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Game with God
Andrew writes "GamerDad has an article up about how religion is handled in computer gaming, titled 'Game With God'. The article features quotes from Sid Meier, Jane Jensen, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Phil Steinmeyer, and Richard Garriott. Here's a snippet: 'While religion and spirituality add a lot to a game world, they often aren't used effectively. 'I don't think there are any games that treat religion at anything more than a superficial level,'; says Firaxis founder and Civilization creator Sid Meier. PopTop Software's Phil Steinmeyer agrees, noting that 'Religion is ignored in gaming, or if it is portrayed, it's wildly caricatured.'"
"don't think there are any games that treat religion at anything more than a superficial level,"
In Black and White you ARE god.
The game covers everything from how many ppl warship you to weather they build you a temple...
Plus being god, you get toset the rule or "morals" of your ppl.
What's the typical action flick treatment of religion? Barely existent if at all, and usually just an excuse to give people cool special powers.
Member of Orkut? Annoyed with spam?
I would state that not only is religion handled "ineffectively" in most games, but between the wish to be politically correct and catering to the predominantly anti-christian sentiments in the gaming community most games end up being downright disdainful of christianity.
What is worse is the fact that most games put out by christians fall into one of two categories; blatant propaganda which is more concerned with pushing a message than with providing an enjoyable gaming experience, and "fluff" mostly written for children.
What the christian community urgently needs is a development company to emerge which can balance both the needs of the gospel, and the needs of the game playing experience.
I always thought of games as escapism. Many wouldn't define religion as escapism, or at least those that strictly adhere to their faith.
To me, the two do not mix well.
YMMV
Run through the tech tree, then go for Fundamentalisim. There repercussions for that form of government were far outclassed by the *amazing* ability to build wealth and power for your fight against the infidels.
Yup. Not portrayed realistically at all.
So, is this yet another case of game designers trying to imitate the real world too closely?
-- MarkusQ
In Japan, religion is often portrayed quite heavily in games. Japan in general has a more liberal relationship with religion than the western world, and works of fiction aren't really lynched for not showing the church in a good light.
If you want some GOOD examples of religion in games, try Xenogears, Grandia, or Tales of Symphonia. All quite good games that deal with religion quite heavily. In the case of Xenogears, it was almost not released in North America, as the church would consider it to be almost blasphemous.
For a North American game dealing slightly more than average with religion... try Eternal Darkness. The game features a bit of the inquisition, and the main characters are using magick based a lot upon the pagan practices and rituals. I would guess that the church would be none too happy about this one either.
As long as the gods in nethack are pleased, I'm fine with it.
Chess has bishops
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Religion was an integral part of the game...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Using (or abusing) religion in certain ways manner way adds significant shock value to entertainment. People (in the US at least) are generally taken back by what they perceive as evil religious symbols or inverted ones from the mainstream. A prime example of this is Doom. I think most people feel more freaked out when they walk down a hallway and see certain symbols on the walls. Anime does this a lot too. Evangelion, for example, draws from mythology that is very recognizable to most Christians and it can be very disturbing for some.
Whether any of this is good or bad is not my concern, but I will say that it is getting very annoying. Religious nerves have been plucked far too much by a lot of entertainment and usually it's use just signals a great lack of creativity. If you really want to unsettle or disturb your playing or viewing audience, try to come up with something new.
Why bother.
Semi-serious? That's just an artifact of the youth of the medium and the lack of a real artistic indie segment.
There's nothing about the gaming medium itself that is semi-serious. It's perfectly capable of tackling any topic just as well as narrative fiction on celluloid or page.
Calling the medium semi-serious as of now is an unfortunate but true overview, but implying the medium is incapable of more is shortsighted and wrong.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
A "serious treatment" of religion is not needed in games. Maybe in a form of edutainment, but not a game! Do you want to play SimWorshipper, where you choose your religion (Buddhist, Hindu, Islam, Christian, and Jew, with Sikhs and Wicca forthcoming in an expansion pack) whereby you must go to synagogue/church/mosque once a week, or click to use the prayer mat, or else sit outside and meditate with nature? Then after 20 game-years have elapsed, you start trying to convince your game children to marry within the religion? Of course, we could always do "The Passion of the Christ, the officially licensed game," and give Icon Entertainment another few hundred million dollars, allowing you to be beaten for an hour and try to still stay alive by mashing the circle button. You could also argue there's been no real treatment of "sex" in video games either. Let's make a realistic sex game where the sheets smell and you have to do laundry, you have to rummage through your underwear drawer for condoms, and your roommate comes home in the middle and you have to suddenly get quiet! No thanks. Games don't have to address everything. They're supposed to be FUN.
Who'se AI programming could be considered good enough to simulate God? How would God come into play in, say, Doom3 or The Sims? Do you lose if you are sinful?
My momma always said "Don't argue religion or politics. No-one wins and everyone arguing looks bad" Games are pretty similar...
However, Hitmen and sex-crazed Singles are all OK ^_^
"We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
It is interesting to imagine what kind of game could result from rewarding players who choose to abdicate power and serve others.
I like games where I am god. And if the villagers didn't like it, they got a thrown in the ocean!
Or I'd feed them to my creature.
If reality was like Slashdot, most people would be (-1) Redundant.
ever notice that bishops and knights don't move straight, and well the king and queen can swing both ways.
I find plenty of religion in games - clerics and druids amass, ritual sacrifices, pentagrams and much much more. There's even a whole genre dedicated to where you play a god!
Or did the author perhaps want jewo-christian religion? Sorry, it doesn't easily lend itself to games, except as a church building or sacrificial ritual. Face it, singing hymns and sitting still praying isn't all that exciting, compared to slaying and casting spells that actually do something you can see.
Regards,
--
*Art
When I read the whole "Gaming with God" thing, I was more picturing the "Ultimate Santa-Claus DM in the Sky" sort of thing. Gaming with God would be pretty neat... you could finally prove that yes, in fact, God *does* play dice with the universe (and never botches!).
Windmills do not work that way!
What about Bombardment of Bible Questions? :o)
Heretic and Hexen were a couple of games based on the dark side of religion. I also said a little prayer every time I turned a dark corner.
Oh please. These must be really weird times, when people even _think_ about putting spirituality in games.
Games unite people. Religion separates people.
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
There's plenty of imagination of what the God-role might be in a computer game. I'm not a big fan of Andrew Greeley, but he did stake out this turf in The God Game a decade ago. Or, for a high metafictional take on a real-life role-playing game with a godlike director, there's John Fowles's The Magus. And I suppose the best Death-of-God Game would have to be Lucky Wander Boy by D. B. Weiss.
If you have a chip on your shoulder, take aim at Christianity. It's an easy target and you'll get applause from the gamer community for bashing. Every other religion of the world must be treated respectfully, though.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
How about Billy Graham's Bible Blasters?
Jewish mysticism has been only peripherally explored by Japanese game designers (quick example: what's a "Sephiroth"?) and mostly as window-dressing.
Also, Catholic priests are, broadly viewed, the basis for D&D clerics.
Both the Kabala and early Christian mysticism are rich footings from which to explore religious concepts in a game- I think they're mostly ignored by Americans because it's easy to offend people that way- which is fair enough.
However, I think a game based around the book of Revelations would be utterly awesome (perhaps an adaptation of "Left Behind"? I don't think much of apocalyptic stuff but it would sure make a good game.)
It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the religious concepts you grew up with aren't very interesting and don't have any real mysteries to explore. But even a cursory review of what's out there (ever hear of the gospel of Thomas?) reveals a great deal.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I think a large reason for this is that many, many games for the hardcore gaming audience deal with killing in some way. Your Half-lifes, Warcrafts, GTAs usually involve killing a lot of people (There are other genres, like racing and sports games which are also popular but don't really lend themselves to religion all that well, Mahatma ghandi's Racing Rally Challenge not withstanding).
It's difficult to make a game about Jesus (or whichever all-good deity) that will appeal to these people. So far game developers have turned the game into some sort of holy war, and more or less ignore all those religious calls for forgiveness and compassion, as in Requiem: Avenging Angel and Messiah.
For now, I could see something like Ultima IV's need for morality being integrated into games that featured religous characters, or possibly incorporated into some aspects of The Sims. However, I don't think there's enough gameplay options in today's market for them to be a viable alternative as a genre on their own.
Who hasn't exclaimed "Kill'em all and let god sort 'em out" in a gore-spree in [insert FPS here]?
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Religion has as much place in the video game as it does in the science classroom.
(And I mean that to be half serious, half flamebait.)
All religions I know of assume the existence of another, spiritual, universe that's truly important, compared to our material universe, which is considered more or less irrelevant. Their reasoning goes more or less like "we do not have to worry about this life, eventually we will all die, so we should be more concerned about what comes after death."
But that assumes the existence of that unproved afterlife. What if it doesn't exist? What if this life is our only chance and, once it ends, everything is over for us? To refuse to even contemplate this possibility is the Mother Of All Escapisms.
I take it you're not talking about this Baldur then.
I would love to see Alien -vs- Predator -vs- GOD
Most gamers don't care for religion because with the modern world we get it forced upon us repeatedly by a failing group of people living in olden times. Like we don't care for being PC most the time, it's something we don't believe in and if we don't believe in it then we have no respect for it.
I live my life as I see fit, I don't need a book several thousand years old for advice. Recently I was in church (funeral) and all that came to mind was "Man God is selfish...". Religion fitted a world hidden in mystery, not a world full of science and people trying to get money from it.
If people wish to live in the past then that is fine but they shouldn't try and force it on others.
I like muppets.
Probably been noted a dozen times already, but they missed the most obvious one.
Sure you can have a video game about the rituals and the dress and the temples, but if you want to deal with religion in a truly non-superficial level, you have to reflect upon the ideas behind all of these things. Video games are fundamentally about actions as opposed to ideas. Sure a message can be added to the background as part of the story, and perhaps this story could even change as a result of player actions. But for philosophical ideas to be truly embedded as a part of the video game (instead of just something tacked onto the story that could just as easily be a book or movie instead), the ideas have to be integrated into the gameplay. That's a pretty difficult task - the ideas behind most gameplay usually boils down to things like combat strategy, financial management, or pure reflexes...even games that are superficially about something else, such as The Sims or Black and White, are mostly derived from these three mechanics and given a different coat of paint. I think a game that truly addressed religion at a deep level would have to move beyond these ingredients as they don't mesh well with the core ideas of most religions.
You have no idea what you are talking about - some of the best musicians out there are Christian rockers. Personally, I like Chris Impelliterri (Screaming Symphony CD) - he is one of the best guitarists out there - plain and simple (genre: metal).
This was a Civ type game. It made use of priests to convert the Navite Americans.
:)
I'm pretty sure that's the game, correct me if I'm wrong someone please.
I'm thinking that if ethics is included in the game, read most FPSs, then perhaps some games could include references to a diety as part of the role playing or decision making. But all too often this does fall in the category making the god be healer more than anything.
What would probably be a cool idea is to let the player customize the description of thier diety and select values that this diety represents.
Of course as noted by the article, even with the Sims allowing user created content, the article writer didn't find any evidence of religious items created for the game. That either speeks volumes about what type of people play, unlikely, or volumes about what people care about when playing the Sims.
I don't think people would stop buying games if religion played a part if the only god allowed was the Christian one(lots of my fellow game playing friends are Christians), but I do think they would if it was preachy or heavy handed.
I've run across few games where adding religion would have added a lot to the game though.
Worship how you chose or chose not too, play what you like, and if the two should cross, well bully for you!
Be well,
Tojosan
I think you'll find that a very outspoken minority of Slashdotters worship Ayn Rand.
The Fellowship in Ultima VII The Black Gate has detailed rituals, songs, example services, etc... You even get to go through the initiation rituals to join at one point and interact with other believers and hear stories about how it's affected their virtual lives.
"Religion is ignored in gaming, or if it is portrayed, it's wildly caricatured."
Insert *any* substantive intellectual or philosophical topic in place of "religion" and that sentence almost always holds true. They're *games*, they're not meant to provide truly rigorous analysis but rather to entertain.
The only game I can think of that has some rather sophisticated references to religious and philosophical concepts is Xenosaga (and presumably the prequel Xenogears, though I've not played it), but even then it's nowhere near as deep or intellectually stimulating as a good book.
So while this is not a hard and fast rule, I would say that the vast majority of games are, well, just entertainment. Very few games truly broach into what I would consider art or substantive dialogue.
In a country where groups got together to burn Harry Potter books because they "taught kids to be witches and wizards," can you *blame* game creators for trying to tiptoe around religion?
I can't believe no one has mentioned "god mode" yet.
-goobers , anyone?
Anyway, this guy comes across in the story blurb sounding a bit like Ned Flanders.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
Why is it any surprise that games only portray religion on a superficial level? The vast majority of people I know are only superficially religious. Christians may say they are such, but they don't live every day as if they were following the path Christ laid out for them. Rather, they attend church once in a while - usually on major holidays - and wear crosses. At most, they slap a bumpersticker on their car or a sign in their window proclaiming their faith.
Many games include an aspect of religion or spirituality - though it is seldom Christian. An underlying theme of good vs. evil is spiritual in nature. Most RPGs have the idea of heroes guided by destiny often based on a prophecy. Many adventure games like Tomb Raider delve into the spiritual beliefs of ancient cultures.
Actually, as I read that article I realized that the author is more interested in seeing games that make Christianity the emphasis. That might appeal to some people, but there would be a fairly good-sized market it would turn away UNLESS the gameplay and story were otherwise engaging. Most people don't listen to Christian music for the lyrics if the music and singing are poor. Likewise, few would play a game just because it involve Christian beliefs and activities if the gameplay and story were so-so.
I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
I think Ultima IV is a very good example of religion / spirituality in a game.
In order to progress in a game, you had to show moral fibre in your actions (ie no thieving or running away from enemies), then meditate at a shrine and answer various questions about the virtue that you were trying to improve. The answers to the questions (along with the location of the shrine etc) could be picked up from talking to NPCs.
I LOVED this game - the moral code that was imposed on your character only made the game FEEL that much more important and real.
And you got an Ankh and a cloth map in the box. *sigh*
It's easiest to find religious references in the strategy genre. Here religion is presented as historical context, or it's incorporated into the gameworld to function as Karl Marx put it, as "an opiate for the masses."
1.) Who knew that on slashdot, it would be good to apply the Communist Manifesto to anything.
2.) IF Karl Marx were to write about video games, he would have viewed that it had no place in the social order. (As you might glean from reading his works, he did not hate religion. He advocated for separation of church and state). DISCLAIMER: IANACOS (I am not a communist or socialist)
Have you Meta Moderated t
I am almost certain that at least two of the Monkey Island games had scenes inside of a church. In the first game there was the church on Melee Island where the final battle takes place. In the fourth of the series, Escape from Monkey Island, Guybrush visits the First Church of LeChuck.
It was really about the contrast of "faith" and "religion"... good stuff.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Vid games are market driven products. If there were a market for religion in games, don't think for a second these corporations wouldn't have already tapped into that? It's because the majority of gamers, at least that I've encountered, don't believe in the organized religion that lives in our mainstream reality. Most gamers are science nuts, and science is about getting to the bottom of why we exist, something religion fiercely ignores. It may be worth a shot, but I doubt games diluted with religion will sell enough to carry it's own weight. However, games where there may be fictitious religions with better ideals and morals than the pathetic ones we're forced to hear about now may prove exciting and interesting.
The article falls flat on two fronts for me. The article assume that 1) religion means christianity 2)ethics are the sole domain of religion.
Outside of that particular pet peeve I would also argue that the article does not address the issue on its true scale: religion in mass media. Nor does it address the reason for the typically marginal role of religion in the mass media: there are a lot of people who either don't want to see it in that context(Christians included) or who do want to see it but can't agree on what it should look like.
Just looking at the miriad of splinter groups within the judeo-christian pantheon of religions and the innumerable hotly contested details that caused them to split in the first place should make it clear why a strongly religious game with mass appeal would be difficult to create. Now think in terms of the gaming demographic. That doesn't mean impossible, but outside of the occassional high production value rarity al-la Passion of Christ I wouldn't hold my breath.
And to get to the heart of the issue, is that really such a bad thing? Doesn't relying on video games to provide religion, education, ethical guidance, etc. simply mirror the TV as a baby sitter/parent problem?
simpsons:
"christian rock is just pop music with the word baby changed to jesus"
Possibly true, but very much to the chagrin of Miss Rand herself as she articulated in recorded lectures that were converted into her book, The Art of Non-Fiction. She frequently goes off on 'Randbots.'
> would state that not only is religion handled "ineffectively" in most games, but between the wish to be politically correct and catering to the predominantly anti-christian sentiments in the gaming community most games end up being downright disdainful of christianity.
Religion != Christianity. There are many more religions than Christianity, even in the US, and even in the parts of the US where "Christians" don't want to acknowledge that there are other religions.>What the christian community urgently needs is a development company to emerge which can balance both the needs of the gospel, and the needs of the game playing experience.
When the "Christian community" can agree amongst itself on the meaning of the gospel, perhaps there will be some chance of this. The lions and the lambs will sit down together sooner than the Adventists will with the Catholics. Hmm... that might make a good Doom wad.Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
And then only in English! In French at least, the name of that chess piece is litteraly translated to "Court Jester".
Delay is preferable to error. (Thomas Jefferson)
There are intelligent followers of every great religion in the world. When I say "intelligent" in this context, I not only mean natural gifts for information retention, information processing, logical thought, and so on....but also well educated and accomplished in various realms of scholarship.
There are also just as many equally intelligent and equally educated and equally accomplished atheists, agnostics, and "spiritually unclassifiable"s.
People who are religious like to believe that intelligence predisposes people to follow their religion. People who are anti-religious like to believe that intelligence predisposes people to be anti-religious.
History, however, shows that intelligence alone does not sway one in either direction.
Philosophize until you are blue in the face, but the determining factor must lie elsewhere.
... we were the game & God was the one with the controls.
Ultima - Labyrinth of Worlds: what about eight virtues of avatar?
Sacrifice: Gods are entities evolved to immortality, but without worlds they can control they are nothing
Planescape-Torment: Do not trust the angels. Do not trust yourself if your soul is divided.
All these messages *are* highly spiritual and connected to ancient traditions of mysticism. I mean the mysticism of supreme emancipation and freedom, not the religion.
Looking back at the history of mankind, the greatest sin ever done to humanity was the introduction of monotheism. Don't you see it is the main source of warring for past 3000 years? Up to date?
Because the purpose of religion is to deny what is most sacred to all humans: the Free Will.
Let the games help to grow free decisioning in childs. Their responsibility will follow the experience. Picture totality, authoritarian hierarchism and brute force as inferior, as it is where it belongs in the society of true freedom.
There you are, staring at me again.
Games have plenty of religion. Unreal Tournament 2004 would not be much fun if I couldn't be reincarnated every time I died.
I recall once seeing the moves expressed in terms of the powers of state (row/column moves) and church (diagonals).
- Foot soldiers/Pawns make progress through the authority of the state, but may only prevail in battle by the grace of God.
Any resemblance this has to why the rules are the way they are is, no doubt, purely coincidental-- but it's a servicable means to explain the moves to new players.Rooks/Castles, as the embodiment of worldly authority, are immensely powerful in matters temporal, but impotent in matters spiritual. Bishops, as the representatives of the Church, are the other way around.
The King and Queen are, British style, empowered with the authority of both church and state, and may elect to act with either as they choose. If you wonder why the queen seems more powerful, look to Elizabeth and Victoria. =)
And Knights, due to their holy vows to defend the right, must always act simultaneously under mandate of both church and state, thereby transcending any obstacles in their path.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Being immaterial and omnipresent, I doubt this will worry God in the slightest.
I think of the Gary Larson cartoon where God participates in a game show, and leads with an outrageous 15000 points against the current champion ,who hasn't even scored yet.
Anyone remember this great old game? Now there's a game that has religion in it! Why, the player is god!
... if he could do THAT, then why am I the one gunning down all those monsters?
Actually, I'm thinking maybe this is part of the reason there's so little religion in games - quite often the gamer takes on the role of the supreme being. Like Sims. If the player isn't a god, I don't know what he is. Or Civ.
In the old times (maybe still, but definitely back in the day) some games "cheated" when you were playing against the computer. This was to make the game harder to beat, but it also became infinitely annoying. So in a sense the computer is god in a game, you know, the reason for it all. Or the programmer might be god. That means, writing god into a game will be like god creating a god for the game.
God in a game might be annoying - a super existence that can do anything in a flash
I guess though that maybe religion could be the theme of a game, rather than god... Maybe.
A game needs to be interactive, or it's not a game. Most religions are not interactive, rather, they come with a set of rules or suggestion for how to make your life better. You can't change it, well, not much. Maybe this is the problem.
Also South Park (709). Cartman starts a Christian Rock band, his first song:
I need you in my life, Jesus [baby]
-I just can't live without you, Jesus [darling]
-I just want to feel you...
'Religion is ignored in gaming, or if it is portrayed, it's wildly caricatured.'"
Not entirely. Although, frankly, the people who try to use games to promote religion do an even worse job of portraying it than the rest. Anybody played Catecumen? Since I assume you all have eyes, I'll assume not. It made a fairly successful bid for the worst FPS game ever, but it couldn't even do THAT well. It was an attempt to portray the persecution of early Christians by Roman soldiers to young modern Christians. It does this by having you run around an assortment of architecture (the developers never quite get the distinction down between Roman, Gothic, Victorian, and Japanese buildings) and shoot people with a sword.
Then I know of two games with variations on the title "Noah's Ark." One is the worst FPS game on the SNES (and considering how bad most of them were for that system, that's saying a lot) and the other looked like a half-assed hack of SimFarm.
Frankly, I think the average treatment of religion would increase substantially if those people who want religion treated "fairly" in video games stopped developing them (by "fairly," I use their own definition of fair, in that the games serve as a conduit to spread their message). They're hardly setting an example for the rest of us.
You could configure the game to play by your favorite belief system.
dude. you're awsome. I love your post.
really, I agree. there isn't a point to having religion be the only point in the game. it's always going to be secondary. as you say, there is no fun gameplay in worship or browbeating the masses into submission.
the real fun religious gameplay comes in with stories about spiritual beings, avoiding sacrificial rituals, killing vampires, incanting spells, or stopping cute animals from following each other into the sea by digging holes.
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com
Does this mean the money I pay to the temple of the dark elf sect in lineageII ( http://lineage2.com ) aren't tax deductable?
Yes, morrowwind's story is pracitcally all about the native religions in the game. The main character ( you ) is a christ figure even! You die. You come back. But it's more like the second coming and you're cutting off heads this time! =)
The Thief series of games is all about religion. The Builders, the Hammerites, Pegans, etc. The series doesn't hide the fact that they're poking fun at religion and showing how dangerous they can be, if taken too seriously.
The last time I went to Church, I fell asleep.
Then you went to a stupid church, and need to look for a different distributor.
"Church, the product" can meet the needs of many consumers (to continue the commercial theme). There is music, social interaction, and free coffee. Worship services and sermons are opportunities to deal with crucial social issues of the day, explore deeply spiritual and philosophical topics, and receive instruction on intimate psychological matters. Churches are also places where people can organize into collectives to further the social good--either directly, through projects of their own, or by rallying behind other organizations like Habitat for Humanity or Heifer Project. If the church you went to has lousy music, people, and coffee, doesn't challenge you intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, and morally, and doesn't do worthwhile things for others, then you picked a crappy church.
I readily admit that there are indeed many crappy churches on the market, but I would ask for the concession that there may be non-crappy churches also. I've gone to several that contributed significantly to the lives of the people who showed up and the community around them.
Please don't paint everything and everyone with a single, broad brush. Your attitude is akin to having a bad experience at Sears and saying that all stores are bad, or shopping in general is bad. If you don't like the store, by all means, be a smart shopper and take your business elsewhere; don't decide to forswear shopping or malign all the stores that carry a similar product line.
Afterlife
I believe the main reason you don't find a lot of religion in games is because there simply isn't a market for it. There is only one religion popular enough int the western world to form a respectable sales base and that is christianity. The only problem is that most christians willing to buy a game for it's religious content are not going to be very big gamers in general. Religion can be used effectivly as a side plot or even an underlying cause, unless of course it's used in a humourus manner such as B&W, however as a main sales pitch or even main feature of a game, it simply wouldn't sell enough to be a profitable venture. It's for this reason that religion isn't used seriously in mainstream games and why it probably won't be seriously used anytime in the near future. and frankly that's fine by me, i don't want there to be some religious theme to my virtual bloodlust. WAHGHGHGGHGH to the world.
The internet is a spiritual network of the people connected to it. We interact earth's operations like interconnected players on everquest etc.... internet games are just becoming another avenue for people to ignore thier misery while they loose at the game that's beating THEM. http://www.globallyconscio.us
-Digital Extremist
C.S. Lewis and (to a point) Tolkien did much to show that religious themes can easily coexist with fiction. The endless "let's try it from scratch" 60s put a bit of a kabosh on that... experimenting in ideas of myth-religion without knowing how much they repeated in old fiction.
Frankly, I see "religion" is actually present in many many spheres... but a new establishment has arrived. It's just the pop-psyche (i.e. Oprah) plus bits-of-new-age psuedoscience that we've had tons of in the 20th century. (practice X does Y for your spiritual Z condition, take two and call me in the morning).
Religion in Babylon 5, for example, was one of the first beginnings of a good treatment in mass media... because believers at least showed some positive though vague devotion as part of a plot (monks at one point, and the Minbari otherwise).
Most scifi religion is incredibly shallow and made for outsiders, with the constant drum of "Hey man, don't get all religious about stuff cuz it all looks the same to us." moral-of-the-story.
