Slashdot Mirror
TurboTax DRM Writes to Your Boot Sector?!
ltwally writes "As reported on Slashdot (amongst other sites) recently, the latest version of TurboTax is laden with DRM software. Even worse, however, is that it apparently writes to your hard drive's boot-sector , as reported at Extreme Tech here. As I'm sure most Slashdotters already know, the boot-sector is often times used for silly things like boot-loaders and such. "
to my boot sector...I hope it's a really lovely story. Maybe a romance novel would be nice.
I came *this* close to installing TurboTax on my Mac via VirtualPC or Bochs (cheaper) and then I read the box closely.
"Will not work on the Macintosh Platform using Windows emulation software."
I took it back and used TaxAct instead. I nearly installed it on my fiancee's PC instead. Ick.
You have to be on some sort of crack to write to a person's boot sector. Period. That's just off limits.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Virii write to boot sector
DRM writes to boot sector
hmmmm...
My Windows partition crashed two years ago. And, to my surprise as it was frustrating at the time, I don't miss it very much.
.doc-files now are .sxw-files.
My
What smartarse decided to put registration data in such a volatile place such as the MBR. Heck, any program that performs low-level operations on your hard disk should be banned, because of the risks involved with writing blindly onto one area. Turbotax are treading shallow water, especially after their licencing 'policy'
Now I am defintely NOT doing my taxes...again.
CDilla's LMS does this too, although I'm not completely convinced it's the bootsector. Still, nothing short of a low level format clears it, so it probably is.
Resistance is futile. Reactance buggers it up.
Hmm seems to me like this product rather should be called Turbotax XP.
my sig
TurboTax's DRM software only modifies sector 33 of your boot-sector. Basically what this means is that for Windows only users, you're safe.
If, however, you use other boot-loaders or "alternative" OS's, you might be in for an unpleasant surprise as things suddenly stop booting. YIKES!.
Anyhoo.. just thought that I'd point out that any of you that just have to run TurboTax should be "safe" unless you run something non-M$.
/dev/random
Damnit, I was trying to decide between TurboTax and QuickTax and I got TurboTax because it was cheaper and seemed to do more. Now I KNOW it does more but I don't want to use it now! WTF as we as consumers supposed to do about this crap? DRM submarined in software that you don't know about until after you bought it?
-- iCEBaLM
It's times like these when I feel lucky that I've got a good buddy that's a tax guy...and I've got dirt on him.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Anybody know if this can be used with VMWare? DO virutalised IDE disks conform all the way down to these unused sectors?
Correct me if I'm wrong but most apps in NT4/2k/XP aren't allowed direct write access to disks or even hardware. Does this only affect win98 boxes?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Folks, the forms are no more complicated than the software. To the extent the forms are more complicated, the software is oversimplifying the law. Save yourself a few bucks and just fill in the forms by hand.
Why didn't you just get the Mac version? That would likely have worked.
The comments so far are pretty inane and clearly come from windows users.. any word on how it impacts a dual-boot box? does it render your lilo or grub setup useless? I would personally be very upset if it screwed up my boot setup, and reasonably so, I think. imho, hese kinds of things should raise the hackles of the tech community, and linux users in general enough to give the vendor some serious shit.
what does it do to wine?
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
This software does NOT write to your boot sector. It writes to sector 33 on the track which contiains the boot sector.
This is certainly a Bad Thing, but not nearly as bad as writing to the boot sector would be.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Just enable virus detection in the bios... Then nothing can write to the boot sectors without your permission!
a piece of software to remove the DRM in TurboTax - kinda like "insert your CD, run this program, turbotax is up and running"
The only thing is that someone would have to do it anonymously - or from outside the US to avoid violating the DMCA
(Actually, this sounds like a good ad for H&R Block...)
Just my 1040EZ's worth
RickTheWizKid
It looks like Turbotax programmers just had a sneaky idea on how to make it hard to crack their program. They just thought it was a cool idea, not thinking about the consequences.
Sure its not really a good idea and if lots of companies do that, it would lead to conflicts. Especially since 33 is a nice number, being in the middle. But is it really something we should be "afraid of" ?
The article had its worries about Tax software forgetting its licence just before you are done and have to send them off to the gov't. But that isn't too new with computers. Murphy's Law would apply regardless of what kind of copy protection that software has.
3DS Max like to keep it's registration information in the boot-sector and of course it's ONLY compatible with the Windows bootloaders.. This means that if you have a dual-boot system with Linux using GRUB to boot Windows, the moment you register 3DS Max from within your Windows install, your bootloader will be practically wiped out. If you reinstall the bootloader again, 3DS MAX will complain that you have to re-register and obviously, if you do so, your bootloader will be wiped yet again.
I can just imagine every piece of software writing its particular attempt to defeat piracy in our boot sectors; finally, we'd have a regular mosh-pit of games and apps regularly crashing our systems and giving virus-checkers fits of apoplexy. Bravo to Intuit for being a trendsetter .
Any idea whether turbo tax under win4lin or vmware, on a linux-only system, would get to the MBR? Would the bios setting that prevents boot sector access without a warning protect from this?
If you insist on using TurboTax, use their web-based vesion; it's alway current and no software gets installed on your PC.
Personally, even though I've been using TurboTax for over 10 years, I will be using a different tax preparerer this year. I find their association with this kind of DRM crap distastful.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
All in all, pretty painless as well as free...:)
Installer runs with Administrator access (most home users are by default in the Administrator group).
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
As I understand it, a program running as Administrator on NT can elevate its privileges to LocalSystem and do just about anything, such as write sectors to physical drives.
Will I retire or break 10K?
hm. i was thinking. would it make sense for the
i was thinking we could print up thousands of 3x4" flyers that point out the security hazards of turbotax (in layspeak), and then sneak around to OfficeMAX's and affix them to the point-of-sale display racks, or stuff them into boxes.
i don't know exactly what they would say that would get the message across correctly. "spyware inside", "or user beware: this program does bad things to your machine"... eh, i'm bad at slogans, but it seems like the people should know. and it wouldn't be to hard for a handful of people each major city get some bad press for intuit.
any ideas?
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Why didn't they just use a similar technique to what XP uses where you fingerprint the PC by using version strings and chipset codes then xor that with your serial number?
Hmmm...what does change when you move your hard drive from one PC to another?
I live in Tokyo III, and I'll go to work RIGHT AWAY. I will defeat DRM for the stupid Americans' tax program that has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh ree-taard
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
These guys are famous for doing sh* like this every year.
But that's not all. Recently The Register ran a story which talked about how a stolen tablet PC had been traced over the net. The security software installed on this notebook (Computrace) supposedly "involves a tamper resistant agent that resides on the hard disk of PCs. Even formatting a drive will not erase this agent."
Now, I for one doubt those claims (Partition Magic would surely be able to zap the software, and the software wouldn't run if Linux was installed etc) but if it is true then who knows what else could be written to inaccessible (by the user at least) parts of the hard-disk?
It gets worse. The Computrace software creates a backdoor in your system which allows Computrace (and anyone else who figures out how to use it) to silently delete files from your drive). It also uses cloaking software which "is silent and invisible and will not be detected by looking at the disk directory or running a utility that examines RAM."
Claims are also made that it can worm its way through firewalls. Big claims indeed (perhaps too big without some clarification... the devil's in the details) but if this software is sold to the public by a private firm, what the heck could Government departments install on our computers to track what we do?
Sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
Use their Web service instead of installing their software...
If you use a pirated copy of tax submission software, can you still declare it as an expense?
Yes, our new tax software does to your hard drive what the IRS is going to do to you!
Why not organize a flood of calls to their tech support by Slashdotters. Maybe this will send them the correct message.
I don't personally own it, so as far as I can see the only thing that would twart the effort is if you have to enter a registration/serial number before you can talk to a representative.
This is just crazy...it will just piss off their customers and is not even effective (in fact it is extremely easy to circumvent). If they do not prominently warn about this then it is criminal. People who have programs (e.g.: AV software) to stop this or replace their boot sector after TurboTax FUBAR it will not be able to use the software and othe people will have their machines ruined by it. Many mundane M$ W*nd*ze users have dual-boot or utilities in the boot sector. Basically it looks like a virus and quacks like a virus. We should treat it as such.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Three questions:
1) Does TurboTax for the Mac include any of this DRM nonsense?
