Slashdot Mirror
More On Tragedy
ELBnet writes It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once - and that is a great idea. I set up the search engine at WWW.ELBnet.com/wtc but need URLs to populate it. Please e-mail me any suggested URLS and I'll add them.
Also please don't /. the site... let the people who need it get to it. Spread the word."
Radio Free Wazee writes "Radio Free Wazee has suspended its normal programming in order to provide a relay for National Public Radio. Most of the sites are slammed -- we've got room for about 320 listeners. You'll need an MP3 player (WinAMP, etc.) -- the stream is at http://live.str3am.com:2310/listen.pls Our web site is http://www.ideashot.com/wazee.org Howard @ radio free waee"
GatorMan writes "The Red Cross and Amazon.com have setup a donations page for disaster relief to aide in the recovery of our people. I've seen it jump $100,000 in an hour (thanks to my $10 I'm sure) with over 25,000 donations so far, very promising. No where else on Earth could you find support like this."
winksmith writes "as many of us look on the recent crashes in horror, we will also be pushed towards more tech solutions to some of the scenarios witnessed. i believe experts agree that the buildings may have stood up to forces of the crash had it not been for the very hot fuel burning w/i the building. the building themselves were designed to take aircraft impacts (albeit circa 1960 aircraft). this disaster may spark re-interest in fuel additives for jet fuel that would immediately put out fires upon impact.
the faa and nasa ran some very extensive tests including the purposeful crashing of a large boeing jet (B720) in december of 1984. the tests were not encouraging. details are available. figure 1-1 shows the jet crashing.
no one can second guess what would have happened, but perhaps continued research into this area might have played a role in saving a few more lives. and still may in the future."
Wiggins writes ""The Internet Fraud Complaint Center recently received several complaints that someone is using the letters, "FBI" or "fbi.gov" in an e-mail address in order to make it seem that the message is coming from an FBI employee. In several cases, the message said, "Your application is approved. Please fill out this form to confirm your identity" and solicited the person's name, address, credit card number and expiration date." More on the http://www.ifccfbi.gov/. I am sure /. users know better, but the general populace doesn't (always)."
Today, having calmed down a little, I have been thinking about feasible ways to prevent such acts of terrorism.
Experts seem to agree that security measures can never completely prevent a determined, well organized attempt involving suicide killers. Never being fully secure, maybe we could still make pulling off something like this hard enough so it won't happen again. Please share your ideas.
One thing I read on /. was "physically separate the pilots from the
passenger cabin". I think that would make it a lot harder. It could be
improved by adding security personnel in plain clothes (preferably
Constable Angua von Überwald ;o) israeli-style.
This act was obviously planned by a close and disciplined group. Such groups need money to operate. It has been suggested that Osama Bin Laden be involved in this. Regardless, he is definitely actively supporting terrorism, which is what we are trying to make more difficult.
IIRC, Bin Laden is a sort of rich businessman from Saudi-Arabia. Probably he still owns some company (or companies), drawing his income from it (or them). The huge, illegal, (nonexistant) cartels of (nonexistant) multinational corporations (not) governing virtually all international trade all (don't) have well established procedures (not) to crush possible competitors. Considering the degree of interdependency in our economy and the fact that the WTC housed some quite influential offices, Bin Ladens commercial efforts might suddenly prove unfit for competition on global markets, as did many others, surprising unsuspecting watchers.
Apparently, he gets lots of cash from fund-raising organizations operating in rich (read: G7) countries. Could these be found out, their efforts proved illegal, their money confiscated?
These methods could be used against multiple targets. They seem to involve less martyr potential than nukes. Any other suggestions?
Kiwaiti
Member of the Legion Of Microsoft Haters
It's worth mentioning that Amazon isn't charging their usual cut for the service, all money is going to Red Cross. And (this is a bit odd) it's refundable for 30 days.
I'm not kidding. Go to goatse.cx, and instead of the horrible sight you think you'll see, you'll find something different.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
This may not be exactly on topic with the story above but relevent.
I've been watching Amazon.com's RedCross donation page today. It was mentioned here earlier. It has just passed $1 million collected with over 36,000 people contributing. Truely amazing.
I hope everyone will consider donating at least a little bit to help the victims.
Jonathan
Ok, perhaps this is flamebait, but I'm asking, because I think it has some relevance.
I read on the 'net that when "The WB" covered Bush's speech yesterday, there was a mic on that shouldn't have been. They claimed that they heard someone feeding lines to Bush during the first part of the speech - i.e. reading lines to Bush, Bush then repeating what he heard.
Anyone else see this? Or is it political FUD? It would explain his strangely halting delivery.
Just wanted to clarify that.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
I would like to thank all of you who have contributed with your comments here on slashdot in regards to this case in the last two days. You have been an invaluble source for extensive information far beyond what any comercial news-source could ever be. You have given a human perspective to the unimaginable.
Again, thank you. And God bless us all.
Not only did the terrorists bombing piss us off really bad (a it should), so we're already more than likely to go bomb anything remotely related to the terrorists (well, ur state was adjacent to theirs, but now we also got NATO wanting to get into the action. So barring UN intervention of some kind (I doubt it, although I don't know if we'd listen to them anyway), we're going to find a terrorist to blame and bomb the hell out of him and all his associates.
Yeah, we may not find the real terrorist, but we'll make sure we can find someone else to blame. The government has that legitimacy thing and competence thing to maintain.
What, the government would never do that? Hey, maybe they're all honest johns in D.C., but if anyone has ever read Fahrenheit 451, you know that the public doesn't want the government to catch THE terrorist, they want them to catch someone that the government say is the terrorist.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Maybe I missed it, but has there been a confirmation about a 5th plane enroute to Colarado? This "mutual defense clause" does that mean that it's possible that Norad has been damaged and the U.S. is blind in the air?
I'm watchin CNN now and there's a reported talking about a single unidentified plane flying over NY and to me it looks like one of the new unmanned spy plane's.
So twenty odd thousand people are killed, and your first thought is, "hey, lets see what goat.secx has to say about this"
Or maybe you just have it set as your homepage...
with the enourmous amount of hackers and computer specialists in the slashdot community, it seems that this community could be used to identify the responsible parties, and aid the authorities. I am not asking for vigilante action, but maybe some targeted information gathering. I'm thinking is terms of bots to collect information and a central database to gather and mine data. after important data has been verified (prevent passing on false rumors) then passing the results to the authorities. We've got all this computing power. It's time to use it for something more important than Quake.
ARTICLE 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all, and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective selfdefence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually, and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
I'd just like to say that I've used slashdot a bit over the past two days and I've been impressed.
Of course there has been wild speculation that was inaccurate - but there was also this everywhere.
The accounts of survivors here and some of the links provided have been really good.
What does everyone else thing of slashdot's coverage ?
I find it interesting that this past Friday, (September 7th) the U.S. Department of State issued the following "Worldwide Caution" travel bulletin for the benefit of US travelers:
"Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist action from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert."
[From: http://travel.state.gov/wwc1.html]
The U.S. Department of State apparently knew that something was up, just not exactly what.
This ocurred to me last night.
Every commercial airline pilot i have ever met was an ex air-force pilot. (In the USe abotu the only way to learn to fly jhets is to join the US Airforce.)
Given that, I would think they have training on the proper handling of a side arm. Maybe its time to arm them all.
Thanks to modern technology, if we can recover DNA samples, we can clone them and put their clones on trial!
I'm glad to hear that airport security for passenger flights will be increased. I haven't seen mention, though, of non-passenger flights. There are other planes in the air, such as Fedex and UPS. Surely these planes make cross-continental flights and carry alot of fuel, making them dangerous weapons should terrorists be at the controls. Has anyone seen this point raised yet?
This article links the CIA with Bin Laden... Scary? I saw Orrin mouthing off yesterday as well.
This link was discovered via Slashdot, via Michael Moore's page.
Winton
The only effective weapon against terrorism is to do absolutely nothing.
...
Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.
Say what you will about the loss of life, and the human tragedy of it, but the fact remains: humans die, whether at the hands of other humans, or by their own doing.
Yes, it's horrific the way things went down in New York yesterday. Terrible, and we all suffered through it (thanks to live action television) with those souls in the street and in the buildings and planes.
Americans fear death. Everything they do - their entire culture - is designed to prolong the inevitable.
It is this nations biggest weakness.
Responding to this form of terrorism with anything less than an utterly peaceful view is to let the terrorists win.
Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not afraid of death - something that most Americans can not truly admit.
Face it. In this particular case, America is not the superpower, since those who do not fear death have the mightiest weapon of all.
However, we should of course expect a typically American reaction. Bombing of specific targets. Categorically standard propagation of information by American news/propaganda corporations. Political jousting and hustling. Conspiracy, subterfuge, irresolution.
Made for TV movies will be on the airwaves by June
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Personal Video Recorder.
Atleast that's what google keeps coming up with, and it makes sense in the context of the article.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Most of the TV stations were off the air when the second building collapsed. Only WCBS-TV has a backup transmitter (@ Empire State Building.) They've since piggybacked onto other broadcasters outside of Manhattan to get a signal out. NPR FM station is now using another stations call letters and frequency.
I've been hearing about the proposal to beef up security for domestic flights in the USA: bravo!
I have flown many international flights, but only 3 or 4 times within the USA, and quite frankly security always seemed a little lax, even compared to Canada. This is not to say that airport officals are directly to blame for this tragedy, but one can also look at it pragmatically: there are HUGE numbers of people flying within the USA at all times, and regular delays only seem to piss people off. What will happen now if the security becomes much stricter? I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it when the time comes, but it's not going to be a pretty sight trying to process that many people.
In more positive news, many hundreds of Torontonians have turned out to donate blood! (OK, me included) Please disregard the troll who has been posting that the Red Cross has lots of blood: it's been a known fact for the past year that supplies have been *very* low both here and in the US. Go for it if you can! Even if your blood is not used for this emergency. blood is ALWAYS in demand, and will NOT get thrown out like the troll has implied. It all gets stored and sorted, never has there been a surplus!
Thanks.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/1m/www.wash ingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19050-2001Sep12.ht ml
Or copy and paste: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
http://www.watership.org/media/
http://wtc.frack.org/
Please mirror these.
I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror.
http://watership.org/media/images.tar.gz -(26985k)
http://watership.org/media/movies.tar.gz -(200189k)
i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.
Producing satire is kind of hopeless because of the literacy rate of the American public. - Frank Zappa
According to a press conference on CNN (dont remember which one) no one has been *arrested* yet in conjunction w/the attacks.
Yes we all know that they took into custody some people that they believe are linked to Ladin and may have had something to do w/the attacks but they know apparently little at this point.
I heard rumors that they are checking into an e-mail account that was apparently used to communicate the messages about the attack.
On a side note -- I live in an apartment complex of several buildings. My building and the one closest to me have many flags hanging from the balconies. I urge everyone to not only donate their blood (there was a 2.5 hour wait this morning in Toledo, OH) but to display an American flag for the lives lost in this tragic event.
God Bless America.
You don't kill terrorists to punish them, you kill them to get rid of them! The more terrorists you kill, the less terrorism there will be. Duh!
Of course, the hard part is killing only the terrorists and sparing the innocent victims of Mid-East strife.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
In my haste I forgot to reference the origal thread Sorry about that.
Also this is of interest:
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier). When he arrived at radio station CFRB in Toronto that morning, he spent twenty minutes dashing off a two-page editorial defending the USA against its carping critics which he then delivered in a defiant, indignant tone during his "Let's Be Personal" spot at 11:45 AM that day.
The unusualness of any foreign correspondent -- even one from a country with such close ties to the USA as Canada -- delivering such a caustic commentary about those who would dare to criticize the USA is best demonstrated by the fact that even thirty years later, many Americans doubt that this piece (which has been circulating on the Internet in the slightly-altered form quoted above as something "recently" printed in a Toronto newspaper) is real. It is real, and it received a great deal of attention in its day. After Sinclair's editorial was rebroadcast by a few American radio stations, it spread like wildfire all over the country. It was played again and again (often superimposed over a piece of inspirational music such as "Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"), read into the Congress Record multiple times, and finally released on a record (titled "The Americans"), with all royalties donated to the American Red Cross. (A Detroit radio broadcaster named Byron MacGregor recorded and released an unauthorized version of the piece that hit the record stores before Sinclair's official version; an infringement suit was avoided when MacGregor agreed to donate his profits to the Red Cross as well).
Sinclair passed away in 1984, but he will long be remembered on both sides of the U.S.-Canadian border -- both for his contributions to journalism, and for his loudly proclaiming what no one else at the time would stand up and say.
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
Here are some links for the demonstration mentioned above. They are on the Dryden Flight Research center site which has an archive of aviation related images, videos, and more. An incredible site. The videos are particularly unsettling
videos
photos
Unity folks, unity is important
First of all, one of the bedrock principles of the US is the protection of freedom of speech... which kind of goes along with the freedom of religion. Oh yeah, and implicitely the freedom to think whatever the hell you want. There are plenty of white supremicists who belive crazy stuff with no backing, but I would rather them have their right to believe what they like than to supress that right. Maybe my ideas would get the short end of the stick one day.
Hey, maybe we should ban all atheism, since it is such a hopeless belief system, with no afterlife or reward system. Maybe that's the cause of a lot of depression.
Almost all religions are against killing and deaths of innocent individuals. BUT, the people who run the religions can be corrupted and use religion for their own purposes (i.e. the Crusades).
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
It's real simple. We've known of terrorist orginazations for decades but have done very little to combat it.
All civilized nations need to delcare war on terrorism.
Make it real simple:
If you're a terrorist organzation you are at war with us and will be treated as such(ie killed).
If you are a country that habors or funds terrorists you will be treated no differently than the terrorists.
There needs to be a message sent that terrorism in any form will no longer be tolerated and treaties should be put into place so that if it rears its ugly head again in the future it'll be eliminated with the same vengence we used on those that commited these acts.
I have some sympathy for this view, but if we kill terrorists, at least those we kill won't be able to do anything like this again.
And since they are not afraid of death, surely this wouldn't matter for them either?
The way to win is to make sure everyone knows that terrorists inevitably lose. Look at McVeigh; he wanted to sabotage the Clinton administration through his attacks, but people immediately rallied behind their President and he would up at least doubling in the polls. Surely not what McVeigh was seeking?
D
I think the only reason they went for this is due to the incredibly high profile nature of this situation.
The US will attack anyone it pleases, breaking international law if it has to, which it has done repeatedly. Most of our attacks dating back to the early 80's (Latin America) and probably earlier are usually denounced in the international press. There are only three things that really deter our government from attacks:
1) US public opinion
2) international public opinion
3) threat of counterattack (ie we don't attack Russia because they killed x number of people over issue x, because they can nuke us. Countries like the former Yugoslovia or Somalia do not present this problem).
And really #1 and #2 can be kept to a minimum when no one knows what is going on to begin with when the media doesn't report it.
Since #1 is the most important you see information controls and propeganda in the US far more than the rest of the "civilized world". As such you can go to Canada and at least get a more accurate picture of things going on in the world, instead of another evening of Larry King talking to Chandra Levy's parents and a 1 paragraph mention of the thousands of people killed by security forces in country x in the back of the New York Times.
If at a minimum the investigation shows the attackers to be Arab, whether they are connected to Bin Laden or even if they are American citizens, Afghanistan will be crushed. This is looking more likely by the hour.
If you stand back and do nothing you invite the terrorists to come back and take another stab at it. If you show that you aren't affected by the tragedy at all you will also encourage them to do something worse next time.
...that on some level, we brought this upon ourselves.
Our "defense" industry is largely what caused this debacle -- the number one export for the United States is weapons. Think about that for a second -- we make more money selling weapons to the rest of the world than any other thing that we make.
The middle eastern countries are mostly split into 2 factions. We, in the United States, choose one of the 2 teams and sell arms to them. Often, we will sell arms to both sides. Remember iran-contra? Anyone? Anyone? Oh, wait, that was patriotic heroism. Only a crackhead or a defense industry salesman would sell fucking ARMS to IRAN.
So, basically, our #1 export is pouring gasoline on fires that have burned for thousands of years. Eventually, one of those fires hits us back here at home, and everyone wants to cry out "more defense" as if this could protect us, or help us sleep at night.
This attack is a reminder that ballistic missles aren't going to save us anymore. Star wars isn't going to stop 8 men with knives from hijacking
domestic flights.
The only thing that is going to save us a sane, rational foreign policy that doesn't incense our enemies in the middle east.
This isn't even a partisan issue. Clinton is as much to blame as either Bush, Ronald Reagan is as much to blame as Lyndon Johnson.
We as a nation need to stop instigating fights if we want to stay out of them. It's that simple.
As important, the signal to noise ratio is the best I've ever seen - almost everyone has been respectful and honest. I will admit to being an occasional troll myself, and I'm very pleased that there has been almost zero harassment or false stories - just as it should be.
One of the stories is now number one on the Hall of Fame with 2422 stories. Again, just as it should be.
Many thanks to the Slashdot crew for keeping the site running, and posting such meaningful, powerful stories. And thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. It's made a difference for thousands of people.
sulli
RTFJ.
Secondly, we have to be realistic about striking back at terrorists and the nations who host them. This has little to do with right and wrong - the US has meddled in the Middle East for decades, and Islamic regimes are well known for their support of terror policies. There are no innocent parties, so forget about who has morality on their side. Start worrying about protecting your famillies, interests, values, and property. You were never in the "right" so forget about sheltering your petty morality. This is a war. You will have to kill innocent civillians. If you do not, you may die. Those who support Islamic fundamentalist regimes are your enemy, regardless of their direct involvement with terrorist acts.
Americans killed plenty of innocent Germans and Italians and Japanese in WW2 to protect its interests. It was acceptable then, it is acceptable now.
let's not forget that the US and others would LOVE to send aid, food, medicine, etc, to the PEOPLE of Iraq. However Saddam does not allow this. and let's not forget that it was an Iraqi army which marched over Kuwait, and was repelled. and let's not forget that it has been Iraq which has persisted in the attempt to build nuclear and biological weapons when it is obvious that Saddam cannot be allowed to possess these weapons.
bottom line: food, medicine, and other aid is readily offered to the people of Iraq. the government of Iraq (Saddam) will not allow this aid to be given, then turns and tells the people of Iraq that the US denies them food, medicine, and safety. that the US bombs them without cause.
maybe Saddam should stop trying to build biological weapons and allow his people to eat. but then he wouldn't have fear to rule them with.
i can't believe i am saying this, but perhaps Saddam should look to Khadafi (yes, Khadafi) as an example of a leader who sets aside his own goals and looks to provide his people with a future in the next century.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
I've been seeing media reports that both the White House and Air Force One was initally a target.
I understand how you'd hit the White House (same as any other building), but how exactly were they planning to take down Air Force One? Does anyone have details or even a guess?
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
This is one of the reasons I also regularly read the Jerusalem Post.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
If there is one reason why wolves prey on sheep, it is simply because sheep behave like sheep. If sheep banded together and fought off the wolves, limited as a sheep's natural defenses are, wolves would not kill sheep.
It's a simple parallel, but the metaphor is strong. Bank robberies commit robberies because they believe they will get money. Kidnappers steal children because they believe it will be profitable. Hijackers hijack planes because they believe they will be successful. If average citizens really hated terrorism, if they hated it so much that they were willing to sacrifice their own lives as a deterrant to future terrorist acts, terrorists would realize that their attacks would be fruitless.
The whole idea of a hostage is the assumption that a person threatens the life of another person who doesn't want to lose theirs. If people weren't averse to losing their lives in the name of stopping a global evil--terrorism--perhaps we wouldn't see those evils take place. It's ironic that one of our most cherished Western qualities, the sanctity of life, is also what makes us so vulnerable to those who don't hold that to be an important trait.
But ultimately, I don't think it can happen. What parent would be the first to give up a child? What passenger would be the first to take the bullet when they rush the hijackers? What bank customer would be willing to confront an armed gunman? But if us sheep could stop being sheep, I think something special would happen...
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
There's a lot of isp activity and cross-continent fiber in Long Island and afaik, most of the stuff is diesel powered. There's been some talk also even if the diesel tanks are refuelled there might be really big problem with dust and smoke jamming the generators.
yush
How about killing the brains and money that convinced these chuckleheads that suicide attacks are glorious? Knock the head off the beast.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Doing absolutely nothing would be an impressive reaction. But it will never happen. America must react. Why? My reasoning is slightly different than yours: Politicians must fight for re-election. Any politician who is against retaliation would be comitting professional suicide. Speaking of reservations is one thing, but doing anything other than fully going along with whatever the President's plan will be would cause a massive public uproar. This has caused to much pain for too many people -- ignoring it is not an option. Emotions conflict with logical reasoning. I've unfortunately encounterred this sentiment more frequently than I'd like to admit.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
censoring could have a place.
the reason they aren't showing any pics of the PA crash, is almost without doubt because the casualties are very very graphically and plainly visible. it would be in shocking taste to show these pictures - even the footage of people jumping is almost beyond belief.
once the situation cools, *then* there is a place for these images. to see them now would be too shocking, too disturbing, and just bloody irrelevant. these images are for calm review, not for hotblooded perusal.
I am not condemming US policy - the US was right to support the Israelis, and the oil sheiks have been filling our cars with cheap gas for decades.
Sure, and the first time someone switches on a call phone during a landing approach the plane takes control away from the pilot?
Taking control away from the pilots isn't the solution here. Making sure the pilots are able to retain control of the aircraft is the only way to avert tragedies like this.
There are at least two ways to accomplish this:
1. Physically seperate the flight crew from the cabin.
2. Protect the flight crew.
Personally, I'd much rather fly on a plane featuring an armed-to-the-teeth Marine than on one where a computer might decide to take over on behalf of the pilot. Being a geek, I have very little faith in all-powerful technology.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
for the same reason you dont want camers watching you every other damn place.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Looks like it would have been pretty basic training - there were no jets of any size in that menu.
I'm convinced the people involved had some kind of large jet training.
It sounds like they found fanatics and trained them to fly instead of finding fanatics who were already trained. That would certainly increase the cost of the operation, but it probably helps make it more secure.
D
Interesting...
Now, does this mean that the U.S. must consult with the Security Council before taking any action? ("Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council")
I'm not sure if that's the case, but it might help temper a hot-handed solution the U.S. might think up on it's own (although I hope it wouldn't go that far), and if so, it's a pretty damn smart move on NATO's part.
Just thinkin...
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Fly your flag "in the name of our God." It is God who strengthens us out of Zion; it is God who defends us; it is God who sends us help from the sanctuary.
--Jon
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
What's up with the promotion of audio and video sites?! The phone network is dammaged and jammed so the internet is the only useful means of communication many people have. Let them use it for their mail or personal communications! We should disscourage people from visiting sites that simply package things that can be had by traditional broadcast methods (remember radio and TV?), especially video formats.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
How absurd. Are you suggesting taking the extra police off of the streets and not introducing any more effective security mesaures at airports? Precautions can protect you. You learn what precautions are useful from experience. You are suggesting that we not learn anything from this experience at all.
This is an excerpt from an analysis I just received from Stratfor
The big winner today, intended or not, is the state of Israel.
Israel has been under siege by suicide bombers for more than a
year. It has responded by waging a systematic war against
Palestinian command structures. The international community,
particularly the United States, has pressured Israel heavily to
stop its operations. The argument has been made that the threat
of suicide bombings, though real, does not itself constitute a
genuine threat to Israeli national security and should not
trigger the kind of response Israel is making.
Today's events change all of this.
First, the United States no longer can argue that Israel should
endure the bombings. Moving forward, the domestic American
political mood simply won't tolerate such a stance.
Second, Israel now becomes, once again, an indispensable ally to
the United States. The United States is obviously going to launch
a massive covert and overt war against the international radical
Islamic movement that is assumed to be behind this attack. Not
only does this align U.S. and Israeli interests but it also makes
the United States dependent on the Israelis -- whose intelligence
capabilities in this area as well as covert operational
capabilities are clearly going to be needed.
Excuse me...big winner, intended or not?
Is this a suggestion that some Israeli faction might be involved?
Who benefits? Who pays?
I can't see this being a Palestinian operation. The last thing they want is a pissed-off US pouring more money into Israel. It might have been Bin Laden but I would've expected him to show more of a sick sense of "pride" in his handiwork. The Iraqis? maybe, but Iraq is monitored pretty closely and they know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of US ire. Answer who benefits and you might be close to uncovering the source of this wickedness.
This'll probably get modded to hell, but I don't care. Karma isn't everything.
You're using her as bait, Master!
but if we kill terrorists, at least those we kill won't be able to do anything like this again.
Great idea, but it lacks the reality component. You see, you can kill them, kill them all. Then next year, there is another, and after him/her there is another. There will always be another. You see, terrorism will always exist as long as it is effective. As long as it spurs a reaction that may cause a nation to change.
The main objective of a terrorist is to make the civil public change their views which in turn changes public policy and the government's role. Does it always work? Not really. But it does make us think about the message. It makes us think "Why would someone be so desperate to make themselves heard that they would kill thousands of civilians as well as themselves?" That question is followed by the inevitable "...and what is that message??".
I am not saying that just ignoring this terrible attack is the way to go. I still think making whomever is responsible pay is a priority. But I think that we need to maintain our focus as a nation and to look into ways that we can make this type of terrorism ineffective and as difficult as possible to implement.
google groups
:-(
This madman was warning people about the event before it happened!
This guy seemed to be warning people on the newsgroup about the end of the world, etc etc. And that tomorrow you will understand my warnings, blah blah blah.
Maybe it's crap, but it's still fricken given me chills.
Not only monetarially, even though my company has donated over $500,000 already, there have been many, many more stories of fantastic generosity in the face of these attacks. Allow me to share a story.
I have a story to relate about blood donating today. My wife Melissa and I went to our local donation center yesterday to try to donate blood. We picked our daughter Alexis up early from school and went to stand in line. We got there around 3 and put our names on the list. After waiting about 45 minutes or so we were told it would be at least a couple more hours, so we went home and made some sandwiches and had a light dinner, then went back around 5. Around 6:20 we were told the nurses were exhausted and wouldn't be able to get very many more people through and we were asked to make appointments for donating the next day. We made an appointment for noon the next day and left.
All of that is kind of peripheral to the story though. The real story is the vast number of other people who were there. There was a line of people out the door and halfway around the building. I'd estimate a hundred people or more. For a donation center which only services about a dozen people a day on a regular day, this was an extremely busy day. They were eliminating much of the paperwork and putting it off so they could keep up the rate at which they actually drew blood(I later found out that they had stayed past 11 to catch up on the paperwork even though they stopped drawing blood around 7). But the donors were there, and they stayed there for HOURS. There were people who were there, standing outside the doors of the donation center, from before noon until almost 6 PM. The mood was very friendly, there was not too much chatting, everything was kind of subdued, but optimistic and glad to do whatever they could to help, even though they were hundreds of miles away(the DFW area) and no one I spoke with knew anyone in those areas. They were just there because they felt it was the right thing to do. There was a little bit of grumbling when people were turned away, but most made future appointments.
Today Melissa and I went back for our noon appointment. The place was packed again. There was a line out the door AGAIN! There were donations of food and refreshments from local stores. Papa Johns pizza had a person who had come out early that morning with the back of his SUV loaded with pizza and sodas. He donated blood and then spent the rest of the day handing out pizza and drinks to any and everyone who wanted some who was waiting in line. He left a couple of times to go get more and fresh pizza for the staff and people donating. The backup and wait was large again. People were taking a number, getting a time estimate of when their number would be called then going back to work and calling in when their time was close. If they were about to be called, they left work and came back. And they REALLY DID COME BACK!
Jason's Deli dropped off several party trays of snacks and bags and bags of deli sandwiches like they would bring to a catered event. The Kroger down the street came by with supplies of bottled water and food because many people, myself included, were skipping lunch to come stand in line. Both today and last night there were several people who took the day off work/school to volunteer at the center to handle the non-medical work. They were passing out questionnaires, making sure all the donor info was filled out correctly, keeping the lines flowing smoothly and doing their best to keep the work flowing well. I estimate six or seven volunteers last night and an equal number today. Things like bringing new bags and tourniquets for the nurses, keeping the lines in order, walking up and down the lines answering questions about the wait, how long you have to wait between donations, reassuring people who were first-time donors and who were nervous.
There was a young man who skipped school today because he felt that volunteering to help the nurses at the donation center was more important. When I saw him he was helping a woman who was feeling faint after donating by keeping her company and keeping a cool, wet rag on her forehead and bringing her drinks and snacks. He was running errands for the nurses and helping patients in any way he could. He was cracking jokes and making many people feel more comfortable during what is a very nerve wracking experience for first time donors. The nurses expressed their appreciation for his efforts a couple of times in the short time I was there.
The number of people who shared their time, their money, their very lifeblood(literally!) to give aid to strangers whom they shared nothing with except the distinction of being Americans. Then the acknowledgement of the needs of the support workers who do vital things like draw blood and the outpouring of help given by volunteers and local businesses. Melissa and I were spending time re-assuring first time donors(I've donated well over a gallon and Melissa has donated several times as well) and while she was on the table(after I was done) I took the kids and went across the street and purchased several gallons of orange juice and apple juice to stock the pantry of the donation center(it is important to drink juice or water, not soda, because soda is a diuretic). I wish I could do more and so do many of the other people who were in line. America has a fantastic reputation for pulling together in a time of crisis, and I consider myself privileged to have been in the same room with so many giving, caring people yesterday and today. If any of you can, please donate blood and/or support the Red Cross.
I'm including a snippet of an email sent out to us at work with contact info for the local Red Cross and donation info. If you're not in the DFW area, please look up your local chapter and ask what they need. Typically they need money because they can't ship supplies up there due to air travel restrictions.
If you would like to donate money, you can make checks payable to Red Cross, and mail directly to:
Red Cross
4800 Harry Hines Blvd.
Dallas, TX 75235
Writing DR789 in the memo line of your check will ensure the money goes directly to the victims of the WTC and Pentagon tragedies.
Or, you can call 1-800-HELP-NOW to make a donation by phone. For more information, go to the Red Cross website at www.redcross.org. Since they are having heavy web traffic today, you may or may not be able to access the site.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
The outpouring of generousity is incredible, but let's not forget that there is going to be a fund established for the families of all the firefighters, policemen, medical workers and other who died performing their duty, trying to get civilians to safety.
At least 300 firefighters are missing and presumed dead. While I'm sure they all have nice pensions, it often isn't enough. One firefighter is reported to have 10 children and the question is raised who will take care of them with their father gone?
I myself have three friends who are firefighters (over in CA, they mourn the loss of their comrades across the country) and I hope that we all don't get lost in the moment. I'm sure the Red Cross has the resources they need right now to provide care (except for blood, which they probably still need) so try to remember there is going to be a LOT of need in the coming months.
It will be a very cold winter for many NY families.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Im sorry to say.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Forget about keeping the moral high ground in the Middle East because you never had it. Instead, protect your interests. Make sure you win, not them. Forget about the "good guy" winning because if you lift up the veil you may find the "good guy" is not you, or anyone else.
Yes, I would have to agree that the terrorists practiced perhaps the ultimate act of self-sacrifice.
This is probably why I don't think much of self-sacrifice, whether on my behalf or others.
By referring to Iraq as a starving country, we ignore that Saddam Hussein is a brutal man who has knifed many of his friends and opponents over the years. He has also exacerbated his country's own situation by dragging his feet on humanitarian aid negotiations. I really need not remind you that this situation has in no way affected his lifestyle or that of his cronies.
I agree that this kind of act is not terribly surprising considering the ease with which it can be done and the notorious passions seething within the middle east. But I don't think we can prevent future attacks by lying down, putting our heads in the sand and listening to "peace activists". Negotiation works far better from strength; ask anyone on a job interview.
D
You understimate the spiritual,philosophical, and intellectual *strength* of the terrorist groups involved - many of which have far higher moral and ethical codes by which they have *lived an entire life*, than your average American politician.
...
To do nothing, as a politician, in the face of this terrorist act, would be the *ultimate* response.
Too blind to see that, perhaps, by your own hatred and lack of understanding for cultures and mores not your own
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
There are hundreds of known terrorists. I don't think that the point of this lesson is to mobilize the entire United States in the effort to wipe out one specific terrorist group. It should extend to all terrorists. The denial given out by various terrorist groups only show that they are terrorist groups. Since terrorism at any scale is reprehnsible it should not make one iota of difference if you bomb a cafe with no casualties or follow through on the recent, horrible events. You should be treated the same way.
The problem lies in the fact that there is no tangible target which to direct military force. Bombs cannot descriminate between the innocent and the guilty, soldiers can, but they have to know what to look for. Terrorists are small groups of people who plan in secret and are not very keen on announcing their intentions. The only way to detect these people is with Police and Inteligence agencies. The military can provide the force at that point.
I bet the US government will attack the Afgahn Taliban and make many arrests, to the cheers of it's citizens, but the problem of terrorism will still remain. The only way to combat this effectively is to severly restrict the freedoms and processes of society as we know it. It's analagous to network security as I'm sure many here can relate. You must constantly screen traffic and be on the look out for bad stuff. Rouge procceses and the like. This means monitoring things much more closely. You had better be prepared for greater Police power and restricted rights. Just imagine, a Police state with 'Firewall USA' installed on your borders harbours and airports. If this is becomes a reality, in an awful sort of sense, this terrorist attack will have succeeded in destroying the American way of life. We can only pray that justice is done and that power is used responsibly.
All a coder really wants, are fast cars, fast women and fast algorithms.
Perhaps what we need to do is just invest in their country. Turn it into Starbuck's land. Overwhelm them with everything they hate about our country. Drown them in VCR's and Satellite TV. Turn them into TV addled zombies like we are so that they will fear death. Hell, make them fear not being home in time to watch the new episode of Friends.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Something I just thought of a little while ago, to help me gain some perspective on what happened:
A Boeing 767-400ER has a maximum takeoff mass of a shade more than 200,000 kg. It has a typical cruise speed of 840 km/h.
Using our favorite formula for kinetic energy, that comes to about 5.6 billion Joules, or between one and two tons of TNT.
Or, in other words, just the force of that much mass at that speed is about the same as a WWII blockbuster bomb. Add in some twenty thousand gallons of jet fuel...and I still can't wrap my mind around that much destructive force.
And I thought cars on the freeway were deadly!
May such magnificient machines never again be used for such awful, awful purpose.
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
All the money from PayPal's donation page goes there also, just like the Amazon page. The site is here...
l ief-outside
Or copy and paste: http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/re
I believe that Canada has freely shared firefighters with us when fighting wildfires, and I seem to recall other crews from as far away as Australia.
The author has some valid points, but the US usually doesn't require much outside help because few disasters affect us nationally. When we do, Canada and our other friends have always come to our aid.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
IANAL, but it should be okay for you to keep personal copies of what you've recorded.
They have long term historical value.
Who knows, in a million years or so, there may no longer be any copyright issues to contend with.
And lead us not into fair use,
but deliver us from copyright infringement.
For thine is the copyright, and the patent, and the trademark
forever and ever
Amen.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
A general overview of some companies' status. (I didn't see this on AP/Reuters newsfeeds.) Some message boards are attempting to collect lists of survivors such as this.
His stuff reads like he was just mouthing off. But he'll probably be interviewed by the FBI anyway.
Here where I work, I've sent an email to everyone saying "if you want to donate but don't want to use your credit card, come to see me to give your donation and I will issue the whole payment as 1 transaction with my credit card, if everyone could donate 5$ or 10$, it's not much, but together we can make a difference".
Some people do lunches on friday or order pizza, well maybe for juste one week they should be grateful for living and escaping that inhuman act, and bring a lunch and donate the money they'd usually spend.
Just some ideas... I'm sure some people are reading this right now and wish to pay but don't want to give their CCs because of security in electronic transactions, or go to the trouble of signing up, well now you can do a difference.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
How about a source?
I work for Sun and have been told by internal mail direct from the execs and our security people that all of our WTC employees got safely out.
Oh and there were only 250 total in the building.
Holding a short position on Sun stock by any chance?
In other words, NATO has agreed that the organization is in a state of war. Even if this doesn't put each individual NATO member country into a state of war, this is not good news.
I'm scared of what might happen next.
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." - Mahatma Ghandi
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46766,00. html
It's pretty damn nice to see that *someone* recognizes that the value of the internet in such a horrendous crisis doesn't come from one or two companies posting information, but from hundreds and thousands of... dare I say it... heroic individuals who do their little insignifcant part to take care of people.
Kudos to sites like Slashdot and ESPN. Super Kudos to all the individuals with webcams and mirror sites. You guys did the country and world an invaluable service yesterday. As someone who is separated by thousands of miles from the horror, I thank you for giving us a information line into what really happened.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
This has been implemented there is also not going to be anymore curbside baggage handling. The only allowable COL will be women's handbags which will be emptied to be searched no matter what. We go this at our Travel Co today.
Statement of Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta
One of the most cherished American freedoms is the freedom of movement, the ability to move freely and safely. Today that freedom has been attacked. We will restore that freedom throughout the national transportation system as soon as possible. And we will restore the highest possible degree of safety.
These terrorist acts are designed to steal the confidence of Americans. We will restore that confidence. We have already taken some first steps. As a precaution, I have ordered the FAA to ground all commercial air traffic until at least tomorrow afternoon.
After the attacks, some of our aircraft were diverted to Canada. We owe our Canadian neighbors a debt of gratitude for helping us redirect over 120 flights and their passengers to airports in Canada.
As of 6:00 p.m., AMTRAK resumed its passenger rail service. Major railroads have taken steps to protect their assets, as well.
The United States Coast Guard is taking all necessary actions to control the movement of any vessel in any navigable water in the United States. Coast Guard helicopters have been assisting with medical and national security tasks.
We are currently looking at a wide variety of additional security measures to increase traveler security.
Travelers will see increased security measures at our airports, train stations and other key sites. There will be higher levels of surveillance, more stringent searches. Airport curbside luggage check-in will no longer be allowed. There will be more security officers, random identification checks. Travelers may experience some inconveniences. We ask for your patience. But we must do whatever it takes, with safety as our highest priority.
The Department of Transportation is working closely with the White House and appropriate federal agencies to mount a coordinated, nationwide recovery effort.
Each American must know that we will restore our national transportation system to a safe and efficient status as quickly as possible. Our system has been severely burdened by the stress of these horrendous attacks, but we will recover.
In a democracy, there is always a balance between freedom and security. Our transportation systems, reflecting the values of our society, have always operated in an open and accessible manner. And, they will again.
Please be assured that we are activating all of our resources on an emergency basis, and services will be restored as soon as possible.
This
It is highly unlikely that the Internet was used in any way to organize, plan, target, or launch these attacks. Chances are that none of the 20+ terrorists involved even had an email account, and if they did, it was a hotmail account used as a cover, with a subscription to a couple pro-Israel mailing lists, and a web browser history showing a few visits to flight booking sites and a bit of porn browsing on the weekends.
The Internet is monitored, logged, and data-mined like no other communications medium. It is undependable, insecure, and would not be used by terrorists for the same reasons that it is not used by the US government to plan our reprisals.
The Internet isn't good for anything much more important than Quake.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I can confirm that this is what we have been told inside Sun. All our WTC employees got out fine. None of our pentagon employees were hurt.
The architect of the buildings themselves gave an interview that specifically said that the building were over-engineered for NATURAL disasters, not aircraft crashes. He said they did withstand the impacts but the explosive forces of the impacts probably stripped the fire-proofing from the steel supports, which then probably melted in the jet-fuel heat.
He said that the sprinkler systems were designed for paper, cardboard, and desk fire loads--jet fuel doesn't respond so well to water sprinklers, that's why the aviation buildings he designed have foam fire extinguisher systems--NOT water.
Once again, the architect of the trade towers themselves insisted that the buildings were prepared for any natural disaster, but that disasters like this could obviously *not* be prepared for.
He also said he didn't even know whether or not the sprinkler systems were activated, let alone helping or hindering matters any.
He said that the heat from the jet fuel melted the steel supports and that probably only a single floor gave way--but that the momentum from the drop (with all the floors above it) was enough to overload the supports below, and the supports below that, and so on right down to ground floor.
So please make the correction--they weren't designed to withstand jet impact. Maybe a propellor airplane, maybe not--I have no idea where you got that info from. Doesn't matter.
-sudog
Go read The Risks Digest. Then come back and explain in great and convincing detail how you've solved the problems of managing technical complexity and especially it's interface to the human element in automated control systems such as you're proposing.
I don't know the solution to this problem, but it's in the human domain, not the technical.
--
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
right after the WTC went down, the Petrona towers announced the message "Attention, the Petronas Towers are now the tallest buildings in the world." Or soemthing along those lines, i'm not kidding, my local news station reported that.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
i agree, but I would rephrase to say that this IS a good time to question the PAST behavior of our government, while SUPPORTING the government as a unified nation as it goes forward.
for more on this topic, read my earlier reply.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
If that was your wife, mother, or child on that plane that went down would you want to see the uncensored video? I really don't think that's the last image you'd want to have of your loved ones.
And a link to an image I found on another message board which pretty much sums up my feelings about the matter.
http://www.bailbondsupplies.com/chris_only/home
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
Does anyone have any objection to facial recognition systems at customs? And a database of people who should either be checked out carefully, bounced, or arrested on the spot?
Didn't think so.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
so, the world trade center is burned to the ground like a bundle of sticks.
...
(literally - from an engineering standpoint, the 'bundle of sticks tied together' that was the WTC infrastructure was undone with a simple burn)
and all that's left is stones.
oh, and a whole lotta name calling
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Not all terrorists do not fear death. Bin Laden for instance does. He's not the one who's performing the suicide attacks, his minions are. The Taliban, who are harboring Bin Laden, also fear death.
Sure, as I understand it, their belief is that dying for their cause is a straight ticket to heaven, but that doesn't mean they don't fear death. Christians also believe that they will be sent to heaven at their death, but that doesn't erase the fear of death in all of us. And obviously whoever is behind this, fears death, because they haven't taken accountability for it. These people aren't fearless, they're cowards.
The reason that these terrorists are willing to die isn't common to their culture. It's common to any military establishment. The purpose of training soldiers is to get them to do things rational people would not normally do. We train our soldiers this way, and every army in history had to lead men, who had a better chance of dying than surviving into a battle. In war there is an expected loss of life on all sides, everyone involved is aware of this.
Making these terrorists out to be somehow braver than Americans is simply false. Up to 300 firefighters risked and lost their lives trying to save people at the WTC. They knew they were at risk, and put their lives in harms way to help someone else. This is bravery on a national scale. A few terrorists lost their lives, to perform a dispicable and cowardly act, this is not bravery.
These terrorists do not have the tools or the resolution to win. We can, should and will fight them. America has the resources, resolution, and unity to do this, the commitment from our allies only makes us stronger. These terrorists are weak, and they are cowards. They will fall quickly, and those who have harbored them in the past will be afraid to harbor them in the future.
I have a couple of points to make:
First, though I'm not neccesarily advocating the arming of pilots in cockpits, cabin de-pressurization is not that bad of a thing when compared to many alternatives. If a cabin becomes de-pressurized in flight due to a puncture in the fuselage, about the worse thing that would happen is the plane would drop a few thousand feet in order to move to a higher pressurized atomosphere. The plane would not become unflyable. Drop down masks would come down so people can breathe and the plane could be diverted to an immediate landing strip, assuming the emergency situation (terrorists) was brought under control. We all remember stories in the past about parts of planes falling off. We all remember when a huge part of the fuselage popped off a plane and people were sucked out. Even that plane landed successfully, and that is far worse than a 9mm hole in the side of the plane.
Second, air marshals were commonplace on commercial flights in the US in the 60's. Israel has been using them for many years. As a note, Israel, a country more affected by terrorism than any other nation on Earth, has never had a civilian airliner hiijacked. Granted, that is, in large part, due to more than just air marshals, but they are a key part of the security plan that Israel implements.
Personally, I think separating the cabin is a better solution. It would not stop hiijackers (because of the hostage situations which the pilots would have to deal with), but would prevent the kind of suicide attacks we saw yesterday.
However, separating the pilot cabin would require a replacement or significant structural changes to exisiting air fleets, which cannot happen in a very timely fashion. This is part of a long-term approach, but should be coupled with some short term measures including the presence of air marshals on flights and the de-privitization of airport security. Trained police and/or military personnel should be used to ensure airport security. The under $10/hour rent-a-cops should be sent back to the shopping malls.
By the way, I just heard on the news that the FAA has re-instated the sky marshal policy.
Terror and terror attacks is nothing new. There are conflicts all over the world, people have been fighting and killing each other for generations in similar suicide attacks. We see there what happens when every answer to an attack is raging retaliation. We just have to look at Israel the past months to see people killing themselves over and over again in order to get revenge.
People that were not involved before become involved. Innocent people are suddenly victims, and soon enough they are fighting back to the best of their ability. I think we all can agree that this is a vicious circle.
Many wise people have said this before, but I will say it again: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: Let the retaliation that will come only involve people that were directly responsible for this attack. Not only the US, but the world at large must agree that the retaliation hit only the people that deserved it. Otherwise this is just the first turn of a wheel that will turn over and over and over again.....
Talking with pilots, they say learning to fly a 767 on MS Flight Sim is laughable, even when you don't have to take off and land.
As it happens the Israelies have solved this one.
They have a gun (special bullet i believe) tht has a large bullet and low muzzle velocity. Will put down a human, wont go through steel.
But secondly, to be honest, in a hijacking ill take my chances with depressurization. If the hijacker is put down there are always the breathing masks for the passengers.
It's a little more complicated in that Saddam didn't mind getting aid passed to the people of Iraq, as long as *he* controlled the distribution of it. The US and various aid organizations, having witnessed past aid in Ethiopia and other countries get diverted to soldiers and withheld from ordinary citizens said "no thanks". But yeah, I basically agree with you; I don't think the "US sanctions have killed hundreds of thousands" held much water when Saddam, having refused aid, was using his spare cash to build more palaces (and weapons).
A friend at Sun claims everyone got out OK. They were on floors 23 and 24 in building 2.
only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything and never even get a thank
you for the things we do.
Well, appreciation is nice and all, I agree. But what I wish is that we Americans would start opening our eyes to the bad things we do.
To use a ridiculously absurd analogy, consider what just happened to be a way-over-the-top tasteless flame. It is natural and perhaps justified to put the flamer in his place. But the truly noble person will also be able to look at that flame and see whether there was something true in the flamer's argument, and, if there is, take the true part to heart and do something to change it.
You don't have to agree with or even tolerate the flamer's methods--you can still work to get his account revoked because of his misbehavior. I'm all in favor of that. BUT, if you want to really be the best that you can, you will look for the faults in your own actions that contributed to the flamer's feelings.
As some people have observed, that might help you avoid being flamed like that in the future--but, completely aside from that, it's the right thing to do, and something that you should be doing anyway.
Liberty uber alles.
For the last 36 hours, I've been keeping a weblog of the events in New York and DC, largely from the perspective of amateur vidoe and still photographers, keeps of weblogs and journals.
World New York.
Wordnik, a dictionary project which aims to collect
Im going to answer this in one place-- here.
I considerd this, there are two answers:
(1) The Isrealies have already solved this problem. They have a gun that shoots a large bullet with low muzzle velocity. Will put down a human but wont go through even the thin steel of an airplane.
(2) Frankly in a hiucjackign ill take my chances with depressurization. If the hijcakers are put down tehr are always the breathing masks for the passengers.
Oh and finally, in re trianing. As i mentioend in the original post, almost all if not all US comemrical airline pilosta re retired airforce pilots. (its abotu the only way an individual cna get Jet training in the US.) So actually they have already BEEN trained in the ahndling of a firearm.
Those have been coming out weekly or so since the USS Cole was bombed, possibly longer. Ask anyone working on a military base. Most of the time, the Washington Post doesn't even pick up on them anymore.
--
Just lurking, thanks!
One of the characteristics of resistance groups - and make no mistake that is how these people see themselves - is that if you start out with 100 revolutionaries and execute 90, when you're finished you don't have 10, or even 100, but 10,000, or even more.
What do others think of this guy's messages?
This one is erie (see message subject and date of message) and others he has posted.
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
The two pilots struggled to subdue the hijacker. They were able to hold him down enough that one pilot was able to take back the aircraft controls and pull the plane out of the dive. The plane exceeded Mach I during the dive, the pull-out stresses warped parts of the aircraft, and counterbalance weights in the tail were torn off. But the plane held together.
The plane was landed intact at Memphis, the hijacker was arrested, convicted, and is in prison, and one of the pilots was too injured to fly again. The plane itself was repaired and returned to service.
maybe if you read my earlier reply which i linked to you would have seen that i agree with you, and, given the choice, i believe that the american people would agree as well.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
I didn't know that McViegh was a suicide bomber.
He's dead, ain't he?
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
i actually hadn't considered that, a very good point. but obviously their own food, medicine, etc, producers are not doing well as it is widely believe that the Iraqi people are generally very underfed and generally without medical care?
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
...there is still a slight difference between the criminal himself and someone helping a criminal - and criminal law fully recognizes that difference: the murderer gets the chair (at least in your civilized country, over here, he'll have to settle for lifelong imprisonment), the guy who hides him gets away with maybe a couple of years.
And, by the way, killing innocent people was acceptable in WW2 and should be equally acceptable now? Did it ever occur to you that that was propably exactly what those suicide pilots were thinking?
frotz grue
Even better, make the flight deck inaccessible from the passenger cabin. Stretch the bodies of airplanes a meter or two, or take out a couple of rows of seats. Give the pilots their own door to the outside, a toilet and bed, and food & drink facilities, and put a nice thick metal wall between them and the passengers.
The idea of computers taking over when humans fail (as judged by the machines) is an old idea, and a wrong idea. Who would provide backup for the autopilot, then? Override by ground control might come too late, and anyway, how can they trust the pilot? And if ground control can send an override permission signal, the terorrists can also do that.
What happens, for example, if for some reason the aircrafts position gets reported wrongly by a very small distance, e.g. the plane thinks its 100 meters more west than it actually is. When the pilot tries to land, the plane will think he'll be crashing it (either by missing the runway, or by coming down too early / too late, depending on the runway heading), and take over. There will be no way to land that aircraft.
You might also want to note that you're arguing against having any pilot at all. If you think that machines can handle emergency situations better than a human, then I suppose they should also be able to handle routine situatuations. Would you board a flight where the aircraft has no pilot?
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
I think an important thing to note here is that this article was written nearly 30 years ago. The facts that you accurately pointed out as false were very true when this article was written.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
(disclaimer) From news sources (/disclaimer) I read that those in one jet were encouraged to phone loved ones to tell them they were going to die by flying into the White House. This plane then flew into the Pentagon instead. Hence raising the White House as a target was merely a distraction from the REAL target. I've heard nothing about Airforce One from any source and it sounds incredibly improbable. I think you've made a mistake.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
I guess you also perfer to drive a car where a computer takes over when you break the speed limit?
(Sorry for posting two replies, this one came to my mind just after I posted the first one.)
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
The Washington Post has two webpages showing a listing of all the businesses in the World Trade Center, sorted by name, but also showing which floor each business was on, both Tower 1 and Tower 2. Interesting to see the non-US companies listed there, but more grimly relevant for gauging survival probabilities of friends/acquaintances/loved ones.
--LP
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Dumbass: You completely utterly singularly missed the point. Everyone already knows the bad things, this was the other side of the story. Wake up, idiot.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
If the world hates us so much why have the Canadians, Russians, British, and even the Palestinian leaders all expressed their sorrow and sent their sympathies? Why has NATO offered full use of it's military resources.
Everyone keeps talking about how we should look at how hated the US is, why because some third world countries aren't to keen on our actions? I for one am taking a different approach, I am very proud to see the worlds powers standing by us in support in this hard time.
It's ashame that some Americans such as yourself care less about the country than Russians.
If this was a game of Civ, that might be what I would do.
This isn't a game of Civ.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
the discussions on these pages has been eye opening. i hope that if anything i have learned to trust even less the american media and the actions of our government. from responses of anonymous cowards (no disrespect intended) to my own searches for information, i compiled this short list of links detailing some of the things our government does which gets VERY little attention by our media.
the effects of the iraqi embargo
two page bio of bin Laden from pbs.org
one discussion thread on this page discussing increasing American globalization
another thread on this page discussing US export of arms
please note i in no way whatsoever condone these attacks or terrorist acts of any kind. i just hope americans can wake up to the wool over their eyes when in comes to our foreign policies.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. [Emphasis mine]
What this says is that the members of NATO agree to do whatever they want. The real meaning of Article V is in the second paragraph:
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security (1). [Emphasis mine]
The point of Article V is not mutual defense, it is disclosure of actions and the termination of activity once the Security Council says so.
Article V is not about standing up for each other. It's a safety measure to make sure no member of NATO obliterates an enemy. It's to keep NATO functioning militarily as a unit, to prevent drawn out international conflict.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I think you're mistaken. Terrorism is not "to cause change" and these attacks were not designed to cause the US to retaliate.
These people's lives are based on hatred. The purpose of the attacks is simply to hurt people; specifically, to hurt Americans. We have no choice but to destroy such minds. Left alive they will continue to act the same way no matter what our reaction is. That's why it's flawed to ask what the US should be doing differently to demotivate these people. That's like suggesting that there is something a black man could do to avoid the KKK. These terrorists live for hatred, and there is nothing that will change that.
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
Do I hold all Americans responsible for this?
No, but you should hold the Irish-Americans who support the IRA responsible. It's disgusting that they support the IRA, and Britian should be charging them as criminals.
I don't hold ALL Muslims and Arabs responsible. But those who have stood by and silently encouraged terrorism should be ashamed and disgusted with what has been done with their help and in their name. If they aren't, they should be exterminated.
Better than anyone else, they know the names and the trails. It's their responsibility to turn in the murderers. If they continue to stand by silently, they should be exterminated.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
It is your arrogance that assumes that death has not been presented to me in the same way that you are facing. I have faced death, in ways I hope you can only ever imagine.
Attack me personally, if you wish - but ignore the understanding of the world that lays behind my commentary at your own peril.
I can understand you're upset. You've never had to deal with something like this before, in the safety and comfort of your metropolis. I'm sure your daily runs to Starbucks will resume, once it's all cleaned up for you. Perhaps, over the next cup o' bean, you'll give pause to think about just what sort of charade it is you're living, and what it takes to keep it there.
You think you're the first person on the planet to have to walk across body parts to get to sanctity? What, exactly, do you think the American war machine produces, exactly?
Fried chicken?
Its denizens must realize that the way of life outside the gates of The New Babylon is a *very* different way indeed. A very different way.
Mark my words, America is the New Babylon, and its towers are falling
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Fine, but when you're done bombing "THEIR mothers, daughters and children", don't be surprised when the one's you miss come back to show their appreciation.
You probably have more in common with the people who carried out this attack than you realize. It seems unlikely that they came to be the way they are/were without stepping over a few body parts. I guess they were angry too, and I guess they figured their anger justified bombing innocent men and women too.
People say "I don't understand how anyone could do such a thing - killing innocent civilians", then they say, "we must have revenge, even if this involves killing innocent civilians". You understand them all too well.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
I humbly submit a link to a respectful and funny story about the resiliency of New Yorkers in the light of yesterday's tragedy.
http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?disp
sept 11?
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The NATO disaster/rescue unit has been made available to the US.
but the problem is that hundreds of thousands HAVE died, and regardless of who brought this on the people (Saddam) obviously our sanctions are NOT having the right effect.
how bad have the sanctions been? read this from a seattle news source.
yes the government of Iraq should suffer, but the people should NOT, and right now they ARE SUFFERING. we need to do SOMETHING.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Why not physically seperate the cockpit from the rest of the aircraft? Currently, regulations and company policy make it so that their should be a door between the cockpit and passenger cabin, and that door is normally locked. However, if the pilots had a seperate external entrance to the cockpit, it would make it pretty much impossible for the hijackers to threaten the pilots directly, or attempt to take over the controls.
Not to say this would prevent all hiijacks (you can still threaten the entire plane with a bomb or kill passengers to persuade the pilots), but it would prevent aircraft from being physically controlled by hijackers, and used as flying bombs.
Just a thought...
that said why not keep an armed guard in plainclothes on every plane. The cost per ticket wouldn't be much increased, whereas the safety would definitely increase. And I'm almost willing to bet most passengers (especially now) would be willing to pitch in an extra dollar for the safety precautions.
The sad news is the the spiritual kin of Amalek rise in every generation, and it is our responsiblity to destroy them.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Based on a lot of observing, conversations, & thinking since yesterday, I couldn't help but speculate on these disturbing perspectives:
all the hijackers -- feeling an air of invincibility about them, fearing nothing since they've reconciled their fates:
our brave actions will change the course of humanity forever.. our lives will be well spent in further realizing our worthy cause!
passengers at initial moment of hijacking:
oh my god.. oh my god.. i can't believe this is happening.. i'm going to be sick to my stomach.. oh my god..
scared passengers on both flights looking out windows, dawning on a terrifying realization:
they're not diverting us to another country? where are we going?! why are we flying so low?? no! no! no!!
office workers turning towards approaching jet engine noise:
OH S***!
pushed to the edge in desperation & panic.. some trapped people fall & jump from the towers:
better a quick death than being burned alive.. [stomachs clenched, eyes closed, overwhelmed by the effects of g-force and the tremendous rush of air]
hijackers in the 2nd plane, in visual range of target, given a morale boost:
look! our compatriots successfully carried out their attack! we must not fail in ours! let us gloriously complete this! [bank the wings 45 degrees for maximum structural damage spread..] no pain, no time for pain.. this will be over in the blink of an eye
executives and staff on top floors of both towers, who likely had numerous advantages in life going for them:
oh my god.. oh my god.. this can't be happening, it can't end like this! not now.. oh please god, let me get out of this alive..
various observers, remarking on further ramifications:
I wonder how much asbestos is in that air..
better load up on gas.. stock up on everything..
what's going to happen to my investments?
how can I profit from this? I wonder what plays I should make in the market when it reopens..
thanks to the criminal jerks of the world here comes the further erosion of our personal liberties.. from no longer being able to leave your bikes on your lawns and having not to lock up everything 20 years ago and being free to light fireworks in every city.. to ever-tightening gun control laws.. and now this.. this inevitable approach of the police state
the end times are closer than ever.. Revelations..
===
[Finally, I'd like to offer my own analysis on this event.]
In the big picture this is just another evolution in human society. Two forces collide, neither willing to back down. This will escalate in fits and starts until an equilibrium point is established through a war of attrition, and even before then humanity will characteristically be well into its next point of conflict.
Repeat this process until a workable common ground is roughly pounded out for all, at least until evolutionary drifts once again create too much disparity for peace to bear.
History/Evolution is an enormously multi-factored process. No individual or mere group of individuals can bear 100% of whatever is to be blamed. Every individual automatically tries their personal best within the seen & unseen boundaries of their circumstances, contributing to matching societal forces accordingly. If we wish to effect change for the better, we are already doing it, or else our circumstances do not permit us to.
In light of the horrific events of September 11, 2001, the World has to change, and it falls to the United States to be the instrument of that change.
With the fall of the Soviet Union, the most immediate and powerful threat to western interests and ideals, America had expected the world to become a safer and saner place. This regrettably is not the case. The irrational acts of fanatical, misguided, and just plain evil men, show that we cannot just leave the world to sort out its problems for itself. I had once been one to criticize the U.S. in the past for its tendency toward unilateral action on the world stage, but it now seems the world stage is a farce and a facade. The U.N. has been hijacked by angry, petty nations who are too myopic to see all their fundamental problems stem from denial of basic freedoms to their people. Name one truly democratic nation with a free press that feels oppressed by the other democratic nations of the world. I surely can't. The oppression perceived by undemocratic nations and the people that live in them is an imaginary construct. The control of information within these societies in effect creates a brainwashed populace, all too eager to blame external forces for their plight, rather than place the blame where deserved, their own cynical, self serving leadership.
Does the United States or some other democratic nation ever exploit or take advantage of countries less blessed with wealth and freedom? Yes. Does this make democracy or freedom evil? No. Such exploitation would not occur if the nations that perceived this abuse were fair brokers themselves. If you want true free trade with the civilized world, this includes the free trade of information and ideas. Enough carping, complaining and finger pointing about injustices of the past. Look within the borders of those doing the finger pointing. How could you not recognize that half their population, the female half, are not just second class citizens, but slaves? Their legal justice systems a joke. Torture and murder common and condoned for ancient and petty reasons. Fanaticism exalted and idealized.
There is a politically correct notion that all cultures are unique, and therefor need to be preserved in present form. I say there are cultures that suffer a cancer of intolerance and oppression. It is not intolerance and oppression to excise these elements from nations, societies and cultures, that have demonstrated they cannot do so for themselves, and to place within these states, institutions to ensure the rights of their citizenry. Look to Japan if you think this cannot be done.
America has again and again expressed exasperation at the lack of restraint other countries have exercised in dealing with external and terrorist threats. Our own restraint has bought us nothing. Certainly not the respect of those who see our restraint as weakness.
While our actions must be just, they must also to an extent be preemptive. Criminal and terrorist elements must not be allowed to consolidate power, wealth and influence. Once we have dispatched those who have quickly brought us harm, we must turn our eyes to those that slowly suck the soul of our nation, and corrupt the nations they operate from. I speak of course of the drug trade. Whether you favor the decriminalization of drugs or not, there is no reason to allow those who break our laws and violate our borders to evade consequences, while we at the same time incarcerate our own citizens who are in effect their victims. This network of crime, corruption and influence no doubt further diminishes our stature in the eyes of those that would do us harm, and emboldens them by our inability to deal certain justice to this undeniably evil and strictly self serving cabal of dealers in human misery.
As Pearl Harbor was a call to action in 1941, the current action of these terrorists is the same. To those that say these circumstances are different, the world more complex, the evil more hidden, I say do not look for shades of gray where there are none. While we may not know for certain all individuals involved, and the exact involvement of each individual, we know, or will know shortly with great certainty, the major players involved. And unlike their operatives who lash out at total innocents, we can and should surgically remove them like the cancer they are.
Unlike the `50s, `60s and `70s super powers' brinkmanship, there remains no reason to support the regimes of nations that fall short of realizing democratic ideals. Notice should be served to one and all, friend and foe, that only those nations who struggle to advance the freedoms and well being of their populations will be considered allies.
If America has fallen short in any of its ideals, now is a time to recapture their true essence: the responsible, fair and just wielding of power and influence to improve the condition of humanity as a whole. Implicit in this, the assumption that the condition of humanity is diminished by allowing evil, wherever it is, to flourish.
To those that hate America, I say you engage in a form of self hatred, as America is a mirror of the world. Its diverse citizenry, all of whom have a democratic say in its actions, include those who share your race, your religion, your culture. America will include their outrage, their sense of betrayal, in its retaliation for transgressions transcendent.
Letter To Iran
Nope, terrorism will exist as long as terrorists can convince themselves that it will be effective.These people aren't necessarily rational.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Let's remember folks:
gorilla: peaceful, vegetarian african ape
guerilla: irregular soldier, revolutionary, insurgent
While gorillas and guerillas can be found in similar climates, and may at times share habitats, gorillas are becoming fewer and fewer as time goes by. With guerillas, it's the opposite. I, for one, wish it was the other way around.
The system has failed you, don't fail yourself. --Billy Bragg
The Jerusalem Post appears to be a nasty bit of tabloid work. I sure as hell hope you're not relying on it for truthful news.
Little wonder that, with media such as this, there's no end to the hatred and tension in the mid-East. These papers are exacerbating the situation... as are, apparently, the politicians.
Truly fucking disgusting.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Unconventional could mean ' tactical nuclear strike'.
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
To those who think this is an isolated incident, let me point out that this enormous tragedy is only one attempt to disrupt, destroy, and devalue American lives. You are of course not hearing about the ninety-nine others in the past several years which failed.
The fact that this hasn't happened until now is due in large part to the tireless and heroic actions of the same government agencies -- military, Federal, state, and local -- that some of you ./ers love to deride, slander, and vilify without any firsthand knowledge whatsoever. (I encourage you to infer the obvious from the last few words.) These are the people who were the first to the sites when the attacks happened, the people who were crushed as the towers came down, those who went to work in a still-burning building because they knew that not to do so was allowing terrorist factions an unearned victory.
Returning to normal life shows that we will not be cowed by cowardly attacks on innocent civilians. It just so happens that by simply returning to their normal lives, these people are trying to keep us safe from the next attack... tomorrow, next week, next month, next year.
Please remember that before you hit your next "Submit" button.
Thanks for the story, now it's clear why the Pittsburg plane crashed...and some more info on the actual occurences...
and here's a nontracked and clickable link
Amazon.com as removed their normal fee for transactions in this case. Red Cross' web servers cannot handle the load that Amazon has already borne the brunt of. Their (Amazon.com) actions are noble and respectable. They are reaching out to the American people in this time of need by by donating their substantial infrastructure. We should not call their intentions into question, but be thankful that the resources are there to help us support those who have been afflicted by this horror. Now is not the time for petty grievances about spam and privacy. Now is the time when all of us should ban together and do what we can. Stand by your fellow Americans, whether they be private citizens, government entities or corporations. Now is not the time for dissent.
At least not to where it passes my comment threshold, so I'll post a bit here.
a rt =20&hl=en&rnum=23&selm=3b9ea07d%40news.vogel.pl
Someone posting in usenet newsgroup alt.prophecies.nostradamus some, well, seemingly informed messages, concerning the events of yesterday, these postings coming days in advance of the event, see this link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Xinoehpoel&st
I'm sure the proper authorities are aware of this, as someone has posted they forwarded this information to said authorities.
I don't want to comment on the typical traffic this particular newsgroup would see on a typical day outside of this tragedy, but these particular postings, while vague, do seem to be either somewhat informed or extremely cooincidental. It raises the question of how much could've been known or exposed via the internet before and after such events take place...
Depending on the agent used, it would probably kill me with a hyperthermia allergic reaction.
Not exactly the friendly skies...
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
The fast-food restaurants in the same airport pay workers $7 an hour to start.
Perhaps this says something about our priorities?
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
NASA has put some photos of the smoke plume on their website.
They can be seen at http://www.nasa.gov/newsinfo/WTCplume.html. Very interesting!
In fact such a peace treaty is simply impossible. The Palestinians will never compromise on their demand for the right of return for the Palestinian refugees created in past wars. That demand is what sunk any hope of a deal even with Barak, who was willing to compromise on just about everything else. On the other hand, Israel can never accept such a demand, because to give in would mean instant demographic suicide, the end of Israel's being a Jewish state. (As it is, within 20 years Israel might have more Palestinians than Jews.)
What seems inevitable is that Israel will decide to create even more Palestinian refugees in a desperate effort to physically partition the nation with a defensible perimeter. On that day the other Middle Eastern nations will have to decide whether or not to start an all-out, possible nuclear, war with Israel. I'm not sure how US disengagement from the Arab governments surrounding Israel would help to prevent this war.
Let me get this straight
No proof of aghanistani imnovlvement at all
No proof it even was Bin Laden
No proof of any muslim complicity
Yet you suggest a ground war in a soveriegn nation ruled by an Islamic government ?
Geez thats a great idea, lets unite the muslim world against us and have a Jihad declared so they can kill as many people as they can,
and how hard would it be to win in Afghanistan - i mean the russians had so much luck didnt they !
Moron
Get pakistan onboard ? a muslim ruled country is going to support military action against a neighbour carried out by a major ally of their sworn enemy (India)
The sobiet republics count for shit anyway - have a think about the chinese reaction for a second - yeah they COULD win a world war against the us !
Move through IRAN ? Are you fucking mad ? IRan are playing nice and all but christ invade the country ? Let me see now - why DO you think Saddam Hussein is alive ? if the US wants him dead then he would be but they cannot as the power vaccum and implications of killing him would be huge.
Lets recap the likely and possible consequences of an invasion of Afganistan.
1. the muslim world declares a Jihad on the US and her allies
2. Saudi Arabis kicks all US troops out of the country
3. Ditto Jordan.
4. Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Libya form a coalition of forces and move in support of the US
5. Pakistan sends troops over their border
7. The chinese make VERY VERY clear that the usage of any non conventional weapons will be unacceptable (and they will)
Suddenly the US are at war with the entire muslim world whilst they are cut off from oil supplies and the already weakened economoy collapses.
You sir habe not even though beyond the kille em all basis
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
I've been learning to fly general-aviation aircraft (Cessna 172R/S "Skyhawk") and recently ended up sitting next to a female United pilot who was deadheading on a flight into JFK. We got to talking and she tried quite earnestly to convince me that flying a 757 (what she does) is pretty much just like flying a Skyhawk. I was skeptical but it made for a fun conversation :-)
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
> PLEASE contact your Congressional representatives and tell them you support full scale nuclear war against Sudan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I sure hope you're trolling.
Pakistan has nukes itself. Even though I can believe you would be prepared to see the deaths of 1,000,000s of Pakistani's in order to get revenge for the attack, I find it hard to believe that you would be prepared to see 1,000,000s of Americans die to achieve this.
Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe you really are that "patriotic".
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Either plainclothes or uniformed. I believe they did this for a while during the "skyjacking" crisis of the early 1970s, before airport security was established.
sulli
RTFJ.
Straight on. After I calmed down, I realized that not only is blaming all Arabs for this racist, but the terrorists committed an inherently racist act. I can only assume that their attitude is/was "All Americans are evil devils, and deserve to die." This is a generalization, and a racist one to boot.
I, for one, have become more and more disapproving of Isreal's behavior over the past few months. If they and the Palestinians have gotten us into a war because of their personal squabbles, I'd plainly support turning the area into a DMZ. Obviously the Palestinians and the Israelis can't keep off each other's backs by themselves... If this horror is a result of that, I guess somebody's gonna have to do it for them.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
The *entire* NATO doctrine (well, apparently Article 5) is that an attack on one is an attack on all.
A NATO member has been *viciously* attacked.
During many crises, America has been there for it's allies.
We're there for you now. Whatever you need, you can have it.
Why do we need a *meeting* to discuss what we have always promised?
You have never let us down. We won't let you down. Ever.
(signed)
A UK Citizen, who grieves with you.
Make no mistake about the politics of the Middle East - if they weren't fighting Israel they would be fighting each other. The theocracies (Afghanistan) despise the monarchies. The autocracies (Iraq) despise the theocracies. None of these states has any respect for individual rights. Afghanistan recently forbid education for women.
Sure this sounds like race baiting, but it isn't. Arabs can live peacefully and respectfully, but it isn't going to happen while Islam is part of the ruling regime's rulebook.
At some point in the future the West is simply going to have to come to grips with a fact that many foreign policy thinkers have known for decades - democracies and Islamic regimes cannot coexist.
That's a good point. When we say "War on Terrorism", we'd better mean all terrorism, whether it be by Arabs, Irish, Indonesians, Central American Drug Lords... Even those in America responsible for enabling these people to continue to operate.
To do any less would show us to be the hypocrites that those who dislike us seem to believe.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
The funny thing about nntp is that it doesn't get slashdotted. Too bad it's so old fashioned and out-of-date, huh? More about ClariNet itself: www.clarinet.com.
I was particularly interested in the story The four main radical islamic groups, which begins
movements -- two Palestinian, one pro-Iranian Lebanese group and a fourth created by the sought-after Saudi-born alleged terrorist Osama bin Laden.Yes, Iran is currently pro-US. Once upon a time, so was Iraq. And so was Afghanistan, apparently. Is there a better way to deal with them than switching sides every decade or so?
Oh, by the way, the US also bankrolled the Muhajudin rebels that became the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Don't kill them. Make them kill each other.
I know it takes considerable efforts and wits, it is not impossible to stir up an internal conflicts within the terrorists or their countries.
Let their people know their god Allah does not approve such acts. Make them overthrow their own governments.
My employer is ERA Champion Realty, Inc., a Real Estate company based in Orange County, California with about three dozen employees.
Our manager has committed to donating $500 for each home sale made during the next 60 days. Counting the sales we already have scheduled to close this month, we are close to the $5000 mark.
Just wanted to let you all know that some of the smaller companies are pitching in too!
bepaid.com was located in the north tower i believe. their web site no longer responds.
To reiterate:
Donate money
- Josh
NO, there is ample precident!!! The alternative is to suffer through the development of TOMBSTONE TECHNOLOGY.
It's been clear for some time now that it would only be a matter of time before an air-rage incident with an unarmed intruder resulted in 4-500 people dying as an airliner went straight into the ground. And yet no government agency even considered forcing airlines to "reduce profits" by adding a 1000 lb titanium/aluminum door to seperate the pilots from the passenters, even though the idea of a 'stronger door' is the first thing that strikes EVERYONE.
It's a known fact, by those in the know, that most of what "humanity" and "society" does is Tombstone Technology. Everything that has happened could have been prevented if decisions were made on the side of safety instead of economics. If people didn't simply refuse to deal with complexities by glossing over them with black and white pictures. The phrase "tombstone technology" does not describe "what must be", but describes what goes on now because of the "stupid short-sighted decisions human beings currently make." The way in which organizations, businesses, governments, and masses of human beings makes decisions MUST CHANGE.
If the FAA isn't relieved of it's air-safety responsibilities, I will be sickened. It's been known for 10-15 years now that the NTSB should be in charge. The conflict of interest of the FAA in promoting air travel and the profits of the airlines has already killed so many due to not implementing NTSB recommendations.
If all they do is "beef up" boarding security, I will be sickened. We've known for 10-15 years that current security precautions are totally inadequate. I have never EVER heard of a "test" of the boarding security precautions which didn't report a 40-60% success rate at getting serious weapons aboard.
Airplanes have been siezed before by people bluffing that they have bombs. Knives do not need to be made out of metal. And yet we've got some idiot on TV spouting off how it's so impossible to prevent someone from hijacking an airplane and doing this, seeing as they don't actually need a weapon. If there was a bulkhead and they had no weapon, all they could do is bluff and negotiate when back on the ground.
No, you can't stop someone from blowing up an airplane in-flight. But you can stop someone from crashing a fully loaded super-liner (like the new ones on the drawing boards from Boeing and Airbus) from being crashed into the Superdome and suffocating 100,000 people, or bringing down the Sears tower.
You're simply refusing to work through the complexities of the real world. That's what got us into this fucking mess!!! We can handle complexities of this nature, if those capable of making analytic decisions are given the chance, and not mucked with by those who can't think past their nose.
BTW: With respect to depressurization: the pilots simply need to do a crash dive down to 5000 feet and slow to 150-200mph, at which point there will not be a pressurization difference and aerodynamic stresses will be minimized. Then a few bullet holes will be just fine.
1. There's nothing like a stupid Javascript programmer to make the most casual Html FORM a nightmare...
2. There's nothing like a stupid American programmer to make the most casual ZIP, State or Phone INPUT field a nightmare... Would you, American Javascripters out there, believe that some country actually use letters in their ZIP or have more/less than 10-digit phone numbers? Grrbl!
A lot of it has to do with what happens to your data after it gets submitted. Most sites will want to look up your ZIP+4 code for american addresses, and then print barcodes directly on the envelope, which allows for much lower postal rates.
Granted, there should be another seperate international form, or seperate fields for international addresses, or a toggle for international addresses, but there are valid reasons for tight validation.
If you've ever had to deal with a database that had data entry with little validation, you know what kind of nightmare it can be to do anything useful with it.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Imagine this scenario, say we discover that it was Laden who was responsible. We demand that he and his closest men are turned over to us for execution, and imagine that Afghanistan complies.
Terrorist would then know that there is no where they can hide safely while they plan their acts of evil and depravity.
The message is simple, they have no respect for human life, they are no more than animals, worse because animals would never do this to themselves. I have no qaulms about detroying these people, to put the fear in them that our citizens are currently going through.
It doesn't matter that others will come along, the alternative is to let these people do whatever they want and that is simply wrong.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
You mean like the ones that rule every Middle Eastern Islamic regime? Name for me one, ONE moderate leader of an Islamic regime. Name for me one who allows women to dress and act in a way THEY want. Name for me one who does not support a violence in their justice system that makes Texas look like Norway. Name for me one who was elected in a fair and open process.
One of the reasons the CIA lost track of Osama Bin Laden was due to his switching from cell phones to PGP and the Internet for communications. Somehow i'm feeling a little guilty...
Please... please... don't think like this.
Let's think about Ben Franklin's prophesy,
if you give away freedom for security you
end up with neither.
We must turn our cheek and lead by example,
the bulk of the world are filled with decent
people and they will follow and shun those
who turn to barbaric acts. Responding with barbarism only breads contempt. We must act fairly and pull those from distress -- for it
is very much an act of desperation that we
have witnessed yesterday. Pity our enemy for
they have probably not had the opportunity to
see any other way.
On the home front we must fight a vigorous
intellectual challenge for our freedom. Only
today Sen Kennedy said in one sentance that
we will be returning to normalicy and then
a brief minute later said that we are at war,
and we must be willing to give up certain
liberties while we are at war (12:30 PM Today).
As we get more and more technologically advanced and the gap between the rich and the poor widens we must struggle to ballance captialism with our democracy; so that neither has the upper hand.
This is what we must struggle with; educating
our leaders so that they make the correct
choice for the people of the world -- the
choice of Jesus who turns his cheek and
teaches others to fish!
We are no longer a people of the U.S. we
are a people of the world and we must start
acting like such a people and stop looking
for borders which no longer exist.
Best,
Clark
You need to take your head out of your ass. Americans are no different than the people of any other country. When the time calls for it, most Americans are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
Did you see how many firemen died trying to save people? Did you see how many people ran back to the toppling buildings to do what they could to help?
After Pearl Harbor you know what many American men did, they joined up! They wanted to fight! They would rather fight and die than sit and do nothing! 200+ firemen are DEAD because they were trying to save others! Doctors in the area rushed in to help, some of which are missing.
Open your fucking eyes!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I want to make an analogy to help people try to get inside the heads of the terrorists who perpetrated yesterday's atrocities. It is inevitably an uncomfortable analogy, perhaps especially for the slashdot community.
Think of a typical all-American high school. Think of the football team. Think of the big powerful swaggering star quarterback.
Perhaps he is a good guy. But he is the hero, and he throws his weight a bit. Perhaps he's a nice guy and is an alterboy on Sundays, it doesn't matter.
Perhaps there are some lesser kids at the school. Not necessarily geeks. Maybe goths. Anyway in persuit of the all-American way the quaterback is somewhat down on such people. They resent him. The probably don't resent his athletic ability ("Who'd want to be a jock?"). They resent his attitude that he is God's chosen student. They resent being belittled. They resent being told that football is everything.
One of these put-upon kids puts a fire-cracker in the quaterback's locker and as it happens sets fire to his year book etc.
The Quaterback is hopping mad and goes around saying "when I catch that F***er, I'm going to rip him apart! If anyone knows who he is and isn't telling me I'll rip them apart too!"
Now destroying the WTC is not the same as a firecracker, but the analogy stands. Be aware, America, that much of the world does see you as an overbearing and self satisfied and opinionated, just like the quaterback in the story.
WTF does that have to do with anything? He tells his people we are denying them food, yet we are prepared to give them food, but, he doesn't let them have OUR food. That makes sense, how?
Maybe he should stop trying to build biological and nuclear weapons and should let his people eat.
I think you need to take your head out of your ass.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
And it is interesting to note that Israel pulled-out ALL of it's ambassadors mere minutes after the WTC was hit.
Something *** BIG *** is brewing, and it ain't smellin' good.
And how come the news don't show any pictures of people jumping from the WTC towers???
Air marshalls carried guns on aircraft for a long time. They came out with a special rounder to be used. It's commercially available now to people like me that live in apartments and don't want shots to go through walls should they have to defend themselves.
It's called MagSafe (as well as a few other brands). Basically the point of the round has a resin tip with small "BBs" in it. It fractures on impact and loses energy. It'll really hurt someone, but loses a LOT of it's energy when it hits drywall, and wouldn't go through the skin of a plane.
Please be careful about attributing these "good" things to capitalism. This is not strictly true. Only when you have *both* Capitalism and Democracy in ballence do these things occur. In the last 10 years our Capitalism has been taking too much credit for our Democracy, and Corporations are getting more power then the People. This is a problem. Capitalism is good, Capitalism taken to its extreme is Totalitarian and we must use Democracy wisely to keep it in check; to harness the firey beast if you will... please consider this.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/seismic.impact/
t c. html
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_w
You miss the point. If there's no way for the terrorists to get to the pilots, the pilots will retain control of the plane, thus removing the larger threat of the plane being used as a missile.
The plane might land with a cabin load of dead passengers, or it might simply be blown up by the terrorists, but it's still removes at one stroke the possibility of this tactic being used again. I think it's a great idea.
If you get stung by a bee, do you just let it sit there, no you slap the hell out of it. If you get stung by 10 bee's, you get to a safe place, and then come back and destroy all the bee's and the nests in the area.
Or, do you stay the fuck away from areas you don't belong in?
I am NOT saying the American people deserved this. I do believe that the United States government and the US Military organizations have been meddling with world affairs for far too long. They support dictatorships and arm one side (sometimes both!) whenever it will support their goals.
Isolationist my ass. The US has been doing this since WW2, if not longer.
Again, The American civilians did not deserve this and I do not, repeat do not condone this at all. Terrorism is never good.
...to make a very clear, very public, very obvious statement that any sort of international terrorism is unacceptable and will be responded to with complete and utter destruction of all terrorist groups in the world. Any individuals or governments aiding terrorists will be likewise targetted.
A bit extreme? Perhaps, and I'll be the first to admit that I think killing more people is a poor solution. But realize this, and before you jump all over the idea, how many innocent, non-violent people have to die at terrorists' hands before the world says enough is enough.
I'm not suggesting kill all Muslims or Irish or Corsicans. But any "international" terrorist groups must be eliminated. How could leaving one group while leaving the ones responsible (eg, WTC attack) benefit us? Why do we want groups of terrorists?
The US/Europe/Russia/China are the dominant powers of the world. We make the rules. We decide who is right and wrong. So don't be naive and think the terrorists are "right" and fighting the good war. If they were in charge, would they hesitate to kill us (since we'd be the terrorists)?
We need to coordinate with Russia and Europe and in one massive planned attack wipe out all known terrorist groups in the world. There will be reprisal attacks, but this is a small price to pay. Do we kill a few innocents now or millions later?
For non "international" terrorists, such as the US militia groups, I think these are strictly internal problems and should be dealt with internally. Notice US militia groups don't blow up Afghani planes, or Irish pubs.
I fear, though, that this decision will be made after another unprecendented attack (I think we can all agree the WTC saga is without precedence). Perhaps a chemical/biologial or nuclear payload will be what it takes for the world to take a "no tolerance" stance on international terrorism.
The WTC events have threatened the very foundations of the free world. Not because the "big boy" got successfully attacked, but because terrorism has stepped up to a new level of destructive power. It will continue until the world realizes that it is time for what in a normal situation we would consider an "extreme" reaction.
The world powers must send a cohesive ground force and attack the terrorism at its source.
It is possibly a bomb. I just heard this on MSNBC. People are being cleared from the Empire State building. More later.
Dude, I know we're not angels. We're just as human as you or anyone else in the world. If you feel I'm directly responsible for every evil that America has done, would you advocate that I slit my throat in protest? Do you want the videotape as proof?
Nobody deserves what happened yesterday. The people who can do such things are malignantly twisted individuals. At least I can say that I try, and feel remorse when I fuck up. Go look at my posting history for today. (Yes, I got a little excited when the shit hit the fan yesterday. Who didn't? I understand that I wasn't thinking clearly.) None of us here are cookie-cutter duplicates spouting the same party line. To hold the view that we are is to hold in your heart the very kind of blind, hating generalization that allowed the horror of 11 September, 2001 to happen in the first place.
And yes. If there are citizens of the United States of America who are directly responsible for terrorist acts or who directly fund such acts, they should be given no more consideration than anyone foreign to the U.S. The KKK comes to mind as a prime example. And I know it's "politically unreliable" to suggest it, but letting Kissenger face trial at the Hague would be the right thing to do, in my opinion. It would show that when America does the wrong thing, it can feel remorse, pick itself up, and try to right the wrongs.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
Gordon Sinclair died in 1984.
The Tri-Star and DC10 airplanes mentioned as pinnacles of US technology date from 1968.
This "recent" article is getting, ahem, a little tired.
Obviously, regardless how the current situation was created, recent events pass any test of requiring a military response, a response neither of revenge nor of deterrence but of necessary and total elimination. This is nothing to be happy or enthusiastic about. It's like chemotherapy. It hurts the patient but if it kills the cancer, it's worth it.
Spouting tired jingoism is neither helpful nor appropriate. Spouting jingoism that is *this* tired isn't particularly impressive either.
mt
The terrorists may claim, that these are the reasons for their deed, or maybe there's some other 'political cause' they wanted to enforce. I don't care, and nobody should. Terrorism is just no way to make politics. That would really mean inviting terror, for everyone with any political aim would then consider terror to get to his aim. This cannot be. If someone hits you he has to be punished for hitting you, not given a reward.
There has to be made a distinction between the terrorists and other people with maybe similar political aims. It has to be made crystal clear, that the only way to get to those aims is via diplomacy, and that terrorism only is a setback in the process. Also the forces/parties/organisations seeking this dialogue have to be supported, so they gain support in their own countries. In the same way the reactionist and extremist forces, terrorists and the people backing and supporting them, have to be weakened, but the best way to do this would be, to make their own people see them for the inhumans and even traitors to their own countries they are.
The terrorist organisations need the hate between countries to find followers, one way to reduce their support is reducing that hate. Still it must be made clear, that the terrorists and their financial backers must first be found out and punished, before peace talks can go on. It must be also clear, that these are actions against the terrorists, not against countries or peoples. The Governments of the Countries where the terrorists are suspected are well advised to distance themselves from the terrorists, and even help the USA with their investigations.
If the Arab countries are aware, that now the opinion is swinging against them, then it should be also clear, that the terrorists are not working for, but against them, and that they're their enemies as well as the USAs. This may be hard on that nations, and against the emotions and education of their own people. But then it's time to change that education, and remember, that a government has to make rational decisions, and not be guided by some irrational extremist minority playing on their peoples emotions. If the US-decisions where guided by the gut-feelings of some american people, the middle east would be a nuclear wasteland by now. And the Arab people in fear of irrational revenge should try to see the other side, and think what they and their leaders would/should have done, were the situation reversed. Maybe then they come to the insight, that the terrorists are their enemies as well.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
I've been thinking about how you would even go about trying to win a war in the middle east. It is quite a tricky problem.
Unlike either Germany or Japan, terrorist groups are not organized into strict hierarchy. Even if the leaders were convinced surrender, there isn't any reason why the individual self organized cells should do so.
Nor is the social system a structure founded on laws; rather it is a system founded on morals, with the moral teachings subject to many interpretations by the church leaders. So unseating the government and showing the people that the government was corrupt is also not possible.
The only way I can see of winning such a war is by doing something the US at least would consider very distasteful; that is we would have to displace not the government, but the religion. Topple the religious system, and show that the system of morals is corrupt. But the US' seperation of church and state will make us incapable of that sort of attack, while anything less will be unsuccessful.
I think the reason that Germany and Japan were both successfully changed was because they maintained the local form of government without its belligerence. Aside from a religious crusade we would be loathe to conduct, I can't see how the same result could happen here.
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
The same rubbish was posted elsewhere, to wich I answered this.
Actually, if we are going to thank anyone for our freedom and ideals, it should be the country that gave them to us, England.
The country you separated from. The country you once fled. We are infact the country you once fought (with good reason at times). We were once England. We shall continue as the free dominion called Canada. We will not be Americans. We don't want to be and we have repeatedly explained that to you.
Please don't think this means we all despise you.
We thank America for their kindness and generosity in their defense of our country, even though we understand it comes with the requirement we remain attached to your country. We thank America for all the time it selflessly helped us through natural disasters like our ice storm. We thank America for dealing so well with a country that has so many people from so many cultures that there are the minority who may dislike your country. We thank America for their freedom of trade with our country, and for the kindness of your citizens when we visit you.
Even after the wars, albeit so very long ago, we like you. We'd rather be good neighbours with you than any other country. And that's as far as we both want to take it, and as far as we should if we want to keep our cultures and ideals separate.
Just please appreciate one thing: Don't tell us you gave us freedom. You must know you didn't. England did when they formed this nation, and they did it again when they set us free from their country. That's why we celebrate Dominion Day (its real name until our release from Britain in 1982) on July 1st, and Victoria Day on May 24. It's an honour to the country that truly gave us our Freedom.
Millions of Canadians feel sorry for your tragic loss, and we are willing to do what it takes to help you bring the most peaceful and lasting resolution to your tragedy.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
...I might question America's respect for human life.
I remember seeing IR footage of an Apache attack on a radar station. The mission should have been complete, the Iraqis were running for their lives from the burning buildings. It was pitch black. Against the US apache pilots using IR vision and 30 mm automatic cannons they stood no chance. They wouldn't have even known what direction the attack was coming from.
You're a 17 year old conscript. You're in a trench, you want to surrender. Instead the Americans drive an armoured bulldozer along the line of the trench burying you all alive.
The war is lost and the Iraqi army is in disarray, you've lost your weapon and are escaping on the back of a packed cattle truck. American A10 tank busters drop napalm on the truck. Everyone is burned alive.
The United States suffered 148 killed in action, an estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died (killed by the armies of elected governments, not terrorists).
Instead of talking of making no distinction between terrorists and those who harbour them, GWB should ask why people are willing to harbour them, and whether America could do anything about it.
I respectfully disagree. I am respectful because I think that the basic problem is understood by you. No quantity of military response can crush a well-organized and motivated group of terrorists willing to sacrifice their lives in attacks.
There are some things that can be done (and may be done to some small extent). Middle Eastern nations need to be given an actual helping hand which will help bring about real economic and social independence from the Western powers. This is important because it targets the motivational aspects of terrorism.
The limiting factors of terrorism are motivation and finances. Looking at the root causes may enable us to win the war without military involvement (sort of like the cold war).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
The major television networks suspended competition, agreeing to share all footage gathered during the terrorist attacks and their aftermath, on suggestion of "60 Minutes" creator Don Hewitt.
Well done.
No proof of aghanistani imnovlvement at all
No proof it even was Bin Laden
No proof of any muslim complicity
You seem to be in denial. Wake up.
We are war in a global war against radical militant islamic terrorism. Frankly these people have been at war with us for a long time, but now we are joining the fight.
I expect moderate islamic forces like the Saudi's and Jordanians to support us. In Saddam Hussein's twisted mind there is one muslim people, but the real world just isn't so.
In order to be a terrorist and be able to justify the lives taken, I think one has to be willing to die-- this does not mean that they always sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks, just that they are willing to die for their cause. And killing bin Laden may turn him into a martyr-- is that what we really want?
But, that resolve only lasts as long as the terrorists truly believe in their cause. Target the root economic reasons for terrorism, and then when you target the terrorists themselves, the causalties really begin to take their toll. No more people start taking up the cause. And financiers start dropping off... Money and resolve are the limiting factors of terrorism and these are induced by economic factors.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I read an article earlier this evening on TechTV indicating that the New York Red Cross is in serious need of an enormous list of hardware, peripherals, consumables, and software to help facilitate their field operations, many of which are being carried out by paper. They also need Microsoft and Citrix certified volunteers. The list ranges from entire systems to network hubs, Cat5 cable, scanners, handhelds, and even things like diskettes and tie wraps.
I wrote to the contact person to verify this, and I have just heard back from her; apparently the story is entirely true, as she has asked me to phone her in the morning.
If you are looking for a way to help that is relevant to what you do and who you are, this certainly looks likely.Anne
Here are the texts of my message to Ms. Webman and her answer to me:
-----Original Message----- From: Anne Madison [mailto: ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:18 PM
To: dwebman@webmanassociates.com
Subject: Story on TechTV
Sorry to break in on you like this.
I am reading an article from TechTV that indicates you're in need of hardware and equipment. A detailed list is provided in the article. The URL is: http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/ 0,23008,3347294,00.html
If you're still in need of these things, a group of us here in Baltimore would like to help. We are wondering if the list is still current, and while we don't have a wealth to expend, we would like to try our utmost to cross at least one item off your list. If you could ask someone to let us know that the story is correct, and where and how to send the items, we would be grateful for the opportunity to assist in some small way.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. God bless!
Anne K. L. Madison
Ann,
The story is true. We will have a better sense of what has been donated by tomorrow morning. Would you be kind enough to call me in the morning and I will see what is left on the list.
Thank you!!!
Dorothy
Dorothy Webman, D.S.W.
President/CEO
Webman Associates
dwebman@webmanassociates.com
4 Brattle Street, Suite 207
Cambridge, MA 02138
(617) 864-6769 [Telephone]
(617) 492-3673 [Facsimile]
New York Office:
1650 Broadway, Suite 701
New York, NY 10019
(212) 459-0944 [Telephone]
(212) 586-4306 [Facsimile]
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
MSNBC said that One Liberty Plaza where Nasdaq is located has a crack in it. They mentioned some other building too.
Yes, lots of them. Starting with the huge number of false positives generated by existing systems and the hell that the victims go through (and sometimes the legal minefield that the FRS operators tread). Moving on to the possibility of wearing masks to falsely incriminate people and/or disguise terrorists, technology which the terrorists have and most other people do not.
The answer is not in more security. One answer would be to stop meddling in other people's politics. Another would be to think about the fact that Israeli airliners basically don't get hijacked because the hijacker would be dead before they finished their first threat.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
This article claims that there is very large (> 1 billion USD) amounts of gold stored in a vault under the WTC towers.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
how many Afghanis would have to die in order for us to feel better?
All of the ones that support terrorism.
What we need is for Bush to countermand the executive order banning assassinations. This attack was precipitated by one person leading a small organization. Military strikes will cause civilian casualties which make us no better than the terrorists. Assassination isn't brutal in this situation, it's justified.
We might not even have to do it ourselves, if we offer a big enough reward for the heads of those responsible. Would $10 million do? How about $100 million? No matter how dedicated and fanatic your gurads and followers are, for enough money some one will pull it off. $100 million is peanuts compared to the cost of a large military response.
I think the best way for the American people to feel avenged though would be the capture of those responsible followed by a trial, and if found guilty a televised public execution. They talked about it doing that for McVeigh..
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Good evening, passengers, this is your captain speaking, we are about to touch down at... ooh, why has the windscreen suddenly gone blue?
Cracker paradise. You too can run Jumbos and WBJ's around major airports armed only with a cracking toolkit and a pointing device?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Some incredible footage can be found in the video section of www.consumptionjunction.com . They also harbor all sorts of objectionable material, so click carefully.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
I personally know a very pretty 55kg (110lb) flight attendant who could stuff your feet into your ears before you could blink.
``It's not the size of the [subject] in the fight, but the size of the fight in the [subject] that counts.''
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Cripes man, bin Laden is a Saudi and he is financed by Saudi oil money. You think he won that billion dollars in the lottery? Some of it is private holdings from his former businesses, but most of it comes from *donations*. Donations from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, and China.
I agree though. Israel doesn't deserve the aid they get from us.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
the LAST INSTANCE OF "TERRORISM" ON A US FLIGHT WAS IN 1989
Maybe so, but we've had an average of one every three years since then.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
This profile on Bin Laden explains that his father's contruction company is the source of his wealth. There is also an explanation of al Qaeda, his terrorist organization.
You missed the references to Russia and China? Shall we dwell on stuff like the Harrier jets from Britain? Or some of the incredible space stuff that Japan have been up to, on a shoestring budget? To quote Son of Naked Vicar on ballet dancers, ``Our poofs'll beat your poofs any day!'' The point is not that Oz is great (hey, I like it), but that everybody has their strong points, their own individual greatnesses. To hear many (far from all) citizens of the USA speak, you'd think that everything worthwhile happened in North America, except for some of the really cold bits.
You've got that ass-backwards, as the previous respondent pointed out. The real reason is that the politicians we haven't jailed are too lily-livered to do much of anything. Indonesia sneezes, they whimper and grovel.
Unfortunately for this argument, the interests are almost always corporate, and it often comes out in the wash (alas, too late) that the interests were more or less deliberately put at stake, or the official reasons are covering a lot of dirty dealings of one form or another.
This gives the majority of Americans a very bad name in other countries. Which is a shame, because many, many Americans are helpful, humble, honest people.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Subject: view from a new yorker...
the numbness is setting in... im looking at my family right now, each with
that depressed face one gets on the 2nd day of a funeral....
there is a depression hitting this city like you wouldnt believe.. everyone is
just.. blah at this point.. its beyond even the point of saying "i cant
believe it" its just a numbness... a blackness.
there were slight racial incidents... my neighborhood is very near to an arab :( - well as the
neighborhood, coincidentally only a few blocks from the mosque (sp?) where the
original 1993 bombing was planned... anyways, there have been sirens and lots
of police activity over there.. so far i have heard of a car being set on fire
and a muslim beaten, but not killed... i think when the shcok wears off
tomorrow, and people become increasingly angry at the growing number of death
reports.. or when the stupid media starts showing bodies or body parts - the
same as they keep sensationalizing the clips of people jumping out... as if
thats something we need to see 17 times in one news report
anger increases tomorrow, i fear common sense will not control people's actions
tomorrow... hopefully people can keep their senses, and not turn into an
LA-riots style race war.
There are still particles floating in the air, and i am 4 miles away, across
the river. there is a 1/4 inch thick layer of dust from the collapsed
buildings.. there is also a burning tire smell in the air.. just hanging
there..i find myself wishing for a breeze.
stories of the few recovered survivors are filtering through, and there are
"mental health crisis hotline" flyers posted all over NY...
i personally dont even want to go to sleep.. im haunted by images, and today
has been just a series of moments.. i have no sense of a continual and
coherent passage of time today... just a series of isolated moments and
emotions... this is the strangest feeling i have had. i decided to write this
letter after i realized i had been sitting at my keyboard just staring at the
computer screen for 10 minutes.. not doing anything.. i sort of zoned out.
its gotten to the point where we have recieved so many phone calls from crying
relatives and friends that i dont even want to pick up the phone anymore.
no one is crying anymore... their eyes are sunken in and swollen to show they
had been crying the whole day.. but not now... its a mental, emotional, and
physical weariness.
everything south of 34th street in manhattan is closed tomorrw. the rest of
manhattan is going to be "business as usual."
my fraternity brothers who own a hosue right nea the brooklyn bridge are
telling me about the HUGE amount of commercial truck traffic into the city
across the bridge. construction support and 18 wheelers full of rescue and
recovery materials are working their way down... its sort of like that scene
from "godzilla the movie" where the u.s army takes over nyc.
stored i shopped in regularly are gone totally..
people who are trapped in the rubble are calling the authorities from their
cell phones!!! As the fire was still burning and fear of a gas explosion or
further collapse was present - rescue workers have not gotten to the "ground
zero" of the towers... however the surrounding rubble is being searched.
a few of the people who were calling earlier from their cell phones are feared
dead nwo from smoke inhalation.
the national guard is a strong presence in nyc right now - and the scene of
standard issue cammo gear and soldierly movements in and about the city is such
a surreal and unfamiliar site...
most major subway train lines are not able to get into manhattan from brooklyn
tomorrow... the trade center was above one of the largest hubs in the NY subway
system... all the major lines from brooklyn met there, and then proceeded to
ther respective courses uptown or crosstown... this major station of course
collapsed once the building collapsed...
my brothers car was rear-ended by a police vehicle that started sliding out of
control on the layer of ashes (as thick as 2 inches deep around 34th street
(more than a mile away from the immediate crisis)
and right now i feel myself getting struck with that numbness i spoke about.. i
think i'll go and try to get some sleep right now... but just thought i would
update you on the local condition here in nyc... from a ny'er
-Steve 98 TJ
My heartfelt sympathies go out to all those who are directly affected by this tragedy.
How about creating an air-born police force under the control of the FAA, armed with fighter-type aircraft capable of operating well on jetliner-type speeds as well as a bit faster. These planes would not carry missiles but would carry guns designed to cause minor damage to a rogue aircraft.
In the event where an airline veers too far off its course, these interceptors would escort the plane down to land at the nearest airport.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I think you are a bit naive. When a nation experiences a huge disaster, heads of other nations are expected to voice their condolences. This is strictly pro forma and has nothing to with the real agendas of those other nations.
It would be great if you could watch the "Yes, Prime Minister" episode dealing with the predecessor's funeral.
PM: I shall take my place among the world's leaders.
Sir Humphrey: Bearing your grief with dignity and fortitude.
(from memory). Condolences are free. Anyway, "the world" which may hate the US is the third world, not so much Britain and Canada.
Notice that none of the countries cited as beneficiaries of US help (Germany, Japan, Italy, Britain, France, India) are sending suicidal terrorists against us.
I know probably no one will read this, but I felt like I should write it nonetheless. First, my condolences to all those who know people who were lost in the disasters Tuesday. I'm fairly sure no one that I know was near those areas, but still I can never remember being so shocked and sickened. The thing that bothers me most today, though, are reports of ignorant Americans who are terrorizing innocent Islamic citizens in America. The local news here in Louisville carried a story of a local Islamic woman who was told by the owner of a store that he was going to get a gun and if she didn't leave by the time he returned he would shoot her. The woman, of course, was completely innocent; in fact her sister was a victim of the attack on the World Trade Center. This sort of ignorant hatred disgusts me. In its own way, although on a smaller scale, this is just as evil and reprehensible as the terrorists attacks themselves. No form of bigotry should be tolerated. Let us judge the terrorists by their actions, not by their religious beliefs. And remember that even flag-waving, apparently patriotic citizens of the U.S. are just as much enemies of our country if they turn on their fellow citizens.
Matt Reece
This showed up in my mailbox the morning of the disaster...
Eerie cooincidence? Evidence of Marchon Eyewear's terrorist connections? Psychic advertisers?
Don't get mad at Marchon's apparent bad taste. This ad was obviously planned, printed, and mailed before the tragedy at the World Trade Center.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
I stumbled across a site that has tons of detailed reports, research, and studies about Terrorism and Counterterrorism. Many may have see nthis already but a quick search turned up no hits within ./ so here it is. The Oklahoma City National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism "is dedicated to preventing and reducing terrorism and mitigating its effects."
It has many links tons of Articles related to terrorism from various sources, Fact Sheets from Governments, Journals, Terrorism-related journals and magazines published by the United States, State Department and various Institutes. Information describing the lessons learned from past incidents. Reports on Counterterrorism and related reports from governmental and non-governmental sources. And an image gallery. This is definitely worth checking out.
Many are in HTML but most are in PDF foramt.
A few that I found interesting include On Terrorism's Trail: How the FBI Unraveled the Africa Embassy Bombings and "Combating Terrorism: In Search of a National Strategy" .
The URL again is http://www.mipt.org
is that you get to see when the information changed. You watch the flow of news change and clarify, and the same again with opinions.
in addition, I was happy to see many apologise for things they said when under emotional stress. Please don't let these posts be modded down, not everyone admits their mistakes, and it helps to cut down the flames
well done
The Turks eventually converted to Islam but they are not Arabs (Nor are the Kurds or the Iranians, for that matter).
In the 8th century, while Europe was in the very "barbaric" dark ages, Bagdad was one of the greatest cities in the world, with universities, and great centers of Europe. When Rome fell, Bagdad became the main center of Neo-Platonic philosophy. This golden age lasted longer than the European Rennaisance, to which it is comparable. One only has to read Heinrich Agrippa (a 16th century Neo-Platonist) to understand the Arabic influence in the European Rennaisance.
We are not Arab or need a highly structured, misogynistic culture to support.
That country, Turkey, you hate so much has had a woman in charge of it within the last ten years. Can you say the same of the US? And Qaddafi's bodyguards are women! In fact, if you read the Quer'an you will find that it emphasizes that women should be educated. This is so important to Islam that when Saddam Hussein wanted to restrict women's access to universities, the public outrage was so great that even as a dictator(!) he had to back down.
I am not a Muslim. However, I really hate it when uninformed people make wild accusations which are founded on misunderstanding and the more cheuvanistic actions of minority sects.
(I am actually more of a Neo-Platonist-- which owes much of its heritage to this Arabic golden age.)
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I'm really getting sick of the media and the way they handle this and all major news events. A couple specific things that piss me off:
1. The Melodrama. This is already one of the biggest events of recent times. There is no need to play this up at all, it's already a huge deal. Yet every single news person feels the need to pile on the melodrama.
2. The Carnage Whoring. Who hasn't seen the film of the towers getting hit and later collapsing 500 times already? And from 50 different angles. And people falling from the building. Yet they continue to show it over and over and over and over again.
3. The over-coverage. The day it happened almost every fucking station was showing some kind of feed. Including MTV, VH1, and ESPN. And everyone except the major news people (ABC, CBS, CNN, etc.) were using feeds from other channels. CNN, HN, TBS, and TNT, for example, were all showing the exact same CNN feed. What's the point in that?! In today's newspaper, every singe section (including Style, Sports and even the kid's section) all had pictures of the WTC on the cover. People need something else to thing about, if only for a little while.
On a side note, something else that pissed me off in the Congressional resolution condemning the attack. Anothing fucking useless measure. If my house is burglarized, why should I gather my family members together to condemn the robbery?! The US was attacked, so of course everyone in the US is going to be against the attack! What's next? Passing a law to ban suicide bombing?
Are you trying to tell me that there aren't American soldiers who would do this if asked? Or that any arab would? Or to take it one step further, that an American soldier hasn't been told that there is no chance of survial but took on a mission anyway? Besides, which is more disconcerting, knowing, or not knowing your outcome?
Let me go back and quote from my original post: "Making these terrorists out to be somehow braver than Americans is simply false."
Because these leaders are more willing to kill their own does not make them or their soldiers braver, does not make them unbeatable, and does not mean that we can't intimidate them. We are not dealing with people who are unshakable. I'm guessing that half of Afghanistan is terrified as the FBI follows a trail that appears to be leading back to Bin Laden. I know that the Palistinian leaders were terrified when it was initially said that they were claiming responsibility. No one wants to be on the recieving end of what's going to happen soon, it's not going to fair well for them, I think we all can agree on that.
I think I read somewhere that the country the OKC bombers came from did alright for itself. That didn't seem to stop them.
Terrorists are crazy, no matter what excuse they use, they are simply bloodlusted insane fanatics with no respect for life or grasp on reality. Terrorism is an illness.
Know someone who is stealing cable? Report them!
I found this story pretty moving. A gossip columnist comments on how meaningless all the stuff she's built her career on is in the grand scheme of things. Talks about the future of celebrity and entertainment.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
Note long before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount the peace talks were tense but there was actually agreement on most points. Today both sides often express doubt about the other side's intentions at the time, but I believe they may have been genuine enough.
But the fact that there was agreement on most points only brought the remaining points of disagreement into sharper contrast. Central among them was Jerusalem.
Both leaders knew they would not have support from their people for anything that might be interpreted as concessions on Jerusalem. They also knew they have much more to lose than just politically - based on past experience they could literally lose their lives at the hands of the extremists of their own people.
So Yasser Arafat did the only logical thing, followed the only course of action that would not only keep him alive but also reap some political gain - blow up the talks and make it appear to be the Israeli's fault.
Sharon's visit provided a convenient spark, but it would have happened anyway.
Arafat had ordered the uprising. Palestinian television started broadcasting nationalistic songs and show old footage from the Intifada as it is of current events, well *before* the eruption. Activists of the PLO helped stir up the population and Presto! - you have a "spontaenous" response of outrage to the visit.
What was Ehud Barak thinking at the time? I don't know. I believe he saw it coming but tried to keep to the original course of action anyway. What else could he have done? What do you do when your mind tells you that it will not work, not thi time, but your heart tells you that you must have hope, that the chance for peace is worth taking this enormous risk to your country and to your people?
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
You can assume that no one knew they were going to die. How many hijackings end in the death of everyone? Very few. They have already released statments saying that conversations aboard one of the planes that were transmitted through one of the pilot's mike went along the lines of "Dont do anything foolish and you wont get hurt." However, the Pittsburgh plane terrorists told the passengers they were going to die. The plane crashed in the middle of nowhere and we can safely assume this was a last ditch effort by the terrorists to kill anyone as the passengers took over the plane. The point i'm making is, if the passengers on those other planes knew what was going to happen...they would have ripped the terrorists apart with their teeth. We have entered a world where when your plane gets hijacked, assume you are already dead. ~Steve www.foggymyst.com
The US is (one of) the center(s) of the Christian world. Not only is a large percentage of our population Christian of one form or another, but our society and culture are very, very Christian based. Also the US culture is highly visible throught the world. Well, this makes us a prime target for those that don't like Christianity.
Sad but true. I've talked to vets of many wars, and often the story is that the Oz (or Brit, Rhodesian, name it) infantry would take a hill, give it to the Yanks, and then have to take it back again the next day. It often got so routine that both Oz and enemy soldiers would leave their gear on the contested hill - and share stuff - because they knew they'd be back for it next day.
I've also heard - from the horses' mouths - of times when Oz (or insert-name) troops and enemy would be involved in a firefight, a Yank group would approach, and both sets of combatants would go to ground until the group was well clear because the Yanks were just too damn dangerous to be near, bombing and strafing everything in sight if they got nervous.
OTOH, if you wanted something absolutely carbonized, you called in a Yank firestrike and stood well, well back.
The upshot is: in a real war, I predict that the USA would pound the pooh out of China from a long distance and then lose most of their troops in the cleanup. The obvious tactical approach would be to not have a cleanup. )-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
What they need is something like the Glaser Safety Slug [goldpaint.net]. Bullet does fairly well against humans but won't go through much else. For aircraft, you'd probably use the normal pressure version (the one for sale here is high pressure) which penetrates even less.
I'm not being but so naive. The support the US has enjoyed from most countries has been more than "we are sorry that happened to you". Canada has been a great help in terms of providing our stranded citizens with food and shelter, our injured with blood. All the NATO nations are ready to stand as one for us.
True that Middle East leaders may be less than sincere, but I was honestly touched that Arafat gave blood to the cause. The bottom line though, is that we have had peace treaty meeting after peace treaty meeting and Israel seems much more willing to negotiate than the Palestinians. I suggest the third world countries look at their own governments before blaming ours for the problems. I'm not saying we are perfect, but we ARE trying to help both sides.
I'd go further than you. Aside from the Vatican, there is no country more visibly identified with Christianity as the United States.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
The obliteration of the World Trade Center, as well as the strike against the Pentagon, and the utterly needless deaths of those innocents in the planes turned missiles is something that I have been struggling to comprehend.
I have learned a great deal. We, the people of the United States of America, are responsible for a swath of violence and hate across the world, mostly in the wake of well-meaning but short-sighted policies designed to protect us from an array of threats from Communism to economic blackmail. Our leaders have made choices that have earned us deserved enmity. That is not to say that we are an unalloyed scourge upon the world. We have acted to protect our interests, as any sane country must, as well as what we saw as the greater interests of the free world. Given our status as superpower, our interests cover the entire globe and every conflict. Inevitably, those we oppose become our foes.
This in no way lessens the horror and sheer audacity of the terror perpetrated upon us. Issues of morality and justification aside, one who baits the tiger cannot expect anything but bestial fury in return. Factor into the equation the immoral slaughter of thousands of innocents without warning as the end result of a cold-blooded and calculated plan of terror, and the unsheathing of the naked blade of war is all but inevitable.
We have been engaged, around the world, in a number of battles and military actions since World War II. This attack upon our home presages the possible advent of the first real declared war, with no power or resource of the United States held in abeyance for concern of mercy. Those who perpetrated this attack cannot but have anticipated this response. I feel, surely, that they cannot have but have desired it.
Commit continual acts of blood and terror upon a country, and that country will stagger from the blows. Freedoms will be lost to expediency and need. Lines of social stress will flare as tensions rise. Inevitably, if no outlet for the strain can be found, the long slow onslaught of terrorism will bring a nation down - or warp it into something unrecognisable.
I watched the videos of disaster, from a score of angles and perspectives. Too, I sampled scores - thousands - of news stories, commentaries, posts, essays, and interviews. I have covered CNN.com to slashdot.org to CBC broadcasts to transcripts of interviews with terrorists to chat rooms and more others than I can remember. I have spoken directly with Americans and Canadians. I have sampled the opinion and thoughts of the world. All of it, searching for meaning.
This act was not unthinkable. The carnage was not unimaginable. This was a human act, carried out by human planning, directed by human will. All of it, birthed from a human understanding of something most people shy away from.
I have done my best to understand.
At first, I wanted revenge. I had fury-driven fancies of tank battalions driving across Afganastan, should bin Laden be at fault. Then I read, from the posts of people familiar with the region, of it's poverty. I read the CIA World Factbook entry on Afganastan.
To be blunt, from what I know, there isn't much there to bomb or blast. The people have had war for over twenty years, are dirt poor, and under the isolationist control of a fundamentalist Muslim faction that does it's best to deny them the benefits, amusements, and information of the West. Television is banned, along with a host of other things. Not that it matters much - no electricity.
No TV, no radio. Nothing remotely resembling a free press. I'm not even sure they have an unfree press. These poor bastards don't have any but the dimmest notions of what has been done to us, it's magnitude, nor the magnitude of what we could raise against them. They have been betrayed as much as we.
So, having come to understand who it is that massive American action in that poor blighted corner of the globe would be smiting, I came to hope for surgical strikes, as massive in their own way. Of course, that won't sate the American bloodlust, nor will a barrage of cruise missiles give us the confirmation of the eradication of a cancerous organization.
I came to wrestle with the question of having the stomach to watch our military force carve a bloody swath through a people who don't deserve another invasion to remove a man who has been waging a war from the shadows with religion and money. I hoped I would have the moral resolve to stand firm and let war be waged.
This didn't feel right. I spent another 12 hours trying to realize something fairly simple. I continued my reading and watching, canvassing any resource I found. In the end, I understood.
In a perfect world, were we a perfect people, we would absorb this violation done us. We would return, in a spirit of a peace, the violence in the form of aid and construction without taking resources both material and cultural in exchange. We would spend the long and difficult years, paying the high price in our lives and money, to rebuild shattered nations who we helped, with shortsightedness and poor thinking, to break. We would find those peoples who lived in fear, in the very grip of terror themselves, and raise them up. We would let them rebuilt while we took on our shoulders the brunt of the slaughter, so that they could raise forth new and free nations in the image of their own people. We would make terrorism needless in a world of understanding.
We are not a perfect people, and we are not living in a perfect world. It is not a question of wether I have the resolve to let justice be done. It is a question of my having the resolve to take a better path, to bear calmly as sacrifice the burden of horror while rebuilding the world.
I believed that I was a man of peace.
Let blood and fire reign down. Let us burn them out, whomever did this, and salt the earth with their blood, so that no son in the next generation may raise sword against us. Let this thing be done.
The truth of terrorism is that it is an act which creates terrorists.
I understand.
I hope that I am more alone that I suspect. I hope that cooler, saner heads than mine will prevail. I hope.
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
I think the US tried a similar plan in Vietnam. It didn't work. There was no way to separate out a particular minority of the people who would be the sole source of enemy support. It was too big a task to try and take on an entire civilian population numbering many millions.
It is also possible that only the British were competent enough to accomplish such a feat. (That same factor might bode ill for the US if it tries to base its strategy on its own version of special forces. It might be better to let the British SAS lead a particularly critical mission such as a direct assault to apprehend Osama Bin Laden.)
There is also no way the rest of the world would stand for similar measures today. It would be the United States that would be accused of establishing concentration camps regardless of what conditions the people were given. The forceful removal of an entire minority population solely based on race to a controlled environment would create a wave of comparisons to prior shameful US events such as the Trail of Tears or the Japanese-American internment during World War II. In four years the rest of the world outside of a few allies would be calling for US leadership to be extradited to the Hague for trial, and internally the US would be at civil war.
A more meaningful comparison as far as a recent historic event would be the decision of Jordan's King Hussein in 1970 to crush the Palestinians, a war that was to become reviled by the Palestinians as "Black September".
Use a high-tech composite. The idea of having a door 6" thick or more might cause more problems than solutions and 1000 lbs near the nose might not be soemthing that you could retrofit into existing planes without some pretty serious sacrifices.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
He did. He just wanted the feds to kill him. That's the whole point.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Look,
what happened in NY is a real tragedy, but it's not a reason to start spreading BS.
Scuse me,
I read in this 'Canadian' letter there were only American airplanes ??? Do you know that Airbus is a European airplane manufacturer that beats Boeing ?
Great speech about Americans, just not very fact based.
Oh, and you know that the foundation of space technology ( both US & Russia)is made by EUROPEANS (German guys after WO II) right ?
Duh, another post that will be modded down, why do I bother ?
Duh, I wont even post anonymously.
My other sig is Funny.
China chooses not to invade Taiwan
Dont mistake a decision not to act with the inability to act - do a bit of research
World largest army
Worlds largest airforce
2nd largest navy
largest nuclear arsenal
all modern and highly trained
The US is not invincible
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
It is asking the important question "How much anger can prompt a group of people to do this?" An important question people seem to ignore in their anger.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
The saudis would require PROOF of aghani government involvement (as would the international courts) and that means GOVERNMENT documents linking the government to the plot
they wont find it and they wont support a full scale invasion of Afghanistan.
ALSO SHOW ME THE PROOF IT WAS ARABS - So far its speculation - and if arabs they could be egyptian, palestinian, libyan, yemeni, iranian, iraqi etc
Do we kill everyone in the world whos not an american ?
Tell me whats the weather like on your planet ?
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
It became fashionable to hijack planes and demand millions in seventies. A lot of Arab and other terroristic organizations were doing that.
After Israel freed Israeli hostages in 1976 (in the Air France plane) that Arab and German terrorists took to the heart of Africa, hijacking had pretty much stopped (Israeli commandos has also shot two hijackers of the Belgian Sabena plane).
Another example.
Arabs has murdered Israeli delegation at the 72 Olympics. ALL of the masterminds and planners as well as surviving participants were hunted down and exterminated. Do you think any terrorists are willing to repeat murdering Israelis?
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Your problem is that you judge the entire world by your views as many leftists do. You think that "free speech and free beer" can make anybody view the world and behave like you do.
Guess, what. One of the main causes for this attack was the arrogance of idiots like you who don't want to see that the world consists of different cultures, and many of them laugh at your values and don't care about them. You can give them tons of beer and free speech, but they will just consider you a weakling and murder you in a cold blood because it's the way they are raised and educated.
Hopefully, the Western world makes the right conclusion from this tragedy and finally understands that diversity is not just two Americans who have different skin color or religion, but cultures that are completely different in their view of life.
And they will understand that you can't expect of everybody to behave like you and repeat all your dogmas and mantras.
And they will properly evaluate the threat of terrorism and show that it will not achieve the terrorist's goals.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Here is an IKONOS satellite image of the disaster area. (from yahoo news)
The image was taken on 11:43am EDT September 12.
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
Check out thespaceimaging web site for more satellite images, including 'before' and 'after' pictures of the WTC and the pentagon.
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
Bin Laden runs a very strange operation. It seems that he and his people run a series of training and support organizations throughout the world. Indeed, what if the entire
plot was hatched and planned from within Canada or the US?
How is this a "strange" organisation? It dosn 't sound that different from the way in which the CIA operated in training Bin Laden in the first place...
One of the most foolish things you can do in a conflict is to under-rate your enemy.
When our soldiers are involved in a war and embark on a mission which they know is going to lead to their deaths, we call them heroes - whether they succeed or not. The people who engaged in this attack - whatever you may think of their motivation - were in the highest degree professional, disciplined, competent and courageous. They carried out a mission behind 'enemy' (their enemy) lines. Their security was not breached. Three out of four of their targets were hit, two were destroyed. And they died, as they knew they would.
That makes them an elite military unit. Yes, we don't like what they did. Yes, we don't agree with their motivations. But if you think of them as 'cowards', or any other belittling term, they will hit you again and again because you will not set up defences which are proof against elite professionals. Belittling your enemy breeds complancency, and complacency leads to defeat.
Respect these men. They are supremely disciplined, superbly organised, totally unafraid. If you do not respect them, you will not beat them.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&cid=2291 125
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
anyone who has ever watched the news about an emergency airline landing immediately following departure knows the planes always circle for hours buring fuel before
they land.
Planes also have the ability the dump fuel through the tail. In an emergency the last thigh you may want is to have to remain in the air for hours.
here is no special skill in sterring an airplane through the air. any pilot will tell you that the only real challenges are during the landing phase and/or an emergency (no
engine, no electrical, loss of flight control, etc.). as far as the transponder, it looks like a radio with a four digit display and a knob with four modes (off, standby, altitude,
and test). no special skill to operate it. they say these guys went to flight school in the US. all you need is money to get into flight school. for enough cash, you can even
buy time in a full blown sim.
A Sky News reporter demonstrated crashing MS Flight Sim into both WTC tower 2 and The Pentagon.
Civil aircraft come with manuals which would tell anyone who can read where the transponder controls are also IIRC the CVR on US aircraft is through microphones on instrament panels, again trivial to disable once you know where they are.
If their bodies will be recovered, they should be buried in a pig's skin that will automatically make them ineligible for Heaven. IIRC, Brits were using this method for discouraging potential Muslim terrorists.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
The New York Times
9/11 Neediest Fund
The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund is a one-month campaign established to collect contributions to relieve the suffering of families struck by death or injury in the World Trade Center calamity, both civilians and rescue workers.
The campaign is being managed by The New York Times Co. Neediest Cases Fund, which will, as with the annual Neediest Cases campaign, cover all administrative costs.
Contributions will be accepted through October 11 and then be allocated to the seven social service agencies which disburse funds in the annual Neediest Cases campaign, plus three foundations representing the uniform services. These are the Fire Safety Foundation, the Police Foundation, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Foundation, on behalf of Port Authority, Sanitation, and other agencies.
You can contribute online: http://prodpub.wavesys.com/cw/donations.asp?charit y=neediest911
Donations can also be sent to:
The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund
P.O. Box 5193
General Post Office
New York, NY 10087
You think Israel will risk its only ally that is equal to its existance for simplifying its fight with terrorism?
Big NO. They are not THAT stupid. Also, European leftists will continue its policy of "Don't touch innocent Palestinians".
If you want to look at other big winners:
1) Russia. It does pretty much get a cart blanche for continuing eradicating the Chechen terrorists. Also, chances for the Bush's ABM system are getting much slimmer.
2) France.
French are rolling shit at Israel because they hope to displace Americans as the supplier of arms to Saudis and other less extremist Arab regimes.
Try to think how they will welcome the US retaliating against Muslim terrorist and contries that support it.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Any shows you've got on your PVR -- if you can rip them, Divx encode them and run WinMX... get the files out there. People should search for them and download them. Keep them spread out.
The PVR idea is great. But widely distributing this historical record is just as important.
Didn't you know that after the creation of Israel not only about 600,000 Arabs ran away from what became the 1949 borders of Israel, but also about 600,000 Jews were necessary to leave everything behind and run from Arab countries to Israel?
Their property left was estimated at $30 BLN. So, this entire refugee problem was the result of Arab states not letting the Arab refugees out of the camps.
Unlike Arabs, Jewish refugees were able to live as a citizens of Israel with all rights according to this status.
BTW, Jews who decided not to leave Arab countries were persecuted and many of them were executed.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt. Israel just got a stack of Get Out Of Jail Free cards on these issues.
Now, I have read reports saying that the terrorists threatened pilots with knives. It seems a pretty unreliable means to curb pilots and attendants into submission.
Knives are sufficient to control people who assume that their best option is to co-operate and wait it out. That has been the case with the traditional "fly this plane to Point X and have $10,000,000 and a getaway car waiting there" hijackings.
Even if the passengers do decide to fight it out against knife-armed hijackers (much more likely now -- the default assumption has shifted to "you're going to die anyway unless somebody does something"), it can still be done if enough terrorists can get aboard.
The more workable solutions I've seen proposed are:
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
That is interesting.
To those who think the intelligence agencies are doing nothing: I would be suprised if the FBI poseted every fact they had about their investigation on the internet and told CNN correspondents everything they have found our or knew.
If ?Laden? did warn us in any way about the details of the attack, it would have been very easy to thwart this particular attack.
I imagine the FBI has quite a bit of information, and they are already acting on much of it. I'd love to know the details, but I don't need to know so I'm glad I don't.
Krispy Cream is people
Nope. Unless some surprising (i.e. pointing anywhere except straight at Osama bin Laden) evidence surfaces, then the Afghani regime either hands him over or they've got themselves a war. The stated policy of the US, which is clearly backed by the civilized world, is that no distinction will be made between the perpetrators and those who harbor them.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
You've misinterpreted my comments.
Also, our press's lack of attention to foreign affairs is not due to government control, but due to the sad state of education and the culture of isolationism that periodically raises its head. The sad state of education may be caused by the government, but through incompetence rather than conspiracy.
I don't beleive that. However, it's not a conspiracy either. I never said it was. It's part of our culture. The government doesn't control the press. If you're in the journalism business, you find out quickly that you will not be promoted and possibly dismissed if you openly question our economic institutions or government. It's in the best interests of those who run the media, who the culture originates with.
Please go to China or Russia to see what total and partial, respectively, control of the press and propaganda really looks like.
Oh you're basically right. I wouldn't want to live in these countries, I'm certainly glad I'm here. That doesn't mean we don't have propeganda. It's just more sophisticated. We have the freedom to say just about anything, but when you get 99% of the population to behave the same way (ie don't be politically active, just sit there and watch TV), the outcome isn't all that different. That 1% of the population isn't enough to make a difference, unless they get public sympathy, which rarely happens.
Please: slashdot "anarchists" and those who believe you're repressed and the subject of government plots--do some traveling to truly unfree places and see the difference. Just because the rest of us fail to jump to your cause may mean that we just don't buy what you're selling, not that your fantasies of repression have anything to do with reality.
Given the circumstances I can see your anger, but where did this come from? Where did I say I'm an anarchist and that I'm angry that people don't beleive me? Or that anyone is running a conspiracy?
Too bad that a knockout gas that is reasonably safe (for the general population including infants, asthmatics, etc) and reasonably effective (against a fit, adrenalin-pumped enemy) does not exist.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
By the way in case any of you get caught up in "Senator" Clinton's rhetoric condemming the terrorists, I'll replay some commentary for you in which she gushes nearly ceaslessly for Arafat.
If they're properly obtaining and serving warrants, and not attempting to stretch them into fishing expeditions, no problem.
That said, we need to be on the alert for attempts by politicians and bureaucrats to exploit the dead to push their latest wish list. Besides the evils contained in the wish lists themselves, such attempts undermine support for legitimate government action against terrorists and other criminals. Those who pull such stunts are, therefore, allies of the terrorists as well as enemies of the Constitution.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
No, I agree in principle on all counts. Our government does not need to be pulling the crap it does in our names, and I think it's absolutely deplorable. But I have to ask, how responsible can I or any other person-on-the-street American citizen be for something like Iran-Contra where the truth was actively kept from us in almost every way possible? We didn't have a clue what was going on until a C-130 full of weapons for the Contras pancaked in somewhere in Central America. And that sparked an investigation that should have led to the impeachment of a president, had we the evidence and the balls to pin it on him. Yeah, what happens eventually leaks out, but far, far too late for any of us to do anything to prevent it. Personally, I burn with an impotent sort of rage when I think about the sort of crap that happened in El Salvador and Honduras just because our government didn't like the governmental system of Nicaragua. I just don't see how one solitary ant can be expected to move a mountain.
I guess I'm saying that you have to make the buck stop somewhere, or you'll conclude that every human being on the planet needs to be executed posthaste. The dividing line between active participants and and everyone else is a convenient and well-recognized place to do so, even if not absolutely 100% just in all cases.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
And one way is to punish and destroy completely those responsible so that those that do try to come along in the future think twice about fucking with us.
But how does this work when you are dealing with suicide bombers?
Don't get me wrong here, I agree with you but I am playing the Devil's Advocate so I can try to figure out what would be the most effective response so as to make this type of attack unappealing.
Unlike some people, my mores are not dissuaded by acts of cowardice and terror.
2 days since I posted the response that began this thread, I see now that America is giving in to its own weaknesses.
Stupid, uneducated men are calling for blood.
More blood.
Can you not see the ridiculous nature of this scenario?
WE ALL LIVE ON THIS PLANET TOGETHER, IRRESPECTIVE OF OUR INDIVIDUAL CULTURAL BARRIERS.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Well, that's fair enough. But it only makes it more disgusting when our own citizens are heartless enough to say it was our fault because we are "Evil Capitalists"
The suicide attackers are nothing more than pawns in this situation. They are brainwashed morons who've been convinced that killing Americans is the path to heaven. I imagine they're quite warm where they are right now.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Did you vote for the government in power when the NATO treaty was ratified?
I know I can't speak for you. I'm not trying to.
NATO means a lot. For fifty years, the USA promised to fight with us against a common enemy
Now, unexpectedly, a new enemy has attacked the United States.
As a nation, we promised that we would defend any other nation that was a member of NATO.
We *will* do that.
Whoever you voted for, you are now part of the "we" thing.
We (yes, that includes you) are now at war.
Do you want to win?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh with regard to the palestenians. I guess I just got so tired of the anti-Israeli propaganda that I came on a little strong.
When I, personally think about Palestenians, I do not think in anger or contempt or hatered, but in sorrow. A few posts above I describe how the situation was when I was groing up (20-20 years ago). Palestenians amongst Israelies were a common sight. We'd just come out of the last war, and people were starting to trust each other.
How it all exploded I do not know. I was too young.
As for what the situation is like. Well, I haven't been to Israel for three years, and the popular outlook seems to have changed since then, largely due to terrorism (witness Sharon being elected prime minister, replacing the peace-oriented government before him).
I always assumed most people, Israelies and Palestenians, want peace, want to simply be allowed to live their lives in peace and understanding. However, there are evildoers and war-mongers on both sides. Dissidents who cry War, Destruction, never forgive. These people get through to the easily influenced, and I'm afraid to say it looks like that's a lot easier to do in the Palestenian side. You could not easily convince an Israeli teenager to go blow himself up in a Palestenian marketplace because then he'll get 7 Maidens in Heaven. But you can teach him to fear and hate. And sooner or later he's going to be issued a uniform and rifle and given training and permission to use it.
I also believe now there cannot be Peace as long as Arafat speaks for the Palestenians. The Israeli government is less of an issue since that can get replaced on a regular basis - and hopefully the next one will be a peace-oriented one. I used to give Arafat the benefit of the doubt, but he's proven to be unwilling or unable to control terrorism.
Again, both sides have their assortment of noisy MORONS who do not want peace, because they don't know what a real war is. I'm personally content not to find out. I'm certain that if there was some soft of infrastructure (read: internet access) where YOUTHS from both sides could meet and talk, there would be a much better understanding. The war is caused by Old People who don't even remember what they're fighting for.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
As in, it happens to be current. Its also owned by Conrad Black, as I understand it, a bit of a media mogul in his own right, but not a completely partisan newspaper.
Anyone who thinks American journalism doesn't lie to them has issues.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
It looks like talking to you means wasting my time.
;-) and farewell.
Everything I say - both facts and logic - can't penetrate your thick shield of bigotry.
So, I don't intend to listen to your insults anymore, especially since you're not capable to producing anything else.
Good night (or should I say Laila Tiaba?
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Yes I can confirm that we had oen person abaord an aircraft. It was a middle level manager.
Beyond that I have been asked not to say anything in respect of the privacy of his family.
Your SIG, "Keep current on the genocide perpetuated by the zionist israelis" doesn't exactly lead one to believe that you'd direct me to something neutral or with high journalistic integrity either.
The Jerusalem Post was mentioned only because it is a very large paper in the area and happens to cover the events from their perspective. The NYT covers events from an angle that the Globe and Mail (Canadian) wouldn't cover them from for that matter.
All news should be taken with an open and critical mind to some degree.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)