Even that only started from the 50s and earlier when tons of minor religious divisions mirrored ethnic/cultural ones (i.e. blacks, whites, immigrants etc..). I knew one old lady who declared the One thing she knew about her Presbyterian church was that she wasn't Baptist. Yikes. That has always scared authors.
Anyway the writing can only occur when religion is handled in a fashion that doesn't get everyone spooked about the loudest minorities involved. Someone's got to stop caring about Pat Robertson and yet still know who Jesus (or Bhudda) was without a minor "survey of religions" class.
Besides, atheism/materialism keeps framing the discussion (e.g. Babylon 5 came down to assuming all "gods" were advanced races) and that forms a rift on how much you're even allowed to describe beliefs. It's tough to write plot about followers of God X or Y when the author makes clear that they're idiots doing something for no purpose or reason except the cuteness of "blind" idealism.
What's gotta happen is that some story writer somewhere has to first avoid the swashbuckling loot-and-horde-and-kill plot. Secondly they need to leave mystery about something Bigger having a role in the story instead of mere science-and-discovery explaining it all by the last 5 minutes.
If it's "universal harmony" that someone deals with (i.e. Ultima V) so be it, but if its God in any fashion it makes the plot and reality of behavior much richer. Yes it makes NPCs *much* more complex... and a score isn't just "gold" or "life" anymore. Deal! I want to see that happen.
We're at the effective top for polygon counts anyway. Someone has to *THINK* that fiction matters someday in a game.
Nietzsche is dead - God
I know that Church is great for some people, and I didn't question that at all. I was raised Catholic and it didn't work for me. Does this mean I hate Catholics? No. I have a good friend that attend a non-denomination church. I went with him once on a mass that had an internet theme, and I found some of the points really interesting, although I don't agree with most of them. I was merely trying to imply that there doesn't need to be a place for religion in games.
>some of the best musicians out there are Christian rockers.
... (but these chumps today? theyr'e effing horrible)
yeh, handel was amazing... he totally ro>0rd
... hi bingo
A far better question is: Why don't religions respect the games? The religions are supposed to be serious, truthfull and relevant. As such they should be respectfull of something that brings enjoyment to so many people.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Tell that to Augustine or Galileo, some of the greatest minds were devout followers of the church.
'The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell.' - St. Augustine
Last post!
Religion in games is more than just shock value. Often times it's a subtheme or a driving force for the protagonist/antagonist. granted shock value is generaly the most recognized BECAUSE it's a shock. However that doesn't mean it's the only way religion is used. HALO is a good example of this, the whole game is based around a holy war, but the religious aspects aren't used as a shock factor, just reasoning.
"Jesus: The FPS":
...hm, on second thought: no.
While demented soldiers and demons run around the battle arena trying to frag you and each other, your ask as Jesus The Peacemaker is to persuade them to stop fighting.
With a bag full of holy water and bibles, your task is to put and end to the violence.
Powerups include "Quad-prayer" (make them believe in you. If they fail, instill fear into them.) and "Persistent nagging" - If they ignore you, annoy the shit out of them until they listen.
If you played that and anyone knew about it, you'd probably get your ass kicked for being such a pansy, haha.
Not to mention, religious games (with the exception of Black and White) would be utterly boring, just like most religious movies.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Billy Graham's Bible Blaster?
I would love to see a game based on the bible. It would be the most violent, debased game in history!
Those of you who've read the bible with any sort of objectivity know what I'm talking about. How many places in the OT does god command the jews to wipe out entire peoples, including women and children? There are even passages where he is angered because the jews decide to spare a few individuals or animals. So in any true bible game, genocide has to play a key role. And of course god doesn't leave all the fun to his chosen people; he certainly gets his hands dirty as well. Some of the more famous instance of god's handiwork include leveling Sodom and Gomorra, killing all the first born in Egypt when the pharaoh refuses to free the jews (interesting note: according to the text, god intentionally "hardened the pharaoh's heart" to Moses' pleas; god forced the pharaoh to refuse so that he could demonstrate his power via the plagues), and wiping out almost every living thing on the planet in a big flood cause he didn't like the way the humans he created were turning out.
Or, how about a Sims-type game? You could try to follow god's laws as they're laid out (mostly in Leviticus, IIRC) without getting stoned to death. Choose to pick up some sticks on the Sabbath? Sorry: you get stoned. Are you a woman who gets raped in the city? Sorry: you get stoned. In a city you should have been able to scream loud enough that someone would have heard. Is your Sim character a child who makes fun of a bald guy? Sorry: god sends some bears out of the woods to maul you. On the plus side, though, you can have slaves and multiple wives, sell your daughters, and have sex with your servants. (Yes, these are all actual biblical laws/stories.)
And the NT isn't much better. You've got the whole crucifixion thing, which is plenty violent (and intentional; not like the omniscient being didn't know it was going to happen). And then there's the problem that Jesus' core message is about as horrible a moral as you can find: "Worship me or you'll be tortured for all eternity, regardless of how good a person you are." And considering god's actions throughout the bible, could any truly moral person worship him in good conscience?
So yeah, I'd like to see a game based on the bible. I want to see the religious right squirm when a game based on the actual stories of their holy book makes Doom 3 look like Big Bird on Ice.
p.s. If you doubt the accuracy of anything I've said, I encourage you wholeheartedly to read the bible yourself. You'll see that the points above are but a tiny sampling of the atrocities the bible has to offer. I just discovered that some enterprising folks have even distilled a lot of the horrors (as well as the ridiculous "science" and many contradictions) of the bible for you: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Ok so want a realistic portrayal of religion in gaming, then start a company that specializes in that. I mean, come on, look around ya, there is Christian Television, and Christian rock, and Christian Hollywood (i.e. The Passion). Your market is about 33% of the world's population.(http://www.adherents.com/) I personally won't buy into it. Portraying a specific "religion" in a game, console or PC, would be a bore. Now if you want to impress me find a way to add spirituality into a game and I may buy. When I say "Spirituality" I mean a well rounded, all-inclusinve search for the "soul" or "inner-being" and the triumphs and downfalls therein. Religion and "GOD" do not belong in the mainstream videogame market. Just as they do not belong in our law making process and our schools. If you want a game with your religious values, then program one and sell it to anyone who will buy into it. I personally find this thread rather disturbing and pointless.
I never thought about that, but it certainly an interesting take on chess. I'll need to share this with some friends.
What is your penile percentile?
There are plety of games that feature religions such as Jedi etc. Why shouldn't that be enough?
I resent these arrogant zealot christians that assume religion must == christianity, and also assume that becuase they believe in Jesus they are morally superior and have the right to tell everyone else how to live.
There are all ready too many of my TV channels filled with self-righteous christian bullshit that I don't want already. At least keep them out of my games.
- Nietzsche is there really anything else to say?
What is the justification for taking religion seriously? All religions create a world view that refuses to hold itself up to reason, instead relying on blind faith. For anyone unwilling to suspend disbelief, it *is* nonsense.
Many (most?) individuals are emotionally indoctrinated into religions before they have the power to reason or to make individual choice or, worse, when they are emotionally vulnerable.
But it is reason that separates us from other animals--not emotions.
Ideas must be valued on their explanatory power. Religions have little if any explanatory power. The passion of their defense is inversely proportional to the intrinsic value of their message.
-l
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No Problem and nothing personal. In fact, the worst thing I would worry about is being stung with a downmod for O.T. ;-)
I would guess you are referring to this paragraph:
"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."
So what is the problem with the grandparent?
Double disclaimer: besides the grandparent IANACOS, I am also not a philosopher.
Have you Meta Moderated t
So far, Islamic game software has been rather lame. There's Come to Salah, but it's a "memorize the Qur'an" edutainment product. Something edgier is needed to sell to the Arab street.
What's needed is Diplomacy with the graphic quality of Tropico. You're a dictator trying to play off the religious fanatics against the moderates while dealing with neighboring warlords, US-backed enemies, and ambitious relatives. Try to suppress the imans, and you get a rebellion; give them power over education, and soon few of your people have any useful skills. Start a war to divert attention from your domestic problems, and run the risk of losing. Fail to follow the precepts of the Prophet and the people turn against you.
It must be playable in Internet cafes. That's your market.
The islamic world does have a sense of humor.
That's rich. And you are, of course, able to perceive with complete accuracy truth from lies. Maybe I should start worshipping you...
Bart: Videogames! Whaddya got? [grabs a videogame off the shelf, and reads the title] "Billy Graham's Bible Blaster?"
Rod: Keep firing; convert the heathens!
Bart: Got him!
Rod: No, you just winged him and made him a Unitarian.
Todd: Look out, Bart! A gentle Baha'i!
Bart: All right! Full conversion! Thanks guys, this really cheered me up.
Video: Second Coming! Reload, reload!
