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KDE 3.0RC3: Prepare to Fall in Love
Dre writes "As announced on dotsy, the first day of the Season of Love (for us Northerners, anyway) brings us the KDE 3.0 final release candidate, KDE 3.0RC3. Besides fixes for any remaining crashes and grave bugs, this release will become KDE 3.0, scheduled to free the world in early April. Having benefitted from a week-long hacking session early this month, I can report that this release is very solid and, best of all, much snappier than prior releases, particularly Konqueror. Downloads are available through KDE's load-balancing mirror system. Since this is principally a show-stopper release, things are on an expedited schedule; more binary packages will appear in the next few days, and shortly thereafter KDE 3.0 will be tagged."
KDE makes a great piece of eye candy for people when your trying to convert them Linux from a windows operating system. I'm glad that this and gnome continue to improve it only makes it easy to convince people to try something other then Win32.
I think it's important that this have support for compilation with the GCC 3.0 series. Otherwise it's not freeing my world from the iron grip of Enlightenment (haha!)
Seriously, though, what work is being done on this?
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
It is comparitively more responsive than 2.2.2?
anyone have mirrored the latest screen shots and wants to karma whore?
I wonder if mandrake will change there april distro to reflect this.
Save me some download time at any rate.
..which just shows that the human brain is ill-adapted for thinking and was probably designed for cooling the blood-T P
...Mandrake had waited a few weeks and included KDE3.
-Sam
It's their new load balancing system. Everyone who needs access still has it.
You should really, really try it if you haven't. The speed is much greater and the overall stability is very solid!
It seems to handle the load pretty well, i mean, load balancing all those 404 errors
You just have to look at the Keramik theme and the Conectiva Crystal icon theme. It is going to be a bright, bright future.
My desktop icons always get messed up on startup. However, that seems to be the only real bug in can find.
It simply rocks.
This is your sig. There are thousands more, but this one is yours.
They didn't plan on adding any new features, just to convert kde to qt3 and make sure it's compatible with gcc 3.x while still getting it out on time. In the end they not only accomplished this, it seems like there are new packages and many many new features in existing packages which crept in... and now we're hearing it's stable too? geez.
Liberty.
Give latest 2.4 kernel with preempt a try :)
and KDE3.0 with all the optimisations on
and it really does give XP a run for its
money!
Alex
p.s: why is this -1? Its far from a troll!
Can we have some screenshots? Every version of KDE i've ever seen has been, well, sort of inherently ugly-- the worst abuses of the motif, windows, and aqua mindsets combined. You can skin over the windows-ness, of course, and skin the puke-grey color scheme out of the icons, but that doesn't change that there seemed to just be very little engineering of details in KDE, and little things-- the relative placement of buttons, layout, fitt's law considerations, stuff you can't skin over-- seemed to be more or less unimportant to them. And when you're designing a gui, almost all of what makes the difference between being pleasant to use and feeling like you're fighting with the computer to get anything done comes in tiny, tiny details..
I mean, well, ok-- that's a decent bit unecessarily harsh. They did a wholly acceptable job, a better job than i could have done, and the thing was refreshingly usable. I didn't want to use it, though, and i didn't. It just for one reason or another felt more natural and nimble to use bash than kde-- which is saying a LOT, since i am a native mac user and one of the more rabid proponents of the spacial file manangement metaphor you're going to find. But kde just felt so *clumsy*...
Then again, i haven't seriously used KDE since 1, though my brief experience with KDE2 failed to impress me. So, have things gotten better? Can anyone convince me that KDE has learned from mistakes and improved seriously?
Can i have some screenshots? I couldn't find any of version 3 on kde.org.
--super ugly ultraman
http://www.cowboyneal.org/
too shay, as they say in germany or wherever
The jump from KDE 1.0 to 2.0 was a fairly major one. This release feels like it should maybe be KDE 2.5 or something- I don't see much in the way of fundamental architecture changes or major enhancements. This is not to slight the work of the KDE team in any way, I am a huge fan and current user of KDE. I just don't understand why this is a point release.
slashdot!=valid HTML
I could not find a chanlog/news anywhere
Congratulations to the KDE-team!
I have sometimes installed a computer for not so computer literate people, (my wife, my then 4-year-old daughter, several elderly people), and sometimes, if they explicitly wished so, they had to pay for a windows license, more often they got KDE and StarOffice 5.2.
The KDE users learned at least as much as fast, so much for the desktop-readyness of linux.
(What I have seen from Gnome is certainly not worse in UI, so please use another post as a starter for the obligatory flame war:))
What I like to install if the user's machine has less horsepower, is xfce and lyx - also a fine combination with a useful interpretation of the desktop-metaphor in the wm, and imho easier to adapt to for users with a little ms-windows-background than the more nextish wms like blackbox etc.
To give you an idea, I like using the blueheart enlightenment theme. Imagine that screen shot with a dark tiled background (blech, not WHITE!) and you'll be in business.
I found it funny that you can watch the mirrors work. I found an directory (http://download.uk.kde.org/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3 .0rc3/SuSE/7.1-i386+kde/) that was half-full (4 packages), which I found somewhat interesting. I reloaded and it had 5 packages. You could just watch the packages grow ... (and not slow as well, it seems the mirrors have some massive bandwidth to the central site).
