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Planning Phase Complete For Indian Moon Mission
alphakappa writes "According to news reports, India's low-cost moon mission -- Chandrayan -- has completed its planning phase and will be deployed in 2007-2008 as planned. The interesting aspect is that the entire mission is expected to cost only around USD 88 million. How do you think space technology will change as a result of these low cost missions, satellites and space vehicles?"
They will outsource the whole project to themselves...
Beings aspergers AND pulling chicks... I enjoy the challenge!
$88 million is only a start. As space technology improves, expect to see greater cost savings and possibly very inexpensive space travel to anyone who wants it. But first, we need to increase reliability and speed of our current space vehicles. Otherwise, the cost savings would not be worth it.
US businesses that currently accept chip and PIN/signature
Firstly the mission is not manned. So the question of loss of life doesn't arise. Secondly, the costs are low probably for the same reasons that India can do most other tech work for lower costs (low cost of labor/manufacturing/r&d). Finally, like with any technology project, you can never be sure how much it actually costed until the project has been successfully completed. Such projects have high probability of shooting over the budget.
You don't really believe that if they would not put that money into their space program, they'd build a new university or hospital with that money, do you?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
ISRO has established space systems like the:
ISRO has also developed the satellite launch vehicles PSLV and GSLV to place these satellites in the required orbits.
Here's the complete list of ISRO's geostationary satellite system
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Why?
India was denied cryogenic engine technology(for the heavy satellites it launches(which is currently done by Ariane x) in 1992/3 by Russia because of the dual use potential.
So India started developing its own cryogenic technology. It was supposed to be ready by 1999. Now, 12 years later, it is still not completely ready. Its gotten there 60-70 % but there is still a ways to go.
Unless you see an actual launch in 2007 of this moon mission I would be skeptical.(Forget moon mission, sending a man into orbit itself will be a big deal for India, moon mission is a far off dream(pun intended.))
China took a long while to send a man into orbit. India is going to take an even longer time to achieve that. 2007 isn't even that far away when talking about time frames for space programs.
And finally, when the heck were space programs within on close to their budget? 88 million? More like 500-900 million $.
Until then its speculation, speculation and more speculation. Geddit?
Lost cost space;
Some Indian engineer will confuse grams for Tola's and the thing will auger into the moon at 68.0e4 kph.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Granted, we've made significant accomplishments in space travel since then, and the cost per shuttle mission is surely less (I seem to recall around $10 million per, but I can't find any numbers). But still... only $88 million to get to the moon? Where exactly are they going to save money?
Of course, India is a very populous nation. Perhaps they're losing money on every mission, but they're going to make it up on volume.
6 comments and already half of them are whining about why can't India spend money on education and hospitals. So the USA and Europe have no poor people, no uneducated people, no sick people who can't afford healthcare? News to me. Any number of recent stories on slashdot have talked about spinoffs from India's space programme that have helped, and are helping, the Indian people (satellite education, improved weather forecasting and cyclone alerts, remote sensing and crop monitoring, etc...) And has it occurred to you that the moon project could be a money winner in the long run, if India can do it cheaper and better than others? India is already getting a non-negligible share of the satellite launch business, as well as saving a lot of money by doing its own launches instead of depending on Ariane and others. But no, next time an India story comes, it will be another "oh look at all those poor illiterate people, why are they running a space programme" flood of comments, mainly from Americans who're hardly literate in their native language, judging by the writing samples on display.
If you have walked or driven past some of the streets of south side Chicago, you would be asking yourself the same question about a different country.
I'm not making excuses for the lack of govt focus on infrastructure, I'm just pointing out that every country has problems related to poverty, bad/old infrastructure and corruption.
Yeah, its the obvious reply, that I could not help but make.
Short term maybe, but for the long term you need more to sustain this comfort level. One way to sustain is by making sure you have a sufficient knowledge level and spread it.
(e.g. the edusat part of their space program)
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
I'll be impressed when some 3rd world country builds their first jet
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited did that some time ago.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
I fail to see how this is substantially different from the US, other than by scale. There are a lot of people living in appalling conditions in the US as well (not *quite* as many, of course). For example, the $350 billion a year of military spending might have bought the country quite a lot of educational institutions, hospitals or whatever. Instead, it's blown through the chimney in a massive dick-waving contest.
This is applicable to money spent on space, too. Or what about the military uses originally intended for the Shuttle project? Was any of the money ever put to use at all, let alone for a purpose?
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
It is a bit of international dick waving. On the other hand, with a country of over a billion people, it's like spending 8 cents per person on a huge national pride campaign. That's really cheap. The spinoffs could be huge... maybe it will inspire more people to get an education and boost India's GNP in technology-related businesses.
Besides, what was so crucial about the US's mission to the moon? Was it really crucial back then to know the composition of moon rock? Hardly. Your complaints are better aimed at the billions per month spent in Iraq rather than how a foreign nation decides to spend its money.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I think it'll get cheaper.
--
What short sigs we have -
One hundred and twenty chars!
Too short for haiku.
Or, you could try quoting my complete sentence...
"I'm not sure I'll be impressed when some 3rd world country builds their first jet either."
But yeah, I'm not impressed still, unimpressiveness confirmed.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Spacecraft have always been custom built for the task. While this may have its advantages, it also means that you are constantly reinventing the wheel - a costly and often unreliable process (Witness the Genesis and Beagle 2 probes).
I have always believed that the way to reign in costs of space missions is to use standardised components - you use the same delivery/landing system until you have something thta's proven to be better.
That means that companies can make thousands of the same components cheaper because they don't have to spend money redesigning them or resetting their production machines. The problems with each component are also well understood and can be planned for because of the extra experience with them, meaning a higher chance of success with each mission.
Still. But this 80 million dolar project will help in training Indian engineers an scientests for other future projects not to say that it will help to keep them in (and their knowlege) in India and not imigrate.
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
maybe it will inspire more people to get an education and boost India's GNP in technology-related businesses.
Inspiring people in India to get an education isn't a problem,inspiring themto want to stay in/return to India once they have that education is another matter. Unless the spin-offs include a lot of well paid high prestige jobs in India, this isn't really a factor.
This article here has a little more info about the lunar mission, and a small backgrounder on the EDUSAT, which was covered on Slashdot last week.
Well, atleast it's being used on something substantial like space travel, rather than on military funding some of the other countries.
Or, are you too blinded by your own prejudice to notice that development is development, no matter what? People need to be motivated, and this is just a means of doing it.
I guess you would rather spend it on conquering some poor nation for it's oil and natural resources, and brand it progress, rather than have a developing nation take steps to not merely enhance the quality of living of its people, but also it's science. FYI -- any progress is progress. NASA isn't going to give the blueprints of its flights to India tomorrow, and the only way that they are going to progress is to do it on their own.
Do you have any suggestions? Or would you rather suggest that until all of the billion people are given television sets and fat burgers so that they can sit on their couches, there should be no progress at all? They're trying to catch up with the rest of the world, give them a break and give credit where it's due.
Do you send a moon mission without successfully completing an manned/unmanned orbital mission around the earth itself?
I mentioned the manned mission because that was what China accomplished last year BEFORE it undertakes moon missions(manned/unmanned).
And for the costs and time frame- I stand behind my statements.
But what is the point?
Space technology is important to improve the veritable sea of people is living in appaling conditions. Going to the Moon may not have any direct impact, it will definitely payoff when the technology learnt from the exercise can be used for good.
A space program may not have that many direct benefits, but indirectly, in increasing the prestige of Indian as a nation with significant engineering and research resources, it will have huge knock on effects in terms of investments in Indian companies.
If you want to criticise projects that keep money from being used on social problems, at least focus on things that for most countries are huge drains on the economy and on foreign cash reserves, such as large weapons purchases etc. that make this moon program look like peanuts.
I think the point is that in the near future space will be controlled by the countries that got there first. And everyone else will essentially have to go through them. One day, space will be where the majority of our economies will be maintained with a large percentage of industries moving out there.
Any country that doesn't get a strong foot hold out there by themselves will have to rely heavily on those that did; and those that did, will eventually be able to tur na huge profit out of their advances.
At no point do I think the money spent now will help the current, or even the next few generations, but it will make a difference in the future.
If you believe that all the powers in space will be altruistic in the future, then maybe putting 88 million (or 500 if you look at their total space budget) into feeding everyone one will have more benifits. But then again, 500million dollers ends up being what, 50 cents per indian citizen, or maybe it could educate their citizens (though rough calculations put the percentage in the 0.00's)?
The knowledge gained from this should and will outstrip that 50c benifit in no time.
East Coast Brewers
http://www.deltawing.go.ro/iar93.htm
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
Maybe NASA needs to closely follow this development. Political consideration aside that is, if they want to consider methods for cost-effective of exploring the Final Frontier.
I mean, they've outsourced all sorts of IT and Tech-related jobs to India, why not also the various NASA Space Programs, at least the small but expensive components.
Will sys-admin for food
Or is this solely a demonstration of power? A sort of an international dick-waving contest?
[[I could be wrong about my history here, but I believe the reason the US-Soviet space race was so important was to show the other side that they could send nukes across the globe without launching a manned bomber.]]
Think about it, NASA was largely developed by Wernher von Braun. The same man who brought us the V2 rocket. It is now said he built that rocket with the ideas of someday going to the moon. Either way, it is has been said that Hitler could have ruled the world with nukes and V2s.
Point: India has nukes. If they want to hold the world hostage or become a true nuclear power they need to be able to send rockets/missles around the globe.
At first it sounded good, but now it's somewhat scary. Dirty bombs don't scare me much, ICBMs... that is another story.
Get your Unix fortune now!
1) Go to space
2) Land on the Moon
3) Go back to Earth
There, I finished planning-phase of my personal lunar-mission. Really, it's not that hard.
I wonder that is the fourth step "Profit!"?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
I guess the Moon itself only consists of the icing on the cake : India want to enter the space market and it sure will change many aspects of it once they (and they will) get to the Moon for such a low price.
Who will still go to the NASA or the ESA to send a satellite, after this ?
Trolling using another account since 2005.
With real competiot it will really get cheaper. Launch prices are so high that Ariane program got back to the funding sates more than 20 times more money that they put in. I think it is time for them to take in account new competion from sates like China, India and Brazil and to settle only for 3-4 times the money. This exagerated launch costs take a heavy toll on the satellite business and space exploration projects.
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
You could get one of the following for 88 mill:
2904 full size 4WD pickup trucks
8800-1760 houses (depending on where you live, of course)
176000 TV's
17600 snowmobiles
4400000 music CD's
3520 university educations (in the US. In some countries uni.educations is free, then the money would be used for beer.)
44 Lear Jet airplane
88088 Rubber ducks (Now on sale)
1 Bush-for-president campaign...
Nahhh...I think I still whould go for the Moon...
Well, it is a great achievement for India. It is of great Indian pride. and I fully support it. As someone pointed out, calculate the cost per person and it comes out to 8 cents per person. Thats so cheap.
Most of the responses here are "why? what's the need? first take care of poverty.... blah blah" But many people just see india as place to outsource projects. Well, this is mission is just to prove India's ability to the world what it can do even if other nations don't give some technolgy to India. It is matter of self esteem and national pride to see an indegenious mission. Also, it is not the space where only U-S-A can work. It is about equal opportunities for everyone instead of keeping power with the few.
And poverty? Do you think they are just sleeping and doing nothing? Well, eliminating poverty in country over 1 billion population is going to take time. So, why can't these two missions go hand in hand? definitely yes!
Maybe, maybe not. Consistent with the primary objective of using space technology for societal benefits, Department of Science (DOS) has implemented the satellite sytems systems that form important elements of the national infrastructure today for providing vital services in the areas of telecommunication, television broadcasting, meteorology, disaster warning and resources survey and management. The progress made in the application of space technology during the year is highlighted in the following sections. If you want to know what those application are, take a look here
Secondly, such space missions may not directly affect the country's economy or the well-being of the people directly, but the knowledge gained is then applied to other areas. Such low-cost missions also enable the country to be self reliant so that they dont have to be dependent upon fickle, external, happy-to-go-war-for-oil powers who refused India cryogenic technology for ill-founded fearsM, which incidentally, had no long-term consequences excepting for some delays in India launching its indigenous rockets.
> Or is this solely a demonstration of power?
If that's what you think. We believe it is a step towards self-reliance.
> A sort of an international dick-waving contest?
That is the most pompous, ignorant, half-assed comment as any that I've heard. So developing countries should not try to break free from the shackles of poverty, by using technology? Or do you think such technology has just one direct application and no transferable by-products? Or that such technology is the domain of only the rich? What rubbish!
> You are not grown up until you send some expensive junk to the moon or something?
Just so you dont growel in your own ignorance that this is the only Indian space programme, here is the complete list to relieve you of your pain:
- Geostationary Satellite System
- Earth Observation System
- Space Applications
There are others. But I'm too tired to respond in far more detail. Oh, and just so you understand how old Indian space programme is, have a look here> Those eighty million might have bought the country one more university or one more hospital - which, I believe, have a better chance of saving / educating a person which makes an important scientific discovery than that pile of junk has of making a good return on its moon trip
Hospitals? You gotta be out of your mind. Just google about healthcare in India and the healthcare "tourists" that India attracts every year.
Sure, despite all this, I know it's a poor land. But to trample all over it, because you have a self-formed belief that it should focus only on hospitals, is being clueless
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Hooray for 'deft' but I have been posting here for a while longer...... I've seen way to many cooler things than just another rambling on this website.
Are you seriously sugesting they should refrain from advancing themselves because the US (which is well known for sharing wit the rest of the world) has done it before?
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
India already have a significant stream of Indians moving back to the country as the number of "high paid" (by local standards) technology jobs have been rapidly increasing.
And a project like this could easily include a lot of well paid high prestige jobs - if it boosts India's reputation as a reliable partner for satellite launches, and local firms are prioritized for purchases for the project wherever possible, the return could easily be many times the investment.
This is actually a program secretly funded by the evil Indian Software companies to quickly get Indian developers flown cheap to US companies like Google setting up offshore research centers on the moon. :-P
- cnb
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
Kennedy 1962
His vision was not exclusive to the US. A national effort, borne of indigenous ability and resources, will do more for India and others like India then all the social programs and government bureaucracies you will ever imagine in your wildest nanny state dreams.
India, go forth. Take your $88 million and show us how it's done. Best wishes.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
Dude, everyone knows the moon is made of panir!
..rather interesting to see the most highly-rated comments on /. are those who deride the Indian space programme and yelp about the poverty and the living conditions, and expound the wealth of their knowledge about how this 88 mil could be used towards creating more hospitals and so on.
How many of you know about India's space programmes though?
Did you know that India has been working on space programmes since the 60's?
Or that it had a comprehensive space progamme, that included a satellite system, a remote sensing satellite system, polar satellite launch vehicle and Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle ?
Or that when United States arm-twisted Russia in April 1992 and July 1993 not to sell the cryogenic technology know-how to India.
Or that India's cryogenic engine came of age on April 18, 2001 when India bustled into the exclusive GSL club?
http://efil.blogspot.com/
So it is amoral and shortsighted to invest in developing local technology so that local industry thrive and help catch a pie of the multi-billion dollar satellite launch market by proving their capabilities, so they get foreign business, creating thousands of jobs in the process, and bringing in billions of foreign capital to grow their economy?
So it is amoral and shortsighted to invest in communications systems to help boost education levels in poor rural areas?
A space program isn't a pissing contest - all countries depend on space technology in one way or another. For a country with more than a sixth of the worlds population it would be lunacy to depend on other countries for things like military surveillance, communications, weather monitoring, etc. It would also be lunacy to let other nations cement their technical superiority and hold onto their grip on a market that is growing extremely rapidly, and will be a vital revenue source in a few decades.
And I think the hundreds of billions the US spends on maintaining a military and illegally invading other countries could be much better spent, especially in a country like the US where a lot of people don't even have access to basic modern comfort.
Is that so shocking ?. That's just the point. In the Cold War, the US of A and USSR were in an even uglier deadlock - Mutually Assured Destruction. Here at least India has a No First Use agreement .
Also there's the relgion angle .. Ever heard about Moksha ?. Think about a terrorist who believes in COMING BACK after death.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
http://efil.blogspot.com/
...international dick-waving contest...
Dick waving contests are important, primate. Whether or not nations are respected on the international stage has everything to do with technological prowess. India stands to gain a great deal of leverage when they prove they have the technical cahones to actually land something on the moon. From that moment forward, no one will be the slightest bit confused about whether or not India can put a warhead on Los Angeles or Paris; it will be perfectly crystal fucking clear they can.
When it comes time to; haggle over natural resources, decide who gets what trade deals, enforce a boundary, or do any of the multitude of things a sovereign nation must do, having a great big dick makes all the difference. I, for one, can't imagine why a nation of 800 million souls should expect less.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Yes, I can. Teflon was invented in 1938 by Roy Plunkett at DuPont, trademarked and first marketed in 1945. Google for "teflon invented".
I don't know how often I've heard the urban legend that Teflon was somehow related to space research. Doesn't make it right, though.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
I often think exactly the same thing when it's time to get up in the morning. Usually, once the day is done, the point is obvious. Hindsight is good.
Stick Men
It is completely valid to question whether this concern over how India spend it's money is because the person in question is concerned about any expensive project while people suffers, in any country, or whether it is just some misplaced idea that people only suffer in developing countries and that space programs somehow are worthless and make up a significant part of any countries expenses when fact is that no country is free of suffering, and space programs tend to be miniscule (even in the US) compared to things like military expenditure that usually gets much less heat.
Ok, then think about the money spent on exploration journies like that of Columbus. Was it worth it?
Ok, for the Inkas, it would have been better if that money hadn't been spent. But fortunately, the danger that we will kill another culture on the moon doesn't exist.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
You are very harsh in your criticism of my comments, but I can well see and understand what you are saying.
A few points: firstly, my bad for not realizing that their space program also includes satellites with concrete and very useful purposes. It's a huge semantic hole in my comment, and one that I am aware of now. Secondly, my "pompous, ignorant, half-assed" comment was, as the question mark indicated, a question. Several people besides you answered it for me adequately, and I am grateful.
However, I am still not convinced:
a) that their mission to the moon has scientific value which will justify the cost
b) that their brilliant healthcare system, which as you noted is becoming an export product, is actually benefitting the many poor people of India
and c) (which I am aware is largely irrelevant to this discussion and also makes me seem a luddite, but it is a part of what made me comment that way) - that mankind has any future away from Earth.
I am suggesting to change the project name from chandrayan to search for US flag.
By turns, I'm tired, frustrated, disgusted and amused by this argument that since India is not a "developed" nation, we should spend less (or nothing) on advanced technology and space missions. Lets consider hunger, shall we? The USA has approximately 25 million people requiring hunger relief (10% of the population?), while India has approximately 250 million (25% of the population). The USA's annual space budget is USD 12.5 billion, whereas India's is USD 500 million. So while the USA has 2.5 times less hungry people by ratio (and 10 times less by actual numbers), it spends 25 times more money than India on space research. Lets talk about uses. The moon mission is not an end in itself, and certainly its purpose is not to collect and analyze moon rocks. Think of the future. While space colonies may be far off, commercialization of space ventures (mining, materials, tourism, research) certainly isn't. Real-estate laws and rights are already under discussion and even sale. So, a mission to the moon is not so much a waste as an investment. India may be under-developed, but we know that being completely uncompetitive in major future opportunities is not exactly the way out. Besides, the space programme employs 16000 people, and provides inspiration to countless students, donors and citizens throughout the nation. I say its well worth it.
I don't want to read
Note that argument by moral equivalence is perfectly OK as long as moral equivalence is an adequate description category for the problem domain in question (i.e. the discussion is on a moral topic) and as long as participants share the same basic moral frame of reference on the subject, which is probably the case in this discussion (we both disapprove of countries wasting money needed for education of the poor etc.). For reference (note that the debate is about morality already when I make my point):
[Story] $COUNTRY is spending $MONEY on space research.
Also note that my main point is not even argument by moral equivalence, it's argument by equivalence in substance (the money is actually being spent). It certainly does have a moral implication at this point of the discussion, though.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
I guess you would rather spend it on conquering some poor nation for it's oil and natural resources, and brand it progress, rather than have a developing nation take steps to not merely enhance the quality of living of its people, but also it's science. FYI -- any progress is progress.
You guess wrong, actually, and you are trying to pin opinions on me which are not mine. Also, I disagree re: progress is progress. Things have been labelled "progress" wrongly before; hell, one could argue that the entire western world is currently not progressing, as we are wasting our limited energy resources without a clear idea of what to do when they run out. We are progressing like a hypothetical man who is trying to master chess while falling from a building - he would be better off trying to invent a parachute.
Dick waving contests are important, primate. Whether or not nations are respected on the international stage has everything to do with technological prowess. India stands to gain a great deal of leverage when they prove they have the technical cahones to actually land something on the moon. From that moment forward, no one will be the slightest bit confused about whether or not India can put a warhead on Los Angeles or Paris; it will be perfectly crystal fucking clear they can.
Political leverage, certainly - I failed to appraise it from the perspective of ol' Blicero and his toy.
I was harsh I know, because quite honestly, your comment was far one-sided, and did not seem to be based upon any facts or research.
And I find it rather difficult to understand the generally held belief that a poor country should focus only on basic necessities, healthcare, et al.
I am not trying to convince you of the benefits of the programme, but I can certainly point out few things:
Space program has always been at the heart of India's belief of a progressive nation. My earliest memories of any pride are related to, now famously covered, cryogenic technology (and the pains that India went through) to acquire it, after USA strong-armed Russia into NOT selling it to India. Read here and here for the contextual info on this.
We are a large country, both in size and population, and we have learnt the hard way that there has to be an all-round balance to achieve any growth. India invested heavily in education (you would be astonished how subsidized fees are), yet faced the biggest challenge during 80s - brain drain, losing a large majority of the workers that it invested in. Again, you can either google for "India brain drain" or read this for some info
Mission to moon, as I see it, will be a step towards self-dependence, and then revenue benefits by providing services. The current Indian president, is a rocket scientist himself, with an eye for acquiring core technologies and services (including launch vehicles) to the rest of the world (as far as I remember, one such satellite launch vehicle has already been used by Israel).
Finally, I believe you are confusing health-care with poverty. Sure we have a large pool of people living below the poverty line - people who barely feed themselves, however, public healthcare is free-for-all? Including a large number of medicines (or are subsidized when not free). However crass it sounds, there are larger figures of people dying from hunger (say during famine), than diseases
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Mars polar lander for example, including all the after costs, was only $328 million, and that was for a MARS mission, and a LANDER, not an orbiter.
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/msur98.htm
"The Mars Surveyor '98 program spacecraft development cost 193.1 million dollars. Launch costs are estimated at 91.7 million dollars and mission operations at 42.8 million dollars. "
So an $88 million estimate sounds about right.
For those who couldn't modprobe funny
paneer means..
No Sig for you.!
Well done, India, that's what I say.
I've seen a lot of the other comments, which are all along the lines of general - and stupid - derision, asking 'why, oh why'. Yes, India has many problems with poverty etc, but so has USA, Russia and China; in fact Europe are the ones that have the best record on those issues, so perhaps only Europe should ever send things into space, don't you agree?
No I think all these objections are more to do with the fact that India is not America and most Americans hate the fact that others are able to do these things and rely on themselves rather than the scraps the US allow them. There was the same sort of sentiment when the European equivalent of GPS was launched: 'Why, oh why'.
Well I'll tell you why:
1. It's not American - people in the world often prefer to do things independently of America, often because they don't trust the benevolence of America.
2. In the case of India's space program - China and India are rivals in many areas, they are both on the verge to take the place at the top economically in the world. China has put a man in space and annouced plans to put one on the moon, and India feel they have to demonstrate that they can do it too.
" Britain used WWI to do exactly the same thing"
I knew WW1 to be an evil imperialist plot created by Britain somehow, organised by the King contacting his cousins the Kaiser and the Tsar, no doubtl
http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/space/12/08/mars.revi ew/
"Combined, the 1998-99 crop of Mars missions -- Climate Orbiter, Polar Lander and Deep Space 2 -- cost about $320 million. That's about a 10th the cost of the Viking mission that successfully landed two spacecraft on the red planet in 1976."
So $83 million should be plenty to do this mission.
I'm not sure you're all that aware of the kind of country India is these days. Their education system is clearly excellent. They already have an excellent health care system (hell, they provide a large fraction of the doctors here (UK) too), a good education system and vast numbers of university graduates.
What they need to do is develop their economy, local expertise and provide jobs for all those graduates beyond call centres. A decent space programme is a good way to do that.
It is still an impressive development. However, the cryogenic engine that they are using is a Russian import. The Indians build their own fuel tank and pumping system... Quote from the article "India is using the (Russian) engine as a component in the GSLV, but without a technology transfer." "It is a technology which has never been used by India before," Narasimha (Director of Indian National Institute of Advanced Studies) said.
Would one be a hypocrite if one tells a person who just got hit by a bus to go to the hospital but not one who just got a papercut?
no.
QED.
and 40 million who don't have health insurance.
as the article said the total cost of India's space program is $500 Million while that of the USA is $12.5 Billion. If you really want India to spend less on space research why not convince the USA to give India all the knowledge gained from their research. Hey, why not make it all public knowledge accessible to all the countries in the world. As for the Moon rock does any country with a space programme really need that information
Tough talk from an Anonymous Coward,
:P
and how do you know Sanjay is from Sri Lanka I belive you might be some kind of zellot your self
I'm sure that my Indian wife would knot know or care where sanjay is from "posibaly my father-in-law might"
I'd Tell you all my secrets but I lie about my past
Lack of safety claims may be baseless. There have been deaths related to the US space mission you know. >>In India, human lives aren't considered very valuable. as opposed to USA, UK, Italy, ... which doesn't care much about middle eastern humans, oh! maybe they aren't human at all.
I wonder which countries indulged and profited by the slave trade.
>> The indians I spoke with all said the same thing, when I asked them if they weren't concerned with a nuclear war: "So they drop the bomb on us, and 50 million people die. Big deal, we're still a billion people.
could you list the demographics of the people you spoke with. You couldn't have spoken with more than 100 people so you are basing your inferences on statements heard from 1/10000000 of the population.
hey atleast you managed an insightful mod
Probably it is a me-too demonstration that India is also there. But perhaps the Indian administration sees that space will be important for the nation and its people someday. Also dont forget that space activities can motivate young persons to become engineers (engineers is what the country needs to uplift from poverty). Space motivated a lot of people in the US in the 60s to become engineers.
Two words: Call Center.
-- "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!"
First of all I love my inlaws!
/. you hyper sencitive what ever you are. I see all kinds of nasty racist things here you must go out of your AM raido mind reading this tripe.
next if you don't know what your talking about shut the fuck up aswipe!
have you ever seen greek wedding? well evverything was invented by _______ (fill in to suit your needs)
I'm suprised you are reading
Sorry if I offended you I was only gooffing hell I'm of Irish desent I get a load of jokes myself.
Heres to going to where a few men have gone before with a remote controle car
I'd Tell you all my secrets but I lie about my past
Stop linking to stupid articles to prove your point. It doesn't make a damn difference to what I stated.
Let me ask- If India's cryogenic engine technology was/is ready why the fsck does the Indian Space Research Org STILL have to rely on the Ariane rockets to take Indian satellites(INSAT series) into geo-stationary orbits during 2004,2005 AND 2006?
The INSAT satellites are too heavy even now for India's cryogenic engines. That begs the question If the INSAT satellites are too heavy, how the heck does ISRO expect to send rockets to the moon?
The cryogenic engine rockets are only capable of small loads. ISRO launched a rocket in 2002 or 2003 that carried an experimental payload. The payload was some unimportant satellite(wouldn't matter if it failed or succeeded). The rocket was sent up mainly to test the cryogenic engines. The rocket was successful but supersizing is a completely different engineering nightmare.
If the ISRO is capable of taking a rocket to the *moon*, why can't it take Indian satellites 36,000km above the earth?
Why does it have to rely on the Ariane?
In another comment in this thread I mentioned about the Chinese space program. As a first step in their space program, they sent a manned rocket around the earth. Only then are they planning further missions. This was the case with the US and Russian space programs too.
Reality speaks for itself. So RTFA.
Ok, usually, I don't feed the trolls..but I can't resist. I have to hear this one. And how is Iraq not considered a 3rd-world country? Ok I'm sure you'd agree that it falls in "developing-country" category?
My Favourite Meme
The fact that one country has more people suffering than another does not make the suffering of those affected any different.
If it is wrong for India to use money on large projects when they have people suffering, then it is also wrong for the US (or any other country).
The thing is, if you focus exclusively on addressing poverty through short term measures, your country will stagnate and fall behind and your economy will collapse, and you will end up worse off than when you started - innovative projects that push technology is a necessity. Yes, it needs to be balanced against other needs, but 88 million is hardly much considering that the US for instance spends hundreds of billions on it's military per year, and about half a billion per shuttle launch.
Firstly the mission is not manned. So the question of loss of life doesn't arise.
The rocket could fail and fall on people...
I have visited Delhi and it is extremely heart-rending to see so many people suffering from hunger, disease, crime, and violence. Compassion alone should be reason enough to spend that $80 million on feeding and clothing people, rather than a dubious space-shot. According to Vedic culture, one must do what is in harmony with Mother Nature's laws. By going against this basic truth they are only paving their own path to ruin, just as the United States is doing. Let us hope mother India will return to her peaceful and glorious ways.
And, before you mod me as flamebait
Well, at least someone listened to you and modded you Troll. Who says moderators don't read teh comments?
I have been in Bangalore since last October on assignment :p Since I have been here I have lost count of how many jets the Indian Airforce lose. IAF vs the ground seems to be a losing battle. There was some fire in the space centre too a few months ago. Track record is not to hot with the basics, so overtime and over budget :p
Just like everything else in IT. If India can get to the moon cheap, then NASA will outsource projects to INDIA.
Hmm... a Slurpee machine on a lunar mission command capsule.
The president of the country is a missile scientist and has been involved in many of the most significant adavances in the Indian missile/nuclear field. http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/kalam.html Although, in the Indian system, the president has few executive responsibilities and powers (the prime minister is the head of government), the amount of respect bestowed upon the man is a sign that scientific accomplishment is held in high regard in the country. Little wonder that this mission and other high technology endeavors do get their well deserved allotment of resources. -mp-
-mp-
But it's already been shown that there's nothing but rocks on the moon. Is there any reason to expect that something will be found that is SO valuable that it is economically feasible to transport it from the moon?
-----
Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
How to reduce the cost of a moon mission
This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message.
Yes, I have recently been reading about President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam... I'd be proud to have him as head of my state! :-) bit to reverse the flow! I'm British, not Indian, but I have experience that's in demand there. Two of my ex-colleagues have gone to California though. Loads of money... Easy decision, right? Well, not for me. :-(
The brain drain has happened everywhere. I'm actually trying to get a job in Mumbai right now... Doing my (little
I suppose that technically I would be drained away from the UK, but fuck it... There's not much left of my industry over here
In a couple of decades the world will thank such countries as India and China for their initiatives. The US hasn't got the sole right to space travel - and thank god. It's not like NASA is all that cost-efficient either. And besides, if other countries take over the role of space explorers, maybe the states can start paying off their huge debts.
Don't worry, there's no surplus of $50,000 houses here in the US. Anywhere close to a population center with a growing economy your entry level house will start at about 3 times that, and about 6 times that around larger cities. New housing is ranging from $90/sf to $200/sf in the suburbs (read: old farm land an hour from where you work), to $400+/sf for city dwellers.
Unless he was talking about mobile homes, which are poorly constructed trailers sitting on unreinforced masonry piers and anchored to the ground with 3cm wide x 1mm thk straps. You've probably seen them blowing around the fields and marshes in the recent news clips from Florida and Alabama. They start about $12,000US and peak out around $60,000US.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You are one more reason Pentagon and its cronies are able to sell the idea of Missile Shield to the american people. The threat of a dirty bomb is far more greater than that of "axis-of-evil" lobbing a few nukes your way.
Seriously, we are going back to the cold war era, when everyone lived in perpertual fear of the commies nuking the heck out of us. Later we realized that Russians love their kids too, but now we just cant be sure about the terrorists (do they have kids too?).
Soon we will start looking in fear at the shadows, look with suspicion at our fellow human beings, believe everything our Govt tells us and close our mind to everything else. I wish we cease to exist by then, it would be a shame to live on like that..
Rapid Nirvana
Ah. Let's see how many /.ers can work in infantile critiques of the war against terror into their posts.
Lord knows we don't want fewer totalitarian states. Lord knows the Twin Towers either didn't really happen or didn't happen to anyone we know, so it's okay to ignore it. Our main Marine base in Iraq sits on the site where 4 terrorist training camps were operating. Saddam used WMDs against his own people. But we need to spend the money here instead, on people who ought to know enough to take care of themselves.
If there's any argument against India's moon launch, it's that it will further enrage the demented savages in the Middle East, since it will involve an infidel country performing a feat that most Muslim states are too barbaric and and degenerate to even contemplate.
"Wow. Now THAT'S a lot of angry Indians." - Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer
I find this comment almost a troll, but probably it is just a result of emotion. Firstly, you have to define what it means to have access to something. If you mean "it's available if you choose to get it" then there is absolutely no "basic modern comfort" inaccessible here in the US. If you mean "you can get it without having to do anything for it" then yes, there are lots of things inaccessible here in the US.
I find it naive to think that it's a "right" to have basic infrastructure without contributing to the upkeep and advancment of that infrastructure. Note that I did NOT say that it's not a right to have infrastructure!!
When you have people on the poor end of society spending their meager incomes on cigarettes or alcohol or lottery tickets, which they're welcome to choose to do in a "free" nation, I don't think it's right that they complain about not having money for food, clothing, electricty, etc. Sure, you can complain about how [industry X] lied and twisted their arm into buying [product A] and now they're addicted, but there are still personal decisions that were made.
I'd rather see the general public not spend $400 million dollars to go watch a movie and use that for education, but you don't hear anyone complaining about box office returns being too high. You don't hear the public saying they refuse to pay $50+ per pro-sports ticket to support superstars' 7 or 8 digit salaries - when those hundreds of millions would be MUCH better spent on education programs to get people out of the cycle of poverty, divorce, and broken families - or just on food and housing programs. I don't think the public has a right to criticize the government for its "irresponsible" spending when in general the public is far more irresponsible...
But, that's what you get in a democracy like ours - people are free to choose to spend as they like, but then they complain when the [government] says they want to use tax money for some program because the general public isn't responsible enough to take care of [issue Q], like health care or even war.
I just don't understand how you can say something's not available when you go walk the aisles of Wal-Mart (or similar) and there's so much more crap than is necessary to live a thriving life. Some people are just not willing to seek out what help is available to get to that solvency point, and then they complain of being intruded upon when some "institution" comes and says they want to help.
Anyway, I should get off my soap-box now...
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
As I'm sure you know, we didnt go to the moon to learn about moon rock (well, some scientists were interested, I'm sure). We went to beat the Ruskies. At the time, it seemed like our national survival was at stake with us falling behind the USSR in space exploration. No one wanted to look up and see a "Red Moon" in the sky. Of course, if we had known that both countries would more or less abandon manned space exploration instead of going on to create colonys ala the fictional 2001 A Space Odysey, Space 1999, etc. it would have seemed a lot less "crucial".
Around my way € 220000 gets you something liveable.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
You might have asked how the Yugo's low cost would change the cars we drive.
Let's see if it works, first.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Disclaimer : the following anecdote was not verified by me first hand, but given what I know, it sounds very reasonable.
Circa 1978, the Morvi dam in the state of Gujarat burst. The flooding and the resultant loss of life and property was huge. The event made front-page headlines in India. One of the more curious aspects of this incident was apparently that the Indian government was clueless about the occurrence of this disaster, but the US spy satellites in orbit detected the event. The Indian government was informed by the US about the disaster.
At that time, ISRO (the Indian space agency) had been in existence for many many years - but their funding was more of an afterthought. This incident opened the eyes of many to the strategic value of a space presence. As a result, circa 1982, India put its first satellite into space.
People in the US may not appreciate the usefulness of a space presence. The following information was gleaned from a documentary funded by the UN :
India went onto launch many more satellites - a lot of of them for weather forecasting. The neighbouring country of Bangladesh is located in the delta of two major rivers. Flooding is a perpetual annual problem. Subsequent to the Indian weather satellites being available, the UN sponsored the use of the weather forecasting data that was available to provide an early warning system for flooding due to cyclones (known as hurricanes in the US). The first year this was done, the loss of life was 150,000. The previous year it had been 300,000. And no, I am not making these numbers up.
There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.
You can get as many fscking breaks as you like, as soon as you crawl into the hole that you were spewed out from.
/., there are invariably a few twats who believe in "yelling-till-blue-in-face" to prove their argument.
/. a better place for others
Ever heard of a Satellite lauch vehicle? Or heard that several satellites of comparable payloads were placed in orbit by indigenous launch vehicles?
For every reasonable discussion I have on
Troll along.. make
http://efil.blogspot.com/
That 88 million dollars will spawn an entire space industry creating thousands and thousands of jobs in a ripple effect. Sure it costs money to build a space rocket, but that money goes to Indian industry and people.
Sure, a hospital would be useful in a lot of places, but then if the Govt. spent all its money building hospitals for the huge population, who would educate them? Let's say there was enough money to both build hospitals and educate them, but then where would these educated people work? That's why India needs the space industry. Any kind of industry is good, actually.
It's not the federal gov't's job to spend money on entitlement programs or education. It is their job to spend money on defense. One might argue those would be the job of the state or local gov'ts.
I'd also argue the invasion of Iraq doesn't approach the definition of illegal, since there were resolutions and treaties dating from 1991 that called for military action if they were broken, and they were.
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
>> How do you think space technology will change as a result of these low cost missions, satellites and space vehicles? I think my position is best expressed by: "It's raining '53 DeSotos."
Astro
Just what the tired and hungry space traveler needs...
LUNA QUICKIE MARTS!
[Apu]
Are you going to pay for that?
[/Apu]
Forget the moon. You could get over 12,000,000 music CDs if you picked from the bargain bin.
They have to figure out how to make an closed environment that can sustain three adults eating chichen vindaloo for 10 days.
JP.
--- Worst tagline ever.
First of all, you Americans need to stop thinking that you can solve the world's problems. You have been told this for decades, but you apparently haven't got it yet. I'm not going to bore you with your own history, but I will point to the marvellous job you did with Iraq.
Secondly, it has become very clear that the majority of you think of India in a very one-dimensional way. e.g. Everyone in India is uneducated and living on dirt farms without modern conveniences. I would like to point out that the Indian state of Kerala was the first in the world to achieve complete 100% literacy, a feat that no state of America or Western state (to my knowledge) has been able to accomplish. India has a wealth of educational opportunities and very few Indians do not take advantage of this. I have been to many cities in the US, and I must say that my own home city of Cochin has much better living conditions overall than most of what I saw.
Also, many states of Southern India are more heavily wired than most states of the US. I know of very few people who do not own a mobile. In addition, you can't drive half a kilometer on NH-47 (a National Highway) without passing by at least three internet stations.
For the longest time you have believed you are the only ones "allowed" to have technology and this is very untrue. India has problems, I agree, but claiming that every penny needs to be spent on "hospitals" and "schools" makes absolutely no sense. Obviously you do not know how your own country came up to its level and the role technology and the space program played in it.
The bottom line is you don't understand India or any other nation, and you never will. Don't think you can solve our problems, at least until you've fixed your own.
Also, on a side note, please stop whining about losing your jobs to us (while sitting fat on your couch sucking disability money). This problem is entirely your own.
For India, $88 million is high cost. India has many hungry, suffering kids. $88 million could feed a lot of kids.
That Indians would waste $88 million on a space adventure while Indian kids are malnourished speaks volumes about the inferiority of Indian culture. Consider also the skewed ratio of male babies to female babies in India. In 1998, the ratio was 1.11. It has risen to 1.20 in 2004. The normal ratio is 1.05, which is exhibited by Western nations like Japan, Canada, the USA, etc.
Also remember all those nice things which came out the space program ?. Like pacemakers or kevlar ? . See now India has to develop SuperComputers big enough to compute the path to moon ... Like the Space Race of the 60's , this too is a war fought in peaceful result-oriented fashion than a traditional military escalation. But India's still sending a clear message - We have the technology.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Anybody remember the slogan of the "New NASA" just a few years ago? Faster, Cheaper, Better. Then one faster, cheaper rover was lost, and they more or less scraped it, at least in PR. I think it's still a good idea, but the thing that is really going to drive down costs is private enterprise, not government funding.
A good parallel is Columbus, who had funding issues with his government. He finally secured it, but it wasn't until business figured out ways to make money off of it that trips to the New Land were in reach of the average Joe. (Granted one of those money making schemes was immoral- let's not kidnap Africans to harvest moon rocks this time.)
Point being: it's great that governments kick-start exploration, and even better when they do it on the cheap, but they should do it as a means to an end, promoting commercial exploration.
Boo hoo, tell them to get a job and not feed off of society. The reason GPL software works so well is because people are forced to give back under certain circumstances, the same should apply here.
Regards,
Steve
All these whiny messages miss an important point.
It's not as if India is sending a piece of metal worth $80MM to the Moon. The actual cost of the hardware is a minute part of that. In the meantime, building that hardware is:
1. providing local employment that otherwise might not have been provided, thus reducing poverty.
2. providing demand for local business and engineering
3. gaining engineering skill and experience, something that will be very useful for gaining inward investment from other nations
There's no point having universities if the people educated there just bugger off to the United States because there's no future for educated people at home. Projects such as this provide employment in the short term and in the long term they provide technical expertise that can be used to further business. It is arguable the long term effects of performing this mission in terms of what Indian engineers and scientists will learn is better than spending the money on a new university whose graduates will just leave India to work abroad because of a lack of opportunities like this one.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You must be kidding. Either you are either stupid or you just didn't pay attention to what this guy said so you would have an excuse to expouse your political views for no real reason (thinking that anybody really cares).
Honestly, do you think people with money can't get things they want in India? lol
Oh, and I do bitch about the costs of movies and sporting events.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
I agree! In India's case, why are they not spending the USD 88 million on providing infrastructure needed to produce more food to feed their population? Going to the moon is great and all, but when you have hunger and sanitation issues that are a daily problem in many parts of India, I think this kind of money could be better spent.
And just to make things clear: my gripe is with the submitter of the article (and the way they portrayed the costs) not with the Indian lunar mission.
12 million music CD's .. I would NOT want to rip that many .. :-)
Last I checked, most big budget movies run into the $100 million range. If the Indians can put a man on the moon for less than it cost to make Spielberg's last flick, then I'm seriously impressed.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
well back to free as in "free beer" then :-)
Should'nt they be fighting over slaves, and rushing to dig gold, and claim land, like US did, 50 years after the independnce?
Well, for what it's worth, here's the opinion of one westerner (a citizen of Finland, to be exact):
If you can reach for space, Moon and the stars beyond, then by all means do so. Maybe, just maybe, it will wake our own leaders and masses up, and make us reach for them too. And even if it doesn't, it's still better that someone reaches them than that no one will, even if that someone is not from my country.
Yes, and - everyone pay attention, this is the important part - such things need structures, structures need building materials, and the Moon is much better place to get those materials, because
First, build a base station to Moon (not neccessary manned, but it helps a lot). Then, build a magnetic catapult and a mine next to the station. Then, use the base station to refine the mined ore into metals and forge the metals into space station part. Launch the station parts to lunar orbit. Assemble the station. Man your new station (it can be large enough to have artificial gravity from rotation) and use the base station to supply it with stuff (grow plants under domes for food). Add industrial modules to the station, manufacture more complex parts, and send them to the Earth orbit. Assemble a huge spacestation around Earth (a space harbor). Manufacture zero-g products in that station, drop them to Earth in capsules and sell for huge profits. License whatever craft won the X-Prize, and use a trailing hook or whatever to snap it from the boundary of space, to create a cheap 2-way shipping line from surface to orbit. Make more profits from space tourism. Build mining ships and send them to asteroid belt to mine asteroids for all the rare minerals you could ever want. Refit the hollowed-out asteroids into space habitats. And keep on profiting.
Summary: Building a permanent base on the Moon is absolutely vital for any attempt to really open up space, since it makes building orbital facilities and large interplanetary spaceships practical by making getting the building material to it's destination cheap. And to establish a Moon base, you first need to be able to reach the Moon.
So could we all please stop with the "there's more important things to spend this on" comments ?
There is not a single person who can claim legitimate ownership on any piece of any celestial body besides Earth. This will no doubt change once space really opens up; but for now, those selling such property are simply committing a fraud, selling something they have no claim on. And, of course, the ownership purchased from such people is completely worthless.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
It's their money, they can do whatever they want with it. Who are you to say otherwise?
In any event India is a Third World shithole with a society completely centered on an appalling caste system not much better than outright slavery for the vast majority of the population. One more hospital isn't going to change this fact, nor do anything to alter a society whose very foundation is based on overwhelming oppression of the masses.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
apu contacted for hazardous mission.
all pork rinds 20% off.
If America can't or won't return to space and progress to the best of our abilities, then another country must. We will never know what we could learn, what greatbenefits could be derrived from new strides in technology, unless we make the attempt. The nations that do venture further into the frontier of space will progress and evolve while those that do not, either out of fear or lack of ambition, will not. Even those nations that try, and fail will have learned much that they could apply to more attempts.
Yes it will be costly, in terms of time, resources, money, and lives no frontier is ever cheap. However, hoarding money and resources because explorig a frontier could be dangerous is nothing but stagnation.
I believe that's enough rambling from me. Feel free to ignore me now.
Since there's about 1.1 billion indians, they could easily get to the moon about 6 times if they just stood on each others heads.. Pretty low cost! :)
The India I see is not the middle class Kerala where everyone wears full sleeves and wants a white collar job.
Oh, yeahI wonder why you don't see that unlike half the eastern world, we are NOT FIGHTING you ?.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Allegedly real newspaper headline from 1998:
Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
we have some obsolete french stuff thats being phased out thats causing the crashes ...
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-18-04.asp
General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.
When is everyone finally going to figure out that India did not field the Su 30 MKI in Cope Thunder , they were the Su 30 K's/MK1's .
The Su 30 MKI has more design and performance characteristics similar to the Su 37 while not exactly the same and will be comparable to the F 22
I would believe the point is to explore the moon further, and to develop their technology.
but my job has never been outsourced... its more likely yours has. I dont program, i pay peopel to do that.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Or if landing is required, Moonshot 7? NASA grumbling: "So we showed them how to do it, and now our mission went to India."
I couldn't help but notice the two kind of replies on this thread. one - surprise and anger ( probably culmination of pentup anger over loss of high-tech and low-tech jobs to India). two - genuine concern and apprehension why India would use money for this purpose when there several poor to be fed and taken care off.
addressing the first case - India has a good space program since 60. ISRO maynot have the kind of money NASA but it has a good ROI. US has denied india in past access to technology and going to the level of presurising other countries to do the same. The reasons, I think were basically comercial .
Examples:
1. India built and sells PARAM supercomputer for quarter the price of equivalent crays after US denied India super computers. only a handfull of countries can boast of this.
2. India is building cryogenic engines for launching spacecraft after US forced Russia not to sell them to India out of fear that NASA will lose the market for lauching commerical spacecraft to a new cheaper compititor.
3. India last elections were held completely electronic. these electronic voting machines were built for a few millions dollars and used successfully. US is still struggling to introduce electronic voting technology mainly because the technology is too fancy (read more profits for corporates ) and hence many problems. India used the KISS concept and built it with simple s/w burnt on microprccessors. there was a good article in MSNBC abt it sometime back... try a google search on it.
4. the big hoopla abt bad s/w being written in India as a result of outsourcing....wonder why companies like google still have offices in india ?
5. India conducted nuclear tests in may 99 after figuring out the orbiting spy crafts trajectories and moving men and equipment almost 1000 miles to the remote desert test site when the spy craft were not watching. the result - nobody in the world knew abt the test till the India PM announced it.
6. have you heard of health tourism ? if not check it out .
I can go on....
So bottam line- people in other countries can do things better and cheaper than in US. Not in all cases but where ever they choose to and have some funding.
Now to address the other case -
many spacecraft have been launched to help telecomunication access to remote regions, spread long distance education (television based classes ), weather and other uses. you can take those millions of dollars and feed people but how long can you do it ? how will you come up with the money to feed again and again ? only by providing people with access to technology and jobs. how will u get access to technology ? the cheapest way is to come up with the technology.
Do you know how many satellites they have launched since inception?
As for that,their space program is a roaring success already....ISRO is not some low quality manufacturing company and infact carry many satellites for other countries who cannot launch it on their own. Hav a look at their milestones : http://www.isro.org/mileston.htm
India belongs to a elite club of six [US, Russia, China, Japan and the European Space Agency are the others] - who control a lucrative satellite launch market.
Cribbling about India takes you Nowhere.
for eg: If all they did was spend on food and left out education ,computers etc....
then they wouldnt have become a software powerhouse.
More importantly,more such jobs means more money for the country.
Where did I say that I wanted India to spend it's entire GDP on food? My comment was that USD 88 million may be better spent (IMO) on developing infrastructure to help feed the population. Your point on not spending money on eduaction, computers etc is a valid point. Obviously people are employed to make this moon venture a reality, and, the money they make will help stimulate the local economy. What I'm saying is that I think the USD 88 million could be better spent.
..settle out of ~25000 RIAA lawsuits of various sizes!
Like the Chinese, they could get there just by standing on each others shoulders...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
If there's any argument against India's moon launch, it's that it will further enrage the demented savages in the Middle East, since it will involve an infidel country performing a feat that most Muslim states are too barbaric and and degenerate to even contemplate.
Perhaps so. However, I don't believe the alternative, abandoning the goal out of fear, is a good option to take. I'm fully in support of a war against terror -- I just think that the current actions in Iraq may not be the most effective theater in which to stage that war. Now, before I go and stick my foot into my mouth (again?), I'll leave it at that since my knowledge of the subject is incomplete.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
It's a very simple matter of basic capitalism. A space mission is an investment. It has some possible return. Feeding the poor is not. It has no return. At the same time, the population will keep growing, so there will be more poor to feed. Spending all your resources on things that have no return is an absolutely losing battle. You'll never get ahead that way.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Well, right now, our $350bn a year aren't doing very much good at fighting terrorism. $2bn for a B-2 bombers does jack-shit against some guy with a bomb on his back. Increased ilitary spending to counter terrorism might make sense, but first I want to see some clearly outdated projects phased out and replaced with ones that can really combat modern threats.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
That's just the point! India is so overcrowded that they're looking for somewhere to dump all the extra people.
It seems that most of the rest of the world is unwilling to take them, unless they're educated. In that case, they can be our doctors and computer techs!
HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
Stop saying 88 millions are spent. IT IS AN INVESTMENT that almost for sure WILL PAY OFF.
:-/
Remember that space-research result in many kinds of knowledge because so many different problems must be solved. Some of that knowlegde turns into products that aren't used in space. Those products are sold for profit. The rest you can figure out for yourself!
And I haven't even mentioned the motivation effect in the Indian population...
I bet I could find many examples from NASA, but I'm too tired...
Maybe the point is the same one that the U.S. and U.S.S.R. pursued: Being able to loft nuclear warheads over very long distances. Remember that India is in the nuclear club.
If many countries suddenly decide to start sending cheap space vehicles to the Moon, there will be a lot more debris from the inevitably high failure rate of the missions. That said, the actual number of successes would like ly dwarf the number of successful US moon landings and colonization and possible control of the Moon would likely not end up in US hands. Maybe the US will get in on this soon enough to keep that from happening though.
Let's play video games with mailmanZERO
The economy is not a zero-sum game.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
This could be viewed as an inexpensive advertising campain that lets the world know they have the ingenuity and technoligy to inovate and compete. It opens the doors up for even more wealth in the future.
I would agree with you but, the modern threats are the threats you not cpable of dealing with. What i mean is, We can defend ourselve form almost any invasion. We might even be able to crush them in thier own country. We havn't concentrated on "some guy with a bomb on his back" becuase that guy wasn't really organized. Once he was organized, they found the way to efectivly attack us was thru our weak points (ie:'some guy with a bomb on his back') If we let go of the other defenses to combat this one then we are only setting ourselves up to go at it again.
Now i'm all for modernizing and imporving what we have so we can phaze the older not so cost efect measure out. I just don't think we should let our guard down in the proccess. We should only get rid of the B2 if we had a back up that was as effective. Well you get the drift.
Look at it as an investment into thier future. Once they do it or even come close, there will be opertunities to generate revenue for the country they don't have. Thats what our space prgram did for us.
I see what your saying but i think we need to be carefull as to not wantthem to get off the begging role because we might loos our job of being the compasionate country stepping in to help out. I'v long thought that this was our biggest problem with welfare and the way it is distributed in the US. Once a person gets a job and tryes to make an effort, they are often cut off and in a worse position the when on welfare. It would almost apear like the administrations didn't want to end the welfare roles for fear of looding thier jobs. Maybe i'm just imagineing things.
The fact that people are thinking it will make them capable should point somethign out to you. Think of it not as a "we need to waist money campain" But as an advertiesing campain to inform the companies or whatever source of revenue generation that india is capable. Basicaly alot of people is underestimating the technological capabitlies of india and this will let them know different.
It's worth noting that, at this point, Chicago's infamous South Side has improved in many ways. The best place to go for poverty and violence these days would be the Austin neighborhood, on the west side.
I joked about Canada and got modded as a troll. Now if I made comments about dot heads, pakis, and people who use towels for headgear, I'd have gotten modded insightful.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I'd also argue the invasion of Iraq doesn't approach the definition of illegal, since there were resolutions and treaties dating from 1991 that called for military action if they were broken, and they were
Why wasn't it an issue in '94, or '95, or '96, or '97, or '98, or '99, or '00, or '01?
This business about putting the entire world on notice so that we have justification to invade at will is a complete farce. Yes, we did have treaties with Iraq, but if there were any legitimate need to invade based on the provisions of those treaties we would have done so long ago. The timing alone gives away the thinly veiled illegitimacy.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
On the other hand, no, the $88million wasn't the government's money to begin with, it was the people's money that the government took. In a democracy the government claims they're taking the people's money to do something better than the people would have done with it on their own, but it's still the people's money. In a feudal society or theocracy or some other kinds of governmental structure, the money actually _may_ be the government's (that doesn't mean that it wasn't taken by force, but it was done as a personal action by the rulers and their henchpersons, so it's really their money for whatever they feel like spending it on.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The argument that the space race or various military arms race programs were worthwhile because they brought us all these cool non-space spinoff things like communications satellites, velcro, and Tang is bogus. Yes, those things were potentially valuable, but they not only diverted money from the applications that the private sector could have used for other applications, they diverted a lot of really talented engineers and scientists from working on private-sector applications. What kinds of things would they have built if they hadn't been making rockets? Would they have improved the energy efficiency of cars, airplanes, and houses by 10%? Would they have built the Franistan that would have revolutionized the industry? (You've never seen or used a franistan, but that's because the team that would have invented it were improving military helicopter gunnery systems instead.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks