Slashdot Mirror
India Starts All-Electronic National Elections
fantomas writes "Forget the problems of e-voting in a state in some middling sized western country as recently reported by Slashdot. The world's largest democracy is about to go to the polling stations and vote for a new government using all-electronic voting systems. Will it work? Will the USA follow if all goes to plan? Can any readers from India comment on how it seems to be going?"
How would they know if they have screwed up votes? The ballots read like the Python Spam Skit:
Place your vote:
Egg and Singh
Egg Bacon and Singh
Egg Bacon Sausage and Singh
Singh Bacon Sausage and Singh
Singh Egg Singh Singh Bacon and Singh
Singh Sausage Singh Singh Bacon Singh Tomato and Singh
Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and Singh
Just a joke, lads. In India "Singh" is like "Smith" in the West.
Sanjay Goatse
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
"helicopters, bullock carts and elephants were all used to ferry the machines to the remotest corners of India."
An elephant carrying a voting machine. Even in my wildest dreams I never would have thought of that.
Evolution or ID?
...lets hope they don't out source their election to a certain American company.
I just hope nothing goes wrong and they need to call tech support because it's probably been outsourced to India and they'll have a hard time understanding the thick accents. Oh wait...
we could just outsource our voting :-T
Get paid to code OSS
Of course, all kinds of jokes come to mind. Did they outsource it? Blah Blah Blah.
But, really, if they are able to make this work, perhaps some of the outsourcing the US is making to Inida can be justified with their ability to, at least, beat us on the e-voting front.
That is still a big if. It's funny we are worried about fraud on our e-voting machines. They are worried about fights. Maybe if we started having fist fights at the booths all our e-voting woes will dematerialize.
India has just announced that they will be outsourcing all government officials and associated elections to the United States.
An unamed individual was quoted saying, "This is a very positive move for India. The savings will be good for our country because the US has the most skilled politicians that can be bought for the lowest price."
Back to you Kent.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
Some "third-world" countries have difficulty keeping track of their population, in other words, some people simply are not registered on any lists. For those countries, using biometrics for voting actually makes sense, as it allows for "unregistered" people but disallows them from voting twice. In fact, it's a bit of a paradox - biometrics could actually be the answer for those people who don't like the government keeping records on them.
"Still, most people around here envy the indians."
Envy Indians??? Are you nuts. There are over 1 billion of them. 4 times as many people as in the US. Can you imagine the traffic and congestion. The lack of privacy.
Evolution or ID?
Will it work?
Why so much scepticism? The electronic voting machines are being used in India from quite some time now. But this is the first time that the whole of the general election will be paperless. So it is just the matter of scale (1 million voting machines), which is of interest.
In many fields the 'rich west' will eventually be overrun by the third world.
Why ? Because they have absolutely nothing holding them back, whereas we have a substantial investment in our current infrastructure.
That makes us conservative - resistant to change - even if that change is for the better.
Look at the entrenchement of MS for example. They will continue to receive cash that could have been spend better for a long long time to come.
Meanwhile the rest of the world - the poor part that is - is absolutely free to adapt linux, not having a vested interest in 3rd party closed source they will outstrip the west in knowledge about these systems in a very few years.
Unless of course we decide to 'move first' again.
MP3 Search Engine
India's system is a simple box that counts. The system in the U.S. is typically more like an automated teller machine (ATM) with a computer behind it.
The Mercuri method of electronic voting allows the voter to inspect a paper printout of the cast ballot before it lands in the box for use only in the event of a recount. Brazil (and other places) use it. I would like to see it in use wherever direct-recording electronic (DRE) voting is used.
The big quirk in the United States is the decentrallized nature of the voting systems - every county (of which there are about 3400) selects its own voting machines, ballots, and so forth.
I hate call waitin`~+~~~
NO CARRIER
Now India has an interesting democracy - a 22-party coalition (which is expected to win this election as well) in control of the government. That's quite a refreshing change from the point of view of someone in an (effectively) one-party state like South Africa (with the African National Congress getting a controlling 69% in the recent election). I'm not sure which would be better, 2 strong parties, like in the US, or dozens of small parties forming coalitions, like in India. I would guess that the coalitions would allow for more fluidity in politics than 2 (or a few) strong parties.
Sure it will work, they don't have a state called Florida!
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
raj
Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
I guess this is better than the old system. A hand count. I can just see them saying "Ok, everyone just keep your arm raised a little longer"
Ah, progress
Evolution or ID?
Just voted in the morning. The Electronic Voting machines (EVMs) have been around in India since 5 years or so, but this is the first one in which they are used throughout India.
The voting process is something like this,
U go to the poll booth assigned, someone finds U in the printed list of voters for the booth, the candidates can have their agents sitting inside, who also verify that my name exists.
The identification is via a electoral card or some defined photo-ids
Next U get a ink mark on the index finger, whcih is supposed to be difficult to erase ( techniques to erase them are "well-known":-))
After that U get a slip which is taken by next official who has to press a button to make the EVM operable. So there is a paper trail of who has voted.
The EVM (as shown in the BBC article is a flat device with the names, symbol of the party and a LED and a button) When the official has given the go ahead, there is a green light on top; one has to press the button against the candidate, a red LED against the candidate glows and U are done.
The procedure is quite simple and is lot better than the ballot paper stuffing before.
The counting is done on a scheduled date, wherein all these EVMs are kept in a specified place and counting happens with the candidates' representatives around.
Mohammad Afzal, the first voter at the polling station in the Kashmiri village of Chainabal, was not put off by the threats from separatist militants.
"I came to vote because wasting one's ballot in a democracy is a sin," he told the BBC.
Heh, if this is true, it seems that with modern politics being what they are, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't!
Let's see, it's a choice between
1) Wasting your ballot by not voting
and
2) Wasting your ballot by voting for Yet Another Sleazy Politician Drone
Man, I hope they at least have good beer in Hell ...
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
Neither is anyone else, but hey, we all got used to it. Then we had to start getting used to having our fates decided by foreign judges, which was even worse...
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Some pictures:
http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/20ele cimg8.htm
The elephant carrier news:
http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/20/stories/2004042001 451300.htm
Some candidates:
http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/16bod y1.htm
This is third time the EVMs have been used but first time for a national elections.
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
The main issue is that the software used is closed-source, and it is closed even to the political parties involved in the election.
But now there's some pressure to open-source the code, mostly by the left-winged parties (PDT, PC do B, PSTU, PT and smaller ones). And there is a good chance that it may happen, because our current governament is supporting, and recommending, opensource software.
With some work, in the future Brazil may be the fist country to use full electronic elections, with full open-souce software!
I don't remember where i read this: The e-voting machines being used in India aren't networked. At the end of the day, the poll workers take the machines to the main district office and plug them into a network. The software on the machines itself isn't reprogrammable.
" Corruption and cronie-ism is rampant in Indian politics."
So, they really are trying to be just like the US
Evolution or ID?
For those who don't want to RTFA about the election itself , this BBC link within the story is about the voting machines themselves.
Brazil's last general elections were all electronic. No big news there. There is a single Brazilian system, where a different company designs each module. Party-appointed technical representatives can audit the whole system.
India and Brazil have other things in common: illiteracy and poverty. Most of the users of the electronic ballots in Brazil cannot understand what they read on the screen. Electoral candidates in small towns "teach" people to vote on them, by making them memorize the key sequences.
I just wonder if these countries couldn't be spending time, money, and minds on more relevant issues.
This guy faced the threat of actual violence at the polls. He turned up to vote nonetheless. It's great to see that some people still believe in democracy.
