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China Accelerates Mars Program
securitas writes "You read it correctly - Mars. China has announced it intends to accelerate its Mars program, using experience and expertise from its fledgling lunar program. Following China's proposed Moon missions, the first phase would send a Mars orbiter to examine and survey the Red Planet; the second phase will involve wheeled robotic probes like China's Mars Explorer roving vehicle prototype, used to collect and analyze rock samples; and the third phase will involve returning spacecraft from the planet and establishing a permanent automated base on Mars. This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light and clearly indicates that China plans to play with the big boys of Mars exploration."
Asia has it's representative in space exploration.
Go China!
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Before NASA's budget sees a major increase?
The People's Daily is a state-run paper that is usually full of articles about how much students and peasants love the government and how Falun Gong is a dangerous cult. Interesting if they are accelerating the program, but the source is pretty sketchy.
laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank
..whay can't they all work together?
Rocket science is easy. Neurosurgery, now *that's* difficult.
I think this is the best thing for the future of space exploration. Competition will lead to innovation, and hopefully to added funding. I think when the American population sees China making great progress towards exploring Mars, there will be more of a demand for American exploration.
but going by China's record on safety, I expect there's going to be some pretty fireworks.
First the moon, and now mars..
Could China possibly be trying to hype up its space program to scare other countries? I mean, it just seems kind of odd that all of the sudden, all of these stories about China and space are surfacing..
I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war
But who knows
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
This is the best news we've heard for NASA in a couple of decades. There's nothing like a little compeition with one of the 'evil empires' of the world to get our Congressmen in a spending mood.
We went to the Moon so that the USSR couldn't get there first, ne?
I'm not so sure this is just about getting to Mars and the Moon. I think China is actually attempting to do what we did to the soviet union and trying to get us to escalate in spending in order to quicken an economic collapse. I don't think we're ready for another "cold war" just yet.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light and clearly indicates that China plans to play with the big boys of Mars exploration.
It's not a race in any meaningful sense right now - China has only said it intends to do something that the US has already done, after all. It will become considerably more interesting if a non-NASA space agency - the Chinese, the Indians, the Europeans - announces that it fully intends to land and recover a manned Mars mission before NASA can. My money's on the Chinese - they're the ones with the most to prove, Europe is too apathetic and India cannot devote the resources to it that China's command economy can. As to whether they beat NASA... well that really boils down to the man in the White House. The US/Soviet Empire space race was all about trying to convince the nonaligned nations which political system was the best... it wasn't about scientists competing purely for prestige, it was a battle of national Will. If the US decides that it is going to be impressive enough to take the lead in getting to Mars, then the Chinese would face some stiff competition. Maybe if Russia had more money it could partner with ESA, make it a 3-way race, maybe Japan could join that consortium.
Yep, chances are they are just saying this to wind up the US. I'll bet this sort of thing is actually quite a long way down on their list of priorities. Even if they mean it, the cash could easily dry up before it gets that far. The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.
If the wheel hasn't been used in decades, maybe it could use a little reinventing.
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.
Maybe they read slashdot and are now trying to return it? :)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I hope China will work with NASA and ESO in a co-operative level instead of with a competitive nature. It will be a shameful waste of Earth's, humans' and economic resources to duplicate what NASA has done (i.e. those that have true scientific value) rather than a I-can-do-it-too. Also, with China's wages problems (mainly those in the agricultural industry) yet seeing results, why is it spending such insane sums of money in an area that will not bring tangible benefits to its people ans standard of living?
www.rexguo.com - Technologist + Designer
China has scrapped its mars program to sooner attain its goal of putting a human on the solar surface. Sources quoted as saying "take that you capatalist pigs."
China is light years away from launching Mars exploration programmes
I didn't know China was in a different solar system(!).
Would that be Alpha Centauri or Ursa Minor Beta..?
Ethics is what you say you do. Morals is what you actually do.
Sorry .. groan. I'm sure some news reporter already got to that one.
China: Hey USA, we're going to send stuff to moon! Neeneer
USA: Uhh, we've already done that
China: Hey, USA, we're going to send stuff to mars!! neeneer
USA: Right-o, Mr. Red
China seems to be all talk and no substance. Personally, it seems as if they are just trying to tell the rest of the world "Look, we can do it too!" but never actually doing it.
And I don't like how so many people consider a 'space-race' a good thing... the USSR/USA 'space-race' did speed up technological developement in that department, sure.. but the goal was for the totally wrong reason, and it happened wayyy too fast.
We're going to the moon! ( 10 years later ) We're on the moon, hurray! ( 5 years later ) Uhh, we're on the moon.. I want to go home
It seems like soon as we beat the USSR and reached our goal, being that there was nothing worthwhile for the government to invest in (winning a space race = instant world respect and nationality rises considerably, i guess) so it just went stagnant.
The government should have a program that helps and directs corporations getting into space directly, and showing them how a profit could be made... that's where the real ticket is
10. PROFIT!
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
They are not. They have nuclear weapons as well and this is what any exploration of near space is all about for the time being. It is a reminder that "we can loft some sh***" on your head when you least expect it.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
I wonder if they'll have the same track record as the US with regard to mars missions?
I only worry they'll go to Europa, against the old mandate, and start drilling. Once the shambling plant-thing comes up and kills them, then the US will be laughing... Yeah.
Thank you Arthur.
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
Seems like in some years we will call mars the red planet for several reasons....
Is it not evident, especially after these last few years (cliche, I know, but true nevertheless), that there will always be people who are simply NOT compatible, in any way?
It would be NICE if we could all just get along and work together... but it's simply not going to happen, at least not any time in the near future.
Judging from it's history, China doesn't have to spend as much money of safety devices and testing.
Chinese Official: You! Citizen #32185 have been lucky enough to be chosen to fly to Mars!
Citizen: Wh.. what?
CO: Put him in the cannon!
C: What's Mars?
CO: FIRE!
BOOM
Technician: Looks like this one didn't make it to orbit either.
CO: More gun powder! You! Citizen #32186 have been lucky...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
China's "expanding" space program consists primarily of plans and conjecture. Calling this is "space race" is more than a little silly.
China is using 30-40 year old Soviet technology in their attempt to accomplish things other nations accomplished 30-40 years ago. I'm happy they are trying, but this isn't much of a race.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
This may be finally what makes the US government sit up and take notice. Hopefully they will increase NASA funding so that they can finally send a manned mission to Mars. I'm sure the offshoot technology and the inspiration for such a mission would be well worth the cost. Even so skimming a little off the military funding and putting it into something valid such as space exploration is far better than killing people.
Tax at $1 a head on 1.5GP netts you a lot more spendable than $1 a head on 300MP.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Perhaps it's because the US is scaring them.
I ask you, what could the US possibly do to make the Chinese (and the rest of the world) even more interested in accelerating their space programs than attempting to pull crap like this ?
They're trying to find new homes for the 20 million people displaced by the new dam....
"the first phase would send a Mars orbiter to examine and survey the Red Planet; the second phase will involve wheeled robotic probes " Kind of like deja vu (spelled right?), but with out the metric>standard conversion problem.
One baseball team without any one to play with would get pretty boring. Same with Science, exploration, etc. The fact that China is trying to get to Mars is the best thing that can happen to space exploration.
If China beats US, then US will really wakeup, smell the coffee, and decide how to take the lead back.
If US beats China, it would mean a revitalized space program, and a much better chance for some real space technology. Solar Power Satellites may become a reallty, for example.
And if US and China ties in the race, it would be the time to raise the bar. How about a permanently manned Mars/Moon Station, extracting what we need from local resources. It just means that we would be that much closer to getting off this small rock in the unfashionable western spiral arm of the Mily Way. man kind gets closer to move off this hunk of rock permanently,
Maybe they'll build Bang-Bang?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
That was a great article, and I suggest you mod that post up, if anyone with mod points read this.
If the US did successfully take control of space in such a way, it could be really damaging to the human race in general... if we want to survive, we will (someday) have to get off this rock, and if the human race as a WHOLE doesn't work together on this goal, we are all doomed.
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
>> I don't think...NASA is going to even bother trying to beat China.
Ummm, NASA has already done everything China says it wants to do, at least 30 years ago. The Apollo missions were preceded by several unmanned missions (Surveyor, et al) throughout the 60's; the Viking landings on Mars in the 70's were preceded by Mariner missions. (The Soviets didn't pull off a manned lunar landing, but did land several unmanned mobile explorers on the lunar surface in the 70's.)
If this is a race, it finished a long time ago.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Good for them! But who will first find life in starfield HD70642? Wired.Com has this about life-possibilities in outer space. British astronomers say they found the first sun-like star with a giant gas planet in an orbit similar to Jupiter's, which leaves plenty of room for worlds like Earth and Mars.
Axe to Grind. In fact, does this Anon. Coward even have an axe left?
