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Two-Fisted Computing
whiterat writes "3Dconnexion is selling a variety of input devices that provide a left-hand complement to the traditional computer mouse. The devices control the position of on-screen objects in design programs such as Adobe Systems' Photoshop and its 3D modeling application, Maya. That enables designers to work without constantly togging between 'view' and 'create' modes." Smash TV veterans need no extra training.
Does Adobe own Alias?
My left hand finds the URL's
My right hand...........
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermat e/
Interesting - looks like there my be a patent infringement in the works here. The Griffin PowerMate is a super useful product for video and time code manipulation.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
I only have one hand, you insensitive clod!
Seems kinda pointless unless theres some sort of driver hack or the applications/games support this.
Following the approach of ned flanders
I used to skip classes in college to play Smash TV with a friend. I got the classic arcade collection last month that has Robotron, Smash TV and other classics (the GameCube controller is great on Defender). I always thought that if you had hand eye co-ordination for Robotron or Defender, you'd have skills to do something; be it driving, construction, race car driver, something.
Ok, that's all I have, I'm still trying to get over the bike girl's nuke pics.
CVBD
free ipod and free gmail!
The first thing I thought of when I saw the title was: "Wow, those spam messages for "enlarging" certain aspects of one's anatomy actually work!".
And I fail to see why there's a demand for this. Is the keyboard really so hard to use? I'm not a graphics developer but would this really make people's jobs easier?
...please explain how this might be handy? (Pun intended. ;) ) Seriously, though, as I rarely use PhotoShop, and have never done any CAD, I don't see how having a second device for the other hand would be of use. (The article doesn't go into it exactly.)
It even mentions spreadsheet jockeying, but that just makes me more confused, as I would think you'd be taking your hands off both devices for data entry.
libertarianswag.com
There's a reason most geeks only use one hand to navigate.
I'm a lefty and have to say this doesn't affect me because I'm so accustomed to using the mouse on the right side. Although this is a nice development, there is no way I'm going to give up the ability to use stylus with a digitizing tablet while at the same time using the mouse. Maybe right-handed people can make use of this.
I don't know about you guys, but I can't move my left hand anywhere near as quickly and precisely as my right.
On a digital device like a keyboard, where I either do, or do not, hit a target I can get away with this, but an analogue pointing device like a mouse is another question. And I expect using two similar pointing devices in different hands will add some disorientating effects on top of that.
The device is an interesting idea, now they just need to engineer the people who can use it efficiently.
"The worst tyrannies were the ones where a governance required its own logic on every embedded node." - Vernor Vinge
It's a miniture spaceball with a six degree-of-freedom knob and 8 programmable buttons. website picture and pdf.
Looks nice, but the buttons are placed around the rim and look like they'd be easy to confuse because they're identical.
(sorry for using the words spaceball, knob, and rim in this post)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I think Robotron 2048 had the double-joystick controls long before Smash TV came around...
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
For those who wasted more than a few bucks on the game:
"More Money! More Prizes! I Like It!"
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I don't know about others, by my left hand rests on the keyboard.
What I wish is that there was a one-handed keyboard so I could type with one hand and mouse with the other.
Traversing back & forth between using the keyboard and the mouse causes noticable slowdown when you use the computer all day.
Maybe that's why I like CLIs so much? *shrug*
Don't get me wrong, I use GUIs all the time, too, but you can't type in data with a mouse... (at least, not with any program I have)
The deal with Maya is that to easily create in 3d, you actually work in a 3d environment. Navigation, just as in a video game, is done with one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. The keyboard hand is used to select tools, etc, and to choose what mode the mouse input goes in. The mouse is used to rotate, scale, and pan the object in front of the camera (or the camera around the object, depending on your philosophy). For example, holding CTRL while using the left mouse button rotates (if I remember right--I really can't tell offhand without actually doing it).
So because input is so odd in such a program, I can imagine many ways to do it differently (unlike, say, typing, in which there really is only one obvious paradigm--one key per letter). I don't know specifically how they implement this, and I do personally feel relatively comfortable with the current setup, but it could be neat.
On a tangent, though, I think personally the big issue with working in 3d is not input per se, but the fact that the input and display are both two dimensional, despite the goal being to create something three dimensional. So for example, how two dimensional movements on a mousepad translate into three dimensional rotation can be kinda hard to get used to, and quite hard to be precise with. Also, I occasionally found myself, when I was first learning Maya, trying to move my head to look around the edges of an object (quite silly, I know). So the limitations of a two dimensional screen are also clear.
...considering the Spacetraveller's SIX HUNDRED DOLLAR price
it's also $599 on their net store!! (most of their other controllers are $499 except for the low-cost $399 and the $299 keyboard version)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
My mouse is symmetrical, and yet ergonomic. Theere is considerable wear on the mouse buttons, where the colored part has worn away to the bare plastic. Google Image Search provides a graphic.
Mouses that are designed with lefties in mind have been around for a while, like mine, and there's nothing really new about the hardware.
