keep it only to myself. I'll even put screws that can only be open by my screwdriver. And I will not give it to anyone. And I will sell this to anyone. Like a can of Coke. Everything inside, don't worry for nothing I didn't miss a piece. If I did miss something then it's you who are wrong, not me. And even if I'm in the damn ****, my personell is hitting the streets, and I'm losing billions, I will not give anything to anyone. I'm cute and good. And in the end people will finally find I'm right...
To old timers. Did I miss anything here? I think the main resume is here...
I am a little confused about what the legal justification is here. Generally, trademarks exist to prevent one business entity from posing as another. I don't think a reasonable person who downloads an Aqua theme is under the impression that they are getting something that Apple created. Maybe it's a copyright issue (I think the distinction is a bit blurred in this instance)?
what other fruit am I not allowed to paint pictures of? Chiquita Bananas are you listening? I saw someone putting bananas in a video game, better go tell them to knock it off. If I see something I own that visual data simply from having laid eyes on it I should be allowed to share my experience with others, an ink and paper drawing, collection of pixels, a verbal description of what I saw. This is the crazy thing that Intellectual property and copyrights have become, it is insane and violates my rights as a free thinking human being!!! they are wanting to ride the 'open source wave' but going open source for apple was because they needed to use work done by others to be able to compete in a new networked world. Apple cares not what is best for the world we live in, their image of 'creative people that uses Macs who 'think different' scares the hell out of me. Using something because the Company tells you you're a real special kind of person is another example of the Fluff that fills our heads in this strange new world. Apple is EVIL and this proves it.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
If you look at the history of Jobs/Apple, you can find where Jobs felt the 'borrowing' for the Lisa an Mac of the Xerox star was fine and wonderful.
Yet, when others do the same 'borrowing', Apple/Jobs get upset.
And, at this time, Apple *CLAIMS* the themes in question are their IP. This has not been decided by a judge, so Apple *MAY* not own said IP. Take it to a judge....
Themes.org had a choice: Stand on the principal on 'this is a protected form of expression' and go bankrupt, not to mention creating a case history of an Apple win (not on merits, but because Apple's $4 billion in the bank to spend on lawyers) *OR* publically pull these themes and let a whole bunch of ppl thump their chests over the injustice, and a smaller subset to choose not to buy Apple products.
Themes.org took the route that allows them to remain, not to mention being the easist.
If you want Themes.org to fight this, give them a legal war-chest for the fight. Oh, and be sure to pay for the defense of the authors of the disputed themes.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
<sarcastic> Yeah, who needs professional graphics, sound and office applications when you can have 20,321 editors and X Clocks
Yes, I am a Linux user and lover, but I don't delude myself
The idea is "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". Because Apple is gaining so much from OSS, it seems strange that they would sue over a few icons. It's like me giving you a house but you taking me to court for stealing $100 from you. It's your legal right, but it sure is stupid.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Seems my Mac theme is the only one left. Perhaps Apple leaves the accurate themes alone out of respect (kidding).
Or perhaps it is because I don't use the Mac logo everywhere. I may have used it once, but I'm sure I had a legal-like disclaimer.
Oddly, at one point I did have a Mac logo, a little dark grey one and now I see it has made its way into a winamp theme.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
So my use of Aqua based themes must be the only thing keeping me from buying a PowerMac Cube, eh?
This isn't so much about copyrights as it is about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. The people making/using/hosting these themes are obviously fans of Apples Aqua look and feel. Apple should be happy about it.
There is a house (hell maybe even more than one) painted in the colors of the Denver Broncos. These people are raving fans of the team, do the Broncos shout "You can't paint your house the team colors, those are our colors!," or do they have the local news do a story about them. If I were Apple, I'd have the themes downloadable from my own website!!
Anyone remember this happening last year? Why is Apple so paranoid about their themes? This will not endear them to the Open Source community. They are shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Fialar
The argument is about what he _should_ be allowed to do, not what the law currently allows him to do. You haven't responded to that part, only to the question of legality of the maneuvers.
Engineering and the Ultimate
No, I got it. I was trying to show the silly side of the argument, but you didn't taste it. I will try harder in the future.
Someone make up T-shirts with the themes in binary!
What could be Apple's motivation for this? Are they worried that people are going to start selling Macs with linux on them and claiming that it's MacOS? That's the only thing that I can think of. I guess they know the horrible truth that most Mac users are so shallow that they only buy Macs because of look of the desktop?
xerox, and it wasn't stolen.
/. story)
apple paid xerox to go through the PARC and take what they felt like using, since xerox thought there was no use for the stuff. stock options on the biggest IPO up to that point. xerox made big chunks of change for what apple 'stole'
and the pirate flag was internal apple defiance - the mac group was fighting with the apple][ group. later it was used to show their defiance of the IBM dominance of the PC market.
IBM never did their own interface until OS/2, and then it was only in order to get out from under the thumb of microsoft, something they're doing again by getting in bed with Linux (via redhat, but that's another
get your facts straight before you call anyone hypocrites and pirates.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
I was indeed being cynical, but I think gdiersing's answer was cynical as well. Or not, in which case I'm vewy, vewy afwaid *shudder*.
How to make a sig
without having an idea
Apple is STUPID! I can understand if someone was using their logo(one did, so that's ok but the aqua ones did not), but haven't they learned that Look and Feel stuff doesn't fly? anyone remember Apple trying to sue Microsoft?? What's so HIGH tech about a pixmapped gumdrops??
Gorkman
I was thinking about this for a while.
On the one hand, the themes in this case are used by computer savvy folks (likely Linux or BSD folks) who know the difference between a Mac and PC. They will not be confused.
On the other hand, there are a lot of folks who are new to computers and don't realize that a Mac is not the same as Windows is not the same as PowerPC is not the same as Linux. So Apple spends a lot of money to design a case; someone comes along and copies that case and puts them in stores. A new computer user sees lots of Apple ads, runs over to his local computer store and sees an e-machine or some other knockoff. Will he/she know the difference, or will they think it's the easy-to-use iMac?
Again, we know the difference, but many people think FreeBSD is some new Windows application to put their homepage on the Internet.
Themes are arguably different than a case design. But look at it this way: regardless of which OS you choose, the user interface is becoming similar. Someone mentioned that Windows appropriated elements of the Mac GUI. Well, enlightenment, the gnome and KDE desktops, and all manner of window managers have similar features. How does Apple differentiate itself? By its look-and-feel and themes.
I don't mean (or want) to defend Apple, but I still remember how the Linux and BSD communities reacted when MS released features in NT2000 that had long been available in Unix.
Since themes.org aparently had these on there for more than a few hours my guess is Apple is cracking down in anticipation of MacWorld in early January. Probably don't want anything resembling Aqua to be seen or cause confusion to the general public or press.
And Apple doesn't care about their rep in the Open Source sphere. They crap on their loyalest buyers all the time.
So you're saying that when I make KDE look like aqua, it will start working like a Mac....cool ;-)
This is all about look, the feel isn't being done by these themes.
Didn't Apple lose the "Look and Feel" war to Microsoft or was that just an out of court settlement? Or course, it doesn't matter if you can't afford to challenge them in court.
Many then wrongfully infer that this means you only protect from exact duplication. They forgot (or ignored until now) why Apple lost.
There may be other court decisions that allow copying look-and-feel, but not this one.ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
Apple holds onto it's designs like newly married couples. They must be paying though the nose not that they're getting a good deal they all look crap IMHO
#include <Xenph Yan>
Well, after all, it is *their* design. They paid to develop it. They came up with it in the first place. It's not like they ripped it off from someone else, as seems to be Microsoft's standard operating procedure. It seems to me that if anyone is being selfish, it is those people who want to be able to rip off anyone else's work and get away with it, who seem to think it is some kind of "right" to be able to do so. That applies to Microsoft (silly them, they think it is "innovation"). That also often (and unfortunately) applies to the Open Source community. If OS is so much better, why can't the community originate its own ideas and designs instead of copying others? Why doesn't Linux have an original, drop-dead-gorgeous, and easy to use GUI that's so intuitive your average technophobe can sit down and be immediately productive? Next year there will be a consumer UNIX based OS with a GUI like that, and a ton of big name desktop developers bowing down to worship it, but it won't be Linux. It will be Apple and BSD.
You OS types have a choice here. You can sit about griping at Apple for taking your toys away. Or you can get off your duffs, and make a GUI for Linux that will blow Apple and Aqua away. If you do the former, you are no better than Microsoft and their assinine blather about "right to innovate". If you do the latter, Linux wins. Either way, consumers have a good alternative to Windows, and Microsoft looses. It's your choice whether that alternative includes Linux.
As for the iMac clones, they came complete with salesmen that diverted people, brought in to the store by Apple ads, into buying the clones. That is not very honest.
Do the themes' names contain Aqua, Mac, or Apple in them anywhere? Yes, they do. Aqua, AquaX, eMac, and eMac-GTK were removed. They contain Apple's trademarks in their names. This is why they were removed.
Perfectly reasonable.
Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
But what about the logo? Sorry for the lack of thought, or a more detailed reply, but I am in school getting ready for a presentation in my Humanities class. :) Maybe I'll catch up with the thread when I get home.
Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.
The point is NOT the look and feel, the point is trademark. Unfortunately, under current trademark laws, Apple *HAS TO* defend its trademark. In this case, it is the Apple logo.
I believe (and am not 100% sure about this) that the only themes that were taken down were ones that used an Apple icons and logo.
If the authors of the themes had not used the Apple logo/icon, and instead put their own logos and icons, then they could do the 'look and feel' of Aqua or classic mac without getting their themes pulled.
To prove my point, what does this sentence mean:
" pending resolution of Apple's objections with the theme developers. "?? it means that there are objectionable things in the theme (the logo) that, if the thememaker removes, they can remain on themes.org.
Hey guys, I don't like the trademark system any better than anyone here. If it were up to me, i would get rid of every f***ing patent, trademark, and copyright there is. However, let's not blame a company for defending what they consider their property. Instead, let's try to create an environment that removes the necessity of defense.
here is some analysis of the actual ruling in the apple v. microsoft case. please review it.
please note that it indicates that "[r]emarkably, neither the district court nor the Ninth Circuit ever resolved the ultimate question of real interest in look and feel cases. "
additionally the much-ballyhooed case was a resolution of the licensing dispute between apple and microsoft. apple didn't think that microsoft should be able to use any part of the mac desktop that they felt like. microsoft and the courts disagreed.
the most important bit of this is simply that the desktop metaphor is not defendable.
whether the overall look and feel of a product is defendable or not is not addressed by this ruling. just the desktop metaphor in the particular instanciation of windows 1.0-3.0 and the original mac desktop.
to the topic at hand, apple has dumped years of work into the widgets and engines that drive osx. they are not an open-source house. period. they don't have to be. i'm sorry if you don't agree, but there it is. they built it, somebody copied it.
open source or no, if you copied a term paper or cs class problem set from another student in college, you'd be tossed out on your ass.
how is this so different?
