Slashdot Mirror
Taiwan Asks Microsoft To Open Windows Source
Andy Tai writes "According to this China Times article (in Chinese), the Republic of China government has asked Microsoft to open Windows source code. The official, Lin Jua-Cheng, in charge of the 'e-government' initiative, says many other countries have also sent similar requests to Microsoft. Lin explains that without Windows source code, the government cannot add custom firewall functionalities to Windows based systems in wide use, and that is very bad for the information security of Taiwan. Microsoft refused to publicly release the source in the past using reasons of copyright protection, but Lin emphasizes this request is reasonable since it is based on (government users') necessity." Read on for a bit more, too. (Can anyone suggest an online Chinese English translation engine that produces other than gibberish?)
Andy continues "Lin points out that GNU/Linux systems, because of their freeness and high security (due to the availability of the source code, which can be modified to add firewalls and other security measures), have become widely used in government computer systems (especially in militaries and intelligence agencies) of many nations and the Pentagon, the FAA, and the air force of the U.S. Lin says the government cannot rely on a single vendor, and to promote the alternatives, the government has set up a 'Free (libre) Software Steering Committee' directing government efforts. The two aims of the ROC government's current software policy is making Windows source code openly available and the development of Free (libre) Software in Taiwan."
Not only is it hard to put in their own firewalls it's hard to develop linux apps that can use the hidden Windows APIs and we all know how much that sucks ;)
Wasn't this posted a day or two ago?
, the government cannot add custom firewall functionalities to Windows based systems in wide use, and that is very bad for the information security of Taiwan.
Sure, because I need to look at the windows source to know that I need to enable HTTP to this server, SMTP to that server, etc etc.
M$ give them the source code and we get the spy planes back :)
... I think I'm going to have to say "fat chance". I don't believe that MS will reverse its stance on security-through-obscurity... not even at the request of a nation.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
See here for more discussion.
It isn't surprising to me that Microsoft won't open the source. I've even asked them a few times, and they just won't budge!
Heres why
I wish them luck, they probably would get a "special version" of Windows 95.....
first post!
<sig> I wish I had a </sig>
This has happened before--group X asks for Microsoft to open their source, MS says "No", and the world keeps turning. I was under the impression that far eastern countries were leaning more towards Linux anyway..?
I am highly dubious that the person quoted here is smart enough to write any kind of a firewall, much less a ruleset for linux or Windows. ... which is all secondary to the point i am going to make:
In W2k and later, the entire network stack is completely pluggable. You can insert any layer you want to that sits between NDIS and a protocol driver, and you can create other layers as required. I'd be very surprised if they couldn't do everything required with windows exactly as it sits today.
I think this is just making political noise, and not based on any shred of technical accuracy.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I guess the obvious answer would be to use something other that Windows. I hear this Finnish kid is working on something.
Open Sherlock 3 under Mac OS X 10.2.
Click once on the Translation channel in the Toolbar.
Copy and paste the Chinese text within the top half and make sure you have the "Chinese (Simplified) to English" filter selected.
Then click the Translate button.
If you ask me, this request is quite lame. Microsoft has created a product, and the government of China can use it if they so desire. If they need it to create a firewall-type software package for their machines, why not ask Microsoft to create that instead? Something just seems overly fishy here. Besides, an external firewall would most likely provide better control and better performance for all users.
If Microsoft actually goes along with this, will it mean that I'll be able to buy a CD-ROM of the Windows source code for $0.99 or whatever on the streets of China? Probably. Which makes me think that Microsoft isn't ever going to go along with this.
Maybe a long time from now all software will be open source and the world will be a better place but until that happens, MS has too much to lose and nothing to gain from this.
How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
Let them eat SH[ared Source]IT.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
I'd say something, but the mistake was just too obvious. Please. At least proofread questions like that last one, eh?
First off, the chief purpose of the firewalling in question is to prevent Chinese citizens from accessing pro democracy sites outside of China, as well as any news sites that could be critical of China's political and social systems. Something that Slashdot has told everyone numerous times is "bad".
Secondly, as Slasdot has told us numerous times as well, Microsoft's unwillingness to release their source code publically is "bad".
Therefore, isn't the fact that Microsoft's closed source policies stand in the way of China's attempts at fullscale net censorship, a good thing?
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
We could see cheap Taiwanese copies of Microsoft software on the black market fo... oh, wait. We can already?
We could investigate and fix bugs in... Wait, you mean Microsoft -really- intends to kill all the bugs in the code?
But we... Oh, I knew you were just joking about the bugs too. Really, I did.
I don't really want Windows to go open source. I -really- don't want it to go restricted source, because they'd use that as a weapon against Free Software like you wouldn't believe.
"The Samba team looked at the Windows XP source code and took components, putting them into the Samba tree."
"No we didn't."
"Yes you did, look here. See this contribution from X? He plead with us for immunity so we can bust your asses."
"But he works for Microsoft, according to..."
Behold, the power of plants.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
For those going on about the Chinese spy plane incident, rampant mainland Chinese software piracy, etc...
Taiwan is not China. Taiwan is a very urban, very modern nation which participates fairly in the world economy. Much of the technology used in America and throughout the world is manufactured in and imported from Taiwan. Though "officially" it is a Chinese province according to the US government, Taiwan and China have a very antagonistic relationship with one another -- Taiwan wants independence from China and is basically already fully independent in every way except in name. China considers Taiwan to be a 'rogue capitalist province' and the two governments hate one another (going back to the battles between the Chinese nationalists and communists early in the 20th century).
In fact, the US (if I understand correctly) has a very unusual agreement with Taiwan to jump to their defense if they should ever be invaded by China, even though at the same time the US also officially supports the "one China policy."
It is entirely possible that Taiwan wants to enhance its information security to protect itself from mainland China.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
The problem is, of course, that anything in the "lets add an 'e-' and call it a new paradigm" areana its written in giberish / politic-speak / market-speak to start with! Now if anyone knows how to get sense in any language from that, let me know. (Don't offer links to thinks that can translate language into gibberish - I have plenty of people in this office that can do that in thier sleep)
Windows 2000 has built-in support for IPSec and the ability to filter port. It's similar in function to personal firewalls except it might be a bit more difficult to configure properly.
I don't think MS would see this as a valid reason to open it's Windows source up. I'm guessing instead they'll simply tell Taiwan to go by XP which has similar functionality.
At the risk of sounding paranoid: Perhaps they are really worried about secret trapdoors in Windows. MS might be able to bypass security and retrieve stuff from Windows-based PCs. Perhaps the US Government is working MS to do so. In fact, MS did get away pretty lightly with the antitrust stuff... hmmm... nah... couldn't be...
Microsoft products should never have been chosen for government implementation to begin with.
So MS has refused to help China build better censorware -- cool.
(Can anyone suggest an online Chinese English translation engine that produces other than gibberish?)
Here's a translation:
- We would like Microsoft to open the source code for Windows.
- We would also like the drug companies to develop a cure for cancer in the next year or so
- It would be ideal if the Israelis and Palestinians could come to some sort of agreement
- We propose that all record companies make their content available for free, so that all consumers who like the songs will send in a reasonable payment for each song, while consumers who don't like the song will delete it.
All completely reasonable propositions !
The posting refers to Taiwan, not mainland China. Taiwan, also known as the "Republic of China", is not the same country as China, also known as the "People's Republic of China". The former is a peaceful democracy, the latter is a belligerent, brutal totalitarian regime.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Considering the script is in .gif form... these aren't going to be able to translate anything.
- what is the definition of simultanagnosia?! I've been meaning to look it up!
Remember, folks. Taiwan is the Republic of China (ROC) and mainland China is the People's Republic of China (PRC).
This is dealing with the ROC, not the PRC. The PRC claims the ROC is a renegade province, the ROC is just sitting back with the US covering its ass waiting to be able to truly flip the PRC off.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
I don't see the argument that Taiwan needs Microsoft to publicly open the Windows' source code so that Taiwan may add custom firewall software.
Why can't Taiwan privately contract with Microsoft to add such capabilities? Does Taiwan seriously want to use Windows for it's most secure information, and therefore need to know all the internals to Windows? And to release the details to the masses? That seems a bit unrealistic.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of open source. But this one sounds more like industry politics than a technical shortcoming.
I say open up Window's source code in order to curb Microsoft's monopolistic stranglehold on business and individuals and government. Not to add "custom firewall software for Taiwan".
I dunno. Can anyone suggest a slashdot story submission engine that produces other than gibberish?
sulli
RTFJ.
that...
Eye. Like chin-eeeese.
Eye. Like Chin-eeese.
They own.