Actually, Kfm had integrated webbrowsing and file management long before IE did.
So it's IE ripping of KDE, if anything.
If I had a dollar for everytime that I heard konqueror was more stable and snappier then I would be rich. I don't use the thing so I don't know but I would expect the thing to do all my filemanagement and web browsing for me after all always hearing about improvement.
Screenshots are available for KDE 3.0 here.
These shots go to show that Unix and Linux systems are more than capable of competing with the eye candy UIs of Windows XP and MacOS X.
How about a load-balancing dot.kde.org mirror system? ;)
Hmmm...I think your suggestion to use IceWM makes the best point of all; pick the window manager of choice, or avoid the GUI completely.
Despite KDE's looks, Linux users still can choose to use something else. I cannot think of a bigger difference.
And I found this directory:
<http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3. 0rc3/RedHat/i386/>
And it's full of files dated today and yesterday.
But according to the release notes the new stuff should be in "/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3.0-beta2/".
Now, is "3.0.rc3" ("release candidate 3) older or newer than "3.0.beta2"?
There isn't supposed to be any RedHat RPMs for tthis new stuff, so these RedHat RPMs I found must be something older. But they were created today?
???
How does one do that? Stop off at 7-11 after work for a box of Trojans and some Astroglide before visiting kde.org?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I have RedHat 7.2 w/GNOME on my laptop and Mandrake 8.2 w/KDE on my desktop. Weird enough, a few days ago my GNOME desktop freezes and I couldn't do the CTRL-ALT-BCKSPACE , nothing worked. Then yesterday, my KDE freezes and I couldn't do anything either. I had to reboot.
I remember the days when they weren't so damn bloated and when Linux meant "fast/light/stable". Nowadays with recent distros, it takes over 40 seconds to boot into Linux. Linux is becoming more and more like Windows.
'scheduled to free the world in early April.'
Hor*cough*it.
Not but that KDE is quality software.. But a simple clone of Microsoft's desktop isn't going to be freeing me anytime soon.
It's more like indentured service. It's not quite slavery, but it sure as hell isn't freedom.
Hahah.. Icewm? Why out of all the window managers would you pick that one? It looks _exactly like_ windows! Hmm.. buttons on right, icon on left, start menu ?? Not that I love KDE or Gnome environments but you surely could have picked a better windowmanager .. maybe Sawfish or Enlightenment at least. Now those you can be original with since they're 100% customizable.
From my experience the best way to convert a windows user is to provide them with something they are comfortable with. Not a totally new system to learn.
Convert them with a look-a-like. They will eventually realize the true power of the Linux desktop!
In a CVS entry, they tagged it with "gcc3 compat fixes", followed by a mailing list posting discussing that it was now gcc3 compat.
I dont know whether rc3 has that cvs patch in, but I would definitely assume so.
GPL'd web-based tradewars themed space game
IMO the need to get some really nutty types
to go back and start writing the code in
assembly........
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
two qusetions...
1. Does anyone know about themes that make KDE and GTK (GNOME) look exactly like each other?
2. Will brahms (a OSS Cubase clone) be in KDE3?
thanks,
Cies.
From the jargon definition of troll:
"The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it."
Of course he used IceWM as an example of non-Windows like design! I looks exactly like Windows 95!
Using your same logic, then only 1 brand of car should have 4 wheels. The rest need to be innovating right? Please give me a break.
You know, I thought exactly the opposite thing when I installed WinXP. I thought its default look/feel/whatever was extremely reminiscent of a certain few Linux (and other UNIX bretheren) Desktop Environments.
Now, regardless of who copied who, what difference does it make anyway? I _like_ the way KDE 2.2.2 looks and feels. Similarly, I like WinXP way more than its predecessors, much for the same reason. Well, that and XP doesn't crash quite so much.
As for IceWM, I've never much cared for it.
Lets not forget how many times MS has been caught ripping off other folks' ideas. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. If someone did come up with a totally different GUI style, the likelihood that its going to be accepted and used by everyone is pretty small. People don't like fooling around with stuff they are unfamiliar with when they are trying to get stuff done. Thats why I use WinXP and KDE 2.2.2. I am comfortable with the UI, and I can focus on getting things done, instead of fucking around for hours on end trying to figure out how to do x. Its for that reason that I've never really cared for Enlightenment, IceWM, or Gnome. (I only include Gnome here because its had a nasty history of throwing SegFaults for no apparent reason).
Back for a moment to how KDE3 seems such a blatant ripoff of 'Doze. Have you installed KDE3 and played around with it? Neither have I. It would make sense that KDE would most resemble Windows simply because it uses QT, which is also compatible with windows. Furthermore, if it is the aim for Linux to provide viable competition in the Desktop market, there needs to be a desktop environment that is just as pretty as windows, but is more stable. Damn, isn't that what KDE is? I would think that all Linux fans would appreciate something that contributes to the cause (dominance of Open Source/Free Software/etc), even if is not exactly their cup of tea.
What exactly is a legitimate Linux user, pray tell?
If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.
What could possibly hurt the security of the American people more than giving our own government the ability to hide its
Are you new to Linux?
