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Windows XP Starter Edition Review
Digitalommm writes "Paul Thurrott has a story on the latest developments on Windows XP Starter Edition. There are some very good points that the Linux community could adopt. An example is end-user training videos such as how to use a mouse." This is an optimistic, even glowing look at the Starter Edition, which even for Thurrot was not available for unsupervised use, only demonstrated by Microsoft for him. (For using-a-mouse videos, I would suggest also Roblimo's book Point and Click Linux .)
For the new headless $498 Dell mini.
Please let me know when the come out with Windows XP FINISHED edition, so maybe we have a chance at something better
1. Position yourself under see through stairway.
2. Wait for skirt wearing executive.
3. Release mouse.
4. Peek-a-boo!
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Click here to find out how to use a mouse!
What? Eh? Oh.
This is actually be perfect for the great unwashed masses. Then they won't have to call in to my helpdesk and complain that "the internet is broken" and that they're using "Windows XL 7.0".
Yes, admittedly some people need to learn the most basic of skills, such as how to use a mouse. But the people at this basic level should not then be expected to know how to keep their computer completely up-to-date and patched, or even why that's important! Given how many problems have come out of MSIE recently and how most new users primarily want to use this magical 'internet' thing, this is a huge risk.
There's really nothing more reliable for support than having a friend who knows what he/she is doing anyway.
What's this "mouse" thing you're talking about?
... but wouldn't you have to already know how to use a mouse BEFORE playing those videos?!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
my grandfather is nearly 70 yrs old.
..and all i got to say is, he needed absloutely no instruction on how to use a mouse, computer ;)
..how to use a mouse, ..i've heard it all now.
i built him a computer to check his email with and run a small webserver with the "family dot com" as he says.
or anything else... sure, he fumbled with XP for a little bit. since then i've brought him to linux though.
but everybody takes time to adjust to the os for a little while.
also note, every community college, and adult-education center, and public library i can think of in every place i've lived,
offers FREE, yes.. FREE basic computer instruction for those who actually have lived a sheltered life
and have never seen/used a mouse before.
(and of course i have taken into consideration those who do live in extreemly rual or remote areas,
in which they may need a 'howto' on how to operate a pc.
but don't most investigate how to use one, BEFORE they buy one?)
for the price/time involved with making/watching such a video, why not provide a fool-proof "play/experiment area" mode of the OS where you can do any mouse movement/clicking and it won't permanently affect the computer system at all? of course, it will still let you drag, click, open, etc. but it won't permanently alter the files, system, etc.
afterall, the best way to learn to use the mouse is to actually use it, not watch a video. this way, a novice user can play with the mouse to heart's content without fearing "oops, the system is no good because i moved something" kind of a situation.
do food processor companies deserve the credit for providing a video on how to plug in the power plug?
Put a copy of Puppy on a USB flash drive and have it put up the Blue Screen of Death on bootup. Share the key with your friends.
EricHow to detect Internet Explorer
P.S.: Interesting experiment: put a Linux system on a key like this with a Windows-like desktop scheme, boot someone's PC with it when they're not looking, and see if they can tell if there's any difference.
A fellow I worked with once was sacked for something along the lines of 'to be an actual thinking person [you should be able to use a mouse.]' Seriously, it seems harsh, but rudimentary training isn't exactly a new idea. You can lead an end user to a manual/help file/training video, but you'll see them reach for that phone in a blink.
Besides, this starter editiion is to address piracy, isn't it?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"The product can run three programs at a time. For those families, this is exactly what they want. That's a great experience for them." Right... exactly what they want. They want to run Explorer.exe, Internet Explorer, Outlook, Wor-- wait, close an application first! "One of the big criticisms about XP Starter Edition is that it can run just three applications simultaneously, so I was curious to see what it would do if you attempted to launch more than three. In this case, the system displays a notification window telling you that you can only run three applications. The notification roughly reads as, "With Windows XP Starter Edition, you can run three programs at a time. To open a new program, please save your work, close one open application, and open the new application again." Nice work! And I guess the 800x600 max resolution is also "exactly what they want". Bah.
Yeah, well, the first VCR I bought (a Sony) came with an videocassette titled "How to set up and enjoy your new VCR!"
We (my company) bought a CD-burner back when they were an expensive novelty. It had an external SCSI interface, and was single-speed, and the drivers that came with it were on.... You guessed it, CD.
What're ya gonna do about it, nothing thats what.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Windows 3.1 had a very similar looking tutorial on how to use a mouse, if my memory serves me right.
Could anyone elaborate on this recollection?
Gamers Europe - Gaming News. Reviews.
The problem is Microsoft [like many companies in the software biz] doesn't promote many technical merits behind their software. They're more about "mind-share" than "tech-share".
But afterall, that's what a good business does. Only look short-term how to make the most amount of money.
Personally I hate windows not because I'm a l33t linux user. Or that it's cool to hate Windows. I hate Windows because it's fucking annoying. No developement tools, one desktop, totally exploited every 8 seconds, the kernel isn't that stable, you can't restart the desktop without rebooting, etc....
Rarely if ever do I have to cold-reboot my linux box. Usually restarting X will fix any problems [which also happens rarely] with the desktop.
That and I can hack the kernel if I want [which I have had todo once when cpufreqd was a bit whiny about my buggy bios having 2 PST entries]. Can't do that in Windows...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I am sure other people have commented on Microsoft's "let's remove functionality to reduce the cost" so that if anyone actually needs the functionality of XP Home or Professional they have to cough up more money! You don't have to be a Harvard economist to see what Microsoft is doing here. I hope the people of Malysia and Thailand see through Microsoft's crap and tell them to shove Windows XP Starter Edition.
i know it sounds archaic, but i have watched no-skills mouse users and it's quite serious. they:
1) play "hunt the cursor" because of poor eyesight and lack of experience with visual on-screen clues
2) hold a mouse with two or less fingers
3) move the mouse around tepidly and definitely not straight such that the cursor movement bears little relation to on-screen movement
4) moving the mouse around in order to locate the cursor itself.
5) let go of the mouse and watch the mouse itself not the screen in order to press a button on it - result: mouse moves...
the use of a mouse is something that is taken for granted. try using your mouse with your OTHER hand for a few weeks to see what i mean (if you are not ambidextrous of course).
try also upping the cursor accelerator and click-speed to absolute max in order to simulate lack of coordination.
and then: don't you bloody dare write another application with many-leveled drop-down and drop-sideways menus ever again!
Apparently to start the movie in which Windows XP Starter Edition teaches you how to use a mouse, you have to point your mouse to the menu, click it and then view it. Or you have to use your keyboard. So like for a person who knows nothing about computers, wouldn't that be a hard thing to do?! In other words, here comes another useless feature.
Anyone have anything to say about the technical merits, or lack thereof of XP Starter Edition?
Considering that no one has been allowed to play with it yet, and most Slashdotters would not want to waste their money buying crippled MS software, I'm not sure that we will now, or anytime in the near future, be able to have a meaningful discussion about the technical merits of XP starter edition. Please return to your regularly scheduled squabbling.
If Linux is ever going to conquer the desktop, it will take the effort of many dedicated people who not only have the time & the patience, but also obsess about the user experience of the aforementioned unwashed.
Unlike the average /. reader, the majority of people view the computer as a tool, a means to an end, not as a hobby and not as the end itself.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
The "Answering the critics" part (from MS) contradicts the reports (from MS) that people in these country (where this Windows is to be released) are replacing Linux with Windows (on PC sold with Linux).
I wonder how a great deal of the population do not know what to do with Windows (MS people assure you they have done the research for that) and yet are able to install Windows.
