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"DVD-Jon" Demands Compensation
orzetto writes "Jon Lech Johansen, known as DVD-Jon, and aquitted in a trial in Norway, after being accused of infringement for making a GUI for DeCSS, is now demanding that Norwegian Oekokrim pay for all the time and money he has lost to the trial, claiming 150,000 NOK (about 17,500 euros)."
Slashdot's gone cold I'm wondering why I got out of bed at all
The morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see at all
And even if I could it'll all be gray but your picture on my wall
It reminds me, that it's not so bad -- it's not so bad
Dear Rob, I wrote but you still ain't callin
I left my email, my ICQ, and my yahoo chat at the bottom
I sent two emails back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem with your sendmail or somethin
Sometimes I scribble email addees too sloppy when I jot 'em
but anyways; fsck it, what's been up? Man how's your boxes?
My boxes is linux too, I'm bout to be a compiler
once I learn gcc,
I'ma go on and compile for hours
I read about your Palm Pilot too I'm sorry
I had a friend lose his Palm over at the airport in Maradonna
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even read all your bullshit Linux news and Microsoft's man
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the way you sold your ass out too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back,
just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan
Dear Rob, you still ain't called or wrote, I hope you have a chance
I ain't mad - I just think it's FSCKED UP you don't answer fans
If you didn't wanna talk to me outside your Linux World
you didn't have to, but you coulda signed an autograph for Matthew
That's my Senior sys admin he's only 26 years old
We waited on a 9600 baud for you,
four hours and you just said, "No."
That's pretty shitty man - you're like his fsckin idol
He wants to be just like you man, he likes you more than I do
I ain't that mad though, I just don't like bein lied to
Remember when we met in Boston - you said if I'd write you
you would write back - see I'm just like you in a way
I never had a clue about shit either
I gcc'd shit with my wife then beat her
I can relate to what you're saying in your page
so when I feel like rmusering I read Slashdot to begin the rage
cause I don't really got shit else so that shit helps when I'm depressed
I even got a tattoo of slashdot across the chest
Sometimes I even packet myself to see how much it floods
It's like adrenaline, the DDoS is such a sudden rush of blood
See everything you say is real, and I respect you cause you tell it
My girlfriend's jealous cause I talk about you 24/7
But she don't know you like I know you Rob, no one does
She don't know what it was like for people like us growin up
You gotta call me man, I'll be the biggest fan you'll ever lose
Sincerely yours, Stan -- P.S.
We should be together too
Dear Mister-I'm-Too-Good-To-Waste-A-Packet-On-My-Fans,
this'll be the last packet I ever send your ass
It's been six months and still no word - I don't deserve it?
I know you got my last two emails
I wrote the @ signs on 'em perfect
So this is my payload I'm sending you, I hope you hear it
I'm on my modem now, I'm doing 9600 baud so fear it
Hey Rob, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to code?
You know the song by Deep Purple or Slayer
its irrelevant by playing on my linux player
while I write some php scripts and play some Dragonslayer
That's kinda how shit is, you coulda rescued me from drowning
Now it's too late - I'm on a 1000 downloads now, I'm drowsy
and all I wanted was a lousy letter or a call
I hope you know I ripped +ALL+ of your pictures off the wall
I love you Rob, we coulda been together, think about it
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it
And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you SCREAM about it
I hope your conscience EATS AT YOU and you can't BREATHE without me
See Rob {*screaming*} Shut up bitch! I'm tryin to code
Hey Rob, that's my senior admin screamin from the comode
but I didn't cut the power off, I just rebooted, see I ain't like you
cause if rm -rf'd we'd suffer more, and then the boxes
That is about $22,000. I would want my money back, too.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
They wasted enough of his time and money.
Maybe they'll follow Seattle's example and pay him off with a free DVD and a masterclass on DVD authoring.
I hope the okokrim sues the MPAA for getting them into his mess in the first place...
The Slashdot Paradox: "100% Overrated"
... DVD-Jon also requests a copy of LORD:ROTH special edition DVD! ;)
'Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes, aaarrrrrrrr!' -- Minsc
Fair enough, the bills are quite expensive, does he get a piece of the DeCSS shirts on ThinkGeek? (only half joking)
If nothing else, he might raise more public interest and get donations that way.
I think it's common sense that if you're a defendant and found not guilty that you shouldn't have to pay. Frankly, I'm surprised something like this doesn't exist already. Perhaps if the plaintiff had to pay ALL court costs if he/she lost there would be fewer nonsensical lawsuits.
IANAL, that's just my two cents.
"Jon, we will compensate you in remaindered copies of 'Little Nicky', 'Crossroads', and 'Ishtar' in DVD."
Maybe this is a bit similar to the MikreRoweSoft.com case. Rather than ending bad for him, he gets free publicity for his work and DeCss in general, if that's his motive...
Anyone know? I didn't see it in the article.
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
This is not the sig line you are looking for... -- Old Jedi Sig Line Trick
This went on for quite a while, i'm surprised that the number isnt much higher (like in the 75k range).
Someone sues me and wastes my time (the more important part) and money then you betcha I'd sue back. Although it sounds Jon is just demanding and not suing.
I hope this isn't considered a surprise...to anyone.
:wq
I hope he prevails. Perhaps it will give other prosecutors pause, to think out their case. If you have a weak case and know you are going to have to pay all cases, you might decide to forego prosecution and use your resources on cases which aren't weak. This benefits the society as a whole.
The article doesnt say if its costs hes looking at recovering, or "costs" he wants back (ie, is it lawyers fees, or "dammit i want money for you harassing me").
Sounds to me towards the end that its the latter..? What do others think/know?
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
Got off cheap.
...Seems a little entitlement-minded, doesn't he?
Why doesn't he setup a legal defense fund like Linda Tripp?
IANALBIPOOSWIAB (I am not a lawyer but I play one on slashdot when I am bored) --
In da US they call thems dere sorts of stuff 'Wrongful Prosecution'. I wonder how they would handle this in Norvay. I mean, as I understood it when it was escalated to the higher court it was a civil-type charge. Wrongful Pros cases in the US historically deal with criminal prosecutions. yes yes, I know nothing of norvegian law, yes yes i'll stfu, sorry...
It could be to do with the stonking great adverts /. has started showing to the right of the main content...
Have you got "images from other sites" turned off?
The Slashdot Paradox: "100% Overrated"
Isnt this what countersuits are for in the first place ? I mean this on is a little different beign sortof a Criminal case, but since it was the strongarm of the MPwhatever. Couldnt he sue them ?
If he were a Slashdotter, he'd whine about it endlessly while doing nothing.
Sounds like just enough to pay your RIAA extortion.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
If people continue to fight these lawsuits and counter-sue, rather than just settle, then these companies will be discouraged from these rages in the future because it will end up costing them more in dollars & negative PR than it's worth.
He didn't have to pay lawyer's fees, and from the sounds of it outside of having something like this looming over his head for years it's probably been a boon to him overall (he won't have to worry about finding work, for one thing.) It's probably a better time to count blessings than demand renumeration.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
It is really sad to see this happening to society. We have gone from struggling to provide print media for those in struggling third-world countries and yet we have these "union-esque" groups who are just going sue happy (RIAA, SCO, MPAA etc...).
It seems to me that our civilization (North American/European and East Asian) has reached a plateau where we could very easily stop trying to fight amongst ourselves, back off and lend a helping hand to all those countires that are just trying to punch through industrialization. I'm not suggesting we put our future on hold but perhaps it is time to, at least on a small level, reassess the important things - like food, water, shelter, comfort and open source software.
The MPAA might think its doing itself and those artists it protects a afvor by fighting for them but really, these actors make more money than the doctor who ay one day save their lives. Aren't priorities a little confused here?
Again, just my opinion but in my "idyllic world" everyone's opinion has something to add (and for SPAMMERS that might be inches to your member!)
Just imagine the bill to California when OJ finds the "real" killers. :)
Zep--
Anyway he might make more money writing a few exclusives in the press than going through more legal procedure. People must understand : the lawyers make the real money, not the plaintiffs. Stop making those snakes rich with at no risk to themselves. You take the risk, DVD Jon. The lawyer gets paid whatever.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
No problems here.
Using IE6
My theory is that he simply wants the money and wants it now. I'd much rather ask for $22k and have the other company settle immediately than the alternative. If he asks for $150 the court will say it didn't really cost him that much and lower the amount to $75k. Subtract the $50K of lawyer fees it would take him to SUE THEM for the money and he's left with $25k. It's in everyone's interest to ask for a more reasonable amount and just settle out of court.
Jamon
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
He was lucky he got saved by his own court sys, because I doubt that would've happen in the US. If he sues they will just counter sue.
n/t
don't worry -- murderers are at the top of the heap. this doesn't mean you're safe; it just means that guys won't be especially hard on you just because of what you did.
if i were you, as soon as i got to prison i'd find a rapist or molester and make him your bitch immediately. a tip: break his teeth on the toilet bowl rim if he gives you any trouble.
--proc
I just had to bitch about something in the article. "It's a modest claim by international standards, amounting to around USD 20,000."
That doesn't matter at all. Does the 150,000NOK have the same purchasing power in Norway as 20,000USD has in the states? If not, the comparison is completely worthless.
If it costs 4CAD for a carton of large eggs here and 24XXX for the same in some fictional country, but the exchange rate is 1XXX for every 2CAD, then they certainly don't have the same purchasing power, do they?
Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
Yes it was needlessly imprecise - its not liked they saved any space by not listing more than 10% of the value.
I think its a subconscious thing - it must hurt americans to remember the euro is a much stronger currency than the dollar. It started at about the same as the dollar but the weak dollar has made it look very good indeed.
He deserves at least some compensation for this. You take him to court and don't find him guilty, then leave him out in rain with no clothes. Now I'm sure he's got enough to help himself but somecompensation for what he's gone through would be more than enough. I think the fact that I wouldn't be guilty would be enough for me.
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
Hell, I'd give a couple of bucks!
"Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
That means the lower court's decision will stand, at least until another eventual appeal takes the case to Norway's supreme court.
I would not be surprised if these big corps take it back to the supreme court. Their army of lawyers can always make something up.
Hats off to DVD-Jon though!
Free XBox, PS2
IANAL, but:
What about emotional pain and suffering?
and
Defamation of Character?
and
Could he go after every company in the RIAA group individually ?
just a thought...
I've seen the same thing, running Firebird 0.7 too. It seems rare and goes away with a reload, but still, points to some problem. I suspect it has something to do with one of the ad sizes.
