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U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
The whole of the U.S. Department of Interior has been forced off of the internet as a result of a court case Cobell v. Babbit. This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers. A judge decided to take the whole of the organization down. Should this judge have this much power? Info here on the
indian trust web site. This includes the BLM, USGS and the Park Service. Staggering, really. CD: Hold off on the blaming of MS, it's still not clear.
If it's offline, then why include a link to the (now defunct) website?
...if it has been ordered offline? ;)
libertarianswag.com
have this much power? I mean I would understand holding in contempt or fining a large amount but bringing down a computer network? There is something there that reeks of misuse of power.
It seems that steps could have been taken to have prevented a full out shut-down of everything. Tighten some things down.... clean it up a bit. I would think there would be some security consultants that could have at least came up with a temp fix until some more lasting changes could be made.
...that were as easily broken into as those of the department of interior I would want them to make it more secure first as well. If they are incapable of that they should be taken offline until the safety of the information is addressed.
======== In the future, everything will be artificial. ========
This would be like the Government sending my tax return in cash -- it's irresposible because anyone could easily open my mailbox and find almost $3 of totally spendible money ready and waiting.
It seems to be that forcing the whole system offline until it's ready for the modern internet was the only responsible course of action here.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
i wish the threat of losing your job, your site, your contract, etc, REALLY WAS as real as this. there would be a lot less successful hacking going on. Many fewer insecure wireless ethernets, and so on. i don't see this as anything too bad. it will be brought back online again when the dept. of the interior realizes that no judge can tell them what to do when their the gov't.
Well at least there is one competent judge in the US. Personally this decision makes alot of sense, as in previously posted... if you can't keep confidential information confidential then you shouldn't have the information. All and all a good decision. I wonder how this affects Microsoft? Maybe now their get their collectively large asses moving and fix those damn security issues before each major release so we don't have to go updating to Microsoft Windows Service Pack 143.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers
Just wait until it crashes in a couple of weeks and the problem will be solved.
Of course the judge should have this much power.. it's what we called a "check" in civics class. The executive branch is sucking, and nobody could make it stop sucking if the judicial branch had no power.
I'm not trying to troll... do you have another source that says MS Windows was the problem? It doesn't even say what the problem was... it could have been a bunch of passwords set to "password" for all we know.
so a judge cut off a computer network because it housed sensitive data important to particular individuals which was not secure.
whats the problem here? i wish this would happen more often.
I know I ruined my slashdot credibility by actually READING THE ARTICLE, but this applies only to systems that provide access to the Indian Trust data, and its an emergency order designed to protect the people whose data is stored there. This was a "computer infrastructure so easily penetrable that a court investigator and his team of security experts were able to break in and repeatedly access, modify and even create trust data -- all without raising a response from the government." This involves the finances of over 300,000 people, I don't think the judge was out of bounds in ordering it closed.
It may seem a bit extreme to make the ruling so pervasive, but then again that may be the only way to get those brain-dead govt managers to create a real system (like perhaps without MS software to start).
Of course this judge should have the ability to do this! For gods sake, if it houses critical data and is insecure, get it off the network! This case should give some people a clue and make them think twice about who they hire to administer thier networks.
Yes, absolutely, a Federal Judge should have this much power. It's one of the best checks against the possibility of tyranny.
Since the Executive and Legislative branches of government routinely ignore the U.S. Constitution, it is extremely important that we can count on the check of the Judiciary.
Wikia
How will anyone know if they are in compliance. Or if they are just /.ed.
At least they could put a temp. site on another server. Maybe Smokey the Bear, "Only you can prevent Windows security holes."
microsoft fixing something before releasing... sometimes high hopes, dreams, and acid trips just dont mix. corporations dont move...just toss us customers with small fixes that make things look better
Sometimes the caffiene simply doesnt help.
...on the indian trust web site...
You'd think they would use apache...
Patrick Cable II
it might be helpful if the person who posts the story actually provides some background info or a link to it. guess i have to go to google myself...
This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers.
However, I see no mention of the operating/database that was compromised. Following one of the background links there is reference to an IBM mainframe.
Among the facts omitted was the name of the Denver firm that maintains the IBM computer mainframe for the trust system
Just thought that should be pointed out.
Now the webservers may be IIS but the database being hacked was IBM. Most likely just a poor implementation.
Lots of information is available at the Indian Trust: Cobell v. Norton web site. Press releases plus offical court documents.
Of particular interest is this document, which more fully explains why the judge ordered all Internet access to the Department of Interior. Apparently, court investigators were able to break in and modify lots of important information without any response from the DoI.
Seems like this sets a legal precendence for locking down an entire business, organization, or corporation involved in a legal situation. If it can be demonstrated that it would be possible for an outside entity to modify data crucial to the proceeding of the case (such data would be subpeonaed), the judge can order all external access to that data cut off.
Since simply running a some Microsoft software makes it possible for a large number of outside entities to modify such data without difficulty, and to know that doing so is possible without having to figure it out, I could see this becoming a problem for businesses and organizations that run said Microsoft software.
However, it also means that lax UNIX administrators could have their systems' access cut off if court investigators demonstrate that they are able to get in. Sounds like Mac OS 9 is the best protection against this now.
Mentioned in the article posted before this one, many sections of this network was not protected by either firewall or password, and in many cases very simple passwords were used that online tools could easily guess. Also mentioned is that a common password was "passwd." That's not a Microsoft default.
Here is the article.
seems each element of doi uses its own server system - some are unix based, bia may not be . anyway seems the park service hasn't figured out how to go away like the others parts of doi.
sweeping action with far-reaching but unclear ramifications
Okay, the dept of interior has leaky systems. That is bad. Very bad. Maybe forcing all their systems offline is the right answer. I don't know.
A judge becoming your CTO at the behest of people making claims against you smells pretty stinky. From what I read, the complainants' investigators claimed to have edited trust records through the Internet. The interior department denied this happened. Who is right?
From now on if a group claims that their personal information is at risk that organization can be forced go entirely offline?
Scary because most judges are not technically competent nore do they have advisors technically competent enough to know who is making sense and who is just talking slick.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
"In a sweeping action with far-reaching but unclear ramifications, U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth granted the emergency request, which was brought on behalf of 300,000 American Indians whose assets are housed on a computer infrastructure so easily penetrable that a court investigator and his team of security experts were able to break in and repeatedly access, modify and even create trust data -- all without raising a response from the government."
/. wants to see liability extended to the same absurd levels of product and contingent liability that have been demonstrated in the McDonalds and other Python-esque liability cases, BUT...
it's actually well past time for the courts to hold organizations whose systems are busted by 12 year old scriddies running "canned scripts" from Toolz sites
how would you feel if this were your families' or your companie's sensitive and/or private information??? Information about your 502 or your daughter's rape, or your son's juvenille arrest for possessing underage TeleTubbie Pr0n?
"Coupled with the judge's action were criticisms from members of Congress about the security failures. "The GAO told us five years ago that the fund was in shambles," said Rep. Jim Hansen (R-Utah,) chairman of the House Resources Committee, which has jurisdiction over Indian affairs. "Now we learn that a computer security system deployed in 1999 is virtually worthless," he said."
i don't think anyone on
...isn't it about time the direct creators, distributors and managers of dangerously insecure computer systems have at least SOME small legal responsible (and limited accompanying monetary liability)????
If the facts on the Indian Trust website ARE true, DOI (and Congress) have long been aware of the problems and have been ducking the bullet on fixing it...if this were my money/info, I'd sure be upset...
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
have a squiz at the article....
Apart from that, this was appropriate (and overdue) recognition of the rights to privacy and security. The law doesn't (sorry shouldn't - i'm in Australia, after all) differ depending on medium - the Government are responsible for securing this data.
OK, after doing a little search over the article MS is NEVER mentioned ANYWHERE in the article. I'm no MS apologist, but this is absolutely ridiculous, can some of you junior high kids out there please get lives?
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
All your teepee's are belong to us?
Entering via the Internet, the "hackers" found they could break many of the passwords protecting accounts, using a tool called a "cracker." Many of the passwords, according to the report, were easy to guess, particularly one -- "passwd" -- which was frequently used.
This had nothing to do with the fact that they were running IIS, Apache, Joe's Web Server, etc. The issue was weak database passwords.
I blame MICROSOFT!!!!!
ummm, oops.
netcraft shows lots of different OS and servers are being used. The security breach could have been done through anyone of them, or the bad security could've been on the database itself.
... then again, that's not the sort of information they want to make public if the DOI wasn't addressing the problem.
For example :
The site doi.gov is running Lotus-Domino/5.0.8 on NT4/Windows 98.
The site www.den.doi.gov is running Netscape-Enterprise/4.0 on Solaris 8.
The site www.ios.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on unknown.
The site www.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on Solaris
I couldn't spot a document on indiantrust.org which went into technical details either
http://www.thehungersite.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Laugh at stupidity: mod idiots +1 Funny.
I work without a contract every day! I prefer to let my work's value set my salary rather than rely on my ability to to obstruct business.
You have to see some truth in the statement that unions only afford more protection to the mediocre worker than they do to the above average worker.
Yeah, those lazy, dimwitted USGS geologists and BLM rangeland scientists...the power they wield over us all is unimaginable! -Mark
..at least when I check a few minutes ago. And SamSpade is reporting the front-end NPS server is Netscape Enterprise v4.1.
:)
.. why let the facts hamper you?
-'fester
-'fester
Insurance companies do this. I know, because I helped enable one. When you have low-volume, high importance data (like the personal records of Native Americans!!) this approach is justified. I'm not surprised in the least, however, that our underfunded park service wasn't able to hire a government contractor that would take security seriously. We can be as condescending as we like (and we usually are) but if you've ever tried to work through federal procurement procedures, you understand you're dealing with a very limited talent pool.
... a judge could exercise that power on organizations other than the government
itself. Any guesses one of the first ones to go down for being insecure?
*cough* Passport *cough*
A lot of people's money and other things would be more secure if
the government forced Microsoft to make Passport a bit more secure,
as they are doing to their own institutions.
The implementation though, would be a nightmare, so maybe it's
OK the way it is now.
With all the recent uproar over online privacy and whatnot, I'm not too keen on the idea of a judge being able to shut down a website, but its not probable. I am wondering the reasons the judge didnt force them to change platforms, rather than shutting down the site completely. many are insecute, but from what i know, many are *shrug*
Sometimes the caffiene simply doesnt help.
The site www.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on Solaris.
The site www.blm.gov is running Apache/1.3.22 (Unix) PHP/4.0.6 on unknown.
The site www.nps.gov is running Netscape-Enterprise/4.1 on Solaris.
Oh, and nps is still up....
I just skimmed through a bunch of the articles and can't find any mention, anywhere, of what software is running their site.
(Kind of annoying, actually, crappy sysadmins or not it would be nice to know.)
If anybody finds a mention, please post a link to the specific article.
Did you not get it, or did you just not find it funny? The joke is that she was pissed off about her kid being in an adult chat room, and she took it out on the Dept. of the Interior.
:P
Oh well, i guess my humor is too advanced for you humans.
Oh shit! I forgot to click "Post Anonymously"...
...thousands of Earth Science/Remote Sensing/Computer Mapping Systems students, some at my University, are left without one of the largest repositories of information necessary to their research, projects, and finals.
Thank you, Judge OVER-REACT. How about an APPROPRIATE order, S#!t-for-brains!!
True, but the fundamental feeling behind unions is one of solidarity -- that *everyone* should be taken care of, not just those who are extremely skilled.
-Justin
That's enough posting for now lads, there're trolls afoot.
But if the credentialing scheme in place depends on Windows frontend servers being secure, you can damn well better bet that it will be dutifully serving up data to the wrong party.
Can't do much about that. I don't perform ANY core business functions on Microsoft server software, their history of getting brutally hacked and denying it is far too pervasive. (Yes, Sun and IBM are terrible too. Frankly, Red Hat and the OpenBSD Project are valuable to me not because they're "perfect", but because they're honest and prompt when they fuck up! I cut both organizations a new check every 6 months of my own free will, NOT because they try and force my company to. The checks come out of my after-tax salary; as far as I know the company has never paid a dime for either project's media.)
The consultants were probably lazy too, but don't get too overzealous to defend the most probable point of entry. I am somewhat less than surprised that a large gov't agency would screw up like this, although most of the dep'ts I work with at least have the sense to retain solid IT security consultants (I've met some very competent Lockheed employees, for example; I have no idea who was at fault in this incident).
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
This is bad. There have been many, many reports and firestorms about these computer systems according to the Special Master's Report released as a court document.
.gov agency has the report detailing their secuirity holes, they left many of them wide open. So much so that Predictive could add bogus accounts and transfer real monies from real accounts into the bogus accounts, get sensitive documents and lots of other mischief. Really bad.
Predictive (the security company) broke in and documented abysmal security -- no firwalls, blank administrator passwords, other stuff that would make any script kiddie drool. The response of the B. of Indian Affairs was "naw, it's not that bad; you cheated".
So Predictive did it again. Got basically the same results. So after the
In classic Dilbertesque style, the Gov blames the messenger, says it's not really that bad (again) and promises to do a whole lot of nothing -- just like it has been doing for 10 years according to the special master's report you can click on here:
http://www.indiantrust.org/documents.cfm
This is bad. Real bad. Sad to say this judicial action was necessary. Sad.
The mismanagement of these trust funds has been a problem for decades. It isn't surprising that a federal judge has to bitchslap the Department of Interior to get their attention. Maybe the government will start to act responsibly if the judge puts some political appointees and senior civil servants in jail for contempt of court .
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Troll? Apparently someone gave Aschroft mod points.
Umm... why is there a link to the DoI website if they've been forced off line...?
With permission from U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth, the special master's team logged onto computer servers, accessed databases, broke into Interior and Bureau of Indian Affairs networks, discovered they could modify and erase sensitive data and even created an Individual Indian Money (IIM) trust account in Balaran's name. All of these breaches occured repeatedly and with ease -- and all without being noticed, or even tracked, by the Interior's own computer officials.
Here's a rundown of how it happened.
Predictive originally planned a two-phase test of the Interior's computer infrastructure. First, it would try to access the system from the public Internet; and second, it would test the network from within.
However, the company soon found it could scrap the second phase because protections were non-existent.
"Early on in the testing it became apparent that it was possible to access the sensitive internal data from the Internet and that the internal on-site testing phase was not needed due to the lack of overall perimeter security," Predictive wrote in August after a first round of hacking.
Using widely available, and free, tools employed by hackers all over the world, Predictive tapped into a number of systems the Interior deemed "critical" to bringing its trust duties into the 21st century. These systems included:
Predictive was able to break into a TAAMS server because it had "no password." As a result, the firm could perform administrative, high-level functions typically not available to low-level users.
Also, Predictive could access TAAMS because the BIANET, a BIA network accessible via the Internet, had "blank" passwords. Through this vulnerability, the firm gained administrative powers that allowed it to access data stored in a TAAMS database.
TAAMS is housed on two AS/400 servers, made by IBM, in Addison, Texas. The servers, the database and all its associated logic (coded in dBase) are fully owned by a third party, Applied Terravision Systems, because the Interior failed to consider long-term ownership and development issues.
A so-called "legacy" system in use since 1982, Predictive was able to gain "complete access" to IRMS, which tracks leases and distributes payments to account holders. Weaknesses on the BIANET allowed the firm to see every IRMS account that has ever existed.
Predictive could modify and delete user accounts, meaning it could prevent authorized Interior users from entering the system and give access to non-authorized outsiders.
Further, Predictive gained "complete control" to an IRMS server because it had a "blank" password. The firm was able to copy files and create links to sensitive data to outside networks via standard and highly vulnerable Microsoft Windows capabilities.
IRMS is coded in Cobol 74, an outmoded but pervasive language, and is composed of six databases -- including individual and tribal ownership and leasing data -- that reside on a Unisys Clearpath NX server in Reston, Virginia. Reston is the location of the BIA's Office of Information Resources Management, whose controversial move from Albuquerque, New Mexico, was temporarily halted by Lamberth.
Additionally, Predictive found numerous problems on a number of systems, most of which are not specifically named because information in the report is redacted. The firm was able to access "sensitive" information including "gigabytes" of BIA e-mail, configuration files, log reports, and all usernames and passwords on an unnamed system. Many of these systems had weak password or no password protections.
Certain Interior computers were also running web servers, file transfer programs, remote access servers and other technologies that could allow anonymous access by outsiders. Other systems were prone to well-known hacking techniques, including denial of service, buffer overflows, "Trojan Horse" programs and Microsoft Windows "scripting" attacks -- all of which are typically preventable by applying readily available "patches" to fix security holes.
All of this hacking -- which took place between June 24 and July 8 -- led Predictive to conclude in an August report that the BIA lacks "basic security" measures. "Even if every security vulnerability in this report was corrected, BIA's overall lack of a secure network perimeter would still leave BIA exposed to additional risk," the firm wrote.
Predictive recommended the BIA implement such standard protections as a firewall and intrusion devices. Along with Balaran, the firm informed BIA of the numerous problems at a meeting with Brian Bowker, then-director of OIRM.
Despite Predictive's damaging report, Bowker indicated the company was successful only because he had "turned over the keys to the store." Balaran said he felt Bowker was trying to "discount" the findings, so he again instructed Predictive to break into the system on August 30.
It was during this time that Predictive created a trust account for Balaran, whose report is not specific as to which system was accessed to perform this incredible breach. Predictive was able to create its own trust data and modify existing data on an unnamed system, leading the firm yet again to warn BIA of problems and make a number of specific recommendations to correct the deficiencies.
...by posting incorrect information. .gov organization that is part of DOInet,
I'm a contract coder at a
and our net connection went out at approx. 2:30pm this afternoon.
I assure you that DOInet, yes the whole DOInet, was/is dark.
Yes, pulling the proverbial plug was totally irrational,
but remember, this is the US government,
the same people behind the recent raping of the constitution.
Irrational moves are par for the course.
P3nis
Darwin is rolling in his grave right about now...
I used to work for the USGS as a student employee in their computer services dept. Lack of security and competent network administration would be too kind for me to say. Stupidity like, each and every government computer has a public ip address, regardless if it is serving up web services. NT4 servers running with service pack four. And worse yet, users with full admin rights on their PCs, installing software and changing settings that could open them up for god knows what.
Seems to me that they already have this kind of power!
I'm sympathetic to the Indians. That accounting system has never been fully functional. And a lot of suspicious things, like fires that have destroyed records, have occured over the years to the Indian Trust. I'm heartended to see some positive progress behing made on correcting that horrible situation. The Indians already have it bad enough without this debacle making their plight worse.
However, the judge has done more harm than good by shutting the entire Interior's network access. As you pointed out, the USGS makes available the largest and most comprehensive repositories of geospatial data in the nation, and perhaps the world. Much of this data is free. And many universities, government organizations, and companies use that data; e.g., where do you think Rand-McNally gets its data to make maps?
Though I'm not as familiar with the other DOI departments and bureaus, I know that they, too, provide valuable public services that a number of people need to do their jobs.
Another angle is the impact on DOI employees. I can tell you I witnessed a number of people standing around the halls looking mystified at the USGS' headquarters in Reston this afternoon. We all depend on network access in some capacity to get our work done. In my case, it's crucial as I work with folks at the Mid-Continent Mapping Center in Rolla, Missouri. I was logged into one of their suns debugging some errant code when the plug was pulled. Most aggrivating.
(Initially I had thought that the network was down because of the Goner virus since the USGS has a history of shutting its network down when the system gets swamped by propogating virii and worms.)
MAC | A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
They have a bunch of IBM mainframes, Unisys NX, AS 400 etc. They had troubles with security in 1989 - from the report by Andersen's auditors. They had troubles with ecurity, backups, procedures in 1994.
They are plain lazy fucks.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
This is pretty funny
"BadTimes will make you fall in love with a penguin" - Laika
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
I would do this..
Put yourself in the shoes of the people that had their personal assets on a server that a 10year old kid could look at?
I would be Pretty Piseed. I'd also expect more, maybe foolishly, out of our own government.
So My response. Yes, I do think that that the judge did the right thing by ordering the plug pulled. The plug should be pulled on any government organization which is that insecure. Windows or not, it makes no difference.
This page left intentionally blank.
The fitness of the human species, which has guaranteed its survival, is its ability to undertake joint action, even at the expense of several individuals. A 'Union' is an example of Darwinian fitness. Before the union movement of the 19thC working class people and their children regularly starved to death, limiting their chances of reproduction. Since unionization, the survival rates of working class people are nearly equal to those of middle class (in the classical sense ie. those not either aristocratic nor working class) people.
s/complete control/owned/
it reads much funnier that way
The District Court's web site has the (redacted) Special Master's Report (PDF) which gives the technical details.
Whoever did the redacting didn't know much about the technology; it's frequently possible to infer what's been removed from context.
After reading the report, I understand why the judge ordered the networks disconnected from the Internet. If I were in his place, I'd have ordered the systems shut down completely.
The report is a case study in gross mismanagement of information systems; this isn't about holes in any vendor's software, but about people who, it seems, simply didn't care about data security or integrity.
This District Court page has copies of the other recent orders in the case, too.
and education is so obviously of such little value, that electrical engineers deserve to make more than teachers (well maybe not if they're in the midwest)!
That isn't solidarity, it's larcency, a natural consequence of communism.Hey the cold war is finished, get over it. And anyway larceny is the natural consequence of private ownership ...
Hold off on the blaming of MS, it's still not clear.
Boy, you call tell Timothy didn't post this story, can't you.
Just as long as we don't hear the President say (also in an Indian-related affair): "Mr. Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." The judiciary is only as much of a check on the Executive as it is allowed to be.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
You know.. I just thought of something. There is the WayBack Machine which lets you get past copies of ANY website. Do you think one could get a copy of the DOI and get cached copies of the data, or some such stuff?
I agree that sounds like a lot of money, but you have to take into consideration the cost of living in that area. I'm too lazy to look it up. I leave that as an exercise for the readers.
... seems to be completely irrelevant.
According to some of the other articles on that site, a large number of the passwords used to protect the data were such unguessables as "PASSWD". -_-;;
I don't care what kind of server you're running. If your security procedures are *that* stupid, it's gonna be a piece of cake for someone to hack in.
JesseLman
"Life... I don't have the answers. Of course, I don't know any of the questions either. I'm just in it for the spleens, really."
Its time to withdraw my $4,000,000,000.12 from my BIA trust account. It seems their servers might get hacked from the internet. Darn /. hackers!
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
I managed to get in before it all went down. I am now officially 3/4 Cherokee and the legitimate owner of South Dakota.
Thank you Microsoft.
-Rothfuss
...And in other news the whole Dept of Interior was taken out a team of Elite HaXors known ownly as "7th Circut District Court". A spokesman for the group commented "Mad Props for da Indian brothers."
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Actually, that McDonald's case you're so quick to dismiss is exactly like this. McDonald's *knew* that their coffee was far hotter than any competitor's, it knew that it had seriously harmed others, and it knew that the plantiff had originally only asked for her medical expenses to be covered. She was sitting in a car, sure, but it was stationary and she was a passenger, and I think others who were scalded were sitting at tables inside the restaurant.
It was the jury that decided that McDonald's needed to get a strong signal that its ongoing indifference to the harm caused by its actions would no longer be tolerated, and that huge punitive award (which was automatically capped by law, and further reduced on appeal) was an estimate of McDonald's profit on coffee sales for two days. That is hardly a burdensome amount - enough to get your attention, but probably something like $20-$50 for us. On appeal, the award was comparable to the change we can find in our seat cushions.
As for the DoI case, the court is pissed because one of the primary responsibilities of the court and its agents (which include every member of the bar, specifically including the Secretary of the Interior and her legal team) is to preserve evidence. You might get away with hiding evidence, but the fastest way for a lawyer to get disbarred is to get caught disposing of evidence. The government has clearly deliberately destroyed pertinent records in the past, but they've been claiming that's all ancient history that no current employee was involved with. Now we see strong evidence that the government, is indifferent at best, and deliberately trying to facilitate at worst, the destruction of additional records *today* which are required to determine the correct distribution of hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in royalty payments. Of course the judge is pissed -- and if the DoI drags their feet I would expect to see some of the lawyers hauled before disciplinary boards.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
And in one of the finer details of the ruling, the judge ordered Microsoft to be implicated in a story posted to the popular hacker web site Slashdot, which would ensure that the government site would quickly be taken down by a measure known in the hacker community as the Slashdot effect.
--Just the place for a snark!
not so fast, we don't need anything so drastic: Microsoft, the great warriors of the northwest, are willing to admit the problem is theirs, and they're proposing as a punishment that they will sacrifice and give licenses to their software (for a couple of years) to all government offices that don't have Microsoft software. And they'll even throw in some colorful beads. Do we need to pow wow on this anymore?
Microsoft may or may not be to blame, but this sure gives an indication as to what calibre of people one would look for to find those who do not patch their Microsoft software (or their IBM software or any other kind of software)!
Security does not end on the server platform! It needs to be everwhere, and so there is no place for M$.
Blame the admin and the luser is not going to work here. Others may be slow to cast blame, but I'm willing to bet good money the company with the poorest security record and the biggest ugly mouth is responsible for this mess. Let's hope this display of Federal common sense is catching. I'm really sick of all the BS, "that patch has been available for months", and "lazy sysadmins", and "stupid user should not have double clicked this or that". The judge seems to have seen the results and cared less about why.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
there had been Microsoft stuff in there.
"Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft"...
Then we could say, "Heh, not just fired. Fired, fined and put in jail for incompetence".
Oh, and noticed a link in a post:
http://www.indiantrust.org/documents.cfm
Coldfusion? Oye Veigh...someone needs some serious beatings with a clue stick.
CF is a great app for creating webforms and webDB access, but it is a security hole in its own right (IIRC from people who use it and even love it).
My favorite saying about CF is that it is an excellent benchmark...It runs slow on *everyone's* hardware (that it supports).
Cheers,
Moose.
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
The system holding the data didn't have to be on the internet. Just as an example, say the webserver was an NT server. The server could be configured in a trust relationship with another NT server to make data transfer easier. This would easily allow a single point of entry into a variety of networks. Even Apache's website was defaced because a script kiddie managed to hack into a trusted server, then get to apache.org by means of ssh.
It is not the easiest task to scale your network with new technology. Firewalls and DMZ's weren't implemented, most likely because it would have meant a large scale redesign. A large network that was never really meant to be put on the internet is inherently insecure, as there are no clear boundaries where the trusted network and the untrusted network coincide.
I am not advocating the severe mismanagement of the network, the shoddy passwords, the poor design, the lack of monitoring, or the apparent inability to get even the simplest tasks done, I am just stating that the scope of the project was beyond the capabilities or the budget to which the task was given. A billion dollar start-up, 20 million dollar annual budget, and 36 months of lead time, and I'd have the network humming along. What would you say if I gave you this proposal?
when one part of the government starts treating
people like crap, the justice system is supposed
to let us fight back. thats the whole point
of balance of power.
should the interior department have the power to put
all your personal data up for free editing by any idiot hacker
with a couple spare hours? what kind of personal info is in a trust?
bank accounts? money owed by the government? land titles?
hello, thats a persons whole life.
Sad to see "our" government still fucking over the Native Americans for everything they can, whenever they can.
ugh
you see, uhm,
ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.
damn lameness filter.
Furthermore, cut this in half, as the teachers pay about %50 of their wages in a myriad of taxes. I realize that they do not all go to the same branches of government, but they all go to governmnet, and not back in the teacher's pocket.
CD: Hold off on the blaming of MS, it's still not clear.
/., they said it'd help.
Can I still bash Microsoft if I really, really want to?
I just couldn't help blaming Microsoft whenever I see 'Microsoft Windows' in the news roundup. This is something like complusory-anti-microsoft something, I think I've medical clearance to back my action. People in 'Anti-Microsoft Anonymous' recommends me to post in
None of which changes the fact that her lawyer is apparently a total weenie.
And the brethren went away edified.
"What's individual trust data? Never heard of it"
passetspike!
Now that much of your work is halted, you should have plenty of resources available to fix the indian database problems. I feel your pain, but screwing up trust funds is a big big no no. Good luck fixing it. I imagine the holes were huge and from many directions for such a big order.
Hopefully, you will get some nice new software for all your desktops, non M$ of course. I mean, how many screen savers running are actually listening for passwords? How many Windoze computers were trusted by the servers? Getting rid of that stuff will be good for you and good for the taxpayers. =:> The world is watching!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
This is interesting because the college debate topic for NDT/CEDA this year deals with increasing federal control over Indian Country, and these people research voraciously. I suspect a lot of future lawyers will begin to learn about how ridiculous Microsoft is as a result of this, and to think about the ways that policy and software interact (Lessig anyone?)
We'll see.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
If you really want to have nightmares, take a look at what usually passes for computer security at your nearest public school system. If you have kids, you probably won't want their "confidential" information wandering around the internet because the clown hired to run the IT dept. doesn't know what passwords are for.
Well, the NPS web sites are still up. As someone
fighting the local NPS regarding how they fail
to properly follow the law regarding public notice
and comment periods, I can believe this case.
But are they in contempt for failing to take down
the NPS sites?
If I were affected by this system, I would also be concerned about folks being able to get to data about me that would allow social engineering attacks to occur outside the context of the physical system. This was one of the major types of attacks that Mitnick favored after all. A physical system attack is often only possible after a critical door somewhere has been opened.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
"Actually, that McDonald's case you're so quick to dismiss is exactly like this."
/.'rs are stupid. The DOI/Indian Trust case is about the DOI failing to exercise due diligence in the handling of the Indian Trust, to wit, the irresponsible and deleterious handling of both trust fiduciary assets and confidential trust data on its participants and beneficiaries Its ***NOT*** about Bottom Feeding Contingent Liability Lawyers who are sucking this country dry. I hope the Judge in the DOI case breaks it off at the knee in the DOI.
...the "us" you were talking about. There is NO "McDonald's". The judgement was also paid for by McD's shareholders.
since you seem to be defending a legal system that perceived as rampantly irresponsible by most Americans (in poll after poll*n)...to be precise, i wasn't dismising the McDonald's lawsuit, I was ridiculing it for illustrative purposes.
The DOI/Indian Trust case is not a product/contingent liabilty civil suit, you must think that all
People who support extremely irresponsible and irrational jury decisions, such as the McDonald's case, are costing everybody in America both money and opportunity, here's why:
1."McDonald's profit on coffee sales for two days. That is hardly a burdensome amount - enough to get your attention, but probably something like $20-$50 for us..."
THE SETTLEMENT DIDN'T COST MCDONALD'S ONE NICKEL, IT WAS PAID FOR BY MCDONALD'S ***CUSTOMERS***,
2. By encouraging people like that the person that sued McD, you create a society that values litigation over common sense.
I don't WANT to be on the road with someone who doesn't grasp that "coffee is hot". Like Stella Liebeck. I hope Stella (and her blood sucking attorney) remain objects of ridicule for every day of the rest of their lives. I also don't want to be on the road with someone who can't identify and manage simple threats to their personal safety.
"Consumer" Lawyers (contingent liability bottomfeeders specifically -- there are many lawyers who contribute to society and do great work for the poor and the needy) create an environment that discourages innovation and makes everyone American intelligent enough to grasp the (scalding liquids = personal danger) equation feel like the legal system is a bad joke designed for morons and con-artists.
Liability insurance add huge dollars to the cost of ***EVERY PRODUCT WE BUY***, it adds enormous costs to every startup company that wants to produce a item for public consumption/operation. When I bought my first Honda Interceptor I was trolling through the Owner's Manual and there in 20pt "Liability Lawyer Bold" was an instruction NOT TO DRINK THE BATTERY ACID!
Bob Heinlein used to have some of his literary characters joke that the standard you should have to meet in order to be allowed to reproduce was the ability to grasp and perform rudimentary integral calculus....I wonder what Bob would think about people who had be instructed that "hot coffee is hot" or "don't drink lethal chemicals"?
BONUS ROUND: Last year/b4 in Canada, some poor kid, during finals, had been on a classic "study to you drop" push, after a particular exam (Math???), he went on a drinking binge with his friends, got good and tanked (hadn't had much sleep/food for a coupla days)...sometime, early AM, he went to get a Coke from the dorm vending machine, he didn't have any change, so he shook the machine to loosen a Coke...didn't work too well, the machine fell over and crushed him to death (suffocation)....
his parents are sueing (Coke and the College) for big $$$$, claiming that Coca-Cola hadn't met the Canadian labeling laws for "dangerous machinery", by not providing an instructional label....they parents are angry and grief stricken and some a'hole attorney is looking to collect his 40-50% on their grief...Let's see; drunk, stealing a coke, shaking a several hundred pound vending machine with no one in sight, couldn't get out of the way in time...yeah, sure sounds like Coke's fault to me
.....
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Dude, the geeks around here blame Micro$oft every time their shit comes out the wrong consistency. If you expect them to pass up an opportunity like this, you're dreaming.
using homefair.com salary calculator, that $56k a year in New Jersey is $37k a year in Iowa. also the teachers mentioned were all fairly senior, which leads me to believe that only the ones who could afford it were striking. and in that case probably the most experienced, many of which would have their Masters degree. Do you have your Masters degree?
I think it's great that your teachers a paid reasonably. In Australia they have difficulty attracting and retaining good quality primary and secondary school teachers as the pay is so poor and the profession is given so little respect as a result - as a teacher you are better off doing a few 'computer courses' and finding a bludgey IT job, or actually just about any other job except nursing, than you are remaining as a teacher.
the average mailcarrier makes 40k a year.
Teachers should make 100K a year.
photosMy Photostream
You are conveniently ignoring the finding of fact from the McDonald's case.
McDonald's *knew* their coffee was much hotter than it should be. Dangerously too hot! McD's had funded research that showed them that their customers like their coffee a comfortable *warm* temperature, just like the coffee the get at other restaurants, or from their coffee makers at home. So why did McD's have a *corporate-level policy* directing stores to set the temperature on the coffee makers so extraordinarily high?
To cut down on free refils. The same research showed that customers given coffee that was too hot were MUCH more likely to depart the store without seeking a refill. The research finding also showed that there would be an increased risk of customer injuries.
The McDonald's corporation had been in possession of, and demonstrated an understanding of the facts of the situation, and chose to increase the risks to their customers for the sake of saving money.
God why are moderators so stupid as to mark this idiot troll a 4.
Do the math fuckhead they live in NJ. You know what the cost of living is like over there?
OH BTW. If I ran the world teachers would get paid ten times what engineers do. Especially idiots engineers like you. You disgrace your profession.
War is necrophilia.
If the DOI decided to shut down their entire network instead of taking those machines offline, that was their stupid decision.
On the other hand, if security is as lax as it seems, we all have (illegitimate, potential) access to said data. Maybe we'd better disconnect... ;)
You could not be more wrong. The fundamental feeling behind unions goes like this.
1) The management is united and organized and it's in their interest to pay as as little as possible while making us work as much as possible. Unless we organize and stand united we will be victims of cost cutting and abuse.
2) By organizing we can prevent management from arbitrarily firing one us to hire their sister in law.
3) By organizing we can lobby politicians to listen to us instead of them only listening to corporations.
Forming a union is self defense. It's also the absolute best way to piss of a corporation management. When ever they hear the word union veins pop out in their heads and they round up the goon squad. If you ever get pissed off at a corporation try to unionize their employees. It's fun (if a bit dangerous because they might actually try to kill you) and they will definately notice you. Much better then sending them flame email.
War is necrophilia.
Today, before the Senate, John Aschroft, the Attorney General of the United States, stated in plain terms that any criticism of Ashcroft's policies of extrajudicial military tribunals and other suspensions of civil and human rights will help terrorism. (LINK) .
I am not a lawyer. Do not take my words as legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult an attorney.
Kind of like the rest of us pay a myriad of taxes?
Pray tell, what extra taxes do THEY pay that everyone else doesn't?
Some of us have our priorities.
The attentive reader will note that Mr. Jackson suffered one of his most serious historical black eyes following that quote. I hope in this day of 24 hour news, no president would make such a logistical blunder.
Of course, we are talking about the folks who dusted off the Star Chamber and wrapped it in our paranoia. So disregard what I wrote. Time for the aluminum beanies.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
It never ceases to amaze me how a conservative statement always ends up with a "troll" marking while leftist "all software should be free" propaganda gets marked "interesting"
On the other hand, whenever those SAME Americans are called in for jury duty, they're the ones determining the amount of the damages. Funny, eh.
Of course, in truth, plaintiffs don't always win damages, awards are often not really all that high, and are often reduced by judges. Of course, if someone's only contact with the courts were shocking headlines without any further follow up, they might have as boneheaded an opinion as you.
Furthermore, you're way off-base with regards to contingency fees. First, they're capped in many states, generally around 30%... sometimes less. Second, if a plaintiff doesn't want to pay their lawyer on a contingency basis, they don't have to! It is entirely the choice of the plaintiff. The alternative of course, would be paying up front, but a lot of people couldn't afford that, EVEN THOUGH they have what would otherwise turn out to be successful claims. Third, lawyers assume a risk on contingency: they can easily not get paid at all, should they lose. Or if they don't win enough for their client, they'll wind up losing. (plaintiffs paying on a contingent basis suffer no risk, remember)
Plaintiff's lawyers who get windfalls on contingency fees are about as rare as lotto winners. I know an awful lot of lawyers, and they know even more lawyers, and no one seems to know anyone that made a fortune this way. It's pretty much just in the movies, and your head.
With regards to McDonald's, they paid the settlement (later reduced, btw) alright. Look at it this way: Either McD's pays out, keeps their prices stable, and lowers their profits to afford it, OR they pay out, raise their prices, and suffer a loss in business because of the higher price. Either way, they feel it.
Of course, hell, the plaintiff never even ASKED for punatives, IIRC. The jury awarded them of its own accord. The plaintiff really only wanted medical expenses.
Although you must remember: one of the GOALS of tort law, which has a lovely history dating back to the better part of a millennium, is to spread costs, and to put costs on those who can bear them. McD's can bear paying the plaintiff's medical expenses FAR better than she can. And McD's customers, should prices have to go up, et al, can bear the very widely spread damages even better.
It's like insurance. It covers you when you need it, but costs enough to encourage you to not need it. And it really only works well when there's a lot of people spreading the risk around.
You also seem to be thickheaded regarding the impairment to innovation that tort cases may result in. Of course, this has been recognized by the courts as a concern for many, many years. The basic idea is that socially useful but dangerous things are acceptable, as long as their danger does not outweigh their social utility. The courts simply attempt to balance them. Excess in either direction is not desirable.
You'd probably do really well to at least talk to an actual tort lawyer rather than the made-up ones in your otherwise empty head. It might do you good.
Nuff' said.
And I am a engineer BTW.
Everybody knows that we are the evil boys, making noise with deadly toys.
If the article says one thing and reality reflects another, then the article is wrong. I am a USGS contractor (the USGS is part of the DOI) and we were forced to cut our Internet connection at approximately 2:30 this afternoon. We have nothing to do with the BIA. Furthermore, our operations rely very heavily on Internet connectivity (customers order products online and can retrieve them via FTP.) This is going to have a huge negative impact on our facility and our customers, and we are not even remotely related to the BIA (not to mention the fact that we have a very secure and robust firewall.)
Trust me on this one. But if you don't, try to connect to the DOI homepage if you don't believe me. By the time you read this, connectivity may be restored; we were hoping that the court order might be rescinded overnight. But rest assured that as of right now (12:56 AM Central Time) the entire Department of Interior is offline, regardless of what some article says.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Folks, this is not rocket science. The easiest way to determine if the DOI is on the net or not is to try to connect to the DOI homepage itself. As of this moment (1:00 AM Central time), the entire DOI is off the net. It's not just the BIA or the agencies and sites directly related to it. It's the entire DOI. I am a DOI contractor and I can assure you that our facility (which has nothing to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs) was most certainly yanked off the net this afternoon, and it remains off the net.
This is really causing pandemonium at our workplace. We cannot access our electronic timesheets because the server is external to our network, and as a result, I've just finished filling out my timesheet from home (because otherwise, it's not going to get done.) The silly part of it is that the facility that I work at has quite robust security, and yet we were still forced offline. This is not an "intelligent decision." This is a knee-jerk reaction that is going to end up inconveniencing a lot of people that have paid a lot of money for Earth science data. It's going to cost the government (and, as a result, you, the taxpayer) a lot of money.
By the time you read this comment, the whole issue may have been rendered moot; there was some hope that the court order might be rescinded overnight. If the order was rescinded and you are able to connect to the above links, then I'm glad (because I'll be able to do my job tomorrow.) But rest assured that the entire DOI lost network connectivity this afternoon. This is judicial idiocy, plain and simple; there is no more diplomatic way to put it.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Did the judge order the entire DOInet down? No, not if that /direct quote/ from the decision is right. If the DOI pulled everything down, that's their own lookout. Stupid? Perhaps. But don't point the finger at the judge for that.
Peace,
(jfb)
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
To get success, you have to hire just enough good people, pay them well enough that they don't have to worry about the bills, and help them build a success-centered culture. Well-paid people with practically guaranteed jobs who go on strike do not constitute such an organization.
OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me. I do not -- and would *never* -- collude with my fellows to put clients/employers in a position where they have to knuckle under to me or go out of business.If those teachers in NJ were truly not being paid enough, they could go into business for themselves and people would line up to pay them better.
I swear, this is the last I'm posting in this thread.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
it's not what they pay, it's who pays them. It's pretty easy to pay them a high wage when you can expect half back.
OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me.
"If the market lets me" is a key part of why teachers need good union representation. Ever try to look for a decent teaching job mid-school year? I can tell you it ain't no fun. There is far less fluidity in the education market than in engineering. What if you only had one window of opportunity to change jobs in any calendar year? That cube would start to feel even more confining than it already does.
Also, you may not be able to move as easily as people in other professions. The market is limited by government regulation. Certification rules vary. Do you need a different license to be a geek in a different state? I didn't think so.
Sig?
Sigue Sigue Sputnik!!!
OK, so Microsoft has a practice of hiring freshly graduated CS majors so they can begin brainwashing them early about what working at a software company is like. Fine. That drains the young'uns of real world programming experience, where inventing five new opaque binary file formats with every program is not OK, nor is obsessing over making Solitaire's shuffling algorithm O(N) instead of O(log(N)) worthy of a semester project for a team of six.
However, Microsoft's insular cluelessness aside, do you really think that the gub-mint Windows sysadmins languishing in some mildewy room in the basement of a federal ofice building are going to know what they're doing? Have you seen government salaries lately? These are the people who convert several 700yd runs of bare-pair phone cable to Ethernet using only a crimper, and wonder why they can't seem to get sustained 10MBps throughput across it. The lucky ones learn on Uncle Sam's dime and move on to a Real Job making Real Money eventually. Others just fester there forever, making technical decisions so horrible that others refuse to believe you when you describe them.
I worked for the government very early in my career. I was definitely clueless, and more importantly, we were insanely understaffed. Microsoft is huge and has "R&D" teams working on stupid crap like vibrating joysticks and general-purpose speech recognition - ever notice that EVERYBODY in your office wears headphones? Now wait until you have to yell at your computer all day just to get work done - meanwhile the government is busily trying to roll out Win95 to the last few field offices that still have 66Mhz Pentiums.
In case you are unclear, I'm saying that monopoly-funded hordes of inexperienced but smart and college-educated Microsofties are more likely to get a code something properly than an overextended handful of unmotivated, underpaid, self-taught recent help-desk graduates are to install it properly.
While I can see your point about uneducated judges I think it pales before the _bad networking_ and inept administration in this case.
"the dept of interior" is a nice distanced name for the problem. I think you have to remember your civics here.
A class action representing thousands of people over 100 years is in question. A Government Department is giving an American Court the run around and has demonstrated disregard for its own responsibilities and for the monies of the people bringing suit. A judge demands that these people's financial data be isolated from the web.
1) If this was your money, and it was being abused you'd sure as hell want it out the hands of whoever was abusing it.
2) If they are so disorganized that they cannot explain or do not know what systems are in question they deserve every thing they get. They have to demonstrate security and I think the judge knows that this is the only trustable way they can do it.
3) There is a punitive element to all this. Obviously the judge feels the court is not being listened to. Something terrible considering that this is a government body.
This is not just a curiosity driving the shut off it is the betrayal of a fundamental trust.
There is a door through which people are stealing money and if they cant be trusted to gaurd it the court will make them shut it and will reserve for itself the key.
Sounds like a great judgement. Encourages Network types to clearly map their overall network 'cause it must respond to the real world. Worth remembering.
Techies treat going offline as if it was summary execution. If the story had been how the department was taking itself offline to install the latest and greatest we'd be cheering.
Do you need a different license to be a geek in a different state?
If you're a professional engineeer, you probably do. I'm in Canada, and a Professional Engineer (P.Eng) must be registered with the provincial Professional Enginners association before he can use the P.Eng title or do professional engineering work.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Before every one starts jumping to the conclusion that this judge is completely out of line, consider this: The US Government has a track record of not keeping to agreements with Indians. In addtion, this would not be the first time the DOJ was instrumental in ripping off the Indians. The judge took this action to protect the assets of people whose money was in the Trust. After having their land and all their possessions stolen, they hardly need to have whatever remaining money they currently have stolen, as well. There are many people starving on reservations. The Pine Ridge (Lakota) reservation regularly receives charity from many sources. Knowing all this, and reading the article about the silliness of the DOJs counsel, would it not be better to consider that perhaps the judge is protecting someone?
In addtion, recently, justices have had very little bravery when dealing with large government institutions or corporations. They have deferred to congress with the DMCA and other laws that are arguably unconstitutional and generally not stood for principles against politics. Look at the MS case. As soon as Bush got elected, the case changed to a settlement. So, my question then becomes, should we not applaud a judge for being bold enough to risk a political backlash and actually fight for the underdog (ie. another marginalized group needing protection from the powers that be)? If we do not respect this judge, how can we expect considerations in EFF cases such as the Skylarov (sp?) case?
Consider that.....
Oops I mean .. communists go back in time to start unions.
Point stands tho despite my "leftist" spelling mistake
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
if this were my money/info, I'd sure be upset...
Well, it is your money. Your tax dollar at work and all that.
So you can start getting upset now.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Actually, it's the exact opposite of communism. Under communism, the teachers would be forced by the state to work in exchange for food and shelter.
Under a hardcore libertarian system, these contract-free teachers would be perfectly free to agree with each other not to work. They could continue not working until any conditions they chose were met.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
I remember about a year and a half ago, being called in to do some networking work in a department of a nearby county's office.
I found that the system I was in front of was primarily used to process permits for construction and the like within that county. It was open to the Internet (I did a full, nasty, in-your-face port scan and nobody blinked) and the hard drive was shared - to the world!
I was able to connect to the HD via SAMBA, from my HOME WORKSTATION! I bitched, complained, sent letters. They paid a consultant company something in the 6 figure range to do a "security survey" - and they recommended replacing the POP3 servers with MS Exchange!
I gave up, having other profitable ventures to go for.
But, do you think this doesn't happen like ALL THE TIME?!?!?
People, this is GOVORNMENT!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
As far as P.Eng's go, I stand corrected. I confess was thinking more along the lines of software and such.
Just curious, but are the registration requirements very different in different provinces?
Sig?
Sigue Sigue Sputnik!!!
Imagine you are one of the senior people in the DOI, high enough that its your head on the plate in a contempt hearing. The law says "pull those computers now", but nobody knows which computers that means, or who to ask to find out. Anyway, all you know about computers is how to use Word and Powerpoint on your laptop.
You could issue an order saying "any computer with access to Indian data must be taken down now", but you also know three other things:
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
MS buys, borrows or steals the software, and then hires clueless programmers to write fixes, add-ons and what amounts to kludges to get the software to do more.
WebMaster:
BinFeeds
XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but
Ehh ... I don't get it.
Are you saying being 3/4 something can't be done?
halfbreed + fullblood => 3/4
Or did you want him to put something like 5/7 Cherokee?
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
The fact of the matter is, for what it is worth, the lid was loose on the elderly lady's coffee. She was burned. She asked McDonalds to pay the doctor bill for her injuries. They refused. She took them to court where a jury awarded her all that money in punitive damages. These are damages designed to make an example of the offense. In this case the jury said it was wrong to burn an old lady with a poorly capped hot cup of coffee and then refuse to pay the medical bills. I wish it wasn't so late and that I could have posted this when someone would read it. Check out http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/universalsoldierthe return/73.html.
Success without humility is an indulgence in arrogance
I'd love to see the law changed so that punitive damage awards go to charity. Half the time the plantiffs in these cases claim the money isn't the point...well now that will be true. I guarantee you it will reduce idiot lawsuits, as there won't be a lottery ticket for ambulance chasers.
By the way, my favorite retard liability lawsuit is the old lady that popped herself in the eye after twisting the cap of a 2 liter 7-Up bottle with a pipe wrench. She won millions, of course.
Sorry, but why should a teacher - in charge of tomorrows people - make much less (which seems to be what you're implying) than an electrical engineer?
Did you go to school for THAT much longer?
Is your work THAT much more difficult?
Is your work THAT much more important?
Some may argue that the teacher's work is more important than yours, but whatever.
"... IBM. Most likely just a poor implementation...." Why is it assumed that any other companys software is more secure that Microsofts? Trust me, a good bit of IBM's mainframe DBMS is just not even remotely close to secure..
All websites that use Windows should be ordered offline as they are so insecure and their insecurities hurt other websites, as demonstrated by the Code Red virus.
I can never understand why so many companies still use Windows as a Web server despite the constant security breaches and viruses.
I remeber reading recently that despite Windows being used by approximatly 40% of websites, it is the OS in question during about 95% of security breaches.
f.
Where I used to work, if we needed any fixes/etc. done on our prototype bread boards, we were at the mercy of the Union Techs. If we (God forbid) fixed something and they noticed, we'd get written up by the techs. Sorry.. Getting written up was less of a pain then not meeting schedule for a engine control for the US Air Force.
UPS Sucks
The question isn't whether or not the courts should have this much power, but rather, why don't they wield this power more often. If you ignore the whole Networking/Microsoft part of the story, I know it's hard, your left with the Judicial Branch preventing the Executive branch from violating its citizens' constitutional right to privacy. It's checks and balances all the way. And it kinda feels nice to see the courts finding in favor of the people for once.
Now if every insecure network with private data on it was forced offline...
Cache Rules Everything Around Me
The Judge was acting on behalf of the individuals this orginization purports to SERVE, thats right SERVE, The American Indians were the ones asking for it to be shut down. The Goverment serves the people PERIOD, The fact that they atually dont care about them is a different case entirley. The goverment CANNOT harm or through inaction allow harm to be done to its citizens, if it will not voluntarily do this then the Judicial Branch is a last resort, and guess what , it worked. If Social Security or the IRS computers were WIDE open and the Govt wasnt doing anything about it how long would it be before a Judge ordered that shut down ?
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You would think that all these new laws would have put an end to this silliness, I guess new laws are needed.
.. whatever)?
Should'nt the court investigator be arrested under the DCMA or something for hacking (bypassing security
Governments doing business usually are bad at both.
I love this US vs. THEM mentality.
I believe Rodney King said it best..."Can't we all just get along?"
Since any monetary damages would be, well, *your* money, taxpayer money, it's good to see the judge actually do something that makes them uncomfortable.
I've been a government contractor and I know how it is when some PHB (pointy-haired bureaucrat) demands that she be able to access a system without a password. These people need a good bitchslap.
I applaud this.
--
Now can somebody tell me why Native Americans are governed by the Dept. of the Interior as though they were deer or pine trees?
-- My Weblog.
I wouldn't count on this check too much. The U.S. supreme court ruled that $cientology "religious schooling" couldn't be a tax write-off.
The IRS ignored them, and gave one specific religion a sweetheart deal. Up until now, this hasn't generated more than raised eyebrows. (And the tax courts have been brushing off anyone from other religions who wants equal treatment.)
Those checks only work when there's the will to enforce them.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie Make sure you make it with the shiny-side out, and protect your pets too! :^)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Speaking as somebody married to a state employee, one thing you may not be aware of that while public employees have to pay Social Security tax like everyone else, but are not allowed to collect any benefits. The "theory" is that because public employees have pension funds, if they received social security benefits they would be "double-dipping".
Strictly speaking, they are not paying taxes that somebody else doesn't have to pay, but because they are legally excluded from benefiting from this tax they must save relatively more money towards their retirement than somebody with a private sector pension.
Another thing you probably don't realize if you don't have kids is that in many if not most districts, classroom supply budgets are far too low and teachers have to make up the difference out of their own pockets. Chances are you can get your company to supply you with all the equipment you need, so this is another reason why (in addition to regional differences) that 57K doesn't go as far for a teacher in NJ as it does an engineer in the midwest.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
God damn it I just can't win. I'm a 6th, 7th and 8th grade computer teacher. I spent a healthy dose of time making up a "web quest" for my 6th graders on fire breaks, fire-safety tips, wild fires, and and national fire plans. It's an interdisciplinary unit on the above. For those who don't know, a web quest involves going to a specific website and answering specific questions about the site. Guess where the majority of my URL's point? Guess when the principal is coming in to evaluate me? Today, Now, not all URL's point to interior sites, some go to site that are still up, but oy! This is a guy (the principal) who excitedly came in to my office and told me "hey! did you you know you could do PRESENTATIONS on powerpoint?!" grrrrrr. oh well. In case I'm off-base here (wouldn't be the first time) Here are the specific URLS http://www.fireplan.gov http://www.firewise.org http://www.nifc.gov/stats/wildlandfirestats.html http://www.nifc.gov/preved/protecthome.html http://www.fema.gov/kids/brenner.htm I know some of these work...but who the hell is this judge to screw up my 6th grade class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh well. -Bill MacKenty
Obviously, the teachers in your area were paid more than they were worth (hence the grammatical bankruptcy of your post).
There has been a lot of gnashing of teeth related to the cost of living in NJ - as a Manhattan resident and former NJ resident, I feel like I should weigh in: The vast majority of NJ is _NOT_ an expensive place to live, probably on average with the rest of the US. There are certainly luxury developments attached to the NYC commuting arteries that are priced almost as sky-high as Manhattan itself (but then, why would a NJ teacher need to live in such an area?).
Now, let's get a little perspective: These teachsers, who make an AVERAGE of $56,000 annually (newbies surely make less and the experienced teachers are definitely making more) are striking in explicit defiance of a judge's order. For what exactly are they striking? What amounts to a _three_hundred_dollar_ decrease in their annual incomes. They are striking to make a point to newly elected political leaders in New Jersey: "Step back! This is a Workers' Paradise and WE are running the show!" Unions are vile bastions of socialism and teachers' unions are the worst of all - stifling education by ensuring that even the least competent teachers are retained and promoted.
FWIW, I do agree that teachers are generally underpaid - my mom is a primary school teacher in VA and makes less than $30k. However, I think that the root cause is the fact that we get so little for our dollar from the educational system... Urban crime is a direct result of poor parenting and even poorer education. If we paid for performance instead of longevity and/or credentials, we might get our money's worth.
In cases like these, the law also usually tries to balance off the power given to the employer by requiring that the management of a public agency bargain in "good faith".
This means they must make honest and sincere effort to reach a reasonable bargain. They are not supposed to take advantage of the fact the employees aren't allowed to strike in order to drive a harder bargain, or to prolong the status quo (for example to effectively cut salaries by freezing in pre-inflation figures). Making offers that are purely intended to put the employees in an untenable position is bad faith. Management is obligated to negotiate in a way that realistically will lead to an agreement.
The problem with this theory is that the employers have a simple burden of proof -- it is a matter of objective fact whether the employees are striking or not. On the other hand, the employees have to prove that the political appointees that are negotiating this have no sincere intent to come to a mutual agreement.
Personally, the fact that teachers are willing to go to jail rather than accept management's "offer" is prima facia evidence that management's offer is wildly unrealistic. Either management is incompetent, or it is negotiating in bad faith. if I were the judge, I would take a Solomonic approach: throw them all in jail -- the teachers and the political appointees. Let them out when they have negotiated a contract.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
But to shut down everything?
Couldn't the order have been more narrowly tailored to protect the Indian's trust data without knocking out many important services? The USGS, in particular, provides critical mapping resources used by private industry, state and local governments.
While the DOI may have been recklessly negligent with the Indian data, somehow this smacks of judicial power tripping.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
There needs to be a moderation category of "OT -- but insightful".
Personally, I think it is the government that is screwing the Indians, based on what has been up until recently a widely held racist denigration of Indian rights, followed by indifference and lack of motivation to fix things.
Your view of the American Revolution is absolutely spot-on.
There's a famous portrait of Paul Revere that tells this story, if you know how to read it (see this link). Colonies were there to be sources of raw materials and markets for finished goods for the benefit of politically connected corporations. Revere's holding a silver teapot that he's presumably just made, and he's scratching is jaw as if he's weighing its quality. On the other hand, he's looking the viewer in the eye with a rather pugnacious expression. I think he's weighing the the value of British rule and finding it wanting.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'm sorry for the anonymous post, I'm sorry for the pessimism, but the only thing that's going to come of this is money changing hands. The people in charge of the oversight committee are dirty as hell. They hit the news in Utah every 2-3 months for some 'other' scandal, but nothing ever seems to come of it.
How bad is it? Do you all remember the SLC Olympics scandals? That didn't make the nightly news. Only after it made national news did the local stations run it, and then, only as a novelty (Look everyone! we made national news!). The scandal to the world was barely a sideline to the consitituents of these men.
A) If this were a Communist country, there would be no need for anyone to have more money, thanks to strict price controls and the fact that everything is run by the State. The desire for more money is a result of Capitalist economics, not to mention our country's obsession with consumerism. Not to mention, a Communist country would probably crack down a lot harder on anyone attempting to go on strike than our country does (yes, I know, we threw them in jail... but can you imagine what would have happened in China?) So this has nothing to do with Communism. (And here I thought the rhetoric of union members being Communists went out with the Cold War; apparently, I was mistaken.)
B) The price of living in the Northeast is MUCH higher than in the Midwest. I know this, because I have lived in both. $56k went a lot further when I lived in Indiana than it does up here in Massachusetts. Unless you are living in Chicago, in which case, it becomes a lot closer. So $56k isn't as much as it seems like, especially if they have families to take care of.
It's clearly not his fault that the DOI decided to pull the plug on everything, as outlined here:
h ow full.asp?ID=pol01/1272001-1
http://www.indianz.com/SmokeSignals/Headlines/s
In response to a federal judge's concerns about computer security, Assistant Secretary Neal McCaleb has ordered a nationwide Internet shutdown that has had the unwanted effect of putting critical operations at a virtual standstill, Bureau of Indian Affairs officials and employees said on Thursday.
According to an internal memorandum signed by McCaleb, all regional officials were told to verify that "all computers have been disconnected" from the Internet. Any employee who "attempts to circumvent" the directive by going online would face termination, stated the document.
Issued on Wednesday, the decision came after U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth said trust assets belonging to 300,000 American Indians were in danger of being hacked by malicious users. In an order of his own that was protested by a government lawyer, Lamberth told the Department of Interior to cut Internet service to systems housing individual Indian trust data and computers with access to that data.
But a number of BIA directors and superintendents have questioned McCaleb's reaction, saying it "doesn't make sense." By removing Internet capabilities from every agency and office, tasks not related to the Individual Indian Money (IIM) trust -- such as e-mail and payroll for employees -- have been shut down, they said.
Poindexter
First of all, I am pro union. I have a teacher buddy whose school has no union. He is required to work the concession stand at EVERY sports event hosted by the school for no extra pay: football, basketball, baseball, volleyball, track and field. He doesn't make 56K, either. Without unions, employees are abused to no end.
On the other hand, I had the great misfortune of knowing a large number of education majors at my old University. There were certainly some bright people, but many of the rest were frightening. I do not want someone who factors 19 into 10 and 9 teaching sixth grade math to my kid! This is the exact opposite problem: the tables are turned and the union abuses the employer. Incompetent people with untouchable job security and unreasonable pay.
Your average engineer may or may not be socially backwards or lacking in common sense. But they tend to be much smarter than the average teacher. I'd rather have that electric engineer teach my kid basic math than someone who would have been better off working at a hair salon.
Yes, absolutely, a Federal Judge should have this much power. It's one of the best checks against the possibility of tyranny.
Just remember this when some hung over judge from South Dakota orders the whole Internet shut down because, say, it's not all that hard to "repeatedly access, modify, and even create data" for AOL accounts.
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Nothing to do with the 4th Amendment, which guarantees, among other things, our right to be free of unreasonable searches or seizures by the government. If I throw you up against the wall and frisk you, I haven't violated your 4th Amendment rights, because I'm not the government (or its agent) and the government hasn't violated your rights by not stopping me (it has no responsibility for my actions).
ICYC, the Survey surplused the last of their DGs this year. I've still got my old DG workstation I had used since '93 languishing under my desk awaiting shipment back to Rolla. It has dual 33MHz Motorola CPUs; my how we've come a long way since then.
MAC | A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
This, of course, is very paraphrased and second hand anecdotal, but still kinda funny.
Likely, Rand-McNally and other map printers use the digital spatial data that the USGS provides. And not just topological data, but data of hydrography, political boundaries, transportation networks, etc.
MAC | A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
The funny thing is, we've had those stickers on US machines for years, and it still happens, and they get bigger each time..
I think the ones that kill me are the Capt. Obvious signs. Like the "No Parking" sign in St. Louis on an interstate stretch which has no shoulder to park on. Half a shoulder at best, even my Merc Tracer couldn't fit on it. You know full well each of these warnings are placed because someone did it! Yes, that means the battery acid too. Not to mention some of the more humorous ones mentioned in vehicular manuals (see McDonalds vs...)
That might be a poll- stupidest warning sign/sticker that is actually needed...
Now, just FYI to some people, the McDonald's case is slightly interesting in that they had not in the past labeled those cups as hot, mostly due to the fact they used them for some cooler beverages. Given McDonald's reputation around here for order correctness (Last time, 1 Big Mac was 3 cheeseburgers, 2 nine piece Nuggets, and a salad. I'm still trying to figure the math on this one.) you never know what you'd get. So God only knows if she was going to get coffee, or if the beverage was hot (say it with me folks: DUH), and also what other various factors may have played in here that weren't even mentioned in the case. Note that I make no statement on my opinion on the case (IANAL), but I think both sides were EXTREMELY dumb in the handling.
We don't need no Net Explorer We don't need no Thought control
> it's irresposible because anyone could easily open my mailbox and find
> almost $3 of totally spendible money ready and waiting.
But that's not too far from how the government has handled these trust funds--assuming, of course, that the government was supposed to have sent you $3 Billion . . .
The history of mismanagement of these moneys, and the sheer volume of missing records (they don't know how much they're supposed to have had, who it belongs, to, etc.) is shocking, even by banana republic standards. The existence of this case should have scared of Norton from *taking* the job as interior secretary . . .
Add to that that the first rule of litigation is, "don't piss of the judge." They've done that in spacdes. And if you *are* going to piss of a judge with misconduct and feigned ignorance, this is the *last* judge in the united states to do that to . . .
hawk, esq.
So I guess this explains why links to the Bureau of Reclamation were duds on a site I was linkbotting yesterday....
I've seen other gov't sites go up and down all the time, so I had just chalked it up to typical fed. server instability at the time.
> And anyway larceny is the natural consequence of private ownership
Larceny happens under any "system". Playing semantic games to undefine private property doesn't affect the reality: there exist only people and things, and when a person uses something, they are exercising property rights over it.
Calling it "using it with the permission of the collective" is the height of folly and human arrogance.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
The coffee in question was received at a "drive-thru". In that situation customers want coffee to be very hot so that it is still warm when they get a chance to drink it. Refills are unavailable at the drive-through, so this is not an issue. Finally, when a McDonald's gives drive-through customers lukewarm coffee, it encourages them to drink it while driving, since otherwise they'll have to drink it cold. But this is encouraging an unsafe behavior.
So it's not as clear-cut as you may think.
Having powerful unions for teachers in the US isn't some brilliant idea, either though.
Boosting salaries to attract more competent people is in direct competition with unions as protectors of the mediocre worker.
Boosting salaries would only work if school boards had the authority to fire bad workers.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
> experienced teachers
You mean the high seniority teachers. Experience and quality of work have nothing to do with union pay.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
> Under a hardcore libertarian system, these
> contract-free teachers would be perfectly free to
> agree with each other not to work. They could
> continue not working until any conditions they
> chose were met.
In that system, the school board could hire permanent replacement workers since it's all supply and demand. The workers would stand outside the gates and scream "scab!" and we would all watch it on TV.
That is, assuming the schools were public and not private, another probability under "hardcore" libertarian systems.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
It's also been pointed out that the importance of a job has nothing to do with the pay rate, nor should it. If importance were correlated with job, then one of the highest paid jobs would be garbage man.
This argument was actually made to the Supreme Court in the late '70's, IIRC, where nurses claimed that their pay should be above that of the hospital gardener, not below it.
Mercifully, the court did the right thing and rejected this nonsense.
I noted that, five years later, when there were nursing ads for $25/hour and up (mid 80's remember) that none of the nurses complained when supply and demand was working in their favor.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
> A) If this were a Communist country
then we wouldn't be reading this because
1. Free speech is supressed with a clear conscience
2. This technology would still be 50-100 years or more in the future. You'd still be in a 5-10 year queue for a 13" B&W TV that would economically cost the state about $1000 and would only show state sponsored propaganda. Computer? That's the guy who whips up statistics about people dying in gulags.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Once again slashdolts miss the point. Read the history on this case and you'll understand. But then, when do slashdolts ever read anything that doesn't support their POV?
Have a day.
Mk.
What he was saying is that 5/7 Cherokee would have been funnier than 3/4, specifically because it's genetically impossible (it would require an ancestor with one or three parents, see).
Virg
The cool thing is that heads will roll because of this, hopefully the heads of time-wasting morons. Maybe new policies will be made to keep this from happening. Maybe your job and the jobs of other contractors will become easier as a result.
> Like the "No Parking" sign in St. Louis on an interstate stretch
Do not underestimate people's stupidity. I've seen people changing a tire in the fast lane around a bend in a highway.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Taking down the USGS site in this case just SUCKS. Their online river flow gagues are essential to many folks who use them to determine what rivers to paddle this weekend. What does this have to do with the indian trust? NOTHING! So why have they shut down access to stream flow data? Oh well, I guess I'll just drive four hours to the river only to find it dry...
Man some of the posts on this topic are pretty intense! People citing cases, providing snippets of past judicial rulings (relevant ones too) ... its like a mini-courtroom in here.
Maybe we should have a section called "Law & Order: Slashdot Victim's Unit"
I forget...are we at war with Eurasia or East Asia?
Malcontent is such an apt nick name for this author. Since when is the 'media' conservative? Perhaps he means that the media outlets that are conservative (all three, or so, of them) won't report on it. If he is referring to the dominant media outlets, such as NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post (har! like people *read*), ABC, CBS, NBC NPR, and CNN, he is just plain wrong. Perhaps the author maybe SO far to the left that the popular media -seems- to the right; something I find difficult to grasp. In summary, I don't think I could trust the credibility of the author because it's obvious they have such and extreme emotional bias.
Look, let's be realistic here. Most media outlets are not going to report it mainly because they don't care because most of the target audience don't care. One may be able to hope NPR could pick of the story; they do well providing depth to underreported liberal stories, and they do it very well. The reality is that our markets and our lives are getting more and more segmented. This will get reported in small outlets that deliver local news and to regional people that care. No one has the resources to care about all the things they need to care about anymore. Thus, there needs to be more power given to the people, so that the people closest to the problems can wisely and most effectively deal with the problems, with out offending the nations primary values. Given the libearal bias of the author, I would guess the author sees the solution to the indian plight as one that involves telling everyone the stories, hope for sympathy, and action from washington. I tend to be conservative in such matters because the unneeded and unhealthy consolodation of moeny and power centralized in washington *IS* the problem, and it takes away powers for normal citizens to positivly govern themselves and to fix (as opposed to placate) problems. And let me say, there is not a single media outlet that considers that a valid point of view any more.
About the indian plight: I grep up on or near reservations and I am sympathetic to their plight. But I also realize that each tribe has it's own unique problems, and that one can not generalize the problems of one tribe to all tribes. I sucks to lose a war and be a conquered people. Ask the scotts what they think of england... or the basque, or the palistinians, etc. But there comes a point where you have to decide to live with it, move on, and effect on the future, but living the past only brings regret and sorrow. However, often some tribes have brought their own sorrow upon themselves; it's not purely the white man's fault anymore. Many tribes have very dirty politics. Well, dirty for american standards, but normal for the rest of the world where bribery and manipulation are the status quo. Certian prominent tribes try and buy votes through creative definitions of what makes you a tribe member. Some prominent tribes say that you are a member no matter what percentage of your ethnic heratige. Most stop at 1/8th. But those others know that they will get more indian votes and more people on their side through such creative ideas. If you can't defend your idea based on merit, reason or the law, the idea can then be considered liberal. Such politicial games, only beget more games, and consolidation of power to overcome local powers, only makes it harder to use that power in the future. Some tribes have done very well for themselves, and none of those tribes are ones that whine or play petty politicial games.
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
.. a company like IBM to take a nice visist and show them the security of Linux and how easy it would be to move there site over to it, and have it back online without the judge getting pissed. (He might be pretty happy)
How can Microsoft *NOT* be blamed ? They created the Windows NT(tm) Swiss cheese security model(tm), who else is to blame ? Serious to medium security holes are being found every single day in MS products.
Are there security holes found in a Linux based app ? Of course, no one is perfect. But, we don't have insaine dead lines, and generally, have some smart developers working on projects, and of course, its open source. Which cuts down on quite a bit, and security issues are cleaned up pretty quickley.
At any rate, I think its time for companys like IBM to start sending out there sales guys to all goverment offices and see what can change.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
I seriously doubt anything substantial will come from the court case. For instance, it has been ruled by US Federal Courts that the Sioux indians have a rightfull claim to the area called South Dakota. It is theirs, by US Treaty the courts have declared. Are they being compensated for it? No.
It has been ruled by US Federal Courts that the Seminole Indians own a majority of Florida. It is also theirs by US Treaty. Are they being compensated for it? No.
It has been ruled by US Federal Courts, and President Clinton himself acknowleged wrongdoing on the part of the US, that Hawaii is owned by the Hawaii Indians, and that the United States annexed it illegally under international law. Are the Hawaiian Indians compensated for it? No.
I could go on but you get the picture.
I doubt that this court case will change anything in the long run. There will possibly be a few people in jail from it, but nothing will change. It hasn't in three centuries why should it now?
The legal relationship between American Indians and the United States is somewhat odd. I'm not a legal expert, but the basic idea is this: American Indians were treated as separate nations when treaties were signed with them. The relation between the United States and American Indians is governed by a bizarre patchwork of individual treaties signed during the 18th and 19th centuries. In theory, an American Indian tribe with a treaty doesn't have to answer to anything except the treaty. In practice, these powers were extended and abused by the U.S. government in the 19th century, and the way American Indian affairs are handled is still bizarre compared to the government's relation to almost everything and everyone else.
The right to sign treaties is, of course, reserved to the federal government (U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 10). In addition, Section 8 gives the federal government the right to "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes". Therefore, nearly everything involving American Indian tribes is under federal jurisdiction one way or another. Chapter 25 of the U.S. Code is titled simply "Indians". This includes laws about American Indian finances are handled, so that, for example, some kinds of tribal funds have the protection of the federal government. In theory, this is so that random idiots can't run off with the tribe's (or "nation's") money. (Unfortunately, as one can see from this Slashdot article, the Bureau of Indian Affairs is somewhat less than competent.)
So the short story is: Almost all American Indian tribes answer directly to the federal government, by treaty. This is also why native reservations aren't subject to state laws or state taxes.
...Fine! We're going to take our toys and play somewhere else then!! (pout, pout) In othere words, just another normal day in the government. Same ol' manipulation games. "If we can't have it our way, then we'll just stop everything and blame it on the judge." I once saw this hidden-agenda, passive-agressive, move played out very succesfully. Washington State University was going to get a budget cut. In desperation, they paid a few debate team members to drive to Olympia and help make their case to the state legislature (I knew these students). Being the good WSU students they were, they spent most of the money and time on having a wild drunken parties. They drove there hours before the hearing with barely enough time shower. Everyone during the hearing was spouting off about how important education is and how good of a school WSU is, blah, blah. One of the debaters decide to take a different approach. He said, "Look, you (the legisature) are going to keep hearing all sorts of wonderful lies about the college all day long. So I won't bore you more with such nonsense. That's not the point here. The point is that if you cut the budget, WSU will then change the budget so that non-important and unheard of programs will get more money and important and prominent programs will be made to suffer so they can blame you and ask for more than they are going to get with out this cut. Thus, you look like the bad guys for hurting education and they always look like the good guys by 'fighting' for education. It would save you more time, money and popularity if you give up the idea of cutting their budget and only challenge them when they ask for increases in the budget." The WSU people were very uncomfortable in their seats suddenly, but the congressmen leaned forwared and paid attention. In the end, budget wasn't cut.
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
Why let the boss determine your work's value? You actually believe that he will give you the best deal? Chump. He's your pimp daddy and he will take everything that you will give, and give you shit in return. This is about power, and he has more power than you do alone. But in solidarity with other workers, you can turn the tables.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Normally, I do not respond to AC posters, however your post dumps so much dis-information into the /. channel, and we don't want to ruin young minds, SO, proceeding with the following assumptions;
/. handle. Which demonstrates that you don't even believe your own lies and that's what causes you to resort to anonymous character assassination
1. That you are either an attorney or have some other close association (due to the fact the garbage that you've spouted is right out of the ABA (American Bar Associaton) Public Relations Handbook)
2. And that you lack either/both the character and integrity to provide even the minimal personal ID of a
I'll deal with just a couple of the most egregious pieces of disinformation you're sprouting.
TO WIT:
"On the other hand, whenever those SAME Americans are called in for jury duty, they're the ones determining the amount of the damages. Funny, eh."
Well, it would be funny if lawyers didn't routine seek to dismiss anyone from a jury with real education, most esp advanced sci/tech degrees or military service, all of which will be routinely be dismissed as potential jurors by preemptory challenges. Best way to get off a jury? Be an average American between 25-55, have some education and pay your bills regularly, You're GONE! SA, The OJ Criminal Jury The 12 Stupidest People in the World
"Furthermore, you're way off-base with regards to contingency fees. First, they're capped in many states, generally around 30%... sometimes less. Second, if a plaintiff doesn't want to pay their lawyer on a contingency basis, they don't have to! It is entirely the choice of the plaintiff. The alternative of course, would be paying up front, but a lot of people couldn't afford that, EVEN THOUGH they have what would otherwise turn out to be successful claims. Third, lawyers assume a risk on contingency: they can easily not get paid at all, should they lose. Or if they don't win enough for their client, they'll wind up losing. (plaintiffs paying on a contingent basis suffer no risk, remember)"
That isn't merely a lie, it's a STINKING lie, by omission. You forgot to mention the "plus expenses" part of that. The nationwide average lawyer's contingency cut is roughly 1/3 of the settlement/judgement PLUS EXPENSES, I believe in the multi-million dollar plus liability cases, it averages to around 42% of the take from their crime. You also forgot to mention that many times the lawyer will loan poor clients living expenses during the trial period, and then charge them MAXIMUM LEGAL INTEREST ON THOSE LIVING EXPENSE LOANS.....can you say, "Shylocking"? Factors don't make as much money.
Also, the cases are not chosen by their merit to either society or a group or by the actual damages done thereto. The cases are chosen by HOW DEEP THE POCKETS OF THE DEFENDANT AND HOW STUPID A JURY CAN BE EMPANELED...anyone reading this can go to Google and Google the publications of the AmericanTrialLawyers association and check out litigation strategies, there and elsewhere on the web.
Although you must remember: one of the GOALS of tort law, which has a lovely history dating back to the better part of a millennium, is to spread costs, and to put costs on those who can bear them. McD's can bear paying the plaintiff's medical expenses FAR better than she can. And McD's customers, should prices have to go up, et al, can bear the very widely spread damages even better.
i'm sure you didn't mean to, but you actually told the truth here (in a sideways fashion)
Corporations DON'T PAY these judgements, these costs are passed right on to their customers (twice, lost tax revenues from deductions from gross income for the Corp lower their taxes). Frivolous product liability suits exist because, lawyers can pick the pockets of EVERY PERSON THAT BUYS THAT PRODUCT/SERVICE of a large natinal/mulitnational corporation, Because they would rather settle a bullshit lawsuit, than HAVE THE BAD PUBLICITY...when anyone but lawyers or the government does this, it's called EXTORTION. It's legal when lawyers do it.
There are many good lawyers doing good work in civil rights, criminal justice and even class action where there is real harm...but the number of bottom feeding, scum-sucking, sub human, ambulance chasers robbing Americans by holding up large corporations on frivolous liability suits is LEGION...people like you, advertently or otherwise, are brainlessly repeating the self-serving lies that these blood suckers use to "ennoble" themselves in the eyes of the uneducated and unsophisticated public (so they can CONTINUE buying their Beemers and luxury homes, of course).
.......
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
They are not excercising 'property rights.' Rights are a fiction, simply a friendlier sounding way of saying 'power.' Your 'Right' to own property IS enforced by the collective (unless you are a well armed gun-nut, but even then, I guarantee that some other nut has more and bigger guns.)
Our economic system is based on the idea that private ownership of resources is the most efficient way of allocation, overcoming the 'tragedy of the commons.' Most efficient, that is, for all of us, for the collective. If we, the people, determine that it is not, in fact, the most efficient or fairest way of allocating said resources, we have every right to ammend the rules.
It sickens me that modern capitalists have taken up the manifest destiny philosophy, equating this flawed economic system with devine rights. You theives have no 'divine right' to your plunder. Who do you think owned all of this stuff before humans came along?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
While I'm willing to concede that Microsoft may not be entirely at fault here, I'm not sure they should be immune from 'blame discussions' either.
Isn't this the same 'quality server' that provided us with such wonderful exploits as "Redcode", "Redcode II", "Nimbda" and all in the last 6 months. The same code that was installed by default on almost every Win2K server in a permissive mode?
Granted the Department of the Interior can't be held blameless if the exploits being used are a direct result of their carelessness, bad practice, and poor administration. However, given the such long standing problems produced by the not-so-illustrious team at Redmond (Can you say OUTLOOK? I know you can.). I'm willing to put money down that some of the blame should be shoveled that direction.
Perhaps its also a problem that the average installer of Windows isn't savvy about what they are really doing. The average Unix/Linux/etc is better educated that makes similar products, like Apache, much less problematic.
I guess I'm just trying to say that although summary judgement should be avoided, and trust me I'd LOVE to deliver a whole bunch of summary judgement on MS, I also don't think they should be ruled 'off topic' summarily either.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
(Ducking)
Lee
What is the important part about "property rights"?
It isn't a slip of paper sitting in a cabinet somewhere.
The important part is the disposal or use of the property as you see fit.
To say that you don't have the right to property is nonsensical because someone uses it; their very use is the exercising of property rights.
> If we, the people, determine that it is not, in
> fact, the most efficient or fairest way of
> allocating said resources, we have every right
> to ammend the rules.
Therein lies another error. My existance is not contingent on your, or you and a hundred million of your closest friends' permission to exist. If I need your permission, then I am not free.
People are trained from birth to believe in the Holy People, wherein that is merely an abstraction (via the vote) of might makes right.
Democracy is not what made this country great. Freedom is. By planting as the source of property rights "permission" by others you have created a monster whose actions are susceptible to the blathering of any of a number of power hungry individuals. The right to life, liberty, and property, and I mean the right, not the "permission" of some ghostly cloud of people out there, is what made this country great.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
So the $56k/year corresponds to $42.5k/year locally, and I *know* that's enough to live comfortably while supporting a family. So they're not striking because they're living in poverty or anything, they're doing it because they are greedy and power hungry. Typical unionism. So why is being greedy and power hungry celebrated if you are already a rich capitalist fuckwit but denigrated if you are a hard working teacher?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
About four years ago, I did some network consulting for some folks at the BIA. One of the issues that they were having was (surprise!) security. I made the usual suggestions (firewalls *here*, VPNs *there*, etc, etc).
Guy I was talking to said that this was the kind of stuff that they were trying to do -- but official Department of the Interior security policy was something to the effect of "The people of the United States have paid for all the data on this network. Therefore, any security at all is contrary to our mission. There will be no security." Apparently, this was their reaction to the fact that nobody had any idea exactly what data they had or where it was stored. They didn't want to hear about the BIA's "sensitive" data.
Sheesh!
Note also that the BIA data contains not only the financial and land ownership data, but also extensive medical and genealogical data.
Good riddance. Now, hopefully, they can go back and do it right. Probably, though, they'll just buy a decision from a higher court, or slap a "secure" sticker on the boxes and call them secure.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
It is us vs them. The problem is that a lot of "us" don't realize it and most of "them" do. Until "we" wake up to the fact that a war is being waged against "us" and that "we" are losing badly "we" will continue to get our balls in a vice.
War is necrophilia.
Your existance isn't contigent on me, sure. State the obvious, good way to win points in an argument. Freedom makes our country great. That should win you some points for originality, too.
Your freedom to do whatever you wants ends as soon as the neighbors object strenously enough, might makes right, sure, but if I do something that pisses all the neighbors off, why shouldn't I expect them to complain? And if I put up a fence around a pice of land that until I came along everyone hunted on, free of charge, and make everyone pay to come on my land, why wouldn't they object? Show me one piece of land that had a title on it before the first property-rights believing person came along and murdered it's original occupants. (not owners)
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
As an employee (and computer specialist, actually) in a USGS field office, I can tell you that it's getting really ugly inside the DOI right now. Cut off from the world and unable to do meaningful work, the behavior of our workers has reached dreadful depths. Today's activities: Belching contest. Movie trivia competition (no outside help from the IMDb!). Group project to wire a Handspring Visor to a cell phone. Discovered new pen pals in other USGS offices (internal e-mail works). Karaoke tournament. If this doesn't get resolved over the weekend I may have to quit rather than go in on Monday and face another day without the net.
Because captialism for the rich not for the poor. Somebody has to clean the toilets, rake the garden, walk the dogs and raise their children. They sure as hell aint going to.
War is necrophilia.
"LOL. Offering $560k/year for teaching jobs would attract the worst kind of gold-brickers and remittance men."
My god then imagine what kinds of cretins offering 560 million would attract to corporate boards. Oh wait a minute I forget only the rich are allowed to be greedy and pursue higher salaries the poor exist to teach their kids and clean their toilets. God forbid they should try to provide a better life for their own kids.
" OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me. I do not -- and would *never* -- collude with my fellows to put clients/employers in a position where they have to knuckle under to me or go out of business."
Apparenty there is no end to your ignorance. Go and read the article you idiot. They are not asking for more money. The school district wants to raise their healthcare premiums by over 100% and they are fighting it. In other words they are fighting to keep their take home pay the school district wants to reduce it. Oddly enough a republican judge is willing to throw them in jail for it too. How nice.
Sorry to inject facts into your delusion there buddy but somebody has to.
War is necrophilia.
I *do* see their point of view. Perhaps they should have done something, perhaps the policy change was unfair. But their response was entirely disproportionate. It was the business equivalent of a preemptive thermonuclear strike. And over what? A piddling sum of money that they would hardly notice. Foolish. It'll be years before they can even civilly discuss compensation again, and they destroyed a lot of public trust and the public will remember when appropriations time rolls around.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
Shut up. You obviously don't even know the situation. Educate yourself before you spout that "You're a bigot" wiseass crap. It just makes you look like a stupid yuppie cracker.
The increase was from 250 per month to over 600 per month. That's a 4,200 pay cut or more like 10% of their salary.
So basically you admit at this point you were full of shit when you claimed they were fighting for higher wages when in fact they were fighting to keep their wages. At least that's some progress. Now...
So according to you any employer ought to reduce anybody's salary by any amount deemed "small" by you and they should just sit there and take it up the ass because it would "destroy public trust". Once again this is typical republican thinking. The economy is only for the benefit of the rich, capitalism of for those who have capital. Let anybody fight for their rights or ask for a raise and they "lose the public trust".
Why should the public trust people who are sheep and roll over?
Why should the public side with those who seek to take money away from families of hard working people?
Why should the public disrespect people who teach in their schools and pay for school supplies with their own money (because republicans like you hate teachers, hate the public education system, chronically and underfund it)?
The public knows much better then the rich about how hard it is to be a teacher in this country. You might not ever talk to a commoner in your gated community but the public interacts with teachers and students every day. They know who is right in this battle and who is wrong.
More then all of that they know that they are next.
War is necrophilia.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
You mean you DO trust your MS install CDs ?
Ouch ! It has gone too deep for me 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
> Your freedom to do whatever you wants ends as soon
> as the neighbors object strenously enough
Therein lies all folly of mankind, all the way back to a hairy ape picking up a bone and clubbing his neighbor over the head to take his food.
Civilization is about removing that theft impulse from human interaction.
> And if I put up a fence around a pice of land
> that until I came along everyone hunted on, free
> of charge
Then the land belonged to those other people and you have no right to claim it. Of course, if it isn't in use, you do have that right.
> Show me one piece of land that had a title on it
> before the first property-rights believing
> person came along and murdered it's original
> occupants.
And the solution is to play word games that there is no ownership, yet still murder (or, in the powerful modern nation-state, simply threaten murder) the current occupents so you, cloaked in words of denial, can take control of the land (i.e. exercise property rights?)
Brilliant!
Pay no attention to the little man behind the screen. He isn't doing what humans have done throughout history. He isn't killing people so he can take their stuff and use it as his own property all the while claiming there is no property.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.