In Europe, people that know what to do with Windows do not necessarily know how to install it.
Strange thing really.
Usually I'd more than agree with you, but alas.. quote from the book review; "Roblimo's new book Point and Click Linux really consists of three things: the book itself, an included copy on CD of the Debian-based SimplyMepis Linux distribution, and a DVD featuring Roblimo's multi-part narrated video guide for getting started with Linux, Mepis and KDE."
Like pointing out that Apple used to include little games aimed at teaching you the interface, instead of videos. :-)
English is easier said than done.
The response from tech press and analysts was immediate and damning. Reports referred to XP Starter Edition as "cut-rate," "cheap," "crippled," and even "futile." All of those reports, however, are completely wrong. And it's a sad statement on the state of modern tech reporting and analysis that so many people could be so cynical about a product they have never seen and don't know a thing about.
And yet he wasn't allowed to USE it himself - it was DEMONSTRATED for him.
Yeah, that sounds a bit hypocritical. Ass.
AccountKiller
An example is end-user training videos such as how to use a mouse.
Hello, computer?
So in this case a book is definitely a better solution since even a moron knows how to use a book, though they might need pictures to understand it, it just wouldn't be a video. Which was sort of implied that everyone understands that a book and a video are not the same thing in the original post.
From now on I think you should steer quite wide of any discussion involving "technical merits" since you obviously don't understand anything technical or of merit. Thanks for playing though.
The Farewell Tour II
I just installed OpenOffice and I can't think of a single thing that didn't go as well or better than a corresponding installation or use of MS Office. This stuff really isn't space science, you just have to package everything with some care and knoweledge of what your CUSTOMERS, not users, not developers not those unpleasant people who talk to you, want.
As pointed out here in this thread, how about concentrating on the hundreds of thousands of users in the First World who, despite the (forced?) ubiquity of PCs, *still* don't know how to use them. This sounds perfect for my mom.
THis is why I could not stand the arguments like "Consumers chose MS with their wallets..." when the anti trust trial was going on.
Lusers do not know what Linux is or care. ALl they know is they bought a computer and want to plug it in and use it. Do they even know what an OS is?
I looked at the WindowsXP crippled errr starter edition in the link of the story. It is crippled regardless of what MS may tell you otherwise so they can get you to fork over $200 (alot of money in third world countries) if you want features like resolutions above 800 x 600. The users in these countries never owned a pc so they have no concept of features nor care.
My point is training video's will help users of course learn the os but they will only use what comes with their computer and nothing else. Installing software or requiring them to learn is too much of an effort. Many I bet wont even click the video's because that would be too much of an effort.
The exception would be a dos oriented computer which many OEM's like HP include in the countries that install the starter edition. Since dos requires the users to actually learn commands, most will find a friend to install WindowsXP for them so they can use a mouse with the nice pretty icons.
http://saveie6.com/
How many will forgo Windows XP Crippled edition and go with Windows XP Pro Sp2 Bittorrent Edition?
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Microsoft really has their priorities screwed up.
... like a modern, standards compliant browser that isn't full of security holes. Or an e-mail client that isn't the number one vector for speading viruses in the world.
There are so many things Microsoft needs to be concentrating on
Instead, they give us this crap.
How nice.
"For viewing videos, you recommend a book." The book includes a DVD with training videos on.
With most monitor (even in Thailand) capable of running in 1024x768 or higher resolution, the 800x600 limit simply is insufficient for most user needs, especially when web page designers have been optimizing pages to run in 1024x768 screens for some time. Giant icons eats up even more screen estates.
As for the friendier localized intro, this should have been done a long time ago, not just the moment of making crippled Windoze XP.
3 application limit is an extremely dangerous feature. For we know, it can be easily reached just by running web browser plug-in, and 'application' can include a control panel, a taskbar, or even a running process. Last time I checked, Windoze need at least a lot more than 3 processes just to function. Furthermore, it can enforce double standrads on counting applications. For example, it doesn't count multiple IE windoze as separate apps, but will count each opened Mozilla/Firefox window as one (or 2 if a plug-in is activated) application. You can bet M$ is using this trick to knock out competitions.
When I recall users who crashed a system by having 100+ copies of solitaire open, because they never closed a finished game, this makes sense. If they they tied the number into the system capacity, such as ram, etc. then it might even be useful for the US market.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Yeah, what a kissy-assy "review".
Headings like "Piloting (product-name) to success" should don't appear in real reviews.
Why can we never discuss TECHNOLOGY anymore? I'm sick of moronic discussions and flamebait OSS philosopy vs Apple philosophy vs MS philosophy.
Since when did that EVER happen. I got started on BBSes in the mid-eighties and back then it was all ST vs. Amiga, Atari 8-bit vs. Commodore, TI vs everybody, oh and Intellivision Basketball is MUCH more like REAL basketball. Don't you think?
I suppose much the same thing went on among sysadmin flamewarriors on Usenet.
Linux will never conquer the desktop. It's a poor platform for a desktop OS, plain and simple, and the efforts to turn it into a good desktop OS are too splintered and half-assed. KDE and Gnome change directions every other week it seems. There's little consistency, few truly standard and accepted APIs, etc, etc..
The way I see the future of linux, outside of the server room that is, would be in embedded and purpose-built distros.
Look where linux is commercially successful: TiVo, Zaurus, a plethora of PDA's and phones and such. I see linux evolving into task-based distros that do one thing, and do it well. Like MythTV or a distro just for a console-like gaming device, etc.
Each little distro can then focus on the hardware it's designed for, and the task it's meant to do, rather than trying to cram every OSS project under the sun onto 6 DVD's and calling it a "Windows Killer".
Gentoo and Debian will always be around for the geek community, but Joe Sixpack's exposure to it will probably be in the form of a TiVo or MythTV or Zaurus, or an Archos media player, something along those lines.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Disclaimer: I'm not a Linux zealot. I don't even use Linux.
But when I installed FC3 last week, the mouse certainly seemed to work ok. The three LAN cards installed themselves completely transparently at startup (in Windows I needed three seperate driver installations from three seperate cds), and the Audigy was blasting out Linkin Park as soon as I'd logged in for the first time (in Windows I was required to sit through an *hour* long driver installation, and a restart immediately afterwoulds).
In fact, the only thing I had to install was the graphics card. (Which, unfortunately, left a bit to be desired.)
"If you're speaking to an IT professional who rolls out desktops in an organization of 20,000 people and ask him if he would roll out Windows XP Home Edition, he'd say no," Wickstrand continued. "He'd roll out XP Pro or Windows 2000. But he wouldn't describe XP Home as crippled or say that it sucks. ..."
Why yes, yes I would call Windows XP Home Edition crippled, and yes I am an IT professional. Why, yes, our envionment does oave over 20,000 seats.
Does crippled==sucks? Not really, but please...if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, call it a freaking duck!
That's a pretty unfair comparision. If users don't know how to use a mouse they should never fiddle with do-it-yourself distros such as gentoo, but use Mandrake, Ubuntu o SuSE.
;)
My personal experience with using a USB mouse, despite all the criticism towards the way Linux deals with USB (what a dirty hack, etc), is actually better on Linux than on Windows. In Linux, I can unplug my mouse from my desktop PC and plug it in my laptop, and the reverse, and it will start working in a second. Silently and instantly. In Windows XP, the pointer sometimes didn't work, forcing me to unplug it and replug it again.
But I may have been lucky, who know
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
"Double click this icon to see the help video about using the mouse".
---- Take the Space Quiz!
Windows XP has drivers for Audigy, Audigy 2 and the entire Live series built in.
You sat for an hour installing Creative's little media player bundle of dogshit, which isn't needed at all.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
1. Plug mouse in
:)
2a. It works, all done
2b. It doesn't work
3. Reboot into windows
4. Open internet explorer
5. Go to linuxquestions.org
6. Ignore search function
7. Create the handle "liNux_gUy1032"
8. Find the first forum you see
9. Type message consisting of appologizing for being "a dumb n00b" explaining that "my mouse doesn't work" ask "how do I fix it?"
10. Get frustrated when the first reply asks you for some technical information
11. Two months later, tell people "yeah, I tried linux once, but it's not ready for the desktop.
12. Post experience on slashdot when the latest KDE is released.
I know you were joking, and I'm joking as well
You make the erroneous assumption that morons know how to operate books when it is quite certain that the lack of handling said books is a mitigating factor in their moronity in the first place. Now, if the Coors Light twins were fighting over the mouse in a commercial, followed by step by step instructions embedded in a pop song played over a Clear Channel affiliate, then you'd have their attention.
There are some very good points that the Linux community could adopt. An example is end-user training videos such as how to use a mouse.
Maybe that should have been along the lines of - "end-user training videos dissecting fundamental computer use" or something..
Perhaps the submitter was tryin to throw the ol 'wink wink nudge nudge' to the OSS community, explaining that someone may be using linux without prior windows / computer experience?
I don't know, it was a strange comment in the first place..
If Linux is developed by geeks for geeks, then which of those geeks actually cares if Linux conquers the desktop?
I can tell you one thing - the distro that does conquer the desktop probably won't be the one the "geeks" use. And the distro that conquers the desktop will have been published by a company who hires people to obsess about the user experience rather than wait for geeks to give a damn.
We "geeks" don't need to do or learn anything.
Just my 10 cents.
Apple provided mouse training in an application that was included in the diskettes shipped with the very first Macintosh in early 1984.
When it comes to catering to the home user, Microsoft is definitely catching up to Apple. Watch out, Apple--they're only twenty years behind you now!
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Based on the comments so far, I don't think anyone has RTFA. I have read all of the "crippled" comments previously. If you RTFA, you see that Microsoft was headed for a particular audience with particular needs. They are aiming for people with absolutely zero computer experience. They are also aiming at "cheap" hardware so that their target audience might have a chance of actually affording it. I think that we should give Microsoft some credit on this one. They are trying to hit a new market (yes, corporations are ultimately about money); and they are doing it with their users needs in mind.
I'm just wondering ,if they could turn the pc on, they could use windows :/
Um there are times when you can't kill a process from taskmgr. Other times they totally pwned the cpu time and you can't even open the task manager.
As for being exploited I wasn't talking personally. I was talking about the vast # of other users and the risk in general.
Just because you haven't been exploited doesn't mean you're safe. I mean the CHM exploits will go right through firewall and anti-virus tools if you download what you think is a valid CHM file., etc...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
First of all, while Paul Thurrott has from time to time said some nice things about free/open source projects (Firefox, most recently), the guy practically works for Microsoft and everything that comes from him should be filtered accordingly.
Second, this 'starter edition' of Windows reeks of artificial market segmentation, a la DVD region encoding. Users overseas that presumably can't/won't pay Microsoft prices for Windows turn to piracy, so they are offered a scaled-down (both in price and functionality) version of Windows in the hopes that they will choose to pay something instead of just pirating it. But consumers here in the US (including those for whom this starter edition would be totally acceptable, capability-wise) are deemed to be able to afford the full versions of Windows and are therefore not allowed to so much as REVIEW (including Thurrott, long-time MS puppet), let alone purchase this edition.
Something stinks...
We therefore request that you cease and desist all of the harmful discussion of mouse jokes and there ilk, or we will be forced to file a formal letter from our attorneys.
After that we may have a class action case for all of the emotional distress for the 600,000,000,000 mice in this world.
1) mostly because I forget where I left the cursor,
2) because it's comfortable (I hold it between thumb and little finger),
4) see (1).
My mother has a terrible time with a mouse, and does 3 and 5. I've found that a trackball deals nicely with 5, and 3 responds to nothing but more practice time than she's willing to give.
She's a touch typist, though getting rusty, and it's still quite painless for her to type mozilla &. Remembering that you finish up commands with an apersand so you can do this AND something else seems pretty painless, too. Finding the little icon with the lizard head, and clicking on it, is difficult, even with a trackball. A big part of that is that the name of the program is mozilla, not lizardheadicon.
The cli needs just as much training as the gui, but the basic skills for the cli are more likely to be present in seniors. The fast-twitch-to-double-click requirement of the typical gui is a real problem for old farts, too.
If you're going to have to train folks to use a mouse, consider training them to get by without, using their keyboard and tab, alt-tab, et cetera.
See what I've been reading.
1. Go ask in a linux forum
2. Get told RTFA YOU FUCKIN N00B! U R TEH SUCK!
3. You RTFA, to find out it's a decade old and deals mainly with Bus mice that don't exist anymore. There's a section on Serial mice, which doesn't help because yours is USB.
4. Return to forum, where you are told "USB mice are only for gay MS astroturfers like you!! Why don't you go have sex with Bill Gates you stupid fag!"
5. Say "fuck it" and just use the USB to PS/2 adaptor because USB support for linux still sucks.
Honestly, I've never gotten an answer to any question on any linux forum or IRC channel. The self-titled "linux gurus" frankly don't know all that much. When it comes to linux, if your shit doesn't work out-of-the-box, you're on your own for the most part.
Go read the CUPS documentation, which is basically a longwinded, insulting "Don't you dare ask us any questions we're too important" treatise.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Don't you mean "clueless newbie washed"?
- surely?
If you read the article you would realize that the Starter Edition is a clever, well-designed marketing juggernaut. This version is tailored to take the market away from the OSX's and Linux's and deliver permanent mindshare to Microsoft. Starter Edition is exactly that: the first baby-step for a new generation of MS drones, at least that's what MS hopes. It's shiny, it's simple, it's in their language. See how cleverly even the backgrounds reassure the Asian newcomer.
Anyone dismissing this needs to understand: it's just like xbox(n+1). They have all the stakeholders on their side now. Good luck competing with that.
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
Yeah, I rarely read the man pages. And I rarely post questions on forums either. I just search or browse forums. Just about every problem one can have with setting up linux has been asked and answered. What gets annoying is when people ask the same questions over and over. It never makes sense to me. It's simply faster to search a forum or use google to find a solution. My advice is to head on over to the gentoo forums, enter a search query, and look for a post with "[Solved]" in front of it.
Price. They're significantly more expensive than a CRT, and a good bit more than a flatscreen LCD display. That being said, I'm currently shopping for touchscreens for our store right now.
I don't respond to AC's.
Linux suffers from a serious "last mile" problem. There are tons of coders willing to write more code for fame and glory, but noone is willing to sit and do all the usability testing, all the polishing, etc. Because that's tiring, boring, thankless work.
Apple or MSFT can simply instruct their employees to do it. They have an incentive to do all the boring gruntwork that turns a bunch of lines of code into a good user experience: a paycheck.
For example, I installed KDE a few weeks ago, and there's a lot of good stuff there. But the way it set all the menus up out of the box was, frankly, moronic. There didn't seem to be any sense to it, it was completely unintuitive. Some items were repeated in just about every sub menu, others were impossible to find. The various dialogs and configurators and menus were anywhere from ugly to confusing to downright useless.
Some person, or group of people, need to sit and decide where to place menu items, how to lay out the forms, basically polish the GUI until it's on the level of OSX or Windows, out of the box.