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Misleading. I was expecting a far more interesting article, something omipotent, an article that people would gather from miles around just to read the catch line. Oh well.
A tautological argument based upon Christian theology somewhat understood does not exhaust the subject of religious beliefs.
For instance, Judaism embraces the story of the tree of life and the tree of knowledge, while rejecting the notion of "original sin."
I would venture to suggest that post Vatican-II Catholics, who believe that there is a place in Heaven for righteous non-Christians, would not be included in your analysis. As the vast majority of Catholics can be described as post-Vatican-II, I would suggest that your 2-point summary is woefully inadequate.
Be well,
Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
Do you know much of the many Nyssas which the Gods Osiris and Dionysus founded -- and that "Dionysus" itself means "God of Nysa" meaning that He was born there? Googling "Nysa Osiris Dionysus" makes for interesting reading! (Since everybody can Google I'm not gonna bother with links.)
According to Religions, the first Nysa was in Egypt. Osiris went a-touring the world. He founded a Nysa in Arabia Felix, and one in India that some think is today's Peshawar.
Dionysos (I alternate spellings religiously) was from the Nysa in Arabia Felix. Or maybe a Nysa in what is today NE Iran, to the SE of Caspian, on the road from Tehran to Balkh in Bactria. The Persian legend says that He first cultivated the Vine in these mountains around their Nysa, producing His entheogen, Wine.
The Nysa of Dionysos is also placed in Libya or Ethiopia. And here we meet an interesting concept, "(A)Ethiopia." The Greek means "Burning Eyes" and it's easy to see why sub-Saharan Africans might be so called. The "Aeth" can, however, also refer to "ethereal" and as such is the root of our English "ether." It refers to the "upper air" a realm of Gods.
It is the root of the name of Aeetes King of Colchis, Son of Helios the Sun, and father of Medea. Colchis is the region to the east and southeast of the Black Sea, it's where the Golden Fleece was kept for Jason to fetch. There are maps showing this region to be called "Ethiopia!" Herodotus records the presence of woolly-haired people there, and it has been guessed that a Pharoah Sesostris (I forget which) founded a colony there.
(The Royal Family of Persia claimed descent from Aeetes through Medea. If biblical Jesus is a descendant of biblical Esther and her husband a King of Persia, then biblical Jesus might actually be the descendant of a God: Helios!) St. Helena mother of Constantine "the Great" ("the great what?" is my question) was from a Balkan Nysa, though whether this be the same as Drepanum later Helenopolis I don't know.
There is a Nysa in Greater Syria that is also associated with Dionysus.
Strangely, the Nysa in Anatolia was founded much too late to be a birthplace of the God Dionysos, like 3 centuries before Julius Ceasar. The Religion of Dionysus was imported to Greece from Anatolia, but not from Anatolian Nysa.
All of this is Googled and approximate, the reader is urged to good sources like pantheon.org for more accurate and useful stuff.
I won't contest Augustine; Augustine, to put it simply, was a dude. But Galileo... Let's just say I have some serious objections to how Galileo is usually represented.
Galileo, contrary to the myths that have sprung up surrounding him, wasn't put on ecclesiastical trial just for saying the Earth moved 'round the sun. After all, that theory had already been established years earlier... by a Catholic priest.
(Funny, isn't it, how Copernicus always gets remembered as an astronomer and never as a priest?)
Galileo was put on ecclesiastical trial for two things: (a) being wrong and (b) politics. Galileo bought the Copernican line hook, line and sinker, and didn't care about the fact the Copernican view was demonstrably wrong. Here's a little experiment you can do, if you have enough math: compute the motions of the planets according to Copernican theory, and then compute the motions according to epicyclic (Ptolemaic) theory.
Ptolemaic theory gives far, far more accurate results.
Why? Because Copernicus thought the planets moved in perfect circles. They don't. Once Kepler came onto the scene and modified Copernican theory to be based on ellipses instead of circles, then Keplerian theory took off and displaced Ptolemaic theory. But Galileo wasn't arguing Kepler's perspective; he was arguing Copernicus'.
So, in the first place, Galileo was wrong. In the second place, Galileo had an annoying habit of mocking the Pope in print. If memory serves, Galileo took Pope Urban's well-considered objections to Copernican theory and put them in the mouth of a fictional character, "Simplicio", then spent an entire book refuting "Simplicio's" beliefs.
What does "Simplicio" mean in Italian?
Moron.
So right there were Galileo's two major goofs. One, he was wrong, and two, he called the Pope a moron in print.
Very few of Galileo's astronomical "discoveries" have stood the test of time. As it turns out, the prosecutor in Galileo's trial--a Jesuit named Scheiner, if I recall correctly--has had a much better track record.
In one of life's little ironies, everyone today knows Galileo as a brilliant astronomer, when he really wasn't. And to the extent anyone remembers Scheiner, it's always as "the guy who persecuted Galileo", not "the finest astronomer of the seventeenth century" or "the guy who established the Vatican's astronomical observatory, the world's oldest and longest-running".
I don't think there are any games that treat anaesthesiology at anything more than a superficial level, either.
Pardon the french but jesus christ I don't boot up some game just to be fucking exposed to bullshit I don't need to hear and long ago figured out was sick joke on the weak minded of the world.
Religion is nothing more than a method of control that advertises itself as otherwise and pulls it off flawlessly.
All your base are belong to Google.
The Medieval iteration of this game used religion fantastically. If your populace was too zealous, and you had an unreligious leader as a governer of their province, they would be less loyal. If you had a really zealous governer, and most people in the province were of another religion, you'd better set up missionaries. The more zeal a province had, the more troops a Jihaad or Crusade would gather during its stay in said province. Glossed over and caricatured? I think not.
A friend of mine and I, at the first Indie Game Jam (IGJ0), wrote a game in a couple of days called "Wrath".
It was bascially a two-player RTS-ish game where you had various tools that you could use to manipulate the 100,000 humans running around the board. One player played God, the other Satan. You could place attractors or repulsors, you could raise/lower terrain, you could convert them to your side (save vs damn), and you can kill them. The object is to basically convert-and-kill. Whoever ends up with more souls in their domain when the time runs out wins.
The IGJ0 page is here.
You can see a screenshot of the game in action here.
There are a lot of reasons that game developers have not pushed anything more than basic good/evil in most video games. First, most in the gaming community are agnostic/atheist. Second (and most importantly), it is very difficult to deal with such topics in a way that not make (some) people cry.
t echumen.htm
That said, there are developers out there pushing Christian themes. N'Lighting Software is one: http://www.n-lightning.com/
Predictably, their games have not exactly recieved rave reviews: http://www.game-revolution.com/games/pc/action/ca
There is also Bible Blaster, (played and probably endorsed by Rod and Todd Flanders) ^_^
Computer Games Online
This page says the artical is not from gamersdad, but from
"This article first appeared in the May 2002 issue of Computer Games Magazine." Just for your Info!
Piracy is Adam Smiths invisble hand fisting you in the ass, Mr. Gates. - MightyMartian (840721)
...because hatred for campers at the respawn points may be seen as an anti-abortion message in every FPS. ;-P
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The trick is to be open minded, yet critical. Should you dismiss everything that doesn't agree with your pre-defined (from a book?) world view? Nah. Should you believe any fool idea because it's someone's opinion? Hell no.
Example: It is MY opinion that the sky is not blue, but rather orange. Can I have this perception? sure. Does my having it make it true, or even likely? Of course not. Unless I can produce solid evidence of the orange-ness (?) then you'd be right to dismiss it.
Nonetheless, lots of people believe things that are (to me) nonsensical. I cannot comprehend how intelligent, critical people can be religious (or more correctly, STAY religious once they become educated adults), but they do.
I don't think that they are stupid to be that way, but I just don't understand it.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I know everyone will tell me that FF7 was the best Final Fantasy -- sorry, haven't finished it. The only FF game I ever finished was X, and it was well worth it. The plot is the main point of the game, and this plot revolves around religion.
Spoilers below. I suggest you go play the game first before you read this. Of course, if you play the game, you'll have to try very, very hard to miss the religion.
Your character, Tidus, starts off as a star Blitzball player. He lives in an ultramodern city, and is having a great time. For about 2 minutes before the city is destroyed and he's thrown 1000 years into the future, where technology is almost lost, and things like swords and magic are much more common.
In the future, there is a very new and strange religion called Yevon, and a huge and monstorous physical beast called Sin. As it turns out, Sin is Tidus' father, Yevon has very real implications. There are godlike Aeons who are summoned by Summoners, who become Summoners by having a very strong belief in Yevon.)
But Yevon is also mostly false -- the people's greatest hope, a way to periodically kill Sin and have a time of calm before it is reborn, all that is a lie. The act of killing Sin in the traditional Yevon way immediately creates a new Sin, and all it really does is give the common people hope.
Tidus refuses to accept this and goes on to defeat Sin, with his friends, in a different and unorthadox way, so that it won't come back.
When large portions of your world are periodically destroyed by a huge beast, you'd be terrified if you didn't have religion. And when that religion betrays you?
I have never seen, in any work of fiction, a theology created from scratch and then made so real and tangible, before it is so thoroughly destroyed. If you want more religion, you may as well go join a monastary. But don't join the Warrior Monks of Yevon...
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Pascal's Wager, as the name implies, was the idea of Blaise Pascal, who died in 1662. As with basically all philsophy that's been around for a long time, there are a million refutations for it.
The most direct one is that Pascal has over simplified. Pretending that the situation is as simple as a 2x2 matrix (or even a two dimensional matrix) is silly. You ahve to consider other possibilities such as what if god can tell the difference between real believers and fake ones? I can't just change what I believe is true like a light switch, any more than you can. So what if god is fine with disbelievers, but punishes those that pretend to believe? What if I believe in the wrong god? Maybe god is fine with those that don't believe or believe in him, but believing in the wrong god is a bad thing. What if religion is a trap, like the Apple, and BELIEVING gets your damned and disbelieving gets you saved? No one said god has to obecy the logic of man. Etc.
It's a neat excersize for first year philsophy students, but holds no weight as a serious argument. The argument against its simplicity is only one of the many out there, by the way.
Also the argument about a lot of people believing in god/an afterlife/etc is a logical fallacy. That a lot of people believe something to be true has no relivance to the actual truth of it. This is what empiricism and the scientific mentod is about. It's not a democracy where people vote for the idea the most of them like the best, it's a method for seperating truth from fiction, regardless of popular opinion.
When is the last time you saw/heard of a SERIOUSLY religious movie that wasn't rediculed to death? (I'm a Christian and I never went to see the Passion, I just didn't care for the whole 'controversy' surrounding it, Hollywood annoys me enough) The same goes for games; if a seriously religious game were made nowadays it wouldn't be accepted, regardless of what moral value it might have. Games like B&W basically are using religion as a plot device; it's not taken seriously the way that a believer in said religion would take it. And anyway, games are supposed to be ENTERTAINING, and religion rarely is, nor is it intended to be.
Yep. And if tying your shoes can't be made into a game that is believable and enjoyable, it therefore follows that you shouldn't ever tie your shoes.
You've actually managed to get right to the heart of modernism: "If it isn't entertaining, it isn't valid."
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
A religion is nothing but a product of a people and their culture. If you can't see that then don't read further and don't reply to me as I have no motivation for discussing this point.
To say that violence is a product of a religion is unfair. Being fair would be to say that a religion is the product of a violent people.
But like peoples and their cultures, religions change. A christian today is nothing at all like a christian a thousand nor two thousand years ago. Any christian from two thousand years ago wouldn't be nor consider themself to be 'saved' and therefore most evangelic christians would reason them deemed to hell. And a christian of today wouldn't even understand what christianity 'is' 2000 years ago as the entire mythology of christianity is completely different than it was.
The only true thing is that religion can be a powerful tool to manipulate the masses of ignorant people in this world. And that is why religions should have no power and should have nothing to do with the state. I consider any preacher that tells his congregation to vote a certain way (Fawell) to be far worse than the lowest fake (Benny Hinn).
A Usenet Troll Triumphs on Slashdot
Without knowing good from evil, how could Eve have known it was good to follow God's commands and evil to disobey them? In fact, she couldn't have understood why she shouldn't eat the fruit until after she ate it.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
he just blew you away, totally. utterly demolished you into atoms. your dismissing him with a 'if you really seemed interested in open, honest discussions I'd find the energy to respond' shows you are utterly unable respond.
There are multiple ways you could look at religion, and they are very different when it comes to video games, or any other medium.
One way is as an institution or culture. This is not difficult, as you are treating the religion as a behavioral entity and can easily reproduce it's symbols and customs in a video game.
Another way is to look at religion as philosophy. This is more difficult, as creating a game that encourages different scenarios based on the beliefs of the player (or at least temporary philosophy for the sake of the game).
One last way to look at religion in regards to video games is the most interesting: The video game as an aspect of the religion itself. If you only believe that religion is defined by authorities writing in books, then you won't think this makes sense. If you believe religion to be a highly personal experience that involves defining your place in the universe, then everything is religious. A video game that changes your world view or wakes you up to a more aware thought process, then it become an aspect of religion itself.
I had a friend who cried at the beauty of one of the game scenarios he experience in Alpha Centauri...
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Say, rather, that there is a greater mistake that many intelligent people make with religious choice: to create straw men, tear them to shreds, and fall back into dull agnosticism.
These examples you cite are perversions of Christianity, not the thing itself; on what basis, then, can you reject Christianity?
"... therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee..." A good deal of religion is a confrontation of death, or a working out of the problem of good and evil, or a quest for the meaning of life; it's all the same issue, however you want to put it. Christianity, at least, confronts these all head-on. Christians have to think about death, have to explain themselves, have to provide the meaning... even the meaning of the horrible events you are talking about.
But you don't. You are willing to condemn a religion for things you think might have happened ("perhaps this is legend I don't know"). Just sling the mud, then tell people to move along, nothing to see here.
Christianity is rich in culture, and history, and yes, even faith. But if you want the nickel answers, continue asking the 5 cent questions.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
>> dislike worship so much?
>What do you mean by "dislike worship"? Do you
>mean "dislike going to church"? I don't
>understand...
I don't think he meant "dislike going to church". I think he meant the way that having a higher power ruling over your life makes us all unhappy and angst-ridden. Humans have an innate desire for freedom and independance, and having anyone or anything that away, even if it's a perfectly benevolent ruler, riles up feelings of unfairness and anguish that causes us to suffer.
Living in a world with a god in it is kind of like living in your parents house...forever! Even assuming that your parents weren't abusive or anything, it just isn't possible to be happy living under someone elses roof like that. That's why we all get out as soon as we are 18 and never go back. Life just isn't worth living if somebody else has so much power over you.
Afterlife by Lucas Arts.
In this game you are in the "afterlife" business catering to all the religions of all people, on the whole earth. There is no "God" in the game, but you cater to the recently dead who think there is, in effect being whatever "God" it is that they do believe in.. or not.
Those who believe in reincarnation are a pain to deal with. You never make a dime off them, but you have to keep sending them back to Earth, which is of course not free.
"Religion is ignored in gaming, or if it is portrayed, it's wildly caricatured."
What isn't wildly caricatured about video games?
it's a servicable means to explain the moves to new players.
I usually just say "The horsey makes an L-shape".
Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling
The reason games don't have real religions modeled in them is just that it would divide their potential userbase. I really think that's all there is to it. Instead of getting people mad, since it is literally impossible to have a portrayal of religion that looks balanced and evenhanded to every potential consumer, they either make the religion realy comic-book-like and fakey, or they shift it off to something else entirely so it doesn't look like anything on earth (like the Hammerites from Thief).
Even the preachy Ultima IV mentioned in the article had to do that sort of thing - making up a new religion that is based on eight virtues, and stays well away from anything like a belief in a god. (It was a good game, although having a computer program enforce rules of morality had problems in that it only cared about the letter of the law, and not the spirit of the law. For example, you could lose an 'eigth' for lack of bravery when your main character doesn't stay behind to be the last person to leave a map in a fight. That was severly flawed when sometimes the congestion of characters on the mapboard made it necessary for you to leave with your main character first just to make the room for the rest to fit out the exit. Sometimes the computer's random placement of figures on the map made it such that your only two choices were 1 - lose the virtue of bravery because the leader is in the way and has to leave first, or 2 - reload the game.)
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
With the upcoming Doom III engine maybe someone can make a religious mod. Something like Jesus with a chaingun mowing down Pimps and Dope dealers in the Ghettos.
The problem was that the catolic church at that time had embrasedthe science of the time (greek philosophy, like it today embrases darwinisim). That was why many great minds of that time were called blasphemers. Lesson: never mix science into theology. The other way arond: well, the Bible have been proven right over the science over and over again, so... :)
Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)
I did some gaming with god... then he struck me with a bolt of lightning :(
You are absolutely right, and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I agree that the genre needs better story and plots. But the reason religion is not used has nothing to do with this at all. It's becuase it's impossible to include religion in a non-superficial way unless the game engine itself validates one view over another. Consider Ultima IV with its eight virtues. If you didn't happen to agree with the author that all eight of those were really virtuous, then playing that game can kind of piss you off - as you are required within the frame of the game to follow in that "religion" in order to get to the finish of the storyline. In effect, the game designer was the "god" of the world, and his say-so on what was and wasn't moral was the final say-so and if you don't like it then tough. (I agreed with only 7 of the 8 virtues when I played that game. One "virtue" was humility, and as someone who doesn't see hubris as a sin, this bothered me (especially since "Lord British" the game designer was himself not being the slightest bit humble in his decision to enforce his own morality system as *absolute truth* in the game - but it was just a game I said to myself, so I played with it that way anyway.)
