Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine

merryprankster writes "New Scientist is running a story about Sawfish, a chainsaw-wielding robotic submarine used as an underwater lumberjack. There are some 200 million trees thought to be standing on the floor of hydropower reservoirs worldwide. Sawfish attaches airbags to, and cuts around 9 trees an hour - the trees then float to the surface for collection. Cue the jokes about robotic high heels, suspenders and a bra."

Comments

Old growth lumber

[BWJones]

So, besides the cool tech issues, and clearing waterways of obstructions, the big deal here is that almost all of the old growth forests are gone. It is nigh impossible to find lumber that has grown slow and does not have knots in it anymore. In fact, Aladdin homes used to advertise back in the 20's and 30's that they would pay you a dollar for every knot you were able to find in the lumber they used to construct your home, but now....

At any rate, this old growth wood that is at the bottom of lakes and rivers has become quite prized for high end furniture, musical instruments and other applications where modern lumber does not cut it (*Snicker*), so developing robotics like this should have quite the payoff.

Re:Old growth lumber

[twigles]

Hey if it's old growth at least any project to cut it down will have Bush's support!

Re:Old growth lumber

[Stiletto]

Well of course the Bushes support cutting down tall trees. They crowd out all the sunlight...

[duck]

Re:Old growth lumber

[mr_infiniti]

While I suppose you mean well, "slow-growing lumber" is caused by improper soils and site conditions (ie. north slope of hills)among other factors, including species, of course. Trees that grow fast are in proper soils and on sunny, (southern) slopes.

Old growth lumber is a decadent, unnatural forest, that is caused by man supressing forest fires for the last 100 years, which is nature's only way of renewing a forest, believe-it-or-not. Cones won't open, releasing seeds, unless under extreme heat.

Old growth lumber, at the bottom of a lake, is going to rot, and is subject to parasites - ask the Japanese this. They tried to store logs underwater and found them infested with bugs when they brought them up.

Re:Old growth lumber

[BrewerDude]

Very interesting.

This is probably just my ignorance, but I'm surprised that that wood is actually usable after it has been submereged for so long. Doesn't it rot or become otherwise compromised? Or, is that a slow enough process that there's still plenty of good wood inside the logs?

Re:Old growth lumber

[bkhl]

Also, they are a must-have for any Bond villain.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Oddly enough, the article provides the answer to your question:

Trees left standing in flooded forests die, but they do not rot because the water keeps out oxygen. Worldwide, some 200 million trees are thought to be standing on the floor of hydropower reservoirs.

"Provided its been in cold, close to anaerobic conditions, wood from submerged trees actually can be in very good condition indeed," says Rorke Bryan, dean of the faculty of forestry at the University of Toronto.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Suppafly]

Old growth lumber, at the bottom of a lake, is going to rot, and is subject to parasites - ask the Japanese this. They tried to store logs underwater and found them infested with bugs when they brought them up.

What are the upside to storing wood underwater? I can't think of any good reason to store wood underwater.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry about the AC, but I'd rather not wait to get to my own system:

You obviously don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

Old growth forrests around here are HUNDREDS of years old. Kind of hard to get that way due to 100 years of firefighting.

Also, this wood is in great shape if it is under enough water. You go deep enough, and it's pretty lifeless. I have a picture frame I made out of summerged old growth. It's some of the nicese stuff around.

Re:Old growth lumber

[iminplaya]

Also, they are a must-have for any Bond villain.

But the helicopter can be submerged only once.

Re:Old growth lumber

[crackshoe]

How bout how much on-land space you have? japan is pretty f'ing tiny.

Re:Old growth lumber

[shadowbearer]

This isn't new, either. There have been operations going on to recover a lot of timber from Lake Superior, among others.

There is a lot of well-preserved old-growth timber in these places that is economically worth logging.

Somewhere around here I have a couple photocopies of those old Aladdin advertisements :)

SB

Re:Old growth lumber

[Rudolfo]

Old growth lumber is a decadent, unnatural forest, that is caused by man supressing forest fires for the last 100 years, which is nature's only way of renewing a forest, believe-it-or-not. Cones won't open, releasing seeds, unless under extreme heat.

Uh ... most old growth forests by definition are over a hundred and fifty years old, existing way before fire suppression. With your logic you can't explain the existence of all those 400 year old trees unless you have Native American firefighters.

Some trees do require fire for their cones to release their seeds, but there are many that don't. In fact, most trees in the Pacific Northwest don't (at least on the west side of the Cascades) - forest fires are extremely uncommon due to the wet climate.

Seattle was covered with old growth forest when the settlers arrived in the 1850s. That certainly was the natural state of the forests. There are only a few old growth trees left within the city.

Re:Old growth lumber

[_Sharp'r_]

Right, because after all, the U.S. Agriculture Department says America has 749 million acres of forestland. In 1920, we had 735 million acres of forest.

Only 7% of current U.S. forestland has been planted by man, so I suppose that only leaves 687 million acres of old growth forest. Yep, sure sounds like it's almost all gone.

Re:Old growth lumber

[mr_infiniti]

Old growth forests around here are HUNDREDS of years old. Kind of hard to get that way due to 100 years of firefighting. Old growth trees are rotten inside. They are quite often hollow, yet still standing and still producing needles. When a forest fire burns through, these trees are the least able to resist stress. A forest fire 100 years ago would have finished them off. By preventing fires, we've produced "museum" forests, that rob the understory of light, thus preventing new growth. Granted, they could already have 100-200 years old, but most conifers only mature at around 100 years, again, depending on soils and site conditions. Those same trees you speak of, probably would not be here today, if we didn't suppress forest fires. Also, this wood is in great shape if it is under enough water. You go deep enough, and it's pretty lifeless I agree, to some extent. Cut a plant, put its stem in water and it will still survive and even grow - provided there is adequate oxygen in the water, etc. But as anyone who has tried this knows, it's a short-lived, fragile existance. The tree can no longer absorb micro-nutrients through its roots. As I said, the Japanese bought lots of Canadian logs in the 90's, stored them underwater, and found them infested with bugs when they brought them up. Can't argue with facts.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't it have to be stagnant water, so there's no O2?

Re:Old growth lumber

[c4miles]

I'd guess that compared to air, where O2 is floating around for the taking, removing it from its relatively meagre solution in water provides a significant energy barrier for organisms. If so, submerging wood won't prevent the decay process, but it will slow it considerably.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

A great example of why we need a "-1, WRONG" moderation choice.

If you read the article you will see that wood submerged in cold, anaerobic conditions does not rot. Even in relatively warm, aerobic conditions storage is possible - read about the medieval method of cutting and preparing timber for an English Yew longbow, to see just one example.

As others have said, you do not understand "old growth" at all.

Forest renewal in the absence of fire, is, depending on species, quite normal.

What Japanese? Who tried to store logs underwater? What bugs? Could those bugs live in anaerobic conditions? (you'll need to look up that big word!)

You are an ignoramus.

Re:Old growth lumber

[craXORjack]

Wood can stay preserved for thousands of years underwater. Take a look at this page which talks about the anaerobic deep water wrecks found in the black sea which was a large freshwater lake until a few thousand years ago. The flooding of that region is suspected to be the genesis of the biblical flood story (and of the Gilgamesh legend before it was co-opted by the Israelites) In particular look at the "mesolithic settlement" link where the same man that found the Titanic discovered a 7000 year old house which predates the epic flood and is very well preserved.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Dead != rotten. Fool!

Re:Old growth lumber

[spickus]

"Can't argue with facts"

Nope, sure can't

Re:Old growth lumber

[Fear the Clam]

Fire insurance premiums decrease?

Re:Old growth lumber

[PitaBred]

I'd be willing to bet the Japanese don't have many very deep, very cold lakes that the wood was at the bottom of. The cold, fresh water is what preserves the wood.

Re:Old growth lumber

[mr_infiniti]

This is not just "my logic", forestry is a science. Are you saying fire is not Mother Nature's main mechanism for renewing a forest? Are you saying 100 years of playing God with forest fire has not screwed up any ecosystems anywhere? Please elaborate. The US, in the past - maybe even still, had "Let Burn" policies (ie. Yellowstone) recognizing that fire suppression does indeed create unnatural forests.

Some trees do require fire for their cones to release their seeds, but there are many that don't.

Many that don't?? Many?? Such as?

To be fair, he's right to a limited extent. A cone soaked in a puddle or pond for extended periods will eventually sprout. A cone crushed by some force will also release it's seed. You can probably come up with other methods even. But Mother Nature designed forests for fire to be the main source of mass renewal.

Uh ... most old growth forests by definition are over a hundred and fifty years old

Most conifers don't even mature till about 100 years old, on average, and for most deciduous, it's more like 120-140 years, but it all depends on the species and their site conditions. Poplar, Aspen, etc. are considered hardwoods and yet can be mature after only 70-80 years. After reaching maturity, just like any other organism, you included, they begin to decay and it's all downhill after that.

With your logic you can't explain the existence of all those 400 year old trees unless you have Native American firefighters.

Again, its not just "my logic". Forestry is a science that's hundreds of years old. In North America, outside the unique ecosystem of the Pacific Northwest/Cascadia, where do trees live to 400 years? There's an area in the Niagara Escarpment where the acidic soils have created stunted, dwarf trees (eastern cedar, I believe)that can be 1000 years old, but this is certainly the exception and not the rule. Because they are not esthetically pleasing to the eye, no one except scientists really care.

In fact, most trees in the Pacific Northwest don't (at least on the west side of the Cascades) - forest fires are extremely uncommon due to the wet climate.

Look at a map of North America. Look how puny the "west side of Cascadia" is compared with North America. Your rebuttal is based on your knowledge of a small, unique ecosystem.

forest fires are extremely uncommon due to the wet climate.

Yeah, except I do live "on the west side of Cascadia" you speak of. I admit, it rains from November to March, but we couldn't light campfires all last summer as we could have caused a *gasp* forest fire, the bush was so dry. Thousands of people were evacuated from their homes "in Cascadia" last year, due to forest fires. Or don't you remember this? Care to wager it'll be the same again this summer?

Re:Old growth lumber

[edhall]

Even away from the coasts old-growth trees thrived because the larger, healthy trees typically survived the fires. One issue with fire-suppression is that it allows so much fuel accumulation that even the big trees die when fire eventually happens.

-Ed

Re:Old growth lumber

[MrLint]

Actually it has been rumors that all of the greatest Stradivarius violins were made from wood store underwater. something about anaerobic bacteria something causing the wood to be extra resonant, or something.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Forestry is a science about which you know very little. But don't stop! There are few things more entertaining than watching a stubborn moron defending his mistakes in the face of all evidence to the contrary. You're just an environmental vandal who uses his imagined knowledge to justofy doing whatever the fuck he likes.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual /v olume_2/quercus/macrocarpa.htm

http://biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/sc ie nce/fire-prm.html

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2120/n3_v79/ 20 608552/p1/article.jhtml

I'm sure you have reasons why all these sources are wrong...

Re:Old growth lumber

[Imperator]

The water keeps out oxygen? How do the fish breathe?

Re:Old growth lumber

[desplesda]

But what about the native life in these underwater forests! Save the sea monkeys!

Re:Old growth lumber

[Skjellifetti]

Old growth lumber is a decadent, unnatural forest, that is caused by man supressing forest fires for the last 100 years, which is nature's only way of renewing a forest, believe-it-or-not. Cones won't open, releasing seeds, unless under extreme heat.

That is true for some forests and some species of pines in arid mountains out in the US West, but not at all true for the near rainforests composed of hardwood found in, say, the Smokey Mts. Most of the Eastern US before the arrival of Europeans was also a dark old-growth hardwood forest that behaved nothing like what you have described.

Old growth lumber, at the bottom of a lake, is going to rot, and is subject to parasites - ask the Japanese this. They tried to store logs underwater and found them infested with bugs when they brought them up.

