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Lunchbox Computers for Live Music Performances?
Dan Reetz asks: "As a PC based musician, mobility is critical. However, most laptops have horrible soundcards. PCMCIA cards like a VXPocket cost about 700 clams. A friend of mine recommended I look into 'lunchbox' style computers as a portable solution. A few searches revealed them to be quite expensive and they are hard to find used. Does anyone know of a source for used Lunchbox PC's (even just the diplay would be fine) or a better low latency/noise audio solution for laptops?"
I've seen Shuttle SV24s with pretty good kits inside of them. Starting at $250 buy-in, that's not bad. Also, I've seen one where a guy bolted on an Amp Strap to the top of the case, which seemed to work well.
What about the empeg? http://www.empeg.com
M-Audio and one other manufacturor (I can't remember their name) make USB and Firewire break out boxes for laptops with Audio In/Out (Balanced XLRS, 1/4 stereo and mono) with on-board high-quality DACs.
I'm looking to get the M-Audio one for my iBook to do digital recording as Macs don't come with Audio in anymore, leaving it up to third parties to make Firewire/USB solutions. They have low latency (I would image the Firewire one would be lower due to Firewire's higher transfer rate), but I've heard nothing but good things about them.
Also, if you're doing sequencing, you can get a MIDI breakout box and connect to another MIDI device for audio output.
Why not get a USB audio device? I have the Audiosport Quattro and it works great. www.edirol.com has some nice cheaper ones as well.
I have done a dj thing at a small event (party for uni society) with just a PC and a whole load of tracks i ripped for ease or mixing on a pc. Plus with a TV out card card winamp plugins can be projected onto a well
Seriously, its not really that hard. Check out the case and cooling forum at ArsTechnica:= fr m&s=50009562&f=77909585
http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a
Search around and I'm sure you'll find guidelines on how to build if not a lunchbox computer, at least a suitcase computer.
A quote from the site linked to in the submission.
A lunchbox is NOT a cheap, off-the-shelf, shrink-wrapped computer system. In fact, one can generally purchase a fully operational notebook computer for less than the cost of the bare lunchbox chassis.
So why do you think that we will be able to work the magic for you. Of course you can argue that they are just saying that so you shell out the big $$$ to them, but still. Its like reading on CNN that nobody knows where Bin Laden is, and then asking slashdot for his mailing address!
Lunchbox machines aren't meant to be cheap or inexpensive...Their meant to be ruggedized PC's in portable enclosures for jobs that need the full power and expandability of a desktop PC without the (relative) fragility that comes along with desktops. You probably are not going to find one cheap. If you want this kind of power and can be reasonably careful, an intelligently built desktop that is carefully secured inside the case can do your job. You want that ruggedness...you're going to pay for it.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If you're looking for an older-style sound, say...like a cheap clock radio, i'd definetly recommend a Sparc Classic. With 8-bit & 11kHz you can't go wrong. But, if that's not in the cards, I'd recommend finding a nice 10" monitor like they have for grocery store checkouts. Couple that with a box the size of a classic with a nice sound card and you'd do fine. Not the most portable, but I assume you'd haul it to point B, set it up, play some tunes, take it down, drive back to A. Really not that much work I'd think.
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
Why replace a whole computer (with a $999+ component from ThinkGeek, perhapse)? Keep the laptop, but use a different method of getting the tunes *OUT*.
You know that PCMCIA cards suck. Have you tried USB or maybe Paraell port? I know of one product, lp3, hooks into the paraell port and you basically print the MP3 to it. Unfortunately the lp3 is not shipping (they're having problems handling shipping).
I've also heard of the LPBlaster, and of course numerous supported USB audio devices...
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
A cheap new laptop with your expensive PCMICA sound card would still be under $2000. Thats much cheaper than any of the decent luggables, and less expensive than making your own luggable - if your time is worth more than $20 an hour. If price is an issue, than a used MicroATX form factor computer with a 15" LCD monitor strapped to it permently coulden't cost more than $1000 and would weigh about 15 poinds. Paint the whole thing black with Krylon and it might even look cool.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
The Apple PowerBooks have a good reputation among musicians. Apple has posted a page of music-related technologies for the PowerMac line, such as the AudioSport Quattro 24/96, described as "24-bit 96kHz USB audio and MIDI interface with direct monitoring switches; 4x4 audio interface; with ASIO and OMS MIDI drivers."
There was a similar article on Slashdot (a long time ago, not a dig at /. editors) which should have some good ideas for you. I only remember it because I was the one who asked the question.
Kind thoughts do not change the world
especially because you have to pay royalties on whatever special character you want on it. For example, some people would want Batman Lunchbox PCs; Some would want Cabbage Patch Kids. And some (like me) would want the almighty Penguin-Man.
Don't listen to them, it's a conspiracy; THAT'S the real reason LPCs get pricey
i used to use a powerbook back when i did live music. the latency on the built in audio cards is top notch, and the notebook all around rocks for live audio playback. mine was even relatively old.
.brad
flesh eating ants records
How about using the USB ports for audio? You probably don't want a cheap pair of USB speakers, but perhaps just a box you can hook up from USB to your amplifier. A quick web search found one but of course I have no idea if it meets your quality needs. If this works, you could use any laptop with decent USB.
Perhaps you could get a small computer that has a PCI slot, such as a Shuttle SV24. Get a flat-screen display and a small keyboard and mouse, and then stick in your choice of high-quality PCI-based sound card. This plus a couple of carrying cases would be about as functional as a lunchbox portable, and a heck of a lot cheaper.
Good luck.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Check out CyberResearch (PDF) or Their Website for some nice machines like you describe. I know I've posted about them before, I used to work for them, and while, this stuff is not cheap, it is high quality and they stand behind it. If this is going to be your livelyhood, why not do it right the first time. I'd rather spend $3000 once then spend $1000 4 times.
Don't Tread on Me
As a musical instrument-based programmer, I still haven't found a grand piano with a good C compiler ...
Seriously though, what the heck is a "PC-based musician" ?
a used VXPocket as opposed to a used lunchbox. I suspect the used VXPocket would be cheaper....as for finding one, I haven't a clue.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
This case and appropriate components (flatpanel monitor) could work well for this, so long as you have a nice PCI, USB, or firewire device for your audio. Of course, I don't know if having everything so cramped increases interference in the audio components, but if you are really in need of this quality you probably want a set up that keeps things digital until the signal is well away from the computer itself.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
The specs say it requires Windows. What's the deal with linux support?
Whether you have a Mac or a PC, and assuming you are making techno/electro, you may want to take a look at Propellerheads' Reason. Another cheaper alternative is Fruity Loop.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Here's a site devoted to getting mobile music out of your notebook.
He recommends the "EMU8710" and the "WaMi Box". A quick net search shows 'em both running about $400 - a little more reasonable than the $700 quoted above.
If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
*ducks and runs out of room*
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
EgoSys has two products that you could use for notebooks: WaMi Box, which is a PCMCIA, and Waveterminal U2A, which is supposedly very good.
You should also check out usb-audio.com!
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
If your whole gig setup is a fullsized tower and a 15" monitor, you're lucky.
Think about how much gear your average performer has on stage. Amps, effects, mixers, it's endless. That's why the band/crew shows up at 3pm for a 9pm show, even at a small club. Much carrying has to be done before the soundcheck. You're usually lucky to find time for dinner before they open the doors..
I'd suggest getting the most solid midi-tower you can, a the smallest cheapest monitor you can live with and go.. The monitor is gonna get a beer dropped in it sooner or later anyway, so go for cheap not quality. Bring super solid cables and lots of extras. Have balanced XLR outputs ideally. Running RCAs to a PA requires special boxes which the club may not have.
I've been thinking about building a similar type thing myself. Take a good, metal briefcase. Go to your local computer hobby shop, and pick up a small motherboard, perferably with intigrated ethernet/modem, etc. Throw in a video and sound card, whatever proc you like, etc. Put it in the bottom of the briefcase so that the sound and video are flush with the side. Cut two rectangular holes in the side, so that the cards can have the plugs sticking out, just like in a case. Mount a sheet of metal above this. The keyboard and mouse rest there. In the top of the briefcase, take a flat screen (15in for under 300 now) cut off the stand and mount it in the top. Run the cords to a small surge that fits in the case, and cut a door for the cable to come out and plug in. I'm sure something could be done for battery power. There, for not much more than a normal desktop, you have a portable powerhouse, that will do whatever you want.
Sig!
For remote network monitoring, we've been looking at a little shoebox unit. It has the portability, price you want, but would need adjustments to get I/O and sound into it:
http://www.portwell.com/pna-2413.htm
Look around and see if you can find another product of theirs that works. Price for a single 2413 unit was under $1000.
For that matter, where stereo rackmount and server rackmount are similar form factors, I'd also start exploring rackmount PC's. Again, a fullfeatured box is a grand or so. Ruggedized?! Hardly. But keep it simple inside the box, use whatever tricks might help to ruggedize things yourself (rubber bushings on all rackmount points, secondary mounting at the back of the casing), and treat it nice (as in carry it in and out of the show yourself, rather than letting strangers treat it like the speakers get treated) and maybe it'll save you the bucks needed for a rugged lunchbox.
LET ME SHOUT THIS AGAIN... I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT RUGGED PORTABLE SYSTEMS. WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS SMALL, INEXPENSIVE, AND CONFIGURABLE. I hope this helps...
Midiman makes the quattro usb based sound system that apparently has very low latency and excelent quality. The price is pretty low too. It has 4 i/o's and you can get the omni system that adds 8 more inputs to it
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
I got to share my favorite anecdote about rugged pcs. Some guy was having problems doing live shows, and his labtop was completely crashing. Apparently, the massive bass from the sound system was knocking the heads of the hard disk around, causing the computer to act all goofy. That's a pretty difficult problem to resolve.
Anyways, my friend described it as an up to date version of a Godel Escher Bach tale where the tortoise is trying to build a record player that can't be broken. But no matter how complicated a machine he makes, there is always a record that will destroy his system.
That wasn't all the clear, but if you know the book, you'll get the gist of whatIsayin.
Well, I wouldn't go with a USB solution, since the bus can't handle the bandwidth needed for 24 bit/96 khz recording. I would definitely recommend the MOTU 896 (markoftheunicorn.com) which has a firewire interface and works great with both PC and Mac desktops/laptops. We use it in the VCCM as well as our Portable Audio Workstation (PAWN) (click on the research link) which is a lunchbox-type solution running Linux.
... and in these docking stations some of them can have a PCI card.
I have a TP Dock (2631-20U) with my T23, and although I don't use a PCI card in there, it has support for a half height pci card.
I'm sure there are other similar solutions available to add desktop functionality to your notebook.
What you really want is a regular laptop with a Firewire audio interface. There are several on the market now geared more towards multi-channel stuff, but I'm working on a hardware design that would make a high-quality (think 24bit, 192KHz) stereo output relatively cheap (say $100). Email me at omega at temple - baptist dot com for more info, but don't expect anything usable for a few months ;-}
GStreamer - The only way to stream!
Would be nice to have 16 or 24 individual inputs (balanced or unbalanced) for use at shows... you could use a decently powerful laptop as a multi-track recorder... just plug into the front-of-house mixing board and you have the entire band on disk, that you can remix to your heart's content. I haven't seen anything like this yet that's not PCI, but it seems to me that a firewire interface should be able to easilly do something like this (at least bandwidth wise)
I'm also an electronic musician and have had good luck with USB audio adapters.
There are three rather good cheap ones out right now:
- The iMic which works on Win32 machines and run for $35, check out their stats at www.griffintechnology.com. 24 bit/48khz, etc.
As well as the somewhat cheap entries from Emagic and Roland/Edirol
All three support ASIO, I believe. I've never experienced any performance issues with USB audio devices, as the USB bandwidth is more than enough to handle audio tasks.
Screw the lunchbox, and just stick with the laptop, it's much easier to work from one computer, and if you're like me, you're surgically attached to your laptop.
A laptop with a fairly lightweight and small docking station might be a solution.
Biodiesel : domestic, renewable, clean, and in the fuel tank of my bone stock 2002 New Beetle TDI
Since most electronic music gear has standardised on the 19" rack, maybe a 1U server would fit the bill (add a good PCI soundcard, a midi interface). You can also get other accessories (LCD, keyboard) made for the 19" standard. And I know that some gear cases have the 19" built-in.
But this can get expensive pretty quick.
As a minimal solution, it isn't too hard to actually build a box to this sort of spec. For a case, start with a toolbox and hollow it out; then strap in a power supply, a small motherboard, and all the goodies. A bit of cutting work should let the ports and so on come out.
This is different from trying to build a portable or luggable since it doesn't need its own power source -- if you're doing music, you probably have access to 120VAC somewhere. So a traditional power supply can work.
A setup like this could easily come down to the $1000 price range, and open you to putting more money into a really good sound card...
I've had great results with my MOTU 828. It's a rack-mount unit that connects to my laptop via Firewire, with many digital (2 channel S/PDIF I/O, 8 channel 24-bit ADAT lightpipe) and analog inputs (6 1/4" and 2 Neutrik XLR/TRS combo connectors with optional 48v phantom power), all with 24-bit converters w/excellent range) and outputs (8 1/4"). It's rack mountable, it's got drivers for PC and Mac, and it's very dependable -- I've had absolutely no problems whatsoever. And it ships with both ASIO and WDM drivers for PC, which means that it will work with any sequencer or audio program.
Building Better Software
Greetings, Check out your local thrift stores...
I got an old 286 Luggable for $5.
I've replaced the motherboard (Baby AT), and the drives, and it's working fine. The only thing to be aware of is the case format. Mine has the power supply hovering over the motherboard in one corner. I couldn't use my first choice motherboard replacement as it had prominent components just there (voltage regulators with heatsinks if it counts)
It's not been upgraded too far and it only has a CGA display, but perhaps you can do better.
-- Under/Overrated is meta-moderation, and therefore is Redundant.
Let me also take this time to plug EM411, and excellent online community dedicated to electronic musicians. Loads of info and loads of cool people.
Discussions often get very technical.
www.em411.com
If you are going the homebrew route, one case that may be worth checking out is the case from an old compact SPARC. They had very small, very dense cases which are just great for luggable applications, and quite robust. You can probably pick one up very cheap as scrap.
This thread on I-appliance talks about the VIA Shuttle, which is halfway between a laptop and a desktop.
anadantech - outpost, with 1GHz Celeron, $330
Just use a regular PC and put a handle in the case and on the monitor. Back in the days of 386s, I went on-site with such a set up: a handle screwed into the case, velcro attachments for a keyboard, even a handle screwed into the 14" CRT monitor.
From helping musician-friends haul thier shit around, this seems an adequate solution to me...
There was also a pretty small (Apple Cube-sized) PC case for around $250 that was mentioned a few times on Slashdot... didnt turn anything up in a search tho, sorry.
I use a regular pc for recording live performances. I would be interested if you find out more about Lunchbox computers. It truly is a pain to work with a regular pc. I am trying different solutions now.
If someone does this make sure to get a portable harddrive... although most harddrives are pretty reliable they aren't designed to be constantly lugged around. Although a missing bit or two isn't that bad in audio (watch me get flamed by an audiophile)
Here's a nice breakdown of the laptop audio interface options (geared towards PowerBooks, but all of these are available for PC, too).
http://www.subminimal.com/ear/pbaudio.html
I have the Emagic EMI 2|6 myself, which I like a lot. I'd look at a number of these solutions rather than a "lunchbox" computer.
Bill
--
http://www.chromedecay.org
unless you need the 24/96 fidelity for something (and if you're playing live it's not really going to make a difference) just use what comes built into the notebook and get a $6 patch cable at the shack. i know many musicians who use PCs (some highly successful) and only the truly anal and wealthy among them has invested in high-end sound for the PC that they take to gigs.
here's my alternate solution: get a portable 19" audio rack bin ($60-$200 available at any fine audio gear merchant) and a cheap 1U rackmount box with 1 PCI clot from siliconrax or somebody ($700-$2000 depending on configuration). get a delta66 adapter (probably $150 by now) and shut off the onboard sound. in this way, your computer is fairly self-contained and portable, and you have more rack space for your effects, mixers, nord lead or whatever else you need to carry.
Personally, I think computers on stage are tacky, but Richie Hawtin evidently thinks they're okay, since he's using Final Scratch these days...
Just make sure you have XLR outs. Do I even need to say that?
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the German made PCIII yet. This is the ultimate lunchbox PC complete with a built in LCD screen and snap in keyboard/touchpad combo. They're standard PC cases on the inside as well, making them quite upgradeable. A friend had the original AT PCIII and upgraded it to the fastest Super Socket7 kit on the market and it's been great. I believe it began life as a low end P54C Pentium. Go check it out!
Brandon D. Valentine
I used to do a lot of tracker and MIDI music and I learned many helpful tips about eliminating audio noise in electronic systems:
- "It's just a matter of opinion!" - PRIMUS
You may want to take a look at Magma's solution : an external box with pci slots that you'll connect to your laptop using the pcmcia ports. You maqy even put a scsi harddisc inside !
Imagine this coupled with a Yamaha SW1000XG soundcard...
Trolling using another account since 2005.
24bitfaq.org is an excellent resource for high quality moble recording info.
shoOz
Use a new iMac!
as an electronic musician, i would imagine that you own a ton of rack mount gear, as i do. i reasoned that i should make my pc into a rack mount system as well. the case and ps were $250us, and i got creative with a spare lcd screen from a "web appliance" type thing for the display.
I use a notebook computer for live performances, and bought the Emagic EMI 2|6 USB audio interface. It's great. 24-bit DAC, 48 KHz, 2 ins, 6 outs, coaxial S/PDIF, $325. If you use Logic Audio like me, then it gives you the added bonus of low-latency virtual instrument playback. Check it out.
Used two powerbooks at a gig I was at. I have no idea as to the specs, but they did a two hour gig from these two machines.
Actually, One of them had to reboot and the Mac boot chime went in time with the Music, so he kept rebooting it to the beat, while laughing his ass off.
If you dont know who Autechre are, go find 'em!
I think this was posted on /. once. These will probably help you:
1 .h tm
http://www.supersiteusa.com/lanjunky1/briefcase
In Vino Veritas
You might want to go with what the pros do... get a sampler. They're rugged, and you'll be able to access audio very quickly. And they're cheaper than buying an entire computer (at least they can be.
I just use a Micro ATX motherboard (LAN+Video onboard) with a Sound Blaster Live! OEM board and a surplus point-of-sale monitor (6") for my live shows.
Cheesy photos here.
That gives you MIDI, audio in/out. Upgrade to a more recent sound card if you wish.
Eventually I'll put it in a proper case, probably wood or plexiglass. Still smaller than even the smallest tower.
Leif aka Schema
I want to get a MOTU 828 or 896 audio interface at somepoint, but for now, the Cube and the iMic work great!
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
I think a good question here is why lunchbox sized? If one is working with music equipment in the firstplace, 90% of it is going to be rack mountable equipment, so why not a good rack mountable computer?
I Have been looking for a good rack mountable case & flat-panel/keyboard combo for my rack for a while myself..
---"Some where in the heavens they are waiting.."
Why not go with a rackmount case? You can find them for the price of a nice full-tower, and you can shove 'em right into your rack for recording/tone generation, etc.
darius
Just bite it and pay the $700 bucks for the 24bit PCMIA card, and consider it an investment in your production capabilities. Between your $500 or better keyboard, $200 amp, $400 4-track, and all the other stuff you've bought, maybe it would be an appropriate expense, at least in line with your other gear, considering you seem to have a fondness for quality.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
According to their FAQ, there is support for USB audio in the 2.4 kernel, but they haven't tried it themselves. I'd be interested in seeing if anyone has hacked it into working order. It'd be really nice for my laptop.
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
Used to be you could get a lunchbox case into which you could assemble standard components. They were pricey because they included plasma screens. I'd expect you could still find one that used an LCD flat panel instead, but I'm not sure where to start looking. I did find a few possibilities. Most are more expensive than the equivalent desktops, but portability still has its price. Wescom Vox Kintek That should be enough to give a few ideas. I wouldn't think people used to cramming components into 1U rack boxes would have too many problems putting a lunchbox together...
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
There has been for a very long time. I have a 286 luggable to hand, you could shoehorn a small mobo into it and (because it was designed for a baby-AT with ISA slots) do some surgery on a Yamaha or other cheap-but-good PCI soundcard to fit it in.
You'd probably have to use a laptop CPU to avoid overloading the ancient PSU in those things but OTOH the hard drives of the era weren't exactly light on power either so a compromise with a low-ish powered mainstream CPU might work.
You generally don't get battery operation like a laptop, though, unless you're also prepared to lug an inverter and battery, or modify a PSU to suck 12V (not as difficult as it sounds but still need some electronics expertise) and lug just a battery (or 'gator clips and a lead to your car).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Check out http://www.edirol.com/ They make USB audio hardware ranging from the UA-1 ($80; 16 bit 44 khz DAC/ADC, but with very clean output, unlike the cheap $35 knockoffs), all the way up to the UA-5 ($300, 24 bit 96khz, SPDIF, mic, etc). They also have some other products with MIDI support if that's your thing.
The UA-1 should work fine in Linux with the 2.4 USB drivers, since it (presumably) complies with the base USB audio device spec. Anything better than 16 bit / 44 khz over USB 1.0 is outside the spec, iirc, so support on other OSs gets shadier.
(Fortunately, USB 2.0 includes a specification for much higher quality audio devices).
Latency over USB can be awesome when using the right software. 5-10mS is easily possible in Linux.
After falling in love with 24 bit quality at a friend's studio, I spent $550 for a usb-based A/D called USBPre This is powered %100 from my notebook's USB, and delivers 48V Phantom power to the microphones. It's nice and small, and I can fit everything but my mic stand in my laptop's breifcase.
After buying the USB Pre and playing around with mulitracking for a couple of months, I decided to get some really nice microphones. I ended up choosing a pair of Sure KSM32 side-address condensers. I've used the system with great results at four live concerts (a-capella, and orchestra w/ chorus) and absolutely love the results.
Since the USBPre has a level meter (seven-segment LED style) and Level knobs, I only have the notebook open long enough to start WaveLab and press the record button. I close the laptop and fuhgetaboudit until after the performance. I think having a lunchbox style luggable would just be useless and distracting.
For software, I tried Cool Edit, but it doesn't record directly to a file. It records to temporary space, and then you have to save the file... momentarialy taking up twice the amount of diskspace as should be necessary! Now I am using Steinburg WaveLab and haven't had too much trouble.
For a notebook I'm using a Hewlet Packard Omnibook 500 (500MHz & 5200RPM hard drive) Even though this is below spec for the USBPre, it works great. The notebook is less than 4 lbs, and the USBPre is 1-2 lbs... and the XLR cables are 5lbs... etc... My whole set of gear is lighter than the mic stand.
The guys at USBPre have offered to share documentation and knowledge to let me write a 24 bit Linux Audio driver, but it seems they don't have any typed documentation, and aren't willing to type it up just for me. So I'm starting with the linux UA100 (a roland 16 bit audio & midi USB device) driver, and trying to implement a Linux driver. My dream is to use the USBPre on Linux (Got debian running on a second swappable hard drive on the Omnibook 500) using Audacity for software.
-Jim
Celebrate Excellence!
Despite your claim of poor selection of sound interfaces for the notebook factor there actually are a lot of options today. The PC Card version of the RME Hammerfall is an amazing multi channel audio interface and boasts a 1ms ASIO latency. In addition to PCI based audio there is also some high quality USB and Firewire devices which are very high quality. The EZ-Bus, which is in the $500 range, from event seems like it would be ideal for an electronic musician who wants to combine PC and outboard gear in a live rig.
This case is just barely bigger than an ATX motherboard (and won't fit the larger ones). Put a good sound and video card in here and the resulting machine should be quite small and light. Though you'll still need a TV or monitor of some kind.
m er ce.cgi?product=guise_case
http://www.wahoocomputers.com/cgi-bin/store/com
That's a really good idea for the actual computer. How would you rack mount a keyboard or monitor though? What would that look like?
Check out Roland's site for more information.
Have you ever lugged record cases around? What a pain. Songs are information, and information just shouldn't need to weigh so much.
Cheaper than a laptop, and it has a handle.
Personally, I previously used a Toshiba Tecra 720 with an Expansion Station V (PA2710U). This is a lower older Pentium solution, however they can be had for really cheap on ebay. The PA2710U works with most Tecra models up through the 8000 as well as some of the Portege models (requires an adaptor [PA2714U]).
I currently use a Tecra 8100 (PIII) with it's expansion station (PA3018U). This is much more current and not as inexpensive, (most of the cost is the 8100!! but what a sweet machine).
There are however more generic solutions to allow you to add PCI slots to PC's and Mac's. Magma Offers PCMCIA/CardBus to PCI adaptors in the 1 slot full or half length card as well as a 2 slot and 4 slot solutions with built in drive controllers.
Getting all the way to the extrememe, companies like Baber.com sell a Universal Expansion Stations like the PCIDock 5000 that will adds a mini-tower including a second screen display, IDE controller, USB, Serial, Parrellel ports all in one unit. Basically a PC without a CPU.
Howdy,
Have you thought about having a docking station for your laptop? They are fairly compact and, at least my DELL model, allows PCI cards to be inserted.
This way you could use a cheap PCI sound card and stick with your laptop. All of this in a compact footprint.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
The specs say it requires Windows. What's the deal with linux support?
Who uses linux for pro audio?[1]
This guy sounds like he's doing something a bit more advanced than playing MP3 remixes of the "Free Software Song".
Something where decent software support just might come into the picture.
C-X C-S
[1] Nobody. Last I heard all the major PA wares were win/mac only.
http://www.magma.com/index2.html
good stuff. you can take your laptop with you, leave this in the rack.
Sitting Walrus Blog
Buy a Thinkpad T or A model with a docking station, which has a PCI slot. You can find these machines on Ebay direct from IBM at great prices. You'll have to hunt for a docking station for less than retail.
You can get a firewirecard for your laptop for not a lot of $$. Then drive it with a Sony media converter DVMC-DV1(rougly $300). The media converter runs off of 6v so you can either power it with a wall wart or some batteries. You can capture/play DV audio/video with this beast quite reasonably at a lot les $$ than buying a full dv deck.
Echo has made a PCMCIA laptop adapter for their Layla recording system. The system includes a breakout box with 8 inputs, 8 outputs, MIDI, and S/PDIF. Check out their Web site. The whole system is about $1000. I've used the older Layla20 with a PCI card and Cakewalk Pro Audio for over 2 years and it's working very well. I'm interfacing with the mixer section of a Tascam 4-track, a Boss drum machine, and a Digitech effects processor. Let me know if you have questions about my setup.
...They've tackled this problem before, and they have a number of requirements that kind of sync with yours....
Take a look here or here* for PCs built into a standard suitcase chassis.
* - If you like the base case used in this one, I think they're currently on sale at Menards (Hardware chain) for @$20. I'd go for something a LOT sturdier, personally. Take a look at Pelican's line of resin/plastic cases - They're even watertight, if you can resist knocking holes in it for your card outputs. A safe assumption would be 'Build it like it's going to be flung around by luggage handlers.'
You say Expandable PCI. Does that mean they have the pins for multi-slot PCI on that one PCI header? I'd love to use the Shuttle MB for a car-computer project, but I need >=2 PCI slots and don't know enough about the bus architecture to be able to tell the difference from close-up shots on the spacewalker website. Anyone?
Give me a break, learn how to play a REAL instrument, carry it with you in case, take it out, put it together, and PLAY IT. Computer based musicians can all go suck it.
They've got a great implementation of their product using a rackmountable audio interface and either PCI or PCMCIA cards to hook it up to a computer. A card and interface together are only marginally more than getting their all-in-one card, and then to buy a second card to use with the same interface is a lot cheaper.
This also takes care of another pet pieve of mine. Good AD/DA is the most expensive part of most components, so why spend a fortune on mediocre AD/DA in every digital component when you could just buy one good outboard AD/DA? They sell these as well...
What a Lunchbox Is Not
A lunchbox is NOT a cheap, off-the-shelf, shrink-wrapped computer system. In fact, one can generally purchase a fully operational notebook computer for less than the cost of the bare lunchbox chassis.
So, while you're bitching about a 700 dollar PCMCIA sound card.... you're looking at high-end rugged, special-use computers. Um.... call me a dumbass, but if you can't afford a sound card what makes you think you're going to buy a Lunchboxcomputer?
You should buy a small laptop computer, a decent sound card, and a really rugged case instead.
The band Cat Five does all their work via systems hooked in to PowerBooks. Check out the article.
Do not touch -Willie
Speaking from the perspective of also being a PC-based musician [shameless plug], I recommend Using a travel rackmount solution...
Compatibility - Lunchboxes are usually not built with upgradability in mind, and if you upgrade the mainboard you're usually at the mercy of the manufacturer.
Upgradability - Put more PCs in the travel rackmount case. Put hardware synthesizers in the road case. Put rackmount effects boxes in the case. Rackmout is the standard for stage equipment. Many hardware manufacturers produce rackmount versions of their breakout boxes. The possibilities are endless
Maintenance - Its an ATX format PC. There ya go. You can get a replacement mouse at Wal-Mart. If the screen, keyboard or mouse on a lunchbox goes south, you are fscked. On a rackmount PC, you use whatver screen you want (and you can even rackmount the monitor too if you want).
Reliability - A stage environment can get very hot. You have the option to mount as many fans as you can fit in a rackmount PC case, and rackmount cases almost always have better airflow because they're meant for server enviroments where many hot-running machines are clustered together.
Durability - A PC in a shock-resistant rackmount travel case is going to be comparably durable to a lunchbox. And if you can trust that it won't get dropped, you can get a cheaper non-shock resistant travel case.
Cost - You can have the functional equivalent of a lunchbox's durability using commodity hardware. I've seen military surplus rack travel cases selling on ebay for cheapo.
Portability - With a travel rack you can still lug it around without too much trouble. Not as portable as a lunchbox, but all of the above factors are much more important than moving the box.
Geekiness - When at home you can mount the PC and music hardware on the same rack as a bunch of network equiment. Can you really put a price on that?
Do *not* use a laptop. Period. Take all of the disadvantages of a lunchbox and add the fact that it isn't ruggedized. Bad idea.
Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
Linux doesn't have very good USB support at this time
This is just not true. I'm running a laptop with a 2.4.9 kernel and both the Telex-560 and Labtec Verse-704 USB microphones work great. They are much cleaner than the lousy ESS Maestro2 chip in my M300, and they are inexpensive! ($25 - $50)
support for Linux would make no sense to me if I was a developer - where's the real time recording software?
Excuse me. Check out a Linux program called baudline, it is a real-time recording and analysis program and it has no peer in either the MS or Mac world (or so I've been told).
this will date me, but...
a sparc with a lunchbox chassis can be had for 10 bucks or so. the monitor would be a problem, but i suppose an lcd monitor could make it portable enough. the sound was good for 1989. yet another use for an old sparc.
even better, an sgi indy is very rugged, has decent sound, is luggable (pizza box chassis), and can be had fairly cheaply these days. the indybag would be really useful in this situation, but unfortunately, they sometimes cost more than the machines themselves. irix can be a pain, especially if your on the cheap, but linux will run on the indy. i think the audio chip is one that linux supports.
in my opinion, this sort of cheap and otherwise thought-to-be-useless stuff makes the best gear. feel free to disagree.
mb
I would have to agree with this about using the Shuttle SV24. I have two of these at home, and I like them alot. You have room for one PCI card, and if you're into music, I would say you could install a SoundBlaster card (for example) via the PCI riser card that comes with the box and you would use the 5.25" bay for the front panel control that you could then connect to your MIDI keyboard. ANy accessories can be connected to the 4 USB ports, or the 2 FireWire ports. The computer comes with Video out too.
The case is extremely light weight; it's constructed from aluminum. The computer case itself is about the size of a box for a football. The price is about $250 retail. You will have to add the HD, CPU, Ram, but worth it.
FYI, the internal space is a little cramped, so have fun installing your HD and connecting the cables.
What about a USB soundcard?
External DSP, so less noise interference from the PC
Onkyo, DigitalAudio, and MAudio all offer product. The last time I priced them they were about $250-300 each with balanced I/O.
If you can't figure out my address, just drop me an e-mail and I will explain.
A month ago I bought the WaMi Box for the same purpose and it works great. It costs about $400. http://egosys.net/eng/product/products/wami_box/WM B.html
Yeah, they looked nice asthetically too... too bad they were taken off the market. Also I'd like to say that the /. moderators seem to have hijacked a large shipment of crack lately. How the fuck the the parent post get modded 'flamebait'??? It was supposed to be funny, get it? IOW, it was not 'bait intended to start a flame war.'
USB audio is the way to go.
-andy
Having just built an extremely portable rig for both recording and performance, here's what I'd suggest you do:
Build a machine into a rackmount case, setting it up with removeable RAID drives and stick it into a hefty case that can withstand travel. Here's why:
1) Even with top notch equipment, it will be cheaper than a laptop.
2) If you do this right, you'll be able to drop the machine out of your gig van (which you should assume will happen about once a month) and you won't suffer massive problems.
3) You'll be able to make sure that your MB chipset works for multimedia. I have many a friend who's been burned buying a machine for music that ended up not being able to handle audio without problems.
4) If you're planning to record, RAID is the only way to go for your drives. You'll be sure that you're getting the throughput you need so that you don't get glitches in the middle of playback.
5) Most rackmount gig cases will allow you to fit a breakout box type of soundcard in addition to your computer. I use the Mark of the Unicorn 2408 (http://www.motu.com) and it all fits together wonderfully in my Mini GigRig case.
As far as Mac vs. PC - I've used both extensively in professional situations and I keep coming back to one thing - PC software is written to use more than one mouse button. In the end, you can get all the same software for both Mac and PC and both platforms are quite developed for Multimedia. Multimedia drivers work fine, and ASIO is almost flawless no matter how you go. PCs just have those darned other buttons that make quick editting data easier.
My two cents.
go with the regular laptop, Mac or PC, and hook a swank new Edirol interface on it. for less than $400 you can get devices that have clean, digital sound, optical ins/outs, MIDI, and analog ins/outs. all in the same box, yes. best thing for the mobile musician, well, ever...
Why is mobility so important? Are you playing music while driving around? Quality systems take time to set up and tear down; notebook and lunchbox systems will save you nothing here.
Just get a mini-tower and an LCD display. You'll be able to maximize quality without spending too much money. In exchange, set-up and tear-down will be a little more work, but only a few cables' worth.
If you need to use the machine in a car or bus, you can get a power inverter cheap. If you're in a plane, use the notebook; it's quality will be sufficient til you land and can bust out the big machine.
-B
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
I use a Roland SP808ex for live PA shows... it is proprietary and never crashes. I convert everthing to zip disks on the PC, so there are no extra D/A conversions.
/.er who doesn't know you can do such things with PCs? The PC doesn't make the music... that's like milk comes from the grocery store!
I can't imagine "trusting" a live show to any computer environment... can you imagine the wait while you reboot because your audio driver hung...?
For anyone that is interested, there is a huge (noticeable) difference between 16 bits and 24 bits. Also, any "card" that has the convertors OUTSIDE your box will make a huge difference... but for live, I don't think fidelity is all that noticeable (I've never played anywhere that is even remotely accoustically "tuned).
The upside to going with a dedicated system, like the Roland, is that you would have to pay extra cash for your "lunchbox" anyway. A rack alone costs at least $200 extra if you go that route instead. For some odd reason, music gear seems to depreciate slower than computer gear. I assume by your original post that you are looking for a solution ONLY for live performance- and not for your regular DAW (which is how I use mine). Also, I think there is a bit more credibility by NOT having a PC "on stage"- although certainly the end result is the same.
Unless USB audio has changed remarkably in the last few years, I wouldn't trust it. One hiccup and its all over.
I don't know what apps you use for audio, but Cubase, etc. all are prone to crashing when the CPU is overtaxed (which doesn't take all that much when you are running a ton of tracks with insert plugins on each channel).
Also, you will likely have to contend with latency- even with an ASIO2 driver. You'd likely want a big buffer to protect your audio from dropouts while you play (sure you can go to tiny buffers/low latency- but would you risk it?).
Regarding flamebait: I use a computer as a DAW- it is used for recording, mixdown, and mastering. All the input is "real instruments" (if you consider a drum machine, sampler, synthesizers, etc. "real"). The PC and software replaces tens of thousands of dollars of hardware recording equipment. I can't believe the ignorance of some people... a
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Add an LCD screen (maybe even fix it onto the side of the case, or buy one of their POS PCs with screen already included), and the sound card(s) of your choice, and you're set. There is a potential for heat problems, because of the ultra-crowded case, but provided you don't lock it away in a small closet with junk crowded all around it (as my users tended to do), you'll be fine.
If you are looking for a very reasonable price for a Lunchbox computer without the BS, please visit www.sunmaxpc.com or contact david @ 1-626-447-7477 - We have 8 years of experience building lunchbox computers for various type of fields.
Sorry, don't know about lunchbox computers but what about a USB box (MOTU, Audiosport, etc)? Most all are 24 bit and have low latency. Plus, you should be able to find them for $200 and up.
"Ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space..."
idiot. firewire and USB draw off of the power bus of the system just like PCI. How do you think the iPod or an optical mouse gets its power?
Remember, there were no nuclear weapons before women were allowed to vote.
I remember Dolch from way back when. They invented the high performance rugged lunchbox format machine. They make several different models and types.
www.dolch.com
they fucking rule.
I should hope that an iPod would get its power from some sort of battery - otherwise its usefulness as a "portable" device is rather limited.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
The Creative Nomad jukebox is almost the perfect solution for this problem. It can record 48k uncompressed. If only it had digital inputs rather than the shitty mic input.
PCMCIA cards like a VXPocket cost about 700 clams
Pardon the OT post, but if you could come up with 700 clams...from the beach, say...would the stores honor this? Of course, these commercials offered stereos for bananas, but same idea.
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
http://sonicsense.com/newsys.html
;)
Is quite expensive, but costs $2000 and can run for something like 12 hours on a set of special batteries!
I love those picturebooks too
Power, grounding, and signals should follow the same tree structure, fanning out from a single power source and grounding point. You may have to violate this rule; if you do, an audio isolation transformer should be placed somewhere in the signal chain to break the loop.
I picked up the shuttle FV24 and and one of these. The board fits perfectly. I attached a 2.5in HDD inside lid with Velcro and laid some foam packing uder the Mobo for insulation then broke out the Dremel. There isn't any room to utilize the lone PCI slot (though a TV in card would be cool) and I'm still looking for a good power supply solution but this will rock when it's done.
We really need your help
http://www.gofundme.com/help-sherry
There are at least two pro level FireWire multichannel audio adapters out now. One is the MOTU 828, which is a rack-mount unit that Glyph makes a matching rack-mount storage unit for as well. There is another that is notebook-sized, but I can't remember the name. You can find it in a good music magazine, or through pro audio sites. With either of these adapters, you just hot-plug a FireWire cable between the adapter and the computer, and then install whatever software is necessary.
You can get a notebook with FireWire from Apple (any notebook from the past two years or so), Sony (some models), and a few others. Apple's machines also support mLAN, which is Yamaha's replacement for MIDI and optical digital cables, which also runs over FireWire. The content creation industries are standardizing on FireWire right now wherever they can. It's built to answer the problems that music and audio and video people face.
I don't know what the state of USB Audio is on Windows, but on the Mac you can get a small, cheap adapter like Griffin iMic ($25) and you get 24-bit stereo recording that's free of any internal computer noise. If you only need stereo, this is an easy solution. There are also some USB mic preamps, enabling you to plug a high-quality mic into USB and get good results.
The advantage is that you can throw in whatever hardware you need. The disadvantage is the monitor, which you still would have to transport seperately but if you buy a cheap LCD monitor this could be a good soultion because you'd have an easy-to-transport PC that is cheaper than a laptop and provides the power you need.
There's also the option of SBCs (single board computers). Integrated everything in a package much smaller than the Shuttle mobo. You can go from a 486DX to Socket 370, but the Geode (200-300MHz) integrated processors are neat; low power, no noisy fans needed. Most models have PCI/ISA headers, and some even have the actual slot. This could be used for whatever soundcard you desire. A good source is Advantech
you've checked out www.usb-audio.com, right?
... a supposedly mac-only USB widget that's so cheap I wonder why they bother charging for it at all ...)
...
supposedly you can acheive as low as 7ms latency using their drivers, using the various usb thingamajigs that work with them
(including Griffin Technologies lovely little iMic - www.griffintechnology.com
i haven't personally tried any of the devices nor the aforementioned drivers but seeing as yamaha (i think) and others licensed them to bundle with their usb audio devices as the included drivers they can't be that bad
my research points to the Edirol equipment as being the most promising, the red Yamaha box looks OK as well.
Jag pratar lite svenska.
I researched options for getting clean recordings of our band onto my notebook's hard drive. The two products (WaMi and WavTerminal) from EgoSys seem to provide more than enough quality for live performances and are at the upper end of the "home/project studio" level of gear. TracerTek offers a hardware/software bundle that I'm considering purchasing for myself: http://www.tracertek.com/bundle4.htm If $700 for the bundle isn't in your project budget, you can pick up just the WavTerminal (USB) for about $225. Wish I could give you a product review, but it'll be a couple of weeks before I'm ready to make my purchase.
Hah, very true.. although the original poster meant that it charges the battery via the FireLink.
No, just based toward the Linux/Intel world. But you have a VERY good point. My favorite music software (I run on Windoze) was actually written for the Mac first. It is called Melody Assistant.
I use a PC to record audio out of home, often carrying a 14" display. I do so because I like my good old ISA Turtle Beach Tahiti. I see no reason to swith to another card as it is extremely high quality AND it moves data really really fast (my 486 mixes 3 simultaneous 44.1 kHz 16 bit reading them in real time from a normal IDE HD while recording the 4th one AND running a sequencer also, everything under Windown 3.11).
I've been thinking on two different approaches to avoid carrying the display. I've tested the first one and it works.
1. PC CPU (box) with your favourite soundcard + laptop, say some Pentium. Linux w/ X11 and ethernet cards (100 Mb) on both. Run your music software in the PC and export the display to the laptop. I've run something like this myself, being the PC a 486 and using 10 Mb ether, I've been able to run "soundtracker" which is just a tracker (hey, I said a 486). I believe this would work with serious music devel software, say octave.
2. I've been told (could anyone confirm this??) that PCMCIA is actually ISA, ie signals are the same, only physical differences (connector, housing) or at worst just voltage levels change. If this is so, "one" could just build (and eventually design and sell) some adaptor box to plug an ISA card directly to a laptop, perhaps it can be even passive or some simple buffering electronics.
Please tell me what you thing..
We've done something similar in building ISDN test rigs to carry about.
Basically, take a small form factor PC, and a small LDC monitor, and get the people who build the flight cases for your musical instruments to build a case around them.
Such an arrangement doesn't weigh an awful lot, you get full size(an hence high capacity) disks; PCI slots; even a CD-R. And it will probably work out cheaper than a laptop would.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?