But now if a real-world religion is used, like Christianity, then this same scenario starts treading on real nasty ground - the game engine ends up having to *enforce* the religion, and since there's a zillion different interpreations of it, this will tick off a large number of the players. (Picture if Jack Chick (http://www.chick.com/) ended up making a game that enforced HIS version of Christainity, for example.)
This is why the topic is avoided. If you try to use it your game engine itself is going to anger a lot of the players.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Well, as Nietsche said: Arguing about religion using only the Holy Bible as reference, is just learned idling...
Oh well, what the hell...
The guilt god...
Oh well, what the hell...
You say that I'm a dreamer.
I say you're a non-believer.
Since when are these two things mutually exclusive? Wishing for things, and going off on long flights of fancy in your mind does not have to require believing those things. A separation in one's mind between fantasy and reality is a good thing, but it does not have to imply that that the fantasy side of things is ignored and never played with.
(It's just that with the topic of this article, this has come to mind - there's been a lot of accusations being flung around that the non-religius are non-dreamers and that's just not true.)
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
For those of you who have never heard of it, the book (and later series) of books under the title Left Behind describes the effects upon the world after all the Christians are Raptured (when God kills off all the Christians and takes them to heaven, leaving everyone else to face Satan when he takes over). Its biggest focus is on a group of people that engage in robbery, fraud, deceit and murder, and that's just what the good guys on the side of God are doing! The bad guys are even worse.
I suspect that series might make a really interesting computer game! Especially if you got to either play one of the main characters as a good guy , as a bad guy, as Satan, or as God.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
One, he was wrong, and two, he called the Pope a moron in print.
My name is Steve Mading. I think the pope is a moron.
Now, notice the difference between today's day and age and those times. I won't be put in jail for saying that. The fact that Galelio *was* is, all by itself, plenty of reason to dislike the religious establishment of the time, and it was plenty of reason, all by itself, to side with Galelio on this.
Secondly, Copernicus's theory was mistaken because it assumed perfect circles. Thbe prevailing theory at the time was *also* mistaken because it did not use the sun as the center. Comparing the two, Copernicus's theory was NOT more wrong than the prevailing one, and in the long run it was closer to the truth. It got the precise shape of the orbits wrong, but the basic layout right, and the prevailing one didn't even do that.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
That game provided a deep spiritual experience for me, one that has endured over the 5+ years since I last played. A good friend and I were hiking once when the game came up, and he'd had a similar experience. The way Gaia is handled in Alpha Centauri is simply beautiful. I'm not surprised Sid Meier was too modest to bring it up, but I am a little surprised no one, either in the article or here in the forum, has mentioned it.
That game provided a deep spiritual experience for me, one that has endured over the 5+ years since I last played. A good friend and I were hiking once when the game came up, and he'd had a similar experience. The way Gaia is handled in Alpha Centauri is simply beautiful. I'm not surprised Sid Meier was too modest to bring it up, but I am a little surprised no one, either in the article or here in the forum, has mentioned it.
Not really. God created the possibility of us sinning, which isn't evil. We just happened to do it, and from then on, we've always wanted to do it.
It's kind of silly for a mere mortal to say that God did something wrong.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
You're subscribing to a false dichotomy, where you have to believe that either Galileo was a hero and Pope Urban was evil, or that Galileo was an idiot and Pope Urban was right. The reality is they were, both of them, idiots who didn't tolerate dissent. The only difference between Galileo and Urban was that Urban had a hell of a lot more political clout to bring to bear--and Galileo was such a loudmouth that he guaranteed that clout would be brought to bear.On the contrary. The particular flavor of Ptolemaic model used by Scheiner and others was the Tychoian-Ptolemaic model, wherein the Earth was the center of the cosmos, the Sun revolved around the Earth in an ellipse, and the planets revolved around the Sun in ellipses.
If you actually sit down and crunch the math, the Tychoian-Ptolemaic model gives completely equivalent results to the Keplerian model. The only way the Tychoian-Ptolemaic model is inferior is that it's more complex; but it yields the exact same results.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Bah, original sin is just too difficult to bother with nowadays. Everything's been done already. The other day, I threw eggs at a nun's car while riding a unicycle and smoking a joint, and my priest said even that had been done before. QED.
idiots who didn't tolerate dissent.
If I speak out against someone's position that is not identical to being intolerant of their dissent, no matter how spitefully I do so. If I shut them up with legal means, that is a case of being intolerant of dissent.
Telling someone he's being an idiot is not the same as saying he has no right to his opinion.
On the contrary. The particular flavor of Ptolemaic model used by Scheiner and others was the Tychoian-Ptolemaic model, wherein the Earth was the center of the cosmos, the Sun revolved around the Earth in an ellipse, and the planets revolved around the Sun in ellipses.
This agrees with what I said. Why did you preceed it with the phrase "on the contrary"?
The only way the Tychoian-Ptolemaic model is inferior is that it's more complex
When it comes down to it, that is typically all you have to go on when comparing scientific theories, and is precisely what makes one theory inferior to another. All theories explain everything equally if you allow their authors to add complex clauses to them to explain away the problems.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
But that's an appalling misunderstanding of the scientific method.
Keats is the one who said truth was beauty and beauty truth, and that was all we needed to know. Scientists like Keats; we think he was a Pollyanna idealist, but it's a beautiful ideal.
The true test of theory is, has been, and always will be, trifold:
- Does it explain past observations?
- Does it correctly predict future observations?
- Can it be proven false?
Copernican theory fails on point one and point two. It passes point three; you can, in fact, show Copernican theory to be wrong.Keplerian theory gets a qualified pass on all three. It explains past observations; it correctly predicted all observations of the day (later observations, like the precession of Mercury, it couldn't); and it could be proven false, as the precession of Mercury did.
Ptolemaic-Tychoian theory gets a qualified pass on all three. It explains past observations; it correctly predicted all observations of the day; and it could be proven false, as the precession of Mercury did.
The only reason to choose the Kepler model over the Ptolemaic-Tychoian model is the Keplerian model is simpler; and Occam's Razor tells us that, when faced with two equally satisfying explanations, we should choose the simpler.
Occam's Razor has never, ever said "choose the simpler explanation, even if it's barkingly wrong".
Then, when Einstein came along, he re-established the Ptolemaic-Tychoian model. What Einstein discovered, in a nutshell, is "you pay your money, you get your frame of reference, no deposit, no return." From the reference frame of the Earth, the heavens are Ptolemaic-Tychoian. From the reference frame of the Sun, the heavens are Keplerian.
I would add to the list "planescape torment" which had pretty good sophisticated philosophical reference (but no religious one per see).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
In the case of Galileo I would certainly be devout if it save my life or allow me pursue my "hobbits" without being executed by the church once I am discovered. Never heard of the process on him ? Do you really think he would not have had another outcome if Galileo had not been known to be a devout ? And since victor write hsitory, how are we to know now that it wasn't FAKE worshipping by an intelligent guy seeing where the power-that-be are ? Epure Si Mueve is all i have to say in conclusion.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
But that's an appalling misunderstanding of the scientific method.
No. Because this:
Occam's Razor has never, ever said "choose the simpler explanation, even if it's barkingly wrong".
Is an appalling misunderstanding on your part of what my post said.
I never claimed anything close to that. What I said, in exact terms, is this: All theories explain everything equally if you allow their authors to add complex clauses to them to explain away the problems.
That's a really big "if" there. I didn't include it for the heck of it. I meant it. And that's what takes away the "barkingly wrong" issue. Any theory can be "fixed up" by adding more and more complexities to it until it shores up all the problem cases. That's why Occam's Razor needs to exist - to differentiate the single simple theory which is actually consistent from the case of inserting a long list of individual exceptions used to shore up a bad theory (one which would be "barkingly wrong" if it wasn't for the long list of exceptions.)
Next time try replying to what I actually said instead of some made up strawman. I don't tolerate that kind of crap.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
This strikes me as another case of the [Christian] church re-explaining history to put themselves at the center - after all, isn't chess originally from India?
Obtopic: Isn't religion an act of faith? If a developer adds a plotline or algorithm to a game to "models" a religion, it's not really religion any more because by definition it's been made mechanistic.
Personally, I feel there's not enough Darwinian evolution in games - why don't orc shamons evolve a more dangerous AI?
