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Carpal Tunnel Syndrome not a Disability
An Anonymous Coward writes: "It turns out that the Supreme Court of the United States doesn't think Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is a real disability. See here for details." Read the summary or the whole opinion. In a nutshell: just because a woman was sufficiently disabled that she couldn't perform her job due to carpal-tunnel, doesn't mean she was sufficiently disabled to be considered disabled under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Everyone who has that nagging pain in your wrists should probably read this decision.
First they instill a president no one votes for, then they start taking away our rights in favor of big business. How long before we have corporate branding directly on the justices robes?
My fingers are tingling....
Anybody know if this will affect those currently receiving disability for carpal tunnel and other related conditions?
www.lonseidman.com
wat d yu men its nt a disbilty?
In other cases it may be different, although they said it may be harder to prove, but still posssible to be considered disabled.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh bother.
Anyone who has a nagging pain in their wrists should learn how to use a keyboard properly.
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
CPS seemed pretty real when a friend of mine got it a couple of years back. She couldn't type or write much, which severely impeded her completing her academic studies. She had to get an automatic car (relatively unusual in the UK) so she could drive mostly one-handed. It caused her pain and discomfort for several months. If this isn't a disability under US law, then US law is broken.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
You're only disabled if you insist that the only work you can carry out is done with a keyboard! Get another job and stop being a slacker.
Besides, the carpal tunnel syndrome is self-inflicted just like alcoholism and drug use. You should have thought about ergonomics and periodic rest before ruining your physique with the unnatural typing posture.
Get this keyboard.
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
Lawsuit on carpal tunnel
Explain that to my brother , an airplane mechanic, who has had 3 surgeries to correct this problem. He has missed 24 months of work and can no longer play the guitar (his great pleasure in life). Not a disability my ass!!!! >:[
'mmmmmmmmm.... forbidden donut'
This is interesting. The court is basically saying that if you can do "everyday life tasks" (brushing your hair, cooking dinner, whatever), you're not disabled for the purposes of the ADA. But on my disability policy, it states that if I can't do my regular job, they consider me disabled. Since my job (like most of yours) involves lots of typing, losing both legs wouldn't make me disabled, but C-T would. So now the question is, how does this court decision affect my policy? Can I expect a call from my agent telling me they've changed their definition to line up with the court?
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
We're just not evolved for doing that sort of thing. They should make an input device that mimics the tools that we ARE evolved to use, like chopping flint handaxes. Not sure how it could be done though.
from a liberal masquerading as a troglodyte conservative to win brownie points with his troll liberal friends.
Interesting reading. The disability has to permanently impair "major life activities". Which means more than just the ability to perform the work in a certain job. So if your carpal tunnel syndrome prevents you from keyboarding, but not from driving, cooking, etc, and it's not permanent, it's not a disability. You mean that an inability to type isn't as disabling as losing a leg? Whoda thunk it.
Best Slashdot Co
Nowhere did it state that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome was not a disability -- it stated that in the case of the woman named, they were not considering it a disability because she was not impaired sufficently to be unable to do her job.
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
As one who suffers from various keyboard-related maladies, I only hope that common sense will prevail in the workplace and IT employers will continue to supply wrist braces and palmrests to those of us who so desperately need them.
Guess we're going to be needing these after all.
It's a pain in the ass to do them, but your wrists will thank you in five years. Young coders might feel invincible now, but any sort of 40hr+ work week will make quick work of the nerves in your hands and arms no matter how young you are.
Also check out this informative (if cute) prevention handbook.
-Erik
This doesn't mean that carpel tunnel isn't a disablity you dolts, it's a very serious problem. This woman's case simply didn't prove that her affliction was serious enough for her to be considered under the ADA.
I posted to
Sit in your chair properly.
Take simple preventative measures such as stretching to reduce pain and stress due to repeated tasks.
This has all been commonly known for years now, and most businesses will provide rudimentary ergonomic audits for their employees.
Everyone who has that nagging pain in your wrists should probably read this decision.
Too... sore... to... move... mouse.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
This doesn't mean that anyone with Carpel Tunnel can't be considered covered under the ADA, it means this specific case. As the article states, to fall under the ADA, you have to have a disability that limits all parts of your life, not just your work. Get a bad enough case where you can't open doors or some such, and the ADA would apply.
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
this is what happens when too many engineers file for Carpel Tunnel injuries that they claim were job-related, when they were actually personal life related...
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
In cases like Williams', "the central inquiry must be whether the claimant is unable to perform the variety of tasks central to most people's daily lives, not whether the claimant is unable to perform the tasks associated with her specific job," the court wrote.
Many people who are in the construction industry, for example, get a bad back over time or are otherwise affected physically over the years of that kind of labor. Many of those people move on to other types of jobs, possibly relating to construction management, sales, inspection, etc. Just because their body no longer allows them to perform one job does not mean they have become disabled.
On the other hand, if said construction worker cannot perform basic daily tasks, such as bathing or dressing, or cooking, they would be classified as disabled.
I Heart Sorting Networks
Of course, some common sense would tell you that there isn't too much difference between a guy working on an assembly line and a guy keying in data all day. Both are repetitive tasks, and both can cause physical damage if proper safeguards aren't taken.
The Supreme Court probably ruled this way to make sure none of those goddammed terrorist hackers ever got on disability
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
What bugs me about the Supremes is that George W. still hasn't added anyone to the bench. While I'm sure he will have a lot of help from President Cheney in making an intelligent choice, I'm pretty sure that if and when someone steps down his replacement will push the Supreme Court further to, what the average american Slashdot reader may consider, the loopy side of conservative.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, like being overweight (in most cases) is a condition that can easily be prevented, and we shoud stop rewarding people who refuse to take care of themselves.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Woah there moderators! Finish reading before you fire at me:
I've HAD three or four different maladies related to finger-hand-wrist related movement over the last, (oh god, has it been that long?) 15 years.
In all cases, the ones that were _computer_ related were cured by altering the work environment.
The one situation that eventually required surgery, and that was initially thought to be work related, wasn't. It was a Sports related injury. The fact that myself, the office Clinician, and the Workers Comp specified specialist didn't catch it as that is irrelevant. When the _hand_ specialist reviewed it, he stated it was a totally different problem (Intersection Syndrome, not Dequarvains Tendonitis) and not caused by lumping along at a keyboard during the work week.
That's not to say a company isn't liable for providing a safe environment for its employees, It is. But I wouldn't characterise CT as a modern equivalent of lead poisoning.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Then maybe they'd begin to empathize? Isn't funny how a bunch of (mostly partisan hack) appointees who don't know what real work is get to decide what you can take and what you must put up with?
As always the answer is: Move the government closer to the people.
Johnny Quest has two Daddies.
Isn't OSHA supposed to step in somewhere? Do companies actually not realize that it's in their interest to attempt to ensure that their workers' jobs can be performed without injuring them?
Also from the article:
So pursuing a livelihood doesn't meet the ADA criterion of "major life activity"?OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
Yes, exactly. Note that unanimous Supreme Court decisions are very rare in any case where there's substantial controversy -- I strongly suspect that this individual really didn't have very strong case (or maybe she had a really lousy lawyer.) I would be very surprised if this case turned out to set any significant precedent.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Take Aikido.
Aikido focuses on joint locks, which include wrist locks. After taking Aikido you will quickly have wrists that can withstand the rigors of typing. Flexible wrists are the key to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome, IMO, and Aikido is the key to flexible wrists.
Or you could just wait for speach recognition.
Which of course she responded to by filing a lawsuit.
Could someone please correct the spelling of the disorder in the body of this story. It's CARPAL not CARPEL, a reference to the eight small bones that make up the wrist. While I usually ignore minor spelling and grammatical errors (you occasionally have to on Slashdot), the fact that the actual disorder-in-question is repeatedly misspelled (beyond just a simple typo) is a little much.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
There are several excerises for the prevention ff the Carpel Tunnel Sindrome Here.
Anybody who spends lots of time in front the computer should check that link
The article simply says that in this case, the woman was not disabled to the point she could not perform her daily tasks. It explicitly says:
The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties.
I wonder if the court has a list of manual tasks/duties that if you cannot perform, constitute being disabled.
I Heart Sorting Networks
You better watch your step, buster, or the U.S. Supreme Court, brought to you by Microsoft, Nike and Starbucks, will find you in contempt!
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
But I may have to quit my second job as a toothpaste cap technician at night.
<not trying to troll, just cynical about all three branches of the federal government, sorry...>
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
In its brief on the merits, petitioner asks us to reinstate the District Court's grant of summary judgment to petitioner on the manual task issue. In its petition for certiorari, however, petitioner did not seek summary judgment; it argued only that the Court of Appeals' reasons for granting partial summary judgment to respondent were unsound. This Court's Rule 14(1)(a) provides: "Only the questions set out in the petition, or fairly included therein, will be considered by the Court." The question whether petitioner was entitled to summary judgment on the manual task issue is therefore not properly before us. See Irvine v. California, 347 U.S. 128, 129--130 (1954).
Accordingly, we reverse the Court of Appeals' judgment granting partial summary judgment to respondent and remand the case for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
This decision just means that if you can't do one thing, but could do something else, it's not your employer's responsibility to accommodate you -- it's your responsibility to find a job that you can do. I don't think this really changes things for people who have disabilities (e.g., blindness) which would require accommodation in almost all circumstances. And it certainly doesn't single out carpel tunnel as not being a disability. If you had a case of carpel tunnel that made it difficult for you to do most jobs, ADA would still apply.
-Esme
See, it's not only the 'liberal' judges who believe in judicial activism. If my reading of the summary (linked above) is correct, the Supreme Court misinterpreted the ADA in a rather severe way. This law was meant to protect and help people who have difficulty performing their job. But the Supreme Court demanded a higher standard, requiring that the person have difficulty not only at work but in other areas. Sounds like a crock of it to me...
Now, since I am too lazy to read the history, what exactly was Toyota suing for? What sort of accomadations was the woman seeking?
And another point: should their be an OSHA investigation? I know as part of our company training, protecting employees from CTS and other RSI's is largely the responsibility of the employer. Failure to provide keyboards, desks, etc. that ameliorate these conditions is an OSHA violation. (And, yes, much of OSHA is big brotherism at its worst. I'm not saying, in this case, whether or not OSHA's decisions are correct, but that it seems Toyota contributed to this woman's condition).
And I tell you what: there's about five minutes worth of my shower that gets pretty darned impaired if my wrists are flaring up too badly. If that doesn't count as a disability, what does?
(Yup, think that covers it all: troll, insightful, humourous, Oh, need a flame: You suck, your momma sucks, your computer sucks, your OS sucks, and your editor sucks)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
The article mentions that one is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act if one's disability prevents one from doing "major life activities", tasks which are "central to most people's daily lives". This woman didn't qualify as she was able to perform tasks at home and at work.
It seems to me, though, that your job would qualify as a "major life activity", and should fall under the umbrella of being able to care for (ie. support financially) oneself. At least she still has her job (I'm assuming).
"Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
Maybe this confirms my thinking that the mouse is an ergonomic nightmare and one should stay away from GUI-centric editors and do it all on the keyboard.
The US Supreme Court did NOT rule that CTS is NOT a disability. They ruled that whatever disability you have has to preclude you from leading a normal life.
From the link to the decision, scroll down toward the bottom of the page:
" The District Court noted that at the time respondent sought an accommodation from petitioner,
she admitted that she was able to do the manual tasks required by her original two jobs in QCIO.
App. to Pet. for Cert. A--36. In addition, according to respondent's deposition testimony, even
after her condition worsened, she could still brush her teeth, wash her face, bathe, tend her flower
garden, fix breakfast, do laundry, and pick up around the house. App. 32--34. The record also
indicates that her medical conditions caused her to avoid sweeping, to quit dancing, to occasionally
seek help dressing, and to reduce how often she plays with her children, gardens, and drives long
distances. Id., at 32, 38--39. But these changes in her life did not amount to such severe
restrictions in the activities that are of central importance to most people's daily lives that they
establish a manual-task disability as a matter of law. On this record, it was therefore inappropriate
for the Court of Appeals to grant partial summary judgment to respondent on the issue whether
she was substantially limited in performing manual tasks, and its decision to do so must be
reversed."
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
No wonder the unions took up her cause.
And you people laughed at the venerable senator Rodham-Clinton for expressing a similar sentiment a few years ago...
There's no reason to even let CTS become an issue to you; work out your hand while you're sitting there mulling over a piece of code and not only will it make your hands feel a lot more nimble, it'll sooth the inflammation that causes that numb feeling.
I have no personal investment in these things, this isn't a plug. Just something I started doing once my fingers got numb one day and the effect was nearly immediate, my hand felt better within a few hours.
For the link dependent, here is another person saying pretty much the same thing (with some other ideas, which I'm not exactly prepared to try out ;).
"an individual must have an impairment that prevents or severely restricts the individual from doing activities that are of central importance to most people's daily lives"
I don't know about them, but being able to work and support myself (ie. keep living) is of sorta central importance to my life..
While I agree about computer usage, CT can be caused by other factors. For example: we just had our first kid. As we found out, CT can sometimes be brought on by hormone fluctuations post-partum. This is the case with my wife. I've never known anyone with severe CT, but now I know how excruciating it can be. She's often unable to lift our child and she certainly can't drive a car. It may be temporary (we certainly hope so), but in the meantime, it's pretty debilitating.
But, the ADA test is still if the disability affects major life acitivities, not just working.
Many states have a different definition for disability. In Mass, if you are injured on the job, you are automatically considered disabled.
Of course, the definition for disability is always different. SSDI defines disbility different from the ADA which is different from the state version of the ADA which is different from workers comp. definition of disability which is different from an insurance companies definition of disability.
Fight Spammers!
I read an article a while back that claimed that the cause of most carpal tunnel syndrome was the use of the mouse rather than the keyboard.
From personal experience being a programming who has used dvorak for 3 years, and using as many keyboard shortcuts as possible, I've never had a problem with carpal tunnel.
Flame the President all you want, but this isn't something he decided.
This was the Supreme Court.
The courts are being used to finally stop the abuse of the ADA. It should interesting to see what happens when the "compulsive behaviour" abuses make it to the court.
Essentially they are stating, theres a big difference between being disabled and inconvienenced. The law was meant to help the truly disabled, not those who are lazy, or have good lawyers. (and I won't go into to alcholics)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Sure, the person can cook. What with? You can't live on thin air alone, and if you change career tracks, you're often faced with massively expensive education to get the bits of paper you need. Oh, and education means lots of writing (which is painful for someone with CTS).
So, no job, no prospect of getting another job in the same field, and no prospect of being able to change fields.
Essentially, the Supreme Court has ruled that it is legal to abandon someone to a life of welfare, which WE have to pay for, because THEY don't want the political hastle involved in actually providing any kind of support.
Mind you, this isn't the first time. They ruled that a pilot who was legally blind was not disabled, because the person could fly an aircraft, even though the company the pilot flew for had sacked them, for being legally blind, which the Supreme Court then ruled was not discriminatory, because the person had a disability that prevented them from working.
The world is a crazy place, at times. The rest of the time, it's a complete loony bin.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I'd not be surprised at all to see a decision like this coming out of congress or the White House - things there are, for all intents and purposes, up for sale, and there are mountains of interests falling all overthemselves to bury CTS and other RSIs... Bringing a little bit more of the 3rd world home every day, I like to say.
It's not just white collar employers like Microsoft who want to see CTS swept under the rug. It's _everybody_. The garment industry. Manufacturing consortia. Even agricultural concerns have RSI risk factors on the job. And it's just (gushing) _so_ much cheaper (gasping) if the problem doesn't exist.
Thus, there's virutally endless money for brave politicians to step up and try to protect industry (and government) from responsibility for RSI injuries. The surprising thing about this is that it's _not_ congress or the White House. It's the Supremes.
The judiciary is, for all its flaws, relatively free of the kind of quid pro quo corruption you see in elected officials... at least in it's higher echelons, and certainly the supremes. Or at least it has been.
This year may spell the beginning of the end of that, with GWBush's rather blatant repayment for Scalia's 11th hour election decision, and, I suppose, with this decision. I hope there is adequate scrutiny of these justices; I had assumed there was, but now I am starting to wonder.
We're on the road to Tycho.
Two hours ago you were bashing opportunistic lawyers in regard to the German SuSE case, and now you are whining because the supreme court said that the same type of ambulance chaser lawyer can't sue over a "disability" that is minor in comparison to real disabilities.
This decision is a victory for freedom, and limited government interference. It's also a victory for people with real disabilities.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I used to have early symptom of CT on my right wrist. I guess due to improper mouse usage posture. I immediately switched to a Logitech Trackball, it helps a whole lot. Within 3 weeks, I got rid of the pain.
For those of you that have CT related to using the mouse, consider using a trackball.
(b) The Sixth Circuit erred in suggesting that, in order to prove a substantial limitation in the major life activity of performing manual tasks, a plaintiff must show that her manual disability involves a "class" of manual activities, and that those activities affect the ability to perform tasks at work...