Who's going to do that for free? Whoever does will get absolutely no credit, and will probably just get a lot of static and disrespect from geeks and coders who wouldn't appreciate any effort that doesn't result in new lines of code. Noone's exactly lining up to spend all of their spare time getting cussed out by a bunch of coders.
Linux just isn't a consumer-grade desktop OS, and I doubt it ever will be.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'm getting sick of this same old nit on the linux community. Someone else is going to respond with "But I set it up for my grandmother, blah, blah, blah..."
How much "time/patience" do MS Windows gurus have for the clueless computer users. I'd say that the linux community actually has some very helpful people.
And I can tell you that what MS is doing is similar to how they handle the education markets. Their goal is to get people hooked on Windows - to switch to anything else later would be a lot more painful.
Consider why MS couldn't just take a regular version of XP Home and add some handholding features without sacrificing others. Besides possible limitations of the hardware, what's the big deal? The big deal is that this software will probably be sold or bundled for $10, not $99. If MS started selling Home for less, other countries/institutions/companies would demand to know why they can't get it for that price as well.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
win-win? is that communism or something like that?
A couple of million more unsecured computers for hackers to break into and use. A couple million more computers that will be full of viruses and adware. Did MS make videos on how to procect from viruses and ad ware? probably not... And for the three programs only.. what a joke. Obviously this is just another scam so that once a user has become more familiar with computing they have to go and buy another MS procuct so they can have a real functional computer. woohoo way to go MS, leech of the poor as well. They probably even have an if statement that make sure all programs that are installed are MS products!
1. Pre-beta. Isn't that 'alpha'? But of course seeing the sleep-inducing buzzword-happy faux-cheerleading lead-balloon Office demo at MacWorld last year, what else could you expect with MS trying to make things 'simpler'.
2. "First, the company wants to make sure that first time PC users in new markets have the right product at the right price, on the right hardware, and with the right features. " So resell Mini Macs. ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H OK - that does not mean ANOTHER OS for newbies - it means you should have thought of this Day 1 and implemented it in all consumer editions. This is simpler?
3. 3? How did they decide this? He later states that most people want to do 4 things (including 'help with homework' - which isn't 1 thing...) Ya think maybe giving the same standing in the task bar for any open window as an open app is the real problem here? What happens when rogue apps eat up your three slots - you get a three step modal error message! Do they mean real apps or processes? Does systray count?
4. Great. They'll spoon-feed this to tech minstries in developing contries, where the anti-trust laws are weaker than US. All so people who spend 20 hours a week getting food and decent water so they can repel real virii can now spend untold hours fighting the electronic kind too.
5. The fact that your market penetration is 2% does not mean this is a pressing need in that population. How about The Gates Foundation puts a worldband radio in each home? That will do more to educate and connect people than a PC will ever do in places with lousy land lines. Suppose the Indian Ocean countries do get thast tsunami warning system they should have - what would you bet on - needing to check your email to see if a wall of death is coming later today, or a worldband radio with weather alert? Or see NPR's story yesterday on how clueless the Iraqis are about the more than 100 names and/or parties on their national ballot.
6. Choices, choices, choices. UI is supposed to be permissive & forgiving. Go back and read that sentence again. Now - "in Thailand, users complained that they didn't like the female voice in the help videos, because it sounded too much like a cranky, older teacher. They asked for a younger, friendlier-sounding voice that was less intimidating. So Microsoft changed the voice." Apple, with 1/10 the R&D of MS can somehow provide a dozen voices for use in narration - MS supplies one, then has to go back to the lab to rip one out and jam in another one?
7. Is there a Great Wall of Redmond? "One of the things our research has found is that some people like to learn by reading, while others like to be shown what to do," Any certified teacher - hell - any first year education major could have told you this for free. You hired researchers to figure this out?
8. "Thurrot" is apparently French for "Dvorak". "It's just too bad that the ivory tower critics can't see beyond their own insular worlds" - welcome to the Mac users' problem with this guy - condescending, throws out insulting lines like that often, and assumes that {{insert favorite MS product here}} product is superior and sees nothing but sunny days ahead, the rest of the world be damned. Let's see what happens in the trenches, and let's not forget Microsoft BOB, Windows ME, and Microsoft Works - all attempts at making things easier that were all things that hobbled good ideas instead of simplifying needed tasks and are now in the dustbin.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Um there are times when you can't kill a process from taskmgr.
This isn't to excuse that "nice nuance", but Sysinternals the have a bunch of command lines tools that help. They're "kill" command helps with the situtation you've decribed.
If they just used the command line, they wouldn't need to learn how to use the mouse now would they?
So you're saying in order to make windows effectively useful I have
- Install windows
- Go through lengthy SP2/patches
- Install DX9 [as seperate no less and reboot]
- Make sure all my drivers are install
- Then proceed to download mplayer, firefox, gaim, cygwin, hordes of coreutils?
And then up with
- 1 desktop [annoying]
- Still windows underneath
- Annoying paranoid of random files
Why don't I just use fucking Gentoo and remove Windows from the equation.
Gentoo takes all of a day to setup [even on a VIA C3 cpu which is a slow POS] is fairly easy to keep updated and is free to obtain.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
It's *probably* defined as 'three application windows at once' (I don't know, but it would make sense).
This may indeed be enough for many people; probably around 50% of the (completely non-technical) end users I deal with don't understand the concept of multi-tasking at all and always close a program before opening a new one (this happens when I am trying to explain to people how to copy an error message into an email, or check something in the filesystem - many think they have to close the foreground app first before they can do anything else.)
Of course none of this matters as MS aren't selling this to grannies in the US/Western Europe but rather are trying to undercut pirates in Russia/SE Asia. In this case the features aren't the issue, it's the price, and no matter how low they offer it, it's pretty difficult to compete with free. The only possible niche I can imagine is secretarial/clerical positions in companies that for some reason want to run legit software - perhaps local branches of multinationals.
No developement tools
Excluding things like gcc, which run under cygwin?
one desktop
Granted this is missing from the OS, but there are plenty of add-ons for that. This one is freeware: Virtual Desktop Toolbar
totally exploited every 8 seconds
uhm.. yeah
the kernel isn't that stable
I have yet to see the kernel crash in XP SP2 outside of hardware failure, which also causes linux to crash.
you can't restart the desktop without rebooting
Do you mean other than logging off and on, or killing explorer.exe in task manager?
Just because all the program's options are visible in a menu and big fancy buttons doesn't mean that it's easy to use. It's just easy to learn .
Being easy to learn is a big part of being easy to use. There are certainly other important aspects, such as being able to quickly and consistently perform common tasks. VI is a very useful application, and it is very powerful, but is is not very usable for the majority of people. By the majority of people, I do not mean clueless idiots. I mean people who want to edit text. VI's usability failing is it's failure to be learnable. Professional coders routinely ask on IRC if anyone knows how to quickly do X, coffee mugs are printed listing the most common commands. If a user has to break their workflow and consult a resource (human, online, dead trees, whatever) then the application is failing. If users only have to do this upon a rare occasion, then the program is probably pretty learnable. The thing is, most programs provide a great deal of functionality that is only used in very rare circumstances. Expecting users to research and learn before hand, and then retain in memory how to perform tasks (90% of which they will probably never do) is a huge waste of time, and is completely unreasonable.
Learnability is a large part of usability. Most users only want to learn how to do, what they want to do. Being able to quickly determine how to do an uncommon task is a vital aspect of usability. No one wants to read entire books, before they can perform simple tasks. If you think that is a failing of people, then I think you are very impractical and probably have way too much free time.
I seem to remember something about a registry hack a few years ago that would allow you to turn any windows XP installation (home, pro, server) into any other version by only tweaking the registry. If so, is it possible that microsoft got lazy (or is still so lazy) and the same trick can be used on this version to turn it into an XP pro machine without any of the limitations?
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
If Linux is ever going to conquer the desktop, it will take the effort of many dedicated people who not only have the time & the patience, but also obsess about the user experience of the aforementioned unwashed.
Not only would those people need to have time, patience and an obsession about the user experience, but they would also need to have
1) a great deal of knowledge about usability
2) the infrastructure (possibly funding) to perform usability tests
3) the leadership to organize these new findings
That last point is why linux will never be ready for the desktop. The programmers need to be required to add usability enhancements even if they don't understand and/or agree with those changes. This will never happen under a purely open source project. In open source, mob rules. That's an huge advantage for creating robust, multi-functional projects (well written applications with lots of features); but commercial companies have the advantage in enforcing usability requirements.
That's why BSD is for geeks, but Apple (Next) was able to create OSX from it. That's why Gimp will always have great features, long before those features have a great interface. That's why Eclipse will always have more features than IDEA, but will never be as user friendly. The GPL makes it unlikely that a corporation will ever put a serious effort into Linux's UI (although it's great that there are companies who put any effort at all into it - IBM, Novel, Sun).
NT 4 workstation could be changed into NT 4 Server with a registry key switch. I don't think that "feature" made it's way into 2000/XP though.
Back in 1996, I was working at a non-profit that had just received a huge donation for computers.
...
There was one old Spanish woman who simply could not manage her mouse. She had to hold it steady with one hand while clicking with her other hand.
I set her up with solitare and showed her how to play and within a week she had mastered the muscle control needed for one handed mouse work.
This problem goes beyond
#1. recognizing a mouse and how it controls the pointer
#2. understanding
2a. left-click
2b. right-click
2c. single click
2d. double click
#3. muscle control for using a mouse efficiently
For some people, these are very difficult concepts. Imagine if your TV volume control changed channels if you hit it twice, but only if you were watching a commercial (and if you're watching a car commercial, the settings are reversed). That's what it is like for people who have never used a computer.
The biggest problem is that the interface (keyboard and mouse) can have completely different functionality depending upon which app is running.
In Windows, right clicking the mouse brings up the background menu, unless you're in Firefox when it brings up the bookmark option, unless you're in Firefox and pointing at link and it will bring up the save link option, unless the link is a download where it will allow you to download the file and save it somewhere
Every time I hear people talking about "helping" people who have never used a computer, I think back to that old Spanish lady who would move the mouse with her right hand, brace her wrist on the table, then click the buttons with her left hand.
Even people in the real world still have problems with these things. A scammer called up the mom of one of the other guys I work with and said that s/he was from her bank and wanted to verify her account information, which she then gave to him over the phone. When she found out what happened she talked to the bank (which didn't do anything) and changed her account information. Then, she gets a call a month later from someone claiming to be from the bank saying that "we understand that you have been a victim of a scammer(?)" we just need to verify some details. It was the scammer again and she gave them her financial info again.
It's not just computers that some people have problems with.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
1. Go ask in a linux forum
Reasonable.
2. Get told RTFA YOU FUCKIN N00B! U R TEH SUCK!
Unfortunate but understandable. Lurk in IRC, freenode.net #linuxhelp for example - just a an hour or two at that, to why both "unfortunate" & "understandable"
3. You RTFA, to find out it's a decade old and deals mainly with Bus mice that don't exist anymore. There's a section on Serial mice, which doesn't help because yours is USB.
Part of the reason you run into #2 on your list. This should have been step #1. Agreed this does not address your immediate problem but it would curtail the childish responses because you tried to do something on your own time before expecting someone else to spend theirs.
4. Return to forum, where you are told "USB mice are only for gay MS astroturfers like you!! Why don't you go have sex with Bill Gates you stupid fag!"
No reason for this. I feel for you in the fact that yes this can actually happen.
5. Say "fuck it" and just use the USB to PS/2 adaptor because USB support for linux still sucks.
Hey - Problem solved! One of a few different ones you actually have.
Honestly, I've never gotten an answer to any question on any linux forum or IRC channel. The self-titled "linux gurus" frankly don't know all that much. When it comes to linux, if your shit doesn't work out-of-the-box, you're on your own for the most part.
I am in a minority group as I can actually read source code as well as make changes to it when the need arises. Both in kernel space and user land apps & libs; so being on "my own" is not a big deal at all. It is dishearting to hear you make these statements because not only myself but others I know, and many I do not, have contributed in ways directly opposite of that which you just described. True that your experience is definitely in the realm of happening and for that it is a shame.
Go read the CUPS documentation, which is basically a longwinded, insulting "Don't you dare ask us any questions we're too important" treatise.
Similar to, say, MPlayer? There is a reason for the arrogance. Not excusing it, just pointing it out. FAQ's for example come from a lot of frustration of answering the same things over and over and yet people will not read these either. Frankly your attitude, and other like it, are insulting to the people like me that are not like this. I say this because on occasion I have spoon fed the NOOB knowing that I shouldn't but also knowing there are way too many "self-proclaimed linux gurus" ready to pounce with a "U R TEH SUCK!" which is also just has harmful.
But hey, with every blanket statement is an exception. Generalizations in general are bad. Etc, etc, etc.
Linux isn't ready for the mainstream desktop*. My opinion and probably wrong. Linux is ready for people with a genuine interest in tinkering with it, learning it, contributing to it, and in general having fun with it. If you don't show that then yes I will concede you get a lot of elitism attitude for the most part, or call it what you want but agreed it isn't helpful. I strongly disagree that if you show the least bit of effort and any of the aforementioned qualities that people will act like a dick towards you though.
*Any more than windows is ready for the networked world. They both still do though...
BSD is designed. Linux is grown. C++ libs
Five minutes into the video, does the screen suddenly go black only for the word 'PWNED' to appear?
You must think in Russian.
please. giving credit for a training video on how to use a mouse is a bit off the mark. learning to use a mouse is beyond using windows or linux. it's basic computing.
You just reminded me of the star trek movie where they go back in time to get the whales, and scotty starts talking to the comptuer. Then thinks that the mouse is a microphone. Then actually understands what it is when it is demonstrated to him. For some, its not basic computing if you have never used a computer before.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
My XP CD definitely does NOT include Audigy/Audigy 2-compatible drivers, so if they've added them it's a recent thing.
Unfortunately, the CD that came with my Audigy MP3 is known to totally break Windows XP installations as well. You pretty much have to install the drivers (at the risk of a dead system) along with any extra tools you need off the CD (like the audio control panel system) then immediately web-update off the Creative site before rebooting.
If you reboot before upgrading the drivers, the XP install will end up so broken you'll pretty much have to reinstall.
I know since then they've released XP-compatible drivers in the box, but I was one of the unlucky ones.
It's a poor platform for a desktop OS, plain and simple
I'd be interested to hear in which way. If you put the gaming market aside, it is a very competitive desktop OS (and a significant number of administrations, offices and other organisms selected it as their main work desktop platform). Applications ? It has. Stability and efficience at managing resources ? It has. Connectivity ? It has.
and the efforts to turn it into a good desktop OS are too splintered and half-assed.
I suspect that you think so because there's no unique initiative towards a friendly Linux desktop environment - you have a several distributions, toolkits, or desktop environments to choose from, which can be quite intimidating at first. But there are Linux distributions specifically aiming at providing an out-of-the-box, easy-to-use desktop environment smoothly integrating everything you may want. Knoppix or Ubuntu are just two popular examples of that trend - trying to provide something coherent without too many compromises.