Logic, macros, and more
As long as humans get into space, I could care less under what flag or what government it is for, just as long as we get out there... and then resist having a war over it.
SecondPageMedia - Wha
wouldn't it be cheaper, quicker and simpler if china, india and the usa just had a good old-fashioned pissing contest instead?
They plan to have a man in space by the end of this year. We already know they have the capability for such missions since they've had some unmanned spacecrafts in orbit that were safely returned to earth. I believe they can do that. However, the step from that, to spaceshuttles, spacestations and lunar bases is a little bigger. They can do that, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than their timetable.
And to go to Mars, that's obviously just asking for trouble... When will we ever get interstellar spacetravel when we have such huge problems sending unmanned crafts around our own solar system, I wonder...
Slashdot isn't a democracy or even a government. I think that moderators just don't have much incentive in actually giving thoughtful moderation.
Logic, macros, and more
The truth of the matter is, they are soooooooooo far behind, how can you call it a race?
Very simple...
They dont have to engineer squat. 99.997% of all the engineering and testing is done for them and freely available.. or available for a price. I am sure the country formerly known as the USSR would gladly sell information on how to get your ass in space, to the moon, to mars, to uranus.. (Ok ok.. bad joke...) all they have to do is build. they have more computing power today than the United states had in 1989.. hell if they use linux and a correct implimentation they can have more computing power than the USA has right now.
The speed of advancement is very fast as the Chineese only have to traverse a very small part of the learning curve.
I think they can do it... but I do doubt that they will... China is known for 2 things.. Lots of population and propaganda... their government is really good at the propaganda part.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Its allready a red planet.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
FUCK the space program.
//I lived in China and am currently studying 'Chinese languages and cultures' at Leiden University.
China ought to use all that money and invest it in their economy, schools, health system, and anything else _but_ useless look-how-big-my-d1ck-is crap.
There are hundreds of millions of Chinese living a miserable life and finally their economy is steadily starting to improve. Finally they have a partyleader who actually tries to improve their living conditions, Hu. They should use this money for their country, not try to rival with the US.
I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war
...etc). China still depends a lot on other countries, and the officials understand that.
Conspiracy theory put aside, I think this is a little bit exagerated.
The Chinese government (most high level officials who can make major governmental decisions, at least) are mostly practical. You can't really find anyone who is ultra-conservative and xenophobic right now, not those who are in the position to make decisions.
The major concerns right now to push the economic development as fast as we can (I say we, as I'm Chinese and living in Shanghai), unless there's concern about uncontrollable inflation.
Most officials now just try to play nice, especially with the US (remember the plan crash incident? Bush was amazingly arrogant at the time, but China kinda backed down not to get the sino-us relation into bad water). A lot of people think the government is spineless. But I think the government made a lot of decisions that are right, given the current situations here (economic, political, scientific,
And this is a good thing.
Sure, China tries to develop other areas of expertise too, so what? What does that have to do with Cold War? Why do we have to think that all scientific research must have anything to do with military conspiracy, especially when it is done in China, India, or Russia?
Do you think only people in the US love peace? We all do too. Just give us a chance and I believe we can contribute a lot to the progress of humanity too, just we have done in the past.
I wasn't meaning to bash China, as I really hope they do go forward and SUCCEED with these missions. It just seems weird though.. Maybe China really plans on doing these things, i certainly don't know. I just have a gut feeling this is another political merry-go-round
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
Well, acceleration might get them there faster, but by accelerating the Chinese run the risk of overshooting Mars and flying off into the outer solar system. If they don't use Mars' gravity to brake properly, it seems kind of risky to play games like this just to get there a few weeks earlier.
;-P
How many km/second^2 are we talking about in acceleration anyways?
Oh wait, er... nevermind.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The BBC also has the story, as well as news of a glitch with Europe's Mars Exrpess.
Suck figs.
Yep. Not just "negation", but also other countries have seen the advantage that GPS guided weapons gives to the US, and are no doubt paying keen attention to the US's recently announced global reach weapons plans:
US to Develop High-speed Drone with Global Reach
What with the European Space Agency now in collaboration with the Russian's and China's newfound interest, it looks like the next space (weapons) race may be on.
Well, after China invaded Tibet Mao told some guys "hey, climb mount everest" (in chinese obviously). And in two years time they had done it, even though there was no tradition of mountain climbing before.
Setting up a permanent moon colony would be a feat.
If China stopped with the oppresion of Tibet, and stopped leaning on Tiawan like they do, then maybe I'd be a little more inclined to believe you when you say that China "wants peace".
I saw article on Russian website that their space agency just started recruiting people for future Mars missions. Variety of specialists, including geologists, needed. As opposite to their current programs, it won't be just military and military-related people.
Dude, Mission To Mars wasn't real.
(About) Everybody "wants peace". They just want it on their own terms and are willing to die (or kill) for it.
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.
don't you mean - " The US isn't exactly in a boom economy right now."
I am not a macro economist, but from my count, it is apparent that the only ones falling on hard times are the Iraqis, and the Americans....(okay, I may have left a few others off the list, purely for focus)
Up here in Canada, we have had steady growth and progress, even as a slight decline is 'predicted'in the near future. This goes without saying that many other nations are also in the same 'up and up'. (I believe China is one of them)
just my silly cents.
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Why am I not suprised by this article?
Obviously the US military needs this to stop terrorists - I mean I can see Al Queda buildng some evil doomsday device on the moon. Who do they think Bin Laden is? Dr Evil?
They've also built that big-ass hydro-electric dam, and I saw a claim for the world's largest steel arch bridge in Shanghai.
I think China might be over-compensating for something...
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Let us compare this to one of China's other big projects...The Three Gorges Dam.
"The president imposed a moratorium on reporting four aspects of the project: alluvial sediment buildup, the more than 100 cracks that have already appeared in the dam, pollution/environmental damage and the return of those who were displaced from the area by the project. The first three issues are not allowed because with the passage of time, China's science and technology will improve, so they can be solved. The last taboo is forbidden because of the threat that it poses to social unity and stability."
Ah yes, the damn is starting to have problems. Solution? The media is not allowed to mention these problems, and is 'encouraged' to only mention the good stuff.
This attitude worked somewhat for the Soviets, I'm not sure if it will work for China.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
First we try 100 bottle rocket to go to moon. Mars may require 1000 or more. You first volunteer. You die, we put you face on postage stamp.
What do you say?
I suggest you read Slashdot
Here I was thinking we were cool with our particle accelerators. Now China comes along with their Mars accelerator program. Damnit.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
I can draw up elaborate plans to go to Saturn or Uranus, do I have the money?
Well, I don't know about Saturn...
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
The russians had a good excuse, the first car was made by a guy called Benz, a German, the first jet powered military planes were made my the Luftwaffa in WWII, and the first effective submarines were the U boats used by Germans Navy in WWI, and we all know that Russians and Germans didn't get along, so it was an act of patriotism to screw up in everything German.
But seriously, the MIG 29s had the USAF pissing in their pants until they developed the F22, the Typhoon class submarines, although having one unfortunate accedent were generally good ships that could match any Ammerican offering, and anyway, at least they don't come up under civilian boats to show off. The Lada may suck, but they can be made very cheap, and the potato screwup was not as bad as the one the Irish had a while back.
Seriously, the Russians were very good at what they did, they just had a few mistakes experimenting to try and make the world better, something the American government has never had the balls to do.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Ah...but keep this in mind. In WWII Germany was flying around in jets and the US was behind them there. Yet for the most part, the US has held the premier position in modern jet technology (of course the EuroFighter just rocks).
The USSR was the first with their satelite in space. Again, you could have said "The US is so far behind", yet the US was the first to put someone on the moon. We could list a myriad of examples, from computing, steel-work, gun-powder use, and so forth...
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
Yeah... sounds a lot like the Reagan years and using defense spending to bankrupt other governments.
http://virgo.kodu.net/scifi/clarke/odyssey/Clarke, %20Arthur%20C.%20-%202061%20A%20Space%20Odyssey.ht m
-- Sig down
The phrase "too big for its boots" comes to mind.
The current administration seems to be of the opinion that the USA is supremely powerful. Now, only a fool would deny that the USA is in a powerful position at the moment, but it is not supremely powerful.
It is a dangerous state of affairs when the administration thinks that it no longer needs allies. They need to wake up to the fact that the USA is in the position it is in at the moment partly because its allies allowed it to get there, even helped it.
If the USA really does try to pull stunts like denying other countries access to space, then it might just find out what a difference friends can make. Believe me - Europe, China, India, Russia, Japan - they will react if the USA starts to act stupidly like this. We are already seeming some of the effect of this with collaboration between India and China, for instance.