Lee come up to your kneeeees.
But they're helpful and cheerful and
Ready to please.
... but isn't this a symptom of people multiplexing application protocols over a single port (e.g. SOAP)? It might be a quick and easy way to tunnel pass the sysops but it doesn't allow much in the way of discrimination.
It used to be that you could distinguish stuff (e.g. file magic numbers) which were fairly reliable but with internet application interfaces (cf web page as software contracts) what would be the mechanism to monitor/restrict/block and thus assert control?
LL
1) Microsoft source code is available for a licensing fee - what makes these guys think Microsoft, a mostly software only company, would spend billions on R&D and then give the code to them for free?
2) what does Windows source code have to with a firewall? Isn't a firewall a single machine that sits between the internet and an internal network? Why doesn't china just put up a linux box on all incoming internet lines and run there firewall there? Then all chinese citizens could run Windows - lol - yeah right.
3) I am working on a project that is being sold to china. A requirement is it must be OSS. Good for them you say? Sure, they are getting the inferior slapped together works half the time product. It is dumb to depend on any software that was written for free, dumb.
Don't they realize that Microsoft is a "business"? If they want them to give away their products for free, then they will have to offer them alot more that "Thanks". The day MicroSoft gives Windows away for free is the day they give pink slips to all their employees and fingers to all their investors.
Secondly, China will much rather build its own version of Linux (it already has a project underway). It makes sense for them. If you are starting from scratch, you do not have the biggest problem that prohibits Linux in the office: retraining of non-IT personnel.
Microsoft has not been the first one to feel the wrath of China. China has developed their own x86 chip and, thus, do not depend on either AMD or Intel. They, in fact, are in a position to make 100% Made in China PCs.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Maybe there's someone out there fluent in Chinese that would be good enough to translate some of the article for the rest of us :).
-Joggle
I don't see why don't the Chinese just do what the Communist countries (USSR, China) used to do in the good old days of the Cold War - reverse engineer any sufficiently advanced Western technology.
OB Simpsons ref - the Space shuttle on the 'Homer In Space' episode was an exact copy of the Russian Shuttle, which was a copy of NASA's.
No.
Considering the fact that very few wet-ware translators can do it without introducing a non-negligible level of gibberish, this is a singularly hard problem.
Why should this "custom firewall" be considered a necessity that makes it completely impossible to use closed MS systems? I mean can't they just hide their network of MS computers behind a designated firewall using their custom scheme? I of course wouldn't mind MS opening their code but I don't see why this issue would require it?
Considering how few people actually BUY MS products in that part of the world, why sould MS care about the needs of the Chineese govt.?
The fact that important Chineese systems needing tight security are running anything MS is laughable anyway. (im not saying unix is nessicarily more secure than windows, thats arguable. what im saying is that if national security rides on keeping a server secure, you're gonna want to know a little something about the code you're running!)
This is just a thinly veiled attempt by the Chineese to position thier buisness sector for the upcomming Palladium/TCPA shit-storm.
"Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
http://yahoo.com/news/yahoo/tools/translators/engl ish/to/korean/and/english/to_chinese/translator/cl ick_to_begin/*http://www.tubgirl.com
That's not a translator. >:(
Yeah, Microsoft is going to open the source to Windows for a country that has a 98% software piracy rate. A country where the latest version of Windows will run you $5 on any street corner.
-gerbik
Nation A asks Microsoft to let it see source code, obstentatiously for development reasons, but actually because they wish to insure Nation A didn't put a back door in it, and also so they can put a back door in it themselves.
what was the source that was quoted on this information? I've been looking around the various newssources online and as of yet, there's nothing regarding it. Might want to verify the information from another source before you post.
How WILL Slashdot react to the Chinese gov't wanting MSFT to expose the source so they can add censor code???
Inquiring minds want to know!
ok, that's not funny; it's just stupid.
the spy plane crashed on the chinese island of hainan, which is nowhere near taiwan (relatively speaking). secondly, taiwan is not china, and vice versa. that's like mixing up the us and mexico. big difference, people will get insulted on either side if you fail to see the distinction.
"I DARE you to make less sense!"
Taiwan is not China. Taiwan was formed when the demcratic government was ran off by the communists in the mainland. Taiwan is also capitalist. Taiwan faces constant military threat from China for its liberal policies, and also for calling itself indepedent from the communist Chinese, whereas the communist China considers Taiwan a subjugate state. Every time Taiwan elects new leaders, China threatens to "take back" the island by force.
In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
THIS IS NOT RED CHINA! This is the Republic Of China -- ROC. The republic of china was formed right after the chinese empire fell, but they were defeted by the red communists later, and driven out... into Tiawan which is why the TITLE says tiawan. SO, no this isn't about anti-democracy, because Taiwan is very pro-democracy.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Hmm... the DOS 6.1 source is 19mb in a tgz, and that's about 4000 files.
How many degrees bigger is Windows, do you think?
Someone should make that Taiwanese dude a Slashdot editor! He sounds like a perfect drop-in replacement for Michael, should he ever decide to snuff himself (crosses fingers).
I've thought that the US government could make a grab for the source code claiming eminent domain. If another country had a local Microsoft office with copies of the source it seems they could do this to. It may seem unreasonable but it actually happens quite a bit.
On case that comes to mind is the Willy's jeep. The design was originally by Willys-Overland but the military took the design and gave it to Ford for production.
The needs of the many (i.e. government) often come before those of the individual
and aint it good to know your country is depending on super secure M$ OS to use with thier firewalls?
1) develop ocr software that translates graphical kanji in to uni codes for kanji
2) develop kanji to english translater
3) ???
4) YOU KNOW THIS BIT
What does this question mean for what we understand by "Open Source"?
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
I've tried it many times.
I never got an email back.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
There's no reason in the article for Taiwan to dislike Linux, but RedHat however is an entirely different story.
I am the Barber of Seville.
But it is time to face facts. MS software is convoluted, hacked, integrated for the sake of marketing, and hidden by paranoid executives. We have internet explorer that is so integrated it can be removed, yet separate enough that updates must happen separately from the normal system updates. It is nearly impossible to write code for Windows without Visual Studio due to the closed standards. They have always done this, and it is just getting worse.
I hope more governments move to open source projects. The first step would be to create grants to organizations such as openoffice.org and Mozilla. MS has had ample opportunity to reform in the spirit of democracy, and has laughed at us all the way to the bank. They create web pages that can only be read using their browser, and documents that can only be read by their office suite, and demand that the government use this elitists products. Old capitalistic arguments cannot be used to subvert the importance of open communication within the democratic state.
Of course, in this article Tiwain probably wants to force everyone to use a special version of windows that can be bugged, monitored, and logged by goverment agencies, but that would even be bette with open source. We don't know that Windowss is not logging information to governments. At least with open source we could check.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I used Bablefish, and it did translate some stuff that was text. But, it appears that the article is actually a graphic, not text. So, you'd need OCR software. I guess it's easier for them to do it that way because of the nature of their language. But, it kind of sucks for the rest of us. :(
There is also a LOT of JavaScript in there too.
DaganGH@hotmail.com
you americans are such lamers. taiwan is not china. people living in central and south america consider themselves american's. no wonder why america has an idiot for a president.
Red Flag Linux - a beatiful thing
If Microsofts monopoly compromises against security issues for a country I dont see why not. As of now if a country has the right to go about any means necessary and any means possible to protect itself then why should something as trivial as source code get in the way. Even if Bill Gates himself has to go to Taiwan to sit in a dark room and solve the problem for them.
Honestly, I don't think the article is as straightforward as it seems. We must ask, why even ask that of Microsoft? I believe the answer is politics. Somehow, there is a struggle going on over there, dealing with which road to take technically. I think Microsoft is probably over there pitching and wooing as hard as it can, but Taiwan laid down the guantlet: open up or your out.
I would also assume that Microsoft has its supporters in governemnt, and this official is simply trying to keep the argument on it's technical merits so as not to upset any politicos. It's framed in such a way, that it's essentially a state-security issue: if Microsoft doesn't open the code, then we are more open to [Chinese] hacking and snooping. Who can argue they're not in favor of a more secure state. Actually, very, very smart on this official's part. Played this way, it appears as though it's Microsoft's problem and not about any particular government official.
There are probably many other culture differences that we cannot even begin to understand.
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
This seems to be politics rearing its head and not so much about Microsoft.
There seems to be an underlying current that seems to point to a battle between those with a preference for Microsoft and those with a preference for Linux.
Linux lovers: "But it has to be secure."
Microsoft lovers: "Huh? But I like Word."
Linux lovers: "Yeah, Linux has all these great things to make it secure but Microsoft doesn't."