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world in the homelands of democracy, the turnout at elections is what exactly, these days? And the danger we face on our way to the polls is... the prospect of injury caused by getting our fat arses off the sofa once every five years?
Sometimes I think we deserve the George and Tony show, I really do.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
raj
Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
It's a good move because the size of our population. I heard from a government employee who worked in the state elections that Ballot stuffing is common. One of the leading parties is actually paying election workers to 'press the button' for them on the machines. This was not so convenient before. This happened in the state elections for sure, and will probably happen in the nationals too. The market for illegally made 'homebrew' weapons (costing as less as $30) is flourishing as the election arrives. Efforts have been made for security of election booths, but it's doubtful how security will fare against bribes. The routine election-season killings have already started. On the whole, introducing e-voting in India is like throwing water in a puddle of mud - you can move faster in it, but it makes you much dirteir all the same.
Actually there is more privacy in India. Sort of 'anonymity' due to 'multiplicity'. Been there, felt that.
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
Their knowledge/usage of computers is limited, and I would put them in the same space as the average Joe/Jane American as far as computer/security knowledge is concerned.
I tried explaining that just a fancy GUI and interface doesn't make for a better voting process, and that the programs/algorithms need to be checked for correctness and security. I don't think the importance of it seeped through - and they still gushed about the fast/easy and hi-tech voting process.
That's about it...I guess the good part is that the machines are mostly firm/hardware and not the beefed up (down?) Windows machines like Diebold's ATM machines in the US. The machines are made by a company called Bharat Electronics. Unfortunately it looks like their server is ASP/IIS based.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
In another referandum on the ballot, it has been determined that all Indian Motion Pictures will now require a minimum of 3* scenes worth of traditional indian dancing escpecially when it makes no sense in the context of the rest of the movie.
*This is an increase from the 2 currently required by law.
We have 100% e-vote for several years already and, we are a quite big country with very remote areas. Probably it's not as big operation as in India but quite big as well. ;) ) that connects directly with the central servers that count the votes.
Another very interesting feature we have here is the possibility to follow results in real time via web or a java program (which I run on my linux box
As for the security, the source of the system is not generaly open but any representative of any party can ask for review, random audits are made in the ballots and a part of them print the vote for the voter.
Scientia est Potentia
Last Year they gave all the registered voters photo identity cards , using Biometrics even our thumbimpression is in their system,
Hold the "illitracy" jokes(i am typing this arent i)
then they sent a slip telling us where we have to go to cast out vote , even the booth no.
they had 2 EVMs 1 4 parliamentary election and another for local assembly elections,
they ofcourse put the customary indelible ink on the left index finger. probably becoz some people feel nostalgic of the "gud 'ol days"
when u cud raid a polling booth and take away the ballot boxes
and then cry foul play!!!
hav phun
This is how it worked for me today:
1. You need a voter id card. If you don't have that, any govt. id is supposed to work.
2. They check your name twice against two hardcopies of the voter lists. In addition, the larger parties have their own guys hanging around with their own copies of the voter lists to make sure there's no mischief.
3. You sign or fingerprint against your name in a ledger.
4. Next you get a dab of indelible ink on your left index finger.
5. Finally, they enable the EVM by pressing a master key. A green light comes on on the box.
6. You get to vote. The green light goes off, and the button you hit goes red. After a delay of about 5 seconds, it beeps and goes off.
What could be easier?
Surely even americans might be able to follow the above.
Why don't you guys outsource your next election to the Indian Election Commission and you won't get that miserable failure as a president for the second time?
Corruption and cronyism, with a few exceptions, are endemic everywhere politicians are found. Whilst we enjoy depicting countires with lower GDP then our own as more corrupt it is not exactly accurate. India is a well entrenched democracy and little more likely to have a disputed election then the USA and UK.
Can they at least outsource the tallying of the results here to the US?
Our Supreme Court is very good at helping people count since most folks can't do it themselves.
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
(Whether good or bad, such times would be anything but dull.)
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
Interestingly even on an election topic people talk about outsorcing. Interesting isn't it? Well matter of fact is I have voted on Electronic voting machines on two elections already and this was at least 4 years ago. It is interesting that technologically advanced country like US cannot go to EVMs ... I would say its pretty straight forward as pushing a button to turn on or off your light. It's very simple, easy and "not confusing".
... 'mek2600' has just been elected the newest leader of India! In a statement to the press mek2600, and English-speaking American said, "The 2600 in my name has nothing to do with hacking, hackers, or anything like that. I won this election in Indiana fair and square. What? I won in India? Not Indiana? Damn typos."
nobody
Just because you're paranoid does not mean that the world is not full of assholes.
Did they use the Diebold machines?
What does the US Constitution say about GW Bush being "elected" President in two countries at the same time?
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
in case some one pokes a joke on parent's subject line, I was actually trying to get <> in between India and outsourcing, but hit submit instead of preview!
raj
Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
Choose your candidate ...
z) Criminal Z
a) Criminal A b) Criminal B c) Criminal C
In the US u are brain washed by TV channels.(parties pay the channels) In India u are bribed.(Sarees, Lungi, cash, booze etc..)
The big spender is the winner. Darwin's law clearly states that winner is always the fittest(Money).
Leave the election matters to the professional criminals. Everyone is making their money, we are making ours, be happy.
No need to envy Indians, Everything is round in the universe. What ever goes down has to come up and what ever goes up has to come down. Change is the only truth. Check the history, look at mongols then, US was a no man's land then, now look at US and mongols(Afghanistan/Iran).
Is your system set up to allow votes for people not listed i.e. write-ins or do you have to select 'only' from the list provided?
If you have to select from the list, can you withhold your vote on parts of the ballot because you don't like any of the candidates or does that invalidate the entire ballot?
'And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo Every day you meet quite a few...'
Being a linux geek, I'm all for new technologies being used to make out lives easier, but there are too many special interests and flaws in the current method of E-Voting. The vast majority of E-Voting companies are really just one company that supports a biased outcome to the elections. Not to mention the fact that most of the E-Voting-Machines run M$. The state of E-Voting in america is really bad...
From http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm: If people are voting on machines, they are not voting at all. In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court said that, A "legal vote," as determined by the Supreme Court, is "one in which there is a 'clear indication of the intent of the voter.'" If a machine is involved in the voting process, the voter has been relegated to making inputs and hoping that the machines' output is the same. That output can only be 'circumstantial' evidence of what the voter intended. It is the voters' right to create 'real' evidence of their own intention.
peace
-- Slackware Geek
Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. - Robert Heinlein
I am from and in India. AFAIK, we have not had any problems with these electronic voting machines. They have been in use for quite some time now, they were never used in all constituencies, however.
:). The Election Comission would be forced to use paper ballots. These goons resort to capturing polling booths and electronic voting machines make their task tough.
:) :)
The only potential problem with them that I have come across in local media reports is that of some political goons registering dozens of dummy candidates... their aim being to have more candidates in a constituency than the number of buttons on the machines
Now I guess these enterprising political goons will have to enlist hackers
I am sure if there's an american hacker out there upto the task, he/she can reverse the outsourcing thing
Dont make a better sig, you insensitive clod!
The electronic machines were last used in elections to four different state goverments in december of 2003. Taking advantage of the fact that many voters in remote areas were illiterate and were using the electronic machines for the first time, the election volunteers instructed them to vote for a particular party only, explaining that, that is the only button that works on the machine.
Now the interesting fact is that most of these volunteers were government employees and they were pissed off at the outgoing government for withholding their bonuses and they had a score to settle with them.