AFAIK in KDE 2.2 you cannot simply drag and drop to the "floppy device" icon in the desktop. Also, a little icon on the side-bar in Konqueror for each removable device would help. A non-geek user should see this little floppy in conqueror and drag a file from the fs to the little floppy and get the job done.
This is one of the little things where M$ is still easier to use. You want to copy a file to a floppy, you insert the stupid floppy and drag and drop. I know you can set up autofs and all, but this would be one of the basic things a desktop should handle seamlessly.
Does anyone know if these things are improved in KDE 3 ?
Thanks so much to the KDE team for all their work. Cheers !
-- Don Inodoro
Mirror of the dot.kde.org page
bb orders unmod linux ungoodthink speedwise.
I've been running CVS for about 4 weeks, and it's gone from "barely able to compile", to "required hacking", to "kcrash" appearing every few minutes, to stuff (artsd) being moved out of kdebase, to.. well.. maybe I'm doing something wrong, because all the CVS I've been using is FAR from stable.. :-)
Is it just me, or is all the kdenetwork stuff missing from the distribution builds? The RedHat RPMs directory doesn't seem to include KMail.
that breaks the camels back for me. Though I am a devoted GNOME user, I use a P2 with 64 MB of ram, and you can imagine the sloth of Nautilus on that kind of machine. I LOVE Konquerer though, and have been looking for a good opportunity to switch to KDE. Pending on finding out more about 3.0's performance on lower end machines, I think I may convert.
P.S. Has anyone tried KDE 3 on a PC thats ~350 MHz?
The ability to monopolize an industry is insignificant, next to the power of the source.
has anybody got debian packages of this release? i never saw any debs flying around ("yeah, of course there will be some - later"), so if anybody knows of some unofficial apt sources, please tell me :)
Look at this screenshot.
The print dialog is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.
The taskbar system is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.
Even the HELP SYSTEM is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.
The background *is* the default Mac OS X background.
You're going to tell me that the round, bubbly blue title bars (whose construction are directly lifted from Windows'), were not directly inspired by the latest OS's from Apple and Microsoft?
When is Linux going to stop aiming to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS! and do something "innovative" in the GUI area?
Oh, that's right. THEY WON'T, simply because all those open source programmers are PROGRAMMERS and know nothing about UI design!
There's a REASON you won't find any UI features in KDE that haven't already appeared in Windows or Mac OS. Microsoft and Apple pay people who deserve the money BIG BUCKS to design UI's and perform focus groups and make *advances* in the UI department.
If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.
No, the JesusWindows is bad enough, we don't want a JesusKDE. (You know, XP...XPISTOS...Greek, XP is a very much used symbol in such iconography.)
And, will it have the fixed linker? That would give KDE's performance a nice boost
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
View data. I'm a sysadmin and programmer. Problems become easier to solve when I can get more data in front of my face. The text doesn't seem small. Its just like reading a book or newspaper.
If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.
As KDE developer I can promise you there will be a 3.0.1 bugfix release first, then a 3.1 with new features, etcetera. Just because we do indeed implement good stuff as seen in other OSes (yes, including but definitely not limited to Windows) doesn't mean KDE is just a copycat.
Magnetic window borders, old classics such as virtual desktops and focus follows mouse.. KDE has it all. Configure it for ten minutes and you've got the exact Windows clone. Or, you've got something completely different. Umpteen window decorations, style, icon themes, colour schemes and a powerful control center give you choice in the look and feel of KDE. So make it look like whatever you want, there is not just one look and feel.
Really, it is? I've looked all over my wife's XP machine, and I can't find sources to anything...
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Tell you what, Jonnythan, if *you* think you can put together a better UI, then get off your ass and do it, instead of bitching about the resemblance between KDE and Windows/MacOS. While you're at it, try implementing those ring menus from Secret of Mana; those were fuckin' cool.
Does anybody remember how long it normally takes for the official debs to be released? I mean, after the official release. :)
[insert random fortune here]
Hahah.. Icewm? Why out of all the window managers would you pick that one? It looks _exactly like_ windows! Hmm.. buttons on right, icon on left, start menu ?? Not that I love KDE or Gnome environments but you surely could have picked a better windowmanager .. maybe Sawfish or Enlightenment at least. Now those you can be original with since they're 100% customizable.
What if he trolled you?
Actually, if you look at the mailing lists - you'll find people from IBM (who compile KDE on AIX), SGI (Irix), FreeBSD, HP-UX, Sun (Solaris), and even Mac OS X!
The KDE Development team doesn't have the machines to try the code on other things then Linux, but non-the-less - most of the time people manage to compile KDE from sources with 90% of success with few small problems that are being discussed and fixed within short time.
Hetz (Heunique)
- Windows needed a long time to offer a measly 4 desktops (compared to up to 16 in KDE)
- Unix-style cut&paste is much more efficient and unmatched by Apple-style cut&paste used in Windows
- Konqueror windows reappear after logging out and in again. Of course on the right desktop and with the right widow-geometry. No more temporary bookmarks!
- Konqueror has much better bookmark-handling than any other browser
There is more innovation and new ideas in one year of KDE-development than in the whole Windows-series.
For those of you already running Conectiva Linux, it is aptgetable already.
/etc/apt/sources.list file:
If you run the CL snapshot version just:
# apt-get update
# apt-get dist-upgrade
If you just want to get the kde stuff:
Add this to your
rpm ftp://ftp.nl.linux.org/pub conectiva/snapshot/conectiva main kde
and then run:
# apt-get update
# apt-get install task-kde
If you want to fully upgrade to the snapshot version:
add this line instead:
rpm ftp://ftp.nl.linux.org/pub conectiva/snapshot/conectiva main extra orphan gnome experimental games kde
and then:
# apt-get update
# apt-get dist-upgrade
Enjoy!
until it's in the released documentation, i'm thinking there _could_ be problems (not there there still might not be after that). i don't think that reading in a cvs entry(s) "gcc3 compat fixes" really says that it's been tested and works with that compiler.
if they say on the mailing list that it's gcc3 compat, why don't the put it in the docs somewhere? as a comparison, some people have gotten the ati radeon 8500 cards to work using the gatos drivers, but... the driver authors aren't labeling it as supported. there's been changes in the code to accomadate the card, but it's not ready for mainstream.
How gay is that?? It's when nerds start talking about "love" with respect to machines that I draw the line. Jesus Christ, Taco, aren't you married? I knew this guy once, he just finished banging his girlfriend and he gets up to play with his computer. What a mental defective!
You *have* tried sloppy focus, right?
Can I jump to a location on a scrollbar with the MMB in any version of Windows or MacOS? No.
You use the left mouse button in windows to navigate to specific areas on the scrollbar.
Can I use up to 16 desktops in any version of Widnows or MacOS (without ugly 3rd party tools)? No.
I personally hate this functionality. It's a waste of system resources. And KDE didn't pioneer this feature either.
Can I create bookmark directories in IE without launching a helper-app? No.
ahem, yes you can. Navigate to the favorites folder and create a new folder.
In contrast to you, I do know both KDE and Windows, and the Windows-GUI is pretty worthless compared to any KDE-version after 2.0
I do too, and KDE(and linux) needs alot of work before it will replace windows on my desktop. Such as the ability to completely modify every aspect of your system without opening a terminal window. Speed Improvements. Increased Stability. (its sad, windows 2000 is MUCH more stable then linux w/ X + KDE has ever been) Better Drag and Drop support. Less bloat (kde still has windows beat here, barely, but the overhead of linux + X + kde is still WAAAY too high for my tastes)
The "focus problem" that I've been whining piteously about for so long has been fixed, so I can now actually post to Slashdot with Konqueror in KDE3...
KDE3 at this point seems to be in really good shape. There are only 1.5 problems left that I can even think of at the moment...(maybe less...)
The ".5" is the clipboard and cutting-and-pasting. Right now, it seems a bit inconsistent in some spots (especially cutting-and-pasting from within kmail [i.e. message source or headers when reporting spam]), which is annoying, but not fatal.
The other problem isn't KDE's fault - I just can't get Quanta to start under KDE3 is all (is Quanta dead? Development on it seems to have sputtered to a stop at the moment [though about once a week CVS shows a change to a configuration file or something of the sort]...)
Otherwise, I consider myself "officially" using KDE3 full-time now. I'm quite pleased with it. Konqueror in particular seems to have gotten significantly better (and I think it was pretty good before) at dealing with the more esoteric web-sites that used to give it problems (javascript/ecmascript support is greatly improved...)
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Spring started on March 20th this year, not today...check that calandar boy :)
Why is it that when Windows XP came out, all we heard from /.ers is: "Ugh, it's so candy-coated I can't stand it."
But when a KDE theme does it 6 months later it's: "Oooh pretty. It is going to be a bright, bright future."
I'm no Microsoft apologist, but come on people, make up your minds.
We just hate Micro$oft, that's all.
They do frequently make some good products (otherwise there would be no argument whatsoever) but we hate them so much (for good reason, mind you - their selfish, monopolistic, deceive everybody, rule-the-world, screw-the-competition, screw-the-customer mentality) that it blinds us to whatever little good that might sometimes come out of Redmond.
* Why do we care so much about themes over everything else?
* How many desktops do you need? Doesn't it get confusing after 4?
* How can Unix-style cut&paste be more efficient when it works so clumsely? I couldn't tell you how to do it by keyboard (consistent across apps), and couldn't find instructions on it either.
* Explorer windows can also reappear after logging out.
* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?
* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.
I've been playing with both. I can certainly say both offer great speedups over their current stable versions. However, I must say that KDE3 feels a lot closer to release quality than Gnome2, even though Gnome2 supposedly has a sooner release date...
Everything in KDE (at lleast as of RC2) seems to work, I haven't seen any crashes. All the utilities and such seem pretty complete.
Gnome2, as of a few days ago, still seemed broken in so many ways. On log out, the panel always segfaulted. The appearance is, well, pretty crappy compared with KDE (one font selector, which doesn't seem to work right). Gdm is completely broken (the daemon continuously restarts, and the configuration tools are broken and won't even start. Sawfish 2 doesn't seem to want to even pull up any configuration applets. Interoperability between Gnome2 and Gnome1 apps seems ok, until gGConf comes into play. If gnome1 installed gconf is running, Gnome2 apps screw up, if gnome2 is running it's gconf, Gnome1 apps that are GConf aware mess up. All this is my own machine, with gnome prefixes differing between 1 and 2, but under the same configuration, KDE is good to go... Maybe at release time, we will see a different story. Both show great promise.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Another 5 years and maybe you can show some screenshots of some real apps? Mail sure, party fliers, sure... (Well maybe, but they'll most likely look like crap because there are no good printer drivers for any of todays HQ printers from HP and Epson) Music? Not even close. Professional imaging? Not even not even close.