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
Haha. I hear that one brother. I use Mozilla Firebird as my primary broswer and Slashdot is messed up half of the time. I switch back to IE and it shows up fine. Funny how on one of the most anti-Microsoft sites around it takes a Microsoft broswer to view the thing correctly.
sup nigga
...hackers sue the prosecutors!
Oh yeah. Everybody I know comments everyday on how weak the dollar is vs the Euro. Just a couple of minutes ago I heard the guy at the hot dog stand complaining.
Here's a clue - Americans don't give a shit what the Dollar and the Euro are doing.
I think it's common sense that if you're a defendant and found not guilty that you shouldn't have to pay.
I guess that's more about the whole lotta trouble he was put up for, which probably took him a lot of time spent on court, trials, interviews etc.
150000 will buy you a used, 7 year old car of a modest brand... It have the purchasing power of about 10-15,000 USD depending on what you spend them on.
What is OK is for me to be able to use a copy of data I've purchased as I see fit for personal use, not in ways the provider chooses to restrict me.
Same principle goes for mod-chips, copy-protected CDs, DVDs and so on.
If the content providers want to protect their copyrights, they can sue those who are abusing them. They should not stop me making legitimate use of my property.
I was forced to read all those damn articles about DVD-Jon. I want to be compensated for this.
DVD X-Copy. http://www.web-deals.net/dvdxcopy.htm
As a programer how much money would have him made if he were working on all the time he lost on trials and stuff?
I would plea for that kind of money. The 22.000,00 USD would be more like it if he was Indian, but he's not.
Well, things are, supposedly, 1.5x times more expensive here in Norway than in the USA. So, yeah. Norway is among the most expensive countries in the world to live in. In fact, Oslo is the most expensive city to live in... in the whole world.
Shut your fucking ugly face, Gamache.
Sexy codfish launch annual courtship
Some people very much like a weak dollar, namely anyone involved with a business that a) exports to Europe, or b) competes with European imports. Ask Daimler and BMW how much they like a strong Euro.
Jon Johansen is not the hero for open source software as he likes to describe himself lately.
The truth is, he is a liar, a defender of closed source software, ignorant to the GPL and a guy who simply wanted to copy DVDs. His lies lead most of us to believe that he is a good guy and got him even free a legal team paid by EFF.
Read more about DVD-Jon:
http://www.chscene.ch/ccc/decss/decsstruth.txt
That is about $22,000. I would want my money back, too.
...that Slashdot managed to list the sum in two different currencies, and neither was USD?
Anyway, it's not lawyer fees, but mainly
a) earnings loss
b) court costs
c) some very small compensation
Compared to the US, there is hardly any compensation for having to go through a court case. Or hell, even being innocently jailed. Noone has ever gotten more than $1M even if they've done 21 years ( = "life" in Norway) and been acquitted later.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
So really, what you're saying is that "DVD Jon" deserved to be sued for trying to watch a DVD he bought, and deserves to pay for his defense even though a court has sided with him twice?
This case is not about stealing copyrighted works . It's about who owns the things that you buy.
So really, what everyone here is saying, is that it's OK to crack proprietary code ("code must be free"), steal copyrighted works ("music must be free") and get away with it.
You have it all wrong. We are saying that on top of all that, the companies who's code he cracked should pay him.
Why the submitter didn't just put that in the synopsis is beyond me.
150,000 NOK in Norway have definitely less purchasing power than their countervalue in dollars in the US or any EU country; AFAIK the only country more expensive than Norway is Iceland, and maybe (some areas of) Japan.
I think this is mostly about principles than money, 150000 is not really a bunch. My 54-sq. meters flat (here in Norway) is worth 840,000 NOK, and I got quite a deal at buying that. Iceberg salad is 20-30 NOK for about half a kilo. A half liter of beer at a pub can range between 40 and 70 NOK. And I didn't yet mention anything with more than 10% alcohol in it!
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
150,000 NOK (about 17,500 euros) or about $17 US dollars, I think.
Kidding... its actually $22k which I think is quite low. For all the time he spent on this he should be asking for at least 1m NOK (150k USD, 116 EUR).
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
The failed prosecution of DVD Jon demonstrates that Norway, at least, protects the rights of its citizens from corporate/government collusion to persecute. He might be due $20K, a decent return for a Norwegian 20 year old's part-time college job as inexpert witness in his own defense. But Jon's damages from their unmerited actions fall less on his wallet than on his spirit. The real damage was the threats to his liberty, arrest, denigration, disgrace and professional disenfranchisement. These years of undeserved defensive living can not be restored, and have no price.
In the US, there is a distinction between civil and criminal violations of law, and their remedies. While the vagaries of US history, and lawyerly perversions of principles of "justice" often assign "punitive damages" to perpetrators and award them to victims, criminal penalties are assigned to those who damage intangibles: public trust, individual liberty, principles of Justice itself. In DVD Jon's case, there is a great deal of that kind of damage, to Jon, and to his compatriots, and ripples to us, in other countries.
The remedy includes holding those behind these prosecutions liable for their actions in wrongfully prosecuting him. Moreover, if this kind of wrongful prosecution is found to be systemic, the judge ought to assign changes in the system. Otherwise the perpetrators will be free to attack Liberty without repercussions, and the rising tide of corporate attacks on human rights will pervade Norway. Combine corporate financial superiority with their liability immunity advantage, and it looks pretty bad for the humans. Unless Norwegians see themselves in DVD Jon's shoes, and get their country back on track.
--
make install -not war
Her case was based primarily on poor or non-existing evidence and character assasination (among other things, she likened Johansen to gang-bangers). She wasted Johansen's time, the judges' and jury's time, and taxpayer money. So yes, Johansen is in the right to seek compensation from Okokrim.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
So really, what everyone here is saying, is that it's OK to crack proprietary code ("code must be free"), steal copyrighted works ("music must be free") and get away with it.
No. The Norwegian legal system is saying that that Jon Johansen's actions were legal. If you disagree with their conclusions (and want to do something other than whine about the attitudes of Slashdotters like yourself), you should explain your reasoning to the legislative body of the Norwegian government and the Motion Picture Association of America (which prompted this legal action.)
So really, what you're saying is that "DVD Jon" deserved to be sued for trying to watch a DVD he bought
You and I both know that "DVD Jon" was perfectly able to view his DVD under the spacifics of the agreement he agreed to when he purchased the DVD.
Come on. Less bullshit, more facts.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Yeah, it's doing that.
Unfortunetly for DVD-Jon, they don't sell Mountain Dew in Norway...
From this tourist site, a half-litre (1.05 pint) beer costs 40KR, or $5.86 US.
Nice, then I found this site for British students, albeit the rates are a few years old. I've modified it with current currency rates.
Rent of an apartment in Oslo: 6000 NKR per month (US $880)
Rent for a room in university residence: 2500 NKR per month (US $367)
Bus ticket: 20 NKR (US $2.93)
Hamburger: 50 NKR (US $7.33)
Coca cola: 18 NKR (US $2.64)
Loaf of bread: 20 NKR (US $2.93)
Cinema ticket: 60 NKR (US $8.80)
When you buy something, you enter into what is called a contract. No one forces you to enter into this agreement, but when you do, you are bound by it.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
The DVD regional settings are clearly implemented to hinder and obstruct free trade.
File in Hague for a delta cost times all the DVD's ever sold. Works out to more than $100B. assuming 15% mark-up in non-1 regions.
Add collusion by the DVD makers like Philips, Sony etc and make them liable individually for total amount.
This has a non trivial chance of succeeding and will if nothing else get enough publicity to at least stop this nonsense.
Help fight continental drift.
they don't sell Mountain Dew in Norway...Bet they do... Mountain Dew sponsors snowboarding teams from Norway...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Unfortunately, prices in Norway are extremely high, mostly because of all that oil money causing inflation. This more than offsets the current weakness of the USD.
The reason that the amount is so low is quite another; in Norway damages are strictly based on the actual money lost (well, and to a lesser amount things like emotional damage). If you asked for american-style amounts ("I'm suing for $300.000.000!"), you would be laughed out of court.
Jon used a public defender, so his costs weren't that high.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
So really, what everyone here is saying, is that it's OK to crack proprietary code ("code must be free"), steal copyrighted works ("music must be free") and get away with it. Aperently most of you still live at home (like DVD Jon) and don't directly have to pay bills, except for maybe your stash and some Dew now and then.
No, what we're saying is that it's legal to reverse-engineer hardware and software for the purposes of interoperability and exercising your fair-use rights. In other words, it's perfectly legal to crack the CSS encryption on DVDs so that you can watch the DVDs that you legally purchased on your Linux computer, which after all these years still has no commercial DVD playing software.
We also recognize that there's a big difference between stealing (depriving someone of a physical product they own) and copyright infringement (making a digital copy of something, which doesn't deprive the owner of their copy nor does it deprive the copyright holder of any revenue if you otherwise wouldn't have purchased it). We also recognize that morally there is a big difference between downloading a few MP3s off the Internet (just for fun, to try out new bands, for albums that are not being produced anymore - which is no more immoral than borrowing a book or a CD from a friend) and wholesale mass-copying (people who burn 'pirated' CDs and sell them in the streets).
Thats the kind of stuff the RIAA and MPAA want us to believe. When we buy something we BUY something. Screw you and your "enter into a contract" BS.
NOK sounds to me like it shouldn't be Norweigan currency, but rather Finnish currency, i.e. "NOKias".
Uh, no. When you buy something, you get what is called "merchanidise" in return for what is called "money".
When you sign a "contract", then you enter into what is called a "contract". When you "buy" something, then it's yours to do with as you please, within the bounds of applicable laws.
Damn. I've been trolled. Oh well, the correction stands.
anyone else find it slightly ironic that everything on that list is almost DOUBLE what it would cost here in the U.S. EXCEPT the movie ticket? :P
Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
I'd like to rate that mod -1 redundant please?
Last post!
Best troll ever. I'll even use my karma bonus on it. Should be modded up.
When I buy something, I do NOT enter into a contract. You are right; no one has forced me into an agreement. THERE ISN'T ONE.
As to being bound by [the contact] -- I didn't enter into a contract, so I am not bound by it.
And, once purchased, I'll do any damn thing I want with the data. As long as it is illegal within the prevailing laws. If its an audio CD, I'll certainly allow my friends to make copies (permitted here). If its a DVD, I won't make copies, but I will decrypt it for my own use.
If the publisher wishes to enter into a contract with; relating to my USE of the data, she is certainly welcome to. However, I will demand appropriate compensation.
For example - view DVD on approved player ONLY. That would make the DVD worth $8 CDN to me. Sure, I'll buy it, but for that restriction, I want a serious negotition on price.
I don't think that encryption is useful, because it gives me pains when I want to use the product. I do find "region encoding" useful, because it prevents me from accidentally playing a PAL disc on NTSC gear (or SECAM).
Anyway, if you consider yourself "bound by a contract" after making a simple purchase, I urge you to reconsider your position. Go talk to a lawyer.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
What are you talking about? Norway just protected DVD Jon's rights to write code to use his DVD property as he sees fit. I decline your "tyranny of the minority" agitprop troll. Imagine shadowy motives if you wish, but I am a successful American businessman; I value my property, and our rights, including our mutual rights to exchange property. And I am vigilant against abuses of these universal rights.
Your strawman nonsense about "freedom from hunger" appears nowhere but in your nonsequitur attack. Even parsing your gibberish poses difficulties in replying. "...People who espouse such statements that are the greatest threat to actual liberty - property rights"? Are you saying property rights are somehow a threat to liberty? Are you implying that my defense of DVD Jon (and all of us) from his wrongful prosecution is some coded defense of "freedom from hunger"? Either back up your inferences, or keep them to yourself.
--
make install -not war
No, thats what the IP lawyers want you to think. When you buy something, it is yours. You can turn the DVD's into a sculpture and no one can say anything about it. What stops people from copying and reselling it is copyright law.
I think there should always be different standards for individuals and corporations. For instance, if Bono saw you selling illegally produced copies of "Achtung Baby" and he called you names and took the CDs, and you took him to court for theft, I think a judge would throw the case out. At least, Judge Judy would ;) But if someone took the RIAA to court for the same thing, they (the RIAA) should get penalized to the full extent of the law.
So if it's "Individual vs. Corp," then Ind. pays own fees if he loses, but Corp pays his fees if he wins, and Corp pays their own fees either way.
If it's "Corp vs. Corp" or "Ind vs. Ind," then loser pays the fees.
So things are biased in favor of the individual, but so many other things are biased in favor of the corporation, it works out alright. And that's the way it should be. I mean, I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning, and I've been thinking about this for a full 10 minutes or so.
c-hack.com |
how much do you want to bet? :-))
(Remember: Never go in against a Sicilian and/or a Norwegian when death is on the line! And of course, Never get involved in a land war in Asia)
Bullshit. Read the user agreement on the DVD, and don't be so ignorent of copyright law.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
WRONG! Just because you choose to be ignorent of the fact that when you purchase and play a DVD you are agreeing to certain things, does not mean it is not so. You choose to ignore these things like it will make them go away. But that is not the way it works in the real world.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Yes, but when you buy the right to use something under certain conditions, then you have the right to use it under those conditions. Your ignorence of the purchase agreement does not mean you are not bound by that agreement.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
What "agreement"? When I buy a DVD the sales-clerk does not make me sign any kind of agreement, he just takes my money and smiles. Oh, they usually mention in the beginning of the movie that I'm not allowed to make "unathorized copies" of the movie, nor am I allowed to show the movie in a cable-tv or something. There are no mention of devices that I'm allowed to use to watch the movie. If I decide to watch it in my DVD-player under Linux, there's NOTHING they could do about it.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
A half-litre beer cost 25NOK at a student pub (run by students, for the student societies), 29NOK at the cheapest regular pub I know about, and around 50NOK (say 45-60) at most others. At least in Oslo, where I live.
To rent an apartment.. well, that really varies depending on where in Oslo you live. Say between 2500 and 10000, most student get apartments for around 2500-3500NOK/month
Bus ticket: 30NOK if paid when you get onto the bus (in oslo), 20NOK if you've got a prepaid ticket.
Hamburger: Depends on where you buy it. 37NOK for a Big One, 75NOK if you buy yourself a good one at a REAL Hamburger-kiosk.
Coca Cola: aprox 10NOK for a 0.5 litre bottle. Aprox 15NOK for 1.5 litre bottle.
Loaf of bread: really depends on the type of bread. Between 10 and 25 NOK
Cinema ticket: 75 in Oslo.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
Individual liberty and dignity are far more important than property rights. And property rights shall NEVER BE USED to demean human dignity and liberty.
That is, if you use your property to oppress someone else, it is only fair that you'd be deprived of your property.
" In that case, the government is the prosecutor. This brings another awful argument to the table. This would encourage lawyers to charge absolutely rediculous amounts. If a person was guilty and admitted it, then they would go for the cheapest law firm, since they'd have to pay for it. However, if a person figured they could get out of the charges, they'd hire the most expensive lawyer possible and the government could be out of millions of dollars because of a small legal loophole.
How would you feel knowing that your tax dollars put millions of dollars into the pockets of a lawyer who protected a rapist by using every means possible?
Included text to please the lamness filter, as the subject line says it all. Dumbass.
I thought in the US, either side could appeal (with the appropriate grounds) the same case to a higher court.
I thought Double Jeapordy meant that, if you charged with acrime, acquitted, and there are no appeals in the allotted time, THEN you can't be charged with the same crime again.
perhaps this is the currency now being used ?
Here
It doesn't appear the purpose of 9/11 was to specifically overthrow consitutional government. Bush and Congress are the ones behind that. 9/11 in my view was probably a combination of retailiation against harms (real or imagined) inflicted by the US on the Middle East and Islam in general and an attempt to actually disrupt some financial machinations. I wonder if they even imagined the US would retaliate back so harshly?
What is contract?
)
I will quote (http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/contracts.html
"Contracts are promises that the law will enforce. The law provides remedies if a promise is breached or recognizes the performance of a promise as a duty. Contracts arise when a duty does or may come into existence, because of a promise made by one of the parties. To be legally binding as a contract, a promise must be exchanged for adequate consideration. Adequate consideration is a benefit or detriment which a party receives which reasonably and fairly induces them to make the promise/contract . For example, promises that are purely gifts are not considered enforceable because the personal satisfaction the grantor of the promise may receive from the act of giving is normally not considered adequate consideration. Certain promises that are not considered contracts may, in limited circumstances, be enforced if one party has relied to his detriment on the assurances of the other party."
Now... what promise did I make to the holder of the copyright when I purchased the DVD? That's right, I didn't promise ANYTHING. What promise did
the vendor make to me? That's right, I wan't promised ANYTHING. What consideration was I given; that would compel me to give up my rights? Again, I'll take NONE as the answer. And what consideration did I give to possess the piece of plastic with the data? The vendors purchase price.
No way in hell that this is a CONTRACT. I simply purchased a good. And that just happens to have some copyrighted material on it.
I can use the DVD for any legal purpose, including reselling. The vendor may desire there to be a contract in place, but legally there isn't.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Please cite:
1) A source that details what is in this alleged "agreement."
2) Some evidence that I signed it (a copy of the agreement bearing my signature, please.)
3) Some law that says once I buy a DVD I really don't actually own it.
4) Some law that says I can't watch my DVDs on a "non-approved" player.
If you can't do any of the four, kindly pound sand until you can.
Also, for the moment, we'll pretend you're not ignorant of the correct spelling of ignorant.
Who did what now?
victims of the RIAA/MPAA/SCO/etc like Jon who are acquitted should sue them where it hurts. Think of it as a distributed-denial-of-suing attack.
Hey, it is the game they seem to want to play so why not return the favor (or "fight fire with fire"). And we have one thing in our favor; numbers. We have more numbers than they do so if we all sue for deflamation, etc. and win, they will be out of $ to sue ppl with and we would be successful in declawing the menaces.
I'm not sure how relevant this is, and this comment will undoubtably be buried as a 1 in a sea of other 1's and 0's (no pun intended) but...
:-). Even then, in this case it would have gone before ICANN arbitration and their ruling would have been the end of it, for all practical purposes.
In this case, because Mike Rowe was not the plaintiff, he wouldn't have lost any money (under the loser-pays-all system) if Microsoft had lost - it would have been the other way around
Now if you mean his propensity to sue would be diminished by the loser pays all system then, yes, I see your point, but I'd imagine the system really does work both ways, as I alluded to above.
.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
thanks for your kind look on people who don't want to serve. I quite like your point of view.
:
Now just a small story to thank you
As a french citizen, in my time, you had to give 12 month military service.
Most people that didn't want to do it tried to go with a notorious label which is P4.
For the non-french-military ppl here, the french used a system called SYGIPOP to rate you on the the military scale. the second P is for "Psychologie", and the lower the note the saner you are, so if you got P4, it meant you were 'slightly off-base" and wouldn't have to du military service. Many people tried getting that P4 rating to avoid military service, doing thing like pissing or mastubating in front of senior military psys...
Some ppl went too far and got P5 rating (direct confinement in a Military Mental Hospital for screening/observation , Aouch ! 8)
When I went to the revision screening (had a broken shoulder and ankle after a stupid skiing accident, and they drafted me 1 week after 8) I had the mandatory consultation with the military psy, who happened to be drafted psy graduate.
During the quick chat, I told him that I already knew how to read/write/shoot/fight, and 12 month being shouted at by military personel would result in me killing one of them out of pure frustration/boredom.
When I finally finished all the tests, I had a leave from the army with a G5 condition (General Physical Condition, and 5 is bad...)
Strangely, the P rating I had from the psy was 1, as in perfectly sane... nice world, isn't it 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
and as such the EU reverse engineering for interoperability rule doesn't apply unless the Norwegians have in their own laws.
Your ignorence of the purchase agreement does not mean you are not bound by that agreement.
Yes it does. I looked over the outside of my DVD cases and I have yet to see ONE dvd out of my collection of 100+ that has ANY MENTION of this mythical agreement. Not a single case holds any text that would appear to restrict my ability to play the DVD in any device I choose to.
Not a single DVD I have can even claim the "clickwrap" license software has, as the ONLY notice on the dvd itself is that I am not permitted to distribute copies of it or use it in a public showing, and I am not required to agree to this notice in order to proceed with my usage of the DVD.
So, in the absense of notifying me of this agreement, the manufacturers of the DVD cannot legally claim I have entered into this agreement. The purchase of every one of those DVDs was made and completed unconditionally.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
steal copyrighted works ("music must be free") and get away with it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said anything about stealing? The purpose of DeCSS was originally, and has always been, to decode encrypted DVDs for the purpose of viewing them on platforms where no decoder exists (ie, Linux).
If you're going to claim that you somehow have the right to take away DeCSS because teenaged kiddies use it to pimp out the latest release of the matrix on kazaa, then its only fair that you also take away guns, cars, airplanes, knives, forks, baseball bats, golf clubs, fireplace pokers, and everything else that could conceivably be used in the comission of a murder.
If you're going to backpedal now and claim that copyright isn't anywhere on the same level as murder, then how about a world without printers, fax machines, scanners, and copiers?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
No, it doesn't. And explain that to the judge when you go down.
I looked over the outside of my DVD cases and I have yet to see ONE DVD out of my collection of 100+ that has ANY MENTION of this mythical agreement.Bullshit.
Not a single DVD I have can even claim the "clickwrap" license software has, as the ONLY notice on the DVD itself is that I am not permitted to distribute copies of it or use it in a public showing, and I am not required to agree to this notice in order to proceed with my usage of the DVD.
And more bullshit...
So, in the absense [sic] of notifying me of this agreement, the manufacturers of the DVD cannot legally claim I have entered into this agreement. The purchase of every one of those DVDs was made and completed unconditionally.
Do you argue with cops too? Learn to stop talking before you shove your head so far up your ass you can never get it out.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Heheh. :)
As Arlo Guthrie said in "Alice's Restaurant", threatening the military that you want to kill someone, is... exactly the type of person they're looking for!
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
Bullshit. Read the court results on unsigned end user license agreements.
Certainly copyright law applies, but that has nothing to do with contracts, unless you want to call government a social contract.
A license can only give you more rights than copyright would give, not less, unless it's a signed contract. Just because companies tell you you have less rights doesn't mean it's so.
Dear Saeed al-Sahaf
There is no way I can express how much I admire your total lack of respect for facts. You have truly made my life more interesting.
Thank you!
-zarr
But he is asking to little.
What most people to not realise is that in court most people are being paid. You only need to look about the room and surmise who is not being paid to know how unjust the system is.
when you consider that, for instance, the british army rejects out of hand any talk of a conscription system. Basically if you want an effective army in todays age the troops have to actually _want_to_be_there, and most of the conscripts wont :o)
My other OS is also FreeBSD
Well, P1 is not the highest ranking. I had back problems that had been diagnosed
in a military hospital (Xrays + diagnostic from military specialist disqualifying
me from taking the Polytechnique entrance exam).
I produced those documents while I was chatting with the psy/doctor at the end
of the tests. I had bested the "intellectual" tests (not too tough in the group
I was in) and told him I'd be pretty annoyed to be drafted while I had been
disqualified from the part of the army I wanted to go (Polytechnique). I ended up P0 G5.
G5 is basically used to indicate "don't even try to look again into this case, he's
not faking it". If you "only" get a G4 you can be called later for another check.
And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy." - Arlo Guthrie(Alice's Restaurant)
Do you argue with cops too?
Hell no. They have a handcuffs and a gun. You've got... well, you've got calling my facts "bullshit".
So I'll tell you what, you produce the text of this agreement you're talking about and on what DVD cover I can find this agreement on, and after I've either found this DVD in my house or at my library/local store and verified that you are not spouting the bullshit you claim I am, THEN we'll talk.
No, it doesn't. And explain that to the judge when you go down.
Go down? Go down for what, watching Labyrinth on Linux? This goes back to the above paragraph, show me what text on the back of the DVD prohibits me from watching Labyrinth on Linux. That is the issue here.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
The trick is that if this ever went to course (and won?) the lawyers would be the ones who profit most.
This causes even more people to go to law school to become just like those fat-cat lawyers.
And in the end, you find that everyone's a lawyer (kinda like everyone's an IT person now a days).
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
That is friggin hysterical.
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
>You and I both know that "DVD Jon" was perfectly able to view his DVD under the spacifics of the agreement he agreed to when he purchased the DVD
Well in fact the court actually equalled these kind of "agreements" with private law addendums, something they do not look kindly upon.
In short the court ruled that if you buy a DVD then you own that specific DVD-disc and can use whatever means you damn well please to view the content.
Of course this was a norwegian court, YMMV
is the most bone-headed and wrong minded idea that seems to perinially pop up in developed countries these days.
As a US NAVY veteran, I must say that it was difficult enough having to serve with the assholes who felt they were "tricked" into service (who were only slightly less tolerable than the assholes who were gung-ho lifers) that I can't imagine the nightmare of serving with a bunch of people who never wanted to join in the first place.
Of course, the best thing that anyone ever got from serving in the US military is learning how tolerate assholes of all stripes, including f***wads who like to call a person a coward whenever they see that person taking a stand.
If you disagree with their conclusions, you should explain your reasoning to the legislative body of the Norwegian government and the Motion Picture Association of America (which prompted this legal action.)
1. They made an end-run around that and got the EUCD (aka Euro-DMCA) that EU, and so Norway through EEA-agreement.
2. MPAA is already having an ulcer over this ruling. But they can not influence Norwegian courts, even though they more or less brought it to court.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
They could compensate him with Gigli instead...
bah. Stupid me. 37 NOK for a "Big Mac", "Big One" is a pizza. ;)
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
Just because you choose to be ignorent of the fact that when you purchase and play a DVD you are agreeing to certain things,
I suggest that you read up on norwegian instead of US law.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
It was a criminal charge, for sure. He was not sued by Norsk Film or anything like that. He was charged by Okokrim (slashdot ate my ø)
If you have a case against a large corporation that could result in a large settlement, the lawyers will take on the case on a contingency basis. That means that it's a gamble to them. If you win the case, they get 40% or more of the proceeds.
They'll take those cases. If they figure out that if they win a certain percentage of them and the expected profit for them is worth more than the cost of doing the work, they'll do it.
My other first post is car post.
Everytime I see the phrase "DVD-Jon", I get excited because I think for a second that some company finally invented something that prevents people from missing the movie when they have to take care of other issues!
Your 'individual liberty' may include such non-concepts as 'freedom from hunger', but its often people who espouse such statements that are the greatest threat to actual liberty - property rights.
Pig Hogger responded:
What a prime example of a typical head-up-his-ass yankee that is totally incapable of understanding that other cultures can have a totally different viewpoint than the terminally constipated anglo-saxon viewpoint on private property.
Are you sure he's a Yank? We have a few rather vocal bozos here in Norway who claim property rights are the only ones that matters. Some of them consider Ayn Rand to be their prophet.
That would never happen, unless the fictional country had no trade with the outside world, in which case the currency could not be freely traded (and hence the concept of an 'exchange rate' is not applicable).
Why is it impossible, you ask? Well let's modify your example slightly and substitute a loaf of bread for a carton of eggs. So, a loaf costs 4CAD in Canada (probably not but hey), and 24XXX in Magical Pornlandia (well with a currency code like that...), and the exchange rate is 2CAD / XXX.
Now imagine a Canadian investor. He buys bread for 4CAD, snap freezes it and sells it in Pornlandia for 24XXX. He then converts the 24XXX to 48CAD!! Then, he buys 12 loafs for 48CAD and sells them for 12 x 24 = 288XXX, converting that to 576CAD, etc. Now, it doesn't matter what actual numbers you put in for the amounts he invests, because in your example the nominal price level in Pornlandia is higher, but their currency is more expensive. You will not find this with any real currency ... well if you do, just use the above scheme to make infinite profit! ;p
"Why are you watching the washing machine?"
"I love entertainment, as long as it's clean"
Awards of damages in European cases are usually several orders of magnitude lower than in the states.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Where? I'm one of the few who actually liked the movie.
Ok, yes Denmark is mostly a nanny state, for most things it works out pretty well, but other times it's just a pain in the ass.
:-)
I quite like that the services that everybody needs are simply provided by the state and paid for by taxes, as there is no need to bother people with finding an paying for those (roads, social security, health insurance, education aso.)
However I hate having to pay for it all (tax is 40% to 60% depending on income)
"logical and dispassionate" What are we to you, Vulcans?
-- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
abcs
adv aa
So your comment about being forced to spend time and energy killing people is misguided at best. It is not about compulsory patriotism, but about compulsory military service to defend one's country against foreign invaders.
You are not tortured or brainwashed in the Norwegian army. Nor are you destroyed. You are simply expected to spend one year of your life being trained into defending your country if it is attacked by foreign invaders. The compulsory military service is not there to create killing machines, but to have someone to defend Norway. The Norwegian army is there only to defend, not to attack other countries.
Alpha5, Chris Joy, Edvin Vik, Trond Knudsen, Torkill Bruland, Stian Mortensen and more? The "psychopath bunch"? Idiots, all of them.
Ah but nowadays "friendly fire" can kill almost as many if not more.
Personally, if people don't want to be in the military I don't see any point in forcing them to, they'll just be liabilities, especially in modern warfare where "cannon fodder" isn't as useful.
There's no point forcing them, spend money and resources on them (military equipment, training, lodging, food, logistics etc isn't cheap).
1) He gets shot, the rest may still feel obliged to carry him.
2) He gets everyone shot (very possible).
3) He shoots friendlies.
4) He doesn't do anything, or doesn't do anything right - you tie up resources trying to get him to do something or to punish him.
5) He grumbles and moans - lowers morale.
Might as well leave him at home.
Wrong dick wad. Man, you're such a moron...
Where did I ever say that property rights are more important than liberty? There is no choice between them, not in the DVD Jon case, not in my posts, not anywhere but in the degenerate imaginations of paranoid slaves. PigHogger, I am outing you as a TOTAL MORON, whatever your nationality. I am the only one in this thread making any sense at all, whether you agree with my points or not. And I defy you to argue against me when I repeat that Norwegians must get their government under control, and defend the same liberty that is under serious attack here in the US. Sensible people are doing what we can, but if liberty is depending on PigHogger and Gothmolly, then we're all doomed.
--
make install -not war
Instead services are expensive because of high wages, also for low-skilled work. The difference in salary between say a burger-flipper and a university professor is something like a factor of 2 here, in the US it's much bigger.
The practical upshot is that services; restaurants, hairdressers, taxis, services-in-general are expensive, but also that you can live decently being a burger-flipper.
You could say that USA is a good country to be rich in, while Norway is probably a much better country to live in if you are *not* among the rich. (the top 10% of the population has 20% of the total income in Norway, in USA they have more than 30% of the total income. The bottom 10% of the population has 4.5% of the total income in Norway, in USA they have less than half that.)