So they instructed the poor illterate voters to vote for the rival party!
I'm quite sure that there would be many such intances in this election of politicians exploting people's ignorance and getting them to vote for some party for which they might not have wanted to vote.
The Electronic voting machines (EVM) in use are not connected to the central server. They just store the count of votes on some sort memory chip that the Election office has to get to a counting station to get the votes counted.
Besides it will take some skills to fool the EMV, muscle power won't play its traditional role. These device is made my Electronic Corporation of India Ltd. And they say the device is pretty secured.
Its been use for 10 years now but never on this large scale.
Ya suuuuure they are....
They may call it that but reality isn't always what its labeled as..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
We are in way off topic land but...
America has been more than happy to assits in the overthorwing of democracies when it suits them, like they elect a socailist government (Chillie), or they are planning to nationalise the oil reserves (Iran).
It even happliy has allies like the brutal regimes in Uzbekistan because it suits their purpose.
Now all countries act like this, in their own national interests. However, you can't claim any sort of moral high ground for American foreign policy, sure it has removed some brutal dictators, but has been happy to help install and work with others.
Backing brutal and unpopular regimes abroad may be way a lot of the rest of the world does not see America as some guardian of freedom.
More likely to be elected as US president.. Oh Wait!
raj
Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
It is common knowledge among Indians that corruption is rampant within the Indian government. I would be amazed if this is pulled off without serious problems.
With this system, the ruling coalition often has a wafer-thin majority which means even an otherwise insignificant party with a small number of seats in parliament can exert and awfully strong influence on the government. The Prime Minister can be toppled pretty much anytime by losing a confidence vote. If the oppisition isnt't strong enough to form a majority coalition after that the only alternative is to dissolve parliament and hold general elections again.
Although this government has lived out its full 5 year term*, there was a period before that when there were 3 general elections in a 5 year period. In addition to the obvious fiscal cost of polling 600 million people, this level of instability deters investors because they don't know when a new government will come in and change policy.
That said, things seem to be maturing to a degree with parties that have caused governments to fall over minor issues suffering heavy losses in subsequent elections, so maybe we will see some happy middle ground where no party has a free hand, but the government mostly lives out its full term.
* Actually they did decide to hold elections a little earlier than otherwise scheduled for political reasons
Don't care about an issue? Don't vote. Care passionately? Vote! We'll have an electorate that is much more knowledgeable. We'll eliminate the graft and corruption that is inevitable when big money pays for a campaign to elect someone who is supposed to represent the electorate. Cut out the middle man and vote on the issues directly. And no more pork filled bills with hundreds of items snuck in there, allowing politicians to claim they voted for something very noble and patriotic, when they actually voted themselves a raise and everyone traded votes for their favorite pork barrel projects.
>> My ultraviolent Linux switch video.
For the last national election, 2002 Voting Age Population Study using public data (derived from Census data, but not done by the US census dept)
2000 US census is 281 million people, Voting-Elligible population estimate of 195 million, puts it at ~ 70%. From total votes, the turnout was 56% of VEP (in a highly contested election with highest turnout in recent years), so the vote represented 39% of the US population.
Which is about right, when you think of it, records show only 40% of the US population supported independence from britain in 1776 (10% against and 50% neutral). But that's how it is in republics; freedom to vote also means freedom to withold your vote... would you rather be fined for not voting like you can in europe?
Or they are outsourcing it to the Philippines ;-)
oops! got the numbers wrong.
the EVM was first used in Kerala Legislative Assembly election held in May, 1982 and first use in a national election was in 1999 election. the story is here
a presentation small about how EMVs work is here
Party-appointed technical representatives can audit the whole system. false. The OS was not audited (nor the VirtuOS version 1 electronic ballot box nor the WindowsCE version 2). Other parts of the system were not audited, either.
If there is some flaw in the diskette driver or in the flash memory driver, for example, it could be exploited; it does not seem practical to me, altough, because of the distributed responsabilities in our electoral process (I probably mentioned it before, here or in k5, but I can't find it now). The case is that a Judge is in charge of the machines for each 10k-100k voters (each machine is used in the range of 600-10000 votes).
Many tests are conducted in the machines, by the electoral judges and party officials.
Besides, for the electronic ballots in a machine to be considered valid (-- is this a valid English construct? --) the machine must be reset, and a special ballot report called the "zerésima" (zeroth) has to be taken from it just before the first vote is entered.
India and Brazil have other things in common: illiteracy and poverty. Most of the users of the electronic ballots in Brazil cannot understand what they read on the screen. Electoral candidates in small towns "teach" people to vote on them, by making them memorize the key sequences. false. The photograph of the person you're voting shows up in the screen. The sequence of keys is numeric, and even with our high illiteracy rate, people normally can read numbers. Besides, voting is not mandatory to illiterate people and to people over 65 (as it is for the others [except teens in 16-18 range]), which are the people who have more difficulty with the machines.
I just wonder if these countries couldn't be spending time, money, and minds on more relevant issues. The items above are of fact; this is one of my personal opinion: there is no issue more important than democracy. Here in Brasil, the machines make for a relatively safe (*) electoral process, and smooth to boot (last presidential election took less than 48 hours to count 100M+ votes).
(*) I had the opinion that it was safer than the paper-based process -- that has a lot of security issues, too; thanks to Bruce Schneier, I am less certain now. in here, he shows how few percent of the votes should be swinged to reverse the result of an election. I am still curious how would this apply to our electoral system (**)
(**) Here, for presidential elections, the elections are "direct", "majoritary", in "two rounds" (?! don't know if those are the correct English terms) Meaning: the candidates are voted; if one of them makes >50% of the valid votes, it's the next president; else, new elections 15 days from now with only the two most voted candidates (one of them will make >50% of the valid votes). For parlament elections, the system is of "parties lists", meaning you can vote for a candidate or for a party; the quota of the party in the house is separated and filled with the most voted candidates in that party.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Just when you thought his political career was over...
And did US used that enormous experience to aid the implementation of a e-voting there? No...
So what would make anywone think they would follow Indias foot steps?
I dont think so.
It's amazing - there is (and rightly so) a huge desire to say to Tony Blair "NO! Stop playing with Mr Bush and get back to running Britain. Which you did pretty well the last seven or eight years."
And I don't see anyone turning back to the Tories (especially, I might add, with the loathsome Howard as leader). So I suspect the Lib Dems are going to do rather well in the May lcoal elections...
--- My dad's political betting
I'm in Bangalore on a business trip. Funny you mention "biometrics"; my Indian supervisor demonstrated their actual system to me, referring to it as the same. But I took it as irony...
What they do is take your right index finger, and mark around the fingernail with permanent marker -- so it gets real deep in the crease between skin and nail. Once you're marked, you can't vote again. Simple.
Polls don't need no stinkin computers, not even in the current tech capital of the world.
Circumvention of this scheme is not a huge issue in a place where election candidates routinely hold press conferences and hand the reporters envelopes filled with a watch and a Rs100 bill.
If you're not wasted, the day is.
if individual votes are counted, but then farted out through the electorial college. the system was good, when it was difficult to tally the vote of all the individuals, but it has no place today.
|plastic....or gasoline?|
dude...I'll be damned if anyone in India outside the state of West Bengal has even heard of communism :P :)
I squeezed in just before the polls closed at 5:00 PM in Bangalore. I was a little rushed because all the security people kept telling me to hurry up so that they could go home. However the election in my constituency was very peaceful, unlike some other areas.
Interestingly Indian media is not as vocal about the relatively small incidents of violence when compared to the international media.
The electronic voting machines felt a little awkward. There was no feedback to tell me that I had actually voted for the right person, and no mechanism that I could tell to correct myself had I pressed the wrong button. In fact one of the instructions for voters that came out in the Times of India today mentioned that we should make sure the election commission employees monitoring the election didn't "accidentally" press one of our buttons for us.
I would have liked the machine to somehow tell me (either through a display or by printing a little paper receipt) that I had voted for the right person.
Also, one of the women election commission workers was looking down on my machine as I proceeded to push my button. I had to give her a really ugly look, "Do you mind?". She shrugged and went and sat down on her chair. There were representatives from all the political parties contesting for the seat from my constituency.
What's probably not as common in the West is that there were about 10 people contesting from my constituency alone. One each from the major national parties (BJP/NDA, Congress), a couple from the major state parties and a few independents. I think the choice in the West is usually never more than 3 or 4.
After voting each voter is marked with a small drop of ink between the nail and the skin on the forefinger of the left hand. Not sure what they do if you are handicapped.
A state-wide holiday was declared to encourage people to vote. However in some areas it was just too hot in north of the state so the turnout was quite poor (40%-ish) whereas in my state on average I think it is around 60%. I'm sure there were many other factors that affected the voter turnout.
The national parties are promising between 10-12% economic growth, which has probably never been achieved in India's post-independence history. Let's see how things pan out, although it appears the ruling BJP-led alliance will dominate. The question is by how much.
All in all, it still felt good to cast a vote, although numerically the bigger the democracy the smaller the net value of each vote.
Will it work?
Oh, yes.
The officials responsible for the decision to use electronic voting will herald its use as part of India's grand entry into the technology revolution.
Companies providing the equipment will highlight its features, talking about security and speed with which results are available.
Winners of the elections will be too elated to spend time dwelling on the nuts and bolts of the technology used to bring them to power.
Losers of the elections will call into question any irregularities as well as the inherent problems with the electronic voting machines that motivated some of the world's best computer scientists to disapprove of electronic voting.
More complaining will occur for closer elections. Media coverage of the complaining will vary depending on how close the elections are.
In the end we'll all accept the inevitable results:
[Damn! Applied the wrong firmware again!]
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Riiiight. Exactly the compassionate, conservative response one would expect.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
Brasil has deprecated the (3% of the total machines in the testing phase, AFAIR) paper-printout machines. The alleged reason is the extra expenditure without any aditional security. ;-)
I disagree, but I can see the rationale: If you can enter a fake result in the vote accounting system, you can also produce a boxfull of fake paper ballots.
Besides, the "will recount/ nah, will take too much time/ oops, where are the ballots?" fiasco in the US pretty much proved that in a big-nation-wide election, it's far more important to get it counted right in the first place.
It's not like there is a better option in the ballot... just hopefully less horrendous ones
Electronic voting systems are all very good. They are simple enough to use - push the button with your favorite party symbol - that people didn't seem to have a problem even though we have a lot of uneducated folk.
However, where the electronic voting was nice, the human factor wasn't. You still have to fill out a ton of forms to get your name on the lists. You need to produce all kind of proof of ID, age and address. You need to go to the office several times to make sure your name gets on the voting list and after all that, sometimes, it just isn't.
Why? because some politicians feel that if they wipe out an entire area that may be hostile to their party from the polling lists, it would be better for them. A lot of my neighbours came away really frustrated and dissappointed because their names were not there even though they had gone through the entire procedure.
So basically, what I'm saying is, e-voting and all is very nice, but given a choice, I'd rather color a circle with a pencil if that's what it takes to be sure that my name will be on the list next time around.
I mean, after all, why do we propose e-voting? To streamline the process right? From experience, I feel that the machines are a very small part of the process and that they should be considered onlt AFTER other issues have been ironed out.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Many constituencies in India were already on EVMs and it was successful. This time all are on EVM. Thats the difference. And of course there is a huge advantage of results coming sooner
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
To believe that his vote counts.
Of course, his democratic system may actually be set up so that his vote does really count.
The British system on the other hand is set up so that a minority party like the New Labour party can take significantly less than half the votes (42%) yet still take power with a large enough majority in parliament (63%) that they can force through just about any legislation they feel like.
So for the majority of voters in Britain, their vote really doesn't count.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
"why is the leader of a nominally socialist party tied into this destructive alliance..."
If he truly was socialist, he would not deserve office.
I'm always amused at how the cold warm polarised the world. I sat on a train yesterday and listerned to a couple of americans talking to their son. The father accused the son of being almost 'socialistic'. I gathered from the tone that this was ment to be an insult and the son quickly distanced himself from this position. I don't have any particular feelings for support of a socialist party, but having seen socialist parties come and go with out the world falling down, I find that knee jerk fear of the word quite odd.
I hope Diebold rememberd to localize the voting software on those machines since Dubya seems to be having a hard enough time running this country.
See subject.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
In the Netherlands, there are currently 5 sizable parties with a good likelyhood of being part of the government. They are Social-democrats, Christian center, Reactionists, Liberal and Conservative. I'll vote conservative, but they might (and have in the past) make a coalition with any of the other parties. If they team up with the liberals, they will compromise on government reform. If they team up with the Socialists, they will compromise on wage levelling and higher tax for rich gits. You get the idea... So, what exactly am I voting for?
Aside from the uncertainty of the resulting policies, a coalition will always have to compromise on their differing principles and choose a middle ground, which can make for a very dull and rudderless government. At least a single party in power can take decisive action.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Then you have to be both colour blind and illiterate to make the wrong choice (Pepsi max BTW).
Of course, as the second placed cola maker, Pepsi added a bit of red to it's logo to sow confusion among Coca-cola drinkers.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
How about the other way? BTW, Indian president is a rocket scientist!
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
Let us not forget that the US is the third largest country in the world, both in terms of land mass and in terms of population.
In population we're behind...
1) China
2) India.
In land mass we're behind....
1) Russia
2) Canada
Oh, and of course economically we're number 1 by a huge margin (though growing smaller under the republican leadership). Larger than at least numbers 2 and 3 combined, and probably a fair bit more besides.
So let's not go all european and claim that the US is some middle sized western country.
when do we get hired by USA for outsourcing their elections and politicians?
i live on an alternate planet
The Recounts were not messed up by the Supreme Court of the USA. Sorry but to the Democrats out there in the USA who are bitter [I don't like Bush either] take a chill pill. The Florida Supreme Court messed up by trying to make law and the US Supreme Court called them down.
To further educate (assuming it is possible) these people if Al Gore had not lost Arkansas or Tennessee the whole issue would not have come up. The actual decision was made in Tennessee which had a barf attack at their native son Al Gore. The reasons for this were obvious to those who traveled either of the two states (Ar or Tn). Frankly neither state got any benefits from having their people in High Office. As soon as Al and Bill left their respective states, they left them behind forever! Coming back and asking people you just stiffed to vote for you is not a good prospect for success. Cheated people tend to be a bit angry at who cheated them.
Regards Electronic Voting and cheating, well those remain serious issues. The problem is that electronic voting doesn't necessarily "work properly" just because the election went off without any evidence of misdeeds. Frankly electronic balloting eliminates the evidence of misdeeds. This is like the banks who announced that tellers quit making errors when they went to computers. The reality was that the banks just eliminated evidence of the errors by computers.
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Kerala has had a democratically elected state government since 1957. First one in the world, actually :).
As we have been using this tech for the last 12-14 years, you would think this is not really the case. People not-tech-savvy here think of the electronic ballot box as a phone. You dial the number, see the face, hit "Confirma" (ok).
I was "mesário", an election official, in the three first elections to use the machines: the first one was for "city councilpeople + mayor + state congresspeople + governor + congreespeople + senator"; the second one, presidential, was in two rounds (meaning no candidate got more than 50% in the first round); and the third one, like the first.
Imagine that. In the first electronic election, people had to "dial" 5 digits + ok + 3 digits + ok + 5 digits + ok + 2 digits + ok + 5 digits + ok + 2 digits + ok + ok (all ok?).
In our electoral section, in those three election (five or six rounds, for the mayor/governor elections are in two rounds, too), we had only one case (a 90-yo lady) who could not vote; as she was optional, anyway, she gave up. And this happened only in the first time around; in the other elections, she showed up (impossible to miss and the sections are always the same), voted ok, went away. The Electoral Courts nowadays make available in the poorer regions fac-simile voting machines, so people can train themselves (oriented by an electoral official, who is forbidden to give any real candidates names or numbers) in the use of the box.
I don't know about India, but at the present day and age, Brasil has more economic-related problems and political-ethics-related problems than democracy-related problems, IMHO. Our bad experiences during the autocratic regime (1969-1984) made us implement a very deep rooted democratic system and way of thinking; it's not foolproof yet (is any? I don't consider the outcome of the last USofA elections as a prime model of democracy), but it's not a real problem anymore. We do have a real solid democracy, and I hope we learn how to use it properly.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
E-voting makes it easy!
All we need is someone with enough guts to do it! Maybe if we get a hung parliament next election and there's a lib/lab pact.
I voted this morning. As an aside, I need to mention that this is actully the SECOND time my constituency used the EVMs. the last time was around 1999.
anyway, one thing i noticed about the EVMs while voting was that there is no way for me to know that the vote got registered against the candidate I actually voted for. of course, these machines have been tested fairly well enough [manufacturers Bharat Electronics Ltd (www.bel-india.com)]. But I need to know for sure too.
The other issue has to do with the number of candidates that can be accomodated on the EVM (perhaps 20 or so). The last general elections in 1999 in India threw up a logistical problem. One particular constituency had, well, 400 candidates. The Election Commission had to revert to paper. Why there were 400 candidates is besides the point(not relevant here).
And, to boot, we have an area bigger than the continental USofA.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
That sounds you are discribing communism. The UK labour party is, on paper at least, a socialist party. They have been in and out of power in the UK since the war, they are demoncratic and while slightly centralising have generally respected the civil and political rights in the same way the other party has. This is also true for the majority of europe and many other contries, where social democratic parties have participated in power.
What I find amusing is that even 15 years after the cold war ended some people can't seperate the communist system of the 'evil enemy' from socialism. Face it mate, Tony Blair, who you seem to be a fan of, is the leader of the UK socialist party.
The primary reason not to trust the fate of a democracy to a centralized voting system (electronic or not) is that any such system can be taken over. The stakes are much higher with a single system -- a party successfully taking it over wins all. So scumbags will be trying much harder to find flaws in it, than designers and implementors securing, or reviewers checking it.
The danger still holds partially true, BTW, even with a decentralized, but uniform election system -- the same flaw (software, hardware, or administrative) once found can be exploited everywhere.
For example, there are strong indications of elections rigging in the past in different states of the Union (by crooks from both major parties). But those only affected that particular state with nation-wide effects muffled.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I see. As opposed to fascism and capitalism on the right which is an inhuman and invalid philosophy of governing with a horrid track record - just look at the terrible abuses in countries all around the world in the last half century alone. It reverses centuries of human progress where people have gained rights from the rich and powerful by taking all those rights and giving them right back to the rich and powerful - or even worse the inhuman corporations. Government is often the best defense for the weak and the powerless against the self interests of the mighty.
--
USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.
This is something that is being fought for here in the USA - a voter verifiable paper trail.
Slowly, people are "waking up" to the problem, but it is unclear whether enough will be done or recognized by the November elections (our presidential election time this year).
A voter-verifiable paper-trail is tantamount to running any form of democratic process (whether it is representative based, like here, or otherwise) - there needs to be a way for the voter to know that the machine recorded who they voted for correctly. That way, if there is a question of who won the election, a hand recount of ballots may be made.
With electronic machines (especially ones in which there is no publically auditable source code), though - all is up in the air. Only if a receipt is printed and given to the voter is there a way to really be sure (and this way is open to vote buying fraud, so it really shouldn't be implemented!). How are you to know that the screen and paper match what is really in memory (and/or on disk)? In a close election, unless there is major contestation done afterward, a cheating "winner" could skate by unless the population DEMANDED a recount of the printed record. Even then, who's to say the printer couldn't be controlled to print random "fake" votes not tallied in memory - in case of a recount (hopefully voter rolls would catch this - if open-source code was used, this code could be looked for as well - unless the compiler sticks it in, of course).
My biggest fear is that most voters (and even most votees!) will never understand these issues (and I haven't outlined them all - there have already been recorded "failures" of electronic voting machines, and our "mainstream" media has passed on most of these stories - so the voting constituency has NO CLUE), and the "elections" will continue to go on - and nothing (or everything, to our greatest detriment!!!) will change...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Called protest voting, it is quite popular (by necessity) in many places in the world. In Russia we vote for "Protiv Vseh" candidate ('against all') and in many elections this fella collects 10% of the votes and more. Often there are people campaigning for him (her?). During the 1996 presidential elections Protiv Vseh got as much as 8% in several regions. According to the law, if the Protiv Vseh candidate wins the election, they are declared void. This has never happened yet in federal elections (state parliament or president), but it did happen in small regional elections several times.
:) It is said that you should expect bad things happening to your career if you lose an election to Protiv Vseh. Kinda like losing to dead guy...
It is believed that this candidate was originally added to the ballots during Soviet time, to help maintain the illusion of competitive elections.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
You see, what we call "poor people" here in the US, with very few exceptions, would likely (comparatively) be considered at least "middle-class" in India (I could very well be very wrong here, I have never traveled to your country, and I appologize for any sweeping generalizations I may make or have made). The "poor" here have TV(s), cable, computer(s), food, clothing, shelter, cars - basically all the necessities of life and then some!
I have recently been researching solar energy usage for cooking - a lot of sites describe places in India which use various solar furnaces and ovens for cooking (and I have to say, many of these devices are VERY ingenious, especially in figuring out how to make and build parabolas for furnaces - but I digress), since fuel for cooking in rural areas tends to be scarce or otherwise difficult to come by.
The images I have seen of these people (and I don't know when some were taken, but some were from fairly recent times), while obviously very hard working, show that they are obviously impoverished.
That gives a baseline on what constitutes "poor" there - we haven't had a baseline of that level of "poor" since perhaps the Great Depression or further back, when people here were mainly subsistence farmers.
We cannot compete at all on the wage front - what your people are willing to work for, say in a yearly salary - many times doesn't even equal what is considered "poverty level" wages here in the USA (say $15-20,000 USD/year). This is considered "poverty" here (!!!).
The question isn't whether that is a lot of money - it is what can be bought with that amount, and the fact that if most people are earning a lot less, they can't buy as much, so employers here can't pay them as much - lowest common denominator, etc sets in...
I guess what I am trying to get at is that in order to compete for those jobs being outsourced, potential employees here would have to be willing to take the jobs at much, much less than what they were working for them - while knowing that they can't afford healthcare, shelter, food, clothing, etc - because those items don't drop in cost (heck, I have never seen prices on so called "durable goods" ever go down in my lifetime, yet) as fast as the wages would have to.
I think that is what has people the most upset about offshoring to India (or any other country) - the fact that in those countries, the standard of living is so low comparitively, there is absolutely no way to compete, and there isn't another skill or market they can transfer their skills to in order to continue to work (and it costs so much in money and time to learn something else - for anything else that might make money - I for example would love to learn something to go into biotech, like bioinformatics or something - but all of that could and is being easily offshored right now, so what else? - even if I could afford to get a real degree). This is causing a classic FUD reaction.
I know that sooner or later it will all settle out - some of us will stay, continue to have jobs, some of us will move on, and some of us will go under in one way or another. I don't harbor ill will toward someone in the world trying to get a leg up on their situation, so to speak - I applaud the effort and results. Personally, myself, I see this whole offshoring thing (along with all the other multitude upon multitude of fiascos and such) as part of larger issues, something which sometime, likely in 5-10 years, will cause the USA to implode, possibly sparking civil war and/or revolution - the outcome of either is likely to be a very, very bad thing.
That is, unless all of these problems are actually the result of peak oil issues - in which case the entire world is likely hosed as the last reservoirs are fought over. Sooner or later it is going to go nuclear over energy resources, if peak oil isn't a myth (and I don't think it is - even the oil companies know about peak oil, why do you think they are diversifying into alternate energy research, and changing names to move away from "oil" to "energy"?)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
It is accurate. I read the newspapers in the U.S.,and 3 of my best friends at work are from India. I have been regaled with stories of exactly what I cited. So please don't respond to postings unless you know what you're talking about, which you don't.
India has a lot of illetrate people.(they have y no idear howto even spell their names and use the thumb print as their signature). Hmmmz how will he chose Mr Indian No1 or Mrs Italy Or Mr Goon ? Well we have symbols associated with parties/candidates(btw there are a lot of people who do stand in the elections as independant cadidates some of them do win .... )
Eg : The BJP has a red lotus as its symbol ...
Ok one Problem out of the way.
Next thing is how do ya make sure the same person does not vote again.
There has been a gradual evolution to prevent false votes.
1)They have issued Voter Id cards to most of the electorage
2)There is some indeliblie Ink Put on the Fingers of the voters a part of it on the flesh above the finger nails and a part of it below...
(hehe incase u thought u could just use a knife to scrape it off ur nails)
The goons did get around and find a solvent for the indelible ink ....
Thats the story behind getting the elections done fair and square ...
Now The EVM's .....
How do we ensure it works ?
hmmz consider the EVMs....
10 buttons 10 symbols/ names
U like Mrs Italy U chose her symbol (hehe ) or if u like the red lotus chose the same :)
Press the button and keep going home ....
Now that aside how do we take care of the security aspect ?
Ok here are a few possible senarios that could happen....
Button1 Should Belong to Mrs Italy....
Button2 should Belong to Blue Lotus ...
Button3 should Belog to the gunda near the Bus stand ....
Hmmz the smart government official tags
No1 as Blue Lotus
No2 as Mrs Italy....
Hmmz beep beep there are agents form all the candiates in the condituency to check the evms... Do they have the symbols at the right place etc etc...
2) The voting booth is captured by goons and they start puching on the button of their fav gunda near the busstand ...
Beep Beep India sets aside a lot of police personal for each of the booths. We have staggered polling so 3 days for the whole country. ParaMilitary personel ....
That aside the EVMS can register only a set amount of votes every minute... So cant puch away darlings .... wont work ....
3) Hack the system ......
Hmmz not likely unless u are the person who gets into the high security valult like they do in the movie Mission Impossible part Duex ?
These Evms after the election are sealed and placed in boxes before the agents of the candidates and sealed in steel boxes ... and set for safekeeping gaured by a lot of Men In Kakis ......
These Evms are never online ... never connected to any other device untill counting....
(They are more like ur gameboys not ATMS ...)
What if the Ballot Boxes get hijaked ?
Simple if its true repolling!!!! lol so if the goons do get hold of stuff there is another local holiday coming along lol :)
Haha and forget the goons are are far too few of them for a country as big as India. We dont worry about them goons in 99% of the booths ...
They restrict their activity usually to booths which are sometimes 10kms away from proper roads and stuff... so its understandable ....
I hope the write up helps clear all your nagging questions...
Do i Think it works ? and am i Happy about it ?
120% I am happy with the way EVMS work ...
Yep and u do get a beep after u have cast ur vote to help ya know u pressed a button and a light does go on for a second near ur candiates name (I am not too sure about the light its been 5 years since i cast my vote ... Time to go check again and refresh my memory about the no nonsense approach to voting .... )
Chao
we're all doomed.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
AC, I made a reply to this thread, for your answer...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
"You are forgetting the Democrats. Measured from the center, they are liberal/left wing."
I guess you missed the whole point of the post. The point being the center has moved so dramatically to the right in the last 25 years, and especially the last three years, that what is now passing for a centrist Democrat is what used to be a moderate Republican, the liberal democrats are painted as fringe loonies and have been completely locked out of the political process, and the center of the Republican party is moving to what used to be called the fringe right, not necessarily bad if it was to true conservatism but as I said its not, it much more closely resembles Fascism. Yes the Democrats are pro abortion and pro labor so if you want to define that is liberal go ahead.
"The US media is still mostly left wing (especially TV). This has not changed."
Thank you for playing the game and proving the point. The right wing keeps saying that in spite of the fact the media is dramatically further to the right than it was twenty years ago. Fox News alone has created a far right media that simply didn't exist twenty years ago. Talk radio is completely dominated by the far right. The so called liberal media has been compelled to move to the right to avoid being painted as the loony left. EVERY network jumped on the Iraq banwagon and was showing the exciting pictures of the tanks charging through Iraq. No network was asking the most rudimentary questions that should have been asked to challenge the deeply flawed and largely fabricated case for war in Iraq. They simply dare not because they would have been branded leftist and unpatriotic by the right wing and Fox. The end result questions that should have been asked weren't and we are in a ugly mess of a war that could easily cost a trillion dollars before its done and will most probably result in thousands of dead Americans and tens of thousands maimed for life.
"This is not true. Almost all corporations pay a rather high tax."
This is simply not true. They are in a rather high tax bracket but the tax code is swiss cheese for large corporations with skilled accountants. They fabricate losses, keep profits off shore, use complicated shelters, exploit tax loopholes that were put in the tax code to benefit large corporations. Its a simple fact that by the time it comes to send a check to Uncle Sam 2/3 of corporations especially the large multinationals DON'T pay their share of the tax burden.
The IRS doesn't even attempt to audit most large corporations, preferring to focus on middle america working people because they are an easy target. Auditing the complex books of large corporations is largely infeasible without massive new resources at the IRS. Just look at how long its taken to unravel Enron's books with a massive epxenditure of resources.
""and they are bought and paid for by big corporations"
Stop referring to far-left conspiracy theories as if they"
I'm sorry but all evidence suggests you are either naive or being intentionally dishonest. You have to look no further than last years so called Medicare reform bill. The drug and insurance companies flat out bought and paid for that legislation. Bill Tauzin who led it through Congress is taking a multimillion dollar job with the drug lobby as a reward for his efforts. The head of Medicare was, with the Bush Adminstration's approval, negotiating for a lucrative career with the very people he was rewarding with that legislation. He should have been fighting for the well being of Medicare, seniors and tax payers, but he was in fact concealing the true cost of the bill and how little it really offers seniors so he's future employers would get a bonanza at tax payers expense.
@de_machina
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/628 782.cms
Quite interesting! much like all science, which can be used both ways...
"You are flat-out lying on this one. Fox News is centrist, not far-right. Also, Fox News is one centrist news channel out of 4+ left-wing ones."
No, you are just proving that you are on the far right. The instant someone says Fox is centrist they have shown their colors. Rupert Murdoch is very right wing, he wont deny it nor will anyone else who is being honest, and so is his network. No one without a massive right wing bias would call Fox News "centrist". Their "Fair and Balanced" slogan is another right wing con to make it sound like what they are saying is in the center when it simply isn't. You just keep proving my point whether you like it or not. If Fox is your idea of the center the center in this country has shifted dramatically from where it was twenty years ago. In the run up to the war on Iraq they were a blatant mouthpiece for the Pentagon. They were running stories that the U.S. was in imminent danger of being sprayed with chemical and biological weapons from Saddam's RPV's to whip up that last bit of pro war frenzy. It was just insane and it just wasn't true. Fox was notworthy for having fired a reporter because she refused to read news that she and her editors knew to be a lie. She sued them and lost. The judge determined that Fox wasn't required to tell the truth.
I also really can't believe you would try to stand up for that Medicare bills. Seniors are overwhelming rejecting it, and for the most part don't even understand it. It throws out a stupid little discount card now to bait them in to being put in to HMO's where they can be denied care on a routine basis in the name of Medicare cost cutting and insurance company profits. Drug and insurance company lobbyists were circling like sharks smelling blood, just out of range of CSPAN's cameras, throughout the debate and its pretty well documented there were massive payoffs occurring in exchance for votes. If there hadn't been it never would have passed. It was a new low for American Democracy. Its not a great statement about you or what your believe in that you pretend nothing wrong happened there.
"Dan Rather".
Well to be honest I can't stand to watch him. Since 9/11 he has, out of necessity, turned in to something of a pro war flag waver, or at least he sure was when backing the war in Iraq was the thing to do. If he's your idea of the "liberal" media today you have once again proven my point.
Instead of dragging this on any more lets just admit it. You are a right winger, you aren't going to change, they seldom do, no point in arguing with you. I'm not sure I'm on the far left. I always decide my position on what I think is right and not what cubbyhole I'm supposed to be in. I hate the Republicans and I don't like the Democrats. Every other party in the U.S. is doomed by a system stacked in favor of the two in power.
The only thing I'm sure of lately is I am deadly afraid of everything the Bush Administration, its backers and its minions, are doing. I would care a little less if they were inflicting their scary agenda on just the U.S. but they unfortunately sit atop the world's largest military intelligence establishment and have developed a propensity for using it, unilaterally, wherever they feel like it. They are, beyond a shadow of a doubt the most dangerous entity in the world today and everyone outside the U.S. knows it. I can't stand Kerry and I'm very confident he doesn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of winning in November, so when Bush is reelected, I'm acting on the "love it or leave it" motto the right wing likes so much and I'm emigrating. I hope I can find a little out of the way country like Costa Rica that is insignificant enough that the Bush administration will leave it alone. I just simply never want to hear another word of his empty bullshit rhetoric or watch him lie the U.S. in to another war or anything else. Granted Clinton lied about sex. Bush lies about stuff that gets people killed and is costing the U.S. trillions of dollars.
@de_machina
Well, you don't need to be literate to vote through electonic voting machine. How hard is this: Find the logo of your party and press the button. THe ruling party, BJP, has lotus as their logo and the congress (the corrupted party that rules india for decades) has a palm (yes basically wrist and above). Find the logo and press the button. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Don't need to be Gauss or Einstein or ramanujan. It's not corrupton-proff. With indian economy skyrocketing, corruption seems to be down. I doubt much fradulent votes.
Here in Brasil, if you don't show up for voting, and don't justify your absence to an Electoral Judge, paying a fine, you can't get a public job, and your citizenship is severely restricted until you regularize your situation.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I don't mind if they use paper or not, I would just like they get GWB out of comission, which I hope they'll do this year.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
You get what you pay for...
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
what an achievement, electronic voting. I remember voting only once, the first time, using a pencil and paper! the last two times have been electronic for me (i live in belgium,). Some very small villages are still manual but even they will be switched over next time.
Brazil also already had electornic voting and now India, does the US want to be last at this or something? I don't see what is so difficult about it.
We all had a good laugh out of the US presidency elections last time.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
simpler and more complicated. See, to get a job -- any regularized job... -- you have to be a registered and showing voter. You have to show your Voter ID (called "Título de Eleitor") and a ticket showing you voted in the last election. If you don't have such ticket, you can't vote in the next election, too. But, most important, you can't get a job in government. In the next year, you won't be eligible to receive any $$$ from the government, including tax returns. If you don't show up to vote, you have to go to your Electoral Court and justify why you were absent (can be done by snail-mail, too, but even so you can be called to testify on Court) and pay a small fine.
So, every mandatory voter (literate 18-65yo people) has its Voter ID regularized.
You get in the section, show your voter id to the "mesário", sign a sheet, vote, get your "showed up" ticket, and go away.
Here, there is no transit vote (you can only vote in your section), and the Voter ID is nationwide (the database is central). It's fairly difficult to vote twice (but not impossible).
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Now that India is fully equipped for e-voting, maybe the US could outsource all our elections. Just add a line on the 1040: Do you want to outsource your vote to India? Yes/No
Software analysis of your tax return would determine your economic status and probable political stance, and cast your vote automatically. The evolution of American democracy would be complete:
1. Revolution
2. Participation
3. Spectator sport
4. Honey, The Simpsons are on!
You do realize that the U.S. is the 3rd largest nation in terms of population (and land area)? Hardly middling size.
Here we go again and I should have stopped an hour ago using my handle to argue with a chicken shit right wing anonymous coward..
... dictatorships" than any other country you can name:
.html
All I can say is that if you think Fox is the center I cringe at what a right leaning news channel would look like in your world.
"They presented mouthpieces of the Pentagon, yes (as any news station would). They also presented opponents. So what."
Well sorry but every network was wall to wall with retired generals and colonels which is odd if they are all as liberal as you claim they are. The opponents of the war were few and far between before, during and after, until it became apparent the Iraq war was a bad idea, and the Bush Administration suckered the media and the media with a bunch of bold face lies. The Iraqi's didn't shower us with roses when we arrived, they didn't have any weapons of mass destruction worth mentioning, and no one has ever established a link to Al Quaeda. Fact is Saddam wasn't a good Muslim, he was only one when it was politically convenient, and its pretty unlikely Islamic extremists would have anything to do with him. I know you right wingers refused to admit you were misled but you were.
"Real world translation: they fired someone who wanted to lie."
No. only in your special little world. Fox's editors ordered her to read something she knew was a lie and they knew was a lie and she was fired for refusing to. Fox simply has a pretty low standard for truthfullness for good propaganda. Like I said this case went to court and she lost because they judge determined it was Fox's prerogative to knowingly lie on their network.
"I guess it was OK: it was Clinton."
Nope, Kosovo was about as wrong as Iraq was. The Albanians were in fact trying to provoke a NATO intervention, they did and they got NATO to do their dirty work for them. You seem to be branding me as a Democrat lover which is what right wingers think everyone else is. Like I said I have no use for Democrats either and this is just another example of how similar they are to Republicans these days in launching preemptive wars in places which are none of our business. To Clinton's credit his war didn't cost hundreds of billions of dollars and a whole lot fewer Americans died. Clinton also didn't campaign against nation building, Bush did, and now he appears to be doing it all over the place at great expense to the U.S.
The only point I meant to make about Clinton was he was pilloried by the right throughout his 8 years in office, to the point he could barely function, and they never did make anything substantive stick. The Bush administration has been through a string of truly impeachable offenses and like teflon they've all slid right off without a peep, of course it helps that the Congress is controlled by his own party so he can pretty much get away with murder.
"Or how about the 95% percent of the rest of the countries that are not nightmare terrorist dictatorships, and thus won't earn Bush's wrath."
You seem to be a little naive about your beloved countries history which is kind of standard for the flag waving right wingers. I hate to point this out to you but the United States has installed more "nightmare
http://www.isp.nwu.edu/~fprefect/politics/timeli ne
I guess maybe the operative word is terrorist but that word seems to be applied to anyone who is in the "against us" category from "you are either with us or you're against us". This is one of George Bush's most chilling lines and one that shows his totalitarian leanings more than just about any other.
I guess I could go to Venezuela, they have a democratically elected Socialist government. Oh wait the Bush administration has been trying to topple their government pretty much since Bush was sworn in so I guess your contention that he only goes after "terrorist dictatorships" doesn't really hold. I could go to Columbia, no wa
@de_machina
... about the quality of India's democracy. Now it's official.
With universal e-voting, India no longer has a democracy. Those who control the machines (the counting) will always win.
We can officially scratch India off the list as the worlds most populous democracy. They are just like China now.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
It wasn't a major election....just school board members and three school budget questions.
Still it was nice to push a few buttons instead of flipping levers in a 1950's era machine. Maybe we are finally slowly experiencing the modernization of some of our oldest institutions.
Next, we ditch the electoral college.
One can hope.
-ted
If you read the article you'll see that voting is mandatory in only Belgium, Greece and Luxembourg, which is less than 5% of Europe.
My perhaps biggests pet peeve with Americans is their tendency to assume Europe is one homogenous place. In reality it is 50 very different countries, and there is hardly anything you can say about it that is not completely wrong about some of those countries.
" Since WW2, the US has a very strong record of opposing imperialism and overthrowing dictatorships and supporting nationalists."
1 97 136,00.html
Keep telling yourself that. The American propaganda which says America is a never ending champion of freedom and democracy and can do no wrong must have worked on you. That weblog is a little to long and has some marginal examples, but it is good because it is comprehensive and lists so many places where America really has trampled democracy around the world despite its empty rhetoric to the country which you seem to believe.
For effect he could have just focused on Iran, Guatemala, Argentina and Chile. All are places where the U.S. toppled democratically elected, nationalist governments and replaced them with ruthless dictators SINCE WORLD WAR II. The fact we installed the Shah in Iran is why the Iranians stormed our Embassy and hate us with a passion to this day. He was about as bad as they come for ruthless dictators. You are just so typical of an average American in that seem to have no clue when it comes to politics or history.
"It didn't happen. There was no US or Nato intervention in Albania. As for Kosovo and Bosnia, Clinton was 100% on the side of good in this one (stopping Serbia's aggression against Kosovo, Bosnia, and Croatia). Clinton even illegally armed Croatia which enabled it to win back the 1/3 of the country stolen by Serb invaders."
The people in Kosovo NATO was saving from Serbia were ethnic Albanians you retard. Kosovo is next to Albania. A reference on the guerilla army that was provoking Serbian retaliation that led to the NATO intervention. The Kosavars weren't quite the innocent victims NATO propaganda made them out to be to justify the intervention. Toppling the last communist states in Europe was the real goal:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/kla.htm
I doubt you will read it. You seem to prefer sticking to your preconceived world view rather than facing the facts that contradict that view.
"Since the war was not misguided, you are lying in that sentence."
You are hopeless. I give up. You are a classic example of why American's are despised around the world. You are self centered, arrogant, convinced America is always right when it isn't and most probably ignorant of history, politics, cultures other than your own and foreign affairs. You need to travel and read more, something other than just the bible. Here is a little gem to leave you with from Google News today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1
The gist of it is America has never been more hated in the Arab world than it is today, thanks to Iraq and Bush puckering up and kissing Sharon's ass last week. This is coming from our supposedly close and moderate allies in the region the heads of Egypt and Jordan.
If Bush continues down his current path and is reelected the U.S. wont have a friend left in the world in two years other than:
- countries with right wing wackos like Bush
- countries the U.S. has paid to be friends
If Spain is any indication Bush's few remaining friends in places like Britain, Australia and Italy will get voted out the next time they face elections because the people in the rest of the world hate Bush and they are hating American's more everyday thanks to Bush.
I personally would prefer America were liked and respected around the world, which it was after 9/11 before Bush and his cronies trashed all that goodwill with their extremist unilateral agenda.
@de_machina
It's a British site, calibrated with respect to British politics. If you're an American, then that would explain your right-shift. Europe - even Britain - is a bit to the left of America in general.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I think you're mistaking me for Lord Hutton.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
Bush will win the next election with 100% of the voting.
(* - Ahem, In-glish)
More than mere navel gazing.
Then again, most of the Deccan heartland in Telangana was always Communist (whether parliamentarially, ie, CPI/M, or militarily, ie, Naxals)
More than mere navel gazing.
Sorry if I sound rather cynical, but the fact is, while there is a fair amount of coverage of ethnicities, and dare I say, religions, there just isn't enough political coverage of all viewpoints. I consider myself to be mostly left-of-center on economic issues, and right-of-center on political issues, and as such, I find my political ideas woefully under-represented.
Unlike most other Indians though, I don't quite think the problem is politicians per se; there are many politicians who, IMHO, adequately could represent me in the Indian Parliament. Unfortunately, they are rather thinly spread across all parties. Which puts Indian polity in a rather unique situation; you would often find both good and bad performers in the same party and, as recent events have shown, even in the same government. The system, as it exists, just doesn't give me, an individual voter, enough power to punish the laggards and reward the performers; voting for a party, it seems, is not equivalent to voting for an economic or social policy.
I must mention a trivia bit here that is interesting in terms of evolutionary biology; I don't know if these elections would reflect this trend, but Indian voters, as a whole, seemed to have developed their own punishing system for the last 5 or so elections. You see, except for one single state government (I guess you could raise that number to four now), no incumbent government has ever been voted in again on election. It's almost as if a billion people have decided en masse that the best way to save the nation is, to use a cricketing metaphor, to rotate the strike every five years. Now, if you assume all politicians are worthless and that they need to be punished, then I suppose it's a fantastic system; but that, obviously, isn't how things work in real life. India needs fresh ideas, critical thinking and leadership to take it forward into the 21st century; India needs to cut short the rot that's growing within it.
Unfortunately, as big and impressive the election mechanism might be, I don't see it promoting the kind of leadership it really needs. And therein lies the rub.
More than mere navel gazing.
Just curious, but is your surname "Pillaallamarri" by any chance? If I'm not wrong, you share the name of your surname with that of a rather famous banyan tree ("Pillala marri maanu", one of the world's largest, I'm told) somewhere in the Deccan countryside. :-)
More than mere navel gazing.
Perhaps you're right - but only time will tell in the end...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I read newspapers as well, I've also worked in first world government for six years and I too have friends, some of them from Nigeria and Pakistan. There is corruption here, there is corruption there. The only difference perhaps is our politicians get their hands on more money. We could bat this back and forth for days without agreement but there is no need for you to take that snappish tone with me.