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Apple Terminates Safari Seed Program
coolmacdude writes "This morning Safari beta v67 was leaked to the Internet. Because this is the third time it has happened (v62 and v64 were leaked), Apple has apparantly had enough and decided to terminate the seed program that provided unreleased beta verisons to selected developers. In a email sent to all developers and posted on Mike Wendland's blog, Apple says:
'Due to Safari 67 postings to the internet, we have closed the Safari Seed project. We know that the majority of you are not responsible for the leaks to the internet, and we sincerely appreciate your feedback, time and effort with this project.'"
Damn that Johnny Appleseed and his plan to propogate the Safari with Apple Trees... I knew it would never work!
-=SiGH=-
More testers = more bugs found = better product.
This is not violating any kind of license, like GPL? After all, Safari is Konqueror based. Or that will run when the final version is released?
I guess my subject line sums it up
Thats too bad that a few had to ruin it for everyone else. Giving out software like that is a privage, not your God given right. People should respect Apple's wishes and wait until the full release, but no. Now its too late.
given apple's history of siccing lawyers on sites that dare to post pics of the latest & greatest before they're officially unveiled, the only surprising thing is that it lasted this long...
Doesn't it make more sense for them to have as many testers as possible on pre-release builds? This way they find potential issues missed through the undoubtedly small QA team on the project.
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
I know that Apple probably has good reason not to make the various beta releases of Safari available to the public, but I think they are missing out on a good marketing opportunity here. These Safari releases are keeping everyone interested, or they're keeping me interested anyway. Plus, people can see the new features as they are implemented and maybe once a favorite feature is added, emails about getting that feature will reduce.
Smeghead every day of the week.
Who cares? It's just a browser that's going to be released for free in the future anyways. And it's based off of Free software at any rate.
I consider this to be a small ethical violation on the part of the individual who leaked the beta, at least compared to many other things. Nevertheless, Apple had placed their trust in a group of developers, and some jerk decided to violate that trust. However small of a violation that this may be, as compared to, say, murder, I would still like to see that individual publically flogged.
Part of the core rendering is based on Konqueror and is open source (and they do release the enhancements they make to that part back to the community). Everything else that is wrapped around it is not open source. So they have no requirement to let everybody see every little change they make there...and won't.
Why not just post the thing with a Talkback-like client and get feedback/bug reports from everybody? I know it is closed source but why not develop a Safari fan base by letting a community build around it. This is what Apple is best known for, right?
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
If you want to be on the bleeding edge use Camino nightly builds :)
t /
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/camino/nightly/lates
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
Surprisingly, not everyone follows the open source mantra. There are legitimate reasons for not wanting to provide constant releases. One is confusion among a less educated (some might also say intelligent) user base - people getting what is effectively a beta and don't know it end up bitching at Apple. This makes them look incompetent, and can cause problems for their image.
Apple has good reasons for wanting to keep their stuff under wraps until they ship. This doesn't make them wrong, unenlightened, or the enemy.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I hear they are good cloners. That's what Dex told me, anyhow.
How hard would it be for them to put in the developer builds a little code to pop up a splash screen everytime that safari loads that reminds the user that it is a developer, not end-user build unless they disable that in the preferences?
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
With the KHTML engine still undergoing internal tweaking for better DOM/CSS/etc support, I think Apple should look to the Mozilla project for their approach to browser development. Why not publicly release nightly betas, so users can post feedback on development as with BugZilla? Users don't expect the nightlies to be perfect, but it would keep the tweakers (and web designers like me) happy, and the developers would get a lot more feedback on their progress, whereas most casual users can happily download milestone releases.
Otherwise, the standards compliance of the browser will possibly be delayed (all the esoteric little implementation issues, especially with CSS and DHTML). After all, many eyeballs results in better code, especially with something as complex as a web browser.
<!-- DHTML / JavaScript menu, popup tooltip, Ajax scripts -->
They're pulling to the 1.3 mozilla trunk for the version of geko they embed in camino right now, and they introduced a whole slew of bugs when they did so. You might want to stick to the .7 release for a month or so unless you're a real masochist.
.7 release or safari, and just check the nightlies when something I'm interested in gets mentioned on bugzilla.
I used to use the Chimera nightly builds almost exclusively, but these days I stick to the
"The worst tyrannies were the ones where a governance required its own logic on every embedded node." - Vernor Vinge
So one could literally say that a few bad seeds ruined it for everyone else...
I browse Slashdot at +3, Funny
Without getting into the neverending "tabbed browsing" argument, I'll go out on a limb and say that these leaked builds will probably help Safari's marketshare in the long run. In browsing various Mac messageboards before and after v60 was leaked, I can tell you that many people dumped Camino the moment that tabs were discovered in Safari's debug menu. Had Safari's tabs been kept under wraps until the next public beta, Camino would have only matured and captured more users, which in the long run could've decreased the number of users using Safari. Of course this is all speculation. And I won't even get into the benefit that Apple realized by having a larger user base testing these builds.
In the interest of full or false disclosure (you decide), I should let you all know that I'm not using v64, which I did not find at macrumors, and it does not have tabbed browsing, which I donot find to be the final feature which makes Safari not kick ass on the mac.
Had I known that these were seeds that Apple didn't want released, I would of course have downloaded them and used them. I would, after all, want to spoil a good thing
Move the nots around to make the above true.