However, the concept of using two mice at once to better manipulate graphics is an interesting and useful one. I'll have to look into jury rigging something like this on my computer.
I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood
You can't be serious, to approve an article with a title like that, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
this. Which clearly is designed to just look cool (and is successful, I'd say).
For $500, I don't see how these can be justified.
Hell, you could rig a damned $50 joystick to do the same thing.
i guess this has to be asked... i use autocad and photoshop quite a bit. in photoshop, you have to constantly swtich to a zoom mode to move around the image you're working on. same in illustrator, pagemaker, etc, etc. in autocad, same deal, except your left (other) hand can use keyboard commands since there is a command line. anyways...
why hasn't someone written a driver which lets you use a second mouse/trackball as a "view" device. for example, in autocad, it'd have the same functionality as the main mouse, but would be dedicated to view commands.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
I could really have done without the mental imagery associated with the concept of double fisting. Thanks for the headline. Not. :P
my marble mouse is on the left side. Since I don't use any thing but it for games/mousing it's not of any advantage to me either.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
I've been doing this for years. One hand on my mouse, and the other on my...nevermind.
- Sherman
Well the left hand is busy on massaging certian parts of the anatomy.
Wasn't this the whole point of the three button mouse with the scrollwheel? So that one hand could be navigating on the computer while the other hand works on the body? Did the paradigm shift?
I've been waiting for a 2-mouse system for many years. Pick up this text here with one, this text here with the other, and swap them--operations like that.
Operating with just one mouse has always made me feel like a bird using its beak to weave a nest. Birds can do a lot of manipulation with a single pointy beak. They can build pretty fantastic nests. But who wants to do projects that way if they don't have to?
We work with both hands at once all the time in 3D space. Why not on-screen too?
C. Crowley--Mouse user since 1980 (and that first one had about 12 sharp little buttons on it)
I'm a righty, but I switched to a left-handed mouse about five years ago after a one-week motorcycle trip around the Great Lakes (intense vibration) followed by a one-week click-fest through the original Fallout RPG.
Because I make my living as a computer geek, I was surprised and dismayed to find just how messed up my right wrist was after that boneheaded combination of events. I tentatively switched over to using the mouse left-handed, meaning to do it temporarily, but discovered that within a week I was pretty comfortable, and within two weeks I had fully adjusted.
Five years later I'm still using it left-handed, which seems to mess up both righties and lefties when they try to use my workstation. I used to use xwrits to remind me to take regular mouse breaks so I don't (&%# up this wrist too, but I've been bad lately.
I've thought about a two-mouse system, but editing code and writing tech docs really lends itself to a keyboard. If I was an artist maybe a two-mouse system would let me switch brushes and colours midstroke, but I'm no artist. Just a recently minted ambidextrous person. I suppose if I were in Russia, I could say that the mouse manipulated ME...
Left handers learn to use their right hand, you can learn to use your left. You might not ever be as good, but you can do just fine. I can use the mouse in either hand, I like to switch to save my wrists. You can too, if you practice. In fact for some tasks your left hand might be better on the mouse since it frees your right hand to use the keyboard. Or in this case a different mouse.
Logitech is already known for extremely un-ergonomic devices like right-hand-only mouse-devices (left handers be damned), and early use of the useless scoll wheel that gets in the way of the left mouse button. I wonder if this item is designed in a similarly careless fashion.
The original creator of the mouse, Douglas Engelbart, always assumed you would use a one-handed "chord" keyboard with one hand, and use the mouse with the other hand. From what I have heard, if you invested the time to learn this, you could really rock.
http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
thought we already had a "device" for our left-hands...
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
I have a Robotron and a Smash TV downstairs. Took me 3 years to find a Smash TV, non-origional cabinet, crappy monitor, but it works! Happy happy, joy joy.
Now, there are only 2 questions left, can I ever make it by Scarface on a single credit, and does anyone have a set of the v8.0 roms to sell me.
Damn it, now I have to go play.......
-Charlie
Of course Robotron: 2084 predated Smash TV.
;-)
Here's a story I heard about Robotron. I don't know if it's true.
I heard that Disney decided to sue Williams over the name "Robotron", since Disney owns the name "Tron" (from the movie). Williams lawyers, in court, argued that the name isn't actually "Robo-tron", but actually "Robot Ron".
If it isn't true, it ought to be.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I AM left-handed, you insensitive clod!
The "new" SpaceTraveler knob reminds me of the "dials and buttons" that SGI (Silicon Graphics Inc) used to sell with their workstations years ago:i als-and-buttons.jpg
http://www.rrzn.uni-hannover.de/Grafik/sgi/onyx/d
Basiclly two panels... one covered with programmable buttons, the other with programable knobs. These, plus a SpaceBall, and you really didn't need to spent much time using the keyboard. I see that Magellan/Logitech still sells Spaceballs--they're sure neat, especially when using an app that supports two-handed modeling... one hand "holds" and moves the 3D model (usually in wireframe mode) with the 3D spaceball, while the other hand uses the mouse to work on the wireframe itself.