Strictly speaking the court made no ruling on Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. What they asserted was that this woman was not disabled and that the criteria for proving disability which the lower court employed were incorrect.
This does set the bar high for proving disability but the door to employing people in knowingly injurious jobs was already open. You can thank Tom Delay for that when he killed the workplace ergonomics Legislation the Clinton had Passed.
The article also points out:" The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties. "
The Supreeme Court doesn't look at how good the case was. They look at how the law was interpreted. She may have had a bad lawyer, but that doesn't mean that, in theory, lower courts aren't supposed to follow the highest court's descision.
You cannot fire an alcoholic, since he/she is 'disabled'. But if a programmer or other computer worker cannot use their hands, that isn't a disability.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Fight Spammers!
It's ok if it's not a disability as long as I can still use it as an excuse for misspelling words.
I had serious problems with CTS in the early 1990's. My Karate teacher taught me to do exercises almost exactly like the site you link, and it worked wonders for me. I had visited specialists and was on the verge of surgery (your strength is never the same afterward).
After doing exercises each night for several months, my CTS was basically nullified. I still have to do the exercises, and I still have to be careful of how much work I do with my wrists, but I've avoided surgery for almost a decade.
For those interested, see the site above. I made 10 fists in front of me (as in the pictures), then I made 10 fists with my hands above my head. Then 10 with hands down at sides, then 10 with hands straight out left and right.
Finally, (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY), bend your palms and fingers back to stretch the carpal area. This is what really achives the benefit. After the exercise, you stretch to increase your range of motion and decrease the swelling.
FWIW, it worked for me.
I think one piece of wisdom we can garner from this case is that it is important to keep good records of when you worked, what your medical conditions are, and your employer's evaluations. Perhaps it is good to be evaluated by impartial physicians as well.
Disability cannot be assessed by looking only at someone's fitness to work, the court said.
Cut-and-dried. Maybe the woman's condition really did prevent her from doing everyday stuff. But the federal court's reason was based solely on the impact of her CTS at work. Therefore, the SC is saying that no matter what the facts may have been, the legal reasoning used by the federal court was wrong.
I've just recently started to have some pains in my wrists and arms. Typing doesn't bother me, but using the mouse does. It feels like the daily mouse use is affecting my ability to grip smaller objects. I've been switching the mouse between my left and right hands, but there's still discomfort and it's definately not improving. What are others doing to deal with this problem?
You are a dork.
You need to die.
Die Billy Die.
Please die so that they may bury you in that burlap sack.
Hey, and take that damn BSD is dead troll and Stephen King is dead troll with you
Blah Blah Blah.
Where did they say that it's not a disability? They just said the employers don't have to tailor jobs for people.
If memory serves, this woman had worked for Toyota in an assembly plant for a number of years. Over time, her carpal tunnel syndrome developed and resulted in significant absenteeism. After UAW-Management mediation, Toyota reassigned her to a job that was less physically demanding, e.g., inspecting the paint on new cars. While at that task, her attendance record improved dramatically. Unfortunately, after a time Toyota management again reassigned her to assembly work in circumstances that aggravated her carpal tunnel syndrome and again resulted in absenteeism due to chronic pain. I don't recall whether she quit or was fired prior to the filing of this lawsuit.
The Supremes have ruled that Toyota is not obligated to provide a job for this woman, nor to provide reasonable accommodation in any existing job, because the carpal tunnel syndrome she suffers from does not significantly limit "major life activities" -- meaning, she can still drive, care for her own hygiene, hold a less physically demanding job, etc.
In my view, Toyota is both a good guy and a bad guy here. After making a reasonable accommodation by transfering its employee to the paint shop, it then put her back in the circumstance that was a significant factor in the development of her carpal tunnel syndrome. Initially nice, then heartless. However, Toyota is in the right about asserting no responsibility to employ her because, as noted by the Supremes, its former employee is perfectly capable of choosing a less physically demanding career path, with equal if not better economic opportunities.
This is similar to a construction foreperson saying she will not hire me for the physically demanding job of digging trenches if I suffer from obesity, chronic back pain, and uncontrolled hypertension. I'm simply not suited to the job.
That being said, it sucks to be the plaintiff.
MacOS, Windows, BeOS, GNOME, KDE: they're all just Xerox copies
I guess that means that persistent pain in my ass can't be considered a disability, just my girlfriend. :p - yes, i'm kidding.
sheesh, don't you have anything better to do?
Moreover, Justice O' Connor pointed out that the test under the ADA is whether or not a person's disability affects his or her to perform normal daily tasks--not his or her ability to perform a specific job.
In fact, the ADA specifically states that this is the test. As Justice O'Connor wrote, "Repetitive work with hands and arms extended at or above shoulder levels for extended periods is not an important part of most people's daily lives," O'Connor wrote. "Household chores, bathing and brushing one's teeth, in contrast, are among the types of manual tasks of central importance to people's daily lives." In sharp contrast to the rather extreme and dire view suggested by the story posting <rant>(which, in my view, is either misleading and downright shameful or simply reflects a total lack of understanding of the decision and the governing laws)</rant>, the Justices did not rule on the validity of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome; they simply verified the intention of the ADA as written and asked the lower court to reconsider its decision.
In this case, the court held that the woman was not impaired in normal daily tasks, in spite of the fact that she was impaired in her job. There is a critical distinction here, and I firmly agree with the limitations placed on the ADA by the court here.
-db
I'm confused. Isn't this the same court that said Casey could join the PGA tour with his bad legs?
I guess the supremes must be frustated golfers who never worked a line.
Now lets start on all those pampered middle class wasters pining away, telling us how terrible their poor miserable lifes are with ME/CFS.
F*cking freeloading b*stards! 'tis a running kick up the arse they need. They would soon get motivated & all the energy they need if there wasnt some idiot stupid enough to fall for that crap. Hunger beats CFS anyday.
Curmudgeon
The decision was unanimous, meaning that conservative and liberal judges alike agreed to this. This is not a valid stick with which to beat up on conservatives.
I am not sure how many of you read Populer Sciance, but thay had a study in their that found C-P is casue by life. Thay found that people who use the keyboard all day(programes, etc) did not show more or less cases of C-P then the avagrage person.
Of course if we all used them ergonomic keyboards we should be ok. I also think their are some better keyboards out their in the wired shapes that spouse to be better for the hands.
The next thing you will see is insurance companies will lobby to pass a law that CTS not eligible for any compensation anymore.
The worst thing is to have bad laws stacking up on each other.
Since we're talking CTS (Carpal tunnel), anyone used Chinese Exercise balls to relieve pain or provide alternative motion for wrist and finger muscles? For those who don't know, they look a lot cooler than a dirty stress ball. I just ordered a pair and want to try them for my CTS that has been getting worse lately.
As many others have already pointed out, this ruling is on what is considered a disability under the ADA, which is an American law that provides the minimum which everyone (employers, shopkeepers, public transportation, etc.) must do to accomodate disability. For example, I believe that it's the ADA which forces businesses that wouldn't normally allow pets on the premises to nevertheless accept seeing-eye dogs.
This ruling has no bearing on whether or not carpal tunnel could be considered a disability under, say, a worker's compensation law. It merely states that in order to invoke the power of the ADA ones disability must extend to basic life tasks; merely making ones job impossible is insufficient.
However, if your friend was forced to get a specially equipped car, then her disability was much more severe than the disability in this case, and in all likelihood meets the standard the court set in this case for invoking the ADA.
Well, to put it plainly, carpel tunnel is caused by not knowing how to type or use a mouse correctly. So in other words, it's something you bring upon yourself. If carpel tunnel is a disability, would that make smoking a disability too?
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
Can I get Carpel Tunnal from masterbating.
Damit, I might have to find a girl Friend.
Admit it, you old sodomist!
I've got a nagging pain in my wrists due to repetetive motions and it may even be Carpal Tunnel. Even if it was considered a disability, I hardly think that I could receive any compensation other than the monthly ammount I pay for premium binary newsgroup access.
Gotta go. There's a massive flood on alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.bluebird.reposts.
Ow. Ow. Ouch.
I have reached the point where I can't use my right hand with the mouse for more than half an hour. So, I switched the button order and started using my left hand. After 2 weeks my left hand was nearly as fast as my right, and I have no more problems. I figure that by the time my left hand eventually develops a problem, my right will be ready again and I'll switch back and forth every other day.