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
It's out? Thanks. Quick Google search. Got it. Love it.
Should I notify Apple that when you leave the tabs on all the time and "Open in tabs" a docked bookmark that the first tab always looks "active" (though the windowing for the tabs works fine)?
It's too bad Apple is taking this stance. They should understand, realize, and if they were smart: CAPITALIZE on that fact that there _is_ a reason why us lowly end users are clamoring for the latest builds of Safari.
It works. Like most Apple software it works very well -- even at the beta level. Yes, this is too bad...
But it can also be slow and bloated, where as Safari is fast and lean.
They should have done that trick where each developer gets a slightly different copy, possibly each having a different easter egg embedded inside. All they then have to do is download the version from the internet and trigger the easter egg to find out which copy was leaked and cut that developer off.
--
Dreamweaver Templates
What the hell are you talking about? I read messages at Macaddict, Macobserver, Macnn and the Apple support boards and I haven't seen any unusual spike in issues since 10.2.4? If you think they need more beta releases, say so, but don't fabricate shit?
What, you didn't see Attack of the Clones?
Why would anyone name it Camino, anyway.
And is there any real measurement that show Linux is on more desktops than Apple? I thougt not, you may go back to sleep now...
What's up with these developers? It's like they're desparately trying to be one of the "cool kids," leaking the code to the Internet. "Yippee!"
So, in an attempt at trying to upgrade their status to being picked only second to last in gym class, all the legitimate developers who respect agreements they've made have to suffer.
Nice going!
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
If you don't like Apple, that's all well and good, but why then do you feel the need to post or even click on an Apple story? I suppose you just couldn't let an Apple story go by without adding your insults. It's called trolling, and we don't need any more of it. Your opinion is valid, but posting this in an Apple story is just childish and counter-productive. Grow up, please.
- j
The leader of Apple is Steve Jobs who sees himself as a diety[sic] preaching Apple like a religion.
You mean "deity", silly troll.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
I think the parent is referring to the battery-killing-10.2.4 issue mentioned on Slashdot a week or so back.
Now, whether the parent is simply perpetuating the lie, or if Apple really did drop the ball is up to you to figure out.
Ack!
Thou dost preach the true gospel of Cupertino! The infidels who lack vision shall falter and Saint Jobs shall change the world! Blessed is the one true computer and blessed are the followers of the Church of Cupertino. Dammed are those who do not see the light and are left to dwell in the outer darkness of PeeCee use for all eternity! I'm proud to say that I first saw the light back in year 2 (1986 for the infidels) and have been a loyal follower ever since. Never have I been tempted to use the devil's instrument. I know that when my frail body fails I shall dwell in the house of Jobs forever.
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
-braxton
There is a big trade-off between getting a decent sized community to test a product and allowing a not-yet-debugged product out into the wild.
As a developer is it very valuable to have a willing group of people willing to test and feedback on not-yet-ready-for-market products. Unfortunately if these releases then get a wider distribution to people who don't understand that the app us a work in progress (as has happened with safari), any problems (which would be solved before an official release) reflect badly on both the product and the developer.
Given that the betas are being leaked, and Apple's reputation for quality of its products, I don't think they had any option but to cancel to program. I also welcome their move for other reasons:
As a web developer, one of the major issues I face is not just making a site compatible with the major browser releases (which in itself is a problem), but also with all the betas that are still being used. Many beta releases (or should have been betas) have quite significant bugs which are *very* difficult to work around. For example, I still see hits from people using betas of Netscape 4.
Once a pre-release product makes it into the wild, many of the initial users will continue it use it since 'it works for me'. Of course, if this browser doesn't work with a site due to bugs or incompatibilities in the browser, its the sites fault - from the users perspective - and my clients if the user complains. These almost-right products seem to persist almost forever.
He already covered "slow and bloated." He compared it to Linux. That means that, like Linux, it is slow and bloated.
I wonder if khtml group should stop allowing Apple to test betas as well
...reaps bitter harvest of forbidden fruit -Maya Angelou
1) They should have known that it would be available for download on the net as soon as they handed it out. If they didn't take that into account before starting the program they're idiots.
2) A lot of people justify Apple here by posting the standard shit about it being terrible for the public to see an unfinished product. This is wrong and silly. Most people who come across this type of thing and are willing to install a beta are a) warez people who aren't gonna buy it anyway, or b) early adopters who are itching to try it out and are going to buy it no matter what.
3) And finally some people are going to whine about the humanity of programmers having to see their beautiful program that they love like a child being stolen by the masses. Tell them to stop whining. The programmers are wage slaves. If the company earns more money because of massive warezing (that should be 'When the company inevitably earn more...') the programmers should shut up about the hurt to their souls and get back to fulfilling their contracts.
Software companies act like this because they are run by idiots. You have no clue of the true magnitude of the crass stupidity they are capable of.
And Apple just likes to throw temper tantrums. They probably lost more customers by canceling this program and making a stink than they would have lost by having betas escape into the wild.
Get it while it's hot:
s af ariv67.dmg
http://www.ewetel.net/~wolfgang.eichner/public/
Al Gore being added to Apple's board of directors.
its like they're TRYING to kill off their fan base...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Actually, depending on the posters true intent, it might not be trolling. People need to learn that everyone who is a rude dick is not a troll. To be a true troll takes lots of skill and insight into the human mind. To be a troll is to tow the hardest line of all. Bow down to any troll you encounter for they are truly the heirs to the one true throne of the Jedi! Ave Satanas! Shem-ham-forash!!
This made me laugh.
Dude, you preface your statement with a literal 'I'm about to talk out of my ass', and then of course you do so.
Apple is a failed monopoly
Every company but Microsoft is a failed monopoly. What is your point? Or, are monopolies good on Saturdays? I forget.
Your mightily aged Mac trolls are telling, too. Listen, you don't like it, that's fine. But you don't even know what the hell you're talking about by your own admission. So, seriously, why are you posting? You're nothing but noise in here. Karma-to-burn norwithstanding.
Blah blah blah, you love your PCs. Wonderful. Run along now.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
It would be trivial to add an embedded key to every copy that goes out, then you can trace the exact guy hwo is giving them out!
for the record: the ways in which the APSL does not meet the GNU's notion of "free" can be found here. I acknowledge that there are other licenses than the GPL and other open source organizations than GNU, but I think this particular analysis does quite a good job at laying out the issues.
I routinely troll in the flame alt.flame. groups and these ass clowns are not trolls, just dickweeds.
I've yet to see a real troll show up in here.
This coming from the KING of Trolling..
Maybe instead of discontinuing this program, Apple should have quietly started watermarking the private builds of Safari. A different watermark for each developer they give a sneak peak too. Then when it's leaked, they'll know who did it.
Of course, they may do this already, and just decide not to divulge that information... Just a thought anyway.
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
I tested v67 out and I think there was a reason Apple didn't want it out: Bugs. This thing has so many bugs... it freezes, you can't click/select anything sometimes (but you can still load pages), among other things...
So perhaps they simply didn't want to give a bad impression out, and don't want to be berraged by a million emails all pointing bugs out that they are most definitely aware of.
Best. Webhost. Ever. Dreamhost.
This is actually a disadvantage of the LGPL license to Apple. Because of the viral licensing in the LGPL, they have to have a compatible license for their browser components. They quite likely do identify each copy individually. The problem is that instead of saying, "Don't distribute or we'll sue your ass into the ground," they are forced to say, "Don't distribute or we won't give it to you again."
That happens a couple of times and it still gets out, they have no option but to not distribute if they want to preserve their versions between releases.
This just helps to show how software piracy/"leaking" trickles down and hurts everyone -- from the company, to the developers, to the beta testers, to Joe Average.
I think, therefore, I'm smarter than our president.
When the apple is ripe, it will fall. --Irish proverb
[
and one of my friends was just bitching about the lack of tabbed browsing in safari, oh well guess he is going to have to use Camino (tm) then.
I hate sigs.
Why not publicly release nightly betas, so users can post feedback on development as with BugZilla?
Quality expectations are different for Apple than from many other developers. I suspect this is at least part of the reason. Not to mention all the journalists that would descend upon such a thing to pick apart every release.
Users don't expect the nightlies to be perfect
Normal users don't, Mac users do. They take it personally if there's a bug in a piece of software -- like Apple is after them specifically.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Who is going to inherit your throne when you finally succumb to AIDS?
This the the equivalent of Jesus bitch smacking all the disciples 'cause Peter was a little to loud in his preaching. Hopefully one day Apple will realize fanatics who leak information about their products should be encouraged. After all, any press is good press, especially if you have a demonstrably inferior product.
-dameron
But they are still making beta's available to the public, just not every single beta. I imagine that their public beta releases (which seem to be based on more or less completing a new feature) will stay steady, just like they have been so far, and just like the X11 betas.
Far too many people here are confusing the seeding program with the public betas, and blowing this way out of proportion.
I was tempted to mention Darwin and I'm glad that you have. I'm glad that darwin for the x86 exists and I'm very glad that Apple has been wise enough to keep the source to it open.
The problem is that, so far at least, Darwin on the x86 has been plagued by a lack of driver support. The last time I played with it back in 2001 it wouldn't even run on motherboards that weren't based on the 440BX chipset. If Darwin is going to be anything other than a curiosity to members of the open source community who don't own macs, then this will have to change. If this has changed then I'll be very glad to hear it.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Is it really to hard to build in and unique ID. This is unix, you make a script that does it for you. Then you have that script mail the build to eveyone. They don't know and if it gets leaked blamo.
Ok you don't want to email eveyone. You can do the same with a down load. You have eveything to be linked but one file and that you compile with the ID. When someone logs on and downloads, it compiles that file and links the app, there it has the ID in it again.
It would be nice if the post gave some indication of what Safari was, or included some relevant links for background. Instead, the guy who wrote this post just assumes I know what he's talking about when he says "Safari".
The only Safari I know of is O'Reilly's online books service, but I somehow doubt that's related.
I think this 10.2.4 battery issue is a mass hallucination. I certainly haven't had any problems with my iBook battery under 10.2.4. You have to remember that Mac users aren't generally that technically-oriented and therefore tend to be rather superstitious about computers. It seems more likely that Apple had a manufacturing problem with their batteries, and it sounds like they're replacing them for people who have problems. Because 10.2.4 came out around the same time this problem surfaced people are blaming it instead. If it weren't for that they'd be saying the iMovie 3.0.2 update killed their battery, or the switchover to daylight savings time did it, etc.
many game developers take when using a seed program.
All seeds are digitally signed in one or more ways, so that when the seed is found on the internet, the guilty party can be identified and removed from the program.
Another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(This is meant as a legitimate question, since I know virtually nothing about Darwin.)
I can see a bunch of neat things in the windowmanager (and underlying graphics API), but is there anything particularly interesting about the base Darwin OS that would merit using it over, say, Linux or FreeBSD?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Not only the v62, 64 and 67 leaked out.
I saw v65 too.
Apple is a profitable and successful company, despite not following your advice. Whereas Be, who ditched their proprietary hardware and moved to the commodity x86 platform as you advise went straight down the tubes. I guess now we know why you're whining on Slashdot instead of running a computer company.
There are many Safari users who use those v62-v67. Why? Because they believe the new versions will resolve some issues.
Just give out the nightly builds like Chimera / Camino does. Those Safari users using the unreleased versions will enjoy the nightly builds and help fixing and finding the things that need still adjusting in Safari.
Anyone remembers Steve releasing Safari in MWSF? "Open source" ...
Linux is slow and bloated. That is why real developers, end users, and IT professionals use Microsoft products.
Give us a call when your not dual booting, thanks bye.
For any Apple seeding program, the people receiving the seeds are under NDA.
I just love the attitude that says that it's just OK to violate an NDA, but that the [L]GPL is sacrosanct and should never be violated.
Sheesh.
YUO=TEH SUCK!!!11!!
No, sharing stuff based on KDE is bad, very bad. Three smacks with a wet noodle for defying your NDA and you are fired. Be greatful, oh so greatful for people who ask you to purchase what others give freely out of a sense of real comunity. Everything is ruined now, Apple will have to stick to IE. This is too wierd, I must have misunderstood something.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Nowadays the only people using them are die-hards and people who got them in order to play with their version of Unix. I'd like to play with their unix too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a whole new computer to do it.
Interesting comment...I just bought an old PowerMac 7600/120 from eBay for exactly that purpose (ie: to play around with OS X). A few bucks on upgrades (a 500MHz G3 card from Sonnet and an additional 256MB of RAM, plus a 18GB Seagate Barracuda I had lying around, and an old Sony SCSI CD-RW drive), and the thing runs OS X pretty well. Of course I would have never paid the prices Apple wants to buy their equipment new. If Apple does OS X on Intel, Windows and Linux better watch out...
Dude, trolling the Jobs-worshipping Apple fundamentalist faithful is like shooting fish in a barrel. Try something more challenging :).
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
It may or may not conform to GNU's idea of 'free'... and we can argue back and forth about whether that's basically because GNU has always been determined to hate Apple, from day one, and will always be, no matter what Apple does.
But it doesn't matter, because he didn't say 'free'. Not as in beer, not as in speech, not as in political prisoners.
No, he said 'open source'. And, why lookie here... Apple's license is on the official list of 'open source licenses'.
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
So stop with the trashing already. He said it was open source, it is open source.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
A little knowledge of human nature and a smattering of statistics should tell you that this was almost guaranteed to happen, no matter what precautions (statutory or technological) were set against it.
Is Apple stupid for thinking this wouldn't happen, or did they plan on it?
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Be went down the tubes because for several reasons, but the switch to x86 was not one of them. Intel literally paid them to port their OS to the x86 and if they had not done so they would have gone out of business long before they did.
Be failed because of Linux. If Linux and would-be replacement products, such as FreeBSD, did not exist, then Be might have been more successful. The problem is that strong competition hurts weak competitors far more than it does strong ones. Linux is strong competition when it comes to the market for operating systems. Microsoft is hurting because of Linux, what does that say about companies that are not in Microsoft's position? Linux obliterated SCO, and if it wasn't for the fact that Sun sells big iron it would be hurting more than it already is because of Linux. IBM is pushing Linux on their big iron for the simple reason that IBM sells big iron, what OS is running on it is irrelevant to them. If hackers will create a top-notch commodity OS for them for free then they're going to laugh all the way to the bank. Sun will likely follow suit if they know what is good for them.
BeOS was a commercial desktop operating system, and that means its survival was dependent upon the applications that could be run on it. It lacked the applications that Windows has, and the niche applications that ran on it were not enough to sustain the company. The problem with niche products is that they MUST fulfill a specific requirement that other more popular or widely used products cannot. BeOS was unable to find such a role, or at least one that was significant enough to keep them afloat.
I was sorry to see them go. Just as I'll be sorry to see Apple go believe it or not. I started out on an Apple II+ and until the mid-80's 6502 based Apple's were all I used. I switched to PC's when EGA became popular and because the 286 was a speed demon compared to a 1 Mhz 6502. I didn't switch to the Mac because 1) I was a kid and couldn't afford one, and 2) they simply weren't expandable the way the PC was. The lack of expansion slots really hurt the early macs in my opinion. Apple had a golden opportunity back then to move to an open hardware platform, and they missed it. The Mac clones in mid 90's was a case of too little, too late. Being proprietary works for big iron, for now at least, but it doesn't work when you are competing with commodity hardware based upon an open standard.
People blame Microsoft for Apple's decline, but they're wrong. Microsoft didn't cripple Apple. Compaq did, Dell did, Gateway did. Every mom and pop PC chop shop and Taiwaneese producer of standard PC components did. Along the way they killed off Commodore, Atari, Sinclair, and a host of other companies whose names are lost to history. Microsoft merely rode the PC wave to the top. The only reason Apple survived back then was because they were the strongest producer of proprietary systems. The Mac was truly a killer computer back then. Even so, open standards always win in the end, even if they are technically inferior. A PC circa 1988 was a bad joke compared to the Mac-II. But because there was competition within the PC market continuous improvement were made at a greater rate than what Apple could do on its own.
The position Apple is in today is not one I would want to be in. They've got the PC hardware industry on one side, and the Linux movement on the other. They can't keep up with Intel and AMD, and if they were to become a pure OS/software company, Linux would eat them alive. They can't stay on their current hardware because Motorola and IBM gave up on the PPC as a desktop processor back when Apple axed CHRP. Neither company is going to pay to develop faster chips just for Apple's sake. That means that staying on PPC is staying on a sinking ship. The only way that Apple could make a successful transition to x86 is if they were able to create killer apps that only ran on OS-X. With even Microsoft's killer apps like Office and IE getting hit with open source alter
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
LOL!!
You're right of course but the entertainment value is just too much to pass up. I really should be nicer to them I guess, I mean I don't pick on Amiga die-hards, but then they don't act like Scientologists either.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
I'm more than happy to...
link
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
The site which distributes secret ones here is appleroom sanmonweb
Not to try to start an argument here, but believe me when I tell you that the OS and it's underpinnings have come a long, long way since 2001. I'm tempted to give it a try myself - gonna have to drag out the P III I've got laying about and see what happens :)
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
Well, not all Mac users are superstitious - I'm certainly not at least. Nor have I had any problems with the battery in my iBook - probably because I keep it tilted at a 15 degree angle and never use it after dark... :o)
Ack!
This is the first time i've heard of the project, does anyone have a description of what the project is all about?
Thanks in advance
"You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
For a beta that's really alpha or dev (I thought the definition of beta was "All features in, bug fixes only"), I don't really understand why only certain "beta" releases are acceptable for the general public to use.
Either it's a public "beta" or it's not. Which is it?
Jory
This sucks. I have received no significant updates. I have tons of problems with it. And people out there are getting seeds and leaking them?
Man, I feel boned.
I think Apple is bungling this project very badly.
Your 100% correct.
"Your 100% correct" what? C'mon, the suspense is killing me!
Is slashdot down, or have the editors diesd, because the last submission was on the 22nd.
Tragek
It would hurt MS on the desktop of home users - wait, no it wouldn't. Home users get their copy of Windows for all but free(tm) with the purchase of their PC.
All in all, the desktop monopoly doesn't do much for Microsoft, other than provide cheap training.
It certainly wouldn't hurt business. Companies who use it can either pay, or simply aren't important to Microsoft's sustained economic well-being.
Re: Free training. It's nice for MS, but ultimately, unnecessary. People will use what their boss instructs them to use, or they'll have a visit from Mr. Pink Slip.
Okay, a copy of the first tab-enabled seed magically found its way to my computer, and I played with it for awhile, but finally decided to stick with the official beta for my main browsing. Then, of course, I hear about this one, and it finds its way to my computer (amazing, really, its like my Mac reads my mind and downloads things I want without my permission!) But the Debug menu doesn't list tabbed browsing anymore!
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
The GPL says:
So, distributing a derivitave work of Konqueror under any restrictions beyond those in the GPL is a violation of the KDE folks copyrights.
What gives?
-Peter
Yeah, that's what I meant, should have been more specific.
-You may license this sig for only $6.99.
An alternative, given the fact that pre-release builds are frequent, is to time-limit each build to (say) a month-- that way, "it works for me" won't apply after that, because the user will *have* to upgrade.
Did you hear it passing coverage of the 'war on terror'. Stick it up your ass fuck face.
you whiney little bitch. Apple sucks ass and you need something to busy yourself with.
Damn you talk a lot...
Do you perhaps want to bring any new ideas to the table? or are you doing just fine rehashing the same old bullshit?
Someone bit a troll and got modded to 5... so sad, so sad.
If they buy a new computer whenever the next "must have" windows comes out they do.
Most of the ones I've installed for friends and family tends to live quite a lot longer, most ordinary home users aren't on the bleeding edge. You can usually run the next two "releases" (e.g. win95-98-me) until it gets impossible even for the unsavy home user.
I'd say the lock in at home is a major factor in the continued lock in at work. Not unlike how Nokia played their cards right by marketing to teen-agers, when Ericsson stayed with the corporate demographic. The sons and daugheters of the captains of industry ran around with cooler mobiles than their dads, a situation that ultimately couldn't (and didn't) last long.
Stefan Axelsson
If KHTML would be distributed exclusively under the GPL license, Apple would have to provide any code for released software that links against KHTML.
KHTML must be using LGPL (or at least something similar).
I think it is quite interesting that people recommend that Apple should have embedded watmermarks, unique identifcation, steganography and other stuff in the beta download to identify who leaked the copy.
Isn't this the same posters that normally oppose DRM? :-)
Can someone tell me if it's worth switching from FreeBSD to MacOS X? Most importantly, what will I lose, if anything? I have remote FreeBSD servers and want to know if it's viable to develop for them on MacOS X.
Not that there are many of either :-(
But that's what my server logs show.
Safari's front-end (lickability, bookmarking, etc)
You enjoy licking brushed metal? Oh, man...
Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
Why hasnt slashdot updated since 8:49p yesterday.. hehehe
This person got bitten by a troll, and tried to be a slashdot-traffic-cop by getting up on their soapbox about how "childish and counter-productive" the trolls were. Ummm, duh?
The problem with code leaks of betas from Apple is the fact that they are realeasing code with the Apple name on it. With the Apple name on the product means that should meet standards that apple wants to put on it product. So is unstable betas are released it could hurt the company because the unstable betas will seem like the product is not being improved from the stable betas. (which developers can understat that fact, some time to fix a problem you may have to break some code and refix it later). But unlike the *nix people. The Apple Comunity is a wider range of people and a lot of them understand what a beta is but if they keep getting newer betas and each newer beta has more bugs in it and not less. They will feel turned off from the product and when it is released they would probably not get it becuase they would be fed up with all the bugs in the beta version.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I'd be very disallusioned if I was the guy who went to the plate and tried to convince management that the seed program could work.
I can imagine going to my management and saying "let's make nightly builds available". Management, whose job is to protect the company, would be (naturally) cautious. But with convicing, perhaps a limited "seed" build to select developers would be an excellent first step.
"These are people who believe in Open Source and Apple", I'd argue.
But after this fiasco, clearly I'd be wrong. And my management would walk away with the idea that open source developers cannot be trusted in this fashion.
LGPL is viral, you utter moron. It allows linking of proprietary code. That's why they don't have to open source the whole browser. It still affects the terms of distribution. Let me explain for people like you who are very dumb.
Browser components that are modifications of LGPL source files or derived from LGPL sources are covered under the LGPL or a compatible source license. That covers "browser components" like I said, but not the whole browser.
Anything that is statically linked to LGPL code has to have a compatible distribution license. Idiots like you aren't allowed to stop the distribution of binaries generated from LGPL code. The same applies to any dynamically linked binaries that are packaged atomically. Just so it's clear, I mean atomically in the sense of indivisible, not some stupid mutation nonsense such as produced you.
Thus, even though the source code of parts of Apple's Safari browser are closed, they still can't restrict redistribution of it. So your very limited knowledge is completely inapplicable to the situation at hand.
dude, put the pipe down and step away.... "linux killed Be", I think not, Be was a desktop OS, linux wasn't even close then. And "Apple is going out of business", oh I've heard that one about a thousand times before... like every year for the last 15...
face it they are here to stay, they are the porsche of computers, while your playing with your little honda....
Give us a call when your not dual booting
That made no sense.
Some people make no sense.
while your playing with your little honda
That made no sense.
Some people make no sense.
:D
Anyone know where I can download a copy? *snicker*
-psy
What will they think of next? ;-)
Someone please tell me why its even newsworthy?
Or why apple would even care it was leaked?
Its just a browser.. Sheesh.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
When it a non-Beta version of Safari expected?
... and release it as a projectbuilder tarball.
;)
It'd make a great 'example' for coders to get familiar on, and Apple could take advantage of a large pool of folks who like browser innovations but also want to take advantage of OSXisms to make the most airwolf browser possible.
I mean, c'mon, what do they have in there that isn't a) trivial to do in Moz/Camino, or b) reliant on Aqua/Cocoa-proprietary APIs? They're not making money on it, they could even use the GPL MySQL-style, where they control the 'official' and 'officially-supported' product, giving credit but requiring unlimited license for inclusion in the official product.. Are they ashamed of the code quality, paranoid, or just short-sighted? (mercy, I HOPE they're not so dumb as to think they can _make money_ by _selling_ safari shrinkwrap?)
(not that _I've_ done much on OSX myself, but maybe it'd be easier to do more if there were better documentation and examples.. Or maybe I'm just fsckin lazy and unmotivated
ps: when will Apple update its HTML display frameworks to use the KHTML renderer across ALL HTML apps? The HTML widget that Sherlock uses chokes on obtuse and complicated CSS, which Safari even now can handle..
Okay, I think some of you need a little education on how Apple operates. /Applications/Safari.app/Content/MacOS/ and typing in the command 'strings Safari | grep June'. You will see two line in the binary that read "Safari Beta will expire on June 30, 2003.
First off, the whole beta program fro Safari is/was managed by a small team. Second, that team has a goal to release either the next public beta or the full 1.0 release by June 30th, 2003. You can verify this by opening up the terminal and navigating to
Safari Beta expired on June 30, 2003."
This means that they are on a deadline and have a lot of work to do. A lot of people who have posted here are suggesting that they should do MORE work and add easter eggs/stenographics/blah-blah/security tracking to the seeded releases. Now you tell me, does that sound like a good way to reach a deadline? Especially one that is hard coded into the binary of the public beta? Now you could argue that putting in an arbitrary deadline is a "bad idea" or whatever, but I think it's a great way to keep a project both on track and managable. Pressure to perform and all that rot.
The other thing a lot of people are apparently misguided in thinking is that Apple was naive about releasing these developer seeds. For this you have to understand a little bit about Apple's corporate culture and social philosophy. While you may not agree with it, I and a lot of others, think it's a great experiment and helps move our culture along. To understand thier philosophy, just look at Apple's public stance on music piracy. They have put in place some very basic and easily defeatable mechanisms with the iPod that prevents users from sharing music freely with thier iPod. They have not completely crippled your ability to share music, however they do put s little sticker on the iPod's that says "Don't steal music." They have also publicly stated in many debates about music piracy that it is a social problem, not a technological one, and that technology will not solve the issue. So in that statement, they have made reasonably clear that they don't really want to spend a lot of time working on something that they see as inevitable.
They also want to trust those that they sign up for the seed programs. If you can't trust your testers to give you good reliable feedback, you are wasting your time and effort and you won't get your project completed or your bug fixed.
Now the thing with the Safari seeds is that they gave the seed users 3 chances, basically 3 strikes, your out. After the 3rd strike, they pulled the program because they saw it as more detrimental that useful. I'm sure they started getting an unmanagable amount of negative feedback or duplicate bug reports, or even worse, useless ones because all these people that downloaded the seeds that were not part of the seed program probably started sending in incomplete bug reports or even worse, stupid things like "the thingy with the buttons, doesn't work on my puter, fix it now assholes", or something to that effect. This means that those managing the bug database and trying to glean useful information or even just track any real bugs now have to sift through thousands of shit reports. Needle in haystack time.
Any of this sound reasonable.
And finally, the most telling thing would be the reports on rumor sites. Apple hates rumor sites. They are counter productive to thier business (believe it or now, they are). If someone reads on a rumor site that such and such feature is missing/broken/doesn't work or whatever on a rumor site, and bases thier judgement on that rumor sites word (I know, stupid people, but it does happen, I have plenty of ad hom proof), they end up loosing a potential customer, or thier market image gets tarnished.
I don't know about most of you, but these are the reasons that I see Apple's decision to pull the plug as both necessary and smart on Apple's part. Argue all you want about "the way it should be" or whatever, but these are the realities of this business. If you
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
PPC is dying which is why Apple is abandoning it. PPC was always the 32 bit cut down version of the much better Power series. PPC software (running otherwise identical hardware to a Power machine) can run without much speed penalty on a Power machine.
Apple isn't going to die, though PPC will morph from those Power family computers running 32 bits to those Power computers that have a low enough cost/heat/electrical profiles to be put into a PC form factor.
At that point Apple's running virtually the same chips that IBM's using for a wide variety of very profitable systems and they'll do just fine in the chip wars.
Apple wouldn't use ISA/MCA etc because NuBus was better. When it ceased to be better, they switched to PCI for the cost savings. Ditto with SCSI/IDE and the ps2 connectors/ADB/USB hardware. Today's Apple strikes out on its own w/regard to hardware when it makes sense for their customers because the mainstream solution sucks. Firewire is an example of that. Firewire beats USB-1, Firewire II beats USB-2, Firewire is also shaping up to be a realistic competitor to very short-haul optical for clusters in the Firewire III/Firewire IV development line.
Face the truth, Apple's going to be going out of business for decades more to come. B-)
On the other hand, Safari is free to the end user. It is to promote a whole concept and idea of using a Mac. Movies & Music don't have a "unique, take this for free, and buy our better package to use the free thing we just gave you." kind of product.
Apple also makes iDVD, iMovie, iTunes all free with machine purchase (iTunes is free to all Mac Users). To me any app that is an Apple brand app should be polished & very stable. These builds are being seeded for developers & developers only. Apple wasallowing customization of Safari for those that wanted to do that. However, people were already getting there hopes up for tabbed browsing, when form what I have read, was actually a third party developed function, and that Apple really had no plans to release that function in the next build. Now, if they don't have it in, some will be disappointed.
I had posted a previous comment, when the weblog was published on SlashDot, about tabbed browsing coming to Safari. I made the case that features like that should be reserved for other browsers, so that Apple can allow differentiation, and others to keep market share. While minutely, tabbed browsing is also a function that will have to be explained and supported to the laymen. I personally find tabbed browsing confusing and I am a 19 year Apple user and Authorized Technician, and registered developer. Also, minutely, it adds code bloat.
To bring all this back together, Apple doesn't want DRM or even demanding control of the apps they release to developers and then to the public. They do want consistency and "polished" feel.
A developer signs a non disclosure agreement - I didn't sign any agreement with any of the file sharing services. Apple KNOWS which developers have Safari. Anyone they don't know about, got it from someone they DO know. The developer that gave the copy away is breaking non disclosure + breaking Apple's requirement for developers to follow appearance and coding guidelines. (Apple is (rightfully so) very strict on code bloat.)
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
Gotta love small minded people and their lack of ability to use complex words.
Or was that too complex for ya?
Crawl back under the pot infested rock you came from, no one really cares about you.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The Safari beta seed program had to stop sometime, because Apple surely wants users to pay for Safari in the 10.3 release of MacOS X. Public leaks is as good an excuse as any to stop now, with the added benefit that it helps elicit sympathy for Apple.
The Apple PR machine rolls on!
I was really hoping that the quality of Apple's UIs would get better especially since Bud Tribble came back to Apple. The whole upside down tab thing in Safari is unbelievable.
Since we aren't going to have an "official" public beta on which to provide feedback, we might as well say something now...
Hit the "bug" button or select "Report Bugs to Apple..." in the "Safari" menu.
And you still manage to type? Now, that is awesome!
"Argue all you want about "the way it should be" or whatever, but these are the realities of this business. If you think you can do it better, feel free to start up a company and do this yourself. Otherwise go play with the freely available Darwin code and contribute something useful instead of criticizing Apple for taking care of thier business interests (which, after all, is what they are there to do)."
I think, I will. I'll call it..."Microsoft"
Yeah, I understand that's a joke. Some people out there, unfortunately don't. Tha larger picture is not so funny at all.
You have the whole situation reversed. It's Apple's actions that are reprhensible not the developer. The developer did what comes naturally. Apple is working hard to limit our freedoms. It's not morally wrong to want to share useful things, it's morally wrong to make things that are useful and keep others from having them.
It's natural to want to share software. Software is as close a thing to ideas and speech as tangible object can come. Like an idea, it is easy to copy and costs the original owner nothing when others make use of it. Good software, like a catchy tune, is something people want to share.
Apple has not, "placed their trust in a group of developers." Apple extorted a promise from those developers in return for the chance to see and work on a beautiful thing. In return for that, these developers could not share their work or that of others. Because someone violated the master's will, Apple has cracked the whip. You don't need to use whips on people you trust, you need them for your slaves..
This is a minor incidence of something Apple has done before. All closed source software houses make this deal with their developers. Apple has gone out of it's way to shut down other people's independent work as well. Viewed from the free software perspective, this is nothing new or surprising, though it still stings to see it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Apple's software quality have been admirable but that should not and does not keep Apple from sharing. Apple has adopted a BSD core, which maintians it's excellence though openness. That Apple has adopted this software over their own shows the superiority of the open way, regardless of what they might say.
Mac [expect perfection]. They take it personally if there's a bug in a piece of software -- like Apple is after them specifically.
Once again, software quality is not a negator of freedom. Mac users, like all users of closed source comercial software, expect all of the details to be taken care of for them and the things they buy to work. It's entirely possible for the user to make up their own mind about relative stability of software. Debian's stable, unstable, and testing sections are an excellent example of how quality and freedom can co-exist. The stable release of Debian has fewer bugs than most comercial software. Users can now chose to load up certian unstable or even testing programs into a stable set up. Surely Apple can match that feat in a modular way with a silly browser. Denying your users even that basic freedom is a bad sign from Apple.
This is sad. Apple does have a wonderful platform. Their developers and designers have made real contributions. Why should such a talented company be so afraid to open up?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
...a break. There are plenty of reasons not to release open source software each time a line of code is changed. It may fix some critical bug, but it may also introduce a new, more catastrophic one. You don't want that getting out in the wild with any pretense of being an "official" release.
;-)
Most open source projects already allow access to CVS or developer "snapshots" with the various caveats in place. No need for more than this, and if a particular project doesn't wish to give such access, it is well within their rights to make that decision.
At least you're not arguing that all code should be freely available, as the trolls above are. You recognize the legitimacy of closed source software, and I commend you for that.
God Damn, somebody mod this the rest of the way up. It DESERVES it! Well said, man.
shut up fuckhead. you fuck. you are a know nothing apple zealot pig bitch. you got that? be it 1 day, 1 week, 1 year, you are always spouting and espousing BULLSHIT. you lie, you know nothing, you loser. you fat sexless pig. shut you fucking poor, parent fucking greasy pedophile fucking cakehole, assface.
Pak chooie unf !!!!!! Pak chooie unf unf unf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are the Apple Zealots We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are the Apple Zealots We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are the Apple Zealots We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
I am the pusher apple-robot I shove around the blind people We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
I am the shover apple-robot I push bread down their throats We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We are the Apple Zealots
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We are the Apple Zealots
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We protect you.
Apples have a terrible low power * We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks Apples has a terrible low power Do you have stairs in your house?
Do you have stairs in your house? We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
Pushing will protect you Pushing will protect you
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
That is incorrect Shoving will protect you Shoving will protect you
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
Do not trust the shover apple-robot
Shoving is the answer
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
Do not trust the pusher apple-robot
He is malfunctioning **
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are the Apple Zealots
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We are the Apple Zealots
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We protect you.
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
Shoving is the answer Humans must be shoved They must go down the stairs
You are mistaken Pushing is the answer Humans must be pushed They must go down the stairs
Please go stand by the stairs So I can protect you
Go stand by the stairs Steve Slobs is protected
Steve Slobs has gone down the stairs
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
From the terrible prospect of doing useful things
We are the Apple Zealots
Steve Slobs is protected Steve Slobs is protected At the bottom of the stairs
I am the pusher apple-robot Shoving is the answer I will shove Steve Slobs Outside into the snow
I am the shover apple-robot Pushing is the answer I will push snow On top of Steve Slobs
I am better than the pusher apple-robot I am superior I am better than the shover apple-robot He is inferior
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
Pushing is the answer Shoving is the answer I have pushed many humans I have shoved many more
The humans are protected Humans have gone down the stairs The humans are protected At the bottom of the stairs
We are the Apple Zealots
We are here to get ripped off and act like jerks
Our mission is complete
* "low power"; meaning not low power consumption, but rather low power as in fails to compete with any other CPU arch by any metric save one useless Altivec optimized Photoshop filter.
** " He is malfunctioning" Regarding the apple-robot, typically any and all Apple hardware, including the Apple-Robots sung about here, malfunction terribly, and erratically.
idiots like you tevis money? you are a unrepentant fuckwit.