Your church service, like you milage, may vary. People, religions, denominations, congregations, services -- each and all may fall in different places along their respective spectrums (or better, spectra). Not accurate to paint them all with the same wide brush. Too, a worship service's value may not necessarily rest in the excitement it delivers, although adrenaline-rush expereinces are out there, especially among the pentecostal and other evangelical congregations. Like in many a video game...seek, and you will find.
Gee, it's so tough to find a place to park around here!
The orient, anyway-- there's also some evidence China may have been a source. A website which discusses the origins can be found here, and at least sounds plausible, but whose accuracy I am unqualified to judge. However, notable (and something I remember from may days with the SCA as being accurate) is that the exact pieces, moves, and board played on have varied over the ages. The game we commonly call chess today looks notably different from the Indian original (enough to send Deep Blue into a fit if you set it up for a match), and is a composite from several influences, having changed markedly over the centuries. (There still are a lot of obscure variants out there.)
So, while you're correct that this may have been the church altering history, it may be that life imitates art. This alteration of history might be why the CURRENT European style pieces have the CURRENT moves. You'd really want to ask an expert about it-- or at least, to recommend a good book on the subject. But more likely, it's unprovable at this point.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
You also shouldn't ignore the fact that Eve was deceived by the serpent into thinking that she would gain wisdom. Nowhere does the Bible say that she actually did gain wisdom as a result of eating the apple.
Here but for a fleeting moment, I was able to capture the hand of the Devil upon Slashdot's blasphemous discussion:
http://www.keithtyler.com/gamewithgod.jpg
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Here's a really cool game based on the New Testament:
Apocamon
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Have a look at http://www.jesusfreakin.com/
Surely the Gods in nethack are used effectively, very conspicuous and in some cases necessary?
I often pray when stuck in a trap, with a cursed weapon (so no spells), sick, hallucinating and hungry at the same time. Yeah, I was pretty unlucky...
Praise Anhur!
Sinning IS evil. How many links to the concepts of Sin and Evil do you want me to produce to prove that point?
It's kind of silly for a mere mortal to say that God did something wrong.
It's kind of silly for a mere mortal to say that Vishnu/Allah/Santa Claus/Superman did something wrong.
That's effectively what I see when you write something like that. Shit's all made up. You can pretend a "God" is as smart and right as you want, but when the only representation of "His" word that we have is a horribly flawed book, it doesn't leave us much to go on but to assume that "He" or your beliefs are horribly flawed as well.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
All the myriad of Christianity sects call themsleves true Christianity, so I guess n-1/n is the percentage of them being wrong (where n is the number of sects, n -> infinite).
So frankly is quite rich that there are people out there speaking with such certainity.
Just for your information, the biggest Christian sect (the Catholic Church) recognizes the original sin on their Bible.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... people that die without a chance to be baptized and with no free will go to the purgatory, where they can be promoted to heaven if pious people pray for their souls.
OR something like that, I am a atheist raised as a catholic, so I may have some of the details worng.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You live in a parallel Universe based on faith.
Other people live here and now in a Universe best explained by reason.
Reason is telling us your faith is a sham, so what dicussion is there to be had?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Sweet! I just found the next pop-Christian bracelet idea!
The only "positive" effect it has is mind control, on those who probably deserve it for falling into it.
I'm sick of seeing it spread through the world like a virus, infecting minds and destroying it.
All your base are belong to Google.
For Christians, the world overflows with meaning. How could it be otherwise? God made it.
For Christians, the material world and the spiritual world are intertwined. Everyday things, like bread and wine (water or juice, some places), take on spiritual dimensions. Our lives are less ordinary. Who could believe this and wish to escape the world?
For some irreligious people, their reasoning goes like "we do not have to worry about this death; at least we are still alive, so we should be more concerned about our life than our death." The object of their escapism is death. But so far as I know, none has yet escaped.
They don't refuse to contemplate the possibility of death and annihilation. On the contrary, they deal with it openly and honestly.
"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." (1 Cor 15)
Even if you had "religion", a final death would be an incalculable loss.
"We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you." (2 Cor 4)
Denying the worth of the whole universe is what suicides do, not martyrs.
"Jesus replied, 'The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.'" (John 12)
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
Here's my game idea, which I now offer free to anyone (particularly Sid Meier). Call it "Religion."
Think Civilization + Populist + The Sims = Religion. You are God, singular only in the same sense that you are a country's leader in Civlization. Like in Meier's Civilization or Colonization, where you are essentially the spirit behind the government, in Religion you are that same faceless spirit. You start at the beginning of humanity, and you can set a few minor parameters of your religion. Polytheistic? Monotheistic? Atheistic? The development of your specific religion would very much reflect the tech tree in Civ. Only a few choices in the beginning of the game, each providing branches to other choices. Do you forbid the eating of meat, even though your tribe may only be able to find meat to kill? Do you prostelytize aggressively or passively? Should you order your most devoted follower to write down what you say, or should you rely on oral tradition? You could make changes to your religion's beliefs. Executed properly, minor changes would go unnoticed. Major changes might be necessary to adapt to a changing world, but if not done carefully would alienate your current followers and create a splinter religion (oh no, it's Christianity!).
The catch is that, like Populist, you could never just click on a human (unit) and move them as you do in Civ. You could tell them to, and like the Sims, the AI behind that human would choose to obey. Is the human you're ordering to kill another human a recent convert from a rival but pacifistic religion? Is she hungry, from not eating meat? Are you asking him to kill his son (aka a unit that has remained loyal to the religion for some time, perhaps). All these things would play into whether the follower actually follows your orders, or disobeys. Moreover, the disparity between the order and the willingness to follow might create more problems than it solves (oh no! Joseph Smith!)
Each choice and action would cost energy (mana), but your followers would give this to you in form of devotion. Do you, then, opt for many fellowers but low requirements, or create a cult with fewer but far more devoted people?
The challenge, like it is in Civ, would be to experiment and sandbox. Is it possible to create a monotheistic, moderate religion that doesn't require excessive devotion but do so early in humanity's development? Again, keeping with the idea that you are the spirit behind religion and not so much God, can you create Atheism? Is it possible to create a pacifistic religion early on, or an aggressive tyrannical one late in modernization? Are you content to maintain a small cult throughout world history only to create an militant apocolypse in the end?
The underlying theory behind the game would be that religion is the primary component that molds and shapes society, as Civilization presumes that government is.
The end score: how much did your religion affect the world. Did it create goverments, wars, peace?
So, what do you think Sid?
Diablo II (and maybe Diablo, I'm a bit hazy on that one) use religion as a central portion of the plot. You have to slay the Devil (Diablo), the Lord of Destruction (Baal), and their evil minions. There's the angel Tyrael and the fallen angel Izual.
The whole game is Good vs. Evil in a bibilcal manner. While you can enjoy the game without paying attention to the religious overtones, it is interesting to study them.
My lack of God, it's Trotsky!
"Take what you think makes sense and use it to benefit your life. Just ask, and we'll tell you more about anything you want to know."
I see.
Well, from what I've seen of life and reality, the people who believe in God are the kind of people you'd want to have with you in good times and bad. They're the people that feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick and help the poor.
On the other hand people like you are sarcastic asshats who I couldn't stand to be in the same room with for longer than 10 minutes. Hrm... who is the superior being?
Ahh the opposite could be easily said. Religion is a motivational device; it either makes you a better person or a worse person. You could help an unlucky man and say it's God's will to help all his 'children', or you could beat him with a stick because 'he does not walk with Allah' yadda yadda. People will use anything as an excuse. In the end each is responible for their own actions, God or no god.
That said, I'm probably a little more generous/gullible than average, but then I'm also free to chase down fake bums with a crowbar. Sure, it's not godlike to attack people, but on the other hand i'm doing the world a favor by encouraging these spoiled kids to get a job and quit panhandling while living with their parents in a $300k home. What would Jesus do ?
-Billco, Fnarg.com
it's like a telephone pole. You could kill anything with that.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
King of Dragon pass http://www.a-sharp.com/kodp/ is a game based on the imaginary world of Glorantha http://www.glorantha.com/ in which a lot of religion/religious practice is taking place: sacrifices to gods, re-enacting of myths (heroquests). Moreover it is a pretty good game, ait focuses more on story than on technical achievements, and the images (hand painted) are beautifull. It is very hard to describe this atypical game. Give it a try.
(note that I endorsing this game just because I like it, I am not related in any way to the makers
of that game)
Or, choose the Church of the Subgenius, a motocross bike for ripping around the hill, churning up turf and scaring the hell out of the other travelers!
--
make install -not war
I have faith in science - miracles every day, with the assurance that I too can perform them, if I understand its god, nature. And only one or two "axioms", articles of pure faith, to believe - simple. And rayguns!
If you are really swayed by that "I read it in a book, it must be true", you're looking for the Church of the Subgenius.
--
make install -not war