Slashdot Mirror
Microchips For Human Implantation As ID
securitas writes: "Reuters is carrying this story about Applied Digital's VeriChip -- a subcutaneous microchip (like the ones they use to tag pets, livestock and wildlife) used as ID for humans. They are radio-activated and would initially be used to store and transmit medical data via the Internet. They will be also used as tracking beacons and personal ID according to a company exec. The launch will be in Europe and South America. The company has made an FDA application and the FCC has already licensed airwaves for a similar device." We've mentioned this company's "Digital Angel" before, but there's an understandable sudden interest in such tracking technologies.
Awesome, now when you accidentally ask girls for their IP instead of their phone number, you won't be that far in the hole this time.
I think this is an awesome idea, but I think governments would abuse it the first chance they got.
If it was a short range device that you would literally need to be within a few centimetres then it would be ok.
If it was a long range device (of satallite tracking ilk) then governments would be able to track criminals, and people who can't help themselves (eg. elderly people). But they could also put it on say a political foe.
It is good with certain limitations.
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
I can vividly see a world in which it is mandatory for all people to have sensors in them. This day is not far off either. It will be introduced as a further measure for our "safety", but in reality it is just another advance of Big Brother as well as our loss of that scrap of privacy that we used to hold.
We need this device to keep tabs on all those subversive white people.
or, as in the case of Total Recall, wrapping wet towels around our heads may get pretty popular.
Forget the uses of tracking foreign peoples, now we can all track who buys micro$oft operating software. On another note, windows xp, v.2003 will require you to wave your hand in front of you monitor to log in...
Think about it, If such a thing like in the matrix were to happen, where machines wadge to war with man. They will win with ease if everybody is implanted.
Prof. Kevin Warwick in the UK had an electronic tag implanted in his arm as an experiment not so long ago.
So, the application for this would be prisons or instead of those tags you wear around the ankles for confinment within certain areas, they just implant you.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Unfortunately people seem overly willing to give up their rights and freedoms right now, however I'm sure if western governments tried to start implanting subcutaneous devices in peoples bodies to track their movements, everyone would wake up and realize whats going on and how ridiculous its getting.
in their present stage, these chips can carry about 6 lines of text, accoridng to the NYtimes artical, so right now I wound't be to worried about satlights tracking my everymove. But technology does progress, and while I don't see any danger at this present moment, I woudn't want one of theose things in my arm.
Sleep is for the weak!
This is just one step closer to 1984. What next? Cameras everywhere monitoring my every move? Am I going to get up in the morning and slute a cmaera and get my marching orders from big brother? This cannot happen. If you value your privacy and rights you'll fight BS like this until the very end.
OH NOES! TEH INTARWEB IS BORKEN!
This technology brings up an interesting alternative to the plans for a US national ID card.
If all foreigners were tagged as they entered the states, then we wouldn't need to carry our passports and INS documentation everywere we go.
Bars could just scan me rather than going through the process of asking for my ID and then searching through my passport because thay don't know where to find my date of birth in it.
This is such a good troll. You should have saved it for a time when it would have seemed serious.
Mess Stuff Up
I know I'm going to lose all my Karma because this is the "cool" "tech" thing to do, but out of respect for various religions and my personal beliefs I would die before I'd let them implant anything into me.
I don't know how many of you are aware of the beliefs in the Bible about the sign of the beast, whether or not you believe them it is important that you at least respect them.
What is wrong with having a card in my pocket with all this info? It can be forged? Well, couldn't a different chip be implanted? The possibilities of corruption and abuse to this system are endless.
On a technical standpoint, until they can encrypt it with your own DNA code it's not even worth considering.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Oh, just write it off as another blow to privacy. Won't be long before someone in the government knows where we are at all times and what we are doing.
I reckon the government read Slashdot, and they've come up with the idea of trolling the general population to help them spot the tin-foil beanie brigade. Short of announcing that the US military will now supply unmarked black helicopters to the UN for homeland security, can you imagine anything more likely to freak out the these-are-the-last-days, the antichrist is coming, blah blah wibble wibble types?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
These will be hacked easier than other forms of ID. So much for prevention. It may actually help them. They should start using combinations of biometrics as IDs.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
It's Here.Now M$ & the Feds will control your life,with a person having no sayso whatsoever.
Geek Hillbilly
This is eerie. It is jsut like that movie Demolition Man when in the future everyone had digital tracking devices implanted and big brother could type an id into a computer and locate you anywhere. It was also used for currency as well, allowing people to use their id to draw funds from their account. Man, this could have some really big privacy/security repercussions. For all the secutrity we will supposedly gain being able to track and/or identify people we will lose to crackers who find a way to hack these things for evil deeds. Not good at all.
Now I wish I hadn't picked up "The Mark" as light reading material on an airplane flight a while back. 6 lines of text is enough to uniquely identify everyone on earth.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
What would be the benefit?
... nothing more.
A central database of Retinal/Thumbprint scans can ID you just as easily. All the Info on your medical records could be stored in the central DB as opposed to in your microschips.
Unless...you could somehow control access to your own Microchips. I could see several levels of permissions:
Global: Person scans, and now knows that you are a citizen of the USA, EU, PRC
Business: Person Scans, and now can get your shipping and billing info.
Medical: Person scans, and now can get you vital medical history ALA 1st Alert.
All this we be predicated on you having a public/private key hand shake, similar to the SSL setup.
1) Remote machine requests permission
2) Microchip tells chip to grant permission (I have no idea how, I am just dreaming at this point)
3) Chip grants short-lived one time key for accessing info.
If someone tried to tag you with one of these against your will, I am sure there would be many ways to distrupt it: Wear a "Diskman" that actually produces white-noise frequencies to cover the radio from the chip...replace the implanted chip with a home made one that proves that you are someone else...implant a chip that compromises a buffer override in the scanning software so that if anyone tries to ID you their machine crashes.
In other words, business as usuall
Open Source Identity Management: FreeIPA.org
Every restaurant was Taco Bell.
I am very aware of reality, perhaps you need to get your head out of your ass, and truly think about what could happen, and the future. The future is what we make it, if we make it where everybody is "implanted", then we are under the thumb of somebody/something we cannot even see. Thus, we would never be free.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save him that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
I would think being a domanently Christian nation, this simple passage would keep such a thing from happening. Personally I think there is too much freedom in the U.S. to allow such a thing.
I hope I'm right
Gives the term "Intel Inside" a new meaning :)
Next we will have to have that logo tatooed onto our buttocks.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
As long as they make the chip explosive, I say go for it. Then I'll be able to erase that guy who lets his dog pee on my lawn.
But of course, I'll take the non-exploding kind.
I don't see this being a feasable idea because of the cost. If they try to make every citizen pay a couple hundred dollars to get this, noone will pay it. If the government tries to fund it, it'll be even worse because they'll end up getting charged out the wazoo and they'll probably end up running out of funding.
Pat
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
``Of course, we will do this,'' said Saffo of the Silicon Valley-based Institute for the Future ``And it won't be just for the functionality. It will also be for fashion. You've got a generation that's already piercing themselves. Of course, they're going to put electronics under their skin.''
I certainly hope that Mr. Paul Saffo is dead wrong on this subject.
First off, body piercing is NOT a new trend. It has roots in almost every other culture, and dates back hundreds of years. Just because it is a recent movement in Western Culture does not mean that every person who likes piercings is going to like having a tracking device in their skin. Not to mention that the large majority of people in Western Culture do NOT like body piercing. There is not direct link between the two.
Second, isn't anyone worried about the health risks of something like this?! Electronics are a LOT different than an inert, non-reactive metal or ink in the skin. Pacemakers cause enough problems with people in certain situations (microwaves, magnets, etc.) I for one don't EVER want electronics under my skin. I guess if it ever progressed to where you had to get an implant, some Rare Earth Magnets would take care of that problem pretty quickly.
Lastly, is this something we as humans really want to do for fashion??? If its entirely under the skin, how exactly would it be a fashion accesory? What, would they make the chips come in different colors?? "You cant see it, but mine is leopard-spotted!!" Unless they make them into actual shapes that stick up from under the skin like real implants do, they won't be a fashion accessory.
I'm slowly beginning to think the Luddites were right; technology could easily be the end of us. The last thing we need as a species right now is the ability to track everyone. Here's to hoping things like this NEVER get widely adopted.
From the USAF report Air Force 2025:
Ethical and Public Relations Issues.
Implanting "things" in people raises ethical and public relations issues.112 While these concerns may be founded on today's thinking, in 2025 they may not be as alarming. We already are evolving toward technology implanting. For example, the military currently requires its members to receive mandatory injections of biological organisms (i.e., the flu shot). In the civilian world, people receive mechanical hearts and other organs. Society has come to accept most of these implants as a fact of life. By 2025 it is possible medical technology will have nerve chips that allow amputees to control artificial limbs or eye chips that allow the blind to see.113 The civilian populace will likely accept an implanted microscopic chips that allow military members to defend vital national interests. Further, the US military will continue to be a volunteer force that will freely accept the chip because it is a tool to control technology and not as a tool to control the human.
If you really want to use a chip to help a patient, why don't they make an open product that can be used by everybody.. just put in the information that is useful: impersonal medical info (pacemaker, type of special desease). ;-(
If even I could read and control this information,
I would have no problem with it.
But why the hell putting in an ID? it has no medical use whatsoever... So the medical care is just false intentions... to put us in a giant prison
How about adding a couple of things to the human version of this technology:
- Notification. include an external circuit—perhaps electrodes at each end of the chip capsule—which would emit a mild electric shock to the wearer whenever the chip was 'read.'
- Controllability. Provide a handheld device with each ID chip which would transmit a locking/unlocking signal to the chip. When locked, the chip would be rendered incapable of transmitting identifying information (similar to the Pentium III CPUID switch).
- Information Scaling. Let the wearer use the same handheld device to control the type and amount of information retrievable from the chip. For example, on a shopping trip, the user may allow only demographic information to be read, on the condition that stores and malls which read the info will give some small discount on purchases in return for the information.
If I were guaranteed this level of control, and the control was personally verifiable, I'd have no problem having such a device implanted.Wait till there is enough storage in these things, data couriers anybody?
:)
Oh no, my brain is leaking again
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
I get one of those cool Total Recall style things to shove up my nose to take it out with.
How will the body's defence system react to a forign device inside them?
Would some people be affected by side effects?
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Bassically, what i'm getting at is these chips will probably contain a comlicated, encryptyed, and small ID number. When a person "scans" the chip, the number has to be looked up in a database for the appropriate info, like a credit or debit card. So... the only advantage (i'm not going to get into the big-brother stuff here) is that it makes it harder to fake who you are. However, It'll be hard to legistlate that everyone needs an implant.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
This sort of technology has both its bad aspects and its good aspects. In brief, the bad relates to possible privacy violations: your movement may not be so free as it once was. That said, the good aspects really are significant. First of all, there is a good side to being able to track peoples locations. If you lose a child, you would be desperate for this sort of technology! Determining alibis would be easier, etc. Another good side is a long-term effect. If this sort of device becomes more sophisticated, then it may eventually evolve into a ubiquitous computing environment. You bring your computing environment with you everywhere you go. I imagine this as being kind of like an implanted PDA. The technology for tying implants into the nervous system is developing and so like in many SciFi novels and movies, it is not unlikely that this could develop into extended memory and computation abilities that are indistinguishable from a persons normal thought processes. In an ideal situation, these things are really really good development... But things aren't ideal right now. In fact, the reality is that at least for the foreseeable future, our rights and freedoms are going to decrease. And almost certainly, this sort of technology would be taken advantage of.
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
how long before someone h4x0rz it?
"The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
Ofcorse, I have to be to be working in the computer industry.
As long as the chip uses a Microsoft OS, I'm okay with the chip. It will crash so often that nobody would be able to get any information out of it.
(Scenerio)
Police: Sir, I need to scan your ID chip.
[attempts to scan chip and fails]
Police: Uhhh for some reason, I am getting a blue screen of some sort on my reader. I knew they shouldn't have used Windows on these things!
-RickTheWizKid
I do think we need national ID cards. Right now with all our terrorist problems its really the ONLY way to know whos a terrorist and who isnt. You shouldnt be able to buy anything from a store or do anything without ID. However ID on a chip would make sure you dont lose you rcard, I dont like the idea.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Other news sources have quoted the company's bigwigs as touting this technology as a means for employers to keep track of their employees. I can imagine a day down the road where job requirements will call for "willing to undergo biometric implantation" as a prerequisite for the job. Those of you who simply refuse to believe the government will never embrace this technology should wake themselves up: Things we take for granted, such as driving, intrastate freedom, and higher education are privileges accorded to us by the government. Already, we are required to surrender our fingerprints, our retina prints, our Social Security numbers, and other personally-identifying data to secure these privileges. The government won't force anybody to be digitally tatooed: They'll simply withhold these things, these privileges, from those of us who refuse to submit.
This is dangerous stuff, more dangerous than Ellison's half-baked ideas of a national ID. People who condone, support, or otherwise promote the branding of humans as cattle (whether digitally or otherwise) are very sick fucks.
I want one that stores Mp3's
/. reader hacks it and mounts an 80gigger under his arm?
but the real question: how long before some
I can see it now....Linux ported to Steve
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
While I like the idea of a national ID card, This is too much.
I think we need a National ID card to fight terrorism, theres no other way to know whos a terrorist and who isnt.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
"Those who can give up essential liberty in order to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
WikiAfterDark.com It's a sex wiki, go now!
all those CueCat scanners.
In all seriousness...no FSCKING way.
what kind of mindless sheep would allow this?
Has anyone wondered/asked if all the verichip execs would have this done? Eh?
My puppy has one, but me? Hell no. I rarely get lost, can fend for myself and am house trained too.
The moment I start barking and piddeling on the floor, well, I'd assume I have "lost it" and perhaps it would be a good idea then...until that day..."they" can eat me.
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Unless this chip is implanted deep in he body at birth they will be removed, shorted, hacked in a matter of days...The thing to watch is when they start offering to parents to ensure the safety of the kids.... Those in jail are gonna get it, no question.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
US citizens. You should be required to carry the card everywhere you go, and use it to buy from a store, use it to get a job, everything. All without the card be questioned, their records checked and even arrested in some cases.
This would make terrorism from the outside almost impossible. Then we'd only have to worry about the terrorists within the country.
It would also solve the problem of all these illegal workers stealing jobs from us, and living off of welfare and so on and so forth.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Just think- if the chip will monitor what's going on in our bodies, won't it potentially be able to determine what emotions we're experiencing or what substances are circulating in our bloodstream? I'd hate to see the day that a group of people get busted on private property for one person smoking pot and subsequently small amounts of THC entering the bloodstreams of those nearby. On the up side, it'd prolly make a coroners life that much easier.
"I'm not Dev/Null, I'm a rock!" Dev/Null, from VtM: Redemption
I'm sure you all are familiar with the Biblical reference of a mark on the right hand or forehead, but in case you missed it, click here to see the most pertainent section.
/. for a list of "non-compliants"? Sure. That's why I posted as AC.)
The location is Revelations 13:16-17.
I don't consider myself a real right-winger. However, if this kind of thing comes down, I, too, will be waiting with rifle in hand for Ministry of Truth^H^H^H^H^H Homeland Security to knock down^H^H^H^Hon my door.
(Is there a possibility that the gov't trolls places like
Also, Futurist Paul Saffo had the idea that "As some people wring their hands about the invasion of privacy and civil liberty, a whole other generation is going to go, 'Cool! I've always wanted to embed technology in my body.' It's going to be fashion. One sure sign that teenagers will love it is if it terrifies their parents.' "
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
what happens when someone writes a script to zombie these things and uses them to DoS the whole system...
I heard a few posts back the argument that, while now people are throwing away civil liberties like so many empty Doritos bags, the idea of implanting a chip in everyone's arm would force people to wake up to what they're doing.
Not to sound like a doomsayer, but at this rate, there is no doubt people would accept these in mass if they were offered today.
Governments are notorious for their propaganda skills. If they started running flashy commercials telling America that this is the only way to fight terrorism, the lines for these microchips would be miles long. Americans already have a convenient unique serial number, the Social Security number, that could easily be put onto everyone's microchip.
I always thought Americans valued their rights, but two incidents are giving me leanings otherwise. First was the entire election mess a year ago. It boils down to this: Gore was the president chosen by the American people. When they put Bush in office, there was so little protest it disgusted me. The people made a choice, and the government said it didn't care what the people wanted.
Second, and even more shocking, was the lack of outrage over Ashcroft's comment a few weeks ago, that speaking out against the government is aiding and abetting the enemy. It's not hard to imagine Ashcroft adding "and aiding and abetting the enemy is treason, a criminal offense" onto the end of that sentence.
Will no one stand up and defend the rights we are owed as Americans? Or will this entire country simply march into a 1984-like hell to be started by these invasive microchips?
~q of course
contre.org. fighting crime since 1985.
Let's say that I contact someone while I'm at work, wearing the icky blue polyester suit. How am I going to read this chip? With a regular driver's license, I can take it back to my car, shine a light on it, see if it's fake, run it for warrants and license status, find out if the holder is a sex offender, and copy everything onto a citation or a field interview card. And if my flashlight and my car's map light quit, I can still read them.
Oh, and did I mention I can look to see if it's been faked, maybe compare it to one of the standard references?
With these things, no. I'm a cop, not an electronics tech. I've got no way of knowing if the signal is legitimate or from a black-market home-programmed chip. It'll probably take special equipment to read these chips, and I've learned that expensive electronics have a way of failing about fifteen seconds before I need them. And six lines of data leaves no room for a signature.
So, I'm not entirely sure about the practical aspects of this, or whether there's actually anything to gain.
And how about we look at the legal aspects. I'll admit that I haven't gone through either the Federal or Colorado constitutions with a magnifying glass lately, but I don't recall seeing any authorization for government to brand people like so many livestock.
Of course, I could be wrong about the Constitition thing. However, at the academy they did say that the parts of the Constitution that were written in the margins in red crayon didn't count.
But then, a lot of the experimentation with implantable ID was overseas. And in much of western Europe and in Japan, cops are expected to know aspects of individuals' lives that I don't even tell my parents. Like who's sleeping with who. Or who lives where-there are ways in the US for that information to be pretty much completely unavailable to police, but not in Japan or most of western Europe (for some reason, France, Germany and Holland spring to mind, but I wouldn't swear to that.)
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
I think its fair interpretation isn't a strict Nostradamous like prediction of future events as much as a metaphor for deeds and mind - hand or forehead. Pre-Christian numerology has consiered 6 to be quite an evil number and three sixes it very very very evil. So the verse is more about being under the control or being a willing servant of evil. YMMV.
whether or not you believe them it is important that you at least respect them.
Well if youre going to tell me what to do I'll do the same. Respect yourself by being informed of more than just the fundamentalist view of things.
There are real reasons to go against treating humans as well-watched cattle, but this isn't one of them.
Why is that? Are these nations more acceptable to control devices?
Example, the UK already has the worlds highest CCTV count and Europe's culture very orderely and controled.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
I guess everyone who has one of these will be unable to get an MRI (since it will probably have to have metal in it). For those who don't know, MRI's and pacemakers aren't compatible since MRI's user super-huge magnets for scanning.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. -- Revelation 13:16-17
We now have technology to make that happen!
too bad i don't trust the company i work for or the govt.
How is carrying ID a violation of rights? Now, you have to provide at least a drivers license to board a plane. Are your rights being violated? Boo Hoo!
Who cares? Why is this considered a violation of rights?
So what if you can be tracked. If you're a criminal, bummer.
What if you're buried in an avalanche. I bet you'd be damn glad to have a tracking device inside you then.
Really... the only people who object to this are those with something to hide.
Those who are found guilty of crimes DO deserve to lose rights. It's called punishment. It's called responsibility for one's own actions. I'm not a criminal, so I say, tag me, what do I care?
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Unless this microchip was completely nonmetallic, I would assume that it would set off any metal detectors in airports, government buildings, etc. Given the sensitivity of those things, you'd think that putting a mandatory amount of metal in a person's body would cause problems with scanning for legitimate weapons. If decreased the sensitivity of the machines so that they wouldn't be set off by these microchips, you could risk missing things being smuggled into the secure area. However, if you didn't increase sensitivity, then you'd have to hand search every person going into the secure area, which just wouldn't be practical. I don't see how this ID microchip would help ensure safety if it acts in this manner. Not to mention the fact that the human body would probably reject the microchip in the same way that it rejects transplant organs and any other foreign object. And then there's the fact that a good portion of people probably don't want one of these things in their body in the first place, but I suppose that part doesn't matter...it's for the good of the team after all...or something.
If the USA is stupid enough to do this, I won't stop them. I'm a citizen of the states, but as of late, I've been getting fed up with all the stupid shit happening.
I'm willing to bet that nearly all of the USA's best and brightest are getting fed up, too.
If something like this is implemented, do you know what I'll do? I'll move to some nice liberal socialist country in Europe, that respects my rights. I'll take my expertise and ability with me. I won't be the only one.
It's never a good idea to chase out your elite citizenry. Spain tried with their inquisition, and all chasing the Jews out did was crash their economy and end their empire. I see a similar future for the USA if they try this.
to accept the praise of personal wisdom is an affront to the very ideal i hold dear.
The launch will be in Europe and South America.
Oh, starting in Europe yet again? Quiet outlying areas of Poland, perhaps?
I will never take one of these things, as long as I live. Ever.
--hongpong.com
I think we should have a topic dedicated to my really important rodent lab :)
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
I don't support the idea of an ID chip. THAT gives me the heebee geebees in a big way!
However, how many people wouldn't mind having some personal uplinks or implanted chips in general? I'll ahve to say, yeah, I'd go for that. One frivolous use would be to read Usenet on the way to work on the BART. One not so frivilous use would be to be able to notified in a manner that is nonobvious to anyone else of information. No annoying cell phone call in the middle of a movie. Exchange info a lot faster, etc. :)
Day trading goes on unapparently. heh. heh.
The important thing, above and beyond all else, is that I have control over said implants. No backdoors for anyone - feds included!
Damn, if I won't need one HELL of a firewall. ;)
Do you know why the road less traveled by is littered with the bones of the unwary?
I wouldn't be surprised if MS and other IP industries are overjoyed at the prospect that now only registered (*cough*paying*cough) customers will be eligible to use their products via product activation codes.
The SSN is voluntary but to make it less so, the gov't gives a tax break to parents who register they're children. You'd think that Mom and Dad would put they're children first, or at least allow them to grow up and decide, but they don't. Same thing here, they'll just have some financial incentive for implantation and it'll happen.
Thanks Dad.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
This will be used to track and identify criminals, I work with some one who suggests that if you have nothing to hide what's the problem?
If we look back at the more aggressive governments of the past we find that some have made being homosexual or Jewish illegal. People like the nazis, or the state government of Tasmania, Australia(until very recently), but I'm sure that we can trust our governments these days to ignore the victimless crimes of today (A bit of dope here, some drunk and disorderly there), surely.
I can't help but feel that all the time there are reactionaries and bigots being put into power and all the time there are crimes on the books that aren't really crimes this will be a bad thing.
Yeah, let's just tattoo serial numbers on everyone's forearms!
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
...I'm moving to mars.
It is people like you that are responseblefore fore the creation of all police states . But as long as you are not a criminal and dont disagree whith the gouvernment about anything and dont have a mind of your own you you wont be affected . So i guess YOU are fine .
You will care when government start using those IDs for purposes other then stated. How many times FBI was spying for opposition parties by the order of US presidents? Heard stories about IRS employes selling individual's tax information?
Any power that is given to goverment will be abused some time, and this is the reason to avoid giving them this power.
Otherwise, you will end wearing video cameras that will record all you actions, movements and talks 24 hours a day, and passes them to gov. - just so that gov. agencies can be sure you did not commit any crime. Are you OK with that? Why, you are not a criminal, you have nothing to hide!
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
It won't happen in the US as we have it today.
My understanding of prophecy is along these lines:
1. Spiritual forces start aligning the nations of the world to be more united in government and religion -- the UN and others are working on this now.
2. The Church (all true believers in Jesus) will be instantly raptured and will simply disappear from the earth.
3. Shortly after that, the Antichrist will sign a 7-year peace agreement with Israel. He will put the finishing touches on the world government.
4. Halfway through that 7-year period, he will be killed and rise again, indwelt by Satan himself.
5. THAT is when the Mark comes into play. People all over the world will be fascinated by his resurrection, and wooed by his false miracles. They will gladly accept this Mark.
Times will be *completely* different then.
Ok if only US citizens get the card. That means only US citizens have the card, so those who arent are either terrorists, illegal aliens, or criminals of some sort. Or of course they simply lost their card.
Either way people without the card will be harrassed by the police just like you get harrassed for driving without a license. How many people drive without a license? Some, but most have them.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Now on the one hand, that means that most of you people here can stop freaking out. For once it's not America letting all hell break loose. However, I live in Europe, and while I'm not entirely sure who they hope to sell this daft thing to, it raises interesting issues (for me at least) to do with international travel. I happen to be a citizen of both America and England; so if I decide to buy one of these things, how can I be sure that the US won't illegally steal my information when I travel? Would it even be illegal? In fact, when walking through the airport scanners, might it get picked up and I would be rendered pereptually unable to travel?
It's all very well to panic about Big Brother and co., but do remember that this isn't actually happening in America (yet). And if it did, you would move to Canada or somewhere, yeah? :-)
Security through promiscuity is no better than security through obscurity.
This chip could be used to streamline all
financial transactions. Who needs cash or credit
cards anyway? They only serve to make you a target for muggers.
Just think, no more bank or convenience store
robberies. Illegal street transactions would be
reduced to barter. No more drugs, prostitution,
illegal sales to minors. Think of the benefit to
society. The black market could be completely
eliminated, something no free society has ever
been able to do, and at such a small cost! Wow.
I suppose if one doesn't have a right hand to
implant the chip into, due to a birth defect or
accident, one could always use the forehead.
Everyone has a forehead.
l8r
Aaron
Maybe this would be the catylist to start the long overdue second civil war this country has needed for about 60 years. Please adda forhead Barcode tattoo and even add public impalement of those that go against the current political party (ok so they are all the same really)
This country needs somthing to get the damned sheep we call citizens off our collective comfy chairs and do something.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The avalanche thing is about the lamest argument I've ever heard for this, by the way. You obviously have never seen an avalanche tranceiver. Of course, if you do want one of those implanted, just bend over. I'd be happy to shove it up your ass for you.
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
Thats right, you can only get a job if you have a national ID card. You can only buy from a store if you have a national ID card because you need the card to access all banks.
IF one card was given to every American. All who dont have the card are now suspects.
Its that simple.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
The Intel Inside logo (well, back in the 486 days) looked an awful lot like a red 6.
Ergo, if we have Intel tracking chips inside of us, and Intel Inside tatoos on the outside... And only be able to make sales... Oh shit... We're through the looking glass here people. Now that we've stumbled across their little conspiracy, all our lives are in danger. Yours, mine, even the life of the complacent and idiotic Joe Sixpacks out there, who will willingly and enthusiastically get this little red (now blue, as if that would throw us off the track. ha!) 6 tatooed upon their buttocks.
This terrifying New World Order that Bush threatened back in '91 is beginning to rear its festering black head. I'm not sure if we, as a society will be able to handle the massive upheaval, this horrendous expulsion of civil liberties...
Oh no, in my agitated state, I seem to have knocked off my special wave-nullifying helmet. Now FEMA knows where I am, and their black helicopters will begin their inexorable swoop down onto my location. I've only moments before the elite paramilitary units rappell through my windows.
SLASHDOTTERS! MAKE SURE MY MESSAGE IS SPREAD THROUGHT THE LAND!
Now, If you'll excuse me, my Kalashnikov and I have a date with those who dare edit out Article Five of our Great Bill of Rights...
Why is it when I hit ^R that ZSH calls me a cocksucker?
For my neighbour, that is, and with a simple modification: I want to be able to press a button on a remote control, and zap the bastard.
:-)
Starting at midnight last night, the S.O.B. started playing his car stereo at ungodly decibel levels. Pictures on my wall were rattling. And when I phoned in the complaint to the cops, did they show? Hell, no: not in the hour and a half they had to come by and experience it all!
So I want something embedded into this moron, that I can control. Swear to god, if he acts like a reasonably decent human being, I'll never, ever press the button. But pull another stunt like he did last night, and he can writhe on the ground screaming in electronic agony.
I, of course, don't need an implant. I never piss people off.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
How can you fake someones DNA? your DNA is in the card.
All your other information is in the card, all on a chip, which can be scanned, the chips data is totally encrypted so only the special government scanner can read it. IT also has a finger print, and both your family members names no the card. It tells your DNA makeup, a retina scan print, everything all on one card, all your history.
While someone can fake a card, and maybe even the chip, without the proper codes, and the information, even if just the DNA doesnt match the finger print, you are screwed.
Not to mention they can set it to have a random number which changes every minute and lock the card unless you enter the number.
This has the potential to be VERY secure.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
How about only congressmen have these (heh, then we will see how popular they are in congress)... then we could really see how often they are getting "extra-ciricular" activities with them.
Winter 2010: With Glowing Hearts
Will the terrorist ID cards have "TERRORIST" across the picture diagonally, like some states do with "MINOR" on driver's licenses?
Interesting juxtaposition. What are the most important things someone might want to know about you when looking at your driver's license?
The U.S.A. limits the rights of both kinds of people, but until this September, routine ID checks were only designed to catch one of them. Which one?
Now would be a good time to read David Deutsch's article The Final Prejudice.
Can't remember the site, but there was an essay I read awhile back. The author said that this type of argument is one of the most common, and one of the most stupid arguments against privacy. Come to think of it I think it was an article on PGP and banning cryptography. Though I haven't flown on a plane in a long time, there's no way in hell you'd get me to show ID just to get on. If I have the ticket, that's all I should need.
Bottom line is, it's not just privacy -- it's assumption of guilt until proven otherwise, which, mind you, IS in the constitution.
Model 551, Chambered in 6mm
Hell no, its not unhackable but its secure enough where no one will have the money to hack it.
Also, simple, add a number to the card which changes every minute, along with your usual password, the cpu chooses a random number. Now even if someone hacks into the system how exactly would you guess the number thats on the card, so how would you guess the number on the card if you need the cards number to access the data on the system?
Simple, the chip can be hacked, but even with a hacked chip and card, you can add security measures into the device which scans the card. My point is the government has more money than terrorist hackers and can make the information secure enough where it would take millions of dollars just to get info from one card. Kinda like its difficult to rob a bank but still possible.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Just what an ambulance chasing lawyer needs!
In Murphy We Turst
Shouldnt that read Dark Angel instead of Digital Angel???
This is nothing short of evil, complete tracking and control of a population, this has the potential to be more effective than organised religions during the middle ages...
I will not submit.
Am I warped in my mind?
Does it go on forever?
than be tagged... The first bastard that tries to tag me like this gets shot.
:-P
If the goverment (I'm Dutch btw) ever tries to force this or tries to force people into this by withholding "priviliges", the time will have come for a *#^%&*(%$% revolution...
So there
this on their unsuspecting masses. It certainly wouldn't be the first time the gov't thought it would be ok to test soldiers|sailors|airmen without their knowledge.
This would be alright for sex-offenders or other similar criminals, but not for the everyday citizen. It'd be impossible to tag every-single person in the US. What about the homeless lurking in the N.Y.C. subway tunnels?
I imagine the outcome of something like this would be similar to THE ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU (sp?) where the beasts rip their chips out
There will come a day when everyone has implants, including but not limited to tracking devices like this.
On the day they're forced to receive implants, the last holdouts probably will hear something akin to
"We are Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own."
as the implanters show up at their door.
I know this is a chilling claim to make about humanity's future, but it's the way I see things going based on ideas and trends now present in society.
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -- Dark Helmet
TV watches you.
KFG
I did not know that. And I suppose that there is no way to turn the device off either...
This will not help the fight against terrorism. We might get them here in the states, and most of the UN countries will probably use them. You think countries like Afganistan would use them? Perhaps we should try to help them get eletricity first.
If they become mandatory, I'm not paying for one.
I know who I am, and I don't need to broadcast that to everyone.
Intelligence is a matter of opinion.
In my mind, this makes the company that wants to implant these chips more terrifying than Bin Laden could ever be, or any and all terrorists ever known.
I would rather a 100 Bin Laden's than to have this become a law or to become anything close to the necessity of a credit card. Bin Laden can be stopped with bombs and guns, but how can you stop the governments of the world from taking away your life? Even if you tried to fight it, you could not win unless everyone everywhere fought back.
Essentially, if this became a law I would be declared a criminal for refusing or if it wasn't criminal, end up starving anyways as I couldn't buy anything.
I think people are seriously underestimating the kind of reaction that people will have against such a device. Governments would indeed have to force people to take these implantations.
There's one completely practical aspect of all of this which hasn't been mentioned yet. I volunteer with a dog rescue organization which tries to use the chipping technology to match lost pets with their owners. When it works, it's great.
But the chips, which are usually implanted in the back of the animals neck, can occasionally migrate inside the animal's body. Mostly they just slide down the back, but there have been cases where they just disappear. (I'm sure the chip is in there somewhere, I just don't want to find out...)
Either way though, if it's possible for the chips to move after implantation, I think the technology needs more work before we start putting them in people.
NO FUCKING WAY.
Blogging because I can...
"if he does nothing wrong, a citizen has no need of privacy." -Hitler
Thank you for reminding me of that vitally important quote. Note, this does not mean that all folks who want to implant and track are Nazis, it's simply that the Nazis developed a Total State based on suspicion of citizens, preusumption of guilt, and a vast network of internal spies. Hey, as long as you don't do something the government thinks is wrong, you're OK! But what if someone lies about you? What if the government decides that $behaviour is now illegal? Suddenly you're a criminal and we know where you are and we'll have your ass behind bars faster than you can say "first amendment."
As for criminals "deserving" punishment, that is only valid if the justice system works 100% correctly. But the assumption is utterly false. Look in the mirror and say "OJ did not kill his ex-wife" could you keep a straight face? I didn't think so. Then ask yourself why Illinois decided to give up on the death penalty until full review of all cases (hint: they were finding that a bunch of people were wrongly convicted). Finally, What happens when you have done your time and paid your debt? Does one criminal act mean that you are a criminal by nature? Remember, speeding is against the law. So is underage drinking.
I certainly don't want to live in your total state where forgiveness and reconciliation are banned. It takes a lot more guts to work with people who have hurt you, ask Desmond Tutu about the Truth and Reconciliation Comittee in South Africa.
"The conduct of neither [party], if strictly examined, will be irreproachable." -Elizabeth Bennet
There is no way I am getting one of these, unless they combine it with a 100 gig MP3 player. :P
John Brunner would have loved this.
wow, this is cool, i can't wait to sync this chip with my passport id, then login to hotmail.
A friend of mine said something about this about a month ago, guess now i'll have to beleive him.
"The United States has no right, no desire, and no intention to impose our form of government on anyone else." - Bush 05
Well.. they can implant all they want. All i know is if we get tired of it a short EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) will render this chip useless. Bring it on Big Brother!i
http://www.infowar.com/CLASS_3/class3_a.html-ss
`Of course, we will do this,'' said Saffo of the Silicon Valley-based Institute for the Future And it won't be just for the functionality. It will also be for fashion. You've got a generation that's already piercing themselves. Of course, they're going to put electronics under their skin.'
...
...
Guess they'll bring out Kenzo and Calvin Klein chips soon
You got to be kidding me
I am having a tattoo and a piercing, the tattoo and the piercings are by and for me. In no way I see a ID chip under my skin as fashion
I see it as a burning mark like they do on cattle.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
What does that stand for? Yeah, it is teh SEKRAT, but any guesses? The only one I came up with so far is "you have been there. you have lived. have a nice day." but that's prolly not it, hmm?
Its called the Mark of the Beast and without it you will not even be recognized as alive. No food, water or logeing will be given to anyone who doesn't have it.
"Really... the only people who object to this are those with something to hide."
And what exactly is wrong with having something to hide?
in each of the Taliban fighters captured. That way it would set off alarms at any airport any of them ever try to use; without the risk of expermentation of humans.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Yes, you are required to show ID to get on a plane nowadays.
You can be stopped by the cops at any moment and forced to present ID.
You have finger prints, which are kept on file, and some have DNA kept on file.
What's the big deal?
Anyway, it seems that there are many, many people who have this knee-jerk reaction "NO! YOU'RE VIOLATING MY RIGHTS!" to anything even remotely related to personal freedom.Really, unless you're committing a crime, why worry? And just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean that the government is going to become evil one day and decide that you're a criminal, track you down, and bitch-slap you. Get a clue.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Guess you own't be flying. You have to show picture ID 2 or 3 times just to get on. so what if you have a ticket? who just the hell are you?
Silly Rabbit...Sig's are for kids.
Don't ever use a Kevin Warwick story as a link unless it's this one showing how he's a complete fraud or maybe this one for a look into his thinking, or you could even use this one.
On second thoughts, just go to The Reg and search for Captain Cyborg.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
when i submitted it a week ago. Slashdot likes to wait until after everyone else has read something to post it.
People'll just get this like they credit cards or cell phones I suppose. Useless if only one person has one, but opens up a whole can of goodies|worms if everyone has one. It'll be optional though and even if most people have one there will still be people doing without.
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
Much like the System of a Down song... "They're trying to build a prison..." Though the song uses drugs as an example, the more I read about stuff like this, the more it seems like the song's underlying message may be becoming truer and truer. Keeping tabs on everyone, knowing where you are and what you're doing at all times, taking away your personal privacy... sure sounds like a description of a prison if I ever heard one.
Of course, there's always the people's right of liberty by opposing their government... but what happens if the government is able to brainwash the general public into siding with everything they say? It's already been pretty well proven that advertising is one thing the the US government excels at.
They will be also used as tracking beacons
Great... so now you can count how many people are in a building before you blow it up
Revelatioins 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
This
Having the religious right figthing the FBI with weapons makes this almost worth it.
Help fight continental drift.
This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it. ....Abraham Lincoln- First Inaugural Address, Monday, March 4, 1861.
..but I wouldn't submit to this, either.
Furthermore, if anyone ever insists that I do so, I hope I'll have the guts to kill the motherfucker.
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
My uncle has loads of cows in the pasture. I plan on just living off them eventually. Yet, we still have to pay taxes on land. So you would still need to associate yourself with the currency of trade in the country otherwise the gov. would just take your land. Also welfare would probably be out of the question becuase they would require you to receive a device to get that. We're allready required to get community water services. I don't know why I like ground water without the clorine myself. its a Grand time to be alive :)
-----
-Born in east LA i wuz born in east LA... j/k
The number of the beast. It's coming.
Let the revolution begin!
No tagging! Do not trust the government!
You are from Canada. This card will be international, meaning You'll get a card which states you are form canada and so on and so forth, a canadian version of this national ID card. You enter the USA, we check you out, you are from Canada, we let you in.
Its simple, in order to get into the USA, you need a card. You can get the card from Canada before you enter which has all your information on it.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
...31337
No, the people who object the this are the ones who think it's demeaning and improper for the government to assume that all it's citizens are criminals. Just as I object to modern copyright law and the DMCA because it presuposes that I will violate the law unless stopped, I object to this sort of national ID tracking and monitoring because it presuposes that I am a criminal. You can tag yourself all you want, if you're worried about being in an avalanche.
We should all carry the card not the forigners because if we dont, what about all the illegal aliens already here? the MILLIONS of them here now?
If all americans are required to carry the card we can capture them.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
What about civil disobedience?
There are many kinds of people that the government would consider 'criminals': Those who have really done something bad (like kill a guy), and those who do not agree with them. Maybe you didn't kill a guy, but if Big Brother sees something he doesn't like, you can bet your butt that you'd be tagged as a criminal. And if the government can pass this, it will pass other laws worse than this because everybody who disagrees will be labeled as a criminal/terrorist.
OK, here's the reason why this ISN'T GONNA HAPPEN IN THE US, FOLKS.
Institute something like this and there will be ultra-right wing Christian Militias, The Army Of God, Michigan Militia, what have you out in the streets with guns the next day.
You think that the tragedy at the Murrah Federal Building in OKC was bad? Just you wait. If the US Guh'mint even breathes a word of interest in tagging its citizenry, there will be fighting in the streets, more bombs going off at Federal buildings nationwide...hell, I would suspect that people who wouldn't normally be inclined to such things would take up arms without a second thought in a situation like that.
And remember...Duh!bya supposedly is an Evangelical Christian. Would he allow something that could be construed as the Mark Of The Beast to be deployed on his watch? I don't think so, folks.
This might happen in Europe, where religious fervor is not as feverish as here. This might even happen in Canada or in Central and South America. I could definitely see the Chinese doing this to its citizenry. But not here. Not in the place where the Bible Belt is buckled. "Mark" my words: it ain't gonna happen in the USA.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
my understanding is that its manditory, even if it is not though, is not as if you can get through grade school without filling out your SSN on a test or something like that. I remember my 6th grade year soo many years ago, and we had to put our SSN on tests, ofcorse, this was before congress decided that the SSN could be used as ID.
Well, if we used tamperproof hardware that ejected a burst of cyanide when a security breach was attempted, I can bet you there'd be a shortage of volunteers ;-)
(And think of how this could be used for crime control - how 'bout a small packet of sedatives, which, upon receipt of an authorizing signal, dropped the suspect to the ground.)
Think about what you could do with public-key cryptography. Build chip-guns that get their authorization by combining the gun's public key, the government's private key, and the law enforcement officer's public key. Only the cop can shoot the gun, and (if the gun transmits the user's private key, downloadable with a warrant) only the target gets hit.
Imagine a gun that shoots to sedate, not kill, and where it's impossible for the cop, no matter how incompetent a shot he is, to hit an innocent bystander.
(Hell, scale it up. Issue the warrant and use transmitters mounted on every cell phone tower in the county to drop the perp. No cops required!)
Guess who the next NT convert is - YOU.
I was thinking more of East Germany's Stasi and the former USSR.
The reason it didn't work is because it took too much effort (and too much resources) to keep track of everyone - when half the population is part of the secret police, and the other half is watching out for them, nobody has time to get anything done.
By reducing the effort required to perform surveillance, we actually have the possibility of getting the security of the surveillance state, but without the collapse in efficiency that usually goes along with it.
All in all, that just might work.
Rather than an implanted chip, I believe a simple number tattooed on the arm would be a more cost effective solution for population control. It is a proven technology, having been used in Central Europe in the 20th century with great effectiveness. There are, in fact, some people still alive with these tattoos who can testify as to their effectiveness.
YES, it will happen... not yet but some day in the not too distant future we will all be tagged and basic services denied to those who are not tagged.
Maybe we should all start planning for this already. We need to start creating communities that can exist independently of the rest of society... own power supply, water purification systems, waste management systems and farming. Time to start up a commune I guess.
You're Just Jealous Because The Voices Are Talking To Me.
In the mysteries of Mithras, those who were of a certain degree in the mysteries were also given a new mark on both places...the mark of Mithras.
There are tons of similarities between elements of both the old and new testaments and the legends of Mithras.
If you don't believe me, Google for "Mithras" or "Mithraeum."
Much of the writings of the Early Church Fathers were condemnation of Mithraism, a competitor to Christianity.
Many scholars now believe the Book of Revelation was less about a future time and place than about the persecution of Christians under people like the Emperor Nero. When you see it as an allegory of history instead of prophecy, it actually makes more sense. Basically it was a message to those suffering persecution under Imperial Rome. "Hang in there."
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Wouldn't work. What happens if/when a perp is driving at 80 on the freeway when it happens? You now have say 30-40 innocent people killed in a pile-up that was caused by the police's 'safe' arrest system. Can you say 'PR nightmare' ?
As for cyanide and other nonsense, again, it wouldn't work. It would only take 2-3 cases where the dosage is accidently released (stand too close to a microwave) and you have another PR nighmare.
Of course, they haven't thought this thru too well as it stands... You pretty much have a guarenteed non-vote by probably all jewish people, and most people old enough to remember/care about the 'ID stamping' that hitler did. Just about every politician fears the eldery's vote as it is.
They can implant my cold, dead body.
Slackware is not dead
Parents do what they believe is best for their children and for the family. It's hard to fault them for that, even when you think they're totally wrong and completely detached from reality.
A word can paint a thousand pictures
My mon was really religious and stuff and would always talk about "the end times" Im sure you have all heard one version or another BUT she said that near the end times, all people would be marked, either in the right hand or the head under the skin......too weird for me.
Actually, the trully sad and pathetic part is not that the elite would wish this, it is their nature and wise men should come to expect that by now, no rather it is the fact that in cases like this the 'fors' and 'againsts' will primarily be made up of willfully ignorant parrots that spew forth rhetoric without FULLY taking the time to comprehend the nature of the issue. I encourage everyone to fight this like you should fight any battle, with honor and courage. Don't stoop to the level of the bureaucrats and politicians by selectively choosing only those facts that will support your side, rather approach everything more like a third (unbiased) party with a more scientific method. Let the facts lead those that are logical and ethical on their own merit, do not deceive and conceive 'facts'.
Okay, that sounds preachy but I am really tired now, so forgive me please.
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
I think another good one is "you are SO independent and individual, just like ALL those other independent and individual non-conformists"
First people get used to putting chips with identifying codes under their skin.. then future revisions of said chips including tracking circuitry. Call me crazy, but I don't like the idea of someone being able to track me down by issuing a signal from a transmitter.
I don't mind the idea of implanted computing technology, I really don't... but said hardware runs tasks for me, like keeping track of e-mail addresses or subvocalised notes for me, and doesn't act as a mere storage repository. It's my meat.. it's my hardware.. I control what it does, not whomever implants it.
Proteus' Child
Doko ni datte; hito wa, tsunagette iru.
At the risk of making a redundant post, I'd like to make one small comment:
> Such radio-activated chips are already used to track cattle...
I think that pretty much says it all, right there.
There is always be death. There will always be criminals. There will always be those who disagree with the powers that be. There were always be terrorists. There will always be discomfort. There will always be backaches. There will always be stiff, aching joints. There will always be home-made bombs. There will always be thugs. There will always be police brutality. There will always be corrupt governments. There will always be secret socities of Masons and the Illuminatis running the world under the guise of democracy. There will always be disobedience. There will always be hijackers. There will always be unpleasantness.
... it took England getting bitchslapped the world over and its empire stripped from it for it to become what is now a model free society. The royal family are relics of what once was ... and as soon as those inbred twits die off, the better.
Trying to control chaos is futile. For every measure of security, there will be a new kind of crack. For every length of dictatorship and oppression, there will be a spark of dissent. It comes and goes in waves. Right now, the US occupies the same slot that we rebelled against England for having over 200 years ago. Now look at England: socialized medicine, a happy, respectful populace
The same will happen to the US. National ID cards, even subcutaneous implants will not stop the rising tide of Hungry Freaks. It is pointless, expensive, and thoroughly unwarranted and authoritarian.
But, much like Christians scare people with the idea of Hell into becoming raving lunatics (merry f-ing xmas, you stupid cultists), the US has whipped up the populace into a fit of nationalism with the threat of TERRORISTS! (i'm shaking!). Now we'll take any sort of rights-revoking freedom-raping with a big, sloppy, give-it-to-me grin.
Sad.
To all you whiny ass, knee-jerk personal-freedom crybabies... take this into consideration.
My passport and birth certificate were stolen, likely by a useless piece of crap crack-head who should be put to death on general principles. Until you have put up with the hassle of trying to straighten out your life and clear your name after your identity was hijacked and used to commit crimes, please, please, please, just go back to whacking off to anime and try think that maybe, just maybe, these Big Brother/Hitler paranoid delusions have very little basis in reality.
Thanks. Really, I mean that.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
It's funny that many articles concerning digital identification always mention September 11th but no one takes the moment to link digital id's and September 11th.
How convenient that a terrorist attacked happened and not several months later, we already have microchips ready to be implanted. Who is the company behind the chips... really? Who is behind the terrorist attacks... really?
People, especially Christians read the Left Behind (http://www.leftbehind.com/) and let they are willing to do whatever it takes to prevent these sort of "terrorist" attacks again.
People, especially those who call themselves enlightened, totally get what "The Matrix" was all about but fail to emphasize the most important line in the movie from the character, Morpheus: not everyone wants to be awakened.
So convenient indeed.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I will never allow such a device inside me. Period. Hell. Who's to say that we already don't have some sort of identifiable device inside us, implanted during shortly after childbirth..?
buy this company and offer the technology to the government for free.
That drugs and prostitution are leagal some countries. :-)
Here in Oz donating trips to the local leagal brothel is tax-deductible, and the workers are eligable for workers comp if they get hurt on the job
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
I can imagine my grandpa, sitting on his back porch, eating a salted turnip, with a copy of the bible in his lap when I tell him about this article. He'll say something like:
"Hmmm...sound's like the Mark of the Beast to me."
And then he'll open the bible to revelations and start reading...
Not being quite the religious man my grandfather is, all I have to say about this technology is:
Why do we need this? How will this improve the quality of life for humanity at large?
Let's put on our thinking caps boys and girls, how could you screw up the chip? Let me stoke the flames of thought:
1) Xacto-knife, remove chip, stomp... Butterfly bandage...
2) Magnet... BIG MAGNET. MRI?
3) RF xmitter on the same freq as the chips?
4) RF "trigger" on the read freq as the chips - trigger everyone's chip...
5) Counterfeit chips? Programmed with the ID # of say, JQ Public?
6) RF device - listens for the scan for your ID, returns spoofed info...
I prefer the term Digital Demon.
I remember having a...discussion..with a colleague about this sort of thing back in the early '90's, and his response essentially boiled down to"I have nothing to hide, so what's the problem?". I felt like asking him if he enjoyed being guilty until proven innocent. This nasty little device, ultimately, will probably be able to be tracked whenever and wherever you are, as soon as it', under your skin. It doesn't matter if you're "guilty" of anything or not, the PTB will be following you, like it or not! My colleagues response was something to the effect of the fact that the PTB can already track you based on your credit and bank cards, so why is this any different. I'm not at all impressed that I'm being tracked according to whatever financial transactions I make on either card, but fact is, I can leave said credit/debit cards safe at home if I like, and nobody really has to know where I'm going or what I'm doing if I decide to pay cash for it. As far as I'm concerned, having one of these things implanted into me would be akin to having a Nazi serial number tattooed onto my arm in a concentration camp, and, if they really mean these things to work, it had better be buried somewhat deeper than just my skin, 'cause I'll have it gouged out in an hour! Even if it was just the government I had to worry about, it's still too much, but if they would (will) allow whatever bunch of marketing subhumans to have at the data, in hopes of being able to sell me even more beer and cookies...you can see whewre this is going.
IMHO, Jefferson or Franklin of whoever the hell it was who said something to the effect that people who trade liberty for security deserve neither is RIGHT!
wtf? The U.S. is falling even more behind in getting new technology. Japan and Europe being ahead of us, I can understand. They've been ahead of us in cell phones for years. But South America? When did they jump ahead of us technologically?
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
LOL, this ain't the the mid 1900's buddy and troops are just as sceptical as you are. Actually, many of them are *more* concerned about government actions than you are because they experience government underhandedness on a daily basis.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Good thing I have some karma to burn.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
and if cash transactions are done through this chip, someone will slice me open to steal my money instead of just mugging me. This ID chip thing sure sounds like a great plan.
hilltop
This won't happen over night. I see other posters vehemently claiming they would "rather die" than have a mandatory implant. I guarantee you, it wont be YOU who will be forced to have in implant - you have grown up knowing that a forced implant is undemocratic, satanic, etc. To your children, however, the idea will not seem so extreme. To your children's children it will be nothing at all...
I imagine this taking a couple generations.
1st step: As in now: optional implants for company workers. Today, some higher up execs traveling in 3rd world countries, where ransoming is prevalent, implant homing devices in their bodies.
2nd step: Forcible use of implants on violent criminals. This will be met with little resistance, as it is accepted that criminals forfeit some rights by committing crimes. I say "violent criminals" (i.e. rapists, murderers) as they would garner the least public sympathy. Soon after, lesser criminals would be tagged - eventually anyone who commits a criminal act. I imagine this process as taking a decade or so.
3rd step: Certain perks for those who accept an implant; faster border crossing, airport check in, etc. Those who refuse "optional" implants face longer delays (and other intentional hurdles). For you religious people, maybe a credit system whereby one just walks out of the store with merchandise -- only the luddites can be seen waiting in line. Over the space of years, people come to suspect those that refuse implants as having something to hide.
4th step: A new government policy -- all babies tagged at birth. My guess is that by this point (say 80 years from today), most people elect to have implants and the government need not force any legislation (that's why I say policy not law).
Never will an adult citizen be forced to have a foreign object implanted in their body. There will never be any protesting on the street or wild outrage. If this does happen, it will be slowly and insidiously.
Its always the gradual change that slips under the radar.
I am missing a human right in the declaration of the UN:
The inviolableness of the body.
I see how nasty this can sound, but ask yourself, " How will I get around this tech?". Simple, somebody else will make it. Back in the old days of Atari, Colecio made a atari-like console from reverse engineering. Circumvention tech has ALWAYS been around, even if it's in the black market. Who hasn't seen a spidery black box hanging from behind a cable box? Just a few Years ago, PSX was hit with that nice thing called a Mod Chip. All it is is just a Pic processor with programmed instructions. I even "burnt" mine (eeprom burner). However if this ever does become mandatory, I'll be using the buffer overrun type chip that crashes computer-readers, or I'll just emp the sucker. I'm sure that it will be using cmos gates (the only way for devices to be fried with emp).
Josh Crawley
We could all get inplanted to incress efecentcy. ie no ID/tax/pay check/medicar/tangable tender. It could all be done automaticly by computer. Then it prevent abuse we creat the computer to run autonomis(No humen interaction) because computers are perfect. Seams like a good idea to me :-).
I wont overlord I wont OverLoad now damit and a vest controled by the computer that allows me to live forever(- radioactive decay). Or copy my brain to a computer and use it to collonize the stars.(Hi Mister Fireball)
Anyone who has read some of Orson Scott Card's books will know what I am takiing about. I hope I got his name right.
Let's see here, we've already accepted:
-- Our private medical information being entered into databases and sold to marketing companies.
-- Our credit records, containing all sorts of personal and private data, being sold to marketing companies and being used to barrage us with all manner of advertisements for crap we don't need or want.
-- The Brits have accepted their every movement being monitored by closed-circuit telescreens, er, cameras, in the name of "crime prevention."
-- A de facto National ID number (the Social Insecurity number).
-- DoubleClick teaming up with Polk to personally identify and track web usage of individuals.
-- The Clipper chip. Key escrow. Carnivore. Nuff said.
What's to stop us from accepting a microship implant? "Oh, you don't want this? What are you a terrorist? A pedophile? A criminal?" is the most common refrain. Or, "If you're an honest guy, you've got nothing to worry about." And you know what? It works every time, it'll work this time too. Face it, folks, it's coming and we've done it to ourselves. We have finally gotten the government we deserve.
Oh well, call me a cynic, but I'm only surprised that it has taken this long.
Then we'd all be smart-arses.
Paul
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
Nobody would mind indeed, if governments around the world were ideal. If there was no corruption, no greater interests, etc etc ad nauseum.
Are they? Uh. No. Hell no. When you think about a technology, and when you are weighing its benefits, you shouldn't think of how it can be used. You should think of how it would be ABused. Because it will be.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Thanks for reminding me. While I cannot confirm whether this is a rumor/horror story/urban myth or the truth, I've heard that in the days when East Germany was a totalitarian state, several 'political suspects' were tagged using radioactive material by the secret police.
...Bugger off.
With the unfortunate side-effect that many of them died of cancer and other pleasant things.
"But no, really. These implants are safe! Scout's honor."
So long, and thanks for all the fish
So this implant is intended for medical use, and subsequently identification? What does it offer that a bracelet with a MedAlert number or (to get high-tech) a smart card (on the bracelet) doesn't (in terms of medical detail)?
How does this assist in identification? The object of accurate identification is NOT to track ordinary people (except in aggregate), but to track specific people. Those who currently go to great lengths to avoid being identified, bypassing existing security and forging their credentials.
And, as usual, the Great Propaganda Machine assumes that because Joe Public can't remove an implant or modify it somehow, neither can a well funded terrorist.
Most disturbing, however, is the list of exceptions that will arise. Anyone who any government determines should be incognito will be able to get "fake" implants or avoid implants altogether. You don't want even a short range transmitter giving away the location of your crack troops, do you?
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
You are conviently overlooking the fact that there will have to be millions on millions of cheap, reliable scanners absoutely everywhere that can read and verify such a card - even the thought of security by obscurity is a joke in the real world application of such a system. I'm sure the terrorists would love such a system. People will come to rely on it with unswerving devotion and someone with a cracked card will be almost invisible despite activities that would raise suspicions under other circumstances
Profanity - The sign of a small mind trying to express itself.
Following that prediction, I'll have to say that the next revolutionary war isn't far off, either.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
This morning I took the subway here in Rome and on the billboards usually covered by lightly dressed models (some Santas are sooo cute in Hot Pants ;-) ) I saw a Patrol publicity. Yep, us italians hysterize quite easily so some egghead must have thought: "Let's put a private guard in every sub station!" The big, bad, marine style beef prettily dressed up in a somewhat fascist uniform + basque, smiling at best as a pissed off rottweiler. Of course none of these idiots could do anything if some loon decides to have afternoon tea with his god but the idea is that this should and does, clear the panic from the avg citizen.
So it dawned on me that most of the people are so bloody scared of what's around them that they are willing to give up whatever they have just to _feel_ safe. So many behaviours and recent political chioces are plainly driven by fear... we are just crying for Daddy! So here he comes, he'll take care of everything, he'll defend us from the bad guys, he'll make us prosper... all we have to do is keep quiet when he's hard at work and do as we're told, no discussions.
This subcutaneous chip is not just the Si-era (probaby bluetooth) version of the nazi serial tattoo... you see, those dicks, and us italians too, had a fundamentally aggressive ideology. All we have here is the middle class rat attitude at it's greatest... the proudly ignorant haunted by the 'Hic sunt dragones' that lie beyond his fog-of-war. Our problem is just the immense ignorance our society is breeding: Haider, Berlusconi, Bossi, Patrols, [favreligion] fundamentalism, uright conservatism. Where has the 'Global Village' of the 80's gone... washed away with the yuppies?
Merry XMas,
Eddy
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
Ji-haa! Finally they're doing something worthy with that technology. I just hope they include a remote implentee termination option on the chip as well... I mean syanide or such for efficient population control.
______________
OTTERS RULE.
But seriously, this discussion was about interesting technology, not fairy tales, so you're really off-topic now.
______________
OTTERS RULE.
And they played commercials on the radio.. bummer
The first person who tries to implant one of these in me is going to have a bullet implanted in them.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
There is no way in hell I am tagging myself or any members of my family. Furthermore, I think the whole computer thing is just making a majority of the general public, to quote George Carlin, REALLY FUCKING STUPID! No one thinks for himself or herself anymore; and Kids don't use their imaginations anymore - all these idiots do is rely on the computer. I purchased a $1.50 item in a store the other day with a $5 dollar bill and the brain trust behind the register had to ask what the change is this purchase - all the while I am saying to him $3.50, $3.50,v but does he listen to me? NO - he asks the other moron and she tells him $4.75! And then says just use the register! So you want to put a chip in me for "Medical Reasons". It will be faster if you're ever in a medical situation. No fucking way can we let these people who cannot think trust a computer to give them the 100 percent answer. They just might listen to the computer and not common sense and treat you for something that isn't wrong with you.... KEEP THE CHIPS IN THE ANIMALS (This included all the fucking criminals out there) POWER TO THE PEOPLE - NO ONE ELSE!
Now the only question remain is: "Head or hand?"
To all you who would suggest that those who are not criminals have nothing to hide and should welcome the conveniences that this implant could offer: may I recommend that you arrange with your local police department to have your body cavities regularly checked, to prove that you are not hiding anything illegal in them, since you obviously care more about the government's right to know at anytime what you have and what you are doing than about your own right to privacy.
WARNING: DO NOT LET DR. MARIO TOUCH YOUR GENITALS. HE IS NOT A REAL DOCTOR.
More jobs for us americans. Who cares about the so called local economy if its not even us who are working there?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Currently you do fly on airliners with government software. The space shuttle can be hyjacked because it has software on it too.
Forgers would have to pay millions of dollars to forge just a few cards, it wouldnt be like it is now where anyone can take your identity.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I don't know about you, but in my country (Mexico) and mostly in Latinamerica, kidnapping is a very popular form of getting easy money, because about 96% of the time the perpretators never get caught. And lately the victims are being found dead.
That's why I think we have to have one personal tracking ID. Maybe not a enforced one, but an optional one, that way, kidnapping would be a lot more difficult.
I want to feel safe myself and to feel safe about my kids an my wife.
Just my $ 0.02
David Brin the Science Fiction writer who wrote the UpLift series wrote this non-fiction book on how society can chose to handle the lack of privacy advancing technology can bring. Facial tracking software on every camera. Every ATM, gas station, subway, supermarket, and the list goes on in one seamless net. Think of all the criminals it could catch. But who would have access? Police Central Headquaters: Mother do I trust the government? Instant access all the time on the Web. Psycho-stalker's delight! I wonder if my crazed ex-girl friend is still checking up on me? This ablity to track people is comming soon. Very soon. The question is how do we as a society respond? My high school students came up with this solution. After 48 hours everything is aviable on the web. If a crime, or something horror movie like occures a judge could rule that block from the voyeristic public view. The key point being the judge must rule something out. Just a thought.
666 was a code for the initials of the emperor Dioclecian(sp?). If A=1, B=2, C=3.... then in the alphabet they were using 666 would equal his initials. In greek translations the number was 686 due to changes in the positions of the relevant letters. Needless to say this has nothing to do Satan, Lucifer, Mephisocles, etc....
The thing to realize about Revelation is that it was meant for the time in which it was written, not our time. Lamebrains and con men have been screaming "the sky is falling, the end times are nigh!!" and using revelation as the basis for almost 2000 years.
That being said I do think the idea of a tracking device that isn't something you can remove is a VERY bad idea. People have forgotten the concept of personal sovereignty and have fallen into the mindset that whatever rights or freedoms they posess are indulgences on the part of the government. If you believe that way then it becomes true. If however, you realize that no one has the right to hold power over you that you do not agree to, then the nature of things like this becomes very clear.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
But i already know who I am, why would i ever buy one of those ID chips?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
There IS no free society with stuff like this! Next time think things out!
BTW: The black market is my favorite market.
I wonder how long it takes befor somone invents a cruise missle to home in on one of thoes things.
(That would make them vary popular...)
As of Postgres v6.2, time travel is no longer supported.
Another great book about Bible prophecy that you may want to take a look at... The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marv Rosenthal. It's a great read.
well, the Stasi employed one quarter of the population to do their work so they certainly had a high overhead. At the same time, their effort was wasted because they couldn't interpret the data. If we have a national tracking system, we'll end up with the same damned problem. "We know where all 250million US Citizens are, but how do we find the terrorists/criminals/bad guys of the week?"
And again, do we want that kind of privacy invasion? If we start handing out speeding tickets based on GPS signals and toll readers, what $MajorAbuse will we get if that kind of data gathering goes into effect. Fankly, it's none of $GovernmentAgency's business that I went to the bathroom five times yesterday or that I attend church regularly (or not).
If you make people criminals, they will live down to your expectations.
Lastly, let's stop calling terrorists "criminals" and accept them for what they are, highly dedicated soldiers engaged in a war. That some members of a task group are killed to acheive an objective is simply a matter of military calculation, not insanity. We won't do this because this would require us to treat the acts as rational which calls into question a whole host of things we do.
"The conduct of neither [party], if strictly examined, will be irreproachable." -Elizabeth Bennet
what makes anyone think that I will let them implant me with a fucking chip. For the love of god, wtf has just happened. Why isnt this on the front page of every paper and main story on the news. This should have everyone pissed off big time.
It won't quietly fail and not give the reader information. It will crash in a way that results in a Blue Scream of Death of the person it was implanted into.
Naturally, your survivors won't have the right to sue MS for negligence resulting in death because of the EULA.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Care to give any hints about how you got LPPC on a 6100? I tried 2kQ4 on a 7100 but failed miserably. I'm now trying YDL 2.1.
Constitutionally Correct
That was more than a year ago, o how the time has passed... try http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net for special kernels, info and such
--hongpong.com
Unless these are made out of some novel new material (ie non magnetic and can't cary a curent) you could never have an MRI (at least not a quick one {faster scan=stronger magnet}), hope you dont have a back injury or get into a bad car crash.
I wonder how long it would be before a suit was filed for injuries from an MRI performed on a person that this was forced upon. Ex-con gets in car wreck, MRI while he/she is out, chip comes flying out of arm and through (insert soft body part here).
Please forgive any gram./spelling errs it's 4am
Information wants to be free like speech wants to be free, not like we want beer to be free.
Everyone just needs a good-ol' non-natural microchip in their brain. How about a nice V-Chip? Don't want you thinking 'dangerous thoughts' because we all know it's dangerous to think different. Thinking about violence? Aw, that's just unethical, better not let you think anything you want no matter how perverse, or how different it is from the norm.
I forget the title, but there was some short sci-fi story where everyone was made equal, by having chips in their brains and were then... basically dumbed down to mental retardation and had no long term memory span. This isn't an issue about privacy, it's an issue about human freedom.
Sure, first it's just a convenience... but then it's going to get more complex and then you'll be in the hole too deep to get out. Better 'nip it in the bud' sort of speak.
Every human being should be disgusted by such technology. Sure, it's neat, sure it's a breakthrough. But does all that comes along necessary? No.
Funny, this. It directly contravenes the Geneva agreement :) But appart from this, it's all in how the tech will be used. For example, I have no objection to a universal DNA database, with the catch that it could only be used for solving crimes, and would be off-limits to (for example) insurance agencies and employers (of any kind). As for the not-so-smart who talk about satelite tracking on these things...thats cost-prohibitive if used for everyone. And truth to tell, I wouldn't mind if they did that only to convicted criminals, while having just a short-range, "user-on/off-able" for the rest of us. Would be a nice way to use an ATM, buy a busticket, whatever...
FYI, GPL stands for the GNU "General Public License".
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"People who do not break things first will never learn to create anything." -Philippine Proverb
Anyone ready for some reverse engineering?
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"People who do not break things first will never learn to create anything." -Philippine Proverb