Did they forget the other (non mouse hand) is constantly used for pressing quick-keys ?
Learn to use them, bitch.
So why not just get someone to write whatever software/plugin/driver is needed to use something like the Nostromo Speedpad (designed for gaming)?
Big deal.
*ahem* Chloe. Come on, you've seen the video.
for a LIMITED TIME ONLY.... http://www.journeyed.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?FNM= 00&UID=2004032616202050&GEN0=&GEN1=&GEN2=&GEN3=&GE N4=&GEN5=&GEN6=&GEN7=&GEN8=&GEN9=index2.html&TRAN8 5=Y&T1=31886423&UREQB=1&UREQA=2&UREQC=3&UREQD= 4
Bullring
I'd like to be able to have two mice, two pointers, on the screen at the same time. Say you're working in Photoshop. It's a pain to have to go to the left-hand side to switch tools. What if you could select tools with the left-hand mouse and paint/select with the right-hand mouse? (This is different from what they are doing in that I would like two seperate, fully functioning mice and cursors.)
It ain't possible in Windows.. is anything like this doable with X under Linux?
I don't know, it could turn out to be a terrible idea in practice (end up something like trying to pat your head and rub your belly at the same time), but I think it would be neat to try..
And put your mouse on the other side.
Didn't Microsoft make a device for RTS games that was essentially a moulded puck that your left hand rested on that let you scroll in whatever direction, and perform macro'd actions? I can't recall much about it though... It was probably a "Microsoft ____ Commander" of some sort.
Michael C. Hollinger
Pretty much all they're useful is when one of your hands has become disconnected from your body, as it much slower to type with one hand(50WPM max or so), even slower than it is to switch the right hand from mouse to keyboard rapidly.
I'm still looking for this layout for KDE3/XFree86 4.4, or how to make my own layouts.
Well, being a left-hander, I do things a bit differently. I was raised with the mouse in the right hand, and that's the only way I can use it (I feel wierd using a left-handed mouse). Several years ago I got a Wacom tablet, which is a natural fit for my left hand. So now I find myself always having the mouse in the right hand, and the Wacom pen in the left, dropping both to use the keyboard, of course. It's so natural, everything flows. Mouse scroll-wheel to go through web pages, pen to quickly click on things or get down to business in Photoshop. Not sure about this new approach, I'll probably stick to what I've got. Maybe it's different for all you right-handed freaks out there. heh heh
Kip Hawley is an idiot.
I already have a Shuttlepro v2 that I use extensively in Photoshop and Illustrator.Ironically, I don't do video work but the thing is a godsend for undo/redo, zoom and other common tasks.
At between $400-$600 per device.. That two fisted computing is gonna cost you two fistfuls of cash...
The TDI Explore system (the 3D software that was purchased by Wavefront, merged with Alias and became Maya) was based on the SGI "knob box".
This was a set of 8 rotary encoders, and virtually every function used the knobs. For instance, X and Y movement would be handled by the mouse, and Z with a knob. Z, Y and Z scaling would be three more knobs. Z, Y and Z rotation would be another three.
The knob functions would change based on what object you were manipulating. So the camera would have "Field of View" as one knob, and while the mouse handled U and V translation around the target, a knob would handle "trucking" (movement towards the target).
This was everywhere in the program, and I found it to be the fastest 3D interface I've ever worked in. The whole idea of "one hand on the mouse, one on the keyboard" is actually a canard - most people actually type with both hands, and have to bring their main hand into play to type anything of any length.
Of course the system had keyboard shortcuts. But most keyboard shortcuts are used to switch the mouse's functions. With the knob box, we had 8 adjustable parameters, plus the mouse. There are few items on a 3D world that have more than 8 parameters to change at a time.
I miss it.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
You mean this thing? Yep, the "Microsoft Strategic Commander."
I've got a Powermate right here, and though it's a very cool and quite useful gadget, the SpaceTraveler seems to be in a different league.
I think it's a spinoff of the old SGI SpaceBall pointer devices, which allowed for multiple axis input - you can push, pull, and move it left and right. The powermate just turns left and right on a vertical axis and can be pressed as a button. Looking further at their other products, the SpaceBall 5000 looks a lot like the old SGI unit. The SpaceTraveler's just a smaller portable version.
Of course, they don't seem to mention how many axes of input the thing provides on the website, so I dunno.
Yes I know it's a filthy habit but substitute coffee/jolt/coke with a cigarette and that's what my left hand is being used for while doing any animation and/or general computing.
Velox Versutus Vigilans
I can't use 2 hands to use the computer, my other hand is most likely doing...other...stuff.
Yeah, paperwork.......
Paperwork.....
It's always nice to support great GPL stuff.
BTW, I'm just learning Blender and would love to know how similar Blender was to Maya. Maya is too expensive for me right now.
Laugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
The company distributes a SDK.
For the older version of these devices, before they were spun off by Logitech - seems they're supported navitely by OpenGL.