Again, check your facts. Lake Superior is full of old growth logs lost when Northern MN, WI, and the Upper Penisula of MI were first logged. Those logs survived quite well thanks to the cold and limited O2. They are being hauled to the surface today and are being sold at a large premium to musical instrument makers and folks like Bill Gates for use as wood paneling. They have an incredible fine grain that cannot be found in wood harvested from today's forests since the wood grew so slowly due those decadent, unnatural forest conditions that makes up your standard Eastern old growth hardwood forest.

Re:Old growth lumber

[CheeseTroll]

Plants that grow quickly are weak and relatively worthless for construction (unless you're using a thatched roof, I suppose).

Also, don't confuse "slow-growth" with "old-growth" trees, as they are not always the same thing. Trees, like most living things, grow fastest up to a certain age range, then slow down. They keep growing, of course, but their slower growth translates into a tighter grain of the wood, which makes it far stronger than that in the center. So even relatively soft woods like pine are incredibly strong if they're harvested from old trees.

It's more profitable for lumber and paper companies to harvest the timber when it's young to reap the greatest amount of volume in the shortest amount of time. Too bad, because most people today probably don't realize the difference from modern lumber. My house was built in 1899, and it's obvious which lumber is original and which was added during remodeling even without looking. The old stuff makes me wish for a diamond-tipped drill bit, or at least a more powerful drill.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Derg]

I would think it would have something to do with the fact that fish have specially evolved organs... theres a big word there.. Gills... oooh... trees, the last time I checked, dont have these, and as such, cannot absorb the oxygen in the water in the same way the fish do. The fish actively pursue the oxygen, the trees just ... dont

Re:Old growth lumber

[Skjellifetti]

Are you saying 100 years of playing God with forest fire has not screwed up any ecosystems anywhere?

No, we are just saying that your understanding of the science of forestry is pretty limited.

In North America, outside the unique ecosystem of the Pacific Northwest/Cascadia, where do trees live to 400 years?

Multi-100 year-old trees were quite common in the Smokey Mts prior to the 1920s when the loggers came in and took them down. There are still a few to be found if you know where to look.

Re:Old growth lumber

[SatanicPuppy]

Most places there are significant and strict laws dealing with the BMPs ("Best Management Practices" which are the Gov't regs on lumber growth/harvesting) about how much wood you can cut in or near water because the eco impact is so much higher in terms of silt and keystone habitat desruction.

The only use I can see for thise would be to clear underwater obstructions in waterways.

Re:Old growth lumber

[bailster]

& ideally they would also have frikkin laser beams on their frikkin heads.

Re:Old growth lumber

[johnjay]

A friend of mine used to make acoustic guitars out of lumber recovered from a 100+ year old shipwreck. The guitars went for a good price because the wood was apparently much better quality than could be found normally.

That guitar shop kept selling "shipwreck" guitars long after they ran out of the original wood. Not exactly the most ethical bunch...

Re:Old growth lumber

[Iamnoone]

I believe it is theoried that some of the secrets used to make fine violins or other instruments, involved some kinds of aging under/in/around water esp. saltwater. But I believe the secrets are lost and attempts to build instruments with the same acoustic characteristics have failed.

Re:Old growth lumber

['nother poster]

I wonder if the OP even knows what causes knots in wood. Here's a hint... Branches.

Now, sarcasm aside, the biggest difference in lumber today and lumber 70-100 years ago is the type of trees. Most of the lumber today IS from fast growing trees, but the knots are due to the fact the the fast growing pines and furs used for a lot of the lumber also have a large number of branches, that appear early in the trees growth. Therefore you have knots. Breed a fast growing tree that does not have the large number of early growth branches, and Weyrhauser and a few other companies will pay you a fortune.

Re:Old growth lumber

[mosb1000]

"Plants that grow quickly are weak and relatively worthless for construction"

I whish this were true, but have you noticed the ammout of "lumber" in modern houses that is made of glued and pressed wood chips. It's even common to use pressed materials in beams now (instead of just pannels).

I used to live in a hose that was built in 1949, and the beams in it were STRONG. The 2 by 4's in it actually had those dimensions. Also, it had 1/2 in thich teak floors. That's hard wood.

I wish they'd stop building houses of of wood. I'm sure that with a few billion dollars in research, we could develope inexpensive ways of building custom houses from concrete and steel. I think I'd much rather live in a strong, perminant building than a flimsy, cheep building like the ones being built right now. My apartment feels like I could knock it over if I pushed against it hard enough. Oh well, maybe in a few more years they'll be able to build the kind of houses I want.

Re:Old growth lumber

[mr_infiniti]

I'm sure you have reasons why all these sources are wrong...

I sure do.

None of your links are valid.

Re:Old growth lumber

[dnahelix]

From The First Link:
Bur oaks bear seed up to an age of 400 years, older than reported for any other American oak. The minimum seed-bearing age is about 35 years, and the optimum is 75 to 150 years

"Bur oak is said to have reached a height of 52 m (170 ft) and a d.b.h. of 213 cm (84 in) in the lower Ohio Valley. On the better sites, mature trees generally grow 24 to 30 in (80 to 100 ft) tall, 91 to 122 cm (36 to 48 in) in d.b.h., and live 200 to 300 years. Characteristically, they have a massive, clear trunk and a broad, open crown of stout branches."


from The Second Link:
In the early 1900's, "mature" ponderosa pines were defined as 200 years old, 300 year old trees were considered "veterans." Today, the Forest Service defines 100 year old trees "old growth."

By 1962, when the Forest Service began region- wide surveys, the forests were already highly degraded, the very largest trees being already logged off. The rule of early forestry was to exclusively and rapidly cut all the largest trees (Drake 1910, Woolsey 1911, Moore 1912). The large trees were eulogized as far back as 1891


The Third Link:

Re:Old growth lumber

[evilad]

Qualify every categorical statement you have made, and you will be telling the truth. As it stands, you look like an ignoramus.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Imperator]

But that's not how rot works. It's the exposure to oxygen that counts. If I leave an iron rod in water, it's not actively pursuing oxygen, but it sure will rust.

Re:Old growth lumber

[mr_infiniti]

No, we are just saying that your understanding of the science of forestry is pretty limited.

Yeah, I was only born in northern Ontario (the deep, dark bush), and currently live in the Pacific Northwest where I still live in the bush. I have spent a lifetime hunting, fishing and prospecting for recreation. I worked in sawmills and as a mineral surveyor as a teenager. I later worked for many years with the government on developing land-resource information systems where all my peers were foresters, biologists, technicians, and meant I had to liase with both US and Canadian Federal government land management professionals, mostly foresters. Trust me, to develop a decision-support system for forest management/integrated resource managemnt, you learn a lot about the science, especially as it means acquiring the data from real foresters.

My opinions are based on the science I learned from all these people, and surprisingly, they're all in agreement. And your credentials are what? You live on the 20th floor of some building and go to work on the 17th floor of some other building? And pass a tree on the route in between?

I didn't write any of these points to create an argument, to be called a moron or be told my knowledge of forestry is pretty limited, because it is not. I submitted because, as always, I had some facts I wanted to share. I didn't expect all these close-minded, emotional responses.

Multi-100 year-old trees were quite common in the Smokey Mts prior to the 1920s when the loggers came in and took them down. There are still a few to be found if you know where to look.

I'm not disputing there are can be multi-hundred year old trees, as I even offered an example of 1000 year old trees from the Niagara Escarpment. I should have said "commonly" live to 400 years. Most people don't live to be 100, but that doesn't mean they can't or that it's impossible. Look at a map of North America: the largest contiguous forests of the continent are the boreal forest of the north; jack pine, spruce, eastern red cedar, white birch, etc. Everything I stated in my previous submissions will apply to these trees, and most other trees commonly found throughout North America, not just some isolated watershed in your county. While no one has mentioned it yet, I'm open minded enough to accept that the Florida Everglades probably has some trees that are pretty wild and unique, but that doesn't mean it's common, and I admit I know nothing of them.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a tree called Arbutus, that is really something unique, but I don't expect it's attributes to be considered common for a tree.

Some references:

Boreal Forest: http://www.radford.edu/~swoodwar/CLASSES/GEOG235/b iomes/taiga/taiga.html http://www.sierraclub.org/ecoregions/boreal.asp

Forest Renewal: http://www.birchbrook.com/fire.html http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/is bnInquiry.asp?sourceid=00395996645644787198&btob=Y &endeca=1&isbn=1559638834&itm=1

Arbutus: http://www.gulfislands.com/foxglove/barn082801.htm http://web.mala.bc.ca/firstnations/doris/treemala. htm

...and these are vallid links

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Look Mr. outdoorsman - it was a trick question. I knew you couldn't read those articles without having them printed in 24 point and mumbling over them slowly while tracing each word with a finger. Thankfully there are those here who can, who have pointed out the pertinent bits. Now it will only take you a couple of days to read those parts rather than the month it would otherwise have taken, but one fact is clear:

You are supremely ignorant about forests in all respects except those that involve you personally. So stop pretending, ok? It's just sad. Too many people here are taking you apart with ease and mirth, and it isn't pretty.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it's not really the lumber that provides the strength there (not that I'd call MDF, particle board or other conglomerates "lumber") - it's the glue. But I'm having trouble believing you've seen actual structural beams made of these materials.

Steel can be used for framing houses, BHP in Australia produces a full range of steel framing products in stainless. Why isn't it used more often? People want cheap.

If you're in California you might have a flimsy house because they stand up to earth tremors better. Think flexible reed vs. mighty oak.

Re:Old Growth Lumber

[AnotherFreakboy]

with trolling motors for propulsion

I knew it! There are robot trolls on slashdot.

Re:Old growth lumber

[strider_starslayer]

I think you have missed the point- you took the rather obviously incorrect assumption that old growth lumber is unnatural and caused by human intervention; But the very nature of old growth (being more then 400 years old) precludes that

Then you set up this strawman argument (Which don't get me wrong is as far as I can tell truthful and accurate) which dose not address they key issue:

Old Growth lumber is not unnatural and has nothing to do with human intervention.
There now that I've said that; I'd also like to point out the difference between softwoods and hardwoods (Which is an odd difference, because balsa wood is considered a hardwood!); Hardwoods traditionally do not require fire to spread because they bear seeds by themselves (Walnuts, oaks, mustards, chesnut, balsa) these trees seed without the aid of fire, and are in the catagory of hardwoods. Softwoods (woods traditionally having a cone; like pine, spruce, blue spruce) do extensively use fire in there spreading methods, but otehr softwoods (willow for instance) will spread just fine without the help of fire.

Re:Old growth lumber

[anagama]

• Many that don't?? Many?? Such as?

Let me guess, you're a transplant from Arizona. Here in the Pacific Northwest, I can't think of a single connifer that requires fire to spit seeds from cones. Douglas fir, hemlock, western red cedar, spruce - none of these need fire to drop seeds.

• Again, its not just "my logic". Forestry is a science that's hundreds of years old. In North America, outside the unique ecosystem of the Pacific Northwest/Cascadia, where do trees live to 400 years?

Ever play the game of "go". The best boards are made of "kaya", a Japanese connifer. For the grain to be right, it takes 500 year old trees.

Hey - I'm not even a forester and I could come up with a non Pacific Northwest multihundred year old tree. If you want to start betting that old trees are anomolous to this region, let's get a botanist involved. Bring your car title!

• Yeah, except I do live "on the west side of Cascadia" you speak of

In that case, why don't you stop at the rest area going northbound on I-5 near smokey point. Go stand inside the stump there - you know, the one with the cutout big enough to drive pickup through. Or go into the mountains and look at all the old growth stumps surrounded by second growth. Somehow, even without misguided fire supression, those old trees grew and covered everything. They didn't dissapear because people supressed forest fires.

And I think it is a bit of miscalculation to use the phrase "puny little region" when referring to the temperate forests west of the Cascades and Sierras. Really, you should be looking at this as a region extending from N. CA deep into Alaska - a couple thousand miles at least. Oh and let's not forget that like the PNW, Chile also has temperate rain forests. In fact, our own PNW homegrown Trillium Corporation is busy cutting them down right now.

In any event, your notion that the reason we don't have lot's of 400 year old trees around, is because for the last 100 years we've been fighting fires is simply preposterous. We don't have the around because we cut them all down.

Re:Old growth lumber

[arivanov]

black sea

Black see under 200 m (measured 20 years ago, now the border is shallower due to pollution) has 0% oxygen and more then 0.5 H2S. It is not just as anaerobic as water environment ca get. It is also a strong acidic redox enironment. As are result you should not equate Black Sea with any other sea or water reservoir.

Actually there are some problem with this article:

Many countries did massive treefelling and clearing to avoid wastage before building reservoirs. Bulgaria definitely did so for the Arda Cascade (aka the biggest weapon of mass destruction in the world), Russia did it for some of their reservoirs. Italy did it as well. I would expect other countries to have done it too.

After being submerged for more then several years wood does not float. So after you cut the tree it will happily fall on the bottom.

Re:Old growth lumber

[hplasm]

wish they'd stop building houses of of wood. I'm sure that with a few billion dollars in research, we could develope inexpensive ways of building custom houses from concrete and steel.

See my forthcoming patent "Brick".

Re:Old growth lumber

[pjt33]

Are you saying that forests don't exist outside the US and Australia? That would seem to be the implication, because those are the only areas where forest fires occur naturally.

Re:Old growth lumber

[JohnFluxx]

It's always dangerous when you use sarcasm, because if you're wrong or have missed something, then you can look really stupid.

And guess what - you dumb ass.

Re:Old growth lumber

[kelvinq]

There are almost no fishes at such depth. Dissolved oxygen is in such low concentrations that unless it's especially evolved, else it simply couldn't survive. It's also almost pitch black. Few life forms could exist, that's why those wood are of such high quality.

Re:Old growth lumber

[davidtupper]

Actually, Edison did just this in the early 20th century. He made massive multipart forms and poured several complete houses including trim such as picture frames. It may actually be more economical today than when he tried but that is outside my experience. See this link for one view of the experiment http://flyingmoose.org/truthfic/edison.htm

Re:Old growth lumber

[gilmour14]

What's new is the chainsaw wielding submarine, not that the logs are preserved under water. The logs on the bottom of the Great Lakes were already cut down, but sank while floating them across.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Ayaress]

It's not like we're slashing down an actual forest. We've already drowned this one, so even if we drain the reservoir, all we'll have is a bunch of rotten trunks standing in the middle of nowhere.

Speaking of which, dead wood that's been underwater that long is pretty likely to be heavily rotted. It would have very limited applications.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Ayaress]

Wixom Lake is a dam reservoir in Michigan, near Gladwin. It has dead trees in it, too (heck, I hulled my boat on one when the water levels were down about 15 feet a couple years ago). A few years ago, they dredged it out because sandbars were starting to choke off the main waterways.

They pulled up a lot of trees that had been submerged when the Wolverine dam was built, plus a bunch of boats, a couple ice shanties (no ice fishermen that I heard of) and something like fifteen cars that had broken through the ice at some point.

None of it was in good condition. The only good wood they pulled up was debris from docks that people left in through the winter (when the ice starts melting, it'll sometimes break them away from the seawall and out into the lake. When the ice melts, the dock gets dropped into the water. The concrete and metal ancorings usually make them sink), and that's all treated lumber. Trees aren't weather sealed or pressure treated.

Re:Old growth lumber

[F34nor]

Ok you're using some correct facts here by the thesis is just flat out wrong.

Old growth forests are forests that have reached a climax community. There are no fire, growth speed, or logging issues related to that state. It's just the end of the line for that system. There were old growth forests before the white people got here and if it was cost effective there would managed old growth forests again. Its just that at about 70 years the cost benefit analysis says cut now.

About growth speed, you might be able to get a tighter grain if you limit growth speed but old growth is not dependent on the speed at which the trees grew.

You are certainly correct about fire and cones, the only time fire is catastrophic is when the forest is too dense, there is too much underbrush, you have disease or insect attack, or you are in sever drought condition and you get a crown fire.

With respect to the Japanese example, its only an example and clearly unimportant because they have been doing this for a long time, this device is just speeding up the process. Also slow growing old growth forests growing on the north side of a mountain are subject to rot and parasites too.

Re:Old growth lumber

[F34nor]

My favorite example of this is when the ELF burned down a hybrid cottonwood poplar farm because they were "frakentrees," or genetically engineered.

Fucking retards. The weed they smoke is a hybrid too, indica + sativa. If it weren't for hybrids those fucking hippies would have a frost resistant strain to grow outdoors north of the 45th parallel.

I did applaud them for burning down the parking lot of SUV's, nothing like trying to stop air pollution by burning rubber, plastic and god knows what else in a car fire.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the most hysterically wrong post I have seen in a long time on Slashdot. Congratulations, mr infiniti. You are either a masterful troll, a complete moron, or both.

Old growth trees are rotten inside.

Uh huh. Yeah. That's why the timber industry screams bloody murder if environmentalists start pushing to have an area of old growth forest put off limits - it's because the timber industry loves harvesting timber from trees that "are rotten inside". Congratulations on that stuning piece of logical deduction, you moron!

I agree, to some extent. Cut a plant, put its stem in water and it will still survive and even grow - provided there is adequate oxygen in the water, etc. But as anyone who has tried this knows, it's a short-lived, fragile existance. The tree can no longer absorb micro-nutrients through its roots.

I am left in awe ... by your complete cluelessness. Do you really believe that trees continue to grow once they've been submerged in a lake? What planet do you come from? The reason - if you care to be introduced to even a hint of the reality of life here on earth - that trees are well preserved at the bottom of "deep enough" lakes is that there is little to no oxygen down there. We're not talking about a vibrant ocean here - we're talking about the deep, stagnant depths of flooded valleys. And without oxygen, the majority of rot-inducing organisms cannot survive - hence the preservation effect.

You really are the most stunning moron I've read a post from here in a loooong time. And that's saying a lot.

Re:Old growth lumber

[ejort79]

We could just print our houses

Re:Old growth lumber

[SoupGuru]

Dammit, not much more needs to be said on this topic but as a forester in training I've got to jump on one of the few topics on /. that will ever deal with forestry.

A couple more points to consider:

- Forest fires as they happened hundreds of years ago rarely killed healthy trees. Sure fire was important for the propagation of conifer species in many habitats, but the trees developed means to survive fires (thick bark, no low branches). Even with fire, stands survived and continued to grow. It's only been in the past few decades of fire suppression that fuel loads built up to such an extent that fires would burn with the intensity to kill whole stands of trees and denude whole mountain sides.

- There is some debate about the extent of habitat modification the Native Americans were doing pre-Columbian. I've heard theories that our midwestern prairies (that aren't there anymore, of course) depended on large part to fires set regularly by Native Americans.

- Old growth is the typical "climax" of any forest succession. Things build to the point of old growth, which is a basically self-sustaining ecosystem, until something catasptrophic wipes it out and the process starts over again. A closed canopy system lets very little grow under ituntil a tree gets too old, dies, leaves a "gap" in the canopy, and allows enough sunlight to reach the floor so another tree can grow in it's place. This, of course, takes many many years.

As is always the case, I fall flat on coming up with a strong conclusion... so I'll just end abruptly

Re:Old growth lumber

[Imperator]

We're talking about *shallow* depths. If it were that deep, it would be very expensive to build submarines to go down there. Also, there's plenty of life at just about every depth. It's just that we rarely see the life in the deep ocean, because we don't go there often.

Re:Old growth lumber

[ACPosterChild]

I saw a special (probably PBS) where a guy found a bunch of wood in Lake Erie of all places. Turns out, it's great for violins and high-priced furniture and it made him rich. The special mentioned the lost art of preparing wood for instruments, but mentioned that the Lake Erie stuff was supposed to be some of the best, so they think the real secret is simply long-term storage under water.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Woody77]

You have to go deep, and have cold water. Someone claimed the salvage rights to old-growth hardwood that's at the bottom of Lake Superior, and has been harvesting it with similar equipment to this.

He's rich, rich, now. These were all old-grown hardwood that was felled, but became water-logged and sank before being floated to the mills. The water is so cold and devoid of life that the wood hasn't rotted, because nothing is there to make it rot (no bacteria/fungai to break it down).

Re:Old growth lumber

[ACPosterChild]

1) the "Let it Burn" policies have only recently been *proven* to be a good thing. Like you yourself said, fire suppression (sufficiently advanced for realy fighting forest fires) has only been around ~100 years. How long do you think it takes to see how a sustained forest fire suppression effort affects the forests?

2) As for trees that don't require fire for their cones to release seeds: All non-coniferous trees. Secondly, you're demanding examples, but don't provide any yourself. Third, you telling me that (nearly) all conifers *require* a fire before they'll be able to grow? So if a disease takes out a patch, there will be no new conifers there until the next fire? I'm taking a SWAG here, but I think that a good number of cones drying out over the summer dehydrate enough to make them split open.

[A funny thing about conifers is that their needle droppings turn the soil more acidic than their seeds like, and they need lots of sun to grow, which means that new conifers have a hard time growing when there are old ones around. But, the seedlings grow fast in a hospitable environment. Thus, they tend to quickly fill in cleared areas, such as after major fires or disease. Deciduous, on the other hand, prefer shade when growing and don't mind more acidic soil. So, decidous trees are kind of like a parasite to the conifers, and after a conifer forest starts geting old (~200-300 years), the desiduos start moving in and take over pretty quick. That's why all truly *old* forests are decidous. I guess conifers are kind of like the Forest Phoenix :) ]

3) Trees live to be 400 lots of places (here in the midwest, anyway), if people don't cut them down. There's quite a few in our metroparks in Cleveland. I've seen them in Pennsylvaina and surrounding states, too. Healthy adult trees can survive forest fires; you can see the evidence in the rings. And there a *lot* that are in the 200-300 range that would survive a decent fire. [ ~1ft diameter per 100 years of age is a decent rule of thumb. ]

Re:Old growth lumber

[Woody77]

Actually, they are. laminated chip-board beams. Scary, but it has a purpose. The fibers run at all angles, providing a great deal of strength, and the relatively short length of the fibers is compensated for by the glue used to hold them together. Most wood glues are actually stronger than the wood fibers themselves.

I do woodworking, and have broken apart good joints to test them out (practicing). On a good joint, the glue pulls the wood apart. In a laminated, chip-board I-beam, the glue is STRONG, and the resultant beams are very lightweight and strong (and relatively thin, too).

Although, my redwood 4x8s in my house are plenty strong/lightweight. Just too bad it's hard to find the trees big enough to make those. Give my property (6 acres) another 50 years or so, and I'll have a crop of trees big enough for that. Redwoods grow FAST.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Woody77]

robotic submarines aren't nearly as expensive as manned ones, for those kinds of depths, and we're only talking a few thousand feet or so (max).

Re:Old growth lumber

[ACPosterChild]

Umm, trees absorb carbon dioxide and emit oxygen. So yea, the trees just... don't actively pursue the oxygen.

To say nothing of the photosynthesis trees use to produce energy.

I honestly don't know the point/seriousness of the post, but what I want to know is what fucktard modded this insightful?

Re:Old growth lumber

[jbayes]

Right, because after all, the U.S. Agriculture Department says America has 749 million acres of forestland. In 1920, we had 735 million acres of forest.

Isn't it convenient how your argument makes so much sense when you leave out that pesky "old growth" in front of "forest" when referring to the DoA statistics?

Even the article which you yourself link to acknowledges that much of that 749 million acres of "forestland" is actually reclaimed farmland, not old-growth forest at all.

I'm getting really tired of hearing this "argument".

Re:Old growth lumber

[Derg]

amazing isnt it? even I realized the stupidity of what I said, albeit in hindsight.

mods + crack = my comments modded insightful. woo hoo!

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Old Growth forests are/were the "original" forests. They are absolutely NOT decadent, unnatural forests. One does not get an "old growth" forest in 100 years. Maybe in 7-800 years. By definition, old growth forests have never been logged, and the prime trees are definitely more than 100 years old. For Douglas Fir forests, think more along the lines of 1000 years old. Once old growth timber has been logged, it won't be that way again.

The human replanting process produces "monoculture" stands of trees. We've all seen these. All the trees are densely packed and are all the same height, and pretty uniform trunk diameters. THESE are what are unnatural.

If you've ever walked through a real old growth forest, you will see that, while one or two species might dominate, there are other tree species that also grow, and that there are trees in all stages of maturity growing in the forest.

Only some kinds of trees need fires to force their seeds, like Ponderosa pine. Many of the other predominant lumber trees used in the US do not.

But I live in the great Northwet, land of Hemlock, Douglas Fir, Western Red Cedar and the occaisional larch or spruce forest. These forests do NOT depend on forest fires for regeneration. On the eastern slopes of the Cascades, which are more Ponderosa pine (and drier), as well as most of the Rockies, fires do help seeds germinate from various species of trees.

As far as old growth timber sitting at the bottoms of lakes, there are several hundred/thousand large, old-growth logs in the bottom of Lake Washington, which are successfully being pulled up and milled, having sat there for quite some time (read, hundreds of years. There was some seismic event involved in how they got there).

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

2) You should go to Olympic National Park (or anywhere in the pacific northwet). Old growth forests are a mix of coniferous (douglas fir, hemlocks, spruces, cedars) as well as deciduous (alders, maples, especially big leaf maples). In fact, for some species, an old growth tree falling over acts as a "nurse" log that allows similar-species seedlings to grow up and around, using the decaying log for extra nutrition.

For most of the other coniferous forests I've seen (OK, western US), there are no deciduous forests. Deciduous trees cannot compete except near water (cottonwood) or certain other trees (aspen) that can coexist with pine trees (hey, both are in the poplar family...) or other coniferous trees.

The forestification process in the northwest is now:

grass/plants -> shrubs, e.g. himilayan blackberry -> western red alder -> douglas fir.

But then there is the fact that some deciduous trees, like certain oaks and walnuts, the decomposition of their roots and leaves leaves compounds in the soil that are toxic to most plants, and so they essentially have a zone of no-undergrowth.

For conifers, while the falling needles do tend to increase the acidity of the soil, to the tree's liking, they also do not decay very fast, and can create deep impenetrable mats that no seed can get through to the soil or germinate in.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

...and driving down the highways here in Oregon, I wonder if I'm seeing some of these hybrid poplar trees growing as part of the researcher's stealth test plots along roadsides, etc.

For the unclued, these trees are like cottonwoods or other poplars, except their leaves are about 4x the size at least, and they grow about 4x faster than regular fast-growing poplars, like Lombardi poplars. There are a couple of researchers at OSU working on these, and because of the ELF attack at the Univ. of Washington, they made their research plots much more...discreet (there was an article in the Salem, OR paper last summer about their research).

These trees are grown for pulp or particle board, not for lumber.

In the southern US, they tend to grow white pines in the same fashion, with the same goal: 10-15 years from planting to harvesting.

The problem is not hybridization, which is arguably, a "natural" process. The problem is genetically engineered plants and trees.

Re:Old growth lumber

[Suppafly]

Yeh, but its not great because it has been underwater is it? I was under the impression that the wood was great because it was old growth stuff that didn't have knots that newer-softer woods have.

Re:Old growth lumber

[craXORjack]

Black see under 200 m (measured 20 years ago, now the border is shallower due to pollution) has 0% oxygen and more then 0.5 H2S

That is interesting. What is the cause of the hydrogen sulfide? I know the area is geologically active. Is the H2S being released from black smokers or something similar? If so, what was the previously existing lake like, could it have supported a diverse eco-system?

Re:Old growth lumber

[paganizer]

I, Personally, think you might possibly know something about conifers.
From where I am setting, RIGHT THIS SECOND, I can see a 5' diameter sycamore that is old enough to have stopped seeding, which indicates that it's probably in the 150-250 year-old range; There are a variety of white oaks ranging in size from 1' to 4' that would probably place them in the 50-400 year range, and hickories bigger than that.
I wouldn't doubt that what you are talking about is possibly applicable to conifers, but you seem to be unable to comprehend the existance if anything else; trees brought up from under Kentucky lake which have been down there for about 50+ years, HARDWOODS, are highly prized by local mills.
I would suggest you check out www.fs.fed.us to learn about hardwoods.

a defense at last!

[everyplace]

Finally, we have a way of defending ourselves against those damn robotic sharks.

Re:a defense at last!

[dgmartin98]

More importantly, we have a defense against sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads.

Re:a defense at last!

[Anonymous Coward]

And the flying ones. Of course, they have their airborne crocodile foes to deal with as well...

Re:a defense at last!

[edo-01]

oh for fucks sake, ENOUGH with that "joke" already. Jesus...

Re:a defense at last!

[UserGoogol]

Dang. I, for one, have already welcomed our robotic shark overloards. Now I'm gonna have to go ahead and apologize to humanity and try to send a fruit basket to the underwater lumberjacks in case I have to welcome them as the overlords. I'm sure they'll accept me. With my Excellent Karma, I'd be able to gather humans into their underwater work camps for them.

Re:a defense at last!

[benchbri]

A winged crocodile is no match for a shark with a jet pack; to believe otherwise would be like believing in the easter bunny or the tooth fairy; childish and immature.

Everyone knows that a flying shark will beat a flying crocodile every time. The reasons are many:

• It is much harder to take flesh out of something that is torpedo-shaped. i.e. The shark has the oppurnuity to go for the crocodile's legs, tail, and even head, all within one fell chomp. The crocodile will have a hard time fitting his entire maw around the trunk of the shark
• Sharks are naturally more active than crocodiles. If a shark stops swimming, he will die. I don't know about you, but the only time I've seen a crocodile move in real life is when the zookeeper throws beef hearts into their cage
• Sharks are endowed with a "sixth sense," which allows them to sense the presence of other animals - (fish, seals, Roy Scheider) - within their proximity. In practice, this is not unlike radar used by today's most advanced fighter aircraft. Crocodiles lack this ability.
• Jetpack is no match for wings, duh.

As I have clearly demonstrated to you, Flying Crocodiles are clearly inferior to a Flying Shark. Anyway, if I, one of the greatest minds of our epoch, didn't believe that a Flying Shark could kick a Flying Crocodile, would I have gotten this sweet ass tattoo?

/hoping this will get on viewer card night...

Re:a defense at last!

[Anonymous Coward]

The International Man of Mystery would not be happy to hear your disdain...

Re:a defense at last!

[ACPosterChild]

A comment about your sig: Oxygen is one of the most corrosive and poisonous substances known ;)

Re:a defense at last!

[UserGoogol]

I've been told that. But it's not an acid, so my point stands.

Re:a defense at last!

[edo-01]

I know... bad day that day - sorry all... :-)

ill be the first

[minus_273]

to welcome out new robot overlords..
Now idot usually make jokes like that, but come on, submarine robots with chainsaws...:-p

Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I sleep all night and float logs to the surface using balloons and a robot chainsaw submarine all day.

No, no... too silly! Stop the post!

Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

[el-spectre]

The syllable count is even ok...

"Ro-bah-tick submarine and I'm Okay..."

Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

[irokitt]

Does that mean you wear suspendies and a bra as well?

Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

[lommer]

It's good to all have a laugh, but I actually know two guys who made a small fortune doing this. I'm from B.C. (west coast of Canada) which has a HUGE forestry industry. A good portion of the logs are hauled down to Vancouver in giant log booms towed by tug-boats. Inevitably, things go wrong and booms get lost, logs sink, get ensnared in cables, or whatever. Just a few months ago I met two guys who set themselves up to do log recovery a few years back. They do all SCUBA work, and basically the go down in places where there's known to be lots of old-growth logs that have sunk. They cut the cables and free up the logs and float them to the surface. Since these logs have been down there for ages, they technically count as salvage. That means these guys now own the logs outright and can sell them directly back to the forestry company. At >$10,000 per tree for those huge old-growth trees, they've actually made some significant coin at it.

The only downside to the work is that it's really dangerous. About a year ago they had an employee who was killed when cables got tangled wrong and the logs unfolded unexpectedly when the airbags were inflated. The guy got crushed between two big logs, and despite rushing him to hospital he died. I guess this is just another industry where robots are taking over profitable jobs that are too dangerous to justify humans doing them.

Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

[Fjord]

"Oh, I'm a robot sub and I'm okay" is another good meter

It's a lumberjack and It's ok

[Zakabog]

It cuts down trees, it skips and jumps, it likes to press wild flowers. It puts on womens clothing, and hangs around in bars.

Re:It's a lumberjack and It's ok

[B3ryllium]

... sand bars?

Geez ...

[B3ryllium]

All it needs now is frickin' laser beams, and it'll be the most EVIL contraption this side of Britney Spears.

Re:Geez ...

[bfg9000]

The evil scientists had originally planned to give Britney laser beams, instead they gave her cannons.

And I am still thanking them for it.

Re:Geez ...

[Lord Kano]

All it needs now is frickin' laser beams, and it'll be the most EVIL contraption this side of Britney Spears.

If you think that big luscious bouncy titties are evil, we all know which team you must be batting for.

LK

I'm having some really, really bad visions...

[barfarf]

I'm having some really weird thoughts of the Underwater Texas Chainsaw Massacre... /obvious and stupid

Re:I'm having some really, really bad visions...

[Anonymous Coward]

But are they as good as that Jesus Chainsaw Massacre movie I saw recently?

Re:I'm having some really, really bad visions...

[chengmi]

Texas. Underwater. Bush. Chased by an underwater chainsaw robot. hehe...

Re:I'm having some really, really bad visions...

[g-san]

my knee jerk vision(tm) was a bunch of tree huggers trying to work out a snorkel system...

How good is the wood like that?

[dealsites]

Is it petrified? I can't imagine soggy wood being to good for anything other than making pulp for paper. I don't want some rotten 2x4's to build a deck. My deck can rot on it's own as it is.

--
Live deal updates from Slickdeals, Bens Bargains, Techbargains, Able Shoppers, Got|Apex and more!

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[ObviousGuy]

According to the article, the trees are deep enough that the water is an anaerobic environment, so the trees die but do not rot as a result of the lack of oxygen.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFA!!! They're only going to use the wood in the ghetto and maybe, just maybe, the barrio.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[tx_kanuck]

actually the wood is very well preserved. I used to live with a carpenter, and he used to use that kind of wood. The cost per board foot is can be 3-4x what it normally would be in a lumber yard if your lucky.

I wish I could explain the biology to you, but I can't. Something about the fact the water doesn't move much at the bottom the lake (as opposed to a river), it's fresh water (as opposed to salt), and the type of wood (cedar works well and oak preserve really well), and you have old growth lumber that is amazingly well preserved.

Oh, and if you used it on a deck, you deserve to be beaten by said deck for wasting such good wood. :)

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stradivari apparently used wood like that to make his violins.

Good enough for me.

And a company called Mountain Lumber retrieves wood from piers in DC and Savannah for resale to homebuilders (I really wanted some of the wood from that Savannah pier for my house - too damn expensive, though)

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[bobthemuse]

If you're gonna build a deck today, check out some of the composite materials that are available. I saw someone building once, was surprised that they could cut it with a saw, pound nails through it, etc, but that it was mostly plastic. I found one online, but I'm sure there are many others.

With the rapid depletion of old wood, it should be reserved for high-end furniture, instruments, etc. This is a fantastic alternative for outside use!

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[MajorDick]

Perfect, fresh water dosent rot wood typically, take for example lake erie here in ohio, there was recently (last 5 years or so) a salvage operation to recover a ship carrying wood, it had been at the bottom 150 years. The wood was perfect. Also in Tobermory Canada there is a great wreck the Arabia , late 1890s in unreal condition. 110' dive but a lot of fun. I have done a LOT of diving in my life and a good 3/4 of that in fresh water, the preservation is fresh water never ceases to amaze me.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[hackman]

Be careful though, some of this plastic wood works very well but the expansion/contraction in cold/warm weather is significantly stronger than regular wood. My father-in-law had a large boardwalk developed out of this stuff in upstate NY and the first winter pretty close to destroyed the better part of it.