Microsoft lovers: "Huh? But I like Excel."
Linux lovers: "Well, I guess we could possibly use Microsoft code (wink, wink). We'll just write them a letter, get the source code, and we'll write our own secure stuff (wink, wink)."
(Microsoft tells them to go take a flying leap.)
Linux lovers: "Well, that's too bad. It looks like Microsoft isn't going to be secure. We can't use it. Boo hoo (wink, wink)."
"Money often costs too much" -- Emerson
Microsoft asked Linus Torvalds, the developer of the Linux, to change his license to something similar to Microsoft's. They claim that Linus is practicing unfair business practices by giving away his code for free, undercutting them by hundreds of dollars.
In another news, Bill Gates was found laughing hystarically at the news report that Taiwan wanted Microsoft to open its source code.
In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
If Microsoft releases their source code to the Chinese, absolutely for sure, for sure, the source code will be widely distributed, and will be used to make a clone of MS Windows. That's the cultural reality.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
The Federal Ministry of the Interior in Austria is the first government body in Europe to be granted the source code for Windows XP under Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative
n/t
but Lin emphasizes this request is reasonable since it is based on (government users') necessity
What is this? Does anything go if it is based on necessity? Are we equating need with reasonable and right?
At my age I find coming up with a witty signature too exhausting.
Microsoft asks Taiwan to go take a flying fuck at a rolling dumpling. HA! HA!
Never happen. Never happen. Never happen.
Many government contracts out there exist with MS.
First I (Bill) will deploy my OS in all of the countries in the world with the help of the US government, CIA, etc. then I will TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Sort of strange that someone like Bill might have both delusions of grandure AND rule the world at the same time.
come on fhqwhgads
Yeah, Microsoft is going to open the source to Windows for a country that has a 98% software piracy rate. A country where the latest version of Windows will run you $5 on any street corner.
So, then, what's the loss to Microsoft in this case?
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Hundreds of Universities and corporations already have access to the Windows source code. Taiwan just may get it too.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
... something like the source code for the secrets behind chinese food. How do they make all of that damn food so good and so cheap at the same time? They do that, and you'll see thousands of "Bill's Happy Rucky Chinese Food" shops all over the world not soon thereafter.
So, then, what's the loss to Microsoft in this case?
Because once Microsoft releases the source to anyone, we will all have it.
The world's richest man smiled when he saw the giant air-filled condom in India's rising technology hub of Hyderabad, where his company has opened its first software development center outside the United States.
The billionaire inaugurated his four-day visit to India on Monday by announcing $100 million in contributions from his charity, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, to spread awareness on AIDS.
India has four million people with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, making it the second largest number in the world after South Africa"
Maybe BillyG would like to send a couple of these to Taiwan
Yeah, the Chineese who pirate everything on the face of the earth are asking for windows source code huh? And I'm sure there wouldn't be a clone of windows on the market next week if that happened. While they are at it, why don't they ask for the PIN number for Bill G's ATM card.
Dude... go away. I was there first. Kylie is MINE!!!
They show just how stupid and ill-informed the Slashdot crowd are.
People falling all over thesmelves to complain about China and the 'chinks' as one poster put it and yet the story isn't even about China. All this stuff about piracy and spy planes and coming down hard on free speech... Wrong country!
D'oh!
Makes you wanna snicker.
Some guy in a post a little while ago said that Taiwan wanted the source code to "ostentatiously" make it more secure. What the hell? I guess Taiwan is just full of ostentatious people.
I think that away from a computer console about 90% of the people here have an IQ of ten and have never read a newspaper in their life.
Dosent microsoft already open source to some Corporations ? I believe it is not the complete compilable source though.
This was a publicity stunt from someone who wanted to plug Linux. There are thousands of source licensees for Windows, and I wager the government of Taiwan is one of them. Maybe this person's particular firewall project didn't get a source license -- not to mention how it didn't need one, as MS's network stack is absolutely pluggable and documented in the SDK -- but this doesn't immediately translate into a mandate for MS to give the code away and satisfy one person who could easily vote with his feet and use FreeBSD+netgraph, OpenBSD+ipf, or Linux.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I think it would be great if the end result of this was the Taiwanese government deciding to switch to Linux. The money they would save on future licenses could be better spent on furthering development of the tools that they need, if they aren't already available to them with Linux, and since the underlying code is open source, that problem is eliminated. Seems like a win-win situation for the Taiwanese government and Linux users world wide.
I don't think this will happen though. More likely MS will do the minimum that it needs to do to keep Taiwan happy. The source code will never be open, but they may add some features or create a firewall that will fill the need. They may even end up profiting off of this. They can tell Taiwan that they will do it for Taiwan, instead of the Taiwanese government using it's own programmers whom would not be familiar with the source code. Who better to modify Windows than the people that work on Windows day in and day out?
Maybe someone high up in the Linux community should step up and make an offer to the Taiwanese government. Maybe make them a package deal that would include training their IT people on how to properly install, configure, and maintain Linux as well as training some of them to be able to teach others how to use the new software.
How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
China has some balls suggesting Microsoft open it's code to their government when the Chinese government isn't open to it's own populace.
Can you say "Tiananmen Square, 1989?"
Yeah. I knew that you could. Chinese citizens are still regularly detained, imprisoned and killed for their thoughts and speech. And they want openness?
For once I'm with Microsoft I'm OUTRAGED that such an oppressive group of 1950 throwbacks, not one iota distinct from common criminals, would even request it. Tell them to shove it up their ass.
My
Limekiller
So the Chineese can add "Custom Firewall code" to the Windows source???
Why don't they just buy a damn firewall and put their computers behind it? That's what the rest of the world does?
Am I missing something?
...but the actual motive here seems pretty obvious. Half the people reading this post could layer whatever kind of supercomplex, 3 megs of IP tables firewalling that the State wants into a cheap Linux box that could be placed at all the gateway points to a particular section of country.
Filtering and control of TCP/IP doesn't require anything remotely like OS source. Right now, millions of people in Asia with their bootlegged (we hope) copies of Windows enjoy a great deal more freedom of information than they've ever had. They can share, they can organize, and keep company with people all over their continent in a fashion that should scare the socks off any but the most open of societies.
If I wanted to regain some control of information flow in any of those countries, I would want the Windows source. I would release the State version of it for a cheap price, and I would declare anyone using the non-state approved version a subversive and a law breaker. Each time the state approved version hit a website, or made any contact with any piece of software it would ask for that software's State ID. It would report all such information at its next opportunity to State sponsored computers. In filtering this data it would become obvious where the IP addresses were in your country that were not running the State version of the OS. Filtering the logs to distinguish subversives versus 'normal' folks would be a snap.
The only kind of filter that you can't add to Windows after the fact is one you don't want the user to be able to remove or refuse to install.
Welcome to the Panopticon.
Look. You may not balance your checkbook every month. I know I don't. I DO trust that my bank will do the arithmetic correctly most of the time.
However, would you like to get a bank statement that just list your beginning and ending balance?
Not me and I doubt you would accept it too.
While I don't check the arithmetic usually, the bank knows that I CAN CHECK it any time I want. Thus, they work to make sure that there're no problems.
Similarly, knowing that the source code is visible makes the vendor think carefully about what to put in it in the first place. And that's worth a lot.
Finding and asking these guys for it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
If Microsoft actually opened the source, how long until we see the Taiwanese operating system called Doors 200X or something?
This post is free (as in cheese in a mousetrap).
I seem to have left the word "leveraging" out of my statement. It
should read, "work with select partners to ensure that this need is
met within a trusted computing framework by leveraging the shared
source initiative..."
Anyway, my point is that nothing meaningful will come of it.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Taiwan is a herectic provience of China!
Eventually they will be returned to the fold!
And who cares about obsolete spyplanes when you sell us operating systems with NSA backdoors built in! That's why we want the damn source code! (errrr... couldn't they just go with an operating system that they could modify the source ?!!)
I may be alone here, but I do not think Microsoft should open its source code. I believe if Microsoft did publicly release Windows source code, every open source project would live in fear of a lawsuit. Microsoft's would sue everyone that released anything for copyright infringement.
TAIWAN: PLZ GIVE US ALL OF UR SRC CODEZ
MICROSOFT: OMG!!11!! FUK U!
TAIWAN: OMG WE CULD CONBINE ARE SKILLZ AND BE ElITE!
MICROSOFT: OMG!!!! YES!!11!!!!!!!
Sorry.
The local city government can eminent domain away property rights of a street full of homeowners to accomodate the construction of a freakin' Costco. The United States government can install puppet juntas in Latin America to prevent the spread of communism.
Taiwan getting a looky at the the Windows source code to protect their national security from a large, powerful, local, and real communist threat seems pretty tame.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
It's kind of ironic. With piracy do prevalent in Taiwan, they are asking MS to release their source code. Within 6 hrs. after releasing it, you'll be able to get your very own copy for $5 (US).
Also, seems like the officials didn't know what he is talking about. How could open source help you get better firewall.
You might want to steer clear of Japanese phrases ("Ah-soooo") when stereotyping Koreans.
Hell, you might want to steer clear of stereotyping people altogether.
Well, it was just a thought.
graspee
How can the truth be flamebait? Avoiding saying anything bad about another culture is not smart, it is just ignorant.
"More famously, there was a version of a very popular C compiler that would put in a back-door whenever it noticed itself compiling a common bit of Unix login code,"
Nope. This was a theoretical attack presented by Ken Thompson. It was never out in the wild, to the best of anyone's knowledge.
The point still remains that you can't trust code unless you can personally verify it at any level, because the moment you give any important code trust, the code can potentially use that as a way of subverting the entire system.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
And the military should also design all their own integrated circuits and processors too? If not, how do they know their communication and encryption chips don't have backdoors built into them?
Maybe Microsoft thinks if they can 'sway' a few Chinese communists with umm... campaign donations like they do in this country, they can convince China to nuke Taiwan tomorrow!
Or was this supposed to be funny? Either way, yer a cretin.
This way they can control content even if you get an illicit internet connection out of the country and by pass the national firewall of content..
Interesting concept.. near total control of incoming information..
Just add a dash of DRM to control local content.. instant 100% suppression of 'non authorized' information.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The ROC was not a democracy until the 90's. Previously, it was a military dictatorship that was as bad as the communists.
Hands up: who of you all doesnt already have a pirated windows binary at hand? Not that you would do anything with it, just for showoff. Now where do I need the source if I already had a working binary.
Dunno how many actually working binaries exist, maybe if some group outside microsoft... naaah.. no way their going to do it..
Maybe they just want to compile it themselves to make sure there aren't any NSA/CIA/FBI backdoors installed in it.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
You've been trolled by one of the oldest trolls on Slashdot. While you're at it, don't follow any suspicious links, or you'll end up at http://goatse.cx, and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>And the military should also design all their own integrated circuits and processors too?
.. if its cheaper (assuming they can build to the same levels of quality as a producer in the market), why not? isnt that what capitalism is all about? utlizing the efficiency of economy of scale when its useful, but not using it when its not?
if its cheaper, sure. um
> how do they know their communication and encryption chips don't have backdoors built into them?
good question, although you _can_ reverse engineer the chips if you want to. its not nearly as difficult as verifying the functionality of a million-lines-of-code binary after its been compiled against its target.
"Old man yells at systemd"
"Why the hell should I be forced into forking over more cash when I can just do the goddamn work myself."
This breaks your entire rant right there. If you were getting more value for doing the work yourself, you would've already chosen that path. By saying that the money spent is a smaller cost than the personal time needed to master the concepts and develop the software, you are making an economic decision. The type that drives forward the economy. Why eat out when you can cook at home? Why buy carrots from a store when you can grow them yourself?
You have to specialize at some point, otherwise you'll end up being a person who is ok or decent at many menial tasks, while not really enjoying the benefits modern society has to offer. If you're whinning about how expensive something is when you can do it yourself, you're only trying to distract us from the fact that you haven't done it yourself! Actions do speak louder than whines.
Before you whine about trust, you should understand the economic underpinnings of these decisions. Since software is digital, the cost is all in the creation phase. You should tell your government to look in to escrow software development. Have a fixed dollar value attached to projects + the condition that it be GPLed upon release, then drum up the funding for it. Some company wanting to make money will invest time in it to reap the money returns, and the government gets software that it can again set contracts on ("we now need to to collate documents. We'll give $4,000 to anyone who gives us this feature").
You could take the alternate route that customers enter in to a limited-trust scenario. Complete access to source code, provided they do not provide it to anyone else. This lets clients pick over everything, while keeping the accountability that would allow a traditional software company to continue to sell the software + support to other people until the escrow method becomes more popular.
If today's software companies were to just give away everything as you state, they'd die. When you develop some great algorithm that suites a problem, you've done the work. When someone else comes along and copies it, you have no way of recouping the cost of the work because the copy cost is 0. Without some sort of escrowed payment system and trusted-client relationship for these innovations, software development would mostly grind to a halt.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
> I still find it funny that a communist country like China can claim
> to be the "Peoples Republic of China"
The adjective "People's", in communist countries, doesn't mean the
same thing that it means in (for example) the US. To us, "people" is
the plural of "person", and "People's" is possessive plural,
indicating that the item is owned by a group of individuals who
are each a person. It doesn't mean that in China. Rather, it
means something along the lines of "controlled by the state that
governs the People", where "the People" is a collective term that
refers not to individuals but to the entire populace as a nation.
(The simple plural people, meaning a number of individual people,
is also used, but you can tell the difference from context.)
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
... a candidate for data obfuscation which is superior to Microsoft's attempts!
... (The above being a dramatic estimate for Win2K, obviously I'm sure you could weed out particulars but the big picture remains the same beast). I think MS should just release it. It will be years before anyone (particularly a gov't org) is ready to make any sense of it, and more specifically, ready to apply changes. If they're extra paranoid then release it after stripping comments and being run through a code scrambler to get those vars nice and confusing :).
Then its not such a reasonable request to open the source, not to mention the enourmous amounts of thrid party patches to fix the bugs and the botched microsoft patches, but hey if they did windows might become a decent operating system,
oh, nevermind.
Pretty entertaining reading...
God Asks Devil to "Be Sweet"
Actually the article summary itself is a good translation of the chinese text.
My Chinese is read only these days.
Yeah, I know it's not an accurate joke, but I didn't think you guys would jump me for it. I'm gonna go cry now :`(
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
as a Chinese linguist, software development analyst, and native English speaker I can shed some light on the online translation gibberish that you speak of...
the differences in the two languages are obviously numerous and difficult since the origins of each language are not similar and are totally foreign in tongue and text.
Foremost, the challenge for an automated translation tool is to deliver a grammatically correct output. Many tools, some online, can do simple word for word swapping, but at the core of the issue you speak of, is the programmatic need for a logic engine for grammar. Many masters level and above academia are currently developing a logic engine that starts with phrase match/swapping, and strives to achieve grammatically-correct concept swapping with full fidelity translation.
Deciding how to account for regionalisms, religiousism, localism, translation-produced humor(un-intended), etc is one of the main hurdles for any translator, human or automated and opinions vary widely about coping with these issues.
The development of an on-line translation tool has several benefits... easy access worldwide, centralized changes and updates, feedback mechanisms, version control, etc and INHO its a great thing.
The hard part for academia has been to get everyone to agree to work from the same set of basics, update the same database, version control, the obvious cultural differences, etc. Some of the very challenges that plague software development teams are re-surfacing under a different guise.
If you have heard of anything to the contrary or know more than I do please reply, i'll check back
Courtesy of Sherlock 3 (I know enough chinese to know that half of this is subtly wrong but this will do, to get the basic idea):::
Lin Shu the Ling/Taibei reported submits the administrative reconciliation plan book eve in beautiful business Microsoft to the fair transaction committee, Executive Yuan ãSÒ meeting Chairman Lin Chiach'eng indicated, for enhances the government information security, then melts the monopoly, the government set the opening primitive code requirement to Microsoft. Only he stressed that, is a negotiation has nothing to do with with the fair meeting administrative reconciliation. Requires Microsoft to open the primitive code, the development free software is the present phase government to develops the job software two big policies main axle.
Manages the Executive Yuan "the electron government" plan Lin Chiach'eng to indicate that, except Taiwan outside, recently also had many countries also to Microsoft to propose the opening primitive code requirement, believed Microsoft was carrying on the comprehensive appraisal, by opened the primitive code in accordance to this requirement the tide.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed that, the free software can open the primitive code to utilize for user, the governmental agency user then may according to the above independently design the firewall, lets the government information obtain a higher safeguarding. The counter- view Microsoft job system, the governmental agency attains the primitive code, does not have the means voluntarily Canada to garrison in its original job program the wall with flues for heating, enhances the safety coefficient.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed, because the governmental agency uses the Microsoft job system the proportion quite high, Microsoft has not opened the primitive code to use for our country, secure is quite disadvantageous to the government information.
Passes regarding Microsoft repeatedly take "the safeguarding copyright" as the pretext, resists certainly to open the primitive code to the user the movement, Lin Chiach'eng believed, the opening primitive code has very many different levels, the entire job system primitive code opening is one kind of level, the local opening also is another kind of level. He stressed that, based on the use need, "requires Microsoft to open the primitive code is very reasonable."
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, including IBM, HP, rose and so on to have the emulation relations positive with Microsoft the merchant recently all quite positively to develop the LINUX job system, the government cannot completely rely on Microsoft in the policy. Much less the government information security is such important, certainly must protect oneself.
The related official pointed out, because the primitive code is public, may let the user unceasingly improve according to the itself demand, LINUX by its low-price quality merchandise, the secure high superiority, on a large scale is entering the various countries government apparatus large-scale computer system, specially the military and the sentiment govern the unit. Including American Pentagon, air force, Federal Aviation Administration and so on, also all has uses the LINUX job system.
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, in the policy, "will require Microsoft to open the primitive code", "the impetus free software" advances in unison, the government information system will not be able to rely on the sole merchant. Executive Yuan country information communication development impetus group, has established "the free software direction committee", estimated two seven years may have thirty % above governments units and the enterprise network server end use free software job platform, ten % personal computings use the free software platform.
of a republic is. People represent people in goverment. They don't have to be voted in, they can be appointed to. Just because its not the way it is in America doesn't mean its not a republic. Some other republics are(were) USSR, Iraq, U.K., etc.
The fact is that Microsoft has granted thousands of shared source licences. I have no doubt that the ROC can get one. But that is not what the ROC is asking for. They obviously want permission to modify the source and create derived apps from it.
And of course, MS is not going to allow that. No vendor of proprietary software would.
There is something else as well. For those who are unaware, NT is highly customizable at compile time. The gov't (US) and many major corps (eg, Boeing) request NT with various bit flags set at compile time. There is no reason that the ROC could not do the same.
The ROC wants the source not to see, but to mess with and use in their own apps - perhaps even OSS apps. Is it any wonder that MS would respond FU?
How about this: when the shit hits the fan, there will be three Red Chinese for every one of you...When Jiang says jump, you make like a fucking frog, okay?
:)
Such an obvious little troll. "Feed me! Feed me!" Awwww... So cute... Ok, just a tidbit now...
Numeric superiority only matters when you insist on playing their game or you have no other choice. Funny how Britain, Germany, Japan and Russia have all told us to 'jump' at one time or another too... Did a shit load a good, didn't it
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Here's a quick and dirty translation provided by Systran via Sherlock-
Lin Shu the Ling/Taibei reported submits the administrative reconciliation plan book eve in beautiful business Microsoft to the fair transaction committee, Executive Yuan ãSÒ meeting Chairman Lin Chiach'eng indicated, for enhances the government information security, then melts the monopoly, the government set the opening primitive code requirement to Microsoft. Only he stressed that, is a negotiation has nothing to do with with the fair meeting administrative reconciliation. Requires Microsoft to open the primitive code, the development free software is the present phase government to develops the job software two big policies main axle.
Manages the Executive Yuan "the electron government" plan Lin Chiach'eng to indicate that, except Taiwan outside, recently also had many countries also to Microsoft to propose the opening primitive code requirement, believed Microsoft was carrying on the comprehensive appraisal, by opened the primitive code in accordance to this requirement the tide.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed that, the free software can open the primitive code to utilize for user, the governmental agency user then may according to the above independently design the firewall, lets the government information obtain a higher safeguarding. The counter- view Microsoft job system, the governmental agency attains the primitive code, does not have the means voluntarily Canada to garrison in its original job program the wall with flues for heating, enhances the safety coefficient.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed, because the governmental agency uses the Microsoft job system the proportion quite high, Microsoft has not opened the primitive code to use for our country, secure is quite disadvantageous to the government information.
Passes regarding Microsoft repeatedly take "the safeguarding copyright" as the pretext, resists certainly to open the primitive code to the user the movement, Lin Chiach'eng believed, the opening primitive code has very many different levels, the entire job system primitive code opening is one kind of level, the local opening also is another kind of level. He stressed that, based on the use need, "requires Microsoft to open the primitive code is very reasonable."
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, including IBM, HP, rose and so on to have the emulation relations positive with Microsoft the merchant recently all quite positively to develop the LINUX job system, the government cannot completely rely on Microsoft in the policy. Much less the government information security is such important, certainly must protect oneself.
The related official pointed out, because the primitive code is public, may let the user unceasingly improve according to the itself demand, LINUX by its low-price quality merchandise, the secure high superiority, on a large scale is entering the various countries government apparatus large-scale computer system, specially the military and the sentiment govern the unit. Including American Pentagon, air force, Federal Aviation Administration and so on, also all has uses the LINUX job system.
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, in the policy, "will require Microsoft to open the primitive code", "the impetus free software" advances in unison, the government information system will not be able to rely on the sole merchant. Executive Yuan country information communication development impetus group, has established "the free software direction committee", estimated two seven years may have thirty % above governments units and the enterprise network server end use free software job platform, ten % personal computings use the free software platform.
> If today's software companies were to just give away everything as you state, they'd die.
Thats just plain bullshit. This _why_ we have legal protection from copying ideas (or a certain level of protection, which is what this is all about.)
I dont wanna build an OS. I cant build an OS for cheaper than MS. But I can build my custom firewall cheaper (and faster, and more customized to my use) than MS.
You can take your ideas to the extreme; everything you see, hear, etc came from somebody. Which took effort. And you're stealing it all. But I'm just curious why physical producers don't lock up their products before they ship them out the door but software producers are terrified. Copying the 'idea' of how to build a good engine starter, which took lots of thinking to come up with, also costs 0 dollars. In fact, you could turn around and sell this knowledge to the next guy and profit off of it. But its illegal to do that, so theres no reason to ensure that nobody is capable of dissassembling a motor starter.
In fact, imagine if it were illegal to make closed source software. You can verify that producer A did in fact steal an idea from producer B (an idea that is protected by a patent of course, because its not illegal simply to use an idea you find in somebody's product unless its patented.) and the issue about detecting law breakers is resolved.
But think about it. Patents exist, in part, to ensure that everybody DOES have access to the details of an idea. If you wanna get protected by law to be owned money when folks use your idea, be prepared to share it (since its been demonstrated over hundreds of years its better for everybody when people can improve on ideas in incremental fasions. No idea is 100% original, and 100% yours. If its an original idea, its an original reformulation of other people's thinking.) Protecting the source of an application is, quite simply, a method of being garaunteed payment for your IP while circumventing the other stipulations in patent laws (that you have to publish your idea).
Its much like how the DMCA effectively renders copyright law a moot point because you can wrap up work with an artificial mechanism that circumvents the processes and laws we put in place in order to balance the interest of the public against the interest of creators.
Its useless to allow people to avoid these institutions using technology. These laws (in theory) are designed to balance interests. If theres something broken about them, lets fix it, but in the very least lets not encourage economical models that can let innovators protect and profit off of ideas without repaying the scientific and engineering community for all the ideas they used in building their product.
"Old man yells at systemd"
As Linux continues to mature and Micro$oft keeps losing more and more control, M$ will have no choice but to open the Windows source in order to compete and give consumers what they want. It reminds me of what M$ did to Netscape with IE (giving IE away for free to f*ck Netscape). I'll go even further and predict that Windows will also be free eventually. There is no other way Windows will last. As Linux gains popularity (it's already huge now anyway), what person or company is going to pay for Windows and all the new licenses and upgrades that are required? TCO? come on... every day more and more linux gurus are emerging, and universities are teaching *nix heavily also. Finding Linux support will be no problem. M$ is screwed and they know it. It's just going to be a while before it happens (at least several years). just my $.02. no refunds.
I'm certain that whatever motives ROC government had in requesting Windows source code from MSFT are far from pure. However, given the NSA_KEY episode and the existance of things like ECHELON, I have to believe that any foreign government has to suspect US government spyware might be in Windows.
If the government of ROC doesn't at least think about the possibility of TLA agency spyware or trojans in such a massive closed-source OS, they aren't being paranoid enough.
Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
Ok, lets assume for a moment in a galaxy far, far away that this senario is even remotely possible. Are you there yet? No,no,no... You have to focus. There. Now is it just me, or is Taiwan THE LAST COUNTRY you want to be sending anything valuble concerning your software to??? We're talking piracy central here, or at least it's major orbiting satillite. As wonderful as the fanboys might find this, I'd have to side against it. I mean really-- Microsoft's product would be turned inside out within days and blasted across the net at faster than light speeds. I sure as hell wouldn't want that happening to my product... But then, this is Penguine/Mac country, so what the hell, right?
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Any bets on how long there continue to be two Chinas? Right on up to the day that BigChina decides, or realizes, it really, really can just take LittleChina. Which it probably can do any time it wants to with "only" around a couple of hundred thousand lives lost. The BigChina really wouldn't wouldn't have a problem with that. Peasants are cheap in BigChina. Really. Sad, that.
Today, in a landmark victory for Open Source activists, Microsoft released the source code to the popular operating system FreeBSD... umm, Windows XP. Story at eleven.
As a test that I could try, I typed in "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy yellow dog" and asked Sherlock to convert the phrase to Simplified Chinese. Then, I converted it back to English, which resulted in the phrase, "The fast brown fox has jumped the lazy decadent dog." Not quite jibberish, but I wouldn't use it for writing anti-war treaties with foreign countries either...
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What has slashdot come to? Am I the only one who is sick of seeing most of the +5 comments being inane posts and rated Funny?
And in other news, the US asked Osama Bin Laden to come out with his hands up and give himself up.
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
There certainly is an element of politics involved, but there are also very good reasons for Taiwan to want to see the source code.
My understanding is that Taiwan would like some kind of firewalling capability that they can trust built right in to Windows. Not some plugin or 3rd party app. that could be removed in some way. The problem is that while MS could certainly implement such a thing, how do you know that it isn't removeable, and that it can't be bypassed? How do you kow there aren't any backdoors in the code? In short, why exactly should you trust MS?
The only way for Taiwan to be sure that there are no backdoors, and that their firewall works the way that they want it to, is to implement it themselves. They need to build their own OS with firewall buil-in. And they'll need to do it with full access to the source, just so they can be sure that there isn't anything hidden.
Moogooglegaipan. Only problem is that after 2 hours you have to re-do the translation.
Yeah, that's exactely the problem. I think what the Chinese gov't want is a W2K version where the network stack is NOT replaceable, and where the whole system obey "the official policy".
I was going off of the definition kanji=="Chinese characters", not kanji=="Japanese version of Chinese characters." Apparently, the distinction is:
"Hanzi are the semi-ideographic syllabic/whole-word characters that writers of Chinese use (regardless of their language/dialect); Kanji is a set of Japanese semi-ideographic characters, which were borrowed/derived from the Chinese Hanzi long ago." - Bob Davidson
My main point was that you couldn't simply copy and paste the article into a translation tool whereas you could use an IME to enter it tediously (I don't have any OCR software that reads hanzi).
-Joggle
Perhaps the true reason is that they have *loads* of illegal copies and fear the automatic licence checks coming in the next versions, so they just want to be able to tamper with that ?
Neither did I. Although I utilize a different technique in which I smoke a really really big blunt instead of employing advanced filtering methodologies. Do you like bluegrass music?
Microsoft responded to Taiwan's requests by recalling to Pearl Harbour the USS Carl Vinson and her battle group, currently in the Taiwan strait observing Chinese naval exercises. Micrsoft also suggested that further extensions of China's "most favoured nation" trade status may no longer be contingent upon Chinese non-aggression towards Taiwan.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
Crotch 1. Crotch 2. Crotch 3.
the truth in all of this is that our governments CAN infact build their own software, mainly because (theoretically now) WE ARE the government ;)
so, why don't we change the way we do it?
(this means vote opposite to big business (read:Republican))
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't use Windows.
would tend to agree - doesn't microsoft alread have a source program for universities and large corperations/governments?
The sources to the Windows operating system has been shared by microsoft for a long long time.
/ univer sity/NTSrcLicInfo.aspx
All major universities with comp sci progams have the sources.
Look yha,
http://research.microsoft.com/collaboration
Screw you ROC guys, I am going home!
IOException - Can't Speak
Or they might just give the source code to the Tiawanese government. I realise that most people on /. think that the MS source code is some kind of uber secret, but it's not, lots of people have it. Academic instutions can obtain the source to Microsoft OSes free of charge and indeed ASU in Phoenix (I mention it since I live nearby) has a liscence to the code.
It's not like it's an all or nothing thing, MS doesn't have to make the source available to the world they can (and do) just make it available to those that they want to. Doesn't matter though, Tiawan is whining over nothing, there are plenty of third party firewalls already that work with Windows, and are testably secure via scanners and sniffers.
thanks to a free market.
Taiwan will use what they need to to get the job done; if having the source is a requirement, Microsoft will either provideit, or lose the sale to some other company or product that meets their requirements, or, of course, cut them a deal they can't refuse sans source.
Please don't mention security through obscurity.. you know that if MS released the windows source openly, it would drive up the number of windows clones and aid in reverse engineering all their weird apis.. it wouild spell their undoing, currently. They do have a valid reason not to release it, their business currently depends on it.
They want MS to open up there secrets so they can better hide there own secrets? Anyone see the irony?
... should have been:
"Sure, just show is the license for even one copy that you're running."
Taiwan is an independant country. China has threatened to invade if Taiwan declares independence. China considers Taiwan a "renegade province" and will attempt to take Taiwan back.
Maybe i'm paranoid, but if China is wanting MS's source, it's not for any firewall features, it's to find flaws in the most widely distributed OS in the world. I mean the CIA has already warned of possible Chinese cyber-terrorism against U.S. and Taiwanese computer systems. What better time and way to take over a country than to launch a major cyber-attack against the prey and the defender, while the defender is involved in another war?
I'm personally going to wager that if the US gets into it with Iraq, that China will take that opportunity to try and take Taiwan. I also think that China will probably retaliate against the US if we defend Taiwan. And we will defend Taiwan , or so pledges George Bush.
There is a technical term for what is being asked for. It's called disclosed source code, not Open Source.
No, actually it's called "shared source". YOU call it "disclosed source code". The title is "open the Windows source code"... similar to "open the window, i just farted", or "open up the box". Nowhere did anything or anyone say "*open source* Windows" in the philisophical sense.
You're stating the obvious from the article, so I can only assume your comment got mindlessly modded up because you're "Bruce Perens", and so you MUST have something important to say, even if it's just rehashing the article and should have been moderated "Redundant".
Lin Shu the Ling/Taibei reported submits the administrative reconciliation plan book eve in beautiful business Microsoft to the fair transaction committee, Executive Yuan ãSÒ meeting Chairman Lin Chiach'eng indicated, for enhances the government information security, then melts the monopoly, the government set the opening primitive code requirement to Microsoft. Only he stressed that, is a negotiation has nothing to do with with the fair meeting administrative reconciliation. Requires Microsoft to open the primitive code, the development free software is the present phase government to develops the job software two big policies main axle.
Manages the Executive Yuan "the electron government" plan Lin Chiach'eng to indicate that, except Taiwan outside, recently also had many countries also to Microsoft to propose the opening primitive code requirement, believed Microsoft was carrying on the comprehensive appraisal, by opened the primitive code in accordance to this requirement the tide.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed that, the free software can open the primitive code to utilize for user, the governmental agency user then may according to the above independently design the firewall, lets the government information obtain a higher safeguarding. The counter- view Microsoft job system, the governmental agency attains the primitive code, does not have the means voluntarily Canada to garrison in its original job program the wall with flues for heating, enhances the safety coefficient.
Lin Chiach'eng stressed, because the governmental agency uses the Microsoft job system the proportion quite high, Microsoft has not opened the primitive code to use for our country, secure is quite disadvantageous to the government information.
Passes regarding Microsoft repeatedly take "the safeguarding copyright" as the pretext, resists certainly to open the primitive code to the user the movement, Lin Chiach'eng believed, the opening primitive code has very many different levels, the entire job system primitive code opening is one kind of level, the local opening also is another kind of level. He stressed that, based on the use need, "requires Microsoft to open the primitive code is very reasonable."
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, including IBM, HP, rose and so on to have the emulation relations positive with Microsoft the merchant recently all quite positively to develop the LINUX job system, the government cannot completely rely on Microsoft in the policy. Much less the government information security is such important, certainly must protect oneself.
The related official pointed out, because the primitive code is public, may let the user depend on the itself demand not Breaks the improvement, LINUX by its low-price quality merchandise, the secure high superiority, on a large scale enters the various countries government apparatus large-scale computer system, specially the military and the sentiment govern the unit. Including American Pentagon, air force, Federal Aviation Administration and so on, also all has uses the LINUX job system.
Lin Chiach'eng believed that, in the policy, "will require Microsoft to open the primitive code", "the impetus free software" advances in unison, the government information system will not be able to rely on the sole merchant. Executive Yuan country information communication development impetus group, has established "the free software direction committee", estimated two seven years may have thirty % above governments units and the enterprise network server end use free software job platform, ten % personal computings use the free software platform.
it almost makes sense! "two big policies main axle" indeed... I'm also not sure what Canada is doing in there.
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
taiwan wants ms to open there source up so they can find better ways of spamming your system.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
here's another one, "Democrats, will you start telling the truth and fighting for the working man in reality (you know... the ones you like taxing the shit out of to support your limousine and caviar?)"
Maybe they can't give out the source because they lost it when Bill sold his soul to the devil during the anti-trust trial.
As a result, all the code behind the header files was converted to ancient Sanscrit. It now runs via satanic influence. So everyone can see the API calls but no one has any clue how it works.
That's a joke. Although if it were true, we'd never know the difference anyways.
This space for rent.
God asks Satan to try being nice to people.
Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, I'm just a fucking idiot.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Ok China... you stop piracy.. and MS you give them the source.
There isn't that simple?
Kids these days... geez.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
As for the US backing in case of a Chinese invasion, it's 100 km from China to Taiwan and 5000 km from the US to Taiwan. If the Chinese want to, they can take it easily. 3 US carriers won't help a bit against a Chinese offensive with 500,000 men.
You sound like you know a little about the internal politics of Taiwan, but judging by the comment above, you haven't been there for more than a few days.
1) The PRC has no way to put 500,000 men on the island in the first place. The boats simply don't exist. Further, in these days of radar, hydrophones, satellite photography, etc. doing a D-Day style attack is infinitely more complicated than it was in 1944. While the 500,000 troops are making their way across the Taiwan Strait on hypothetical boats, the word "sitting duck" comes to mind.
2) The layout of the island makes it hard to invade. The West Coast (the one facing China) is a nearly solid block of concrete buildings, with a few farms to break the tedium. Fighting in urban areas is annoyingly difficult. The East Coast (the one facing the Pacific) is mountainous, with some of the peaks rising from sea level to 13,000 feet (4,000 m) in less than 60 miles. Fighting in heavily forested mountains is also rather difficult.
Rather than listening to me, check with Admiral Nimitz, the WWII military leader. He drew up a battle plan for invading Taiwan as a precursor to the invasion of Japan that everyone expected would be needed to end the war. The Nimitz plan anticipated 250,000 US casualties would be incurred to pry loose 50,000 Japanese soldiers. There are currently about 250,000 regular soldiers on Taiwan, maybe 10 times as many available as reserves. Plus radar, hydrophones, satellite photos, and lots of other stuff that didn't exist in 1944.
Could Taiwan be invaded? Sure. The place could be bombed flat and/or nuked prior to sending the troops in, which would make the entire point of taking the place (getting a reasonably modern, high-tech economy incorporated into the PRC) moot.
In short, it ain't easy. It never has been. If it was, it would have been done years ago.
and their staff is audited, bonded, and they have strict security policies. People make guarantees on certain things that can be held to them personally, and whenever possible designes are reviewed.
You can be sure if the military wants you to develop a chip for them, they will demand to see the designes, oversee fabrication, and inspect it any way they want to make sure it's doing things as specified.
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a friend and i were in the library at school checking out the site like all loyal /. fans do when we ran across this. im sure this isnt new...but it was hte first time ive noticed it. for a very left-wing anti-microsoft (bill gates is a fucking borg for heavensake)site, they sell out pretty easily. i was so dissapointed. its one thing to need to pay your bills and maybe have a little extra cash...but to undermine your core principals, the very foundation that your project is built on...thats just pathetic. even if you decide that ads are necessary, most of us can come to terms with that, but why microsoft? why undermine your purpose and value? needless to say i am very dissapointed. (btw...all ms advocate fags who are going to critisize my argument by making my misspellings obvious, get a fuckign clue and realize that my bad grammar/spelling doesnt change the fact of the truth. that being you suck.)
I know, right?
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Thank you!
And that's a big one.
Right. Who died and made Bruce Perens chairman of the Bureau Of Standard English? In fact, the USA doesn't even *have* a standard English, and if English were ever made the official language for voting and what-not, we would probably have to have such a thing. That's one of the strongest arguments against making English a legal requirement in certain settings. Make it a requirement, and we end up with the French situation where some beurocrat gets all in a snit because people are saying "Le Big Mac".
At any rate, "open source" is one way to say what Taiwan wants. "Open Source" with capital letters is the Open Source trademark as it were, and they're welcome to use it as a trademark (service mark?) as long as people understand that if it isn't capitalized it could mean something else. It's far more likely that the Taiwanese simply said "we want the source" and didn't use anything that translates nicely into "Open Source", "Shared Source", "Disclosed Source", "Free Software" or any other trade/service mark.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If you were getting more value for doing the work yourself, you would've already chosen that path.
They are stating they are NOT happy with the sources not being there so that their goverment can veryfy it.
They are stating that their country does not really want to trust all their IT infrastructure on a closed source monopolist running their business at the US and serving the US needs (confirmed with the DoJ-Microsoft honeymoon).
They are NOT saying they will make war, or take any legal action to do whatever Microsoft doesn't want to do with their propietary software.
This is clear, they are stating an opinion, and if Microsoft doesn't comply, maybe they will start embracing something else. It's in all their right for them to negotiate conditions, like taking a look at the sources.
If I where a goverment I'd rule out ANY OS that wasn't open source. Closed source applications are ok, as long as they don't use network resources.
Everything else should be open for scrutiny. And the case is not nonsense. The US goverment has seen and always sees the Microsoft sources, the military sees the sources (you may not be told this, but if you think they don't have access to it and an agreement then....well...).
It's not about a "product", it's about national security. Coutrnies are realizing Microsoft is a threat, and not just a balance of trade nuisance.
unfinished: (adj.)
because while its unlikely that anyone will ever see the source code in this case, do you really want to go blind?
Tierce
Who sponsors your feelings?
I hate it when people/countries/techies think they're entitled to source code. If I spent my time developing something, I wouldn't open the source, because it's MY WORK.
Gee, and so is Hong Kong and Shanghai, both within the mainland, although Shanghai has a skyscraper that compares in height to the Sears Tower. Anyway, if you were anything but a pessimistic arrogant activist, you would quickly dismiss the "totalitarian regime" part. For one, how the fuck do you keep track of 1.4 BILLION people?!! [insert rest of "china is not what you think it is argument] [insert personal attack on Kamel Jockey involving maternal parental units and farm animals]... etc..
Let's keep politics outta this one, dammit!
translated with babelfish ;-)
Note that babelfish does not seem to like big5 so I used the GB version. It's not gibberish, but it's not really english either. You can get the general idea though. I like the references to "primitive code". Perhaps they know more than they are saying?
Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/
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I haven't read the comments. I know that I probably will get a -5 Redundant for this, since probably EVERY single slashdot user thought this when they saw this article:
1. Want open source operating system? Use Linux! The Defenders of the GPL aren't going to call a military strike if the Chinese (Taiwanese?) government modifies the code and passes it down closed source.
2. Ask Microsoft to release source code? I doubt they would even release the source code of Hover (game which came on Windows 95 cds), let alone source code of windows. We are going to have OSX running on PCs, 4G wireless for $10/mo, 10 Terrabyte laptop HDs, full comprehensive voice recognition, holographic output displays, and yes, the Star Trek transporters before Microsoft releases source code for the hell of it to a country that ranks highest for software piracy.
Wow, think that up all by yourself?
why run from Vincenzo?
sounds like a ploy by the chinese to plan a cyber attack... f u china
One maybe Taiwan is using M$'s future refusal to their request as a good excuse to push an Open Source agenda (fingers crossed) ala Peru.
I would imagine that one of the major things holding microsoft back from opening their source to anyone is they don't want other people to see how messy the code is. For example has anyone let Visual Studio auto generate a C++ project? What a mess, I imagine that most of their source looks like that, also what would the free world think of finding other companies names in the header files. Ya know when BillG lifted someone else's source and just compiled it into ?
All the chinese text in the article is JPG. So much for fonts, encodings, Unicode and so on. How would translation engines wouldn't be able to recognize the text?
Here's a rough translation of the article, by hand. Feel free to point out any mistakes, it was done too rapidly. Note that according to the article, the government has already made this request to MS.
Reading the article as a whole, I think the talk about firewalls is a polite smoke screen and that the Taiwanese, like the Mainlanders, are really concerned about backdoors and such.
Government Asks MS To Open Source Code
Lin Shuling reporting from Taipei
On the eve of MS's submission of its administrative reconciliation plan to the Fair Trade Committee, the chairman of the Administrative Research Committee Lin Jiacheng stated that in order to increase administrative security and loosen monopoly, the Government has already requested MS to release its source code. But he emphasized that there's no connection between this request and the FTC proceeding. Asking MS to release its source code and promoting development of open-source software are two linch pins of government policy.
Lin, head of e-government planning, said that in addition to Taiwan, many other countries have recently asked MS to open its source code and he believes that MS is now making a full appraisal of these requests, as it must given the wave of these requests.
Lin emphasized that as open-source programming gives users the opportunity to access source code, government users could take advantage of this access to build firewalls, and thus create relatively safe protection for government data. But looking at MS's operating system now, government agencies don't have the source code and thus can't themselves properly design a firewall and increase data protection.
Lin also stated that since MS's operating system is relatively widely used by the government, the failure of MS to make its source code available is particularly disadvantageous.
Regarding MS's previous "copyright protection" excuse for not making its source code available, Lin noted that source code can be opened on many different levels and opening the source code of the entire operating system is just one level, opening just a part is another level. He emphasized that in view of operating needs, "asking MS to open its source code is very reasonable."
Lin believes that since IBM, HP, Shengyang, and other MS competitors are now actively developing Linux-based operating systems, government cannot as a matter of policy rely solely on one vendor, MS. Given the importance of safe-keeping its data, the government must act to protect itself.
As a related official pointed out, when source code is open, the user can modify and improve it directly, and thus good and cheap and secure Linux has made inroads into become an operating system for large government systems worldwide, especially in military and intelligence fields. The US Pentagon, Air Force, FAA and other agencies are now using Linux.
Lin Jiacheng believes that from a policy standpoint "asking MS to open its source code" and "promoting open-source software" are hand-in-hand measures, and government data systems can't rely on a single supplier. The relevant organ of the Administrative Yuan has already established a Guiding Committee On Open-Source Software with the goal that by 2007 at least 30 percent of public and commercial internet servers will use open-source software and 10 percent of PCs will run on open-source platforms.
Source: Zhongshi Dianzi Bao 2002-11-10
Back to source, closed source will no longer enjoy the market it once had (why pay for work twice, thrice, etc.?) Right now new, profitable economic models are replacing the out-moded failing models in use by Microsoft. Despite this month's multi-million dollar campaign of ads and astroturfing, with people's attention now on security and TCO, the bottom would drop out of Microsoft's market if the code were accessible, even despite illegally leveraging their desktop monopoly.
Microsoft has just fallen too far behind in technology. Microsoft dropped the ball in regards to the Internet and has frittered away the time it needed to catch up. Arguments against using Macintosh or Linux usually center on retraining issues. However, heavy retraining occurred when migrating between Win3.11, WinNT, Win2000, and - for the chumps - WinXP. So if you have to retrain anyway, then why not go with something easier to both use and maintain like Macintosh OS X or Mandrake/Redhat?
When you consider the bizarre nature of the service pack EULAs, the migration to Macintosh or Linux should be the obvious choice
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
This just in from Bangkok:
The government of Taiwan has asked Americans to eat less junk food, get more exercise and stop watching so much tv. The Taiwanese leaders also requested that politicians everywhere quit taking bribes and generally screwing the public over.
In other news, hell froze over today, with a nippy low of 27 degrees F, expected to drop into the high teens overnight.
Ummm... so the government of China says MS needs to open its source because it stops them from doing firewall stuff for Taiwan?
Taiwan is a separate country not owned by China, so what the hell does China have to say about anything? The headline should be CHINA asks MS to open its source. If the guy from China actually mentioned Taiwan, he was probably talking about how China has been itching to bomb the crap out of them and take it over for decades now.
Esperandi
No, becasue if you use the coce,you're committing a COPYRIGHT VIOLATION.
See, still illegal.
Taiwan can blackmail Microsoft by first publicly promising that they will enforce all Taiwanese computing products to have Linux drivers by law. Pretty soon Microsoft will arrange a ".IN visible source" project especially for Taiwan. Further, Bill Gates will give a contribution to Taiwanese orphans -- and the Linux drivers plan is forgotten.
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Microsoft may not be able to open its source due to legal ramifications. Anyone remember the zlib vulnerability? There is no telling how much more open source is contained in their code, nor how much code that may belong to others. By opening their code, they would open themselves to legal liability, not only with developers who may find some of their own code in there, but also the Justice Department for claims they made about modularity and other aspects of their operating systems. Secrecy is Microsoft's only ally.
Even if you had the source code. It's a mathematical imposibility.I can write a 34 character C function (searching for an even perfect number) and no man in this world can tell me with certainty if that 34 byte thingie ever stops or not.
"Thats just plain bullshit. This _why_ we have legal protection from copying ideas (or a certain level of protection, which is what this is all about.)"
I was saying that because the parent poster said: "WHY do we support the abject protection of intellectual 'property' in order to keep the market functioning when that goal of protection can be used to tamper with market forces?"
Note how we both agree that protection of ideas for people in order to make money off of these ideas is good (to do otherwise would stiffle the production of new ideas).
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
SirSlud was stating that asking the original provider (Microsoft) for features and maintenance was akin to the US Military having Boeing service all their planes. This was a somewhat reasonable premise, as the US Military would need to service their vehicles sometimes.
S/He then ranted on about how s/he could make a better OS, spouting off a rather good NiH quote: "Why the hell should I be forced into forking over more cash when I can just do the goddamn work myself."
This is why I stated that if the value (time, money, etc) of producing an OS was indeed greater than the value of buying a prepackaged OS, SirSlud would've already made one. I think went on to explain the cost/value relationships in software. I think you may be replying to a different thread entirely.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
... the Win source code to a part of the world where 90% of all software is pirated?
I'm not surprised that the Taiwanese would be up to stuff like this, and wouldn't put it past them to do such sheningans. I'm an American businessman in the import- export business, so as you might guess, my frequent travels take me to many places around the world, on every continent.
I wanted to share my experience in the "great" country of Taiwan.
So, I was in Hsinchu, Taiwan last August for about a week on business. A bit of background: Hsinchu is a "Science Park" that the TAiwan government set up to try and give foreigners the illusion that Taiwan really ISN'T a drab, overcrowded agarian state that's diplomatically isolated from the rest of the world. Here, rules are relaxed and technology is encouraged, not surppressed. Well, let me tell you this, if this is Taiwan's best, then I'd hate to see the worst.
Anyways, when I stepped off the train from Taipei (which was no paradise itself, as that place has gone down the shitter since the Americans left) I was shocked. The whole place smelled like a combination of vomit and dog shit that had been left out in the sun for a day or so. And it was probably BECAUSE there was vomit and dog shit all over. I almost retched, and I've certainly been in some sketchy places in my travels but NOTHING like this.
And do I need to mention Chou Tofu (stinky tofu), a staple of the Taiwanese diet? God, you can smell that shit from a mile away. They put tofu among rotting vegatbles, and they actually eat it afterwards.
Noise pollution is endemic. It doesn't help that their infernal language consists of abrupt rapid fire tones that is a cacophony for any human ear to bear. How do they speak and listen to that shit without going crazy all day long is beyond me.
Anyways, Taiwanese stink -- literally. There is no concept of personal hygiene whatsoever. Meetings with even top officials were hourlong sessions of having to endure hot sweaty bodies and rancid breath eminating from mouths missing a few teeth. Geez, at least use deodorant for crying out loud.
The hypocrisy, corruption, and double-standards from the highest levels of government on over are the norm at the same time Taiwan produces 90% of the stuff that goes into the world's PCs. Foreigners get charged as much as five times for transportation, lodging, food, and everything else.
Traffic is horrible. Rules are non-existent except for at traffic lights: red means to go fast, green means to go REALLY REALLY fast.
The Taiwanese people themselve are pretty apathetic and everyone just wants to get out of that hell hole, so you see students trying to score as high as possible on entrace exams, so they can get into a good college, and then to grad school in the US, and if they fail, with tragic results (Taiwan's suicide rate is among the highest in the developed world).
The whole country, in my assessment is a lost case. Even the cheap labor can be found in Southeast Asia or China.
Anyways, the one redeeming quality were the girls. I paid 1000 NT dollars (about $30 US) for a great fuck, with a 16 year old who seemed quite new and "unblemished" if you get my drift. Boy, was she tight, made all the right noises, sucked and fucked all night long and let me cum all over her. Much better than even the vaunted Thai whores, and worlds apart from anything in Las Vegas or in Europe. Best bargain I have EVER found in my life!
So yeah, screw the hell hole that's Taiwan. It's a lost cause of a country suspsended by a hollow facade of so-called new technology that's just show more than anything.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.