From this page.
Linux GLut-OpenGl-X. Glut v3 seems to support the Spaceball directly. Should try aeroplane demo.
As a previous poster noted, these are 6DOF devices. You can push, pull, and tilt them. Also, they have more buttons. The SpaceTraveler has 8, the SpaceBall has 12.
The devices control the position of on-screen objects in design programs
Makes sense to me; in fact I proposed such a device to Infogrip about 10 years ago.
This is not to claim that I'm some sort of genius, it just seems to be an obvious progression for someone that needs to access a lot of variable-level commands regularly.
For example, all the variations of copy, rotate, extend, offset, and the most important one: undo.
When working in 3D design, you need at least 2 views of everything since it's easy to lose perspective while you're thinking about the next move. Big, dual monitors are pretty much required becauseyou have to be able to see fine detail, and flipping screens tends to disorient the designer.
A two-handed control device is a good idea for this type of work.
Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I can draw it for you if you want.
It shouldn't be that hard to digitize every possible movement of the human hand is capable of -and provide reasonable tactile feedback(say vibration). That would open a lot of gaming and teleoperation potential if it were mass marketed.
I'm amazed it is taking so long to get there.
This is nothing particularly new. I've been using a Contour Designs ShuttlePro for years now with my left hand. It's a Jog/Shuttle controller, which you can of course use for video editing, but it's completely programmable for any other use, so I've configured it for back/forward buttons when in Mozilla, delete/compose/send/reply buttons in my mail client, scroll up/down in most applications (it's far easier on the hand then a wheel mouse), etc...
It's well worth checking out, especially because of their great programmable software which lets you do just about anything from the controller. It takes a little getting used to, but worth it in the amount of time it saves.
the $499 price tag is definately just silly. for about $35, I bought the serial version in a slightly different piece of plastic, called the SpaceTec SpaceOrb.
e re .html
:)
1. Find awesome concept company about to go under and buy.
2. Change design a little, and sell for 5-6 times the price.
3. PROFIT!
I am sorry, but I still stand behind modifying a PS2 AsciiSphere (the console version of the same hardware! check the insides! identical parts!), or just simply getting a ps2 - usb adapter. cheaper cost, same quality.
http://www.planethardware.com/spaceorb/asciisph
6 axis of awesome. Serious Sam was never quite the same after this toy
they may share the same patent. you may just be looking at non-identical commercial developments of that patent. licensing is normal business, and a patent can be an internal technology, and is not necessarily a complete description of a commercial product. code reuse: it's like two media software that are not directly competing but use the same engine.
and each company you list can say the are selling patented technology. always read the wording on that one. it's not the same as saying they invented and own the patent, or even have exlusive rights to that patent. it might just be clever ad copy that infers that.
victim.
I hear you loud and clear. Smash TV is a great game! You should set it up under MAME and play the Arcade version. --You won't be dissapointed.
Blogging because I can...
Bah, who needs Smash TV? I'm down with Karate Champ!
(Man, that thing was a beast...I dumped many pocketfuls of quarters into it, and, despite being one of the best players in town, I still don't think I had all the moves down pat.)
There is a spellbook here; eat it? [ynq]
I have played MechWarrior 2 (a game in which you pilot a walking robot) with two mouse-like input devices. This is very uncommon, and shall remain so, but having one more option is always nice.
(From this month's Game Developer Magazine), by sean wagstaff
"If you work in 3D, navigation in space probably occupies far more of your day than you realize. But just as a painter doesn't give much thought to how he positions his brush on the canvas, experienced 3D artists don't really think about moving around in three-dimensional space. Unless you're using an unfamiliar application, say, switching from Maya to 3DS Max, navigation is simply an integral part of what you do and there's not much room for improvement. Or is there?
The $599 Space Traveler, which looks like a volume control knowb (complete with a purple LED accent on the buttons around it's rim) is designed to make 3D operations faster and more intuitive.
Using the Space Traveler is almost immediately familiiar. You plug it into your USB port and install the driver software (plug-ins are provided for Maya and Max, and built into MotionBuilder, Cinema 4D, and BodyPaint 3D, but the controller doesn't work with every 3D tool). To use it, you simply push, pull, tilt, and tist the single contol knob. Your finger movements translate directly into 3D space- x,y, and z rotation and translation, often referred to as six degrees of freedom - in your application. Lift th knob and you move up in y, push it forward and you move forward in z. Twist the knob and you'll rotate in y; tilt it, and you'll pitch forward or back, left or right. The tricky part is learning not to traslate on z when you pitch on x, and not to translate on y when you actually mean to roll on z (a temporary filter can be turned on that blocks non-dominant movements). But with a few minutes worth of practice to get a feel for it, the Space Traveler becomes very natural to use, although it is quite sensitive to even fine movement. However, you'll soon find yourself tumbling a scene around as easily as you would with your standard keyboard and moust combinations, and rotating a camera is certainly more intuitive than, say SHFT-CTRL-ALT-middle-mouse dragging.
Which brings us to the most obvious question about this device: who needs it? If you're already comfortable working in a 3d application, and navigation with the standard key commands and mouse actions has become second nature, why bother with yet another input device? In my experience, many 3D operations, such as architectural modeling, dynamics, and texture manipulations, simply require too much keyboard input to benefit from the Space Traveler at all. I need my hands on the keyboard, and mouse, and instant access to pop-ups and marking menus provided by my right hand mouse button, which just doesn't leave enough hands for a third input device.
On the other hand (literally) when it comes to operations that require one-handed navigation, the SpaceTraveler is a terrific idea. For example, when sculpting an organic model or painting textures on surfaces with a Wacom tablet, you can rotate and tumble the model with one hand, while painting with the other. While doing character animation, the SpaceTraveler can be used as a low-speed motion capture input device that lets you use gestures, rather than explicit rotations, to move a joint, although you'll have to set up your characters to work with this input. The device's eight buttons can be mapped to common keyboard shortcuts, and the defaults for Maya activate the Hot Box, translate, rotate, and scale commands. However, the buttons are too small with terrible ergonomics, and I still need to use the keyboard for other commands, such as the marking menus.
The SpaceTraveler, as the name implies, is small and portable. Although on-the-road walkthroughs of real-time-3D scenes seem unlikely, I found the SpaceTraveler useful as an accessory to a high-end 3D laptop for bringing work home. My Compaq runs all my 3D applications, but the built-in trackpad is all but useless for 3D navigation, and the keyboard is cramped, with a non-standard layout, which also makes navigation clumsy. The SpaceTraveler really i
Ok, so as far as I understand it, this thing is just a knob with a bunch of buttons. Your normal mouse controls the X and Y axes, and the knob controls the Z axis.
That sounds pretty useful... but I still don't understand... what does this thing have that a scroll wheel doesn't? Couldn't you just control the Z axis with a scroll wheel?
(I've never done any 3d modeling, so feel free to enlighten me =).
Whatever that is, it better involve keeping my pants on.
the little knob with the fancy brushed metal look and blue LED's is cool and small, but really it's just a
/. but clearly old news.
Spaceball.
They have been around for a long time. CAD programs such as, Pro/e, I-deas, Solid Edge, Maya, Alias Studio Tools and others all have support for these devices, though Maya only recently joined that group for some reason.
The primary advantage is being able to very quickly establish a particular point of view for working on the model. A secondary one is to be able to dynamically change that point of view without having to leave the command you are in, or divert your mental attenion away from the task at hand.
Most other input schemes involving the keyboard and mouse cause you to give up your current state only to rotate or scale the model then re-establish said state. With one of these it is possible to be picking on things, making decisions, assembling parts all while moving (or flying as I see it) around the model space.
They also save considerable time over traditional nav tools, even if they are well developed and mature tools. Most nav tools have the hardest time helping the user deal with large changes in scale or orientation. Often the best comprimise is to use stored views in lieu of many repetitive command, mouse drag, command mouse drag sequences.
These devices allow motion in all 6 degrees of freedom without any context changes. A simple pull of the knob upward maintained for a half-second or so, combined with a slow twist throughout can perform the same function as zoom all, pan, zoom window or area, and rotate commands do.
(Picture looking at one small part of a 1000 part assembly knowing the next item of interest lies behind you and to the left. If you were to just 'move' there that is what these little devices do. Using the keyboard and mouse is like telling somebody else where the item is and how you would like to get there. --For what that is worth!)
They tend to be costly little buggers though.
It takes about 2 hours to bond with the device. After that, you will either love it, or hate it. A lot of this depends on the tool at hand as well. Some CAD tools have pretty good nav tools, so you don't have as much pain dealing with them. Others basically demand a controller like this (hey Unigraphics!) to get work done in a reasonable manner.
This new little toy has 5 or 6 little buttons around the edge that can be programed for different tasks. The device communicates via USB. Most programs need a driver of sorts, though they can be downloaded for free from the website. Some packages have the support built-in. (I-deas, Unigraphics, Pro/e, Alias Studio, others...)
If you have large hands, this particular model will annoy you because it is little. Get one of the older devices that looks more like a hockey puck attached to a little stand. --Easier to manupulate, cheaper, and works exactly the same way.
Personally, I really like these things. Having used a number of CAD programs over the years, I can say they make a big difference. Traditional MCAD programs benefit most from the device when users are performing assembly and modeling, though to a lesser degree for the latter.
They are almost useless for 2D tasks because very few drafting / detailing programs actually make use of the device. For those that do, being able to pan and zoom while picking is nice, but often not much of a help over traditional view manupulation tools.
You can also do bizzarre things with it as well. Doing fly-through animations manually, just by flying around the model is pretty cool. It's easy to whip one of these out compared to keyframing all the different camera locations, or setting up many different views in an MCAD package.
If you are lucky enough to have a workstation configured with the 3D glasses and higher end MCAD software, you will find visualization tasks are excellent using one of these, but the 3D will give you a headache after about 30 minutes.