8===D
It is part of my unique user interface and cost me all sorts of time, trouble, blood, sweat, tears, and lost lives to bring it to you. You may use it if you buy my new ASCII based interface. By pressing this button, you tell my interface to be happy. If you use it in your interface for the same purpose, I'll sue you! I swear I will.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I don't think I would agree that aqua completely originated from them. I work for a company clled Teletutor a while back (they got bought out and I got layed off), and we had buttons like the "Aqua" blue buttons about 2.5 to 2 years or so. Unfortunately I don't have any screen shots to prove it. The button would even light up when you went through them. Went went trhough a few design changes during that time. I don't agree that they own the Aqua design. I think they just stole the ideas from different places.
Remember, Apple is only a bully, and a wanna-be Microsoft.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
I don't think Apple "stole" the GUI from Xerox. Xerox was stupid enough to give it away. BTW, I believe there was an actual license involved. (I read about this way back about 1987 when Apple sued MS over the GUI.)
Apple did invent a lot of the original GUI in the Mac and Lisa.
Microsoft happily copied Apple's genuine innovations in GUI design. And again, there was a license involved. Similar to Xerox, Apple (Scully) was stupid enough to give it all away to MS, which is why the lost the lawsuit.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
There is a whole lot more to look and feel than a few bitmaps of widgets and a color scheme. Apple is just a stingy spoilt brat. They'd sue mirrors for look and feel infringement.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Right. Apple sued Microsoft for the Windows look a few years ago, and lost.
Even though I think Apple's wrong here, I can see why they're doing it; it appears their default risk is very high, and they are scratching for every penny.
There are also plenty of themes that copy MicroSoft's, including the default appearance of KDE, and also the default appearance of most non-themed toolkits such as FLTK, FOX, and JX.
Yet MicroSoft did not threaten anybody over this!
We are all damn lucky the meglomaniac who is in charge is Bill Gates. Just imaging Steve Jobs in that position! (or Scott McNealy, for that matter...)
not having access to the themes (any more) or the C&D letter, i can't check, but if you're correct, and these themes don't have the logo, they must contain some other elements that Apple has trademarked or copyrights to.
hell, it may be the names - Aqua is (tm) Apple, as is Mac. to avoid these themes bringing confusion in the marketplace as "the Aqua interface" and "the Mac interface" (both things Apple hopes to be very specifically theirs and nobody else's) and "the Aqua/Mac user experience" might be the whole point of this latest round of C&Ds. again, nobody but the authors (and recipients of the nasty letters) can say for certain.
the _last_ round was about the logo, at least. i had hoped the theme authors had learned their lesson last time...
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
For themes and schemes resembling Apple's designs, take a look at http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/kaleido scope/schemetotheme.
So what if Aqua is NeXT? Apple bought NeXT, so it owns their IP, too.
Apple lost their lawsuit with Microsoft because Apple had already licensed some of their GUI and related technology to Microsoft, and the court found that, in light of the agreement, Microsoft didn't infringe on Apple's copyrights, patents, and trade dress.
These themes do, howerver, infringe on Apple's trade dress, and Apple has a legal obligation to do something about them or lose its legal protection.
Please, please, please, could someone explain to us all the differences between patents, copyright, trademarks, trade dress, and other forms of intellectual property protection. Nobody here seems to get it.
Your argument would mean I could copy my favorite photographer's photo book, change a pixel or two, and then give them away as my own. This is more than "look and feel"--the theme was an attempt to build an exact replica of the Aqua interface.
Imagine, an eOne (iMac lookalike) in a store window running this theme. Confusion. That's why apple defends their interfaces so hard.
OS X is a highly anticipated operating system. There's a great deal of unknowing people out there that have the belief that OS X will actually ship on Intel. Now add that to say, an unscrupulous shop that decides to display their latest 1.2 GHz Athlon systems in the store window running Linux, Enlightenment, and one of the Aqua themes and you've got a recipe for confusion and brand dilution. On the outide the themes resemble Aqua quite a bit... It'd take a customer who didn't know better a little while to discover that that wasn't indeed Apple's operating system. And for all the hype it's received so far, if any of them thought that what they were looking at was OS X, and from my playing with it, the Aqua theme doesn't even touch OS X's polished appearance, they might walk away with a bad taste in their mouth for Apple.
Yes, the courts have ruled that one can make an interface that has elements resembling those of another interface. But this is wholesale copying... There's nothing added. The only way to differentiate between them is that one's a lot more polished than the other...
Next thing you will hear is that Apple invented the desktop. Oh wait, didn't they already claim that! How can Mac OSX succeed outside of geekdom? This could well be written down as "Apple's last stand" IMO. Also does it run off FreeBSD 3.2? If thats not been updated then its pretty old (considering the latest is one full version above it). Why did they remove the Aqua theme? Look and feel is something that many have pointed out to be unenforceable. Hope VA just removed them only to appease Apple whilst they consult there lawyers, hopefully we will see Aqua and the others that are legally OK return to the web.
IMHO if you're a vegetarian and miss the taste of meat, it's only about practice and health, not belief. The belief behind vegetarianism, that you shouldn't hurt living beings, doesn't quite fit in with craving for the taste of dead animals.
I agree that a Mac theme on Linux can be a practical choice. But if a Mac user wants to become a 'Linux believer ;-)' I see
this idea of a 'migration path' only as a hindrance.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I'd certainly be pissed if I had spent any significant amount of time creating a work of art and somebody grabbed it for their own use without my permission.
Artwork takes time, folks, just like writing code does, and you need to start respecting that effort and the original author's (or company's) wishes.
...And it is commonly said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Hah!! -- Eeyore
It's always so nice to hear from people whose last experience with a Mac was during the Reagan presidency.
A lot has happened since then, pal, and it's a heck of a lot easier to muck about, extend, and control your user environment in today's Macs (even the non-Unix-ish ones) than it is in Windows. Is it as open as Open Source? Of course not. But then, it's not a network or a device developer's platform, either. OS X in fact is as easy to extend, with lots and lots of hooks for customization and...yes, whiny people, a command line.
However, no computers today are as easy to mess around with as Apple ][s were. They are much more complicated...the OS no longer fits in 20K, if you hadn't noticed. The "My C-64 was 133T and the XXX is lame" argument has gotten pretty silly, and it's sillier than ever now.
Using a Mac is not like fingerpainting. It's a bit more like acrylics--not as hard as oils, but with some practice and learning, you can do pretty amazing stuff. But yes, you do have to go read a little developer documentation first.
Aqua has no copy of the Apple logo. (And, yes, I just checked).
Don't know for the other themes, but I seem to remember that the one theme actually containing a logo was previously removed.
I understand why Apple would want to have these themes taken off, but to say that you shouldn't "copy" because someone put hours into producing it is ludicrous. The point of doing research is to produce results that make further results in the future easier to handle. Some people like Apple's results on the interface, and therefore would like to add those results to there own ingenuity. Why isn't Microsoft getting rid of the windows themes?
Just some info...
They did not buy 25%. They bought $150 million worth. A big difference. (This is all well documented in news.)
What is the worth of 25% of (at the time was) a $10 billion company? Vastly bigger than any other PC maker. In about '88'ish they spun their software out into a seperate company (Claris) that was bigger than Compaq. (Imagine that.)
BTW, MS did make a very tidy profit on their investment. Apple stock was way down at the time, and two years later was 10 times as high. ($12 to $120)
Also FWIW, a rumor, the reason MS bought $150m of Apple stock? They finally got caught with their hand in the till stealing secrets from Apple's R&D. Just a rumor at the time it all happened.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
"I meant to do that" - Pee Wee
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
A motorcycle is a machine. Last I knew, you could not copyright a machine. Artwork is different. Your analogy is wrong.
my thinking is the /. story icon (and places like ZD and C|net using apple's logos for news items) is considered "Fair Use"
after all, i can't talk about a company (good or bad) without using their name, which is a trademark itself. and the press has certain leeway in these matters.
note the tiny R-in-a-circle. that's permission enough for most folks.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Intellectual property is blatantly stupid
I don't know that I buy that argument, even with your 'blatantly stupid' examples.
Intellectual property, when used correctly, is a very valuable thing to have. IP, when used incorrectly (also known as "abuse") is the bad thing. What really needs to happen is that the mechanisms that allow companies/individuals to claim IP have to be revised so that they do not allow companies/individuals to abuse their powers as owners of that IP.
I shouldn't be able to I own the concept of all round objects greater than 1mm in size. I should be able to own a particular wheel design that improves traction on slippery surfaces. But what the process is letting me do is say I own the concept of improved traction on slippery surfaces, which is what leads to abuse.
Let's reform the IP process; let's not throw it out.
--
liB
> The Apple ][ was an amazing machine - it inspired a generation of hackers. (I still have one.)
:-) Heck, it was pretty easy to remember most of the 6502 opcodes!
:)
Yes, the reason it was a such a great machine, was that a person could comprehend the WHOLE machine. From the "funky" bitmap graphics addresses (was linear from left to right, but not sequential from top to bottom), right down to the disk drive controller, and using tricks to read "illegal" byte containing 2 consequitive zeros. D5 AA 96 is forever burned into my memory.
ApplePC - one of the best emulators around. Even has mockingboard support !
Long live Aquatron, Lode Runner, and Rescue Raiders
Having a theme modeled after a another platform's environment is only a compliment. What are they going to do next? Say we can use tranparencies in our Window managers? Enlightenment did transparencies before OS/X, they have no right! Also wasn't there a Windowmaker theme that came out a year ago that looked a lot like Aqua? I say, keep the themes up at themes.org, let them try to sue. If they do we should talk to Xerox, after all they were the originators of the GUI.
They then spend their remaining $99,998 of their $100,000 product budget on marketing and distribution and sales reps for BigCorp Bar which becomes a big seller. People think that Foo is just a cheap knock-off of BigCorp Bar and since you can't make it as cheaply as they can, your "knock-off" is even more expensive.
BigCorp, Inc. got all their development costs for free and now has a successful product. You are out of business, lost 5 years of your life and $100,000.
