Slashdot Mirror
Indecision 2002
The most common story submission about the U.S. elections held today seems to be that the consortium which typically conducts and reports exit polls has encountered technical difficulties. If only they'd had an open beta program... There have also been a number of stories highlighting problems with new electronic voting machines, a topic Slashdot has hit several times in the past. CNN, the NY Times, and essentially every other U.S. news outfit are following the election results as best they can.
Track the results.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
I'm curious, has someone audited the code for these devices? How do I know that some employee ,who's a hard democrat, republican, or independent, hasn't added his or her little hacks. Like every fifth vote that doesn't agree with his or her view gets changed.
I guess with something as valuable as my vote, I want the source to be public.
On MSNBC, asked about Jeb Bush running for President: "I think he could. Bush has attractive daughters, too... I think we could have Bush's as President for the whole 21st century."
You guys could have posted a reminder to vote today. The election results are all fine and dandy, but a well-written summary of "Remember to vote," voting locations, etc. posted this morning would have been appreciated.
I'd appreciate it if you could keep this in mind for next year. The more informed voters we have out there, the better. Slashdot could really help get the word out (especially on the issues that matter most to geeks!)
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I voted by scantron, essentially, and it was just as accurate as it has been since I was a third-grader. Dammit.
Wasn't Indecision 2000 the name of the campaign news on the Daily Show?
. . . Dewey really didn't defeat Truman.
Exit polls are oftened cited as a problem in our elections. How many times have you seen an exit poll while the election was still going on? All the time and often it simply discourages voters from casting their votes... Why bother is Candidate X is leading in the exit polls. I actually am interested to see if the mid term turn out is greater than normal as a result. Mid term elections are always crappy.
Thalasar
I thought this was interesting. In Lafayette Parish in Louisiana, they are "beta testing" new electronic voting machines for absentee voting.
I think that the "if-voting-could-change-anything-it-would-be-illeg al dept." shows how irresponsible and juvenile /. really is. If everyone thought like you, anyone who felt like it could decide what happens to us. Your voice individually doesn't matter, but don't you realize that it matters when its a part of a group, no matter how large or small that group is. For shame.
__________________________________________
Take comfort in your ignorance.
Grandmaster Plague
This just in: Rich Ruling Class People with Connections Win All Elections in Landslide!
Can you find one person who won that:
1) Didn't take money from Disney, MPAA and/or RIAA?
2) Didn't take money from pro-Israel lobby?
Ya, you had a choice...sure...
Democracy in a capitalist society is an illusion.
Wake up and smell the exploitation!
*sniiiifffffff*
Ahh ya! Smells like Exxon-Mobile is about to use americas army to conquer fresh oil fields!
There is a series of very interesting papers on voting theory, both on paper and electronically, written by a computer science professor and election commissioner. I recommend them highly:
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/voting/
In particular, I recommend the essay on Paper Ballots, that's the theoretical basis for the current electronic systems.
The most interesting thing I've heard on the news today is that one of the international organizations that monitors elections in the Third World is monitoring the election in Florida this time.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
In my small western New York village, we still use the same old-fashioned clunky scary voting machines that have been in use for the past twenty-some-odd years and as of right now have had no problems. This could change down the line but as of 9pm everything was in order.
A lot of the problems and kinks can easily be overcome by having dry runs of the voting machines, but who wants to go to that kind of expense and trouble? Certainly not the government. In any event, in most cases, the only kind of tech support available is the local election officials, whose only training is a one-day seminar some weeks or months prior. A huge number of problems with any kind of voting system--electronic, mechanical, or pen-and-paper based--could be easily fixed by educating the voters and ballot-takers a little bit more. Sure, it'll cost a little more, but it'll be better in the sense that we won't have another inconclusive count...
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
- the developers (h/w and s/w) lack basic systems design skills
- there is no real project management
A big reason projects like mozilla or even openzaurus are so successful is that no one is afraid to test the crap out of them since folks can only benefit if bugs are found and addressed. The developers (or their management) of the voting systems and the VNS aggregator(s) apparantly cared more about getting something out rather than getting something right. (I'm still leery about e-voting/polling at all...I wouldn't be surprised if the Georgia voters got a list of candidates that included CowboyNeal *:^)I also cannot see how CNN or anyone else can have the "guts" to call races without a ton of ground troops with wireless PDAs at a huge number of polls. VNS was supposed to be that for everyone (great job last time around, eh?) and managed to strike out a second time (at least in this case, no news is far better than blatantly wrong news).
Mind the gap...
The State is back together!? I loved their show on MTV. Did you see "Wet Hot American Summer?" Great for any fans of The State.
Vote for Bill Gates! He'll buy Iraq to end this madness!
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
UP YOURS MONDALE... you might not look so stupid running as a 74 year old Politician, had you not critisized President Reagan
Yet, of the 2 of them, which has alzhiemer's and has a chance of understaing what's going on around him?
As for voting glitches, I only have this to say. If you have a complaint about an election process, better to voice it before the election, not during or after when your party's candidate is losing or has lost. The reports that lawyers are on standby for each major party infuriates me. Either the process is goofed to begin with or it isn't. Maybe I'm just an idealist, but I believe any discrepencies with the voting processes are going to affect all candidates, not just losing ones.
You should be voting green, sheesh.
Whitebreads.
Your policies led to 9/11. We'll take it from here.
Obviously you are being sarcastic...?
I mean i think everyone knows by now that Reagan had the CIA train Bin Laden so he could terrorize the Soviets and pull them into "the soviet vietnam" when we overthrew the afghan government the first time...
Oh ya wasn't it Reagan who was providing support to Saddam Hussein at the same time that he was gassing the kurds? Yup.
So i'm sure you must be joking.
they really need to rely on tested technology. just have some government site with news every seccond. Like a blog, as a distraction so the majority dont vote. Only those who have been paid.
Then have the poll using the code of the slashdot poll. accuracy.
That's the one thing I simply don't understand about modern voting rhetoric. How could we possibly place more trust in voting systems simply because they are electronic? All this would require is a single person with a single clue somewhere along the data chain to manipulate the results.
It seems that fraud would become even simpler with computerized voting to me. It's like everyone is jumping on a train without thinking about its destination, or, more to the point, the path it will take to its destination.
Where do the results go? Do they go to separate databases, preferably several separate databases, as soon as a vote is cast? This would seemingly allow for "diffing," for lack of a better term, between multiple sources of final vote counts.
I'm in no shape at the moment to define how the electronic/computerized voting results should be quanitified, but PLEASE, at least let us consider these things, rather than saying to ourselves "Well, it's computerized now, so at least there will be no more fraud."
If we're going to redesign how the votes in this nation are counted, and I believe that we are all in agreement that this system of voting desperately needs to be revamped in this modern age (please feel free to tell me I'm wrong), that we can sit down and discuss how it should be done, rather than allowing our morbidly ignorant "representative government" to tell us how it should, and will be done for us.
Oh, wait, this is the US. I forgot, we have no say. Ah, well, cross your fingers and hope for the best.
1) Ballotscape creates the most innovative and foolproof voting software.
2) Ballotscape's software becomes installed on voting machines nationwide.
3) Microsoft releases "innovative" MS-Vote for free.
4) Microsoft embeds MS-Vote into Windows.
5) Microsoft gives away Dell voting machines to the States as a condition for overcharging for licenses.
6) Gates/Dell presidential ticket mysteriously captures 90% of the popular vote (Jobs/Feiss ticket only receives 5%).
Are you joking? I mean seriously, are you joking? If you are, I can understand the AC's comment being modded down; however, I could not catch any sarcasm in your comment.
Please, tell me you are joking.
Oh, and don't mod me down, I really want to know.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
If the general public learns as a matter of habit to just go to bed and find out the full count the next day, the United States will be a great deal better off.
Btw, anybody else depressed about their selection of candidates? I had a choice between corrupt Gray Davis, or incompetent Bill Simon. It was a tough choice. Voted green.
Anybody in the North Carolina care to explain Liddy Dole to me. What were you thinking?
---
When you come to a fork in the road, take it! --Yogi Berra--
I'm telling ya, if we only had a dictatorship then we would never have to deal with this nonsense voting again!
I currently reside in South Korea so I have to vote via absentee ballot and I often wonder if my vote is really counted. I am reassured now though to hear that everyone else who has "turned out" to vote in person, will have the same insecurites that I have towards voting. Perhaps someday they will have a system that works...
...for now I guess we are stuck with the same 'ol buggy systems...kinda like a Microsoft Product.
"A show of hands from those who vote for the Republican Nominee"
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
I'll probably be showing my Republican bias here, but if you want state by state results FROM THE STATE, the only place I've found them is http://www.drudgereport.com ...
I wouldn't touch the Drudge Report with a 10-foot pole, and yes, you're showing your bias. The Drudge Report is basically unsubstantiated gossip posing as news; why would I want to check it for anything?
And, as a Minnesota Republican: UP YOURS MONDALE...
I know you're both a Republican and a Minnesotan, so it may be hard, but try to show at least a little dignity, ok?
Republicians and Open Source together the new ANTI-TRUST.
I can see it now you go to touch the screen for a non-republician canaidate, and the order on the ballet changes. Kind of like those joke dialog boxes that the OK button moves when you try to click it.
And of the two, despite diseases like Alzheimer's, who could get the job done? Ronaldus Magnus.
Uh, Reagan is about 20 years older than 74 now. Reagan didn't stop aging. Mondale could very well develop it too over the next 20 years.
1. Polls close at 7pm like they're supposed to.
2. Democrats challenge poll closing, say there are still more voters who need to vote (for the democrats, of course).
3. Democrats go to Democrat/liberal judge and get an ex parte injunction, keeping the polls open a few more hours.
4. Republicans challenge the extension, say any vote cast after the polls were supposed to have closed should be discarded.
5. After several hours of bickering, whining, and screaming, Republicans win. Late votes discarded.
6. Democrats accuse Republicans of closing polls to keep the hard workin' man (who votes Democrat) out.
7. Republicans say "no, we really love the hard working man, and we respect the rules -- the polls should have closed when they were supposed to. The time of poll closing was announced weeks ago!"
8. Democrats respond: "no, you hate the hard working man, and we were just trying to fight for him."
9. Republicans crawl away.
10. Repeat next election.
---------------
It boggles my mind that this same scenario happens each and every election day, in countless cities across the country. You'd think the republicans would have enough brain cells to get the democrats to agree (or at least give them certified, return receipt notice) as to the time the polls are going to close. I guess the Democrats have some pretty hard numbers that show a vast majority of people who intend to vote after the polls close are democrats (go figure), so even in bad faith, it is to the democrats' advantage to make every effort to extend the time of poll closing. If they push it through, they get more votes, and if the republicans oppose, worst case scenario is they get to say "the republicans tried to close the polls on the workin' man!"
It's shameful, but what's even more shameful is the republicans not figuring this shit out.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
I swear, nothing good ever goes before a vote to the people. If something is a good idea the state would of passed it already. If something is a bad idea, they put it for a vote and make it in complicated wording praying that people are stupid enough to pass it. Then when people complain the people in charge just say, "Hey, you passed it yourself!" muhahaha. Damnit.
In Oklahoma we had tons of state questions before us. One of them was if we should ban cockfighting or not. I am from the school of thought where I believe the government should not make laws regarding morality, your rights end where my nose begins. Stupid chickens, kill them all for all I care. So I start reading the bill and I psychologically I am thinking, "Ok.. I want cockfighting, so I will select yes." But then I read it closer and went whoops, "Yes means we will ban it, ok pick No." Gah. And that was the easiest one, some of the other state questions they had for a vote I didn't even understand and I scored a 33 on my ACT... Bah.
Anyway, cock fighting is cool. I am going to miss it, apparently it is going to be banned by a margin of just 10,000 votes. How freaking sad.
Now, if VNS were as good at predicting the outcome of software development projects, as they are at predicting election results... Hmmm, maybe the problem is, they are.
Speaking of elections--Today was the election, but slashdot didn't even run a story asking geeks to vote. You'd think that a site that cares so much about "Your Rights Online" would at least point out a couple of candidates who have either very bad records on such things or very good records. You know, if all we do is whine about the DMCA, congress-critters will continue to screw us over. Voting, and getting other people to vote will make them sit up and take notice. Well, maybe 2004.
JOOC, buy why do we need electronic voting systems? Why not just go to an older-style system, like the ScanTron still used to grade tests and the like in public schools (and some colleges)? It's not like we need anything high-tech for such an old concept. It's simple: you use ScanTron sheets, and if someone has a write-in vote, you manually tabulate those. You will never eliminate the need for manual counting of votes, expecally if you have a dispute over the number of votes from an area. If not ScanTron, the use a simple system. Voting definatly follows the KISS principle, the more complex you make it, the more that could go wrong.
:D:D
:)
And don't forget Murphy's Law: What ever can go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Just my Opinion, I could be wrong
--CypherDragon
The exit poll service that suddenly announced they would have no polling data late this afternoon is a monopoly owned by the major TV news outlets. Instead of nearly all the election outcomes being known when the polls in CA closed an hour ago, most races are still up in the air and the TV coverage is going full tilt. This has to be very good for ratings.
The corporations are still in control.
Sure the puppets change, but the masters are still strong as ever.
Mondale is a dinosaur. The democrats choose poorly. They went for "familiar" but ended up choosing our grandpa. Face it, they made the decision quickly, and without any polling data. And there was their mistake. Clinton's kind would have "focus grouped" and polled this thing into the fucking ground, until they came up with the perfect candidate. For whatever reason (*that* will be the interesting 20/20 hindsight story), the MN democrats jumped the gun and choose grandpa. Don't join their folly, nomad. Fess up.
When the republicans win this means the gap between rich and poor will increase significantly faster than under a "democract" regime.
Once the poor are far enough from the rich it will help to destabilize the country and make imperialist adventures like the invasion and conquest of iraq much more difficult.
Even though the real poor of the cruel capitalist regime in america are hidden away in third world countries like cambodia and columbia where they can't rebel against the exploiters there are enough poor, unemployed, uninsured people in america that are starting to see through the smoke screen of happy pesudo-economic horseshit that gets printed in the propoganda rags of the bourgeoisie.
Won't you realize that america is the poorest and most backwards of all developed nations once you strip off the top 5%?
Therefore, the only person who can validate the fairness of any particular voting machine would be yourself. This goes far beyond understanding software code. You would also have to verify the hardware (every last connection!) and the compiler that is used to compile the software that runs on the voting machine. Practically speaking, this is impossible.
This is why electronic voting machines are a bad idea. Sure, they might be easier for senior citizens to use, but, unlike a paper ballot where any kind of tampering would be fairly obvious, electrons are simply not auditable. Therefore, paper ballot systems are almost infinitely* more reliable than electronic systems could ever hope to be.
* this is not based on any mathematical calculation.
Software piracy is victimless theft.
You post is completely idiotic.
1. Poll don't close at 7:00. In CA they close at 8:00 which often isn't enough time to have everyone vote. If people arrive at 7:45 and there is a line for voting booths? Should their vote not count? For example today an Arkansas decreed the polls stay up till 10:00 PM because at least one county ran out of ballots. If your polling place runs out of ballots, does that mean your vote doesn't count?
In major cities getting off work to go to you polling place can take time and cost money. Since voting is not a holiday, not everyone can afford to take time to get to the polling place early. Why on earth should late votes be discarded? What's the point of disenfanchising someone? Because the polling place is supposed to be closed? This is democracy in action not a 7/11. The sort of rules bound thinking you are displaying is dangerous in a democracy.
Here's another clue -> Check the legal precedents for late ballots. You will find that even the currnet Supreme Court tends to error on the side of equal protection.
As far as the republicans trying to close the plls on the working man, isn't that EXACTLY the case? Are you saying,"Can't take time off for work?" Well screw you, we are going to make sure you don't get to vote. I find it amazing that this is OK for you. Are you sure you are in the right country?
I don't think you realize how dangerous it is to "discard" votes (and why almost all the time those votes are counted, not discarded). Democracies like ours operate on the principle one person, one vote. Any attempts to disenfranchise the right to vote is wrong. From poll taxes to roadblocks in Florida, thwarting the democractic process is extremely damaging to society in the long run.
Thalasar
If Slashdot did a good job of publishing information on who to vote into/out-of office (based on geek issues), then they wouldn't be able to post stories bitching about how much proposed bill yadda-yadda-yadda sucks for geeks. And then we wouldn't be able to read the dozens of responses posted bitching about slashdot not doing anything to harness their readership in politically.
I mean what fun would that be?
"And like that
Right on. For the next round of elections, the Democrats are proposing a solution whereby all African Americans of voting age will simply be counted and added to the poll results for the Democratic ticket. How fucking patronized can one group of people stand to be?
I haven't seen anything on this, perhaps I just haven't looked in the right spots, but do the machines allow write in votes like the current ballots do? (Hey if I don't see anybody I like I will write in the name of someone I do like, or just leave it blank).
Oh and the people suggesting scan-trons, my school used those for ASB and class officers, the even had a spot for you to write in someone, although when 70% of the Junior class wrote in the same person for class president (the class president was running w/o an opponent, and this other person jokingly said to vote for him) the ASB person really got annoyed because the machine tells them when there was a write in and they had to check it.
I think this is a good thing. Pre-election polling and exit poling tends to compromise the "sanctity" of the democratic process. In other words, if my vote has been counted before I've cast it, then, really, how important is my participation? At the risk of baiting, I would go as far as to say that there that a large number of (voting) Americans think of elections as a horse race: They pick (and vote for) who they think is going to win. This is pretty counter to what the "secret ballot" is supposed to be. Seriously, this country has some serious problems, and its not "the man" that's behind it.
There are also problems with the mechanical voting machines and "scan-in" ballots as well.
There's no such thing as a perfect voting system.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Hollings is holding his seat till 2004..
Nice troll. I find it interesting that your post is the first one that mentions race though.
Thalasar
Nomad, if you ever stop fearing the "other side" (hell, I read the {Red}Star Tribune every day), and look at Drudge, you might see that as I said, the results are FROM THE STATES... direct links to STATE exit polls and counts. Are you still upset about that "unsubstantiated" rumour about clinton getting it on with an intern? You know, Ms. Lewinsky, the story Matt Drudge first broke?
as for the dignity, I think I showed it quite well by NOT pointing out how all socialists through history have gone down (up?) in flames... like Stalin, Marx, Hitler, Welstone...
Instead, I pointed out a fact: In 1983 as a Democratic candidate for President, Mondale argued that Reagan was too old. Now, almost 20 years later Mondale is 74 (for shame! The same age as Reagan in 1983), Modale is shaky, stutters, lapses (Reagan didn't start showing signs of his disability until 1989). He had to eat his words. Also, remember those debates, the ones in 83? Kill the Military Budget! That was Mondale's War Cry. Higher taxes means more people earning money! That was his socio-political view.
Think about it, if you make more than 46,500.00 annually, you are "rich" according to the democrats; and therefore should be taxed at 15-50 percent the rate as that of a person making 25,000.00 (I pay 40% taxes, in Minnesota, welfare recipients receive on average a 5% of their anual income as a "tax credit"). Dignity is my paying for my daughter's school, and not whining that it's your job to pay her way. Dignity is my paying my own insurance, and financing my own retirement, instead of demanding that the government pay my latter years, or for my health care.
7 was just an average time i picked outta nowhere. It's 7pm in some places, 8pm in others, 10pm in yet others. Often depends on the time zone. That clarification being made, I stand by the rest of my post.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
The 93,000 people that were not allowed to vote during the 2000 election in Florida were still on the list this time around. The company who created that list of supposed felons and dead people for Katherine Harris says that if Harris had not crossed off most of their checking processes off of the contract and they were allowed to process that list that the end result would be a list of approximately 3000 names. Ninety-one thousand people (mostly African American Democrats, curiously enough) would be allowed to vote today (and two years ago) if they were allowed to do their job.
The State of Florida, when confronted with this information, admitted that the list was flawed and that they would get it fixed...some time in 2003. After the current election.
For more information check out Greg Palast's book "The Best Democracy Money Could Buy". It's a heck of a read. There was also an article over at Salon late last week but it is in their premium contect section.
Actually, that was one of Reagan's better turnarounds; Mondale said he wouldn't hold Reagan's age against him, and Reagan replied saying, fine, he wouldn't hold Mondale's youth and inexperience against *him*.
The crowd laughed, and Reagan clearly won the debate.
I sure hope whoever Mondale's running against is older than he is, or you'll look REALLY REALLY STUPID.
Wait, you do already, unthinking twit.
Chucky Chees
a state can't legalize something that is federally outlawed.
The federal government can't outlaw commerce within a state, can it? According to the U.S. Constitution, article 1, "The Congress shall have power ... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes ... To declare war ... To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers" (my emphasis). The 10th Amendment gives the states the right to regulate anything not in Congress's exclusive domain. (The 14th Amendment limits that slightly by applying most of the Bill of Rights to the states.)
If banning beverages containing ethanol required an amendment to the Constitution, then how can Congress get away with banning pot? That should be the State of Nevada's right to put on the ballot.
Case law citations welcome.
Will I retire or break 10K?
(One quick clarification: I hate using the term geek.)
/.-eers hates Senator Hollings? Do you find yourself actually paying more attention to politics now than you did even 3 or 4 years ago?
Call it flamebait/offtopic/troll/whatever if you want, but it's an honest question:
When was the last time having a good working knowledge of senators and politicians was necessary for the average geek? Is this the first time period in American history where politics play a vital role in our daily lives insofar as the comingling of our PCs and freedoms? DRM? Napster? RIAA invasions into our home PCs? The Patriot Act? Before recent years, can you think of the geek community despising someone for the same reasons as a great deal of
It's not really an issue of the technically-literate (is that better? Yeesh) being socially responsible citizens, but I'll bet that at the past 2 or 3 elections, geek turnout has been higher than normal at least in part because issues that directly affect us have been in the spotlight. Perhaps we feel that it's our responsiblity to at least sort of steer things in what we believe to be the proper direction? I dunno. I'm stuck at work until 3am, I'm bored and I thought I'd see if anyone would bite.
Vote Green.
Vote Libertarian.
Just don't get confused and vote Libertarian National Socialist Green.
Will I retire or break 10K?
nearly all laws congress makes that seem to have no authority to to do so, are based on this precedent. The intra-state activity could effect inter-state commerce. But this has been streteched to the breaking point. For example, why is it a federal crime to use a hand gun near a school, or to commit a "hate" crime. there is nothing in the constitution that seems to permit this.
scooby snacks all around!
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Good lord, here we go again. I don't "fear" the other side, but I do know shoddy journalism when I see it.
Regarding Drudge, even the Inquirer gets some stories right, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ditch the Times.
Secondly, Reagan was obviously unfit for office; I don't know if his almost unbelievably bad memory was due to age or Alzheimer's, but whatever it was he was probably the most clueless president we've ever had.
Thirdly, your Generic Slashdot Rant on all the taxes poor little you has to pay is old-hat, vague on the figures, and ironic considering George Bush I's massive tax hikes.
Umm...I am a Republican too (generally...I will vote for another candidate if I think they are just plain better for the office, etc.), but I've gotta say - check your attitude.
I DON'T want to see the conservative folks on Slashdot acting as childish as half of the "liberal" crowd.
One of them was if we should ban cockfighting or not.
Be careful: if you vote "Ban it!" then, depending on the way the bill is worded, Nintendo may be banned from selling its animal combat simulation products in your state. Yeah, sure, Nintendo's official line is that it's based on the Japanese sport of beetlefighting, but American kids know what really happens, especially in a Pidgeot vs. Fearow match.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Damn straight!! It's time people start reading the constitution and not taking for granted that the federal government can just do what it pleases. The constitution carefully sets bounds on federal power for very good reason. We have become so inured that we just let them do whatever they want, without asking if it's constitutional. It amazes me that we don't see judges throwing fits over the liberties the feds have taken with our liberties.
Thanks for the link; that site is really good. 'Specially the "Paper Ballots" essay, as you said.
It's pretty interesting to see just how much thought and design has gone into the current (paper) system to guard against even highly rare/improbable forms of election fraud. Taking all that into account, it seems unlikely that any electronic voting system will ever achieve the transparency necessary to replace paper.
(Not only to protect against fraud, even, but also to make it obvious to distrusting observers that fraud isn't being committed.)
iSKUNK!
If you can't make it to the polls on time then you should have used an absentee ballot. Thats why they were invented.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Nice rhetoric. This by itself ends any rational discussion. It's tantamount to Godwin's law.
One suggestion: open your mind. Try it.
Any proof to these claims? No links from salon please, we all know which direction they lean. By the way I read a book about how the holocaust was faked. Its not true but yet its a book. I can't believe people like you can continue to exist without imploding from the vacuum in your head.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I've got two words that should fully capture how encouraged I would be by that prospect:
John Ashcroft
The Republicans had the Senate for a few months and it brought us the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act, some of the most frightening abrogrations of basic constitutional protections, gutted antitrust enforcement, and who knows how many other goodies.
Fritz Hollings will be perfectly capable of doing damage whether the Democrats stay on top or not. As I recall, Republican Congresses didn't stop the DMCA or the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension act from sailing through.
The fun thing about Arkansas, though, is that everyone in line when the polls close does get to vote.
So even if they did run out of ballots, the polls didn't need to be open extra late for these people to get their votes in.
This is why the democratic judge's ruling was overturned, no doubt... I can't imagine the resulting difficulty in the 'did this ballot belong to someone who came here after original closing time?' vein. At least it wasn't *THAT* close a race.
This push to legalize marijuana is being secretly funded by Frito-Lay and Hostess.
...for pot, is not important?
Not to mention the billions that are being spent?
Gee, it seems like arresting almost a million people every year for pot while most of europe
has decrimed to various degrees is a little more than silly; its a reflection of the intransigeance of the maoist leaders.....Im sorry, wrong country, but still the right example.
I love the drug war article by Vin Suprinowycz in the Vegas paper entitled "Relax your muscles" (in reference to the charming gangbang rituals of american jails (makes Midnight Express look like camp).
The drug war is serious because it is an endless money pit where the only victor are those moral minority fire breathers.
And Nevada is the PERFECT choice for this because they wrote the book when it came to flauting the federal laws the prostitution and gambling.
I find it truly amazing that anyone thinks that this post was insightful int he least.
>Besides, people will do it regardless of the law >anyway.
The principle of Dutch policy is called the separation of markets, yours is "let's let the dealer who would rather sell you smack or blow control the market".
The violence that accompanies the war on marijuana isnt due to the plant but to prohibition surrounding it.
As someone who worked as a barman to pay for college, there is not one person who has worked the field that cant tell you the diffrence between a room of drunks and a room of stoners.
(especially the boys in security)
gg
http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat =TOPBIZ&feed=reu&src=201§ion=news&news_id=reu- sta438301&date=20020504&alias=/alias/money/cm/ nw
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Just to clarify, this happened in Arkansas today.
You seem to keep forgetting that Democrats are complete shysters.
In case anyone was wondering...
Did y'all pass third grade, or wut?
A proper voting system administered via computing with adequate security measures would be fine. This means primarily NO INTERNET CONNECTIONS. If the voting machines were hooked up to any network, then the results could be tampered with by crackers or others.
... ... ...
A proper voting system also means using Linux or OpenBSD as the OS, not Windows 2k/XP, both of which aren't nearly as secure (or as stable) as a well-configured Linux or OpenBSD system. Also, they aren't controlled by proprietary interests like MS which would find nothing wrong with tampering with an election.
Also, of course, a proper program is needed, with an easy to use interface, with clear instructions.
Something like this would do for electing the Congressman:
1. Choose a Candidate for the Congressman by touching his name with your finger: X, Y, Z
Click preview to preview your voting selections.
2. You have selected:
For Congressman: X
3. If these are the candidates you want to vote for, touch YES! with your finger. If not, touch NO! with your finger.
If person touches NO!, back to #1, with previous selections highlighted, and allowing user to change it.
Very simple. Very effective. Even someone in Florida could figure it out. At the very least, you won't be counting divits and chads.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
I suppose you're one of those who champion the Reagan lore, heralding his "anti-tax", smaller government crusade that was neither. The Reagan regime enacted one of the largest tax increases in U.S. history AND increased the scope, size, and debt of the federal government to record levels.
The personal interest deduction phaseout that was a result of the 1986 tax act had the effect of increasing taxs anywhere from 10-25% for the average working American. Student loans, car loans, credit card payment - the interest on those loans was deductable - this change boosted the tax paid by Americans while implementing a horde of special interest loopholes for the elite.
AZspot
America, It's the best democracy money can buy.
is the servers hosting results sites. CA official site is just crawling right now. This is worse than /.
Sig is on vacation
The BBC broke this story from what I understand.
4 11 5.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/117
If you think an margin that was well within the margin of error is good enough to decide something as important as a US presidential election, you are a fool in my opinion.
I've got to know: Whose frickin stupid idea was it to have US elections held on a TUESDAY, that isn't even a public holiday for the purpose?
;)
I mean, surely it MUST be realised that the people who are going to avoid voting are those that cannot afford take the time off of work to vote, on what is likely to be a pretty cold day. Essentially, having Election Day on what is an ordinary work day in the chill of November is invariably going to be a HUGE disincentive for the 'lower orders' to participate. It just seems so blatantly intended to discriminate that it just boggles the mind.
Here in Australia, we ALWAYS have elections on Saturdays, leaving virtually no good reason for not being able to turn up to vote, even if we didn't have compulsory voting. It's practical, and accomodates most everyone. Very few people have to get special time off to vote, since the booths are open from about 7 in the morning until 6 at night.
Oh yeah -- here, we put NUMBERS in the boxes (proportional voting rather than first-past-the-post), count the votes BY HAND, and can still have a reliable election result the same night. Stick that in your corn-cob pipes and smoke it.
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
This is amazing. Nearly every thing I read said the electronic voting things are working out pretty well. Even the article linked by ./
Don't forget to vote!
I voted earlier this afternoon in Colorado (city of Lakewood). The system was very easy to understand, much as you alluded to.
There was no internet/network connection to each voting booth box. The people running the voting would take a hardware cartridge (like a Nintendo cartrigde of old) and plug in into the voting booth tablet to activate it, and then they remove it. Apparently they first "activated" it in some main computer. It was a touch-screen tablet PC with a straightforward interface... click the candidate you want with your finger. It then showed a big X next to who you voted for. If you wanted to change it, you could click a different candidate, and the X would move to their name.
Several pages of votes later, you get to review a list of all of your votes. If they look satisfactory, you push a "VOTE" button at the top of the tablet, which flashes red when you are ready to finish voting. Press it and you are done. I didn't see what happens after that. I imagine the computers keep a tally of votes on each, and they are plugged into the main server at some point, or the "cartridges" can be used to download the vote data and they plug into the main server.
But the main point is, there was no internet connection, no keyboard, a proprietary "cartridge" system for passing some kind of voter data or to activate the terminal for voting. Obviously I don't know the OS it was running, but it did seem fairly straightforward with no obvious ways to mess with it. Not to mention that there were 4 election representatives there overseeing everything and it would be way obvious if anyone tried to mess with the machines in any way.
I don't know if they had any kind of built in UPS, because someone could pull the plug out of the wall easily... but overall they looked like good voting machines with proprietary hardware, which is a good thing IMO...
Mark
>I guess the Democrats have some pretty hard numbers that show a vast majority of people who intend to vote after
>the polls close are democrats
I would imagine the reason to be that anybody who needs to vote after 7:00 either had to work late (and as you said, the common man tends to vote Democratic) or is a college student and was in class all day (and of course, we know conservatives love to complain about how highly educated people - college professors - tend to be liberals)
But of course, we all know you can't vote after the polls close...unless of course, you're in the military...
Twenties Retirement
"If only they'd had an open beta program" Then instead of technical difficulties, the thing wouldn't work at all!
The most democratic bourgeois republic is no more than a machine for the suppression of the working class by the bourgeoisie, for the suppression of the working people by a handful of capitalists.
Even in the most democratic bourgeois republic "freedom of assembly" is a hollow phrase, for the rich have the best public and private buildings at their disposal, and enough leisure to assemble at meetings, which are protected by the bourgeois machine of power. The rural and urban workers and small peasants -- the overwhelming majority of the population -- are denied all these things. As long as that state of affairs prevails, "equality", i.e., "pure democracy", is a fraud.
"Freedom of the press" is another of the principal slogans of "pure democracy". And here, too, the workers know -- and Socialists everywhere have explained millions of times -- that this freedom is a deception because the best printing presses and the biggest stocks of paper are appropriated by the capitalists, and while capitalist rule over the press remains -- a rule that is manifested throughout the whole world all the more strikingly, sharply and cynically -- the more democracy and the republican system are developed, as in America for example...
The capitalists have always use the term "freedom" to mean freedom for the rich to get richer and for the workers to starve to death. And capitalist usage, freedom of the press means freedom of the rich to bribe the press, freedom to use their wealth to shape and fabricate so-called public opinion. In this respect, too, the defenders of "pure democracy" prove to be defenders of an utterly foul and venal system that gives the rich control over the mass media. They prove to be deceivers of the people, who, with the aid of plausible, fine-sounding, but thoroughly false phrases, divert them from the concrete historical task of liberating the press from capitalist enslavement.
>You must be new around here. The problem is that many with the worst records (Hollings) are democrats.
You must be newer. The "Worst coders in Washington" story lists the lawmakers behind the bills slashdot tends to complain about and its something like 90% Republican.
Source: http://www.aotc.info/archives/000152.html
>They would rather ignore one or 2 issues for the "greater good" of keeping the democrats in power.
Remember to turn down your radio before you call Rush Limbaugh.
hmm, I just read the actual article. It says:
Democrats asked for the initial order because some precincts in Pulaski County ran out of ballots.
In other words, people are showing up on time and not being able to vote because the equipment isn't working/available. The Democrats are trying to fix the problem, and the Republicans are trying (successfully, it seems) to stop them.
Florida, anyone?
Twenties Retirement
Well, it's hard to tell how well it's working. At the very least, I think they've improved their prediction system. It seems to be a combination of exit polls, a calculation of how close the race is, and how the vote goes historically. There's a page on CNN about it, but I have to admit I only skimmed it. =)
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2002/pages/how.html
~ Leilah
OH GOD!!! Its another TIE!!!
In Alameda county, the only CA county to have electronic voting, it went really well. I couldn't tell what OS they were using, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't windows. People were commenting on how easy it was to vote. Nice job whoever made the system!
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
My Representative, Dennis Kucinich, was re-elected in my House district (Ohio 10).
This is the same man who, during his tenure as Mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, once caught his hair on fire during a press conference.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
No, YOUR post is completely idiotic.
/. :) ) than vote.
I don't think you realize how dangerous it is to "discard" votes (and why almost all the time those votes are counted, not discarded).
If people arrive at 7:45 and there is a line for voting booths? Should their vote not count?
If your in line when the polls close, you still get to vote, if you show up after, too bad.
For example today an Arkansas decreed the polls stay up till 10:00 PM because at least one county ran out of ballots. If your polling place runs out of ballots, does that mean your vote doesn't count?
That's a different situation because the state screwed up, not the voter who decided that time limits were for sissies.
In major cities getting off work to go to you polling place can take time and cost money. Since voting is not a holiday, not everyone can afford to take time to get to the polling place early.
Two easy solutions-1)Early voting: Most states(At least tennessee does it) allow you to vote a week or two in advance, theyre giving you a whole week or so to find a frickin minute to get out there, what more do you need 2)Absentee ballot:If you are just amazingly busy, you can vote by mail, which doesnt involve missing work.
Why on earth should late votes be discarded? What's the point of disenfanchising someone? Because the polling place is supposed to be closed?
Because in America, we have this thing we like to call 'the rule of law'. By law, if you get there late, you dont vote. If you dont like the law, get it changed. At least in tennessee, I cant recall anyone proposing a change to the law. It's not disenfranchising someone, we're bringing them to the water, so to speak, but they just insist on waiting untill it's dried up. Through early voting or absentee ballots, theres plenty of other opportuinites to vote that people are just too lazy/stupid to use.
Here's another clue -> Check the legal precedents for late ballots. You will find that even the currnet Supreme Court tends to error on the side of equal protection.
From what I see in the precidents, the Supreme Court wasnt saying that people can disregard laws willy-nilly, but in specialised cases where the state was at fault in the delay there was an extension. As far as the republicans trying to close the plls on the working man, isn't that EXACTLY the case?
Not one bit. I wish MORE people voted regardless of how they vote because the only way there will be change is through people voting.
Are you saying,"Can't take time off for work?" Well screw you, we are going to make sure you don't get to vote. I find it amazing that this is OK for you. Are you sure you are in the right country?
You're beating the same drum, but once again, there are other opportunites to vote, and I find it hard to believe that there are that many people who are working from 7(or whenever the poles open) to 8pm(or whenever they close). It's just a situation where some people have 'more important' things to do(watch friends, post to
Actually, the idea is to not let people in violation of the law vote in the first place, but that's an aside.
Democracies like ours operate on the principle one person, one vote. Any attempts to disenfranchise the right to vote is wrong. From poll taxes to roadblocks in Florida, thwarting the democractic process is extremely damaging to society in the long run.
I agree, disenfranchising voters is the worst thing that can happen, but the law's the law and there are ample opportuinites for people to vote, they just choose to not invoke those rights.
-Bucky
owned his own land, consumed his own food, raised his own seed and even made his own farming implements. Yet when he grew a federally banned crop they cracked down.
Wickard v. Filburn was not about a banned crop but rather about private growth and consumption competing with a rationed crop. Marijuana, on the other hand, is banned; therefore, the precedent may not strictly apply.
Besides, the Lopez case seems to represent a turnaround in the Supreme Court's view of the loose interpretation of Congress's enumerated powers. A win for the "good guys" in Eldred v. Ashcroft would also show that there still exist some things outside Congress's enumerated powers.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Why couldnt they just absentee vote or vote early? I was at school all day and at work all night, so I planned ahead and voted yesterday by mail, what's the difficulty in that?
-Bucky
remember: the great experiment? ;)
Most countries in Europe (and, I assume, the World), have been successfully experimenting with a revolutionary voting method:
1. Voters are given a piece of "paper". On this "paper" are the names of the candidates or parties, followed the respective picture or symbol, followed by an empty square.
2. Using a device known as "pen", the voters proceed to make a "cross" (a highly optimised mark, consisting of two straight lines) inside the "square" that corresponds to the person or party they wish to vote for.
3. The voters then fold this paper two or three times and insert it in a large "box" (a device for storing pieces of paper).
4. Once voting is over, advanced counting machines known as "people" (usually groups of volunteers, with one or two official representatives) take the pieces of paper out of the box and look at the marks made with the pens. They write down how many "votes" there were for each candidate. This process typically takes less than six hours, including one recount.
5. (This part will sound obvious to most people familiar with democracy, but americans may find it surprising) The candidate with the most votes wins.
It's a relatively inexpensive and ecological process, since the paper can be recycled. But, most of all, it works.
RMN
~~~
Don't slashdot the server. CNN's servers can take the load better.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2002/pages/ballot/
As an undergrad in college, I worked on some of the software written to tally votes in Missouri (back when I was a pascal coder!). The way the system worked is as follows:
All the individual polls fed their ballots into punch-card readers. When completed, those readers would then dial up and connect to a central server over plain ol' voice line. They would then upload a tab-delimited ASCII file to the server which would then collate the votes and print a report. There was (as far as I could tell) no system to authenticate that the tallies recieved by the server were from the polls that they were supposed to be from. If you wanted to, there's a million ways you could defraud this system that have nothing to do with paper vs. electronic ballots. At some point, all the votes get counted by a computer, and if you want to fix an election "h4x0r" style, that's where you would do it, regardless of how the votes were collected in the first place.
Electronic ballots reduce the rate of ballot error, not voter fraud; Which is a human problem, not a technical one.
The Tribune was the one with the early deadline, Republican ownership, and cavalier attitude. And I don't think they've ever quite lived it down.
But I'm grateful to them for an all-time best political photo.
Please repeat after me: CONGRESS IS THE LAWMAKING BODY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Now tell me, oh enlightened one... who was it that controlled Congress during the Reagan presidency? Who was it that was responsible for tying up every trivial bill with enough pork to choke a small horse? Who was it, in fact, that did each and every thing you blame on Reagan?
C'mon. I know, it's hard... you can say it with me, if that helps:
D - E - M - O - C - R - A - T - S
There! See how easy that was? Now, let's try it again: who was in control of the lawmaking body (Congress, remember?) during the Clinton years? You remember - booming economy, low unemployment, everyone happier than a pig in poo? OK, OK, we'll say it together again:
R - E - P - U - B - L - I - C - A - N - SWhile I'll admit some might consider a mere 20 years to be too short a time to draw any strong conclusions, the evidence seems to indicate that while a Democratic controlled congress spends money like a compulsive shopper with bad math skills [1], a Republican congress is actually fairly good for the economy in particular and the nation in general.
[1] Actually not a very good analogy. I've seen compulsive shoppers, and even they have trouble flinging money around with the same abandon as a Democrat-controlled Congress.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
What a wonderful day! As a "compassionate" conservative, we have finally taken Amerika back to where it belongs, at the top of the world's heap! Bye Bye pussy-ass treaties that tie our hands. Hellow Iraki oil fields! Missil defense boondoggles. Me and my fellow CEOs can now fulfill our goal of raping every US company and increasing our take to 2000x the lowly pissant delivery boy. Oh and the judges we will get. All liberals go to jail now. I'm just creaming at the possibilities. Money money money money money money money! Rest of the world, who?
I voted in Harford County Maryland. And it was simple as heck, and worked fine. You just complete the arrow to the person (party, name and other information clearly marked) with a black marker. and if you mess up, they give you a new one. I must say, its a joy to go vote in a quaint little elementary school.
Ah, well at least this isn't a 'victory' for demorcracy like the election of Marion Berry. Oh yeah. That's something to talk about. =P
This isn't a redundant post; I just set my threshold to 6.
Can't you people fill in a fucking circle?
The vast majority of the elected leaders of the state of Nevada have spoken out against ballot question 9 (legalization of marijuana), in addition to every major law enforcement organization. As we're seeing with the results, the majority of the voting populus of the state shares those sentiments (myself among them).
Aside from any moral argument that can be made, Nevada simply cannot afford as a state to pass this measure. There is already a major fight going on between the federal government and the state over the Yucca Mountain Project (The storage of nuclear waste in Nevada). Nevada has spent hundreds of millions of dollars fighting the inevitable.
The promised federal lawsuit from the Department of Justice over the validity of the amendment to the Nevada Constitution regarding marijuana is simply more than the state can currently handle.
The people behind the ballot measure are for the most part lobbists from other states who were able to gather enough signatures on petitions to get this on the ballot. The people of Nevada simply do not support it en masse.
Gee, even for /. the S/N ratios on this topic ...WTF??? Informed answers only, please
seem to be hitting new lows.. so here's a question
for the real geeks out there... all the reports
on this issue discuss vague "computer problems"..
does anyone have more specifics? Hardware,
software, database, MS, email, Netscape,
HD crash,
Don't ask me, I was also working or in class all day, so I voted by mail last week.
But I tend to be suspicious of any attempt to keep people from voting on a technicality.
Twenties Retirement
--well, first time for me today. I live in georgia, got to "enjoy" our closed source no way to verify it anymore computerised voting machine. We had paper ballots before, relatively easy to count with any old random pairs of eyeballs and really never a problem before.
After I finished voting I asked ror A - a paper receipt with my recoded vote, and B a copy of the source code used on the computer for outside audit to see that it wasn't trojaned or set up to manipulate the votes in anyway. No receipt available. Poor poll official in this small county was flabbergasted. Called folks, eventually got shuffled to some guy at the computer company. He wouldn't give me a copy of the code because it was propietary, well, that's the point sez I no way to verify it. If there's a dispute how do the people at the polls recount it-run the flash card through the same maybe compromised machine? And if the flash card itself is changed already? All they need to pull off the scam is get the total number of votes cast to match the numbers hand entered at the head of the line, the RESULTS are un-verifiable. This is a duh really, it's just totaly bogus.
The poll official really didn't get it, I honestly don't think they understood what the whole point was, see it's the magic infalliable computer that no government or other party would ever manipulate, no, that's just not possible, and the corporate dude I talked to on the phone was kinda sorta smarmy and was indignant, so no source code. He KNEW what I was saying but was play acting dumb. ButI made sure at least I protested for the record.
Earlier on drudge before I went and voted he had a headline of big problems in georgia with the machines already, casting and changing votes from one party to the other, etc-what I think a lot of hipper people expected to happen- but now I can't find it cruising some other news sites, it poofed from drudge as near as I can see.
Nevada uses a touch screen interface in which you *touch* the box next to the name of the canidate that you want, and the X magically appears! A card with a magnetic strip is activated with one swipe after you have shown your ID and have been verified eligible to vote. You go and stick that in the machine to get started.
This system has several benefits over the analog system, in that it eliminates multiple votes for the same office, it allows you to *change* your vote if you've pressed the wrong box, and it allows you to *verify* that you have voted for the right canidate!
Aside from those benefits, it's much cooler than pen and paper, and makes it far easier to tally the vote.
Take a look at this for a quick introduction to CNN's methods: How does CNN make election projections?.
Jouster
And the best one of the night, Bob Ehrlich beats the crap out of Kathleen Kennedy and becomes Maryland's first Republican governor in almost 40 years.
And, even though I voted absentee, I've heard pretty much the same things about how easy the system was to use. Basically you're just given a credit-card size "smart card", insert it into touch-screen machine, make your selections, and return the smart card to the elections officials. In the end, things seem to have worked out pretty well.
You have a lovely sense of taste. So you think, what, that Senator Wellstone and two members of his family dies because he was a "socialist"? You dare to class him with Hitler? I suppose you think his death was divine justice?
"Welfare recipients" do NOT receive EIC -- it's call the Earned Income Credit for a reason.
Clearly you have no dignity.
ok i'll bite. I voted today in georgia, got to use the ol' electronic voting system and all. Basic touch screen system. What was interesting was the Amount of ppl voting. I overheard the pollworking talking about it, said that in our district there are 1999 ppl registered to vote, and that (this was at about 6:15, polls close at 7), over 1400 ppl had already voted, i believe. Very high turnout, and the line showed. we had 10 voting machines, it took about half an hour or a bit more to vote. But the voting place was a middle school gym, and there was prolly enough room for several hundred ppl to vote. And as long as you're In The Door by 7 pm, you get to vote, even if it takes half an hour of standing in line.
So lets see, polls open from 7am - 7pm, just have to get in there before 7pm to vote, facility could support(as in stick in line) prolly 10x amount of ppl that were ever in line at one point. If we can get it right in georgia, ANYONE can. 50th in the US in grade school education scores, iirc.
Maybe all these "we need to extend hours" places need to get some more booths, or new management, cause I find it hard to see how anyone cant get to a poll between 7am - 7pm.
I went and voted earlier, and it went pretty smoothly. The machines were made by Diebold (go figure). However, I must say that I am not comfortable putting my vote in the hands of a completely unaccountable corporation.
However, much worse than that was what happened after I finished voting. The machine used a smart card, that was locked into the machine while I was voting. After I was done, it was ejected, and one of the nice volunteers took it from me -- by hand -- while another handed me an "I voted" sticker.
It appears that the smart card does nothing more than "enable" the voting machine, and the votes are stored in the machine until read out. The question is, I have no info on how that process works, so I have no idea if my vote is even being counted properly. Further, I don't think that the State is very forthcoming on all the gory details of the process, for fear of someone finding a weakness and exploiting it. So, again, no accountability.
While I do understand and appreciate the need to replace the tedious and often error-prone manual processes in our voting systems, I am still uncomfortable with trusting in methods and equipment which have ZERO accountability anywhere in the chain.
I predict the obvious here.. lots of lawsuits by angry losers contesting the election and the new processes utilitized in it.
Oh well.. such is the way of "progress".
-SS "Teach the ignorant, care for the dumb, and punish the stupid."
You know, we could always just keep all polling places open longer. Or move everything to Saturday. You know, so more people can actually get away from work to vote?
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
I voted for Lautenberg, yugi-oh, godzilla, mickey mouse, goku, and super mario cart.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
Open beta? How about any beta? They were still writing code this morning, and putting out patches this afternoon - the problem is that they were VERY VERY late delivering code - They were supposed to test back in June, but have only been testing since October
Total clusterfuck
For shame, michael. Many people in many, many countries (China? Cuba? Large swaths of Africa?) would die (and have done just so) for the right to have an election run in a manner remotely close to what we take for granted in the USA. For all the cries about the "rigged" presidential election in 2000, it was *nothing* compared to the military-style elections in other countries. Look at the way Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe, folks) has stayed in office for decades. Look at how other countries basically had to step in to ensure a fair election within this country a few years back. Call me a young, idealistic fool if you wish, but if you're gonna live here, you've got to believe in the system, man! Else perhaps you're better off moving to warmer climates...
Wrists killing you? Not in 2 weeks. Learn Dvorak.
why does Election day have to be so close to Christmas?
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
It was actually really cool and easy to use.
Most of those "little R's" you point to are for the COPA, which is a dead law already. Instead look at all the congresspeople from both parties that are pushing DMCA, P2P laws, Sonny Bono Mickey Mouse Protection Act, etc. COPA is the least of your worries. Of course your biggest worry is trying to see anything with your head shoved up your ass like that. It's no wonder you are talking to much shit.
Well before you go insulting someone else for being idiotic mabye you should know what kind of government we have. IT IS NOT A DEMOCRACY...IT IS A REPRESENTITAVE REPUBLIC... BIG DIFFERENCE
All employees must wash hands before using the bathroom. - The Mgmt.
Crack open the box with the said papers and tear some of them up or write new ones!
And in america, everyone wins!!!!!
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
How many times can the Democrats pull this crap?!
Both sides pull this shit. And I'm afraid this wont change till something make the public make elected officals accountable.
While there are certainly risks to be managed with electronic voting, there are definitely advantages too. Some polling places in San Francisco ran out of ballot forms in today's election, and people who couldn't wait around for more ballots to be delivered did not get to vote. At least with electronic voting you can't run out of ballots!
By the way, San Francisco recently switched from the old punch-card hanging-chad ballots to the optical scanner technology. It's so much easier to use, and apparently faster to count the ballots as well. Maybe someday we'll get the touch-screen voting they used in Alameda today.
Well, whatever CNN is using, it's got some serious bugs. I noticed serveral "picks" tonight where they chose the candidate with 25% of the vote as the projected winner!
I submitted this before the polls opened. It was rejected:
Today, many Americans will vote using computerized balloting systems for the first time. Voters from the Slashdot community should take notes and report back here about their experiences. This article in Salon talks about the problems we've seen before, and will probably see again today. Jason Kitcat, founder of Gnu.FREE, an open-source electronic voting system, says, "I've come to the realization that electronic voting of any type...is a terrible, terrible idea."
The latest Slashdot meme.
No big suprise here. CNN just predicted incumbent Gray Davis the winner of the California Gubenetorial election through statistical analysis of currently tallied votes.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Today I am sick that I am an American, and I weep for the other nations of the world that must tollerate the republican nightmare that is to come. The only consolation I can provide is that with any luck it will only last 2 years until the next election cycle.
here
My life in the land of the rising sun.
6. Democrats accuse Republicans of closing polls to keep the hard workin' man (who votes Democrat) out.
Oh right, like Democrats actually have jobs.
Some points:
The President submits a budget to congress (what exactly did you think Reagan was talking about when explaining his "trickle down economics" program? An Econ 101 paper he was writing?)
The President appoints the leaders of the departments of the executive branch (such as that Dept. of Defense, which accounts for 43% of federal spending)
The President gets to veto any law passed by Congress (like the ridiculous defense pork that the Republican congress kept trying to pass during the Clinton years -- despite the fact that our military is grossly over-prepared for any realistically plausible enemies)
Its interesting that the Republicans are the ones that spend money hand over fist (that little 43% number again) and then when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, grin and point at the Dems.
I posted an idea two years ago after the whole presidential debacle which people seemed to like. Fill out a simple voting scantron type of form (online, or at the polling place). Feed it into the scantron voting machines at the polling place. The voting machine prints out the actual ballot, as well as a copy for you to keep. You check the ballot to make sure it is correct. Drop it in the ballot box. That way you get instant electronic results, as well as paper ballots to check for programming errors, fraud, etc... It involves a few extra steps and a little more paper, but not much more than we use right now, and that way, hard proof of the ballots exists to mitigate electronic tampering.
World Trade Center - 1993
US Embassey Bombing - 1998
USS Cole - 2000
See the pattern?
In case anyone likes to follow the results this late at night.. it appears that the GOP is now in the majority of the House and Senate. And CNN provides overall statistics for the exact numbers between the two major parties.
I also find it interesting that as of right now (3:11am est), MSNBC isn't ready to assume that the GOP has control of the Senate and the House. But everyone knows CNN leans towards the right anyways.
-=FZX
...-.-
Who the fuck moderated up this flaimbait? I have absolutely no confidence in these extreme right-wing Republicans who just won their rigged election. This is opposed to the virtually no confidence I have in the conservative Democrats who keep being pushovers to the Republicans.
To get back to software issues, some of the stations had a fixed display format that could only handle two candidates (whether the numbers were correct or not), while others were more flexible (which they also needed for things like city council races, which here in California are usually Vote-for-N-of-M non-partisan.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
From poll taxes to roadblocks in Florida, thwarting the democractic process is extremely damaging to society in the long run.
No.
Wrong.
What's damaging to society in the long run is cynical losing candidates and their backers defaming the process with irresponsible and unfounded allegations. If you want people to take elections seriously, establish rules and go by them. Don't play games after the fact. Don't expend thousands of words explaining why the whole thing was a fraud.
We'll have to get past the stage where electronic voting is merely emulating a process developed around the constraints of managing physical artifacts. For example, it could be used to get feedback about what parts of a bill or proposal people like or dislike. You even have the potential to find out why. Since the computer is doing the counting, this is no longer unfeasible.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
http://www.tse.gov.br/eleicoes/eleicoes2002/
The results were known within hours. The code is digitally signed, and the parties were allowed to check the source code. There is no wires, the device generates a diskette that is encrypted and signed before being sent to TSE. Some cities was experimenting a printer attached to extra security.
Diebold voting terminals
Brazil's vote - fast but fiddly
If you can read this, thank an english teacher.
This whole electronic thing was supposed to end the "chad" problem which was never a problem in the first place. IOW we were fixing a problem that didn't exist. I bet the same people who wanted to change to electronic will now scream to go back.
We need to accept that a) some people are too stupid to vote and b) the problem for the loser is the election results, not the methods.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
For example, why is it a federal crime to use a hand gun near a school,
because it's NOT! This law was overturned on exactly the 10th Amendment argument you are making. Sadly there are still lots of laws that completely ignore the concept of federalism but at least the Supremes are *starting* apply it here and there.
From that point of view last night's election is good news. With control of the senate GWB will likely get to appoint much more conservative judges than he would otherwise - judges who are strict constructionists and much more likely to uphold the 10th ammendment in all it's chaotic decentralized glory. States will be much more free to follow their own course - more libertarian in AZ, more theocratic in GA, maybe even more progressive in VT.
Did you know that the manufacturer of a popular brand of voting computers is owned by a man convicted twice of vote fraud?
Check it out at VoteScam.
The Colliers also address the issue of "computer malfunction" within the Voter News Service...
VNS management was blowing sunshine
Who is Sunshine?
And he get's "insightful" and you get nothing.
I'd also like to point out that some places, like here in Georgia, your employer is REQUIRED to give you two hours to vote - although they may select the two hours.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
I guess the Democrats have some pretty hard numbers that show a vast majority of people who intend to vote after the polls close are democrats (go figure)
It's not that late voters trend Democratic but that they are only keeping Democratic strongholds open. So Democratic party officials complain about Democratic officials running the election to a Democratic judge to keep a Democratic stronghold open longer so that more Democrats can vote. At no point in the process are Republicans involved in this little drama.
For all those saying "well there really are problems, people are waiting in line" that is often true, they have to have *some* excuse after all (a cynic would wonder if the "problems" aren't done purposefully just for that prupose). In any event, the standard ruling of the Democratic judge is to keep the polls open for another 1-1/2 to 2 hours NOT to let the people in already in line vote. As it is the party usually use these "problems" as an occasion for an aggresive last minute get-out-the-vote drive with the added urgency that "they" (the Democratic!!! officals responsible for the SNAFU?) are trying to "steal the election - don't let them!" In Arkansas this year they almost immediately rushed out a (pre?)recorded message alerting Democratic voters of this attempt by "them" (Democrats!) to suppress the minority vote.
You'd think the republicans would have enough brain cells to get the democrats to agree (or at least give them certified, return receipt notice) as to the time the polls are going to close.
Well of course they DID it's just that the Democrats will always look for that little advantage. The Republicans do as well of course, there are all sorts of dirty tricks the parties pull on each other. But screwing with the actual mechanisms of the election is beyond the pale IMHO. The polls should close on time - if there is a line at the time of the closing the law should let those *already* in line vote but not allow anyone new to get in line (I don't know but I'm willing to bet that is exactly what the law DOES say) These cheap little lawsuit tricks before partisan judges cheapens and undermines the whole process. The rank-and-file Dems believe their disengenious leaders that the Republicans attempted to rig the election and the Republicans feel the same of the Dems - all for the sake of a few hundred votes.
I'm sure the vast majority of slashdotters are libertarian, of course. right? In Oregon, the libertarian did very well for guberner.
Congress's ability to make laws the regulate personal behaviour and practices entirely within a state ALL stem from the constitution's allowance for the feds to regulate inter-state commerce. And this was originally put in the constitution as a sweetener to join the union (i.e joint a free trade zone! much like reason everyone joined the EU or why nafta happened. scary).
Excerpted from www.fff.org: Enter Roscoe Filburn, an Ohio dairy and poultry farmer, who raised a small quantity of winter wheat -- some to sell, some to feed his livestock, and some to consume. In 1940, under authority of the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the central government told Mr. Filburn that for the next year he would be limited to planting 11 acres of wheat and harvesting 20 bushels per acre. He harvested 12 acres over his allotment for consumption on his own property. When the government fined him, Mr. Filburn refused to pay. Wickard v. Filburn got to the Supreme Court, and in 1942, the justices unanimously ruled against the farmer. The government claimed that if Mr. Filburn grew wheat for his own use, he would not be buying it -- and that affected interstate commerce. It also argued that if the price of wheat rose, which is what the government wanted, Mr. Filburn might be tempted to sell his surplus wheat in the interstate market, thwarting the government's objective. The Supreme Court bought it. The Court's opinion must be quoted to be believed: [The wheat] supplies a need of the man who grew it which would otherwise be reflected by purchases in the open market. Home-grown wheat in this sense competes with wheat in commerce. As Epstein commented, "Could anyone say with a straight face that the consumption of home-grown wheat is 'commerce among the several states?'" For good measure, the Court justified the obvious sacrifice of Mr. Filburn's freedom and interests to the unnamed farmers being protected: It is of the essence of regulation that it lays a restraining hand on the self-interest of the regulated and that advantages from the regulation commonly fall to others. After Wickard , everything is mere detail. The entire edifice of civil rights legislation stands on the commerce power. Under this maximum commerce power, the government has been free to regulate nearly everything, including a restaurant owner's bigotry. The Court has held that if Congress sees a connection to interstate commerce, it is not its role to second guess.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I reserve my right to complain (whether I voted or not) because the plurality voting system has caused the Democratic party to fracture into the Libertarian and Green parties, as well as others. The only reason the GOP did so well is because we, as voters, don't get to vote for the person we want without "wasting" it. How can I vote Green, without automatically helping the GOP (my last choice), since I didn't vote for the Democratic candidate? My sister just sent me an email: "I can't believe you are wasting your vote with that Libertarian candidate. I'm not even voting." The system is flawed, and I can't help but wonder if it is maintained precisely for its most powerful effect: voter apathy.
Next you're going to tell me Wallace & Gromit aren't real either?
RMN
~~~
It was voting day? Damn! I wonder who the new prime minister is. Oh.... wait...
Damned Americanocentric Slashdot
Before you got to vote on that touch-screen gizmo, did you have to accept the EULA first? :^)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
You sir, have created a fabulous troll, for it transcends the typical crapflood and has reached the realm of the sublime. You have my deepest congratulations.
I voted. But I am in no way fooling myself into thinking that just my vote counts. As you say your vote counts when it is part of a group. This is my segue into political groups and I will extend that into PACs.
Politicians want to get elected. Be it becuase they want to change the world, they didn't get enough attention as kids and so they need this public display, or maybe they just don't want to pay for parking tickets. They need votes.
Groups need things done for them. They need money budgeted for their cause. So they ask/petition the poltician as representatives from a vocal/voting group.
For example, Senator Monihan from NY recently allocated upwards of $20,000 to erect a statute commemrating the Irish potato famine. That part of NY has a a large Irish population. He'll be getting their votes.
I think this is a simple enough example to bring it out to Political Action committees and lobbyists. Industry throws its wieght around by contributing funds and threatening jobs. Lobbyists can contribute funds and threaten the politicians job (no re-election).
It works in the large.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Here is a fun little parody on the entire "electronic ballot" situation. Probably funnier if it weren't so close to the truth !-)
--- have you healed your church website?
I wish I were as optimistic as you are about the future of federalism....
I'm cautiously optimistic. It depends on three factors 1) Who retires on the court (effected by how long the Reps control the process) and 2) How willing Republicans are to put forward conservative/strict-constructionists.
As to who will retire - I think Rehnquist will definitely get out while the getting is good. Even if Republicans go all out in pushing a conservative on the court I doubt you will get much better from a federalist point-of-view. BUT, O'Conner may also get out while the going is good. Considering that she is usually the one who decides which way the usual 5-4 split goes this is a big gain for federalism IF the Republicans stick by their guns in sending them to the court. All of this is really offset if Stevens retires - even in the most ideologically committed Republicans will probably cave (to a degree) to the idea of preserving some sort of balance on the court so I would expect that they would put of a more "moderate" justice - probably someone like an O'Conner, still a big win for federalism.
Of course Stevens & other liberals will probably try to wait out Bush, hoping they can retire with a Democratic Prez and hopefully Senate. This could happen but it is important to remember that we are in (or just coming out of) a recession NOW and what comes after a recession? Just in time for W's re-election campaign we will probably be enjoying the inevitable up-turn after a recession just like Reagan's landslide in '84. Republicans in the Senate will finally catch a break with only 15 seats to defend v. the Dems 19, A decent number of Dems are in strong Republican states - Daschle in ND, Edwards in NC, Hollings in SC, Miller in GA, Reid in NV, and Dorgan in ND. Daschle, Miller and maybe Edwards win easy if they run BUT Daschle & Edwards might try for Prez and Miller could retire or even switch parties.
Finally it comes down to how far are Reps willing to exploit their oppurtunity to shift the ideology of the court. I think they are MUCH more willing than they had been in the past. The Dems have politicized the court far more than was common in the past (when Republican appointees were as likely to end up liberal as conservative) and have managed to alienate even the more moderate Republicans that they could have persuaded previously. There is a strong feeling among Reps that "turnabout is fair play" and if Democrats are willing to blatantly apply a "litmus test" (previously a taboo) on an issue that is ultimately a federalist issue (almost any federalist will be anti-Roe for federalist if not pro-life reasons). Republicans will return the favor (albeit more subtly) - I think they are FAR more willing to fight for conservative nominees than they have ever been before.
The U.S. Constitution.
u ti on.overview.html
The United States is a constitutional republic. We vote for people who do the voting for us.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constit
Here's an interesting research project for you: go back to the 1980s and read the Washington Post's articles each year for when Reagan submitted his budget to Congress. It was declared DOA each year before the ink had even dried.
Of course, that kind of blows your little thesis there right out of the water, so feel free to continue with your head in the sand.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
Hemp.
Rope manufacturers cause marijuana to be made illegal.
--that's basically what I asked for, the paper receipt of my vote, then the operating system source code. I was trying to get the official poll officer to understand that now there is zero way to do a recount that is verifiable, she kept insiting it was an accurate count guaranteed and all they had to do was run the machine again to get the couint. We went round and round on this for at least 15 minutes until I became convinced she had zero idea of what I was talking about even though she "knew all about computers uses them everyday". I said "we used to have paper ballots thatcould be counted by anyone", she replies "but we had a machine read them before", I say "yes, but in a dispute human beings could count the ballots easily", she said "it doesn't matter this new computer doesn't make any mistakes because theysayso" and etc, etc, and back and forth, MAN it was frustrating.
Hopefully as suggested they'll be some big lawsuit someplace with a disputed count and this whole no verification machine voting scam gets thrown out as a really bad idea. It's really a power grabbing major scam, I honestly believe this now.
But, I also think this is the long range "plan" to just completely have the ability to big brother rig elections, and this closed source computer nonsense makes it ridiculously easy to pull off for any domestic faction high level political badguys who are already "in control" of the exsisiting balloting process and want "total" control.
I also think that voter news service alleged computer exit polling "glitches" are a total lie, I bet they showed a number of cases across the nation where exit polls were so completely and obvious and overwhelmingly different from the "official" ballot counting that they quick pulled the plug on it to help coverup the rigging efforts. Basically a poll consists of binary yes and no answers when the poll is how you voted, it just ain't that hard a process to do. didja vote for dude A or B? Didjaa vote yes or no on referendum A or B? then it's just tallying those numbers and comparing them to a 100% total, that's it, you get the odds. And they are telling us it was "inaccurate". Triple phooie, they are forked tongued on this most likely. You could do this with a 10 buck calculator and analog phone lines. they've been doing exit polling forever, it ain't rocket science nor does it even remotely require massive computing power to get close enough to reality to be newsworthy. Somehow, this election has been massively rigged across the nation. Now this is a guess on my part, I have no proof per se and am speculating now, but I bet it's an accurate guess.
The ramifications are obvious.
I'd like to expand on this idea of comparing elections to horse races. In the 2000 presidential elections, Nader, Buchanan, and Browne didn't stand a chance at winning due to this very mentality. When I voted, I realized that my preferred candidate was not going to receive enough votes to win simply because no one believed he would get enough votes to win. As a result, some extreme left and right voters moved toward the center to ensure that their vote would count toward someone who at least had a better chance of winning. But there are two sides to this issue. Anyone remember the phrase, "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush"? One could easily say the converse, "A vote for Buchanan is a vote for Gore." This is all based on the fact that voters are not allowed to choose a preferred order of candidates. If a voter stands on either the far right or far left, they naturally would prefer those candidates on his/her side before all others. However, since only one vote is allowed, a vote to the extreme left or right actually removes a potential vote for the candidate preferred as second choice. Thus the chances are increased that the candidate just on the other side of center from his/her position will win.
My point in all of this is to bring up debate in a weighted voting system. Consider a five candidate election: A,B,X,Y,Z. With this system, I can say I want candidate X first, Z second, B third, Y fourth, and A last. Then the system assigns values to each of the votes. X receives 5, Z receive 4, and so on until the final one receives 1. Now a person can vote extreme left or right (or just plain different) and still ensure that their second choice candidate will be aided more than their third or fourth choice. This also nullifies the horse race mentality because you can now vote for more than one, not just who you think is going to win. I realize that there are major logistical issues in deploying an entirely new voting system, but I'm just trying to pinpoint the most fair and accurate method.
Now, if I have missed something here, please let me know. If there is a higher wisdom to the single vote system or if I am totally wrong with weighted voting then I am all ears. I would appreciate any insight that any of you have into this matter.
this is OK for you. Are you sure you are in the right country?
You're beating the same drum, but once again, there are other opportunites to vote, and I find it hard to believe that there are that many people who are working from 7(or whenever the poles open) to 8pm(or whenever they close). It's just a situation where some people have 'more important' things to do(watch friends, post to
Clearly you don't have children in day care or school. I can clearly think any number of situations that are not that far fetched where that's case. My own mother raised 4 kids and worked two jobs. Voting for her cost money and time she didn't have. I find this idea that rule of law is some sort of absolute standard somewhat farcical. Rule of law is often read depending on the political biases of the judges. The Florida Supreme Court and the US Supreme Court both proved that in 2000. I loved the US Supreme Court's use of equal proctection under the Constitution for not counting votes. The law doesn't live in a vacuum and the people that enforce it often have their own biases...
Thalasar
Is someone alowed to be as retarted as to not garunte the 3,100 plus people that got their votes denied cause some idiot didn't print enough ballets that they'll be allowed to vote at least on city mesures, such as evotes are ok, people are allowed to register the same day they vote etc.
Anyone know when we'll get internet voting?
I get to go vote in a area that after 5 I have to run through to avoid gang violence. None of the city or state officials see a problem with activly placing my life on the line so I can vote.
What kind of shit is that?
Nufking retards and I bet you ho's are proud of that shit to.
Yeah, yeah. ..
Get this : the republicans will get to select new Supreme Court judges.
Now be scared
... and of course, euro-slashbots, who think there is any need for electronic voting in the US, or in fact think there is a technical problem at all.
There isn't. US jurisdictions use and have used a variety of methods, but most commonly a punch card counted by machine, and there is nothing wrong with this method. It works fine.
The supposed "problem" was an attempt to overturn the results of an election. The media and the lawerly clas were fully on board, but it didn't work. It almost worked, though, so they're going to keep trying.
Trouble is, euro-slashbots only get to see what is in the media. So they (because it is in their interest) sneer and agree with the talking heads. Only the media and a tiny hardcore group of Democrats actually nurse the belief that election "irregularities" benefited Bush. I think we all know who the dead people and the non-citizens voted for, and it sure as hell wasn't Bush.
5. (This part will sound obvious to most people familiar with democracy, but americans may find it surprising) The candidate with the most votes wins.
Har har. And in countries of any size, where a true federation makes sense, the candidate with the most votes in a region wins an elector. Which is what happened. Bush won the most votes in Florida, no matter how many times Democrat canvassing boards got all metaphysical and postmodern with scrutinizing ballots. By the way, those are your "people" who would be counting the pen marks in the boxes. Yeah, that would be better, I guess, if you are the cheater.
I can't remember the last time I voted on Election Day...was probably '94 or '96. I've taken advantage of early voting ever since it was introduced...polling places are set up in malls and other public places ~2 weeks before an election.
If early voting isn't available, I suppose there's absentee voting (which is admittedly somewhat more vulnerable to manipulation, as when Gore tried to get the military absentee vote thrown out in Florida in 2000)...either way, I don't see that there's any excuse to complain about not being able to vote. I'm one of the worst procrastinators you'll ever run across (never do today what you can put off until tomorrow :-) ), but that doesn't stop me from getting my vote turned in ASAP.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
So thwarting democracy is a good thing? Sorry but I fail to see how poll taxes, Jim Crow laws etc are good things. I think you have a good point about process. Having respect for the process is important as well - BOTH are required in a functioning democracy. In CA where I live, direct ballot measures make it more of a democracy than the country as a whole. That's why we pass wacky things like medical mj
Thalasar
Thank-you to all you slashdoters who read my messages over the past few weeks and voted republican. We didn't take the governor seat hear in Michigan, but virtually every other state office went republican and it looks like republicans will control both houses and the legislative branch of our government for the next 2 years. {woo-hoo!!!} Thank-you so much for all of your support. As of this writing there are 51 seats that are republican in the Senate but we could have 53 by the time everything is said and done.
Thank-you all!
You don't trust any new ones.
You don't trust the Electoral College. (No, you don't understand OR trust the Electoral College.)
And you don't have any ideas about a better way of doing things.
But you ARE willing to critique the system? My, how sporting of you. Here's the skinny, Erik, politics is work. It's the business of getting things done that are too big for any one person to do, the job of making the least-objectionable or least-hazardous decision about things that will affect us all. That job will continue to be done, despite your boycott, because it has to be.
Go ahead and complain, if that's all you've got. Just don't expect any sympathy from those willing to make the effort.
Hmmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Here in Jackson county, they use paper ballots. You fill in a circle with a pencil. Then turn in your ballot. Someone then marks your circle with a "clarifier," a stamp and they run it thru a machine to count them.
See any holes for fraud here?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
For senator, I had a choice between Warner(R) and two independants who I never heard of.
For representative, I had a choice between Goodlatte(R) and nobody. Even the tinfoil brigade stayed home.
We had two consitutional amendments, both so bland that the aforementioned tinfoil hatwearers were the only opposition.
Ok, I did get to vote on two bond measures, one of which was actually important.
Whoohoo! Democracy in action.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
How could I not vote Libertarian for CA HR-12?
The south was right about states rights. Unfortunately, they used slavery as the their reason for states rights and there was no way that was going to fly.
If Election Day was a Federal Holiday, more people could vote. Also with a name like Election Day, perhaps some of the apathetic non-voters might get with the program.
It must be nice to have free elections. I like the idea of voting on a non-workday, but in the American tradition of "I want more", Election Day should be a paid Federal Holiday.
What I really want to know is: who is selling these electronic voting machines and how can I get a share of the profit?
RMN
~~~
D. Heil: 'Message to America: Don't come crying...'
Date: Wednesday, November 06 @ 09:37:58 EST
Topic: 2002 Elections
By D. Heil
Last night's election was a clear victory for Republicans as they took control of the Senate and increased their lead in the House of Representatives. It is clear that the President's popularity polls were not wrong or misleading as we had hoped. It is also clear that Democratic Party leaders lack enough courage or intelligence to deserve the vote of the electorate. Rather than blame the mean-spirited and united, far right Republicans or criticize the spineless Democrats, it is more instructive to acknowledge that we are still a democracy and that Americans DID choose to give this President and his Party control of all three branches of government - legislative, executive and judicial.
So then, we must ask: what did tonight's election tell us about Americans?
1. The election results tell us that too few voters exercise their rights. With less than four in ten showing up to cast their ballots, election results reflect not the overall will of Americans, but how creative the two parties were in energizing their base of voters. The Republican base contains two basic constituencies: on one hand they rely on rural, gun totin', Iraq ass kickin', bible belters who would ignore the disaster this country is in just to protect the unborn fetuses and every citizen's right to own assault weapons. This constituency dominates rural America, or predominantly southern states, central American states and the wild west. Geographically and politically, that covers a lot of ground in this nation. The other major Republican constituency represents all those folks who place self over community as evidenced by their desire for wealth and acceptance of corporate greed. This group rationalizes their greed by arguing against government regulation - either environmental or financial. They argue the world will be a better place once its citizens have tasted the fruits of capitalism, period.
The Republicans obviously did a better job of "marketing" to their constituencies than the Democrats did by sheepishly handing George Bush a free ride on every issue from Iraq to taxes and the environment. Democratic supporters apparently stayed home last evening.
2. American voters either want George Bush to replace at least three retiring Supreme Court justices with far right, neo-Nazis, or they're too naive to understand that very real danger that comes with no Democrats to challenge the Republican majority. Sandra Day O'Connor postponed her announced retirement upon the switch of Jim Jeffords, since the new Democratic controlled Senate would be sure to nix Bush's nomination of an ultra conservative justice. There are certainly at least two other, aging conservative justices prepared to retire during the Bush term. With last night's Republican trouncing, it is hard to argue Americans didn't see or didn't want such judicial appointments.
3. American voters apparently are pleased with the state of our nation's War on Terrorism. Never mind our swiss cheese borders or entirely exposed chemical and nuclear power plants. Forget that our nation's ports only inspect - sort of - less than 1 percent of cargo containers coming into major cities like Baltimore/Washington, New York, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. Americans apparently don't care that this President can't even exercise his terrorism mandate to pass a Homeland Security bill or hire a half qualified person to lead the Homeland Security effort. Truth is, this administration hasn't done jack to advance our Homeland Security, but Americans are too attention deficit to notice or care.
4. Americans apparently are happy to have corporations pollute our air and drinking water in the name of higher stock prices. They've either slept through the news reports that this President has emasculated the EPA and told the rest of the world, screw Kyoto, or they simply don't care about Mother Nature. There's never been a more environmentally destructive President than George "W" but that's ok, as long as we kick Saddam's booty.
5. Apparently Americans are happy to have a President whose only efforts to rebuild the economy have been a poorly constructed, bankrupting tax cut and the Waco Economic Summit where Presidential "arss kissers" met to tell Mr. Bush what a fine job he's doing. Oh yeah, and the President DID use his bully pulpit to instruct Americans to ignore unemployment figures and the worst bull market since the Great Depression. "It's a good time to buy stocks," he says. "Trust me on this, citizens."
6. Americans obviously enjoy the level of corporate campaign donations streaming into political parties. They ignore how this President fought campaign finance reform, and reluctantly signed it into law in the middle of the night, and then instructed the Republican dominated Federal Election Committee to blast holes right into the new law. To be fair, Democrats didn't complain too loudly either.
7. Our nation's citizens apparently don't mind corporate corruption either. Enron? Worldcom? They are sooooo passe'. Harvey Pitt? The President recommended him and sabotaged Mr. Biggs as the new Accounting Board Chairman who actually might do a decent job on reigning in corporate cronyism. That's ok. Harken? Halliburton? Those are simply "alleged" crimes, not real ones. Any President who bombed the hell out of Afghanistan, thereby forcing Al Qaeda to simply change addresses, is "ok" with me.
8. Americans support the use of Air Force One to run a Presidential campaign two years early. Americans like the fact our President only works half the time - at best - and seems to prefer a day complete with exercise, a photo op, a few choice stump speeches in front of "friendly" audiences and month long vacations on the ranch. All this time off is acceptable, even required for a President with so many dangerous issues on his plate: Iraq, North Korea, the Economy, Terrorism, rising unemployment, worldwide hatred of our country by allies and enemies alike? Poor Mr. President needs lots of rest.
9. Who needs the rest of the world? Who cares that less than twenty months ago, most of our allies and enemies at least respected our President and now they all hate us? Bomb Iraq now, dammit! Who cares what happens after we stick Saddam's head on a pole? Millions of murdered innocents during the civil war most experts predict will result after Saddam's departure? That's called "collateral damage." Oh yeah, and we've done such a fine job of building a new democracy in Afghanistan which is a cake walk compared to Iraq. Americans don't need our President or Republican leaders to tell us what they'd do in the aftermath of an attack on Iraq. Take Mr. Rumsfeld's word for it - we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
10. Americans couldn't understand or accept that Bill Clinton would dare lie about an extramarital affair, but they respect a lying President who would lie on issues of healthcare, world war, and his own business dealings. They prefer a President who will ignore those ninnies in the CIA when they advise us against a war with Saddam and that our nation is entirely unprepared for further acts of mass terror within our borders.
The list of things we learned, last night, about Americans could go on, but I think you get the point. Don't believe the pundits who say this election wasn't about national issues or the Bush Presidency. It is clear this election was ALL about George Bush and what a great President he's been. If, like me, you don't think George "W" is anything but the worst President this nation has ever had in office, you, my friend, are in the minority.
If you were eligible to vote yesterday, but didn't, don't you come crying to those of us who fought like hell to counter balance the Republican juggernaut. If you actually support George W. Bush and the corporate cronies who make up the Republican party, don't come crying when your sons and daughters die in Iraq - which can only be considered as the next Vietnam. If you voted for a Republican senator on November 5th, don't come crying when the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, and your daughter has to secretly contract with a witch doctor for her abortion. If your son or daughter is accused of breaking the law, but doesn't get to talk with an attorney, or you're not happy your phone lines have been tapped, don't come crying to me. If arsenic in your drinking water leads to your pancreatic cancer, live with it or don't. If you don't like strip mines in your national parks, don't expect violins or kleenex.
You knew what you were getting when you voted on November 5th. Or you should have known. Ignorance is not a valid excuse. This is what America wants. When other people in other nations criticize Americans as self-centered and arrogant, they may not be talking about you or me. But they ARE talking about the majority of Americans. And I am beginning to think they're right. By the way, Mssrs. Daschle and Gephardt: resign. Your sit on your thumbs, butt kissing of the President predictably backfired. Apparently, a minority of Americans - but enough of them - decided that even a bad set of solutions is better than your disappearing act.
The point I was trying to make was that the law provides for people like you which cannot make it on election day(which is completely ok), so it's a little silly for people to say the Republicans are disenfranchising people when the people could just take a little time and perform their civic duty.
-Bucky
--no, I don't, but I think in this day and age and with this creeping fascism we are seeing that the potential for elaborate and extensive vote rigging is such that this particular source code SHOULD be open source, or better yet, just scrap it. Nations large and small around the world use paper ballots, they work, take no skills to count in a dispute, the local people involved can do it easily. yes I know there is abuse and fraud in the past. deal is now, they are 1/2 way to the entire nation being susceptible to easy abuse, and no one would know. No one but the abusers. This is a BIG DEAL to me. I like computers, but not at the polls, no thankew.
Our voting system here was not broken, it didn't need fixing. Punch outs with hanging chads we didn't have, before we had fill in the circle with a pencil paper ballots, they always worked. This new computer system, you, me, no one else outside the "company", and certainly not the poll officials onsite have ANY IDEA whatsoever if this software came pre trojaned or rigged, what the real count is, nothing. It's trust with NO VERIFY. they suckered this in with "look how convenient this is!". Well, ya, next step in "convenience"is just to skip any voting at all, just rubber stamp in the latest premier. No thanks, I smell a rat. There's zero way to KNOW what the count is besides what the government and a private corporation says it is. NONE.
Don't know about you but the preceding two entities I don't trust with the nations vote, not without local human eyeballs oversite.
You tell me, mega coincidence or not, georgia first state in the nation full computerised voting, gee whizz, first time they use the system in a big way, an almost total repub sweep in a mostly dem voting state, first time since reconstruction days. All kinza guys that looked like normal shoo ins seem to lose. Now ain't that speeshul... just another one of them coinkydinks like anytime there's a political angle plane crash the "blackboxes"don't seem to work, like senator wellstone's plane.
Uh huh, yep, sure, oh ya-a-a-a-a that's what really happened.
I'm not a D nor an R, so I got no dog in that fight, but the aberration is just too cute for me.
IMO, open source or no computerised voting, I'm one guy, that's my opinion, I used it and protested at my official polling site, the proper venue for me to do so. I called 'em on it, this vote is not secure, it's my civic duty to point it out, it's really that simple. The governance of my state and the nation is more important than some ten buck thing I buy, and my vote is worth it to me.
Hey nice troll, ya even got a mod point. Haha moderators are the ones smoking the crackpipes though.
Go here for a good series pro and con on marijuana. It's a good read.
/
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana
Congratulations, Americans! You have just voted to finish off the planet by starting WWIII, this time in the Middle East! How could you be so stupid as to give Baby Bush the biggest blank cheque he's had since 9/11? Are you fucking NUTS? Do you realize just how much of your so-called Freedom you lose every time this nutcase opens his mouth? This war is going to be started for either or noth of two reasons: Baby Bush fulfilling his Daddy's wet dreams, and the usual oil fired reasons. Wake up and smell the coffee, you fucking idiot Yanks! This ar on Terrorism is not a license to take out your bugbear-du-jour! It's part and parcel of why the REST OF THE WORLD HATES YOU, and all your terrorism woes are suddenly going to get much worse once you involve yourselves in another Vietnam! If there ever was a time for the world to rise up and fight off a tyrant, it is now, the USA vs. everybody else! There's whole other world out there...your planet does not stop at your own borders, and...believe it or not...most people DO NOT WANT ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE GREEDY OVERSTUFFED, WASTEFUL American way of life!
Thank you. Extremely informative and authoritative source of info.
But looking exclusively to the aggregate HDI is oversimplifying the matter somewhat. What is most interesting about the Human Development Report is the sheer number of different indicators it considers. On some of these indicators the Sweden outranks the US on others it is the other way around. This should but heed to the notion that one country is simply better than another, they perform differently on different measures.
That being said, on the issue that the original poster raised, the position of the poorest within the country, the U.S. performed particularly poorly. In 2000 Sweden ranked in top place on the HPI-2 indicator (basically an inverse poverty indicator of developed countries), while the U.S. was down in 17th (last) place.
Here are the rankings of HDI (aggregate) as against the HPI-2 (the first number represents an aggregate (and thus slight arbitrary) ranking of standard of living, the second number indicates the countries with the better record on alleviating poverty):
But oddly enough, only in the Mission, the Tenderloin, and Hunter's Point. All strongly democratic precincts.
Last election, a dozen empty ballot boxes turned up in the bay afterwards. The elections department claimed they had taken them to the docks for cleaning(?!?) and they had washed away in a storm.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
But if that commerce is an illegal activity under a federal law for which the federal government does have power to legislate (as say where it is a signatory to an international drug prohibition convention), then it can regulate that commerce as an activity illegal under federal law.
Are you claiming that international treaties give the Congress the right to ignore the grants of rights to the states and to the people? For instance, if a treaty directly contradicted the First Amendment, would the treaty be valid? And is the Tenth Amendment any less a part of the Constitution than the First?
Will I retire or break 10K?
--I did that, as well. I lobbied against this madness. The federal government has usurped states rights, there's the obvious and on going carrot and the stick they use. Steal money and power at gunpoint, dole it back 50 cents on the dollar or less. That's the main problem.
As to the source code, again, another valid point, that's why I much prefer paper ballots.
One time in a much larger precinct where I used to live I got to be first in line in the morning, I was therefore the automatic ballot box inspector. You open the box, look in, verify it is EMPTY and untampered with. This is not possible now with the computerized voting, is it?
The Republic has been spiralling down, this is the last step of the rubber stamped and most likely hacked elections and is IT. We now live in a technofuedal society. It is neither a lawful representative republic nor even a 'democracy" as most people call it in slang fashion. It's a two class society of masters and serfs, the masters are finalizing their control via use of their badged and beribboned mercenaries and their co-opted bureaucrats.
The sheeps will pick up on it gradually as more "courtesy checkpoints" appear, when they are required to produce their internal passport, when they are required to be injected first with chemicals then active biologicals then microchips. It's coming. You are going to see a complete merge of "civilian" law enforcement and the military. You are going to see foreign mercenaries called "nato" troops used in domestic "law enforcement". You are going to see all the trappings of a nation like china, their poster boy model society the globalists want to emulate around the planet. You are going to see more and more the utter destruction of the private sector middle class as the US is "second worlded" with insane immigration policies and using tax breaks to encourage outsourcing of industry after industry. This bogus voting with computer will help make it happen, IMO.
I hold the criminal D and R's in the leadership levels along with traitorus international businessmen who fund them completely responsible for this fascism. Some are in on it, the rest are clueless and support via inertia and generation's long brainwashing.
Involved subject but those are my feelings based on a long period of time watching politics and social changes. In short, we've been hijacked, the stealth coup was successful. It's in the mopping up phase now.
I like technology,and so does bigbrother LOVE technology. Police startes need all the technology they can get, for population COMMAND and CONTROL. It's not waiting for it to happen, it's HERE now. Most people are looking to see when "martial law" is declared, when for all practical purposes it was many years ago now by the results we are seeing. It's this slow chipping away process the wags like to call the "boiling frog" principle, it works all too well it appears. there doesn't appear to be the number of frogs who can detect heat differences. Hopefully that might change soon, I don't know, this election proved to me that over 99.99% of the people honestly don't care, they'll just suck it up.
Aw shoot, I've forgotten now, was it animal house the movie? WHACK -thankyousir may I have another? WHACK thankyousir may I have another?
That's what's going on, IMO. You have to be pretty brainwashed to put up with that.
Al-Qaeda receives some funding from illegal drugs, but this is mostly from middle-eastern opium.
Marijuana (at least the one you see in the States) comes mainly from Mexico, grown by poor farmers that have no other choice but to grow pot for the Tijuana and Tamaulipas drug-overlords.
So if you smoke pot, you are supporting the drug cartels, who are mainly concerned in mantaining the current US status quo. They were certainly pissed at the 9/11 attacks, because sales went down and border patrols went up!
Also it has been decisively proved now that marijuanna induces schizophrenic like symptoms among a majority of users. Most often these present as a particularly violent form of schizophrenia.
Sorry, but could you back this up with a link to a respected research paper? (not funded by the US goverment)
No sig for the moment.
Stop reading Starship Troopers!
If you cant see that it was actually a cautionary tale and _not_ a serious political platform then you need to read something else
No sig for the moment.
It's simply unbelievable how much energy and creativity people have
invested into creating contradictory, bogus and stupid licenses...
--- Sven Rudolph about licences in debian/non-free.
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...