But, it's a first step and should be recognised for that ayway.
> If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE
> XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing
> strategy, assuming there are no legality issues
> with using the letters X and P consecutively.
Why not name it KDE Chi Ro?
It abbreviates to KDE XP (with the last two in greek characters) or KDE Cairo (for people who don't know Window's history, Cairo was supposed to be the code name for the ultimate operating system that Microsoft was working towards).
That would *really* PO Microsoft and there isn't a thing they could do about it.;-)
I really don't think that it's KDEs mission to convert every command line lovin' Linux hacker over to a GUI. KDE is oviously trying to appeal to non-Linux users! And as such, is probably VERY widely accepted over some of the more minimalist or non existant window managers out there...
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
How about mirroring on Sourceforge?
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I used kde back in the 0.x and 1.x days.
Then switched to gnome1 just to try it,
and found the pannel MUCH better then kde's.
Got tired of all the bloat and crashes,
and came back to a plain icewm environment.
(99% of the time I'm in rxtv, vi or mozilla,
don't use the file manager, so why eat so
much memory with (almost) useless stuff?)
Think it's time to try a "desktop" again,
more for curiosity than for real need,
but I'll wait for the 3.0.1 version, that is
sure come in a few weeks after 3.0 to fix
some comon sily bugs.
I have no problem posting to /. from the KDE2 version of Konqueror. (Maybe because I use click-focus instead of hover-focus. I have a Windows mindset--sue me.) I rarely do, though, because Konqueror has trouble rendering a lot of /. pages correctly. Rendering issues are the main reason I don't use Konqueror more. If these are addressed in KDE3, Konqueror is ready to kick some serious butt.
The "focus problem" that I've been whining piteously about for so long has been fixed, so I can now actually post to Slashdot with Konqueror in KDE3...
What was that problem?
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
Tabbed browsing is coming in 3.1.
Listen KDE and GNOME by default have configurations that are similiar to Windoze.
:->
_ __
It does NOT mean that you have to live with your desktop set this way. The control center for GNOME is confusing in its placement but KDE is logically laid out (the only bad part is that with KDE you get an insane amount of dizzying options to choose from).
I live with GNOME because I use primarily GTK+ or GNOME apps and have it set with a CDE style main panel and a menu panel above (which is kinda like Mac OSX but the usability is light years different and yes this is not the configuration for those short on screeen real estate).
However, I have KDE set up for my wife because I could make it look very XPish to cut her learning curve and SuSE 7.3 actually has a fairly tasty looking default look. You can play with the styles and Windows decorations and end up something that look very unique.
If you don't like the desktop environments then run WindowMaker. It looks good and is very traditional in the Unix way it does things. You can go to the KDE control-panel and set the kde apps to have NeXtStep look and choose one of the many GTK themes so the Gnomish apps have a Step feel to it. That way you still get the uniformed feeel except for the stock icons.
The great thing about Linux is that you have a zillion or so different choices in the way to do these things.
Its also what makes it pain in the ass for the common user trying to figure what is best for them.
_______________________________________________
ACK
"Unix-style cut&paste is much more efficient and unmatched by Apple-style cut&paste used in Windows"
Except that "Unix-style cut&paste" can't even cut, nor can it paste properly (to replace a selection). Not to mention there's nothing inherantly non-Unixy about a real Apple-style clipboard, just that the apps all have half-assed support (and that includes kde).
The way Windows looks has never been anywhere even
close to being near the top of my long list as to
why I loathe and despise MS.
So to whatever degree, KDE resembles windows I don't give a rat's arse.
Gnome is just too Corporate for my liking,
with Ximian and dumbass Easel.
Sorry but I am still sore at the latter for pissing away so much money that would have done
so much good in the hands of Debian and KDE hackers.
Choice is good.
I choose KDE.
(when I am not at work)
No problems whatsoever here, and our rawhide users haven't found many issues with it either.
By any chance, are you using gcc 3.0.x?
That's broken.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Is anyone else amused by the fact that the maximize window button on Keramik is the same symbol as the eject button on your VCR? :-D
"All the darkness in the world can not quench the light of one small candle."
spam goat dont touch
Why not name it KDE Chi Ro?
:)
cpeterso
I just need a MIDI sequencer, and brahms delivers that+some need extra's... that all ;-)
(i wish i could get it to work (i tried a _lot_))
Thanks, you deserve the karma... that's the info i was looking for!
Now, how's in charge of not releasing the kmusic package... To my opinion this package is quite releasable, isn't it?
-C
I've been in the same boat. Every time I get updates from CVS it seems to have more build bugs. I've only go the damn thing compiled completely twice in the last month and I don't really have the time to be trying every day.
Its been over a week though, so maybe their big hacking session fixed many of those problems.
I suppose I'm not too threatening, presently, but wait till I start Nautilus
somoe one who understands the bottom line :)
Hmmmm.... here's my answer to a few of your points, plus my own reasons for preferring KDE over Windows:
* Why do we care about themes? People like things to look how they want. If you come from mac, make it look like a mac (right down to windowbar button positions), if you come from windows, do the same. If you want your own look, do it!
* I would say it doesn't get confusing after 4. I believe KDE offers the ability to name your desktops, and again, this is choice -- maybe some find it confusing, but others do not.
* Personally, if all way implemented properly (as it is in newer qt3/kde3 apps), Unix-style cut/paste is more effiecient. I can highlight something and press the middle button to paste it somewhere -- easy mouse actions. Or, I can use ctrl-c/ctrl-v.
* Granted, Explorer windows do this -- however, my entire session (licq, noatun, kmail (minimized), konsole, konqueror, gimp (on another desktop), anything else I happen to have open) will appear in the correct spot on logout/login. Windows will *not* do that without create "Startup" shortcuts for each app, and even then it will not recognize whne I close something then logout/login.
*ummm.... I don't know why. Bookmarks is bookmarks, mostly.
*It seems that MS copies most features from other places (KDE incl. perhaps), though KDE also copies from other things.
Anyway, here are features I like in KDE (most of these are available in other WMs):
*window snapping ("magnetic borders", whatever). I don't see this in windows
*right-click/middle-click for horizontal and vertical window maximizing (again, not in windows).
*middleclicking on titlebar to activate and lower window, rightclicking to remain in place, and similar mouse actions (slightly different when clicking on the body of the window). In other words, I can move windows up/down more efficiently, and have the active window not be on top. Quite useful.
*The ability to make _any_ window always-on-top.
*Smart JS/JS popup/Java/Cookie policies so I don't have to worry about sites that what to bombard me with stuff I don't want. (I think IE6 _finally_ has some of this, last I heard)
*Smart searches in the Konqy toolbar (eg "gg:google search terms"). Even better, you can define your own, and have different parameters make up specific parts of the search URL. I think IE has something similar to this now, though.
Please note, lets not start a "who-got-it-first" war, it's pointless. I know other opensource things that have had these features first, and I know that windows also has some of these features. However, for me, when I go into Windows I feel crippled: The features I have listed above I use on a regular basis, and those that windows does not have became painfully obvious when I use it.
I think you've spent far too much time lingering over the blowhole.
I'd like to see a proxy for X applications in the same sense that "screen" is a proxy for terminal applications.
Something like a mock X server for the application to attach to, that then can attach or reattach to a given X server. So, if the local X server crashes you lose nothing. You just reattach the apps to the X server when it restarts.
Of course, that also allows nice things like remotely reattaching apps. Though, it won't help out for something like Unreal.
The one thing that *still* bugs me about KDE is the inability for the panel to work like GNOME. In GNOME, you can have not only multiple workspaces, but rows and columns within a workspace. This allows you to drag stuff across the screen and have it scroll to the next row/column without having to change workspaces. Why can't KDE implement this?
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
One thing I disliked about KDE2 versus KDE 1 was the elimination of the local menu accelerators -- you used to be able to bring up the menu and hit a key corresponding to the unerlined character on your menu item and it would go. Changing their UI like that hindered my use of KDE2. Windows does this, as in Alt-F S for _S_ave, and there are a few sub-menus in KDE2 that use them, but it is impossible to configure. KDE 1 used to do this, and its menu editor would support it by using a menu entry like &Save. As for using the windows key, I alwaus like Ctrl-Esc to bring up the main/start menu in Windows, KDE, FVWM, etc. Ctrl-Esc R gets me a nice useful command prompt on ALL my computers. Another thing difficult with the KDE keybindings is that they are stored as one per function, rather than 1 function per key-combo -- If you used the Win key to open the main menu, then you could not also use the KDE default Alt-F1 to do the same thing.
I got all of the kde3 packages, but where the #$&* do I have to go to get THIS?
error: failed dependencies:
qt >= 3.0.3 is needed by kdelibs-3.0-0.rc3.1
I've searched all over the mirror sites and rpmfind, with no luck!
665: The mark on the forehead of Satan's slightly less evil brother, Stan.
I don't care about themes. It was just an example of something Microsoft ripped off KDE.
* How many desktops do you need? Doesn't it get confusing after 4?
I get confused not using 16 desktops when I got 40 or more windows open. And yes I want 40 windows open.
* How can Unix-style cut&paste be more efficient when it works so clumsely? I couldn't tell you how to do it by keyboard (consistent across apps), and couldn't find instructions on it either.
It works both the Unix-style method (MMB) and the MacOS-style method (keyboard) in KDE and consistently.
* Explorer windows can also reappear after logging out.
Only for the local filesystem which makes them pretty useless. I want webbrowser windows reapearing
* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?
You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.
* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.
I provided a list which KDE had first or Windows still doesn't have. Just because you seem to have a chip in your brain that sais (Windows-> good useful feature, not Windows-> useless feature) doesn't make KDE uninnovative.
And that you obviously didn't even try it for a reasonable amount of time, speaks for itself.
How much is M$ paying you to come here and post you FUD
... do they still insist on ordering the desktop switcher in the downward reading order? (Is this how the chinese read, I'm not sure?)