Go into the Hospital and get her wrists operated on. Once they've been cut open and require time to heal and physical therapy, she should easily qualify for disabled.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
...there's a simple fix for those of us who may be in the early stages of carpel tunnel and at least pain relief for those who already have it: go get yourself a keyboard & pointing device that doesn't screw up your wrists. Personally, I used to do email tech support - over 300 emails in 8 hours (yes, some were scripted; even still, my wrists/hands were NUMB at the end of the day.) The fix? $170 keyboard - Kinesis Ergo (www.kinesis-ergo.com) countoured keyboard. Yes, it took 3 weeks to get used to it, and people looked @ me funny in the beginning - but hell, we're IT people, we expect that. My wrists stopped hurting after about 2 months of using that keyboard. (No I don't work for kinesis) - In fact, I'm eyeing the DataHand (www.datahand.com) for my next keyboard...
Light at the end of the carpal tunnel.
--
The Cap is nigh. Time to get a fresh new account.
pinhead.
This was the Surpreme Court. The white house has nothing to do with it.
And has president Butthead.... I mean Bush appointed any judges to the court........ um - no.
While this case doesn't get into the issues of whether or not CT is a disability (leaving it as a case by case basis probably to avoid setting a precedent) - this isn't quite the right case for CT arguers to champion. Her employer did actually make some attempts to keep her employed at the company by shifting her work. (I believe the last case that got significant media attention also had the same situation) If employers make reasonable attempts to keep the person employed, the employee loses significant ground for lawsuits.
Of this:
/ 11 /29/suit/
http://www.salon.com/health/sex/urge/world/1999
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In fact, the article clearly states:
The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties.
Well, for starters, the Court did not rule that carpal tunnel syndrom is not a disability. They ruled that the woman in question was not disabled from carpal tunnel syndrome.
The law already makes clear just what this snippet from the article says. I think that in many cases, employers and insurance companies are concerned with the political backlash that may come from a close interpretation (that is, applying the law as written) of the law.
Nonetheless, the law is clear that you aren't disabled if you can't perform your job...there is a much broader test to be satisfied to determine a disability.
Certainly there would be a big bonanza for the plaintiff if an ADA violation was proved, but I wonder if this would have been more appropriately handled as a Workman's Compensation case? After all, she claimed that her injury came from a work-related situation...that seems tailor-made for a Workman's Comp case.
Of course, the cynical side of my must point out there there is a lot more money to be had from an ADA lawsuit...
-h-
Anyhow. Going through his chart I noted that he had a long history of letting his glycemic control get out from under him. He was a little out of it (thanks to the DKA) but was awake enough to give a pretty decent history. He was feeling a little off for a few days, but basically ignored it. Made no adjustments to his insulin regimen, nor did he seek medical attention until he was in pretty rough metabolic shape.
I asked some pretty basic questions to get an idea of his disease state. He'd been diabetic from a very young age, always controlled with insulin, but didn't have a glucometer with which to check his blood sugar. Every diabetic should be checking their blood sugars with some degree of regularity. Why didn't he have one? He couldn't afford it.
Couldn't afford it? Oooookay. I knew he hadn't been living with his parents for a few years, so he was out and fending for himself. Fair enough, but I gathered that he had to have some sort of income... not only to pay his rent, but to explain the Tommy Hilfiger branded shirt, designer jeans, and brand new Nikes he was wearing on his feet. So I asked him what he did for a living.
"Nothing. I'm on disability."
"Oh? What for?" I asked, thinking I had missed something. Instead he looked at me like he thought I was completely looney-tunes.
"For diabetes, of course." He snorted.
Not only was this guy munching up our public medical system's budget with his repeated and mostly preventable frequent flyer visits to the emergency department, but he was receiving government funding for his "disability". Sure, his diabetes was poorly controlled, but not because of the disease itself, but because this guy basically didn't give a flying fuck.
Ultimately, I don't know what pissed me off more. There, of course, is the fact that this guy was milking his disease for disability benefits when thousands upon thousants of diabetics work and live and survive in the real world just fine, thank you. On top of that, some physician somewhere, at some time, had to sign the papers designating his patient as qualifying for government assistance because of his diabetes. I mean, crap, if I have asthma, can I get a cheque too?
Granted, there's probably a whole psychosocial dimension to the story I haven't explored, but the entire situation does have to strike you as being more than a little absurd. To get back to the Slashdot story, I do think that there are musculoskeletal conditions that affect the wrists enough to severely impair one's ability to perform a great number of tasks, as well as being distressingly painful to boot. But a large majority of people who have repetitive strain injuries or "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" can benefit from antiinflammatories, physiotherapy, and appropriate work modification (ergonomics and the like). They're probably not permanently disabled and in need of financial assistance. Save the money for the people who really need it.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
sss ribbut
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
From hearing this from NPR months ago (so the details are sketchy at best), the woman Williams was originally on the Toyota assembly line doing body/final touch work that involved repeative hand motions. She developed CTS on the job, and Toyota moved her to a desk position for some time after it was diagnosed. However, some time later, Toyota moved her back onto the plant floor, giving her a job that involved some reaching up to the top of cars and vans (though this was not the full duty of her job); this irridated her CTS and she complained to the management but they refused to move her from that job, or otherwise she would have been fired. She then filed the lawsuit for discrimination, which did go her way in two lower courts.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Or, better yet, learn dvorak. I know a quite a few people with carpal tonal problems that switched and quit having trouble. A couple of good links:
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/
This site has a lot of general information about it.
http://www.karelia.com/abcd/
This is a really good tutorial that I used. I was able to switch in about three days.
Perception is reality
is hitting ctrl-n with only your left hand. sends shooting pains....
I'm sure this will be good news to my mother, who had surgery for carpal tunnel in the 70's. I guess it was just all in her head.
IANAL, AIDPOOTV
Half right. The quality of the case is not the criteria the decision is based on, but it is a limiting factor in how sweeping the decision can be -- and how binding a precedent can be as well. IMHO, they have not so much struck down CTS as an ADA covered disability, as said that it takes more than a diagnosis.
The States is *so* ready for a revolution it's not even funny.
On the contrary, this is a very significant case. It lays out the general rules for determining whether a major life function is impaired. Since CT may or may not rise to that level of impairment in individual cases, they must be sorted out individually. This one is being sent back for that to happen.
You evolved into being designed to chop flint-axes? Yeesh. People will believe anything these days...
Reuters (as published via Yahoo news) seems to interpret this as having a much more far reaching effect than this one case:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a decision that may affect millions of Americans, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled on Tuesday that a landmark 1990 federal law protecting the disabled from discrimination only covered physical impairments that prevented them from carrying out tasks important to daily life.
The SC probably wouldn't get involved on the factual merits of an individual case, they are in the business of overseeing the interpretation of law, no?
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
OK she has carpal tunnel..so do I (I'm 25 years old) if my pain becomes too much I'll get another job. It sucks but its the way it goes. Why should a company spend money to make the machines work in a way that does not hurt? Find a new profession ...stop bitching and stop filing lawsuits that waste money...pathetic
======== In the future, everything will be artificial. ========
Earlier this year was the Post Office case where the court determined that facilities to accomodate handicapped individuals at the local post office were cost prohibitive and so didn't have to be provided. Then there was I believe a case related to a new definition of occupational disabilities. This is the next.
This court has made it its personal crusade to tear down the ADA as well as most or all occupational disability statutes. Rehnquist basically said as much, the disability regulations are frivolous.
The employer appeared to bend over backwards to her, and when they started giving a little, she tried taking a lot.
:P
My company does what it can to help as well, with Herman-Miller chairs, ergonomic keyboards, mousepad wrist rests, and workstation furniture that is fully adjustable. You can't do much more than that imo... since cubemates would get irrated at a voice recognition system that interprets verilog and C++.
"always... symbol at... symbol left parenthesis... posedge... variable see ell kay... symbol right parenthesis... begin... newline..."
They have different purposes.
Your insurance policy is supposed to protect you against loss of income.
The ADA is supposed to help people who would otherwise be unable to participate in society participate. The idea is that if you're so disabled that you can't ever perform everyday tasks, it'll be impossible for you to get any type of job without government interference.
They basically have completely different purposes (income protection vs. discrimination protection), so there's no reason for the two to correlate.
Now, it's a much more difficult area than other types of non-discrimination laws as its requires active effort on the part of companies. (ie. no special measures are needed to comply with anti-racial-discrimination laws other than not being racist, but to comply with the ADA you might need to adjust your work processes around the disabled person or build special equipment like ramps or something.) But the resemblance to disability insurance is more coincidental than anything else.
If memory serves me correctly, this is the woman that "can not perform her job properly" anymore. She got CT from masturbating, she is a phone sex operator. She made news here in the Atlanta area a few months back.
Now, I'm only assuming this is the same woman, since what was mentioned here in the Atlanta area said that she was going to take this thing all the way to the Supreme Court and sue under the ADA.
The system is flawed because nitwits like this keep abusing the system.
On a different note, I'm very double-jointed -- many years back, I tried to join the Army. I aced the ASVAB, but failed the physical due to "extreme double-jointedness". The army doctor/nurse/whatever-he-was gave me papers to get a handicap tag for my car... Never used it. I can walk just fine... It's shit like this that pisses me off.
--Xan
"Congratulations, Boots. Your robot has become self-aware. You're a daddy now." -- Dr. Rho Bowman
This space intentionally left blank.
should get a better keyboard, mouse, and desk chair. The responsibility for PREVENTING this condition is yours. If your employer won't spring for the stuff you need, get it yourself, or get a new job. This condition is PREVENTABLE. It's your job to look after your tools. If you type, your hands are your tools.
Try doing 3 years of continuous data entry with a 450lbs gorilla threatening to sit on your arms because you are not typing fast enough. Just because you can run 5 blocks does not mean that you can finish the Boston Marathon.
...isn't my wrists but in my hands. What gets me is on the back of the hand abive the wrist, straight across from the base of my double-jointed thumbs (where the veins usually meet). I think it has to do with the way I mouse. I mouse with my fingertips, not my palm. My palm isn't rested on the mouse but is instead held up by my fingertips. I think that's what does it to me.
Not to mention bloodthirsty killers. They are basically cowards though, so instead of doing the job themselves and getting their hands or bibles dirty, they get the government to do their killing for them.
I'd prefer not to say any more about the US right wing. Their evilness speaks for itself.
Actually, i use a different technique Than the one which is taught to be proper - i learned on my own
;-)
Typing technique is not the main issue. You can type with two fingers and still manage to avoid CTS. Posture and elevation of the wrists, distance from the keyboard, etc... are what's important. If you want to brag, go talk to Mavis Beacon.
I typed faster than the techer
Good for you, now try working on your accuracy
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
RTFA
Congress intended the existence of a disability to be determined in such a case-by-case manner.
...
An individualized assessment of the effect of an impairment is particularly necessary when the impairment is one such as carpal tunnel syndrome, in which symptoms vary widely from person to person.
It was not decided that the Americans with Disabilities Act didn't protect CTS. It was decided that in this woman's case, her specific form of CTS wasn't a disability under the ADA. In order for someone with CTS to be protected by the ADA, their form of CTS must "severely limit major life actives."
Rather, the central inquiry must be whether the claimant is unable to perform the variety of tasks central to most people's daily lives. Also without support is the Sixth Circuit's assertion that the question whether an impairment constitutes a disability is to be answered only by analyzing the impairment's effect in the workplace.
...
Moreover, because the manual tasks unique to any particular job are not necessarily important parts of most people's lives, occupation-specific tasks may have only limited relevance to the manual task inquiry
That speaks for itself. Just because your impairment won't let you perform your job, its not a disability, and your not protected by the ADA. So, we return to CTS. For many of us, it WOULD impair MAJOR life activity. IANAL, however I think that you would have a hard time of it in court.
--Cam
All jocks think about is sports. All nerds think about is sex.
Get a real opinion you Right wing yokel.
A lot of folks here have very cavalier attitude about buying a keyboard and setting up the appropriate environment to avoid RSI and where I agree with what everyone is saying I don't believe it is the employee's responsibility to provide the environment. I just left a major financial institution that was ergonomicly aware for a small health insurance company who doesn't seem to know the first thing about RSI.
I am sitting in a folding chair at a simple pressed board desk. My arms are probably at a 75 degree angle (my elbows are actually lower then the top of the desk). After requesting equipment I have given up and brought in my own keyboard, and installed keyboard drawer. I will probably replace the chair at the end of the week.
Sean.OutaHere()
- She wasn't moved to a desk job, but moved to an assembly floor position that didn't require as much manual labor. Specifically she was assigned to a quality control team which did four QC-related tasks, she initially was assigned to rotate between two of the four, two which didn't aggrevate her CTS. Management then got the bright idea to make everyone on the team to rotate through all four tasks, the other two which did aggrevate Williams' CTS.
- The district court (Eastern District of Kentucky) found for Toyota ("granted summary judgement for petitioner" in SCOUS terms means the person in front of the "v."). The Sixth Circut court overturned the district court, ignoring the fact that Williams didn't seem to have any problems keeping up with her hygine and household chores (which appears to be a requirement to qualify for ADA protection.)
-sk*want* to be disabled. People fighting for jobs that they can't do, and they want a company to make the job somehow 'doable' for them.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and other repetitive strain injuries suck. But Toyota and other companies need certain tasks to be performed... tasks too expensive to automate robotically or otherwise. And its just plain smart business sense to hire and retain people who can do jobs, as opposed to people who can't. Actually, Toyota moved the woman involved in this case to an easier, less straining job. But eventually, all tasks become repetitive...
If a pilot of a jetliner for a major airline goes blind, are we outraged if he is fired or forced into retirement? Or are special neural implants required for this man's disability, much like in Star Trek? Listen, its too bad people get disabled... but that's all it is, *too bad*. It doesn't become a companies responsibility to tend to this person's every need. All a job is, is a contract to give one person money in exchange for services.
Otherwise, Wouldn't Schitzophrenia or Turrets Syndrome be a disability? Would you want a schitzophrenic or a Turrets person doing sales for your company?
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
Bah, who am I kidding, we're all bipolar board trolls.
...or beavis and butthead get smarter:
Beavis:
'Uh-huh-huh, you said "repetative motion", your honour...uh-huh-huh-huh.'
Butthead:
'Is that why they wear those robes, Beavis?'
Beavis:
Well, eeeheeeheeheee, we submit to the court...
Butthead:
Huh-huh, you said submit.
(SMACK)
Beavis:
Quiet! That one man's "repetitave motion" is another man's life activity... Just look at my associate....
Butthead:
You said Ass...Hey, shut up Beavis, don't make me kick your ass again.
{and no, I did not read the article, seeing as +4 posts explained all I needed to know quite well, thank you}
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Or take kickboxing. After a couple years worth of breaks and bruises, you won't care much about piddly little wrist injuries. My wrists hurt too, but it's nothing compared to the 2-piece sternum I've been walking around with. Seriously, though: the ADA is for people who are unable to compensate for their own disabilities, and require assistance from the rest of the world. Wheelchairs and blindness qualify. Painful joints don't.
Lack of creativity is no excuse for not having a
*you* try getting a decent chair out of my HR department :-(
Sorry, but using a Dvorak keyboard layout isn't the magic bullet you might hope. I've been using Dvorak for several years, but it hasn't really helped my wrist pains at all. Qwerty may not be great for a lot of reasons, but Dvorak is not really any better for RSI, especially for programmers (who have to reach farther for the more commonly used [] keys). Basically, while Dvorak is nice, it is still important to follow all the normal ergonomic advice.
The enemies of Democracy are
Again, IANAL, but my understanding is that the fact could very well be that the woman had such a bad case of CTS that she can't in fact do everyday stuff well or at all.
The problem from the SC's POV is that the federal court used faulty legal reasoning in deciding for the woman, the faulty reasoning being that the "disability" has to extend beyond the scope of work-related duties.
So in U.S. law, it's not if you win or lose, it's how you win or lose that counts. In this case the SC said the federal court screwed up and misinterpreted a law, irrespective of the facts surrounding the case.
To actually read the underlying judgment, and the extensive news coverage of the company's attempts at accomodation would take time away from composing witty on-line flames.
Yours truly,
Mr. X
...NPR had excellent coverage of this story from the beginning...
Then if you're in a wheel-chair, and can still brush your teeth, then you're not disabled?!?!?!?!?! Do you have to be a quadraplegic vegetable to be considered disabled??????????
;)
Btw, I'm 24 and have cronic tendonitis, too much wacking I guess.
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboards and gel-pads are your FRIEND.
Liquid Gaming - Your daily dose of gaming news
It's still a disability. It's just not a disability as defined by the ADA. The woman was not suing her employer under some employment disability clause, she was saying they violated the ADA.
If it WAS, many other things would have to be done.. like, doorhandles changed on every public buildling so someone with CTS could open it, etc.
The real cause of CTS. LOL. I always could swear that I felt a fish wiggling around. ;)
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
I was one of the first to post here, just after the article went up. I tried to follow the link, but got no response in a few attempts, so assumed a /.ing. Presumably others found likewise. Fortunately, someone's been good enough to post the relevant snippet a few posts up -- thanks.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I've noticed a very good trend in recent Supreme Court decisions: they have been very strict in their interpretation of laws passed by congress.
All courts in recent times have largely ignored the actual wording of the Constitution and simply made stuff up. Personally, I think this is bad, but the Constitution is vague or silent in many areas, and it's very hard to fix because the amendment process is so difficult. So I can sort of see why it happens.
However, in the last few decades, the Supreme Court has routinely done the same with laws passed by congress. There is really very little excuse for this; congress can and does change laws all the time. However, in the last few years, this has largely stopped. The Supreme Court now seems to be interpreting laws passed by congress as written. A very good thing if you believe in representative democracy and the rule of law. It will force congress to write clear laws and explicitly change them when necessary.
are messed up If you are still ABLE to work, you are handicapped not disabled.
I think sometime in the near future, we may see computer use start to be considered "an important part of most people's daily lives."
It lays out the general rules for determining whether a major life function is impaired.
This has already been done by the supreme court.
I know the friend I posted about earlier very well. She had been using a computer for several years, and was well aware of how to set up a workstation in terms of seating position, keyboard position, etc. I saw her room often enough to know that she acted on that knowledge. Much good it did her.
A lot of "experts" claim that there's no medical evidence supporting CTS, or that it's completely preventable and/or all in the mind. And yet, there are an increasing number of cases where people who've followed all the "good practices" still somehow get it. Anyone would think the experts might be wrong.
Maybe that's why the new keyboard I got at work has a big sticker on the bottom, claiming that any keyboard use over extended periods could be harmful, and disclaiming responsibility for any injury caused by repetitive use.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Guess we're going to be needing these [carpal tunnel exercises] after all.
What about these exercises?
Will I retire or break 10K?
She had to get an automatic car (relatively unusual in the UK) so she could drive mostly one-handed.
Not sure what the relevance of the rarity of automatic transmissions in the UK has on this story, unless you are speaking of someone that lives in the UK. Perhaps you are pointing out how backwards the people in the UK are unless they have an injury. No telling from your writing style.
Any ole' ways, if someone is supposed to be the ward of a corporation for life in the UK, because they are afflicted by a temporary condition, that DOES NOT prevent them from doing other work and does not impact their daily life then it is the UK that is broken, not the USA.
Please, compair and contrast the space exploration programs, military prowess, general commercial developments, inventions and quality of life between the UK and the USA and defend your statement.
BTW, the standard transmission in the USA is an automatic. The modern automatic transmissions can now take heavier loads than manuals. If properly maintained automatics are more reliable than manual transmissions. I had to hunt for a manual transmission version of my truck, personal preferance.
Perhaps you and your fellow subjects of the queen (Liz not Elton, George or David) should petition the crown to import a few automatics to pass around at random, similar to your healthcare and unemployment systems?
Is read all the comments first so my head gets filled with a nice preconceived notion of what the article doesn't say, and then read the article with that in mind. It's fun, like reading a raving review of a movie written by a moron, so you'll know all the parts of the movie you won't give a damn about before seeing it. :)
The enemies of Democracy are
Um, but it's an important part of my daily life. It's all a matter of what we see as important and essential to our daily living. To many people, using the computer is no less important than brushing their teeth. I think sometime in the near future, we may see computer use start to be considered "an important part of most people's daily lives."
Why don't you try using a chair?
neat, another thing us geeks can't count on. disability benefits from CTS.
I won't try to describe them since I'm not sure I could do a very good job without having some pictures. Any martial art that uses joint lock tchniques should also teach stretching and strengthening exercises for those joints. If you have problems such as carpal tunnel I recomend looking into it.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I worked on Large scale ops center when the ADA was passed. People came thru to determine who could and would be able to perform the job, and our company was forced to get voice recog software because a blind person applied for the job. Beside the fact the person was a total moron, we spent several hundred thousand $'s equiping things for this ONE PERSON who stopped showing up for work and later tried to go out on disablilty. I was a witness at a hearing in which I stated, I do not beleive the person was capable of performing the job even if they were sighted. Sounds mean but I am convined the whole job application was an attempt to get $ from us. In the end he was told to take a long walk, and we offered to hold his hand even, but he got NOTHING from us...
This isn't the first ruling of this nature. In
essense, the whole ADA is being pretty much
gutted by a catch 22.
If your disability is such that you are not
capable of doing the job, then you have no
case under ADA. Reasoanbly enough, the ADA
doesn't demand miracles - the employer only
has to make "reasonable accomodation". If
"reasonable accomodation" won't allow you to
do the job, then you have no case.
If your disability is such that you might be
able to do the job with reasonable accomodation,
then you don't have a disability recognized by
the ADA.
What's a normal life?
I assume the author intended this to be humorous, and to fish out lots of eager moderators who've clearly never trained aikido...
It's true that with good training, aikido (and other martial arts that involve wristlocks) will increase your wrist flexibility and strength. I've been training these things for years, and also play the piano as well as typing lots, and I've never encountered serious wrist problems. After a while, I even developed a reputation for having exceptionally bendy wrists amongst my peers, so I got to be the first guy anyone new tried them on -- if they worked on me, they worked on everyone.
Everything was great, until one day an overenthusiastic training partner slammed a wristlock on a bit too hard. My wrist still worked afterwards, but was obviously badly weakened, probably due to a connective tissue injury. I've been forced to give up training stuff I love for well over a year, while I let the wrist recover. After all, if it goes, I can't drive to work or type when I get there, and that's not a risk I'm prepared to take.
Sorry to go all serious, but while the parent post was amusing, I think it's important to avoid misleading people, just in case anyone goes out and starts doing this stuff after reading it.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
In the words of John Dean, former Nixon White House counsel: "A strict constructionist is one who favors the prosecution in criminal cases and the defendant in civil cases"
The system has failed you, don't fail yourself. --Billy Bragg
Yeah, you're a troll. Now that Slashdot has given users in good standing an automatic bonus point for their posts, it's easy to see who the trolls are.
However, I have to bite here.
From 1991 to 1995 I had Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome. It was a mild case by comparison to those who are bedridden by it, but it was nonetheless pretty debilitating.
Imagine you have the worst fsckn flu you've ever had. No energy, aches, pains, chills, hot spells, and worst of all, a fog descends on your brain that makes it impossible to think clearly.
Now imagine that this flu doesn't go away.
That's CFIDS.
The first CFIDS episode lasted several months, and left lots of puzzled doctors in its wake. Basically I was diagnosed with CFIDS because all the known causes for symptoms like mine were ruled out. I had a few more active episodes before my last one which was in late 1994.
There are deficits left over from the CFIDS. I don't drive (not good in LA) because I sometimes have lapses of consciousness. They are brief, less than a few seconds in duration, but enough to mean I could be dangerous on the road. I find I have a harder time moving information from short-term memory to long-term memory than I did before my CFIDS. My stamina is certainly not what it was pre-CFIDS.
However, I did manage to lift myself up through my own effort. I learned HTML and for about 5 years worked out of my home building websites for people. I have even had contract positions where I worked on-site. The Internet industry went into the crapper but I spent a year retraining and now I'm hitting the bricks again looking for a desktop support/hardware support/junior Windows sysadmin position.
Lucky for me I had the support of good friends, family, and most importantly my spouse. If it weren't for them I probably would have starved during that period. And I will have you know that in that entire period, I never ONCE was on SSI or Disability.
I hope one day you have to deal with a chronic disease. I hope it's nice and painful and lays you out to where you can't fend for yourself. Then I hope someone takes the same attitude you have. "Here's that kick up the arse, mate! Get with it!"
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Lesson on the power of the president.
1. The president does NOT appoint anyone to the supreme court. That is the job of the senate and more so the senate judicary committe. The president selects possible canidates and hands them over to the senate to decide if they are qualified. Checks and balances are the way of the land.
The site www.talibanonline.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000.
Just a quick parallel for those interested. OSHA's new Ergonomic Standard is set to go into effect on January 16, 2002. You can read the final standard yourself, be patient though, it's a large page.
God Moving Over the Face of Waters
So, can anyone translate that to English, please?
Is it just me, or does it strike anyone as a bit fascist (not to mention unconstitutional) that one can win a case without trial.
7th Amendment:
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
this has nothing to do with legislation but is serious. I hate to make this recommendation because it involves microsoft, but get a microsoft natural keyboard (before the elite series so you have standard size keys). I developed carpal tunnel in '96, doc said to wear a wrist brace which helped, but only succeeded at keeping my wrist perfectly straight, which was a pain on a regular keyboard. I found the ms keyboard about that time, have never had carpal come back on me. I put one everywhere I use a computer (bad bad bad microsoft everywhere I go). Anyway, it's understandable that die-hard anti-MSers will never buy this keyboard, but it really does help. there are off brands, etc, but MS is the only one that has the perfect wrist-to-arm angle. don't ask me why. just a suggestion if you haven't figured it out already.
I keep waiting for the inevitable post from that www.sorehands.com guy who's always battling with Mattel. I hear that he types with his nose now, so it might be a couple more hours before his post is finished...
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Th hl t snt.
Isn't that were you get stuck in traffic during rush hour due to people slowing down going through tunels?
Yes it is.
I can only guess what your message means, but it looks to me like the whole thing pisses you off so bad that you actually stuttered while typing.
;+)
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
As soon as I started weight training, it all evaporated. I make sure to do some stretching (it's become something I just kinda do while I'm thinking), and I get out to the gym three nights a week. (Soon to be joined by weekly hocky games.)
There are a bunch of us here at work that type for a living. I've noticed that the guys who are in good shape (we've got a few ex-motocross riders) don't suffer from RSI. I have a friend who's a physical trainer, and she's helped a lot of people with wrist/CT problems just by getting them to do a little strength training on their wrists. My pet theory: RSI & CT seem to be caused by overuse of underpowered muscles. Typing isn't stressful enough to make your arms stronger, but it is stressful enough to cause strain and eventual damage to over-worked muscles. Beef up, and you might avoid the problem.
There are several excercises that you can do to strengthen your wrists. My favorite is:
- Tie a weight (5 lbs or so) to the end of a string, and tie the string to the middle of a 2-foot pole. (I use a cut-off hockey stick, and a small milk jug for the weight.)
- Hold the pole in front of you with both hands, palms down, with the string hanging between them.
- Now, reel in the weight. Turn the pole away from you until the weight comes all the way up. Then turn the pole toward you untill the weight goes all the way down and back again. Repeat.
You can do this with your arms resting on your knees, or train your shoulders and posture by doing it standing.I'm fully aware that strength isn't the only factor in RSI and CT. But anything that trains strength and flexibility seems to help. Good luck, all!
Since now I can't claim carpal tunnel, i will go back to the old fashioned ADD. They won't take that from me. And yesss, all the spee^H^H^H^H ritalin i will ever need.
badness 10000
(Yes, there's an intentional typo in the name.)
The xwrits tool occasionally pops up reminders to stop typing and do your writs exercises. And if you ignore it, it makes rude gestures at you. Debian users can just apt-get the xwrits package, and there's source and RPMs and stuff on the project page.
It definitely helped me. My wrists rarely hurt anymore (but I should keep doing the exercises anyway).
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
So basically, the court is saying that Williams CTS was not sufficiently sever to sue under the ADA. If her CTS had prevented her from carrying out ordinary tasks, then the ADA would apply.
...and we'll see how you feel when you get to that point. You gonna give up the profession you love just so your company can get off cheap?
:)
Why *shouldn't* a company spend money to make machines work in a way that does not hurt? Why *should* it be painful? I agree that there is a limit, but companies can spend very reasonable amounts of money to help people out. Sound like she got grabby, but it isn't reasonable IMHO to think that companies shouldn't try to help out all the same.
What's pathetic is not thinking about your answer before hitting submit.
And BTW - Metallica's Black Album rocks.. so there!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
like Linux. mice are for wimps.
stand and count as an ADA case. after all, it effects your everyday life. I hate when the government trys to do good deeds.
Repetitive stress injuries can be cured or prevented by stretching. I've had problems with these in the past, with the tingling wrists and the numb palms and sometimes actual pain, and that goes away easily.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, on the other hand, can't. Some people get it and some people don't. I haven't ever heard of a study that shows that repetitive stress injuries lead to CTS, and I've seen at least one (don't have a ref) that doesn't show any significant correlation of CTS between occupations you'd expect and occupations you wouldn't. Although stress can make CTS hurt more, it doesn't seem to make it be there. This is true of a lot of diseases. Hot peppers don't cause ulcers; in fact, they might help ulcers by promoting mucus production. However, they make stuff hurt more, including ulcers, and might make people think they have ulcers when they really don't.
The trouble is that people confuse CTS and repetitive stress injuries. I assume that this woman has real, diagnosed CTS. In that case, it's just a condition, which responds well to surgery but not much else, and it was probably not caused by her job, but may have been made to hurt more.
In any event, it sounds as if Toyota made reasonable accommodation by switching her to another job. I also don't think it was heartless to put her back; if it really did get better, then it was a repetitive stress injury and not CTS, and that's perfectly appropriate, just like putting someone back on the basketball team after their knee heals. If, on the other hand, she had a diagnosis for CTS at the time, then it may have been heartless or may have been ignorant. However the fact that it took a while for the symptoms to come back is suspicious. With real CTS the pain would start right away, bang! unless there was some other inflammation in the same place that just added to the pain. In any event, the fact that whatever did get better seems to be pretty good evidence that it isn't permanent or long-term and so would not constitute grounds for a lawsuit under the ADA.
Summary judgment can happen when both sides agree to the facts of the case, and so the court only has to decide the suit as a matter of law applied to the facts.
This is certainly not unconstitutional. Juries are triers of facts, not the law. Obviously, then, if there's no dispute as to the facts, there's no need for a jury. Also, remember that a motion for summary judgment won't be granted if the other side (or the judge) believes that there is a dispute as to the facts, or that there's a reasonable chance that the facts will be in dispute.
BTW, remanding is not that big of a deal. The court below is constrained to decide "consistent with" the SCOTUS's opinion. Not much wiggle room, there.
For example: I know a woman who is an IT project manager who has a medical condition that limits her walking. She can walk, but it is very painful for her. Recently her company decided to move to
new quarters. Everyone knows she has a handicapped parking placard -- surprise! The new office space is up two flights of stairs, quite (illegally) inaccessible. When she asked for a reasonable accommodation, the snide remarks and gossip came quickly. "You don't look so disabled." "It's only two flights of stairs." "Why didn't you tell anybody you were handicapped?" She has now been assigned to a differerent, accessible building but there are no other employees assigned to this building, it is empty office space, she has no PC! Not even a -chair-. They didn't fire her, yet, but she gets to do -nothing-. Yeah, she gets paid, but don't try and tell me you wouldn't go bugfuck stir crazy.
Today's Supreme Court ruling is yet another victory for the strong who would oppress the weak. It will embolden employers to play bullshit games like this with human beings and their livelihoods and families. Disabled people will be made to produce reams of privacy-invading medical reports to justify their claims for reasonable accommodation, which will be denied. And if you are one of those cruel people who would mock and ridicule the disabled among us, might I remind you that there but for the grace of God go you. It only takes one bodysurfing or rock-climbing or bike accident. IAAL.
As a certified Iyengar yoga teacher I can recommend Iyengar Yoga.
In special medical classes you learn poses that heal/prevent CTS.
See this article by a computer programmer and this article by a teacher.
This doesn't mean that carpel tunnel isn't a disablity you dolts, it's a very serious problem. This woman's case simply didn't prove that her affliction was serious enough for her to be considered under the ADA.
That's not rule by law. That's rule by lawyers -- which is very lame.
Software Wars
So freaking hilarious!! Simplicity at it's best.
Nothing like an unlikely funny to make me spit out some Coca-Cola®.
The first empty hand form in Wing Chun, the Sil Lim Tao, works for me. It is stationary, only working the upper body, and builds strength and flexability in your wrists and forearms without risking your joints like Aikido. I just stand up at my desk and do it every few hours. It can be learned from the William Cheung book in a few days.
> A little pain in your wrist that prevents you from typing is a
> sad excuse for not getting another kind of job.
Um, according to the facts of the case, she has a job in an assembly plant that requires her to use her hands above shoulder level for extended periods of time. There's no mention of typing, and there are currently no ergonomic standards for preventing Carpal Tunnel Syndrome due to this sort of work.
> You're only disabled if you insist that the only work you can carry
> out is done with a keyboard! Get another job and stop being a slacker.
Get some reading comprehension lessons and stop being a dope. There was no mention of keyboarding.
> Besides, the carpal tunnel syndrome is self-inflicted just
> like alcoholism and drug use. You should have thought about ergonomics
> and periodic rest before ruining your physique with the unnatural
> typing posture.
Again with the typing! I won't even comment on that. I will, however, comment on the situation in this case. To say that this woman's CTS is self inflicted is on some level true, but the same could be said of anyone working any job, and would remove any responsibility for any employer to safeguard its employees by blaming the employees for taking dangerous jobs in the first place. That's just plain silly. Just so you know, a large number of repetitive motion injuries are not typing injuries. Many are industrial in nature, stemming from factory floor work, vibration or poorly designed work areas. None of these things are (usually) within the worker's ability to change, it becomes difficult to blame the worker for simple laziness or bad planning.
Virg
It's a small web afterall ...
That's Mr. Eradicator to you.
trance-port
> Maybe you should have made contingency plans for the possibility that you might lose your fingers or vision in the future.
Most people have such a contingency, at least in corporate America. It's called disability insurance. That's not what this case is about. The person in question doesn't want to collect disability payments, she wants to use the Americans with Disabilities Act to get her employer to add accessibility modifications so she can do her job. It would be the same (in her eyes, but not in the eyes of the Supreme Court) as demanding wheelchair access to her workplace if she couldn't walk.
Virg
I know, you probably don't want to hear a personal story related to this subject, but...
My brother in-law had surgery on both of his arms a few years ago because of carpel tunnel syndrome. He's been a carpenter since his teens (he's near 40 now). Insurance paid for the surgery, as it should, but I'm not sure if he should be collecting disability from the government. His hands are fine now that he's had the surgery.
I think the real matter of concern is that HMOs can basically decide not to pay for this kind of surgery and normal people would be able to do nothing about it.
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
First not everyone that gets CTS is a computer user. It usually strikes factory line workers. My father works in a printer/binder shop [printing those IDG books is a million $ acct] on the line.
The older women who work there doing routine things often talked about 'early retirement'. This was getting CTS and going on SSDI. But years ago they stopped giving out SSDI for CTS because it can be fixed with simple surgury.
Sorry kids, it's only a temporary problem.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Finally, its about time some sense comes to the supreme court. almost all people who work out regularly NEVER get CTS, and what is the main cause of CTS? Obesity, I am done paying for fat lazy people.
Just look at the pictures. ;)
I suppose that, ultimately, it burns down as something that psychosomatically induced????
a) The Court's consideration of what an individual must prove to demonstrate a substantial limitation in the major life activity of performing manual tasks is guided by the ADA's disability definition. "Substantially" in the phrase "substantially limits" suggests "considerable" or "to a large degree," and thus clearly precludes impairments that interfere in only a minor way with performing manual tasks.
Most people spend 9+ hours at work. That makes it a very substantial part of a persons life.
Just cause she can brush her teeth they voted against her. Again, its a slap in the face by Judges who are appointed for life.
One interesting thing to note is that if you take all people with work-related injuries and divide them into two groups, those with lawsuits and those without lawsuits, the people who didn't seek legal action had a recovery rate of around 50-60%. If any sort of legal action was involved, the recovery rate dropped to 0%. NONE of those people ever returned to work. I admit that there is a certain percentage of those people do have justifiable disability, but there's also another group trying to abuse the system in order to obtain disability status.
This is the same damn law that airlines got sued under for not hiring all-but-blind pilots.
WAAAAH! FUCKING WAAAAAH! MY PUSSY HURTS!
1. Can the patient feed herself? If she can, she doesn't qualify.
2. Does she have family members who can feed her? If so, she doesn't qualify.
3. Can she afford to pay someone to feed her? If so, she doesn't qualify.
4. Can she sign the neccesary paperwork? If she can, she's not disabled enough. If she can't, then we're ready to pay - as soon as we have her signature.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Speech recognition for hacking Perl, anyone?
Better that than using it for APL I suppose. But I think what you really need for hands-free Perl is a personal (i.e. trainable) facial expression encoding system.
-- MarkusQ
What I mean in my subject of "It's not CTS" is that her symptoms do not sound like the result of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. CTS is overused and misused as a diagnosis of RSI - repetitive stress injury. CTS is when the passage way letting the nerve through the wrist is too tight. Usually, a bone in the rist that has a spur on it that holds the nerve in place impinges on the nerve in certain sections of a range of motions.
Most people experience wrist pain as a result of RSI injuries. It's mistaken as CTS often because 'That's where it hurts.' Often RSI sufferrers are hard working people who turn to help only when they can push on. And when they do turn to help they are often met with a hostile reaction, accusations of being lazy, and a lack of understanding about what the hell is going on with them. Many RSI victims have fluid buildup in the wrist as part of muscle inflammation, and THAT is what causes their CTS-like symptoms. CTS surgery for these people usualy results in a relief of symptoms for a short period of time, and then fluid build up, nerve aggravation, and muscle injuries catch up again and the symptoms recurr.
RSI victims complaining about pain in a certain area are often unknowingly complaining about the area that hurts most, and at the moment. The area of intense pain often moves around because most people compensate for the pain and muscle fatigue, thus overstressing a new area and causing a new injury.
RSI injury is not a "Oops I pushed it today" injury. It's a "Oops, I pushed it too hard for many years" type injury. Variables unique to an individual, and unique to the job at hand all make the impacts of certain activities different for everyone. But, there are some constants. Holding your arms out in front of you for years will fatigue your back and upper extremities. It can take years before your muscles reach such a point of fatigue and spasm, and your nervers suffer a certain threshhold of damage.
Without a doubt, the workplace is the most dangerous place for these activities. Be it typing, or working on an assembly line, when you put your body through millions of repetions, and it involves using your arms, you are in danger.
From the comments I read on this article, most slashdot readers would do well to read "It's not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: RSI Theory and Therapy for Computing Professionals." -- Suparna Damany, et al; Paperback
I think the person in this case is not just a CTS sufferrer. Rather, she is more likely an RSI victim.
For those of you who sneer at the woman in this case, and pompously preach about preventative measures, my response to you is "You're right. At the same time, I hope you never suffer the way she seems to have."
First off this looks like a simple, Employee gets fired, finds some lawyer advertising on the back of the phonebook, tries to live out the american dream and get rich quick. Also, it seems that anyone who types for a living should understand that continuous repetitive use of the wrist will lead to pain. Just like anyone who shovels dirt for a living understands that it's going to give them back pain. I do think that there should be research into what exactly causes carpal tunnel, and that every effort be made to fix it, but until then, if you type for your job, then be prepared for it. The ADA was designed to give people in wheelchairs and such access to the same things that the rest of us have. And if these people without legs had lost them at their last job in the production dept. of legs R us, then no, I wouldn't want them to have better parking spaces or those nifty lifts on the bus. I know it's a lot to expect the American people to think about the consequences of their actions, but I can dream can't I?
Shift happens. Fire it up.
We spend years in court making decisions when all we could have done was redesign the keyboard to eliminate this. Its not that hard, and we are bound to make typing faster now that typewriter limits aren't in effect.
Because everyones unwilling to change, thousands will suffer wrist pains for years and years. The solutions that are being used to reduce it, aren't good enough, a patch is never as good as something done right in the first place.
For those of you who have carpal tunnel you might want to look into deep tissue massage therapy.
Basically I had carpal tunnel to the point that I could not bend my wrist back more than 40 degree angle. I feared the worst and was about to go to the doctor when my friend (who does deep tissue for a sports/medicine place) said give me 2 1/2 sessions with you.
To make a long story short. It hurt so bad I cried but it cured me. I also started using an ergonomic keyboard (which was hard at first) but now I don't get near as sore. Anytime it gets bad I have him work on me and he fixes it. Also he has me fill on kitchen sink with hot water (as hot as you can stand) and the other with cold (as cold as you can stand) and alternate dunking your arms in it past the elbow. Do that 10 times and then stretch your arms/wrists really good. It does wonders.
Also, since I have taken up weightlifting again it has not been nearly as bad. (Again the stretching)
This may not work for everyone but SERIOUSLY it has helped me.
I hope it helps you.
it's nice to see the original posted story be corrected as to the spelling of Carpal instead of Carpel. I 'd have posted this sooner but have had to hit backspace so often because of this pain in my wrists....
db
Cig:
ôô
Carpal Tunnel is preventable to a great extent, and usually can be caught before it gets to a point of nagging pain, being both a musician and a computer professional (and student), I'm in a high risk group for Carpal Tunnel, so I take steps necesary to try and prevent it. Sorry lady, if your wrists were sore from typing, you should have taken a couple sick days or just not typed for a couple days. Also...one word: ergonomic. Why should my tax dollars go to pay for someone else's problem, particularly one that they might (you can't always) have been able to prevent? That's why you buy disability insurance!
Derek Greene
Wouldn't it be great if the WC3 set a standard for the <RANT> tag? I'm talking an annoying font like Comic Sans, bright red letters, and at LEAST 30 points high. Yeah, that would be sooo cool.
Ooh..even perhaps bring back the blink!
When I'm in charge, things are gonna be DIFFERENT!
That? That was a pigeon.
They say it does not prevent a neccessary task.
Well supporting yourself financially is a neccessary task. How do you brush your teeth if you cant afford a toothbrush!
Finincial disablity is just as severe as a physical disability.