Anyway, cool stuff that I am happy to see on
Blogging because I can...
Almost every tool has a key attached to it, so you can switch to it. In 3d programs, learning the hotkeys is necesarry to do anything in a reasonable ammount of time. In photoshop it's less necessary, but still a tremendous time saver.
Pressing "m" for marquee would be faster than moving a mouse to the toolbox and click the tool. Also, you'd need AMAZING hand eye coordination to use two mice at once. Just try using one with your left hand (or right, if you're a lefty).
Everything seemed to be going so nice
'till the end of all beings punched right through the ice
I already use my mouse with my left hand, you insensitive clods!
I'm looking to get rich. I've got steps #2 (????) and #3 (PROFIT!) planned out, but am having trouble coming up with #1.
With a post title like that, you know you've just gotta browse at -1 and scroll straight to the bottom...
Isn't a lot of the top hollywood (new zealand?) CG created with Maya? From what I know of Maya it is like 3D Studio Max or Lightwave, only better (and more expensive) and it's highly customizable/extendable. I have heard that a lot of the big studios primarily use very custom installs of Maya and something called Renderman (or something similar). Please correct me if I am wrong, I have virtually no 3D modeling experience. I was just suprised that /.ers are more ignorant than I about what I presumed is the state of the art in CG software.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Well said and not a silly observation. Actually CAD *is* now a lot like that, and becoming moreso. The difference between the best CAD and the best animation software is that the CAD stuff associates material properties along with the stuff on the screen via databases.
Not much different from how animation software incorporates physics (how does a ball bounce naturally?).
The best engineering software can simulate actual, individual grades of steel and how they react under loads.
of the 2d screen because they allow you to associate 3d motion to actual 3d motion with your hand.
Pulling very lightly upward on one of these will slowly move you toward the model. A sharp tug followed by a slow release rips you toward the model with a nice slowdown just at the end, etc...
You will find using one of these handy when doing things like shaping surfaces. You can select a group of control points then use the mouse to manupulate them while also roving around the model to see it from different angles.
Think sculpting with one eye closed and the model in your hand.
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moves in all axis at once.
See my earlier post for a better description than that.
It is also spring loaded so it returns to its position all the time and does not spin all the way around.
When you apply pressure, the pressure equates to motion along the axis in the model space you are working in.
Blogging because I can...
Happen to enjoy using my computer as well. I have purchased several retro game packages for a number of systems.
In general, they do a good job. Sometimes the choices they make for television display, or the lack of proper controls for the game spoil the mechanics.
Would be damn nice for them to sell me the ROM as well. I would gladly pay for it. --That game is worth it.
Why not get an account and discuss the matter proper?
Blogging because I can...
Jeez, that's a weird writeup. Anyway, Maya already works really well with two handed input: it was designed that way. I remember watching a technical demonstration video back when Maya was still going to be the next version of Sketch, and they were shewing off the chording and hotkey systems that survive to this day. Really a fabulously efficient program... lots of opportunities for constructive muscle memory, which isn't the sort of thing that comes up a lot in software beyond learning to touchtype. I would much rather keep one hand on my (wacom tablet) three button mouse and another on the keyboard where all my hotkeys are than only have another three buttons under my left hand. Actually, part of the video had someone -- Mr. Marking Menus himself, Bill Buxton -- demonstrating simultaneous 16-button puck and stylus input on a graphics tablet, using chording on the puck to manipulate the view and call up menus. That looked awesome. Just like holding a piece of paper with your left hand while drawing with your right.
You mean like the right- and left-handed variants of the Dvorak keyboard layout? OSes these days come with many keyboard mappings installed, and many (Win, Linux, Mac at the least) include the most-used Dvorak layout, ANSI Dvorak, and both one-handed layouts. I use Dvorak in WinXP, Linux CLI and X-Windows.
$ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
Wasn't that also a 3D game controller? What ever happened to that?
In my case it was a complete unstable distal radius fracture and dislocation of the distal ulna.
The hard part is using other people's mice. Most mice are really only designed for right-handers. I actually find a trackball best, as It doesn't have to move around so it keeps my left hand close to the keyboard. Qwerty keyboards are left-biassed for writing text, which is a blessing when you can't use your right hand, but moving back and forth to the mouse is a pain.
...but I'm still going to need a free hand, so I'm not sure how useful this really is.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
Errr... did anyone look at the prices? That little do-dad shown in the article is $599!
Yikes! I could think of a lot better ways to spend that much money...
I have found another interesting link on two fisted computing. Well, it's not quite computing per se, but it does have to do with technology... err, VHS tapes still count as "technology" don't they?
Check it out here.
The good ol' two-fisted approach.
Yes, Maya is used in a number of high end 3d design shops, including many, if not all, that make 3d animated movies and special effects (think Shrek, etc). Renderman is a rendering plugin that allows for better looking renders. I've used it, and it does indeed look better, but I'm not expert enough to tell you what the algorithmic difference is. I believe Renderman was developed at Pixar, as a point of trivia.
Maya itself, after a recent price cut, still runs in the thousands of dollars, depending upon which version you get, but there was and may still be a Personal Learning Edition for free on Alias|Wavefront's site. It can't save as files that can be read by the real version, and its renders are watermarked right across the center, but I would suggest you check it out if you're interested. And then there's the open-source Blender, which I just started messing with. It seems pretty good, especially for the price.
Yeah, you are also right that Maya is a lot like 3DSMax or Lightwave (neither of which I've used, as a matter of fact), but it is indeed supposed to be better. I don't know a huge amount about 3d modelling, but I like to think I'm not that bad at Maya. So, you know, maybe an expert here can chip in.
thanks, but i need one hand free
I have both the mame version and the arcade game, and I can say with authority that it is not the same. Not even close. The 'feel' is way off.
Then the real fun of the game, stomping your friends, can't really be done on a PC. You just have to be able to shoulder the poor twit out of the way while you grab the valuable prizes.
-Charlie
Being a southpaw as well I use the same setup when I work in photoshop. I am an artist and usually draw on paper with my left and draw in photoshop with my right. What is weird is I can not swap and draw on paper with my right and use a normal mouse with my left. The wacom tablet solved all of this for me. I can use either hand to control the mouse and freely change "jobs" between them. I guess it would be the equivilent of holding a pencil with both hands. The mind is a weird weird thing...
Two-fisted what? This is a public forum people.
Ban Reality TV!
Their MSRP's are horribly high, they cost as much as a small computer in most cases. I would love to own one of their left handed 3D manipulators for use in MAYA.....it gets wierd using a keyboard when my artistic background involves sculpting and pottery. I just see some of those products being worth 400 dollars for a mouse, or even 600-700 in their higher end models. Seems to me they are priced for companies who have money to blow in the wrong places.
You are FIRED!
stuff
Don't most slashdotters already do this? One hand on their mouse, browsing a pr0n site, and the other hand on their joystick?
I use it to precisely control time code in DVD Studio Pro + don't forget it can cut a Macintosh on ... you can line up up to 8 of them in parallel and use EACH ONE seperately for a different task.
I have been told by the people who are using it with Garageband that having multiple units is almost a necccesity.
See the software and firmware download section at Griffin for details.
A company called MacMice used to sell a thing called the "Matedeck" that organized PowerMates into a nice little hub.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
IBM had this similar device for CATIA on AIX back in the late 90's. Still a nice idea for modelling programs that have the natural functional split between modify and move.
"The new wave is not value-added; it's garbage-subtracted" - Esther Dyson, Dec 1994
http://www.thereminworld.com/f o/
;)
http://theremin.in
Though I suspect you might end up glowing in the dark after a long session in that magnetic field
I`ve often wanted a foot pedal, maped to the escape key, kind of like the high-beam switch in old cars.
It would have to be robust, though, and equiped with dampers and pads. Otherwise, at the end of a long day, I`d injur myself stamping on it. It might start a whole new syndrome, "Autocad knee."
It produces better looking renders for a couple of reasons. First, they support just about every rendering gizmo under the sun (ie it was designed from the beginning with support for motion blur). Next, the textures and lighting are handled by an extremely scriptable shading engine (actually, scripting may not even be the right word here since you actually compile your shaders). Finally, since it is scriptable, it seems like a lot of academics in the graphics section of computer science use Renderman as the test bed for their ideas, resulting in Renderman usually being the first place to pull off a new technique (ie subsurface scattering).
I've heard about controllers for manipulating the position of objects in 3D/CAD applications before.
Eg. Magellan 3D
Link
My left hand device is my keyboard, or you can type your bash commands with that shit? I dont think so.
Microsoft came out with a "controller for the left hand" that added a ton of features/functionality a little while ago - I think it has since been discontinued. It wasn't that sensitive for motion (the buttons were fine and it even had chording) but then again I'm right-handed...
Strategic Commander
Or a keyboard/mouse? You could attach it at the wrists and move the entire keyboard for pointer navigation when necessary.
...that headline is gross. Why does there have to be an innuendo in everything written on slashdot? And not to mention, having two mice is just a bad idea because most slashdotters like to browse the web with one hand free for... nevermind.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
isn't off topic!
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...
The author mentions doing something like you did (reading the raw code directly from the serial port) and then was forced to switch to USB mice because the serial ones are pretty much impossible to find now.
No bindings for python, but those shouldn't be too difficult to write... swig maybe?
yknow... ive been looking for some way to hook up 2 mouses & get 2 mouse pointers... so far, no matter what i do, you can hook up all the mouses you want & they all control the same pointer.
is anybody aware of a way to do this & get 2 pointers?
Oh, how I miss SmashTV!
For any of those also reminiscing in the Portland, OR area -- there was one in the train station downtown last I checked.
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
I knew someone here had to know something about this stuff. Thanks for clearing that up!
I was a beta tester for Photoshop's first windows version when I was working at a photo lab trying to market a PC optimized for photographers.
Brian Lamkin (head of photoshop division) stopped by the lab, and we showed him how the Shima Sekie (a $300K retouching system) worked with a trackball and tablet. The retoucher could scroll around or zoom with the trackball while painting with the tablet.
We then showed him our PC with Kurta tablet and trackball with button remapped to the shift key, so as a kludge it was working similarly to the Shima.
A few weeks later we heard from Adobe that they decided it wasn't worthwhile for them to make the changes needed to support multiple inputs that acted differently (one as view one as paint) in the program.
Clearly, and I don't use that word lightly, simple math dictates that we need two mice for the coming crop of 3d GUIs. Krack's Law states: "The number of mice should equal the number of dimensions represented in the GUI minus one." This is intersting because I like driving simulators. I learned to brake with my left foot in the video game then went out, got in my car and was able to brake with no real training. My point is that I think we can adapt to two mice, only if they start to redesign keyboard trays though.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
I was just discussing this issue minutes before reading this post. Ah, hotkeys, sounds like a good plan but I can't get myself to use them (completely, that is) because I am an artistic user (oh yes we do exist and we even read slashdot) and eye-hand coordination is easier than muscle-memory for me. And besides, there are mouse shortcuts out there too.
This issue was brought up as I was sitting down to play a game of Dungeon Siege with my boyfriend and setting up hotkeys that I know I will probably never use because my reflexes are highly tuned for eye-hand and less so for muscle memory. So I naturally reach for the mouse when being attacked by monsters and not the keyboard.
Since the post was directed to those of us who are interested in its applications for Photoshop and 3D rendering programs. . . Makes sense to me.
Failed to spell "toggling" correctly though.
Astro
In fact, this isn't even news in terms of consumer-level devices. Microsoft (who I'm sure we all agree should make more hardware and less software) used to make a left-hand HID called the "Strategic Commander". It was shaped like the relief of a hand and designed to be used by draping your whole hand over it. You could rock the device on the 2D plane thanks to LRF technology, and it had programmable buttons under each finger (a couple by the thumb, I believe).
It seems to me that the main reason it didn't become popular is that it was horribly marketed: the "Strategic" in its name was because it was intended for RTS games. I believe Starcraft was the top RTS game when it was released, but of course Starcraft is 2D and therefore a second movement device was only useful so far as you wanted to prevent having to move the mouse to the side of the screen to scroll around; of course scrolling around was simple enough that it could be easily accomplished by arrow keys. Even worse, in my opinion, was the idea that a few programmable keys made up for the whole keyboard, when clearly that is not the case for two major uses of hotkeys in Starcraft: command group control and navigating the build hierarchy.
A much better use, and the one I'd love to experiment with if I ever got my hands on a SC, is 3D shooters: left-hand movement is continuous, fewer buttons are typically used, and people are more willing to pay for hardware that gives them a tiny speed improvement. I can only imagine that MS decided this wasn't its market because Microsoft doesn't produce 3DSs.
Has anyone out there used one of these? I'd love to hear your comments.
It is extremely handy when used with a 3D CAD program like SolidWorks. We use the CadMan product from 3DConnexion and it speeds up manipulation of the complex solid assemblies both for creation and for subsequent on-screen verification. They are not for everyone however, just as some people prefer CRT over Flat Panel... - Mac
I don't know if it appeared in the demo or not, but I do remember that he originally intended the workstations to use two mice (one for each hand), a keyboard, and a set of pedals (for the feet, control or shift functions) to control the system.
I guess this stuff is so old, it is "new" again...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
is the shit for sure. Can't argue about that. However, lacking space and dollars for cabinets, emulators provide a fairly good experience for a lot of the games.
Your comments about ROBOTRON 2084, SMASH T.V., DEFENDER/STARGATE, and TEMPEST are spot on.
These games trigger an altered state of consiousness I have always called the trance. Getting good at these games basically required the ability to reach this state rather quickly, then maintain it. Tempest & Defender worked well for me. Robotron and Smash TV wanted to work, but I could never quite get there for long enough to really say I nailed the game, but I enjoyed trying.
Man, these games were intense. The level of interaction, between eye, brain and hand, is extremely high. Actually reaching that state where sustained play at the higher levels is addicting. (I still will play any of these on sight, no matter what.)
I would add a 2600 game to the list --KABOOM!. Very simple game, turn the paddle to catch the falling bombs. It's fast in the way the other games are, but you can trance easier because the game mechanics are dead simple to master, unlike the dual joystick of ROBOTRON, or the complex control panel of DEFENDER.
Smash TV is ROBOTRON in the way you describe. I really liked the atmosphere the game presented compared to ROBOTRON. The sounds in ROBOTRON are better though.
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Go Whiterat! Finally got a story posted... After all these years of working, slaving, toiling, and torture.
Well, at least clicking, copying, pasting and typing.
Anyhoo...
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.