2) What other tax preparation software is available for the Mac (OS X, please)?
3) Doesn't anyone else feel that "just use the web version" is NOT an option due to privacy concerns? (I don't know about you, but I sure don't want my private financial information stored on someone else's web server...)
Don't underestimate the power of The Source
I don't see why anyone should use this stuff - I've heard that some states are going to go to a web based form, and bypass all the tax software. That would be great; as tax payers (you pay for congresswhores to write this crap), you should demand tax code that is accessable and understandable to those without a 4 year degree in economics/accounting/tax law, and
For twenty some bucks, this software fits in the 'you get what you paid for' catagory. Don't use it. Do your own, or find an accountant.
Of course, there are lots of people that don't pay taxes, protesting the size of the tax code, taxation without representation, the fact that you're taxed about 800 times for the same thing or transaction, financing the newest "War on (Fill in Blank)" goverment cash cow, subsidies to multi-national corporations, and payments to future 'terrorists'. You could go that route.
It helps to have a congresswhore in your back pocket, though.
That's revisionism you're talking there, and the guy who once modded me down as Flamebait for saying a pocket sized spiral bound notebook was the best "PDA" I've ever had is going to be gunning for your ass.
When we play Solitare around here we use a $3000 machine, and don't you forget it.
KFG
My wife does our taxes. We have an LLC, really a microbusiness that does less than $30k/yr [this year it'll be $25k]. From that you knock off expenses, ebay fraud [paypal, please take a bow], and the like.
Anyhow, just doing minimum compliance with the law, no massively complicated deductions, you have to do things like calculate "minimum alternative taxes", and such... it's taken my wife since December, 2 hours or so each day, about 3 days a week... so I guess that would be 36 hours so far. She's still not done.
Yeah, she's doing it analog. I don't think turbo tax *would* help a whole lot, especially since a major part of her job is reading and rereading all the IRS documents to find out their new rules this year, and how she has to expense this, deduct that, cannot expense and *must* deduct t'other, *must* expense the third, or fill in a form explaining why she isn't expensing it, and so on and so forth.
I dunno. If you count the cost of her time as $20/hour, then without us owing anything, the cost of taxes would be $720 and counting.
Anyhow, lemme finish up with a link and a comment:
http://www.givemeliberty.org : absolutely right, legally correct based on written law, but it'd be incredibly stupid to join. Lots of our rules have nothing to do with law, if you get my drift. Better just to leave.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Use norton or other such apps to restore your preinstall MBR.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
I know this wont help you guys who are using a third party bootloader, but if you've got a standard MS thingie wouldn't fdisk /MBR
fix the problem?
So to use your software, I need to disable any virus scanners? That right there is a red flag if I ever saw one. Holy hell!
I'm all for , and understand, the need for them to try to protect themselves against piracy, but they are treading on dangerous ground with this.Someone read the EULA, does it cover them if your bootloader dies?
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
that said something like "TurboTax writes to boot sector"
In a past life, I managed a software product validation team. Nothing would have shipped past me with this in it. It's a bug. File a report. You do not need to be a registered user to file a bug report, it turns out.
This annoying DRM junk does not involve the boot sector. According to the actual article (which I actually read), they found it writing to track 0, sector 33.
Track 0, sector 0 is the boot sector. The partition table is stored in this sector. The rest of track 0 (sectors 1 through 63) is not officially used, so some DRM systems like to stash data there.
What makes this annoying is when you try to install another DRM-enabled product that also wants to write in the same place; after you install the second program, the first one will accuse you of being a pirate, and it will refuse to run anymore. Since there is no standard for using this space, its easy for two DRM systems to conflict with each other.
If there were a standard for using that space, presumably the DRM authors wouldn't want to use it! After all, someone would write a utility that showed you what programs were using that space, and for what... and then it wouldn't be obscure, and so it wouldn't be "secure" anymore. Feh.
I won't ever buy programs that pull stunts like this.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
...it's the "boot track" (warning: there is no such term).
That's still very bad, as the first track is reserved to boot-loader data and there is no standard designating "addresses" to this kind of data.
So, if all software companies decide to write data on this track, we are going to see a lot of collisions in a near future, affecting all users, not only those with dual booting configurations.
BTW, 1st track sector-based protections are much easier to crack. Why? What else would that low-level call/procedure do? Crack kiddies don't have to go all the way thru reverse engineering (what this registry access does? what this normal file writing does?), all they have to do is search for extremely different procedure calls.
Some applications we want to use are not going to be open source. TurboTax does a good job of preparing your tax's and making sure you don't screw up and get audited by the IRS. Plus, TurboTax is/was one of the most pirated applications out there.
The question I have is that, since it is pretty obvious that writing to the boot sector is a bad idea. So what should Intuit do?
Yah, but you aren't digital, so you can't use the DMCA.
...maybe it's just my opinion, but if at anytime I *don't* disable my anti-virus software, it's when a program tells me to. Particularly one that should have no business doing virus-like behavior.
This goes rigth up there with those trojans that cliam that it won't work "right" with firewalls/anti-virus/whatever active. If it does show up on your anti-virus scanner, take it back to the store and return it as being infected. Remember to note what anti-virus program you're running and version, in case they ask. And don't take "no" as in "no, there's no virus on it, disable your antivirus" or "no, must be your machine that's already infected" for an answer.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
it writes to the boot *track,* so it's not going to munge your partition table, but may well munge other important boot records.
Nothing belongs in that *track* other than boot information. Period.
KFG
With bios-protected boot sectors?
Some AMI bioses has Virus protect feature, that,
if turned on, disallows all writes to boot sector.
You cannot avoid that feature except turning it off in BIOS.
What this software will do?
(Really, I don't understand why and who use that TurboTAX, etc. Paid preparers are not so much expensive, but you have a other people opinion on the tax and an additional person to whom the IRS can speak).
like, by the article and stuff, it doesn't write to the MBR. It writes to sector 33 of the boot *track.*
The problem is that since the entire track is reserved for boot information, not just the sector holding your MBR, things like LILO and GRUB may be residing there as well.
Boot loaders are legitimate boot records. Software registration codes are not. They don't belong in the boot track, whether they write to the MBR or not.
KFG
Looks like once again that we have spent so much trying to protect our computers from the internet, that we forgot that sometimes the problems can come in shrink-wrapped packages.
Since it we have the ability to prevent a program communicating on a certain port, maybe we now need to have software that limits what a user space application can do, without it being granted explicitly by the user. Consider this a feature request for any OS out there.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
with a virus checker enabled, you probably shouldn't install it.
Preventing this sort of nonsense is what it's *intended* to prevent.
N'est pas?
KFG
NT uses a Hardware Abstraction Layer which should prevent any direct access to any hardware
Does the HAL prohibit only writes to the I/O registers, or does it also prohibit writes to disks other than through a file system?
In order to write a defragmenter for NT, Diskeeper had to write a kernel extension which would give them low level access to the disk.
How do you know that TurboTax doesn't install such an extension as well?
Will I retire or break 10K?
What's going on? I just loaded up slashdot and the top-left logo was replaced by a logo that says "The Fork In The Road", and the story button-icons were replaced with black/grey grids. It's back to normal now, but it looked like a hacker defacement.
/There are 10 types of people in this world; those who steal sigs and those don't
On MY bootsector resides a harddrive encryption program with the key material. If any silly program chooses to overwrite this, I am seriously fucked. There will be absolutely nothing left. Without the key material not a single sector is readable anymore. So thank god I do not use Turbo Tax.
All right, so I want to use s/w to file my taxes - this saves time for me
Then shouldn't we focus on writing some open source app which helps us file taxes. Maybe it will not get authorized to e-file, but at least it will allow me to enter data and get a print saving half the hassle.
But then the stupid govt. will keep changing rules every year and make us spend as much effort maintaining code...
I seriously ask the question, in the us, is your tax declaration private? (at least here, anyone can go to the tax office and check one another's declaration... seems rather sound in the case of a democracy..)
. . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
As to how the first 'virii' post that you replied to got moderated to +3 informative, I think you might want to look at your reason modifiers in you slashdot profile -- or register so that you have a set. I perfer my information unclouded. I saw this comment as 50% modded overrated and 50% informative for a neutral score.
Still I am beginning to see a weakness in anonymous moderation, even with subsequent meta-moderation.
All my previous sigs now look like this one, I wish they were permanetly recorded when used.
I wonder if the problem is that vmware's virtual BIOS won't allow you to scrozzle the boot sector?
(VMware is a great product, BTW -- it's a sort of meta-OS that lets you run multiple virtual machines inside one piece of hardware. I used it to host the International Nethack Tournament this year -- very convenient.)
I am sorry that it took us so long to respond to your e-mail. You expressed concern about how product activation will impede your ability to access your tax files in future years.
- If you reinstall TurboTax after October 15, 2003, you will not need to purchase a new product license. TurboTax 2002 products that currently require product activation will be activated free of charge, thus allowing anyone to install TurboTax on any computer without needing to purchase a product license. (Example: You activate TurboTax on your home computer and complete your taxes in March of 2003. The following December, you install TurboTax on a new computer. Because you installed TurboTax after October 15, you will not need to purchase a product license.)
- If you purchase a new computer or a new hard disk for your current computer, Intuit technical support agents can assist you in reinstalling and reactivating TurboTax at no additional cost.
- If you reformat your hard disk or replace your current operating system, in most cases reactivation will take place without you needing to contact Intuit.
- If you reinstall the same version of TurboTax on the same computer that it was previously activated on, you do not need to purchase a new product license.
- If you install TurboTax on another computer before October 16, 2003, you need to purchase a new product license only if you want to print from within TurboTax, electronically file, or save your tax return as a
.pdf file from that computer.
I hope this information answers your questions. If you would like to get more information about product activation, please see the Product Activation page at http://www.turbotaxsupport.com/default.asp?platfoYou are a valued customer and your opinion matters. If I can answer any additional concerns that you may have, please let me know.
Sincerely,
AnnabelG
Tax Development, TurboTax
Yeah, right.
And if you have an S or a C corp for you consultants out there, you have NO EXCUSE. No amount of coffe-sippin-while-reading-tax-books will replace the mountain of cash a good accountant will save you! The $200 investment is CHEAP! Get a good accountant, and let him do all the hard work and educate you on deductions, etc.
Which I wouldn't say is "most" people. Well, I guess everyone could file that one, but you might lose out on a few things like itemized deductions.
I'll just call up Cisco and tell them that their VPN client is virus infected. That would give them a good laugh.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
I installed TurboTax recently and this revelation explains a lot. I could install the program but it wouldn't run without admin priviliges. (this should have been a bit tip off) I noticed that it installed a bunch of spyware and the account I installed from became unstable. GRUB still works fine but my linux partition was no longer accessible.
I used think Intuit was ok but no more. I will not use TurboTax again. I'm stuck with Quicken for now but I will migrate off at the earliest opportunity. (unfortunately there isn't another application available to go to right now, even GNUcash) Upgrades will not be happening. If Intuit wants to screw with me they're only cutting their own throats.
Then it maybe is.
It doesn't matter if a program writes to sector 33 or 0, or even 500. It is NOT supposed to do that. It's just plain wrong.
I don't know where do they got the idea to basically take over my computer for their paranoia mindset. What they're telling you is THEIR property matters, yours don't. Sounds ridiculous now if you let them calculate your taxes for you. After all they can just wash their hands if something is wrong with your forms.
It's amazing how much the software industry can get away with nowadays. Buggy products, no problem. Destroying someone's data, no problem. The almighty DMCA can protect them. What about us?
So that we can guard against this in the future?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Let's just hope these folks don't start getting any new ideas...
My wife is an engineer, with a master's of science in Mechanical Engineering, and having had a job working for Newport News Shipbuilding; among other things she ran the Access databases coordinating the outfitting of the Double-Eagle double-hulled tankers. Her father is an accountant, and beyond what skills she already had, he additionally taught her how to do the books and taxes.
So it isn't that she's dumb. Rather, it is that Congress first, and then the the IRS, update the rules rather whimsically, and that forces you to read and reread their rules in a branched tree fashion.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
TaxAct is accurate and full of features. I've been using it for years (the paid version, which is still cheap). The UI is super slick and anybody's grandma could figure it out. Vote against DRM bullsiht like this with your wallet.
One simple rule for its versus it's
I read somewhere it wrote to sector 23, which puzzled me. I was like: and what if sector 23 is occupied by your FAT? Say bye bye DOS^H^H^HWindows. Interesting that campanies can make software like that...supposedly it installs under Windows, meaning that programs are actually _allowed_ to write to physical sectors, and even vital sectors, while Windows is running. Interesting, interesting...
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I explained that my system running Linux and Win2K would not boot and after re-running my bootloader, the system would start but TurboTax would not run.
Even if you don't actually own TurboTax (I infact used it for the first time this year) I would file a bug report. We all know what the symptoms and causes are and they're valid no matter who reports them.
We must all make a stand to demonstrate consumers dislike and resist silly measures like this. Especially when these measures damage our computers!
Why bother.
At least that's what it claims: you can enable an option to protect against boot sector viruses. When I have it enabled, I get a pop-up when trying to OS'es or boot loaders. But I don't know how reliable this option is.
I just sent this to public_relations@intuit.com, if other people do the same, InTuit will get the message that the upsets customers. No garauntee they will stop, but at least they'll no it upsets us.
7 3,881243, 00.asp
1 549232.shtm l?tid=185
"I'm a potential customer for TurboTax software. A recent discussion held at the Slashdot forum indicates that TurboTax is laden with DRM (Digital Rights Management) components, and even goes so far as to write to the boot sector of the hard drive. I wanted to know how InTuit responds to this. I can't support a company who would include such measures in their software. I understand the need to prevent piracy, but writing to the boot sector is something that only disk partitioning software and operating system installers should do. I'm eager to hear InTuits response on this matter, as it will be the deciding factor in whether I buy InTuit software.
Here are some links to the sites I am obtaining information from.
Original article claiming the action:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,39
Pursuant discussion on Slashdot:
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/02/16/
PS - I'm posting a copy of this to the Slashdot forum, and intend to forward the reply to Slashdot as well."
The technical reasons (such as making physical writes to the hard drive, etc) for not using this product are compelling, but I believe the legal and social reasons for avoiding it are even more compelling.
"Digital rights management" in this form essentially strips me of the right of first sale (the doctrine that makes it legal for video stores to rent out videos that they have purchased or for you to resell a book once you are done reading it). Once I purchase this software I should be free to do whatever I darn well please with it, *and* once I'm done with it, I should be free to sell it, give it away, or whatever I wish as long as I don't keep a copy for myself. By preventing any of these actions, "DRM" tramples on consumers' rights and should be resisted any without technical flaws that could render your computer unbootable.
I sure am glad I have procrastinated in doing my taxes... Looks like I'll be checking out Intuit's competition this year.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I didn't want to buy QuickTax (Canadian counterpart of TurboTax) this year because it too is laden with DRM stuff, like "C-dilla" which is installed behind your back.
I bought TaxWiz (basically the only other Canadian alternative for tax software), which *is* owned by Intuit, but doesn't install nasty stuff behind your back. While it *does* have the online registration, it's cheaper than QuickTax and works just as well (without the spyware hassle).
I bought TaxWiz for $28 (tax incl) online, and it was shipped to me in about 5 days; it's pretty good software. http://www.taxwiz.ca
Anyone knows if TaxCut makers are known for some dishonest practices. They bought CompuServe and tried to push it to people who came to H&R block. Hmmm...
You can make a product suggestion regarding this. Remember, keep it polite or they'll consider you a nut and ignore you.
1.) I just happen to have an inspiron 7500 with no screen (hinges broke off). Works fine when hooked to a CRT, though.
2.) It came with a Win98 license that I retained, but never used (it was a GNU/Linux box).
3.) Install legal copy of Win98
4.) Install copy of TurboTax
5.) Do taxes
6.) Pass laptop around to family and friends, who hook it up to their monitors and printers, but (as per the license) it is only installed on ONE machine. (The machine just happens to move around a lot...)
When I first heard about DRM on turbo tax, I got depressed and sent "whine-mail" on their website. One Joyce, from the Intuit "Executive Response Team" replied, and I responded again. I still haven't heard back:
r m=1&DocID=836r m=1
Joyce,
Thanks for the response -- let me tell you a little bit about my April 15,
2002:
The time - about 11:00 PM. I've completed my 1040 and related forms using
TurboTax on my main Windows 2000 computer (I have a home network, with
several computers connecting to the internet through a common router to a
cable modem). I go through the steps to file electronically, but
experience repeated failures, with a couple of different error
messages. I get on the live chat support and finally get through to an
attendant. I get some advice, then try again to no avail. Returning to
support I describe my setup a bit more. When the attendant learns that I
have a home network, he/she says that I'm more or less on my own. I try
making many different changes to the configuration of the Win2k computer,
including dialing up to the internet straight through a modem. No dice,
and no time to wait for another chat session with support.
The time is about 11:45 (and my blood pressure is rising
fast...). I uninstall TurboTax from the Win2k computer and install it on
my daughter's Win98 computer, transferring the
tax data file across the network. About 11:55, I try electronic filing
again, and it works! Without remembering or wishing to burden you with
the details, let me assure you that it appeared to be a Win2k related
problem, or at least a problem with the network set-up on the Win2k
machine. Blood pressure goes down, and I put the whole thing behind me.
Running that scenario again with product activation lands me in the
emergency room. I do appreciate the note, and I'm going to start my 2002
taxes soon. I'll revisit the product activation issue then.
Josh
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, JoyceC Support - [snip] wrote:
> Dear Mr. Hamilton,
>
> Thank you for your E-mail to Intuit. My name is Joyce with Intuit's
> Executive Response Team. I would like to respond to your concerns about
> using our product. By working with our customers, it is our intent to
> establish clear, identifiable solutions to your questions and concerns.
> First and foremost, I am sorry for the delay in responding to your comments.
> Second, I gather you are giving up on TurboTax because of concerns with the
> product activation this year.
>
> Let me share some facts about our product activation:
>
> * TurboTax 2002 includes a product activation process that ensures
> TurboTax is used in accordance with the TurboTax software license and
> services agreement.
>
> * Product activation ties printing and filing from the TurboTax
> federal product to a single computer, preventing unlicensed use of the
> product.
>
> * Privacy was a key consideration when implementing the Product
> Activation technology in TurboTax. Product activation is completely
> anonymous -- no personal information is transmitted to Intuit.
>
> * Product activation transfers nothing but a Product Key and Request
> Code. The Key and Code key are matched together and a confirmation is sent
> from Intuit that activates TurboTax on your computer.
>
> * Product activation does not monitor any activities on your computer
> nor will it prevent you from using your CD-R or CD-RW drives.
>
> * The functionality that manages the TurboTax product activation
> (Macrovision SafeCast(r)) can be deleted from your computer when you are
> done using TurboTax. The uninstall utility is available on our support site
> at
> http://www.turbotaxsupport.com/default.asp?platfo
>
> I hope this information answers your questions. If you would like to get
> more information about product activation, please see the Product Activation
> page at http://www.turbotaxsupport.com/default.asp?platfo
>
> &docid=815. You are a valued customer and your opinion matters. If I can
> answer any additional concerns that you may have, please let me know.
>
> Joyce
> Executive Response Team
> Intuit. Inc.
> [snip]
>
>
> In response to the following E-mail received:
>
> I'm sad to hear about your product activation scheme. I will not buy
> TurboTax this year (as I have for many years so far) because of it. What's
> depressing for me is that I think the product is so good, otherwise - that
> is, without the product activation, I would be 100% certain to buy and use
> TurboTax, but with it, I'm 100% certain *not* to.
who's moderating the meta-moderators?
Part of the problem is that even the professional income tax preparers get it wrong, though not entirely, and so we don't really trust the pros, much less software. We'd have to read it for ourselves, anyhow.
In the earlier years of our business, when we were in America, she'd typically spend a few days getting all the documentation together in a nice orderly format the way the HR-Block people, or the private income tax preparer [depending on who we used that year] liked it.
Then she'd go down, and give them the material, and spend a few hours taking them through it.
After a week and $400-$500, they'd give back a return for her to sign. She'd take it home, spend another 2-3 days, glance through it, find a few errors, and then pull out the documentation and the IRS rules to show them how they were wrong. Sometimes their mistake appeared to save us money [if caught, you lose money anyhow], sometimes it cost us money. But she'd always get it fixed, take it back, show them how they were wrong, let them re-prepare it, and then signed and submitted it.
Anyhow, if the pros can't get it right, I can't really say that we'd trust the software to get it right either -- and with the IRS, mistakes can be expensive.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I thought the US was one of the few countries to uphold the idea of click through licenses. If your country doesn't have these and software decides to purposely trash your boot area, do you not have the right to legal recompense for your wasted time repairing it? Isn't that just plain negligence?
I mean, if click-through licenses aren't legal, then the software makers must be liable for some sort of basic damages occurring due to this, right? It isn't like this is just a programming mistake. This is purposeful destruction of my personal property without my permission, assuming the shrinkwrapped-click-through license doesn't apply to me.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
What about if you install on XP when you are logged on as a user not an admin? Doesn't XP forbid lowlevel disc acess?
:)
At least it did when I used one
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
OT, I know.. but I had to say it. ;)
I've used it for the last 2 or 3 years, and have found it relatively painless (basically since I haven't been able to use 1040EZ anymore). I like the fact that it determines which forms need or don't need to be used (saving plenty of time and effort along the way).
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Can they legally shut down this discussion on slashdot just because we are talking about the intimate details of 'track 0, sector 33'? Now that we know this, the protection scheme is broken, anyone can write a crack for this program that simply writes the appropriate data on sector 33.
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
"Yeah I just bought one of those new 2 Terabyte drives with the 20 gig boot sector...."
Anybody else notice on the list of companies that use MacroVision included TransGaming?
Is this to help with Windows product emulation, or something more nefariuos?
Garg
Garg
Alumnus, Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters
real engrishe::virus, virii
(viruses is so grade 0)
fffttt i did my taxes over a year ago.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
How can ANY of us expect the hax0rs to behave themselves when Pillars of the System are behaving just as badly or worse?
Is it fascism yet?
I've never used their boxed software and for 3 or 4 years now have used their web software. it works great, remembers my details, and has a ton of useful features - and I think it is only $8-12.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Get This.
TurboTax also broke my DX8.1 install. Turns out, those fancy movies that come with it are Macrovision encoded. NT user? check your Services for a magical new service (I can't remember the name, I've long since ripped it a new one) which even if you disable it, running turbotax fires it right back up to automatic. Lord this gives me a new reason to get a full refund from them. How can one tell if their bootsector has some extra bits in it?
I had to really think about switching from TurboTax to TaxCut this year, having used TurboTax for close to 10 years. This all makes my decision to use TaxCut that much better.
I read somewhere that while there has been some backlash against Intuit for their inclusion of product activation, the overall effect says it all: revenues are up over last year.
Cry and moan and wail about how bad this is, but the bottom line makes another statement. Remember, the class of users who will read, object, and switch because of DRM is a rather small minority of users. John and Joan Q. Public will never realize that they are affected by DRM/closed source software, because they view the software simply as a product. They don't get the design drawings for their car or house (unless they build it new) and certainly have no idea what source code IS, much less want to have access to it.
Point being: my streak of TurboTax-aided returns is over. TaxCut was just as easy to use as TurboTax was, plus with all the different rebates that came with it, I got about $100 worth of software and e-filing services for $40.
As far as user trust goes, I agree that the trust works both ways and Intuit has broken that trust. I am allowing Intuit to process and pass on my financial data--data that identity thieves would LOVE to get their paws on--yet they don't trust me with their software?
