Intel Helping Asia to Use Linux

sameerdesai writes "Seattletimes is carying this story on Intel helping major countries like China and India to help build Linux machines as an alternative to Microsoft Windows. It definitely looks like both Microsoft and Intel are using the big potential market in Asia to establish a foothold. Microsoft is using its scare tactics to warn of possible lawsuits because Linux violates about 228 patents. What do fellow slashdotters think on trends of OS and hardware in Asia will be?"

Comments

Whoa there.

[shamilton]

Linux SUPPOSEDLY violates 228 patents. According to Microsoft. Talk about ass-backwards wording.

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

insidious isn't it. Its easy to see how less informed individuals would believe Microsoft's propaganda.

Re:Whoa there.

[gilesjuk]

What does this figure actually refer to though? the kernel? KDE, X, Gnome?

If it's just the kernel then why hasn't any action been brought? simply because the kernel team have no money to syphon off, companies like SCO would rather sue their competitors to hamper their business.

Currently Microsoft has more cases against them about patents and other alleged violations than any of the open source community.

Re:Whoa there.

[Amiga Lover]

Microsoft is using its scare tactics to warn of possible lawsuits because Linux violates about 228 patents.

Not only that, it's an outright lie. There are 220 something patents that apply to IP within Linux.

Many of those patents are already owned by Linux companies.

Saying Linux violates all those 228 patents is like saying MS Windows violates a thousands patents belonging to Microsoft. It's word play with an agenda.

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

funny how microsoft claim that linux has violated patents when it was microsoft in the beginning who ripped off ideas from unix and xerox

Re:Whoa there.

[pedantic bore]

Let's face it; Linux probably violates some patents. It's hard to imagine how it couldn't -- patent-grubbing companies patent every imaginable little thing. I am probably violating a patent right now by using both hands to type on a keyboard connected by a computer.

The usual defense against patents is to obtain patents of your own, and everyone agrees not to sue each other ad infinitum (usually). Linux hasn't gone this way -- although it does get some protection, of course, from interested corporate sponsors like IBM. Linux's primary defense to date has been the lack of a defining central entity to sue. This is a different tactic -- not going after the linux providers, but simply pointing out that running linux may be legally questionable in some contexts. If MS claims 228 patent violations, they get 228 tries to make their claim stick -- and just one could be enough to be a real problem.

Re:Whoa there.

[aussie_a]

If it's just the kernel then why hasn't any action been brought? simply because the kernel team have no money to syphon off, companies like SCO would rather sue their competitors to hamper their business.

Also, from my understanding, the second a patent is used in court that patent may be revoked. In all probability Linux violates 150 issued patents. But we all know how ridiculous patents are so it's probably 150 -bad- patents that shouldn't have been issued in the first place.

Comapnies holding the patents can't go after the kernel team because the community would chip in to help, as I doubt the kernel team could withstand a challenge on their own. With Linux being so important to Open Source, I can see many companies helping out, and possibly using their own patents to counter-sue.

Re:Whoa there.

[weighn]

yeah, who is this samzenpus and sameerdesai anyway? The article premise sounds ok, but how did that get posted?

Re:Whoa there.

[gilesjuk]

Well it sounds like this is an empty threat from Microsoft. IBM would have quite a lot of patents to use against Microsoft.

The areas i'd consider dubious in the kernel tend to be Microsoft related, SMBFS, NTFS, VFAT. So mostly it's file systems.

Re:Whoa there.

[DenDave]

"The usual defense against patents is to obtain patents of your own"

Actually this MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction)approach will not work. What does work is jurisprudence. Lets see some action in front of judges. That is the proof of the pudding (and grease for the Groklaw fires... ;) )

The question you gotta ask yourself (and the MS gorillas when they come a pounding threatening lawsuits) is why doesn't MS throw it's weight into the courtroom for all of their so-called infringed patents? Simply because they know it would be a bluf call and that the vast majority of US patents wouldn't hold up in front of any semi-literate judge.

Patents and intellectual property are important. It is a pity that they are so abused, in the long run it will cause more harm than good.

"Linux's primary defense to date has been the lack of a defining central entity to sue."

I disagree, all the coders (kernel) are known. All the commercially available products are with registered companies. If I sell you a linux system, you can sue me. Go ahead, make my day punk (and our lawyers... they will love it!).

So in the final analysis I think it fair to say that MS is simply stalling the impending demise of the OS business untill they can come up with another money maker scheme to fill the billion $ + gap they see coming. I think it is a tough call for them and I suspect their moves to dominate mail, messenging and entertainement markets are the direct consequence of this insight.

Run billy, run ...

Re:Whoa there.

[laughingcoyote]

While I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy, it was my understanding that Microsoft purchased Xerox's patent, that does not constitute a "ripoff"...

Re:Whoa there.

[MouseR]

Well according to Blamer, it was MORE than 228.

Meaning either 229, or 228 for wich they have half of a case for and any number for wich they're trying to "prove".

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's word play with an agenda.

Word(C)(R)(TM) is our copyright. We will see you in court.

For your agenda, may we suggest Outlook(C)(R)(TM)?

Microsoft.

Re:Whoa there.

[pedantic bore]

I disagree, all the coders (kernel) are known. All the commercially available products are with registered companies. If I sell you a linux system, you can sue me.

You did not understand what I wrote. There is no central defining entity. Sue the developers, and the code is still unencumbered. Sue the distributors, run them all out of business, or just buy them out -- and the code is still free. Nobody owns linux and nobody can stop its distribution. The only hope that someone like MS has is to make it illegal to run it.

Re:Whoa there.

[Tim C]

You can't copyright the name of a product, and it's either (R) or (TM), not both.
</mode>

Re:Whoa there.

[Bastard of Subhumani]

I am probably violating a patent right now by using both hands to type on a keyboard connected by a computer.

Since most people connect the keyboard to a computer, I think you're in the clear. IANAL, YMMV, void where prohibited and all that.

Re:Whoa there.

[frankvl]

American patents don't have any meaning in the rest of the world anyway...

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple got it from Xerox, Microsoft then was inspired to make something similar.

Re:Whoa there.

[SpaceLifeForm]

Well, to be accurate, MS is referring to an OSRM report. But even so, there is no proof at this time that any problems really exist, and therefore one should be careful when commenting on said report which was twisted into FUD by an abusive monopoly, otherwise you may actually be contributing to the FUD yourself.

From the article linked to:

"Microsoft is up to its usual FUD [fear, uncertainty and doubt]," said Dan Ravicher, author of the study Microsoft cites, who is an attorney and executive director of PUBPAT (the Public Patent Foundation).

"Open source faces no more, if not less, legal risk than proprietary software. The market needs to understand that the study Microsoft is citing actually proves the opposite of what they claim it does."

Re:Whoa there.

[DenDave]

I did understand. I just simply disagree. Is there a central defining entity for web browsers? Sure you could bug W3C or even IETF but would that change anything? Dragging MS (IE) to court or the folks at Mozilla.org or even Opera.com might change something though... I agree wholeheartedly with you on the "The only hope that someone like MS has is to make it illegal to run it. " so perhaps we argue the same point from a different perspective, I argue from a product liability perspective and not so much from a property perspective, again, you can claim me if I sell you encumbered products, hence I become your "central entity" for that particular matter.

Re:Whoa there.

[fymidos]

>Linux probably violates some patents ...
>If MS claims 228 patent violations, they get 228 tries

No, that is not accurate, a few of these 228 patents are owned by MS, maybe 20 , i don't remember the actuall number.

However, even if 2 or 3 or even 10 of them actually qualify as valid patents in the court *and* linux actually *does* violate them, the relevant code/functionality will simply be removed from the kernel ( or some linux distributions might pay a reasonable fee -decided by the court- to MS, and maybe still use them as external modules or something.).

This is no "real problem" for linux, linux will always be here.

BTW, linux developers and companies can also start patenting things anytime they want. If things ever get really ugly that is.

Re:Whoa there.

[fymidos]

however, only a small portion of them are actually owned by MS. Actually, the biggest part of those 228+ patents belong to (who would guess?) ... IBM.

Re:Whoa there.

[Clete2]

I'm sure we violate patent #230932450982376903467234968723498372498, which is probably the letter 'Q' on the keyboard. No more 'Q' for us, don't even say it once, fellow Linux users.

Re:Whoa there.

[spectre_240sx]

I think you'd see a lot of private help as well. I know I'd be willing to donate some money to that cause.

Re:Whoa there.

[Mysticalfruit]

Firstly, those would be American patents I'm pretty sure. Which, since their going to be using the product in their country doesn't really apply.

Secondly, China and India have a long standing and storied history of ignoring patents all together.

So, ultimately Microsoft is just tooting its own horn.

Re:Whoa there.

[gnarlin]

Please, please, please ... stop! The term "intellectual property" is not just stupid, it is harmfully misleading. Don't use it. Please do speak of: Copyright Patents Trademarks Trade secrets etc. Please be specific about these issues. If we use these vague fake terms like these then we corrupt the usefulness of what we are saying. Sorry for being a nag, but this IS important!

Re:Whoa there.

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Microsoft is also embroiled in a bunch of patent lawsuits of their own. Pretty much all companies have lawyers on staff to deal with their perpetual patent issues. When Microsoft says that Linux has some patent issues, they are really saying that Linux is big enough and important enough to have the same kinds of business issues that large companies have.

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look man, the Chinese are communists and they love Linux so therefore all linux users are communists. Microsoft is the answer to this communist problem, and real Americans don't believe in communism. Screw the poor! Only the rich deserve the best things in life. Got it?

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Would say:
"So, ultimately Microsoft is just tooting its own longhorn."

Re:Whoa there.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean you will donate a free ipod to the cause!?

Re:Whoa there.

[f3773t]

So in the final analysis I think it fair to say that MS is simply stalling the impending demise of the OS business untill they can come up with another money maker scheme to fill the billion $ + gap they see coming.
Well, technically that is what should happen. But history has shown that it isn't always the technically superior solution that wins out but the one with the best marketing firepower ... unfortunately. Now Open Source and M$ stand locked in a stalemate ... who will win I wonder?

Re:Whoa there.

[satans_advocate]

Knowledge property.
Knowledge monopoly.
Knowledge use rights.
Invention rights.
Innovation rights.
Invention use rights.
Invention monopoly.

????

Re:Whoa there.

[Gopal.V]

>Secondly, China and India have a long standing and storied history of ignoring patents all together.

They don't ignore patents, they just run their countries on their own laws (perfectly normal soverign country behaviour..). I have been reading up on India's patent policy recently and it looks very nicely written. Read an extract from chapter 2.

1.3.8 Computer Programs
1. Computer program is not patentable invention as computer program is
a set of instructions for controlling a sequence of operations of a dataprocessing
system. It closely resembles a mathematical method .It
may be expressed in various forms eg. A series of verbal statements, a
flow chart, an algorithm, or other coded form and may be presented in
a format suitable for direct entry into a particular computer, or may
require transcription into a different format (or computer &#147;language&#148;). It
may merely be written on paper or recorded on some machine-
readable medium such as magnetic tape or disc or optically scanned
record, or it may be permanently recorded in a control store forming
part of a computer. Thus it is evident that a program may be presented
in terms of either software or firmware.

2. Since the claims may be couched in terms which tend to obscure the
fact that the invention relates to a computer program, it is always
essential to analyse them, in the light of what is described and of the
prior art, in order to identify the contribution to the art and hence
determine whether this advance resides in, or necessarily includes,
technological features, or is solely intellectual in its content. For
example, if the new feature comprises a set of instructions (program),
which may be formulated and presented in any one of a variety of
ways, designed to control a known computer to cause it to perform
desired operations, the computer being suitable for the purpose
without special adoption or modification of its hardware or organization
then, no matter whether claimed as &#147;a computer arranged to operate
etc&#148; or as &#147;a method of operating a computer etc&#148; .Such a subject
matter is not Patentable and hence excluded from patentability . The
invention here relates solely to the novel program. The claim might eg
stipulate that the instructions were encoded in a particular way on a
particular known medium but this would not affect the issue. If however
the format of the program, or the nature of the record medium (tape,
disc etc.) necessitated some non-standard adaptation to the computer
itself (this factor being integral to the invention and not an arbitrary
unrelated addition) then the exclusion would not apply. Likewise an
invention which related to a particular manner of organizing the overall
operation of the Central Processing Unit and the peripheral units,
regardless of whether the invention were implemented by means of a
program or special hardware facilities, would not be excluded.

3. If the implementation of a new program requires internal modification
to a computer of such a nature that it may reasonably be regarded as a
new computer then clearly a claim to this computer is not excluded,
even though at first sight the invention may seem to relate merely to a
program and the purpose of modifying the computer is subsidiary to
this. The modification must however be inventive itself; if a computer is
modified in a manner which is the obvious way of implementing the
program, then the inventive contribution will still reside solely in the
program itself.

4. As a general rule a novel solution to a problem relating to the internal
operations of a computer, although it may comprise a program or subroutine,
will also necessarily involve technological features of the
computer hardware or the manner in whi

Re:Whoa there.

[EvilJoker]

That's not entirely accurate- while U.S. patents are not enforced globally (yet), any company that does business within the U.S. will have to abide by them, or at least not get caught violating them.
It's similar to the EC persuing the Microsoft antitrust case- while Microsoft isn't based in Europe, they do business there. To continue doing business there, they must follow the rules of the land.

Re:Whoa there.

[Mysticalfruit]

Actually I wasn't thinking of computer programs.

I was thinking of pharmaceutical companies who spend billions of dollars doing the R&D, animal trials, human trials, etc. on some drug that does treats "X"*.

Then a company in India gets their hands on a sample of the drug and floods the market with a generic versions of it.

* - doesn't include such things as AIDS, since I feel that AIDS should be one of those things that everybody should just share their research openly.

Replace your pirated linux with pirated windows...

[Thaidog]

...So you can replace it with genuine pirated windows straight from Microsoft or well sue! We mean it!!!

Patent violations

[Lurker McLurker]

Microsoft is using its scare tactics to warn of possible lawsuits because Linux violates about 228 patents.

No, it doesn't. There are areas identified as being possible grounds for a dispute about patents, just as there is in any other piece of software with a large enough amount of code. But Linux has not been shown to violate any patents.

Re:Patent violations

[Ubi_NL]

Besides that:
these are AMERICAN patents.
such patents can only be enforced in the US.
AFAIK asia does not even recognise software patents, let alone american ones

Re:Patent violations

[Filik]

And even if Linux did violate any patents (extremely hypotethical), these violations would be in US, not in China! US patents aren't even valid in Europe, much less China!

Re:Patent violations

[willCode4Beer.com]

Reagrdless, these are countries that show little concern for patents, licenses, or copyrights.

Do you think a guy who is using a priated version of windows really care if linux might have patent issues.

Re:Patent violations

[Tim C]

such patents can only be enforced in the US. ...which kills development on the project in the US, quite possibly killing the project outright at least until someone in another country picks it up. It'll also potentially decimate any support for the project. Both of those things would change it from something you *could* support yourself, to something you *must* support yourself; that threat alone may be enough to scare businesses away.

Re:Patent violations

[Deliveranc3]

Actually Asia does aknowledge the patents, they just don't adhere to them or enforce them.

Products from Asia are usually legally liscenced for distribution in the states.

Re:Patent violations

[Ralpht]

Not only that but a patent actually has to be an "Original work", that is not likely to have been easily created/thought of etc by your peers. IE: If any software/hardware engineer is capable of designing it, then in theory it is not patentable, it won't be "Original" enough. Patents are normally granted without vigourous checking and it might take a few years before the patent office decides that it is not original enough / good enough to deserve a patent. I would have thought software is better off with copywrite not a patent !! Any comments?

FUD

[xstonedogx]

Microsoft is using its scare tactics to warn of possible lawsuits because Linux violates about 228 patents...

...And also submitting stories to slashdot under the name "sameerdesai".

Re:FUD

[ggvaidya]

ad hom, mate. also Sameer has a better record than you do. I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but ad homs are icky.

Re:FUD

[BrokenHalo]

Err... while I agree that ad hominem arguments are egregious, I dispute your statistics. From here, I see two parties with a fairly equally insignificant contribution to the Slashdot community. Furthermore, Sameerdesai, in his most recent 24 posts has scored 23 positive karma points and 3 negative, while xstonedogx scores 18 positive and zero negative.

Re:FUD

[sameerdesai]

LOL ... I just quoted the article!! I prefer Linux over Windows any time of the year or day. In fact I have been trying to pursuade my company to write an application they just wrote in .NET for Windows to write for Linux platform.

Intel's motivation?

[rackrent]

While it's true that many of the "tech support" jobs that have been outsourced to Asia have been windows-specific, it may well be the case that Intel is focusing more on its potential for servers which are not, or should not (generally) be Microsoft based. so they may seem more willing to work with hardware issues and opening up a broader market for increasing their presence on *nix based servers? Just a thought.

Re:Intel's motivation?

[davejenkins]

I would put forth that Intel sees India and China as its major growth markets-- and they will do what they can to lower price points in order to move chips out the door. It could be that simple: remove the MS tax, and you lower the price point, which should increase volume.

China and India combine for 1/3 the Earth's population-- a population that is not saturated with machines (like the US and EU), but is just entering its wild growth phase in IT. This means demand for servers/notebooks/routers/cell phones will be double-digits for the next 15 years.

Re:Intel's motivation?

[Anonymous Coward]

MS dropped the Itanium. This turned Intel's billion doallar project to saw dust, unles, Linux runs on it.

Business is business.

Re:Intel's motivation?

[Tim C]

I have a question - how much does (say) RHEL cost, compared to the "MS tax"? For business use, real support (not googling for HOWTOs and emailing questions to developer lists) tends to be pretty important, which would mean paying for your distro, not just downloading it...

Not trolling, genuine question - how much does RHEL or similar cost, compared with Windows?

As for your idea, of course that's the case. Intel is in the business of selling hardware, not software, and so will support/recommend whatever they think is most advantagrous to them. People here seem to tend to forget that about companies like Intel, IBM, etc. They're not in it for the good of open source, they're in it for their own good. Call it enlightened self-interest if you like, but they support/push Linux because it suits them to, not because it suits us. Not that that's a bad thing; everyone's gotta earn a living.

Re:Intel's motivation?

[mdupont]

"Intel is in the business of selling hardware, not software, and so will support/recommend whatever they think is most advantagrous to them."

Intel is moving into the biz of selling software big time

Re:Intel's motivation?

[Jason Earl]

That's actually the wrong question when it comes to OEM installs. After all, if you buy the OEM version of Windows it doesn't come with any support at all. Microsoft has been very successful at offloading Windows support onto the systems builders.

That's why, for the system builder, Linux is a clear win. It lowers their overall cost of the machine without significantly raising their support costs (especially now that Intel is willing to help make sure that the hardware is Linux compatible). As an added bonus a large percentage of the folks that currently buy Linux on their machines later go on to put a pirated version of Windows on the machine. For the system builder this means that they don't have to worry about support *at all*.

Basically preloading Linux allows systems builders to lower the overall price of the hardware they sell, and for Intel that's a definite win. The lower the overall system price the more hardware Intel can sell.

How long...?

[julesh]

How long do you reckon MS will let Intel get away with something like this for, before threatening to (e.g.) make a statement that Windows runs better on AMD processors?

Re:How long...?

[cpghost]

Or imagine a new crippled version of Windows to punish Intel users? Oh, wait...

Re:How long...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or imagine a new crippled version of Windows to punish Intel users? Oh, wait...

Yeah.. I was gonna say. Intel users are already crippled enough as is, no matter what OS they run nowadays. Intel sucks.

Re:How long...?

[Kjella]

About as long as they want Intel not to make a statement to promote Non-MS operating systems on top of Intel processors? MS has almost as much to lose as Intel on this.

Kjella

Re:How long...?

[metricmusic]

get away? you make it sound like intel is committing a crime. get your priorities straight. this is slashdot. microsoft is the bad one here!

Re:How long...?

[nikster]

Even better: MS switches to the PPC platform. They use G5s in the XBOX 2 and they own Virtual PC for backwards compatibility - they could (easily) pull a move like Apple did when switching from 68k to PPC...

M$ could be deliberately hedging its bets here - better have a big stick in the closet in case Intel acts up (too much).

Re:How long...?

[fymidos]

They cannot do that of course, they are a convicted monopoly, under close surveilance. A statement like that would open the gates of hell.

Re:How long...?

[UnknowingFool]

How long do you reckon MS will let Intel get away with something like this for, before threatening to (e.g.) make a statement that Windows runs better on AMD processors?

M$ dirty tricks are well documented in the antitrust trial. Previously they threatened Intel when Intel wanted to develop a virtual machine for Java on x386. These days, M$ is a convicted monopolist, and although they had their hand slapped, they have to be on their best behavior. Also, Windows is no longer the only option on x386. Yes Windows dominates thte desktop, but for servers Linux is gaining a foothold. If Intel is successful, a potential few hundred million Asian computers on Intel running Linux might give them some breathing room.

Re:How long...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Convicted monopoly? I didn't realize monopolies were illegal...

Re:How long...?

[sadler121]

Even better: MS switches to the PPC platform.

How is this better, let along insightful. The MOMENT Microsoft switches to the PPC platform for desktop computers, they IMMEDIATLY face competing from Apple. Steve Job's would be licking his lips at that thought, and that would be Billy's single biggest business mistake EVER. With the advent of OS X and the G5 Apple (giving a good nod to iPod users) Apple has already seen an increase in sales, and an increase in market share. I know of one person (my brother) who after using my power book for a semester at school, has sworn off PC and is now an Apple fan. So, Microsoft switching to the PPC would hurt Intel, no doubt, but then we would see a huge increase in Apple market share, (Apple just makes better computer's hardware/software PERIOD, not even mentioning the fact that OS X is BSD Unix based, making it a hellva a lot more friendlier to the FOSS community).

On second though, let Microsoft switch to the PPC, that would only give Apple some competing, enabling them to drop there prices. :-)

Re:How long...?

[unixbugs]

Yes Windows dominates the desktop, but for servers Linux is gaining a foothold. Gaining a foothold? we have 9000 servers nation wide, and only about 400 of them are windows based. the rest run linux and freebsd. the tech support departments at all locations still need an equal number of windows support techs, even though MS only has a fraction of the machine numbers.

we do not fuck around. we dont use windows because it costs too much money and it is far too unstable for our mission critical business. the only place windows has in our environment is to appease customers who are inept at learning new things -customers who will never know anything better than sending reboot requests on a daily basis to a provider.

i personally hope microsoft dies in a pool of its own legal vomit for all the hell ive gone through just working around their OS.

Re:How long...?

[the angry liberal]

Yes Windows dominates thte desktop, but for servers Linux is gaining a foothold.

Seriously, this is insightful? That sounds like 1996. At least, our datacenter in 1996 didn't have a single Windows box in it. Nowadays, it has over a hundred. Why? Because Microsoft is taking a foothold in the datacenter, not a big one, but it is the one fighting for ground in the server market.

If you have been around the net for a while, think about the cost of your Internet access pre and post the Linux revolution. I recall paying about $70/mo for 14.4k dialup + phone line. Now I pay $49/mo for 3MB DSL. While the cost of communications has dropped considerably, Linux/BSD factors in here too. Where did Cisco get its shell? Where did half the network appliances and routers get their kernels? BSD and Linux. That cut the costs enormously as opposed to developing new systems from the ground up.

Linux will continue to slowly enter our lives in different ways, but the server market decided on Linux long ago.

Re:How long...?

[bm17]

The MOMENT Microsoft switches to the PPC platform for desktop computers, they IMMEDIATLY face competing from Apple.

I don't see how they would be competing with Apple any more than they are now. Normal people aren't buying Windows vs. Mac because of the CPU. And it's not like Apple is going to start using PPC platforms intended for Windows. Apple is very strict about controlling exactly what hardware goes into one of their products. I don't see them allowing OSX to run on just any old PPC platform.

Re:How long...?

[citog]

Monopolies are illegal in a number of countries. You can usually find information about this along with anti-trust legislation.

With or without M$ support

[bogaboga]

Linux and OSS will succeed with or without M$ support. Heck, Linux has got where it is without M$ support per-se. I do not see why this should not continue.

For Intel, if there is cash to be made, Intel will go for it. What will be needed is to show M$ the numbers which will be too big to ignore.

Cb..

Re:With or without M$ support

[Fire Dragon]

Why would chinese goverment want to push free secure software to it's citicens when it can make them use 'free' insecure MS-software?

It would be a lot easier for the goverment to control and monitor people with Windows. And they don't care about the pirace or patens or coprights.

Re:With or without M$ support

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be a lot easier for the goverment to control and monitor people with Windows.

Point well taken. But I think it would take the Chinese gov't buying a bulk license for their whole nation for this to happen. In any case if Msoft starts looking like a whore giving freebies to China then we'll know why.

And they don't care about the pirace or patens or coprights.

People in China generally don't care, but corporations are starting to have to, due to WTO requirements.

Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux and BSD already have a strong foothold on the desktop in asian countries, and is in use on many government computers as well.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chro ni cle/archive/2004/03/17/BUGTA5M3M41.DTL&type=busine ss

http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8954613940.ht ml

http://www.asiaosc.org/article_54.html

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Daengbo]

I was a little disappointed when I moved from Thailand to Korea. The Linux presense here is almost nil. In Thailand, however, you can't walk into a shopping center without seeing a computer pre-built with Linux on it, and it's mentioned in every mailer for the major hypermarkets as coming free with their computers.

There, the book store shelves are stocked full of books about how to use Linux ON THE DESKTOP. On the other hand, I have found a single book on RH9.0 in my five months in S. Korea.

Summarized as: the Linux presense is spotty...

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Anonymous Coward]

While the presence in the desktop market is admittedly very very slim, you must not be going to the right bookshops. Do you live in Seoul? If so, please go to Kyobo Bookstore, where they have plenty of books on using Linux. Or you could try Youngpung Bookstore which is about 50 meters down the road that also has plenty of books on using Linux.

In English too.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Daengbo]

Well, that's not exactly what I meant...
I live in Gangwondo Province, about three hours out of Seoul, so maybe I don't see the books you are talking about.

But I wasn't interested in English books anyway. In Thailand, the were literally thirty books in Thai in little podunk bookstores. The one book that I saw in Korea was one book produced in Korea in Korean. That's what I meant, so you can fill me in on how many books you see in Seoul about Linux in Korean, and I'll be excited to hear it.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Linux and BSD are that strong in Asia, where are all of the Linux laptops? Aren't most of them built there anyway? I honestly don't think that Linux will be strong in the market until you can purchase it pre-installed and fully functional on laptops.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are many books on Linux in Korean as well. They have almost the whole O'reilly line in Korean.

I don't know how good your Korean is, but go to kyobobook.co.kr (only works properly in IE, derrr, even changing the user agent in Firefox doesn't work) and go to the computer section. then click on the OS/network category. Then click on the Linux category. Voila. Whereabouts in Gangwondo do you live? If it's in a small town, chances are the "bookstore" will suck anyways.

Yes there might not be as many in Thailand, but they do exist.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Daengbo]

Well, my Korean is mostly nil, because I've been in country for short while, and I do live in a small town (though travel to the capital of the province sometimes), so I may have seen fewer than my share. I still have my girlfriend pick up the latest Thai Linux mags when she goes to visit her family every few months, just to get my fix. Hehehe. Linux junkie.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah well if you ever come up to Seoul give me a shout via the e-mail: chengod at gmail dot c-o-m

I'll point you in the direction of some Linux books. And watering holes/food if you'd like.

Keyboard Chaos

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I think we can all say with certainty, that any OS based on latin script, along with (still largely) latin based keyboards and paradigms, which dominates in south east asia, will lead only to a great wailing and a gnashing of teeth. Perhaps what is really needed is for south east asia to develop an OS based on their written and syntactic paradigms, rather that a latin based left to right, 26 letters, scheme.
The best thing Intel could do to win customers would be to try to develop such a solution, rather than simply hacking english OSes to suit the rest of the world.

And to preempt the responses, what are the FOSS solutions to this problem? I hear chinese language support in linux is coming along. But what about the input issue?

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[NanoGator]

"I think we can all say with certainty, that any OS based on latin script, along with (still largely) latin based keyboards and paradigms, which dominates in south east asia, will lead only to a great wailing and a gnashing of teeth."

It does anyway. I've been gnashing my teeth ever since I was forced to type 'man mount'.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[davejenkins]

And to preempt the responses, what are the FOSS solutions to this problem? I hear chinese language support in linux is coming along. But what about the input issue?

One the one hand, your post is naive in thinking that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other languages depend on Roman 26-letter alphabets for input. They do not. Each language has developed its own keyboard. Users can either use that keyboard or switch to Roman letters (usually with a dedicated key, or shift-space for a US keyboard).

On the other hand, you are correct that input is lagging for Chinese and Japanese input. There are some very very sophisticated apps to determine what one types becomes coherent kanji (chinese characters used in Chinese, Japanese, and sometimes in Korean). Windows has this issue largely under control, but FOSS is lagging behind.

Theoretically this is getting better, quickly. OpenAsia.org will post an article on this very topic very soon.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

But what about the input issue?

What about it? This has been a solved problem since the 80's at least. There are a number of very solid open source input engines for chinese characters using a variety of keyboards.

I expect that the rest of Asia will follow the example of Japan and that syllabaries and rationalized character sets will be in common use.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows has this issue largely under control

For native asian language installs maybe, but IME and its descendants are rotten crap far worse than most FOSS offerings.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

But what about the input issue?

Yeah, what about the input issue? I haven't had any problems inputting Japanese in GNU/Linux.

Also, I don't quite get your " I hear chinese language support in linux is coming along" comment. Linux is a kernel (no, I'm not trying to bring out a nomenclature fight) --- it does not need to know anything about natural languages. Or do you mean something like these?

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[WindBourne]

As root, type

ln -s `which man` /usr/bin/woman

.
Your problem is solved.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[sinnerman]

...and other languages depend on Roman 26-letter alphabets for input. They do not. Each language has developed its own keyboard

While they may have developed their own keyboards years ago, they no longer use those keyboards with characters on them because Chinese has over 10,000 character that would need to be represented and it was deemed slow and cumbersome. Instead they type using the "latin" keyboard in pinyin (which is the phonetic pronunciation of a written character utilizing only the 26 letters). A program then presents all possible characters related to that pronunciation from which they pick the appropriate one.

And while you are correct this is not ideal, I can type over 60WPM in Chinese and have friends that can type over 110WPM. What would be better, and what they indeed do have, is a tablet that recognizes character strokes which are then printed stdout.

As for creating OSes which no longer have the Latin foundation, you'd need to not only entirely rewrite them (because even RedFlag Linux and such have a Latin base) you'd need to rewrite the languages they're written in.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Enonu]

Oh really? Trying to get Japanese Font and input support on my machine ruined my regular fonts and nothing had the professional feel of IME. Could you please link me to some decent solutions Anonymous Coward?

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[kidgenius]

Instead they type using the "latin" keyboard in pinyin (which is the phonetic pronunciation of a written character utilizing only the 26 letters).

That was one of the coolest thing I learned from one of the Chinese grad students at my university this year. I was shocked to find out they learn the phoentic Chinese first in grade school, then learn the character.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting, I'm looking but not noticing the latin character set in the kernel. Maybe you mean that the tools around linux don't internationalize well to Eastern linux; let's blame RMS!

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

The Korean and Japanese keyboards do use their own alphabet though.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

typing man pump isnt any fun either...

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Deliveranc3]

In windows the app you talk about is indeed eligant, however it's about 120 megs. I can't see linux packaging something like that lightly.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[Anonymous Coward]

I just use what came with kde on suse - I think it is called kinput or something like that, the only thing I don't like about it is the default mode switch keys and that you have to edit a config file to change them.

Maybe IME has been recently improved, but I've wrestled with IME on 95/98/NT/2000/xp and never been impressed with its appearance, functionality, or ease of use - I've wound up with 'square box syndrome' on many windows installs . The KDE version just worked for me with no problem at all, not quite as pretty and intuitive as the OS X version but nicer than windows to be sure.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[kai.chan]

Perhaps what is really needed is for south east asia to develop an OS based on their written and syntactic paradigms, rather that a latin based left to right, 26 letters, scheme. I don't think this idea is feasible. There are a few problems associated with your suggestion and I doubt it would improve the situation of Open Source. Firstly, programming in an Asian language would be a pain. Secondly, you can't escape Latin characters in a program. Think of a For loop. You will need to replace a single letter 'i' with an Asian character, which usually takes more than one keystroke. Finally, many people in Asian countries has learned how to program using Latin character sets, there is no reason to change that now. I doubt programmers there will be happy when the standards change, and their efficiency at programming drop as they need to learn the new syntacs.

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[daniel23]

phoenix:/var/log # ln -s `which man` /usr/bin/woman
phoenix:/var/log # woman
Don't know which program should I run being >woman

Re:Keyboard Chaos

[stor]

It does anyway. I've been gnashing my teeth ever since I was forced to type 'man mount'.

Ahh... the ONLY reason why "info" exists.

Cheers
Stor

Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[Quobobo]

There's something wrong here. I'm a native English speaker, and both "..helping Asia use Linux" and "...helping Asia to use Linux" sound fine to me. Which is correct, and which has become so widely used that I can't figure out if it's wrong?

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[Anonymous Coward]

Foreigners
That would be all those that live outside England...
Hey you guys in the US/Canada/N.Z./Oz...etc etc you
speak English pretty good for Foreigners :-)

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty well, you mean.
Simultaneously showing off your awful grammar and insulting the rest of the English speaking world isn't doing England any favours. Frankly, you're a disgrace.

Anonymous ENGLISH Coward

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[jaavaaguru]

"helping Asia to use Linux" is the correct one. If I had more time, I'd come up with an example that proves this.

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[DataCannibal]

It's something to do with the verb "use" being used as a noun (substantive ?) This means in english this is the same as the infinitive; hence "to use".

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[hunterx11]

Substantives are adjectives used as nouns. A verbal noun is a gerund. I believe that in this sentence, "to use" is a complementary infinitive.

Re:Slashdot: Helping Foreigners to Speak English

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand in English usage is everything so if both are common, both are Ok. Use whichever flows best/feels nicest.

WTF!?

[gcantallopsr]

> because Linux violates about 228 patents

So, is it a fact or not? Proof it or shut up :-P

Re:WTF!?

[Anonymous Coward]

> because Linux violates about 228 patents

Linux has no chance to survive make its time.

Re:WTF!?

[krymsin01]

I emailed Jerry Falwell almost exactly the same thing. He didn't reply. I bet he told Jesus on me...

Re:WTF!?

[NanoGator]

"So, is it a fact or not? Proof it or shut up :-P"

I think you'd be a good deal happier if MS didn't prove it. In all seriousness, it's very possible Linux and related software can violate a patent or 3. Before you mod me down consider a few things:

1.) MS holds a lot of patents, valid or not.

2.) It's unlikely that authors of FOSS software run a patent search for every feature they implement.

3.) MS can easily make ready a team of lawyers to make a case out of just about anything.

4.) Linux doesn't have a whole lot to fight back with.

I don't mean this to be insulting, but I seriously doubt Linux is squeaky clean. I in no way mean to imply immoral intent, but there are so many patents and so many lines of code. It would not be good if MS were to attempt to 'prove' it.

Re:WTF!?

[Vulcann]

Does it violate 228 or 288. Also how come it violates "about" 228 patents ? Does the number of patents it violates change depending on the time of day you measure it ? /sarcasm

Re:WTF!?

[tomstdenis]

I think just the opposite. If Linux implemented say a thread scheduler or something and was found to infringe upon a patent that was [in theory] unknown to the implementer than the idea can't possibly be that novel and original if another person can make the same conclusions.

Also it will show how absurd [in particular] MSFT patents are. I can't find it right now but I'm sure I found one for MS taskscheduler [re: cron jobs] and another for "making multimedia projects" [re: virtual dub] and there are plenty more.

I think for every really legit patent MSFT does have [and there are a few] there are 100s to 1000s of totally bogus patents that aren't original, non-obvious or useful.

The average citizen really doesn't know much about linux, knows less about FOSS and could give a rats ass for IP law w.r.t. software [movie/music is another story]. If cases made some news it might help shed some light on how stupidity and greed have turned the patent office from a defensive weapon to a tactical offensive weapon.

Tom

Re:WTF!?

[man_of_mr_e]

You seem to have a skewed idea of how the patent system works. Just because someone else independantly invents the same thing doesn't mean the original patent is invalid. It's quite possible for two people to independantly invent the same thing without it being an obvious invention.

Remember, that patents are based on algorithms, not implementations. Also remember that what may seem obvious today, wasn't necessarily obvious when it was first invented. There may be multiple ideas based on the invention, which gives someone the idea for a similar invention to the first. It seems obvious, since you've had access to the derived inventions, but it wasn't in the first place.

For example, I once had the "bright" idea to invent a circuit that would allow you to utilize the high beam filament of a headlight when the low beam filament burnt out. After doing a patent search, I found that it had already been patented, in various ways, several times. Is this an obvious invention? I don't think so, even though I independantly came to the same conclusions as other people. It was based on a number of other ideas and events, and I probably would not have had the idea if I hadn't already seen technology similar to it.

Re:WTF!?

[man_of_mr_e]

Also, remember that Linux kernel hackers are not working in a vacuum. They have access to research and published papers on patented technology. While they may not have intentionally implemented something they knew to be patented, one doesn't always realize where their ideas come from. It may be that they read about the technology in passing, which spurred their ideas. Also, many of the people working on the kernel have worked commercial OS's, and again may have had access to technology that they've consciously forgotten about, but their subconscious still remembers.

So, unless it's possible to prove that the inventor had no access to the technology in any way, it's not possible to use the "obvious" argument. And since it's quite difficult to prove such a situation, it's unlikely to hold up.

Re:WTF!?

[tomstdenis]

My point though is why punish those who worked hard as well? Patent searches are clearly not an easy thing to do given the amount of mascarading patent attorneys do to make the inventions they represent sound legit.

The point of my reply is to show how dated patent law is. When patent law was written there were what? Maybe a few thousand patents out there? ... at best.

Now there are millions and I wouldn't be surprised to see the magic 10M figure hit next year at the going rate.

I'd say unless you can prove that the "violator" had to have known about your patent [assuming the patent is legit] then the "violator" should be in the clear. Sure you shouldn't be able to file a patent but why be punished?

I think what upsets FOSS developers most is that more often than not they're caught up in patent disputes totally by accident. They implement something to solve a problem. I seriously doubt they do patent shopping to see what they can violate. Then after all the hard work they put into their software they're told by some greedy money grubbing asshat "nope! I have a patent on the XOR operator and now you must pay me a million kajillion billion dollars!"

I think patent reform is a must. Some ideas

1. One year ban on any company that files an invalid patent.
2. Make patent filing accessible to all [e.g. free or near free]
3. You must actually use your patent within a year of filing and the use must be clearly evident.
4. Actually write claims in clear specific English and not legalese
5. The patent must contain enough information to actually implement the invention
6. Patents should only be valid for 10 years.
7. The patent database should be categorized by the use of the invention.
8. Patents should be audited before being filed by experts in the field of the invention. Not just some lowly patent attorney. Possibly use some web based feedback system. ;-)

Tom

Re:WTF!?

[man_of_mr_e]

The problem is that any patent reform would ultimately punish the little guy. For example, your requirement of implementing that patent within a year would punish those people without sufficient resources to do so. The idea behind patents was to protect the little guy, to give them the time necessary to produce a real product from their invention.

Any system that helps the little guy can be abused by the big guy.

Re:WTF!?

[tomstdenis]

Big companies exploit that by patenting something they know they can implement [resources and/or it's not complete]. If you can't actually make your invention you can at least publish it so nobody else can monopolize it.

I don't think patents are really fair in any sense. I mean the incentive for invention shouldn't be money. It should be progress. Until we evolve beyond that we're just going to be running the gambit on how to screw "the other guy" since well, that's what capitalism is.

Tom

Re:WTF!?

[big-giant-head]

M$ owns very few foundational patents i.e. threads,
semaphoreds, shared memory, file locking, SMP etc..

Why... Because companies like Novell (Remember they still own the unix IP), IBM, SUN (yes SUN), HP, Fujistsu ..... All own alot of this why??? Because they were making real OS's while MS was trying to get FAT16 working.... All of these companies have far more patents than M$(in terms of OS stuff that would apply to linux) and guess what?? They all have a stake in Linux. So Linux has very little to fight with, but those that have invested in linux have ALOT to fight with. I've said it before if M$ wants a knock down bloody patent war they will lose.

Not even thier butt buddies in the DOJ can save them from IBM's lawyers.

Re:WTF!?

[Anonymous Coward]

"4.) Linux doesn't have a whole lot to fight back with."

Novell. IBM. Both have suggested that they will use their patent portfolios to protect their interests in Linux.

Re:WTF!?

[kai.chan]

Ask Darl.

Do the governments care?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, think about the last time the governemtns of India or China actually cared about patents that were registered outside their respective countries. Moreover, since Linux provides a very cheap alternative to Microsoft's products, I doubt if they will care about all the noise that MS makes. On the other hand, Microsoft is using what some may call 'underhand' tactics to sway the governments. Donations to government programmes is one of them. And as someone posted above, Linux SUPPOSEDLY violates 228 patents. MS has been trying to play down Linux for quite some time now and now they're saying it violates 228 patents. Yeah, I believe that.

Re:Do the governments care?

[malsbert]

MS has been trying to play down Linux for quite some time now and now they're saying it violates 228 patents. Yeah, I believe that.

_you_ do not have to believe, the uninformed custermers is the only ones that matters and they _will_ believe.

Re:Do the governments care?

[Vulcann]

China (and quite possibly India too) are inherently wary and more suspicious of a big firm owning every computer they work on. Conspiracy theories aside, its pretty well known that the NSA and other security agencies in the US "work with" Microsoft during they're OS development. Now if I were a government in Asia, I'd rather ask patent lawyers to kiss my ass rather than let a foreign government have the complete ability to spy into my entire computer network.

Thats the simple reason why no matter what M$ does, it'll never gain absolute control over Asian governments.

Re:Do the governments care?

[Builder]

The argument from Microsoft though, is that as people sign up to Free Trade agreements, or are forced to sign up to certain WTO treaties, they _HAVE_ to care about american IP, and they _HAVE_ to enforce it.

This is one of the reasons that India is no longer allowed to manufacture generic versions of certain drugs anymore, despite the fact that these were saving lives daily!

Re:Do the governments care?

[Anonymous Coward]

its pretty well known that the NSA and other security agencies in the US "work with" Microsoft during they're OS development

What is also well known is the difference between "they're" and "their".

Oh, hang on,this is /., isn't it?

Re:Do the governments care?

[MHleads]

Seriously, think about the last time the governemtns of India or China actually cared about patents that were registered outside their respective countries.

India will soon enter in the WTO patent regime.

And according to this news, Microsoft will be using WTO as its intellectual property enforcement proxy.

Re:Do the governments care?

[the_womble]

China (and quite possibly India too) are inherently wary and more suspicious of a big firm owning every computer they work on. Conspiracy theories asid

Which is why MS's threats might very well push Asian givernments away from software patents.

They have given us a wonderful example of what ASia has to lose from software patents and I will be very surprised on if this does not have an effect on Asian, especially Chinese, thinking during the next round of WTO negotiations.

Incidentally software patents are not currently required by the WTO patent regime or Europe would have already had them.

Re:Do the governments care?

[Tim C]

Seriously, think about the last time the governemtns of India or China actually cared about patents that were registered outside their respective countries.

Let's say they don't, and MS makes good its threat, sues a bunch of projects, and wins. Most of these projects are developed in countries that either now or soon will have software patents, so it's possible.

So, what happens? Well, bang goes ongoing project development, and bang goes a large lump of the support community. China may find itself going from "you can always support it yourself" to "you *have* to support it yourself". That alone may make widespread adoption of Linux less attractive.

In short, don't think punishment, think chilling effect.

let them try !

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quite fun how MS will sink at the end no matter how atractive they try to to offer their porducts or protection against lawsuit linux will prevail

Re:let them try !

[sien0001]

Microsoft's philosophy is doomed at its kernel. Instead of expending millions of dollars on propaganda they should spend some money on developers. Windows in general is becoming more unstable with each release, especailly with the Server and Stolen Directory. Hmmm, I mean Active Directory. It is simple, Mircorosft's downfall will be its inability to produce a product that works.

China couldn't care less!

[Anonymous Coward]

China couldn't care less if Linux is breaking patents - their response to GM's claim of car design theft should explain that. Here's a link to Forbe's article on that http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:DRIMvkRStB8J:w ww.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2004/09/06/ap1531296.html+g m+china+car+copied&hl=en&client=firefox-a/

If Intel's efforts will bring down the price of PCs in India, its an excellent move, and of course, with relatively cheap admins at their disposal, Banking and other firms wouldn't think twice to cease the opportunity, like AIB did. http://www.computerweekly.com/Article131652.htm/

Re:China couldn't care less!

[Stevyn]

That's not true. I was recently over in China and I got an opportunity to speak with some kids ranging from 10 to 14 years old. Their biggest fear is using an operating system that may not fairly compensate the owners of the patents it uses. Though young, they understand the meaning of respecting large companies.

Well..

[neodude88]

The Chinese government runs their own distribution of Linux called "Red Flag Linux"...

Re:Well..

[oliverthered]

Well according the there web site it was the first commercial distribution to be compiled with the Intel compiler. spooky.
Thet've also get some more on Linux in Asia

You go, girl.. er Intel.

[Anonymous Coward]

So there goes the assumption that Intel is Microsoft's bed buddy.

Microsoft begins to pump up AMD64 proccessors,
see:
http://www.theregister.com/200 4/11/24/microsoft_de ll_amd/

So Intel makes it a goal to introduce Linux to 3/4's of the world's population, who coincendently have very little Windows knowledge.

Remember how people say Windows is so easy to use?
Well I don't think it is. I think it comes more from the fact that a person has been using Microsoft OS's for 10-15 years, and Linux OSes for around 2-3 months. That makes a difference.

So what is going to happen when these people are used to using Linux and all their apps run in Linux and Microsoft comes along and tells them:

"Ya we may have viruses, and worms, and spyware, and IE, but look at all the good things you can get from using Windows and Office!
You get to give us MONEY!!! Yah for Microsoft!"

Intel can go damn cheap..
2.0 ghz celeron proccessor, 256megs of ram, onboard audio, onboard nic, onboard video, small form factor, and a 40gig drive can go a long way towards a dirt cheap, but respectivaly performing Linux desktop computer for under $200.

The average /.'er may not realise this, but when manufacturers like Intel open up hardware to open source drivers the amount of technical knowledge you need to install/run Linux is about nil. Especially if the configuration is tested and known by professionals beforehand.

Patents?

[Savant]

Those would be American patents, right? As in patents that have no legal significance outside America? And we're talking about China and India, right?

Yeah. That's what I thought.

cost factor.

[monotoy]

i'd say that linux has a huge advantage over m$ - cost, especially in china. there aren't many people who can afford a legal windows copy - not to menation that actually finding a legal copy can be a difficult issue in itself :) also, i assume that chinese users are in a very early state of their computer use habits, so there isn't this decade-old religiousness on hardware/OS preferences like in europe and the US, which is an advantage especially for alternative/niche companies. there was a nice article on the reg recently on it in asia, here.

Re:cost factor.

[monotoy]

one thing to add - judged by what i hear from the chinese i know and work with (mostly shanghai, some HK), i'd guess that most of the users there don't care at all about patent infringement, piracy or any such issue.

Re:what?

[puddpunk]

it's rather small...

Asia rarely has gone for scare tactics

[inflex]

One of the things that I've noticed with politics when it comes to Asia is that they generally don't go for the whole 'scare' campaigns.

Most times I've seen the US make threatening dances and Asia (okay, typically China) go "*shrug* so what?".

The US and its companies are fast sliding past the position where they can afford to rely on feather puffing and noise making - they may end up being next year's Turkey on China's plate.

Re:Asia rarely has gone for scare tactics

[inflex]

Ugh, this -was- supposed to be attached to someone else's comment (about Microsoft having 228 patents or so).

Re:Asia rarely has gone for scare tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember scare tactics is an american thing mainly. The use of fear exists everywere, but usually works better in the US.

We all saw people in Montana building bunkers in their backyards after 9/11...

Oriental Tactics

[jocks]

Intel: Hello we would like to show you our processors and this lovely software called Linux and OpenOffice.

Oriental Bod: Very nice. The chips are a bugger to copy, we will just have to buy them. How much for the software?

Intel: Free.

Microsoft: You will be sued and die!

Oriental Bod: How much for your OS and office package Microsoft?

Microsoft: Same price as an average family home in your country, per box. Plus maintenance, anti-virus, defragemntation, remote support, admin tools and server costs. Plus downtime for virus attacks, patching, reboots on software install and the inevitable hacker attack. But if you read this document, the TCO is lower than the free software. Oh, I nearly forgot, we made Intel look bad because our OS's were so unreliable people thought the processors were bad too.

Intel: Mention AMD and you will be sued and die!

Oriental Bod: Hmm, so AMD and Open Source is cheaper in every conceivable way than Windows and
Intel. And as it's open I can manufacture my own devices and release the drivers without having to go through Microsoft scrutiny, thereby making my time to domestic market much faster?

Intel: Except you will be better using our chips rather than AMD's.

Oriental Bod: But your 64bit chip is the same as their 64bit chip and the geeks in Open Source land have been playing with it for longer. We like AMD!

Microsoft: But Linux violates nearly 229 patents!

Oriental Bod: We violate hundreds of human rights but no-one seems to give a damn about that either! We will be working on our Human Rights record for years to come, your licensing is insignificant to us. Bring on the AMD and OO!

Re:Oriental Tactics

[realkiwi]

This isn't funny it is insightfull

Asian pirate issues?

[laughingcoyote]

It's my understanding that pirate copies of Windows are pretty widely available in Asia. This may, in somewhat of an ironic twist, actually end up hurting implementation of Linux-if you can get a copy of "Windows" for near-free, it may actually discourage people from adapting an open-source solution.

Re:Asian pirate issues?

[ianalis]

i'm from the philippines and most people here don't know any other operating system than windows. it's really hard to convince people to use linux and other open source software because of piracy. that's why i start by spreading firefox then introducing other open source software inc. linux

Re:Asian pirate issues?

[mallumax]

Mod parent up!

I'm an indian and the rampant piracy is the main reason why open source hasn't caught up much. But in governments and corporations linux is slowly gaining momentum.India's biggest insurance company LIC moved it's entire infrastructure onto linux.LIC moved 25,000 desktops and 1000 servers to linux.(But the conversion was from Unix) Even in most organisations linux use is limited o proxy servers,mail servers and file servers. The biggest concern is support.With Redhat and IBM in the arena now the situation is much better.

But consumer adoption remains a distant dream. The only way linux can win over the consumer is local language computing.Though Hindi is the official language of India ,individual states, whose borders are mostly drawn on socio-linguistic borders, are free to decide their own regional languages for internal administration and education, so there are 22 official languages spoken throughout the country Some of the LUG's are very active in local language computing.Gnome has been translated into Hindi,Bengali and Malayalam.

Over 40% of the computers sold in india are assembled by some neighbourhood vendor.(Brand PC's are more expensive hence not very popular among the pric conscious and in India price is the single most important factor in buying ANYTHING).Allmost all the vendors install pirated copies of windows.If MS ever decides to go after these vendors they will be digging their own grave.

Re:Asian pirate issues?

[toogreen]

Good point. Being now In China I can also confirm that Windows piracy definately, directly hurts adoption of Linux on Home users desktops... I was pretty disapointed when I moved to China because I was expecting to see mainstream use of Linux all around which is totally false and far from the actual reality.

Yes, I guess it is true that Chinese government adopted Linux and I did see it running on metro terminals for example.. But that's about it, most people here don't even have a clue as to what Linux is. There's A LOT of computer shops around here and I have NEVER seen any linux or OSS software ANYWHERE for general consumer/home user market. Everything is proprietary, pirated software.

I also work in a school now and the chinese IT managers there, although they are quite competent at administrating windows boxes, when I asked them why they don't run Linux, most of them looked at me totally clueless! They don't even have any knowledge whatsoever of stuff like Apache, PHP or MySQL!! There are also a LOT of computer related/programming magazines here and ALL I see is Windows/C#/ASP/.NET etc... NOTHING Linux/OSS related! The thing is, in China, anywhere, you can buy a copy of Windows (or anything, even something expensive like Photoshop or Maya!) for about 0.60$...

So I think It's just cheaper for chinese people to buy the Windows pirated CD (0.60$) than to bother getting a broadband connection (about 15$ a month) to download a couple of Linux CDs...

Sad and disapointing, I know... Perhaps if they could just sell "pirated" distros! Ironic you might say, but maybe some kind of "piracy" could actually have a positive effect towards general adoption of Linux! No? I think part of the problem might be that Chinese people in general, especially young people, just are tired of the old communist system and they don't see any value in "free things" anymore.. I think it's actually a bit of the same problem in capitalist countries... People tend not to believe something "cheap" or "free" can actually be good!

Anyone, that was my 0.60$ ;)

Haha they have Asian centric OSes already: Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm..

Linux supports eastern languages much better then Windows does.

Have you ever heard of TurboLinux? DragonLinux? RedFlag Linux?

TurboLinux is what China uses for most of it's infrastructure.

Linux has been working well for Asians for a long long time, and it supports various languages and such much better then Windows does in many cases.

RedFlag Linux is what it developed SPECIFICLY for a desktop operating system for it's citizens.

Think about it.

This is SOFTWARE DEVELOPED BY ASIANS FOR ASIANS.

By CHINA FOR CHINA.

You think Intel is going to any of the fucking work of translating it? Hell NO! They are going to simply open source their drivers and provide support and such for making their hardware very suitable for the operating system that Chinese/Korea/Japan/India/etc are already developing FOR THEMSELVES.

This is Open Source software, baby. This is how it works, this is why it works, and this is why it works better then closed source software in many cases.

As for the keyboards, you have to understand that the keyboards that we in the west are using are obsolete by 15 years by now. There are much more sophisticated solutions that have been developed and put into production for many years now.

Goes to show how Western + Closed source-centric your thinking is in this case.

Copyrights?

[kevingc]

If the patent goes the way of the copyright in China... Well, the result is an excercise left to the reader.

patents, future, microsoft'll pay to find violate

[megadoo]

Microsoft should give a small sum for every patent proven to be violated by open source software.

The linux community can then record this and write alternatives.

Automatic detection software would soon follow. dPatent will automatically identify patents being violated and will rewrite the code, patent free.

Soon, the patent office will realize the current patent system is not scalable, and the system will be changed. A (software?) patent would have to be automatically identifiable from now on.

(This is possibly impossible in many cases anyway. Isn't it?)

World peace would be inevitable.

Uri Schonfeld

Patents

[Mauvaisours]

possible lawsuits because Linux violates about 228 patents

Well, it would have been better to write "228 AMERICAN patents", I'm not sure most of those would stand in China, or even Europe....

Oriental != Chinese

[Tethys_was_taken]

Oriental Bod: We violate hundreds of human rights but no-one seems to give a damn about that either! We will be working on our Human Rights record for years to come, your licensing is insignificant to us. Bring on the AMD and OO!

Very funny and hilarious and all, but Oriental and Chinese are clearly different please. Stop generalizing the whole of East Asia into the "Chinese". Not every country in East Asia violates human rights you know. Some of them are, in fact, well run democracies.

Re:Oriental != Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

And you can be a democracy and still abuse human rights as shown by one country thats recently invaded another.

Re:Oriental != Chinese

[realkiwi]

"Some of them are, in fact, well run democracies."

Where opposition leaders rot in prison?

Where young girls are sold as sex slaves?

Where you can't dress as you please?

Come on the largest "democracy" in the world has issues with vote counting and prisoners held without basic human rights.

Re:Oriental != Chinese

[andrewmc]

Oriental and Chinese are clearly different please. Stop generalizing the whole of East Asia into the "Chinese".

I'm sure the mistake was purely Occidental.

Re:Oriental != Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on the largest "democracy" in the world has issues with vote counting and prisoners held without basic human rights.

But ...@but ... USA is *not* the largest democracy!!!

Oh wait ...

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Florida and PATRIOT Act.

Re:patents, future, microsoft'll pay to find viola

[maxwell demon]

The linux community can then record this and write alternatives.

Well, unless MS owns the patent on the business method of avoiding patent lawsuits by not using patented code, of course :-)

With or without M$ support

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel has their eye not only on server mobos, but also on the Chinese PC market. Admittedly, home PC users in China currently often have the very latest Windows, just as they have access to $1 DVDs of films that have just hit the theatre here in DVD Region 1. BUT due to licensing expenses + WTO, Chinese companies will use free software (now we know that Sun knows this too). They'll dislike Longhorn because of backdoor fears (3 letter acronym corporate international espionage, etc.): "security" by spaghetti hardware.

In China corporate-licensing requirements will be the necessity-mother of the invention of the usable free-software PC. And as OEM sellers in China increasingly have to include legitimately licensed operating systems, home market OEMS will have to be free software. Also consider the office --> home flow of computers.

In other words, most PCs in China 5 years from now will not be Longhorn.

Dell/Intel

[salvorHardin]

Suddenly, I understand why MS are doing what they are with Dell/AMD

I HAVE ONE MODERATOR POINT LEFT

[Anonymous Coward]

and I'm not fucking afraid to use it! Don't even think about pissing me off!

The source of Ballmer's statement

[gijsvanswaaij]

According to this article, Ballmer's source is not clear at all yet. However, it might be based on this report, that states that: "283 software patents not yet reviewed by the courts could potentially be used to support claims of infringement against Linux." Not at all, as Ballmer claimed, certainly patent violations, but only patents not yet reviewed.

stereotype: millionaire Chinaman drives

[Sai Babu]

a 10 year old Buick.

The stereotype fits for my family and friends.

Here's a bit of ethnic humor.

Yes, I can see LInux easily 'winning' in China.

It's too good a bargain and the learning curve isn't that much steeper than WinDohs.

What I want to know is what Apple has in min for China and Asia markets. Are they addressing culture based aesthetics as they do in the USA? Do they even realize how many people in the USA buy Apple for aesthetic reasons?

Review this very issue at OpenAsia.org

[davejenkins]

Forgive the shameless plug, but we are trying to address this very issue at OpenAsia.org. Some cursory points:

1. The Chinese market and Indian markets are huge-- beyond your wildest dreams huge. Imagine the combined market of the US and EU in EACH country, but the economic maturity (read potential) of 1955 in the US.

2. Desktops are old skool, and the Chinese are leapfrogging directly to cell phones and notebooks. Think embedded (see interview with Rasterman on our site)

3. The posts here about keyboard compatability are non-sequiter: Chinese have Chinese-language keyboards if they want them; most Indians can speak some English (some are fluent), and Indian scripts are not so hard to do with specific keyboards

4. Linux is racing RACING in these markets-- espeically in India. Linux provides cheap, sturdy platforms for "free", while openning up the world of adaptative platforms and apps without having to go through the Americans.

5. Microsoft has its foothold, but that market is self limiting because of price, piracy, and functionality.

6. Red Hat, SuSE and the other "major" distros are equally limited via piracy (they cannot get money out of China or India). However, Red Hat's marketshare is growing rapidly in China.

7. We welcome any comments and stories based on these topics. (Forgive the membership requirement for posting comments-- we do not sell or transfer registration info.)

In Asia, BSA more visible than patent FUD

[Mostly a lurker]

I doubt many companies in Asia are concerned about litigation against open source over patents. If the BSA gains any support from Asian governments, however, that could have a major impact. Most small and some larger companies (varies how much by country) use mainly pirated Windows software. If the risk of using pirated software becomes unacceptable, I think open source will gain a huge slice of the market.

World Trade Organisation.

[wild_berry]

I heard some comment that Microsoft were turning to the WTO to enforce the notion of intellectual property in countries who do not recognise it, so that they can protect their patent portfolio. This ends up another misuse of the WTO to further the financial ends of the 'haves' at the expense of the 'have nots'.

Write to your government, etc. IDNHSC.

Re:World Trade Organisation.

[Bastard of Subhumani]

another misuse of the WTO to further the financial ends of the 'haves' at the expense of the 'have nots'.

... film at 11.

Re:World Trade Organisation.

[Tim C]

I'd be amazed if MS were the only ones pushing for this; any global business with a patent portfolio (ie *all of them*) will have that on their wish list.

Re:World Trade Organisation.

[fymidos]

actually they threatened, that WTO might someday come after countries about IP issues. Pretty much admitting that they cannot do anything about it.

thought !

[chrisranjana.com]

thought intel and microsoft were close friends !

America is a continent... not a country

[hppacito]

Sorry but all those patents apply just to one country in America, the others have other law and patent system...

Re:America is a continent... not a country

[Anonymous Coward]

And in some countries (like the E.U. countries, for now) it's not even legal to hold software patents.

Re:America is a continent... not a country

[VanillaCoke420]

Poland blocks EU software patent directive

Without Poland's backing, those countries that supported the proposal in May now fall short of a qualified majority in the Council of Ministers.

Lacking a qualified majority, the draft will be referred back to the Council, which will have to come up with a new draft to put before the European Parliament next month.

http://www.euobserver.com/?aid=17806

China?

[Anonymous Coward]

A country whose population prefers communism now fascism instead of freedom. Who gives a rats ass what OS they use.

Re:China?

[l3v1]

A country whose population prefers communism now fascism instead of freedom.

One would think so much ignorance should hurt really bad. You really have to think large masses of people just loved enjoyed and embraced many decades (over 40 years alone in eastern europe, let alone elsewhere) of this stuff. And you really have to think breaking out of it is just a matter of a fingersnap or what.

I lived through one of such revolutions which resulted in breaking a communist regime, it wasn't fun getting there, neither getting along with it you know. You just take your darn freedom for darn granted.

Dunno other parts of Asia, but in China

[lxt518052]

Linux isn't as popular as in the west partly because pirated Microsoft products are so easy to get. For example, you can probably find a set of pirated WinXP + Office XP CDs for 8 RMB, or US$1. Almost everything you need for a Windows machine can be find at a low price. As far as I can remember, this has always been the case since the mid-90s. Rumors said that MS itself promoted pirating Windows and other its products secretly to boost its userbase and reap the profit later by intimedating corporate user into buying licenses through lawsuits.

The reason for MS to help pirating its own software is the price. While a typical Chinese family in Shanghai earns RMB4000, or US$500, a month. A copy of MS WinXP Home OEM(supposedly cheaper than non-OEM, the reason why OEM is for retail is beyond me) is labeled RMB 880http://www.federal.com.cn/shop/game/productintr oduce.asp?productno=10ABBMIC343, or about US$100. That's about one fifth of the family's income. And MS Office 2003 Standard Chinese Simplified costs RMB3000http://www.federal.com.cn/shop/soft/product introduce.asp?productno=10CBEMIC382, or US$370. These prices are from an online retailer. They used to be much higher when people earns much less in the mid-90s. Paying a month's earning for only the basic operating system sounds just insane. But this was, and largely still the case in China if you want to stay with MS leagally. And there is no alternative to MS, since MS has virtually destroyed everyone who dare to challenge them by every means possible, including promoting pirates.

I know Microsoft's practices are the same globaly, but it is extremely effective in locking in users of developing countries like China. Unlike the west, there was virtually no base of unix users. To most people, computer = PC = Windows. The shortage of unix gurus makes Linux extremely hard to approach in the early days.

Now the situation has changed somehow, but language barrier still exists. Good linux documentation and forums are almost all in English or more obscure languages to a common Chinese. One has to be fluent in English to master Linux. There're not many people can do so, even among the youth. Translation helps, but not much, partly because of the quality. The community-driven model itself demands users and developers to communicate in common language, and the core developers are, inevitably, mostly English speaking or prefer to communicate in English.

Having said that, I still believe Linux is the way to go for Chinese, not for some national security reasons, but the freedom and openness.

Re:Dunno other parts of Asia, but in China

[the_womble]

One thing I have noticed is that MS is on a major PR offensive here in Sri Lanka. I suspect that they can succeed here becuase the market is small, already locked into MS and the government has no understanding of technology. Add the fact that coporate IT people are notoriusly corrupt and tend to buy the most expensive solution (usually proprietary via an overpriced channel) and the environment is terrible for Linux.

In spite of all that Linux is gaining some traction and over the last year I have noticed increasing numbers of job ads and courses for Linux (almost always RH). No desktop use yet but some banks and others are using it on servers.

I am using it for business use myself, but that is one very small (four desktop) business. There is some potential for home use (especially when people get frightened of viruses) but only where a sufficently knowledgeable user is willing to help others as most PC retailers are barely capable of supporting Windows, let alone Linux.

What do you think?

[jsantala]

I think these "what do you think"-posts are getting a bit long in the tooth. I mean, its not if there wasn't enough comments anyway.

Hence the beuty of a service based business plan

[TheLoneCabbage]

If a company is based around training and services then it shouldn't matter much how many copies are stollen. It should actually help. Example: You can download and use NXServer/Client for free, but if you are looking to run an office on it, your going to need their help. Same with Redhat. Most installations go smooth (a credit to their product) but if your doing something on an enterprise scale you want the comfort of knowing that you can blame the folks in the fedora, and they WILL fix your problems as they come up.

Since small jobs don't require much support it allows service companies to ignore the nickle and dime stuff and focus on the high rollers. So steel it all you like, your just increasing the number of people who are comfortable with the product, and decreasing the cost of finding good employees.

Of couse RH and Novel will need to find tech support workers who can cost effectively service India and China.... .... .... uh the Congo is nice this time of year isn't it?

228 patents?

[Rod Beauvex]

But aren't those patents meaningless in everywhere but the US? Forgive me, for I am n00b!

Re:228 patents?

[lxt518052]

Sure, they are supposed meaningless.

But with US's economic/military power and big companies' interests, sooner or later they are going to be globally enforcible.

Haven't you followed software patents in Europe lately?

Re:228 patents?

[Rod Beauvex]

Yes, I have. Sort of. That's what confused me about it.

Re:228 patents?

[lxt518052]

What I want to say is, even in Europe, where software patents have met such resistance among the people, and where democratic governments are supposed to listen to the people, the heads could change in favour of the patents in the last minute. Why? Doesn't that strike you a bit?

I'm not saying the US government and big corporations are evil. But countries outside europe, especially developing countries are surely more susceptible to the power of US and big corporations and very likely to give in in the end.

It's not necessarily a bad thing to have a strong US government exerting its power globaly. But the power is unchecked by all who it has a influence on, which is pretty bad in the sense of democracy.

w00t

[Anonymous Coward]

'Free' software?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the Chinese Govt likely to see the freedom offered by OSS as a threat?

What happens if the Chinese Government decides it can just ignore the GPL, use the Linux source, and create a closed-source Linux distribution that people are 'strongly encouraged' to use.. and just happens to do exactly what the Chinese Govt wants?

Call me paranoid...

Enough of MS lets focus on the happy news okay?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Geez, so far everyone is focusing on how evil and nasty MS and how they are a bunch of lying scumbags. All true enough and it wouldn't suprise me if when MS actually tries anything with that patent crap they will be shot out of the water by IBM and all the companies they have been stealing off.

So enough. Lets pet Intel a bit. Intel has long been hardly unfriendly to Linux but was on the other hand part of Wintel. Can this suggest that perhaps the Wintel alliance is not nearly as thight as some /. monkeys seem to think? (if it was explain why Intel would ever make their compiler work on linux.)

If Intel is really going to release stuff (actually more stuff they already have linux drivers of their own making) are they going to do it the opensource way? That could actually be pretty big. Almost all components of a pc can be bought from Intel. A total Intel PC with complete opensource drivers would finally end the "Linux doesn't regonize my hardware" crap.

A namebrand PC running 100% opensource software made by volunteers and the company making the hardware. Gosh, that would be nice.

Oh and if Intel releases opensource drivers then nothing in those drivers can be considered to ifringe on any patents of intel. And if Intel wants to sell their chips to Linux users they wouldn't enforce any patents against linux either. Is Intel another ally?

I think this kinda news and companies like nvidia and ati trying to support linux is actually very important. Linux share at the moment is tiny and if these companies did not try it would be even smaller. They are helping linux grow. (and if they go all the way and opensource their contributions BSD grow)

Anyone know if Intel is going all the way? Full opensource drivers and/or helping opensource developers with the specs to their hardware? Grepping through the kernel for intel doesn't tell me who wrote the code or how they found out how to write the driver.

Re:Enough of MS lets focus on the happy news okay?

[pandrijeczko]

I doubt Intel would open source their drivers to Linux.

It's not Linux they fear, it's the fact that once the drivers are open, then any competitor can get a hold of them and find out a bit more about how their hardware all works.

It's an encouraging sign from Intel, though. The real danger is that all Intel hardware goes the DRM/Palladium route at some point in the future - this would create a real problem for Linux because DRM/Palladium drivers are never going to be open sourced (for obvious reasons) and closed drivers would never be included within the kernel distribution.

If nothing else, we can kind of hope that Intel will still have an interest in Linux in the future and maybe release specific Linux hardware as a result. It's possible, then, I guess, they might open source some very specific drivers but I doubt they'd do anything more than that.

Re:Enough of MS lets focus on the happy news okay?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Intel engineers officially maintain many open source drivers for their hardware, within the kernel tree. Most of the drivers for Intel network cards, processors, chipsets, and now wireless are open source and GPL licensed thanks to Intel. I'd suggest checking your facts on this, since it's changed dramatically since a few years ago.

Democracy != Human Rights okay

[Anonymous Coward]

Going further off topic.

I agree China's HR record doesn't look good though it's improving slowly. But there're all kinds of democracies, even the most mature ones like US doesn't guarantee free from human rights voilates. Many East Asia countries only just begun experiencing democracy, and there are bond to be problems. Some practices would be crime in the west. For example, politicians in Taiwan blatantly incite hatred against PRC and pan-blue supporters to gain popularity. In their logic, pan-blue supporters are potantial traitors and are born with "original sin". This would constitute hatred crime in many _real_ democratic conturies.

BTW, the pan-blue supporters are mostly second or third generation of immigrates from the mainland in 1949. They share the same ethinic origin with the majority, only about two hundreds years late to arrive.

OS Trend in Asia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pirated windows.

Re:Haha they have Asian centric OSes already: Linu

[Anonymous Coward]

As for the keyboards, you have to understand that the keyboards that we in the west are using are obsolete by 15 years by now. There are much more sophisticated solutions that have been developed and put into production for many years now.

would you mind to name some?

It won't be MS it won't be Linux...

[NeedleSurfer]

It will be their own, it always is, they are very protective of their market and culture. It might start with Linux or something else but several things are sure:

1-China doesn't care for internationnal standards when it has too
2-China doesn't want to depend on the US for crucial technologies
3-China likes to develop it's own thing made for its own people
4-Their semantic and use of language and symbols is very different from ours, the OS interface should therefore, to be optimal, be very different then what we are used to.

So I think Asia (Asia is mostly influenced by China, it will need to be compatible with it...) will end up with some sort of OS we don't know of yet, something that fits them. It might be Linux based or something entirely different but even if it's Linux based, in the end it probably won't even be compatible with our Linux here.

Re:It won't be MS it won't be Linux...

[grm_wnr]

Another point to ponder:

If China doesn't care about IP rights, what makes you think it cares about the GPL? They MIGHT adopt Linux, but then what? Cut to a million slashdot geeks bitching about how 'China' (ok, the gouvernment, no need to flame) took Linux, made a Chinese language patch that works and then didn't release their modified sources.

Re:It won't be MS it won't be Linux...

[dancingmad]

So I think Asia (Asia is mostly influenced by China, it will need to be compatible with it...)

With a comment like that, you must be either American or Chinese ;)

Re:It won't be MS it won't be Linux...

[NeedleSurfer]

Well, it's a fact, the most influencial eastern country is China, by it's size, economical power, political structure and army size. it is the most powerfull Asian nation, culturally very different than from say Japan but as much as Swedish people are very different from american, the USA is still the most influencial country in their side of the planet (appart from their own of course).

Power lines

[Corellon Larethian]

I think Asia (China, to be specific) will start with Intel. And AMD machines.

They will eventually design, manufacture, and use processors of their own design. Standby when they do, because Intel (and AMD) will feel the competition. I also look for them to make mandatory "background distribute computing" programs on all their computers. Everyone will yell 1984/Orwell/New-Speak and everything else, but they will require people to harness the power of their computers.

They are already talking about building an assload of nuclear reactors to power everything. The only thing I'm wondering about is their transmission infrastructure. Crikey, they've got a LOT of power lines to figure out; that's a big country.

Even in Europe...

[Maljin Jolt]

American software patents are void.

Novell or IBM must license their patents to Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is for someone (IBM, or Novell) to lend or license their patents to Linux. A patent lawyer explained to me that large corporations are all violating each others patents all the time. Every now and then they carve out a sub-raft of patents and trade cross licenses. They keep all these patents as deterrents. If Microsoft sues IBM for some patents violation, IBM can definitely find something to counter-sue them for. They try to keep war from breaking out because war is uncertain and expensive. Far be it from me to accuse MS of FUD, but I expect it will play out this way.

Beyond their FUD, exactly who would MS sue, and who would defend them... that is, just who is the Linux that gets the cross licenses. Maybe IBM has to roll their own distro, as does Novell, and entice people to use their distro by including patent lawsuit indemnification. They would not do this for charitable reasons, they would do it for their current rationale, they want to hurt their competitor Microsoft.

Interesting analysis

[lxt518052]

It would be valid points if China were still isolated as in pre-colonial times.

Globalization has changed the context, like it or not.

Cultural and political factors aside, technically, it is sometimes easier to adapt existing solutions than build the whole thing ground up.

Show US Yours...

[webzombie]

Maybe its time for the OSS community to demand M$ prove their much faulted... errr...vaulted OS does NOT contain any IP violations.

Fair is fair sine Linux has shown it's insides why should M$ if they're so damn confident in the claims against Linux.

Please... much M$ FUD and the IT media just sucks it up like a bunch of tapped out winos! Sad.

Since when does mainland china care about patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

.

Since when does mainland china care about patents? It's CHINA for goodness sakes.

.

FUD and GM car design theft

[AtomicBomb]

The GM claim for car design theft sounds like FUD to me. The following is what I cut directly from the linked article. "But the Spark design, which GM obtained in its 2002 acquisition of South Korea's former Daewoo Motor Sales Corp., was never patented in China and thus isn't protected by China's intellectual property laws"... In addition, other than similar exterior look GM does not provide much evidence for copying. Most cars in the lower end of the market look similar anyway. It sounds like GM's FUD to me...

Remember the infamous GIF patent. Unisys has filed patent only in US, Japan, Canada, Germany, France, Britain and Italy. The above case was like Unisys boss cry foul for the use of unlicenced GIF tools by Scandinavian/ Australian/ New Zealander.

The slashdot community...

[Krankheit]

The slashdot community seems to have a love-hate relationship with Intel. We want to see AMD overcome Intel in the processor wars. But then we solute Intel for it's interest in Linux, and bash AMD for it's cozyness with Microsoft.

Re:The slashdot community...

[fymidos]

nobody wants to see "AMD overcome Intel". what we want to see is companies competing on the market. It's not that intel is bad or anything but competition is always good for the end user.

Do you think that you could buy a 4 Ghz machine today if amd hadn't released the K6 family some years ago ?

Re:The slashdot community...

[Anonymous Coward]

Love/Hate?
There isn't a whole lot of "love" I've ever seen. Slashdot will throw fud at ANYTHING, yes ANYTHING seen as successful. Even a linux company (see RedHat). Think about it.

Re:The slashdot community...

[killjoe]

Nobody has bashed AMD. You have confused bashing MS with bashing AMD.

Intel didn't start this program last week

[HangingChad]

Intel has been working on Linux initiatives for at least two years, maybe longer. But it was news that efforts were focused in Asia.

I would love to see the US pushed into Linux compatibility by other countries for a change. It's a better OS and a more efficient business model.

We have a day of reckoning coming. On the amount of energy we use, about being dependent on foreign countries for manufacturing capacity, being dependent on foreigners to finance our budget deficit and thinking we can sustain an economy on mind share exports. Won't be long they're going to start jerking those chains and we're going to get a lesson on what the word "bitch" really means.

And...?

[robyannetta]

And Intel can't do this in the U.S. because...?

Who runs Intel? Intel or Microsoft?

Intel should tell Microsoft to coexist peacefully with the other 300+ operating systems on the face of the earth.

Pirating in the name of career development

[AtomicBomb]

To promote Linux anywhere in the world, I feel the resistance from the parents is one of the big concern. Many will complain if they find their children are learning some useless subject, like, non-MS related computer course.

It is especially relevant for IBM. If they want to create future headache for MS, develop a good set of teaching resources, which can be delivered through Linux. It should be relatively easy to include typing tutor program (localised version), basic word processing (openoffice), internet browser, programming tools matched to the course to an iso... The teachers will love the idea.

It may not be that expensive to say, IBM. But, the schools can have a big company to lean on and the parents will feel much better.

M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for using the insightful "M$" -- really. If I were a moderator, I don't know what I'd do.

Let's not get caught up in the patent name calling

[gothamboy]

The future of linux and the ultimate downfall of the Windows environment are the developing economies of Asia. As the cost of HW goes down, the MS tax becomes a greater and greater percentage of overall costs and a greater and greater incentive for these economies to use and advance the Linux alterative.

The only way MS can play in these economies is to dramatically drop prices which would affect prices/revenue around the world because they couldn't have the prices so much lower in certain markets without a huge grey market developing.

Linux/Windows in India/China

[jipjakjam]

Bottomline...especially in India...no one cares whether their OS is Windows or Linux, people just want a computer that can do this, this and that. People have nothing to do with whether or not Microsoft engages in monopolistic behavior, or whether 'open source' is morally superior,etc etc. The market is still very open, so either Linux or Windows could win. The key to all this is Dell, if Dell becomes a key player, selling cheap but good quality computers, loaded with Windows, then Windows wins. If those comps are loaded with Linux, then Linux wins. The computer companies in India and China have all tried, but haven't become big enough to be ablev to sustain and grow the operations in the vast markets of India and China. Dell can do that, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dell's headquarters move to somewhere in India within this decade.

GPL Nightmare

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember that Linux is no better off where American-style copyright and threats of prosecution have no power than Microsoft is. Imagine the scenerio:

Chinese Government: Behold, citizens! Chinese Linux! You can get the binaries from us, with our spy... er, "security" improvements over the Western versions.

Linus, et al: Linux is GPL'd. You must release the code or you are in violation of the contributors' copyrights.

China: Bah! Your American IP laws mean nothing here! We will not release the improvements to you, and we will not open the source to our citizens. We hereby declare that obtaining non-Democratic Party approved source or binaries is illegal under penaly of death.

Linux: But... but...

Asia's using Linux... yeah right...

[Anita Coney]

We all know that once Intel turns is back, Asia's going to reformat and install warez versions of Windows XP!

Re:Asia's using Linux... yeah right...

[YetAnotherDave]

why do we know this?

what most of the posts here essentially say is that since anything commercial is pirated anyway, the cost of windows is the same as the cost of debian/slack/fedora/...

So people will run whatever suits their needs better. Both personally and at my workplace, we have machines bought with windows licenses that are running linux, but none bought with linux and running windows. If price isn't an issue, an educated user will choose based on functionality.

I'd expect linux to do well, since it's a fresh new market rather than one that is already 99.9% MS...

Re:Asia's using Linux... yeah right...

[Anita Coney]

I was kidding.

Software costs!!??

[Qool]

That's the general reaction, here in India. Majority of PC's are sold by local assemblers, corporates being the only ones looking for branded ones. And these assemblers load all kinds of commercial software for free, not just the operating system (which is either Win98 or XP). Even if someone wants to buy a copy of some software or game, there's no option but to go for the pirated version, cosidering the difficulties in getting hold of a legal distributor (let alone paying for the copy).

Having said that, there IS a general Linux and FOSS awareness (most youngsters learn about it in technical courses), now that piracy laws are getting tougher. Not to mention the whole virus/worm/spyware headache that's been plaguing all Windoze-based net users. But when you have WinXP CDs circulating for re-installs all over the place, who'd want to go through the trouble of installing and getting used to Linux?

But

[n3wtonian]

I think all of these Linux in Asia are pirated ones.

Oh wait...

linux in india? - soon

[ikejam]

well in India for the average SOHO/Home user, linux is pretty invisible. Windows is easy to use, ubiquitous and your vendor installs the version you pick. free. with the dial-up speeds viruses come slower (:-s) - (i.e. the ones using the buffer exploits.) besides Nortons free too ;) k i fear ive already said too much. but yeah once they start screwing piracy, linux should have a huge base.

GPL Compliance in Asia?

[codefreez]

I think the question the author asks is a bit irrelevant; we know there will be a strong linux showing in Asia.

And while we can all sit here and cheer about Linux's proliferation, I'm curious as to whether large Asian companies using Linux are following in the OSS spirit and abiding by the GPL with their usage of Linux. If Linux use in Asia is so large, we should expect similarly large contributions to the coding effort from Asia, correct?

(I know that there are likely uncountable GPL violations in the US/Europe that are unknown, but Asia seems particularly questionable.)

Re:Replace your pirated windows

[muditgarg]

This stories tells of another Microsoft techniques to increase no. of licensed users :-)

Asia

[wikinerd]

Asia doesn't want to be controlled by foreign interests, therefore it will adopt the IT technology it can implement by itself, i.e. GNU/Linux.

Posting from Asia

[nikster]

This is more than true. In China, India, and SE Asia, Windows costs just as much as Linux: Software is priced per CD, and one CD costs about $1 - 3, depending on the country.

So why do people use Windows if the cost the same? Because all Software, from Adobe to the latest games, is also priced per CD, and readily available for Windows. I pay $2 per CD for any Windows app here, no matter what it is. Mac is possible to get, but difficult and older. Linux apps, i have never seen. I think the only reason they sell Linux (RedHat etc) at all is for servers.

Obviously, people who sell you hardware can't just include a pirated copy of Windows, so they will pre-install either some DOS version or, increasingly, Linux - but just so people can install their own Windows. All big laptop manufacturers sell their low-cost models here with Linux or DOS pre-installed.

Microsoft doesn't do anything against that as in reality it's the only thing that keeps them on the market. If everybody here had to pay western prices for Software and OS, then no-one would be able to afford it and it would disappear from the market in a day. Everybody would use Linux, and asian software companies would be cranking out Linux clones of Win-software.

Piracy is the only thing that keeps M$ in the game.

Windows hangs on

[mrjacques]

Windows XP costs next to nothing here in Taiwan, if you're not picky about having a "license." As in the U.S., most people have only ever seen or used computers running M$ OSs and apps. Mac commands a measly single-digit market-sliver and Linux is for the hardy. Over the last six-to-eight years, just about everything O'Reilly ever published has been translated into Chinese, so most of the language-barrier problems have been overcome, but user habits and corporate/academic investments in training and software are slow to change. The desks of graduate students at my university are littered with books on ASP, not C.

As long as M$ tolerates rampant piracy and/or aggressively licenses its software (deep, deep educational discounts for example), Linux will have a hard time breaking into widespread desktop use here, unless it (ugh) looks, feels, and acts (double-ugh) just like Windows, and is just as cheap (!) and reliable.

Me? Oh, I'm just waitin' for the day, but I ain't holding my breath. Users here--like ordinary users just about anywhere--want to plug it in and use it. The only real difference, I think, is that users here want to plug it in and have it work in Chinese.

Ah, but _embedded_ though; that's another story. Taiwan out-gadgets the U.S. The market is small here, but we have this big neighbor just across the Strait....

Windows hangs on

[mrjacques]

Windows XP costs next to nothing here in Taiwan, if you're not picky about having a "license." As in the U.S., most people have only ever seen or used computers running M$ OSs and apps. Mac commands a measly single-digit market-sliver and Linux is for the hardy. Over the last six-to-eight years, just about everything O'Reilly ever published has been translated into Chinese, so most of the language-barrier problems have been overcome, but user habits and corporate/academic investments in training and software are slow to change. The desks of graduate students at my university are littered with books on ASP, not C.

As long as M$ tolerates rampant piracy and/or aggressively licenses its software (deep, deep educational discounts for example), Linux will have a hard time breaking into widespread desktop use here, unless it (ugh) looks, feels, and acts (double-ugh) just like Windows, and is just as cheap (!).

Me? Oh, I'm just waitin' for the day, but I ain't holding my breath. Users here--like ordinary users just about anywhere--want to plug it in and use it. The only real difference, I think, is that users here want to plug it in and have it work in Chinese.

Ah, but embedded though; that's another story. Taiwan out-gadgets the U.S. The market is small here, but we have this big neighbor just across the Strait....

Like they care?

[Spy der Mann]

There have been chinese copyrights over western religious icons. Chinese IP's are used for spamming. Chinese govt's don't care about human rights. They got a lot of pirate copies of Windows. And you think they'll be scared of patent infringment?

Puh-lease.

Oh I wish MS would simply ditch Win32

[gatkinso]

Seems to me most of the bitching about Windows is about Windows (duh). What I mean is the Win32 subsystem.

Perhaps this is simplistic, but MS could develop a GNU based subsystem (note I did not say "POSIX") under a modified GPL and run that on top of the NT executive. (Screw SFU that is an abomination.)

Shit - the baby is crying so I wil make this short.... but you can see where I am going with this.

What's so great about Windows?

[martinultima]

There's just one thing I don't get: Why would anyone want to use Windows?

Linux is:

• Free
• Open-source
• Relatively bug-free
• Virus-free
• Worm-free
• Stable
• Secure
• More powerful
  • Raw device access
  • Can work with any file system
  • Text or graphical mode
• Runs on a much wider range of hardware
• Prettier :-)
• ...

Windows is:

• Expensive
• Proprietary
• Buggy
• Virus-filled
• Worm-filled
• Unstable
• Insecure
• Nowhere near powerful
  • NO raw device access
  • Can work with any file system, so long as it's NTFS or FAT
  • NO TEXT MODE
• Runs on a much narrower range of hardware
• Uglier (who the hell would want to use "Windows XP style" or "Luna"??)
• ...

Where exactly is the advantage of Windows here?

(Oh, and Windows isn't easier to use either - I found that Slackware's text-administration tools and editing text files are actually much simpler and more straightforward than a slow, buggy, and poorly-designed graphical administration tool. And don't get me started on XP's "Find" tool...)

Re:What's so great about Windows?

[daniel_gustafsson]

"NO raw device access "

That is wrong.
Windows have raw device, it just isn't called that.

Re:What's so great about Windows?

[RikRat]

What is it called then?

Re:What's so great about Windows?

[chawly]

I surely don't know - but if anybody finds out, I'd surely like to know.

Re:What's so great about Windows?

[daniel_gustafsson]

Microsoft doesn't call it anything specifically, you just open the drive/volume/partition the way you open a file by specifying for example "\\.\PHYSICALDRIVE0". Others (customers/users of Windows) sometimes call it raw device or raw partition but I have not seen that Microsoft use the term raw device.

"because Linux violates about 228 patents"

[timlyg]

So? It's not unheard of. Why don't you pay Edison's family for the lights you use? You big whiner.

Doesn't IBM back Linux?

[walterbyrd]

I think that much of IBM's strategy is based on Linux. As such, IBM may step up to defend it's own interest in Linux.

I don't think msft wants as legal fight with IBM.

linux is ready for the average business desktop

[krayfx]

small asian companies are better off with linux, (with violating patents) than pirated windows, and ballmer trying to squeeze thier b***s for the same and trying to extract desperate pennies out of them! its here that intel and the rest of the guys can score - cheap linux for people who dont have the money - or dont want to pay money - or who dont care about paying - so linux fits in perfectly here. the only thing he has to pay for is the linux personnel who installs stuff. so if he wants frequent upgrades - the linux personnel benefits - most likely he wouldnt want one - so either ways people benefit. and there's a jobmarket at the low end for the guys who learn linux - this is quite easy and plenty of people already can handle most base installations as easily as windows. so i do belive there is a genuine case say in the next year or so - to go full fledged with linux. there's more than enough applications that the small businesses need. and everything for free - without violating any laws. ballmer says the governments are losing money by the way of taxes - but hey the government need not worry about foreign exchange going out of the country - tons of it - more than what they get by the way of taxes - so what peanuts profit does the government make by the way of taxes that he - ballmer's - talking about ? (well, not exactly talking , he was more than threatening people). thats good in a way. he's waking up people to the realities.

Misinformed

[Donny Smith]

Where exactly did you get that (mis)info, man?

Here are some thruths:

> I think we can all say with certainty, that any OS based on latin script, along with (still largely) latin based keyboards and paradigms, which dominates in south east asia, will lead only to a great wailing and a gnashing of teeth

Wrong. Linux supports Thai and other Asian languages including double-byte languages of East Asia. There's nothing wrong with "English" keyboards and scripts, people LOVE English in Asia. And it's easier to remember. And it's easier to search the web for "kernel make" than for "hexin anzhuang" as you get many more results.

>Perhaps what is really needed is for south east asia to develop an OS based on their written and syntactic paradigms, rather that a latin based left to right, 26 letters, scheme.

No, it's fine the way it is now.

> I hear chinese language support in linux is coming along. But what about the input issue?

What input "issue"?
Chinese has over 10 input methods, other languages are just fine too.

>The best thing Intel could do to win customers would be to try to develop such a solution

Yeah, right - for who? For AMD's el-cheapo system for Asian market? Why would they do that?
All they need is to make sure the Indian guys they outsourced driver writing do their job, and that Chinese manufacturers (actually Taiwanese, in China) know where to get those drivers.

Re:Haha they have Asian centric OSes already: Linu

[Anonymous Coward]

would you mind to name some?

Dvorak?

TurboLinux is what China uses for most of it's infrastructure.

IIRC Sun got a deal over there with JDS.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm hmm hmm well why? Its informative.

Re:Haha they have Asian centric OSes already: Linu

[Anonymous Coward]

would you mind to name some?

Neural uplinks, wetware brain stem jacks and autonomous AI VR constructs. Hell, last time I was in asia I freaked out the first time I walked into a bar and saw people jacked into custom cyberspace decks that projected ther disembodied consciousness
into the consensual hallucination that was the matrix. We are way behind in the US. Way behind.

"In his living room, he yanked the Ono-Sendai's jack from the face of the Hitachi, coiling the fiber-optic lead and tucking it into a pocket. He did the same with the trode set, then slid the Ono-Sendai into the jacket's pack-pocket."

Teaching Asia to use Linux...

[Rotund Prickpull]

...by teaching them that it isn't pronounced "Rinux".

Haithangu.

Chinese has character structure based input.

[Analogue Kid]

While they may have developed their own keyboards years ago, they no longer use those keyboards with characters on them because Chinese has over 10,000 character that would need to be represented and it was deemed slow and cumbersome. Instead they type using the "latin" keyboard in pinyin (which is the phonetic pronunciation of a written character utilizing only the 26 letters).

Apparently you aren't familiar with canjie Chinese input. It's based on the structure of Chinese characters. Each key has one strucural componet of a character. By typing in the components one by one, a character is built. When you are done, you hit space. Actually, this is faster than typing words in English. Many people type over 200 words a minute using cangjie. Some type over 300. I know the definition of a word is a little difficult to compare between English and Chinese, but a Chinese person who is good with cangjie can type a text faster than a fast western typist can type the English translation.

Cangjie is used in Mainland China, Taiwan, HK, and even overseas communities. It takes a little work to learn, but unlike pinyin and zhuyin it is equally useful regardless of what Chinese langauge you speak (Mandarin, Cantonese, Kejia, Minnan, etc...). Best of all unlike Japanese people who use their phonetic input method, Chinese who use cangjie will never forget how to write characters by hand.

BTW, nearly any keyboard made now will have roman characters on it. However, I've never seen one here without cangjie symbols. Taiwanese keyboards have a THIRD system (zhuyin fuhao) as well.

Re:Linux in Asia, already strong.,except Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

The United States government has almost 50,000 troops in Korea, and those troops' commander is a sock puppet for micro$$$$$$$. NUFF SAID!!

Errata

[StarTux]

I believe I read that Microsoft were denying ever making a threat...Either way threatening a market like that will only backfire. Would you buy from a vendor who threatens you?

Just hope the board of directors over at MSFT do not realise how much damage Ballmer is doing...

StarTux

uhhhh, whaaaat...

[Anonymous Coward]

Once more, but in ENGLISH please...

Typical slashdot FUD and propaganda is bad enough, no it seems it is being outsourced like so many other IT jobs...

Better colours

[Anonymous Coward]

http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/24/2 338212

Last option...

[Eric Damron]

"The question you gotta ask yourself (and the MS gorillas when they come a pounding threatening lawsuits) is why doesn't MS throw it's weight into the courtroom for all of their so-called infringed patents?"

Because the risks from IBM and others are great. Microsoft has made the decision to use patents in a different way. Their weapon of choice has always been FUD. They are calculating that Patents may be used most effectively by the threat of lawsuits. Far less risk and if people buy it they gain.

Like all of their FUD campaigns, this one will fail as well. People are getting wise to Microsoft's lying ways. But that is not to say that this FUD campaign must be vigorously fought to ensure that it fails quickly.

We also need to push to fix the broken patent system.

Re: Reliance on a US based organization.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think China fears having to rely on a US organization on having their "core" OS for critial operations and economic infrastructure.

Viruses, CIA Backdoors, and worms aside...

If they needed to do something they could most likely make Microsoft jump to release a quick fix on the scale of a few million dollars per hotfix, but I have a hunch they'd rather do it themselves than ever have the possiblity of that US Company having more loyalties it's own government.

I'm sure Chinese military planners and leaders have discussed amoung themselves of scenario with a war with the US over Taiwan or North Korea (heck I'm sure someone in the US Military has wrote a paper on a contingency plan as well, but I'm sure both sides hope this never happens).

Although this scenario is extremely unlikely, I'm sure they would rather have something homegrown or at least have ready access to modify and compile their own OS code than to ever face the possiblity of being cut off from OS technology (patches, upgrades, etc) due to a war or trade embargo with the US.

Of course if this ever happend I'm sure we'll be talking about different subjects on Slashdot.

Like making our own fallout shelters and air filtration systems.

Better name for "Intellectual property"?

[BroncoInCalifornia]

Please, please, please ... stop! The term "intellectual property" is not just stupid, it is harmfully misleading.

We need a better term. "Intellectual monopoly privilege" maybe. This is more accurate but it does not roll off the tongue. I am open for suggestions.

Asia will use Linux because it makes sense

[alwynschoeman]

Hi, I'm currently contracting in Asia and have always prided myself on my ability to infest the companies I work with, with Linux. Currently about 50 % of my 25 member development team uses Linux. I was quite proud, but... Yesterday I visited a company where the CTO, after another virus bout, just made an executive decision that everyone will run Linux. So now 90 % of the 160 employees use Linux. They save time and they save money and Linux skills are cheap in Asia. Its a match made in heaven.

Re:Haha they have Asian centric OSes already: Linu

[Anonymous Coward]

I work on English and Chinese on both Windows and Linux daily, and I can say that support in windows is almost flawless, while in linux (GNOME, I haven't played with KDE for quite a while) the support still has some glitches in some instances.

Granted, I'm using Gentoo on my home desktop and Debian on most other machines, so I guess my words do not precisely apply to the distributions released "for Asians". But last I checked (though was a few years back then) those distributions are no more than clones of redhat and such with chinese support properly configured. Their quality still doesn't appeal to me as on par with the mainstream distributions.

That said, eastern language support on linux IS possible on virtually any distribution provided you install the right packages and configure the system correctly. It has been available for years...

Dunno other parts of Asia, but in India

[popmace]

Most of the us(india) get our own machines when we join for graduation. If I remember correctly we all had dual boot systems(Lin+Win) and we never paid anything for that. In india, at least in the universities you can find
win:lin=1:1=pirated:free
**probably right

this was all over the news YESTERDAY

[museumpeace]

And Washington post did a better analysis but my submission was not accepted:

2004.11.09: Intel quietly pushing Linux to Asian PC makers
Quote from a story in today's Inquirer:
"...Intel, according to the Wall St Journal, is offering a package called Quick Start Kit for Linux to distributors which includes a number of software drivers to support a range of PC peripherals...."
The Washington Post's Webb's Filter[registration needed] column examines the significance of this move to Microsoft, which stands to be hurt if this development is the start of some trend. Sounds like a nice counterpoint to Ballmer's bomb to prospective Linux OEMing in Asia.

Indian languages ... :)

[Gopal.V]

IndLinux ... I'm going to their stall in Linux Bangalore 2004.

Oh btw, I would puke everytime I read the malayalam translation of "Retry, Cancel, Abort" :)

As far as I remember, I worked on the Pango module for malayalam.
I admit that I was young, foolish and caffiene enhanced sleep deprived when I wrote that , can someone throw that away and rewrite it properly ?.

I found the word C*man OFFENSIVE!

[lxt518052]

This word is extremely derogatory and insulting to all Chinese. As a Chinese, I found it offensive and unacceptable. It is like calling a blackman N*gro.

The joke is good, in fact, quite true in the sense that many Chinese are very clever in spendings as well as doing business as individuals. But even in that joke, the phrase "Chinese man" is used instead of this C*man word.

Re:I found the word C*man OFFENSIVE!

[Anonymous Coward]

quite being so outraged, it is suprisngly enough, just a word. if it didnt have the intent it wasnt derogatory or insulting. he didnt mean it that way, it wasnt that way. you only made it that way when you took offense.

words are just words.

Re:I found the word C*man OFFENSIVE!

[lxt518052]

I agree that he might not mean to be offensive. But the word itself is derogatory. I know it, you know it and he quite probably know it too. My point is that such words should be avoided because of the offensive nature.

Words are not just symbols. They carries meanings that can't be ignored.