I think the administration thinks that the rest of the world can't survive without it. They need to travel a bit more. They will that that, for instance, Europe isn't as different as the USA in terms of size and economy as they seem to think. They will also find that India and China aren't as backwards as they might imagine (for christsakes, many Slashdotters have lots jobs to people from these countries, and not just manual jobs but sophisticated white collar jobs).
The more the USA talks like this, the more its former allies are going to group together and start collaborating. The USA seems to like to impose sanctions and economic "punishments" on countries that don't collaborate with it at the moment. I wonder how the USA economy would take it if the national governments of places like Europe, Russia, Japan and China start selling their dollar reserves, or imposing import tarrifs on American goods. The USA may find that actually, it does need friends.
The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.
I think you are confusing the USA with the world.
I believe that the Chinese economy is currently growing at a rate of a couple of hundred percent a year. I think that counts as a boom economy, no?
Lucky you. Europe has been hurting for a while now. And the newly installed government of the Bank of England has just said it's now the UK's turn.
Collaborate for christ sakes... its the human race going to mars... not just the chinese, or the indian.. or the US.. sheesh...
- Jimbob
Not sure what you've been reading for the last few years, but the World economy isn't doing well.
1 31 04&d=101&h=240&f=56&dateformat=%25o%20%25B%20% 25Y
. 20 030628.uecon0628/BNStory/Front/
Japan's economy is tanking
"Japan's Economy May Shrink in 2nd Qtr Amid Rising Pessimism"
South Korea's economic growth is down to 1/2 of what it was after the frst Asian economic crisis.
http://www.eubusiness.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=1
The EU's economy is worse off than the US economy.
"Just as the US economy shows signs of a bounce following the Iraq conflict, Europe's appears headed for the quicksand.
In recession-hit Germany, the biggest of the 12 single-currency members, a total of 9,747 companies went bust in the three months of this year, a rise of 9.4 percent from the same period of 2002. "
"In France, the second-biggest euro economy, the official statistics institute INSEE predicted that 2003 growth would be the lowest in 10 years at just 0.8 percent."
Don't be too sure of Canada's economy, it's starting to waver.
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM
"Economist Ted Carmichael of J.P. Morgan Securities Canada Inc. immediately revised his estimate of second-quarter activity from a forecast of no growth to one in which the economy contracted at an annual rate of 1 per cent, a far cry from the 2.4-per-cent growth of the first quarter."
The United States still is the strongest economy in the world. The US and China are the major industrial contries with the best growth. China at 6-7% and the US at 2-4%
Considering the fact that they're using a knock-off of Russian technology and still haven't had a manned launch in the twenty-five year existence of their manned space program, I'd say that calling this a "race" is almost as much of a joke as calling what they're doing a "space program". Imagine this: It's 1920. The country of Florin announces that it is going to produce a manned aircraft. By 1945 they have made several unmanned test flights of an aircraft based on a Curtiss biplane. The King of Florin announces that they're going to start a commecial air service to rival anyone elses. Would you really take them seriously? I wouldn't!
"Well Ranger Brad, I'm a scientist. I don't believe in anything." - Dr. Roger Fleming
I think that space is just another strategic goal that countries are going to compete over, and I don't hold out much hope that the "let's all work together" rallying cry is going to be heeded.
Space is far too important from a strategic military perspective for countries to ignore it. Big changes are afoot in military tactics, and GPS-enabled precision weapons are at the core of it. Look at the recent Iraq war, where precision bombs were able to replace some of the slow-moving and cumbersome artillery, and I think we get an idea of where things are headed. Add in spy satellite technology, and proliferation of ballistic missiles (and the consequent anti-missile systems), and you can bet that countries are going to invest heavily in the defense of their space assets.
And I'm not just talking about the US... SOMEONE is going to take the lead in space militarization. For DEFENSIVE purposes only at first, I'm sure. And I'm willing to bet that, in our lifetimes, some countries will start to back away from the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, once the competition starts to heat up...
Like it or not, I think a quick scan of the history books teaches us that if a technological innovation yields a military advantage, someone is going to take it. And personally, I think it's dangerous to ignore that fact.
But first we have to convince them to have some of their labs use English units.
Behold the riant ape! Beware, his crooked thumbs!
More than the MiG-29, it was the Su-27 that was the most capable air superiority fighter around, till the F22 (which is years away from deployment). The MiG-21 is still being upgraded and used by air forces, 30 years after it first came out. The B-52 is probably the only American plane with that kind of longevity. Speaking of which, ever heard of the Tu-160? The doomsday bomber? 4x as powerful as a B-1B, carries only ballastic missiles. How about the Mi-26? The largest and most powerful military/civilian helicopter?
Yeah, the Russians sure were backwards in military planes.
*slaps head* GOVERNOR of the Bank of England. Duh.
I meant also to say that the pundits keep referring to a *global* economic slowdown, so I don't think it's just a few rich countries.
Remember that when we stop buying, the "developing" nations have no-one left to sell to.
I thought all nations were going to chip in on space exploration? Now, it seems like we'll have another race. That's a lot of wasted resources. Imagine the amount of double work that will need to be performed!
Stop the brainwash
Right. If the Nazis won the war we probably wouldn't have gotten into space.
Now if you're going to criminalize devlopers of rocketry, then who *can* get into space with a clear conscience?
SecondPageMedia - Wha
China has sent up how many men.... ummmm ZERO. Personally I don't hire someone who has never worked with a PC to work as a programmer. Do you honestly think I'm going to bet on a country that has yet to send a man into space to figure out how to get a man on Mars? But beyond all of this. Who gives a flying F$%& if they do manage to make it onto Mars. They are still left with a starving country. How does launching a mission to Mars help to feed their population. It would really be nice to see them figure out their problems that they have back here on Earth first before they look towards the stars. (And that goes for just about every country).
-Cnik
"This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light..."
There is no China-USA space race. Middle America has made it very clear that they do not care about fluff like expensive space programs when the government can instead provide them miniscule tax breaks and 24/7 war coverage. The horrendous mismanagement of NASA funding has become an embarassment to long-time memebers of the Congress, who would rather just sweep the whole idea under the rug and avoid drawing attention to an aging shuttle fleet that they were promising to replace in the 1980s.
America is no longer in a space race with anything other than the financial mismanagement that threatens to eventually kill manned flight entirely.
As per usual, when an article appears on slashdot about an achievment made or to be made in a foreign country, be it in Europe, India or China, all the worms crawl out of the slashdot woodwork to have their day making racist and/or stupid remarks about said country, generally only showing their lack of knowledge about that country.
I think that many outside of China don't realise something that China's less than democratic system permits which wold be nigh on impossible in the USA: Long term commitment to a project.
In the USA the government gets elected every 4 years and with luck a single administration can stay in power for 8 years. What this means is that no American administration can really plan anything in advance that is more than three and a half years in the future (six months of those four years are spent playing the American political circus). The next administration can, and often does, reverse many of the previous administration's plans.
The Chinese can and do make commitments to long term
projects that can be spread over many years, thus being less of a burden on the national economy and thus having the positive effect of having more time to correct and test those plans. If you look at the Chinese military, which was basically 1950's and 1960's vintage in 1980, when China invaded Vietnam (and lost) and the Chinese military of today, which is equipped with very modern weapons, you'll get the point. The Chinese navy is planning to have true long range ability (Carrier groups etc) by 2050! They take their time and no longer try to do Maoesque "Great Leaps". If China wants to go to the Moon or Mars, they will probably not race anyone there but take their time and do it right (Permanent bases anyone).
I think the Chinese government is well aware that there is a need for more openess in China and recent news articles discuss the idea of allowing democracy within the Communist party on a low level basis. I would find it highly ironic if China and the USA meet one another one day, what with China becoming more open and the USA becoming more restricted (Patriot acts I and II, anyone you don't like becoming an "Enemy Combatant" i.e. Enemy of the state)
SARS
Poverty
slave labour
Did i miss anything?
Before you start off looking at other countrys' safety records... see US first. It was a LONG time before the US got its rocket science correct! Same with the atomic bombs too! They had to blow up close to 700 or so nuclear devices till they knew how to make a bomb! Compared to this, China and India have made the same grade (in rockets) with far fewer failures than US. Just because the past failures were not reported (due to lack of media) doesnot mean US was a huge success right away.
PRS.
I really don't know... I've been reading too many news about the chinese's (and asians in general) space program ambitions and it is becoming too Sci-Fi too be true.
First the human space flight (nothing special), then moon landing (not special, either), then moon base (beginning to sound bluff) and now Mars base?
Well, personaly I do think that we need to invest more in space exploration/colonization so we can begin to take the advantages of some technologies(like cold fusion -> H3) as soon as we arrive and mine the moon, for example. But I don't believe we will achive all this in the next, say, 30, 40 years.
However, I think this is a good way to pressure other nations to join the race and forget about little wars (around pretolleum, gas, and stuff like that). Money spent in space exploration may be considered badly spent by some but it is unarguably much better spent than in wars!
but I'm afraid (THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY SUCKS!!!) that for various reasons out of my control (COMMUNISM IS EVIL!!!) you probably won't get to read it.
Still, it seems that all the prognostications regarding China's economic potential merely take into account its huge potential consumer base, but not its political reality. If the CP is willing to let itself be marginalized and eventually swept away like most eastern European governments without putting up a fight, then maybe things could turn out ok. But given its track record, that is not very bloody likely. With the increasing affluence of members of your own particular social stratum (i.e. those with enough economic wherewithal to actually post on Slashdot), a new hunger for economic and political activism and dissent will arise that your CP won't be able to tolerate. If the CP is ever swept away forcefully, I can easily see China experience a similar fragmentation to the USSR. There are plenty of groups inside China that would like nothing better than to leave the hive.
But of course (MAO WORE A FUNNY SUIT) this is not the kind of discourse you could have from your current location, even if you were not a devout apologist for the CP. I have spoken to enough Chinese expatriates (RED AND YELLOW SUCK!!!) that "changed" their views the moment they left China to know that there's no point having a political discourse with someone IN China. I know, because I spent my childhood in communist eastern Europe, and I am fully aware of the huge disconnect between what people think and what they say in a totalitarian society.
The only major reason for the space program of the 60's that Amercians are rightly proud of was...in one word...Sputnik! One of the great causes of the malaise our manned space program is suffering from is a syndrome I think of as "political culpibility".
In other words, no Congressman/Congresswoman is going to push an untried ambitious technological experiment. Such an experiment could well cost the taxpayers a shit-ton of money. If the experiment fails, that money is seen as lost into the NASA sinkhole with absolutely no benefit derived (at least from the point of view of politics, not that of the scientific community). Add to that the potential for loss of human life on manned missions, and what you end up with is a politcal hot-potato that no elected official will want to touch. That's why promising technologies like the Solar Sail are only now becoming realities with the aid of the European Space Agency.
Of course every NASA technology, dicey as it is by nature, was untried at some point. It's my opinion that the political wherewithal (vis a vis space) only surfaces when there is an external (read:military) threat. That it's a powerful, and ideologically opposed nation like China should, ideally, be just the ticket to fuel the ambitions of our elected officials. It's really the classic Zero Sum Game as originally described by John Von Neuman and later applied to social theory by Robert Wright.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Just to clarify, your (I say you be because you're Chinese in Shanghai :) ) fighter forced down our propeller driven reconnaissance plane over international waters. This could easily be interpreted as an act of war. After our plane crash landed in your territory, your government held and interrogated the pilots and crew. China should have appologized for the entire incident, offer to repair the plane, and sent the crew on its way. China was entirely at fault and however you interpreted Bush's behavior doesn't change this. It's sad that your pilot died, but he was in the faster more agile jet, slamming into our plane was his fault.
Sure, the global picture locks pretty bleak. US, Europe and parts of Asia is having problems right now.
But, the fact is there is one player that is not following the trend.
Thats, right, China.
Despite SARS, despite Hong Kongs diffculties, China is still in a economic boom!
They may actually change the balance in the world economy considerably, if this continues for a few years. And a space program is proven to give a lot of nice spinoff effects, and technological progress.
I think I can see why this would be a good time for China to start one.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
A lousy pilot crahed his fighter jet into a lumbering propeller driven plane over international waters. When the US plane crash landed in China the Chinese government wouldn't release them.
There really isn't much you can spin out of these basic facts.
And you're going to take this into orbit?
One quick question: Hu's the party leader of China?
Between this and the second mars probe being delayed a week because of a fishing boat, it doesn't look good for NASA.
-You may license this sig for only $6.99.
"USians" is about the dumbest word ever, not even hardly pronouncable. Please don't use that fucking word. Instead use the term "Usonian".
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
The Chinese government (most high level officials who can make major governmental decisions, at least) are mostly practical. You can't really find anyone who is ultra-conservative and xenophobic right now, not those who are in the position to make decisions.
China suffers from the same problem as the USA. Recent presidents have shown a willingness to break past treaties (hell, all through history, we have shown a propensity for doing that, and indians tribes/native americans can testify to that) to push their agenda. China does the same with just about the same regularity. The problem for both is that we get hawks in each who really have no idea of how the world runs (perhaps they lived a hollywood life or simply avoided being put on the front lines of war, by hook or by crook). If you assume that we are going to make the same mistakes all over again, then, personally, I would like to think that we are going to come out on top.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
We can let the Chinese waste billions of dollars to find out the soil composition on Mars and use American dollars on more usefull things such as chewing gum.
If you want more information about the research sql*kitten mentions, check out the Focus Fusion Society. Their goal is raise funding for additional R&D in this subject, but they also have a good description of how focus fusion is achieved.
Hmm...
s/China/the US/
s/Tibet/Afghanistan/
s/Taiwan/the rest of the world
If the US stopped with the oppresion of Afghanistan, and stopped leaning on the rest of the world like they do, then maybe I'd be a little more inclined to believe you when you say that the US "wants peace".
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
You are forgetting that it is beneficial for the USA to have a manageable amount of enemies. I am starting to feel that if they don't have any, they must make some, as the threat from the "evil other" can be used to politically control the population and also as an excuse for the insane amounts of money the USA pours into its military-industrial complex.
If substantial numbers of Americans suddenly realized that they don't have much to fear in the world at the moment if they just don't act like total bastards, entire sectors of US economy would be wiped out and the people would not have a reason to re-elect a right wing extremist president.
I'm afraid China and the US are headed for a cold war no matter what China does, because for the USA, China makes a convenient enemy...
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
It was in international waters. Thus, it was fair game for both the US to spy AND China to intercept the spy plane. Basically, non was a fault. Shit happens, move on.
Life is not for the lazy.
if we want to survive, we will (someday) have to get off this rock, and if the human race as a WHOLE doesn't work together on this goal, we are all doomed.
I'll keep that in mind...for 50 million years from now ;)
Last one there's a rotten egg?
They can very easily catch up. The Chinese are willingly sacrifice alot more lives than we would. That gives them alot more room to try things that we wouldn't think of doing.
"I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war"
Then they've already lost. For example:
USA has a few thousand nuclear weapons
China has a few dozen
Result: China loses
USA has a 3-ocean navy
China barely has a 1-ocean navy
Result: China loses
USA has a permanent manned presence in space
China hasn't sent anybody into space yet
Result: China loses
Part of winning the Cold War with the Soviets means having a 499-meter head start in the next 500-meter dash. Sure, it's possible for China to come out of nowhere and get ahead, but it's just as possible for my ass to quantum tunnel through my chair.
I have a feeling that if these countries would work together instead of competing against each other in a race of who'll get there first, space exploration as a whole would be a greater success. Can't we all just get along?
so do the apache /longbow/ pilots still wet their panties when they hear about the hind and the havoc? *G*
"There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do NOT wave in a Vacuum " --Arthur C Clarke
Or capitalist-swynian.
Yes, because only Usonians are capitalists. No one in Europe or Asia or Africa belongs to the WTO or supports any large corporations. Nope. Just the US.
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
I think what the poster was trying to say was the reference to the large destruction of Buddhist artifacts by many countries' government, most notably China. Take for example the building of dams that flood old temples with little to no effort to recover or remove the artifacts by the goverment.
Something's brewing in Mr. Chen's house.
There's a note on the freezer door:
I heard that Florida is a fun place to visit.
Let's save up money and plan for a vacation
to Florida next summer.
Perhaps we can rent an RV and drive there !
- - - - -
Meanwhile, inside the Smith's household,
Mrs. Smith:
"I heard that the Chen's are gonna get
themselves an RV next week !"
"What should we do ?"
Mr. Smith:
"Let's make sure that the Chen's can't
get their RV."
"Maybe we'll burn down their house so they
won't have a place to park their RV."
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I am fairly certain that any land on any planet besides Earth (with the exception of Antarctica) belongs to everyone. To my knowledge this is a rule instated by the United Nations.
Now with all this talk about China planning to head up to Mars, it gets me wondering just how much China, or USA/EU for that matter, will honour that policy.
It's all good in theory, except I can definitely see a point where China/USA/EU lands on Mars first, claims a certain spot for their own for research, what have you, and decides its in the interests of "National Security" to not allow anyone from "Agency X" to have access. With all that land up there just waiting to be had, I'm sure it won't be a problem in our lifetime, but it sure will be something our children or grandchildren will have to face.
I wonder how closely the future of Mars will mirror Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy?
Its allready a red planet.
Actually it is amber-ocre. But, that does not make for very catchy anthems.
Table-ized A.I.
Catching SARS in BARS on MARS makes you see STARS and crash MARS CARS.
Table-ized A.I.
I guess it really could be called the "Red Planet".
(Please don't flame me, it's late and I can't sleep)
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass