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RFID for Automobile Tracking
mindless4210 writes "The U.S. Department of Transportation's Federal Highway Administration has called on four of the largest RFID manufacturers to jointly develop dedicated short-range communications technology systems for a trial as part of the agency's efforts to cut road fatalities in the U.S. by 50% within 10 years. The DSRC prototype initiative is a prerequisite for introducing new roadway applications such as issuing alerts to drivers about impending intersection collisions, rollovers, weather-related road hazards, or warning a driver that his vehicle is going too fast to safely negotiate an upcoming curve. The FCC allocated the entire 5.9 GHz band to DSRC applications some time ago, making the development much more feasible. Any DRSC system would require DRSC technology to be built into new vehicles."
Can you even begin to think about the privacy implications of something like this? I know that I will never buy a car with RFID tracking capabilities built into it! What happens when the government agencies that don't care so much about your rights--CIA, FBI, NSA, police, whatever--decide that this system can be very useful for them? There's a million things that could go wrong
This is the article that I originally posted to slashdot.
Wireless News www.DailyWireless
[...] such as issuing alerts to drivers about impending intersection collisions, rollovers, weather-related road hazards, or warning a driver that his vehicle is going too fast to safely negotiate an upcoming curve
Riiiiiight... they're wanting this system incorporated to protect you. They'd never dream of setting up receivers in traffic lights at (major) intersections to track the movement of people. Watch: it will be a crime to disable these systems, "for your safety" of course.
Yeah, yeah; I may need a tinfoil hat. Ask yourself, though, do you feel safer?
Trolling is a art,
It's one of those privacy tradeoffs that actually looks quite good.
:)
RFID couldn't be used at this stage to track all the cars in the USA
so the chance of it impinging on your privacy is rather low.
However, with estimates of a 50% reduction in road deaths.. That's quite a dividend.
I for one welcome our new RFID overlords
Simon.
Now I just have to figure out a way to get my car into the microwave...
If i put my car in the microwave the dash will explode?
Last one in jail is a fascist.
Michelan has had rfid chips in ther tires far a while. Anyone that wants to can already track you if you own these tires.
... tin foil hat and used car sales skyrocket.
..I'm all for improving highway safety, but in a grand cosmic sorta way, we're kinda fvcking with the order of nature here. Certain numbers of people HAVE to die and the couple hundred thousand taken out by cars and trucks every year is an effective way to curtail the population, especially the idiots prone to substance abuse (I'm one of them, but my numbers haven't come up yet...I'm excited for tomorrow though..)
And plus, if we put RFID tags in cars, Ashcroft has won. And thats no good.
Makes me yearn for the good ole days of carburators and no electronics on the car.
On second thought, it is coming from the government. So it must be for the best..
Within a decade, tracking devices will be placed in the license-plate package. From speeding tickets to FBI-tracking, you are all the government's bitches; suck it down.
And you thought red light cameras were bad. Think about using technology such as this to find out a distance traveled in a certain amount of time. If each tag is tied to a specific vehicle, you could be getting all sorts of traffic citations in the mail. I think this is a horrible idea...
and don't forget that all of you registered slashdot users handed over personal information when you registered that the FBI could use.
If they limit it to sending alerts about severe weather and accidents. Lets hope if the gov't decides to go ahead with it they will limit it to that....
i could've sworn that i read a while back that a strong surge of electricity applied to the chip would fry it and disable it.
was i imagining this?
... ...
.. another save by Uncle Sam.
applications such as issuing alerts
(while seated in a board meeting, 28th floor overlooking metropolis, a small internal voice speaks)
"Sorry for this brief intrusion. This is your government speaking. The RFID tag embedded in your ass notified us moments ago. It appears as if you want to fart. This is just a warning - farting now, may be a bad idea, and could have unexpected consequences, and possible adverse career effects."
How about butcher it so it is only a receiver so you get the benefits without the Asscroftian Big Brother transmitter?
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
I can't wait till the readers are mounted at stop lights and over passes to monitor your speed...5 miles or more over and you get a ticket in the mail =)
watch fatalities, gas consumption drop and attitudes improve.
I am for that 100%
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
It's time to start hoarding older vehicles and parts.
Of course, if it comes to that, the tags will then be put into tires or other wear items.
it makes me laugh to think that there are still people out there that think the Republican party is pro small government.
I can just imagine hundreds of thousands of angry drivers getting speeding tickets in the mail after the RFID sent to the DMV detected they exceeded the speed limit. I prefer to be pulled caught and pulled over the old-fashioned(TM) way thank you.
Everytime someone mentions RFID, the privacy people get to sound off about being tracked and the government being out to get them
The article makes no mention of using this technology for anything other than alerting drivers about road conditions and paying tolls. Even the article title here on slashdot is misleading in that regard.
House of Delegates bans detector-detector-detector-detector ... ad-infinitum
RICHMOND, VA (AP) -- The House of Delegates has sent a bill to Gov. Warner making blocking RFID on cars illegal. They also appropriated $5 million to the State Police to equip trooper's cars with RFID blocker detectors and have set aside a portion of that money to buy RFID blocker detector-detector-detectors and made the posession of RFID blocker detector-detectors illegal. Any further detector-detectors will be made illegal barring a Commonwealth-wide brain explosion trying to understand it all. Virginia State Troopers are renowned as the Grey-Wheeled Wild Weasels because their cruisers resemble law-enforcement scale versions of electronic warfare airplanes used in Vietnam. The average cruiser has 4 alternators and 20 batteries used to power hundreds of radios, radars, VASCARs, remote rectal probes and other detection equipment, thus rendering the Old Dominion deserving of its nickname.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
First a chip in my head and now a RFID chip in my car. I'd be worried if i was interesting enough to be tracked.
warning a driver that his vehicle is going too fast to safely negotiate an upcoming curve
:)
I hope it doesn't beep, that could get annoying real fast.
"weather-related road hazards, or warning a driver that his vehicle is going too fast to safely negotiate an upcoming curve."
Who decides when a car is going to fast??? I live in Michigan and if your going the speed limit that's to slow. Would they warn you based on a spped limit or what the road is rated at. The expressways here are rated for safe speeds at 20 or 30 miles an hour faster than the speed limit. This is also different depending on the car. A jeep can topple over easier than a grand prix (for example). Who decides these things????
Evolution or ID?
no one has ever heard about driver training?
Let's get the idiots off the road.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
i don't see it as a big privacy concern...it's like saying a licence plate is a security issue...i mean take the tin foil hats off...your cell phone notifys where you are and even if it dosent if the wanna find you or track you they will and you wont even know about it...any type of comunication device can be tracked by triagulation....example is you have 2 microphones 100 yards a part and somone screem or a gun is fiered...as the sound hits the mics at difrent times and based on the location of the mics and the data they recive you can calculate the exact location of the source...same thing can be done to anything like radio waves and other frequincies...if you dont like it then move to garaho land ...other than that no reason to worry.
No, the DSRC prototype initiative is NOT a prerequisite to introducing the proposed new roadway safety applications. None of the proposed safety applications require individual identification of a vehicle. An application could issue the planned alerts and warnings without specifying or identifying the vehicle or its owner. If you are issuing a warning about a road hazard, or that vehicle is going too fast to make an upcoming turn, the identity of the vehicle and of the owner are irrelevant.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
I can't believe this guy is a teetotaler.
I mean I've put up a better and more coherrent public defence of my spending and dubious affairs in front of the board of our corporation even when I've been royally hungover and weak on facts.
Cheap RFID pretty much undermines their entire business.
With driving habits like that it's only a matter of time before someone is injured or killed. I may see one patrol car a week on this long heavily travelled stretch, usually on Friday.
Short of trackng drivers with a satellite the authorities aren't going to know it even happened. Then there's the matter of who was driving the car. Much to my chagrin, after a hit and run, I found the San Jose, CA, police could care less if I have a license number, description of car and could identify the face of the driver. Just fill out the forms and your insurance company will take care of it.
It's hard to feel one way of the other about this. How does John Ashcroft feel about it? I'll probably trend the other way, but I don't think this will solve anything.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Then again, perhaps they could team up with private companies to install this and WiFi into street lamps, kinda like this plan in the UK. That might get things rolling a bit faster.
What they really want to know is what you are doing at all times. Oh, and automatic speeding tickets can't be too far into the future. Why not just kill us now? I'd hate to live in the future America envisioned by our current "leaders."
- Compulsory seat-belt use (works in my area)
- Mandatory helmet laws for motorcyclists (agan, works in my area)
- Zero tolerance for liquored-up drivers
- Restricted permits for new drivers (no rush hour, no driving between sunset and sun-up, etc).
- Governors on all engines so that it's not possible to exceed the speed limit
- Increased penalties for racing, reckless driving, etc.
- Removal of so-called "restricted permits" for people who have accumulated too many demerits.
- Mandatory retesting for anyone who has lost their license because of moving violations or booze.
- Get rid of "road tanks" (SUVs) that make people think they're invulnerable.
Of course, the above aren't techno-sexy ways of saving lives. But they would work. And, for those who are going to point out that these are unreasonable restrictions on freedoms, there's no such thing as a "right" to drive. It's a privilege.Well, I guess police wont have to worry about funding anymore.
Link RFIDs to the already instated Cameras and the auto-fined-mailer and youve got a steady stream of income from speeders.
Not that this would _EVER_ be abused for something like this. Its for our saftey.
*cough*
no
Let's hook it up with the electronic billboards mentioned earlier today!
"Hey irving47! You wanna slow it down a bit? You have 10 seconds to comply!"
I had a sucky sig.
This is only very Loosely connected to RFID. in fact it's mostly journalist and executive hype throwing around a tech term to try and sound informed...
This will mostly amount to another alarm to annoy the driver....
"bing! you are exceeding the speed limit for this zone...."
"bing! there WAS a 13 car crash 3 miles from here underneat the "no reported road problems" sign...."
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
On the one hand, I'm not sure I oppose this system on principle. There's a lot of bad drivers out there (I'm lookin' at you, California and Utah), and something to say "Hey, assmuch, would it kill you to slow the hell down and stop putting on your mascara eating a bagle talking on your cell phone to your wife and just friggin' drive your car?"
On the other side, there's two things that I believe in:
a) Visible Law Enforcement
b) Leave the rest of us alone
You don't "punish" the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. You want to make the roads safe? Get more cops driving out there. Last time I checked, having more police (assuming good training, obey civil liberties, etc) on the roads tends to majorly disrupt crime of most kinds - whether its speeding, accidents, selling drugs, whatever. Those of us that are innocents will wave to the nice policeperson as we drive by knowing that Mr. Cruise Control keeps us from getting pulled over, while the idiot who likes to ride my bumper because I don't want to go 80 in the 65 MPH zone will think twice before passing on the right shoulder.
Without making me feel like a criminal in my own car because it has to remind me how to drive.
Just my $0.02. I could be wrong.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
The DSRC system will be more like a peer-to-peer system in which either end of a link can initiate a transaction; traditional RFID systems operate in a master-slave arrangement. This peer-to-peer architecture will be necessary because many planned applications are vehicle-to-vehicle ones, not involving the roadside RFID readers at all.
Excellent. So I'll be able to send a message to the jerk behind me, telling him to "STOP FRICKEN TAILGAITING, YOU NIMROD!"
Either that or share MP3's...
'Nuff said.
"Ask yourself, though, do you feel safer?"
I'll learn to hack my car so I don't have to deal with it. Even if my car gets it's own tim foil hat. But..... all those idiot, dumbass drunks out on the road at 2am will get busted and not hit me. I do feel safer.
Evolution or ID?
Will this thing send me the phone number of the jack ass in front of me so I can call him and get him out of the fast lane? ...hey, I'm beginning to like this thing.
Better yet, how about the number of hottie in the convertable next to me?
I guess my real question is this: when is it OK for the government to implement surveillance, tracking, monitoring, etc. in order to save lives? Or are we so afraid of own governments that we can't afford to allow such things?
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Break out the tin-foil hats and the conspiracy theories!! it's party-time!!!
I know that I will never buy a car with RFID tracking capabilities built into it!
Your state will just put it in your license plate. Watch for it.
After all, they already hang a number on your car and require it to be visible - to eyes and to OCR cameras. Why not require it to be readable by radio, and save themselves some cost and flakeyness by replacing cameras with transcievers?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Without trying to sound too stupid because I did not read the article, but why is RFID needed?
I used to have a radar detector that would alert me to traffic problems when they were broadcast by the city/state/federal agencies.
Seems to me, all we need is a simple receiver built into the car that would receive the message from a low power transmitter along the roads.
The transmitter would broadcast messages such as "Curve only safe at 25 MPH or less", then the receiver repeats the message. If the receiver is really slick it could tell me that I'm over 25 MPH and should slow down.
I'm not certain why they would need to know my car is in the area.
If they have a RFID chip in your car, it's just an incremental change to link the chip to your engine. IF the "authorities" want to stop you, they know exactly where your car is and they can turn it off....just like Tom Cruise in Minority Report.
2. Mandatory helmet laws for motorcyclists (agan, works in my area)
3.Zero tolerance for liquored-up drivers
4. Restricted permits for new drivers (no rush hour, no driving between sunset and sun-up, etc).
5. Governors on all engines so that it's not possible to exceed the speed limit
6. Increased penalties for racing, reckless driving, etc.
7. Removal of so-called "restricted permits" for people who have accumulated too many demerits.
8. Mandatory retesting for anyone who has lost their license because of moving violations or booze.
9. Get rid of "road tanks" (SUVs) that make people think they're invulnerable.
AND
"...there's no such thing as a "right" to drive. It's a privilege."
I hate when people try to justify socialism or communism.
How do you KNOW 100% that the seat belt laws work, or that helmut laws work? The ONLY thing that is known is that it raises revenues for police departments.
It serves to add confusion to honesty. There ARE instances where it's OK not to have on a helmut on and there ARE instances where you may not have your seat belt on (ie, getting your wallet out or scratching your unmentionables) - you want to have to go and explain that in court? You want the judge to believe you?
I'm in agreeance with points 6, 7, and 8. but the others are nonsense and then justified with "right and privelege talk" - it is MY right to do whatever I want in this country - it is MY responsibility to make others safe and NOT infringe on the well being and laws of this country!
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
putting on your mascara, eating a bagel, talking on your cell phone to your wife...
I guess this is California, and not Utah?
you know, if I were rich enough, I would send every member in the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches in the Federal Governement and all of the State Governements a copy of 1984, and Fahrenheit 451
That's asuming of course that they read it. Even then, it still would be one hell of a political statement!
They could reduce traffic fatalities by MORE than 50% if they would get those monstrous SUVs off the road. SUVs kill five times as many people each year as cars or minivans, due to their incredible weight, rigid construction (no crumple zones) and high-set, rigid bumpers. Add to that all the idiots with a GI Joe fantasy who put huge menacing grill guards on the front to make their vehicle even more deadly and to protect their precious headlights when they pulverize a Honda Accord.
You want to reduce traffic fatalities? Forget RFID. First convence every soccer mom in America that she doesn't need an eight thousand pound tank to haul her latte and cell phone to the office. Then convince every soccer dad in America that putting his wife and teenager behind the wheel of a Mac truck doesn't make them safer drivers.
You'll have your work cut out for you, because SUV commercials are telling people exactly the opposite.
They would really crack down on DUI and DWI. These are the leading causes of vehicle related deaths.
However, it would affect people like Sen. Kenedy, so we cannot do that...
50% reduction with RFID? 75% if you stop letting people with a DUI on their record drive. I personally know people with 3 and 4 DUI CONVICTIONS on their record...
They haven't killed anyone that I know of, but it is just a matter of time...
RFID for vehicles seems crazy to me. RFID only works when the tags are carried by cooperative people.
When RFID tags are carried by people who may not be cooperative, or in situations where they can be damaged or switched to another vehicle, there can be chaos. Remember the RF of RFID refers to "Radio Frequency". That means they can't be put in a steel box. They must be exposed.
The government of the state of Oregon in the U.S. proposed to tax people by the number of miles they drove in Oregon counties, using Global Positioning receivers and RFID tags. That would be easy for the government, but, of course, there would be people whose cars said that they drove 10,000 miles in the mountains of Peru last week.
Tin foil hat for my car
impending intersection collisions,
"Warning! Warning! You are about to collide in an intersection!"
rollovers,
"Warning! Warning! You are about to roll over!"
weather-related road hazards,
"Warning! Warning! You are about to be struck by lightning!"
or warning a driver that his vehicle is going too fast to safely negotiate an upcoming curve.
"Warning! Warning! You are about to careen off the road and crash!"
Ok, ok, I'm joking. 'nuff said. :-)
Welcome to the net of 1000 lies. Upgrades are scheduled soon that should bring us to the 10,000 lies mark.
A large percentage of accidents are cause by someone not paying attention. Like going through a red light while distracted, or not being able to respond in time to a sudden stop. Usually, when people are near an accident, they are paying attention becasue the traffic conditions have changed.
It would only be a matter of time before any warning was deligated to 'background noise'/
Secondly, I imagine this turning into the device that Corbin Dallas had in his cab in 5th element.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Since when is it necessary to identify the vehicle (and its occupant) in order to transmit a warning. There are already car stereo systems that respond to broacast traffic alerts amongst other things. There is no need to identify a specific vehicle.
Here's an idea. Instead of placing RFID sensors all over creation to identify vehicles and "make things safer", how about installing short range transmitters in all of those same locations and only have receivers in the cars. If an accident occurs, simply light up the transmitters in the proximity of the accident and everyone in that area can receive the signal. Is that so complicated? No! In fact it is already done that way in many places.
There is NO safety advantage in identifying the actual vehicle. There is however a tremendous surveilence opportunity as well as the abillity to issue fines remotely. Toll collection costs can be reduced too and then new toll collection schemes can be established. Wonderful things like the UK's congestion surcharge. I can't wait for my chance to pay $20 to drive through downtown!
Okay... and whose gonna pay for all these crazy RFID things? Us citizens? Forget that, cars are plenty expensive enough as is, with all those features. Next we'll have RFID's with 'features' such as "auto-positioning" (only $300 extra!). Yeesh. It might be okay if they used the increased revenue from traffic tickets to pay for the RFID tags, but that wont happen. Insurance companies are gonna try to force these in; to save them money - why dont we let them pay for the RFID tags?
I'm from the goverment and I'm here to help you ....
you can sure bet that opening the box in your car to hack it will get you sent straight to jail.
some cool things could be done with it for sure....
This topic was the april fool's joke this year of the german computer magazine c't (Google translation). I was relieved after notecing that it was a joke, but now I'm a bit scared...
I can't believe whats going on in the world today, it seems like privacy is disapearing off the face of the planet. Why are their so many accidents on the roads today, not because of fast drivers but because of bad drivers. The united states has one of the worst driver education programs in the world, and that translates to one of the worst accident and death rates in the world. Look at Germany, and many other european countries, they all have faster speed limits and way less accidents and deaths. Is it because they have more monitoring, NO. Its because their driver education programs actually teach you how to drive. If a sign says 65 mph here in the USA people will go at whatever speed they feel comfortable at. You ever see those signs that say max recommend speed limit 15 mph going around a turn. Well their is a big difference between a Semi Truck and a Ferrari, how can they only say one speed limit for the both of those. The Ferrari could safely make that turn at 35, and the truck at 15. We don't need more monitoring in the USA and more loss of privacy, we need better educated drivers. How would you like if the government equiped a chip on your computer that would send all the links you went to, to a group of servers where it sorted through and if you went to a site on their black list you would be sent a fine or maybe sent to jail. Its the same thing, people want freedom on the roads, and freedom on the internet.
4 factors which are statistically significant predictors of your chance of being involved in a road accident.
The ones which you can affect most are milage and obervational errors. Reduce your milage. Get training, if you have had training, get advanced training.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
All your Rabbit belong to us.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
I mean I've put up a better and more coherrent public defence of my spending and dubious affairs in front of the board of our corporation even when I've been royally hungover and weak on facts.
Please, don't make fun of our president.
It Hurts The Country.(TM)
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Michelin has been embedding RFID tags in tires for quite awhile now.
another example
So, seat belts work. And seat belt laws are not revenue-generators for the cops. A cop makes more overtime dealing with dead bodies than in giving out a ticket for a seat belt violation.You wrote:
In my jurisdiction (Quebec) both motorcycle helmets and seat belt use have been mandatory for decades, and people learned to scratch their itches without having to remove either one.
You're claiming a "right", but you could end up dead right :-)
I would love to get a ticket every time i'm speeding, Imagine how convinient that would be for Uncle Sam! It's also very easy to compile a very extensive database of routing history of any car in US that has RFID for "terrorist tracking" BS!
anyway, is there such a thing as RFID-Driving yet ?
Obviously, some kind of system like this would be mandatory for automated transport, for example 100+mph autopilot lanes on the freeways, etc. RFID may not help here, but certainly rather a lot of the infrastructure mentioned in the article would be key. These systems would be very useful in building skylanes, too, for those oft-vaunted flying cars. ;)
Now the real fun will be in building an OSS solution for tracking all that information in real time while driving, rather than relying on your car's internal filters. Hrm...
Any generalization is a stupid one.
How about making it so getting a driver's license isn't a joke? Have initial testing and training be more vigorous and then have regular retesting be something more than "Can you read the second line from the top?". Also have people pass skills tests with every car they buy or drive regularly. Then make heavier fines for stupid driving activities such using using a cell phone, eating or keeping one hand behind the passenger headrest so you look like a big easy going manly man in your truck as you severe impair your driving ability.
Americans are the most reliant on automobiles and yet some of the shittiest drivers in the world. The worst thing is that like other shitty parts of our culture, it's being exported to other countries and havens for driving, such as Germany, are being infected by more and more American-like drivers who can't understand simple concepts like using the passing lane only for passing.
Create effective, efficient public transportation, so that people who don't want to drive or can't (physically) drive well are able to live their lives without depending on roadways. This has the added benefit of lessening traffic at peak travel times and reducing emissions in urban areas.
But that would be reasonable and intelligent.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
There are a 1001 statistics to prove either side - it doesn't make you right because you can use google quicker than those that respond.
I'm late for work, I jump in my underpowered Toyota Pyris hybrid and rush off for work. Manage to get it up to 66MPH and hear the speed alarm at just about the same moment I see the printer shoot off a slip of paper. A speeding ticket. These tickets have evolved to a sort of tax. The automated equipment can't take your license and can't stand up to cross examination in court so, they don't count as points on your driver's license so you are emailed a ticket you have to pay. In essence, a speed tax. I owe another $108.00. Third time this month!
A couple miles down the roadway, My GPS beeps and tells me that I should take an alternate route, there is congestion ahead. I'm sick of this because everyone else gets the same message and everyone is told to take the same alternate route. I'll ignore the advice today. Chances are, enough people will leave my route so that it will open up.
I use my voice activated phone to call the office and tell them I'll be a bit late, traffic is heavy.
The road ahead is jammed, it is not moving at all. I swerver to the right to make an exit but my radar screams! I look over my shoulder and see a car a hundred feet behind me. The alarm doesn't think that is enough room. I hear someone say "Go ahead" and I make my lane change. This intercar communication is pretty cool but it seems like almost every night you hear about a case of road-rage where someone got really pissed about what they heard. Maybe it isn't great for people with anger managment problems. I say thanks and catch my exit in a nick of time.
Golden Arches show up on my LCD display and I push the icon to place my drive through order. I'll swing in and pick up my coffee and muffin and my bank card will be debited. It is pretty cool how they know so much about you but I've heard that there are some slammers out there who routinely debit people as they drive by. It hasnt happened to me yet though.
I arrive at work and turn my car over to the valet. He can drive it slowly without the key within one mile of where I dropped it off. It is a nice service to use in this part of the city, things are pretty congested around here. I'm not worried, I can tell where my car is from my desktop, I can also monitor the wife and the kids!
I don't know how we did it back in the first part of the century! Only problem is that I gotta work 13 hours a day to pay for all this convenience!
Ironically, this tracking ability could be something that spurs city, state, and the federal government to municipalize wireless bandwidth. A series of virtually disposable RFID readers inside lightpoles wirelessly transmitting data to some data collection agency which sells data subsetting service could be a big reason to get your town to become wireless on the taxpayer's dime. Not only would this drastically reduce privacy for most citizens, the same Internet connection could be shared by people who have portable computers (checking e-mail, sports scores, watching movies in the park, etc.).
Digital Citizen
I was on a roadtrip recently that ran into an unexpected snow storm (blizzard if you will), and was absolutely amazed by the fact that there is NO easy way to get traffic or weather information.
Going through all the stations on the AM/FM dial didn't find anyone talking about the local weather/traffic. They're all too happy to tell you what GW Bush had for dinner, but god forbid they tell you any of the things you actually need to know right away.
All it would take is a series of radio stations along the major interstates, preferably all broadcasting on or near the same station on the dial. They could cover everything you need to know about the weather or traffic relative to where you are, provide other local news, etc. No need for tracking a vehicle, no need for new frequencies. Why doesn't anybody do this? I'm sure traveling drivers would make up a large listening block, and people living in the area would probably like to have some local news for once.
It was almost funny... Flipping through all the hundreds of channels on the TV found absolutely none of the information I wanted to know. It was pure luck that I happened to talk to somebody who happened to be watching the right channel at the right time to hear the 2 second blurb that the interstate was closed. Boy, thank goodness for the information age, right?
Okay, I'm done ranting now, it always bothers me when people want to introduce all sorts of new technology (like computers in schools) just to do basic things that all the current technologies are more than adequate for, and are just left unused for some reason....
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
No, not quite. Quoting from the article:
The DSRC system will be more like a peer-to-peer system in which either end of a link can initiate a transaction; traditional RFID systems operate in a master-slave arrangement. This peer-to-peer architecture will be necessary because many planned applications are vehicle-to-vehicle ones, not involving the roadside RFID readers at all.
I suppose it's possible that the tags won't be uniquely identifiable (maybe they'd just transmit IDs like "CAR" "TRUCK" and "EMERGENCY VEHICLE"), but somehow I doubt it.
Last week my wife and 2 year old were involved in a serious accident. They were hit from behind while driving 45 by a driver going 120.
Luckily they're both fine. But, as expected, this driver had no insurance. Since it seems most accidents are caused by the uninsured/underinsured, why not use this technology to keep the cars off the road?
You could put in rfid readers at the gas pumps, which would look up your VIN (embedded into your rfid, or hashed, or whatever) before allowing you to pump gas. The insurance industry would gladly fund the product. Your rates would go down when everyone is insured.
There are a few issues to work out, such as how you fill your lawnmower, but creative people could solve those with little effort.
If there is a legally set speed limit, why wouldn't you follow it?
Driving to work is a cooperative act. You're sharing the road with other drivers. It's not the Indy 500 -- so stop treating it that way.
Nine out of ten of the voices in my head told me to stay home today and clean my guns..
I get distracted enough by my wife talking to me.
Do you think I want to hear my car talking to me about my driving? Hell no!
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
The (new) Toyota Prius is just as quick as a V6 Camry, so I wouldn't call it underpowered...
Hmm. Considering how well the sensors in my car work now (hit the wrong bump and they go off), this idea sounds about as useful as a two-year-old in the back seat. I can just see it now.
Car: "You are going too fast for the upcoming hill."
Me: "I'm driving through Kansas..."
Car: "Hey, who's the car and who's the driver? I will tell you where we are."
Me: "Go stick your head in a pig."
No, that's just plain wrong.
What you do is you've got your two microphones, and a sound goes off. Suppose microphone 1 receives the sound 5 seconds before microphone 2 receives it. Now, the microphones aren't directional so you can't tell from which direction the sound came, all you know is that microphone 1 got the sound 5 seconds before microphone 2. Assuming that sound travels the same speed along both paths from the source to each microphone, you know that the source is 5 sound-seconds (pardon the horrible units) farther away from microphone 2 than from microphone 1.
Setting up a triangle between microphone 1, microphone 2, and the source, we find that one side of the triangle is a known distance (the distance between the two microphones) but the other two sides are unknown. If you work through the trigonometry you actually find that there are two possible triangles you can draw with these numbers, both the same size but mirror images of each other, mirrored about the side of the triangle between the two microphones.
If you introduce a third microphone then there's only one possible triangle you can draw, so long as the three microphones aren't lined up (those three microphones have to form a triangle themselves).
I love the idea of an alert telling me how fast I can take the next corner. I always want to beat it. We have signs in Dorset which say the 'safe' speed for the next corner. My best is 2.2 times the 'safe' speed. (30 mph sign, took corner at 66 mph in 3.7 litre Ford Sierra Xr 4x4. Stupid idea.
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
They quickly forget. Look at EasyPass. They sold this boondogle as a way for you to quickly pass through toll booths. Yet almost immediately after it was deployed, they used it to track your movements. Not just on the intended highway, but throughout the entire East Coast. EasyPass records have been used for other reasons besides just for travel. Many have been jailed because of these records. If you think this technology is benign, just go back and reread George Orwell's 1984.
Quit playing Monopoly with Bill.
Linux - of the people, by the people, and for the people.
I was taking a drive a couple of days ago to the visit my inlaws.
I couldn't help but think about the rising price of gas because of what is going on in the Middle East these days. Given the exponential power requirements required to break the speed limit because of wind resistance at higher speeds RFID seems like a great idea for "democratizing" the pollution of our atmosphere and greatly enhancing safety.
With "today's" "fly by wire" throttle systems it would be a mild task to have tranmitters (piggy-backed on cell phone system) to enforce speed limits, no matter how hard you press on the accelerator you can't go faster than 60 Mph (100 Kph) on a highway as an example. If you subvert the system you would be severely fined not only for speeding but also breaking the RFID speed/safety system. You wouldn't need to have traffic "cops" keeping us honest in the speed department because your automobie wouldn't allow you to break the speed law in the first place. You would use less fossil fuels and pollute less, increased safety notwithstanding. Additionally the authorities can "adjust" the speed limit to suit the conditions and time of day. I know that some of you are thinking "what if I want/need an extra burst of speed to avoid an accident?" Well you could always have a "demand speed" button on the steering wheel that would allow extra power for a period of 5 seconds to exceed the speed limit that could be re-triggered every 30-40 seconds or so, as an example. Of course "demand speed" would not be permitted in school zones (you shouldn't be speeding here anyways). When you think about it there are many variations on the theme that would greatly enhance safety due to speeding. Say goodbye to noisy/dangerous "cut-through" traffic in your neighbo(u)rhood.
There won't be much of a reason to build 500 Hp 200 Mph cars with such a system in place, not to mention SUV's that never leave asphalt for the muck they were designed for. Car makers will focus on energy conservation, comfort, and safety....again.
Unless they're somehow going to use RFID to beam you the conditions of every highway in the US, how else do you think they're going to know WHAT road conditions to transmit to you? Tracking is implicit in any scheme to send personalized data. To send location-specific data, your location has to be tracked.
Ignorance is the root of all evil.
Can someone explain to me why people who would normally wear searbelts on "long" trips won't for "short" trips? This has to be the dumbest excuse for not wearing a belt, I mean are people afraid that the 2 seconds needed to buckle up will make the trip take too long or what?? That is like going rock climbing and thinking, "well, I will only be climbing for half an hour, so I don't need my helmet". And speaking of helmets, why anyone would rike a bike without one is waaaay beyond me (after seeing the back of my brother's helmet after he crashed his bike in particular).
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
Instead of invading our privacy, again, how about:
1. Make the driving tests more difficult, meaning less bad drivers pass them.
2. Mandate annual vehicle inspections - many States / counties don't require them and they should. You don't need a brand-new vehicle to run the kids to school, but on the other hand, your twenty-year-old falling-apart-at-the-seams POS needs to be retired.
3. Put the money into hiring more cops to actually crack down on traffic violations, like running red lights, etc.
4. As a follow-on to #2, offer federally-assisted trade-in vouchers with a sliding rule - the older your car * the poorer you are = higher trade-in amount.
5. A Federal plan to repair the trade-ins from #4 that are worth fixing, if it gets another few good years from them.
6. Subsidise clean-fuel vehicles - electric, hybrid, etc. Get rid of gasoline/petrol gorram it!
Just my $0.02 writing as a 28 year old who learned to drive last year and passed the Florida driving test first time despite not doing very well.
Damien
(and then, as you know, the set of people just barely not interesting enough to be interested in is a curiously interesting phenomenon) and then when they came for the boring people, there was no one left to speak up.
Tweet, tweet.
Drive between points A and B too fast and get a speeding ticket. Now some hacker with a data cable moves point B closer to point A. Lots of people get annoying & false tickets. Ha ha. A speeding ticket for 1834 MPH would be a status symbol! Cool!
For those who's first reaction is to make fun of the paranoids....
Its just one more baby step to total monitoring... Its called slow encroachment..
If you don't believe me, who here can remember when the Social Security Number was to be *optional*.
Now you cant even get a bank account with it.. or a job.. or a license plate..
Get people used and accepting to being monitored in a small way, and slowly move the line on them..
Paranoia doesn't mean you are wrong... just perceptive.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I live in the UK, surveillance-camera central. it isn't a big deal. Yet, I'm a libertarian and no friend of big brother. So, why relax? Because the cameras aren't networked, and aren't systematic. They're just a bunch of shops and town councils hooking up cameras, seperately on their own initiative. Sure the cops can ask for a tape after the fact. And if they happened to be taping, chances are the shopkeeper would cooperate. But there's no "ministry of truth" watching. "Big brother might request a videotape" doesn't have quite that same bite ;-)
So then, two ways this car thing is evil. First, it's networked, or it could easily become so. Second, it's individually numbered. (The talk of replacing toll tickets implies this.) As a result this is far different from cameras. This is a system that could track your movements as individually as a biologist's radio collar. And it could do so either post-facto, assembling data points to plot your habits, or in realtime.
Not only do I not trust any government with that power, I think it's inherently corrupting. It would breed paranoia on both ends of the data pipe. The human mind, staring at data-scatter, can't help but derive patterns. Look at TV-snow, you'll see shapes. Look at people's movements, laid out for you as points on a map, you'll see conspiracies.
...as part of the agency's efforts to cut road fatalities in the U.S. by 50% within 10 years...
Road fatalities would drop by 50% in 10 minutes if people would stop driving like idiots.
Like George Carlin said, if you scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist.
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
anyone who's stupid enough to claim their privacy is being invaded and this is unconstitutional blah blah blah is an utter moron.
99% of the time you are driving on PUBLIC property out in plain view of anyone.. How is a chip in your car or license plate checking for safe speeds or conditions an invasion of that? EVERYONE thinks the rules don't apply to them and this privacy bullshit is just a facade
If these things ever were to check for violations of speed or erratic driving and you believe the speed limit is unreasonable, the problem is not with the tracking system. If you're breaking the law.. its breaking the law.. period.. go through the proper channels of trying to get a limit changed.. don't bitch about "privacy"
Everyone who's crying "unconstitutional" are the same people who are breaking the law and would be the least to benefit as the benefits greatly outweigh the disadvantages. Driving is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT.
The road between democracy and tyranny is paved with secrecy in the name of security.
That sounded really large until I read the article and found it was only 75 MHz wide. Just a raindrop in the ocean at those frequencies.
This does sound about as effective as the thing that spit out little paper tickets in Demolition Man. If you're not going to pay attention to the warnings, all it becomes is a nuisance that will have its speaker disconnected. Once this happens in enough cars, "they" will announce that tracking of these tags will be enabled to make sure that they're not tampered with.
I didn't quite follow all the jargon, but assuming DSRC would be accessibly passively like standard RFID, there's nothing to prevent one from plunking the chipset into, say, the license plate itself. I can't see the utility in having a system that will only assist those with the newest vehicles in identifying each other while ignoring the massive block of late-model vehicles that will always be on the road.
There's no reason that DSRC information devices couldn't just plug into the ol' cigarette lighter like a normal radar detector.
What was that 90s movie where the cop gets cryogenically frozen then brought back to life in the future? I remember a scene where there's devices on the wall that printed out a ticket every time he cursed. Wow, that's the America *I* want to live in...
I'll just build a device that emits enough RF energy at the right frequency to destroy RFID tags. Maybe I'll have one large device in my trunk running off the car's electrical system, that can put out enough wattage to destroy devices in a large radius, and a second hand-held device that I can carry on my person at all times.
Then, I will make it my business to destroy every RFID tag I come near. I'll also do my best to proliferate these devices across the planet (sell plans, sell devices on the black market, etc) so that others can do the same.
Can you imagine the damage just 20 or 30 people with the high-power devices hidden in their cars could do?
You're absolutely right, I see a lot of Californian drivers who put on mascara while talking to their wives. The closer to San Francisco you get, the worser it is!
Loverly.
Hook the rfid to the black box. Speeding? Automatic ticket. Run a red light? Automatic ticket.
Now rfid (implant) the people. Only rfid people a, b, c allowed to drive rfid f car. No more auto theft.
Ohhh, so cool. Now hook a blood alcohol detector to the people rfid. Had to much to drink? rfid shuts car down.
WooWooo! Now hook a taser to the people rfid. Cops want to stop you? Zap!
Welcome to the new world. Hope you enjoy it.
One way to drastically cut down on fatalities is to make the automakers put stronger roofs in their vehicles. Detroit News Special Report about 7,000 people killed and injured annually by roof cave-ins.
I hate when people try to justify socialism or communism.
I hate when people try to justify their bad habits behind the veil of Libertarian freedom.
How do you KNOW 100% that the seat belt laws work, or that helmut laws work? The ONLY thing that is known is that it raises revenues for police departments.
I don't know if the laws work. I do know that the seat belts work. My wife works at a children's hospital, and the difference between the quick and the dead is often determined by a single click -- or absense thereof.
If you wear your seat belt, you may still die in a crash... but it's less likely.
If you don't wear your seat belt, you may still live through a crash... but it's less likely.
And what sort of seat belt is installed in your vehicle that you have to unbuckle it to scratch your itch, anyway?
Full disclosure: I wasn't very good about wearing my seat belt when I lived at home with my parents, either. Then I totaled my mom's car, and the banged-up knees and humongous forehead bruise were enough to remind me not to forget again...
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
n/t
it is MY right to do whatever I want in this country - it is MY responsibility to make others safe and NOT infringe on the well being and laws of this country!
Sorry, but that's not how it goes. The only guranteed rights and freedoms that are granted to you in "this country" (by which I assume you mean the United States) are the ones granted by the constitution. Everything else can be (and is most cases IS) restricted by other people around you, which is represented by your government, ultimately on federal level. Being allowed to drive an automobile without seatbelt is not, by any stretch of imagination, covered by your constitution. Therefore, if using seatbelts is enforced via legislation, it is simply a restriction of your rights done by your peers via the proxy that is your government. It is not communism or socialism, but democracy, which I think (and I think you'll agree) is the best system of government from a multitude of bad choices.
Oh, and I am not a citizen of the United States.
I live in seattle, I cant speak for every were, but look 90% of drivers dont know what the hell there doing, technoligy is becoming more of a distraction than helping., furthermore people dont understand some very basic principals, stay in the right lane. If you need to go around someone do it move over get it done and get back in the RIGHT LANE, if you are doin 50 in a 60 in the left lane you cant but ask people to Go around you yes this presents a traffic hazerd fix it GET in the right lane let someone go by you if they whant to go faster than you atleast they wont have to be weaving though you.. I could go on for hours but it comes down to everyones driving not just the people that can handle driving faster then you.
I don't usually waste time on mod down/mod up posts, but the parent post is still rated "+5 Informative" after about 8 people have pointed out that it is factually false. The system can only be used for EasyPass type tolls is if the car broadcats a unique ID code.
Or get rid of CAFE.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy.
In order to meet these goals set by the Feds, car manufacturers, among other things, have to cut mass. That means, in an accident, the proportion of the crash absorbed by you, compared to your vehicle, increases. That's admittedly a simplistic way to look at it, but look here for more information.
One or two of your points is worth it's weight, the rest is statist, the government-is-the-new-god bullshit. See the other replies, I won't bother to repeat them.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Of course I feel safer, ever since they've started to prevent cell phone use in cars, I feel safer. When they started putting limiters on peoples cars, I felt safer. Because of people like you assuming that this is an infringement on your "right to drive" the world is an unsafe place on the road.
the rest is my post to the topic
As ardent as some of you seem about preventing privacy infringements, these worries are insanely redundant. The issues have been addressed before, with the advent of recording technology, the internet, and even homeland security...the wackos have come out and gone against every one of our technology advancements, seemingly with little to back them other than "privacy" or what they claim to be their freedoms.
I was watching a documentry on Emma Goldman recently before it's airing on the PBS. To outline one of the amazing parts of her life, she went from arguing against the country (in everything it did), to touting every form of differing government (no matter what it did), to plotting to bomb, kill, and generally destroy people and presidents in this country (no matter what they did). When she was finally deported to the USSR as an anarchist she was forced to live in "Mother Russia" in the time before the second world war, she wrote in letters to friends how much she missed America, claiming that she was wrong, short sighted and young. The only thing I could say in response was "next time don't do it". I couldn't help but say that everytime I saw a killer on TV being arrained, or a hacker being put behind bars (albeit for too long a sentence)....and every time it makes more sense...try it.
Arguing against technological advance using the prop of individual rights is short sighted. The best argument against this implimentation would be the moral choices that humans make should override the oversight of these technological advances. That seems to be at the base of every argument against it;
"but I was only speeding officer because my wife's giving birth."
"but I had to drive erratically to avoid the flaming meteor"
"your kidding right? I was being chased by government agents"
Sorry but, again, these arguments are short sighted and affected by the situations that these people are involved in. These situations show that people are making poor choices, that will place others in danger, placing all their personal problems at the forefront of their worries.
I'm all for extended rights, and my individual freedoms, i'm a conservative for crying out loud, sooner or later I might have the urge to carry a gun around (although not likely i'm scared to death of them). However i'm enclined to say sorry but "next time don't do it" when someone gets hauled off to jail because they commited a crime, fled town, and forgot their car had a tracking device in it.
"Yeah, yeah; I may need a tinfoil hat. Ask yourself, though, do you feel safer?"
I do feel safter but you don't need a tinfoil hat, you need an RFID tag in your car so i can pull off the road when your crazy ass comes rolling down it.
well i thought it was funny.
They can have my 1971 Porsche 911 when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
45MPH corner ahead, my hairy ass! Hell, I could make that corner at 65MPH even if it was covered with ice _and_ a dozen 4 year olds chasing balls into the street.
Peter
Downsize DC Today!
# Compulsory seat-belt use (works in my area)
How does this 'work?' If I pull out of my driveway and don't buckle up ( breaking the law ) and get in a crash that kills me, how did the law protect me. Maybe you meant Automatic seatbelts that can not be altered.
# Mandatory helmet laws for motorcyclists (agan, works in my area)
So at 65 MPH there is a magic helmet that keeps a cyclists head from sliting open? And even if it were, the head is not the only vulernable body part.
# Zero tolerance for liquored-up drivers
Again, how does this work? It's already illegal to drink and drive. I think that you are saying that the majority of the DUI related crashes are caused by repeat offenders. So we eliminate all of those, there are still the people who have never been arrested.
# Restricted permits for new drivers (no rush hour, no driving between sunset and sun-up, etc).
No rush hour????? I am assuming when you say new driver you mean the 16-18 year olds. Is the school time rush hour the same as the work rush hour? It's not where I live. My state already implements this. But breaking the law is pretty easy.
# Governors on all engines so that it's not possible to exceed the speed limit
Now you're getting crazy. Speed limits do change you know. They are not all 65 or 55 or whatever. It's more dangerous to be going 45 in a 20 zone than it is to be going 75 in a 65 zone, so unless you have a really smart governor, this won't work.
# Increased penalties for racing, reckless driving, etc.
Already here in my state. Strangely enough, people still do it.
# Removal of so-called "restricted permits" for people who have accumulated too many demerits.
I'm not sure what state you live in but do they HAVE any driving rules at all? After so many points one loses their license in my state, restricted or not.
# Mandatory retesting for anyone who has lost their license because of moving violations or booze.
See previous answer.
# Get rid of "road tanks" (SUVs) that make people think they're invulnerable.
OR make it illegal to own a small car. That all the road tanks will just crash into each other.
For example, I can envision the following scenerio: You're driving down the street, just minding your own business, when all of a sudden, a message window appears on the display to warn you that a car is about to hit you. Of course, since the display is mounted behind the driver, visible only to the back seat, you can't see the message. But in typical Windows style, the vehicle's controls become completely unresponsive until you click 'ok' in that window. (For convenience, though, you can click on 'don't show this message again' or something like that.)
Hi,
There are a lot of misunderstandings expressed here. I just want to quickly address two top ones.
1. DSRC is not RFID. It is in fact a slightly modified form of IEEE 802.11a technology, adjusted for mobile usages at 5.9GHz.
2. Privacy is not gone. Using DSRC for safety poses interesting challenges for security in general, and privacy concern is one of them. They are being addressed. For example, there is general agreement that communication stack should not in itself disclose the identity of the car (and in turn, driver). That means, for one thing, no fixed MAC address as usual in 802.11.
So, it seems to me that it would be a simple matter to plug the chips into the stickers we all have to apply to our plates when renewal time comes. Then, make the information available to people who are willing to pay for it, like that fancy traffic advisory system in Seattle (TrafficGauge.com and PDATraffic.com
Even better would be a way to fuse accurrate, timely road condition information with GPS navigation to spread traffic out onto all roadways, and allow the traffic grid system to intelligently monitor and adapt to traffic. Computerised road signage would help get the word out to people without the means for fancy gadgets.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
[tinny voice] - Warning! You are about to experience a rollover!
[tinny voice] - Told you so.
/yeah, I can see how that would be useful
yes, we have no bananas
Speak for yourself. I, for one, will gladly buy a device issuing alerts about rollovers. I usually barely notice when I roll over, unless I'm sober. Also, the way I usually "negotiate an upcoming curve" is hardly safe. I think I absolutely need some device to do it for me.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
No, tracking is not implicit because it's not personalized data. It's generalized data about the conditions on the road ahead.
Because it's short range. A sign on the side of the highway is constantly broadcasting the current condition of the road ahead. A reciever in your car, as you pass this sign, receives the signal, and interperts it as "Traffic moving slowly past next transfer" or "Accident ahead in center lane, reduce speed."
They don't have to know who "YOU" are, nor do they even need to know if there's anyone on the road. The sign just keeps spitting out the current road condition ahead, and anyone with a reciever that passes it, get's told what the conditions are up ahead.
They already do this in Ontario with LED signs over the major highways. Sensors imbedded in the roadbeds measure traffic speed and density, and automatically update the signs with the road conditions.
Why would making driving tests more difficult cross racial boundaries? If someone is stupid it doesn't matter if they were born purple with twenty toes. Ditto if they can't drive straight.
It would also be useful if people had to attend classes for fender benders. My brother-in-law did after he had three - he should have after the first one.
Damien
AND
"...there's no such thing as a "right" to drive. It's a privilege."
I hate when people try to justify socialism or communism
actually its more like governateturism