That said is petroleum a better material to make wood out of? Maybe if it's recycled plastic products, but otherwise I'd just prefer normal wood.

But robotic underwater lumberjacks is a great idea. Maybe I'll build one next. Really.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough*, Carbon Dioxide

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[phoenix.bam!]

I have a deck built out of plasitc composite. You can clean it with a hose, it doesn't lose it's color, and bugs won't eat it. I love it. Big upgrade over my old deck that lasted 8 years before it had to be replaced.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[irokitt]

Yes, absolutely. To save the forest, use plastic, because depleting the amount of oil in the world is just fine. It's someone elses problem.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not ask about the hot grits as well? ;)

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to live with a carpenter,

Did he give you wood, or just take it?

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, absolutely. To save the forest, use plastic, because depleting the amount of oil in the world is just fine. It's someone elses problem.

But the plastic can be made once and used damn near forever whereas a wooden deck may have to be replaced numerous times. By the time you transport the workers to and from the forest, run the harvesting equipment, run the mill, transport the wood to distributors, stores, and finally to your house, you've probably burned more oil then it would have taken to produce the one plastic deck.

Of course, you knew that and were assuming that most everyone walks to the forest, uses hand tools to cut down the tree and mill the lumber, and use their stable of horses to haul it back to the house in suburbia, right?

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it petrified?

Oh yeah, and covered in hot grits!

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[tmortn]

Any pics of the arabia ? oh wiat

http://www.geocities.com/marvintpaa/arabia.html

interesting lake

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Somegeek]

It is not petrified. Just think of it as wood that has been internally washed very very well.

I was once involved with a underwater logging operation recoving trees. All of the stress has been relieved in the wood and it dries perfectly straight and supposedly will never warp. That is one of its values and the reason that Japanese furniture makers treasured it.

We didn't have to use ballons to float the trees to the surface, ususally they floated up on their own. They had only been submerged about 40 years (hydro project). Some of them would jump up to 15 feet above the surface when they came up. It made it interesting to be in boat to say the least.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[AJWM]

Most of the plastic 'lumber' sold for decking and the like is from recycled plastic. One of the more popular uses of the stuff, since in general the recycled plastic isn't high grade enough to be used in food or beverage packaging.

Not only that, but it won't give you splinters and isn't treated with nasty wood-preserving chemicals. Great for backyard play structures for the kids.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[AJWM]

Ah, you beat me to it. I was going to mention the Arabia. Yeah, terrific dive, even some of the rigging still in place. Quite a few other wrecks to dive at Tobermory too. For those that don't know the area, it's the tip of the Bruce Peninsula between Lake Huron and Georgian Bay. It's officially preserved as an underwater Provincial Park.

Even salt water can preserve things well if it's cold enough. I've dived on the Empress of Ireland (ie, "I've gone down on an Empress" ;-) in the Gulf of St. Lawrence (about 120-150 ft, and bloody cold), which still holds up pretty well (mostly steel, but wood decking, railings, etc).

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Preferably naked and petrified, but I'll take petrified as well!

--
I took a bitchslapping for osm!

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[amembleton]

With the rapid depletion of old wood, it should be reserved for high-end furniture, instruments, etc.

I know this is a bit off-topic but still. IMHO it would be better if we, as a society used more wood and less plastic. Plastic comes from oil and this is not easily renewable (it takes a few million years). Wood is renewable, it can take ~20 years. If we only bought wood from renewable sources where they plant new trees after they chop old ones down then surelly we are having a positive impact on the environment as wood is a store of carbon. Wood holds carbon that would otherwise be in the atmosphere as Carbon Dioxide which is a major contributor to the green house affect.

I am not an environmentalist, but I don't see the problem with using wood, to me it has a positive affect so long as it is renewed.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[theonetruekeebler]

It's just that invading another country so we can take all their trees seems so damned silly. Canada's got lots of trees, but we like Canadians---they dress like we do.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not an environmentalist

Actually, yes you are. You're proposing a sensible solution to a serious long-term ecological problem. That's what most environmentalists do.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, absolutely. To save the forest, use plastic, because depleting the amount of oil in the world is just fine. It's someone elses problem.

Taken directly from the front page of ChoiceDek.
Only ChoiceDek takes advantage of a patented process that uses recycled wood fiber encapsulated in recycled polyethylene.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[El_Ehmenopio]

a lot of "plastic wood" is a mixture of wood scraps, and resin, but much is actually made up of recycled lumber and recycled plastic. Some is the same thermoplastic in soda bottles, not a problem unless you plan on building your deck in death valley.

Re:How good is the wood like that?

[litho_man]

Oh yes, let's knee jerk and come to the ultimate conclusion that any and all building materials are ultimately evil. The wood fibers and plastic resins of these wood plank substitutes are almost entirely from recycled materials. Not only are products like these a better and longer lasting material for their market, they reduce our reliance on new natural resources and reduce waste accumulation.

Great Wood from these Trees

[moehoward]

The trees that have been in cold water the longest make some of the best wood in the world. Apparently, these was/is an effort to get some sunken wood from the bottom of Lake Superior that went down with logging ships long ago.

Great idea. Hope it's not one of the ugly big corporations that Michael hates so much that is doing it. And for god's sake, let's hope nobody actually makes an EVIL profit off of it. Right, Michael?

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[Deraj DeZine]

Oh, please quit stalin. Everyone knows you're accusing him of being a communist. Soon he'll be red with embarassment. It's sickle that people always accuse him of this. We should once and for all hammer out this issue. If he was a communist, I'd, well, I'd knock him to the floor, I'd do all sorts of painful things to him. Did somebody say Kruschev?

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[crackshoe]

the reason a lot of this wood is in such demand is that it was very very dense, causing it to sink. i read one of those 'look we're rich and smoke cigars these are the pretty things we can buy' catalogue that made a big deal about... i think it was a golf club, made out of this wood.

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[Frigid Monkey]

People use these ancient trees to make some of the finest instruments in the world. Physics web has This Article
On "Science and the Stradivarius" A bit long unless your interested in what makes a fine musical instrument sound so...hmm....expensive.

To sum up...Ancient wood sounds Good.

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[Dirtside]

Dude, why did you pick the one story where Michael didn't make an editorial comment to whine that he always makes anti-corporate editorial comments?

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[FroMan]

Just because michael does not put a comment in the articles he picks, there is usually a common theme among them. Granted this one is a rarity as it does not seem to have any political slant. Props to michael for his first non-I-hate-corporate-America article.

Re:Great Wood from these Trees

[himself]

>
> The trees that have been in cold water the longest make some of the best wood in the
> world. Apparently, these was/is an effort to get some sunken wood from the bottom of
> Lake Superior that went down with logging ships long ago
>
I was given a kitchen cutting board made out of a tree recovered from one of the Great Lakes. Having seen a show on TV about this, I was thrilled; my wife wondered why it smelled more of wood when it gets wet than our other cutting boards do.
The thing weighs a lot, too: anybody breaks into my house, I just might go for this instead of a carving knife.

Im a lumberjack and Im ok...

[RobertTaylor]

Triton Logging has been harvesting them for years by sending divers down with chainsaws and then hoisting the waterlogged trunks to the surface

Not just suspenders and a bra, more a full on scuba gear! ooooh, Neoprene! Kinky!

My Auction:Pan Tilt Ethernet Webcam 4 days!

Re:Im a lumberjack and Im ok...

[Anonymous Coward]

My Auction:Pan Tilt Ethernet Webcam 4 days!

Fuck off. /. is not a place for your ebay bullshit.

Oh, great

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

Like we need another enemy in the world.

This is going to really piss off the Atlanteans.

Where's Hagbard when you need him.

(this isn't off topic if you have any idea what i'm talking about, so leave me alone, modders!)

Re:Oh, great

[Nuclear Elephant]

Why would it piss off people from atlanta? We don't have any water nearby.

Re:Oh, great

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

What do you call people from the underwater world/city of Atlantis?

Re:Oh, great

[Nuclear Elephant]

Nonexistant?

Re:Oh, great

[SkaterGeek]

Why would it piss me off? I just happen to live on atlantis myself and don't have any problem with this. Ok, Fine its... Atlantis.ave

interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be not in least surprised that wood knots in the least are prized.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Don Knots is something different, though.

-1 Offtopic

Ode To Python

[JWSmythe]

I'm a robotic underwater lumberjack and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

Chorus: He's a robotic underwater lumberjack and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea.

Fish: He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch,
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shopping
And has buttered scones for tea.

Chorus: He's a robotic underwater lumberjack and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing,
And hang around in bars.

Fish: He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps,
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing,
And hangs around in bars?

Chorus: He's a robotic underwater lumberjack and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I wear high heels,
Suspendies and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear pappa.

Fish: He cuts down trees, he wears high heels?
Suspendies...and a bra?

Chorus:...he's a robotic underwater lumberjack and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day. ...he's a robotic underwater lumberjack and he's OKAAAAAAAAAAYYY.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

Re:Ode To Python

[Elminst]

Feh. Adding two words makes you lame, not original.

Re:Ode To Python

[webbroberts]

And I thought you were so rugged!

Environmental Consideration

[phonex98]

Sure this situation sounds like a win - win situation, but considering that most of the hydropower reservoirs are a minumum of several years old, many underwater animals have built their habitats among those submerged trees, and what will they do if we chop them down ? .. we've already made this mistake on the surface... should we do in the ocean as well ?

Re:Environmental Consideration

[ObviousGuy]

If the water is as low in oxygen as they expect, it is unlikely that there are many, if any, creatures living in and around those trees.

Re:Environmental Consideration

[DeltaSigma]

We keep reservoirs in the ocean?

Re:Environmental Consideration

[Somegeek]

This is in freshwater lakes, not the ocean.

Most animals do not live underwater, they live on land, with exception of beavers, and they already cut down trees.

Fish live in water, but they don't like to build nests in trees.

This is not the ocean where you get corals growing on artifical reefs, these are trees that are not meant to be underwater, and nothing natural utilizes them.

Re:Environmental Consideration

[whereiswaldo]

Fish live in water, but they don't like to build nests in trees.

Of course this depends on how deep you go. For more shallow water, certain freshwater fish love to lurk in areas with weeds and fallen trees. Granted, the preservation of the underwater trees appears to be dependent upon being at a pretty good depth.

Re:Environmental Consideration

[hypocritic]

I do remember reading how under-water logging can do a lot of harm to an underwater ecosystem: if done improperly. Can't find the article any more but it talked about some individually raising fallen logs that sank before making it to a mill downstream. He scouted around and bought some vacation/cabin property where he knew a few accessible + valuable old-growth logs had sunk. And you guessed it: upon raising them the local fish stock collapsed and his neighbors got ticked.

The closest thing i could find on this is an article on sport fisherman opposed to submerged logging. Incidentally here's a more detailed article on the sawfish that was probably the source of the original post.

Put Some Effort In!

[RobertTaylor]

At least put the effort in than just add two words!

My Auction:Pan Tilt Ethernet Webcam 4 days!

Re:Put Some Effort In!

[JWSmythe]

I was trying to make first post. :) It was still in the registered readers preview when I started, I figured I didn't have long to get it up.

I'm still waiting for a good /. story to sing "Sit on my face,"

Ah, I see how it works...

[halivar]

All I have to do is quote funny movies/shows/songs when PROMPTED TO by the freakin' ARTICLE SUBMISSION and BING!!! Look Ma, I'm a karma-whore! Don't look at me, I'm just WHORING for some KARMA. Not actually trying to contribute or anything... just here to WHORE for some KARMA!

Ok, mods! Burn it! BURN THAT KARMA, BABY!!!! YEEEAH!

Re:Ah, I see how it works...

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares when you point out the obvious.

Re:Ah, I see how it works...

[halivar]

No one cares when you point out the obvious.

You have completely demoralized me. I'm going to bed now.

Re:Ah, I see how it works...

[Anonymous Coward]

You have completely demoralized me. I'm going to bed now.

RTFA

[Elminst]

RTFA!

they are floated to the surface, where they are dried out and sold to mills for use in furniture and construction, like any other lumber.

Re:RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

dried out rotton wood doesn't help much, try again.

Underwater Trees?

[Caharin]

It cuts down the trees growing underwater? Whenever I try to grow trees underwater, they don't grow very well. I must be doing something wrong...

Re:Underwater Trees?

[WindBourne]

might I suggest that you water it plenty and make sure that it gets plenty of sunlight. Oh, be sure to not overwater it.

Re:Underwater Trees?

[Lord of Ironhand]

Well, it's rather obvious. Trees need rain every now and then. It doesn't rain underwater. There's your problem.

Old Growth Lumber

[Anonymous Coward]

Up here in Vermont, some guys made news a couple of summers ago by building a homemade submarine out of welded-together propane tanks(!) with trolling motors for propulsion. They were actually making some good money by going into some of the deep ponds here, attaching cables to long-ago fallen trees and hoisting them to the surface. Since the deep water is so low in oxygen, the trees are well preserved, and after propper drying yield some excellent lumber.

pictures

[bawb]

Found some pics here.

Re:pictures

[bawb]

erm ... and additional info at the company's web site: www.tritonlogging.com

Re:pictures

[Captain Stoichiometr]

Oh man. Those are really disappointing. I was expecting something way more evil-looking. Like a robotic beaver or something...

Obvious

[cheinz]

All I want is friggin' robots with friggin' chainsaws on their friggin' heads! Can't somebody help me out here?

Photo here...

[nweaver]

Triton Logging Company Engineering Page has a photo of what is presumably the Sawfish submarine.

NOTE TO MODERATORS:

[Anonymous Coward]

PYTHON != TEH FUNAY

Sawfish Triton

[pipingguy]

More here.

Say hello

[highwebl]

to my chainsaw-wielding robotic submarine, Mr Powers

CORRECT photo here...

[nweaver]

Triton Logging Company Engineering Page has a photo of what is presumably the Sawfish submarine.

(darn, I forgot to close a quote. /. needs a cancel feature)

Re:CORRECT photo here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Should have used the Preview button!

Sub Picture

[pipingguy]

Photo.

Company Website + More Pictures

[RobertTaylor]

http://www.tritonlogging.com UK Geeks will want this

Python references aside...

[Klatoo55]

I think that it is quite an interesting development that we can use robotic harvesters to gather previously cost-ineffective resources. Maybe next we can go after the tons of gold dissolved in seawater. Robots are nothing if not patient...

Re:Python references aside...

[El]

Maybe next we can go after the tons of gold dissolved in seawater. You may be better off using bacteria for that.

Re:Python references aside...

[Somegeek]

Its not that previously it was cost-ineffective, but it was highly dangerous as well as being very difficult. I wish the robot luck.

Re:Python references aside...

[MemoryAid]

They are already harvesting gold from seawater using nanotechnology. I read about it in a Clive Cussler book.

What? Oh, fiction, you say? Never mind.

Photo???

[fldvm]

So where is the photo of the Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine?!?

Re:Photo???

[aastanna]

here (stolen from comments way down the page)

Call the FAO Schwartz people

[Anonymous Coward]

Scale it down and this could be the next killer bath toy for kids.

Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people

[Captain Irreverence]

Scale it down and this could be the next killer bath toy for kids.

Literally.

Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people

[Anonymous Coward]

Scale it down and this could be the next killer bath toy for kids

I really do not want to know what kind of log the little chainsaw is going to be cutting in some little kid's bath....

Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure I want something in my bathtub that latches on to cylindrical objects and saws them in half.

Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people

[Jack Schitt]

Don't forget... it also attaches floaters to it with a screwdriver...

Hey, those robots are interfering

[Anonymous Coward]

...with my basketweaving.

bio-goodness

[drgonjo]

Why don't they just bio engineer a woodpecker swordfish hybrid and dope it up on meth and roids? It would take that frickin Robot Wars reject any day of the week. That's the solution I would have pitched 'em anyhow.

Finally ...

[Fulton Green]

a decent mascot for the Sawfish window manager.

Obiously..

[msimm]

You don't mean the underside. ;-)

It all makes sense:

[Captain Irreverence]

Obviously this submarine has been heavily influenced by the Best FPS Weapon poll.

Okay, I'll Admit It...

[bfg9000]

... I have NO IDEA what "Cue the jokes about robotic high heels, suspenders and a bra" is supposed to mean. I feel strangely inadequate; I'm usually way ahead of the rest of you with the references to Lumberjack Crossdressing Porn.

Re:Okay, I'll Admit It...

[borgheron]

It's a reference to the "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay" routine by the Monty Python guys. :)

Check this page:

http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0198.htm

Near the end.

GJC

Re:Okay, I'll Admit It...

[Corpus_Callosum]

Heh - My first thought was suspenders for the robot and high heels, skirt, etc.. for the robot bimbos that have to run from it... ergo chainsaw masacre...

Robotic chainsaw masacre? That is weird, huh... I think I need a shrink...

Not again!

[Bingo Foo]

Is one of my favorite window managers going to have to change its name again?

Re:Not again!

[Alex Belits]

I guess, if this submarine will tie logs into window frames, and drag them around under water...

Return on Investment

[stecoop]

cuts around 9 trees an hour...
Sawfish submarines for sale $750,000...

I wonder what the buyers of expect to get per tree? If the pure profit is 1 dollar per tree minus other operating expense than it will take 83333 hours or 3472 days or 9 years to pay off the machine. Hmmm, I would rather be selling these guys for 750k than buying it and hopping for a return on investment.

Re:Return on Investment

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can pull up hardwood you can have a profit of thousands per tree. Even submerged pine, if it is older original growth trees, can give a huge amount per tree. I believe that even farm grown trees for paper pulping are worth several hundreds of dollars.

Re:Return on Investment

[Anonymous Coward]

While the tree's themselves might not sell for enough $$ to pay off the machine in a reasonable amount of time, there are other factors to consider:

1) The amount of volume gained in the reservoir. This is not a biggie, but the resevoir size will increase dramatically once all of the trees are removed, which will not only save more water for dry spells in resevoirs used for that, but also a larger pool of cycling for the resevoirs that are used to purify the water.

2) The trees themselves must over time leach their saps into the water. Many tree saps, including pine, spruce, etc. are poisonous. With the trees gone, the water quality will improve quickly and less chemicals will be required to process it, which saves the company controlling the resevoir another bundle of $$.

Add these gains to the price obtained from the trees (significantly more than a dollar per tree, even for water-logged wood) and while the company may not make a profit right off the bat, the machine would not be a bad investment. Also, consider that once they have used the machine in their own resevoirs, they can sell the service to other water-companies, or even sell the machine for a reduced price.

Re:Return on Investment

[Dirtside]

Erm, keep in mind that the people who want trees removed from their reservoirs are likely to be government authorities, for whom profit is not (theoretically) the point of such actions.

Re:Return on Investment

[bbkingadrock]

i dont think any of the replies yet have expressed how valuable this wood can actually be. some of the wood recovered is a hundred, or hundreds, of years old and is extremely well preserved and colored. cold water preserves the wood. without looking up the actual numbers, a single log alone could be worth thousands of dollars no problem

Re:Return on Investment

[lgbarker]

Probably a lot cheaper than the equipment for helicopter logging. And that pays.

Re:Return on Investment

[nettdata]

I wonder what the buyers of expect to get per tree?

Look here or here.

My dad's a woodworker, and he's looked into buying some of the wood for it's overall quality, and some of its VERY unique graining and colouring.

The higher end wood was priced at over $1,000 per board foot (CDN), with the "cheap" high-end stuff being around $200 per board foot. When you consider that a single log (on average) has thousands of board feet in them, the profits are WAY more than $1 per tree!

I wish I could find the pics of some of the finished products, but if you go here you can see some of the graining of the recovered logs.

There was one 35 foot long board-room table I saw that was $120,000, and it LOOKED like it was worth every penny. It was incredible.

A lot of the local governments are starting to jump in and try and get ownership of the underwater resources, like in Michigan. There's SERIOUS money in it.

Re:Return on Investment

[Almond Tree]

One guitar top sized (1/8" x 24" x 36") piece of quality old growth could sell for $150 & up. The profit for efficiently and safely harvesting this wood boggles the mind.

Re:Return on Investment

[stephanruby]

It depends on the tree, but they could get $40,000 at the most.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but...

[drfishy]

I for one welcome our new Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine overlords. I swear, that's the only one I'll ever post! Seriously though, pretty freakin' cool!

One Question

[acherrington]

One question... Why does talking about a Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine make you think about robotic high heels, suspenders and a bra?

Re:One Question

[Dirtside]

The old Monty Python routine about a lumberjack who really wishes he was a woman.

Re:One Question

[Truth_Quark]

Sheesh!

Did you guys come down in the last shower?

Lumberjack Song

level playing field

[Doc Ruby]

Our robot successors will thank us for combining the best of both worlds: clearcutting and dam flooding. That's the way to get rid of the nasty human infestation keeping back cybernetic evolution through unfair competition.

you insensitive clods

[Anonymous Coward]

where are the endangered underwater robot pygmy owls supposed to nest?

Underwater Gnomes

[Black Art]

I think I will wait for the Metacity Underwater robot.

It will look cooler and be updated more often.

Coming this Spring...

[popo]

Imagine a dark future...

Imagine a time of chaos...

...A world where the last trees lie at the bottom of vast manmade floodlands.

OMFG we're in a bad sci-fi movie!

(shit, we don't even need the robotic chainsaw sharks to make it scary... its scary enough already).

Re:Coming this Spring...

[glorf]

Yes a bad, long sci-fi movie. But it isn't coming this spring. It came out in 1995.

why does this make me think of....

[3seas]

....Jarjar Binks?

Sawfish!

[leviramsey]

Not only is it one of the most extensible window managers around (being written in a lisp dialect), it also cuts trees underwater!*

*: Julienne fries and sex toy attachments sold separately

Re:Sawfish!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lisp is ass.

Unrest in the Forest

[pipingguy]

The Trees

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.
The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.
There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream Oppression!
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light.
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

Hey!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not old-growth forest; that's just "forest". Huge difference.

For all I know you went from 735 million acres of old-growth forest in 1920 to 749 million acres of the modern spongy fast-grown pine now.

My house (in Canada) is 75% old-growth pine. I cannot find any knots in the old stuff, and it's about as hard as granite, while the new stuff is like sponge. I've had to drill holes through the old-growth joists, and the the spade drill just about glows red by the time it's made its way through the old joists. I'm not exaggerating. The wood ends up scorched black and smoking from the ten minutes of fierce drilling that it takes to get through it.

Re:Hey!

[Anonymous Coward]

My house (in Canada) is 75% old-growth pine. I cannot find any knots in the old stuff, and it's about as hard as granite, while the new stuff is like sponge. I've had to drill holes through the old-growth joists, and the the spade drill just about glows red by the time it's made its way through the old joists. I'm not exaggerating. The wood ends up scorched black and smoking from the ten minutes of fierce drilling that it takes to get through it.

And this is a good thing..?

Re:Hey!

[jandrese]

Er, are you sure that's pine? It sounds more like the old joists are made of Oak. Also, you may want to invest in a new set of drill bits, it sounds like your old ones may be getting a bit worn out. Don't go for the abolute cheapest bits this time.

Re:Hey!

[hesiod]

> The wood ends up scorched black and smoking from the ten minutes of fierce drilling that it takes to get through it.
> And this is a good thing..?

My thoughts exactly! I mean, who WOULDN'T want their house made of soft wood that will rot through %50 faster and can hold about 3/4 as much weight safely. Pssh, screw that, I say MAKE MY HOUSE SUPPORT BEAMS OUT OF SILLY PUTTY!

Re:Hey!

[ACPosterChild]

Umm, if it's scorching, you're doing something wrong. Not to insult your intelligence, but make sure that your drill is going in the right direction. Ok, ok, so I've done the same thing. It's funny how much harder it is to drill into wood when the bit is turning the wrong way :)

Spade bits will tend to scorch a little, but if it's much then you need to make sure you're cleaning out the chaff often enough.

Composites hold up great too

[Sycraft-fu]

My parents used a good deal of composites in their new house and they are pretty damn neat. As you noted, they could be worked with nearly the same as wood. It has been holding up to the weather fantasticaly. They live in snowy climate so wood needs lots of matanence (repainting mostly). This stuff seems to just shrug it off.

Underwater Cypress

[Flashbck]

I work at an engineering company and one of the consultants we frequently hire has been surfacing old cypress logs from the bottom of deep lakes for years now. He has made quite a profit from this and even holds a few patents on ROV's that find and cut the trees, similar to this sawfish. It is actually a _very_ lucrative idea, not to mention envorinmentally friendly since it does not cut down any of the old growth trees in forests, which would be the only way to obtain wood of this quality.

Never bought lumber, have you?

[Sycraft-fu]

$1 per tree? You're kidding right? Go to a lumber yard some time and check out prices. Then remember this is cheap wood, taken from young trees. Old growth wood is quite rare since we've cut most of it down and done a poor job maintaining the forests (planting too many trees and putting out all the fires). So old growth wood fetches top dollar. Also, old growth trees are LARGE, and most of the wood is quality. You get a good yeild on them.

They'll be able to make plenty of profit per tree, probably over $100 each, after expenses.

Comedy BBC radio

[hopbine]

Very topical, check out BBC radio http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/comedy.shtml?youllh avehadyourtea

Actually...

[inode_buddha]

this thing might just pay its own way. You'd be surprised at what woodworkers (in the US at least) will pay for old growth lumber, especially for hardwoods. Not to mention municipalties on rivers that want their shipping channels cleared out. I've seen people bid thousands of dollars for a single tree. Consider that a hundred years ago, it was not uncommon to see doors made out of a single slab of chestnut, for example; such things are incredibly rare these days.

It's not a matter of tree count

[fm6]

Your definition of "old growth" is faulty. It's not forest that has been deliberately planted, it's forest that has had a very long time time to mature. It's valuable both economically (wood that old is high quality) and ecologically (lots of genetic diversity in them old woods).

Ever been in the Santa Cruz area, south of San Francisco? All the redwood forests look very pretty. They give the impression of hosting tons of wildlife, and being very ancient. Both impressions are completely false. The Santa Cruz forests were actually completely cut down in order to rebuild San Francisco after the 1906 quake. (Redwood is the best structural wood there is, being extremely resistant to termite damage.) But after nearly a century natural, there are as many trees as there ever were. So the damage is undone right?

Wrong. When they cut down the forest, they eliminated a habitat, and a lot of biodiversity simply went away. It'll come back too, eventually -- but not in another 100 years, and probably not in a thousand.

There's more to forest management than just keeping the tree count up.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[gpw213]

Let me modify that a bit: Old-growth redwood is the best structural wood there is...

Modern redwood is much to soft, and it is against code to use it for anything structural.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[pipingguy]

Is pertrified wood too brittle?

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[smack_attack]

Ask Natalie Portman. /old old ooooold joke^H^H^H^Htroll

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[The One and Only]

Uh, mod me as a troll, but what value to us is that wildlife? We seem to have done pretty well without it. It's not like we need those ecosystems, given the fact that we've been practicing agriculture for 6000 years, and are so good at it that were it not for price supports we'd have prime produce on sale for pennies.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, mod me as a troll, but what value to us is that wildlife? We seem to have done pretty well without it.

Hint: It's not all about *you*

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a sentient raccoon and I'll show you someone who deserves the same consideration I do.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a sentient raccoon and I'll show you someone who deserves the same consideration I do.

Spoken like a true Amurrrican. Only a few more years of neo-con indoctrination, and we'll be able to sterilize/exterminate retards just like they did in Germany.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Braintrust]

"Show me a sentient raccoon and I'll show you someone who deserves the same consideration I do."

You're just looking in the wrong places...

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Anonymous Coward]

boo hoo

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[hesiod]

> Show me a sentient raccoon and I'll show you someone who deserves the same consideration I do.

They wash their food. There are humans that don't even do that... They are definitely smarter than many humans. Humans are too damn arrogant and assume that something is stupid just because it can't speak.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[Woody77]

Actually, that's not quite accurate. (I live in the middle of the santa cruz mountains, in a house made primarilly of redwood).

My house might be virgin (our local term for old-growth) redwood, but the grain patterns and density between the currently growing crops and stuff harvested a 100 years ago is mostly false.

And many decks are made entirely from redwood. Big advantage with the super-agressive termites around here. redwood is weaker than douglas, at only about 60% of the strength, but due to it's amazingly light weight, you can build massive structures with it, without the weight of the structure causing it to fall down.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[stanmann]

Actually, they don't...

wash their food. And I'm shocked that someone on slashdot is still perpetuating that old myth.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[hesiod]

> I'm shocked that someone on slashdot is still perpetuating that old myth.

There are people who still believe in God, so why does an extremely common misconception "shock" you?

Anyway, show me a place that "debunks" that, as I live in an area infested by raccoons, and while I can't prove they are washing food, they certainly hang out by the stream a lot. I looked on snopes (searched for "raccoon") and couldn't find anything. So where did you get your info?

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[stanmann]

Originally learned about it in school..

checked google for 'raccoon food washing myth'.

And since raccoons eat crayfish and other aquatic life... it would make sense to hang out at the stream...

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[hesiod]

> since raccoons eat [...] aquatic life... it would make sense to hang out at the stream

Yes, I suppose it would :) They also eat fruit & stuff too, though. Some DO often dip their food in water, although evidently not to clean it, as they'll eat dirt-covered worms with no issue. There doesn't seem to be much reason to it.

Re:It's not a matter of tree count

[stanmann]

no particular reason seems to be the consensus...

instinct/habit of some sort(see todays poll)

although I've read stories from cruel people about giving soluble items to raccoons near a stream and watch them "wash it" till it's gone...

Pictures!

[fm6]

Online! NOW!

Great...

[pmsyyz]

Skynet will have a ton of fun with this.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I _welcome_ our new underwater, chainsaw wielding overloads!!!

Bra ?

[zungu]

Why mention a bra? A large section of slashdot is male (it seems) and sex starved (it seems!).

Old saying

[LuckyPhil]

"If a tree is felled in an underwater forest, does anyone hear it?"

Try $20,000 per tree

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a large tree, you will get tens of thousands of dollars in revenue. Subtract your various expenses, and you'll have thousands in profit per tree.

These numbers are out of my ass, but substitute a sufficiently qualified ass for greater accuracy.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

BECAUSE YOU'RE REALLY FUCKED IN THE HEAD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's the reason.

i think i've found a new commuter route

[npistentis]

All I need is a chainsaw-wielding submarine to drive across the river to work... screw the SUV-clogged bridges, I'll cut my own path, thank you very much ;-]

LISP?

[Anonymous Coward]

so is the sub also programmed in LISP?

Useful for piling removal

[Animats]

Years ago, I realized that something like this was needed to remove the old pilings that clutter up the SF waterfront.

The usual solution is to get a large barge-mounted crane and pull them up by brute force, but that's expensive. So it tends not to get done until somebody wants to build something and can convince the city to let them. The bayfront clutter of pilings and rotted piers makes open shoreline look less attractive, which encourages "development". A cheaper way to remove that junk, even if it's slow, would be a big win.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Great Lakes Logs

[Jodka]

Companies are salvaging lumber from the Great Lakes also.

from the article:

"One area in the Great Lakes where a team of horses ... went through the ice with a load of logs ... the skeletal remains of the horse are still there, harness, logs and all."

It's a Monty Python reference

[mh101]

Not a Monty Python fan I guess?

You gotta hear The Lumberjack Song, with the line about the man wanting to be a lumberjack, wearing high heels, suspenders and a bra.

Dam

[Anonymous Coward]

no reference to 'beaver'

The great aqua chainsaw massicre

[madcow15]

Screw the great Texas chainsaw massacre this could be the great wet n wild chain saw massacre. Imagine the possible follow-on applications, the death of the rug rats in the wading pool, Jason and Freddy get the chop at the YMCA the spoofs are endless

oh you are so wrong.

[Brigadier]

I was watching a program on TLC where contractors actually hunt for submerged wood. aparantly wood which has been submerged for 10 plus years are worth their weight in gold in the furniture industry. I'm not exactly sure why but being submerged much of the time in an oxygen free mineral rich environment causes the density and finish of the would to be very unique and desireable. I wish I had a link or something I coudl share.

Re:oh you are so wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

And why is your title "oh you are so wrong"? Because from everything you say, you appear to be agreeing with the parent poster.

Special wood

[BCW2]

These kinds of trees are very valuable to woodworkers for furniture making and even flooring. Any hardwoods they find are old slow growth trees that are taller and larger in diameter than todays. The slow growth means tighter grain, and the size means wider boards. Norm Abram has talked about this on New Yankee Workshop. The people who recover them charge a premium for cutting and drying after recovery, but it can be worth it.

Hi everytroll

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm looking for a link to the picture that pissed off RUSTY of KURO5HIN so much. Thanks in advance!

sounds like a really really bad movie...

[Daktaklakpak]

Sawfish, a chainsaw-wielding robotic submarine...

is it me, or does this sound like the premise of a really bad horror movie? texas chainsaw massacre meets Jaws?

It's a matter of pretending to be God

[Anonymous Coward]

Thousands of species are brutally extincted daily and this has been the case for tens of thousands of years. Humans have been decimating their environments and upsetting ecologies for hundreds of thousands of years.

Of course it's only recently we wised up, so only recently it's a big important issue that must be dealt with now or else.

Re:It's a matter of pretending to be God

[beakburke]

Thousands becoming extinct per day huh? I hope you were just engaging in hyperbole, because I haven't seen any statistics that bad, even from the most wild eyed alarmist.

It sounds good...

[OgreFade]

but why the hell does it have to be so big and so expensive? You'd think in this day and age that it would be able to do this job and be much smaller.

The tenth floor fallacy

[fm6]

It's not like we need those ecosystems, given the fact that we've been practicing agriculture for 6000 years...

So your logic is, "we've been destroying ecosystems for 6000 years, therefore we can continue to do so indefinitely." Not logical. The global environment is big and complex, but it's not infinitely so. If we continue to simplify, and at an exponentially increasing pace, it'll eventually be too simple to support our noble selves.

How much margin do we have left? I dunno. There are many arguments, but probably the only way to know for sure is to keep pushing until the planet ceases to be habitable. Which will certainly settle the argument, but which isn't very practical!

You remind me of an old ethnic joke. In these politically correct times, I can't be specific about the ethnic affiliation of our Straight Man -- insert whoever you stereotype as terminall stupid.

Anyway, the SM goes and jumps off the Empire State building just to see what its like. As he's passing the tenth floor, he thinks, "I heard this was dangerous, but so far it's just plain fu..."

Re:The tenth floor fallacy

[The One and Only]

Most people in civilized societies eat agriculturally cultivated meat, fish, dairy, and vegetable products. The animals that we get the meat, fish, and dairy products from are agriculturally cultivated. Right now, the food supply you and I eat from is cultivated entirely by humans for human purposes. Yes, nature, untouched by human hands, is big and complex, and nature, touched by human hands, is simpler in many respects. However, the part of nature untouched by human hands has very little effect on us, since we don't eat anything it produces (commercial fishing, pre-hatcheries, was an exception, as is hunting, but quasi-natural hunting grounds with good, thriving game populations can and are artificially maintained as well). As far as I can tell, it produces oxygen for us to breathe, and takes in the carbon dioxide we exhale. That's it. Well, green plants (especially trees) are the parts of nature that do that, and we have no problem keeping the tree count up. One argument you can make is genetic diversity. In that case, it would be in our interests to maintain a wide gene pool to naturally evolve. Then again, I don't see how that couldn't be done with managed preserves that are studied by geologists and that have the genetic strains best suited to our needs sampled and cultivated. Either way, I'm pro-human. If you can show me the steps that can be taken that are good for humans, I'm for it. But the value of nature should be defined as its value to humans, unless you are willing to concede that trees and snakes are somehow more important than we are.