Of course, if you think engineers and inventors and innovators don't deserve being paid but marketing and sales do, then, by all means, think intellectual property is blatently stupid. Personally, I'd prefer to reward the people who actually create something.
They toiled to build a system that integrated the ideas of Douglas Engelbart for a graphical user interface ...
They quote Bob Taylor, but I don't see him claiming to be the creator. And when did magazine retrospectives become "proof" of anything, anyway? :^P
Hmmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Is KDE (or GNOME) really so difficult to use that we need the Aqua theme?
Ok, here's another stupid question...
Does putting the Aqua theme on KDE make it easier to use?
As I learned it back in '84 (Apple Human Interface Guidelines -- which Apple seems to pay less and less attention to everyday.) the good of a human interface goes way deeper than the pretty icons attached to the widgets.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
The reason why is simple: MS bought 25% shares in Apple to save them from going under and they did this before the Imac and the colored cases came out. They will not go after the hand that saved them from bankruptcy. This brings forth another thought...Maybe Bill is using Mac to try and kill off this young upstart called Linux?
Or how about Mozilla or IE? Is it OK for IE to ape the Aqua look as it does now, but Mozilla because of Apple's legal department?
Or similarly, painting a forgery of some great work, and selling it as a replica, not as the real thing.
It is an attempt to make something that looks very similar (or even identical), but is itself it's own unique creation.
I don't know if this is legal or not, but I sure as hell hope it is.
"Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
Get 'em while you can!
I don't see at all how either Qt, Motif, and GTK+ look any less professional than Windows MFC and the MacOS GUI. Could you please state your reasoning for your beliefs?
The lack of consistancy is my main gripe about these toolkits. Whilst they've certainly come along in leaps and bounds over the last few years, there still remain several areas where components behave in a way that doesn't match the rest of the system.
GTK+ is themeable to the point that you can more or less make it look like anything you want. AFAIK it provides all the relevant widgets that Win MFC does. Win MFC is customizable to what degree? Well, you can change the colours of a few things, if you want.
Sure it provides all the same widgets, I never said it didn't. As for theming, under Windows try Windowblinds. It allows you to change the look and feel of the GUI.
And have you ever tried programming a Windows application without using a GUI builder?
Yup, using direct API calls and resource files. But I can't see why I'd want to when I could use Delphi/C++ Builder instead...
Let me tell you... MFC programming is some of the ugliest programming that I have ever seen. Weird types such as LPSTR, having to call macros like BEGIN_MESSAGE_MAP, etc... make it very ugly and very unintuitive (not to mention hard on the wrists of programmers - why did MS make all their keywords capitalized?).
Very true, MFC sucks which is why I don't use it ever. There's no need to use it though, use the VCL toolkit instead which is much better, and makes programming Windows apps a piece of piss. There's nothing forcing you to use MFC, it's not integral to Windows after all.
Hmm.. I guess Apple made all their designs, just from the top of their heads
*cough* XEROX PARC RIPPIN BASTARDS *cough*
this is ridiculous, apple should have been told to goto hell
Yeah, I mean, why should Richard Stallman be able to tell me I can't close my source and sell it proprietary? I mean, that's violating my rights to copy anything, claim it's mine, and sell it. Clearly, the GNU license is the work of pro-IP corporate shills.
OK, Mr "Higher Authority", you forgot to mention that YANAL, because you are more than obviously moronically ignorant about US trademark law. Head, ass, remove, please.
Someone pointed out in a reply to another post I made in this section that the names of the themes being removed are all Apple trademarks.
Then I realized that OSX2, another Aqua-like theme, wasn't listed in the removed themes.
Go to the global theme search page and look for "Aqua". There are a heck of a lot of Aqua themes for various window/desktop managers.
So was it the names of the themes Apple objected to? Why is Apple being selective with their removal requests? Are they just not aware of the other Aqua-like themes still available, or is it something else? And I ask again; why isn't Apple trying to contact the theme creators?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Mirror Mirror ony the wall who's the fairest of them all!!!
Sourceforge.net!!!!
Yey!!! Mirror!! Mirror!!
Heh, I wouldn't make money off of giving away free copies of windows...yeah Shouting to the crowd, FREE WINDOWS FREE WINDOWS yeah the money really matters
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
When the Japanese motorcycles imitated the look of the Harleys they were not exact duplicates. What they Japanese were trying to market was the feel of riding that type of motorcycle. However, the end product was a motorcycle not a feeling. If the sound was the end product (say, maybe a song, maybe like a Metallica song) I think the arguement would be much stronger that it *can* be protected.
A lot more goes into a GUI design than picking an attractive color scheme. When someone takes a GUI and copies it, file-for-file or just conceptually, they are duplicating the feeling and hundreds of hours of research and testing. When they duplicate the feeling, they are duplicating the actual product. In this case, the product *is* the feel and design.
I think the Apple design group is probably thrilled that people like their designs so much, but Apple is a business and they do have a right to control their *products* however they please.
Now look at what the Aqua theme copies from Apple. To use a musical analogy, this is a different performance of the same musical work. If Aqua were music, then Apple would be owed royalties for the Aqua theme, fair and square.
I have written a truly remarkable program which this sig is too small to contain.
Ever wonder what makes Apple tick? I mean they know that these themes have been out forever, why today? Why do they wait months and then just randomly decide to go apeshit? Their behavior is quite perplexing.
My guess is that someone in upper management had a bad commute to work, maybe got a speeding ticket or something, and decided to take it out on the theme community.
Don't get me wrong, I love Apple and all...in fact I am authoring this on my G3, but sometimes they can be such massive wankers.
Need a site to host the Aqua themes? I am not afraid of Apple.. I'll setup a webpage and offer the themes via http and ftp. jerryn@nfn.homeip.net
But recovering alcoholics don't go out and have near beers or alcohol free wines.. I think that is the point the person was trying to make..
UPS Sucks
Realy, isnt this the same type of thing that had apple going bankrupt in early 90's. When apple/Mac Systems came originally, they WERE supirior to there IBM counterparts in most features (at least the ones that the consumer could see). They couldnt sell simply because they had lousy marketing. Of course i was only about 7 when macs first came out sooo....
Hash Bang Slash Bin Slash Bash
oops... too early in the morning
treke
But you can copywrite it no? Or do I merely imagine the file called "The Microsoft Sound(tm).wav" exists?
,i>I use Secret Recipe #1 for my lemonade. Jim Bob analyzes the chemical structure, duplicates it, calls it Secret Recipe #2, and starts marketing it under that name. Should I have the right to sue him for stealing my intellectual property?
Well, if he pattented his lemonade, actually yes. That's called reverse engineering. If he can prove that you performed tests on his lemonade prior to your procuring "Secret Recipe #2", he can and should sue you. If he doesn't have a pattent, and it is a trade secret, then you have decided that your lemonade is so superior to anyone else that even after your pattent runs out no one will successfully duplicate a glass of lemonade equal in quality that pattenting it will only hurt you. If someone develops the same "lemonade technology" then, unfortunately for you, more power to them.
Jim Bob comes over to my stand one day and starts talking with my customers, trying to get them to come over to his stand and try his own Secret Recipe. Should I have the right to sue him for manipulating my customers?
Well, if you own the property you have the right to have him removed for trespassing, soliciting your customers (as long as it is posted), and potential harrassment if he fails to leave when you ask him. Immediately off of your property, he can do whatever he wants. This is why there are so many people standing on the other side of the street from an abortion clinic protesting abortion normally, and not in the front lobby.
--
You say you want a revolution?
While I don't disagree with your logic, I think that Apple may be afraid of losing sales on the PowerPC side of things. With LinuxPPC available, Apple may fear that they will lose future OS sales to one of these Unix variants. Currently, LinuxPPC runs faster than OS-X, and if LinuxPPC looks and acts like OS-X, then they could lose *lots* of OS upgrade sales
Doh!
Apple has to protect its copyright's, so that it can maintain them. If they didn't enforce their copyrights, they could possibly lose future battles against copyright infringers that were actually doing something "serious" against them, like making iMac clones and selling them as real iMacs.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
Perhaps it was written in the thoughts of Themes.org. Like you don't need to have ethics and morals.. but you should anyway. JUst like the teenage, "I need _______ or i'll never survive" =)
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ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Carbon under the public beta is so slow because there is so much debug code in it. MacOS Rumors is just reporting on the latest build, noting that Photoshop runs about 25% faster because of removed debug code and further optimization for the G4. I checked with a developer friend who does have the latest build, and he says on his machine it's closer to 30-35%.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
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Not my president.
Bingo. Your post deserves +5 insightful.
These themes do not and can not cause any confusion in the minds of customers. They do not falsely represent themselves as Apple products. Therefore, the whole trademark issue simply does not apply.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
"Smalltalk had a three-button mouse and pop-up menus, in contrast to the Mac's menu bar and one-button mouse. Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows brought to the front. "
(This was written by Bruce Horn, who worked at PARC and Apple at the time)
Granted, my memory was faulty (it was Atkinson, not Hertzfeld), but if you had overlapping windows that didn't redraw, it would be pretty crappy. The Star implementation sounds like a prototype. What Apple did is a finished product.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
The simple fact is that the themes in question violate Apple trademarks and copyrights. If someone did the same with VA Linux logos and widgets, VA Linux would do the very same thing.
Also, note the wording on the Themes.org site: they say that they "decided to accommodate Apple's request," not that Apple had sent them a cease and decist and would have sued their asses off if they had left them up. There's a big difference, but even at that point, Apple would have every right and legal responsibility to order the removal of their logo and trademarked/copyrighted names such as "Aqua" and "Mac".
This is a very reasonable request. Note also that Apple did not order the complete removal of all Mac OS themes, just the ones that contain their copyrighted and trademark logos and names.
I think Apple is being very reasonable, and should be applauded for not taking the makers of the themes in question, to court. As much as that may piss of open source advocates, protecting and defending your copyrighted and trademarked materials is imperative in modern business.
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"Cogito Eggo Sum: I think, therefore, waffle."
They didn't try to PATENT the sound. They tried to TRADEMARK the sound of the engine. And you sure as heck can get a trademark on a specific sound (MGM and the lion roar, NBC and the ding-DING-ding chime). However H-D withdrew their trademark request before it was decided.
Go here for more information.
If OS is so much better, why can't the community originate its own ideas and designs instead of copying others?
Simple. If a design looks good, why not copy it? I don't understand why everything must be different. Why should we create something new just to be new and different? It doesn't make sense.
