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TransGaming Tagging Downloads to Combat Piracy
SeanTobin writes "It seems that TransGaming is implementing a new watermarking system to combat piracy. For now it seems that every tgz of Cedega 4.0.1 is individually tagged, and this has been frustrating Gentoo users who (like many others) like to be sure their archives are unmodified. Is this the future of software downloads? Is this tiny loss of personal privacy worth the increase in TransGaming's security?" Update: 08/16 17:42 GMT by S : There's an official response on the TransGaming forums indicating: "We can confirm that Cedega 4.0.1 included some basic watermarking... The objective behind the watermarking was to deal with some peer-to-peer piracy issues that we've been seeing over the past several months... We have suspended the watermarking feature for now and Gentoo users no longer need to be concerned with work-arounds."
This is a real pain because it actually breaks the gentoo ebuilds!
unzip two copies, find any differences, produce a third copy with random garbage in place of whatever the watermark is.
Come on people, is it really THIS important to protect stuff?
...
Why not focus on a service-based business model, like the MMORPG setup?
One-off profits are nowhere near as lucrative as service contracts, after all.
Pshaw, software fingerprinting protection is just silly
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How would one verify that an archive is correct, or packaged from a reliable source, if the md5sum differs?
In my opinion, the cons outweight the pros for doing so.
Sunset over the lake, cool mist over the bridge; A leave upon the ripples, the snow reflects its glow.
If Microsoft or any other big company did something remotely similar to this I imagine that there would be a HUGE uproar but just because they're open source and support Linux do they get special treatment? It seems rather pointless to me considering if you really wanted the build you could just build it from CVS so if anything this is just giving them bad MSlike publicity.
I guess it can be frustrating but as a gentoo user myself I have not run into this problem I just use point2play to install new versions no big deal.
Sorry was in bad mood when made account
Don't buy it.
Microsoft did this with Windows XP beta to see what beta testers were "leaking" the information. Somebody figured it out though and testers were in an uproar shortly thereafter. Frankly, if you buy (or rent) electronic hardware from a store, the serial number is recorded on the receipt to avoid a switcheroo... this is simply an extension of that in my opinion. Not a good thing for people who misuse their licenses... but nothing major for people who follow the rules.
Another point I'd like to make. Lets say that transgaming's servers get rooted and their archives infected with some arbitrarily nasty virus. How can I trust that the file I'm getting is not infected? I'll even go one step further... How can I be sure that this has not already happened?
You can't be sure.
For now, take the
that's what i'd try to do. rpm's be damned. heh
They DO have an open cvs-server. Kindof make you think that they are not so scared about people downloading their app?
My $5x10^-2
Look at nearly every product with 'activation' or a 'cd-key' and it's been cracked. All these 'protections' do is make it easier for pirates to pirate and harder for legit users to get to work.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Pirating?
;-).
You mean like this - http://www.uic.nnov.ru/~gaav10/winex4/?
Man... is that guy gonna get screwed by TG or what
I was recently getting back into gaming and considering becoming a Transgaming subscriber again. Maybe I would have chosen not to anyway, but I'm certainly not after this. Not because it's really worse than anything any other proprietary software company would do, but because it reminds me of why I prefer free (libre) software over proprietary software.
I remember when Transgaming was going to open source everything they wrote, if only they got enough subscribers. Well that pipe dream fell through. I'll stick to free software. There's no going back on such a promise with free software.
Honestly, thats probably the most non-intrusive copy protection there could be. The problem is why did they include it without telling anyone? These people paid for it, so don't they deserve an explanation? And even more odd is that, since their "protection" scheme is now known, whats to stop, say, a pirate from altering the archive and putting it on P2P?
From Transgamers point of view... yes.. yes it is.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
But from reading the article, I don't get the impression that this is an anti-piracy effort either. Consider that the RPMs and DEBs are unaffected. Could be anti-piracy, but it could also be just a download counting system or maybe per-user customization.
Certainly, it seems clear that they're not actively tracking you and that they're not going to be able to tell if you happen to install it on your desktop and laptop. The only way you're going to get in trouble (if that is indeed their goal) is if your unaltered tgz starts appearing en masse on the p2p networks.
I don't like it so I'm not buying it.
If Linux is going to go bigtime on the desktop, you are just going to have to put up with this kind of stuff. Hell, I would bet that distributors put even more protection on commercial Linux apps/games since (pardon my generalization) Linux users are used to software being free (as in beer). Prepare for it to get worse in the coming years.
If you don't download it, you don't have any "loss" of privacy.
People throw around the idea of the loss of privacy as though they are being compelled to download whatever it is.
..but I feel their pain.
I've discussed this option before, and it's difficult to do without developing an entirely new online distribution format, however it is (in the end) an infinite uphill battle when it comes to copyprotecting non-multiplayer games. Signing a download will simply thward willy-nilly copiers. Any warez producer worth their salt will breeze by this one by either producing their own archives by simply ferreting out the watermark.
I'm not familiar with cedega, but I'm sure it's no different from any other title. If it ain't an MMO, you can't attain near-zero piracy - period.
Maybe someday, when bandwidth is free, we can write games that you simply "connect" to. It'll connect to your kb/mouse/controllers, and you'll get a video feed back, or some commands for your 3D renderer. No updates, no piracy, no privacy.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
I'm going to have to buy it now?
irc.enterthegame.com #linux
This is a great idea. Now that its tagged and *if* you share it, they'll know exactly whose sharing it and can prosecute. They make money by selling a product. When you copy it for other people.. its stealing. Sadly the RIAA was right on filing lawsuits. People who steal should be punished. ... if downloading music was because of the price, then maybe a better effort would be to mass-boycott and stop attending concerts. Oh wait! that'd be unamerican! Cuz I want it now.. and if I don't get it I steal it.
Obviously they're concerned about the amount of piracy.
For the money that they charge, you'd think that people who actually choose to use their product could bring themselves to pay for it.
I know there are a lot of people who take the 'boycott WineX' approach because they think WineX harms gaming on Linux in the long run. This post obviously has nothing to do with them, as they choose not to run it.
For those of us who choose to run it, I really can't see what the problem with paying for it is. I've paid on 3 separate occassions. On each occasion I'd paid because another game I wanted to play was now supported, and I've been satisfied each time.
So how about the leeches among us start supporting the rare breed of company that shows any interest in Linux on the desktop?
If two people are found to have the same watermark, they will both be killed .
If a person knows enough to be using Linux AND this application, chances are they can easily get around the watermark, so what's the point in it?
;)
I don't understand when companies go off on this tangent and act as if what they're doing will combat piracy. Piracy will always exist. No matter what you do, you can't get rid of it.
Yeah, it's wrong, but people will do it. Just be thankful EVERYONE isn't doing it. Bottom line: it will not bring back your "lost" sales, and people will have a workaround in a matter of hours.
There's also a reason why Microsoft more or less turns a blind eye to it - the more people who pirate a particular piece of software just means it's on that many more computers. MS would rather you have a pirated copy of Windows XP than to flat out run Linux simply because it gives them more of a place in the market.
No one likes to think on the flipside of things, so go on and mod this as troll
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
For crying out loud...
If you don't want watermarked binaries, then stop PIRATING the goddamn software.
I can't keep track of how many times I've seen an elite pIr8 on IRC claiming that they've got "0-day" WineX/Cedega binaries. TransGaming doesn't really charge that much for a subscription, and you can cancel it anytime you want (your binary still works).
I'm not surprised they implemented a watermark. TransGaming aren't the ones to blame though - blame the kids that made such a "feature" a requirement.
Geezus kids, not everything is "free".
" Come on people, is it really THIS important to protect stuff?"
..."
Obviously it's important enough that a certain group is ruining it for everyone else.
"Why not focus on a service-based business model, like the MMORPG setup?"
Why don't we stop telling others how to run their business, and learn to accept what's offered to us?
"One-off profits are nowhere near as lucrative as service contracts, after all."
That's only true for some businesses, and once again we're telling people how to run their business.
"Pshaw, software fingerprinting protection is just silly
No! Telling others that they should run their business, the way WE feel it should be run is silly.
We wouldn't like it if some stranger came along and told us how to live our lives, now would we?
And I was going to the trouble of getting out my magic marker and drawing on the download!
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Once upon a time, I was a Windows user in the habit of pirating (mainly because I was a kid with no money). Now that I've been on the Linux bandwagon for a some years, I use Free tools by default, and if there's an application that's useful and nice that costs money (VMWare, TransGaming, etc), I buy it.
I think Linux people may realize that the license is what ties us together, and that by pirating software we undermine our community as well as erode our major advantage over some of the evil closed source people.
"So how about the leeches among us start supporting the rare breed of company that shows any interest in Linux on the desktop?"
You mean like Loki?
"For each instance of pirated software I find, I shall kill you!"
(corrections appreciated)
That's not the case here. This isn't restricting use at all...just making it clear which copy goes where (if found later).
If they put in code to actively thwart copying -- and I agree it would 'make it easier for pirates to pirate and harder for legit users' to use what they bought -- I would be with you. Since that's not the case, there's no harm, no foul.
Transgaming should provide a way to verify the file, though, to protect against the case that if the file were hijacked and bad code were put in you could check the file. That it's not the same # for everyone isn't much of an issue.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
"If you don't download it, you don't have any "loss" of privacy.
People throw around the idea of the loss of privacy as though they are being compelled to download whatever it is."
Should crimminals have a right to privacy?
Ever wonder why the PC section at your local gamestore is shrinking while the game console shelves are expaning? Its easy to copy pc games but very difficult without hardware modification to pirate console games but pc games are cracked and distributed online in less time than it takes to get to the store shelves..dont believe me look how doom was available online a few days before it was released. Seriously, i love free stuff as much as the next person, but it has gone beyond casual copying into the realm of absurdly easy to distribute pirated goods quickly..(bittorent, overnet, newsgroups..take your pick).
Pc game makers have to do something to stop the bleeding since there is no inherent copy protection in the pc, mabey a small something like this watermarking could help us avoid legally mandated DRM like Microsoft wants to install in every PC. I would choose this over havinga motherboard that I have to mod to play mp3s.
huh?
How does an activation or a cd key make it easier to pirate?
It slows down piracy SLIGHTLY (but likely not sufficiently compared to the number of legitimate users that get scared off too)
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
I don't know what the problem is, Transgaming already has the best copy protection system there is. Their product sucks ass. Why the hell would anyone want to copy this steaming pile? To find out that 2% of your games work, and most of those both work poorly and already have a native linux port.
You know what, I hope this works. I hope they shut everybody who was copying the software out of the picture so that maybe, just maybe, someone else will take a stab at making linux gaming better.
If anyone's going to get my pennies it'll be icculus.
Shouldn't that be $2x10^-2?
I agree completely. More companies would turn out quality linux titles, and possibly even the first real "blockbuster linux-only title" if it were possible to stay afloat doing it. If I could I would in a heartbeat, even if I had to keep my own cost of living down to do so. My beef with die-hard linux users is that they are so into that word "free" that the only way they'd "pay" for a game is if it came with a piece of hardware!
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
"I don't understand when companies go off on this tangent and act as if what they're doing will combat piracy. Piracy will always exist. No matter what you do, you can't get rid of it.
Yeah, it's wrong, but people will do it. Just be thankful EVERYONE isn't doing it. Bottom line: it will not bring back your "lost" sales, and people will have a workaround in a matter of hours."
The same train of thought exists with murder. We've always had it. Always will have it, and there's nothing you can do about it, so stop trying.
"There's also a reason why Microsoft more or less turns a blind eye to it "
Small clue for you. Not everyone's Microsoft. The dynamics are different.
I honestly do not understand why they would want to do this. To protect against software piracy? Who would do such a thing? Surely the general population has enough respect for software developers that they would refrain from pirating software without copy protection schemes.
</sarcasm>
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
I recently ran across an encrypted p2p network called MUTE. So if someone can mask out those bits around the serial number...
:)
Hey, I'm not recommending piracy or anything here. Just pointing out the possibilities.
What happened to being able to download the source to WineX (Or Cedega) and compiling it yourself? Are TransGaming violating the GPL by not providing the source, or are they claiming that the subscription is to cover distribution costs to get around the GPL?
Or, am I completely wrong, and does Transgaming provide the source on their website, just hidden somewhere?
call me naive, but i honestly didn't realize people pirated Linux software! Cedega is only like $5/month 3-month min if i recall...thats peanuts! If i was a gamer, I would pay that in a heartbeat. I gladly pay for my copies of Slackware, and have a short list of other Linux software I would like to buy. I feel dirty buying windows software. I feel warm and fuzzy paying for linux/OSS. I guess this does mean that Linux is rapidly approacing MS in the marketplace...
once you go slack, you never go back
I'm not really sure what the point of this watermarking is. It's really not copy protection - they would need a proper activation system to enforce that. And, even apart from the huge political backlash that would entail, I can't imagine that TG would devote the technical and clerical resources required to make an activation system work. Especially since so many Linux users change distros and hardware more often than their socks. They can't be crazy enough to try activation.
So what's the point, then? Copies will still make their way through P2P. I guess they could go after people that share the file (if they're dumb enough not to wipe the watermark), but there's no way they'd do more than cancel that person's subscription. Again, apart from political issues, any legal proceedings would be ridiculously expensive for the damages involved. Are they saving dev time on support? No, not really - you have to have a subscription to access the message boards. There's IRC, I guess, but if a dev's sitting there already, that's not much of a loss.
I feel like we're missing something here. The guys at TG are clearly not dumb. They can't believe this will help them sell more copies. There's got to be more to it somewhere...
How is this a loss of privacy unless you were planning to violate the company's copyright?
Who is going to see your personally tagged tarball that you download?
OK, I see that Cedega = WineX 4.0. But what's the relation between WineX and WINE? Shouldn't there be some kind of license inheritance there? Is Cedega a non-free product derived from a free product?
And if it's not free, why is it so easy to download?
Or if it is free, why do they need to watermark it?
What gives? (Sorry; I haven't followed the whole WineX thing.)
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
But the vast majority of useful software for Linux is usually both Free and free (and is usually installed with the base OS!). This is NOT true for Windows by any stretch of the imagination (though many of the popular applications have more-or-less native Win32 ports). I also think that the software that comes with most Linux distributions is "good enough" that you don't need to seek out something else. I can't even name 10 native Linux applications that aren't free (or Free for that matter). Then again, I'm not really a big time Linux user... It's really two entirely different cultures.
since we know it's bytes 0x10-0x23 why not just write a script that 0s them out and then compare the md5sum to that? I'm sure that wouldn't be hard to add to the ebuild in gentoo.
-- Proud member of the Jello Sex Cult.
"Does it hurt the pirates? No, they are just using a burned copy anyway; they can make a burned copy as a backup. Backups don't work for me, the legal user, but they sure work well for the pirates! Gee, thanks!"
Hark! Is that the sound of another customer ruined by piracy? But it was never suppose to be this way. The companies were suppose to do everything we suggested. Be the "good little companies" we asked for. What happened? Maybe they should start paying some "insurance" "Hey that's some nice program you have there. Wouldn't want anything bad to happen to it?"
maybe this is alittle payback for all the bogus bug reports those idiots file when they use flags they cant begin to comprehend. funroll-loops.org for more gentoo amazement.
... any action that makes things more difficult / inconvenient / annoying / etc. for legitimate users of a piece of software (or anything else - like an audio CD) is an action that should not be taken.
When I am using software that I am a legitimate owner of, the last thing I want to do is jump through a million hoops just to prove I'm legit. For example, I'll be the first to admit that when I BUY a PC game, the first thing I do is go looking for a "no CD crack" to download. Why? Because I own the game and don't WANT to be forced to swap CDs all the time, just to constantly prove that I paid for the damn thing. I shouldn't have to. Honestly, it's insulting.
AFAIK, every form of copy/piracy protection that has ever existed has been cracked, and typically in a relatively short amount of time. The ones doing the pirating don't care - they have come to expect it, and finding out how to crack the software will be widely preferred to forking over the cash anyway. The crackers/warez distributors don't care either - indeed, quite the opposite, as many crackers will love the chance to be the first to crack a new protection scheme. The only ones who care are the legitimate users, because they're the ones who usually suffer.
I've been predicting this in the music industry for a long time. I'm a bit surprised it hit gaming software before music, but I guess I shouldn't have been.
:).
As far as MD5 differences go, that's easy enough:
Instead of merely watermarking a file, watermark it, generate an MD5, and generate a copy of the MD5 signed by the watermarker's public key. Zip all 3 files (foo.tgz, foo.md5, foo.md5.sig) into an archive, and make that available for 1-off downloading.
There, instant proof that the last person that's mucked with your code is the person you downloaded it from. As far as other people having mucked with it, or a download box that's been compromised, well, that is a problem.
Publishing MD5s of files that, when expanded, are watermark-free would at least narrow the scope of any undetectable damage if the download-server was compromised. Publishing these MD5s, cryptographically signed by a different key owned by the same organization and published on an independent web site, would be a big plus.
Good thing the download servers aren't Microsoft-based (are they?), with its Lower cost of 0wnership
Back to music and videos:
A watermark that's "pervasive," i.e. one that exists in every second of audio and video and across most of the pixels of any given frame, could be rigged to be harder to completely erase than the simple tgz tagging used here. It could even be done in a way that has built-in redundancies to make it easier to at least partially recover after a removal attempt. I'm surprised Hollywood and the Recording industry haven't jumped on this already. I would if I were them. This would give me, the publisher, the ability to release pay-per-download MP3s knowing I'm more likely to be able to trace bootleg copies back to the source than in today's environment. Granted, it's not perfect, and professional bootleggers will always be able to defeat whatever I throw at them given enough time, but at least it will "raise the bar" a bit in a way that won't keep honest music downloaders from making as many personal copies as they want, even if they are copies-of-copies-of-copies.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Now that its tagged and *if* you share it, they'll know exactly whose sharing it and can prosecute.
No, they can't. Just because your watermark appears on a download doesn't mean you violated copyright. For example, someone may have broken into your machine and copied the files without your knowledge.
" You people are so fucking retarded when you use your lame analogies. "
Did anyone tell you, your cute when your confused?
"Almost all of them use "murder" when it's not even remotely the same fucking thing."
Maybe because subtlety would be lost on you. When stirring something thick, you have to use a large spoon.
"Murder is equivalent to pirating software? Idiot."
I wasn't saying murder is equivalent to pirating. I was however making a commentary on his defeatist argument, that we should basically give up.
Now you can just toddle on home and tell mommy and daddy what you learned on Slashdot today.
Maybe someday, when bandwidth is free, we can write games that you simply "connect" to. It'll connect to your kb/mouse/controllers, and you'll get a video feed back, or some commands for your 3D renderer.
Won't happen. The speed of light alone will cause enough round-trip latency to kill such remote-X gaming. There needs to be at least some predictive power on the client in order to preserve the speed of cause and effect.
hmm, maybe it makes people more likely to pirate it?
Shouldn't there be some kind of license inheritance there?
As far as I know, Wine is under GNU LGPL, a weak copyleft license. There exist free software licenses with even weaker "inheritance" properties (as you put them) or "viral" properties (as Microsoft put them), such as the various permissive licenses such as those of zlib, FreeBSD, X11, and the like.
Think of it this way: they spend weeks implementing and thinking out an activation scheme only to have it completely and utterly CRACKED within hours of the product being leaked/released.
The fact is, it doesn't affect piracy one bit, but now users gotta deal with additional BS. For example, piece together a new PC and put your copy of XP on it. Now, after activation fails, try to convince Microsoft that you destroyed or got rid of the old computer!
It's not the fact that activation makes it easier, it's that the second a company boasts of having software that's uncrackable, it makes headlines and is often one of the first things to be cracked. In addition, the crack is often spread around so much to the point where it's hard NOT to find it.
All because they decided to announce to the world that their new copy-protection/activation scheme is the shit.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
"So if you download something with the reasonable expectation of a degree of anonymity, "
Um, excuse me. Isn't transgamming a subscription service? Exchange of money and information?
"Furthermore, resorting to the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" line can get a bit old after a while. What happens when all commercial software gets tagged? "
With a serial number? Besides once again with the exchange of money, there's also an exchange of information.
You seem to be under the impression that you have a degree of privacy that doesn't actually exist. No need for tags. The status quo is already here, and been so for awhile.
Yeah, and I paid for it twice! What's your point? Nearly all software products made have been pirated. People who have half a conscience will do the right thing.
"call me naive, but i honestly didn't realize people pirated Linux software! "
I will not hold it against you. Most people don't know there's a Linux Binary Warez group on Usenet.
I think it's a sad commentary on human beings, and the "community" specifically, but I'm not worried. Karma will eventually prevail.
If they lowered the price, many more would buy, many less would "pirate". This whole pirate thing is just such corporate crap. I try software, what I end up using, I eventual buy into, just like most people. If software sold for five bucks, who would bother to "pirate" it. This whole pirate thing is just marketing. They're trying to convince you that a fifty cent CD is worth fifty bucks, which it ain't. See?
Furthermore, you think some kid in Bangladesh can afford fifty US for a game? rotflmao But you watch, those companies will sell their warez anywhere, even if it means lowering the price. So really, what's it actually worth?
Simple economics of scale. They don't sell many because the price is excessive. Period.
Typical overpaid executives just shoving the blame for their greed and incompetence upon others.
Words to men, as air to birds.
To all developers and software "manufacturers": get your heads out of your behinds and smell the fresh air to get some oxygen in your brains.
The model of selling software for mass market consumption is dead. Finito, Kaputt. Only a handful of companies are making money selling software to the masses (there are many companies ut ther making money of selling niche software, but popular software is different).
Popular software will be pirated. Period. I don't like it, I don't condone it but it is like if I was a zebra complaining abut lions having a meal on my cousing or brother. It sucks but it is the way it is.
Your options? Services. Yeah, I know, the S word shows its ugly head again. Your software is just the honey to attract consumers to your real business: merchandise, community servers, new or extended features (that may your product niche or multiniche).
Or media hype (which most companies can't afford) so you generate high expectations and do your sale in the first week after release of your product. Pretty much like blockbuster moves.
Stop trying to commercialize thoughts (software is just that) and ideas. Those are too fluid to be albe ever to pin them down to commercial interests.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
One that I'm fairly certain about. It's not like everybody actually has a way to pay out. For example, just try and pay for it using a credit card issued by, say, a bank in Russia.
Or minors. Combine those two and you have a fairly large group that would be pirating winex for a reason other than not willing to pay for it.
(that said, I personally avoid both wine and winex; however, most of my friends are very happy to have them)
" I don't know if this is a troll or not but everybody has a right to privacy, at least in America. "
:)"
:)
The example that leaps to mind is sex offenders and them having to register so it's public knowledge.
"Dunno why I'm responding to an anon, but what the hell, I'm bored.
I'm bored too. How about after this is over we all go out for a beer? Your treat?
C'mon! The point's been made countless times already. READ.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I haven't thought this completely through, but something tells me there are a couple possible security problems opened up by this practice:
1) I get hold of a copy of your tarball. Maybe we're on the same system, or maybe I find it on a CD, or maybe I'm your ISP, or your proxy provider, or whoever. Now I can redistribute your file to as many people as possible, in order to get you in trouble with the company that is tracking the IDs. This must be a known issue with all watermarking schemes, I suppose.
2) If the company has to distribute a new MD5 with every file, and if I can get in the middle between their download site and the world, I can inject the ID and MD5 hash of my enemy's file into the outgoing streams. Same effect as number 1, the user pointed to by that ID gets in trouble.
I there a name for this kind of security problem? We could call it the let's-you-and-him-fight problem, maybe.
Or maybe word 3 of paragraph 2 on page 6...
They must be new in town.
Assuming they're tagging the .tgz and not actually modifying the files inside, wouldn't something like this -
../something.tgz && tar -cf ../something-fixed.tgz *
tar -zxf
Fir this 'protection'?
"When a copy protection scheme makes it desireable for legitimate users to used cracked versions of the software then there needs to be a rethink."
*thinking*thinking*
How about we put a bullet into every pirate out there? After that all the legitimate users can go back to an unencumbered version. Problem solved.
Oh no,wait! We're shooting for the "all your bases belong to us" option weren't we. I agree if we can't do anything against a problem we should just give up, and let them have their way with us (kinky).
Pirates get free stuff. We get free stuff. Companies get nothing and eventually go out of business. Then no one has anything. Brillient! I better patent it.
"Oh, bitch, bitch, bitch."
(If you don't recall the episode that came from, see this for a re-fresher!)
It wouldn't be that much harder to run a game from a network (if bandwidth is "free") then off your HDD.
You're talking about downloading the game program and assets on demand, as happens with a web page's Java or Flash applets or a GameCube game's GBA extras. Pirates would just capture the downloaded game binaries, decrypt them, and emulate a content server with the cracked binaries.
What zarthrag is talking about is something different, more like X11: "It'll connect to your kb/mouse/controllers, and you'll get a video feed back" several fractions of a second later.
The short ansewr is, Yes.
To lengthen the answer: because without revenue, the product will cease to exist.
I mean, seriously. Come off it, you wankers. "It breaks gentoo's ebuild". BFD. It's still (relatively) simple to work around. Are you that much of an automatron that you can't deal with this miniscule inconvenience?
This presents a fairly striking point about the majority of Linux/"free software" people. They're also largely proprietors of warez and other forms of copyright violation/property 'theft'. It's no small wonder why commercial products are slow to come to Linux - there's no market for them, as most would be pirated by the geeks and there'd be miniscule revenue.
Sure, there's a place and probably a market for large commercial apps, but I'm talking about smaller things (such as the transgaming stuff). There are quite a few people that truly ascribe to the "free as in freedom" philosophy on a whole. Most people just want a free ride.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
> Obviously they're concerned about the amount of piracy.
What? They are concerned about bad people boarding their ship and plundering its cargo? uh... you lose me at the term "piracy". Or perhaps you mean "copyright infringement"?
> If you don't want watermarked binaries, then stop PIRATING the goddamn software.
What? You mean to say that bad people are boarding Transgamings ships and plundering its cargo? uh... you lose me at the term "pirating". Or perhaps you meant "copyright infringement"?
" To all developers and software "manufacturers": get your heads out of your behinds and smell the fresh air to get some oxygen in your brains.
"
Oh goodie human nature comes out to play. I suppose I should care but I don't. I'll be a hermit in the hills, while you all are royally fucking up each other and the planet. Me, me, me , me. Well don't worry kiddies, everyone will get their piece of "me". It unfortunately will not be sweet, and gentle. Sour and gritty actually. Oh we'll complain about that too. Human nature and all. But when karma comes home to roost it doesn't give a damn what you like or dislike. So lets keep telling ourselves that the world works according to our rules. I'm sure sooner or later it'll start listening.
Interesting.
When I bother to login to Slashdot, I'm greeted by a custom banner at the top of every Slashdot page that usually reads "This page generated by a [insert 'witty' flock/group/gaggle of animals here] for username".
Slashdot has obviously "watermarked" the web page in the same way that TransGaming has watermarked their binaries. They've inserted a bit of identifying information that personalizes the page to my account and makes it different from a "standard" news page. If I were to save a copy of this page and give it to my friend, it would be possible to trace it back to me.
I don't see anybody complaining. Hrm. Interesting.
Of course, if I really care I can simply snip out the offending bit of text and off I go. Same thing with the TransGaming watermark.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
You must be new here.
The fact is, it doesn't affect piracy one bit, but now users gotta deal with additional BS. For example, piece together a new PC and put your copy of XP on it. Now, after activation fails, try to convince Microsoft that you destroyed or got rid of the old computer!
I have actually done this, and there is no problem at all. Ive changed my PC 5 times since I bought the XP license that requires activation, and only on the latest switch did the online activation fail. I rang a 0845 number (UK) and got hold of a very nice girl in a call center. All she asked me was if this installation was a unique install IE I hadnt installed it on other PCs. When I said yes, she reset my activations and gave me the option of activating through her or redoing the online activation, which I chose and was carried out without a problem.
Yes, anti piracy schemes get cracked, but cars also get broken into, you wouldnt see Ford selling cars without a doorlock. They are there to slow down the casual pirates, not the hardcore people.
I'm from eastern Europe and my monthly
university scholarship (biggest possible) is ~65$.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
http://craz.net/programs/watermarker.html
i know too many paranoid people (some with good reason) who will not run an app if the checksums do not match... this would throw that system for validating authenticity out the window... companies may embrace it but in the end users will vote with their feet (or mice)...
All the torrents you could want.
- Step 1: download the file.
-
Step 2: Blank out the watermark, saving it elsewhere.
-
Step 3: MD5sum the watermark-free file.
-
Step 4: Restore the watermark.
-
Step 5: Act like nothing's wrong.
<flame>I've always held that Gentoo users are like Debian users, but with less ingenuity|/usr/games/fortune
You don't have to use Cedega - if you're that keen on gaming, you probably have a Windows license kicking about somewhere anyway so just install that for gaming purposes as a dual boot.
Doom 3 is about the first game I've noticed that doesn't run on Windows 98 (at least according to the box) but apart from that, 98 is fine for the occasional gaming session - just do I like I do and do all your important stuff in Linux.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
No offense to TransGaming, but hopefully their services wont be required in the future, thus nullifying this problem, at least from TransGaming. It is my hope that gaming companies will start releaseing more and more titles that run natively on Linux as well as Windows. If this happens as it has already started, then TransGaming's product will be obsolete. PLEASE NOTE: I am not trying to knock TransGaming, I think they are a great company doing great things. I just think it is inevitable that Linux will eventually be a fully supported gaming platform by the big dogs.
Hint: AOL has chat rooms. IRC has channels.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
heh, you know what? this is off topic but what the heck, this is worth saying:
I buy slackware just because. once a year if I drop 40 US dollars down to Pat it sure beats 1000 to microsoft. he provides the source for all his work. his distro rawks bawlz in configuration and simplicity (if you are willing to learn about your system).
40 bucks a year times 1000 people, 100,000 people? he's making a killing for using/publishing open source software.
heck, i'd even donate via paypal and save him the cost of materials from whatever publisher he goes through if I had a paypal account, or even him for that matter. Hmm, now that I think about it. Postal money order to his mail addy in california.
best way to donate anonymously! Put it in Pat's name!
Slackware Linux
ATTN: Patrick Volkerding
1164 Claremont Dr
Brentwood CA 94513-2952
USA
(925) 674-9124
I might email him and ask him how i can help him with the slackware system as I know it very well, almost inside and out!
--zoloto
They're trying to convince you that a fifty cent CD is worth fifty bucks, which it ain't. See?
Funnily enough, that note in your wallet with $50 written on it isnt actually worth $50 at all either. You dont just pay for a CD when you buy a game, you are also paying for the hours of work that went into producing whats on the CD. What you are saying basically equates to thinking the $10,000 you pay for a car just goes toward the raw materials.
Reading through the post, it is surprising that, after at least 10 downloads, he (she?) never suspected that the MD5 utility being used has either become corrupt, or has been cracked, causing it to not produce correct hash output.
After the third or fouth failure, you should start considering more unlikely causes - corrupt MD5 utility, OS bugs, memory errors, etc. Any one of those could have cause the problems being described.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
No.
And make that "perceived security".
And remember kids: Never trust a computer you can actually lift.
I love transgaming, and was encouraging everyone I heard was using CVS to buy a subscription... but not anymore. I won't buy stuff from a company that would do something like this... well, the fact they did it isn't so bad, the fact they hid it is.
Jay | http://oldos.org
but cars also get broken into, you wouldnt see Ford selling cars without a doorlock
The difference is a car owner WANTS the lock to be there. I am glad to take an extra 2 seconds to get my keys out of my pocket if it helps prevent the stuff in my car from being jacked.
I don't benefit in any way from software activation or CD keys. It is nothing but a hassle when you buy the software. It's easier in many cases to install the cracked version.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
I am not sure how this could stop piracy becuase if all they are signing is the archive, couldn't someone who legally purchased a license just repack it and then redistribute it without the watermark?
>If you don't like it, don't buy!
I paid for it to test it. Then found out it didn't work for me and that the support for it is shite.
I certainly won't be giving them anymore cash.
Bioware also removed the copy-protection from the Windows version of
Neverwinter Nights, around 1.29, I think. It caused more trouble than good,
I guess.
(Can't be arsed to dig through the patchnotes)
Go to the forum,
Put forward a request for more source to be given back.
If enough people support you it should make the monthly voting list.
I think there were disputes because Transgaming wated something in return (DLL seperation was hot on the list). and they did give things like the GDI engine back.
Anyhow, I pay transgaming a very small sum (a few pints of beer) to support games on a platform that many people choose. and as for 'native versions' they games should ship with linux and windows binaries.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
a better analogy would be there being a biometric code lock in your wc door, you know, to prevent your friends from using the wc and to occasionally annoy you as well.
.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
You might benefit if the anti-piracy measures worked.
The fact is, piracy is limiting the availability of software for PCs. Business software is fairly safe - large companies will pay for licenses, and small companies / individuals make up a minor revenue stream.
But for 'home user' software, and games in particular it's real issue. It simply isn't true that 'the people who download wouldn't have bought it anyway'. I think PC gaming is basically going extinct. Why release for a platform where most people won't even pay you, when you've got platforms like Xbox and PS2 where there's little or no piracy?
I know people who make shareware tools. It's incredibly depressing to see posts in online forums like this:
"You want to get ACMEfoo! It's the best foo editor I've ever used, way better than Fooedit3 or Foomaker. The unregistered version is fully featured, but the nag gets really annoying, so you may as well download the cracked version, it's on bittorrent".
It's like "Hey! Someone really clever made some really good software that really helps me! But rather than rewarding them by registering it, or mailing them telling them how cool there software is, I'm just going to help my friends download the cracked version! Because that's the cool Free Software attitude that I love! And then I'll probably mail the author asking how to do something or complaining about a missing feature! Neat!"
-----
Those who want to use Cedega, but not pay the licensing fee, can just use the CVS tree download from the transgaming website, that comes free and no subscription required. All that is missing is the point2play system and their installer. What is to stop people packaging up the CVS version and distributing that instead?
IMHO the fact that they provide a CVS version negates the requirement to go and pirate it anyway.
Nick...
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Just curious... what are you going to do when MS drop support for XP in a few years, and that 0845 number doesn't get you an activation code? Your only option at that point is to upgrade (or crack the activation mechanism, if you have the skills to do so, although big business has now made that illegal in most first world countries). That's why I won't ever buy a piece of subscription software. I like the control of my computing environment to be in my hands, not in the hands of a corporation that doesn't have my best interests at heart.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Apparently it is watermarking...I downloaded two copies:
.tgzs of the same data would be different?
$tar xvzf cedega1.tgz
$ls
cedega1.tgz cedega2.tgz usr
$mv usr usr1
$tar xvzf cedgea2.tgz
$mv usr usr2
$ls
cedega1.tgz cedega2.tgz usr1 usr2
$diff -r usr1 usr2
$
'Nuff said. Its just a watermark, not in the actual files. If you do a:
$diff -rs usr1 usr2
it'll report that every file is identical, just to verify.
Then, make an unwatermarked version:
$mv usr1 usr
$tar czf cedega_clean.tgz usr
Sadly, if you compress the *exact* same folder twice with tar czf it will not md5sum the same (try it!). I can't say I know why. So basically, this helps with piracy but not with the verification problem. =( Don't know how to fix the ebuild problem. Anyone that knows more about why the md5sums for two
What is the purpose of MD5 ? I thought that its main purpose was to verify the file as being genuine. If vendors start employing this technique then wont we have to find another way of validating genuine files? This seems like bad practice to me, purely from a technical standpoint anyway.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Linux has games?
*snicker*
Whenever Mrs. Fitch breaks wind, we beat the dog.
As they seem to devolve, I just want to hold up my hands and give a nice golf clap to the folks that seem to do everything in their power to shove a stick up the ass of linux gaming. Thanks Guys!
Now that they don't give anything back for eon's, and tag their crap with the gayness of primate DRM, they can sit back and know that they've made life just a little bit better for.... nobody.
Not to mention the crap some people go through when they find out their CD Rom is no longer able to read the SafeDisc protection that a game has. For example, see Neverwinter Nights 1.32 patch. Bioware hated Atari for it, and you got the impression on the message board that there were a lot of bioware affiliates who were silently endorsing the idea of using Daemon Tools, or getting a noCD patch for your legit copy of the game if your CD drive didn't work.
~Will
sig?
The same goes for UT (and 2k3 or 2k4?). Epic removed the copy protection in one of the later patches. I guess they just had it to prevent casual copiers from pirating the game during the initial release and then removed it to save people the hassle. (but that's merely an uninformed guess)
once you go slack, you never go back. i pay for it for the same reason(and because i like pretty boxed software), although i have a subscription so i am roughly giving him $50 a year in two $25 chunks. I alwyas have the new versions downloaded before i get the boxed one, but i like having it, and i like giving him $$$. I believe they do have something setup with paypal where you can donate. Also, don't think that Pat is making a killing. He devotes a LOT of time to this, and rememebr that a lot of peopledo NOT buy, because they don't...which is exactly why i do. People like us are keeping him going. Remember that hes got all sorts of costs incurred, that $40,00-400,000 is not just raw profit. Theres cds, pressing, labels, postage, and a billion other costs associated with running a business...and hes not the only one working there. So kudos to Pat for keeping at it all these years, and to all the people out there hosting Slackware mirrors as well!
once you go slack, you never go back
I tried a variety of games on WineX, and the results varied. I ran Tribes 2 on it, and other than some sound glitches and slowdown, it was good... but still nothing compared to Loki's port. Then I went and installed SimCity 4 + Rush Hour. Sure, I could play it in software mode, but I have an Nvidia graphics card that I spent $120+ on, and I would LIKE to use it. About the only real success I had was on the really, really old games like SimFarm and Transport Tycoon Deluxe (with TTDPatch of course!), but even there I didn't have any luck sound. I have a collection of 200+ computer games, and nearly all of them wouldn't even install, or others like SimCity 2000 would fail to start once installed.
I didn't buy WineX because I wanted to see if it would be worth the money and I was very disappointed with the results. Some of the games actually performed better in Wine!! I would have no problem coughing up $5 a month if I could actually play MOST of my 200+ games on Linux and not 5 of them. For now, I think I'll save the money and use it on more worthwhile things.
It started back in Team Fortress Classic
Yes, anti piracy schemes get cracked, but cars also get broken into, you wouldnt see Ford selling cars without a doorlock. They are there to slow down the casual pirates, not the hardcore people.
You think Ford would bother including doorlocks any more if it only took ONE breached lock and it would start a shockwave that would open all the Ford locks in entire world in few hours?
Because that's the way it works with software.
dont have to.
I got a copy of xpkeygen.exe now I can reauthorize my copy of XP as many times as I want on my PC.
Also if you wait 120 days without any changes, your origional XP key works again.
finally, if you really want to solve your problems, get a copy of the XP pro corperate release. it does not have any of the call-home crap in it. Unfortunately it will not accept OEM key's but it does accept my XP pro boxed key. now I can change all my hardware every 30 seconds and it doesnt "invalidate" it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
when you've got platforms like Xbox and PS2 where there's little or no piracy?
Heh. Go check the newsgroups and see if you still want to assert that claim.
I would like Transgaming to rott and dissapear, if you don't, then take a look at this
Boycott now
this will not stop piracy. and every blind monkey can see it!
the "teamz" will probably register to download something as joe doe, working for l33t t34mz. and then grab themselves of the release.
But, to stop being too redundant; the real reason for this tagging, that the very same blind monkey can also see if it stop being so dumb like the general public, is that they are merely extendind the tracking of the customers itself.
It's just like the rfid tag that you're all fear so much. Why i don't see a post like "they rfided my gillet!" and them some comments like "ah, just wrap it with some metalized paper and you're done"
No. i don't see topics like the above. so why would some post like "they tagged my game" receives comments like "just build with this argument and you're done"?
let's fear this one too!
Look at it this way. You're at a supermarket. At the meat counter, there is one of those machines with tags, so they can call a number to ask the next person to come to the counter, rather than making everyone wait in line.
Do you not use this system because it's a loss in privacy? They could link the tag number with the meat you're buying! And they could link the tag number with your face! So they'd know what meat you were buying...wait...nevermind.
Unless you redistribute the Transgaming binary, the only effect of this is upon Gentoo and the MD5 hash. There are no privacy ramifications whatsoever. The MD5 problem has already been resolved in one line of code, and thus is a non-issue. As to the Gentoo problem, it could be completely resolved by making a package which executed a script to install Transgaming after verifying the non-unique bytes of the tgz.
Perhaps you might want to back up this "fact" with evidence ? Such as some examples of software that wasn't released on PC because of piracy ?
Of course. That's why there's no new games being released for PCs. None are being planned either. And there certainly is no freeware/FOSS ones either.
Slashdot confirms it - PC is dying :).
Apparently some companies think that it still makes sense to make games on PC. But what do they know :)
I must have imagined those hundreds of pirated PS2 and XBOX games on suprnova then.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I PAY for Cedega and your statment paying user is bothered total bunk. So what they tag the build that I get, how does that bother me?
treated like a soon to be criminal
Obviously it's getting out onto p2p networks somehow, if they can use this to find out if it's an external leak then more power to them.
and that legitimate uses of the software are at times prevented
I have yet to be Inconvenienced and I doubt that I will, and if something happens and I am then I can always stop paying for it.
I could go on and start ranting about how I am getting tired about the attitude by some people here that "copy protection always equals bad" but I wont, not today anyway.
500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
I am going to cancel my subscription over this. If you have a subscription and feel the same way, cancel yours. Our money talks and if their business practices go sour, it will walk.
Why bother.
Yeah, I don't even bother with activation. I have a valid CD key and all (came w/ the computer), but I just choose to install the copy of XP with the activation bypass and a keygen.
The only thing I have to do is change CD Key when I install SP1 after a format.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
If you cant verify its real, why would you trust it?
If there isnt one MD5 to check against, i would delete it. Its not worth the risk in todays digital world.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
MD5s are not supposed to guard against the package being corrupted before it reaches the developer. It is supposed to guard against the user downloading trojaned pacakges from compromised package mirrors.
"Calling it stealing makes you think and draw other similarities to normal theft which is about physical properties and then you end up all wrong in much. Trying to make some similarity to "stolen revenue" and that they lost possible income is equal wrong since none is illegal to start with, you can't steal possible revenue. By such reasoning one soon end up thinking that me, giving (or selling) an old book I no longer want is also stealing since I would in the same way take away revenue from the company. If everyone accept the "stealing" analogy and if everyone call it that way, people will also draw the conclusion that my example is also illegal since I "stole" as well."
Well since nothing else seems to work when it comes to proving the point. How about we do this. Abolish copyright completely. Let's see how "pirates" and innocents alike benefit. After all if all the arguments are true? Only good things will result from the abolishment of copyright. Any failure will mean that the "friends of pirates" are going to have to think harder about how the world actually works, instead of how they wish it would work.
This just confirms that if you have a freely available OS that it will attract a crowd who are unwilling to pay for software and would even resort to stealing it.
Seriously you thieves, pay for transgaming if you actually want to use it. (also pay for the games you run on winex). I'm starting to get tired of Linux being labeled as a "pirate's OS".
I'd rather all the pirates stole windows and ran that instead.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Actually what I am suggesting would be more along the lines of network addressable memory. Instructions would go straight from the NIC to the processor. Ultimate control.
How much cache would the CPU have to have in order not to constantly block 30ms or more on swapping through the NIC and the public Internet?
Come to your own conclusions.
debian-devel post
I'm sorry - but I've been saying this since the days of the Apple ][ (and quarter tracking, self-modifying code, etc), but all copy protection is doomed to failure because the program has to run.
If a computer can execute a program, so can a human with some basic assembly language skills. Step thru the code, find out where it's doing the check and what it expects to see, and just make it so it doesn't do that check anymore.
If there's some checksumming - fine, fix that too....
Watermarking isn't going to prevent piracy - the company doing the watermarking has absolutely NO WAY to prove that someone's copy wasn't misappropriated off of their PC via worm, virus, bad actor, mistake, etc... So it's a worthless endeavor, and all it's doing is pissing off the people that ARE paying for the games.
Companies need to determine WHY people are pirating their games, and then do the following:
1) Reduce prices - if prices are too high, people will pirate.
2) Create different levels of products. Expansion paks are great things - buy in at a low price, pay some incremental price for the exp. pack... Keep it inexpensive enough, and people will buy...
3) Provide other benefits to the people who do buy to make them buy more...
4)Accept that some amount of people will always pirate your games... Of that amount, perhaps 50% won't even play them - they collect them. The 50% that do play - well, they might turn into customers at some point, but I wouldn't worry about it. Try innovating more and better software to grow your paying customer base and work with them... Yes, this is difficult, but not unworkable.
Reading through the Gentoo forums linked to, what stands out to me is the lack of any comment from Transgaming! Has anyone seen a comment from an actual Transgaming rep on the purpose and intent of this tiny variation in the .tgz file?
its a lock to protect their IP and profits, same as anyone that OWNS anything they consider valuable.
Programmers work hard to create those applications and games. They want to earn a living selling the software. If there weren't so many thieves using computers, they wouldn't have a need to lock the product...
do you leave your home unlocked, car, locker, hotel room...
hmmm, how many slashdotters have firewalls up, use encryption, or others means of security...is it just for giggles, or is it to PROTECT their valuables...
I have no problem with this - Transgaming is very cheap and the developers listen to their users.
Let's face it, this only exists to do one thing, stop people stealing code that transgaming has had to develop and pay for. They release what code they can under the GPL but have to licence some parts, which costs money.
Some industries make an excessive profit (media for instance) and so people may have other feelings about pirating some amount of stuff, but transgaming delivers a good product, doesn't charge excesivly and doesn't deserve to have it's code ripped-off.
I play NWN on Linux, and with the native linux binaries I don't need a CD in the drive. These are the files provided by Bioware. So thanks Bioware for providing a game thats both fun and without all that copy protection
I rang a 0845 number (UK) and got hold of a very nice girl in a call center.
A girl?
You mean... reinstalling XP is a way to get to talk to a girl? And she, like, has to talk to you?
Wow. I'm gonna go download a copy of XP right now.
So, spill. What was it like? Did she sound hot? What did she say? Was it like uber-cool geek stuff or just normal chitchat? God I hope it was geek stuff. Did she ask if she could blow you?
Hi all,
0 9# 4009
I've posted an official response here:
http://transgaming.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40
Take care,
-Gav
--
Gavriel State, Co-CEO & CTO
TransGaming Technologies Inc.
gav@transgaming.com
And make that "perceived security".
Wha? I'm a little lost here. They're merely tracking downloads. I agree there's no security advantage here, but that's not what it's for. Basically if you're honest, it's no big deal (other than Gentoo not being flexible enough to ignore that portion of the archive for creating their MD5's ;).
If you turn around and post your download to Kazaa, guess what - TG now knows who downloaded that file.
I haven't seen one bit of thought in this whole thread today..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
While this is a fair point; The issue of course remains that there is no reason to use a warez version of cedega/winex when there is a free cvs version available from the transgaming website. The money you pay is mainly for the subscription, support and privilege of voting for your favorite windows game to be supported.
.exe nocd patch for your legitimate game copy, and lack of point2play is not a problem if you are confident typing cedega ./mygame.exe in bash.
...
I see no need to use a warez version unless you have difficulties in building the CVS version (which I beleive has an easy installation script). Im not sure how using a warez version harms Transgaming. The copy protect support in the binary and the point2play system are about all. Well, its easy enough to find a
What difference would it make if all those people who used a warez version used the CVS free version instead? I doubt it would be a lot. It isnt possible to have the Subscription benefits by using a warez version, If you want the benefits then you've got to pay.
However, if you want to support a Linux company
~$4.00 dollars a month is hardly going to break the bank, and lets face it we all want more quality games on Linux, time to put money where mouth is ?
Nick
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
TransGaming's official response to the watermarking is here:
2
http://transgaming.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67
Since the CEO essentially said they'd have to look at possibly making WineX less open if someone actually took them to task with their current agreement and distributed CVS in a packaged format... So it's only open as long as no one takes advantage of the current license.
Interesting.
Actually, yes it is. $60 per year makes it unaffordable to some 93% of the people on this planet. See?
Words to men, as air to birds.
Yes, I do understand. However, I feel you actually do not. Yes, there is more than just the cost of the CD, which is why I suggested $5 would be a reasonable price. In fact, I'm not suggesting the publisher should forgo profits, rather, they would generate more profits if the price was lower, but they sold many more copies. They are costing themselves sales and profits and, at the same time, denying many the opportunity to legitimately purchase their products.
As the former owner of a bookstore, I personally watched as high paid executives at publishing houses priced books so high, we actually saw a steady decline in numbers of sales. However, the high prices made it appear, at first, as if the publisher, and the store, were actually making more money. After some time however, the sales fell off to such a point that many publishers were forced to higher cheaper writers and spend less on development. As the quality of the product suffered and the prices remained high, our sales, and profits, fell even further. We discussed this with them many, many times but in the end, I watched them gut their business and mine. The last straw came when they ended up selling all their heavily discounted new and crappy titles on their website for the same prices as they would sell them to me as a retailer, thereby devastating my sales. Thanks Prentice Hall.
I'd also suggest that despite prices being the same or higher, many products, and services, are not as good as they used to be. Mass market, i.e. Que, MSP etc., computer books are a perfect example of this.
Furthermore, in the case of downloads, how much does it actually cost to serve files. Why should I pay software companies the same price I'd pay for a retail package?
Lastly, just where do you think these multimillion dollar salaries come from? Do these executives really contribute that much that they truly deserve such extremely high levels of compensation. I don't think so. In fact, I think they're taking advantage of us.
Why is it when someone shoplifts it's bad, but when someone steals the entire shop, it's ok?
Well, that's the new America, I guess. Personally, I feel like I've been sold down the river.
Words to men, as air to birds.
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Well, if we paid them fairly, they could.
Go on, buy some more overpriced goods produced by underpriced wage slaves. From my perspective, it seems obvious you don't care just so long as you're living high on the hog.
Words to men, as air to birds.
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produced by underpaid wage slaves ~ sry
Words to men, as air to birds.
About 30 second son Google shows otherwise. You can hear it from the horse's mouth: http://www.transgaming.com/sources.php. Enjoy your CVS access to the WineX codebase, under fairly non-suck license. Transgaming contributes their improvements to Wine back to the community except for the parts they are legally bound to keep proprietary.
I am not happy about this new trend of "anti-piracy" mechanisms. It really does suck, but at least let's rail them for what they're doing wrong and not for what they are doing right.
Why bother.
You haven't traveled much I assume? In most places in the world, hardware can be had at prices relative to the local economy.
Picture this, you live in a developing nation, i.e. China, India, etc. You purchase a relatively new computer by saving up one month's wages. Then you visit a US (or other first world website) and they want two months wages for a three month subscription.
How many people are going to buy in, eh?
I'm so tired of overpaid managers overlooking the fact we live in a "global" economy. If you want to sell to a local market, advertise in the local classifieds. If you put up a website, don't be surprised if someone from around the world pays you a visit.
WTF is up with first worlders, are they blind to issues like wage disparity? It's all just self-justification, from my perspective.
Words to men, as air to birds.
Besides that, cracks are so widely available that, to continue with the car examnple, it's as if you're local corner store gives away master keys for cars with each 5 cent candy.
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IMHO, you obviously didn't bother to either read or consider what I said, did you? Go on, keep on spouting those same old lame neo-con justifications, I'm sure it helps you feel real good about yourself, doesn't it?
BTW, sure, TG is free to set whatever price they like. If most people can't afford it and TG doesn't make as much as they could have, well they're free to do that as well.
In truth, you and TG's management are obviously privileged and it's often difficult for privileged people to appreciate the difficulties faced by those who aren't born into an affluent society.
Furthermore, after looking at your example, I know you can't or won't be able to understand my point, so, therefore, there really isn't any point in discussing it any further is there?
Go on, live an unexamined life, somehow I get the feeling you really couldn't handle it any other way.
BTW, I really feel for you. It's just a real shame you can't appreciate the irony of the situation.
Words to men, as air to birds.
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Sigh. More right wing rhethoric.
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If they were paid fairly, they would be able to afford to buy more things. That they can't afford to, hardly means they all must be stealing. Poverty, that's when you don't have things, it's not an indicator that someone is a thief. Oh, except, perhaps, in your mind.
Actually, this was a discussion about why people can't afford to pay, therefore they don't buy. It was never suggested that stealing was therefore justified. You are simply trying to misdirect the argument, rather than address the issue of maximizing the return on an investment by setting an effective price point.
Like so many, you simply either can't, or choose not to, deal with the actual issues that are involved here. Rather, you fall back on erroneous beliefs intended to keep you from having to critically examine your own assumptions. These are the very same assumptions you seem to need to rely on to justify your philosophy. GIGO.
By categorizing piracy as theft, you simply fail to understand the actual issues, which, once again, makes it utterly pointless discussing this any further with you. A closed mind simply cannot take part in an open discussion.
By the way, your use of insults speaks volumes about you. It's a common rhethorical device called "Ad Hominem".
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-homin
Words to men, as air to birds.
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If you strip the keychecking, it wont matter anymore who's got the machine or the key, now everyone and their friends can play that disk.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
This just comes across as another logical fallacy. I never said everyone who doesn't buy is going to "steal" anything. Most people simply do without or seek less expensive alternatives. Therefore, my points in no way validate "piracy". Also, to characterize the unlicensed use of software as piracy or theft is clearly arguable.
Again it appears that you're not addressing the actual issue which is, at what price would TG make the most ROI. Is it to keep the price high and make it difficult to circumvent the process, as they are doing with the watermarks, or, is it to lower the price and therefore increase sales?
My point is that they would generate far greater profits by lowering the price than they will ever see by pursuing a copy protection strategy. Many other companies have gone down this road only to dicover that copy protection is, in the end, both unpopular and unprofitable.
Words to men, as air to birds.
The code they forked was MIT-licenced (like BSD).
What gripes me is not that their efforts are now effectively non-Free (they have every right to do that under a MIT licence) but that they started out by promising that it would be Free and that seems to have been an empty promise. When WINE saw they, they switched from a MIT-ish licence to LGPL.
OTOH, Transgaming have apparently been contributing some code to WINE. So slowly that the WINE people gave up on the TG version of DirectX support and wrote their own.
I think it's a good illustration of how risky any shareware-like model is like - from both sides - and also of a major benefit of open source (code around the problem) and finally of the risks and benefits of BSD (we now have Cedega - at a price - which we didn't have before and which (they say) wouldn't have flown on an LGPL, but OTOH it's had a lot of the Freedom filed off).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing