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Are DVDs Software Or Films?
NewsWatcher writes: "In Australia a court case with international ramifications will decide if DVDs are software or films. If they are designated as software, rental prices will go through the roof, if they are films their distribution cannot be limited under copyright laws.
This article explains the ins and outs ." Unrelated incident -- FatRatBastard writes: "C|Net News is reporting that the new Warner Bros Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus. Note this only effects those who install the supplemental Windows software that comes on the DVD. The article claims that "The virus only affects PCs that load the disc, not DVD players" so I'm not sure if the DVD auto installs software if loaded on a Win PC, or if infection only happens if the user chooses to install the supplemental software."
Is a tape music or software?
Is a floppy disk music or software?
The media that something resides on does not change the identity of what it is. Therefore a DVD-based movie is still a movie.
The software on the DVD itself is software. The movie on the DVD itself is film. How hard is that?
Thats sorta a tough one, I guess it could go either way but really? why not treat DVD as a whole new media? It would save alot of headaches.
Snoozer.
I personally think that the DVD Videos themselves should be considered as films/video whereas DVD-ROM only discs should be software.
As far as DVD-Video discs with DVD-ROM content should be placed in whatever group the disc was primarily made for. Like the "Powerpuff Girls" DVD should be considered "film", although it's just a short-length cartoon with some "software" data on it since it's primary purpose isn't "software" related.
Just my opinion...
the new Warner Bros Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus. Note this only effects those who install the supplemental Windows software that comes on the DVD. The article claims that "The virus only affects PCs that load the disc, not DVD players" so I'm not sure if the DVD auto installs software if loaded on a Win PC, or if infection only happens if the user chooses to install the supplemental software
Kinda makes you wonder if the DVD publishers are intentionally putting viruses onto the discs... after all it's those damn computer users who are causing all the pirating isn't it?
Im going home to watch Redhat 7.2 now, Don't post any spoilers.
Its like a CD. If its nothing but music, its a music CD. If it has computer (non-music) data, its software.
If its something I can use in my DVD player (attached to the TV, not computer), and get the full potential of the DVD, its a film. If there's extra stuff only my computer DVD-ROM can read, its software.
Over simplified? Probably.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Well if the prices of rental DVD's go through the roof, I doubt people or for that matter rental places will go along with that. DVD's are better to navigate around and so forth and have better quality, but I wouldn't rent a movie for 20 bucks just to see it and bring it back. And doesn't BlockBuster and those such places have contract agreements with the film companies about this sort of thing to?
Linux is only free if your time is worthless
I'm wondering what the wholesale vs retail prices are for videos, is the gap as wide?
From article:
Warner simultaneously releases DVDs to the retail and rental market. They are color coded - silver for retail at
a wholesale price of $24, and blue for rental, wholesaling at $55.
When Warner threatened to sue video shops caught renting the retail-designated DVD, the association -
representing 55 per cent of Australian video shops - took the offensive. It argues that under the Copyright Act,
Warner cannot restrict the rental of DVD movies.
DVDs are film. the extra content on the disc should be considered the same as any flyers or inserts that come with the DVD. Unless the primary purpose for buying a DVD is software then it should be considered film.
Some DVDs are film only. Some are software only. Some are films with minor menu software. Some are films with game software.
It depends.
But the thing that's disturbing is that the Powerpuff Girls have a virus. It must be the work of that villain MoJo JoJo! Quick, call the mayor's secretary, she'll know what to do!
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
man, i hate funlove. it's one of those viruses that just will not go away. when you work in a distributed organization, there are dozens of ways for something to get infected. yeah, they should have scanned the final product, but it's not all that surprising that it snuck out.
Indie rock lives! b-side!
Well, if I put this into my windows box, I'd definatly get infected. Autorun does try to Install the PC Friendly software that comes on some DVD's. You can turn Autorun off, but that's beyond most "normal" users. I personally think the company should replace all the infected dvd's.
-=-Ze End-=-
"...the new Warner Bros Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus. Note this only effects those who install the supplemental Windows software that comes on the DVD."
;)
For once, having a Mac and not having all the DVD bells and whistles supported is a good thing
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Does this mean that when I buy a music cd that has "supplemental software" on it, I am really just buying a computer program in the same sense that games are a computer program that has a soundtrack in the game? Maybe this will give the RIAA an excuse to charge $50 for a cd now...Or will software makers be forced to lower their prices to $18-$13...
Winter 2010: With Glowing Hearts
Yes, simplification, which will end up with a simple workaround if the courts take that view: all that Warner has to do is include some crappy DVD player s/w with every film.
Al.
How will the powerpuff girls survive this one? Stay tuned next week to find out!
:)
Note: The powerpuff Girls special edition antivirus dvd available soon
--- Need web hosting?
...is to see what happens when it's run on the XBox. I never really thought about that, but do you really want a console that is highly susceptible to virii?
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
the new Warner Bros Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus.
/. story EVER.
Alright, who doesn't agree that this has got to be the funniest
Something I've been wondering. How is the interactive part of a DVD programmed? Is there some sort of specialized Flash-style DVD language? Is there a spec for it somewhere? How is it encoded? How would you do something for your own custom DVDs?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
It seems from the article that the case Warner Home Video is presenting is that a DVD is computer software with a movie hidden somwhere inside, which is totally bogus.
When I go out to purchase a DVD, I'm thinking, "Wow, Fight Club is going to look awesome on my friends big screen;" not, "Wow, I can't wait to go home and enjoy my Fight Club-related software and included movie!" The mere fact that they market these as things that you *WATCH* with extra features should totally nullify their whole argument. I might be able to understand it if they called it "Interactive software, *now with a free movie!*," but they don't, because nobody wants that crap, they want a movie, if they didn't they wouldn't have purchased it. Get off your high-horse Warner and stop gouging rental outlets.
Fight Spammers!
I'm sure we've all heard of the arcade game from 1982, but there is actually a DVD version that you play with your DVD remote control. It doesn't run on your computer natively (you still use your DVD software to play it). Even in the store I bought it, it was in the movie section.
But is this really a movie? Or is it software?
(Ok ok, I know the first reply would be "But do we care?")
Actually, you made it more complicated and confusing...
Last time I checked, software is a word which generally refers to a collection of instructions which is executed on a hardware or software device.
IE, If a DVD movie includes a game you can play on your TV, it's software. If a DVD just consists of encoded pixels for a movie, it's data.
Lets not make this more complicated than it really is or redefine things which have been properly defined for the past 50 years.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Scenario 1: it's considered software, and rental prices go through the roof. The MPAA would freak if this happened.. people would pirate movies more than ever if this happened. MPAA gets screwed.
Scenario 2: it's considered a movie, and they are forced to remove Region Encoding... this allows a huge class-action lawsuit involving anyone who's ever bought a region restricted DVD (read everyone in the world). MPAA gets screwed.
hehe, since viruses are one of the last non-copyrightable pieces of software left, it wouldn't be illegal under the DMCA to change the coding to, say, delete all the .MP3 and Ogg files off of a system?
heh, it's so funny, I really wouldn't put it past them anymore...
It used to be that a few seconds at the front of every videotape said "Copying is prohibited, etc, etc," and you'd just fast forward through it. Nowadays all my DVDs have thirty second clips of FBI warnings, and they include codes that prevent my DVD player from fast forwarding. The DVD, literally, takes precedence over what I click on my remote control.
Although we all understand the UCITA has turned into a frightful mess, it seems like there does need to be a standard set of laws for software and content. When I buy a CD, most of the time I know what I'm getting and I know how to use it. When I buy a DVD, I don't know if they've somehow inserted idiotic menus and ads that I will be forced to watch.
From vinyl LP to DVD, it's all software. Even more so, if you can create it, manipulate it and read it on a computer. btw, what do you think your DVD player really is?
There was a rental store near my parents house that rented computer games and they were the same as renting say a super nintendo game or whatever.
Free Mac Mini
So, does the FunLove virus get DMCA protection like the rest of the content on the DVD? If so, would it be illegal for the virus to install itself? What if an infected computer subsequently spreads the virus to others? Hmmm... I smell a rat...
Is there something that I'm not understanding here?
If the DVD contains a Movie stored in a digital format, created for the primary purpose of viewing said movie, it is a FILM. NOTE: Primary purpose means that it it also includes with the movie some software such as screensavers themed to the movie, but is marketed as a video, its primary purpose is to view the movie.
If the DVD was create to store data which will install applications onto a computer or simalar device, its SOFTWARE.
Why is this so hard to understand???
Am I Over-Moderating??
Powerpuff Girls DVD is infected with the FunLove virus.
:(
.........
OK... there is a BUNCH of good jokes here!
1. Man... I would really like to infect the Powerpuff girls with my fun love...
2. I met this powerpuff girl in the bad part of town last month. Long story short - she was infected with something and it wasn't the funlove virus
3. anagram... "powerlove puffgirls" or "fun girls love (to) puff" or "girls love (my) power puff"...
yada yada... you get the point
Is that where those sort of people come from?
Pick One: http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~stremler/sigs/sigs.html (Note - disable Javascript first!)
They're making the wrong categorization. They should be asking "is it an application, or is it content?" Everything that's not hardware is software; but some are applications (software that can be used to create content, or other software) and some is content (software that can't be used to create other content, or other software).
Of course, this means that video games are content, not software, too. But that's a much more reasonable distinction to make, anyway. After all, what is a video game but an interactive movie?
If they are designated as software, rental prices will go through the roof, if they are films their distribution cannot be limited under copyright laws Anyone else see this as highly unlikely? The idea that Hollywood will charge a higher price because of the determination of "what it is" is ludicrous. Hollywood will (and already has) place DVD prices at the rate they feel is most beneficial to them. It's called capitalism.
Yes, I'm ignorant about law, but I can't imagine any reason this wouldn't already be the case. What the customer is willing to pay is what will ultimately set the price.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Mojo: Hahaha! Now the powerpuff girls cannot sell their DVD because the software contained inside it is infected with the virus I infected the software contained inside the DVD with. Now the Powerpuff girls' goody-goody reputation will be tarnished because nobody would beleive that the goody-goody Powerpuff Girls would do something that would tarnish their reputation like distributing a DVD that was infected with a virus!
Blossom: Not so fast, Mojo! The DVD runs just fine under linux if you use DeCSS!
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While it's not common to see CD titles referred to as "software" in consumer-speak, it's pretty common in HI-FI parlance. I thing it's probably a UK-ism.
I mean think about it... any digital media player is basically a computer, and any media it plays is software. Trying to draw a distinction is a bit silly.
IF dvds were software then that would make playing them under linux even harder since (presumably) the software would only be win32 binaries. As it stands a dvd is just a video stream, and hence can be played under linux with the appropriate playback tools.
IMHO its just another excuse by the allready fat and rich movie companies to make yet more money.
Most DVD's do have an interface that requires programming to be executed. So in that respect, they could be considered software. The Terminator 2 DVD, for example, has a little slide show that takes you through certain elements of the movie. This requires a form of programming for the DVD player to interpret. That's not what we bought the DVD for, but it is how it works. I have a feeling it will be techincally considered software. I find that a bit offensive tho. I liked what somebody said earlier that DVD's should be ranked in a different class. These ancient umbrella terms just won't hold up to modern technology.
"Derp de derp."
Why is software treated differently than any other copyrighted work? Especially in the case of DVDs, where there is no explicit licensing (e.g., shrinkwrap licenses) involved?
It seems to me that if software has different redistribution terms than, say, a book, the legal foundation is the license under which it's distributed. If DVDs are distributed like books (and it seems to me that they are), then they should be treated under copyright law like books are, regardless of the nature of the contents.
Am I missing something?
The presumption that forcing rental places to pay the full $55 will make rental prices go through the roof is, as presented, flawed. It assumes that the added cost of the DVDs will be such that the rental companies MUST charge significantly more to make up the difference. I expect that the cost of media is actually very small relative to the overhead of paying rent and staffing the store, so even a doubling of media price should not mean a doubling of rental prices. It assumes that rental places are forced to use the cheaper, non-rental DVDs because otherwise they would not make any money at all - i.e., that the margins on the rental business are razor sharp and depend critically on the price of the DVD. But a possibility is that these rental places are just looking to save every buck they can, and that they would still make a comfortable (albeit smaller) margin renting out $55 CDs.
Ultimately the price of rentals will NOT be determined solely by the cost of the media to the renting company. It will be determined by the market forces of supply and demand. The price will largely be determined by what price consumers are willing to pay. Given that DVDs are relatively inexpensive now (5-6 times the price of a 2-day rental in Canada), I think it is clear that the maximum price for (say) a 2-day DVD rental is clearly bounded and not much more than what those prices are now, and hence it seems unlikely DVD rental prices would ever go "through the roof".
I think this could have ramifications in the US as well, since software rental is illegal (at least in Virginia). Obviously, an Australian court ruling doesn't directly affect the US; however, it would give studios a big enough woody to try something like that here...
If it was software, then it falls under the whole licensing rigamarole that most software does. However, they use the same type of legal warnings that VHS movies use. Plus, it's basically the same content. Yeah, it's got some flashy menus and such, but as many have said before if you classify this as software then CDs become software too. The content's the same, it's the media it's on that's different.
This is YADL (yet another dumb lawsuit) perpetrated by a company who wants to improve its bottom line. Should be interesting to see if the Aussies have more sense in their digital media policies than we do. It sickens me when a company tries to muck with laws in the digital era just because the lawmakers are ignorant about new technology. "Oh, it's the same movie, just on a different media, but let's call it software so we can charge more". Disgusting.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
I don't think consumers need to fear this one much. While either film distributors or video stores will see their margins affected, it all balances out in the end.
Should the courts decide that DVDs *are* films, we'll probably just see more DVD's come out in an expensive version targeted at video stores a few weeks before the consumer market priced DVD's come out. Motivated video stores will get the releases early on (most have special agreements with the film distributors already anyhow). Those stores that wait will not see as many rentals since demand is highest at initial release, but they will save one the cost of the DVD.
If you have been watching PowerPuff Girls videos on your server...please go to the front of the line. That goes beyong geekdom....into a whole new realm.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
The results of this battle already exist, what happened to VHS. Movies on VHS are released for rental use many months before being available to purchase, typically. These rental purpose copies are often over a hundred dollars. So, in the end, DVDs when first released will cost over a hundred dollars so that renters can make money before the DVD is released to the public at it's normal cost.
Surely a "Film" is a thin sheet or strip of flexible material, such as a cellulose derivative or a thermoplastic resin, coated with a photosensitive emulsion and used to make photographic negatives or transparencies.
wouldnt the correct terminology be a "motion picture" or "movie" be more appropriate as the definition of a Film implies its of a analogous nature as apposed to DVD's digital one,
personally i think its software as it needs an operating system in order to decode the digital "code" and its certainly is not hardware
Isn't the data stored on a DVD a massive collection of bits? Wouldn't that mean it's software?
Even if you don't consider the movie software, there's no way you can convince me that the menus aren't...
DVD's contain very simple programs in a virtual machine that handle a lot of the viewing control settings. If they are software however then the film industry still loses.
Under EU law I have a right to make backups of software.
wouldn't this mean that Warner Bros is guilty of terrorism under the new patriot act? If so wouldn't that mean that the US military should head in and start bombing the snot out of them?
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
This is about how the Aussies categorize their products (and, I would guess from the story, there's some price control laws in effect), not Hollywood.
Real simple: if they change the prices, just rent tapes.
Funnily enough the Campaign for Digital Rights was having a discussion about whether CDs can be treated as software(http://uk.eurorights.org/lists/ukcdr/200
This has large implications for backing music up and/or created mp3s as software is treated very differently to music under UK law, such ""Back up copies.
50A.=97(1) It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to make any back up copy of it which it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use.
So it's nice to see Warner Home video arguing our case.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
So I guess the virus on the disc woulnd't count as an Easter Egg ;)
http://www.dvdeastereggs.com
DVDs are hardware. The content on DVDs can either be software or film. That's up to whoever made the DVD.
An MPEG file isn't software. An EXE isn't film (although it could contain a film). I don't see the problem in making the determination.
OTOH, if a DVD is software, and not a motion picture, I can publicly display it and charge for admission. There is no right to public display for software.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
The question is: was this done maliciously?
...
I know that I would be pretty pissed if I had
to work at Warners and have all those shit head
cartoon characters trying to look up my dress
Bastards.
How is copyright law and consumer rights different between software and film?
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
Does this mean that if my computer gets infected with Funlove from this DVD and starts spreading it around to my friends that the MPAA will come after me for illegally redistributing their content?
:)
Sometimes I am really shocked at what people waste time on.
As pointed out in other comments, DVD is just a different media onto which data can be recorded.
Why do courts waste their time on this?
From reading through the DMCA, there were countless places where they purposely made a distinction between digital content and software. Basically, they can do things with content (like keep you from making a backup) that they cannot do with software.
Anyone want to correct me?
all that Warner has to do is include some crappy DVD player s/w with every film.
Sounds like unlawful bundling of a monopoly product (such as American Pie DVDs) with another product (DVD software), in order to extend the market of that second product.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
The article claims that "The virus only affects PCs that load the disc, not DVD players" so I'm not sure if the DVD auto installs software if loaded on a Win PC, or if infection only happens if the user chooses to install the supplemental software."
Nothing will get installed automatically if you choose to set a system up the way it should be -- I.E. Nothing without the user telling it to do so.
That's one of the biggest dangers (and most easily prevented) of Microsoft operating systems.
In an effort to make systems more automated so Joe-Shitwits can use them, systems have become so powerful they have the power to destroy themselves like the mindless machines they are.
I leave Autoinsert Notification on, but I turn off the ability for disks to autorun software. Thankfully, other operating systems aren't nearly as obnoxious about this as Windows is. (Though, I'm not sure how the Mac handles it...)
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
It would be a bad thing for DVDs if they are found to be software. Raising the price of their rental will change their course to be a marginalized technology such as laser disc. If a consumer has the choice between the VHS version for even half the cost, I think most will go back to VHS.
Do I think they may be software? Well, a lot of DVDs do have those crappy games and such attached to them. But even some music CDs have this. It's a tough call.
-no broken link
According to websters
.ifo file is software and
software (sôftwâr, sft-)
n. Computer Science
The programs, routines, and symbolic languages that control the functioning of the hardware and direct its operation.
In that sense the
you could even argue that the MPEG2 program stream
is software.
But in the same way you could say that a video
casette is software.
What is the legal definition of software?
Is digital television transmitting software?
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
A DVD movie is a stream of bits that is processed by hardware and converted into something humans use.
A software title is a stream of bits that is processed by hardware and converted into something humans use.
Content is basically another form of software.
Not to say that I approve of adding more restrictions, just because you can call it software... I don't approve of any restrictions, period.
But it's important to realize that bits are bits, and no matter what sort of content those bits make up, they're essentially alike.
Those 'consortiums' of movie and music production companies would be wise to quit hoarding the works for themselves, and try to get them distributed freely, faster. Let consumers pick which artistic works they like the most. No one artist may make as much money, but there will probably be more people collectively making more money than their are today because of the huge barrier to entrance into the industry that all those music and movie studios have set up.
At least that's how I'd classify my pr0n collection. :)
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
A DVD is a small (a few inches across) plastic-type disc that is shiny on one side or both. It has a hole in the middle. It is neither a film nor software. Such a question is idiotic.
The content is just that: Content. Purchase/rental/theft of a DVD means you have a bit of plastic with some license rights to its contents; those rights are software or film style.
Obviously Warner is completely full of shit here and just trying to scam the system. I cannot see a judge with even a slight clue falling for it.
First off I consider analog or digital recordings, regardless of physical media, to be data. If, to manipulate that data, there resides on same media a mechanism, that should be considered software. Encrypted, compressed, whatever, it's data on your CD/DVD disk and to convert it to music requires logic circuitry and a D/A converter.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Oops, that should be "Hardware..." and, no, my hands were not occupied with something else. ;)
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
There was a device on the market a while back which used VHS tapes for computer backups. They managed to get a pretty impressive amount of data on - the device got some good reviews at the time. I can't remember who made it, though, so no details. :(
That means that DVD players are encryption technology, and you need a munitions license to export them!
"Here, you two morons fight it out. Let us know if you need more ammo."
Brian
Software and movies.. both are code of some kind manipulating hardware to produce images on a screen. What is the difference? If intellectual property is to exist, then one broad law should be able to cover media copyright in any form. It should clearly state what fair use and restrictions exist. Until some sane version exists, people will simply do what they please.
The whole concept of intellectual property was intended to encourage innovation, but it has been appropriated and corrupted by corporations to protect their interests. The whole mess looks like a power user's windows registry after 3 years of abuse.. format and reinstall time baby.
-Zaphod
Surely it's still illegal under DMCA to circumvent security devices on software? In which case DeCSS remains "illegal" whether the DVD is hardware or software.
Besides, CSS is encryption. You can make a straight copy of a disk without decrypting it, so it doesn't stop you making a backup.
(Consider the usual IANAL comments to have been made. Why we don't just insist that lawyers put IAAL I don't know, it'd save a lot of bandwidth.)
If Warner wins on this they should be required to replace any scratched, lost, or otherwise unplayable DVD for the cost of the media only. ($1). BY LAW.
No. Only possible ramifications. This really only decides what DVD's are under Austrailian law.
Trust me, Great Brittan, Mexico, Canada, China, and where I am, the US, do not follow Aussie law.
Just because one country decides something is so under their own law, doesn't make it so under anyone elses.
You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely.
One other point to add is the tax ramifications.
Each item that is imported has a specific tax section in the code, and will taxed according to that code. Now I don't know what will get hit harder but there should be a difference between the import tax rate for video and software ( both on DVD )
-Onepoint
if you see me, smile and say hello.
The law is a place for things that make sense, but the law is intentionally a very slow moving cumbersome beast. Of course when there's a major shift in any realm governed by laws the law takes a while to catch up. Unfortunately this process of catching up can involve short term idiocy while the ramifications of the laws are truely understood. This process is further muddled because there are power structures built around the old way of doing things which are now at risk.
Right now what we see is that lawmakers are trying to maintain those power structures. The reasons for this are numerous but I think that in the long run as the negative impact of artificially sustaining these structures will become clear.
For example we talk here about whether this is software or a movie. Well it is software, but then every form of media is getting to be software of a sort. Identifying these things as software is fine, but the problem here is the notion that somehow being software changes the nature of the beast. It's the problem that somehow first sale doctrine is slowly getting corrupted by EULA's.
The concept of licensing of intellectual property was originally intended for dealing with small scope releases. You'd license information to a subsidiary or a contractor and because of the nature of the information it made sense to have broad restrictions on what they could do with that information. But when we are talking about mass commercial sales, a EULA makes no sense at all. Why should I be unable to sell my used copy of Microsoft Windows but be able to sell my used copy of a VNV Nation album? The purpose of EULA's was to limit the distribution and use of proprietary information but if things are being distributed on a broad scale, it doesn't make any sense (except for those wishing to usurp copyright law).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I mean really! This, and every other content/encryption/copyright issue is moot.
Copy protection has never and will never work. Someday scientists will discover a law, much like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which explains why this is so.
In the mean time, reality speaks for itself. Pass all the laws you want. Make all the encryption you can invent. It will be hacked, bypassed, ignored and laughed at. The more difficult you make it for us to just enjoy a movie, the more incentive to create software and devices to subvert. Make it easy, convenient and fair, and I'll happily pay.
You think the war on drugs was a failure? At least there were real physical objects to chase after. The ephemeral nature of digital transmission and storage makes any attempt to regulate it impractical and impossible.
So sue, sue, sue your little hearts out, while we are happily swapping and downloading, breaking DVD encryption, digital watermarking and digital books.
The "most powerful" country in the world can't even catch terrorists, how is anyone going to catch bits of data?
Meanwhile I'm going to spend my money paying for more bandwidth and hardware, not being gouged renting or purchasing CDs, DVDs or anything else. I haven't bought a CD in over a year. With the money I save I'll be buying DVD burner.
Have fun storming the castle!
Does this mean people at Warner Bros can be jailed for years under the new terrorism act?
Same, same.
In the UK at present, it is not uncommon for film distributors to charge different amounts for the non-theatric hire (film clubs, schools, oil rigs etc) of a film based on the physical medium. A 35mm print of a film might cost £250 for a single screening, compared to £80-100 for a 16mm print and £50-80 for a VHS or DVD print. They're all still films, but the different media command different prices. Interestingly, a rental agreement for a film in one format does not permit exhibition in a different format - often different formats are distributed by different companies.
However, that is not the issue behind this Australian case, where (cheaper) retail prints are being used in place of (more expensive) rental prints. The price does not reflect the 'value' of the physical print or of the film therein (although for VHS, the recording quality of rental prints is generally better than that of retail), but rather the rights which are permitted to the owner of the print.
IMHO, Warner is entirely justified in attempting to stamp out unlicensed rental of retail prints, just as it already makes non-theatric hire licenses available at a lower price than that of theatric hire licenses (as would be required of a cinema or other commercial exhibitor). I say again, the cost of a print (for sale or rent) depends on the exhibition rights which are given to its owner.
Pretty simple, it's not software, it's a film. It's just like a VHS tape, only they add in extras sometimes. You could do the same thing with VHS, but there aren't that many VHS drives for PC's.
~ now you know
Are oranges apples or pears?
All sweeping generalizations suck.
I wonder how the MPAA will defend their use of region coding? When's the last time that you bought a piece of software that was linked to the theatrical release of a movie. I can just see it... Microsoft won't release Office 2004 until after "Back to the Future IV" has shown in theaters in your area.
If they dropped region coding (which they won't do), do you think that rental stores will just buy (probably cheaper) grey market videos?
The way this used to work in the days of VHS was that they would sell only one version of the tapes... For the first few months it would be priced at the rental-store-price of $100-$300, and then after that it would drop to the consumer-price of $20-$30. Now, I guess they're getting greedy and want to sell to consumers as soon as possible.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
If warner claims that the DVD is a software, then it is potentially opening a pandora's box. Soon, the artists will demand that they should be compensated for including their work in software! Is Warner prepared for such an outcome? While for new movies, it might have some contract in place, I bet they don't have any such contract for old movies and that would prevent them from bringing older movies on DVDs
This will probably get lost in all the noise, but here we go anyway.
Imagine for a second a world where DVDs had never been invented. In such a world, any interactive content would have to be packaged separately, say in a bundled CD-ROM like you get in kids cereal boxes these days. This presents a clear physical separation of the interactive content from the product. In this case the "software" component is just a freebie extra that *happens* to come with the video (or cereal).
Now back to the real world where we DVDs have been invented. The physical separation of software and product (in this case video content) becomes a *logical* separation. Instead of a VHS cassette box and a bundled CD-ROM, we now have the abstract separation of MPEG files and executable binaries. The interactive content is still just a freebie extra that *happens* to come with the purchase or rental of the DVD. In this case, we must consider the DVD to a film, and have all the copyright privilidges and restricitons of said media.
But wait, there's more. The above case only works if one cannot interact directly with the movie as it is being played. Suppose someone devises a method for actually interacting with a running movie. Remember "Clue", the movie with several different endings? Suppose someone had devised a method that, through user choices made during the playback of the movie, different storylines would appear. In this case, the DVD must be considered "software" because playback somehow contains binary instructions for choosing a movie path.
Therefore, I advocate a classification system where discs are labled as "software" or "film". It may be slightly convoluted, but it seems to me that this is the only way to be fair...
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
"Software"....
Now, any decent dyed-in-the-wool geek can agree that a piece of "software" is an instruction-set that executes on a turing machine. Eventually, whether the turing machine is represented in a combination of hardware (x86 machine code anyone?) or in a collection of software (I love my Perl), the result is the same: Both are software.
Now, for the second case, it's interesting to look at the "collection of software" or interpretter or virtual machine (take your pick by all means). Now this "collection of software" is obviously software (reflexive identity). So it _is_ possible to have software that is used to execute software (my Perl programs are _too_ software d@mnit).
So, when I examine the byte-structure of my *.pl files... I notice to my horror that they contain all these non-zero data between 0 and 255.
Horrifyingly enough, so do all my *.mp3 files and even the data blocks on my DVD's.
Does that mean they're software?
Does that mean that my Perl programs are content?
Yes!
Simply put: The distinction between content and software has not been drawn cohesively on a technological basis.
Does that mean that laws cannot be crafted that distinguish between the categories of products?
No!
One approach would be to categorize the product based on an intended use, my laserdisk version of Dragon's Lair is decidedly a software product, I still enjoy playing it; however, my laserdisks of the original Star Wars trilogy are decidedly not softare. Similarly, I don't anticipate that any movies I buy would be well-categorized as software due to usage.
Basically, the problem is that a cohesive, medium-orthoganal, and useful treatment of copyright materials has not been crafted by any government in a manner more consistent with usage and ethical principles than with public and lobbyist pressures.
If I rent a copy of Super-Mario and then record the audio and video while I play, I can do what I want with the recording. If I do the same while playing The Matrix, I'm in trouble. This is the difference between Software and Film.
What is software? Its information. What is a film on a CD? Information again. This confuses people.
What sort of information is software? It consists of two essential properties: instructions and data. The instructions tell a computer what to do with the data.
A movie, quite in contrast, consists only of data. Where are the computer-understandable instructions in that stream of data that is on a DVD?
That stream of data would crash your computer in seconds if you try to use it as instructions (side-question: would that make Windows sort of a movie?) Software on a DVD doesn't transform the movie into software for exactly the same reason that staying in a garage doesn't make you a car.
You found a sword: +4 damage, +5 moderator points
but rather a collection of data that follows a DVD format. Read it through a text editor and it's garbage. Simply a stimulus/input for a certain program or hardware response. Think language ... I know English, so my brain can process it and understand an english speaker. I don't know Chinese, so it might all be nonsense to me, but that nonsense might at times sound like English so I can process it, but not be correct in the interpretation.
All they have to do to show DVD's are film and not software is to load in a full-frame DVD - usually they start with the warning "This FILM has been formatted to fit your screen".
If the DVD itself says it's a film, how can they say otherwise? This sounds like an argument even someone with no technical expertise can disagree with.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Here's why.
These exact same bastards are claiming that software isn't protected speech in the DeCSS case.
If software isn't protected speech, and DVDs are software, then DVDs are not protected speech.
That means the government can start censoring all kinds of movies, and music and assrape the entire entertainment industry.
Then, they can see how it feels to have the First Amendment rights that they value trampled a little bit.
In fact, I might start just such a crusade just to be a prick.
It makes me wonder if people who open their mouths and start spouting bullshit that that they think will help their position of the moment ever think back to what they said yesterday. I wonder whether or not they think about any sort of a larger picture, or whether they are even capable of understanding things in a larger context. Did you ever read that "mappers" and "packers" paper? They must be a bunch of packers to start doing something this stupid in the face of the DeCSS thing.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
The major trade association for video stores in the US is the VSDA. For the acronym impaired, that stands for Video Software Dealers Association. The members of this organization (which admittedly has been hijacked by Blockbuster, and Hollywood Video) are currently quite happy with the way that the studios have been releasing DVDs at what are called "sell through" pricing rather than "rental pricing". At the same time, the studios have still been releasing VHS tapes at "rental" prices for the first six weeks and then dropping the price once the video stores have paid the much higher premium - and had a chance to recover that higher cost. As a hypothetical example, the DVD version of Phantom Menace (sell through) might wholesale for 16.98, while the (rental priced) VHS version would wholesale for 80-100 bucks. (Six weeks later, the VHS version is released for sell-through and is on sale at Wal-Mart for 19.95.)
Various leasing programs (revenue sharing) complicate that picture quite a bit, but they also play hell with the video stores cash flow (so aren't as widespread as the studios might like). This difference in pricing is the reason that Blockbuster just took a massive inventory writedown to recognize that their old VHS tapes aren't worth a cup of warm spit - and to really move into DVD in a big way. The revenue sharing route means that the initial cost of a "rental priced" VHS tape will be around ten bucks, but the stores lose around half the revenue (the exact amounts vary, but are always covered by really nasty NDAs - I would have rented Battlefield Earth if I knew that my local store owned their copy as opposed to having a revenue share where some funds could find their way back to the CoS) .When they can buy the DVD outright for about twice as much, and keep all the revenue there is no incentive to go to the revenue sharing.
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
If you can have a Virus on a DVD, surely it must be software?
Besides, as the DVD prices in Austrialia are cheap, and no-one rents DVD's anyway ($3 for two nights when you can buy it for $9) it mustn't be that important, unless it's the Tax (ie. EU's Computer tax is alot lower then on Films)
And besides, there's always DivX....
The XBox doesn't run Win32 PE executable files so no autorun stuff is going to work. To improve performance (and give game devs more flexibility) everything on the XBox runs in kernel mode so you really are never going to see anything that runs on consumer Windows (9x, 2k, XP etc.) run on the XBox.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
...that so many /. users know so much about the Power Puff Girls!
Man, you guys need to move out of your parents house, and get a life!
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
We are are at war with the Taliban, and Bin Laden.
I disagree with the statement that rental prices will go through the roof if DVD's are declared software.
The law of supply and demand still applies. If you charge an outrageous price for your product, I won't buy. Period!
If you get enough folks like myself refusing to buy your outrageously priced product, you will go out of business.
COuld have been a sony hardware targeted virus.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
don't you think software might just be another form of content? and content might just be another form of object? and object might just be... never mind.
Now I may be completely wrong, but I thought the US Government put a stop to the rental or "try-it before you buy-it" software. If DVD's are ruled as software, would that mean that Blockbuster and Hollywood Video would no longer be able to rent DVD's?
Now wouldn't that put one hell of a dent in the motion picture industry!
"Liked the Movie? Sorry, but you'll have to buy it if you want to see it again. Unless you want to rent the low res VHS tape.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
Neither. They are plastic.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Clearly there can't be an across the board ruling here since what we're talking about is a just a stupid medium. The whole storing frames in memory BS cannot be a legitimate argument since I can easily construct a VCR that stores frames in memory. In fact I have a video board in my PC that already does this. I could also construct a DVD player (granted, a somewhat choppy one) that doesn't store frames in memory.
So what we're really talking about here, at the logical conclusion, is creating a new standards organization for anyone who wants to claim they are releasing mixed content. However, this might not be so bad since the delays involved in submitting to such an organization would probably discourage most of these claims.
Never underestimate the power of fiber.
This is also the reason why this DVD classification is unrealistic in any way. Information can be data, can be software. Data can be information, movies, audio and so on. But whenever is information "information"?
Point is that anything is information, your acts, but also the things you just don't do. Classifying information always has deep consequences.
Classification is the same as 'making a decision', but a decision can never be perfect, as it always *excludes* something.
In this DVD case, we see another stupid attempt to classify something unjust, while the consequences may be very undesirable. It's just lack of knowledge, of people who don't understand a thing about the impacts.
Bizar technology?
Yeah - you know why? Because blockbuster I believe is owned by paramount... - and there all in it together (just look at the plaintiffs in the 2600 case)
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
I seriously doubt TW has considered the implications of its success if it gets DVD videos considered to be software.
They will then be Microsoft's competition.
Ouch.
In light of the recent possibility of Microsoft getting off "scott-free" with or without the 3 person panel, this is going to be a battle of the titans, to put it mildly.
*IF* that turns out to be the case, I honestly don't know if I/we should be scared shitless or sit back and enjoy the show.
(shrug)
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
For some time, the Slashdot crowd has been arguing that DVDs are software, not movies. They involve encryption schemes that are software driven and also include menus and extras that are also software driven. The reason its such a big deal is that if it is software, you have a legal right to make a backup copy for your archive. If it is a movie, you don't necessarily have that legal right. If it is software and you have a legal right to make a backup, then you might want to decrypt the disc in order to copy it. DeCSS allows you to do that, but the MPAA is fighting DeCSS with a vengeance. So you have a legal right to make a backup copy, but it is against the law to circumvent the copy protection device that is included with the disc. A classic Catch-22. Which law takes precedence? This whole issue just highlights the need for some clear definition of what constitutes fair use and what rights the consumer has over something they pay for.
DVDs can hold audio, video, and software. CDs can do the same thing (CD Audio, Video CD, ISO 9660). If the DVD is intended to be a movie, it is a movie. It is no different than if a CD is intended to be a audio disc.
If that wasn't the case, then only LaserDiscs could be movies and Mini-discs could be only audio.
... who as far as we know had nothing to do with 9/11. Why don't we just bomb canada, too?
Wow, you are stupid. Maybe it wasn't bin Laden, maybe it was the tooth fairy, or just a figment of our imagination. Why is it that you are more prone to beleiving what bin Laden and the Taliban are saying rather than your own fucking government?
The definition of software under the copyright act is basically any instructions that make a machine produce a desire result. There are US legal precedents that imply that HTML qualifies.
Unlike a music CD, a DVD has navigation commands that were rich enough to implement the old game Dragonslayer. This includes chapter markup, paging, etc... The MPEG-2 and AC-3 compression is essentially instruction for how to reproduce the raw video and sound. Even the CSS encryption TPM is a software mechanism. During the preliminary injuction hearing in the DeCSS DMCA case Kaplan asked the MPAA guy something like "What is this key thing? is it hardware, is it software?" and the reply was "it is software".
I think it is very clear that DVD's are more than simple content. They are meant to be read only by a particular computer program.
The implication is that 17 USC 117 applies which gives "owners" of software certain additional rights - ability to "adapt" for use in a machine and ability to archive. If a DVD is software, it also refutes judge Kaplan's reverse engineering analysis (he found the DMCA RE clauses only apply to software works and wrongly assumed that a DVD wasn't one).
Why is it that you are more prone to beleiving what bin Laden and the Taliban are saying rather than your own fucking government?
:-)
Could it have something to do with the fucking part?
have any viruses popped up that infect the Nuon-based DVD players? It could update the bios, then play "Who Let the Dogs Out" MIDI file during love scenes of any Meg Ryan films...
A movie is software, so a DVD indeed is software, and so are a VHS tape and a vinyl record : although analogical, they still contain instructions that are interpreted by a device, so they qualify as software.
Could it have something to do with the fucking part? :-)
Hey, if my government is fucking, I want in!
Why is it that you are more prone to beleiving what bin Laden and the Taliban are saying rather than your own fucking government?
Actually it has more to do with NOT being a good little american-consumer-sheep and swallowing whatever gee dubbya tells me to believe than it does with believing what the taliban and bin laden are saying. apparently innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist any more.. until this "proof" our gov't has of his guilt is made available for public scrutiny I'll continue to believe the taliban and bin laden make good scapegoat and that's about it. are they evil? probably. did they fly planes into the world trade center? maybe. do innocent afghanis need to die because we think they are kinda evil and MAY have killed innocent americans? no.
Wouldn't the same arguments apply? In fact, PS is a programming language. Don Lancaster: "an unappreciated yet superb general purpose computing language"
Regards, Mark
Think of your favorite games that have FMV sequences. The actual game engine, software, controls the FMV "movie". But the entire CD is considered software.
Take Microsoft's Encarta on DVD. I'm sure MS isn't going to say that's a "movie" no matter how many videos it contains.
A "movie" DVD, on the other hand, contains a relatively small "software" portion and a comparatively larger "movie" portion (plural if you consider the outtakes, trailers, interviews). So what's the difference? The actual sizes of the "software" and "movie"???
It's absurd to consider a DVD anything BUT software.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
(From my weblog:) I would like to propose an interesting spin on this story: Should Warner Brothers win, then the following syllogism will hold:
- All movies are expressions that in America would be protected under the First Amendment.
- All movies are software (since all movies can be put on DVD).
- There exists at least one movie.
- Therefore, there exists software that in America would be protected under the First Amendment.
Once a single piece of software is over that line, it's going to be very, very hard to draw a line that includes movies (movies, of all things!), yet excludes other things.This story hails from Australia, not the USA, but it would still probably have some interesting ramifications, even in Australia.
Note that in particular, DeCSS, a DVD decryption program, is trying to claim software-as-expression as a defense in the USA. Warner, a member of the RIAA, has gone on record now, at least in Australia, as claiming that DVD movies are an instance of a thing that is both software and an expression protectable under the First Amendment.
So, a DVD is software that renders film... Argh my head hurts....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
DMCA is so horrid. I mean-- Microsoft has decent quality control in their manufacturing process (they use UNIX according to a recently removed KB article). The chances of getting a virus from legit MS software is pretty low because they are a software company and understand the issues of virus-free distribution.
One thing the DMCA does, though, is give complete content control to the entertainment industry. I mean, this is a virus. If they can't sell virus-free media, do you REALLY expect their content protection systems to be that much more professional?
The SSSCA is even worse for this reason...
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
If the disc is to be put in the films section of a video store, it is priced as a film. If a disc is to be put in the games/software section of a video store, it is priced as software.
The decision could be made by either the video store, or mandated by the manufacturer. Warner could mandate that all their discs are software, in which case they must be placed in the software section. Or a video store could purchase "film" versions, in which case they must be displayed in the film section, or "software" versions. The manufacturer could then get a fine imposed against stores that put them in the wrong section.
Of course, from the legal notification on the beginning of the DVD (FBI Warning), it seems that the movie companies are claiming that they are films. No end user lisence agreement, just the same FBI warning one would see on a VHS.
My 2 cents:
I think since they are _primarily_ used for viewing movies, they should legally be treated as films, with the exception of DVD-based "games" (such as the DVD version of Dragon's Lair).
And as far as other programs on the disc that require a PC to play (such as the infamous stuff on the Powerpuff Girls disc), there should be a separate lisence for those individually, as not to confuse those with the actual film content.
Of course, I'm sure that movie companies want it "both ways," so that when they bust some poor 14 year old for using DeCSS to watch an out of region DVD, they can charge him with video piracy laws AND software piracy laws, and make sure he gets twice as much time in ass-pounding federal prison.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Getting DVDs classed as software to give the companies more control in how high they can set the price for their product is a lot different from actually getting people to pay that price. Fine, kill imports, nuke rental places renting grey market stuff, change 4 times the current price -- The market will simply go elsewhere for their fun. Weekend swapmeets are growing and, hey, there's that funky library thing too.
Wow, this "Anonymous Coward" can't stop arguing with him/herself.
Yeah, I know the drill. -1 Offtopic
The best definition of software I can think of is this: a set of instructions for a machine to follow. With that definition both films and music are just specialized software. The real bitch will be when machines are capable of building people from subatomic particles (i.e. transporters). Then what will people be but software? It's all about the information, after all.
BlackGriffen
The encoding used to generate a viewed movie from a DVD is a series of commands to a special device called a "DVD Player". The DVD contents include menus. They sometimes include games which the DVD player executes. It also includes special instructions to paint regions of the screen and make sound come out of a speaker.
Most importantly, the language is "Turing-complete". You can calculate anything a Turing machine can calculate with it. Calculate and display Pi to a million digits and scroll through it with the forward and backward buttons on the remote.
The particular method of encoding the movie that was used *is* software. The movie is embedded in software.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
http://www.nomoreaolcds.com
Yes I know this is off-topic but it is in a good cause.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the video/audio/software quality of a DVD hard coded in the directory structure?
/mnt/dvdrom/video_ts/RPMS/ directory might confuse the players.
There's a video_ts subdir that set-top DVD boxes MUST have for video. There's a similar audio_ts for "DVD-AUDIO", just in case it ever catches on. And there's anything else for software.
They can be easily classified by whichever has the majority of the content. For example, that _PowerPuff Girls_ DVD probably has 4 GB of video, and less than 100MB of software. _The Complete National Geographic_ DVD set, which I own, comes with a "free" episode of "National Geographic Explorer" on one disc, but that doesn't make it not software.
Hmm... I just hope noboby comes out with an RPM-based linux distro named "video_ts"...that
Why not? What about a Flash file? Is that software? Define software.
2 tracks of data on the CD: 1 for the movie [ mpeg stuff ] and then the executable programs and stuff that PC's read, and Autorun [arrg!!] if you dont go... [right-click] My Computer -> "Properties" -> Device Manager -> CDROM -> Properties [highlight relevant drive] -> clear the checkbox "Auto insert notification" -> OK.
Ali [ at london d0t c0m ]
Interesting. But your syllogism is not totally bulletproof. The major flaw with your argument is that studios could claim that a physical DVD contains both software and data. They would pretend that the DVD contains a "program" which plays the "movie data"
Then they can have it both ways: the data is protected under the first amendment, while the program is not. They don't want software to be first-amendment protected of course, and for DVDs they don't need it to be.
From what I understand of the DVD format, I think that would be bulls**t. But, they might be able to get it past a judge.
Other flaws with your proposed syllogism:
1. Not all movies are protected by the first amendment. (child porn)
2. Not all movies ARE software, because not all movies are on DVD.
A better version:
1. There exist DVDs which contain motion pictures protected by the first amendment as free speech in the United States.
2. DVDs contain software (as claimed by the studios)
3. The software and motion picture content of a DVD are inseparable. (the potentially weak point)
3. Therefore, there exists software which is protected by the first amendment as free speech in the United States.
I agree with the rest of your post - if you can get to point #3, it would be difficult for the studios to say that other software, including DeCSS, should not be protected as free speech.
BTW, the important thing about Warner w.r.t. the DeCSS case is that they are a member of the DVD CCA (the movie / CSS people), not the RIAA (the music people). They're all evil, so it's easy to get them mixed up...
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
oops. I can't count after 5 pm.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
We had a similar court case to determine whether (music) CD's are music or software.
.wav files stored digitally that needed software to play.
The reason this came up was because only for the last couple of years did we have we had tax on software in Australia.
If the (music) CD's were classified as software we could import them without the tax applied to (music) CD's that were classified as music.
Although I did agree that music CD's are just a form of media used for
Sounds like software to me.
The outcome was that (music) CD's are classified as music so I assume the same will occur for DVD's.
> Each item that is imported has a specific tax section in the code, and will taxed according to that code. Now I don't know what will get hit harder but there should be a difference between the import tax rate for video and software ( both on DVD )
huh. Not in Australia there isn't. Ever heard of the great beast in Australia known as the GST
1 flat rate of 10% on everything except food, medicines and other such things.
"In Australia a court case with international ramifications will decide if DVDs are software or films. If they are designated as software, rental prices will go through the roof, if they are films their distribution cannot be limited under copyright laws."
Here's the decision we'll get: It's both!
rental prices will go through the roof,
yup
cannot be limited under copyright laws.
that too! Sounds like a win/win for the movie industry here.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
Wow I did not know that, 1 import tax rate for most products. that's very interesting. ( I had imports from Australia mostly wine and meats, each had their own tax rate and in japan it was the same thing, a specific tax rate ). I have heard that in europe CD's (new) could have 2 types of import tax rates depending if they had different capacities.
thank you for the insight,
Onepoint
if you see me, smile and say hello.
They would pretend that the DVD contains a "program" which plays the "movie data"
;-)
Errrr, no, they couldn't. Even a judge can see through that one. The program is quite clearly in the player.
'Not all movies are protected by the first amendment.'
The ones Warner Brothers make are!!!
'Not all movies ARE software, because not all movies are on DVD.'
The only thing we're talking about is movies on DVD. The existance of other things doesn't much matter. It's DVD's WB wants to claim are software.
BTW, the important thing about Warner w.r.t. the DeCSS case is that they are a member of the DVD CCA (the movie / CSS people), not the RIAA (the music people). They're all evil, so it's easy to get them mixed up...
Ahhhh, frick.
And yes, 3 is weak. Like I said, the only thing we get here is an admission that *some* software is isomorphic to first-amendment protectable content. The point is that in the DeCSS case, the movie industry wants to argue that *no* software is first-amendment-protectable.
Software or movie it's all just data. Software or movie that data is interpretted (in some sense of the word) by another software/firmware/hardware combination to provide some form of output.
On that side of the equation the two are largely inseperable.
However I think a key factor is considering how the data is created. On the software side you have a piece of data which is the logically exact representation of that data's source. It is a definitive rendition. On the movie side (analogue or digital) that is not true. The data is an approximation of the original, not a logically definitive rendition of it.
In short anything that is being pushed through a lossy process and be still expected to "work" cannot be considered software as software does not tolerate such lossyness (if that's a word).
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Ironically, the video stores here also rent out software (playstation games etc - PC CDROM's sometimes)
Zilch
What we have is overlapping definitions.
A movie on a DVD is binary. The DVD player is the architecture. An exe in windows is a binary. The platform is a mix of cpu and windows APIs. Those APIs are again binaries of the same type.
Can you differentiate? No way.
Argument: the DVD movie is binary that is only played by the DVD player software.
Response: very true. Windows is also a binary that runs in a binary player called VMWare. Is Windows a movie? Most people consider it software.
Argument: a DVD movie is designed to be a movie, though, without user interaction.
Response: the only thing you will accomplish with this is to stop production of DVDs that have special interactive features, because they will change the class of the product. The 7th Guest is a good example of something that could easily be a DVD. Mostly digital video. What would you call it if I encoded a movie into a binary executable? The executable is certainly software.
The point of this is to say that it is absolutely possible for something to be BOTH a movie and software. That's ridiculous to think these two things don't overlap.
I just pulled a definition of software. Nowhere in the definition mentions binaries. It simply says that it is used with hardware, but is not itself hardware. Hmm. I'm software.
a : the entire set of programs, procedures, and related documentation associated with system and especially a computer system;
documentation is certaily not binary. in the dictionary definition, a movie is software. No matter what you play it on. VHS, DVD player, PC, bleh bleh bleh bleh.
kudos to the people that brought this one to court. the old system is on its way out. there are many books written about life when the old system is forced to stay. not just software/movie system. everything computer related recently has been chaotic.
Wouldn't the lawyers love that!
And I don't regret it. It was just one movie. Franco Zefferelli's "Romeo and Juliet".
I wouldn't do it for any other movie though.
I would like to thank theage.com.au for the advertisement for women's underwear that was embedded in a technical article. Apparently, they have not heard that people in the U.S. can get *FIRED* for reading things like that ...
Grrrr.
Yes, reloading the page made a different ad pop up in the space, and fortunately, my boss was *not* in my cube at the time.
Also, Yes, our current "harassment" policies are getting out of hand over here, but it will take a while for this puritanical obsession to die out, again.
Chivalry is not dead, it's just frequently misspelt. - M. Langley
It's amazing the capacity of self harming of MPAA. DVD with virus? I can't believe this, but the most funny of all this is that nobody can develop a scan software neither a fix software, because it'll fall upon DMCA.
What can we do now? I just won't run WB DVDs on my windows box (As if I had one). And outside US everybody else who can choose between a official copy of and a unofficial clean copy of WB DVD will surely choose the unofficial.
Once again, MPAA amazes me with it's power of self harming.
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I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
Simply lay it side by side with a roll of 72mm camera film.
Really, the answer isn't as obvious as you seem to think.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
In order to really debate this, there needs to be a clear definition of what "software" is. Websters' doesn't cut it - HTML documents, CD audio, etc, all fall under it.
How about "Software, n. Computer Science
Instructions to a turing-complete hardware system which produces an image or effect that is manipulatable and interactive for the user."
That covers anything you can manipulate in software. Games, AutoCAD, Windows, MacOS, Linux, MUDs, etc... but it doesn't cover video (you can't manipulate it to what you want), audio (same, you can't change what the song sounds like without other software that acts on it), and such.
Most of the definitions penned quite a long time ago for computer technology need to be updated in a major way.
I don't hold a legal qualification, but Copyright was my chosen topic for Engineering Law in my Software Engineering course. So this is a topic close to my heart. I am not a lawyer, but I play one on TV
While this will make rental DVDs more expensive (possibly?) it will give us Australians certain rights over our purchased DVDs which I don't think we have over purchased movies:Copyright ACT 1968
Part III Division 4A is the interesting part:
Firstly, the meaning of a "Computer Program":
Sections 47B and 47D protect the right to make reproductions of software for the purposes of studying the software and making compatible software (reverse engineering)
Section 47C protects the back-up rights of software, including for any of the following purposes:
However, these are not valid (amongst other restrictions)
However I think the DeCSS case showed that copies can certainly be made without modifying the "program".
And the funnest bit is that the license agreement cannot deny these clauses:
Sideline: Grr to Slashdot not liking <dl>'s.
More interesting sideline: Ross Jones, commisioner of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission had this to say about DVDs:Difficulties between the pro-competitive community and Intellectual Property
It's worth noting that the ACCC has a good history in this area. If you read the linked article, as well as the full reasoning for DVD region coding being a breach of the Trade Practices Act, also mentioned is the ongoing case by the ACCC against Sony, Warner and Universal over parallel CD imports. Sony settled without admitting liability, but did give $200k to the ACCC for legal costs. Universal, Warner and several senior execs were still facing court, with the penalty being up to $10 million per contravention.
Paul "TBBle" Hampson
Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
I'm not saying this doesn't have some other implications--I'm just saying that the U.S. market could care less. (I hear there are a couple of people in the U.S. reading / .?)