Each little distro can then focus on the hardware it's designed for, and the task it's meant to do, rather than trying to cram every OSS project under the sun onto 6 DVD's and calling it a "Windows Killer".
The goal of the distributions isn't to cram "every OSS project" on its CDs. Generalist distributions like Debian, SuSE or Fedora try to encompass most of what you can expect to do with a computer in the easiest way possible. And that's why things like package managers or networked installer CDs were invented: to make your life easier. Linux isn't a "geek-only" system anymore.
Finally, when speaking about "Joe Sixpack's exposure" to Linux and his possible reactions to it, you may want to give a try at this article (English version here ), where the author compared the ease of installation and use of Linux Mandrake 9.2 and Windows 2000 by letting his unexperimented wife handle it by herself. The result demonstrates that (at least for her) Linux was easier to install and use for her daily tasks.
A common mistake is to point at the case of people used to Windows attempting to use Linux and being "lost" in an alien environment. The only valuable point to take into account is how people who never used a computer before can find their marks under Linux. That's two pretty different things to consider, I'd say.
Well, I do RTFA. Believe me, communicating with linux zealots is the absolute last act out of desperation.
I've only appealed to the community twice. Once with CUPS/Samba, trying to get just *anything* to print on a "100% Supported" HP Deskjet. I eventually got it to print, and on the network, but everything was cropped, the drivers seemed to have no notion of margins at all. Meh. Three weeks of my spare time I fought with that, then I just installed an old copy of Win98 on an old P166 I had, and called that my "print server".
The second was trying to get Samba working as a PDC with an LDAP backend. So far as I can tell, despite all the talk of such things, I'm the only person in the universe who has done this. Eventually I figured it out for myself.
Both times that I tried to talk intelligently with some linux folk (I didn't just barge in and start shouting questions), I was just insulted and called a "n00b". Which was pretty retarded, because I don't know two many n00bs interested in a Samba PDC with a secure (TLS) LDAP backend because they want a single sign-on solution in their home.
For anyone interested, the whole thing wound up being the fact that SleepyCat DB likes to just all of a sudden randomly become corrupt. Even if you never write to it, and only read. One day it'll just get corrupt. You have to monkey around with some cache settings to get it to stay stable, and by monkey around, I mean there is (was) no information or hints as to what the right values would be. Trial and error.
A third time I was trying to get XBox Media Center to browse my Samba shares, and got nothing but grief and retarded answers like "It cant work with domain security blah blah". It works just fine with domain security, you just need to know how to set it up. And no, I won't tell you how. I had to spend a few hours figuring it out myself, so RTFA n00b.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Just to address that point...
.NET SDK is available for $0 and includes a C# compiler.
.NET tools and editors out there - just Google.
I guess you mean free (as in beer) dev tools.
Well, the
You can even get a nice, C# Builder IDE from Borland free of charge for personal use and there are a ton of other free C# and
The MS Visual Toolkit and Platform SDK gives you the command line VC++ compiler, free.
The OpenWatcom C/C++ compiler is an excellent tool and totally free of charge.
Additionally I have Perl, Ruby, PHP and Java, as well as gcc and the GNU tools (Cygwin) on my Windows XP dev box.
Not a bad set of development tools for zip really.
Back in the System 7 days, I brought my Mac home from college. It had come with an intro/tutorial on the desktop metaphor and mouse usage. My mom had never used a computer beyond text entry/searching on a dumb terminal at a library, and she found it very useful. I don't know why every computer doesn't still ship with something like this.
My wife bought her first computer 6 years ago (to send emails to me, heh heh) and often lamented that you spend all this money but don't even get a simple training manual (beyond how to physically connect it all) written for non-techie people. Of course, usage is often better demonstrated by watching than by reading.
Constitutionally Correct
blah blah blah. who cares if Linux (a kernel?) takes over the desktop? seriously, what do you think are the motivations to write software that is given away for free? i keep hearing this meme:
Such and such needs to change if you expect to take over the market...
wtf? get out of your capitalistic, money grubbing mindset. it is not about money. it is not about power over other people. everything is working just fine. linux may not be ready for the "great unwashed" right now. it may never be ready for such a task...
but that is not its purpose.
strike
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/25/registry_h ack_turns_xp_pro/
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
"Excluding things like gcc, which run under cygwin?"
Cygwin comes with a Windows install?
"Granted this is missing from the OS, but there are plenty of add-ons for that."
So I have to run Windows AND an add-on...[that doesn't come with windows, I have to find, install on my own...]
"I have yet to see the kernel crash in XP SP2 outside of hardware failure, which also causes linux to crash."
You're lucky then. Cuz I can find ways to make Windows boxes crash fairly easily. I usually onl boot into windows once every 50-60 days or so and each time I find a way to make it crash, hang, have an application lock up, etc...
"Do you mean other than logging off and on, or killing explorer.exe in task manager?"
That doesn't always work. For instance, switching from fullscreen DX9 applications to the desktop can lock up the mouse/keyboard so you can't use task manager, etc... And no, not everytime you try to logout the lingering processes die.
The point is though, if you're going to get all these addons and crap to make Windows actually useable why not just use Linux or BSD?
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
If you put the gaming market aside, it is a very competitive desktop OS
Sure, if you ignore the fact that it can't play games, legally playback or author DVDs, or DRM'd songs from iTunes w/o ugly WINE kludges..
The problem is, those are big reasons people buy a computer for the home.
When I say "the desktop" I'm not thinking of an office full of cubicles where some guy is just doing data entry all day, I'm thinking of home use, and computers designed for non-technical users.
If all you do is read e-mail and write letters, it's fine. But most people these days expect their computer to do more.
People see Mac and Windows users plugging the firewire cable from their digicam into their computer, and then author and burn a DVD-R that plays in their set-top box, and they want to be able to do the same thing.
And don't try to tell me about how easy it is to author DVDs under linux, because you'd be lying, and TurboLinux is still, AFAIK, the only distro that can legally play a DVD.
I've been using linux forever, practically since the day Linus announced it. But the way I see it, the gap between it and commercial desktop OS's is widening, not narrowing.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Unfortunately, it comes down to this. Linux is essentially developed by geeks for geeks, and, as a generality, geeks have little time/patience with the "clueless newbie unwashed" who need their hands held.
And somehow closed source developers who have little time/patience for even their PEERS are better? What crap, the thing that support people are sick of is M$ problems, not the users Microsoft likes to blame for them. Users themselves are sick of junk that breaks so easily and being blamed for the problems. If you want real attitude problems, look to Redmond.
M$ computer "support" comes from two places, people who help their friends and $50/hr phone calls to M$. The second group is famous for being as helpful as psychic friends network, but less friendly. The first group is dumping Microsoft and all of it's problems and insults.
If Linux is ever going to conquer the desktop, it will take the effort of many dedicated people who not only have the time & the patience, but also obsess about the user experience of the aforementioned unwashed.
Where have you been? Desktop Linux is here and it's easier to use than Winblows. Distributions like Mepis install in less than 20 minutes and run great. The kernel does the hardware detection, so the user does not have to read arcane manuals, feed the computer floppies and CDs and reboot six or seven times. Printer configuration through CUPS and KDE is likewise a walk in the park. The KDE UI is both more powerful and easier to use than Winblows' pathetic, single screen ugly. 99% of what normal users want is there by default, where M$ users have to visit a store and spend hundreds of dollars and get the extra pleasures of DRM, DLL hell and other nasties. Getting specialized software is as easy as a no cost click with programs like Synaptic or Kpackage. Most importantly, free software keeps working. It stays up longer, for those who care, and it does not get eaten by automated worms, spyware, malware and other M$ born infection.
Unlike the average /. reader, the majority of people view the computer as a tool, a means to an end, not as a hobby and not as the end itself.
The average slashdot reader is well aware of that. Those that want to keep their reputation for recommending the best now recommend free software.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The point is though, if you're going to get all these addons and crap to make Windows actually useable why not just use Linux or BSD?
In my case, I run Adobe and Macromedia products, and play games. Plus I develop apps for a living, and Linux isn't quite a honeypot of cash for apps, yet.
Quite honestly the process one has to go through to make XP 'usable' is quick and painless. I run a linux box for my home server, and my Masters thesis involved linux kernel development, so I definitely value the OS. But when it comes to desktop it doesn't make sense, yet. In the desktop arena Linux doesn't give me anything that justifies the sacrifices I would have to make.
You don't think Adobe would develop for Linux if people stopped buying their windows crap?
I mean for instance, if everyone who bought photoshop in 2000 just said "enough is enough, we have photoshop working now and the next one we buy must be linux" that you'd see linux support?
As for "usable as a desktop" well I run KDE on xorg in Linux [x86_64] and I have all I need to chat, email, browse, edit images, develop, etc...
Hell I even play games in Linux [I know, SHOCK!]!!!
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
What ever happened to the regular trolls like Goatse and GNAA that had creativity and intelligence?
I wrote: "When you open a new XP install you're not asked to set the resolution so this is an effective path to making the system easier to use."
Oops! I meant that it's "not an effective path..."
Nobody will tell anybody to shove-it. Who asks for clear Pepsi? No one, sir. People call it the "market," CEOs say they're "giving" people what they want, but that isn't so. They only say that they're "giving" people what they want, as if to sound charitable and wholesome, but it's after-the-fact it has been bought and now becomes a stably-selling product. Popularity has nothing to do with the product's... say... goodness, or healthiness, or efficiency -- overall, a prodcut's goodness is based on it's success... Let us face it, there are 261,354,653+ people in America who are going to buy that one thing once, maybe twice, maybe more... and that's real money.
People buy what they're selling. People don't ask to be made new and interesting things to consume. People are consumers, and petro-dollars, and telephone-answerers.
For example: Every electronics firm -- in the forthcoming context -- does this: Manufactures, say, a high-end home-audio receiver... then strips quality from various classes of its functionality to make FIVE cheaper models.
I like small, medium and large. Even more, I like small and large... if we got rid of medium, didn't stock medium anymore, didn't let medium ship, didn't sell medium, didn't package and label and administer the many mediums, didn't manufacture medium, and didn't bother researching the possible good-many-pronged happiness that medium would bring to our lives... small would go up a little in price, and large would come down... and in the end, it would all balance-out anyways -- both in the amount you've spent doing the business of consumption the previous way and in the new way.
For everyone: the less stuff, the less bullshit. You get what you pay for, so save-up for it.
Spoken like someone who doesn't actually do anything themselves.
Have you even installed Gentoo before? My guess and bet [I'd put money on it] that you never have. You probably didn't even pay for the copy of Windows you are using.
Cuz you can play the latest Quake3 clone that makes your setup more "useful"...
Well I got an xbox/PS2 hooked up to my tv tuner card. I can play any game I want while in Linux and not sacrifice by having a halfass development environment [e.g. windows]
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
6. Profit for Micro$oft!!!
Seriously, are you going to listen to a bunch of kids or middle-aged guys with no lives for Linux help? Search Google or another forum. It's that simple. Or read a Linux book. I know trashing anything intellectual is the rage but do it sometime.
vim termpaper.txt^M i What is a mouse, and how many Linux users would watch, or would need to watch, an instructional video on using one?^M ESC ZZ lpr term*.txt^M
(%i1) factor(777353);
(%o1) 777353
IE is "integral to the operating system" so it shouldn't count as one of the three applications.
Just install Linux dammit - don't buy this crap! Why should they be fed crippled software because they don't have the money to buy the full OS. I think it's insulting.
Linux does not have an "End User" philosophy. Just so's you know.
If you have cheap hardware, there is no guarantee that it will even run 1024x768 and even if it does, it will do so poorly. By merely giving users the option of changing resolution to something higher, you run into a chance of them having a nightmarish experience with the system. If you were developing software for entry-level users, would you be willing to take that chance? As for the rest of your comment: XP Home and Pro simply won't run on 200-300 MHz machines with 64MB RAM. Yes, they want those people to eventually upgrade, but not on the same machines, but when they can afford something more expensive.
I've seen this thing happen in the shareware market: CRIPPLEWARE. Oh, you can't save files until you get the registered edition. Oh, you can't print those awesome reports.
3 apps max? Window 3.1 can run more apps than that. Sheesh.
OK Bill Gates, tell me this is not a way to enslave more users and get them to buy "the real thing".
And yes, I mean in a polygraph test.
... side.
Now tell me what's the difficult part of it.
"How-to-use" computer videos SHOULD be on DVD or TAPE!
Training videos - nice touch.
Apple shipped an audiotape+software training package with their early Macs, in 1984.
Anyone else remember "mousing around" and the training-version of the Finder, the one with the Quit menu option?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It's a bitch to set up, but there are tons of people willing and able to help on the forums and IRC.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
Every community has helpful people. Every community has people who are impatient with people who don't know as much as they do.
The question is: Which platforms require the least help for newbies? It's not Linux.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I think having a black screen helps much better. Not only does it make finding your cursor much easier it's much easier on the eyes.
/.s theme but on any page I design I always use a black background.
Of course I'm having to look at a mostly white screen right now as I type this message because of
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
because mice are used extensively in bio labs. . .
I sort of figured that "Windows" and "Windows 3.x" would fit the bill there..... After all the US PC market was just catching on about the time windows was initially released. Maybe this is a case of "we learn from our mistakes" but I find it hard to believe that XP can run on a 286...
The defense is native language support and a bunch of edutainment about how to use a mouse. KDE, Gnome and OO all have native language support done by the natives themselves. Microsoft's inability to get their limited software translated is pathetic and underlines the inferiority of the closed source model. The stuff about using mice is not intuitive, as Paul noticed, but can better be taken care of by a decent three page manual, which should have shipped with windoze 3.1 but did not. Failing that, you would think the wonders of the free market would teach people and it does. Five minutes with a friend back in 1993 taught me everything I needed to know about mice and cutting and pasting in any GUI. If extensive user studdies gave them this starter edition, they really asked the wrong questions.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Ha!
:-)~ .... and admitting teh games were not all there at the time besides Zaxxon. :-(
My father was a project manager and brought home a $5000 IBM 286 AT with full 16 color CGA monitor while the rest of you had monochrome.
So take that!
http://saveie6.com/
I disagree. It's definitely not as easy to use as Mac OS X, and I've had more difficulty with getting hardware set up than on Windows (I installed Debian - I'm sure the hardware situation is easier on, say, Knoppix or Mepis, but I haven't used either), but the general UI is getting reasonably close to Windows XP in ease of use.
I think that Linux is eventually going to give Windows a run for its money - not this year, not next year, but eventually. Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird are great examples of free software that actually has a decent UI. Gnome and KDE keep getting better and better.
Despite much hype, Windows 3.1 did not have a useful manual either. Moving from DOS to 3.1 was a frustrating experience. I read the manual and it had nothing in it that made life easy. A friend took five minutes to show me a few shortcuts that made the thing work. It would have taking them one page of print to get those basics across, but their manual was filled with shine on instead. I imagine their goofey computer based tutorials are about as useful as that old manual. Where my friend learned, is a mystery, but I'll bet is was just someone else and that's the easiest way to spread knowledge.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I mean, you guys do it sometimes when you post stories... ("Foo is also owned by OSDN.") Either do it all the time, or none of the time... Otherwise, it just looks sloppy and unprofessional. Sorry. It does.
I like Macs pretty well. Use what you like. Teach people to use what you like. Be patient with new users. It's not that hard...
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
One of the earliest "how to use a mouse" movies, from twenty years ago: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/who/rob/movies/blit.mpg
(linked from
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/who/rob/).
While I agree Paul Thurott is an idiot, all the other reviews/commentary of Starter Edition are based on FAR less actual knowledge of the product than he had.....
That's a great idea. Would anyone be interested in starting a fund to get the Coors Light girls to do a "how-to" video on using the mouse to be made available for inclusion in Linux distros?
The Farewell Tour II
Yes, Fedora Core One is old. Winblows XP is ancient, what four years old now? I'm sure that chunks of XP are unchanged from fifteen years ago, so what? Using that crap is like a time machine. M$ can't keep up, is there a virtue to that?
But that was not an excuse as none was needed. The problems ESR had are mostly fixed and may not have ever existed in Mepis.
If you want to compare to a crippled version of "Winblows", go right ahead if it makes you feel better. It lacks what it lacks because it was designed that way, not because it's broken.
Actually, I compared it to M$'s best, which is broken, and thought it was stupid. I can't really compare this "crippled" version because no one, not even the author of this supposed "review" has access to it. That M$'s best sucks and they are trying to remove features to better compete is screwed up, kind of like the original poster claimed.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Check out this gem! This thing has Solitaire on the Start Menu!!!
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Why not make a book about using a computer? I believe in the past it was called a "User's Manual" or something like that. My dad's 386 laptop came with a manual for MS-DOS and Windows 3.11. Unless those Asian people are retarded in some unique way, which seems to me unlikely, I don't see why they would not be able to understand how to use their new computer with the help of a book. And they certainly don't need a different operating system for that. A different shell? May be. Different default setup for Word? May be. Different applications? May be. But a different OS? WTF?
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
I'll leave aside your claims that certain software sucks and focus on your complaint that Linux should "standardize" on a single browser.
Why?
What if that browser has problems? What if different users want different browsers?
How?
How would the community exclude a browser?
Also, the standards for browsers are enacted by w3c, not the Linux community. You seem to be confused between a standard and an application that runs by that standard.
Where is *Linux* Starter edition?
(and don't give me crap about Linspire. That's for people already familiar with Windows)
No, I want a linux equivalent to this Windows Starter edition.
Come one all of you linux activists, get on it. I'll contribute whatever I can.
No, I remember Red Hat 5 and 6 because that's my first distro. Back then, things took some work, especially the horrid hardware I used. They were and still are better than Winblows 98 in many ways though harder to use, but so what?
The free software world has continued to improve while M$ has been sitting on it's ass. Today's free software is superior to M$ junk in every way. Now as competition in the developing world, M$ puts forth this reduced feature set monstrosity? You have to be kidding me!
This crappy little distro from Redmond is going to sink like a stone. Only total shills can advocate it's use or M$'s sanity.
in four years we'll be having this nice conversation again
I doubt Microsoft will survive that long. If this is their answer to competition from free software, they are doomed.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I've been using linux for about six years now, mostly on web servers during the first couple of years. Back in 2001, I tried making Redhat 7 my distro of choice for my laptop and there was just way too much trouble getting all the drivers and devices working. Little things like copying and pasting between apps didn't work, and finally I decided it was just not practical to work with. Those days have come and gone, and both Gnome and KDE have left MS Windows in the dust. The level of configurability and eye candy that you get with KDE or Gnome is awesome! And take a distribution like Fedora Core and you can have a windows user up and running in a few minutes. At my company our entire sales staff uses the Fedora Core 3 desktop and they all like it.
You get up and go! You do it! Woot!
Great, works for you and I'm happy it does.
This doesn't mean that for the average user setting up a Linux desktop is easier than Windows or a Mac.
I've used all three and each has its merits. Sure you can run games (including some Windows games via Wine or Cedega) but it is just silly to imply that doing so is as easy as running them on Windows. The issues with video card drivers (ATI in particular) under Linux can be pretty serious.
I really don't think your argument about Photoshop is relevant. Adobe DID make a UNIX version at one time. I guess lack of demand killed it. Windows is a given because of the numbers and Mac is too because despite the small installed base a large proportion of users in certain industries (i.e. print and video) use Macs.
Maybe it will change and maybe there will be a Photoshop for Linux some day when the market demands it. The fact is most users place the function of the computer over aspects such as security or whether the OS is written crappily.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
In 1984, Apple really did revolutionize computers, and they really brought computers to the masses. At the time there were many people who never dreamed they would use a computer. It was a new concept, and caused a business explosion.
Today, practially any five year old kid uses a PC everyday. PCs have been easy, and then easier, and now IMO easy to point of being obtrusive. Think "clippy."
Maybe stuff like "clippy" is useful the very first time you use a computer - but it's obtrusive after that.
Yet msft, and others, are still trying to attract new users by making PCs easier to use. They don't realize that are past - way past - the point of diminishing returns as far as that's concerned.
"The issues with video card drivers (ATI in particular) under Linux can be pretty serious."
No this is exactly the point. I've bought several nvidia cards for various new computers EXACTLY because they go out of their way to support their users [not just in windows].
If more people rewarded more companies who display such good behaviour you wouldn't see the lock in.
This, of course, would also require customers to use at least a modicum of critical thinking. Just because it's 2005 doesn't mean you should rush out to get Word'05. First off, what's wrong with Word'04 and secondly why not give OO.O a try? [etc].
Also for all the new companies forming out there [of which there are 1000s each year] why don't they use OSS?
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Everyone knows someone who came back from a Asian holiday with a Asian market pirate copy WinXP CD, then it gets copied many times over by the networks of mates, & this happens thousands of times a day in Oz as thousands return from their Asian Sex/pissup holidays everyday with a couple of dozen pirate CDs.
Every single person I know uses either the Win XP Corporate edition (either patched using those weekend PC market sourced XP patch CDs that run a executable that loads all MS's Q patches except for the ones that fuck XP CE or re-registed using the XP keyword generator for SP2 upgrading) or the Asian market XP SP2 (that comes pre configured with no need for hardware activitation). I'd have as a guess that Linux on the desktop would be a tad more popular if such free XP Pro options didn't exist.
You got very good points there. But there are some things to clear out:
- DVD playback under Linux is only a problem in a few countries (Jon Johansen, deCSS author, has been declared innocent in January by the Norwegian Court);
- DVD authoring is perfectly legal in all cases. Not easy ? Projects like QDVD-Author now allow the same level of control and ease-of-use than the average Windows DVD-Authoring software. As with firewire digicams, I don't encounter any problem with those. Want advanced video editing from DV sources ? Things like MainActor 5 are now available. I'll not pretend you will find it easy - I'll just say that I don't find it hard.
- Again, iTunes DRM'd songs can be played legally in most countries; don't want those ugly WINE kludges ? Get CrossOver Office, which will allow you to install iTunes (and others) within a friendly GUI and without having to manually edit cryptic configuration files.
I perfectly understood "desktop" in the way you meant it - "home computing". And I certainly don't say Linux is perfect - that's very far from it. Nor do I depreciate Windows or MacOS - both are good desktop OSes as well. It is just that the "very poor desktop OS" sounds for me somewhat injustified.