SO long, Intuit, my money is going elsewhere.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I put of fileing until about 48 hours before the deadline. Sat down at my pc with the appropriate paperwork (p60 from my employer etc..)cursing my lack of forsight, less than an hour later I was watching tv and ordering take out (and most of that time was hunting through my badly organsied paperwork).I've dealt with filling in most of the Inland Revenue's forms (vat returns, corporation tax returns etc..) and this was properbly my most painless experience to date (apart from the ones where I was paying an accountant to do it.
Simple solution: Announce that a hidden virus has been found in TurboTax that writes to an unprotected of your harddrive producung unknown but potentially dangerous effects. The general publick goes bleary-eyed at "boot sector" but the word virus gets their attention.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
or some other emulator? Has anyone tried that? Will Turbo-Tax only screw up the virtual disk's MBR?
I want a refund since it wont install on a virtual machine.
I own MS-Windows legally, and i own ESX server legally..
I consider their product defective, so i want a refund, a class action law-suit, and out of this EULA that i never even had a chance to agree too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
A year ago I bought the then new Logitech dual pickup optical mouse and installed the drivers from the included CD. The install looked kind of suspicious so I ran ad-aware. It reported some kind of spyware components so I removed them. The system was clean before I installed the drivers.
This really blew my mind at the time. I can see someone who provides free software doing that using the excuse that they need to make money and pay the employees, etc. But spyware with a $49.99 USA mouse ! Jeez...............
The IRS (and state tax boards) should really provide tax forms in XML format. Furthermore, tax laws are a good place to start translating fuzzy legal language into clear mathematical and programmatic rules, and those rules should not be coded up by a bunch of private companies, they should be supplied by the IRS. Then, the function of tax software would be to be a user interface to the IRS-supplied XML forms and rules.
I use an OS that won't allow that sort of behavior by programs run by normal users.
A few lawsuits for system damage by SafeCast right now wouldn't hurt either.
So what is a good utility to inspect and clean all this crap off of boot sectors 1-63, even if it does make limited-time demos forget their earlier installs?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
So no, nothing more nefarious than making games work.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I think that should be "nitpicking smart-asses".
Don't thank me, thank Google Sets. :)
4 0FormT axes com
TaxACT
TurboTax
TaxCut
Taxslayer
Taxcut Deluxe
TurboTax Deluxe
HD Vest
E1040 com
TaxBrain
CompleteTax
e1065
TaxesByCPA
10
TaxLogic
FileSafe
eTax YourPace
EZTaxMachine
Tax Engine
AccuTax
TaxConnection
TaxGaga
FileYour
1040 net
Taxes1 com
Do yourselves a huge favor and use a accountant that knows what he is doing. I tried to use Turbo Tax in the past and it misses many things that a good tax accountant will not.
Got Code?
Of course, it doesn't work! So maybe someone at Inuit browses Slashdot. Ahahaha! Right! ---- Hi, I have just finished doing quite a bit of reading, both at Intuit.com and through other resources, about the copy protection method Intuit used on the recent version of TurboTax. While Intuit may be concerned about lost sales of TurboTax due to copying, I can cite at least one example of a lost sale due to this copy protection. Me. I had been purchasing and using TurboTax for 6 years but will do so no longer. As the copy protection Intuit used on TurboTax definitely DOES affect the use of my system by writing information in the boot sector area, I luckily have avoid the problem by not using the product. So whoever decided the use of the copy protection was a good idea should be held accountable, because I am sure sales will be detrimentally affected. And those numbers will be clear. As I am sure you are aware, most people do not bother writing to vendors to express displeasure about certain business practices. Hopefully, my note is merely one expression of a lot more silent ex-Intuit customers. Thank you. ----
More like:
13) Sell bill and letter to national news service who love to publish this kind of crap.
14) Profit!
Hey! That's my sig you're smoking there!
I find the greatest value of my accountant is that he pushes his clients to take all legal deductions. When you're on your own you might not feel as safe doing that. But you should get an accountant who specializes in your field of employment. Mine has many clients who are independent contractors or who mix 1099 and W2 jobs-- a regular accountant at H & R Block might not be familiar with all the rules / deductions which apply to this group.
whilst I sympathise with your sentiment there, if a company is successful in keeping low level writes secret, how will we know?
How many software packages have we bought in the past that have tried dumb things like that...?
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
If you can prove that this program fucks up a machine as a direct consequence of an intentional action (and you don't accidentally write to the boot sector), no EULA in the world will save them. Those clauses will probably protect them from exactly that - bugs, viruses, interruption (of services), errors or other program limitations. Deliberately writing to the boot sector doesn't fall under any of those categories. It doesn't even qualify as a limitation - it's a feature :p
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I seriously doubt I will be using any Intuit product ever again, due to their utter stupidity. This area is not for program data. It's not like the rest of your hard drive where programs can be scattered everywhere. The filesystem takes care of this..
,and they use a different part of it. But if you run more than one OS, and a non-MS bootloader such as lilo or Grub, then you will have undefined results, as these bootloaders likely store data on the same spot as TurboTax is.
Turbotax is writing it's data to your fucking boot sector, where a filesystem is non-existant. This is the reason that only one program should be there.
Sure, if you just run windows, which Intuit is assuming, there probably won't be a problem, as they know where MS stores it's boot sector data,
Last year's TurboTax had no such protection, and didn't even require a serial number. It was a good program and worked well. This year marks the end of my support for Intuit.
First, federal law requires me to keep tax records for a minimum period of time, and to produce them on demand. If I keep my tax records in Inuit's software, I cannot be reasonably certain that I will be able to produce them on demand. It seems to me that it might actually be a federal crime for me to use Intuit's software to keep any financial records of any kind. (IANAL)
Second, in my experience, people tend to see in others what they see in themselves. Intuit sees dishonesty in others. I think it would be very, very foolish to give sensitive financial data to a company that sees dishonesty in itself. I could be wrong, of course, but the risk is simply too great. Never make a bet you can't afford to lose.
If you haven't figured it out already, you have just been handed the chance to clobber TurboTax. This is like Coke adding broccoli flavoring to their cola. Offer TaxCut at 50% off to everyone that used TurboTax last year.
Also make sure you don't do the same as Intuit, and you just might be able to corner the tax software market.
Well, for the last three years I have bought and used TurboTax Home & Business (~$75), but given all the hoopla on their software I decided to switch. Now I use TurboTax ($~50). Vote with your dollars people. Don't let them compromise the stability of your system and let them trick you into beleiving their B.S software is worth all the hassle. I don't like having to beg a software company to use their title when I upgrade my box, which I do every couple of years. So I will not be buying TurboTax again.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
I filed using TurboTax on the web this year. It was $20 for the Fed + $15 for the state. Even did it under Linux with Galeon. Other than letting them become privvy to my financial info, is there any drawback to using their web-based product as opposed to their shrink-wrapped software? I figure I'd have to buy their latest every tax year anyway, so what's the point of getting the shrink-wrapped stuff at all (other than you don't need to be connected to the internet the entire time you're filling out the forms)?
Intuit has a massive FAQ here, linked directly off their front page. This is still a terrible way of doing business, but they aren't being as covert as people seem to think.
I'm curious as to whether or not the open source community has attempted to address this need in software? Are there any open source tax/financial software packages out there? There are several attempted replacements for MS Office and open source operating systems, graphics apps, audio, databases, etc., etc. What exists out there for replacing mainstream finance apps? If there isn't anything, wouldn't this be a great opening for an open source solution to step in? It seems to me that a lot of mainstream companies sit up and take notice of this kind of thing and pretty quickly start figuring out how to stop pissing off their customers. Maybe Intuit needs such a "threat" hanging over them to keep them in line.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
This story is old news, and I had purchased TaxCut for OSX in protest, but I must say that TaxCut was definitely the worst piece of junk I had ever installed on my Mac (well, the only pice of junk). It installs to the root by default instead of Applications, it crashed (!) a few times on me, and the help system will only work if IE is set as your default browser. And, some help pages are missing (!!). I returned it, got my money back, bought TurboTax for OS X, and won't look back. Sure, the Windows version sucks, but the OSX version works, doesn't require IE, doesn't crash, has built-in updates (TaxCut requires manual downloading and running of each patch -- yuck!). And I don't have to wait until the end of February to e-file and do California taxes on the Mac (!!!). I cannot emphasize how strongly I advise against TaxCut for OS X!
TaxCut just doesn't cut it (pardon the pun). First off, it gets confused and loses information. For example, at the end of my federal return it claimed I hadn't entered state wages (which I had). Then it said I had to enter my child's social security number to be eligible for schedule EIC. No, I don't have a child. Then, once I ignored those errors and attempted to go on to the state return, the program showed me a very interesting and technical error message regarding their regular expression parser class (i.e., RegularExpression::parse() or some such) and then simply died. Kudos, especially considering how many of their customers are programmers.
So, I tried it again. And again. And then I sent an email to their "support" alias because their support number was always busy (not to mention it's not toll-free). They replied 5 days later (!) saying that I had to uninstall and reinstall... blah, blah. Tried it. No joy.
Keep in mind I had all their updates, I have a rock-solid system with all patches and updates and so on.
Today I went to Turbotax.com, and filed my return online. It took me about 30 minutes. Yes, I gave my money to Intuit. Yes, I don't feel good about it. No, I'm not going to wait around for H&R Block to get crap figured out, sorry.
YMMV, of course, but I just wanted to share. H&R Block also has an online filing system that supposedly works OK.
how safe is the online version of this? i used it and i really liked it, very simple plus no software loaded on your pc. it saved all of forms in pdf, i printed the ones i needed and sent them in. i thought this was a reasonable alternative to installing and cost $24 for state and federal.
Excuse me, I have to call my broker and short Newport News Shipbuilding.
Imagine trying to do Real Work on a toy like MS Access.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This is a pattern, folks. Since C-dilla is a key based system, writing software to save, restore, or move cylinder 0 of your hard drive might be illegal under the DMCA. This has to be fought. Here's what I've done:
1. I wrote to Intuit telling them why I will not buy TurboTax ever again. They violated my trust. I will not trust them with my taxes again. I already stopped upgrading Quicken with Deluxe 2000 because it became noticably slower and because it is not available in a Linux version. Tell them you will buy TaxCut (if you plan to buy tax software again) next year and that this is why.
2. Join the EFF. I give them a small contribution every year.
3. Write your congressional delegation about your opposition to the DMCA. The existing laws are enough. The DMCA could be construed as making disk image backup software illegal!
Vote with your dollars. Intuit is never, EVER getting another dime from me.
If you feel the same way, great. But be sure to LET THEM KNOW.
Actually, I just bit the bullet and did my taxes using Mozilla 1.2.1 on GNU/Linux. It worked, except for the last step (print tax forms, which isn't required to finish) which requires an Acrobat plugin. No biggee-- I'll just do it next time I'm at a Windows computer.
I happen to own the company ( not VMware .. MY company ), so everything the company owns, I do.
No, its not a corporation, so don't give me flack about 'stockholders' or 'the board'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Oh no! I was hiding all of my financial information in Sector 33! Now I've installed TurboTax and it's all goooonnnnee!!!
and this was supposed to help me with my finances...
.
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
Any decent os (Win2k, WinXP in this case) should prevent any access to the boot sectors without authorization. I bet you would need to really bitch at linux or freebsd to let it do that crap. In MacOS X you definately would need authorization from the user.
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
At ExtremeTech, they've added a list of programs that use the Macrovision software. Autodesk and Borland appear to be the largest. Then there's a whole bunch more that use the SafeDisc technology.
... will be assimilated ... resistance is futile!
TT for the web is OK - I used it last year. Just pray that you don't need to get tech support. I don't have super-complicated taxes (mortgage, no kids, stock investments) and I ran into a case where it appeared to be missing a feature that was necessary for me to file my return. The online docs seem plentiful at first glance, but they lacked the level of detail I needed. I contacted support, and I was connected with someone who, despite my repeated insistance that I was using the web based product, gave me instructions that were for the desktop version. He knew NOTHING, and was clearly just going through scripts. I did get my tech support fee refunded , and I eventually figured out through trial and error how to do what I needed, but it was a painful experience.
I think you need to get a rabbies shot or something dude, you sound completely off your rocker.
-- iCEBaLM
It fucked up my f-prot installation.
On top of that, the one-click update just sat there, so I had to download the update program and run it manually. That farked up the turbotax installation entirely. It wouldn't even run anymore. It was in the task list, but nothing worked.
Uninstalled it and reinstalled it a few times, but it didn't help. Followed the instructions on the website completely, but no luck. I spent the entire day yesterday trying to get turbotax to work.
I *had* planned on getting my taxes done this weekend. That plan was shot to hell.
I uninstalled it, and took it back to Walmart today. They didn't give me a hassle over the fact that it had been opened. I was surprised but pleased about that, since the in2it web site refund page seems to require an order number.
I hope they ship it back rather than selling it to someone else, since the drm activation took place. That serial number won't work for anyone else now.
I will never purchase turbotax again. All this hassle for a stinking $20 one-use product. They might eliminate the 5-20% piracy that might have existed, but only at the cost of losing 60% of their sales.
In the end he had to get his mate to clone the CD so he could play the game - turns out his CD drive couldnt' read the copy protection properly and it was refusing to load.
Why is it that sometimes buying software causes you more hassle than getting a warez version? Doesn't seem right to me...
Sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
Exactly. Why would anyone buy a CD version and install it. The online version works great. I used it last year and this year. I went in at home and at work, all info help in one place and no crap installed on my computer. Online is the only way to go. I guess, unless you are too freaked out about the tax info being on a website.
No, you wouldn't, and not just because /. is a bunch of Linux zealots. The fact that he is using a Linux only computer *is* interesting, because most don't regard Linux as ready for that. Even most of the people on this site probably keep a Windows partition around for some things. Everyone knows you can run only Windows if you want; saying that would only be fishing for trouble.
It's an interesting comment. The other way is a valid troll.
'Sensible' is a curse word.
Ferris F. Fremont will infect you with slammer virii!!
I've used and loved Intuit's program, but I'm not using it this year. The only thing more painful than Federal Income Taxes is rebuilding a Windows Machine. I'd rather spend an hour getting the correct forms from the library and getting my wife to double check the calculations. It might be as easy to fix as sticking a Red Hat CD in and pointing to the correct partitions but I'm not taking the risk.
Microsoft is more painful than the Feds, no wonder they keep getting away with anti-trust violations and have displays in Post Offices!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Ah, here in the Incorporated States, such sentiments clearly mark you as a thief
Ah, but I don't live in the States .. which is perhaps why I don't get it...?
Just how are those with screwed computer supposed to post? That's a joke, laugh.
Can you give me a good reason for a silly userland program to write to the boot sector? It's a bad practice that can cause trouble. The chances might be 1000 to 1 against me having problems, but I'm not taking them. I've been using Turbo Tax for years. Not this year.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Don't use the software. Buy another competitors software that doesn't employ these bullshit methods. TaxCut by H&R Block works just as good and doesn't require all of the DRM crap that Intuit feels they need to use. I bought TurboTax last year at my wife's request. This year, they can kiss my ass goodbuy as a customer. If anyone from Intuit is reading Slashdot, all I have to say is: "FUCK U, assHOLES!"
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
Third declension nouns can also end in -us. Their (nominative) plurals are in -era or -ora.
Some examples:
genus -> genera
tempus -> tempora
corpus -> corpora
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
I went to the Intuit site and asked them if they were aware about what was going on here:
I also suggested that it might be a good thing if a head or three rolled . . .
blog
virii, troianes, vermesque, oh my... /brian
even for free!
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
Me quedo callado sobre tu uso de "teh" en tus quejas sobre "proper modern Engl ^H^H^H^H American"....
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
... and you need to buy a clue. I posted my opinion on this "tax software" and what people could do about this whole DRM issue. It's crap. It was crap before, now there's another reason to avoid it. don't buy it. Not needed. that's the solution. Wasn't me started the thread, but as like any other slashdot registered user, I have an option to post, and comment on it, and replied, as I do on some posts. My original reply wasn't a flame or troll,and I labeled it as such,I was short and to the point and serious, it's not needed,. in fact I'd go further and say it's a bad idea to get in the habit of using it, so YOU chose to post a smarmy ass juvenile reply, so you got one back, moron. It was you decided to jump the ante. I think you (or anyone else) shouldn't use it. That's the obvious solution that about anyone with common sense could see. this closed software, spyware, DRM, etc business at it's heart is about scamming money out of people, one of the better ways to not become a victim is to not buy or use or promote such "products". Because over and over again you can see what happens, but the main lesson never seems to sink in for some people. But, if you are more content with rube goldberg robot-ish solutions to problems,to use your computer for everything possible, even when it might not be the best tool for the job, then go for it! Hey, add some neon lights to your return as well, case mod it, change it to mp3 format, then to ogg, then to divx, whatever floats your boat.. Who cares? In my opinion it's better to RTFM, tax noob. In this case, actually do some reading research on the tax system and how it works, learn to do your own taxes, not use some one size fits no one adequately "solution" that's also spyware, but hey, free choice! Need a tax GUI set of training wheels to hold your hand? Fine! You want to trust these guys with something as important as this, when right off the bat you can see they are sneaky? Go for it! Use the DRM boot sector writing paid for piece of propietary spyware crap. Next year, buy another one. Year after that, buy another one. Keep on doing that. Write into slashdot crying in your beer about it, lather, rinse, repeat. Do it as long as you want to. I hope you enjoy it, really!
That's it for me on juvenile flame wars, it's been fun, you can have the last word.
I didn't see anything in the article describing when they started doing this, but my experience with TurboTax 2001 matches this too closely to be mere coincidence.
Last Spring I installed it on my dual boot machine and suddenly I couldn't boot into Linux. LILO would start up and die after printing "LI" to the screen. Reinstalling LILO didn't help, either, and I had to resort to a hackeyed system of going from the Windows bootloader to GRUB. Seeing as it's a computer I use for work, I wonder if they could be held legally responsible for the time lost and damage to my system?
I know it's not as cool as writing, say, a kernel patch or a first-person shooter, but there are a lot of programmers who happen to be US citizens as well. Why not contribute some time and build a tax package yourselves?
It would be great to have some tax advisors contribute some pro bono work to get the rules straight. Maybe some of Larry Lessig's friends?
What a perfect domain for an open-source project. After all, don't you want to be able to verify how your tax software is calculating your return?
Frankly I'm surprised that the IRS hasn't invested in a Web-form-based tax preparation method. Surely this would cut down on their paperwork and save them a bundle! (I mean, save you a bundle, it's your tax dollar, after all.)
fdisk /mbr
Call me a RMS-like fanatic, but if you're gonna use proprietary software, don't act all surprised when you get screwed.
-Rob
I think the point is that no would do that because no one outside America would attempt to break TurboTax's DRM because they would never need to use it! (insert US-centric slashdot rant here) If you're still confused, people in Eastern Europe don't pay our Uncle Sam income tax.
I mean, if you're going to break the law in umpteen countries by circumventing the copy protection, you might as well have a good reason! No amount of charity would make me touch that POS software with a 10 foot pole. (really, turbotax is the pits, its not even fun!)
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
My CD-RW drive quit working the very same day that I installed Turbo Tax (January 16th). It was 3 months old and barely used.
Yes, it was likely a simple hardware failure, but now I'm actually going to have to check into this...
I heard on the news that H&R Block's tax software is the most recommended, precisely because it is easier to install and costs less. What a concept!
In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
It's been a while, but I think running fdisk with the "/mbr" switch re-writes the master boot record. Might be handy if you want to get rid of anything there.
-ted
Last year I made the mistake of buying and installing TurboTax. It *forcibly* installed IE5.5 (no option, no way to interrupt it short of the reset button). This did all sorts of damage to my Win98 system, which so far I've been unable to entirely fix (despite drastic measures like IEradicator), plus IE5.5 proved ET-ware.
If you can't tell, I'm STILL pissed about it, and will probably continue to be pissed for the life of this machine (too complex to reinstall everything and too large for practical OS/app backups). Ya see, I used to reboot this machine only once or twice a month. Now it needs it every 3-4 days tops (and before every CD burn) due to resource leakage it did NOT have before.
That they've now pulled the oldfashioned trick of hiding shit in a reserved sector -- well, that doesn't surprise me, but it does give me yet another reason to rant against Intuit at every opportunity. So much for my many years of being a good customer, and recommending their software to all my clients. Never again.
I've had the fun of dealing with the residue of an old app that used the "fake a bad sector" trick as copy protection. It rendered the hard disk impossible to back up by normal means, and when the program hiccupped and died, it proved impossible to uninstall OR reinstall (bad sector trick on the floppy to tell it that it was still installed, so it refused to install. Well, maybe with a sector editor... but that strikes me as a trifle extreme for everyday use.)
The very pissed legit owner called the publisher, and found they'd gone tits-up and been sold to someone else, who would be happy to sell him an upgrade, but would NOT give him a new set of disks to replace those that were now screwed. Owner said fuck you very much and bought a competitor's product.
Here's a hint, Intuit: Copy protection of the "fuck with the user's hard disk" variety didn't work in the DOS era, and it won't work now -- it pisses off the very people you most want to make happy: repeat customers.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
State of California Penal Code 502, Paragraph C
...any person who commits
any of the following acts is guilty of a public offense:...
First of all, any competent software developer should know that arbitrarily writing to areas of a disk could potentially cause system failures. Just because the OS doesn't use a particular sector doesn't mean it's not used by something else. As the article indicated, there may be partition managers or security systems or any number of other things that use parts of a disk not normally occupied with useful information. Therefore, I don't think a developer could argue that they didn't know arbitrary disk writes could be damaging.Knowingly and without permission disrupts or causes the disruption of computer services or denies or causes the denial of computer services to an authorized user of a computer, computer system, or computer network.
Unless a software program informs the user it might modify "unused" areas of the disk causing other things to stop working, and obtains their permission to do so, it would seem to me that any damage caused by said modifications would be punishable under California Penal Code 502. Whether or not this sort of law exists in other jurisdictions is another story.
The undocumented VMWare I/O port communication mechanism can also be (and is) used to determine whether an application is running under VMWare. The relatively simple code to implement this was posted to the Honeypots security list.
My wife received one of these "special offers" for TurboTax Premier for Windows. We installed it, activated it online, and started our return.
Two weeks later, I wanted to continue where I left off. This time, the software would not start - but instead asked her to purchase the software again. There was a 1-800 number to call if we had previously paid, but we did not receive any useful feedback from there.
The only thing that had changed on her machine in the mean time was that I had replaced an older 6x CD-Writer with a newer 40x one. She is only running Windows 2000 on her machine, so the LILO boot sector issue does not apply.
End of story is that we got a refund for her copy, and instead I bought TurboTax for my Mac (OS X).
After reading this, next year we will be using different software - maybe H&R TaxCut or an online service.
That thingy called Linux also writes stuff to bootsectors I heard and now all you *NIXoids are happy with it, eh? And when any other program does that it's suddenly all that bad. Shows how fair you are! :)
I wonder which Borland product uses SafeDisc. I have used multiple Borland programming products, Delphi, CBuilder, JBuilder, Pro and Enterprise versions. None of them seems to be copy-protected.
Pretty much everybody who has ever pressed the line of tax protest that you describe, has done time for it. I think it was irresponsible of you not to mention that detail.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Not likely. Depends on your State, but, you agreed to the EULA -- the main part of the EULA that *IS* valid is that they don't give you any warranty. If this software ruins your life or breaks your computer or burns down your house, it's not Intuit's fault. If you didn't agree to that, your opportunity to do anything about it ended when you opened the package. There are plenty of clauses in software licenses that won't stand up to legal challenges (in the long run), but the disclaimer of warranty probably isn't one of them.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"60-Day Money-Back Guarantee: Try TurboTax software. If you're not satisfied, return it within 60 days of purchase with your dated receipt for a full refund."
So even those of you who already opened the box are covered! I recommend returning this nonsense at the first opportunity. If the salesman gives you any flack, just point them at this text on the box.
here's a lot of hype going around about the copy protection scheme in Turbotax. Much of it is overblown. But even ignoring the hype, Intuit has blown it big time.
I have the retail version 3dstudio max 5. My computer dual boots just fine. I never had any problems. Maybe they changed it for Version 5. Or maybe it is just my setup (I have two SCSI hard drives. One for windows and one for Linux.) So don't not buy 3d Studio Max just because you hear that it writes to the boot sector on Slashdot. If you are worried, it wont work, email discreet and ask.
NT has built in defrag abilities, Diskkeeper just wrote a front end.
checkout sysinternals to be free from bullshit.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Monkey-soft developed the governments gateway systems.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Wasn't that particular "innovation" "pioneered" by Microsoft?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Would the following DOS command fix the problem if you don't depend on LILO or another bootloader?
/mbr
fdisk
Ben
And it's a seriously whacked-out list.
Amongst other things they claim that Codemasters is Russian. It isn't, it's UK based, founded by Richard and David Darling. Also, the vast majority of games use SafeDisk or similar programs.
One of the applications for Bochs is anti-virus research, so it should be ideal also for programs that want to do dubious things.
See my journal, I write things there
Offtopic, but the latest extension isn't likely to expire anytime soon. When it was clear that 128 GB wasn't enough, Maxtor did the legwork on extending it again.
When you need more than 144 petabytes per drive then they'll change it again. But I suspect it'll be awhile.
I run most of my windows based apps in win4lin. There were huge complaints on the win4lin-users list about how TurboTax wouldn't work. And it turns out its because TT tries to write to the boot sector, and win4lin simply doesn't allow it. So, after seeing this, I used TaxCut, which didn't have any such problems.
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
What does it do if your hard disk has tracks of less than 34 sectors? Some do, you know...
Presumably it goes tits-up.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
The online tax services are just as good for 90% of people out there. most people can file free now. Plus you don't get left with outdated and useles software after April 15th.
Didn't the courts state that in the last few years?
Publishers include them anyway, in the hope of fooling people.
They intentionally write code to your boot sector (that, in certain cases, will damage your computer to the point of not booting), hide the fact, then try to hide behind a EULA.
IMO, the best way of stopping such practices in the future is establishing a legal precedent.
Sue the bastards for damages. Either a nice, juicy class-actiuon or a lot of individual ones. Preferrably in a jurisdiction that does not allow blanket disclaimers.
EULAs must die!
I really hope that some US govenment agency installs it on their computers and nails the bastards under:
US Criminal code, TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 47, Sec. 1030
Fraud and related activity in connection with computers
(a) Whoever -
[...]
(5) (A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
(B) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or
(C) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, causes damage;
In order to opt out of their email and phone lists, you have to send them an email (no checkboxes).
It's all moot in my case, though... it believes that my email address contains an invalid character, and won't accept it at all. I seem to recall someone else (eBay?) refusing addresses that contained a "+"... guess they don't like us using username-extensions to track *them*.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
and have previously used other Mac versions dating back to MacInTax '97 or so. Haven't installed or run it however. Anyone have any problems with it?
sulli
RTFJ.
I emailed their tech support to point out that they weren't accepting my email address because it was supposedly invalid, and I got this back (cut and pasted with quirks intact):
"Your email address as a + in it, characters such as though are not supported in our system."
That was the entirety of the response. No "Here's an alternative," nuthin'.
I have to admit to a bit of snippiness in my response to that, but at least I refrained from saying "Well, duh, wasn't that what *I* just told *you*? I wanted an answer, not a rephrasing of my question."
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
Pretty much everybody who has ever pressed the line of tax protest that you describe, has done time for it. I think it was irresponsible of you not to mention that detail.
... IT IS UPTO YOU AND THE STATES UNITED WITH YOU TO OPPOSE THIS EVIL ENTITY!
Yes, you are true. You must also recognize the scope of "doing time" for "violating" so-called "Internal Revenue Code" that you did not contractually agree to. When people are searched and seized by unlawful agents, YOU ALL MUST RECOGNIZE THESE UNLAWFUL AGENTS ARE "PERPETUATING AN UNLAWFULLY IMPLIED STATE OF WAR" AND
I know many people thrown in jail. Many who are not "citizens of the United States", neither "United States Citizens", neither "United States citizens", neither "Federal Persons". The "United States" (LLC, irresponsible federal corporation at large) maintanes a State of War and opposed whoever that lawfully does not submit to their pagan authorities.
Fishbowl, the fact that separates us from animals is our ability to recognize laws and make covenants with eachother as well as deities, both pagan and deity. The IRS both abuses and uses the institutions that recognize "Contract Law" for its advantage to conceal its Waring on us as either justified or legal (in a sense of reliance of "ignorance" on the general public).
When the agents come to you, you can either 1)do your best to avoid them, 2)submit to them and accept whatever marks they give you, 3)submit to them and expose their evil, 4)recognize their corruptness/evil and out-right oppose them based on well-defined criteria thus recognizing their State of War and attempt to destroy them.
I choose element "1" and element "4". It was nice knowing you...life is short.
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
The first straw was TT last year almost costing me serious cash (lucky for me I had an agency (actual people no less!) double check the TT results. TT was screwing me.) That marked the end fo TT for me, and this MBR tinkering is just more bad mojo. I don't know who's bright idea that was, but that guy should be shaved, sterilized, and destroyed.
Intuit has had this cavalier, we'll do what we wanna, attitude for at least 10 years.
I used to work on printer drivers at a certain unnamed large printer company. Intuit (Quicken) did some blatantly illegal manipulation and overwriting of the "print record." This was stored with a document to remember File/PageSetup options the user had chosen. There were clear definitions in the API on how the print record should be used, and in particular on how it should be translated when moving from one printer to another. (I.e., a laser printer with postscript has different settings than an inkjet, yet some items overlap and are shared by both.)
Anyway, Intuit's Quicken just basically did the wrong thing. They wrote their stuff over the top of what was there, wrote it incorrectly, and didn't even bother to execute the proper translation algorithms.
We, as the printer driver people, had to put in special code to _detect_ Quicken, and _clean up_ after their mess so that the rest of the world was happy.
To users, this appeared that the printer driver (before the special code) was screwing up. We got all the customer service calls complaining that "your printer doesn't work with Quicken."
In reality, Quicken was behaving badly and didn't work with the _entire_ printing system!
We repeatedly called this to Intuit's attention (with clear proof). They basically told us to go away, and they never did fix the problem.
After that, I resolved to stay away from Intuit products entirely. (Although I did use Quicken for a while after Managing Your Money was discontinued.)
It is no surprise for me to see Intuit still doing naughty stuff. From what I can tell, this seems to be a part of their corporate culture. My own personal approach is still to avoid Intuit products at all costs.
The reason why you pay upwards of $90 US for tax preparations is that they have a copy of your records and you can, for free, consult with them regarding any tax issues from the past that the IRS may ding you on.
If needed, they will represent you in any tax issues that may arise from said IRS dinging.
You're essentially paying for Tax Advice/Assistance insurance as well as Tax preparations services.
Dolemite
Save the World! Use a Quote!
I eliminated all trace of microsoft software from all my machines way back in december of 99...
it's certainly not been easy, but i've managed to do it. It was NOT a trivial task.
Redhat was the most complete distribution, and it didn't have so many bugs back then. It still only had KDE 1.x, StarOffice was the only usable office suite and it was huge and bulky and slow, driver support was awful..
the only redeeming features were the stability, and the GPL.
I've since graduated from redhat to slackware, and now linux is almost ready for the desktop. All the good hardware is supported, StarOffice 6/OpenOffice.org 1 run at a decent pace, KDE 3.1 is a great desktop environment. Konqueror is a really good browser.
The only thing i'm missing now is the games; winex is pretty good, but developers need to release some native apps.
Aparently samba is coming quite nicely too, but what would i know.. i've not had a windows machine to share files with in just over 3 years.
What? Me? Worry?
I didn't see any laws referenced in your post - just court decisions. And the judges work for the government which is collecting the money. Gee, I wonder why they found in favor of the government in each of those cases...
"Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Oddly, though Bill Gates has been railing against GNU's "viral license" for years now, I think he'd rather approve of this, genuinely viral, licensing.
Anyone know? If not now, possibly with Quicken 2004? This is the first time I've ever considered using MS Money. Damn.