Regarding their "development" of the design. Give me a break. Aqua is only a standard GUI with some lines in the windows and bubbles for buttons. There's nothing innovative, it just looks good. So don't give me this crap about "stealing" a design they came up with in the first place. I don't see you complaining because everything uses windows, scroll bars, and push buttons that happens to be 3D beveled, a la every GUI ever. Give me a break.
Apple should be happy that people are making themes based on their products. As long as there's no profit being made, and no profit being lost, these theme-makers should be embraced for bringing recognition to Apple style. They shouldn't be given orders to Cease and Desist
No joke. And now that public Linux companies' stock prices are going to more reasonable levels, trolls like that one are going on and on about how Open Source isn't commercially viable. Sheesh, give me a break.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Apple would sue a kid who wore a Halloween costume that bore some resemblance to their interface.
Yeah, that really ruined this year's Halloween for me.
Thats nice and all, but Microsoft, Lotus, and Borland are all making money off their designs. Themes.org is not making money from them (directly), so it should be someone's right to do whatever they want with something as long as they arent making money off of it or slandering it.
What if you tried to do something like this on your own website? would you take this kind of bullshit from apple?
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
The case does not involve Apple trademarks; none of the themes taken down had Apple's logo. Actually, I'll go further: they did not use any Apple trademarks, infringe any Apple copyrights, nor unlawfully use any idea or invention patented by Apple. In other words, they are themes that just look like Apple's Aqua.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
For those who are crazy about macintosh themes, check this link here. It's an FTP site that has a variety of different themes including a few Aqua themes. I suppose that macintosh hasn't seen them yet, otherwise they'd be getting requested to remove their material as well.
Well companies like Apple spent a lot of time and money doing UI research and making their products look and feel as nice and consistant as possible.
This is why MacOS 10 users have to hack their system to restore the look-and-feel they had in version 9 of their OS? Doesn't seem too consistent to me.
Let Apple have their way, their "look" is about the only thing they have left. The only thing worth admiring is how they managed to sell over priced pieces of clear blue plastic.
The issue here is that Apple realizes that only the form is what gets their new OS attention. Having that face on other products, dilutes the impact theirs would have.
In other words, if you can get the same look on a better OS or machine what would the public want what they are offering?
Its their stuff, let them lock it up with the law. Apparently they never realized that their viciousness to the community is what nearly bankrupted them before.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I agree completely with your characterization of Apple. What is a bit disturbing is that Microsoft is much less eager to use threats of lawyers against the user and street-level programmer communities. Was their ever a cease-and-desist letter written about FVWM-95? Apple is a thick with idle esquires, and has generally acted like a bigger prick than Microsoft for most of its career. If Microsoft is the hegemonic, arrogant and self-justifying U.S.A. of OS' and applications, Apple is the vicious brutal third-world dictatorship whose destructiveness is mostly limited by their weakness.
> Time for a new GNU boycott? That might hit Darwin hard, and thus indirectly Apple and their OS-X. Would be well deserved.
I don't think it would hit Apple very hard at all (it didn't last time). Who it would hit would be Apple users.
At the time of the last FSF boycott, I'd just spent several thousand dollars on a Macintosh system, and all that the boycott meant for me was that "oh, well, I can't participate in this GPL software thing - I don't have the right hardware, never mind". There was no way that I (and I suspect many others) had the resources or desire to switch architectures because of the boycott, even thoug I wasn't happy with Apple's lawsuit. Result: a loss to the open source software community as I went and did other things (including compiler stuff not related to gcc). And my next machine was a Macintosh too, as all my stuff had been developed on tools that only worked on Macintosh, rather than, say, gcc. No harm to Apple at all that I can see.
Regardless of any merits of the who is ripping off/bullying who, don't EVER do something like a boycott (or any other sort of protest) without first having at least some idea of who you are actually going to affect (first rule of effective protest).
corporations taking the word of financial advisors instead of first realizing that their theme is cool and maybe licensing it to everyone would be a good idea, and letting everyone else have their stupid theme. or do these 'theme pirates' have super hax0ring powers that will destroy apple? are they the reason the latest quarterly results were low? good lord!!!
and i was just getting ready to run out and buy an imac this weekend and put yellow dog linux on it, oh well.. i'll stick with amd.
running the aqua theme, you cannot tell linux from mac's latest beast
I guess it goes to show it's always been about eyecandy with apple, not good programming
If somebody made something that "looked" like my program, but contained none of the functionality, I would consider it a compliment.
And yes. I am a developer.
It is more complex than this.
Apple originally made dozens (maybe even over a hundred) claims against Microsoft.
Because, previously, Apple had stupidly licensed Microsoft, most of their claims were thrown out by the judge. Only 4 claims remained. (Don't remember what they were. Go read InfoWorld about 1987.)
They lost those four claims. And, although I would have loved to see MS have to pay big bucks, I'm very glad that Apple lost on these particular claims. (I wish they could have won some of the other claims though, but that's just their own stupidity.)
In fact, Apple has done so many stupid things that it is just amazing that they are still in business. Of course, Spindler, and his wonderful Inventory Control almost managed to kill Apple without any help from MS. The only reason Apple survived so many of their stupid mistakes is simple. Buckets of cash to pour onto it. For a long, long time, Apple always kept about $1 billion in cash on hand, and only a tiny amount of long term debt -- enough so that they could operate for an entire year without selling anything. A very envious balance sheet.
Back to the topic... Lotus also lost a lawsuit against Borland involving Borland's Quattro spreadsheet (vs. Lotus 123) over the fact that Quattro had a macro system that enabled you to load in and make Quattro exactly emulate 123's keystroke sequences -- which require quite an investment of learning on the part of users. This was much more a functional issue than a look & feel issue and was widely regarded at the time to be bad news in Apple's suit against MS -- and it was.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
And what the hell is the big deal anyway. The interface of the Mac OS is property of Apple, and if someone tries to copy it, bad luck to them. It's Apple's property and they can do as they like: it's called capitalism people, and you all wouldn't be so well off without it.
Cheers,
Daniel.
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Daniel Zeaiter
daniel@academytiles.com.au
http://www.academytiles.com.au
ICQ: 16889511
I agree!!! Apple is a bunch of reddish purples!!!
It should be noted that the word "aqua" described a light blue color for several centuries before anyone ever heard of Dipshit Steve Jobs. Thank you.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
" I should be able to own a particular wheel design that improves traction on slippery surfaces. "
I think that herein lies the real source of this constant bickering we endure over IP. We are divided into two camps. On one side we have the people who think that the above statement is true, and on the other side are the people who think the above statement is false.
This is the real argument and it is the one we should focus on if we want to resolve anything. Personally I think it's just a matter of different principles and beliefs, I doubt that any amount of arguing is going to change either side.
Really, when I step back and look at it objectively, I don't know who is right; It's a tough issue.
Sigs are awesome huh?
VA Linux made the correct decision here in complying with Apple's very reasonable request to remove these themes from their website. As well as avoiding potential legal trouble, the fact is that it would have been unethical for them to allow people to download these themes.
Why? Well companies like Apple spent a lot of time and money doing UI research and making their products look and feel as nice and consistant as possible. To then have someone spend half an hour knocking up a copy for another operating system simply means that their intellectual property has been appropriated and that their time and effort in making their product has been wasted.
The "big two" GUIs for Linux really need to move away from being copyware and start to develop their own "look and feel". At the moment they're playing catchup with Apple and Microsoft, and it's no wonder that people want themes that echo these GUIs on their Linux boxes. Like them or loathe them, nobody can deny that OSX and Windows have slick, professional desktops that show a consistancy and elegance still lacking in KDE or Gnome.
Perhaps as these projects mature more emphasis will be placed on the look and feel rather than functionality. Until then it's not suprising that people are jealous of more mature desktops and want to have them on their machines.
You can't possibly justify removing personal modifications to an windowing environment from a community website.
Did the themes actually contain trademarked words or logos?
hahah - i posted this story to slashdot yesterday, but it was rejected. now i'm waiting for someone else to post it and it to be accepted
-Jae
'why that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard..'
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
What every happend about the MSFT request for slashdot to delete those Kerberos posts?
As a Newton user, I know you've got THAT right.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
You'd think Apple would get a clue at some point. Everybody keeps trying to copy or imitate their UI (well, GUI anyway...no one seems to want a no button mouse...) whether it be big time companies or themes on *nix/Win*.* (ssssh! let me finish..) At some point I hope they realize that they DO have advertising muscle, market recognition, etc. and actually sell a UI product SEPARATE from the OS/hardware combo they keep trying to push. If a product is good, why not capitalize? who knows what would have happened if the UI on the AppleIIgs /Macs would have been available on x86 architecture as well. (haha)
Left IS right!Sinisters unite!
I figured it would take several hours (or days) atleast for the mirrors to update. So I just hurried and downloaded ALL of the OSX style themes from the mirror sites.
The target...... Micro$oft for its windows thing. Apple managed to extract, I believe, a royalty for the earlier windows thingies.. I might be wrong (Anyone know fershore?)
Apple is paranoic-facist about its prettyness. Seethru clone boxen -- bad. Trashcans -- bad. Aquatheme -- *sigh - gettin boring apple* bad.
I wonder if someone ever told apple that immitation was the best form of flattery.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Apple used to be a bunch of hackers, but now...
Sad...
verry sad...
... that is copyright enforceable?
...
Shouldnt be too hard to modify the eMAC eTheme to give it another fruit say an orange or a grape. Or considering Apples bullying I'd say a coconut or a banana would be appropriate.
My dislike of Apple the company was at an all time low and I was considering a dual processor Mac purchase with OS X. Now I guess I'd rather get _anything_ else than a Mac.
The number of the beast
Has anyone criticizing Apple actually looked at the theme they are complaining about? Here's a link to a screenshot. See it for yourself. Notice the blue apple and the Mac smiley-face icon on the menu bar at the top of the screen. Those are Apple trademarks and if they don't defend them against every infringement then they lose those trademarks.
Not to mention the fact that the casual onlooker might see a computer running this theme and think it is actuall running Mac OS X (not so far fetched since it has the official Apple logo on it and everything). That user will also see the crappy icons at the bottom that don't look half as cool as the real OS X dock, the non-translucent menus/windows, and the windows that don't "slurp" into the dock when iconized and will come away thinking that Aqua sucks when of course they were never looking at the real Aqua in the first place.
Apple clearly doesn't want people mistaking these half-assed themes with the real Aqua which took a lot of effort, design and engineering to build (unlike these cheap rip-offs).
Apple has always been protective of what they deem to be their designs, their 'look and feel'. Remember the long running lawsuit against MS for Windows being derived from Mac OS? They've brought litigation against groups that sought to use a logo like their multi-colored apple, iMac-styled cases, etc...
What I find interesting is that, to my recollection, there were never any such issues with NeXT, given how it is often Jobs who drives the designs. There were a number of 'NeXT-like' themes back when NeXT existed, and nary a peep from NeXT about them.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
With at least 6 very good, stable window managers and hundreds of high quality themes, I really don't care.
Apple has the right to protect its creation, I believe, even if it's not a logo or a phrase. They've chosen to do it, and why would you blame them? It's not like they're protecting their ownership of the "blue" color.
You can still get the themes somewhere else. No one can keep data completely out of the internet, no matter how forbidden it is.
Flavio
"Now... Apple... Steve, baby, talk to me. Why is this wrong? Why can't I and all the other people out there who like both their Macs and their Linux actually have them both? For that matter, why support MKLinux and then not let those of us who use it or another distro make it look and feel as Mac like as we want? We are running it on your machines."
In a few months (or even now, if you want to play with the beta version), you will have both. You have your aqua interface and it is running on top of your *nix. It's called OS X.
One of the reasons Apple has a problem with things like your statement is because MacOS (and it's relevent GUIs) is their baby. They did not spend countless dollars over the years to produce these systems just to have someone else steal it and use it for free (yes, this is capitalism here).
They want people to buy their computers so they invest a lot of money to make an OS that will cause people to want to use those computers. They do not invest that money so that anyone who wants to can have a machine that looks and maybe acts like a mac but is not a mac. They are a hardware company. If it becomes that any POS $300 home-brew box can look and act like a Mac, then what will make the consumer want to buy a Mac? If Apple allows people to do this, they will die.
So, Apple requested Themes.org to remove the relevant themes. Whether they did it in a nice way or not is unknown to us. But they did it to save their butts.
If you must have have your aqua GUI running on *nix, then buy a Mac and get OS X PB(or wait a few months for the final version of OS X and buy a Mac w/ it bundled as the OS).
A little note...I have used Linuxppc and now I am using OS X PB, and I must say that OS X PB is awesome! Any linux user that has a Mac should seriously consider getting it.
Just MNSHO...out.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Intellectual Property is greed - getting the most for an idea. It is all about profit. Big business screw people to get a bigger bottom line.
WIPO.org.uk - nothing to do with the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO.ORG).
Interesting.. I didn't know that.
Even so, it's still much more open than it could be (or also than Apple is obligated to make it).
I have been using the Aqua theme for a very long time now... Pretty much since it was first released around the time when Apple first released the screenshots of Aqua and MacOSX.
The GUI is great, the interface is clean and easy to follow and its pure eye candy. I have quick and easy access to pretty much all the Enlightenment features without having a heap of buttons cluttering up my desktop or the title bars of my applications. I use it because I like it... But Apple needs to realize that its not the functionality thats being used, its purely the eye candy. The rest of the Aqua functionality is sitting pure and pretty where it belongs... On a hunk of junk known as a G4.
I don't buy Apple PC's because I don't like the way the PC's themselves work. I don't like the way the PC's function or even the way you navigate the file system. I'm not saying its bad, I'm just saying I personally don't like it.
If Apple released OS 10 for other platforms (x86 being the most obvious) then I still wouldn't buy it. I don't like the way the OS works, but I do like the way it looks. I played with a beta release on a friends G4 and as much as I like the look of it, the feel of it turned me off.
Okay... So what if Apple recall these GUI imitations, it wouldn't take much to alter the colors and slightly modify the widgets and then Apple couldn't touch it.
I just think that Apple is being completely pig headed about something that isn't really going to affect their sales at all. A theme for a competitive OS windowing system isn't going stop people buying MacOS-X, the OS itself is whats going to do it. Regardless of how it looks, its still a P.O.S IMHO.
pardon the digression in the way of amazon.com...
Wow. That's hitting the nail right on the head, as to the issues surrounding IP. You have taken an ideal statment, and pointed out the real dillema facing current Intellectual Property law.
The company that I work for designs many pattentable proccesses and devices. Sometimes we pattent a process, sometimes we pattent a device - these are very distinct differences. When you pattent a device, you are the only one who can make a device which performs the funcionality described under the pattent. When you pattent a process, anybody can produce the product, but you are the only one allowed to produce the product in your pattented manner.
With software, you produce a finished product - a device,or tool. But you really take and construct it through a carefully developed process. If noone has come up with this way, or this product before, then you have truly created something new. The problem with software, however, is that the instruction set is small enough that it is intuitively easy to see how someone created "one click shopping" or, in this case "a really bitchin' GUI." Thousands of people have done it, a portion of it, or can see how to do exactly what you did. There is a necessity to prevent copycat coders to instantaneously produce an identical product, claiming it as their own. Face it, Amazon (in an old case) beat everybody to the punch - albeit a stupid punch. Obviously, amazon couldn't pattent selling books, obviously amazon couldn't pattent a quality of care, but they had obviously produced something which when examined, everyone would want. They had designed something really cool. Anyways, yes...
I now don't like what amazon has done, but I can't fault them for it.
You have given me new insight into many things about pattent law, IP, and whether Amazon.com is truly evil...
--
You say you want a revolution?
It's interesting to me that Apple would make a big fuss over this when it pertains to the open source community, but leaves M$ untouched. I mean after all, Bill stole the GUI from Apple. Think about it, the original Mac menu was on top and had an apple icon in the top left corner that allowed the user to access many programs. All that our "friend" Bill did was move the menu (aka taskbar) to the bottom of the screen and change the apple-icon menu button to a "start" button. In response to Apple, even as evil as M$ is, they didn't make anyone remove FVWM-95 or QVWM from themes.org.
Just putting in my 2 cents....
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Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
Is that French? Or did you mean boycot?
I thought the whole point of the Open Source movement was that people working outside the boundaries of normal corporate business could create innovative, powerful products.
If interface developers dislike Apple for making Aqua proprietary, shouldn't they build their own interfaces rather than copying Apple's? Seems like imitation is the most sincere form of flattery in this case.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
No, why should it?
It's shit like this that really pisses me off. It's almost a new fad, now, for a company to trademark the simplest terms. It's turned into a bit of a contest, a race to see who can come up with the simplest term to legally trademark.
Aqua should not be a trademarked name; it's too common, after all, it is the name of a color, and a prefix in English at that.
Apple is fooling themselves if they think America will recognize Aqua as Apple's interface simply by the name Aqua.
> was linear from left to right, but not sequential from top to bottom
Yeah. With 7 bits columns, IIRC.
Mmmm. "CALL -151". Mmmm.
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Please, separate piracy from the true spirit of free software. You guys are tainting a nobel movement with cheap and dirty trinkets ...
I can understand that its annoying to have ideas that you've payed for (i.e. paying for interface designers, ergonomic engineers and so on) and having people steal them. It seems that there will be more harm than good to come out of this though. Apple doesn't need any more animosity than it already has.
On the other hand notice that themes.org hasn't bothered to respond to requests for information on why the themes needed to be removed. Were there some simple demands (Don't use the Apple logo, its a trademark, don't use the term Mac in your themes, its a trademark as well) that they refused to comply with?
Unfortunately Apple generates its own FUD. Since themes.org won't elaborate I would reason that either a) there was a stipulation that they couldn't post the text of the letter b) themes.org is trying to hide something. By not having an official press release from Apple they've allowed the apple bashers to generate all the propoganda.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
c'mon, look at the name of the themes! apple's not complaining about the "look and feel" of the themes, they're complaining about the trademarked names of the themes. i'm sure if the authors renamed the themes to not include the words "Mac" or "Aqua" and made sure they didn't have ripped bitmaps or icons from the real aqua then there would be no contention and apple would quietly allow it.
-- "Never call your girlfriend 'Butterball'. Not even once."
You are an idiot, not suprised YOU keep your name secret!
The Oxford English Dictionary has the following definition.
SKILFUL
Endowed with reason; rational; also, following reason, doing right.
Reasonable, just, proper.
Having practical ability; possessing skill; expert, dexterous, clever.
This is the true English spelling.
Note the single L's
How ironic. Today Xerox was trading at 6 dollars all time low, and Xerox was forced to sell part of it to a Japanese company. Does this sound like "The Theives won the war?"
For the eighteen-bazillionth time, Apple didn't just come in and start stealing ideas from clueless Xerox, as "Pirates of Silicon Valley" depicts. Jobs gave Xerox a whole bunch of Apple stock, and more importantly, Xerox understood Apple's intent. They may have not known how popular this stuff would be, but they knew the deal. I believe Woz talks about this on his site.
- Scott
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Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
...the logo is nowhere to be found in any of the Aqua-like GTK themes!
How do I know? I'm using one of them right now, and I have the other installed.
Now, it might have been in one of the E or Sawfish themes, but I can confidently say it wasn't in any of the GTK ones. In fact, I don't think anyone would have included the Apple logo after the first Aqua theme was removed for that very reason, and removed again at Apple's request even after the logo was removed.
As for the "They spent thousands of hours and millions of dollars..." argument...please. Aqua is NeXT with curvy, bubble-like widgets, at least on the surface. They certainly don't provide any functionality improvements that Aqua gives (does it give any?)
If the logo isn't in any of these themes, Apple barely has a leg to stand on, unless they want to copyright curvy, shiny widgets. I wonder if they've sent similar letters to the theme authors. Is creating a theme enough to whiff off Apple, or do you actually have to offer it for download before they'll launch attack lawyers?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
The Apple ][ was indeed a wonderful machine. I started on one before they had arrow key and switched from a ][ to a //. You know that your machine is a success when a six-year old knows what CALL -151 is for. One of my weirdest childhood memories was banging in page after page of hex code from copies of Compute Magazine I found at the library.
My Apple ][ is still in the basement, but it's power supply is dead... never to PR#6 again.
OS X is supposed to use some stuff from FreeBSD right?
How come Apple feel its okay to lend stuff from open source world and sell it to others, when its not okay that the open source world lend their themes and release them for free?
Don't like the signal they are sending here.
it should also be noted that aqua is the latin word for water, which has been in use for several millenia.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Apple seems to be anal on this one.
But if Apple let this go through, it would give Microsoft or RedHat or whomever a strong argument that the very much Mac-like themes were in the public domain, and could be integrated within their highly-profitable products - at Apple's expense.
So Apple did what it had to do... at our expense, but also, more importantly, at the expense of Microsoft and other corporations that could have simply lifted Apple's arguably impressive efforts in the name of profitablity.
I think it's a matter of consistency. If a theme maker copies the LOOK of Aqua, but doesn't do a perfect job of it, then it could lead some people to think, "Aqua sucks. It breaks when you do such-and-such."
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WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
This sig intentionally left justified.
The aim here is to use a computer. If you switch to another operating system, you can probably get a legacy UI resembling the old system but it won't give you all the advantages of the new one, and it might be more cumbersome than its native UI. Imagine getting fake exhaust from your electric car. If I had to stick to a windoze UI on Linux, it would be as useless as Windoze to me. This is why I think a Mac theme on *nix has nothing but parody value.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
This isn't the first time that Mac has decided to drop their lawyer brigade on someone that might be infringing on their copyrights with design. Another story I remember a while back, link to the slashdot story here, They were suing other companies for producing what macintosh said were "iMac clones". I can't remember, but I think in one of the articles, they're reason for suing the iMac clone companies, was because they "did not want to confuse they're customers."
And this isn't even the first time macintosh has gotten on themes.org. Look at this older slashdot story here.
See, that's my problem. I don't have (and can't afford) a G3 or G4. And only recently have 8600's and even 8500's come down to the price range that I am able to purchase them. 9500's and 9600's as well.
That's one thing that is a mixed blessing of the Mac... They really hold their value. If you're selling your investment, you'll get a much better return on your 2 y/o Mac than WinTel box. But if you are buying a computer and don't have much cash to spend, well, it's one reason the majority of my home network in Intel hardware.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
It's not like I actually paid for linux or my window manager nor the themes I apply, so it's not like apple is losing money or anything. Seeing as how apple ain't doing so great now I think they're clinging to whatever they can, in this case a UI, if all you have is a pretty UI what do you really have? Dangerous parallels drawn drit cheap.
> And setting the high bit shifted those pixels overy by half a pixel
Oh my god. I just understand _now_ why setting the high bit made different colors for different bits ! (ie: odd and even bits didn't have same color) More than 15 years later. It is never too late, I guess...
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Well, Apple has to make efforts to protect their trademarks and logos. If the problem is the Aqua theme (look) by itself, then it's just silly for Apple to pull the plug on that (L&F and all that history should have taught them something). But a logo they have to protect. Even if it has become something of a 'household image' (to coin an expression (or not)). Take Kleenex(tm) for example... their lawyers and PR people always insist on 'tissue' instead of 'kleenex'. Why? Isn't it good for them for everyone to be equating Kleenex with tissue? Of course it is, and whoever was in charge of the brand made a fortune, it's a true marvel of advertising and branding. But if they just give up and stop even attempting to protect their trademark, they stand to lose it. Same with Apple; no matter how silly it may be for them to make a big deal out of this they have to protect it and be seen protecting it, otherwise Apple will be losing its trademarks and exclusive right of use, pouring millions spent on advertising and promoting it.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
from what I've seen the look and feel of the themes isn't close enough to warrant any action.
It seems to be a case of (at least reading through the comments on the themes.org site) the themes in questing were infringing upon *trademarks* belonging to APPL, either using 'logos' or trademarked names (aqua, Mac, etc.)
This should be relatively easy to fix. Rename them to, say "Smack-Agua" and put little pictures of the fruit of your choice (Oranges for maximum effect) instead of apples.
To take an example from the physical world. When Japanese companies started making motorcycles that looked and sounded like Harley-Davidson bikes, H-D tried to file a patent on the sound and sue. The final outcome? You can't protect the look or sound of a motorcycle.
Why should look and feel of software be any different?
I may dislike oracle and microsoft, but I hate apple.
I used to love them.
The Apple ][ was an amazing machine - it inspired a generation of hackers. (I still have one.) You can take a reasonably gifted kid, hand them an apple ][ and 30 minutes later, they'll be coding. It is so friendly. If you want to get more in depth, you can build your own hardware - it's that open.
Then Steve Jobs became the driving force behind apple's design decisions. Therein lies the problem. Woz was a toolmaker, his designs were like duct tape and bailing wire - you could use them for anything. Jobs is an artist, he wants to make something you look at, not something you interact with. Using a macintosh is like visiting an art museum, you can look, but there's a plexiglass wall keeping you from really looking closely. Using my apple ][ was (and is) like fingerpainting - you were only limited by your own creativity.
That's why I hate apple - they used to make the best computers, and now they tell us to be like everybody else and "think different."
Well I think differently - and I hate what apple has become.
--Shoeboy
Really, when I step back and look at it objectively, I don't know who is right; It's a tough issue.
You're right, it is a tough issue. I'm not sure I entirely believe that I should be able to own said design.
But I think there's a strong argument to be made that having intellectual property - when intellectual property is used/supported/organized correctly - actually does foster innovation. Although I don't have a link or reference handy, I do recall reading something a few months ago that basically said it is a historical fact that countries with IP protection have a faster technology growth rate than those that don't. So, in some sense, having IP fosters innovation.
The problem we have today is that IP is becoming less about protecting a specific invention or idea as it is about trying to find as vague an "invention" as possible that will pass muster so as to foreclose entire technologies from being developed by somebody else. Basically, the process has become weak, and instead of protecting the rights of the inventor, it now hampers the rights of the person wishing to independently reproduce or expand upon a particular invention.
I think if the process was strengthened again, and shored up against the abuses that are so obviously running rampant today, the people bitching most would be those who were trying to abuse the system today. My personal opinion is that many of the people who are anti-IP are really just fed up with the abuses the current system is perpetrating, and if the IP system was suitably fixed, they would be satisfied.
(But, yes, in the end, it does come down to the philosophical discussion of whether anything as nebulous as ideas can be crammed into a framework designed to protect physical objects that we can touch, hold, and handle.)
--
I was going to buy a imac for my neice this weekend...now I think I'll just giver her a clone.
Thanks for helping me with the decision, Mr. Jobs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
As Apple hardware continues to become more and more overpriced in comparison to PCs, digital music, image, and video editing keeps shifting to Windows, and OS X moves to UNIX, what reason do people have to buy a Mac?
The Mac user interface. And if someone can make Linux as easy and as pretty, Apple will be in very deep shit.
Look, at least they asked nicely without dragging the lawyers into the fray from the start.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Quick lesson in logic:
Compare 2 pairs of trainers of similar quality in same shop - one pair is 4 or 5 times the price of the other.
Gee, I guess they are ripping us off. Unless you are telling me, they pay 80 percent of gross on advertising.
Same goes for other goods.
It isn't just the UI that was copied, the Aqua them uses several apple logos in a variety of places. That is a clear trademark violation.
.^
^.
( @ )
Soylent Foods, Inc.
Now that OSX is turning out to be a Benjamin fix (buy all new apps since Carbon is so slow), Apple may be getting desperate.
Did The Daily Show steal from us? We'd like to know.
I mean, now that I can't make Enlightenment look like Aqua I'm just going to have to go out and buy a Mac.
--
I would be a paid subscriber if Taco and Hemos weren't such cunts
> With 7 bits columns, IIRC.
:-)
Yeap. And setting the high bit shifted those pixels overy by half a pixel. Could get 560 x 192 monochrome, baby !!
Strange, that the Apple ][ graphic techniques show up 20 years later in Sub-Pixel Font Rendering !
"A person hasn't learned to appreciate color monitors until they have played Gumball on a monochrome monitor and beaten the 1st level"
Cheers
THEMES.ORG: These aren't the themes you are looking for.
APPLE: These are not the droids we're looking for.
THEMES.ORG: He can go about his business.
APPLE: You can go about your business.
THEMES.ORG: Move along.
APPLE: Move along. Move along.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Apple has usage guidelines for there trademark on their website. A relavent section might be:
1. Company, Product, or Service Name: No third party can use or register, in whole or in part, Apple, Macintosh, iMac, or any other Apple trademark, including Apple-owned graphic symbols, logos, icons, or an alteration thereof, as or as part of a company name, trade name, product name, or service name.
It should be noted that inoder to be able to inforce these rules against someone creating a competing product with Apple, they have to be inforced against places like themes.orgI think apple should spend more time trying to fix their stock price by focusing on their business and not worry about the inevitable things that happen on the internet. They spend WAY to much time looking for people to sue. This action I think is more hurtful to apple anyway. The themes are made by people that support Mac. All they're doing by asking them to remove them is taking away visible support for their own platform. If the theme was MAC-sux, they might have a good reason to ask them to remove it, but any positive or neutral exposure is helpful and shouldn't be served a lawyer's letter! Call off the legal attack on your people Apple, it would save you money!
WURD!!
They also tried to patent the sound when the trademark wasn't going to pan out. Honda and Yamaha went to court over it and things were just resolved this year.
I use Secret Recipe #1 for my lemonade. Jim Bob analyzes the chemical structure, duplicates it, calls it Secret Recipe #2, and starts marketing it under that name. Should I have the right to sue him for stealing my intellectual property?
Jim Bob decides to advertise his lemonade stand just 10 feet away from my own stand, by hanging a custom Print Shop sign on a public telephone pole. Should I have the right to sue him for advertising within my territory?
Jim Bob comes over to my stand one day and starts talking with my customers, trying to get them to come over to his stand and try his own Secret Recipe. Should I have the right to sue him for manipulating my customers?
Obviously these are blatantly stupid examples, but that's the point I'm trying to make. Intellectual property is blatantly stupid, and immoral as well.
And you thought the US is built on a free market.
Who gave them the right to take away our right to copy it freely anyway?
First of all, what rights are you refering to? The right to use copyrighted material for your own cause, without permission from the owner of the copyright? Oh yeah, I forgot about that right. Regardless of the money factor, Apple does have a right to things that originated from them. I don't care if it aligns them with open source or not - the fact remains, you don't (nor does anyone else) have a RIGHT to their material. If they decide to let you use it/have it, that is ther prerogative, but for the time being, they are not letting that happen.
You also have to understand this fact: Apple is a BUSINESS. Last time I checked, businesses were in the business (ha ha, pun!) of making money. Sure, a side effect of that may be that the consumer is elated, but it is by no means a requirement of the company to please every person on the earth - or give away their material. Sure, it would be nice, but they don't have to, and you (or anyone else) certianly do not have a RIGHT to anything of that nature.
Silent encroachments of those in power and sudden usurpations? What a joke. They just don't want people to steal their thunder, and rightly so. Most people don't.
Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.
I think apple should comply with my request to remove all hockey puck mice from existance. It is unethical to allow people to buy these mice.
(Quick, post them on freenet, and while you're at it, put up these themes!)
Got friends?
Who do you think wrote the letter? My guess (since I don't really know) is that it wasn't there development dept., it sure wasn't accounting, and something tells me if their sales people are anything like ours they wouldn't be able to write a letter...who does that leave? Upper management and legal, we know upper management doesn't do anything but tell everyone else what to do so it had to be legal....just because it didn't take going to a court room doesn't mean "THEY" weren't involved.....
Funny and I thought Perl == Paid employment recently located
Lotus also lost a lawsuit against Borland involving Borland's Quattro spreadsheet (vs. Lotus 123) over the fact that Quattro had a macro system that enabled you to load in and make Quattro exactly emulate 123's keystroke sequences
Does this remind you in any way of the Tetris Company cases? Copyright on a general look and feel copyright is dead. But doesn't the Aqua theme remind you a bit of Dr. Mario?
Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Now, if themes.org or someone else where charging for the Apple-like theme, there would be a very legitimate complaint -- but nobody is profiting directly off of the theme.
---
seumas.com
And also, just because something is a "business" doesn't me that we have to keep it in business by giving it special rights and privledges! For example, when Intel had competition with AMD, we didn't make a new law saying that you had to buy a Pentium in addition to AMD's processor so that poor Intel could stay in business.
And as for copyrighted material, you didn't invent the English language, you didn't invent electromagnetic waves (sound, light), you didn't invent music. You didn't invent paper, pens, sentences or phrases. You took matter that existed before humans existed and arranged it. I could write a computer program that takes every word, every letter, and infinitely creates combinations of them. In theory I would "write" every orignal work, so if you came up with something, I could simply say, "Too bad, my computer wrote it first, therefore it's not oringial." I could do the same with sound: Generate random sound until I've created every musical composition every to be invented.
Got friends?
Apple (Jobs and engineer cronies) stealing the entire "look and feel" from the now floundering Xerox (PARC) was OK??
please...the entire concept of "look and feel" is so overblown. a good part of all GUIs borrow from each other in that dept. hell, we'd be using command lines for life if they didn't.
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
Last year, Apple Computer sued eMachines, Inc. over the similarity of an eMachines wintel computer to the iMac.
The basis for the suit came from law governing the apparel industry, called "trade dress." The law is intended to protect Designer clothing from cheap look-alike knockoffs.
Apple won the suit, and eMachines had to withdraw that product.
The applicability of this to the themes is left as an exercise to the reader.
Apple exchanged stock for the concepts they saw at Xerox--- they stole *nothing*
Really? Then explain why Xerox filed a lawsuit over the matter.
The *TRUTH* is what you state is part of a settlement. Why would Apple give up stock, unless forced to?
The Micorsoft $150 million was a settlement...out of court.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Something like, "Don't have a Macintosh at work but wish you did? Download desktop themes for your OS and make it look like your Macintosh!"
Seriously, though,these things are free advertizement. What more could you want than people willing to do advertizing for you?
Did they just miss this one? It has been there a long time ("Updated 4th February 2000"). So, I wonder how Apple's lawyers decide which ones to go after and which ones to ignore.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Apple is going down the same path they went down in 1995. They are paying more attention to the color and curve of their models when they hold a miniscule piece of the market instead of concentrating on ads that aren't overly cocky. Now, I can't remember a time where I didn't want smack Jeff Goldblum until the Apple-sauce ran out of him.
They do not learn from these mistakes and will again pay for it in earning reports and declining stock once people wise up and see that the shine on that machine is not helping them get any useful software to run on the thing.
A Mac to PC convert.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
As a longtime apple user I am familiar with the strengths and many weakness of the Mac OS, aqua is a big step back in usability of the OS. A lot of human enginering that went into the original MacOS and has been refined for years has been tossed out in favor of a candy looking much less usable GUI.
I'm excited that MacOS will finally have good low level OS functions, and the ability to have shells in addition to the "clicky-clicky" interface will be fantastic. But I want my old GUI back!!!
Sheldon
Here is a paper describing Smalltalk 76, and here is what Jobs and Hertzfeld likely saw .
I have written a truly remarkable program which this sig is too small to contain.
-1, Flamebait? What, you can't accept the truth? Stop trying to moderate to fit your own agenda, you conformist idiot.
Uh, this isn't borrowing! The theme authors are trying to make these themes look EXACTLY like Aqua, which is part of a commercial, for-profit, non-OSS operating system. One which Apple is pinning its entire future on! Why would they allow any part of this make-or-break software to be diluted in the public eye? IP or not, we don't need lawyers to agree that it looks EXACTLY the same! Are we trying to encourage a litigous society?
On /. "A couple people wrote in noting that Themes.org has had to comply with a request from Apple "
On themes.org "We have reviewed the letter and decided to accommodate Apple's request"
Subtle difference.....
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
1) Someone thinks their interface is cool and decides to try it on other OS's. 2) People try it and like it a lot, just watch the number of d/l's. 3) Apple doesn't like it because... Hey, I don't know, Why? Maybe they don't have brains, just lawyers :)
First, Unisys. Then, Fraunhofer, they make me sick. Now, Apple. Perhaps tomorrow McDonald's claims royalties on Hamburgers.
Apple is simply trying to make itself the only source of anything resembling Aqua. Do they really think they will lose customers to people who know how to run a system that would allow them to use themes form this site? Apple is not in danger of losing out to users of unix-like systems (the only people able to use themes from themes.org) because MAC OS is based on being easy, and unix-like systems are not--they are designed to be logical. The philosophies are totally contradictory, unlike windows, which is designed to be as difficult and illogical as possible, which makes Windows users succeptible to being taken away by both camps :-). I know that OSX integrates BSD and allows for a CLI, unix tools, etc., but most people will not know about that and not too many will switch to Apple for that reason...the hardware is too expensive to justify it; I think most people interested in running a unix-like system would not be able to justify the cost of apple hardware over a cheap x8g-like computer running *BSD or GNU/Linux, or whatever they want. Apple is just trying to keep its hold over all its "intellectual property," and in the process creating bad blood among developers of open source software.
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# cd /
I think not. They're using *nix technology because it's arse-over-toolbox ahead of their own and they don't hafta pay for it. This themes-removal issue should in no way be viewed in the context of Apple supporting (or not) the open-source commnunity. They don't, it threatens their bottom line.
.
I've been neutral on Apple all my life. Their machines seemed stable, if limited. But they generally can't find their own arse with both hands when it comes to doing the right thing in the computing commumity. Apple is no longer the underdog, they're the overrun. They've got a crappy, expensive OS beating theirs because of good marketing and Machiavellian business practices and they've got a variety of free ones kicking their arse because they're just plain better.
I'm not suprised Apple did this, in fact I'm amused. But every day Apple seems to slip just a little farther down the respect ladder. I miss my Apple2e, but I'd never buy another Mac . .
BAH - the Aqua themes were too foofy anyway !
Cheers - JB
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
The news item says nowhere they 'had to comply', it says they read Apple's request, and decided to comply.
No court decisions, nothing like that. They simply chose to honor Apple's request, which may seem somewhat valid, though we all would probably say 'it's a theme! it's like, parody, or homage, to apple, not 'stealing''. Still....
BTW, I'm surprised that the KDE folks have gotten away with blatent rip-offs for so long, it's tacky and it's part of the reason I've always chosen GNOME.
This sentence contains the word coke, what do you say to that?
However, on a more serious note, the logo is completely unnecessary in order to get the MacOS overall appearance. So Apple almost certainly had the right to pull it. If it was identical they certainly do, but if it was a parody they almost certainly don't. However, on a pragmatic level, if I were them and any megacorp were to threaten me with litigation I'd quite happily give up a few small logos for the sake of keeping the rest of the theme available. The Fvwm95 start button has a little logo on it, just like W95, however, in Fvwm95 it's a penguin rather than a wavy dotty wiggly windowy thing. It's close enough. If people want facsimile, then they can rip off the logos themselves, and shouldn't expect others to do it for them.
FP.
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
For some reason, I have this image in my head of Daffy Duck in the one old cartoon about the buried treasure, after he has been shrunk, maniacally grasping a large pearl and screaming "It's mine, mine I say, mine, all mine!!!"
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
Apple has every reason to be worried. I've been using Aqua themes for 6 months on my Linux box and there is _no way_ that I would consider buying an Apple product. The reason: I can get their nifty GUI look 'n feel without having to abandon my OS of choice. Linux has more apps, is more reliable, has a wide userbase and is not reliant on any corporate strategy. I can't say that about OSX and although I hear good things about it, I'd rather run Aqua on Sawfish and Gtk using my sub-$1000 home made PC than fork out tons of cash for an Apple made system and an OSX license. What do I get for my money? The right to spend more money on other software I need. It's bloody crazy.
If you're not using Windows these days you're not running the defacto industry standard. That means Apple is really competing in the same space as the OSS community, and you just can't win when you're charging for something that others are giving away.
All this being said, APPLE IS MENTAL to be issuing these C&D orders. Themes are free advertising and Apple is purely a marketing company thesedays. They can use all the help they can get.
I keep seeing this assertion repeated by Mac critics. Have you ever owned, or even used an iMac?
I actually liked the "hockey puck" mouse. Its main defect was that it didn't have an optical sensor like many newer mice.
The keyboard was OK, my only complaint was that some useful keys had been deleted.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
and don't think they'll stop at the edge of your skull.
If we allow this moackery of law and liberty to go on your thought will not be your won.
How DO you want to live???
The right to swing your fist ends at my nose.
The right to make money ends at the tramelling of my freedoms.
In your twisted logic murder would be justified if it was commerically feasible?
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
Haveing been a Mac user for years (10 as of the end of the month), Apple DID in fact threatened M$ this way.
The lawsuit over Windows and The "Look and Feel" of the Mac OS was just finally settled in 1998 or 99. Microsoft licensed some Apple software to actually CREATE Windows, and Apple wasn't happy with how similar the 2 OS's ended up. M$ finally just paid money to Apple, settling out of court, because the DOJ trial was going to use the perdicament in the case.
-Marchie
~Donald / Just RTFM
If I'm not mistaken, these copy the NEXTstep look and feel, and these are a lot more than just themes.
sup
OS X is a good example of this problem: A lot of flashy stuff designed to demo well, very little attention paid to actual usability. To quote Bruce Tognazzini: "The purpose of the icons, the purpose of the entire OS X look and feel, is to keep the customer happy during that critical period between the time of sale and the time the check clears."
It puts Apple in a situation of being overly dependent on look-and-feel, so they feel they have to go after themes.org. They're probably nervous that if people see you can get those pretty pictures on another OS, they'll start wondering what exactly it is that makes a Mac a Mac. Of course, true innovation in OS design is more than a matter of hiring a few great graphic designers. But then, Apple hasn't been an innovative company for quite some time.