Re:The tenth floor fallacy

[fm6]

Jeez. I must be getting old. I lack the capacity to even parse that, never mind reply to it.

Re:The tenth floor fallacy

[evilad]

Thanks for the warning. I'm sure as hell not even going to try. If it was meant to be read, it would have paragraph breaks.

Re:The tenth floor fallacy

[fm6]

Putting in paragraph breaks means stoping to think about the structure of your document. Which also implies stopping to think about what you're actually trying to say. That interferes with the sense of self-righteous fury that is essential to a certain kind of rant.

Re:The tenth floor fallacy

[francium de neobie]

Even your farm products are not independent from nature. You can still starve from drought, rainstorms, pests, diseases, etc.

I agree we shouldn't care too much about nature when it doesn't matter. But it does matter for now. Your argument will be correct when we've got most of our supplies from space (space farms, space mining, etc.), i.e. when we're out of this stinking ecosystem. By that time we may even nuke Earth into pieces and kill everyone you don't care for God's sake. But NOT NOW. You don't want to screw with your current environment when that is the only place you can live in.

I'd like to see it try a Cypress stump...

[dcigary]

At my parent's lake house in Marble Falls, Texas, there is a stump in the cove that usually sits about a foot under the surface, and has caused many a boater to lose props or get holes punched in their boats. Usually someone in the area will mark it with a floater, so it's easy to avoid, but that hasn't stopped the faithful from trying to get rid of the hazard alltogether.

One weekend while up there, I had friends of mine who are Scuba divers don their gear, and try to use a large hacksaw to try and remove it. They came back with 5 chewed up hacksaw blades, and low on air.

About every few years or so, the LCRA will let the lake level down (it's a constant level lake, a dam on each end) so that homeowners can go out and clear out their lakefront property where the lake usually would be. Over the years we've seen folks try chainsaws, winches, fire, and even explosives to get rid of that hard Cypress stump, to no avail.

So, to this day, that stump remains vigilant and intact.

Re:I'd like to see it try a Cypress stump...

[Anonymous Coward]

At MY parents lake house in Whoopdeedoo, Skamaraloo, the cypress stumps try to cut down YOU!

Oh wait, that was the haunted forest house. They have so many I get them confused.

Re:I'd like to see it try a Cypress stump...

[MemoryAid]

In Cedar Lake, near Wolcott, CT, there are several cedar stumps that float to the surface when methane collects under them from other organic material rotting. The roots are still connected to the lakebed, so the stumps don't drift anywhere, but they present a significant hazard to navigation. I would estimate that they are about 6 feet across.

I would think that this robot is designed to cut across a trunk, and would have trouble making the irregular cuts required to free a stump. I have no answers.

ecology

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, we know that naturally there aren't supposed to be trees at the bottom of these lakes (which aren't even supposed to be there) but don't the trees create fish habitat? Or possibly could they be harmful to the fish..? And if you're wondering... yes, you should care. flame on

Re:Old growth lumber - ARRRRRG

[TheProcrastinatorTM]

There are some pretty big misunderstandings there... First of all, very little of American forest is old growth, at least speaking from the perspective of someone from Indiana, where we have millions (around 4.5) of acres of forest, but only 2000 of those acres are old growth. And I know the situation is similar in most states, if not quite as bad as here. (And old growth is a misnomer anyway; it can mean different things to different people - there are several useful definitions for the term, and merely being old does not under all definitions automatically make a forest "old growth" - it has more to do with the condition of the forest and the type of trees, I think) Second of all, citing a number from 1920 doesn't really help. 1920 was within like 10 years of the minimum forestation (at least for Indiana, I am sure it is similar elsewhere) - they had in our case already ripped up the vast majority of forest in the state and almost all of the old growth forest (basically all old growth forest had been logged by 1930). Since then much land RELATIVELY had been reforested (often not intentionally, so the new forest is only due in part to that 7% "planted by man"), but the vast majority of the damage was already done, and NONE of the new forest by definition will be old growth. And in fact there was still considerable deforestation after that time, but so much forest was added that it hides alot of that. (By the way, most estimates are the Indiana used to be around 80% forest; a quick check on google gave me numbers of around 20% current forestation - which is UP from the 1920 number. And that 80% consisted of significant amounts of old growth - though note it was not exclusively what would be called "old growth" by most people - and now old growth is well less than 1%.)

Re:Old growth lumber - ARRRRRG

[fm6]

Are you an alter ego of Phil Welch, or do you just share his tendencytendency to babel?

Check trolltalk

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't that bad, you would only get pissed off about that kind of thing if you were racist

All that comes to mind is ...

[Tjp($)pjT]

Underwater robot wars.... YEAHHH!!!!

Monoply on Wood

[ZHaDoom]

The sunken forests Mitchen retrieves include maple, birch, elm, oak and, several other hardwoods and softwoods. Because of the logs' preservation in fresh water, and the fact that many of the tree species he finds are now extinct, the market value of his lumber can be up to 10 times that of new wood. Mitchen's logs have been used for a variety of noteworthy projects, including:

* Handmade guitars for Eric Clapton and blues musician Johnny Lang
* Custom-made banjos for the Dixie Chicks
* Interior woodwork for the Getty Museum in Los Angeles and the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C.
* Furniture for the boardroom in the Ford Motor Company's World Headquarters
* Furniture for Bill Gates' home

Great headline

[serutan]

This doesn't have anything to do with the article, which I didn't even read yet, I just want to enter my vote for "Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine" as the greatest Slashdot headline of all time.

Hey!

[Kiyooka]

Maybe we could somehow get those sharks to USE THEIR LASERS to CUT DOWN THE TREES!

BOOM! 2 birds at once!

Re:Old growth lumber - ARRRRRG

[TheProcrastinatorTM]

I suppose if I was smart enough to use paragraphs it would help at least a little. Oh, well, live and learn, next time use preview first... (I have been using Nucles too long). As for the inanity of the substance rather than form, I have no defense.

Not in TVA territory...

[kf4lhp]

You won't find any of these underwater trees in the TVA lakes in and around Tennessee... they saw fit to cut 'em down and sell 'em off before they flooded their lakes.

Makes sense too, they wanted the money that they could get for them, and in shallow areas leaving the trees standing could create either a navigational hazard as well as potentially creating breeding areas for mosquitoes, if they stuck up above the water's surface.

Just watch the...

[stephanruby]

Just watch the tree-huggers try to save them now.

I've seen it

[kimihia]

With me own eyes!

Which issue is this article from?

[hovercraftSpareWheel]

Does anyone happen to know the date of the printed issue of New Scientist that this appears/will appear in? Would it be the last week in March or the first week in April?

Re:Which issue is this article from?

[Chris Hodges]

Does anyone happen to know the date of the printed issue of New Scientist that this appears/will appear in? Would it be the last week in March or the first week in April?

It'll be the last week in March one (dated 25th I think). I've got a subscription, so it dropped though my door yesterday.

i could be wrong, but...

[jnapalm]

i thought wood floated in water on its own...

Come on!

[The Grassy Knoll]

"I for one welcome our chainsaw-wielding robotic submarine overlords"

Sigh

Fish habitat

[Anonymous Coward]

Sumerged trees make for some of the best habitat for fish in these reservoirs, to what extent will this affect them? Admitedly there aren't as many fish at really deep locations where this would mostly operate.

Re:Fish habitat

[theonetruekeebler]

A good point, but for the most part, there will not be very much impact. For the most part, it's underwater brush that fish take advantage of: Fish like bass and brim build egg beds on the bottom, and the hatchlings stay close to the bottom and use the old undergrowth as hiding places from predators. Harvesting submerged old-growth trees won't have an impact for two reasons: First, the fry usually stay within a foot or two of the lake bottom, but the foliage of these trees is several feet up---away from where they would ever go. Second, these species build their laying beds in shallow waters, where there are no submerged old-growth trees.

I should also point out that hydroelectric reservoirs are, by definition, artificial habitats, and any fish adapting to them are, also by definition, an introduced species.

My brother and collected Christmas trees one year to dump in a pond we occasionally fished in. We had brim out the yazoo that summer.

Clark's Hill Reservoir, near where I grew up, has lots of submerged trees in it. When water levels fluctuate in the summer, boats collide with treetops where there shouldn't be treetops. Hopefully, this sort of work could make for safer lakes in the process.

How long before...

[myc_lykaon]

Legislation is passed that forces them to replant new trees for ones cut down?

Bets on there being a requirement for it to be in the same place too...

That's why they use floatation bags

[blorg]

After being submerged for more then several years wood does not float. So after you cut the tree it will happily fall on the bottom.

From the article:

After grasping the base of the tree in pincer-like arms, it attaches an inflatable flotation bag, which it then fills from its compressed air supply. Finally, it uses its 1.5-metre chainsaw to cut the tree, and lets go of the trunk, allowing the flotation bag to carry it to the surface for retrieval.

Yeah, but is anyone going to buy the machine?

[stecoop]

I got marked overrated for this article but it was an enlightening discussion never-the-less.

No the $1 thing people couldn't get over that and discuss the real issue of return per tree.
You can move the decimal forward as much as you need to get the fixed cost return to pay off the asset. So by the estimates everyone has replied to, it sounds like each one of you are going to buy one of these machines. Now with the highest estimate of 40,000 per tree then you would expect to get $360,000 per hour thus paying off the machine in about 2 hours. Anyone stepping up to buy the machine?

One point I was trying to make, not very clearly, is that in all areas of business you try to get someone else to do the actual work. In this case I was implying that I would rather sell the machines than try to do the work myself as in any business or management its not you that does the work but someone else. What prevents the manufacture of gathering these logs? Because if it was that profitable everyone would be doing it - gold rush anyone.

Building with concrete

[lga]

I wish they'd stop building houses of of wood.

Do you build houses entirely of wood in the USA? In Britain our houses are mainly brick with wood floors and ceilings. That seems to be the case in most countries in the west.

I'm sure that with a few billion dollars in research, we could develope inexpensive ways of building custom houses from concrete and steel.

In the 60's it was fashionable to build with concrete in Britain and we are putting up with the consequences now. Having lived at the University of Essex, a monstrosity built mainly of concrete, I can tell you that it is very expensive (It could have been marble for the price!) and extremely ugly.

007

[Cackmobile]

THis is so going to be in the next bond movie.

Sawfish WM Sponsorship :)

[jjsjeff]

This badass robot was actually sponsored by the Sawfish Window Manager. They are looking for a new mascot. Something strong enough to fight that damn OpenBSD blowfish in the ocean. :)

-Jeff

And YOU

[Anonymous Coward]

don't know the difference between "your" and "you're"

Dumbfuck.

Where have all the geeks gone?

[Libertarian_Geek]

I know, I know. I'm worried about the reduction of old growth forests too. That being said, it's a friggin Submarine with a huge chainsaw on it, and it's remote controlled!!! Hell, I'd give up PC gaming just to be able to have a remote submarine that size. No mention of underwater robot wars! I think we need a good look at our geekdom. Combine this with that John Deere 6 legged walker, and you've got one hell of a robotic lumberjack. That or a very impressive security guard.

Does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

That Sawfish is going to have to change its name again to avoid litigation? :-/

can't...resist ...sales...question...

[LifesABeach]

ummmm, sir? i'm hollywood movie producer; does that submarine come with a hockey mask?

Re:Old growth lumber - ARRRRRG

[fm6]

next time use preview first

Next time, think of what you're writing as a means of communicating your thoughts, rather than a form of rhetorical onanism.

This is the second time I've said "onanism" on Slashdot in as many days. People are gonna start looking at me funny, at least those who know what the word means. But in this case, it's the only word that applies.

Underwater robot chainsaw submarine?

[metamatic]

Is it just me, or does this sound like the start of an episode of "Thunderbirds"?

That's weird...

[Anonymous Coward]

No Window Manager jokes?

Re:We all live in it...

[maduro55]

I want one!!! Think of all the fun you could have on a weekend, roaming the lake cutting down trees, docks or whatever. The oohs and aaahs from one and all would be super and its' all in your very own Yellow Submarine. There, I said it..... Yellow Submarine ah ha!