What I'm talking about is the layout of the desktop switcher in the toolbar looking like this:
1 3
2 4
Why isn't it in the order that the english language reads text? ie:
1 2
3 4
I know you can go for the 'tiny' scheme, where they are all on one line, but that makes a lot of other things ugly.
At least it's not like much earlier KDE versions, where you had:
One Three
Two Four
/rant
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Its not mentioned by Microsoft or in any help files, but there are replacements for the explorer.exe shell in existence that effectively function like putting a new window manager up on Windows OSen. I can't find the official website but here's one that will give you the general drift for LiteStep,
a shell replacement for Windows I know of offhand. My OS of choice is Linux, simply for stability/usability's sake, but there are other desktops available to Windows users beyond the ugly win32/explorer shell.
.
While I might disagree with some of your points, at least you've been more detailed. I wish more people would back up their opinions with a statement about why they have them. More people should say why they like something instead of just saying Linux/KDE Awesome!/Windows horrible, evil, wretched, second-rate, low quality, etc. For a site that has a whole bunch of science related articles, Slashdot has a definate lacke of objectivity.
* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?
You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.
I didn't judge it. You did, and I did try Konquerer, and it didn't impress me much.
* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.
I provided a list which KDE had first or Windows still doesn't have. Just because you seem to have a chip in your brain that sais (Windows-> good useful feature, not Windows-> useless feature) doesn't make KDE uninnovative
* You forgot about the things such as drag and drop, better application integration(which KDE is now starting to do.
And no, I'm not trying to be anti Linux/pro Windows, if that's what you mean. I'm anti Linux zealot, pro Windows pragmatist. All I want is for people here to be more objective with their opinions. If people were more objective and reasoned in their arguments, they wouldn't be so closed minded and mentally sour.
And that you obviously didn't even try it for a reasonable amount of time, speaks for itself.
How long is reasonable? How long should I suffer with something I don't like?
I agree entirely, and this is exactly why I made this post. I have been reading slashdot and the dot (ie dot.kde.org) for quite awhile, and I have seen many such posts, especially when people are talking about their favourite WM or DE (including non-linux ones like MacOS and Windows). People say "I like xxx, yyy sucks ass". This pisses me off so much that I almost respond to such drivel, before remembering that most people who write that crap aren't open to an in-depth look at features or rational reasons, they just want their l337 h4x0r OS, and windoze be damned, man! Personally, I use linux for features, and for apps, for freedom (as in choice), and for flexibility (among other reasons). I can respect MS as a marketing behemoth, but I generally tend away from their products.
So I guess it's really only half a problem as well then. You can tell a physicist, they will never use 0.5 and Quanta in the same sentence.
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
What's happened to font anti-aliasing?
A whole lot of fonts I was using look utterly
horrible now.
Huh?
Why was all you posted just prejudices and hearsay?
It was me who posted spedific examples, remember? Just because you think that everything not available in Windows is useless (that you think that nobody needs more than 4 desktops is typical. Such a coincidence, I bet if MS would have offered up to 6 desktops you would think that 6 desktops is the maximum one might ever need) doesn't mean you are objective.
So far you lack any objective argument.
How long is reasonable? How long should I suffer with something I don't like?
I'd say about 2 weeks of daily usage are needed - not to start being productive (you can use it right away) but to discouver the smart innovative features of KDE - exactly what you think don't exist.
P.S.: Oh and another feature is the Alt-modifier-key that allows you to move and resize windows faster and more comfortably. Windows doesn't do that either.
If you think you are so objective, maybe it's time that you start posting at least one example of a GUI-feature Windows has but KDE hasn't.
Sad that the only major improvement in WinXP (themeing) was copied from KDE, isn't it?
Why was all you posted just prejudices and hearsay?
It was me who posted spedific examples, remember? Just because you think that everything not available in Windows is useless (that you think that nobody needs more than 4 desktops is typical. Such a coincidence, I bet if MS would have offered up to 6 desktops you would think that 6 desktops is the maximum one might ever need) doesn't mean you are objective.
So far you lack any objective argument.
To prejudge means to make a judgement without foundation. I've used KDE, and therefore have foundation, and made no prejudicial statement. Further, how do you purport to know what I think? For all you know, I could love KDE and Linux, but have a few problems with it. The real problem here is that I've made a few favorable comments about Windows and a raised issues with KDE, which apparently makes my arguments "prejudices and hearsay."
Also, these were some of your "specific" examples:
Unix-style cut&paste is much more efficient and unmatched by Apple-style cut&paste used in Windows.
You later expounded on this, but didn't when you first mentioned it. Not objective here.
Konqueror has much better bookmark-handling than any other browser.
Later you said,
You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.
Somewhat more objective the second time, but why didn't you say this the first time? Anyway, you can create bookmark directories in IE, with and without the organizer feature. But no, you can't create them by editing a text file. Sorry. And anyway, I still didn't swoon over the Konqueror bookmark bar. My overall impression of Konquerer was, "Great. Now when I use Linux, I have a browser close to the way IE works! (When it can get through our firewall)"
Oh and another feature is the Alt-modifier-key that allows you to move and resize windows faster and more comfortably. Windows doesn't do that either.
Select your window. Hit Alt-Space, then some excelator key (R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize, etc). Obviously, YOU need to try something for a reasonable length of time before you judge something.
I'd say about 2 weeks of daily usage are needed - not to start being productive (you can use it right away) but to discouver the smart innovative features of KDE - exactly what you think don't exist.
OK, I passed your test months ago. I still didn't prefer the KDE GUI over Linux. Granted that was some version of 2. Still, if I'm going to make some leap from Windows to Linux/KDE combination, I need more than pretty themes. Speaking of themes, I'd like to remind you that the appearance of Windows isn't unmaleable, though you can't make it look like BeOS or a Mac.
If you think you are so objective, maybe it's time that you start posting at least one example of a GUI-feature Windows has but KDE hasn't.
Anyway, my original gripe with most of this discussion is the emphasis on themes. Too much attention is paid to this, and not enough to functionality.
I think we can tell by the subject line. Blanket statements that "Windows People are Clueless" are ignorant and devoid of merit. I don't know how many Linux/KDE professionals there are today, but I do know they are dwarfed by the Windows people. Are all of them "clueless"?
Well, I didn't say KDE is perfect, the main problem I have with it is speed, but that's completely outside the "innovation"-debate (and KDE3 solves this problem to the most part).
Anyway, you can create bookmark directories in IE, with and without the organizer feature. But no, you can't create them by editing a text file.
No, that's not what I meant. In Konqui you can browse your bookmarks and insert a directory directly.
For example you encounter a site you want to bookmark. You go to your bookmarks -> topic , then you decide you want to put it into a subtopic-folder. In any other browser you would leave the bookmarks, fire up the helper-app, browse to the same position, insert the file, then quit, and the bookmark it.
In Konqueror, you realize that a directory is missing, click on "new directory" which is a menu-point directly below the last bookmark and poof- you just created a directory and can bookmark your site. Much faster than the other method.
Select your window. Hit Alt-Space, then some excelator key (R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize, etc). Obviously, YOU need to try something for a reasonable length of time before you judge something.
Why should I be interested in that?
See this.
Look for the chapter "The ALT-key for easier window manipulation"
It's about resizing and moving. I don't see that in "R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize".
It would be really nice to have one key to get to just about everything I'd need under KDE--Such as the Win Key!
In Windows the Win-key is only used to open the start-menu (correct me if I'm wrong), that's not really that great of a feature. But if you really can't live without it, you can redefine KDE's behaviour to open the "K"-menu with it.
Related excelerator keys such as Win-D for the desktop, or Win-M to minimize everything.
AFAIK, KDE3 has added something like this. Don't know details, though.
File extensions. These exist in Linux, but not to the same extent. In Windows, I can easily sort a column of files by their type. Something I cannot do in KDE (again v2?).
Konqueror/KFM could always do that. Back into the v1.x days.
Also, wouldn't it be nice if I could control every aspect of the GUI from within the GUI? Imagine not being required to edit some XFree86 file when I change pointer devices, video cards, etc. Imagine if these were integrated in one place.
That would be the KDE-control center. In SuSE, everything from network-settings to X-configuration can be done in the control center.
Other distros are a bit behind, though. BTW, did you try RedHat? Even RedHat's boss Young said that it's not targeted at the desktop, try SuSE or at least Mandrake next time.
Oh and I didn't mention that the KDE-control center is much better than the one in Windows because it's a tree-like organized structure, not just a directory with random config-tools thrown in.
Something like a registry!
*shudder*
Oh yeah, I really need a binary only thing that is just like a filesystem plus config-files (tree-like structure), only with fewer features and with absolutely no documentation.
I never understood why the Windows-zealots (yes, I use the word zealot here) think that putting settings out of one tree-like structure (the filesystem) into another tree-like structure (the registry) is having it "in one place". Those who think this is "in one place" only repeated MS-marketing without thinking. Pure zealotry.
Just where, pray tell, did Linux use Fisher Price's look anywhere?
It used to be that the "focus" on a webpage was always(?) on the links on the page in KDE3. So, in other words, as I'm typing here in the textarea to fill in this web form, the "focus" is here (and if I hit ENTER, it should do whatever "Enter" means where it is focussed, i.e. it should put a newline in the textarea). Previously, once I hit "enter" in the textarea, the FOCUS was still on the first link in the page, even though it's the textarea that the focus SHOULD have been on, since I'm typing in it. Upon hitting enter, it would go to the first link in the page, rather than adding a line to the text...
(I don't know how coherent that explanation was, but hopefully it helps. The short version is that you couldn't hit "enter" anywhere in a webpage without having it act as though you just clicked on the currently-focussed link on the page...)
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
* Granted, Explorer windows do this -- however, my entire session (licq, noatun, kmail (minimized), konsole, konqueror, gimp (on another desktop), anything else I happen to have open) will appear in the correct spot on logout/login. Windows will *not* do that without create "Startup" shortcuts for each app, and even then it will not recognize whne I close something then logout/login.
Actually, under NT if you turn on the option, Windows will reload everything exactly as you left it, including unsaved notepad Windows and anything else you leave open. This option is off by default because it is very annoying. I think you can find it under your start menu options under 2K/XP.
The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
Yeah, and the ability to drag text, pictures etc from one app into another or onto your desktop (thus it becomes a file) kicks serious ass. The integration between the clipboard and drag n drop, plus the ability to cut and paste anything is what most PC users have never had.