Do domain names matter?
Perhaps someone at Apple woke up and decided that it's time to put a stop to the propagation of that candy-coated eyesore known as Aqua. ;)
Sean
Isn't this the exact same sort of thing that Apple tried to use to crush microsoft back in the days when they were actually a competitor? I believe they tried to claim that a GUI was their IP. At the time, it more or less was as far as commercial systems went, and windows 1.0 (anyone else besides me have to support that monstrosity?) was more or less an attempt to bring a mac style interface to windows hardware, that much was clear.
Apple lost the suit, but there is one remaining artifact from the whole legal battle... look on your windows desktop and notice that you have no "trash can". It's a recycle bin instead. I recall the presence or absence of a trash can being a big deal during the trial.
Bill
Mathematically impossible requirements are technically not against policy.
I would like one. What does it taste like?, I like Fiji apples myself, I hope it is like that.
and then give it away for free.
...because if it were Apple, we'd be off much worse.
bye
schani
so all the mac OSX users will just have to use the OSX ports of Photoshop, Director, Flash et cetera instead, damn it
C'mon guys. MacWord Expo's just around the corner and Apple want to announce lots of interesting things, most probably including the fact that they're about to become the largest supplier of Unix stations just like they became the largest supplier of RISC stations when the PowerPC came out.
Cut the guys a little slack. You'd be pissed as [expletive deleted] if somebody rained on your parade before it even starts. Give Apple the courtesy of letting them hold their dog&pony show bask in the expected earnings and then rip off their GUI.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
... this makes no rational sence.
Now, I am a Mac user and have been for more than 10 years. I began learning Linux and WinNT/9x about 4 years ago, and even though I've prefered Linux, I always liked the way the Mac looked more than anything windows or X had to offer. Sure, I liked to hack the way that my mac interface looked and felt (woohoo, RedEdit!), but for the most part I've ended up going back to the classic Apple Platinum since the very first Kaleidoscope theme and beta releases of MacOS 8. And now my Macs running Linux PPC all have the Aqua theme with Helix Gnome running on them.
Now... Apple... Steve, baby, talk to me. Why is this wrong? Why can't I and all the other people out there who like both their Macs and their Linux actually have them both? For that matter, why support MKLinux and then not let those of us who use it or another distro make it look and feel as Mac like as we want? We are running it on your machines.
*shrug*
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
As many persons have already pointed out, there's quite rich pile of case law (M$ vs. Apple, Lotus vs. Borland etc.), which makes it clear that copyright doesn't protect UI. Of course, any single element of UI can be protected, but as far as there isn't any direct copying you are in the clear water. To rephrese this, you can't protect idea (in this case look&feel) with copyright.
What comes to user perspective, at least most of legal literature from law&economics tend to think, that the benefits from not to give protection to UI clearly overrides the negative impact in UI-investments. So, you can make money with good UI but you are not going to get a monopoly from the government to support it...
Ville
My DeCSS archive:
I wonder if Apple will go after JellyBelly next? That candy is pretty close to Apple's innovative buttons.
How on earth could I do that? I don't buy their products in the first place!
if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }
here.
read it up and let me know if i need to check [my] facts about this....
i particularly like this quote from the article attributing creations to Bob Taylor: Now retired, Taylor says there isn't anything on today's PC that isn't a legacy of the Alto project, from the display to the software to the GUI.
oh, but i think he's suing for "look and feel."
once again, whatever.
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
It's not like themes (on any plaform) significantly change the way a GUI works; they just change the way it looks. Now if Apple was in the unique position of offering, say, their top of screen menu system, and a theme implemented that then they might be able argue the case.
Oh. Hang on a minute.
They did argue their case.
In court.
They lost, didn't they?
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
Of the fact that macs are completely shalow. If you copy the looks of a mac onto another computer you end up pretty close to the real thing.
OTOH, I can't see why anyone would like an Apple theme on their GNULIX/BSD/WhateveX. It reminds me of people who call themselves vegetarians and then crave for veggie sausages, veggie burgers and the like. Such hypocricy.
Sorry, but this is the stupidest argument that I've ever heard. Isn't it possible to be a vegetarian in practice (because of your beliefs) but miss the taste of meat? That's like calling a recovering alcoholic who has a craving for alcohol a hypocrite.
Personally, as a Mac user, I am ashamed to see Apple behaving in this manner. I would be flattered if people were this impressed by Aqua. I think their behaviour is petty and they have lost some respect in my eyes.
v
OTOH, I can't see why anyone would like an Apple theme on their GNULIX/BSD/WhateveX. It reminds me of people who call themselves vegetarians and then crave for veggie sausages, veggie burgers and the like. Such hypocricy.
My reason for using GNU/Linux is the scope for customizability, that I can do things in the best possible way for me, not just the only way dictated by Gates/Jobs/Stalin/[insert your favourite dictator here]. Perhaps the only vague point about using a Mac (or Windoze for that matter) theme is to provide Joe A. User an accessible migration path to real operating systems.
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Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
fine, they "borrowed" it. they certainly didn't create the idea of the GUI and probably wouldn't have if they had never seen Alto.
BTW - i assume that post is factual enough for you...it had the info i remembered except for the stock payment part....
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
At least they asked VA Linux to remove the material and didn't immediately go to court. Given the level of competency of most Macintosh users (this is not a slam), I can see why Apple would be concerned about, not a simlilar product necessarily, but a visual clone of their product before their product has been released. It is somewhat reasonable to assume that some potential users will confuse Apple's Public Source license with "open source", which is the first level of confusion. Also, the GUI (Aqua) for OSX is similar in nature to X and a window manager, which is what "Themes" is all about. The themes in question are not similar products, from the screenshots, they are identical products. This is the second level of confusion. AFAIK, the primary unfree, or non-public part of OSX is Aqua. The reference to Apple's suit against Microsoft for a similar look and feel does not apply here. If a user (don't ask me about the conditions under which this might occur) downloaded and used this visual clone, it would not operate in a manner concurrent with claims from Apple. This could potentially have negative effects on the perception of Apple's future product.
It is difficult for many open source advocates to understand a decision like this from a company who seems to be moving in the right direction, but you have to remember that Apple, as a company, has to follow a different set of rules. Investors in Apple did not jump in because Apple is a "bleeding edge, open source, Linux, dot-com" machine, they did so for the same reasons someone would invest in Oracle, Sun, IBM, etc. Apple did not do Public Source to contribute to the "movement", they did it to contribute to their bottom line. Although Apple may be a better company than they were, the are still Apple and they are still looking out for themselves.
You can tell a college man, but you can't tell him much.
This is the kind of attitude that tossers like me like to claim is "Apple all over".
Can you imagine if Tony McPhee had tried to force all Seattle grunge bands to cease and desist due to all their grunge sounding like the Groundhogs?
Sounds are _art_. Pictures are _art_. It's not pretending to be from Apple, it's simply _in the style of_ Apple's interface.
Question - would anyone actually _want_ to pretend to have something from Apple?
FatPhil
(yup, the correct answer is now _no_)
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
Isn't this similar to when Paramount started telling Star Trek fan sites that they couldn't use pictures of the USS Enterprise? Eventually, they realized that they were eliminating their fan base, and backed off.
It seems to me that Apple is making the same mistake here. People who get these themes are paying tribute to Apple. I would figure that they would make more people want to buy Apple's stuff.
No one is making money from these themes. Perhaps they should start prohibiting people from discussing "how good a Macintosh is" in newsgroups too. After all, Macintosh is a registered trademark and if you make a post without saying that it's a trademark, you are essentially publishing something without mentioning the registered trademark issue.
(Apple and Macintosh are registered trademarks of Apple computer corporation)
there are already mac themes for Win 2.03, 3.1, 95 and 98, check out the kaleidoscope site
The Woz was featured on A&E's Biography last night. Excellent piece; talked about the plane crash, the Apple I/II, Captain Crunch and blue boxing, and loads more. I didn't see this mentioned on /. so I thought I'd mention it now since it's somewhat pertinent, given the topic.
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You're right and their wrong. How dare they do anything thing like announce their hardware and software at MacWorld Expo without consulting you?
They're going to announce new cool hardware and a real OS that they want people to use. How could they resent having you rain on their parade... You who make such a big impact on their bottom line.
It must suck being you. Everything looks so brown. Or is that 'cause you have your head up your ass?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I don't really understand it. The people that are going to buy macs aren't going to be the people using the themes at themes.org. I can't see how it hurts Apple in any way. In fact, you would think that they would like this. It means that the more savvy users in the linux/open source community appreciate the aesthetics of their GUI. You would think that the spread of aspects of their OS would be beneficial to them.
If themes.org refused to remove themes with the Apple look-and-feel (and remember, look-and-feel ain't copyrightable; you can patent certain ideas, but nifty pixmaps doesn't a new invention make), they'd send a cadre of lawyers upon them. And not necessarily to fight it out with t.o -- the case law (as cited in other comments) is pretty clear, particularly the Apple v Microsoft case -- but to bully them into submission with the threat of long, expensive legal battles. Here is where the US citizens are losing many, many, many of their rights, and this is what the government absolutely needs to address. Being a capitalist, I do not believe the government should enforce egalitarianism within society or the marketplace; being rational and fair-minded, I cannot excuse this country from not strictly enforcing egalitarian views upon the judicial process. The court should err on the side of the preservation of the rights of people.
This does not mean the deconstruction of Big Business (though, I admit, I would like that as well): it means levelling the playing field between all people before the court. Justice is blind, you say. Indeed, justice is blind -- so blind, in fact, that it cannot see that it is judging David v Goliath. David might win eventually, he probably would in this case, but does he have the means and resources to last it out? In most cases, no.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
Apple lost a law suit that contended that all GUI's with certain functional characteristics were proprietary. Most of the other GUI lawsuits were based on similar claims.
However, the similarity of Aqua themes to Aqua is MUCH greater than the similarity of Mac OS to Windows.
Do your homework. You are looking for case law dealing with trade dress infringement.
You are wrong - I have had several of my ideas copied.
Some are worth big money, but I do not complain about it.
IP is just an excuse for big business to overcharge people. It is easy to work that one out - just look at prices in shops.
There's the Cygwin project which has a complete set of GNU tools for Windows, but IMHO their version of Bash sucks in a major way - it sets up an odd directory structure which makes navigating around a disk a pain for one.
The best one I've used is the MKS Toolkit which also provides a complete set of UNIX tools for Windows. Unfortunately, it's just not free...
Please email me with your proper email address and site - I tried what I thought was your email address with no luck!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon